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I 


REPORT 


OF  THE 

SENATE  VICE  COMMITTEE 


' : ■ C ' - V - 

_ \ ' ' ^ — ■ O vv\  ' ' \ 

IREATED  UNDER  THE  AUTHORITY  OF  THE  SENATE  OF 
THE  FORTY-NINTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY 

S A CONTINUATION  OF  THE  COMMITTEE  CREATED 
UNDER  THE  AUTHORITY  OF  THE  SENATE  OF  THE 
FORTY -EIGHTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY 

STATE  OF  ILLINOIS 


LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR  BARR  ATT  O’HARA.  Chairman 

SENATORS: 

lELS  JUUL,  Secretary,  Chicago  F.  JEFF  TOSSEY,  Toledo 

DMOND  BEALL.  Alton  D.  T.  WOODARD.  Benton 


19  16 


1 


r 


THE  COMMITTEE  ACKNOWLEDGES  ITS 
INDEBTEDNESS  AND  EXTENDS 
EXPRESSION  OE  SINCERE 
APPRECIATION 

TO 

Hon.  Woodrow  Wilson,  President  of  the  United  States, 
whose  endorsement  gave  national  scope  to  the  inquiry; 

Hon.  Edward  F.  Dunne,  Governor  of  Illinois, 

■^or  his  earnest  support  and  co-operation ; 

Hon.  Patrick  J.  Lucey,  Attorney  General, 
whose  assistance  was  of  inestimable  value; 

Hon.  James  J.  Brady,  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts; 

Hon.  Andrew  Russel,  State  Treasurer; 

Hon.  William  F.  Ryan,  former  Treasurer; 

Hon.  Harry  Woods,  late  Secretary  of  State; 

Hon.  Lewis  Stevenson,  his  successor; 

Hon.  Francis  A.  Blair,  Superintendent  of  Public  Instruction  ; 
Hon.  Frank  Higgins,  Superintendent  of  State  Printing; 

Hon.  Fred  Kern,  President  of  the  State  Board  of  Administration ; 
Hon.  Finley  Bell,  Secretary  of  the  Legislative  Reference  Bureau ; 

Members  of  the  Forty-Eighth  and  the  Forty-Ninth 
General  Assembly; 

Witnesses  Who  Testified,  many  at  personal  inconvenience; 
Delegates  to  the  Woman's  Legislative  Congress  ; 

Newspaper  Men,  for  the  fairness  and  accuracy  of  their  reports ; 

The  Managements  of  the  La  Salle  Hotel,  in  Chicago ; 
the  Leland  Hotel,  in  Springfield ; and 
the  New  Willard  Hotel,  in  Washington,  D.  C., 
for  many  courtesies  extended. 


3 


CONTENTS. 


Page 

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS  3 

EORTY-EIGHTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY 6 

FORTY-NINTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY 9 

HISTORY  OF  THE  INQUIRY 13 

FINDINGS  AND  RECOMMENDATIONS 23 

PRESENT  LAWS;  THEIR  PERFECTIONS  AND  IMPERFECTIONS; 

A careful  and  complete  digest  of  the  laws  of  Illinois  bearing  on  the 
subjects  embraced  in  the  Committee’s  inquiry;  together  with  an 
analysis  of  certain  decisions  of  the  Supreme  Court,  and  a history 
of  legislation  tending  toward  the  removal  of  poverty  and  the  im- 
provement of  industrial  conditions 57 

PUBLIC  MEETINGS  AND  TESTIMONY; 

(For  index  to  testimony  and  witnesses,  see  page  965.) 

Stenographic  report  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice 
Committee,  as  transcribed  and  compiled  by  Thomas  J.  O’Neill, 
official  reporter  of  the  Committee ; Corris  & Corris,  Fuller  & 
Meanor  and  C.  F.  Trick 129 

INQUIRY  IN  CITIES  UNDER  100,000  POPULATION; 

Reports  of  investigators  employed  by  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice 
Committee.  Summarized  by  C.  F.  Trick 807 

PUBLIC  OPINION  REFLECTED  IN  CORRESPONDENCE; 

Forty  typical  letters  presenting  matters  of  fact  and  judgment  from 
many  viewpoints 823 

RECOMMENDATIONS  OF  OTHER  VICE  COMMITTEES; 

A digest  of  the  measures  for  the  eradication  of  the  social  evil 
suggested  by  the  municipal  inquisitors  of  Chicago,  Portland,  Phila- 
delphia, Hartford,  Pittsburgh  and  Grand  Rapids,  and  the  state 
commissions  of  Wisconsin  and  Massachusetts 845 

PREVALENCE  OF  THE  SOCIAL  DISEASES; 

Statistics  on  contagions  *in  various  cities  and  arguments  for  certain 
radical  medical  reforms 875 

SOCIAL  EVIL  IN  FOREIGN  COUNTRIES; 

Report  of  an  investigation  made  in  July  and  August,  1912,  in 
Europe  for  the  Vice  Commission  of  Philadelphia 891 

COLLEGES  PARTICIPATE  IN  INQUIRY; 

A discussion  of  the  industrial  phase  of  the  moral  problem,  with 
many  authoritative  references,  by  Henry  T.  Rogers,  Jr 909 

WOMAN’S  LEGISLATIVE  CONGRESS; 

Several  hundred  representative  women  of  Illinois,  convened  in  con- 
ference to  co-operate  with  the  Committee  in  framing  suggestions 
for  legislative  action  demanded  by  the  mothers  and  wives  of  the 
State ; how  organized,  its  purposes,  names  of  delegates,  its  delibera- 
tions and  recommendations 933 

IMPORTANCE  OF  INQUIRY  TO  THE  NATION; 

Many  governors  and  legislatures  respond  to  Committee’s  invita- 
tion to  participate  in  co-operative  campaign  to  rid  country  of 
social  evil 945 

INDEX  965 


5 


FORTY-EIGHTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY. 


Convened  January  8,  1913.  Adjourned  Sine  Die,  June  30,  1913. 

OFFICERS  OF  THE  SENATE. 

President, 

Lieutenant  Governor  Barratt  O’Hara. 

President  Pro  Tempore, 

Walter  I.  Manny. 

Secretary, 

James  H.  Paddock. 

Assistants, 

George  L.  Carpenter,  J.  W.  Greenway,  William  A.  Compton,  Jr. 
Enrolling  and  Engrossing  Clerk. 

Fred  W.  Rinck. 

Assistants, 

Theresa  Baldi,  Marie  L.  Powell,  Harry  Rich.yrds. 
Sergeant-at-Arms, 

George  W.  Zinn. 

Assistants, 

Thomas  Pasley,  F.  W.  Benjamin. 

Postmaster, 

Adele  H.  Smith. 

Assistant, 

Gladys  Wom.ack. 


OFFICERS  OF  THE  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES. 

Speaker, 

William  McKinley. 

Clerk, 

B.  H.  McCann. 

Assistants, 

J.  H.  Hill,  E.  M.  Gullick,  A.  E.  Eden. 

Enrolling  and  Engrossing  Clerk, 

Charles  W.  Baldwin. 

Assistants, 

Michael  Sullivan,  Frank  McC.auley. 
Doorkeeper, 

Gus  J.  Keim. 

Assistants, 

William  Haines,  Carl  S.  Burgett,  Peter  Ettelbrick. 
Postmistress, 

Miss  Mollie  McCabe. 

Assistant, 

Mrs.  Henrietta  Vest, 


6 


FORTY-EIGHTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY. 


Andrus,  Henry. 
Bailey,  Martin  B. 
Barr,  Richard  J, 
Beall,  Edmond. 

Brady,  Francis  P. 
Broderick,  John. 
Campbell,  F.  C. 
Canaday,  Stephen  D. 
Carroll,  P.  J. 
Chamberlin,  J.  M.,  Jr. 
Clark,  Albert  C. 
Cleary,  Michael  H. 
Compton,  Wm.  A. 
Cornwell,  Willet  H. 
Curtis,  Edward  C. 
Dailey,  John. 

Denvir,  John  T. 
Ettelson,  Samuel  A. 
Forst,  Edward  J. 
Eranklin,  Noah  E. 
Glackin,  Edward  J. 
Gorman,  Al.  F. 

Gray,  John  H. 

Haase,  Christian. 
Hamilton,  John  R. 
Harris,  Geo.  W. 


SENATORS. 

Hay,  Logan. 

Hearn,  Campbell  S. 
Helm,  Douglas  W. 
Hurburgh,  Chas.  E. 
Hurley,  Francis  A. 
Johnson,  Henry  W. 
Jones,  Walter  Clyde. 
Juul,  Niels. 

Keller,  Kent  E. 
Landee,  Frank  A. 
Lundberg,  Carl. 
Maclean,  William  H. 
Madigan,  John  E. 
Magill,  H.  S.,  Jr. 
Manny,  Walter  I. 
Meeker,  Raymond  D. 
O’Connor,  John  M. 
Olson,  Albert  J. 
Piercy,  W.  Duff. 
Shaw,  Willis  R. 
Stewart,  Thos.  B. 
Tossey,  F.  Jeff. 
Waage,  Johan. 
Womack,  J.  A. 
Woodard,  D.  T. 


REPRESENTATIVES. 


Abbott,  Alfred  N. 
Atwood,  John  A. 
Baker,  Geo.  B. 
Barker,  Elwood. 
Barron,  Robson. 

Bell,  James  M. 
Benson,  O.  E. 

Blaha,  Joseph  C. 
*Boardman,  George  B. 
Boyd,  Randolph. 
Boyer,  Thomas  A. 
Briscoe,  Polk  B. 
Browne,  Lee  O’Neil. 
Burns,  John  S. 
Burres,  William  F. 
Butts,  Lucas  I. 
Campbell,  Thomas. 
Carmon,  Charles  H. 
Carter,  Joseph. 

Catlin,  Franklin  S. 
Clarke,  Maurice  J. 
Clyne,  Charles  F. 
Coldmeyer,  A.  H. 
Coleman,  John. 
Costello,  Edward  J. 
Crawford,  George  W. 
Curran,  John  M. 
Curran,  Thomas. 
Curren,  Charles. 
Devine,  John  P. 
Dickman,  Wm. 

Dillon,  Martin  J. 
Donlan,  James  M. 


Dudgeon,  Israel. 

Dunn,  William  H. 
Duvall,  E.  W. 

Elliott,  Robert  A. 
Elliott,  William  B. 
Etherton,  James  M. 
Fahy,  Michael. 

Fargo,  Henry  B. 
tFarrar,  Edwin  T. 
Farrell,  James  H. 
Fjnley,  William  E. 
Fitch,  George. 

Flagg,  Norman  G. 
Fleming,  Chas.  W. 
Foster,  A.  M. 

Foster,  Henry  A. 
Garesche,  Ferdinand  A. 
Gillespie,  Frank. 

Gorman,  Thomas  N. 
Graham,  Thomas  E. 
Graves,  Charles  S. 
Griffin,  John  D. 

Groves,  William  M. 
Grunau,  John. 

Harriss,  Judson  E. 
Hartquist,  William. 
Hilton,  Geo.  C. 

Hoffman,  William  H. 
Holaday,  William  P. 
Hollenbeck,  William  T. 
Hollister,  Thomas  H. 
Hruby,  Joseph  Otto. 
Hubbard,  William  A, 

7 


FORTY-EIGHTH  GENERAL  ASS^UBIN— Continued. 


Hull,  Morton  D. 

Hunt,  Roy  D. 

Huston,  John. 
Hutchinson,  Charles  G. 
Igoe,  Michael  L. 
jjackson,  Robert  R. 
Jayne,  J.  H. 

Jones,  Robert  S. 

Kane,  W.  C. 

Karch,  Charles  A. 
Kasserman,  R.  J. 

Keck,  Fred. 

Kilens,  Hubert. 

King,  Edward  J. 
Kirkpatrick,  R.  D. 
Kleeman,  Benton  F. 
Koch,  Fred  J. 

Lloyd,  F.  E.  J. 

Lovejoy,  Andrew  J. 
Lyon,  Thomas  E. 
Madsen,  Christian  M. 
Mason,  J.  M. 

McCabe,  William  R. 
McCarty,  John  F. 
McCormick,  Medill. 
McCormick,  William  W. 
McGinley,  William. 
McKinley,  William. 
McLaughlin,  John  J. 
McNichols,  Frank  J. 
McWilliams,  Lewis  S. 
Miller,  Ezra  E. 

Miller,  George  A. 
Mitchell,  Benjamin  M. 
Morrasy,  Frank  W. 
Morris,  James  F. 
Mulcahy,  Robert  J. 
Munro,  Fayette  Smith. 
Myers,  Geo.  W. 
O’Connell,  Daniel. 
O’Rourke,  J.  J. 

Pervier,  Clayton  C. 
Pitlock,  Joseph. 

Poorman,  Edward  F. 


Provine,  Walter  M. 

Rapp,  John  M. 

Richardson,  John  C. 
Rinehart,  Walter  E. 

Roe,  Arthur. 

Roos,  Frederick  B. 
Rostenkowski,  Albert. 
Rothschild,  Isaac  S. 

Rowe,  Wm. 

Ryan,  Frank  J. 

Scanlan,  William  M. 
Schnackenberg,  Elmer  J. 
Schubert,  Henry  F. 

Scott,  Charles  L. 

Shanahan,  David  E. 
Shaver,  Harry  L. 

Shephard,  Henry  A. 
Shepherd,  Frank  W. 
Sherman,  Richard  E. 
Shurtleff,  Edward  D. 
Simpson,  S.  Elmer. 
Smejkal,  Edward  J. 

Smith,  Peter  F. 

Snite,  Frank  J. 

Stedman,  Seymour. 
Stoklasa,  Rudolph. 
Strubinger,  Edwin  Thomas. 
Sullivan,  Patrick  J. 

Taylor,  John  H. 

Thompson,  Abraham  C. 
Thompson,  R.  R. 

Tice,  Homer  J. 

Trimareo,  Tony. 

Tucker,  Cyrus  J. 

Walsh,  John  P. 

Watson,  James  A. 

Weber,  Joseph  A. 

Werts,  Everett  L. 
W’illiamson,  Francis  E. 
Wilson,  George  H. 

Wilson,  Robert  E. 

Wood,  Chas.  L. 

Zolla,  Emil  N. 


*Elected  March  11,  1913,  vice  James  H.  Alexander,  deceased,  and  Michael 
F.  Hennebry  seat  contested. 

tSeated,  vice  Henry  M.  Ashton,  seat  contested. 

^Seated,  vice  H.  W.  Harris,  seat  contested. 


FORTY-NINTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY. 


Convened  January  6,  1915.  Adjourned  Sine  Die,  June  30,  1915. 

OFFICERS  OF  THE  SENATE. 

President, 

Lieutenant  Governor  Barkatt  O’Hara. 

President  Pro.  Tern., 

Stephen  D.  Canaday. 

Secretary  of  Senate, 

A.  E.  Eden. 

First  Assistant  Secretary, 

T.  F.  Russell. 

Second  Assistant  Secretary, 

W.  M.  Buckham. 

Third  Assistant  Secretary, 

Edith  Cleary. 

Executive  Secretary  of  the  Senate, 

J.  H.  Paddock. 

Sergeant-at-arms, 

Joseph  Miller. 

First  Assistant  Sergeant-at-arms, 

G.  G.  Lindblade. 

Second  Assistant  Sergeant-at-arms, 

F.  W.  Benjamin. 

Third  Assistant  Sergeant-at-arms, 

Walter  Bretz. 

Postmaster, 

Adele  H.  Smith. 

Assistant  Postmaster, 

Gladys  Womack. 

Enrolling  and  Engrossing  Clerk, 

Fred  W.  Rinck. 


OFFICERS  OF  THE  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES. 

Speaker, 

Hon.  David  E.  Shanahan. 

Chief  Clerk, 

B.  H.  McCann. 

First  Assistant  Clerk, 

E.  M.  Gullick. 

Second  Assistant  Clerk, 

Lewis  Vogel. 

Doorkeeper, 

Harrison  T.  Ireland. 

First  Assistant  Doorkeeper, 

Frank  Leonard. 

Second  Assistant  Doorkeeper, 

Lucas  West. 

Third  Assistant  Doorkeeper, 

John  P.  Maloney. 

Postmistress, 

Henrietta  Vest. 

Assistant  Postmistress, 

Mollie  McCabe. 

Enrolling  and  Engrossing  Clerk, 

Charles  W.  Baldwin. 


9 


FORTY-NINTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY. 


SENATORS. 

Abt,  Paul  W. 

Andrus,  Henry. 

Austin,  Henry  W. 

Bailey,  Martin  B. 

Baldwin,  Percival  G. 

Bardill,  J.  G. 

Barr,  Richard  J. 

Boehm,  John  J. 

Broderick,  John. 

Campbell,  F.  C. 

Canaday,  Stephen  D. 

Carroll,  P.  J. 

Cleary,  Michael  H. 

Cliffe,  Adam  C. 

Coleman,  Peter  E. 

Compton,  Wm.  A. 

Cornwell,  Willett  H. 

Curtis,  Edw.  C. 

Dailey,  John. 

Denvir,  John  T. 

Ettelson,  Samuel  A. 

Franklin,  N.  Elmo. 

Glackin,  Edw.  J. 

Gorman,  Al.  F. 

Haase,  Christian. 

Hamilton,  John  R. 


REPRESENTATIVES. 


Atwood,  John  A. 

Elliott,  Robert  A. 

Barker,  Elwood. 

Ellis,  DeGoy  B. 

Basel,  William  H. 

Epstein,  Jacob  W. 

Benson,  Ole  E. 

Fahy,  Michael. 

Bentley,  William  H. 

Farrell,  James  H. 

Bippus,  Frederick  J. 

Felts,  James  H. 

Boyd,  Randolph. 

Festerling,  Emil  A. 

Boyer,  Thomas  A. 

Fieldstack,  Charles  L. 

Brewer,  F.  A. 

Flagg,  Norman  G. 

Brinkman,  William  M. 

Foster,  A.  M. 

Brown,  William  M. 

Frankhauser,  E.  1. 

Browne,  Lee  O’Neil. 

Franz,  Charles  F. 

Bruce,  George  R. 

Gardner,  John  I. 

Burns,  John  S. 

Garesche,  Ferdinand  A. 

Burres,  William  F. 

Gorman,  Thomas  N. 

Butler,  William  J. 

Graham,  Thomas  E. 

Buxton,  T.  C. 

Graham,  William  J. 

Campbell,  Thomas. 

Green,  Carl. 

Conlon,  Bernard  J. 

Green,  E.  Walter. 

Cooper,  John  L. 

Gregory,  Charles  A. 

Curran,  Thomas. 

Griffin,  John. 

Curren,  Charles. 

Groves,  William  M. 

Dahlberg,  Gotthard  A. 

Hamlin,  Harr}'  F. 

Dalton,  Frank  R. 

Harvey,  James  C. 

Davis,  James  E. 

Helwig,  John  H. 

Desmond,  John  T. 

Hennebrv,  Michael  F. 

Devereux,  Thomas  P. 

Hicks,  H.  S. 

Devine,  John  P. 

Hilton,  Geo.  C. 

DeYoung,  Frederic  R. 

Hoffman,  William  H. 

Donahue,  Daniel  D. 

Holaday,  Mhlliam  P. 

Donlan,  James  M. 

Hruby,  Joseph  O. 

Drake,  Harry  W. 

Hubbard,  William  A. 

Dudgeon,  Israel. 

Huston,  John. 

Harding  George  F.,  Jr. 
Harris,  Geo.  W. 
Herlihy,  Daniel. 
Hughes,  Edw.  J. 

Hull,  Morton  D. 
Hurley,  Francis  A. 
Jewell,  W.  S. 

Keller,  Kent  E. 
Landee,  Frank  A. 
Latham,  Sam  W. 
Manny,  Walter  I. 
Meeker,  Raymond  D. 
McNay,  Charles  R. 
Olson,  Albert  J. 
Pervier,  Clayton  C. 
Piercy,  W.  Duff. 

Roos,  Frederick  B. 
Shaw,  Willis  R. 

Smith,  Elbert  S. 
Stewart,  Thos.  B. 
Sullivan,  Patrick  J. 
Swanson,  John  A. 
Tossey,  F.  Jeff. 
Womack,  J.  A. 
Woodard,  D.  T. 


10 


FORTY-NINTH  GENERAL  ASSEMBLY— 


Igoe,  Michael  L. 
Jackson,  Robert  R. 
Jacobson,  John  G. 
Kane,  W.  C. 
Kasserman,  John. 
Kessinger,  Harold  C. 
Kilens,  Hubert. 

Lantz,  Simon  E. 

Leech,  Wm.  L. 

LePage,  Stephen  T. 
Lipshulch,  Geo.  U. 
Lyle,  John  H. 

Lynch,  John  F. 

Lyon,  Thomas  E. 
Madsen,  Christian  M. 
Mason,  Joseph  M. 
Maucker,  William  C. 
McCabe,  William  R. 
McCormick,  Medill. 
McGIoon,  James  C. 
Meents,  Richard  R. 
Merritt,  Edward  L. 
Mitchell,  Benjamin  M. 
Moore,  John  Robert. 
Morrasy,  Frank  W. 
Morris,  W.  T. 
Mulcahy,  Robert  J. 
Murphy,  Hawkins  O. 
O’Connell,  Daniel. 
O’Rourke,  J.  J. 

Pace,  James  M. 

Perkins,  Edwin  C. 
Pierson,  Louis  J. 
Placek,  Joseph. 
Prendergast,  James  T. 
Provine,  Walter  M. 
Purdunn,  C.  A. 
Quisenberry,  Clifford. 
Ray,  G.  A. 

Rentchler,  James  W. 
Rethmeier,  Chris. 
Richardson,  John  C. 
Rinehart,  Walter  E. 
Roderick,  Solomon  P. 


Roe,  Arthur. 
Rostenkowski,  Albert. 
Rothschild,  Isaac  S. 
Rowe,  Wm. 

Ryan,  Frank. 

Ryan,  Frank  J. 

Ryan,  James  W. 
Sanlry,  Edward  M. 
Scanlan,  William  M. 
Scholes,  Robert. 
Schuberth,  Henry  F. 
Seif,  Frank  J.,  Jr. 
Shanahan,  David  E. 
Shephard,  H.  A. 
Shurtleff,  Edward  D. 
Smejkal,  Edward  J. 
Smith,  Peter  F. 
Sonnemann,  Otto  C. 
Stanfield,  Abraham  L. 
Stewart,  C.  A. 
Strubinger,  Edwin  T. 
Taylor,  Richard  F. 
Thomason,  John  W. 
Tompkins,  Squire  F. 
Thompson,  R.  R. 

Thon,  William  G. 

Tice,  Homer  J. 
Trandel,  Joseph  A.  G. 
Turnbaugh,  John  D. 
Turner,  Sheadrick  B. 
Tuttle,  Oral  P. 

Vickers,  James  H. 
Vursell,  Charles  W. 
Walsh,  John  P. 
Watson,  James  A. 
Weber,  Joseph  A. 
West,  Owen  B. 
Williamson,  Francis  E. 
Wilson,  George  H. 
Wilson,  Harry 
Wilson,  Robert  E. 
Wood,  Chas.  L. 

Young,  C.  A. 


11 


HISTORY  OF  THE  INQUIRY. 


To  the  Honorable,  the  Senate  of  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly, 
State  of  Illinois: 

Upon  taking  the  gavel  as  President  of  the  Senate,  February  4, 
1913,  Lieutenant  Governor  O’Hara  gave  expression  to  the  following 
conviction : 

“In  my  judgment  the  most  vital  problem  for  this  distinguished  body 
to  solve  in  the  interest  of  the  people  of  Illinois,  and,  in  a general  way 
in  the  interest  of  the  people  of  the  world,  is  that  problem  that  has  to  do 
with  the  chastity  of  our  women  and  the  sanctity  of  our  homes.  No 
observing  man  can  have  failed  to  notice  with  keen  alarm  the  growth  of 
an  industry  that  thrives  from  the  greed  of  men  upon  the  purity 
of  women.  So  appalling  has  been  the  spread  of  the  industry  of  the 
white  slave  that  it  is  receiving  the  most  serious  consideration  of  the 
foremost  thinkers  in  all  the  nations  of  civilization  and  the  conditions 
upon  which  it  thrives  are  being  studied  today  by  governmental  com- 
missions in  every  nation  that  makes  the  slightest  pretense  of  culture 
and  enlightenment.  “I  trust  this  body  will  begin  by  providing  for  a 
commission  to  study  conditions  relating  to  the  white  slave  industry, 
and  it  is  to  that  movement  that  I shall  devote  my  chief  energies  and 
efforts  during  the  next  four  years.” 

As  soon  as  the  presentation  of  resolutions  was  in  order.  Senator 
Beall,  of  Alton,  offered 

SENATE  RESOLUTION  NUMBER  25. 

Whereas,  There  is  a nation-wide  movement  in  progress  for  the  purpose 
: of  extirpating  the  white  slave  traffic,  so-called;  and 

Whereas,  The  senate  is  advised  that  the  white  slave  traffic  is  not 
yet  extinct  in  the  State  of  Illinois;  and 

Whereas,  Such  traffic  is  a stigma  upon  our  civilization  and  a heinous 
j crime,  that  strikes  at  the  very  vitals  of  our  social  well-being,  be  it 

Resolved,  By  the  Senate,  that  a committee  be  appointed,  to  consist  of 
; the  President  of  the  Senate,  as  chairman  thereof,  and  four  senators,  to  be 
\ appointed  forthwith  by  the  Executive  Committee  of  the  Senate,  and  named 
|i  by  the  President  of  the  Senate,  to  investigate  the  subject  of  white  slave 
I traffic  in  Illinois;  be  it  further 

i Resolved,  That  such  committee  shall  Investigate  the  workings  of  the 
j present  statutes  of  our  state,  dealing  with  the  subject  of  white  slave  traffic. 


13 


14 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


and  shall  report  such  amendments  and  additions,  if  any,  to  said  statutes, 
as  the  committee  shall  deem  necessary  and  adequate  in  the  premises.  Be 
it  further 

Resolved,  That  such  committee  shall  co-operate  with  bureaus  or  com- 
mittees appointed  in  other  states,  for  the  purpose  of  devising  a compre- 
hensive plan  for  the  complete  suppression  of  such  white  slave  traffic.  Be 
it  further 

Resolved,  That  said  committee  shall  report  its  findings,  conclusions  and 
recommendations  to  this  session  of  the  Senate,  or  if  not  practicable,  to  the 
Senate  of  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly;  be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  such  committee  shall  have  the  power  to  administer 
oaths,  take  evidence,  subpoena  witnesses,  and  compel  them  to  testify, 
compel  the  production  of  books,  papers  and  documents,  and  do  any  and 
all  other  lawful  acts  to  carry  out  the  foregoing  purposes.  Be  it  further 
Resolved,  That  said  committee  may  appoint  such  clerks  or  investigators 
as  it  may  deem  necessary.  Be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  such  expenses  connected  with  the  foregoing,  as  shall 
be  necessary,  shall  be  certified  by  the  chairman  of  said  committee  and  the 
chairman  of  the  contingent  expense  committee  of  the  Senate,  and  shall 
be  payable  out  of  the  fund  for  committee  expenses  of  the  Forty-eighth 
General  Assembly. 

By  unanimous  consent  the  rules  were  suspended,  the  resolution 
was  taken  up  for  immediate  consideration,  and  was  adopted  by  the 
following  vote : 


Barr, 

Compton, 

Hamilton, 

Keller, 

Aleeker, 

Beall, 

Curtis, 

Harris, 

Landee, 

O’Connor, 

Brady, 

Dailey, 

Hearn, 

Lundberg, 

Piercy, 

Campbell, 

Denvir, 

Hurburgh 

Maclean, 

Tossey, 

Canaday, 

Ettelson, 

Johnson, 

Madigan, 

Waage, 

Carroll, 

Glackin, 

Jones, 

Alagill, 

Womack, 

Cleary, 

Haase, 

Juul, 

Manny, 

Woodard. 

Yeas — 35;  Nays — none. 

The  following  senators  were  appointed  to  serve,  with  Lieutenant 
Governor  O’Hara  as  Chairman-; 

Edmond  Beall,  Alton;  Niels  Juul,  Chicago;  F.  Jeff  Tossey,  Toledo; 
D.  T.  Woodard,  Benton. 

On  April  25,  1913,  Senate  Bill  Number  156,  making  an  emergency 
appropriation  of  $10,000  to  the  committee,  having  passed  both  houses, 
was  approved  by  Governor  Dunne. 

METHOD  OF  PROCEDURE. 

At  the  initial  session  of  the  Committee,  the  Chairman  outlined  the 
method  of  procedure  in  the  following  statement ; 

“The  committee  has  agreed  upon  several  details  of  procedure : 

“First,  That  all  sessions — where  the  evidence  is  of  an  important 
nature — shall  be  made  public. 

“Second,  That  all  members  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  be  in- 
vited to  attend  any  and  all  sessions. 

“Third,  That  the  interrogation  of  witnesses  shall  not  be  confined  to 


History  of  the  Inquiry 


15 


members  of  the  committee,  but  any  member  of  either  House  of  the 
Legislature  be  privileged  to  ask  any  questions  within  the  scope  of  the 
inquiry. 

“Under  this  arrangement,  it  will  be  impossible  for  any  member, 
or  the  committee  as  a whole,  to  give  immunity  to  any  witness.” 

Several  members  of  the  House  of  Representatives  and  members  of 
the  Senate,  not  of  the  committee,  attended  the  sessions  of  the  com- 
mittee, were  accorded  the  same  privileges  as  the  members  of  the  com- 
mittee and  frequently  did  interrogate  witnesses,  occasionally  bringing 
out  facts  of  much  value. 

SCOPE  OF  THE  INVESTIGATION. 

From  February  28  to  June  7,  in  the  year  1913,  twenty-eight  sessions 
were  held  for  the  purpose  of  taking  testimony.  This  testimony  much 
exceeded  in  volume  that  offered  at  any  previous  governmental  in- 
quiry of  the  nature.  How  searchingly  and  thoroughly  the  committee 
endeavored  to  go  into  every  phase  of  the  vice  problem  brought  to  its 
attention ; how  girls  of  various  rungs  on  the  moral  ladder  were  granted 
hearings  [under  full  protection  from  unnecessary  publicity,  not  one 
having  her  real  name  revealed]  to  explain  and  analyze  their  own 
situations  and  experiences ; how  employers,  social  workers,  public 
officials,  preachers,  reformers,  dance  hall  proprietors,  educators,  labor 
leaders,  physicians  and  many  others  from  the  various  activities  and 
groups  of  the  commonwealth  were  heard  and  their  opinions  recorded; 
of  what  purpose  all  this  and  to  what  end  may  most  properly  be  seen 
and  estimated,  not  by  your  committee,  but  by  the  Honorable  Senate 
and  its  constituent,  the  people  of  Illinois,  from  the  testimony  itself, 
which  is  printed  as  a part  of  this  report,  necessarily  much  abbreviated 
but  with  no  alteration  other  than  that  of  brevity. 

Aside  from  sessions  in  the  cities  of  Chicago,  Peoria  and  Springfield, 
in  our  own  state,  your  committee  [in  compliance  with  your  specific 
instruction  “to  co-operate  with  bureaus  and  committees  in  other  states 
to  devise  a comprehensive  plan”]  visited  the  capital  of  the  common- 
wealth of  Pennsylvania,  at  Harrisburg — where  a helpful  conference 
was  participated  in  by  Governor  Tener,  Speaker  Alter  and  other  offi- 
cials— and  the  national  capital  at  Washington.  Here  your  committee, 
being  received  by  the  President  of  the  United  States,  Hon.  Woodrow 
Wilson,  later  at  a public  hearing  was  fortunate  in  obtaining  the  testi- 
mony of  many  distinguished  men  and  women,  representing  the  several 
aspects  of  the  national  viewpoint,  as  well  as  that  of  the  federal  officials 
having  in  charge  the  prosecution  of  “white  slave”  cases  by  the  United 
States  Government.  Your  Committee  was  materially  aided  in  its 
subsequent  work  by  the  information  thus  gained.  Without  an  adequate 


16  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

conception  of  the  scope  of  the  national  undertaking  in  the  extirpation 
of  organized  vice,  there  could  have  been  no  adequate  conception  of  the 
scope  of  co-operative  labor  remaining  for  the  state  and  municipal  gov- 
ernments. Nor  could  your  committee  intelligently  approach  the  pe- 
culiar vice  problems  of  Illinois  as  by  learning  which  of  those  problems 
were  general,  which  local  and  what  the  crystallization  of  the  trained 
national  thought  bearing  on  them. 

COMMITTEE’S  INQUIRY  EXTENDED. 

The  public  hearings  extending  well  into  June,  and  the  work  com- 
pleted but  in  small  part,  your  committee  was  unanimously  of  opinion 
that  its  report  could  not,  in  justice  to  the  problems  sought  to  be  studied 
and  to  the  Honorable  Senate,  be  presented  before  the  convening  of  the 
Forty-ninth  General  Assembly.  Your  committee,  therefore,  reported 
a minimum  wage  bill,  with  committee  recommendation,  to  the  Senate  of 
the  Forty-eighth  General  Assembly  and  reserved  its  further  report, 
under  the  option  accorded  in  your  instructions,  for  the  following 
session. 

Accepting  the  precedent  of  other  legislative  committees,  [and  es- 
pecially that  of  a senate  committee  of  the  Forty-seventh  General 
Assembly,  the  expenses  of  which  were,  it  was  generally  believed  prop- 
erly, liquidated  by  the  Forty-eighth  General  Assembly,  to  which  it 
reported],  your  committee  made  no  request  for  a further  appropriation 
from  the  Forty-eighth  General  Assembly,  but  confidently  looked  to  the 
Forty-ninth  General  Assembly  to  meet  the  necessary  expense  of  the 
continuance  and  completion  of  its  inquiry. 

Your  committee  authorized  and  instructed  its  chairman  to  con- 
tinue the  committee  headquarters  at  29  South  Fa  Salle  street,  in  the 
City  of  Chicago,  and  to  engage  the  services  of  investigators,  clerks 
and  others,  as  might  prove  necessary,  in  his  judgment,  for  the  satis- 
factory completion  of  the  committee’s  work. 

The  chairman,  in  compliance  with  this  instruction,  maintained 
offices  for  the  committee  during  the  remainder  of  1913,  all  of  1914 
and  the  early  months  of  1915,  devoting  a large  portion  of  his  time 
to  the  affairs  of  the  committee.  During  this  period  the  inquir}"  was 
continued,  through  trained  investigators  and  with  invaluable  results, 
in  the  cities  of  Galesburg,  Joliet,  Peoria,  Quincy,  East  St.  Fouis, 
Bloomington,  Rock  Island,  Alton  and  Chicago.  Too,  in  obedience  to 
your  instruction,  bureaus  and  committees  in  other  states  were  com- 
municated with ; personal  interviews  obtained  with  distinguished  dele- 
gates to  gatherings  such  as  the  International  Purity  Congress,  an 
organization  exclusively  devoted  to  the  study  of  the  problems  engaging 
the  attention  of  your  committee ; conferences  frequently  participated 
in,  and  an  unusually  heavy  correspondence  handled. 


History  of  the  Inquiry 


17 


Your  committee  was  largely  enabled  to  pursue  this  portion  of  its 
inquiry  through  the  public-spirited  and  extremely  efficient  co-operation 
of  Mr.  Charles  F.  Trick  and  Mr.  Ralph  Pope.  They  served  your 
committee  without  any  positive  assurance  of  ever  being  paid.  Mr. 
Trick,  luckily,  had  also  private  employment  during  most  of  this  period; 
but  Mr.  Pope  was  for  the  most  part  otherwise  unengaged.  Dr.  C.  C. 
Quale  also  continued  work  for  your  committee,  with  the  same  un- 
certainty of  payment,  and  is  likewise  entitled  to  a word  of  appreciation 
in  this  connection.  Mr.  M.  Blair  Coan,  the  chief  investigator,  whose 
services  had  proved  of  inestimable  value  to  the  committee,  was  com- 
pelled to  accord  to  his  private  affairs  his  principal  attention,  but 
nevertheless  rendered  every  assistance  that  his  time  would  permit. 
The  committee  also  deservedly  acknowledges  the  service  of  Mr.  T.  B. 
Scouten. 


WOMEN  PARTICIPATE  IN  CONFERENCE. 

In  your  committee’s  desire  to  submit  to  the  Honorable  Senate  for 
its  consideration  a complete  program  of  legislation  reflecting  the  best 
thought  and  practical  common-sense  of  the  people  of  Illinois,  within 
the  scope  of  the  purpose  for  which  your  committee  was  created,  and 
in  its  belief  that  morality  is  advanced  by  legislation  only  when  that 
legislation  is  the  embodiment  of  the  level-headed  common-sense  of  the 
people  whose  conduct  must  legally  conform  to  the  legislation,  and  with 
the  thought  of  ascertaining  the  practical  judgment  of  citizens  and 
recommending  that  judgment  to  the  Honorable  Senate,  your  committee 
issued  a state-wide  call  to  the  women’s  clubs  of  Illinois,  asking  (1) 
that  suggestions  looking  to  the  improvement  of  conditions  surrounding 
the  working  womanhood  of  Illinois  be  sent  to  the  committee  and  (2) 
that  delegates  be  selected  to  attend  a woman’s  legislative  congress  to 
be  held  in  Chicago,  in  December,  1914. 

It  was  pointed  out  that  in  the  opinion  of  your  committee  this  pro- 
gram should  include  two  classifications  of  bills ; First,  the  funda- 
mentally moral,  as  bills  aimed  at  prostitution;  Second,  the  funda- 
mentally economic,  as  bills  calculated  to  assure  working  girls  a living 
wage. 

Responses  were  received  from  practically  every  woman’s  club  in 
Illinois,  many  of  which  organizations  sent  to  your  committee  sugges- 
tions which  were  the  result  of  long  and  serious  study  of  questions 
confronting  the  womanhood  of  the  state ; and  practically  all  of  the 
clubs  indicated  a desire  and  readiness  to  participate  in  such  a congress 
as  had  been  suggested  in  your  committee’s  call. 

On  December  10,  11  and  12,  1914,  about  600  representative  women 
of  Illinois,  assembled  at  the  Congress  Hotel  in  Chicago  and,  being 


18 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


delegated  by  your  committee  as  citizen  members,  proceeded  to  the 
deliberations  outlined.  The  congress  was  naturally  of  an  advisory 
nature  and  the  organization  and  method  of  procedure  was  left  entirely 
to  the  women  thus  assembled.  The  Executive  Board  consisted  of : 


Mrs.  Harriette  Taylor  Treadwell,  Chairman, 

6220  Harper  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Ida  L.  M.  Fursman,  First  Vice-Chairman, 
4465  Kildare  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Harlan  Ward  Cooley,  Second  Vice-Chairman, 
5318  Greenwood  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Helen  Hefferan,  Financial  Secretary, 

6331  Harvard  Avenue. 


Mrs.  Ignace  Reis,  Treasurer, 
4436  Berkeley  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Alice  Dow  Allison, 

701  West  14th  Place. 

Dr.  Effa  V.  Davis, 

2314  North  Clark  Street. 

Miss  Margaret  B.  Dobyne, 

604  Tower  Building. 

Dr.  Anna  Dwyer, 

4438  Drexel  Boulevard. 

Mrs.  Chas.  Scribner  Eaton, 

5744  Kimbark  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Ida  Darling  Engelke, 

5231  Cornell  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Chas.  H.  Zimmerman, 

713  North  Central  Avenue. 


Mrs.  Joseph  Eish, 

1811  Prairie  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Andrew  J.  Graham, 

3340  Washington  Boulevard. 

Mrs.  Benjamin  E.  Page, 

Highland  Park,  Illinois.. 

Miss  Edith  Wyatt, 

4632  Sheridan  Road. 

Mrs.  Grace  Wilbur  Trout, 

604  Tower  Building. 

Mrs.  Maud  Cain  Taylor, 

5609  Wayne  Avenue. 

Mrs.  Alice  Bradford  Wiles, 
Riverside,  Illinois. 


The  digest  of  recommendations  appearing  elsewhere  in  this  report 
shows  something  of  the  scope  and  value  of  the  Woman’s  Legislative 
Congress,  which  sat  as  an  unofficial  part  of  your  committee  for  the 
three  days  designated. 


FURTHER  INVESTIGATION  AUTHORIZED. 

In  your  honorable  body  on  June  14,  1915,  Senator  Woodard  offered 

SENATE  RESOLUTION  NO.  64. 

Whereas,  The  Senate  of  the  Forty-eighth  General  Assembly  of  the 
State  of  Illinois,  because  of  a nation-wide  movement  in  progress  for  the  pur- 
pose of  extirpating  the  white  slave  traffic  so-called,  adopted  Senate  Resolu- 
tion No.  25,  and 

Whereas,  The  committee  appointed  under  said  resolution  entered  upon 
the  discharge  of  its  duties  and  has  faithfully  and  well  pursued  an  extensive 
investigation  tending  to  ascertain  measures  by  which  may  be  accomplished  bet- 
terment of  the  conditions  surrounding  the  womanhood  of  this  State,  and 

Whereas,  The  white  slave  traffic  continues  to  be  a stigma  upon  our 
civilization  and  a heinous  crime  that  strikes  at  the  vitals  of  our  social 
well-being,  and 

Whereas,  The  committee  believes  that  it  is  essential  and  expedient  in 
the  interest  of  the  public  and  in  the  furtherance  of  good  government  to 
continue  a most  searching,  scrutinizing  and  careful  investigation  of  the 


History  of  the  Inquiry 


19 


conditions  still  existing  to  a marked  degree  and  which  the  committee  in  the' 
course  of  its  labors  has  been  unable  to  complete;  therefore,  be  it 

Resolved,  That  the  committee  heretofore  appointed  under  Senate  Reso- 
lution No.  25  of  the  Forty-eighth  General  Assembly  and  as  at  present 
constituted  be  and  they  are  hereby  authorized  to  continue  the  investigation 
and  inquiry  into  the  subject  of  the  white  slave  traffic  with  a view  to 
recommending  and  reporting  such  amendments  and  additions  to  the  stat- 
utes of  the  State  of  Illinois  as  the  committee  shall  deem  necessary  and 
adequate  in  the  premises;  and,  be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  the  committee  shall  co-operate  with  bureaus  or  com- 
mittees appointed  in  other  states  for  the  purpose  of  devising  a comprehen- 
sive plan  for  the  complete  suppression  of  such  white  slave  traffic  and  other 
menaces  to  and  handicaps  of  womanhood;  and,  be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  the  committee  be  and  it  is  hereby  authorized  and  em- 
powered to  subpoena  witnesses,  to  administer  oaths  and  to  compel  by  sub- 
poena duces  tecum  the  production  of  books,  papers  and  documents  and  do 
any  and  all  other  acts  to  carry  out  the  purposes  of  this  resolution  and 
that  said  committee  shall  have  and  it  is  hereby  given  the  same  power  pos- 
sessed by  the  Illinois  State  Senate  to  enforce  its  orders;  and,  be  it  further 
Resolved,  That  the  committee  shall  have  and  it  is  hereby  empowered  to 
employ  such  assistants  as  it  shall  deem  necessary  in  furtherance  of  this 
resolution;  and,  be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  no  member  of  the  commission  shall  receive  a salary  or 
other  payment  for  his  services  as  such  member,  and  that  the  expenses  con- 
nected with  the  aforesaid  investigation  as  shall  be  necessary  shall  be  certi- 
fied to  by  the  chairman  of  said  committee  and  shall  be  payable  from  an 
appropriation  to  be  made  therefor  or  out  of  the  funds  for  committee 
expenses  of  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly;  and,  be  it  further 

Resolved,  That  the  committee  shall  make  its  report  and  recommenda- 
tions to  the  Fiftieth  General  Assembly  and  the  said  committee  shall  be 
allowed  its  traveling  expenses,  and  that  such  assistants  as  are  necessarily 
employed  shall  be  paid  by  voucher  certified  to  by  the  chairman  of  the 
said  committee  out  of  the  funds  heretofore  referred  to. 

By  unanimous  consent  the  rules  were  suspended,  the  resolution 
was  taken  up  for  immediate  consideration,  and  was  unanimously 
adopted.  Those  in  the  senate  chamber  at  the  time  of  the  unanimous 
adoption  of  the  resolution  were : 


Abt, 

Canaday, 

Ettelson, 

Hurley, 

Piercy, 

Andrus, 

Carroll, 

Franklin, 

Jewell,. 

Roos, 

Austin, 

Cleary, 

Glackin, 

Keller, 

Shaw, 

Bailey, 

ClifTe, 

Gorman, 

Landee, 

Smith, 

Baldwin, 

Coleman, 

Haase, 

Latham, 

Stewart, 

Bardill, 

Compton, 

Hamilton, 

Manny, 

Sullivan, 

Barr, 

Cornwell, 

Harris, 

Meeker, 

Swanson, 

Boehm, 

Curtis, 

Herlihy, 

McNay, 

Tossey, 

Broderick, 

Dailey, 

Hughes, 

Olson, 

Womack, 

Campbell, 

Denvir, 

Hull. 

Pervier, 

Woodard. 

Your  committee  then  met,  reorganized,  accepted  the  records  and 
wbrk  of  the  corptnittee  created  by  the  senate  of  the  Forty-eighth  Gen- 
eral Assembly,  and  elected  Lieutenant  Governor  O’Hara  chairman 
with  power  to  act. 


20 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


On  June  9 the  senate  voted  to  amend  House  Bill  Number  975 
to  include  a special  appropriation  of  $10,000  for  your  committee.  Those 
voting  for  the  bill  thus  amended  were : 


Abt, 

Canaday, 

Franklin, 

Hurley, 

Pervier. 

Austin, 

Carroll, 

Glackin, 

Keller, 

Piercy, 

Bailey, 

Cliffe, 

Gorman, 

Landee, 

Roos, 

Baldwin, 

Coleman, 

Hamilton, 

Latham, 

Shaw, 

Bardill, 

Curtis, 

Harris, 

Manny, 

Sullivan, 

Barr, 

Dailey, 

Herlihy, 

Meeker, 

McNay, 

Swanson, 

Boehm, 

Denvir, 

Hughes, 

Tossey, 

Broderick, 

Ettelson, 

Hull, 

Olson, 

Womack. 

The  amendment,  however,  was  not  pushed  on  the  house  side,  and 
the  funds  necessary  for  the  completion  of  your  committee’s  labors 
were  drawn  from  the  general  committee  expense  fund,  as  authorized 
by  the  Honorable  Senate  in  Senate  Resolution  Number  64,  this  fund 
being  that  created  by 

SENATE  BILL  NUMBER  438.  APPROVED  JUNE  16,  1915. 

An  Act  making  an  appropriation  to  pay  the  expenses  of  the  com- 
mittees of  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly. 

Section  1.  Be  it  enacted  by  the  people  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  repre- 
sented in  the  General  Assembly;  That  there  be  and  is  hereby  appropriated 
the  sum  of  fifty  thousand  ($50,000)  dollars,  or  as  much  thereof  as  may  be 
necessary  to  pay  the  expenses  of  the  committees  of  the  Fortj'-ninth 
General  Assembly. 

2.  The  auditor  of  public  accounts  is  hereby  authorized  and  directed 
to  draw  his  warrant  upon  the  state  treasurer  for  the  sum  herein  specified, 
upon  presentation  of  proper  vouchers  certified  by  the  chairman  of  the 
committee  incurring  the  expense  and  the  presiding  officer  of  that  branch 
of  the  General  Assembly  appointing  the  committee. 

3.  The  appropriation  above  recited  is  necessary  for  the  payment  of 
the  expenses  of  the  committees  of  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly  now 
being  incurred  in  the  transaction  of  business  assigned  to  said  committees. 
Therefore,  an  emergency  exists,  and  this  act  shall  take  effect  from  and  after 
its  passage. 


This  bill 
atively : 

passed  the  senate  with  the  following  senators 

voting  affirm- 

Abt. 

Canaday, 

Ettelson, 

Hull. 

Piercy, 

Andrus, 

Carroll, 

Franklin, 

Jewell, 

Roos. 

Austin, 

Cleary, 

Glackin. 

Keller, 

Smith. 

Bailey, 

Cliffe, 

Gorman, 

Landee, 

Stewart. 

Baldwin, 

Coleman, 

Haase 

Latham, 

Sullivan, 

Bardill, 

Compton, 

Hamilton, 

Meeker, 

Swanson. 

Barr, 

Curtis, 

Harris, 

AIcNay, 

Womack. 

Boehm. 

Campbell, 

Dailey, 

Denvir, 

Herlihy, 

Hughes, 

Olson, 

Pervier, 

Woodard. 

CHANGES  IN  CONDITIONS  STUDIED. 

Your  committee,  in  obedience  to  your  instructions,  prepared  to 
continue  a most  careful  and  searching  inquiry  into  many  angles  of  the 
white  slave  industry  that,  in  the  judgment  of  your  committee,  urgently 


History  of  the  Inquiry 


21 


demanded  immediate  investigation.  In  September,  a public  hearing 
was  held  in  the  city  of  Alton  and  similiar  hearings  were  scheduled  in 
other  cities  previously  visited  by  the  secret  operatives  in  the  service  of 
your  committee. 

Two  important  changes  had  taken  place  in  Illinois,  since  your  com- 
mittee started  its  labor  in  the  early  months  of  the  year  1913,  changes 
effected  partly  through  the  efforts  of  your  committee,  partly  through 
the  agitation  aroused  by  its  activities,  and  partly  through  the  untiring 
endeavors  of  other  individuals  and  agencies  quite  unassociated  with 
your  committee  and  the  General  Assembly. 

1.  Licensed  segregation  had  been  almost  entirely  eliminated  from 
Illinois. 

2.  Industrial  conditions  had  improved ; many  thousands  of  working 
girls  in  Illinois  were  being  paid  more  nearly  a living  wage  than  at  the 
beginning  of  your  committee’s  inquiry. 

To  what  extent  wages  had  been  increased  in  some  lines  of  female 
employment,  and  why  they  had  remained  cruelly  stationary — cruelly 
below  the  “bare  cost  of  existence”- — in  other  lines,  was  a subject 
of  fresh  inquiry  well  within  the  scope  of  your  committee’s  authority, 
it  was  thought;  and  your  committee  found  no  disagreement  at  all  to 
its  proposed  program  of  ascertaining  the  effects,  immediate  and 
remote,  of  the  removal  of  the  segregated  districts  in  Alton,  Springfield, 
Peoria  and  other  Illinois  municipalities.  The  old,  old  cry  that  the 
elimination  of  vice  segregation  scattered  vice  through  the  home  dis- 
tricts seemed  to  your  committee  on  the  threshold  of  positive  proof  or 
disproof  in  the  gathering  of  statistical  and  other  undisputable  evidence 
in  those  cities  of  Illinois  where  the  ban  had  but  newly  been  placed  and 
the  doors  of  licensed  vice  just  padlocked. 

CONCLUSION  OF  THE  INQUIRY. 

On  November  6,  1915,  the  Supreme  Court  of  Illinois  rendered  an 
opinion  in  the  case  of  Fergus  v.  Russel  et  ah,  part  of  which  follows : 

With  the  sine  die  adjournment  of  the  legislature  all  its  functions  as  a 
legislative  body  cease.  During  the  sessions  of  the  legislature  either  house 
may  appoint  separate  committees,  and  the  two  houses,  acting  concurrently, 
may  appoint  joint  committees  for  any  proper  purpose,  which  may  exercise 
such  powers  as  the  house  or  houses  appointing  them  may  lawfully  dele- 
gate or  impose.  As  all  the  powers  of  the  legislature,  as  such,  cease  upon 
its  final  adjournment,  it  must  follow  that  all  the  powers  which  have  been 
delegated  by  it,  or  either  house  thereof,  to  a committee  by  mere  resolu- 
tion cease  also.  Such  committees  may  be  appointed,  and  they  may  act  and 
may  lay  before  the  succeeding  General  Assembly  the  result  of  their  in- 
vestigations, but  in  so  doing  they  are  acting  under  no  authority  but  by 
mere  request,  and  they  have  no  authority  delegated  to  them  which  they 
may  exercise. 


22  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

The  Supreme  Court  added : 

We  are  not  unmindful  of  the  fact  that  for  many  years  it  has  been  the 
practice  of  the  legislature  of  this  state,  and  of  each  house  thereof,  to  thus 
appoint,  by  joint  or  separate  resolutions,  committees  to  act  after  the 
session  of  the  legislature  had  ended,  but  we  have  never  been  called  upon 
to  determine  the  validity  of  such  action. 

Therefore,  conforming  to  the  spirit  as  well  as  the  letter  of  the 
decision  of  the  highest  court  of  the  state,  your  committee  respectfully 
begs  leave  here  to  conclude  its  labors  and  to  make  report  of  its  inquiiy", 
its  studies  and  its  findings,  which,  necessarily  incomplete  in  some  parts, 
will  be  found  in  the  following  pages. 


January  i8,  ipi6. 


FINDINGS  OF  THE  COMMITTEE. 


Your  Committee  finds: 

(1)  That  poverty  is  the  principal  cause,  direct  and 
indirect,  of  prostitution. 

To  avoid  this  conclusion,  is  to  quibble.  Not  to  recognize  it,  is  to 
approach,  blinded,  the  problem  of  the  ages.  However  distasteful  we 
may  feel  the  admission  that  woman’s  virtue,  worshipped  by  man  as  an 
attribute  of  divinity,  is  in  reality  a human  quality,  subject  to  human 
stresses,  we  must  begin  with  that  premise,  or  immediately  fall  into 
scientific  error.  If  the  Twentieth  century  is  to  offer  solution  to  this,  as 
the  Nineteenth  century  gave  solution  to  plagues  of  contagious  dis- 
eases; superstition  and  prejudice,  consideration  for  the  niceties  of 
persons  who  would  be  informed  only  what  they  wish  things  to  be,  and 
a habit  of  slipping  by  causes  and  dealing  with  effects  must  give  way 
in  the  treatment  of  prostitution  as  previously  they  did  in  the  treat- 
ment of  yellow  fever  and  diphtheria. 

Strangely,  there  has  been  no  disagreement  in  fact  among  the  many 
individuals  and  commissions  that  have  made  study  of  the  problem. 
There  has  been  much  disagreement  in  language,  in  the  degree  of  direct- 
ness, in  the  manner  of  presentment;  much  effort  to  cover  up,  to 
soften,  to  explain  and  to  apologize ; as  though  it  were  excessively  im- 
proper bluntly  to  confess  our  civilization  responsible  for  prostitution 
for  mere  failure  to  remove  poverty.  Yet,  whether  encased  in  mass  of 
argument  of  effects  that  are  twisted  from  the  logical  arrangement  to 
be  placed  in  priority  to  the  cause,  or  presented  with  abashment  and 
half-heartedly,  or  given  directly  and  frankly,  the  conclusions  of  all 
are  alike.  One  blames  Man,  not  economics ; but  forthwith  must 
admit  that  Man  is  only  the  market,  and  not  necessarily  the  reason 
why  Woman  comes  to  the  market.  One  blames  bad  housing,  ques- 
tionable dance  halls,  lack  of  education,  of  religious  instruction,  of 
ideals  and  so -on  down  the  long  line  of  unfortunate  and  deplorable 
conditions ; and,  on  analysis,  they  are  traced  back  one  by  one,  branches 
of  the  tree  of  poverty. 


23 


24 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Always  perhaps  a percentage  of  women,  as  of  men,  will  err;  always 
the  rule  of  moral  rectitude  will  be  proved  with  its  exceptions  in  moral 
lapses ; but  this  is  not  comprehended  within  the  definition  of  prosti- 
tution, which  is  to  err  “for  hire,”  to  sin  in  return  for  money  or  other 
material  benefit.  While  your  committee  is  of  opinion  that  in  general 
the  remedies  for  prostitution  are  likewise  the  remedies  for  immorality, 
it  respectfully  cautions  the  reader  against  a careless  confounding  of 
the  act  of  selling  oneself,  which  is  prostitution,  and  the  act  of  giving 
oneself  without  pay;  it  is  with  the  former  act  only  that  this  report 
deals. 

Throughout  this  inquiry,  as  with  every  other  inquiry  of  public  or 
private  undertaking  that  has  come  to  our  attention,  one  fact  has  stood 
forth  distinctly,  although  in  some  reports  no  prominence  is  accorded 
it,  nor  hac  it  the  dignity  of  commentary.  It  is  the  all-significant  fact 
that  the  tail  of  many  thousands  of  girls  annually  fed  to  commercialized 
vice  is  entirely  exacted  from  the  very  poorest  groups.  Seventy  per 
cent  of  the  mothers  of  girls  at  the  Geneva  home,  who  were  in  employ- 
ment, were  either  washwomen  or  scrubwomen,  “which  means  hard 
work  with  low  earnings.”  (Sophonisba  P.  Breckinridge  in  “The  De- 
linquent Child  and  the  Home.”)  Slightly  under  70  per  cent  of  the 
delinquent  girls  brought  into  the  Juvenile  Court  of  Cook  county  were 
from  families  not  supported  by  the  fathers,  where  the  mother  had  be- 
come the  wage-earner,  and  the  conditions  of  poverty  were  extreme. 
Twenty-one  per  cent  were  from  very  poor  families,  where  “the  father 
was  able  to  bear  the  burden  of  support  but  there  was  a hard  struggle 
while  the  children  were  small,  to  make  both  ends  meet.”  {Same 
authority.)  This  committee  was  unable  to  learn  of  a single  prostitute, 
in  any  city  in  Illinois  visited  or  in  which  its  investigators  operated,  who 
had  come  from  a home  of  even  modest  prosperity.  Vomen  do  not 
seek  lives  of  prostitution,  except  under  economic  pressure,  or  economic 
expediency,  or  under  the  handicap  of  moral  and  mental  defects  result- 
ing from  previous  family  economic  conditions. 

This,  your  committee  respectful}-  submits,  is  the  fundamental,  the 
first  truth  to  be  accepted  in  the  diagnosis  and  intelligent  treatment  of 
the  social  disease  of  prostitution. 

Massachusetts  Report  (Page  42) : 

Certain  facts  recur  so  often  in  the  stories  and  records  of  the  300  pros- 
titutes that  they  must  be  significant.  Nearly  all  come  from  families  in  adverse 
circumstances.  * * * In  29  per  cent  of  the  families  the  mother  was 
obliged  to  work  out  of  the  home  during  the  upbringing  of  the  child.  In 
30  per  cent  of  the  families,  either  one  or  both  parents  had  died  or  the 
family  had  been  broken  up  by  separation  or  divorce  before  the  child  was 
twelve  years  old.  Only  a few  even  pretended  to  come  from  normal,  well- 
conducted  homes,  with  a good  father  and  mother  who  were  able  and  willing 
properly  to  protect  and  bring  up  their  children.  * * * Xhe  few  women 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


25 


found  of  good  mind  and  normal  family  life  point  to  the  fact  that  a massing 
of  contributory  causes  is  necessary  before  a woman  of  this  type  can  be 
so  debased. 

Philadelphia  Report  (Page  18) : 

Our  woman  investigator  interviewed  150  prostitutes  now  in  institutions, 
and  108  mow  leading  a life  of  prostitution  but  not  in  institutions.  * * * 

They  are  typical  cases,  and  are  fairly  indicative  of  the  true  situation. 
* t-  t-  'j'jjg  causes  may  be  summarized  as  follows : Inadequate  support, 
125;  lack  of  recreation,  44;  lack  of  supervision  and  demoralizing  surround- 
ings, 89;  total,  258.  We  interpret  “inadequate  support”  to  mean  that,  in 
the  judgment  of  these  women,  what  they  could  have  earned  had  th§y 
abandoned  the  life  would  not  have  sufficed  for  their  maintenance. 

Same  Report  (Page  22) : ' 

The  housing  conditions  in  portions  of  our  city  are  such  as  to  make  it* 
almost  impossible  for  a child  to  grow  up  in  a clean,  modest,  self-respect- 
ing manner.  The  living  conditions  are  often  so  congested  that  nothing 
short  of  the  moral  heroism  of  a saint  is  required  in  a little  girl  to  combat 
the  temptations  and  the  assaults  that  conspire  against  her  chastity. 

Same  Report  (Page  25)  : 

The  strongest  support  of  the  idea  that  prostitution  roots  in  low  wages 
is  found  in  a study  of  the  annual  wage  incomes  of  men.  * * * 

cannot  too  strongly  voice  our  conviction  that  prostitution  is  chiefly  a family 
and  community,  not  an  individual  responsibility.  Any  large  body  of  wage- 
earning families,  if  dropped  below  a now  fairly  well-defined  standard  of 
living,  speedily  becomes  a seed  bed  for  the  nurture  of  the  inefficient  and 
criminal  individuals  who  are  the  bulk  of  the  goods  on  sale  in  the  business 
of  prostitution.  With  low  incomes  belong  overcrowding,  bad  sanitation, 
anemia,  degenerating  amusements,  a shortened  term  of  education,  religious 
decay — all  the  conditions  which  work  directly  against  health  and  decency; 
which  corrupt  the  general  morale  of  life  among  both  children  and  adults 
as  to  modesty,  reticence,  cleanliness  of  mind  and  person,  reserve  or  con- 
trol of  action ; which  makes  it  almost  surely  a losing  fight  to  try  to  raise 
a family  of  children  to  decency  as  it  is  understood  among  thoughtful  wage- 
earners.  Large  groups  of  men  in  Philadelphia  earn  annually  a wage  about 
$200  below  the  amount  estimated  as  a “living”  wage  in  this  city  for  a 
family  of  father,  mother,  and  three  children.  Such  a family  status  as  to 
income  insures  deterioration  physically  and  socially  for  the  individual  and 
for  the  family  as  a unit  social  group.  Exceptions  to  this  rule  are  negligible. 

Grand  Rapids  (Mich.)  Report  (Pages  31-32) : 

One  of  these  underlying  causes  for  the  social  evil  is  the  inadequate 
family  income,  which  we  believe  has  a considerable  bearing.  The  homes 
where  the  father  receives  insufficient  income  to  properly  support  and  edu- 
cate his  family  are  numerous.  There  the  children  are  often  comnelled  to  assist 
in  maintaining  the  home  and  at  a tender  age  are  sent  into  the  store  or 
factory  at  a time  when  their  character  is  still  in  formation  * * * and 

is  very  susceptible  to  wrong  influences.  The  girl  from  the  farm  or  small 
city,  who  is  compelled  through  financial  stress  of  the  familv  to  earn  a live- 
lihood * * * being  inexperienced,  is  compelled  to  start  at  a low  wage, 
forcing  her  to  exercise  the  strictest  economy  in  food  and  clothing,  tends 


26  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

to  lead  her  into  the  cheap  rooming  house  with  the  consequent  intermingling 
of  sexes,  and  too  often  bringing  her  into  contact  with  uersons  of  immoral 
character.  * * * By  the  time  she  is  in  a position  to  earn  a sufficient 
wage  to  support  herself,  in  comfort,  she  has  reached  the  stage  where  she 
doesn’t  care.  * * Jt  -vvill  be  seen  from  the  data  relative  to  those  who 
had  been  inmates  of  houses  of  prostitution  that  the  average  age  at  which 
they  left  school  was  thirteen  and  one-half  years.  It  can  fairly  be  assumed 
that  the  larger  number  of  these  entered  upon  some  employment,  as  can 
be  gathered  from  the  report,  only  two  stating  they  had  never  worked.  Is 
there  anyone  who  believes  if  these  children  could  have  received  a proper 
education  and  had  been  able  to  remain  under  the  influences  of  a home  where 
the  father  was  able  to  support  the  family  in  comfort  the  result  would  not 
have  been  different?  The  ceaseless  struggles  for  existence,  the  hopelessness 
and  despair  of  poverty  has  its  influence  on  the  character  of  the  children. 
Eminent  authorities  hold  * * * that  children  of  parents  who  are  con- 
stantly harassed  by  the  fear  of  want  * * * are  liable  to  be  brought  into 
the  world  handicapped  by  weak  minds  and  lack  of  power  to  resist  evil 
influences. 

Hartford,  Conn.,  Report  (Page  70) : 

It  is  * * * the  environment  of  poverty  in  which  she  has  grown  up 

that  gradually  leads  to  the  state  of  mind  and  to  the  situation  which  makes 
that  step  possible.  A great  variety  of  unfavorable  conditions  have  drawn 
“daughters  of  . the  poor”  into  traffic  with  their  bodies.  So  far  as  it  is  a 
question  of  wages,  it  is  a question  of  the  wages  not  only  of  women  and 
girls,  but  of  husbands  and  fathers;  in  short,  of  the  earnings  of  the  entire 
social  class  from  which  the  supply  of  prostitutes  has  been  so  largeR  de- 
rived. Insanitary  surroundings,  bad  housing  conditions,  overw’ork,  lack 
of  recreation,  etc.,  obviously  lead  to  defective  phvsical  condition  and  some- 
times to  feeble  minds. 

Wisconsin  Report  (Page  118): 

In  a state  like  Massachusetts  or  Connecticut,  where  there  is  a ver>' 
large  amount  of  female  labor  in  textile  factories,  the  industrial  conditions 
undoubtedly ' contribute  very  largely  to  orostitution.  * * * Temptations 

usually  come  at  a time  when  the  girl  is  less  able  to  resist,  owing  to  the 
conditions  of  fatigue  and  nervousness,  which  follow  a day’s  work  in  the 
factory,  in  the  store,  or  in  the  kitchen.  It  has  been  reuresented  at  times 
that  when  an  individual  is  fatigued  from  a dav’s  work,  he  or  she  has  little 
energy  to  direct  toward  any  immoral  practice.  This  is  contrary  to  the 
opinion  of  psychologists,  physicians  and  experts  upon  fatisrue  in  industrial 
processes.  It  has  been  demonstrated  many  times  that  the  nervous  system 
craves  a form  of  excitement  and  expression  after  the  operations  of  the 
daily  task,  especially  if  the  task  is  a tedious  and  monotonous  one.  * * * 
There  is  much  testimony  to  show  that  the  wages  received  (bv  working  girls 
in  Wisconsin)  would  not  pay  for  room  rent,  board,  etc.,  if  the  girl  were  not 
living  at  home.  * * * That  the  conditions  under  which  women  work 

tend  to  create  immorality  cannot  in  general  be  questioned.  In  many  stores 
and  factories  men  and  women  of  all  degrees  of  morality  and  immorality' 
mingle  with  promiscuous  familiarity.  It  must  also  be  stated  that  the  require- 
ment that  woman  employes  shall  stand  all  day.  and  the  active  nature  of 
the  day’s  work  cause  a severe  nervous  strain,  leading  to  fatigue  and  weaken- 
ing of  the  will  power  by  the  time  the  day  is  ended. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


27 


Minneapolis  Report  (Page  126) ; 

The  economic  aspects  of  the  social  evil  offer  * * * a most  necessary 
field  for  investigation.  * * * One  does  not  need  to  go  far  along  this  line 
of  research  to  reach  the  conviction  that  one  of  the  first  factors  in  tracing 
the  source  of  supply  (of  prostitution),  is  the  increasingly  large  influx  of 
very  young  and  immature  girls  into  industry.  The  chances  for  the  careless 
making  of  promiscuous  male  acquaintances,  the  close  association  of  the 
sexes  in  employment  * * * taken  with  the  low  wage  scale  prevailing  in 
so  many  callings  and  affecting  so  many  individuals,  combine  to  create  a 
situation  that  must  inevitably  weaken  the  moral  stamina  and  lead  to  the 
undoing  of  many.  The  fault  plainly  is  not  so  much  in  the  individual ; it  is 
rather  the  results  of  the  industrial  system.  Your  Commission  is  inclined 
to  give  the  low  wage  scale  some  emphasis  in  this  connection : for  low 
v/ages  undoubtedly  increase  the  menace  to  good  morals,  as  well  as  con- 
stituting an  economic  injustice  which  should  be  remedied.  * * * jja.s 
the  effect  of  encouraging  in  many  a recourse  to  immoral  means  to  piece  out 
the  inadequate  wage.  * * * It  is  unfortunate  that  there  are  others  (em- 
ployers) who  give  preference  to  this  class  of  girl  labor,  anoarentlv  for  no 
other  reason  than  the  desire  to  get  service  on  the  cheapest  possible  terms. 
It  cannot  be  pretended  that  such  employers  are  ignorant  of  the  effect  of  such 
a policy.  * * * Is  it  fair  that  girls  should  be  nut  under  such  stress 

and  temptation  at  an  age  when  they  are  peculiarly  susceptible  to  the  in- 
fluence of  their  surroundings  and  so  much  in  need  of  the  traininp-  and  pro- 
tection of  the  home  and  parent?  Can  society,  in  protection  to  itself,  allow 
this  situation  to  continue?  * * * It  is  well  to  remember  that  low  in- 

come for  the  family  means  inability  to  provide  the  ordinary  necessities 
for  the  maintenance  of  vigor  and  good  health  and  the  little  luxuries  which 
satisfy  young  people.  In  the  face  of  the  constantly  rising  standard  of  living 
and  of  the  increased  cost  of  living,  the  low  wage  for  the  voung  man  means 
postponement  of  marriage,  and  this  in  turn  paves  the  way  for  promiscuous 
relations  with  the  opposite  sex. 

Portland  (Oregon)  Report  (Pages  199  and  200) : 

Where  the  mother  is  away  working  the  children  are  uncared  for  and 
to  a degree  homeless.  Again,  if  there  is  not  proper  income  in  the  family 
the  home  may  be  in  crowded  quarters  in  an  undesirable  part  of  the  city. 
* * * Overcrowding  in  vicious  quarters  of  the  citv  trains  children  in 
ways  of  vice.  The  army  of  prostitutes  is  largely  recruited  from  the  children 
of  the  poor. 

Pittsburgh  Report  (Page  5)  : 

To  cure  these  evils  of  society,  we  must  go  beneath  the  symptoms  to 
the  causes.  With  the  rise  in  the  cost  of  living,  artificial  social  standards, 
and  other  factors  of  modern  life  have  tended  to  defer  the  age  of  marriage 
and  to  penalize  the  establishment  of  a home. 

Same  Report  (Page  27) : 

The  Commission  realizes  that  the  best  remedies  are  economic  and  edu- 
cational. * * * Every  step  to  better  housing  and  cheaper  living  is  a 
step  in  the  direction  of  healthier  morals.  Good  wages  and  low  rents  en- 
courage earlier  marriages.  Family  life  and  home  joys  are  the  preventives 
of  illicit  passion  and  roving  pleasure. 


28 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Chicago  Report  (Page  269) : 

The  whole  tendency  of  modern  industrialism  is  to  place  too  heavy  a 
strain  on  the  nervous  system  of  all  classes,  men  and  women  alike.  * * * 
It  goes  without  saying  that  if  you  have  conditions  which  make  living  with 
comfort  impossible  for  any  large  number  of  men  and  women,  some  of  the 
men  will  become  criminals  and  some  of  the  women  prostitutes. 

Same  Report  (Page  281)  : 

One  of  the  chief  reasons  why  girls  enter  the  life  of  prostitution  is 
evidently  the  economic  one.  They  cannot  live  on  the  wages  paid  them. 
* * * An  investigation  should  be  made  of  all  establishments  employing 

girls  and  young  unmarried  men,  for  the  purpose  of  securing  accurate  figures 
as  to  the  salaries  paid,  hours  of  work,  including  overtime.  * * * If 
such  an  investigation  were  made  public,  it  would  assist  in  creating  an  “in- 
dustrial conscience”  and  would  educate  the  community  to  demand  the  living 
wage. 


(2)  That  thousands  of  girls  are  driven  into  prostitu- 
tion because  of  the  sheer  inability  to  keep  body  and  soul 
together  on  the  low  wages  received  by  them. 

By  the  testimony  of  the  girl  victims,  in  one  unbroken  narrative 
of  hopeless  struggle ; by  the  reports  of  their  private  conversation 
from  experienced  investigators;  by  the  observations  and  judgments 
of  social  workers  whose  integrity  has  never  been  questioned;  and, 
over  and  above  all,  by  the  figures  of  what  the  girls  are  actually 
paid  and  of  what  it  actually  costs  them  to  live,  the  hideous  deficit 
and  the  more  hideous  contemplation  of  how  sometimes  that  deficit 
may  be  bridged;  is  your  committee  brought  irretrievably  to  this 
finding.  It  is  not  a matter  of  sentiment,  or  of  emotion,  or  of  opinion. 
It  is  the  fact,  cold,  not  nice,  uncomplimentary  to  all  of  us ; but 
nevertheless  the  fact. 

It  is  to  be  remembered  that  this  is  an  inquiry  into  prostitution, 
not  of  that  immorality  practised  without  gain ; and  whether  the 
initial  moral  lapse  is  entered  into  for  money,  or  because  of  deceit 
or  ignorance  or  other  cause,  is  not  pertinent  to  the  subject.  There 
is  testimony,  of  authenticity  scarcely  to  be  questioned,  in  the  steno- 
graphic record  of  girls  deliberately  selling  their  virtue  under  ex- 
treme economic  stress. 

Testimony  of  Mrs.  Louise  Bowen  (Page  454); 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  low  wages  has  ever  caused,  directly  or  in- 
directly, a girl  to  go  wrong?  A.  Oh,  j^es,  I know,  because  we  have 
a great  many  instances  where  we  have  cases  of  girls  going  wrong, 
directly  attributable  to  that  cause.  I believe  it  is  a great  factor  in  the 
matter. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


29 


Testimony  of  Mrs.  Louise  Bowen  (Page  456) ; 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  you  known  of  any  girl,  of  any  specific 
case,  who  went  wrong  because  she  was  paid  a starvation  wage?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  you  believed  that  the  girl  was  telling  the  truth?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  I had  no  reason  to  believe  any  other  way. 

Q.  You  know  of  cases  where  she  has  sold  herself  for  money? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I know  of  one  case;  she  was  hungry;  she  hadn’t  had 
anything  to  eat  for  a long  time. 

Q.  And  she  sold  herself  for  money?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  believed  that  she  had  been  good  up  to  that  time?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  she  came  to  the  Juvenile  Protective  Association,  bringing 
with  her  another  little  girl,  and  told  her  own  story  to  me.  She  said, 
“It  is  too  late  now;  you  can’t  do  anything  for  me,  but  perhaps  you 
can  help  this  little  girl.”  Her  story  was  very  true;  do  you  wish  me 
to  give  the  name  of  this  girl? 

Testimony  of  Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain  (Page  466) : 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  A girl  came  to  my  office  and  told  me  that 
she  was  in  a very  bad  condition  physically  and  she  didn’t  know  what 
to  do.  I took  her  to  a doctor  and  found  that  she  needed  medical 
attention.  * * * inflicted  with  a venereal  disease.  She 

did  not  look  like  a girl  who  was  a street  girl,  or  who  ever  could  be, 
and  I talked  to  her  and  she  told  me  that  she  had  been  getting  $6.00  a 
week  at  the  Boston  Store  and  could  earn  no  more.  She  had  to  have 
a pair  of  shoes.  She  had  tried  to  save  her  money,  but  she  had  not 
been  able  to  save  enough  to  get  her  a pair  of  shoes,  and  in  her 
extremity,  and  she  thought  that  she  would  do  it,  just  for  once,  that 
she  might  have  this  pair  of  shoes,  with  this  result.  It  is  a rare  and 
extreme  case,  I think,  but  it  does  happen. 

Wisconsin  Report  (Page  18): 

In  every  large  center  of  population  there  are  * * * women 

who,  upon  losing  their  positions  as  sales  clerks,  domestic  servants  or 
other  poorly  paid  positions,  resort  temporarily  to  prostitution  in  order 
to  live.  There  is  ample  testimony  in  every  investigation  to  show  that 
many  thousands  of  this  type  of  women  pass  into  the  ranks  of  pros- 
titutes and  out  again  every  year  and  often  several  times  a year.  Many 
of  them  finally  secure  a stable  position,  marry  or  return  to  their  homes 
and  so  escape  the  lot  of  the  professional  prostitute.  However,  a large 
number  finally  succumb  to  the  tempfation  of  what  is  upon  first  con- 
sideration an  easy  mode  of  earning  a living. 

Grand  Rapids  Welfare  Commission  (Pages  30-31-32) : 

That  low  wages  paid  female  workers  are  to  some  extent  responsible 
for  the  downfall  of  those  who  have  gone  wrong  is  unquestioned,  as  is 
borne  out  by  the  data  gathered.  In  that  portion  of  the  information 
gathered  relative  to  the  “apt  woman,”  occasional  transgressors  and 
prostitutes,  eight  girls  out  of  forty-seven  give  low  wages  as  the  direct 
cause,  and  in  that  portion  relative  solely  to  inmates  of  houses  of 
prostitution,  numbering  thirty-three,  nine  give  this  as  the  direct  cause 
and  two  as  the  main  contributory  cause,  or  nearly  twenty-five  per  cent 
when  combined.  But,  whether  the  percentage  be  somewhat  higher  or 


30  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

lower,  it  is  of  sufficient  importance  to  merit  the  consideration  of 
remedial  action.  Taking  the  average  wage  of  female  employes  at  $6, 
which  is  a fair  deduction,  it  shows  that  all  too  many  girls  are  earning 
insufficient  to  properly  support  themselves,  and  it  is  a source  of  con- 
gratulation that  the  percentage  of  those  who  fall  is  not  higher. 

Philadelphia  Report  (Page  18) : 

It  is  quite  true,  even  with  virtuous  girls,  that  privations  and  the 
dreadful  monotony  of  a life  without  any  diversions,  which  inadequate 
means  involve,  serve  to  impair  their  physical  and  moral  fibre  so  as  to 
render  it  more  difficult  to  resist  the  insidious  allurements  at  hand. 

* * * It  is  this  consideration  which  involves  the  terrible  responsi- 

bility of  employers  who,  for  the  sake  of  inordinate  profits,  adhere 
to  the  standard  of  mere  supply  and  demand  in  fixing  w'ages,  though 
it  is  fair  to  add  that  it  is  by  no  means  every  employer  who  enjoys 
inordinate  profits. 

There  is  much  other  testimony  of  the  actual  practice  of  prosti- 
tution being  preceded  by  an  experience  in  ignorance  or  deception 
or  force,  in  which  virtue  was  sacrificed  without  either  the  receipt 
or  the  expectation  of  money.  But  even  in  this  respect  the  line  of 
demarkation  between  the  actual  sale  of  virtue  and  the  loss  of  virtue 
through  deception  and  force  is  many  times  difficult  to  trace.  The 
familiar  experience  of  the  girl  decoyed  to  her  infamy  through 
promise  of  marriage  may  be  on  her  part  either  an  error  of  affection 
or  a transgression  born  solely  of  desire  to  escape  an  intolerable 
economic  condition.  The  presumption  is  incontrovertible  that  the 
girl,  whose  means  are  inadequate  properly  to  meet  the  items  of  a 
bare  existence,  is  least  fortified  to  resist  prenuptial  demands,  the 
denial  of  which  she  may  fear  will  cost  a husband  while  the  grant- 
ing might  open  the  matrimonial  door  of  escape  from  all  the  miseries 
of  starvation.  In  the  absence  of  love,  therefore,  such  experiences 
may  partake  of  many  of  the  elements  of  prostitution,  virtue  being 
given,  not  indeed  for  a price  in  mone}",  but  for  a promise  of  future 
support.  The  girl  gambles  rather  than  makes  open  sale. 

This  Committee  is  unwilling  to  believe,  however,  that  in  a ma- 
jority of  instances  mercenary  motives,  or  even  those  of  self-preser- 
vation, actuate  the  girl  in  her  surrender  of  her  sexual  integrity. 
That  they  do  actuate  her,  whether  she  at  the  time  be  of  strict 
virtue  or  otherwise,  when  she  permits  the  promiscuous  violation  of 
her  body  for  money  is,  of  course,  the  inevitable  presumption  under 
the  plain  definition  of  prostitution.  The  important  point,  and  the 
only  one  really  at  issue,  is  that  in  those  cases  where  it  figures  the 
low  wage  is  the  impelling  force  in  the  girl’s  initial  act  of  prosti- 
tution. Upon  contemplation,  it  is  believed  most  persons  will  agree 
that  the  details  of  the  girl’s  experience  prior  to  the  actual  prostitu- 
tion may  be  dismissed  as  irrelevant. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


31 


From  persons  who  regard  a mistake,  or  a misstep,  as  condem- 
natory of  all  future  effort  by  the  offending  party  may  be  expected 
the  argument  that,  while  this  Committee  may  make  technical  dis- 
tinction between  an  immoral  act  and  prostitution,  to  all  practical 
purposes  there  is  no  distinction — that  an  immoral  woman  is  as 
evil  a thing  as  a prostitute.  The  Committee  submits  that  the 
practical  difference  is  one  of  redemption.  Girls  in  comfortable 
circumstances  err ; they  respond  to  impulses ; they,  too,  are  the 
victims  of  deception  and  unwisely-reposed  affections ; errors,  im- 
pulses and  pitfalls  that  unfortunately  cannot  immediately  and  en- 
tirely be  removed  by  laws.  But,  in  the  normal  person,  remorse 
follows  the  violation  of  rules  of  right  and  wrong;  and  in  how 
many  instances  this  remorse  has  brought  repentance  and  that 
repentance,  unrestrained  by  the  working  of  economic  pressure,  has 
remained  lasting,  we  leave  for  estimate  to  such  persons  as  may 
care  to  exercise  their  imaginations.  There  are  no  statistics  on 
“family  skeletons”  nor  on  the  secrets  that  are  confined  to  the 
memories  of  participants.  But  the  girl’s  hope  of  redemption,  we 
are  of  opinion,  grades  downward  with  the  intensity  of  her  struggle 
for  existence.  The  hope  must  certainly  be  dimmest  where  tempta- 
tion is  strongest — with  the  girl  whose  wage  cannot  support  her. 
This  phase  of  the  problem  is  important.  The  girl  at  home,  or  in 
receipt  of  a living  wage,  is  not  necessarily  doomed  by  the  initial 
folly.  She  often  redeems  herself  and  is  restored  to  the  world  of 
well-behaved,  even  pure-minded  persons.  The  girl  who  is  below 
the  “bread  line,”  who  is  slipping  weekly  further  and  further  into 
debt  and  misery,  seldom  recovers  from  the  first  moral  lapse.  If 
virtue  outright  she  would  not  barter,  virtue  wrecked  she  soon 
stoops  to  commercialize.  Failure  to  effect  a cure  by  relieving  the 
strain  of  economics  and  leaving  the  girl  unhandicapped  to  battle 
for  her  recovery  and  redemption,  almost  invariably  results  in  the 
development  of  the  moral  lapse  into  chronic  immorality,  or  pros- 
titution. This,  your  Committee  respectfully  submits,  is  a rule  of 
fundamental  importance  in  the  genesis  of  prostitutes. 

Chicago  Report  (Page  198) : 

It  may  be  well  to  call  particular  attention  to  the  fact  that  the 
present  economic  and  insanitary  conditions  under  which  the  girls 
employed  in  factories  and  department  stores  live  and  work,  has  an 
effect  on  the  nervous  forces  of  the  girl  in  such  a way  as  to  render  her 
much  more  susceptible  to  prostitution.  It  is  unfortunate  that  it  has 
not  been  possible  to  undertake  a full  investigation  of  hours  of  labor 
and  the  results  of  nervous  strain  caused  by  machinery  and  occupations 
where  machinery  is  chiefly  employed  and  operated  by  women  and  girls. 
Without  this  accurate  economic  data,  it  is  practically  impossible  to 
establish  a firm  foundation  on  which  to  deal  with  the  sources  of  vice 
in  its  various  forms. 


32  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
Chicago  Report  (Page  202)  : 

There  are  many  men  who  own  large  establishments,  who  pa3'  wages 
which  simply  drive  women  into  prostitution.  Some  of  the  girls  who  are 
most  tempted,  and  enter  lives  of  prostitution,  work  in  the  big  depart- 
ment stores,  surrounded  by  luxuries,  which  all  of  them  crave,  and  sell 
large  quantities  of  those  luxuries  for  a wage  compensation  of  about 
$7.00  or  $8.00  a week,  and  even  less. 

Same  (Page  203): 

The  girl  in  the  department  store  is  confronted  with  certain  temp- 
tations which  are  ever  pressing  harder  upon  her.  The  first  of  these  is 
the  procuress,  the  second  the  “cadet,”  and  the  third,  the  man  directh" 
over  her,  who  may  even  be  the  manager  or  the  proprietor  himself.  * 
* * It  has  been  established  after  exhaustive  study  that  it  is  quite 

impossible  for  a working  girl  in  any  large  city  to  live  on  less  than 
$8.00  per  week,  yet  employers  of  these  department  stores  say  that  they 
pay  on  an  average  of  from  $6.00  to  $7.00  per  week.  * * * A former 

salesgirl  in  a department  stores  was  seen  in  a fashionable  all-night 
restaurant.  She  said  that  four  weeks  previous  she  had  been  earning 
$8.00  per  week.  She  enumerated  different  articles  of  clothing  which 
she  was  wearing,  and  gave  the  prices  of  each,  including  her  hat.  The 
total  amount  came  to  over  $200.00.  Her  eyes  had  been  opened  to  her 
earning  capacity  in  the  “sporting”  life  by  a man  who  laughed  at  her 
for  wasting  her  good  looks  and  physical  charms  behind  a counter  for 
a boss  who  was  growing  rich  from  her  services,  and  the  services  of 
others  like  her.  * * * "phe  plain  blunt  facts  tell  more  than  pages 
of  theorizing  on  the  .subject. 

Abram  I.  Elkus,  Counsel  of  New  York  State  Factory  Commission: 

Many  cases,  too,  are  reported  of  very  young  girls  turning  to  a life 
of  prostitution  because  they  were  “tired  of  work” — tired  of  the  inces- 
sant grind  of  the  factory  before  they  had  reached  the  legal  age  to  work 
in  a factory  at  all. 

Pittsburgh  Survey  (Page  305): 

Where  the  store  is  particular  as  to  the  mode  of  life  of  its  emplo3-es, 
the  percentage  of  girls  that  lead  irregular  lives  is  lower  than  in  those 
stores  where  it  is  sometimes  tolerated  and  sometimes  encouraged;  3'et 
from  among  the  girls  themselves,  and  those  dealing  with  it  from  those 
sources,  my  information  is  that  in  the  moral  jeopard3’'  of  shop  girls  lies 
one  of  the  serious  problems  of  the  women  emplo3^ed  in  trades. 

Alfred  Russell  Wallace: 

I have  shown  that  modern  ideas  as  to  the  necessit3r  of  dealing 
directly  with  some  of  our  glaring  social  evils,  such  as  race  degenera- 
tion and  the  various  forms  of  sexual  immoralit3q  are  fundamentall3' 
wrong  and  are  doomed  to  failure  so  long  as  their  fundamental  causes 
— widespread  poverty,  destitution,  and  starvation— are  not  greath' 
diminished  and  ultimately  abolished.  I have  proved  that  human  nature 
is  not  in  itself  such  a complete  failure  as  our  modern  eugenists  seem 
to  suppose,  but  that  it  is  influenced  by  fundamental  laws  which  under 
reasonably  just  and  equal  economic  conditions  will  automaticalh-  abol- 
ish all  these  evils. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


33 


Portland  Report  (Page  168): 

If  a large  number  of  women  are  employed  in  the  industries  of  Port- 
land at  less  than  a living  wage,  this  is  a condition  that  may  lead  to  vice. 

The  employers  did  not  deny  that  many  thousands  of  girls  were 
paid  in  wages  an  amount  below  that  upon  which  they  could  reasonably 
be  expected  to  live.  Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald,  president  of  Sears-Roe- 
i buck  & Company,  was  a typical  witness.  He  told  of  an  inquiry  con- 
' ducted  by  three  department  heads  of  Sears-Roebuck  & Company  for 
the  purpose  of  ascertaining  the  girl’s  minimum  cost  of  existence.  The 
inquiry  fixed  $8.00  as  the  least  amount  that  would  suffice  to  meet  the 
' necessary  items  of  a bare  living.  Mr.  Rosenwald  then  testified  that 
i Sears-Roebuck  & Company  paid  to  1,465  girls,  or  30.96  per  cent  of 
f all  the  females  employed  by  it,  less  than  $8.00  a week  (page  178). 
I The  average  wage  paid  by  Sears-Roebuck  & Company  [an  average 
' computed  upon  the  wage  of  4,732  females]  was  $9.12,  or  but  $1.12 
: above  the  “bare  cost  of  living’’  estimate.  Mr.  James  Simpson,  vice 
I president  of  Marshall  Field  & Company,  also  regarded  $8.00  a week 
! as  an  amount  below  which  the  girl’s  expenses  would  not  run.  He 
1 testified  that  1,035  girls,  or  24.51  per  cent  of  all  the  female  labor  em- 
I ployed  by  Marshall  Field  & Company,  were  paid  less  than  $8.00  (page 
! 206).  Other  merchants  on  State  Street  in  the  City  of  Chicago  gave 

I similar  testimony — all  recognized  $8.00  as  the  minimum  cost  of  liv- 
ing, and  all  paid  less  than  $8.00  to  large  numbers  of  their  female  em- 
I ployes,  running  from  22  to  85  per  cent  of  the  total  number  at  work. 
In  five  of  the  largest  stores,  of  13,610  women  employed,  over  7,000, 
■or  about  52  per  cent,  were  paid  less  than  a living.  (Page  115.) 

* With  a few  exceptions,  the  employers  maintained  that  the  girls 
I lived  at  home,  or  said  they  did,  and  that  the  burden  of  their  support 
li  was  upon  the  fathers,  who  begot  them,  and  not  upon  the  industries, 
I that  utilized  them. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  James  Simpson  (page  204): 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Simpson,  of  any  girl  who  can  buy  the  necessities 

iof  life,  keep  herself  neat  and  pay  her  car  fare  on  $5.00  a week?  [Witness 
had  testified  to  employment  of  440  girls,  part  time,  for  $4.00  a week,  and 
213,  all  time,  at  $5.00  a week.]  A.  No,  not  if  dependent  on  her  own 
resources. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  pay  a girl  $5.00  a week  and  it  would  cost  her,  we 
will  say,  $8.00  a week,  you  are  placing  the  burden  of  the  difference  between 
$5.00  and  $8.00  a week  upon  her  parents  if  she  be  living  with  her  parents. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Or,  on  someone  else’s  shoulders?  A.  I sup- 
pose the  parents’  shoulders  are  to  bear  the  burden.  These  children  are 
young  girls,  young  women  going  to  school,  as  it  were.  They  are  pre- 
paring themselves  for  a greater  earning  capacity  later  on.  .They  are 
serving  an  apprenticeship,  as  i:  were.  You  put  your  question  as  to  trans- 
ferring the  burden  of  these  girls  on  someone  else’s  shoulders.  I don’t 
think  it  is  a fair  question  the  way  it  is  put. 


34 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Then  I will  try  to  put  it  differently.  Coming  back  to  the  old  rela- 
tion between  the  employer  and  the  employe — let  us  take  the  case  of  these 
$5.00  a week  girls  and  we  have  got  a concrete  case.  You  have  213  getting 
$5.00  a week  and  you  have  stated  that  they  can’t  live  on  $5.00  a week,  and 
Governor  O’Hara  asked  you  if  you  were  not  trying  to  put  the  blame  of 
the  burden  for  the  balance  on  other  shoulders?  A.  I am  not. 

Q.  Where  does  it  come  from?  A.  Those  people  are  getting  all  they 
are  worth.  They  are  going  to  school,  as  it  were.  They  are  preparing 
themselves  for  a greater  earning  capacity.  I want  to  say  now  that  the 
average  wage  of  all  female  employes  in  our  establishment  is  $10.76.  * * * 
These  girls  that  are  getting  $5.00  a week  are  preparing  themselves  to 
occupy  positions  which  will  justify  paying  them  more  money. 

A slightly  diflerent  reason  was  given  by  Mr.  L.  R.  Steele,  mana- 
ger of  the  Knox  Five  and  Ten-Cent  Store,  on  State  Street,  in  Chicago. 
Mr.  Steele  testified  that  fifty-nine  girls,  or  84.28  per  cent  of  all  the 
females  employed  in  his  establishment,  were  paid  less  than  $8.00  a 
week,  most  of  them  receiving  $6.00.  He  offered  a frank  explanation 
of  why  he  employed  girls  at  less  than  they  could  live  on. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  L.  R.  Steele  (page  697): 

Q.  When  girls  come  in  looking  for  jobs,  do  they  fill  out  any  applica- 
tion blanks?  A.  Yes.  * * * gives  the  name  of  her  father  and 

mother,  how  long  she  attended  public  school  and  where  she  worked  at 
last,  and  three  references;  usually  the  references  they,  give  are  fictitious. 

Q.  Before  putting  a girl  to  wor’',  will  you  look  up  her  references? 

A.  We  are  supposed  to  look  them  up  right  away;  we  have  a young  man 
who  is  supposed  to  look  a girl  up  right  away. 

Q.  Suppose  a girl  hasn’t  a father  and  has  not  a mother,  you  take 

her  anyway,  do  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  you  don’t  care  whether  she  is  entirely  self-dependent  or 
not?  A.  No,  that  doesn’t  enter  into  the  proposition  at  all. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  want  to  get  girls  at  $6.00  a week?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  And  what  they  do  with  the  $6.00,  and  whether  they  live  on  it,  is 
their  own  concern?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  are  frank  and  honest  with  us,  anyhow.  A.  Yes,  it  is 
a commercial  proposition  with  us. 

Q.  Some  of  the  witnesses  before  us  have  told  us  that  they  don’t 
like  to  take  these  girls  unless  they  were  thoroughly  satisfied  that  they 
were  living  at  home.  A.  That  is  a good  rule,  but  we  have  applications 
or  requests  from  the  largest  firms  in  the  city  on  the  same  girls  that  we 
have  lost  from  the  store. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  it  really  makes  any  more  difference  with  them 
than  it  does  with  you?  A.  No,  I do  not. 

Same  Witness  (page  696) : 

Q.  What  do  you  call  “floaters?”  A.  They  might  stay  a week,  or 
two  weeks,  and  they  might  be  in  the  store  two  hours  and  we  catch  them 
stealing,  and  discharge  them. 

Q.  Do  you  find  that  happens  quite  often?  A.  I should  say  so.  * * 

Q.  Then,  in  your  judgment,  some  ot  these  girls  getting  $6.00  a week, 
steal  to  live?  A.  I would  not  say  that  of  all  of  them;  I would  say  some 
of  them  did. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


35 


If  a large  percentage  of  the  girls  working  for  Marshall  Field  & 
Company  and  for  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company,  business  institutions 
that  take  much  pride  in  their  welfare  work  and  that  enjoy  wide  fame 
and  prestige,  are  in  receipt  at  the  end  of  the  week’s  toil  of  inadequate 
means  of  liquidating  the  week’s  bills,  it  is  a reasonable  presumption 
that  a much  larger  percentage  of  girls  “below  the  bread  line’’  will  hold 
in  those  industries  without  prestige  and  without  pride.  Ample  testi- 
mony of  conditions  in  these  employments ; of  wages  running  as  low 
as  $2.00  a week ; of  foremen  who  profanely  abuse  girls  in  short 
dresses,  shake  them  until  their  arms  are  blackened,  and  occasionally 
hurl  boxes  at  them ; of  the  manager  who  found  his  factory  besieged 
with  the  agents  of  professional  white  slavery ; of  the  girls  M^ho 
struggled,  and  through  it  all  remained  good;  of  other  girls  who 
struggled,  and  succumbed ; all  will  be  found,  as  given  to  your  Com- 
mittee under  oath,  in  the  stenographic  record,  appearing  elsewhere 
as  part  of  this  report,  and  to  which  the  members  of  the  Honorable 
Senate  are  referred.  It  is  a mass  of  sordid  detail.  It  tells  its  own 
story,  and  draws  its  own  conclusion.  It  is  proof  in  preponderance. 


(3)  That  thousands  of  girls  are  forced  into  industrial 
employment  by  the  low  wages  received  by  their  fathers; 
that  they  are  separated  from  proper  home  influences  at  an 
excessively  early  age ; that  they  are  inadequately  schooled 
and  are  insufficiently  protected;  and  that  many  of  them 
become  recruits  for  the  system  of  prostitution. 

Your  Committee  has  found  no  disagreement  as  to  the  effect  of  the 
family  life  and  standards  on  the  morals  of  the  growing  children.  That 
any  causes  with  tendency  to  reduce  home  standards  and  to  destroy 
family  circles  will  promote  vice  and  prostitution  is  unanimously 
accepted  as  true  reasoning  by  all  students  of  the  problem  and  by  all 
of  the  witnesses  appearing  before  this  Committee  and  questioned  there- 
on. It  must  logically  follow  that  any  wage  inadequate  to  the  proper 
sustenance  of  a normal  family  of  husband,  wife  and  children,  will  in- 
evitably promote  immorality  and  prostitution. 

Testimony  of  much  value  was  given  by  prominent  bankers,  who 
were  unanimous  in  their  position  that  experience  in  the  banking  busi- 
ness had  shown  that  inadequacy  of  wage  directly  affected  the  power 
to  resist  temptation.  Mr.  James  B.  Forgan,  then,  and  for  many  years 
preceding,  president  of  the  First  National  Bank  of  Chicago,  told  of  a 
rule  of  the  pension  board,  and  respected  by  the  bank,  that  no  employe, 
earning  less  than  $1,000  a year,  could  marry  and  hold  his  position  in 
the  bank.  Mr.  Forgan  considered  this  the  least  amount  upon  which 


36 


Report  of  the  Ii.linois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


a bank  employe  could  be  expected  to  support  a family.  In  the  figures 
volunteered  by  Mr.  Forgan  of  the  wages  paid  to  male  employes  of 
the  First  National  Bank,  a total  of  580  men,  27  per  cent  were  ascer- 
tained to  be  receiving  less  than  $500  a year,  and  37  per  cent  less  than 
$1,000  a year.  Briefly,  approximately  37  per  cent  of  the  male  em- 
ployes of  the  bank  were  at  the  time  precluded  from  marrying.  Wages 
in  other  large  Chicago  banks  did  not  differ  from  those  paid  in  the 
First  National,  in  a material  degree;  while  they  were  larger  than  in 
many  other  lines  of  employment.  As  example : 4,500  men  employed 
by  the  Chicago  City  Railways  Company  received  an  average  monthly 
wage  of  $71.50,  or  $142  a year  less  than  the  “safe”  marriage  figure 
quoted  by  Mr.  Forgan.  Again;  8,769  men  employed  by  the  Chicago 
Railways  Company  received  an  average  monthly  wage  of  $69.20,  or 
$169.60  a year  less  than  the  marriage  figure. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  James  E.  Forgan  (Page  757): 

Q.  And  you  don’t  care  to  try  the  experiment?  A.  And  I don’t 
care  to  try  the  experiment. 

Q.  Is  it  a fair  presumption,  Mr.  Forgan,  that  the  children  of  the 
man  being  paid  $12.00  a week  must  leave  school  at  an  early  age  and  go 
to  work?  A.  Yes,  we  have  a selfish  way  of  looking  at  that.  When  we 
employ  a boy  that  is  not  of  paying  age,  one  of  the  first  inquiries  is,  are 
his  parents  in  position  to  support  him?  I think  you  can  see  the  reason 
for  it.  We  can’t  afford  to  have  anybody  who  is  dishonest  working  in 
the  bank;  the  opportunities  are  too  big,  and  therefore  the  question  of 
whether  he  can  be  properly  supported  or  not  is  one  of  the' questions  to 
be  investigated  before  we  employ  him.  We  see  the  father  and  make 
arrangements  with  the  father  with  the  understanding  of  that  bo}-  that 
we  pay  him  enough  to  live  on,  but  with  the  understanding  that  the 
father  wants  him  to  learn  the  business  and  for  a year  or  two  he  will  be 
supported.  When  I started  the  business,  I got  as  much  a 3’ear  as  these 
young  fellows  get  a month.  I got  five  pounds  the  first  3'ear,  ten  pounds 
the  second,  fifteen  pounds  the  third,  and  twenty  pounds  the  fourth;  that 
was  my  first  four  years  in  the  bank  and  I thought  I was  getting  quite 
an  advantage  and  it  was  quite  a privilege  to  get  the  position. 

Q.  Then  3'ou  think  that  the  inadequac3'  of  wage  has  something  to 
do  with  the  power  to  resist  temptation?  A.  Decided^v  A 3mung  fel- 
low gets  into  spending  more  than  he  is  earning,  gets  into  debt,  he  ma3' 
get  in  debt  to  some  pretty  hard  creditor,  who  is  crowding  him  or  push- 
ing him,  and  it  is  undoubtedly  a strong  temptation  to  him  to  temporize 
at  first,  perhaps  thinking  he  can  help  himself  to  something  to  meet  that 
emergency,  and  in  meeting  that  emergency  he  gets  in  from  bad  to  worse. 

Q.  Most  of  the  dishonesty  in  life  comes  from  such  conditions,  does 
it  not?  A.  I think  so,  from  pressure  of  circumstances,  3-es. 

Constantly  throughout  the  hearings  of  this  Committee,  day  after 
day,  as  one  wdtness  w^ould  follow  another,  the  burden  of  the  deficit 
between  the  girl’s  wage  and  the  cost  of  her  lit  ing  tvas  in  issue.  It  was 
maintained  by  the  employers  that  this  deficit  properly  should  rest  upon 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


37 


the  home  from  which  the  girl  came.  Your  Committee  was  of  opinion 
that  the  burden  belonged  to  the  employer.  On  this  there  was  much 
argument,  the  expression  of  many  viewpoints,  all  of  which  is  printed 
in  the  stenographic  record. 

This  matter  of  the  deficit  is,  in  the  judgment  of  your  Committee, 
the  crux  of  the  problem  of  low  wages.  Saddled  where  it  now  is,  on 
the  shoulders  of  the  parents,  it  operates  to  deprive  at  least  three  genera- 
tions of  a fair  chance.  This  is  a matter  of  mathematics  so  simple  it 
may  be  figured  by  a child.  Mr.  Rosenwald  gave  $15.41  as  the  average 
male  wage  at  Sears-Roebuck  & Company.  This  is  a much  higher 
average  than  obtains  in  many  other  establishments,  so  for  the  purpose 
of  illustration  an  eminently  fair  figure  to  use.  If  $8.00  be  the  mini- 
mum living  expense  for  a girl,  no  one  would  expect  the  recipient  of 
the  average  Sears-Roebuck  & Company  male  wage  to  do  better  than 
support  himself,  wife  and  one  child  for  the  first  fourteen  years  of  the 
child’s  life.  That  is,  he  cannot  support  two  adults  and  a growing 
infant  on  $15.41  a week,  and  save  money.  And  under  the  law,  which 
prevents  child  labor,  the  support  of  that  child  is  entirely  his  responsi- 
bility for  that  period.  At  fourteen  the  child — a daughter,  for  example 
— goes  out  to  employment.  From  fourteen  to  sixteen  she  will  receive, 
in  the  average  place,  $3.00  a week,  and  from  sixteen  to  eighteen  prob- 
ably $5.00.  During  this  period  of  four  years  she  has  required  food, 
lodging,  clothing,  car  fare  and  other  items  included  in  the  $8.00  mini- 
mum calculation.  The  deficit  for  the  four  years  totals  $832.  The 
father,  who  is  now  in  the  maximum  earning  period,  between  thirty- 
five  and  forty  years,  must  meet  the  deficit  with  an  economy  prohibitive 
of  many  family  necessities,  such  as  adequate  food,  or  go  into  debt.  In 
either  case  the  family  environment  is  lowered,  and  worry  must  dis- 
place that  contentment  that  is  essential  to  completely  sane  morals. 

When  she  reaches  eighteen,  the  father  has  ceased  to  advance  in- 
dustrially. He  is  somewhere  about  forty,  probably  slightly  over;  and 
in  ten  years  at  the  most  will  be  face  to  face  with  an  age  barrier;  after 
which  his  earning  capacity  will  rapidly  descend  to  the  point  approxi- 
mately reached  by  his  daughter  at  sixteen,  where  he  must  find  money 
from  other  sources  to  force  his  income  to  a bare  living  figure.  Mean- 
while, the  daughter,  after  four  years  of  industrial  service  at  a loss 
of  $832 — from  the  employers’  self-defending  viewpoint,  an  “educa- 
tion”— becomes  the  average  female  worker  at  the  average  salary,  which 
at  Sears-Roebuck  & Company  was  $9.12.  If  she  conscientiously  under- 
takes to  repay  the  “deficit”  to  her  father,  whose  debts  or  approaching 
old  age  clearly  demand  it,  she  may  finally  liquidate  the  account  in 
fourteen  years  and  three  months.  But  to  do  this  she  must  keep 
steadily  at  work,  with  never  a day  off  for  sickness  or  vacation.  Also, 
§he  must  not  deviate  one  cent  from  the  figures,  upon  which  are  com- 


38  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

puted  the  $8.00  living  scale.  She  must  be  content  to  exist  upon  the 
least  amount  that  her  employers  have  found  a girl  can  live  on,  and  must 
regularly  surrender  to  her  parent  the  $1.12  weekly  difference  between 
her  wage  and  the  actual  cost  of  her  existence.  By  the  time  she  has 
liquidated  her  indebtedness  she  is  in  her  thirty-third  year;  and  if  she 
should  then  marry  and  have  children,  the  strain  of  her  long  struggle, 
together  with  her  advanced  age,  would,  according  to  medical  authority, 
adversely  affect  the  coming  generation  even  before  birth. 

The  illustration  is,  of  course,  based  upon  averages — the  average 
parent,  the  average  parent’s  wage,  the  average  girl,  the  average  girl’s 
wage — and  the  deductions  made  must  exactly  fit  the  average  case.  The 
element  of  chance,  or  accident,  in  the  manner  of  raising  the  wage 
above  the  average,  or  lowering  it,  or  of  keeping  the  cost  of  existence 
below  the  average,  or  raising  it,  is  eliminated.  If  the  girl  does  not 
recognize  or  does  not  attempt  to  meet  her  parental  obligation  (and  it 
is  not  presumed  that  she  will  figure  it  with  the  exactness  used  here), 
the  burden  is  not  lifted  from  the  family.  It  is  fatal  to  the  family’s 
chance,  whether  the  debt  be  assumed  by  parent  or  by  child. 

Your  Committee  therefore  holds  that  justification  of  a payment  to 
the  girl  of  less  than  a living  wage  on  the  plea  that  her  father  should 
meet  the  deficit  is  unscientific,  untenable  and  subject  to  mathematical 
disproof.  It  is  conclusively  answered  in  the  figures  revealing  that,  in 
reputable  and  foremost  institutions,  the  average  male  wage  is  hope- 
lessly below  the  actual  cost  of  family  existence.  The  home  is  as  poor 
as  the  girl ; it  is  unable  to  bear  the  burden  of  the  deficit,  which,  in  the 
employers’  failure  to  meet  it,  comes  back  to  the  girl  herself,  sometimes 
directly,  sometimes  indirectly,  in  the  way  of  sacrificed  necessities  and 
restricted  opportunities. 


(4)  Unregulated  condition  of  domestic  employment, 
uncertain  hours,  absence  of  definite  social  status  and  lack 
of  recreative  opportunities  render  the  home,  in  many 
cases,  for  the  woman  servants,  a breeding  place  of  com- 
mercialized vice. 

Until  the  system  of  domestic  employment  is  entirely  reorganized, 
to  conform  with  the  American  conception  of  the  true  dignity  of  labor, 
it  may  not  be  possible  for  the  woman,  in  comfortable  enough  circum- 
stances to  employ  one  or  more  female  servants,  to  escape  a certain 
unconscious  complicity  in  the  agency  of  procuring  prostitutes.  The 
terrihc  indictment  against  the  system,  of  which  every  good  woman 
who  has  servants  is  a greater  or  less  part,  is  in  the  startling  per- 
centage of  vice  victims  who  attribute  their  entry  into  a dishonorable 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


39 


calling  to  their  previous  domestic  employment.  Of  181  girls  sent  to 
the  State  Training  School  at  Geneva,  who  had  worked  for  a wage 
previous  to  commitment,  115,  or  63.55  per  cent,  had  been  engaged  in 
domestic  service. 

If  many  of  the  girls  thus  employed  eventually  find  escape  from 
distasteful  conditions  by  embracing  prostitution,  many  others  desert 
the  service  after  a brief  trial  to  swell  the  army  of  underpaid,  under- 
fed, underclothed  workers  in  the  stores  and  factories.  It  is  a pecu- 
liarly strong  compliment  to  the  sensing  faculty  of  the  female,  and 
her  intuitive  avoidance  of  sexual  danger,  that  the  occupation  proved 
by  actual  statistics  to  be  productive  of  most  prostitution  is  the  occu- 
pation she  most  shuns.  Thus  there  is  a constant  unfilled  demand  for 
domestics ; a condition  in  the  female  labor  market  that  is  most  often, 
and  erroneously,  pointed  to  in  controversion  of  the  contention  of  this 
committee  that  the  starvation  wage  is  a factor  in  the  industry  of  vice. 
Your  committee  is  of  opinion  that  the  lack  of  facilities  for  proper 
social  intercourse,  the  constant  reminder  of  inferior  position  through 
differential  treatment,  and  the  uncertain  and  often  unreasonably  long 
hours  are  conditions  of  poverty,  invariably  destructive  of  the  calm 
mind  and  self-respect  necessary  to  normal  morality. 

Examination  of  G.  Stanley  Finch  (Page  356) : 

MRS.  OWEN  KILDARE:  I would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Finch  if  he  has 
formulated  any  reason  as  to  why  so  many  of  the  women  who  are  house- 
workers  enter  the  white  slave  traffic. 

MR.  FINCH:  If  I had  time,  I could  give  you  an  illustration.  It  is 
hard  to  give  a reason  for  that  in  a few  words.  In  the  cases  where  we 
know  the  real  facts,  it  is  due  to  the  fact  that  the  girl  who  is  in  the  home 
is  apart  from  her  fellows,  and  is  more  easily  subject  to  temptation.  We 
have  numbers  of  cases  where  young  girls  are  acting  as  nurses  or  wait- 
resses, and  if  they  are  nice  looking  girls,  they  attract  some  one  con- 
nected with  the  household  and  through  the  display  of  money,  or  fur- 
nishing of  money,  or  the  offers  or  favors  of  different  kinds,  the  girl  is 
sometimes  seduced,  and  in  that  way  is  led  astray  and  eventually  is 
driven  into  a house  of  ill-fame.  Then,  of  course,  the  girls  who  work  in 
houses  are  not  so  well  educated  as  the  girls  who  work  in  stores,  and  I 
think  in  factories,  too;  and,  being  more  ignorant,  they  are  more  easily 
the  victims  of  the  white  slave  traffickers.  I do  not  know  whether  that 
answers  the  question  satisfactorily. 

Miss  Breckinridge  in  “The  Delinquent  Child  and  the  Home:” 

Many  of  the  girls  who  are  sent  out  to  (domestic)  service  are  piti- 
fully young  and  ignorant.  Cases  of  twelve-year-old  girls  who  have  gone 
out  to  work  and  then  “gone  wrong”  have  been  mentioned,  and  there 
are  many  others  who  are  only  fourteen,  fifteen  or  sixteen  years  old, 
when  they  are  sent  out  unprotected  into  strange  homes.  These  little 
girls,  from  the  very  fact  of  their  being  so  young  and  so  untrained,  find 
only  the  most  undesirable  places,  where  they  are  household  drudges, 
exposed  to  temptation,  separated  from  their  own  families,  and  only  too 


40 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


often  with  no  protection  substituted  for  that  which  their  families  might 
have  supplied.  The  records  of  the  country  girls  furnish  many  illustra- 
tions of  the  extreme  peril  to  which  the  young  girl  is  subjected  when 
“bound  out”  or  employed  in  households  in  which  no  adequate  protec- 
tion is  afforded  by  the  mistress  supposedly  in  loco  parentis.  We  have, 
therefore,  some  shocking  records  of  the  little  maid  abused  by  the 
boarder,  the  farm  hand,  or  even  by  a member  of  the  family  group. 

Testimony  of  Mrs.  Louise  Bov.’cn  (Page  455): 

Q.  Why  does  the  girl  in  domestic  service  sometimes  go  wrong? 
A.  I suppose  there  are  a great  many  reasons.  In  communities  like 
ours,  she  must  have  her  recreation,  and  she  goes  to  dances  and  places 
of  that  kind,  and  gets  into  difficulties  in  that  way.  Most  of  American 
girls  don’t  want  to  see  their  men  friends  in  somebody  else’s  kitchen. 

Q.  Where  do  they  go?  A.  They  go  out  in  the  street,  or  else 
into  the  saloon,  or  the  parks,  or  five-cent  shows. 

Q.  That  is  usually  the  case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  housewdfe  there  is  the  employer,  isn’t  she?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  She  may  have  only  one  employe?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  her  maid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  maid  wmrks  hard  during  the  day,  and  at  night  has  only 
the  street  or  the  kitchen  in  which  to  meet  the  young  man?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  lessens  her  matrimonial  chances?  A.  Yes. 

Testimony  of  Girl  Victim  at  Peoria  (Page  339): 

Well,  I am  not  infatuated  with  the  life,  I will  sa3'  that.  However, 
it  does  give  you  a chance  to  live  and  take  care  of  j'ourself.  There  is 
companionship,  too.  In  a rooming  house  j’ou  have  no  companionship, 
many  times.  They  expect  you  to  stay  in  your  room,  most  places.  If  a 
girl  works  in  a private  house,  as  a domestic  servant,  then  j'ou  have  the 
kitchen  for  your  place.  If  anybod\'  wants  to  see  j'ou,  she  or  he  comes 
into  the  kitchen.  They  give  jmu  no  privileges  at  all.  Their  dogs  or 
horses  would  be  treated  better,  in  manj-  cases.  They  simph"  have  no 
consideration  for  you,  even  if  you  are  ill.  The}'  wouldn’t  let  an^'bod}' 
come  to  see  you  at  the  front  door.  You  are  worse  than  an}-  slave  that 
ever  was  in  existence  in  some  places.  Thej-  don’t  consider  j'ou  ever 
get  tired  or  need  rest.  You  are  a machine,  wound  up  in  the  morning, 
and  you  work  till  all  hours  in  the  night,  in  a private  famih'.  You  are 
up  in  the  morning  before  they  are  up,  and  j'ou  get  jmur  meals  in  a 
hurry,  and  do  your  work  all  through  the  dajq  and  then  3'ou  are  expected 
to  work  late  at  night.  Their  dinner  is  late.  The  usual  famiU-  dinner  is 
not  until  half  past  6 or  7.  By  the  time  j'ou  get  the  work  done,  it  is  8 
or  9 o’clock.  When  they  have  companj'  it  is  worse.  You  are  up,  after 
late  work  at  night,  at  half  past  S or  6 in  the  morning.  You  work  all 
day  long,  and  thej^  don’t  ever  stop  to  figure  how  manj-  hours  \'ou  work, 
and  whether  you  need  rest  or  recreation.  Thej-  give  j-ou  a salary-  of 
$5.00  a week,  and  sometimes  thej'  give  a salarj-  of  $3.00  or  $4  00,  and 
think  they  give  you  big  wages,  because  3'ou  get  some  dark  little  room 
and  meals  you  are  too  tired  to  eat.  The}'  simpl}'  don’t  care  how  man}- 
hours  you  work  in  domestic  service. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


41 


Testimony  of  Proprietress  of  Disreputable  House  (Page  328) : 

Q.  Now,  Miss  Hall,  I want  you  to  state  to  this  Committee,  from 
the  depths  of  your  twenty-two  years  of  experience,  what  are  the  con- 
tributing causes  of  girls  going  astray,  what  it  is  the  effect  of,  as  you 
have  viewed  it,  during  those  twenty-two  years? 

THE  WITNESS:  My  opinion  is  that  it  is  low  wages,  and  girls 
are  thrown  out  on  the  world  without  a home.  They  haven’t  any  com- 
panionship, and  they  naturally  fall  into  prostitution  for  the  sake  of 
company  and  companionship.  If  they  are  servants  in  private  residences, 
they  have  very  hard  and  discouraging  treatment.  They  are  treated  as 
though  they  were  inhuman,  and  the  most  of  the  girls  fall  from  these 
causes,  simply  because  they  fall  into  prostitution  for  the  sake  of  com- 
panionship, and  getting  money  enough  to  eat.  They  haven’t  money 
enough  to  eat,  half  of  them,  when  they  try  to  get  along  and  pay  their 
own  expenses  on  the  wages  they  get  in  stores,  factories  and  offices. 
They  haven’t  enough  clothes  to  wear  to  make  a good  appearance  or  to 
be  comfortable.  When  girls  haven’t  enough  to  eat,  nor  clothing  to 
wear,  what  else  would  cause  them  to  fall  but  that?  I think  that  is 
exactly  why  nine  out  of  ten  go  astray.  Some  may  do  so  from  inclina- 
tion, being  simply  inclined  that  way;  but  the  number  is  not  large,  of 
that  class.  I think  that  nine  out  of  ten  fall  for  the  sake  of  companion- 
ship, clothing  and  food.  That  is  my  idea  of  the  principal  cause. 

Q.  You  have  talked  to  them  and  they  have  told  you  this  story, 
in  years  gone  by?  A.  Nine  out  of  every  ten  will  tell  you  that  has  been 
the  cause  in  their  case,  either  that,  or  bad  treatment  at  home.  Some- 
times the  home  surroundings  are  very  bad.  The  girls  haven’t  any  com- 
forts or  conveniences  at  home,  haven’t  any  ordinary  kindness  some- 
times, and  that  causes  them  to  wish  to  leave,  and  they  afterward  fall. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  M.  D.  Harding  (Page  704): 

There  is  a lot  of  these  girls  that  prefer  work  in  the  packing  houses 
to  doing  domestic  work.  It  is  almost  impossible  to  take  one  of  these 
girls  who  are  working  in  our  departments  and  get  them  to  accept  a 
position  as  a domestic.  They  prefer  to  have  their  evenings  to  them- 
.selves,  their  homes  to  themselves,  their  holidays  to  themselves;  they 
prefer  living  there,  as  they  do  in  the  stock  yards  district,  than  to  work- 
ing as  a domestic. 

Q.  Do  some  of  them  go  from  your  service  into  domestic  service? 
A.  I very  rarely  hear  of  it  if  they  do.  I have  tried  from  time  to  time 
to  get  them  to  leave  the  packing  house  for  some  of  our  officials  and 
some  of  our  friends  as  a domestic,  but  they  don’t  care  for  the  jobs; 
they  come  back  again  to  work.  * * * I kriow  it  is  an  impossible 

proposition  to  get  them  to  leave  us  and  go  to  work  at  domestic  work, 
because  I have  had  experience  in  that  direction;  I have  tried  to  get 
them  to  go  to  my  own  house. 

Q.  And  they  won’t  do  it?  A.  They  won’t  do  it;  they  want  tlieir 

evenings,  their  holidays  and  their  Sundays  to  themselves. 

« 

Q.  Do  they  talk  English?  A.  Some  few;  a large  percentage  do 


not. 


42 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


(5)  That  segregation  of  vice,  as  a system  of  municipal 
regulation,  is  an  entire  failure;  that  it  promotes  and  in- 
creases immorality;  that  it  spreads  practices  of  degener- 
acy; and,  being  an  open  toleration  of  law  violation,  ma- 
terially lessens  the  community  respect  for  law  and  order. 

Strangely,  among  the  citizens  of  Illinois,  as  of  her  sister  states, 
for  many  years  this  was  an  open  question.  Many,  honest  men  be- 
lieved that,  while  the  law  prohibited  vice,  the  low  demands  of  human 
nature  required  it ; and  for  the  presumed  protection  from  violence  of 
virtuous  women,  there  was  permitted  the  public  exploitation  of  their 
poorer  sisters,  whose  extremities  or  feeble-mindedness  might  lead  them 
to  the  sale  of  their  bodies.  As  the  women  thus  exploited  came  from 
the  very  poorest  groups,  as  has  been  seen,  the  system  of  segregation 
was,  at  the  best,  a heartless  sacrifice  of  the  weakest  in  the  presumed 
interest  of  the  strongest. 

In  1913,  when  your  committee  was  created  and  entered  upon  the 
discharge  of  its  work,  most  of  the  sizable  towns  of  Illinois  tolerated 
“red-light”  districts.  In  Chicago,  following  a campaign  of  Hon.  John 
W.  Wayman  while  state’s  attorney,  many  of  the  larger  houses  had 
closed,  but  the  smaller  ones  remained  open,  which,  with  the  undisturbed 
activities  of  cafes  and  hotels,  still  attracted  thousands  of  vice  patrons. 
In  Peoria,  Springfield,  Alton,  Rock  Island  and  over  a dozen  other 
cities  there  was  some  effort  at  regulation,  but  none  at  closure.  In 
February  of  1913  the  federal  white  slave  officials  reported  to  your 
committee  that  a survey  of  Illinois,  not  more  than  half  completed,  had 
shown  the  existence  of  houses  of  prostitution  in  East  St.  Louis,  Aurora, 
Bloomington,  Champaign,  Chicago  Heights,  Danville,  Elgin,  Freeport, 
Kankakee,  Ottawa,  Pekin  and  Peoria. 

In  the  three  years  that  have  elapsed,  public  opinion  has  cr}'Stalized 
against  segregation,  and  few  cities  in  Illinois  now  tolerate  the  presence 
of  moral  plague  spots.  It  is  probable  that  in  another  three  years  not 
a single  vice  district  will  remain  in  Illinois  to  recall  a system  of  tolera- 
tion general  throughout  the  commonwealth  when  the  Honorable  Senate 
undertook  the  study  and  investigation  of  vice  as  a state  responsibilit}'. 
Some  of  the  causes  of  the  reform  went  far  back,  to  the  educational 
pioneering  of  groups  of  citizens  who  had  always  opposed  the  stystem, 
to  the  publication  in  1911  of  the  findings  of  the  municipal  vice  commis- 
sions in  Minneapolis  and  Chicago,  and,  over  and  above  all,  to  the  prac- 
tical experiences  and  observations  of  the  residents  in  towns  tolerating 
open  prostitution. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


43 


Evidence  that  segregation  does  not  segregate;  that  scatteration  is 
the  accompanist,  not  the  successor,  of  vice  toleration;  that  crime,  de- 
generacy and  disease  invariably  are  its  tolls,  will  be  found  in  the  printed 
testimony.  Especial  attention  is  directed  to  the  testimony,  beginning 
on  page  190,  of  a young  woman,  who  attended  a large  number  of  men 
while  in  the  advanced  stages  of  one  of  the  most  frightful  of  the  venereal 
diseases.  She  was  an  inmate  of  one  of  the  highest-priced  houses  in  the 
Chicago  district.  She  possessed  a certificate  of  good  health,  which 
was  given  her  for  a price  by  a physician  who  knew  her  real  condition. 
The  essential  points  in  this  woman’s  story  were  subsequently  verified 
’ey  the  committee’s  investigators. 

Philadelphia  Report  ("Page  19): 

Segregation  is  ineffective — it  segregates  a small  minority  of  the 
sexually  vicious,  can  never  isolate  their  diseases,  and  promotes  rather 
than  reduces  clandestine  prostitution;  it  is  confiscatory — lowering 
values  of  properties  for  reputable  purposes;  it  is  anti-social — forcing 
the  families  of  the  poor  into  evil  associations;  it  is  uneconomic — rais- 
ing a crime  to  the  dignity  of  a business  through  concentration,  com- 
bination, and  publicity;  it  is  unethical — promoting  the  double  standard 
of  morality  by  the  erection  of  a female  lazaretto;  it  is  mal-administra- 
tive,  requiring  official  complicity  in  and  partnership  with  an  illegal 
pursuit  to  the  sure  debauching  of  police  morals;  it  is  inhuman — resting 
upon  the  assumption  that  prostitution  is  a natural  and  ineradicable 
feature  of  society.  So  far  as  we  know,  every  vice  commission  in  this 
country  has  unanimously  rejected  it  as  we  do  now.  It  is  neither  more 
nor  less  than  licensed  vice.  The  people  of  Philadelphia  may  not  know 
how  to  deal  with  prostitution,  but  of  one  thing  we  are  sure,  they  are 
not  going  to  say  “it  is  all  right  if  confined  to  certain  localities.’’  Some 
speak  of  “The  Social  Evil,’’  and  lay  the  emphasis  on  the  word  “social”; 
we  lay  it  on  the  word  “evil.” 

Wisconsin  Report  (Page  27)  : 

We  find  some  men  contending  that  the  segregated  district  is  the 
best  method  of  controlling  prostitution.  They  claim  that  prostitution 
is  a necessary  evil,  and  that  if  these  houses  did  not  exist,  respectable 
women  would  not  be  free  from  molestation  on  the  streets  at  night. 
This  argument  is  especially  urged  by  certain  residents  of  the  cities  and 
lakes,  on  account  of  the  numerous  sailors,  miners  and  lumbermen  who 
frequent  these  cities.  Testimony  before  this  Committee  secured  from 
some  of  the  leading  citizens  and  business  men  of  such  cities  supports 
this  contention,  while  other  business  men  most  strenuously  maintain 
that  such  a policy  is  untenable  and  dangerous.  The  great  mass  of 
opinion,  however,  is  absolutely  opposed  to  any  such  policy  of  segre- 
gation. Many  intelligent  and  socially  minded  men  and  women  all  over 
the  United  States  have  changed  their  point  of  view  in  regard  to  the 
segregation  of  vice.  Ten  years  ago  there  were  but  few  supporters  of 
the  fight  against  such  districts.  Even  the  greatest  leaders  in  social 
reform  believed  that  the  segregated  district  was  the  best  way  to  con- 


44 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


trol  a so-called  necessary  evil.  This  w-as  before  any  of  the  great 
investigations  had  been  made. 

Pittsburgh  Report  (Page  15): 

The  maintenance  of  a section  for  the  uses  of  commercialized  vice 
is  a menace  to  the  morals  of  all  classes,  but  is  particularly  injurious 
to  the  young  of  both  sexes.  Regulation  or  reglementation  of  any  kind 
is  not  only  in  direct  opposition  to  the  moral  ideals  of  an  American 
community,  but  offers  insurmountable  practical  difficulties  of  admin- 
istration. Houses  cf  prostitution  and  other  institutions  of  commercial- 
ized vice  being  forbidden  by  law,  their  toleration  is  a dangerous  source 
of  graft  and  corruption.  If  there  were  no  more  than  1,000  w'omen  in 
the  red-light  district  of  Pittsburgh,  and  if  their  average  career  be  five 
years,  it  is  clear  that  200  young  girls  must  fall  every  year  to  keep  up 
the  vast  supply  of  human  flesh.  A segregated  district  cannot  exist 
without  panders,  procurers  and  white-slavers  to  secure  recruits.  No 
justification,  either  physical  or  moral,  can  be  found  for  the  tolerance 
of  the  evil,  as  continence  is  entirely  compatible  with  health.  While 
virtue  cannot  be  enforced  by  legal  enactment,  the  law  can  and  should 
prevent  the  existence  and  promotion  of  commercialized  vice.  Having 
reached  this  conclusion,  the  Commission  is  driven  inevitably  to  recom- 
mend that  all  the  remaining  houses  of  prostitution  be  closed  without 
unnecessary  delay. 


(6)  That  many  women,  through  inability  to  live  on  the 
legitimate  means  at  their  disposal,  or  in  the  desire  of  sup- 
plementing allowances  by  husband  or  parent,  are  part  of 
a new  and  elaborate  network  of  vice,  known  as  the  “call- 
girl”  system;  that  the  system  is  rapidly  being  organized, 
and  fresh  girls  drawn  into  it  by  the  assurance  of  the  ease 
with  which  profitable  prostitution  may  be  practiced  with- 
out sacrifice  of  reputation  for  respectability. 

The  development  of  this  system,  which  strikes  more  directly  at  the 
home  than  any  of  the  other  activities  of  the  industry  of  commercialized 
immorality,  has  been  startling  in  the  cities  visited  by  your  committee 
and  in  others  where  its  investigators  conducted  inquiries.  Yet  so  little 
public  attention  has  leen  directed  to  it,  and  the  police  efforts  to  curb 
it  have  been  so  spasmodic  and  inadequate,  that  the  most  insidious  form 
of  prostitution  that  it  is  possible  for  the  imagination  to  conceive  has 
fastened  itself  upon  our  urban  communities  practically  unopposed. 
That  the  public  has  no  adequate  conception  of  the  new  problem,  and 
what  small  information  it  has  is  wonderfully  distorted,  accounts  in  part 
for  the  growth  of  the  system  to  its  present  proportions. 

Your  committee  is  of  opinion  that  the  system  could  not  have  rooted 
at  all  had  any  considerable  number  of  citizens  in  any  communiw  been 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


45 


accurately  informed  regarding  its  nature.  On  no  other  phase  of  the 
vice  question,  in  its  open  manifestations,  did  the  committee  find  exist- 
ing a greater  degree  of  civic  ignorance.  Even  among  some  close  stu- 
dents of  vice  activities  the  call  system  seemed  to  be  both  underesti- 
mated and  hopelessly  confused  with  the  old  system,  of  segregation.  The 
chief  misconception,  indeed,  is  that  the  new  system  is  merely  the  old 
system  existing  under  changed  conditions ; that,  as  the  segregated  dis- 
tricts are  being  closed,  their  inmates  are  flocking  into  the  residence 
districts  to  continue  in  secret  the  conduct  that  pre\  iously  they  followed 
in  the  open.  This  is,  however,  far  from  the  fact.  While  a few  may  be 
of  this  class — former  inmates  of  houses  in  vice  districts — most  of  the 
modern  “call-girls”  are  not  of  the  branded  prostitute  type.  A very  con- 
siderable percentage  belong  to  that  class  of  women  who  pass,  unques- 
tioned by  their  acquaintances  and  neighbors,  as  respectable. 

Testimony  of  John  H.  Underwood,  chief  of  police  (Page  589): 

Q.  Chief,  have  you  ever  heard  of  the  call  system  in  Springfield? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  known  that  it  existed  here?  A.  I have  heard  it  has; 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  there  were  girls  called  from  flats  and  hotels?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  And  some  of  those  girls  worked  in  the  daytime?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
some  of  them  were  also  married  women  about  the  home. 

Q.  And  they  were  a part  of  the  call  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

A detective  told  of  a “call.”  list  which  he  had  seized  in  a raid.  Over 
twenty  (20)  names  were  on  the  list;  first  names  only  being  given,  then 
opposite  the  telephone  numbers.  He  checked  up  the  names  and  num- 
bers. Some  of  the  women  were  “respectable”  married  women.  Two 
were  young  daughters,  one  of  the  fathers  being  “prominent,”  but  with 
a reputation  for  closeness.  Others  were  working  girls. 

Corroborative  testimony,  all  tending  to  reveal  the  existence  of  a 
system  which  went  into  the  homes  and  made  occasional  prostitutes  of 
wives  and  daughters,  was  introduced  in  other  cities  where  the  commit- 
tee held  sessions,  and  obtained  wherever  its  investigators  studied  local 
conditions.  There  was  very  little  evidence  connecting  this  system  with 
that  of  segregation.  The  class  of  women  was  almost  entirely  different. 
The  case  of  a young  mother  serving  as  “call-girl”  and  using  the  money 
she  made  in  buying  necessities  for  her  baby  is  merely  illustrative  of  the 
character  of  women  in  this  system,  the  motives  that  sometimes  actuate 
them  and  the  insidious  nature  of  the  whole  business  in  its  attack  on 
the  home. 

Testimony  of  Grace  Clybourn  (Page  578): 

* * * She  says  that  the  reason  that  room  wasn’t  occupied  was  be- 

cause she  couldn’t  find  any  girls,  couldn’t  get  any  girl  that  night. 

Q.  Couldn’t  get  any  girl  that  night?  A.  Couldn’t  get  any  girl  to 


46 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


call  up.  She  said  when  she  couldn’t  get  a girl  on  the  phone  she  went 
around  down  to  the  cafes  and  got  some  girls  that  sat  in  the  cafes. 

* * * She  said  she  did  that  when  girls  weren’t  home  that  she  called 

on  the  phone;  that  sometimes  when  they  would  leave  there  they  w’ould 
leave  their  number  so  that  they  could  be  called  up  at  a certain  place. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  mean  to  say,  madam,  that  this  w^oman  had  a list 
of  girls  here  in  Springfield  that  she  could  call  on  the  telephone  and  have 
come  to  serve  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Testimony  of  M M (Pages  579  and  580): 

* * * She  wanted  to  know  if  we  called  girls,  and  I stated  the 

facts  to  her.  * * * j told  her  that  if  we  ever  needed  her  w'e  would 

call  her.  * * * I gave  her  a card. 

Q.  This  is  the  card,  is  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

[THE  CARD] 

Lillian:  Call  this  little  girl  if  you  want  any 
one,  for  she  is  all  O.  K. 

. (Signed)  MAY. 

Q.  She  asked  you  if  you  called  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  did  you  understand  she  meant  by  that?  A.  I sup- 
pose she  meant,  did  she  call  a girl  to  meet  men  intimately. 

Q.  What  is  this  call  girl’s  system?  A.  All  I know'  is  that  they 
are  supposed  to  meet  fellows  w'hen  they  are  called  to  the  house;  that  is 
all  I know  about  the  thing. 

Q.  Now,  do  some  of  those  girls  that  are  “called,”  work  during  the 
day-time,  do  you  think?  A.  I think,  in  fact,  that  most  of  them  do. 

Q.  Most  of  them  work,  you  think?  A.  All  that  I know. 

Testimony  of  Rev.  John  R.  Golden  (Page  600): 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  the  call-girl  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  know'  about  that  system?  A.  Well,  two  men 
that  had  done  some  investigation  for  our  vigilance  committee  were 
instrumental  in  investigating  the  hotel  on  Monroe  street  just  oposite 
the  weather  bureau — I think  it  goes  by  the  name  of  the  Normal  Hotel — 
and  that  case  w'as  tried  in  the  circuit  court  recently,  and  the  ladj'  con- 
victed, and  our  man  had  visited  that  place  at  times  and  had  found  a 
lady  with  a call  list  of  girls . in  the  community  that  she  called  for 
service. 

Q.  Now,  did  these  men  tell  you  or  have  3-ou  knowledge  from  other 
sources  how  many  girls  and  women  are  involved  in  this  so-called  call 
system  in  Springfield?  A.  No;  it  would  be  onlj'  just  a guess,  though 
my  judgment,  from  the  information  I have  had  from  these  two  or  three 
men  that  served  on  my  committee,  I should  judge  the  list  is  quite 
large. 

Q.  In  this  system  are  girls  of  all  classes  involved?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  call  girl  sj'stem  is  the  greatest 
menace  to  your  city?  A.  I think  it  is. 

Q.  Greater  even  than  the  segregated  district?  A.  I think  so. 

To  understand  the  moral  problem  of  today,  it  is  necessart'  to  be 
familiar  with  the  call-girl  system,  its  genesis  and  the  causes  that 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


47 


have  led  to  its  rapid  development.  It  derives  its  name,  as  will  be 
readily  seen,  from  the  practice  of  “calling  in”  girls  from  their  own 
homes  for  temporary  service  at  an  immoral  resort,  generally  a hotel 
or  an  apartment.  In  the  early  days  of  the  system,  the  call-girls 
were  almost  exclusively  of  the  professional  prostitute  class.  Often 
they  were  “street-walkers”  when  not  “on  call.”  Sometimes  they 
were,  inmates  of  houses  in  the  segregated  districts  and  were  “let 
out,”  on  telephonic  request,  to  the  proprietors  of  resorts  that  were 
being  run  “on  the  quiet”  in  portions  of  the  city  outside  the  vice 
reservations.  The  difference  between  parlor-house  and  call-house 
did  not  extend  to  the  character  of  the  girls.  The  inmates  of  one 
served  the  patrons  of  the  other.  They  were  inmates  when  operat- 
ing in  the  districts  and  call-girls  when  operating  outside  the  dis- 
tricts. But  they  were  the  same  girls. 

How  the  two  systems  gradually  drew  apart,  and  the  “call-girl” 
menace  assumed  its  present  alarming  proportions,  quite  separate 
from  the  system  from  which  it  emanated,  is  not  difficult  to  trace. 
The  first  noticeable  transition  was  in  the  character  of  the  patrons 
of  the  call-house.  A guarantee  of  privacy,  which  the  parlor  house 
was  unable  to  afford,  attracted  a wealthier  and  more  prominent 
class  of  men.  Some  of  these  patrons  revolted  at  the  class  of  women. 
They  demanded  “respectable”  girls.  And  they  were  willing  to  pay 
the  price. 

This  was  the  beginning  of  the  call-girl  system,  as  it  exists  today 
— a more  or  less  organized  industry  of  colossal  proportions,  serv- 
ing “respectable”  men  with  “respectable”  girls,  and  protecting  the 
reputations  of  both.  How  many  thousands  of  girls  are  enmeshed  in  its 
toils,  your  Committee  is  not  in  position  to  state.  The  reports  of 
investigators,  however,  leave  no  doubt  that  the  number  is  very  large. 
Here  the  low  wage  received  by  working  girls  plays  a part  so  con- 
spicuous that  none  can  ignore  it  as  a vital  factor  in  this  insidious 
industry.  That  a large  majority  of  the  girls  on  “call  lists”  that 
have  been  discovered  are  in  employment  during  the  daytime  is  un- 
disputed. Some  of  them  are  thus  bridging  the  deficit  between  the 
wage  paid  them  and  the  cost  of  their  existence.  The  large  number 
of  “respectable”  married  women  who  respond  to  “calls”  is  another 
startling  sidelight  on  the  effect  of  the  low  wages  paid  to  the  heads  of 
households. 

Wisconsin  Report  (Pages  41  and  42) : 

Such  places  [call  houses]  are  conducted  by  a madam  who  main- 
tains a more  or  less  comfortable  place  of  meeting  for  men  and  women 
for  immoral  purposes.  Customers  are  secured  by  runners,  and  fre- 
quently there  is  a regular  clientele.  When  a customer  comes  to  such 
a place,  the  madam  permits  him  to  select  from  a list  of  women,  who 


48 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


are  at  her  disposal,  one  with  whom  he  is  especially  pleased  or  with  whom 
he  is  acquainted.  The  madam  then  calls  one  or  more  from  a neighbor- 
ing hotel  or  rooming  house,  or  even  home,  usually  by  means  of  the 
telephone.  Hence,  the  name  “call  house.”  In  this  type  of  prostitution, 
the  women  are  frequently  engaged  in  other  occupations,  and  supple- 
ment their  earnings  by  means  of  immoral  services.  * * * Such 
houses  are  usually  more  expensive  than  the  ordinary  parlor  house, 
catering  to  the  so-called  more  “respectable  men”  of  the  city.  [Report 
of  Investigator:  City  59.  Well  furnished  flat.  * * * Says  her 

woman  friends  bring  their  men  friends  in  here.  Are  office  girls.  Has 
a couple  of  married  women  friends  who  meet  men  friends  here  because 
thejr  need  to  make  extra  money.  Claims  those  who  frequent  her  place 
are  not  sporting  women.] 

Massachusetts  Report  (Page  14): 

The  “call  house”  is  usually  an  apartment  or  room  where  a man 
or  woman  arranges  over  the  telephone  for  the  meeting  of  the  pros- 
titute and  her  patron,  usually  in  some  other  house  or  apartment.  This 
is  a common  method  of  conducting  the  business  of  prostitution  in 
the  larger  cities  at  the  present  time.  A memorandum  book  containing 
the  names,  addresses  and  telephone  numbers  of  49  different  prostitutes 
was  found  in  one  “call  house.”  Several  of  the  addresses  given  were 
in  the  suburbs  or  near-by  towns.  Nearly  all  were  in  apartment  houses 
in  the  city  itself. 

Minneapolis  Report  (Page  74); 

An  interesting  as  well  as  significant  phase  of  the  Social  Evil  situ- 
ation in  Minneapolis  is  the  increasing  use  of  the  telephone  as  an  agencj' 
of  prostitution.  A similar  situation  is  reported  from  other  cities,  in- 
dicating clearly  that  the  telephone  is  one  of  the  most  important  factors 
at  work  in  all  our  large  communities  to  effect  a marked  change  in  the  con- 
ditions of  public  prostitutipn.  To  the  broad  opportunities  of  easy 
communication  offered  by  the  telephone  is  due,  in  notable  degree,  the 
passing  of  the  popularity  of  the  old  “Red  Light”  district  and  the 
growing  use  of  the  assignation  house  and  the  private  flat.  The  assig- 
nation houses  keep  in  touch  with  large  numbers  of  both  men  and 
women  by  means  of  the  telephone  and  offer  convenient  opportunity 
for  coming  together  without  publicity.  The  telephone  furnishes  the 
same  useful  medium  to  the  woman  in  the  private  flat  or  apartment 
house  to  reach  the  members  of  her  circle  of  intimates.  It  is  plain 
that  this  situation  must  work  to  create  new  conditions  in  the  social 
evil  field,  conditions  which  wull  inevitablj^  operate  against  the  old 
“Red  Light”  order.  In  the  opinion  of  your  Commission  the  tele- 
phone is  bound  to  become  an  increasing  rather  than  a diminishing 
factor  of  prostitution,  without  regard  to  the  citj'’s  policy  of  segrega- 
tion or  suppression.  Rightly  this  new  factor  must  be  given  atten- 
tion and  consideration  in  reaching  a conclusion  as  to  the  proper  policy 
to  be  recommended  for  Minneapolis. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


49 


(7)  That  lack  of  regulation  in  the  employment  of  girls 
subjects  them  to  unnecessary  perils,  and  often  leads  to 
their  downfall. 

Your  Committee  was  in  receipt  of  many  anonymous  letters  from 
girls,  detailing  experiences  in  the  search  for  employment,  and  after 
receiving  positions,  that  argued  eloquently  against  a system  of  per- 
mitting young,  inexperienced  girls  to  go  out  into  the  business  world, 
guided  solely  by  their  own  instincts  and  judgments.  Instances  were 
reported  by  the  Committee’s  investigators  of  young  women,  who  were 
summarily  discharged  from  their  positions  because  of  refusal  to 
accept  advances  ;and  of  others,  who  attributed  their  future  entry  into 
prostitution  to  an  initial  lapse  caused  through  fear  of  displeasing  an 
employer  and  thus  losing  necessary  employment.  This  evil  cannot 
and  should  not  be  minimized — the  evil  of  trusting  to  luck  in  the  matter 
of  a girl’s  industrial  surrounding.  If  it  be  necessary  that  she  leave 
the  home  atmosphere  during  the  formative  years  of  her  life,  there  is 
no  excuse  for  separating  her  entirely  from  some  protection  against 
undue  and  improper  pressure  in  the  new  atmosphere. 


(8)  That  many  women  of  the  underworld  are  re- 
deemed; and  that,  with  the  proper  treatment,  the  closing 
of  the  vice  districts  may  restore  a large  percentage  of  their 
inmates  to  decent  lives. 

No  question  is  inquired  into  more  seriously  than  that  of  redemp- 
tion. To  drive  erring  women  from  town  to  town,  to  break  down  the 
structures  of  their  calling  and  give  no  heed  to  their  succor,  is  too 
barren  of  the  element  of  human  sympathy  and  brotherhood  to  make 
strong  appeal  with  most  men  and  women  of  Illinois.  Your  Committee, 
from  the  outset,  went  extensively  into  this  phase  of  the  problem.  It 
ascertained  that  redemption  had  been  found,  not  only  possible,  but 
very  probable,  with  the  lessening  of  economic  pressure,  [generally 
through  a course  of  schooling  preparing  the  woman  to  earn  an  adequate 
wage],  and  an  absence  from  old  associations  long  enough  to  change 
their  influence.  Many  actual  cases  where  the  reformation  remained 
permanent  will  be  found  in  the  printed  testimony,  tl  is  sufficient  to 
justify  all  the  optimism  of  those  persons  whose  efforts,  expended  in 
that  direction,  have  often  met  with  the  ridicule  of  cynical  associates, 
who  erroneously  maintained  that  the  “bottomless  pit”  never  gave  up 
its  victims. 


50 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Testimony  of  Mrs.  Susan  B.  Adams  (Page  143): 

Q.  May  I ask,  madam,  if  after  your  ten  or  twelve  years’  experience 
in  this  kind  of  work,  you  think  that  a woman  can  be  redeemed  regard- 
less of  the  depth  to  which  she  has  fallen?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I do. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  Paul  B.  Cousley  (Page  802) : 

Q.  What  has  become  of  the  girls  who  were  formerly  employed  in 
these  places  (as  prostitutes)?  A.  Some  are  at  the  cartridge  plant. 

Q.  What  percentage  of  these  girls  would  you  say  are  now  honor- 
ably employed?  A.  It  is  hard  to  say.  I have  seen  a great  many  of 
them  in  the  evening  coming  home. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know,  they  are  now  honorably  supporting  them- 
selves? A.  Yes. 

Testimony  of  Mrs.  Sophia  DeMuth  (Page  803): 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  cases  where  the  women  have  been  re- 
deemed and  gone  into  honorable  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  cases?  A.  I know  a great  many  cases,  but  have 
never  kept  tab;  about  seventeen,  I should  say,  that  are  now  married 
and  doing  well. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  tried  to  put  these  women  in  respectable  homes 
as  domestics?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  tried  that?  A.  I have  had  two  re- 
turned, but  the  other  fifteen  have  been  satisfactory  and  have  made  good. 

Q.  Where  would  you  advise  sending  these  women,  if  the  women  in 
the  homes  will  not  take  and  keep  them?  A.  I would  suggest  that  the 
great  state  of  Illinois  have  a place,  a farm  or  some  place,  where  we  can 
put  them;  and  I think  90  per  cent  of  them  would  be  willing  to  go  and 
make  a change.  * * * j have  been  studying  this  for  twenty-five 

years,  and  I believe  that  is  what  we  need. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  John  McAdams  (Page  800): 

I think  if  some  place  were  owned  by  the  state,  or  there  were  some 
institution  to  take  them  to,  they  would  be  glad  to  go  to  it.  I know  of 
one  of  the  most  notorious  characters  we  had  in  Alton,  when  the  laws 
were  enforced,  went  out  of  business  entirely.  She  was  married  to  a 
man  in  Alton. 

Q.  What  is  she  doing  now?  A.  Living  here  now,  as  far  as  any- 
body knows,  a straight  life;  but  under  the  other  conditions  she  was 
given  all  the  leeway  she  wanted. 

Q.  You  wish  the  committee  to  understand  that  her  marriage  and 
redemption  were  brought  about  by  the  closing  of  her  house?  A.  I 
think  so. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  Joseph  J.  Mullen  (Page  794): 

Q.  Do  you  wish  the  committee  to  understand  that  in  Alton  you 
have  redeemed  those  two  girls  at  least  from  lives  of  shame  by  closing 
the  vice  district?  A.  Yes,  I think  so. 

Q.  We  are  dealing  in  facts.  Can  the  committee  accurately  report 
to  the  Legislature  that  the  city  of  Alton  has  redeemed  some  of  the  girls 
formerly  in  the  segregated  district?  A.  Well,  I know’  of  those  two; 
there  are  probably  others. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


51 


(9)  That  the  sale  of  intoxicants,  in  connection  with 
public  dancing,  is  unquestionably  in  many  cases  a strong 
contributory  cause  of  vice. 

The  effects  produced  by  strong  intoxicants  are  not  dissimilar  to 
those  springing  from  over-work  and  under-nourishment.  According 
to  medical  authorities,  there  is  an  unnatural  craving  of  the  nervous 
system,  and  a general  weakening  of  the  will  power.  That  intoxicants 
play  a conspicuous  part  in  the  undoing  of  many  girls  is  a matter  of 
general  knowledge,  so  adequately  covered  in  previous  reports  and  in 
the  records  of  our  courts  as  to  require  no  further  elaboration.  The 
whole  tendency  in  prostitution  may  briefly  be  said  to  encourage  more 
or  less  unrestrained  drinking. 

There  can  be  no  disagreement  as  to  the  probable  effect  on  the 
young  woman  of  the  alternate  drinking  and  dancing  as  practiced  in 
a number  of  fashionable  restaurants.  The  free  and  easy  manner  of 
introductions,  in  some  places  an  employe  being  delegated  to  see  that 
everyone  gets  acquainted,  adds  to  the  danger.  Most  of  the  girls  who 
frequent  the  most  popular  of  the  restaurants  given  over  to  dancing 
are  very  young. 

(10)  That  the  highest  standard  of  morals  exists 
among  the  girls  in  the  high  schools,  colleges  and  univer- 
sities of  the  state. 

Your  committee,  in  the  course  of  its  long  inquiry,  has  run  to 
earth  not  a few  rumors  of  misconduct  on  the  part  of  school-girls. 
Invariably  they  were  ascertained  to  be  without  truth.  Typical  was 
the  rumor  that  in  the  high-school  of  a certain  middle-sized  city 
eight  girls  had  been  forced  to  leave  their  classes  in  one  year  be- 
cause of  moral  delinquencies.  On  investigation,  it  was  learned  by 
your  committee  that  not  one  girl  had  left  the  school  for  any  reason 
during  the  period  named,  and  that  the  morale  in  this  particular 
school  was  a matter  of  marked  pride  with  the  school  authorities. 
Similar  rumors,  all  built  on  the  same  pattern,  rested  on  no  firmer 
foundation. 

That  the  chance  of  becoming  enmeshed  in  the  industry  of  pros- 
stitution  diminishes  with  the  length  of  the  schooling  is  incontro- 
vertibly  proved  by  the  statistics  of  courts  and  police  offices.  Ade- 
quate schooling  would,  therefore,  appear  the  surest  escape  from 
the  conditions  of  poverty  that  this  committee  has  found  constitute 
the  principal  direct  cause  of  prostitution. 


RECOMMENDATIONS  OF  REMEDIAL  MEASURES. 


Your  Committee  respectfully  recommends: 

(1)  The  immediate  enactment  of  a minimum  wage 
law,  prohibiting  the  payment  of  less  than  a living  wage 
to  any  woman,  or  minor,  except  during  a period  of  ap- 
prenticeship not  exceeding  six  months. 

This  is  the  first  duty  of  the  state.  Many  thousands  of  girls  in 
Illinois,  it  has  been  clearly  and  undeniably  shown,  work  for  less  than 
a living.  To  remove  the  deficit  between  cost  of  living  and  income 
from  service  is  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature.  Until  it  is  done,  until 
every  woman  who  has  to  work  is  assured  of  the  minimum  of  a rea- 
sonable living,  the  state  has  not  only  fallen  far  short  of  the  legitimate 
demands  of  plain  justice,  but  has  failed  to  deal  with  a situation  in 
economics  interminably  interwoven  with  deep  moral  problems. 

After  nearly  three  years  of  study  and  inquiry,  seeking  statistics 
and  viewpoints,  reducing  arguments  to  mathematics,  applying  accepted 
rules  of  economics  and  logic,  your  Committee  is  arrived  at  the  firm 
conclusion  that  the  enactment  of  the  proposed  minimum  wage  law  is 
the  essential  initial  step  in  the  intelligent  treatment  of  the  problems 
under  survey. 


(2)  The  repeal  of  all  laws  that  have  fallen  into  dis- 
use, and  the  strict  enforcement  of  all  others.  A perma- 
nent committee  on  law  enforcement  recommended. 

In  laws  prohibitory  of  immoral  and  indecent  conduct,  Illinois  is 
entitled  to  foremost  rank  among  her  sister  states.  This  Committee, 
indeed,  has  discovered  no  offense  against  good  morals  that  could  not 
adequately  be  reached  by  existing  statutes.  A complete  digest  of 
these  laws  has  been  arranged  b}'  your  Committee,  and  will  be 
found,  together  with  such  recommendations  in  connection  thereto 
as  to  your  Committee  seems  advisable,  elsewhere  in  this  report. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


53 


With  the  exception  of  some  few  minor  changes,  and  perhaps  the 
strengthening  of  the  penalty  here  and  there,  the  laws  of  Illinois,  as 
they  now  stand,  are  sufficient  to  deal  with  the  effects  and  open 
manifestations  of  immorality  and  prostitution.  [For  illustration,  see 
report  of  situation  in  Alton,  under  law  enforcement,  beginning  on  Page 
789.] 

No  community  is  wholly  law-respecting  unless  all  the  laws  of 
: that  community  are  strictly  enforced.  To  restore  absolute  respect 
of  law  in  Illinois,  your  Committee  earnestly  recommends  the  repeal 
of  all  statutes  that  have  been  outgrown  or  have  fallen  into  universal 
! disfavor.  There  should  be  no  deadwood  among  the  laws  that  citi- 
i zens  are  presumed  to  know  and  follow.  Every  session  of  the 
Legislature  witnesses  the  addition  of  many  laws,  and  very  few  re- 
; peals.  The  situation  may  with  perfect  propriety  be  reversed  at 
least  once. 

To  this  end  your  Committee  urges  that,  at  the  convening  of  the 
1 next  General  Assembly,  a committee  be  created  for  the  purpose  of 
I visiting  the  various  counties  of  the  State,  ascertaining  to  what  ex- 
tent existing  laws  are  being  enforced  by  local  officials,  and  if  un- 
enforced, the  reason  therefor ; that  such  committee  make  report  to 
the  General  Assembly,  recommending  the  repeal  of  all  laws  that 
seem  impossible  of  enforcement  and  making  specific  statement  of 
the  circumstances  of  non-enforcement  in  other  instances.  This 
committee,  in  the  opinion  of  your  present  Committee,  might  ad- 
visedly become  one  of  the  permanent  standing  committees  of  the 
Legislature ; conducting  its  investigations  biennially  and  reporting 
back  a complete  and  accurate  statement  of  the  condition  of  law 
enforcement,  as  it  finds  it,  in  the  various  sections  of  the  State. 

Strict  enforcement  of  the  law,  repeal  of  all  laws  unenforced  should 
be  a State  policy  of  importance  above  all  others. 

(3)  The  encouragement  of  joint  action  by  the  states, 
looking  toward  uniform  state  legislation. 

A congress  of  legislative  committees,  acting  in  an  advisary 
capacity  on  matters  of  distinctly  State  legislation,  would  unques- 
tionably exert  a beneficial  influence  in  making  uniform  the  enact- 
ments of  the  sister  states.  This  movement,  long  recognized  as 
essential  in  the  handling  of  moral  problems  as  divorce  and  in- 
dustrial problems  as  minimum  wage,  was  responsible  for  the  crea- 
tion of  a joint  committee  for  this  purpose  by  the  Forty-ninth  Gen- 
eral Assembly.  Under  the  recent  ruling  of  the  Supreme  Court,  the 
committee,  if  it  should  serve,  would  have  its  own  expenses  to  de- 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


fray  and  no  official  standing.  It  might,  however,  properly  act,  as  a 
group  of  individuals,  and  report  to  the  next  General  Assembly,  as 
requested.  Whether  this  committee  should  be  active  or  inactive, 
the  movement  toward  uniform  State  legislation  should  not  be  per- 
mitted to  die. 


(4)  Improvement  of  the  condition  of  girls  in  domes- 
tic service,  and  of  girls  from  homes  offering  inadequate 
social  opportunities,  by  the  opening  of  school  houses  and 
all  other  available  public  buildings  as  social  centers ; hours 
of  labor  of  girls  in  domestic  employment  to  be  regulated 
to  permit  of  participation. 

The  matter  of  the  regulation  of  the  hours  of  domestic  employment 
is  a proper  topic  for  discussion  by  the  Woman’s  Legislative  Congress, 
whose  recommendations,  your  Committee  believes,  would  find  weight 
with  the  members  of  the  Honorable  Senate.  In  the  face  of  the  startling 
conditions,  mentioned  in  your  Committee’s  findings,  the  women  cannot 
continue  to  be  blind  to  the  necessity  of  some  regulation  of  hours  and 
conditions.  That  the  greatest  moral  danger  lurks  in  the  employment 
where  there  is  the  least  attempt  at  regulation  is  a condition  speaking  for 
itself. 

(5)  Establishment  of  homes  for  the  adequate  moral 
and  industrial  schooling  of  women  during  the  period  of 
reformation. 

(6)  Extension  of  vocational  education  in  the  public 
schools. 

(7)  Abolition  of  the  obnoxious  fining  system  in  the 
treatment  of  immoral  women  convicted  in  the  courts. 

(8)  Registration  of  all  girls  under  18  and  of  boys 
under  21,  in  employment;  notice  of  engagement  and  of 
discharge,  and  reason  therefor,  mandatory  on  both  em- 
ployer and  employe.  A woman,  under  the  state  factory 
inspector,  to  investigate,  without  publication,  all  com- 
plaints against  moral  conditions. 


Findings  and  Recommendations 


55 


(9)  Newspapers  and  all  other  publications  of  gen- 
eral circulation  prohibited  from  printing  and  circulating 
the  details  of  any  breach  of  promise,  divorce  or  other  pro- 
ceeding in  which  moral  lapse,  or  immoral  conduct,  is 
charged,  until  final  adjudication  has  been  had  in  the  trial 
court;  and  then,  such  publication  to  be  restricted  to  an 
unvarnished  statement  of  the  charge  and  the  finding  of 
the  court. 

The  literature  of  modern  times,  with  the  average  reader,  is  the  daily 
and  weekly  newspaper.  The  paper  is  read  by  all  the  members  of  the 
family.  It  cannot  usually  be  hidden  from  or  denied  the  growing  boys 
and  girls.  No  one  will  question  the  harmful  impression  on  the  im- 
mature mind  of  the  narrated  details  of  moral  erring,  as  recorded  in 
connection  with  divorce,  and  similar  proceedings.  Without  the  slight- 
est infringement  on  the  liberty  of  the  press,  a much  needed  reforma- 
tion in  this  regard  may  easily  be  accomplished. 


(10)  Creation  of  a state  athletic  commission  for  the 
encouragement  of  healthy  and  non-professional  sports 
and  pastimes. 

As  a counter  influence  to  dance  halls,  poolrooms  and  other  places 
indoors  where  either  girls  or  boys,  or  both,  are  attracted,  your  Com- 
mittee recommends  the  encouragement  by  the  state  of  all  manner  of 
sports,  pastimes  and  athletics.  A state  commission,  actively  engaged 
in  instructing  boys  and  girls  in  the  various  games,  organizing  them 
into  teams,  arranging  inter-urban,  inter-county  and  finally  inter-sec- 
tional contests,  would,  in  the  judgment  of  your  Committee,  prove  an 
invaluable  factor. 

(Further  recommendations  of  the  Committee  will  be 
found  in  the  section  on  the  working  of  the  laws  of  Illinois, 
immediately  following.) 


I 


‘C 


■( 

J. 


■ i’i 


i 


PRESENT  LAWS: 

THEIR  PERFECTIONS 
AND  IMPERFECTIONS 

A careful  and  complete  digest  of  the  laws  of  Illinois 
bearing  on  the  subjects  embraced  in  the  Committee’s 
inquiry ; together  with  an  analysis  of  certain  decisions  of 
the  Supreme  Court,  and  a history  of  legislation  tending 
toward  the  removal  of  poverty  and  the  improvement  of 
industrial  conditions. 


t'i.. 


/ 


/ 


i 


( 

<1 


\ 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


59 


I I.  LAWS  IN  GENERAL. 

I Many  civil  laws  of  importance  that  prevail  in  certain  countries 
bear  but  little  resemblance  to  laws  regarding  the  same  subjects  in 
many  other  sovereignties.  This  is  occasioned  by  dissimilarity  of 
conditions.  National  regulations,  whether  established  by  statute 
or  by  long  continued  custom,  should  in  every  country  be  consistent 
with  conditions  obtaining  within  its  own  boundaries.  They  should 
be  measured  to  fit  internal  resources  and  to  preserve  national  traits 
and  character,  be  constructed  according  to  familiar  and  cherished 
standards,  be  shaped  to  subserve  the  best  interests  of  domestic  em- 
ployments, industries  and  enterprises ; and  those  that  are  peculiarly 
adapted  to  promote  the  welfare  of  one  people  may  be  materially 
inadequate  to  secure  the  prosperity  of  another. 

Seas  need  not  separate  territories  thus  differently  eircumstanced. 
Not  all  of  the  civil  laws  that  favorably  obtain  in  Maine  or  Texas 
would  harmonize  with  conditions  prevalent  in  either  Maryland  or 
Illinois. 

As  a whole,  the  criminal  code  of  any  country  differs  far  less  from 
the  generality  of  its  class  than  is  true  in  the  case  of  codes  having  no 
application  to  public  wrongs.  In  every  age  the  wicked,  the  evil 
and  the  criminal  have  been  present  in  every  clime  and  every  juris- 
diction. Primeval  justice  has  expanded,  every  century  has  brought 
to  most  legitimate  pursuits  new  and  improved  methods,  but  mur- 
der, rape,  robbery  and  their  kin  have  not  been  touched  by  time. 
Those  of  today  are  identical  in  atrocity  and  viciousness  with  those 
first  committed.  In  every  particular  they  have  remained  as  un- 
changed as  the  sun. 

Sin  and  crime  have  always  been  cosmopolites.  Like  virtue  and 
justice,  they  have  been  at  home  in  every  land.  The  nature  of  cli- 
mate and  the  character  of  soil  are  matters  of  absolute  inconse- 
quence. There  is  no  choice  between  zones,  not  any  between  prairie 
and  desert,  none  between  rich  upland  and  a sterile  coast. 

The  universality  of  crime  and  its  imperviousness  to  everything 
that  may  affect  or  influence  honest  callings  will  account  for  a closer 
likeness  between  any  two  criminal  codes  than  can  be  found  in  the 
case  of  the  civil  codes  of  any  two  countries  reasonably  distant  apart. 
No  nation  or  commonwealth  having  humane  penal  laws  would  will- 
ingly substitute  the  criminal  code  of  a eountry  or  state  in  which 
punishment  for  certain  crimes  and  misdemeanors  would  seem  to  be 
excessive,  but  nevertheless  the  fundamental  reasons  for  the  pre- 
I vention  and  punishment  of  crime  are  the  same  in  Japan  as  in 
Australia,  in  Austria  as  in  Illinois. 

I An  abhorrence  of  many  acts  burns  with  an  unquenchable  in- 
; tensity  in  every  honest  heart.  This  is  true  of  every  quarter  of  the 
' globe.  These  acts,  so  repugnant  and  shocking  to  mankind  in  gen- 
I eral,  have  from  time  immemorial  been  treated  as  crimes  wherever 
I civilization  has  been  in  the  ascendant. 

j There  will  always  be  conflict  of  opinion  in  every  sovereignty 
I respecting  capital  punishment,  will  never  be  perfect  accord  con- 


60  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

cerning  the  machinery  of  criminal  courts,  will  always  be  divisions 
and  subdivisions  in  regard  to  the  enactment  of  penal  statutes  touch- 
ing conduct  that  violates  no  moral  law,  but  among  the  people  of 
every  state  and  nation  there  will  ever  be  general  demand  that  many 
crimes  should  be  severely  punished. 

There  is  another  popular  demand.  It  is  a call  for  justice.  It 
is  an  insistence  that  an  employer  should  pay  a fair  wage  to  his 
employe.  Cry  for  this  justice  is  neither  circumscribed  by  political 
boundaries  nor  fettered  by  local  conditions  or  prejudices.  It  is 
spontaneous  and  is  as  widespread  as  the  universe. 

II.  CRIMINAL  CODE  OF  ILLINOIS. 

General  Remarks. 

The  unrepealed  sections  embodied  in  the  Revised  Statutes  of 
Illinois,  civil  and  criminal,  number  about  11,000.  Of  these,  more 
than  700  are  embraced  in  the  criminal  code,  and  approximately  800 
others  relate  directly  or  indirectly  to  public  or  quasi  public  wrongs. 

The  criminal  code  covers  a broad  field.  The  number  of  its  de- 
fined crimes  and  misdemeanors,  when  added  to  that  of  the  offenses 
proscribed  by  the  800  allies  mentioned  would  seem  to  be  sufficiently 
numerous  to  cover  every  conceivable  offense  reasonably  punish- 
able. Some  of  the  minor  proscriptions  might  doubtless  be  culled 
without  loss. 

Without  such  elimination  the  criminal  code  and  its  adjuncts 
must  necessarily  be  augmented  owing  to  new  conditions  arising 
and  also  to  old  conditions  thitherto  uncovered  by  statute.  It  is 
probable  too,  that  amplification  and  additions  must  be  made  in  the  ' 
case  of  the  civil  code,  this  being  especially  true  of  the  chapters  de- 
voted to  domestic  relations  and  kindred  subjects. 

Whatever  such  changes  may  be  made,  however,  certain  it  is 
that  they  may  be  effected  without  increase  either  of  the  total  num- 
ber of  statutes  now  in  operation  or  of  the  size  of  the  single  volume 
containing  them.  In  fact,  extensive  additions  might  be  made  at 
every  session  of  the  general  assembly  for  the  next  twenty  years, 
and  the  volume  of  Revised  Statutes  to  be  published  at  the  end  of 
that  period  still  be  of  less  bulk  than  the  one  now  in  use,  it  being 
notorious  that  hundreds  of  present  sections  of  the  civil  code  and 
many  of  the  penal  sections  form  a hotchpotch,  a worthless  stew  of 
surplusage,  verbiage  and  antiquarianism. 

L^pon  the  whole,  barring  the  death  penalty  and  that  of  the 
whipping  post,  the  criminal  system  of  Illinois  does  not  differ  ma- 
terially from  that  of  any  other  American  state.  The  criminal  code 
defines  a felony  as  an  offense  punishable  with  death  or  by  impris-  • 
onment  in  the  penitentiary.  Ever}’  other  offense  defined  and  pro-  ’ 
hibited  is  declared  to  be  a misdemeanor ; and  it  is  expressly  pro-  i 
vided  that  “where  the  performance  of  an}*  act  is  prohibited  by  any  ; 
statute,  and  no  penalty  for  the  violation  of  such  statute  is  im- 
posed, the  doing  of  such  act  is  a misdemeanor,  and  may  be  pun-  ■ 
ished  by  fine  not  exceeding  $100,  or  imprisonment  in  the  county 
jail  not  exceeding  six  months,  or  both,  in  the  discretion  of  the 
court.” 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


61 


Murder,  rape,  kidnaping  and  certain  other  crimes  are  classed 
as  infamous,  and  every  person  convicted  of  any  such  “shall  forever 
thereafter  be  rendered  incapable  of  holding  any  office  of  honor, 
trust  or  profit,  or  voting  at  any  election,  or  serving  as  a juror,  un- 
less he  or  she  is  again  restored  to  such  rights  by  the  terms  of  a 
pardon  for  the  oft'ense,  or  otherwise  according  to  law.” 

The  statutes  aimed  at  offenses  against  the  persons  of  indi- 
viduals, and  those  designed  to  cover  offenses  against  chastity, 
morality  and  decency — the  latter  being  those  pertinent  to  the  sub- 
ject of  this  inquiry — are  both  numerous  and  far  reaching;  and  it 
is  not  a violent  presumption  that  a common  sense  interpretation 
and  a rigid  enforcement  of  such  laws  would  minimize  the  acquittals 
of  persons  guilty  of  such  offenses  The  sections  noted  in  the  synop- 
sis that  follows,  when  given  without  reference  to  chapter,  are  those 
I of  the  criminal  code. 

ij  Rape. 

Every  person  convicted  of  rape  shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  peni- 
I tentiary  for  a term  of  not  less  than  one  year  and  which  may  extend 
, to  life.  Every  person  of  seventeen  and  upwards  who  shall  have 
! carnal  knowledge  of  a female  person  under  sixteen  and  who  is  not 
his  wife  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  rape  notwithstanding  her  con- 
[ sent  to  the  intercourse.  Section 

Assault  with  intent  to  commit  rape  is  punishable  by  imprison- 
ment in  the  penitentiary  for  not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than 
fourteen  years.  Section  2^. 

I Immoral  and  Indecent  Liberties  with  Children. 

j Every  person  of  seventeen  and  upwards  who  shall  take,  or  at- 
I tempt  to  take,  any  immoral,  improper  or  indecent  liberties  with 
any  child  of  either  sex  under  fifteen,  with  the  intent  of  arousing, 
appealing  to  or  gratifying  the  lust  or  passions  or  sexual  desires, 
either  of  such  person  or  of  such  child,  or  of  both  such  person  and 
child,  or  who  shall  commit  or  attempt  to  commit,  any  lewd  or 
lascivious  act  upon  or  with  the  body,  or  any  part  or  member  there- 
of, of  such  child,  with  the  intent  of  arousing,  appealing  to  or  grati- 
fying the  lust  or  passions  or  sexual  desires,  either  of  such  person  or 
of  such  child,  or  of  both  such  person  and  child,  or  any  such  person 
who  shall  take  any  such  child  or  shall  entice,  allure  or  persuade 
any  such  child,  to  any  place  whatever  for  the  purpose  either  of 
I taking  any  such  immoral,  improper  or  indecent  liberties  with  such 
^ child,  with  said  intent,  or  of  committing  any  such  lewd  or  lasciv- 
ious act  upon  or  with  the  body,  or  any  part  or  member  thereof, 
of  such  child  with  said  intent,  shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  peniten- 
tiary not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than  twenty  years.  Section 
42  ha. 

Incest. 

Every  father  who  shall  licentiously  cohabit  with  his  daughter 
shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary  for  a term  not  exceeding 
twenty  years.  Section  156.  Marriages  between  parents  and  chil- 
dren, including  grandparents  and  grandchildren  of  every  degree. 


62  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

between  brothers  and  sisters  of  the  half,  as  well  as  of  the  whole 
blood,  between  uncles  and  nieces,  aunts  and  nephews,  and  between 
cousins  of  the  first  degree  are  prohibited  and  are  declared  to  be  in- 
cestuous and  void,  the  provisions  of  the  section  applying  to  illegit- 
imate as  well  as  legitimate  children  and  relatives.  Persons  so  pro- 
hibited who  shall  intermarry  with  each  other,  or  who  shall  commit 
adultery  or  fornication  with  each  other,  or  who  shall  lewdly  and 
lasciviously  cohabit  with  each  other,  shall  be  imprisoned  in  the 
penitentiary  not  exceeding  ten  years.  Section  i^J. 

Abduction. 

Whoever  entices  or  takes  away  any  unmarried  female  of  a 
chaste  life  and  conversation  from  the  parents’  home,  or  wherever  she 
may  be  found,  for  the  purpose  of  prostitution  or  concubinage,  and 
whoever  aids  and  assists  in  such  abduction  for  such  purpose,  shall 
be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than  one  nor  more  than 
ten  years.  Section  i. 

Kidnaping. 

Whoever  wilfully  and  without  lawful  authority  forcibly  or  se- 
cretly confines  or  imprisons  any  other  person  within  this  state 
against  his  (or  her)  will,  or  forcibly  carries  or  sends  such  person 
out  of  the  state,  or  forcibly  seizes  or  confines,  or  inveigles,  or  kid- 
naps any  other  person,  with  the  intent  to  cause  such  person  to  be 
secretly  confined  or  imprisoned  in  this  state  against  his  (or  her) 
will,  or  to  cause  such  person  to  be  sent  out  of  the  state  against  his 
(or  her)  will  shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary  not  exceeding 
five  years,  or  fined  $1,000,  or  both.  Section  i66. 

Enticing  Unmarried  Women  and  Girls  to  Enter  Certain  Premises 

or  to  Leave  the  State. 

Whoever  within  this  state  shall,  by  or  under  any  false  pretense, 
entice,  induce  or  procure  any  unmarried  female  of  a chaste  life  and 
conversation,  residing  or  being  in  this  state,  to  enter  a house  of 
prostitution,  or  any  dance  house,  garden  or  premises  where  prosti- 
tution, fornication  or  concubinage  is  practiced  or  allowed  in  this 
state,  is  subject  to  imprisonment  in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than 
one  year  nor  more  than  ten  years ; and  the  same  penalty  attaches 
in  case  one  so  induces  or  procures  such  girl  or  woman  to  leave  this 
state  and  go  elsewhere,  either  to  another  American  state  or  to  a 
foreign  country,  and  so  enter  any  of  such  places.  V hoever  aids, 
assists  or  abets  the  principal  offender  is  equally  liable  with  him. 
Section 

Detention  in  House  of  Prostitution. 

Whoever  shall  unlawfully  detain  or  confine  any  female,  by  force, 
false  pretense  or  intimidation,  in  any  room,  house,  building  or  prem- 
ises, against  her  will,  for  purposes  of  prostitution  or  with  intent  to 
cause  her  to  become  a prostitute,  and  be  guilty  of  fornication  or 
concubinage  therein,  or  shall  by  force,  false  pretense,  confinement 
or  intimidation  attempt  to  prevent  any  female  so  detained  from 
leaving  such  place,  is  subject  to  imprisonment  in  the  penitentiary 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


63 


not  less  than  one  nor  more  than  ten  years.  Whoever  aids,  assists 
or  abets  in  such  detention  is  subject  to  the  same  penalty.  Section 

57c. 

Detaining  Against  Will  in  House  of  Ill-Fame. 

Whoever  shall  by  any  means  keep,  hold  or  detain  against  her 
will  or  restrain,  any  female  person  in  a house  of  prostitution  or 
other  place  where  prostitution  is  practiced  or  allowed,  or  whoever 
shall,  directly  or  indirectly,  keep,  hold,  detain  or  restrain,  or  attempt 
to  keep,  hold,  detain  or  restrain,  in  any  house  of  prostitution  or 
other  place  where  prostitution  is  practiced  or  allowed,  any  female 
person,  by  any  means,  for  the  purpose  of  compelling  such  female 
person,  directly  or  indirectly,  to  pay,  liquidate  or  cancel  any  debt, 
dues  or  obligations  incurred  or  said  to  have  been  incurred  by  such 
female  person,  shall,  upon  conviction,  for  the  first  offense  under 
this  act  be  punished  by  imprisonment  in  the  county  jail  or  house 
of  correction  for  a period  of  not  less  than  six  months  nor  more  than 
one  year,  and  by  a fine  of  not  less  than  three  hundred  dollars  and 
not  to  exceed  one  thousand  dollars,  and  upon  conviction  for  any 
subsequent  offense  under  this  act  shall  be  punished  by  imprison- 
ment in  the  penitentiary  for  a period  of  not  less  than  one  year  nor 
more  than  five  years.  Section  57  k. 

Allowing  Girl  Under  Eighteen  to  Live  in  House  of  Ill-Fame. 

Whoever,  being  the  keeper  of  a house  of  prostitution  or  assig- 
nation house,  building  or  premises  in  this  state  where  prostitution, 
fornication  or  concubinage  is  allowed  or  practiced,  shall  suffer  or 
permit  any  unmarried  female  under  the  age  of  eighteen  years,  to 
live,  board,  stop  or  room  in  such  house,  building  or  premises,  shall, 
on  conviction,  be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than  one 
year  nor  more  than  five  years.  Section  57  d. 

Enticing  Girl  to  Come  Into  State  for  Certain  Purposes. 

Whoever  shall  entice,  induce  or  procure  to  come  into  this  state, 
any  unmarried  female  under  the  age  of  eighteen  years,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  prostitution,  fornication  or  concubinage,  or  to  enter  any 
house  of  prostitution  in  this  state,  shall,  on  conviction,  be  impris- 
oned in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than  five 
years.  Section  57  e. 

Bigamy  or  Polygamy. 

Whoever,  having  a former  husband  or  wife  living,  marries  an- 
other person,  or  continues  to  cohabit  with  such  second  husband  or 
wife  in  this  state,  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  bigamy,  and  be  impris- 
oned in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than  one  nor  more  than  five  years, 
and  fined  not  exceeding  one  thousand  dollars : Provided,  nothing 
herein  contained  shall  extend  to  any  person  whose  husband  or  wife 
shall  have  been  continually  absent  from  such  person  for  the  space 
of  five  years  altogether,  prior  to  said  second  marriage,  and  he  or 
she  not  knowing  such  husband  or  wife  to  be  living  within  that  time. 
Section  28. 

If  any  man  or  woman  being  unmarried  shall  knowingly  marry 


64 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


the  husband  or  wife  of  another,  or  continue  to  cohabit  with  such 
husband  or  wife  in  this  state,  such  man  or  woman  shall  be  fined 
not  more  than  five  hundred  dollars,  or  confined  in  the  county  jail 
not  exceeding  one  year,  or  both,  in  the  discretion  of  the  court. 
Section  30. 

Abortion. 

Whoever,  by  means  of  any  instrument,  medicine,  drug  or  other 
means  whatever,  causes  any  woman,  pregnant  with  child,  to  abort 
or  miscarry,  or  attempts  to  procure  or  produce  an  abortion  or  mis- 
carriage, unless  the  same  were  done  as  necessary  for  the  preserva- 
tion of  the  mother’s  life,  shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary 
not  less  than’ one  year  nor  more  than  ten  years;  or  if  the  death  of 
the  mother  results  therefrom,  the  person  procuring  or  causing  the 
abortion  or  miscarriage  shall  be  guilty  of  murder.  Section  5. 

Pandering. 

Sections  57  g,  57  h and  57  i relate  to  the  pimp  and  the  procuress, 
with  but  one  exception  the  most  abominable  of  creatures.  The 
main  section  (57  g)  makes  any  one  of  thirteen  different  acts  punish- 
able by  confinement  in  the  county  jail  or  house  of  correction  for 
not  less  than  six  months  nor  more  than  one  year  and  by  fine  of  not 
less  than  $300  nor  in  excess  of  $1,000  for  the  first  offense.  The 
penalty  for  any  subsequent  violation  of  the  act  is  fixed  at  imprison- 
ment in  the  state  prison  for  not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than 
ten  years. 

The  acts  prohibited,  whether  the  offender  be  man  or  woman,  are 
as  follows : 

1.  Ordinary  procurement  of  any  female  inmate  for  a house  of 
prostitution. 

2.  To  cause,  induce,  persuade  or  encourage  by  promise,  threat, 
violence,  device  or  scheme,  a female  to  become  such  inmate. 

3.  Employment  of  any  such  means  to  have  a female  inmate  remain 
in  such  house. 

4.  Procurement  of  a female  to  become  such  inmate  by  exercise  of 
fraud,  artifice,  duress  of  person  or  goods,  or  abuse  of  any  posi- 
tion of  confidence  or  authority. 

5.  To  cause  by  any  such  means  a female  to  enter  anj-  place  in  this 
state  in  which  prostitution  is  encouraged  or  allowed. 

6.  So  to  cause  a female  to  come  into  this  state  for  the  purpose  of 
prostitution. 

7.  So  to  cause  a female  to  leave  this  state  for  that  purpose. 

8.  Procurement  of  a female  who  has  never  practiced  prostitution 
to  become  an  inmate  of  such  house  in  this  state. 

9.  Procurement  of  such  person  to  come  into  this  state  for  such 
purpose. 

10.  Procurement  of  such  person  to  leave  this  state  for  that  purpose. 

11.  To  receive  or  give,  or  agree  to  receive  or  give  any  money  or 
other  thing  of  value  for  procuring  or  attempting  to  procure  any 
female  to  become  an  inmate  of  a house  of  ill  fame  in  this  state. 

12.  So  to  act  with  respect  to  the  bringing  into  this  state  of  a female 
for  the  purpose  of  prostitution. 

13.  Like  act  with  relation  to  the  leaving  of  this  state  by  a female 
for  such  purpose. 

It  is  expressly  provided  that  even  though  it  shall  appear  that 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


65 


part  of  any  such  prohibited  act  shall  have  been  committed  beyond 
this  state,  such  fact  shall  not  constitute  a valid  defense.  In  such 
case  the  offense  shall  be  deemed  to  have  been  committed  in  the 
county  in  this  state  “in  which  the  prostitution  was  intended  to  be 
practiced,  or  in  which  the  offense  was  consummated,  or  in  which 
were  committed  any  overt  acts  in  furtherance  of  the  offense.” 
Section  57  h. 

Any  such  female  shall  be  a competent  witness  in  any  prosecu- 
tion to  testify  for  or  against  the  accused  as  to  any  transaction  or 
as  to  any  conversation  with  the  accused  or  by  him  with  another 
person  or  persons  in  her  presence,  even  though  of  her  marriage 
with  the  respondent  either  before  or  after  the  violation,  and  ^ be 
competent  either  during  the  period  of  such  marriage  or  after  its 
dissolution.  Section  57  i. 

Adultery  and  Fornication. 

If  any  man  and  woman  shall  live  together  in  an  open  state  of 
either  adultery  or  fornication,  or  shall  so  live  in  an  open  state  of 
adultery  and  fornication  (in  the  latter  case  one  being  a married 
and  the  other  an  unmarried  person),  he  and  she  shall  each  be  sub- 
ject to  a fine  not  exceeding  five  hundred  dollars,  or  confinement  in 
the  county  jail  for  not  more  than  one  year.  A second  offense  calls 
for  punishment  double  that  for  the  first,  a third  offense  treble,  and  each 
succeeding  offense  for  increase  accordingly.  Prosecution  may  be 
prevented  by  legal  intermarriage  of  the  offenders  and  the  payment 
of  costs  of  prosecution.  Section  ii. 

Lewdness  and  Disorderly  Conduct. 

Whoever  shall  be  guilty  of  open  lewdness,  disorderly  conduct, 
or  other  notorious  act  of  public  indecency,  tending  to  debauch  the 
public  morals,  shall  be  fined  not  exceeding  $200.  Section  55. 

Whoever  keeps  or  maintains  a house  of  ill  fame  or  place  for  the 
practice  of  prostitution  or  lewdness,  or  whoever  patronizes  the 
same,  or  lets  any  house,  room  or  other  premises  for  any  such  pur- 
pose, or  shall  keep  a common,  ill  governed  and  disorderly  house, 
•to  the  encouragement  of  idleness,  gaming,  drinking,  fornication  or 
other  misbehavior,  shall  be  fined  not  exceeding  $200. 

And  whoever  shall  lease  to  another  any  such  premises  for  such 
use  or  purpose,  or  shall  knowingly  permit  the  same  so  to  be  used 
or  occupied  shall  be  fined  not  exceeding  $200,  and  the  premises  in 
question  be  held  liable  for  and  sold  to  satisfy  the  same.  If,  how- 
ever, such  premises  belong  to  a minor  or  to  any  other  person  under 
guardianship,  the  liability  so  fixed  shall  fall  upon  the  guardian  or 
conservator,  and  his  or  her  own  property  be  subject  to  lien  and  sale 
as  aforesaid.  Section  57- 

The  maintenance  of  any  such  house  is  declared  to  be  a nuisance, 
and  the  same  may  be  abated  and  its  restoration  be  enjoined  in  like 
manner  as  in  the  case  of  other  prohibited  nuisances ; and  any  per- 
son or  persons  may  be  enjoined  from  using  or  suffering  any  prem- 
ises to  be  used  for  immoral  purposes.  Laws  of  1915,  page  371. 


66  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Keeping  Boats  for  Purposes  of  Prostitution. 

Any  person  who  shall  keep  a boat  or  other  water  craft  for  the 
purposes  of  prostitution  on  any  of  the  navigable  waters  of  this 
state,  breakwater  or  other  stream,  over  or  upon  which  this  state 
has  jurisdiction,  shall  be  guilty  of  a felony  punishable  by  confine- 
ment in  the  penitentiary  for  not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than 
three  years,  and  a fine  not  exceeding  $1,000.  Section  57  a. 

Seduction. 

Any  person  who  shall  seduce  and  obtain  carnal  knowledge  of 
any  unmarried  female  under  the  age  of  eighteen  years  of  previous 
chaste  character,  shall,  on  conviction,  be  punished  by  a fine  of  not 
less  than  $1,000  nor  more  than  $5,000,  or  by  imprisonment  in  the 
county  jail  not  exceeding  one  year,  or  both,  the  respondent  to  stand 
committed  until  the  payment  of  fine  and  costs;  but  no  conviction 
shall  be  had  upon  the  testimony  of  the  female  unsupported  by  other 
evidence.  Section  525. 

Obscene  Prints  and  Other  Articles. 

Sections  22^  and  22i^  are  aimed  to  suppress  obscene  prints  and 
all  other  articles  similarly  tainted,  also  instruments  or  articles  for 
indecent  or  immoral  use.  No  such  contraband  shall  be  brought 
into  the  state  for  sale  or  exhibition,  none  printed  in  the  state,  none 
sold  or  given  away,  none  offered  to  be  sold  or  given  away,  nor  shall 
any  person  have  possession  of  any  such  with  or  without  intent  to 
sell  or  give  away.  No  such  article  shall  be  manufactured  in  the 
state,  not  any  be  drawn  and  exposed,  not  any  drawn  with  intent  to 
sell  or  to  have  sold,  not  any  advertised  for  sale.  No  person  shall 
write  or  print,  or  cause  to  be  written  or  printed  any  circulars,  hand- 
bills, card,  book,  pamphlet,  advertisement  or  notice  of  any  kind,  or 
give  information  orally  as  to  how  or  of  whom  or  by  what  means  any 
such  contraband  may  be  purchased  or  otherwise  obtained. 

No  person  shall  deposit  or  cause  to  be  deposited  any  such  con- 
traband or  any  such  printed  notice  in  any  postoffice  in  the  state,  or 
place  the  same  in  charge  of  any  express  company  or  any  person 
connected  therewith,  or  of  any  common  carrier  or  other  person, 
nor  shall  he  give  to  any  person  oral  information  as  aforesaid  with 
the  intent  of  having  such  contraband  conve5'ed  by  mail  or  express 
or  in  any  other  manner.  Every  person  shall  also  be  guilty  of  a vio- 
lation of  the  act  who  shall  knowingly  receive  the  same  with  intent 
to  carry  or  convey,  or  who  shall  carry  or  convey  the  same  by  ex- 
press or  in  any  other  manner,  unwitting  carriage  in  the  United 
States  mail  being  excepted. 

For  any  violation  of  the  act  the  offender  shall  be  subject  to 
confinement  in  the  county  jail  for  not  more  than  six  months,  or  a 
fine  not  less  than  $100  nor  more  than  $1,000.  In  every  instance 
one-half  of  the  fine  money  shall  be  paid  to  the  person  upon  whose 
evidence  the  offender  shall  be  convicted,  and  the  other  half  be 
turned  over  to  the  school  fund  of  the  county  in  which  conviction 
is  had. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


67 


General  Provisions. 

Sections  315,  316  and  31^  of  the  criminal  code  provide  that  all 
indictments  for  felonies  other  than  murder,  manslaughter,  arson 
and  forgery  must  be  found  within  three  years  next  after  the  com- 
mission of  the  crime ; that  all  prosecutions  for  manslaughter,  ex- 
cept in  the  cases  where  the  statute  defining  the  offense  otherwise 
expressly  provides  shall  be  commenced  within  one  year  and  six 
months  from  the  time  of  committing  the  offense ; and  that  no  period 
during  which  the  person  charged  was  not  usually  and  publicly  resi- 
dent within  this  state  shall  be  included  in  the  time  of  limitation. 

The  following  provisions,  some  of  them  given  here  in  abbre- 
\ iated  form,  also  appear  in  the  criminal  code. 

Accessories  Before  the  Fact. 

An  accessory  before  the  fact  shall  be  considered  as  a principal 
and  be  punished  accordingly.  Section  2^4. 

Accessories  After  the  Fact. 

Every  person  not  standing  in  the  relation  of  husband  or  wife, 
parent  or  child,  brother  or  sister  to  the  offender,  who  knows  the 
fact  that  a crime  has  been  committed,  and  conceals  it  from  the 
magistrate,  or  who  harbors,  conceals,  maintains  or  assists  any  prin- 
cipal felon,  or  any  accessory  before  the  fact,  knowing  him  to  be 
such,  shall  be  deemed  an  accessory  after  the  fact,  and  shall  be  pun- 
jshed  by  imprisonment  not  exceeding  two  years,  and  fine  not  ex- 
ceeding $500.  Section  2^6. 

Accessory  May  be  Punished  Independently  of  Principal. 

Every  accessory  before  the  fact,  when  a crime  is  committed 
within  or  without  this  state  by  his  aid  or  procurement  in  this  state, 
may  be  indicted  and  convicted  at  the  same  time  as  the  principal, 
or  before,  or  after  his  conviction,  and  whether  the  principal  is  con- 
victed or  amenable  to  justice  or  not,  and  punished  as  principal. 
Section  273. 

Arrests  Without  Warrant. 

An  arrest  may  be  made  by  an  officer  or  by  a private  person  with- 
out warrant,  for  a criminal  offense  committed  or  attempted  in  his 
presence,  and  by  an  officer,  when  a criminal  offense  has  in  fact  been 
committed,  and  he  has  reasonable  ground  for  believing  that  the 
person  to  be  arrested  has  committed  it.  Section  342. 

Attempt  to  Commit  Offense. 

Whoever  attempts  to  commit  any  offense  prohibited  by  law,  and 
does  any  act  towards  it  but  fails,  or  is  intercepted  or  prevented  in 
its  execution,  where  no  express  provision  is  made  by  law  for  the 
punishment  of  such  attempt,  shall  be  punished,  when  the  offense 
thus  attempted  is  a felony,  by  imprisonment  in  the  penitentiary 
not  less  than  one  year  nor  more  than  five  years ; in  all  other  cases, 
by  fine  not  exceeding  $300,  or  by  confinement  in  the  county  jail  not 
exceeding  six  months.  Section  273. 


68  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Compounding  a Felony. 

Whoever  takes  money,  goods,  chattels,  lands  or  other  reward, 
or  promise  thereof,  to  compound  any  criminal  offense,  shall  be 
fined  in  double  the  sum  or  value  of  the  thing  agreed  for  or  taken. 
Section  4^. 

Conspiracy. 

Criminal  conspiracy  is  punishable  by  imprisonment  in  the  peni- 
tentiary not  exceeding  five  years,  or  fine  not  exceeding  $2,000,  or 
both.  Section  46. 

Perjury. 

Every  person  convicted  either  of  perjury  or  subornation  of  per- 
jury shall  be  imprisoned  in  the  penitentiary  not  less  than  one  nor 
more  than  fourteen  years.  Section  22^. 

Every  person  who  by  willful  and  corrupt  perjury,  or  suborna- 
tion of  perjury,  shall  procure  the  conviction  and  execution  of  any 
innocent  person,  shall  be  deemed  and  adjudged  guilty  of  murder, 
and  punished  accordingly.  Section  226. 

Search  Warrant. 

A warrant  may  issue  to  search  for  and  seize  books,  pamphlets, 
ballads,  printed  papers  or  other  things  containing  obscene  lan- 
guage, or  obscene  prints,  pictures,  figures  or  descriptions,  mani- 
festly tending  to  corrupt  the  morals  of  youth,  and  intended  to  be 
sold,  loaned,  circulated  or  distributed,  or  to  be  introduced  into  any 
family,  school,  or  place  of  education.  Section  273- 

Witness — Causing  One  to  Abscond. 

Whoever,  by  hiring,  persuasion,  or  otherwise,  induces  any  wit- 
ness in  any  criminal  cause,  or  any  person  having  knowledge  of  any 
fact  tending  to  show  the  guilt  or  innocence  of  any  person  suspected 
or  charged  with  having  committed  a crime,  to  leave  the  state  or 
secrete  himself  so  that  he  cannot  be  produced  as  a witness  at  any 
examination  on  trial  of  the  person  so  suspected  or  charged,  or  who- 
ever having  knowledge  of  any  fact  tending  to  show  the  guilt  or 
innocence  of  any  person  suspected  or  charged  with  having  com- 
mitted a crime,  takes  any  money  or  valuable  consideration  or 
gratuity,  or  promise  thereof,  upon  an  agreement  or  understanding, 
expressed  or  implied,  not  to  testify  or  give  evidence  of  such  fact, 
or  to  leave  the  state,  or  to  secrete  himself  so  that  he  cannot  be  pro- 
duced as  a witness  at  any  examination  or  trial  of  the  person  so  sus- 
pected or  charged,  shall  be  fined  not  exceeding  $1,000,  or  confined 
in  the  county  jail  not  exceeding  one  year,  or  both.  Section  2J2. 

Children. 

Males  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  and  females  of  the  age  of  eight- 
een years  shall,  according  to  statute,  be  considered  of  age  for  all 
purposes.  Girls,  however,  may  under  certain  circumstances  be 
committed  to  the  State  House  for  Juvenile  Female  Offenders  “for 
a time  not  less  than  one  year,  nor  beyond  the  age  of  twenty-one 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


69 


years.’’  A summary  of  the  statutes  relating  to  the  welfare  of  chil- 
dren follows : 

Abandonment. 

Every  person  who  shall  abandon  his  or  her  minor  child  or  chil- 
dren, under  the  age  of  twelve  years,  in  destitute  or  necessitous  cir- 
cumstances, and  wilfully  neglect  or  refuse  to  maintain  or  provide 
for  such  child  or  children  shall  be  subject  to  a fine  of  not  less  than 
$100  nor  more  than  $500,  or  imprisonment  in  the  county  jail,  house 
of  correction  or  workhouse  not  less  than  one  month  nor  more  than 
twelve  months,  or  to  both  such  fine  and  imprisonment.  The  court 
may  direct  the  fine  money  to  be  paid,  in  whole  or  in  part,  to  the 
guardian  or  custodian  of  such  minor  child  or  children.  The  act 
provides  that  in  such  cases  wives  shall  be  competent  witnesses 
against  their  husbands.  Sections  24  and  25,  Chapter  68. 

When  any  child  under  the  age  of  one  year  shall  be  abandoned 
by  its  parents,  guardian  or  any  other  person  having  legal  control 
or  custody  thereof,  such  person  or  persons  shall  be  punished  by  a 
fine  of  not  less  than  $300  nor  more  than  $1,000,  or  by  imprisonment 
in  the  penitentiary  not  exceeding  three  years,  or  by  both.  Section 
42,  Criminal  Code. 

Cruelty. 

Any  person  who  shall  wilfully  and  unnecessarily  expose  to  any 
inclemency  of  the  weather,  or  shall  in  any  other  manner  injure  in 
health  or  limb,  any  child,  apprentice,  or  other  person  under  his  legal 
control,  shall  be  fined  not  exceeding  $500,  or  imprisoned  in  the  peni- 
tentiary not  exceeding  five  years.  Section  5J,  Criminal  Code. 

Banned  Publications  and  Employments. 

It  shall  be  unlawful  for  any  person  to  sell,  lend,  give  away  or 
show,  or  have  in  his  possession  with  intent  to  sell  or  give  away,  or 
to  show  or  advertise,  or  otherwise  offer  for  loan,  gift  or  distribu- 
tion to  any  minor  child  any  book,  pamphlet,  magazine,  newspaper, 
story  paper  or  other  printed  paper  devoted  to  the  publication,  or 
principally  made  up  of  criminal  news,  police  reports,  or  accounts 
of  criminal  deeds,  or  pictures  and  stories  of  deeds  of  bloodshed, 
lust  or  crime.  Section  42  he,  Criminal  Code. 

It  shall  be  unlawful  to  exhibit  upon  any  street  or  highway,  or 
in  any  place  within  the  view,  or  which  may  be  within  the  view  of 
any  minor  child,  any  book  or  other  print  coming  within  the  descrip- 
tion mentioned  in  the  preceding  section.  Section  42  hf,  Criminal 
Code. 

It  shall  be  unlawful  to  hire,  use  or  employ  any  minor  child  to 
sell  or  give  away,  or  in  any  manner  to  distribute,  or  who,  having 
the  care,  custody  or  control  of  any  minor  child,  to  permit  such 
child  to  sell,  give  away,  or  in  any  manner  to  distribute  any  book 
or  other  print  coming  within  the  description  mentioned  in  said 
section  42  he,  and  any  person  violating  any  provisions  of  either  of 
the  two  preceding  sections  or  of  this  section  shall  be  fined  not  ex- 
ceeding $500,  or  imprisoned  in  the  county  jail  not  to  exceed  six 


70  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

months,  or  both  in  the  discretion  of  the  court.  Section  42  hg,  Crim- 
inal Code. 

It  shall  be  unlawful  for  any  person  having  the  care,  custody 
and  control  of  any  child  under  fourteen  to  exhibit,  use  or  employ, 
or  in  any  manner,  or  under  any  pretense,  sell,  apprentice,  give 
away,  let  out,  or  otherwise  dispose  of  such  child  to  any  person  in 
or  for  the  vocation  or  occupation,  service,  or  purpose  of  singing, 
playing  on  musical  instruments,  rope  or  wire  walking,  dancing, 
begging  or  peddling,  or  as  a gymnast,  contortionist,  rider  or  acro- 
bat in  any  place  whatsoever,  or  for  any  obscene,  indecent  or  im- 
moral purpose,  exhibition  or  practice  whatsoever,  * ^ * or 

cause,  procure  or  encourage  any  such  child  therein.  Nothing  in 
this  section  contained  shall  apply  to,  or  affect  the  employment  or 
use  of  any  such  child  as  a singer  or  musician  in  any  church,  school 
or  academy,  or  at  any  respectable  entertainment,  or  the  teaching  or 
learning  the  science  or  practice  of  music.  Section  42  a,  Criminal 
Code. 

Dance  Halls. 

It  shall  be  unlawful  for  any  person,  firm  or  corporation,  as 
owner,  agent,  lessee  or  otherwise,  that  maintains  or  conducts  any 
public  dance  hall  where  intoxicating  beverages  or  liquors  are  sold 
or  given  away,  or  any  such  dance  hall  that  is  adjacent  or  connected 
with  any  room,  building,  park  or  enclosure  of  any  kind-  where  such 
intoxicating  beverages  or  liquors  are  sold  or  given  away,  to  permit 
any  minor  to  enter  and  be  and  remain  within  such  public  dance 
hall  or  be  and  remain  upon  the  premises  where  such  public  dance 
hall  is  located,  unless  such  minor  is  accompanied  by  his  or  her 
parent  or  parents.  Section  48,  Chapter  4^,  Criminal  Code. 

For  every  violation  of  the  preceding  section  the  penalty  shall 
be  a fine  of  not  less  than  $25  nor  more  than  $200.  Any  person 
falsely  representing  himself  or  herself  as  parent  of  any  such  minor 
shall  be  punished  likewise.  Section  4p,  Chapter  4s,  Criminal  Code. 

III.  STATUTES  RELATING  TO  DEPENDENT,  NEG- 
LECTED AND  DELINQUENT  CHILDREN. 

For  the  purposes  of  acts  relating  to  children  who  are  now  or  may 
hereafter  become  dependent,  neglected  or  delinquent  these  defini- 
tions shall  obtain : 

A “dependent”  or  “neglected”  child  is  any  boy  who  while  under 
seventeen  or  any  girl  who  while  under  eighteen,  for  any  reason,  is 
destitute,  homeless  or  abandoned;  or  dependent  upon  the  public 
for  support ; or  has  not  proper  parental  care  or  guardianship ; or 
habitually  begs  or  receives  alms ; or  is  found  living  in  any  house 
of  ill  fame,  or  with  any  vicious  or  disreputable  person;  or  has  a 
home  which  by  reason  of  neglect,  cruelty  or  depravity  on  the  part 
of  its  parents,  guardian  or  any  other  person  in  whose  care  it  may 
be,  is  an  unfit  place  for  such  a child;  and  any  child  who  while 
under  the  age  of  ten  is  found  begging,  peddling  or  selling  any 
articles,  or  singing,  or  playing  any  musical  instrument  for  gain 
upon  the  street,  or  giving  any  public  entertainment,  or  who  accom- 
panies or  is  used  in  aid  of  any  person  so  doing. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


71 


A “delinquent”  child  is  any  boy  who  while  under  seventeen,  or 
any  girl  who  while  under  eighteen,  violates  any  law  of  this  state; 
or  is  incorrigible,  or  knowingly  associates  with  thieves,  vicious  or 
immoral  persons;  or  without  just  cause  and  without  the  consent 
of  its  parents,  guardian  or  custodian  absents  itself  from  its  home 
or  place  of  abode,  or  is  growing  up  in  idleness  and  crime ; or  know- 
ingly frequents  a house  of  ill  repute ; * * * or  wanders  about 

the  streets  in  the  night  time  without  being  in  any  lawful  business 
or  occupation;  * * * or  uses  vile,  obscene,  vulgar,  profane  or 

indecent  language  in  any  public  place  or  about  any  schoolhouse; 
or  is  guilty  of  indecent  or  lascivious  conduct.  Section  i6g,  Criminal 
Code. 

Any  parent  or  parents,  or  legal  guardian,  or  person  having  the 
custody  of  any  such  dependent,  neglected  or  delinquent  child,  or 
any  other  person  who  shall  knowingly  or  wilfully  encourage,  aid, 
cause,  abet  or  connive  at  such  state  of  dependency,  neglect  or  de- 
linquency, or  shall  knowingly  or  wilfully  do  any  act  or  acts  that 
directly  produce,  promote,  or  contribute  to  the  conditions  which 
render  such  child  a dependent,  neglected  or  delinquent  child  as  so 
defined,  or  who,  having  the  custody  of  such  child,  shall,  when  able 
to  do  so,  wilfully  neglect  to  do  that  which  will  directly  tend  to 
prevent  such  state  of  dependency,  neglect  or  delinquency,  or  to  re- 
move the  conditions  which  render  such  child  either  a neglected, 
dependent  or  delinquent  child,  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  a misde- 
meanor, and  be  subject  to  a fine  of  not  more  than  $200,  or  by  im- 
prisonment in  the  county  jail,  house  of  correction  or  workhouse  for 
not  more  than  twelve  months,  or  both  such  fine  and  imprisonment. 
Section  42  hb,  Criminal  Code. 

IV.  STATUTES  CONCERNING  DETENTION  OF  DELIN- 
QUENT BOYS  AND  JUVENILE  FEMALE  OFFENDERS. 

Delinquent  Boys. 

The  board  of  trustees  of  the  St.  Charles  School  for  Boys  (name 
of  the  state  school  for  delinquent  boys)  shall  make  regulations  for 
the  placing  in  a home  and  placing  in  employment,  or  returning  to 
his  own  home,  if  suitable,  any  inmate  of  such  home  who  may  safely 
and  consistently  with  the  public  good  and  the  good  of  the  boy  be 
so  placed  out,  or  returned  to  his  own  home ; it  being  the  intention 
of  this  act  that  no  boy  should  be  kept  in  such  home  who  can  prop- 
erly be  placed  out,  or  returned  home,  longer  than  may  be  reason- 
ably necessary  to  prepare  him  for  such  placing  out.  Any  boy 
placed  out  may,  for  good  reasons,  be  returned  to  said  home.  Sec- 
tion 207,  Chapter  2^. 

Juvenile  Female  Offenders. 

The  State  Home  for  Juvenile  Female  Offenders  shall  be  under 
the  control  of  five  trustees,  to  be  appointed  by  the  governor,  two 
of  whom  may  be  women.  * * * Section  216,  Chapter  2^. 

Whenever  any  girl  between  the  ages  of  ten  and  eighteen  years 
is  convicted  before  any  court  of  record  of  any  offense  which,  if  com- 


72  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

mitted  by  an  adult,  is  punishable  by  confinement  in  any  house  of 
correction,  county  jail  or  penitentiary,  such  juvenile  offender  may 
be  committed  by  the  order  of  such  court  to  the  State  Home  for 
Juvenile  Offenders  for  a time  not  less  than  one  year  nor  beyond 
the  age  of  twenty-one  years.  * * * Section  2^1,  Chapter  2^. 

Whenever  any  girl  between  the  ages  of  ten  and  eighteen  years 
is  charged  with  or  found  guilty  of  the  violation  of  any  statute,  law 
or  city  ordinance  before  any  justice  of  the  peace,  police  magistrate, 
examining  magistrate  or  court,  if  any  credible  person,  a resident  of 
the  county,  shall  file  a petition  in  any  court  of  record  in  such 
county,  setting  forth  the  offense  charged  and  that  such  girl  is  a 
vagrant  or  without  a proper  home  or  means  of  subsistence,  or  lives 
with  or  frequents  the  company  of  reputed  thieves  or  other  vicious 
persons,  or  is  or  has  been  in  a house  of  ill  fame,  prison,  or  poor- 
house,  or  setting  forth  and  showing  any  other  facts  of  a similar 
nature,  showing  that  it  will  be  for  the  interest  of  such  girl  and  the 
public  that  she  should  be  sent  to  said  State  Home  for  Juvenile 
Female  Offenders,  the  court  may,  if  in  the  opinion  of  the  judge, 
said  State  Home  for  Juvenile  Female  Offenders  is  a proper  place 
for  such  girl,  cause  such  girl  to  be  brought  before  it  and  cause  a 
jury  of  six  competent  persons  to  be  impaneled  for  the  trial  of  the 
case,  and  if  the  jury  shall  return  its  verdict  that  the  facts  set  forth 
in  the  petition  are  proved,  the  court  may  commit  such  girl  to  said 
State  Home  for  Juvenile  Female  Offenders  for  a term  not  less 
than  one  year  nor  beyond  the  age  of  twenty-one  years.  Section 
2J2,  Chapter  2^. 

No  imbecile,  or  idiotic  girl,  shall  be  committed  or  received  into 
said  home.  Section  2^5,  Chapter  2^. 

MAY  BE  PLACED  IN  GOOD  PRIVATE  HOMES. 

Any  girl  committed  under  the  provisions  of  this  act  may  be  dis- 
charged from  custody  at  any  time  by  the  governor,  or  by  the  trus- 
tees, when  in  their  judgment  the  good  of  the  girl,  or  the  good  of 
the  home  will  be  promoted  by  such  discharge.  Section  2^6,  Chap- 
ter 2^. 

Any  girl  committed  under  the  provisions  of  this  act  may,  by 
the  trustees  of  said  home,  be  placed  in  the  home  of  any  good  citizen 
upon  such  terms  and  for  such  purpose  as  may  be  agreed  upon  or 
she  may  be  given  to  any  suitable  person  of  good  character  who  will 
adopt  her,  or  she  may  be  bound  to  any  reputable  citizen  as  an  ap- 
prentice to  learn  any  trade,  or  as  a servant  to  follow  any  employ- 
ment which,  in  the  judgment  of  the  trustees,  M'ill  be  for  her  ad- 
vantage. * * * Any  disposition  made  of  any  girl  under  this 
section  shall  not  bind  her  beyond  her  minority.  * * * q^^e 
trustees  shall  have  a supervising  care  of  such  girl,  to  see  that  she 
is  properly  treated  and  cared  for ; and,  in  case  such  girl  is  cruell}^ 
treated,  or  is  neglected,  or  the  terms  upon  which  she  was  com- 
mitted to  the  care  and  protection  of  any  person  are  not  observed, 
or  in  case  such  care  and  protection  shall  for  any  reason  cease,  then 
it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  trustees  to  take  and  receive  such  girl 


Working  of  Present  Laws  73 

again  into  the  custody,  care  and  protection  o£  said  home.  Section 
242,  Chapter 

Any  girl  committed  to  said  home  shall,  by  good  behavior,  earn 
to  herself  and  be  credited  with  time  as  follows:  each  month  in  the 
first  year,  five  days ; each  month  in  the  second  year,  six  days ; each 
month  in  the  third  year,  seven  days ; each  month  in  the  fourth  year, 
eight  days ; each  month  thereafter,  nine  days.  Any  such  girl,  for 
any  misconduct  or  violation  of  the  rules  of  the  home,  shall  be  liable 
to  forfeit  five  days  of  the  good  time  placed  to  her  credit.  The  su- 
perintendent shall  release  every  such  girl  from  the  home  as  many 
days  before  the  expiration  of  time  of  her  sentence  as  she  shall  have 
balance  of  good  days  to  her  credit.  Section  Chapter  2^. 

Upon  the  discharge  of  any  girl  from  the  said  home  the  super- 
intendent shall  provide  her  with  suitable  clothing  and  five  dollars 
in  money,  and  procure  transportation  for  her  to  her  home,  if  she 
has  one  in  this  state,  or  to  the  county  from  which  she  was  sent,  at 
her  option.  Section  24^,  Chapter  2^. 

V.  INJUSTICES  OF  THE  FEMALE  OFFENDERS’  ACT. 

A young  man  or  woman  of  exemplary  character  and  of  excellent 
family,  and  who  is  supplied  with  written  testimonials  of  the  very 
first  order,  may  well  have  anxieties  if  upon  leaving  home  in  search 
of  employment  in  a strange  place  his  or  her  sole  possessions  shall 
consist  of  “suitable  clothing,”  five  dollars  in  money,  and  a railway 
ticket  to  the  point  of  destination.  So,  too,  must  be  disturbed  the 
mind  of  man  or  youth  freshly  discharged  from  an  Illinois  peniten- 
tiary or  reformatory,  and  whose  aim  is  to  avoid  crime  in  the  future. 

Every  convict  discharged  from  the  penitentiary,  by  pardon  or 
otherwise,  shall  be  furnished  by  the  warden  with  a suitable  suit  of 
citizen’s  clothing,  with  transportation  to  the  place  of  his  conviction, 
or  the  equivalent  thereof  in  money,  and  in  addition  thereto  the  sum 
of  ten  dollars  for  other  necessary  expenses  (Section  21,  Chapter 
108);  and  every  prisoner  discharged  from  the  reformatory  shall  be 
provided  with  suitable  clothing,  with  transportation  to  his  home  if 
in  Illinois,  or  to  the  place  of  his  conviction  if  such  home  be  else- 
where, and  with  ten  dollars  in  money  to  be  paid  at  such  times  and 
in  such  installments  as  the  general  superintendent  of  the  institu- 
tion may  determine.  Section  ip.  Chapter  118. 

Whatever  may  be  the  state  of  mind  in  either  of  these  two 
cases,  that  of  the  unfortunate  girl  or  young  woman  just  emerging 
from  the  Home  of  Juvenile  Female  Offenders  may  fairly  be  imag- 
ined to  be  more  uneasy.  There  is  an  abyss,  whether  right  or 
wrong,  between  a good  name  and  five  dollars  and  a bad  record  and 
many  dollars;  and  ten  dollars  whether  in  hand  or  in  print  must 
always  be  the  double  in  value  of  five  dollars  in  like  coinage  or  issue. 
Why  the  state  should  give  ten  dollars  to  man  or  boy  and  but  five 
dollars  to  girl  or  woman  so  discharged  is  beyond  ordinary  compre- 
hension. 

PRESENT  ALLOWANCE  INSUFFICIENT. 

The  larger  allowance  is  none  too  much  to  any  such  discharged 


74  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

prisoner  or  inmate  and  in  many  instances  it  might  fairly  be  in- 
creased, but  if  ten  dollars  is  to  be  the  maximum  and  a greater  al- 
lowance be  continued  to  be  made  in  the  case  of  one  sex  than  the 
other,  can  there  be  any  doubt  as  to  which  sex  should  be  favored?  i 
It  is  not  a question  of  sentiment  but  one  of  justice.  j 

Whether  an  inmate  for  short  or  long  period,  the  girl  may  have  ; 
gained  all  good  time  possible,  may  never  have  had  a mark  against 
her.  She  may  have  been  in  the  institution  eleven  full  years,  may  , 
never  have  won  a day’s  good  time.  Many  of  the  latter,  however,  ' 
may  have  abundant  good  traits.  A girl  or  boy  may  get  many 
black  marks  in  an  ordinary  school  and  yet  be  incomparably  better 
in  heart  than  many  without  a single  unfavorable  marking. 

Whatever  her  term  or  her  conduct  in  the  public  home  no  girl 
inmate  should  be  set  adrift  with  but  five  dollars — the  price  of  a 
single  week’s  board.  The  girl  of  pride  and  spirit  will  not  care  to 
live  in  the  community  in  which  is  known  her  degradation.  Nor 
will  she  avail  herself  of  the  services  of  any  public  agent  charged 
with  the  duty  of  assisting  discharged  inmates  to  find  employment. 
Aid  in  that  direction  would  lead  to  disclosure  of  her  history.  It 
is  cruel  to  send  out  these  girls  to  battle  among  strangers  for  a de- 
cent living  and  a good  name,  and  to  supply  them  with  so  miserable 
a pittance  to  make  the  start.  The  discharged  murderer,  rapist, 
robber  or  firebug  is  furnished  not  only  with  ten  dollars  cash,  but 
with  the  equivalent  in  money  of  the  cost  of  his  transportation  to  the 
place  of  conviction,  if  he  elects  to  take  such  instead  of  ticket,  thus 
enabling  him  to  go  to  a strange  field  without  breaking  in  upon  his 
ten  dollars. 

The  discharged  girl  whose  principal  offense  may  have  been 
birth  in  a drunken  or  otherwise  unhappy  home  is  given  but  five 
dollars  and  has  no  such  election  in  the  matter  of  transportation. 
She  must  board  a train  destined  either  for  her  home  or  for  the  county 
of  her  conviction,  the  very  last  places  that  many  a good  girl  so  un- 
happily situated  would  willingly  go.  To  go  elsewhere  she  must 
either  break  into  her  five  dollars  or  sell  some  of  her  “suitable  cloth- 
ing,” perhaps  do  both.  And  then  begins  the  struggle. 


VI.  MISCELLANEOUS  PROVISIONS  REGARDING 

MINORS. 


Not  to  Be  Imprisoned. 

An  infant  under  the  age  of  ten  years  shall  not  be  found  guilty  ' 
of  any  crime  or  misdemeanor.  Section  28^,  Criminal  Code. 

No  child  under  twelve  years  of  age  shall  be  committed  to  jail 
or  police  station.  If  unable  to  give  bail  the  offending  child  shall 
be  given  in  charge  of  certain  officers  whose  duty  it  shall  be  pend- 
ing the  hearing  to  keep  the  child  in  some  suitable  place  outside  the 
enclosure  of  either  jail  or  police  station.  In  case  of  the  child’s  sen- 
tence to  confinement  in  any  institution  to  which  adult  convicts  are 
sentenced,  it  shall  be  unlawful  to  confine  such  child  in  the  same 
building  with  such  adults,  or  to  confine  the  child  in  the  same  yard  ' 
or  enclosure  with  them,  or  to  bring  the  child  into  any  yard  or  • 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


75 


building  in  which  such  convicts  may  be  present.  Section  J/p,  Chap- 
ter 2^. 

Detention  Homes. 

Every  county  may  maintain  a detention  home  for  the  temporary 
care  and  custody  of  dependent,  delinquent  or  truant  children.  Such 
home  shall  be  so  arranged,  furnished  and  conducted  that,  as  near 
as  practicable  for  their  safe  custody,  the  inmates  thereof  shall  be 
cared  for  as  in  a family  home  and  public  school. 

It  shall  be  managed  by  a discreet  woman  of  good  moral  char- 
j acter,  or  by  a man  and  woman  of  like  character,  and  the  first  and 
! at  least  one  of  the  second  shall  be  competent  to  teach  and  instruct 
j children  in  branches  similar  to  those  taught  in  the  public  schools 
up  to  and  including  the  eighth  grade.  Sections  2^1  and  2^2,  Chapter 
' ^3- 

Pawnbrokers. 

No  pawnbroker  shall  take  or  receive  any  pawn  or  pledge  for 
any  advancement  or  loan,  any  property  of  any  kind  from  any 
minor,  or  the  ownership  of  which  is  in,  or  which  is  claimed  by, 
any  minor,  or  which  may  be  in  the  possession  or  under  the  control 
of  any  minor.  Any  pawnbroker  violating  the  same  is  subject  to  a 
fine  of  not  less  than  $20  nor  more  than  $100  for  the  first  offense, 
and  for  each  subsequent  violation  not  less  than  $50  nor  more  than 
$200,  or  imprisonment  in  the  county  jail  not  exceeding  thirty  days, 
or  both.  Section  8,  Chapter  loy  a. 

Unlawful  Leases. 

No  owner  or  agent  of  a dwelling  house,  flat  or  apartment  shall 
i require  as  a condition  precedent  to  the  leasing  of  the  same  that  the 
person  or  persons  desiring  to  rent  such  premises  shall  be  without 
, children  under  fourteen  residing  in  their  family  or  families ; and  it 
j shall  be  deemed  unlawful  to  insert  in  any  lease  or  agreement  for 
such  premises  a condition  terminating  such  lease  if  there  are  or 
j shall  be  any  such  children  in  the  family  of  any  person  holding  such 
!'  lease  and  occupying  such  premises ; and  any  such  lease  shall  be 
I void  as  to  such  condition.  Any  person  violating  this  act  shall  be 
I subject  to  a fine  of  not  less  than  $50  nor  more  than  $100  for  each 
li  offense.  Section  38,  Chapter  80. 


VII.  BASTARDY. 

Arrest  of  Reputed  Father. 

When  an  unmarried  woman  who  shall  be  pregnant,  or  delivered 
of  a child  which  by  law  would  be  deemed  a bastard,  shall  make 
complaint  to  a justice  of  the  peace  or  judge  of  a municipal  court 
in  the  county  where  she  may  be  so  pregnant  or  delivered,  or  the 
person  accused  may  be  found,  and  shall  accuse,  under  oath  or 
affirmation,  a person  with  being  the  father  of  such  child,  it  shall 
be  the  duty  of  such  justice  or  judge  to  issue  a warrant  against  the 
person  so  accused  and  cause  himi  to  be  brought  forthwith  before  him, 


76  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

or  in  his  absence,  any  other  justice  of  the  peace  or  judge  in  such 
county.  Section  i,  Chapter  I’J. 

Upon  his  appearance  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  said  justice  or 
judge  to  interrogate  the  woman  under  oath  or  affirmation  with 
respect  to  such  charge,  which  examination  shall  be  had  in  the 
presence  of  the  alleged  father.  The  latter  may  controvert  the 
charge,  and  evidence  may  be  heard. 

If  the  justice  or  judge  shall  be  of  the  opinion  that  reasonable 
cause  appears,  it  shall  be  his  duty  to  require  the  accused  to  give 
bond  with  sufficient  security  to  appear  at  the  next  term  of  the 
county  court  except  that  in  Cook  county  such  appearance  shall  be 
at  the  next  term  of  the  criminal  court  for  that  county.  In  case  of 
neglect  or  refusal  to  give  such  bond  the  accused  shall  be  committed 
to  the  county  jail  until  the  holding  of  such  term.  Section  j.  Chap- 
ter 17. 

If  the  issue  shall  be  found  against  the  accused,  or  if  he  shall  in 
open  court  confess  the  truth  of  the  accusation,  he  shall  be  con- 
demned to  pay  a sum  of  money  not  exceeding  $100  for  the  first 
year  after  the  birth  of  such  child,  and  a sum  not  exceding  $50 
yearly  for  the  next  nine  years,  such  to  be  for  the  support,  main- 
tenance and  education  of  the  child.  He  shall  also  be  adjudged  to 
pay  all  costs  of  prosecution. 

To  secure  the  payment  of  such  sums  so  ordered  to  be  made 
each  year  he  shall  be  required  to  give  bond  with  sufficient  secur- 
ity to  be  approved  by  the  judge  of  said  court,  which  bond  shall 
run  to  the  People  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  conditioned  for  the  pay- 
ment of  such  yearly  sum,  in  equal  quarterly  installments,  to  the 
clerk  of  said  court.  Section  8,  Chapter  17. 

In  case  the  defendant  shall  refuse  or  neglect  to  give  such  secur- 
ity as  may  be  ordered  by  the  court,  he  shall  be  committed  to  the 
jail  of  the  county,  there  to  remain  until  he  shall  comply  with  such 
order,  or  until  otherwise  discharged  by  due  course  of  law.  Any 
person  so  committed  shall  be  discharged  for  insolvency  or  in- 
ability to  give  bond:  Provided,  such  discharge  shall  not  be  made 
within  six  months  after  such  commitment.  Section  p.  Chapter  17. 

If  the  said  child  should  never  be  born  alive,  or,  being  born  alive, 
should  die  at  any  time,  and  the  fact  shall  be  suggested  upon  the 
record  of  the  said  court,  then  the  bond  aforesaid  shall  from  thence- 
forth be  void.  Section  14,  Chapter  i7- 

Marriage  Legitimatizes  Child. 

If  the  mother  of  any  bastard  child,  and  the  reputed  father,  shall, 
at  any  time  after  its  birth,  intermarry,  the  said  child  shall,  in 
all  respects,  be  deemed  and  held  legitimate,  and  the  bond  aforesaid 
be  void.  Section  15,  Chapter  17. 

No  prosecution  under  this  act  shall  be  brought  after  two  years 
from  the  birth  of  the  child : Provided,  the  time  any  person  so 
accused  shall  be  absent  from  the  state  shall  not  be  computed. 
Section  16,  Chapter  17. 

Either  before  or  after  such  birth  the  mother  may  release  its 
alleged  father  from  all  legal  liability  on  occasion  of  such  bastardy, 
upon  such  terms  as  may  be  consented  to  in  writing  by  the  judge  of 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


77 


the  county  court  in  the  county  in  which  she  resides,  but  without 
such  consent  any  release  obtained  for  a consideration  less  than  $400 
shall  not  be  a bar  to  a suit  for  bastardy  against  such  father.  In 
case  of  such  suit  and  a finding  against  the  defendant  he  shall  be 
entitled  to  offset  whatever  he  may  have  paid  under  such  release, 
and  the  same  shall  be  accredited  as  of  the  first  payment  or  pay- 
ments. Any  such  father,  however,  may  at  any  time  and  without 
the  consent  of  the  county  judge,  compromise  all  his  legal  liability 
touching  such  bastardy,  by  paying  to  the  mother  any  sum  not  less 
than  $400.  Section  //,  Chapter  ly. 

Concealing  Death  of  Bastard. 

If  any  woman  shall  endeavor,  privately,  either  by  herself  or  by 
the  procurement  of  others,  to  conceal  the  death  of  any  issue  of  her 
body,  which  if  born  alive  would  be  a bastard,  so  that  it  may  not 
come  to  light,  whether  it  shall  have  been  murdered  or  not,  she 
shall  suffer  confinement  in  the  county  jail  for  a term  not  exceeding 
one  year:  Provided,  however,  that  nothing  herein  contained  shall 
be  so  construed  as  to  prevent  such  mother  from  being  indicted  and 
punished  for  the  murder  of  such  bastard  child.  Section  44,  Crim- 
inal Code. 

VIII.  SCHOOLS  FOR  DELINQUENTS. 

Industrial  School  for  Girls. 

Upon  obtaining  the  written  consent  of  the  governor,  any  seven 
or  more  residents  of  the  state,  a majority  being  women,  may  or- 
ganize a corporation  for  the  establishment  and  conduct  of  an 
industrial  school  for  girls,  the  object  of  which  in  each  case  shall 
be  to  provide  a home  and  proper  training  school  for  such  girls  as 
may  be  committed  to  the  charge  of  such  home. 

Any  responsible  resident  may  petition  any  court  of  record  in 
his  or  her  county  to  inquire  into  the  alleged  dependency  of  any 
female  infant  then  within  the  county.  It  shall  be  considered  that 
every  girl  under  eighteen  shall  be  dependent  for  the  purposes  of 
this  act  if  she  begs  or  receives  alms  while  selling  or  pretending 
to  sell  any  articles  in  public ; or  if  she  frequents  any  street,  alley 
or  other  place  for  the  purpose  of  begging  or  receiving  alms;  or  if 
she  has  no  permanent  place  of  abode  or  not  have  proper  paternal 
care  or  guardianship ; or  if  she  shall  not  have  sufficient  means  of 
subsistence,  or  from  any  cause  shall  be  a wanderer  through  streets 
and  alleys  or  other  public  places ; or  if  she  shall  live  with,  or  fre- 
quent, the  company  of,  or  consort  with,  reputed  thieves  or  other 
vicious  persons ; or  if  she  shall  be  found  in  a poor-house,  house  of 
ill  fame,  or  in  any  prison.  No  girl,  however,  who  is  an  “inmate” 
of  a house  of  ill  fame,  or  who  is  in  prison  charged  with  or  convicted 
of  any  penal  offense,  shall  come  within  the  provisions  of  this  act. 

In  every  case  a jury  of  six  shall  determine  whether  the  girl  is 
delinquent  or  not,  and  in  case  of  finding  that  she  is,  and  if  the  trial 
judge  shall  be  of  opinion  that  she  is  a fit  person  to  be  sent  to  such 
industrial  school,  the  judge  shall  enter  an  order  that  she  be  com- 


78  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

mitted  to  such  school  in  his  county  if  there  be  one,  but  if  no  such 
local  school,  then  to  any  such  school  elsewhere  in  the  state,  and 
that  she  be  kept  in  such  school  until  reaching  the  age  of  eighteen, 
unless  sooner  discharged  by  law.  Sections  ^20-^2^,  Chapter  122. 

The  officers  and  trustees  of  such  school  shall  provide  for  the 
support  and  comfort  of  such  girls ; instruct  them  in  such  branches 
of  useful  knowledge  as  may  be  suited  to  their  years  and  capaci- 
ties ; and  shall  cause  them  to  be  taught  in  domestic  avocations  such 
as  sewing  and  knitting,  and  housekeeping  in  all  its  departments. 
For  the  purpose  of  their  education  and  training,  and  that  they 
may  assist  in  their  own  support,  they  shall  be  required  to  pursue 
such  tasks  as  are  suitable  to  their  years  and  sex  and  which  may  be 
prescribed  by  the  officers  of  the  school.  Section  ^2p,  Chapter  122. 

Training  School  for  Boys. 

Under  another  act  corporations  similar  to  those  mentioned  in 
the  last  preceding  sections  may  be  organized  by  seven  or  more 
residents  of  the  state  with  the  object  of  establishing  training 
schools  for  boys.  Except  such  as  distinguishes  sex  and  that  with 
respect  to  age,  there  is  no  material  difference  between  the  two  acts. 
No  boy  shall  be  committed  who  shall  be  over  seventeen,  and  the 
commitment  in  every  case  shall  be  until  arrival  at  twenty-one  years 
of  age,  or  until  otherwise  discharged. 

In  addition  to  ordinary  instruction  every  boy  shall  have  instruc- 
tion and  training  in  some  trade  or  industrial  pursuit.  Sections  55^- 
5^7,  Chapter  122. 

Other  Schools  for  Delinquent  Children. 

Boards  of  education  and  school  directors  shall  be  empowered  to 
establish,  maintain  and  control  classes  and  schools  for  the  delin- 
quent children,  being  local  residents,  committed  by  courts  of  com- 
petent jurisdiction.  Sections  Chapter  122. 

There  are  various  other  statutes  relating  to  dependent,  neglected 
and  delinquent  children,  the  definitions  of  the  words  “dependent,” 
“neglected”  and  “delinquent”  and  the  dispositions  to  be  made  of 
the  unfortunates  not  agreeing  in  any  two  cases. 

IX.  PUBLIC  AND  PRIVATE  SCHOOLS. 
Compulsory  Attendance. 

Every  person  having  control  of  any  child  between  the  ages  of 
seven  and  sixteen  years,  shall  cause  such  child  to  attend  some 
public  or  private  school  for  the  entire  time  during  which  it  shall 
be  in  session  each  year  and  which  time  shall  not  be  less  than  six 
months.  This  act,  however,  shall  not  apply  in  case  the  child  has 
been  or  is  being  instructed  for  a like  period  in  each  and  every  year 
in  the  elementary  branches  of  education  by  person  or  persons  com- 
petent to  give  such  instruction,  or  in  case  the  child’s  physical  or  mental 
condition  renders  his  or  her  attendance  impracticable  or  inexpedi- 
ent, or  in  case  the  child  is  excused  for  temporary  absence  for  cause 
by  the  principal  or  teacher  of  the  school  which  said  child  attends, 
or  in  case  the  child  is  between  the  ages  of  fourteen  and  sixteen 


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years  and  is  necessarily  and  lawfully  employed  during  the  hours 
when  the  public  school  is  in  session. 

For  every  neglect  of  the  duty  prescribed  by  this  section,  the 
person  so  offending  shall  forfeit  a sum  not  less  than  five  nor  more 
than  twenty  dollars  and  costs  of  suit,  and  shall  stand  committed 
until  the  full  payment  thereof.  Truant  officers  shall  be  appointed 
] whose  duty  shall  be  to  make  complaint  in  all  known  violations 
aforesaid,  and  to  arrest  any  such  child  who  habitually  haunts 
public  places  and  has  no  lawful  occupation,  and  also  any  such  child 
i who  absents  himself  or  herself  from  school.  Sections  2'j^  and  .?75, 
Chapter  122. 

Truants. 

In  cities  of  100,000  or  more  there  shall  be  one  or  more  parental 
or  truant  schools  for  the  purpose  of  affording  a place  of  confine- 
ment, discipline,  instruction  and  maintenance  of  children  of  com- 
pulsory school  age  who  may  be  committed  thereto.  Section  140, 
Chapter  122. 

Upon  petition  of  a truant  officer  or  agent  of  the  board  of 
education,  or  of  any  reputable  citizen  of  the  city,  the  county  or 
circuit  court  may  commit  to  such  school  any  child  of  compulsory 
I age  who  is  not  attending  school,  and  who  has  been  guilty  of  habit- 
ual truancy  or  persistent  violation  of  the  rules  of  the  public  school. 
The  order  of  commitment  shall  require  such  child  to  be  kept  in 
such  school  until  he  or  she  attains  the  age  of  fourteen  years,  un- 
less sooner  discharged  according  to  law.  No  child  shall  be  so 
i committed  who  has  ever  been  convicted  of  any  offense  punishable 
i by  confinement  in  a penal  institution. 

] Children  so  committed  may  be  allowed  to  return  home  upon 
I parole,  but  no  parole  shall  be  granted  in  less  than  four  weeks  from 
j the  time  oT  confinement,  nor  at  any  time  thereafter  unless  the 
I superintendent  of  such  school  shall  have  become  satisfied  from  the 
! conduct  of  the  child  that,  if  paroled,  he  or  she  will  attend  regularly 
the  public  or  private  school  to  which  he  or  she  may  be  sent  by 
parents  or  guardian.  Sections  144,  145  and  147,  Chapter  122. 

By  a majority  vote  of  the  electors  such  schools  may  be  estab- 
lished and  maintained  in  cities  having  a population  of  over  25,000 
and  less  than  100,000.  Section  151,  Chapter  122. 

X.  BENEVOLENT  STATUTES. 

The  statutes  devoted  to  benevolent  objects  are  multifarious. 
The  principal  ones  apply  to  homes  for  the  blind,  deaf  and  dumb, 
insane,  feeble  minded,  epileptics,  foundlings,  indigents,  and  paupers. 
Others  provide  for  hospitals,  for  sanitariums  for  tubercular  pa- 
tients, for  treatment  of  poor  persons  afflicted  with  rabies,  and  for 
surgical  treatment  of  children  “suffering  from  physical  deformities 
or  injuries  of  a nature  likely  to  yield  to  surgical  skill  and  treat- 
ment.” 

Provision  is  made  for  the  maintenance  of  homes  for  soldiers 
and  sailors,  homes  for  the  mothers,  wives,  widows  and  daughters 
of  soldiers  and  sailors,  and  also  is  made  for  the  burial  of  soldiers 


80  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

and  marines,  and  of  their  mothers,  wives  and  widows.  An  act 
as  amended  in  1911  provides  that  in  certain  cases  dependent  and 
neglected  children  may  live  with  their  parents  or  guardians  and 
at  public  expense;  and  an  act  as  amended  in  1915  aims  to  give 
reasonable  allowance  to  every  deserving  mother  whose  husband  is 
dead  or  who  is  permanently  incapacitated  for  work,  or  who  has  been 
deserted  for  a period  of  two  years,  in  case  such  mother  shall  keep 
her  child  or  children  at  her  own  home,  the  extent  of  allowance  in 
such  case  to  depend  upon  the  number  of  children  under  fourteen. 
No  allowance  is  made  for  a child  over  fourteen  unless  at  any  time 
or  times  between  fourteen  and  sixteen  such  child  shall  be  ill  or 
be  incapacitated  for  work,  in  any  of  which  cases  the  mother  may 
have  the  usual  allowance  for  the  period  of  the  child’s  disability. 

Before  the  granting  of  such  relief  in  any  case  it  must  satisfactorily 
appear  to  the  juvenile  or  county  court  that  such  mother  is  a citizen 
of  the  United  States  and  for  three  years  last  past  has  been  a resident 
of  the  county  in  which  such  court  is  established ; that  the  child  or 
children  in  question  live  with  her ; that  continuation  of  such  residence 
will  promote  the  welfare  of  such  offspring;  that  she  is  physically, 
mentally  and  morally  competent  to  care  for  such  minor  child  or  chil- 
dren ; that  such  relief  is  necessary  in  order  to  give  such  minor  or 
minors  reasonable  care  and  sustenance ; that  there  are  no  other  rela- 
tives either  willing  or  able  to  support  such  child  or  children ; that  she 
owns  no  personal  property  other  than  household  goods ; and  that  she 
either  owns  no  realty  or  that  which  she  owns  does  not  yield  sufficient 
income  to  support  herself  and  said  child  or  children.  Orders  of  allow- 
ance in  such  cases  may  at  any  time  be  modified  or  vacated. 

Another  statute  provides  for  houses  of  shelter  designed  to  effect 
the  reformation  of  fallen  women. 

XL  EMPLOYMENT  STATUTES. 

The  statutes  covering  employment  and  kindred  subjects  are  exten- 
sive both  in  number  and  variety. 

Women. 

The  third  and  fourth  sections  of  the  chapter  (No.  48)  exclusively 
devoted  to  the  principal  subject  provide  that  on  account  of  sex  no 
person  shall  be  precluded  or  debarred  from  an}^  occupation,  pro- 
fession or  employment,  except  military,  but  that  this  shall  not  be 
construed  either  to  affect  the  eligibility  of  any  person  to  an  elective 
office  or  as  requiring  any  woman  to  work  on  streets  or  roads,  or  serve 
on  juries. 

No  female  shall  be  employed  in  any  mechanical  or  mercantile 
establishment,  or  factory,  or  laundr}^,  or  hotel,  or  restaurant,  or  tele- 
graph or  telephone  establishment  or  office  thereof,  or  in  any  place  of 
amusement,  or  by  any  person,  firm  or  corporation  engaged  in  any 
express  or  transportation  or  public  utility  business,  or  by  any  common 
carrier,  or  in  any  public  institution,  incorporated  or  unincorporated 
in  this  state,  more  than  ten  hours  during  any  one  day.  The  hours  of 
work  may  be  so  arranged  as  to  permit  the  employment  of  females 
at  any  time  so  that  they  shall  not  work  more  than  ten  hours  during 
the  twenty-four  hours  of  any  day.  The  violation  of  any  such  provi- 


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81 


sion  shall  be  punishable  by  a fine  of  not  less  than  $25  nor  more  than 
i $100.  Sections  i2i  and  122,  Chapter  48. 

Every  person,  firm  or  corporation  employing  females  in  any  fac- 
tory, mercantile  establishment,  mill  or  workshop  in  this  state,  shall 
provide  a reasonable  number  of  suitable  seats  for  the  use  of  such  em- 
ployes, and  shall  permit  the  use  of  such  seats  by  them  when  they  are 
not  necessarily  engaged  in  the  active  duties  for  which  they  are  em- 
ployed, and  shall  permit  the  use  of  such  seats  at  all  times  when  such 
use  would  not  actively  and  necessarily  interfere  with  the  proper  dis- 
charge of  the  duties  of  such  employes,  and  where  practicable,  such 
seats  shall  be  made  a permanent  fixture  and  may  be  so  constructed 
or  adjusted  that  when  they  are  not  in  use  they  will  not  obstruct  any 
such  employe  when  engaged  in  the  performance  of  her  duties.  The 
penalty  for  violation  of  this  section  is  fixed  at  not  less  than  $10  and 
not  more  than  $50  for  the  first  offense,  and  not  less  than  $25  nor 
more  than  $200  for  each  subsequent  offense.  Section  p7,  Chapter  48. 

Females  under  sixteen  years  of  age  shall  not  be  employed  in  any 
capacity  where  the  employment  would  compel  them  to  stand  con- 
stantly. Section  2oj,  Chapter  48. 

i Children. 

No  child  under  the  age  of  fourteen  years  shall  be  employed,  per- 
mitted or  suffered  to  work  at  any  gainful  occupation  in  any  theatre, 
concert  hall  or  place  of  amusement  where  intoxicating  liquors  are 
sold,  or  in  any  mercantile  institution,  store,  office,  hotel,  laundry, 
manufacturing  establishment,  bowling  alley,  passenger  or  freight 
elevator,  factory  or  workshop,  or  as  a messenger  or  driver  there- 
for, within  this  state. 

No  child  under  fourteen  years  of  age  shall  be  employed  at  any 
- work  performed  for  wages  or  other  compensation,  to  whomsoever  pay- 
able, during  any  portion  of  any  month  when  the  public  schools  of 
v the  town,  township,  village  or  city  in  which  he  or  she  resides  are  in 
* session,  nor  be  employed  at  any  work  before  the  hour  of  seven  in  the 
, morning  or  after  the  hour  of  six  in  the  evening:  Provided,  that  no 
t child  shall  be  allowed  to  work  more  than  eight  hours  in  any  one  day. 
Section  20,  Chapter  48. 

Under  section  20j  of  the  same  chapter  it  is  made  a misdemeanor 
to  employ  any  child  under  sixteen  at  any  of  many  enumerated  em- 
ployments  deemed  dangerous  to  life,  limb  or  health.  The  section  also 
forbids  the  employment  of  any  such  child  in  any  capacity  whatever  in 
the  manufacture  of  goods  for  immoral  purposes,  or  at  any  other  em- 
i ployment  of  character  likely  to  corrupt  morals,  or  in  any  theatre, 
A concert  hall  or  place  of  amusement  wherein  intoxicating  liquors  are 
M sold. 

According  to  an  amended  section  approved  May  10,  1901,  and 
the  publication  of  which  is  continued  in  the  Revised  Statutes,  being 
fj-  section  36  of  chapter  48,  “no  person  under  the  age  of  sixteen  years 
‘6  shall  be  employed  or  suffered  to  work  for  wages  at  any  gainful  occu- 
tr  pation  more  than  sixty  hours  in  any  one  week,  nor  more  than  ten 
i hours  in  any  one  day.” 

Under  a section  adopted  May  15,  1903,  however,  no  person  under 


62.  Keport  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

the  age  of  sixteen  years  shall  be  employed  or  suffered  or  permitted 
to  work  at  any  gainful  occupation  more  than  forty-eight  hours  in  any 
one  week,  nor  more  than  eight  hours  in  any  one  day.  It  further  pro- 
vides that  no  such  minor  shall  be  required  or  permitted  to  do  such 
work  either  before  seven  in  the  morning  or  after  seven  in  the  evening. 
Section  2g,  Chapter  48. 

Register  to  be  Kept. 

It  shall  be  the  duty  of  every  person,  firm  or  corporation,  agent  or 
manager  of  any  firm  or  corporation  employing  minors  over  fourteen 
and  under  sixteen  years  of  age  in 'any  mercantile  institution,  store, 
office,  hotel,  laundry,  manufacturing  establishment,  bowling  alley, 
theatre,  concert  hall  or  place  of  amusement,  passenger  or  freight 
elevator,  factory  or  workshop,  or  as  messenger  or  driver  therefor,  to 
keep  a register  in  which  shall  be  recorded  the  name,  age  and  place  of 
residence  of  every  such  minor  employed  or  suffered  or  permitted 
to  work  therein,  or  as  such  messenger  or  driver;  and  it  shall  be  un- 
lawful for  any  person,  firm,  or  corporation,  agent  or  manager,  to  hire 
or  employ,  or  to  permit  or  suffer  to  work  in  any  such  place,  or  to 
serve  as  messenger  or  driver  as  aforesaid,  any  such  minor  unless  an 
age  and  school  certificate  duly  approved  shall  first  be  produced  by  or 
for  such  minor,  and  such  certificate  shall  be  filed  by  such  employer. 
Section  20  a,  Chapter  48. 

Such  age  certificate  shall  be  subscribed  by  the  father,  mother, 
guardian  or  custodian  of  the  minor  and  shall  give  the  place  and  date 
of  birth,  and  shall  also  be  sworn  to  unless  corroborated  as  to  age  by 
the  last  school  census,  the  certificate  of  birth  or  baptism  of  the  child, 
or  by  the  records  of  the  public  or  parochial  schools.  Sections  20  f 
and  20  e,  Chapter  48. 

Such  school  certificate,  when  given  in  the  case  of  any  such  minor 
who  is  or  has  been  in  attendance  upon  a day  school,  shall  be  signed  by 
the  teacher  in  charge  of  the  grade  to  which  such  minor  belongs  or 
belonged,  and  shall  certify  that  such  minor  can  read  simple  sentences 
and  also  write  the  same  legibly.  Such  teachers  shall  also  certify  that 
the  records  of  such  school  disclose  the  alleged  birthplace  and  the 
date  of  birth  of  such  minor,  and  that  he  or  she  (the  teacher)  believes 
the  same  to  be  authentic.  Section  20  f.  Chapter  48.  In  case  of  an 
attendance  upon  an  evening  school,  the  pupil’s  actual  teacher,  also 
the  principal  of  the  school,  shall  certify  that  such  minor  pupil  is  reg- 
istered in  and  regularly  attends  such  school.  They  shall  also  certify 
as  to  records  of  birth  in  the  same  manner  as  is  required  in  the  case  of 
day  school  certificates.  Should  any  such  minor  “be  unable  to  read 
at  sight  and  write  legibly  simple  sentences,”  such  fact  shall.be  noted 
in  the  certificate  of  the  teacher  and  principal,  but  no  such  certificate 
shall  remain  in  force  unless  it  shall  be  certified  weekly  by  such  teacher 
and  principal  that  the  pupil  in  question  is  in  regular  attendance  upon 
such  evening  school.  Section  20  f,  Chapter  48. 

An  age  and  school  certificate  shall  be  approved  only  by  the  super- 
intendent of  schools  or  by  a person  authorized  by  him  or  her  in  writing ; 
or  where  there  is  no  such  superintendent,  by  a person  authorized  by 
the  school  board : Provided,  however,  that  the  superintendent  or 
principal  of  a parochial  school  shall  have  the  right  to  make  such 


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approval  in  the  case  of  any  child  attending  such  latter  school.  Sec- 
tion 20  d.  Chapter  48. 

In  any  city  or  town  in  which  there  is  no  public  or  parochial 
evening  school,  an  age  and  school  certificate  shall  not  be  approved  for 
a child  under  the  age  of  sixteen  years  who  cannot  read  at  sight  and 
write  legibly  simple  sentences ; and  in  cities  and  towns  having  a public 
evening  school,  no  person  while  such  school  is  in  operation  shall  em- 
ploy any  minor  between  the  ages  of  fourteen  and  sixteen  years  who 
cannot  so  read  and  write,  nor  shall  any  parent,  guardian  or  custodian 
permit  to  be  employed  any  such  minor  under  his  or  her  control, 
unless  such  minor  .shall  be  'la  regular  attendant  at  such  school. 
Sections  20  f and  20  g,  Chapter  48. 

Every  employer,  agent  or  manager  violating  any  of  the  foregoing 
provisions  shall  be  subject  to  a fine  of  not  less  than  $5  nor  more  than 
$100  for  each  offense,  and  stand  committed  until  the  full  payment  of 
fine  and  costs ; every  parent,  guardian  or  custodian  permitting  any 
such  minor  under  his  control  to  be  employed  as  aforesaid  shall  be 
liable  to  a fine  of  not  less  than  $5  nor  more  than  $25,  and  likewise 
stand  committed;  and  a fine  of  not  less  than  $5  nor  more  than  $100 
shall  be  imposed  upon  every  person  convicted  of  making  any  ma- 
terially false  statement  in  either  of  the  certificates  mentioned,  the 
convicted  person  to  stand  committed  until  full  payment  as  aforesaid. 
Section  20  m,  Chapter  48. 

Health,  Safety  and  Comfort  of  Employes. 

Among  the  many  penal  statutes  that  relate  to  the  health  and 
comfort  of  employes  are  those  concerning  occupational  diseases, 
plumbing,  ventilation,  temperature,  light,  poisonous  and  noxious 
fumes,  dust,  refuse,  overcrowding  of  rooms,  unreasonable  hours  of 
employment,  wash  and  dressing  rooms  and  other  conveniences,  and 
the  regular  sanitary  inspection  of  factories,  mercantile  establish- 
ments, mills,  workshops,  mines  and  certain  tenements. 

Principal  among  the  penal  statutes  enacted  to  safeguard  the  lives 
and  limbs  of  employes  come  such  as  have  application  to  machinery, 
fire  escapes,  scaffolds,  fire  fighting  and  rescue  stations  in  mines,  de- 
signs of  buildings  used  for  certain  purposes,  and  official  inspection  at 
stated  times  of  factory  and  certain  other  buildings. 

In  all  factories,  mercantile  establishments,  mills  and  workshops 
sufficient  and  reasonable  means  of  escape  in  case  of  fire  shall  be  pro- 
vided by  more  than  one  means  of  egress,  shall  always  so  be  kept  in 
good  repair  and  ready  for  use;  all  stairways  shall  be  safe  and  sub- 
stantial and  have  hand  rails  of  like  character;  all  machinery  of  each 
establishment  must  be  inspected  daily  by  its  operators ; all  hatchways, 
elevator  wells  or  other  openings  in  floors  must  be  properly  enclosed 
or  guarded;  ample  and  separate  toilet  facilities  for  each  sex  must  be 
provided ; all  parts  of  the  premises  must  be  kept  in  a clean  and  sanitary 
condition ; reasonable  light  and  heat  must  be  furnished ; and  in  every 
such  building  that  is  of  two  stories  or  over  in  height  all  doors  used 
by  employes  as  entrances  to  or  exits  from  the  same  must  open  out- 
ward, slide  or  roll,  and  be  so  constructed  as  to  be  opened  from  within 
easily  and  immediately  in  case  of  fire  or  other  emergency. 

The  penalties  for  violation  of  the  statutes  in  relation  to  the  health. 


84  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

comfort  and  safety  of  employes  are  various,  running  from  those 
subject  to  a fine  of  not  less  than  $3,  but  no  imprisonment,  to  those 
subject  to  a fine  of  not  less  than  $25  nor  more  than  $500,  or  imprison- 
ment for  not  less  than  three  months  nor  more  than  two  years,  or  both 
fine  and  imprisonment,  in  the  discretion  of  the  court. 

Employment  Offices. 

The  state  maintains  free  employment  offices  in  cities  of  not  less 
than  fifty  thousand  population.  The  superintendents  of  these  offices 
are  authorized  to  advertise  in  newspapers  or  otherwise  for  such 
situations  as  they  may  respectively  have  applicants  to  fill. 

The  state  board  of  commissioners  of  labor  may  grant  licenses  to 
conduct  private  employment  agencies,  the  exclusive  right  to  grant  any 
such  license  being  confided  to  such  board.  No  such  agency  shall  be 
located  on  premises  where  intoxicating  liquors  are  sold,  exception 
being  made,  however,  in  the  case  of  any  office  building  in  which  there 
may  be  a cafe  or  restaurant  in  which  such  liquors  are  furnished 
guests. 

No  person  holding  such  license  shall  send,  or  cause  to  be  sent, 
any  female  help  or  servants,  or  inmate  or  performer,  to  enter  any 
questionable  place  or  place  of  bad  repute,  house  of  ill  fame,  assig- 
nation house,  house  or  place  of  amusement  kept  for  immoral  purposes, 
place  resorted  to  for  the  purpose  of  prostitution,  or  gambling  house, 
the  character  of  any  of  which  such  licensed  person  knows,  either 
actually  or  by  reputation. 

No  such  licensed  person  shall  knowingly  permit  questionable  char- 
acters, prostitutes,  gamblers,  intoxicated  persons,  or  procurers  to 
frequent  such  agency ; nor  shall  any  such  licensed  person  accept  any 
application  for  employment  made  by  or  on  behalf  of  any  child  under 
fourteen  years  of  age,  or  place  or  assist  in  placing  any  such  child 
in  any  employment  prohibited  in  section  20  of  chapter  48,  which 
section  is  hereinbefore  given.  Any  violation  of  the  foregoing  is 
made  punishable  by  revocation  of  the  license,  also  by  fine  of  not  less 
than  $50  nor  more  than  $200,  or  imprisonment  in  the  county  jail  or 
house  of  correction  not  exceeding  one  year,  or  by  both  such  fine  and 
imprisonment.  Section  by  f,  Chapter  48. 

Compensation  for  Accidental  Injuries  and  Death. 

The  act  of  June  10,  1911,  providing  compensation  for  accidental 
injuries  or  death  suffered  by  employes  in  the  course  of  any  of  cer- 
tain employments  gives  to  employers  the  right  to  place  themselves 
beyond  the  main  provisions  of  the  act  and  to  have  actions  of  such 
nature  determined  in  other  manner,  but  the  act  provides,  and  very 
wisely  and  humanely,  that  while  any  such  employer  may  elect  to 
have  all  such  cases  against  him  or  it  tried  by  judge  and  jury  as  of 
old,  yet  that  such  election,  happily,  shall  in  no  case  operate  to  re- 
store either  of  the  three  notoriously  pernicious  rules  that  for  so  long 
a period  had  tainted  the  administration  of  justice  in  Illinois,  and 
which  still,  unfortunately,  obtain  in  a few  other  common-law  com- 
monwealths. In  actions  of  this  nature  no  employer  in  this  state 
can  longer  escape  liability  because  the  employe  assumed  the  risks 
incident  to  the  employment,  because  the  injury  or  death  was  caused 


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85 


in  whole  or  in  part  by  the  negligence  of  a fellow  servant,  or  be- 
cause the  injury  or  death  was  proximately  caused  by  the  con- 
tributory negligence  of  the  employe  by  whom  or  for  whom  or  for 
whose  estate  recovery  is  sought.  In  the  latter  case,  however,  such 
contributory  negligence  shall  be  considered  by  the  jury  in  reducing 
the  amount  of  damages.  Sections  126-152,  Chapter  48- 

This  act  is  appropriately  entitled  An  Act  to  promote  the  general 
welfare  of  the  people  of  this  state,” — and  while  its  provisions  might 
in  some  respects  be  more  liberal  to  injured  employes  and  to  the  de- 
pendents of  those  killed,  yet  as  it  stands  it  is  freighted  with  much 
that  will  operate  not  only  for  the  good  of  persons  directly  affected  but 
of  society  in  general. 

XII.  EMPLOYMENT  DECISIONS. 

General  Remarks. 

The  preamble  to  the  constitution  of  Illinois  reads : 

We,  the  people  of  the  state  of  Illinois — grateful  to  Almighty 
God  for  the  civil,  political  and  religious  liberty  which  He  hath  so 
long  permitted  us  to  enjoy,  and  looking  to  Him  for  a blessing  upon 
our  endeavors  to  secure  and  transmit  the  same  unimpaired  to  suc- 
ceeding generations — in  order  to  form  a more  perfect  government, 
establish  justice,  insure  domestic  tranquillity,  provide  for  the  com- 
mon defense,  promote  the  general  welfare,  and-secure  the  blessings 
of  liberty  to  ourselves  and  our  posterity,  do  ordain  and  establish 
this  constitution  for  the  state  of  Illinois. 

Article  I of  the  constitution  relates  exclusively  to  the  boundaries 
of  the  state.  The  bill  of  rights  constitutes  Article  H and  consists  of 
twenty  sections.  Sections  1 and  2 of  such  bill  read  as  follows : 

1.  All  men  are  by  nature  free  and  independent,  and  have  cer- 
tain inherent  and  inalienable  rights — among  these  are  life,  liberty, 
and  the  pursuit  of  happiness.  To  secure  these  rights  and  the  pro- 
tection of  property,  governments  are  instituted  among  men,  deriv- 
ing their  just  powers  front  the  consent  of  the  governed. 

2.  No  person  shall  be  deprived  of  life,  liberty  or  property, 
without  due  process  of  law. 

For  many  years  certain  labor  statutes  transplanted  from  other 
states  did  not  thrive  in  Illinois.  They  seemed  to  be  adapted  neither 
to  the  political  nor  judicial  soil  of  this  state.  Those  that  were  not 
killed  by  the  supreme  court  had  no  influence  and  commanded  no  re- 
spect. They  were  permitted  to  live  but  that  was  all.  They  were 
carried  in  the  Revised  Statutes  from  year  to  year  but  were  never 
summoned  to  do  service,  and  the  penalties  named  in  them  inspired 
no  more  fear  than  urchins  have  for  stone  lions  in  a familiar  dooryard. 

They  were  as  contemptuously  treated  as  was  Gulliver  by  the  queen’s 
dwarf — were  apparently  as  out  of  place  among  their  fellow  statutes 
as  would  be  a humorous  story  in  the  Holy  Writ.  Their  influence  nil, 
their  energies  withered,  their  vitality  sapped,  their  very  existence  ig- 
nored, these  statutes,  if  animate,  instead  of  entertaining  dread  of  dis- 
solution, must,  in  their  loneliness  and  misery,  have  prayed  for  the 
speedy  coming  of  the  message  that  would  end  it  all. 


86  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Those  that  were  given  the  judicial  axe  were  declared  by  their  ex- 
ecutioner to  be  hostile  to  those  parts  of  the  state  constitution  herein- 
before quoted,  and  wholly  repugnant  to  the  italicized  portions  of  such 
quotations.  A brief  history  follows  both  of  those  that  perished  and 
those  that  survived. 

Aliens. 

In  City  of  Chicago  v.  Hulhert,  205  III,  ^46  (decided  in  December, 
1903),  sections  10,  11  and  12  of  chapter  6 were  declared  unconsti- 
tutional. It  was  intended  by  these  sections  to  prevent  any  board, 
commission,  office  or  other  person  acting  either  for  the  state  or 
any  municipality  within  it  from  employing  any  person  other  than  a 
native  born  or  naturalized  citizen,  or  person  who  had  in  good  faith 
declared  his  intention  to  become  a citizen,  when  such  employe  was 
to  be  paid,  in  whole  or  in  part,  directly  or  indirectly,  out  of  any 
public  funds  by  taxation.  Contractors  and  sub-contractors  engaging 
to  do  work  for  such  municipalities  were  likewise  enjoined.  The  act 
containing  these  sections  was  approved  June  1,  1889.  At  the  time 
of  the  enactment  most  citizens  of  the  state  favored  all  of  the  provi- 
sions mentioned,  believed  them  to  be  just.  This  belief  was  generally 
entertained  also  by  persons  then  in  the  state  who  had  not  been  natural- 
ized but  had  declared  intention  to  become  such.  The  court’s  holding 
was  disappointing  to  both  classes. 

Hours  of  Labor. 

Another  act,  born  of  a reasonably  popular  demand  for  relief, 
came  into  being  March  5,  1867.  Although  undisturbed  in  the  main, 
either  by  the  general  assembly  or  by  the  courts,  it  has  not  borne 
expected  fruit.  It  has  been  as  abortive  as  the  command  of  a false 
Joshua.  In  fact,  it  was  emasculated  in  its  making.  It  did  not 
measure  with  the  object  sought  by  the  advocates  of  the  passage  of 
a bill  reducing  the  hours  of  labor. 

This  act  (sections  1 and  2,  chapter  48)  reads  as  follows: 

Sec.  I.  On  and  after  the  first  day  of  May,  1867,  eight  hours  of  labor 
between  the  rising  and  setting  of  the  sun,  in  all  mechanical  trades,  arts 
and  emplo3nnents,  and  other  cases  of  labor  and  service  by  the  day,  ex- 
cept farm  employments,  shall  constitute  and  be  a legal  day’s  work, 
where  there  is  no  special  contract  or  agreement  to  the  contrary. 

Sec.  2.  This  act  shall  not  apply  to  or  in  any  way  affect  labor  or 
service  by  the  year,  month  or  week;  nor  shall  any  person  be  prevented 
by  anything  herein  contained  from  working  as  many  hours  over  time 
or  extra  hours  as  he  or  she  may  agree,  and  shall  not,  in  any  sense, 
be  held  to  apply  to  farm  labor. 

This  piece  of  legislation  was  launched  as  a sop.  It  has  served  as 
such  ever  since  although  a much  more  sterile  act  cannot  be  imagined. 
The  declaration  that  eight  hours  of  labor  shall  constitute  a legal  day’s 
work  is  practically  neutralized  by  the  exceptions  that  follow. 

Whether  in  1867  or  1877,  the  number  of  paid  workers  having  em- 
ployers willing  to  give  a full  day’s  pay  for  eight  hours  of  labor  must 
have  been  insignificant  as  compared  with  the  aggregate  number  of  paid 
workers  employed  by  the  week,  month  and  year  and  those  employed 
by  the  day  under  “special  contract  or  agreement”  to  put  in  nine  or  ten 
or  more  hours’  work  a day,  and  regardless  of  the  sun.  A like  pre- 


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87 


ponderance  is  found  even  now  notwithstanding  the  victories  in  this 
regard  in  recent  years  of  certain  classes  of  the  employed. 

These  victories  were  achieved  without  aid  of  statutes.  Legislation, 
either  state  or  national,  has  never  accomplished  much  in  this  direction 
for  ordinary  workers.  Eight  hours  the  day  statutes,  rules  and  regulations 
have  up  to  this  time  had  application  principally  to  persons  in  the  public 
pay  and  to  inmates  of  penitentiaries  and  workhouses.  The  thousands 
of  workers  for  private  employers  who  now  work  two  hours  less  the 
day  than  was  required  in  like  employments  but  a few  years  ago,  and 
whose  pay  has  not  been  diminished  because  of  the  change,  owe  their 
betterment  to  themselves  and  to  their  unions  and  not  to  legislation. 

Not  many  workers  of  the  favored  classes  mentioned  would  now  be 
drawing  in  Illinois  or  elsewhere  a full  day’s  pay  for  eight  hours’  work 
if  labor  unions  had  delayed  their  demands  in  that  behalf  in  expectancy 
of  statutes  framed  and  actually  designed  to  accomplish  the  desired  end. 
Indeed,  such  delay  might  have  precipitated  legislation  calculated  to 
hinder  the  success  of  their  efforts  if  we  may  consider  as  being  signifi- 
cant in  that  connection  an  Illinois  act  approved  June  9,  1893,  and  to 
which  allusion  has  herein  already  been  made. 

Notwithstanding  the  “eight  hours  a legal  day’s  work”  statute 
(a  statute  presumably  applicable  to  all  persons,  adults  or  otherwise), 
the  act  in  question,  being  entitled,  “An  Act  to  regulate  the  employment 
of  children  in  the  state  of  Illinois,  and  to  provide  for  the  enforce- 
ment thereof,”  contains  the  following:  “No  person  under  the  age 
of  sixteen  years  shall  be  employed  or  suffered  to  work  for  wages  at 
any  gainful  occupation  more  than  sixty  hours  in  any  one  week,  nor 
more  than  ten  hours  in  any  one  day  Section  jd.  Chapter  48. 

It  is  not  unreasonable  to  believe  that  the  arguments  and  influences 
leading  to  the  enactment  of  such  a law  respecting  children  must  have 
been  more  cogent  than  those  essential  to  tighten  the  grip  of  employers 
in  the  case  of  workers  of  full  age. 

Another  act  similarly  entitled  (both  acts  are  incorporated  in  the 
Revised  Statutes)  was  approved  May  15,  1903.  As  previously  men- 
tioned herein,  such  act  provides  that  “no  person  under  the  age  of 
sixteen  years  shall  be  employed  or  suffered  or  permitted  to  work  at  any 
gainful  occupation  more  than  forty-eight  hours  in  any  one  week,  nor 
more  than  eight  hours  in  any  one  day;  or  before  the  hour  of  seven  in 
the  morning  or  after  the  hour  of  seven  o’clock  in  the  evening.” 
Section  20  I,  Chapter  48. 

XIII.  THE  OBNOXIOUS  RITCHIE  DECISION. 

An  act  approved  June  17,  1893,  and  relating  to  the  regulation  of 
the  manufacture  of  clothing,  provides  that  “no  female  shall  be  em- 
ployed in  any  factory  or  workshop  more  than  eight  hours  in  any  one 
day  or  forty-eight  hours  in  any  one  week.”  Section  2g,  Chapter  48. 

In  March,  1895,  this  section  was  held  unconstitutional  in  Ritchie 
V.  The  People,  155  III.,  p8.  Ritchie  had  been  convicted  in  the  crim- 
inal court  of  Cook  county,  to  which  he  had  appealed  from  a con- 
viction before  a justice  of  the  peace.  The  charge  was  “that  on  a certain 
day  in  February,  1894,  plaintiff  in  error  employed  a certain  adult 


88  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

female  of  the  age  of  more  than  eighteen  years  to  work  in  a factor)' 
for  more  than  eight  hours  during  said  day.” 

Eight  other  similar  cases  then  pending  in  the  supreme  court 
were  controlled  by  the  Ritchie  decision,  and  the  judgment  of  con- 
viction in  each  of  the  eight,  accordingly,  was  reversed. 

In  the  Hulbert  case  hereinbefore  referred  to  (20^  III,  346),  the 
court  said  that  as  it  had  repeatedly  held  that  city  ordinances  prohibit- 
ing the  employment  of  aliens  to  do  public  work  were  “in  contravention 
of  the  constitution  and  the  right  of  individuals  to  contract,”  the 
statute  in  question  must  also  be  declared  void  upon  the  same  grounds, 
and  that  neither  a city  nor  a contractor  “was  under  any  obligation  to 
observe”  such  statute. 

It  was  contended  by  the  prosecution  in  the  Ritchie  case  that  the 
statute  forbidding  the  employment  of  women  to  work  more  than  eight 
hours  a day  should  be  upheld  as  being  “a  sanitary  provision,  and  justi- 
fiable as  an  exercise  of  the  police  power  of  the  state.”  The  court 
held  that  “there  is  nothing  to  indicate  that  it  is  a sanitary  measure,” 
and  that  “there  is  nothing  in  the  nature  of  the  employment  contem- 
plated by  the  act  which  is  in  itself  unhealthy,  or  unlawful,  or  injurious 
to  the  public  morals  or  welfare.” 

Regarding  the  claim  as  to  police  power  of  the  state,  the  court, 
defining  such  power  as  that  which  enables  the  state  to  promote  the 
health,  comfort,  safety  and  welfare  of  society,  and  admitting  the 
power  to  be  very  broad  and  far  reaching,  yet  declared  that  it  is  not 
without  limitations,  and  that  it  could  not  properly  obtain  in  the  case 
at  bar.  “There  is  no  reasonable  ground,”  said  the  court,  “for  fixing 
upon  eight  hours  in  one  day  as  the  limit  within  which  woman  can 
work  without  injury  to  her  physique,  and  beyond  which,  if  she  work, 
injury  will  necessarily  follow.” 

In  the  main,  the  case  was  reversed  because  of  the  court’s  holding 
that  the  statute  was  in  conflict  with  sections  1 and  2 of  article  2 of 
the  constitution  of  Illinois.  These  sections  relate  to  life,  liberty  and 
property,  and  provide  that  no  person  shall  be  deprived  of  either  without 
due  process  of  law.  The  court  held  that  the  privilege  of  contracting 
is  both  a liberty  and  property  right ; that  labor  is  property ; that  the 
legislature  has  no  power  to  prevent  competent  persons  from  making 
their  own  contracts;  that  it  cannot  substitute  its  judgment  for  the 
judgment  of  the  employer  and  employe;  that  the  right  to  a choice  of 
vocations  and  the  right  to  contract  for  labor  are  no  greater  in  the  case 
of  persons  of  one  sex  than  those  of  the  other;  and  ordinarily,  that 
either  man  or  woman  has  an  absolute  right  to  sell  as  many  hours  of 
labor  a day  as  he  or  she  may  elect  to  sell. 

LAW  OF  1867  WAS  NOT  SERIOUSLY  REGARDED. 

That  the  court  was  of  the  opinion  that  the  “sop”  legislation  already 
mentioned  did  not  bring  many  employes  within  the  “eight  hours” 
provision  is  evidenced  by  this  language  in  the  Ritchie  opinion : 

“Where  the  subject  of  contract  is  purely  and  exclusivelj-  private, 
unaffected  by  any  public  interest  or  duty  to  person,  to  society  or 
government,  and  the  parties  are  capable  of  contracting,  there  is  no 
condition  existing  upon  which  the  legislature  can  interfere  for  the 


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purpose  of  prohibiting  the  contract,  or  controlling  the  terms  thereof. 

An  instance  of  the  care  with  which  this  right  to  contract  has 
been  guarded  may  be  found  in  chapter  48  of  the  Revised  Statutes  of 
this  state,  where  an  act,  passed  in  1867,  makes  eight  hours  of  labor 
in  certain  emplojnnents  a legal  day’s  work,  ‘where  there  is  no  special  con- 
tract or  agreement  to  the  contrary’ ; and  the  second  section  of  which  act 
contains  the  following  provision:  ‘Nor  shall  any  person  be  prevented 
by  anything  herein  contained  from  working  as  many  hours  overtime 
or  extra  hours  as  he  or  she  may  agree.’  ” 

The  decision  in  this  case  was  not  at  all  based  upon  the  fact 
that  the  act  under  review  related  to  the  regulation  of  the  manufacture 
of  clothing  and  to  no  other  manufacture,  and  the  provision  as  to 
hours  of  labor,  therefore,  savoring  of  special  legislation.  In  this  con- 
nection the  court  said : 

“We  are  inclined  to  regard  the  act  as  one  which  is  partial  and  dis- 
criminating in  its  character.  If  it  be  construed  as  applying  only  to 
manufacturers  of  clothing,  wearing  apparel  and  articles  of  a similar 
nature,  we  can  see  no  reasonable  ground  for  prohibiting  such  manu- 
facturers and  their  employes  from  contracting  for  more  than  eight 
hours  of  work  in  one  day,  while  other  manufacturers  and  their  em- 
ployes are  not  forbidden  so  to  contract. 

“If  the  act  be  construed  as  applying  to  manufacturers  of  all  kinds 
of  products,  there  is  no  good  reason  why  the  prohibition  should  be 
directed  against  manufacturers  and  their  employes,  and  not  against 
merchants,  or  builders,  or  contractors,  or  carriers,  or  farmers,  or  per- 
sons engaged  in  other  branches  of  industry,  and  their  employes 
therein. 

“Women  employed  by  manufacturers  are  forbidden  by  section  5 
to  make  contracts  to  labor  longer  than  eight  hours  in  a day,  while 
women  employed  as  saleswomen  in  stores,  or  as  domestic  servants, 
or  as  bookkeepers,  or  stenographers,  or  typewriters,  or  in  laundries, 
or  other  occupations  not  embraced  under  the  head  of  manufacturing, 
are  at  liberty  to  contract  for  as  many  hours  of  labor  in  a day  as  they 
choose.  The  manner  in  which  the  section  thus  discriminates  against 
one  class  of  employers  and  employes  and  in  favor  of  all  others,  places 
it  in  opposition  to  the  constitutional  guaranties  hereinbefore  dis- 
cussed, and  so  renders  it  invalid.’’ 

XIV.  INCONSISTENCIES  IN  THE  OBNOXIOUS  RITCHIE 

OPINION. 

It  was  pointed  out  to  the  court  in  the  Ritchie  case  mentioned  (an- 
other Ritchie  case  will  be  alluded  to  later)  that  a Massachusetts  statute 
regulating  the  hours  of  work  of  women  in  factories  had  been  sus- 
tained by  the  supreme  court  of  that  state.  The  Illinois  court  was  of 
opinion  that  the  constitution  of  Massachusetts  leaves  more  to  the  dis- 
cretion of  the  legislature  than  is  the  case  in  Illinois,  basing  such  opin- 
ion upon  the  fact  that  the  Massachusetts  constitution  declares  that 
any  statute  which  is  not  in  conflict  with  the  constitution  may  be  or- 
dained by  the  legislature  if  it  shall  judge  the  same  “to  be  for  the  good 
and  welfare  of  the  commonwealth,  and  for  the  governing  and  ordering 
thereof,  and  of  the  subjects  of  the  same.”  Hence,  sagely  said  the 
Illinois  court,  the  Massachusetts  legislature  has  “the  power  to  ordain 
all  manner  of  wholesome  and  reasonable  statutes,  with  or  without 
penalties,  not  repugnant  to  the  constitution.” 

The  real  reading  of  that  particular  part  of  the  Massachusetts  con- 
stitution was  and  is  as  follows  : 

Full  power  and  authority  are  hereby  given  to  the  said  general 


90  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

court  (the  legislature  of  that  state  is  so  styled),  from  time  to  time,  to 
make,  ordain  and  establish,  all  manner  of  wholesome  and  reasonable 
orders,  laws,  statutes  and  ordinances,  directions  and  instructions,  either 
with  penalties  or  without,  so  as  the  same  he  not  repugnant  to  this  con- 
stitution, as  it  shall  judge  to  be  for  the  good  and  welfare  of  this  com- 
monwealth, and  for  the  governing  and  ordering  thereof,  and  of  the 
subjects  of  the  same. 

True,  it  nowhere  expressly  appears  in  the  Illinois  constitution  that 
the  general  assembly  may  properly  enact  laws  judged  by  it  “to  be  for 
the  good  and  welfare”  of  the  people  of  Illinois,  provided  that  such 
enactments  shall  violate  no  provision  or  provisions  of  the  constitution. 
It  is  equally  true,  however,  that  in  this  as  in  other  respects  the  Ritchie 
opinion  is  anomalous — that  bench  and  bar  and  law-writers  generally 
agree  that  such  silence  is  not  significant — and  that,  therefore,  words 
in  that  regard  in  the  Massachusetts  constitution  are  superfluous;  that 
they  are  merely  declaratory  of  the  law  as  it  has  been  in  every  Amer- 
ican commonwealth  or  state  since  the  adoption  of  its  first  constitution ; 
that  they  give  no  unusual  powers  to  the  legislature  or  general  court 
of  Massachusetts ; and  that  in  the  absence  of  such  expressions  in  the 
constitution  the  general  court  or  assembly  may  legislate  upon  any 
subject  if  the  same  shall  not  be  in  conflict  with  or  repugnant  to  the 
constitution. 

In  this  particular,  the  supreme  court  of  Massachusetts  has  never 
held  that  the  constitution  of  that  state  gives  greater  license  or  latitude 
to  the  general  court  than  that  granted  by  sister  state  constitutions  to 
their  respective  legislatures.  The  right  so  to  enact  is  implied  under 
every  American  state  constitution,  else  the  legislature  forever  be  in 
the  dark;  many  of  its  enactments,  though  there  be  crying  need  for  their 
immediate  effect,  be  so  uncertain  as  first  to  require  determination  by 
the  supreme  court  whether  they  should  live  or  die  or  be  eunuchated ; 
and  the  “palladium  of  the  people’s  rights”  be  a curse  “to  the  good  and 
welfare  of  the  commonwealth.” 

A STRAINED  OPINION. 

Strained,  too,  is  the  Ritchie  opinion  in  its  references  to  certain  pro- 
visions of  the  Massachusetts  and  Illinois  constitutions.  As  previously 
observed,  the  case  was  reversed  because  the  statute  in  question  was 
considered  to  be  incapable  of  reconciliation  with  the  Illinois  preamble 
to  the  constitution  and  the  two  sections  of  the  bill  of  rights  already 
quoted.  Comparison  of  such  preamble  with  that  of  IMassachusetts 
does  not  appear  to  reveal  the  alleged  distinction  relied  upon  by  the 
Illinois  judges.  To  most  persons  the  declarations  of  the  two  states 
look  very  much  alike.  The  Massachusetts  preamble  reads  as  follows : 

The  end  of  the  institution,  maintenance,  and  administration  of  gov- 
ernment, is  to  secure  the  existence  of  the  body  politic,  to  protect  it,  and 
to  furnish  the  individuals  who  compose  it  with  the  powers  of  enjoying 
in  safety  and  tranquillity  their  natural  rights,  and  the  blessings  of 
life;  and  whenever  these  great  objects  are  not  attained,  the  people  have 
a right  to  alter  the  government,  and  to  take  measures  necessary  for  their 
safety,  prosperity  and  happiness.  * * *. 

As  in  the  case  of  the  preambles,  so  much  of  either  of  the  two  bills 
of  rights  as  concerns  the  question  involved,  would  strike  the  great  body 
of  English-speaking  persons  as  being  essentially  the  same  as  that 
embodied  in  the  other ; and  not  many  persons  would  fail  to  pronounce 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


91 


the  language  of  the  Illinois  court  in  such  regard  as  being  hypercritical 
rather  than  sensible  and  sound.  The  pertinent  part  of  the  Massachu- 
setts bill  reads : 

All  men  are  born  free  and  equal,  and  have  certain  natural,  essential 
and  unalienable  rights ; among  which  may  be  reckoned  the  right  of  en- 
joying and  defending  their  lives  and  liberties;  that  of  acquiring,  possess- 
ing and  protecting  property;  in  fine,  that  of  seeking  and  obtaining  their 
safety  and  happiness. 

In  April,  1903,  eight  years  after  the  rendition  of  the  Ritchie  opin- 
ion, the  supreme  court  of  Illinois  stood  by  its  reasoning  in  that  case 
in  Mathews  v.  People,  202  III.,  ^8p;  and  again  adhered  to  it  in  October, 
1905,  in  O’Brien  v.  People,  216  III,  555. 

DOCTRINE  NOT  GENERALLY  FAVORED  ELSEWHERE. 

Happily,  the  doctrine  of  these  cases  has  not  in  recent  years  met 
with  favor  in  many  jurisdictions.  The  supreme  court  of  the  United 
States  rejected  it  in  February,  1908,  Mr.  Justice  Brewer  delivering 
the  opinion.  Muller  v.  Oregon,  208  U.  S.,  412.  The  Oregon  statute 
prohibits  the  employment  of  women  in  certain  callings  for  more  than 
ten  hours  in  any  one  day.  Muller,  the  proprietor  of  a laundry,  was 
convicted  upon  the  charge  of  having  violated  the  statute.  The  Oregon 
bill  of  rights  is  substantially  the  same  as  that  of  Illinois ; and  prac- 
tically the  same  arguments  were  made  by  Muller’s  counsel  as  had  been 
made  and  sustained  in  the  first  Ritchie  case. 

The  supreme  court  of  Oregon  sustained  the  conviction.  State  v. 
Muller,  48  Ore.,  2^2.  Muller  then  sought  to  escape  punishment  by 
alleged  conflict  between  the  Oregon  statute  and  so  much  of  the  four- 
teenth amendment  of  the  federal  constitution  as  reads : 

No  state  shall  make  or  enforce  any  law  which  shall  abridge  the 
privileges  or  immunities  of  citizens  of  the  United  States,  nor  shall  any 
state  deprive  any  person  of  life,  liberty  or  property,  without  due  process 
of  law,  nor  deny  to  any  person  within  its  jurisdiction  the  equal  pro- 
tection of  the  laws. 

It  was  contended  in  the  Ritchie  case  that  with  respect  to  contracts 
and  property  the  rights  of  women  are  identical  with  those  of  men,  and 
that  statutes  regulating  the  hours  of  labor,  if  ever  valid,  must  be  the 
same  in  the  case  of  one  sex  as  the  other.  To  the  first  proposition  the 
federal  court  assented,  but  the  soundness  of  the  second  is  denied. 
The  conviction  was  affirmed,  the  court  saying; 

It  is  undoubtedly  true,  as  more  than  once  declared  by  this  court, 
that  the  general  right  to  contract  in  relation  to  one’s  business  is  part 
of  the  liberty  of  the  individual,  protected  by  the  fourteenth  amendment 
to  the  federal  constitution ; yet  it  is  equally  well  settled  that  this  liberty 
is  not  absolute  and  extending  to  all  contracts,  and  that  a state  may, 
without  conflicting  with  the  provisions  of  the  fourteenth  amendment, 
restrict  in  many  respects  the  individual’s  power  of  contract. 

With  regard  to  women,  the  opinion  continued : 

Her  physical  structure  and  a proper  discharge  of  her  maternal 
functions — having  in  view  not  merely  her  own  health,  but  the  well- 
being of  the  race — justify  legislation  to  protect  her  from  the  greed  as 
well  as  the  passion  of  man. 

Several  different  state  opinions  were  cited  in  support  of  the  opinion 
so  rendered.  A contrary  decision  cited  stood  alone,  as  its  character 
deserved — the  Ritchie  case.  In  justice  to  the  men  who  gave  this  opin- 


92  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

ion,  however,  it  should  be  said  that  Justice  Brewer  might  have  cited 
somewhat  similar  decisions  made  in  a few  other  states. 


XV.  THE  COMMENDABLE  RITCHIE  OPINION. 

But  a change  came  in  Illinois.  It  came  April  21,  1910.  At  that 
time  the  supreme  court  of  the  state  filed  an  opinion  in  Ritchie  & Co. 
V.  Wayman,  244  III.,  509;  and,  to  the  credit  of  that  court  and  fortunate 
for  the  good  name  of  Illinois,  -the  holding  in  that  case  still  stands  good. 
In  June,  1909,  the  general  assembly  enacted: 

That  no  female  shall  be  employed  in  any  mechanical  establishment 
or  factory  or  laundry  in  this  state,  more  than  ten  hours  during  any 
one  day.  The  hours  of  work  may  be  so  arranged  as  to  permit  the  em- 
ployment of  females  at  any  time  so  that  they  shall  not  work  more  than 
ten  hours  during  the  twenty-four  hours  of  any  day. 

The  statute  was  penal,  and  the  state  department  of  factory  inspec- 
tion was  charged  with  the  duty  of  enforcing  its  provisions  and  pros- 
ecuting all  violations  of  it.  This  statute,  as  is  shown  hereinbefore, 
was  amended  and  amplified  in  1911,  and  now  appears  in  such  amended 
form  in  sections  121-123,  chapter  48  of  the  Revised  Statutes. 

Ritchie  & Co.,  a corporation,  was  engaged  in  Chicago  in  the  manu- 
facture of  paper  boxes,  paper  box  machinery,  etc.,  and  had  in  its  em- 
ploy seven  hundred  fifty  women  and  girls.  The  company  and  two  of 
its  women  employes  joined  in  a chancery  bill  praying  that  John  E.  V. 
Wayman,  state’s  attorney  for  Cook  county,  and  Edgar  T.  Davies, 
chief  state  factory  inspector,  be  enjoined  from  enforcing  against 
Ritchie  & Co.,  the  statute  in  question. 

The  two  women  conscripted  by  the  company  to  pose  as  co-com- 
plainants were  made  to  represent  that  they  had  been  employed  in  the 
factory  for  many  years.  The  use  of  their  names  in  the  suit  was  both 
pathetic  and  tragic.  It  cannot  be  believed  that  they  spoke  from  their 
hearts  when  they  prayed  that  the  seven  hundred  fifty  others  of  their 
sex  in  the  Ritchie  factory,  and  every  other  woman  and  girl  in  Illinois 
coming  within  the  provisions  of  the  act,  might  be  permitted  to  work 
more  than  ten  hours  a day. 

There  was  a precedent,  however,  for  this  involuntary  beseechment 
- — a beseechment  made  at  the  behest  of  the  officers  of  the  employing 
company  in  a desperate  effort  to  keep  that  precedent  alive.  The  su- 
preme court  had  virtually  said  in  the  first  Ritchie  case  that  it  is  a cruel 
wrong  to  deny  to  woman  the  right  to  work  in  as  many  hours  of  the 
twenty-four  as  she  may  elect.  The  court’s  apparent  theory  was  that 
the  statute  was  infinitely  more  objectionable  to  women  employes  than 
to  their  employers — that  the  latter  might  thrive  but  the  former  suffer 
under  its  operation. 

Contemporaneous  with  the  appeal  of  the  second  Ritchie  case  to 
the  supreme  court,  was  a writ  of  error  in  People  v.  B owes-Allegretti 
Co.  (244  111.,  557),  a case  in  which  the  defendant  had  been  convicted 
of  a violation  of  the  same  statute.  By  agreement,  the  two  cases  were 
argued  together,  the  written  opinion  in  the  first  case  to  serve  both 
cases.  The  circuit  judge  had  granted  an  injunction  in  the  first  case, 
evidently  believing  (and  so,  indeed,  seemed  to  be  the  fact,)  that  under 


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93 


the  first  Ritchie  case  the  defendants  in  the  chancery  suit  did  not  have 
a leg  to  stand  on. 

It  was  alleged  in  the  bill  that  during  the  rush  season  it  was  neces- 
sary that  its  women  employes  should  work  more  than  ten  hours 
a day  in  order  to  enable  it  to  fill  its  orders  and  comply  with  its 
contracts ; that  the  factory  was  situated  in  a well  lighted,  heated  and 
ventilated  building  and  that  the  conditions  surrounding  its  employes 
while  at  work  were  sanitary  and  healthful ; that  it  had  not  complied 
with  the  provisions  of  the  statute  indicated ; and  that  the  defendants 
had  instituted  proceedings  to  punish  for  such  violation.  The  act  was 
averred  to  be  unconstitutional  and  void. 

In  the  supreme  court  it  was  argued  by  the  Ritchie  and  Bowes- 
Allegretti  attorneys  that  in  at  least  eight  particulars  the  act  was  un- 
constitutional ; that  it  was  not  sustainable  as  a police  regulation ; that, 
in  short,  it  was  an  abomination;- — and,  of  course,  the  former  Ritchie 
case  was  confidently  relied  upon  as  sustaining  all  of  these  contentions. 

PUBLIC  SENTIMENT  AROUSED. 

Fifteen  years,  however,  had  come  and  gone  since  the  publication 
of  that  opinion.  Public  sentiment,  asleep  in  1895  and  but  half-awake 
in  1903  and  1905,  had  shaken  off  its  drowsiness.  A few  popvdar  maga- 
zines and  newspapers,  unsubsidized,  and  their  teachings  never  influ- 
enced either  by  the  patronage  or  menace  of  the  interests  that  dispense 
rich  advertising,  had  taken  up  the  subject  in  dead  earnest,  and  with 
the  result  that  American  commoners  generally  demanded  of  judges 
more  common  sense  and  more  justice  in  the  construction  of  labor 
statutes  than  were  present  in  the  Ritchie  decision  of  1895. 

Any  court’s  absolute  approval  in  1910  of  the  Ritchie  opinion  would 
in  certain  circles,  at  least,  have  been  as  unpopular  as  was  the  Dredd 
Scott  decision  in  anti-slavery  sections  and  anti-slavery  homes.  Be- 
sides, the  personnel  of  the  supreme  court  was  not  the  same  as  in  1895 ; 
and  Mr.  Louis  D.  Brandeis  had  enlisted  to  aid  counsel  in  their  fight 
to  sustain  the  act’s  constitutionality. 

The  court  held : 

It  was  conceded  upon  the  oral  argument  by  appellants,  that  if  the 
statute  now  under  consideration  had  been  passed  with  a view  to  limit 
the  employment  of  vien  in  mechanical  establishments,  factories  or 
laundries  to  ten  hours  during  any  one  day  it  would  be  an  arbitrary 
interference  with  the  right  of  men  to  contract  for  their  labor  and 
unconstitutional  and  void.  If,  therefore,  such  an  enactment  would  be 
void  as  to  men,  does  it  necessarily  follow  that  such  enactment  must 
be  held  invalid  when  by  its  express  language  the  enactment  is  limited 
to  women,  as  is  the  statute  now  under  consideration? 

This  court  has  recently  held  that  the  disposition  of  property  may 
be  limited  or  regulated  when  the  public  interest  requires  that  its  dis- 
position should  be  limited  or  regulated.  If,  therefore,  the  public  interest 
requires  that  the  time  which  women  shall  be  permitted  to  work  in  any 
mechanical  establishment  or  factory  or  laundry  should  be  limited  to 
ten  hours  in  anv  one  day,  we  are  unable  to  see  why  this  statute  is 
not  constitutional. 

The  right  of  the  individual  to  contract  with  referer!''e  to  labor 
is  held  inviolable  under  the  constitution  on  the  ground  that  the  privilege 
of  contracting  with  reference  to  labor  is  a property  right  within  the 
purview  of  the  constitution.  There  inhere  in  the  state,  however,  certain 


94 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


sovereign  powers,  among  which  powers  is  that  characterized  as  the 
police  power,  which,  when  broadly  stated,  is  that  power  of  the  state 
which  relates  to  the  conservation  of  health,  morals  and  general  welfare 
of  the  public,  and  the  property  rights  of  the  citizen  are  always  held 
and  enjoyed  subject  to  the  reasonable  exercise  of  the  police  power 
by  the  state.  If  this  statute  can  be  sustained,  it  must  be  sustained,  we 
think,  as  an  exercise  of  the  police  power.  * * * The  police  power 

is  said  to  be  an  attribute  of  sovereignty  and  to  exist  without  any  reserva- 
tion in  the  constitution,  and  to  be  founded  upon  the  duty  of  the  state 
to  protect  its  citizens  and  to  provide  for  the  safety  and  good  order  of 
society. 

In  * * *,  an  ordinance  prohibiting  persons  from  keeping  open 

their  places  of  business  in  a city  or  village  for  the  purpose  of  vending 
goods,  wares  and  merchandise  on  Sunday  was  sustained  as  a proper 
exercise  of  the  police  power.  * * * The  police  power  of  the  state 

is  that  inherent  or  plenary  power  which  enables  the  state  to  prohibit 
all  things  hurtful  to  the  comfort,  safety  and  welfare  of  society,  and 
may  be  termed  “the  law  of  overruling  necessity.”  * * * Anything 

which  is  hurtful  to  the  public  interest  is  subject  to  the  police  power  and 
may  be  restrained  or  prohibited  in  the  exercise  of  that  power.  ♦ ♦ * 
All  rights,  whether  tenable  or  untenable,  are  held  subject  to  this  police 
power.  * * * 

From  the  examples  above  referred  to,  found  in  adjudicated  cases, 
it  will  be  seen  that  the  police  power  is  a very  broad  power,  and  may 
be  applied  to  the  regulation  of  every  property  right  so  far  as  it  may 
be  reasonably  necessary  for  the  state  to  exercise  such  pow'er  to  guard 
the  health,  morals  and  general  welfare  of  the  public. 

WHAT  MEN  KNOW  AS  MEN  THEY  KNOW  AS  JUDGES. 

It  is  known  to  all  men  (and  w'hat  we  know  as  men  we  cannot  pro- 
fess to  be  ignorant  of  as  judges)  that  w'oman’s  physical  structure  and  the 
performance  of  maternal  functions  place  her  at  a great  disadvantage  in 
the  battle  of  life;  while  a man  can  work  standing  upon  his  feet  for  more 
than  ten  hours  a day,  day  after  day,  without  injury  to  himself,  a woman, 
especially  when  the  burdens  of  motherhood  are  upon  her,  cannot;  * * ♦ 
and  that  to  require  a woman  to  stand  upon  her  feet  for  more  than  ten 
hours  in  any  one  day  and  perform  severe  manual  labor  w'hile  thus  stand- 
ing, day  after  day,  has  the  effect  to  impair  her  health,  and  that  as  weakly 
and  sickly  women  cannot  be  the  mothers  of  vigorous  children,  it  is  of  the 
greatest  importance  to  the  public  that  the  state  take  such  measures  as 
may  be  necessary  to  protect  its  women  from  the  consequences  induced 
by  long,  continuous  manual  labor  in  those  occupations  which  tend  to 
break  them  down  physically. 

It  would  therefore  seem  obvious  that  legislation  which  limits  the  num- 
ber of  hours  which  women  shall  be  permitted  to  work  to  ten  hours  in 
a single  day  in  such  employments  as  are  carried  on  in  mechanical  estab- 
lishments, factories  and  laundries  would  tend  to  preserve  the  health  of 
women  and  insure  the  production  of  vigorous  offspring  by  them  and 
would  conduce  to  the  health,  morals  and  general  welfare  of  the  public, 
and  that  such  legislation  would  fall  clearly  within  the  police  power  of  the 
state. 

Legislation  limiting  the  number  of  hours  which  w'omen  shall  work 
in  establishments  similar  to  those  enumerated  in  the  statute  now  under 
consideration  to  a period  of  not  more  than  ten  hours  in  any  one  day 
has  been  sustained  in  Muller  v.  Oregon,  208  U.  S.,  412;  State  v.  Muller, 
48  Ore.,  252;  Wenman  v.  State,  38  L.  R.  A.  (Neh.)  805;  Commonwealth 
V.  Hamilton,  120  Mass.,  383,  and  Washington  v.  Buchanan,  59  L.  R.  A. 
(Wash.),  342.  We  are  of  the  opinion  the  statute  limiting  the  time  to  ten 
hours  in  any  one  day  in  which  a female  shall  work  in  any  mechanical 
establishment  or  factory  or  laundry  is  a legitimate  exercise  of  the  police 
power  of  the  state. 


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95 


NOT  SPECIAL  LEGISLATION. 

With  respect  to  the  contention  that  the  act  was  special  legislation 
in  that  it  singled  out  certain  businesses,  but  permitted  women  in  other 
establishments  to  work  more  than  ten  hours  a day,  the  court  held  that 
in  the  latter  class,  such  as  mercantile  houses,  hotels,  restaurants,  etc., 
machinery  is  not  employed,  and  that  therefore  “the  line  of  demarkation 
between  the  establishments  to  which  the  ten-hour  limit  applies  and 
those  to  which  it  does  not  apply  is  clearly  defined.”  In  this  connection, 
the  court  remarked  that  women  employed  where  machinery  is  used, 
and  who  are  compelled  to  work  at  a pace  set  by  fellow  employes  who 
work  with  machinery,  are,  when  at  work,  “under  a pressure  and  spur 
which  is  much  more  likely  to  drive  them  to  over-exertion  when  ex- 
hausted by  long  continued  effort  and  thereby  to  impair  their  health, 
than  are  their  more  favored  sisters  likely  to  be  driven  who  are  engaged 
in  an  employment  which  is  not  forced  at  all  times  to  the  limit  of  pro- 
duction by  the  agencies  of  steam,  electricity  or  other  motor  powers 
when  applied  to  machinery.” 

And  how  was  the  first  Ritchie  case  disposed  of?  Was  its  reason- 
ing expressly  repudiated?  Not  at  all.  The  judges  or  justices  of  1910 
were  extremely  nice  in  their  treatment  of  the  opinion  of  the  men  who 
had  served  in  that  capacity  in  1895.  They  “let  them  down  easy.”  The 
difference  between  the  titles  of  the  two  acts  was  found  to  be  so  extrava- 
: gantly  faint  that  the  modern  judges  were  constrained  to  say  that  such 
“difference  between  the  acts  may  not  be  so  material  but  that  if  this 
! were  the  only  difference  it  might  be  difficult  to  differentiate  the  Ritchie 
, case  satisfactorily  from  the  case  at  bar.”  Continuing,  the  court  said : 
j The  act  of  1893  provides  for  an  eight  hour  day  while  the  act  of  1909  pro- 

i vides  for  a ten  hour  day.  * * * [(-  jjg  if  f^g  limitation  upon  the 

■ number  of  hours  * * * had  been  fixed  at  ten  hours  instead  of  eight 

hours  the  court  would  have  held  the  act  unconstitutional  as  an  unreasonable 
exercise  of  the  police  power  of  the  state  or  that  the  act  would  have  been  held 
* obnoxious  to  the  constitution  as  special  or  class  legislation? 

I 

I A VEILED  SUGGESTION. 

We  do  not  think  it  can  so  be  said,  as  there  is  throughout  the  opinion 
! a veiled  suggestion  which  indicates  that  it  was  the  opinion  of  the  court  that 
the  limitation  of  the  right  to  work  longer  than  eight  hours  was  an  unreason- 
able limitation  upon  the  right  to  contract,  while  the  right  to  contract  for  a 
■I  longer  day,  at  least  under  some  circumstances,  might  be  a valid  limitation 

: upon  the  right  of  contract.  * * * \yg  therefore  repeat  what  we  have 

j once  said,  that  it  is  not  at  all  clear  that  the  court,  in  rendering  the  opinion  in 

the  Ritchie  case,  where  an  eight  hour  day  was  held  to  be  unconstitutional, 
was  of  the  opinion  a statute  fixing  a ten  hour  day  in  which  women  might 
work  would  be  unconstitutional. 

The  opinion  concluded  by  holding  the  act  of  1909  “constitutional 
in  all  of  its  particulars  and  as  an  entirety ;”  the  decree  of  the  circuit 
court  was  reversed;  and  in  the  Bowes-Allegretti  case  the  conviction 
was  sustained  and  the  lower  court  ordered  to  proceed  with  sentence. 

“It  is  not  at  all  clear”  to  many  persons  that  the  supreme  court 
^ as  manned  in  1895  would  have  upheld  a ten-hour  statute;  more  likely, 
, if  words  are  to  be  given  their  ordinary  meaning,  those  gentlemen  would 
i have  declared  unconstitutional  even  a twelve-hour  limitation;  and  it  is 
r to  be  hoped  that  none  will  harbor  the  belief  that  in  the  second  Ritchie 
I opinion  there  is  a “veiled  suggestion”  that  notwithstanding  the  ten- 


96  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

hour  law  women  may  be  forced  by  their  employers  to  work  in  factories 
and  laundries  eleven  or  twelve  hours  the  day  if  seats  be  furnished 
them ; for  certain  it  is  as  that  1916  will  be  a leap  year,  if  some  individ- 
uals and  concerns  should  entertain  that  notion  and  learn  way  whereby 
as  much  (or  more)  work  of  such  character  could  be  done  while  seated 
as  while  standing,  the  supreme  court  of  Illinois  will  be  called  upon  to 
write  another  opinion  touching  the  ten-hour  law  of  1909. 

XVI.  WAS  OREGON  CASE  A PRECEDENT? 

What  Influence  Did  the  Opinion  of  the  Federal  Court,  in  the 
Oregon  Case,  Have  Upon  the  Judges  Who  Rendered 
the  Decision  in  the  Second  Ritchie  Case? 

Respect  Entertained  for  United  States  Supreme  Court. 

Ever  since  its  organization  the  supreme  court  of  the  United  States 
has  had  distinguished  place  among  the  world’s  last  courts  of  resort. 
At  no  time  have  all  of  its  members  transcended  all  of  their  countr}"- 
men  in  legal  lore ; instances  are  known  in  which  appointments  to  the 
court  have  proceeded  from  knowledge  as  to  unalterable  views  enter- 
tained by  the  appointees  respecting  questions  pending  before  or  likely 
to  be  submitted  to  that  tribunal ; and  occasionally  a member  may  un- 
wittingly have  permitted  his  prejudices  to  temper  mildly  his  judicial 
finding;  but  from  the  beginning  every  member  has  been  of  excellent 
moral  fibre  and  has  had  store  of  accomplishments  harmonizing  with 
his  exalted  office.  Several,  too,  in  extent  of  learning  and  in  intellectual 
strength,  have  towered  their  American  contemporaries  at  bench  and 
bar,  and  not  been  surpassed  in  these  regards  by  like  coevals  elsewhere ; 
and  of  many  such  members  it  may  unexaggeratingly  be  said  as  Web- 
ster said  of  the  first  chief  justice  of  that  court:  “When  the  spotless 
ermine  of  the  judicial  robe  fell  on  John  Jay,  it  touched  nothing  less 
spotless  than  itself.” 

The  respect  entertained  for  this  federal  court  proceeds  from  belief 
in  the  wisdom  and  integrity  of  its  justices  and  is  free  absolutely  from 
the  influences  of  glamour.  In  relation  either  to  its  decisions  or  its 
personnel  no  person  has  ever  said  that  “judicial  independence”  is  a 
fiction,  “the  law  is  no  respecter  of  persons,”  a myth;  that  judges,  like 
monarchs,  are  not  always  unmindful  of  the  people’s  will ; that  neither 
care  to  hold  office  by  a precarious  tenure ; that  when  the  popular  voice 
seems  to  call  imperatively  for  certain  action  the  fear  sometimes  pos- 
sesses judges  that  prompted  the  signature  of  King  John  at  Runny- 
mede. 

No;  such  has  never  been  said  of  the  supreme  court  of  the  United 
States,  nor  of  any  of  its  justices.  Opinions  have  been  rendered  in 
that  court,  both  majority  and  dissenting,  that  have  evoked  criticism; 
one  majority  opinion  sustained  a doctrine  that  was  obnoxious  to  thou- 
sands of  our  people  and  it  was  denounced  accordingly ; but  never,  not 
even  within  the  long  period  when  violent  passion  swayed  because  of 
that  particular  decision,  has  the  integrity  or  courage  of  the  court  been 
impugned,  never  has  the  personal  character  of  any  member  of  it  been 
sullied  or  aspersed. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


97 


Apparently,  too,  the  impression  is  general  that  time  will  bring  no 
curtailment  of  this  court’s  prerogatives,  no  diminution  either  of  the 
confidence  or  the  obedience  so  long  accorded  it.  To  the  contrary,  the 
popular  idea  would  appear  to  be  that  it  is  destined  to  exercise  its  pres- 
ent functions  and  to  command  the  utmost  respect  indefinitely ; and  that 
in  the  words  of  Macaulay  it  “may  still  exist  in  undiminished  vigor 
when  some  traveler  from  New  Zealand  shall,  in  the  midst  of  a vast 
solitude,  take  his  stand  on  a broken  arch  of  London  Bridge  to  sketch 
the  ruins  of  St.  Paul’s.” 

Difference  Between  Opinions  of  State  Supreme  and  United  States 

Supreme  Court. 

After  all,  however,  the  great  respect  entertained  for  the  opinions 
of  the  supreme  court  of  the  United  States,  is  due  principally  to  the 
fact  that  ordinarily  such  opinions  are  well  reasoned.  No  better  opin- 
ions have  ever  been  written  than  many  prepared  by  state  judges,  but 
too  many  of  those  published  in  our  state  reports,  especially  those  of 
recent  years,  are  merely  collections  of  citations,  and  artlessly  arranged 
at  that.  Many  of  the  excerpts  in  these  judicial  messes  are  from 
opinions  in  cases  having  no  similitude  to  those  to  which  the  indis- 
criminate collations  are  supposed  to  relate ; and  many  of  the  “opinions” 
from  which  the  extracts  are  cribbed  being  as  bare  of  reasoning  and 
of  applicability  as  are  the  so-called  opinions  in  which  such  extracts 
are  given  lodgment.  Although  good  and  sound  and  pertinent  reasons 
for  the  decisions  may  be  “as  plenty  as  blackberries,”  too  many  of  the 
men  serving  as  judges  in  the  chief  tribunals  of  our  states,  instead  of 
giving  study  to  idle  cases  and  then  briefly  stating  in  clear  language  the 
reasons  for  or  against  affirmance,  content  themselves  by  clipping  from 
the  briefs  of  the  prevailing  attorneys  all  citations  by  them  relied  upon 
(although  some  of  the  citations  may  be  as  inappropriate  to  the  questions 
involved  as  the  dress  of  an  Eskimo  for  a South  Sea  Islander),  throwing 
the  clippings  together,  and  then  causing  the  hybrid  assemblages  to  be 
filed  and  published  as  “opinions.” 

It  is  significant  that  this  slipshod  style  came  into  vogue  with  the 
advent  of  the  employment  of  judges’  clerks  or  secretaries.  Dictation 
lessens  their  labor,  but  in  a majority  of  cases  the  productions  of  judges 
employing  it  come  far  from  equalling  handmade  opinions.  But  dicta- 
tion or  no  dictation,  pen  or  no  pen,  the  scissored  part  or  parts  of  an 
. opinion  should  be  assembled  properly.  It  is  a matter  of  supreme  in- 
difference to  the  owner  of  a popular  price  automobile  when  or  where 
! the  various  parts  of  his  machine  were  made,  or  in  how  many  different 
1 shops  they  were  produced,  if  they  be  of  suitable  construction  and  be 
properly  assembled  and  put  together.  So  may  it  be  immaterial  whether 
' the  supreme  court  justice  delegated  to  prepare  the  opinion  in  a certain 
; case  employs  his  own  language  or  not  (in  many  instances  the  latter 
! must  be  incomparably  better)  ; but  it  is  not  unreasonable  to  expect  that 
i in  a scissors-made  opinion,  as  well  as  in  any  other  (whether  manufac- 
tured by  judge  or  clerk),  the  statement  of  facts  should  be  true  but  not 
redundant,  the  citations  fit  the  case  under  consideration  and  be  amply 
sufficient  to  cover  clearly  and  comprehensively  all  the  salient  points 
involved,  and  the  arrangement  not  he  a jumble. 


98  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

XVII.— ABOLISH  STATE  INTERMEDIATE  COURTS. 

And  what  a boon  it  would  be  to  litigants  and  to  the  people  generally 
if  all  intermediate  courts  in  the  nation  should  be  abolished  and  every 
one  of  their  written  opinions  and  printed  reports  destroyed ! Many  of 
these  opinions  are  able  and  are  not  surpassed  by  those  of  the  final 
courts,  but  altogether  too  many  of  them  are  weak  and  have  occasioned 
wrongs,  and  are  worthless  as  precedents  to  all  but  those  who  would 
cite  and  otherwise  employ  them  to  inflict  further  wrongs.  Every  ap- 
pealed case  should  go  directly  from  the  court  of  trial  or  hearing  to  the 
supreme  court  (whatever  its  appellation)  of  the  state  or  common- 
wealth. 

The  additional  expense  entailed  by  the  necessitated  increase  of 
supreme  court  judges  would  be  insignificant  as  compared  to  the  waste- 
ful and  abominable  cost,  to  say  nothing  of  annoyances  and  waste  of 
time,  incident  to  the  maintenance  of  these  judicial  cormorants.  A 
system  is  not  only  unjust  but  outrageous  that  compels  litigants  to  take 
a case  from  the  circuit  to  the  appellate  court;  to  return  to  the  circuit 
for  new  trial  in  case  of  reversal ; and  perhaps  to  travel  back  and  forth 
between  these  courts  two  or  three  times  before  reaching  the  supreme 
court,  where  it  may  also  be  reversed,  and  the  parties  left  where  they 
were  at  the  beginning  and  with  reasonable  likelihood  of  faithful 
repetition  of  the  same  experiences  even  to  the  smallest  detail. 

When  it  is  considered  that  every  step  taken  under  this  system 
arbitrarily  calls  for  fees  and  expenses,  all  extravagant  and  many  need- 
less, there  can  be  but  small  wonder  that  many  persons  are  “frozen 
out”  before  what  might  have  been  a victory  had  they  the  means  to 
carry  on  the  fight.  Justice,  in  the  act  creating  these  intermediate 
courts,  is  misnamed. 

XVIII.  STUPID  ADHERENCE  TO  SO-CALLED 
“PRECEDENTS.” 

Another  wrong  of  almost  daily  occurrence  in  our  courts  is  blind 
and  stupid  adherence  to  the  rulings  and  opinions  of  courts  in  analogous 
cases.  A precedent,  according  to  Webster,  is  something  which  comes 
lown  to  us  from  the  past  with  the  sanction  of  usage  and  of  common 
consent.  In  law,  a precedent  is  a judicial  decision  which  serves  as 
an  authority  to  be  followed  by  courts  in  cases  involving  the  same 
questions  as  the  case  in  which  the  precedent  was  established. 

How  firmly  wedded  to  the  world  is  precedent ! Duels  have  been 
fought  solely  because  of  the  tyranny  of  precedent.  Nations  have 
warred,  not  because  armed  conflict  was  unavoidable,  but  because 
precedent  left  no  alternative. 

How  obsequious  and  slavish  to  precedent  have  been  courts  of 
justice  wherever  the  common  law  obtains!  Stare  decisis,  much  as 
may  be  said  in  its  favor,  is  responsible  for  a long  train  of  abuses, 
miseries  and  wrongs.  Decisions  have  been  respected,  not  because 
they  were  right,  but  because  the}^  were  gray  with  age.  For  instance, 
the  damnable  rule  exempting  a master  from  liability  to  a servant  for 
injuries  caused  by  the  negligence  of  a fellow-servant — a rule  sound 
when  first  adopted,  sound  today  in  certain  cases,  but  unsound  and 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


99 


f cruelly  unjust  in  many  instances  where  conditions  exist  that  were 
undreamed  of  when  the  doctrine  was  formulated. 

How  many  times  is  justice  defeated  every  week  throughout  the 
United  States  by  small-bore  judges  who  decline  to  hear  argument, 

1 who  invariably  insist  upon  the  production  of  authorities  or  prece- 
dents ! With  them,  too,  every  decision  counts,  even  though  decided 
contrary  to  principle.  But  these  men  will  not  listen  to  argument. 
With  a “precedent”  (regardless  of  its  uniform)  they  are  happy,  with- 
I out  one  they  are  lost  and  are  apt  to  be  petulant.  No  wonder  that 
they  bring  contempt  upon  themselves,  bring  disfavor  and  disrespect 
to  just  and  able  judges  and  to  the  judicial  system  itself.  Yet  some 
of  thes'e  “jurists”  profess  to  believe  that  their  pay  of  six  or  twelve 
thousand  the  year  is  grossly  inadequate, 
j That  there  should  be  certain  principles  and  rules  invariably  to  be 
I respected  both  by  nations  and  individuals,  that  these  principles  and 
; rules  should  not  be  subject  either  .to  sudden  or  radical  change,  none 
1 will  deny.  One  nation  should  not  be  subject  to  the  whim  or  caprice  of 
j another.  The  rulers  of  every  nation  should  know  definitely  what 
f constitutes  conduct  that  would  justify  another  nation  in  waging  war 
: because  of  that  conduct. 

With  the  citizen,  too,  certain  laws  should  be  as  immutable  as  the 
hills.  But  they  are  not  many  in  number.  Chief  among  them  is  that 
every  citizen  shall  have  as  many  rights  and  privileges  as  any  other 
citizen.  With  the  exception  of  a few  precedents  relating  to  the  rights 
of  persons  and  things,  and  a few  concerning  private  and  public  wrongs, 
all  of  our  law  precedents  might  safely  be  killed — figuratively  drawn 
® and  quartered.  This  should  be  the  fate  of  most  of  our  judge-made 
laws. 

Burn  all  the  appellate  reports  of  Illinois  tomorrow  morning,  abridge 
' the  supreme  court  reports  to  ten  volumes  this  winter,  abolish  the 
1,  appellate  court  system  next  winter — Illinois  would  lose  nothing,  gain 
much. 

, Is  the  precedent  good?  Does  it  stand  for  the  right,  for  justice?  This 
should  always  be  the  test  whether  there  be  but  one  precedent  or  a score 

I or  more  of  the  same  character.  This  relates  to  all  precedents,  whether 
considered  by  legislators,  executives,  judges  or  private  persons.  It  is 
immaterial  whether  the  precedent  be  young  or  old.  Is  it  right  or 
wrong  to  follow  it?  Does  it  fit  existing  conditions?  These  questions, 
rather  than  one  of  age,  should  be  considered.  Nor  should  the  absence 
of  a precedent  ever  deter  legal  action  that  seems  advisable,  necessary 
and  constitutional.  New  cases  frequently  arise,  cases  without  prece- 
dent; and  every  right  has  remedy  for  its  enforcement. 

XIX.  OTHER  COURT  ABUSES. 

Two  other  legal  abuses  should  be  corrected.  It  is  competent  for 
j the  legislature  to  prevent  the  recurrence  of  these  evils  now  present  in 
many  of  the  printed  opinions  of  the  judges  of  the  supreme  and  appel- 
late courts  of  Illinois.  It  has  become  quite  comm.on  practice  for  these 
judges  to  pass  upon  questions  of  fact.  These  questions  should  be 
determined  by  jurors  in  jury  cases  and  by  the  trial  judges  in  non-jury 


100  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

cases.  They  should  not  be  determined  by  men  who  have  neither  seen 
nor  heard  the  witnesses  giving  the  testimony.  The  legislature  in  no 
uncertain  terms  should  prohibit  this  practice.  Even  in  chancery  cases 
the  province  of  reviewing  judges  should  be  confined  in  this  regard  to 
the  location  of  the  preponderance  of  evidence. 

The  second  evil  is  the  failure  of  these  courts  to  pass  specifically 
upon  important  assignments  of  error.  An  attorney,  guided  by  former 
opinions  appearing  in  the  printed  reports  of  these  courts,  advises  his 
client  to  appeal.  According  to  these  opinions,  rulings  of  the  court 
made  upon  the  trial  just  ended  were  erroneous  and  constituted  rever- 
sible error.  The  attorney  makes  assignments  of  error  accordingly. 

What  has  come  to  be  common  practice  with  respect  to  many  of 
these  assignments?  The  higher  court  ignores  them.  Its  opinion  is 
absolutely  silent  respecting  them.  As  a consequence,  the  attorney  loses 
the  confidence  of  his  client. 

It  is  not  to  be  expected  that  every  assignment  of  error  should  be 
touched  upon  in  the  final  opinion.  Our  printed  reports  already  con- 
tain much  that  might  have  been  left  out  with  no  loss.  But  every 
attorney  should  have  the  right,  and  the  legislature  should  give  it  to  him, 
to  have  from  two  to  five  particular  assignments  of  error  specifically 
passed  upon  by  the  appellate  or  supreme  court,  these  particular  assign- 
ments to  be  noted  or  marked  so  as  to  inform  such  court  that  they  are 
to  be  expressly  ruled  upon. 

With  this  rule  in  operation  the  law  laid  down  in  Brown  v.  Brown 
or  Smith  v.  Smith,  the  case  upon  which  the  appealing  attorney  relies, 
will  either  be  affirmed  or  expressly  overruled.  It  will  not  be  permitted 
to  stand  and  to  mislead  any  attorney  in  the  future. 

XX.  THE  ELERDING  CASE. 

As  already  observed,  the  average  American  citizen,  whether  in  or 
out  of  official  harness,  has  a feeling  toward  the  federal  supreme  court 
that  is  akin  to  reverence.  The  decisions  of  that  court  inspire  into 
inferior  federal  courts  and  also  state  courts  courage,  industry,  and 
even  humanity.  Although  not  required  so  to  do  in  many  cases,  a 
state  court  is  far  more  likely  to  respect  an  opinion  of  the  federal 
supreme  court  and  to  follow  its  lead  than  it  is  to  adopt  the  reason- 
ing of  a sister  state’s  court. 

Although  legislative  acts  limiting  hours  of  women’s  labor  had  been 
sustained  by  the  supreme  courts  of  Massachusetts,  Nebraska,  Washing- 
ton and  Oregon  before  the  decision  of  the  supreme  court  of  the 
United  States  in  z'.  Oregon  (208  U.  S.,  412),  and  although  the 

reasoning  of  the  court  in  that  case  is  practically  the  same  as  that  of 
the  supreme  court  of  Oregon  in  the  same  case  (appearing  in  48  Ore., 
252),  each  court  having  adopted  literally  much  of  the  language  em- 
ployed in  the  brief  of  Mr.  Brandeis,  it  is  probable  that  the  opinion 
in  the  second  Ritchie  case  owes  its  existence  far  more  to  the  federal 
than  to  the  four  state  courts  mentioned.  At  any  rate,  it  seems  safe 
to  assume  that  even  though  three  of  these  state  decisions  may  have 
contributed  slightly  to  the  decision  reached  in  the  second  Ritchie  case, 
that  of  Massachusetts  cut  no  figure  because  of  its  express  repudiation 
by  the  judges  who  had  decided  the  first  Ritchie  case. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


101 


And  is  it  not  likely  that  the  really  excellent  and  progressive  opinion 
in  The  People  v.  Elerding  (2^4  III.,  57g),  filed  June  21,  1912,  owes 
some  of  its  features  to  the  federal  court’s  opinion  in  the  Muller  case? 
As  section  121  of  chapter  48  stood  when  the  second  Ritchie  case  was 
decided  by  the  supreme  court  it  applied  only  to  women  and  girls 
employed  in  “any  mercantile  establishment  or  factory  or  laundry.” 

In  1911  it  was  amended,  the  amendment  to  be  in  force  July  1 of 
that  year,  so  as  also  to  include  several  other  lines  of  employment  (see 
the  amended  section  hereinbefore  appearing),  among  them  being  that 
of  service  in  hotels.  The  amendment  did  not  go  unchallenged.  Within 
fourteen  weeks  from  the  time  it  became  effective  its  constitutionality 
was  disputed  by  Mr.  Elerding,  manager  of  a hotel.  He  was  informed 
against  by  the  state’s  attorney,  the  information  containing  three  sep- 
arate counts.  He  pleaded  not  guilty,  was  convicted  by  the  court  with- 
out a jury  (it  was  a test  case  and  there  was  a written  stipulation), 
was  fined  twenty-five  dollars  under  each  count,  and  appealed. 

The  first  count  charged  the  employment  of  A for  a period  of  ten 
and  one-half  hours- — one-half  hour  in  excess  of  the  prescribed  time — 
within  twenty-four  hours.  She  was  a kitchen  maid,  her  hours  were 
from  5 :30  A.  M.  to  2 :30  P.  M.  and  from  5 :30  P.  M.  to  7 :00  P.  M., 
and  her  duties  during  such  hours  were  to  wash  dishes  and  kitchen 
utensils,  pare  potatoes,  and  clean  and  prepare  other  vegetables,  also 
fruits.  She  was  required  to  be  in  readiness  for  work  during  the  ten 
and  one-half  hours,  but  the  time  required  to  do  the  work  never  ex- 
ceeded seven  hours  in  the  aggregate. 

The  second  count  charged  the  employment  of  B for  twelve  hours. 
She  was  housekeeper,  her  hours  were  from  7 :00  A.  M.  to  7 ;00  P.  M., 
and  her  duties  were  solely  supervisory,  no  manual  labor  being  required 
of  her. 

C,  the  employe  named  in  the  third  count,  was  employed  from  7 :00 
A.  M.  to  7 ;00  P.  M.,  but  the  time  devoted  to  actual  work  was  not 
more  than  eight  hours.  Her  duties  were  to  assign  guests  to  rooms, 
receive  payment  of  bills,  keep  accounts,  and  occasionally  take  dictation 
of  letters  in  shorthand  and  typewrite  the  same. 

The  supreme  court’s  opinion,  after  recital  of  the  facts,  opens ; 
“That  under  the  police  powers  of  the  state  the  general  assembly  may 
enact  legislation  to  prohibit  all  things  hurtful  to  the  health,  welfare 
and  safety  of  society,  even  though  the  prohibition  invade  the  right  of 
liberty  or  property  of  the  individual,  is  too  well  settled  to  require  dis- 
cussion or  the  citation  of  authority.  The  question  here  to  be  deter- 
mined is  whether  the  law  limiting  the  hours  females  may  be  employed 
in  hotels  is  a valid  exercise  of  that  power.” 

FIRST  RITCHIE  CASE  IGNORED. 

Then  follows  brief  reference  to  the  first  Ritchie  case,  as  is  proper, 
and  more  extended  mention  of  the  second  Ritchie  case,  also  commend- 
able. The  court,  as  constituted  at  the  time  of  the  handing  down  of 
this  opinion,  had  grafted  into  it  none  of  the  narrow  and  inhumane 
doctrine  of  the  first  Ritchie  case,  evidence  of  the  absence  of  inoculation 
appearing  in  these  excerpts : 


102 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


There  can  be  no  doubt  working  long  hours  day  after  day  under  the 
pressure  usually  attending  the  labor  of  an  employe  who  is  subject  to  the 
control,  direction  and  dismissal  of  the  employer,  has  a tendency  to  weaken 
and  impair  the  health  of  women  that  would  not  attend  shorter  hours  of 
employment.  To  exactly  what  extent  this  may  be  so  of  females  employed 
in  hotels  cannot,  perhaps,  be  definitely  known,  nor  is  it  necessary  that  it 
should  be  in  order  to  sustain  legislation  reasonably  limiting  the  hours  of 
work  therein.  That  such  is,  in  general,  the  effect  of  long  hours  of  work 
in  any  employment  is  sufficient  to  authorize  their  regulation.  * * * 

The  health  and  welfare  of  posterity  are  as  much  objects  of  public 
solicitude  as  those  of  the  present  generation.  If  the  enforcement  of  this 
law  tends  to  preserve  the  health,  strength  and  vigor  of  women  engaged  in 
working  in  hotels,  thereby  conserving  the  vitality  necessary  to  the  proper 
discharge  of  their  maternal  functions,  the  rearing  and  education  of  children 
and  the  maintenance  of  the  home,  its  relation  to  the  public  health,  safetj' 
and  welfare  is  evident.  * * * ' 

When  the  legislative  authority  has  decided  an  exigency  exists  calling 
for  the  exercise  of  the  power  and  has  adopted  an  act  to  meet  the  exigency, 
the  presumption  is  that  it  is  a valid  enactment,  and  courts  will  sustain 
it  unless  it  appears,  beyond  any  reasonable  doubt,  that  it  is  in  violation  of 
some  constitutional  limitation.  In  determining  the  validity  of  legislation 
for  the  purpose  for  which  the  act  under  consideration  was  adopted,  courts 
may  take  into  consideration  that  members  of  the  legislature  come  from 
every  part  of  the  state  and  from  the  various  callings  and  vocations  of  life, 
and  may  be  presumed  to  have  observed  and  become  acquainted  with  exist- 
ing conditions,  the  course  of  business,  the  manner  in  which  it  is  conducted 
and  how  the  public  interest  is  affected  thereby.  These  considerations,  in 
a case  of  doubtful  validity  of  a statute,  are  sufficient  to  turn  the  scales 
in  favor  of  the  validity  of  the  act.  It  is  worthy  of  note  that  twenty-seven 
states  have  enacted  laws  limiting  the  hours  of  employment  of  females 
in  certain  lines,  and  five  states  besides  Illinois  have  enacted  laws  limiting 
the  hours  they  may  be  employed  in  hotels.  Laws  limiting  the  hours 
females  may  be  employed  in  mechanical  industries,  factories  and  laundries 
have  been  sustained  by  other  state  courts  of  last  resort  and  by  the  supreme 
court  of  the  United  States  (citing  the  case  of  Muller  v.  Oregon).  * * * 
There  is  nothing  in  the  record  in  this  case  and  nothing  within  the  legitimate 
domain  of  judicial  knowledge  that  would  justify  us  in  holding  there  is  no 
reasonable  connection  between  the  limitation  and  the  health,  welfare  and 
safety  of  the  public.  {Note:  How  shocking  this  would  have  seemed  to 
the  members  of  the  court  that  rendered  the  decision  in  the  first  Ritchie 
case!)  * * * This  power  (police  power)  is  so  important  and  com- 

prehensive that  its  application  must  be  allowed  to  expand  from  time  to 
time,  to  meet  new  conditions  and  promote  the  general  welfare.  * 

It  is  contended  the  facts  in  the  record  before  us  show  that  the  plaintiff  in 
error’s  female  employes  are  not  overworked ; that  the  character  and  amount 
of  labor  performed  by  them  could  not  injure  their  health,  and  that  the 
facts  in  this  record  show  there  is  no  reasonable  connection  between  the 
limitation  of  the  hours  of  work  and  the  health  of  the  female  emplo3'es 
named  in  the  information.  * * * The  law  is  general  in  its  application, 

embracing  all  hotels,  and  is  valid  as  to  all  or  none.  That  there  may  be 
hotels  where  the  labor  required  of  females  is  so  light  that  more  than  ten 
hours’  employment  would  not  so  tax  their  powers  of  ph3-sical  endurance 
as  to  injuriously  affect  their  health  affords  no  justification  for  holding  the 
law  invalid.  The  wisdom  and  policy  of  such  legislation  are  not  questions 
for  courts  to  determine.  Those  are  questions  for  consideration  by  the 
legislature,  and  unless  that  bodv'  has  transcended  its  constitutional  power 
its  enactments  must  be  sustained.  * * * The  judgment  is  therefore 

affirmed. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


103 


XXI.  REGULATION  OF  HOURS  IN  AMERICAN  STATES. 

The  first  section  of  California’s  declaration  of  rights  reads : 

All  men  are  by  nature  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inalienable 
rights,  among  which  are  those  of  enjoying  and  defending  life  and  liberty; 
acquiring,  possessing,  and  protecting  property;  and  pursuing  and  obtaining 
safety  and  happiness. 

The  holding  in  the  Ritchie  case  that  labor  is  property,  and  that 
the  seller  and  the  buyer  of  it  stand  on  an  equal  footing,  holdings  that 
might  be  considered  ironical  were  it  not  for  the  fact  that  they  were 
acted  upon,  have  not  met  with  favor  in  California ; nor  have  they  had 
much  respect  elsewhere.  Judges  generally  know,  as  everybody  else 
does,  that  in  the  absence  of  an  enforceable  statute  the  one  who  has 
his  or  her  labor  to  sell,  cannot  ordinarily  insist  with  success  upon 
working  but  a certain  number  of  hours  a day  and  getting  a full  day’s 
I pay. 

If  out  of  work,  the  applicant  for  employment  must  either  accede  to 
’ the  buyer’s  demands,  or  look  elsewhere,  and  generally  in  vain,  for 
acceptance  of  his  or  her  offer ; and  if  holding  a situation  and  asking  for 
a reduction  of  hours  but  continuance  of  the  same  pay,  the  petitioner, 
ninety-nine  times  in  a hundred,  will  likely  have  asked  what  the  em- 
; ployer  regards  as  impossible.  Many  such  employers,  naturally  and 
genuinely  good-hearted  and  fairly  disposed  toward  their  employes,  and 
honestly  believing  that  the  present  hours  are  not  unreasonable,  will 
take  the  petition  good-naturedly  and  harbor  no  ill-will  against  the  one 
making  it ; but  too  many  others  will  feel  themselves  wronged  by  the 
i request,  will  believe  or  profess  to  believe  that  the  employe  is  ungrateful 
— a few  even  will  look  upon  such  conduct  as  approaching  a sacrilege 
— and  the  petitioner  must  petition  elsewhere  for  a new  berth. 

In  re  Miller,  162  Cal.,  68’/,  the  following  statute  was  held  to  be 
' constitutional : 

No  female  shall  be  employed  in  any  manufacturing,  mechanical  or  mer- 
i cantile  establishment,  laundry,  hotel,  public  lodging  house,  apartment"  house, 
hospital,  place  of  amusement,  or  restaurant,  or  telegraph  or  telephone  estab- 
lishment or  office,  or  by  any  express  or  transportation  company,  more  than 
eight  hours  during  any  one  day,  or  more  than  forty-eight  hours  in  one  week. 

Besides  Massachusetts,  Oregon  and  California,  many  other  of 
our  sister  states  regulate  the  hours  of  labor  that  may  be  required  of 
women,  the  most  favorable  of  such  regulations  being  in  Connecticut, 
Rhode  Island,  Maine,  New  Hampshire,  New  York,  New  Jersey, 
Pennsylvania,  Maryland,  Virginia,  Wisconsin,  Nebraska,  North  Da- 
kota, Colorado,  Washington,  South  Carolina,  Oklahoma  and  Louisiana. 
Similar  laws  obtain  in  Great  Britain  and  Ireland,  France,  Germany, 
Holland,  Switzerland,  Austria  and  Italy.  The  supreme  courts  of 
Nebraska  and  Washington  have  sustained  the  statutes  in  that  regard. 
In  a railroad  case  in  Pennsylvania  the  supreme  court  held  that  the 
, state  rriay  impose  such  regulations  upon  the  relation  of  master  and 
servant  as  are  conducive  to  the  public  welfare,  health,  comfort,  safety 
and  morals. 

The  general  eight-hour  law  of  Utah  has  been  declared  constitu- 
tional by  the  federal  supreme  court.  The  bills  or  declarations  of 
rights  in  the  constitutions  of  Nebraska,  Pennsylvania  and  Utah  are 
virtually  the  same  as  those  previously  mentioned. 


104  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

With  but  few  exceptions,  the  rule  obtaining  in  states  where  the 
statute  fixes  a maximum  number  of  hours  as  constituting  a day’s  labor 
is  that  an  employe  who  works  in  excess  of  such  time  is  not  entitled  to 
extra  compensation  in  the  absence  of  any  special  agreement  in  regard 
thereto.  It  is  not  a stretch  of  imagination  to  believe  that  much  of 
this  overtime  is  not  volunteered  by  the  employes,  and  that  many  of 
them  put  it  in  because  of  apprehension  of  the  result  of  declination 
or  refusal.  An  eight  or  a ten-hour  labor  law,  like  any  other  stagnant 
law,  is  of  but  little  value  either  to  individual  or  community. 

The  general  rule  appears  to  be  different  when  the  employe  works 
less  than  the  prescribed  time  in  a day.  In  such  case  he  is  generally 
paid  pro  rata,  although  occasionally  in  some  jurisdictions  a jury  may 
determine  whether  the  work  done  in  a day  was  by  the  understanding 
and  implied  agreement  of  the  parties  to  be  reckoned  as  a day’s  work. 

It  may  be  observed,  in  this  connection,  that  the  latter  might  reasonably 
be  the  rule  in  any  jurisdiction  or  any  state  or  country;  and  in  spite  of 
opinions  along  this  line  which  indicate  that  the  judges  writing  them 
really  think  that  they  may  be  stretching  the  law  in  favor  of  the  claim- 
ants, it  may  safely  be  assumed  that  a valid  contract,  whether  concern- 
ing the  sale  and  purchase  of  labor  or  anything  else,  may,  if  established, 
be  recovered  upon  in  any  decent  court.  However  this  may  be,  certain 
it  is  that  where  there  is  no  special  agreement,  the  saying  that  “it  is  a 
poor  rule  that  does  not  work  both  ways”  describes  to  a nicety  the  one 
in  question.  If  the  employe  regularly  works  twelve  hours  a day  in  a 
ten-hour  state  he  never  gets  pay  for  more  than  ten  hours ; if,  occasion-  i 

ally,  he  puts  in  but  nine  and  one-half  hours,  he  need  never  expect  more  i 

than  nine  and  one-half  hours’  pay.  It  has  been  held  in  Illinois  that  in  ' 
the  absence  of  a special  agreement  “the  per  diem  required  by  the  stat- 
ute to  be  paid  for  the  time  actuallv  employed  is  only  one  day  in  each 
twenty-four  hours.”  County  of  Christian  v.  Merrigan,  igi  III.,  484. 

The  Michigan  statute,  however,  works  both  ways — sometimes.  It  j 
provides  that  “in  all  factories,  vmrkshops,  salt  blocks,  sawmills,  logging  I 
and  lumber  camps,  booms,  and  drives,  mines,  or  other  places  used  for 
mechanical,  manufacturing,  or  other  purposes  within  this  state,  where 
men  or  women  are  employed,  ten  hours  a day  shall  constitute  a legal 
day’s  work.”  It  is  also  provided  that  the  statute  shall  not  be  construed  I 
to  apply  to  domestic  or  farm  laborers,  or  other  laborers  who  agree  to  | 
work  more  than  ten  hours  a day.  If,  without  special  agreement  to  do  | 
so  without  extra  pay,  the  employe  works  more  than  ten  hours  a day,  he  i 
is  entitled,  the  supreme  court  holds,  to  pay  for  all  extra  time  at  the  reg- 
ular per  diem  rate. 

The  court  further  holds  that  the  statute  does  not  apply  to  hirings  by 
the  week,  month  or  year.  Naturally,  an  employe  working  less  than  ten 
hours  a day  in  Michigan,  could  not  reasonably  feel  aggrieved  if 
“docked”  for  the  shortage,  provided,  of  course,  that  he  should  always 
be  paid  for  overtime.  It  is  probable,  however,  that  even  in  Michigan 
there  are  not  many  laborers  who  do  not  "agree  to  work  more  than 
ten  hours  a day.”  The  statute  contemplates  and  legalizes  such  agree- 
ments ; and  Michigan  employers  cannot  differ  radically  from  em- 
ployers in  any  other  American  state. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


105 


XXII.  LABOR’S  STRUGGLE  IN  ENGLAND. 

It  has  been  said  that  “no  science,  no  great  truth,  is  ever  permitted 
to  find  favor  without  opposition,  or  credence  without  contest ; that  truth 
IS  passed  through  the  conflict  of  opinion,  as  the  oaks  of  the  forest  are 
nursed  by  the  tempest  and  the  whirlwind,  every  storm  extending  the 
roots  and  adding  vigor  to  the  branches ; and  that  to  oppose  truth  is  to 
challenge  attention,  and  to  denounce  it  is  to  unfold  its  beauty  and  to 
establish  its  power.” 

So  it  has  been  in  the  case  of  justice  to  the  common  laborer,  so  in  the 
case  of  the  one  skilled.  In  every  land  he  has  had  to  struggle  from  the 
beginning  for  the  general  recognition  of  rights,  for  humane  treatment, 
for  a decent  status  in  the  social  order.  Justice  has  always  been  on  his 
side,  but  until  comparatively  recent  years  Injustice,  far  more  powerful 
than  Justice,  rendered  the  latter  powerless  to  afford  the  laborer  the 
rights  and  the  privileges  it  desired  to  bestow,  and  to  which  he  was  fully 
entitled.  Even  Magna  Charta,  so  liberal  in  many  respects,  was  silent 
as  to  labor. 

For  centuries,  whether  freeman  or  slave,  his  hours  of  actual  labor 
in  practically  every  civilized  and  every  half-civilized  country  and  prov- 
ince were  fourteen  to  seventeen  hours  the  day ; and  nowhere,  according 
to  Mr.  J.  E.  Davis,  an  eminent  English  writer,  did  he  fare  worse  than 
in  England.  Mr.  Davis  says : 

On  the  accession  of  Edward  VI.  (1547)  a law  was  passed  by  which  a 
serving  man  wanting  a master,  or  loitering  or  wandering,  and  not  applying 
himself  to  honest  labor,  might  on  conviction  be  marked  with  the  letter  V,  and 
adjudged  to  be  the  slave  for  two  years  of  the  person  buying  him,  giving  him 
only  bread  and  water  or  small  drink,  and  such  refuse  of  meat  as  the  master 
should  think  fit,  and  causing  him  to  work  by  beating,  chaining,  or  otherwise. 

If  he  ran  away  he  might  not  only  be  punished  by  his  master  in  the  same  way, 
but  the  justices,  on  conviction,  were  to  have  him  marked  on  the  forehead  or 
ball  of  the  cheek  with  an  hot  iron  with  the  letter  S,  and  adjudge  him  to  be 
the  master’s  slave  for  life.  If  he  again  ran  away  the  offence  became  felony, 
and  he  was  to  suffer  the  pains  of  death  “as  other  felons  ought  to  do.”  Any 
child  of  a vagabond,  above  the  age  of  five  and  under  fourteen,  might  be 
adjudged  the  servant  or  apprentice  of  any  person  willing  to  take  it  until  the 
age  of  twenty-four  if  a male  and  twenty  if  a female;  if  it  ran  away  slavery 
followed  for  life.  The  master  might  put  a ring  of  iron  about  the  neck,  arm, 
or  leg  of  his  slave  to  prevent  his  running  away,  with  a penalty  on  any  person 
helping  him  to  take  it  off,  and  if  the  slave  resisted  correction  he  was  to  be 
executed  as  a felon.  The  slave  might  be  sold  or  devised  by  will  as  other 
goods  and  chattels.  This  statute  was  repealed  three  years  after,  but  it  re- 
mains on  the  rolls  of  parliament,  and  nothing  can  obliterate  the  fact  and  the 
consequent  disgrace  attaching  for  all  time  to  the  parliament  that  could  pass 
such  a law,  and  to  the  country  that  could  endure  it  for  a day.  This  reintro- 
duction of  slavery  in  England  by  name,  and  in  its  worst  form,  is  memorable, 
and  serves  to  mark-  the  alteration  of  opinion  and  feeling  that  has  since  taken 
place,  much  more  than  any  contrast  between  freedom  of  labor  and  wages 
in  the  sense  of  the  political  economist. 

Early  in  the  reign  of  Elizabeth  (5  Elizabeth,  1562)  the  statute  commonly 
called  “the  Statute  of  Laborers”  repealed  all  former  statutes  relating  to 
laborers  in  husbandry  and  artificers  or  laborers  engaged  in  particular  trades, 
and  consolidated  and  amended  many  former  provisions.  The  statute  draws 
a main  distinction  between  artificers  and  laborers  in  husbandry.  The  former 
may  not  be  hired  for  a less  term  than  a year,  and  any  unemployed  person 
brought  up  in  a craft  or  who  had  practised  it  for  more  than  three  years  was 
bound,  on  pain  of  imprisonment,  to  accept  service  if  required  “by  any  person 
using  the  art  or  mystery  wherein  he  has  been  exercised,”  unless  he  had  a farm 
in  tillage,  an  estate  worth  40  shillings-  a year,  or  goods  to  the  yearly  value  of 
£10.  Similar  provision  was  made  in  respect  of  service  in  husbandry.  Every 


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person  between  the  ages  of  twelve  and  sixty  was  in  like  manner  bound  to 
serve  in  husbandry  unless  possessed  of  property  of  specified  amount,  or  em- 
ployed as  a fisherman  or  mariner,  or  in  mining,  or  in  any  of  the  arts  or 
sciences  previously  mentioned,  or  unless  born  a gentleman,  or  unless  a mem- 
ber of  a university  or  school.  Minute  regulations  were  made  with  reference 
to  the  rights  and  obligations  both  of  master  and  servant.  No  person  retained 
in  husbandry  or  trade  was  to  go  out  of  the  county  or  shire  w-here  he  last 
served,  to  serve  in  any  other,  without  a testimonial.  No  person  leaving  his 
service  could  be  taken  into  another  without  showing  such  testimonial  to  the 
authorities  of  the  place  in  which  he  was  about  to  serve.  If  he  broke  this 
regulation  he  was  to  be  imprisoned  till  he  could  procure  a testimonial,  and 
unless  he  did  so  within  twenty-one  days  he  was  to  be  whipped.  Every  person 
retaining  a servant  without  the  latter  showing  such  testimonial  forfeited  £S. 
Besides  empowering  justices  in  session  to  make  a rate  of  wages,  the  statute 
fixed  with  great  minuteness  the  hours  of  labor.  In  the  time  of  harvest,  jus- 
tices or  constables  or  other  head  officers  might  require  artificers  and  persons 
meet  for  labor  to  serve  by  the  day  in  mowing,  reaping,  shearing,  getting,  or 
turning  of  corn,  grain,  or  hay,  according  to  the  skill  and  quality  of  the  per- 
son, and  upon  refusal  might  put  him  in  the  stocks  for  two  days  and  a night. 
Even  single  women  between  the  ages  of  tw'elve  and  forty  might  be  compelled 
to  serve  in  such  employment  as  the  justices  might  direct,  under  pain  of  im- 
prisonment. 


CRIME  TO  ACCEPT  HIGHER  THAN  PAY  ESTAB- 
LISHED THREE  YEARS  AGO. 

Prior  statutes  were  even  more  severe.  One  passed  in  1349,  after 
reciting  the  “unholy  insistence  of  the  working  classes  for  higher 
wages,”  and  “the  lusts  of  ploughmen  and  such  laborers,”  provided  that 
“every  man  and  woman  of  our  realm  of  England,  of  what  condition  he 
be,  free  or  bond,  able  in  body,  and  within  the  age  of  threescore  years, 
not  living  in  merchandise,  nor  exercising  any  craft,  not  having  of  his 
own  whereof  to  live,  nor  land  about  whose  tillage  he  might  employ 
himself,  nor  serving  any  other,  shall  be  bound  to  serve  any  person  de- 
siring and  demanding  his  services,  at  the  wages  accustomed  to  be  given 
for  service  of  like  nature  in  the  twentieth  year  of  this  reign,”  or  three 
years  before.  No  person  was  to  pay  more  than  the  old  wages,  under 
penalty  of  forfeiting  double  what  he  paid ; and  everj^  artificer  or  work- 
man accepting  higher  than  the  old  pay  was  imprisoned. 

Beggars  and  vagrants,  says  Mr.  Davis,  had  much  to  fear,  as  shown 
by  this  excerpt : 

In  1530  (22  Henry  VIII.),  any  person,  being  whole  and  mighty  in  body 
and  able  to  labor,  found  begging  or  being  vagrant,  and  giving  no  satisfactor>- 
account  how  he  lawfully  obtained  his  living,  might  be  arrested  by  a constable, 
and  a justice  might,  in  his  discretion,  cause  every  such  idle  person  to  be  taken 
to  the  nearest  town  and  there  tied  to  the  end  of  a cart  naked,  and  to  be  beaten 
with  whips  throughout  the  town  “till  his  body  be  bloody  by  reason  of  such 
whipping.”  He  was  then  required  to  take  an  oath  to  return  to  his  home  “and 
put  himself  to  labor  as  a true  man  ought  to  do.”  The  whipping  was  to  be  re- 
peated as  often  as  he  made  default ; but  five  years  later  the  punishment  for 
“rufflers,  sturdy  vagabonds,  and  valiant  beggars”  persisting  in  not  working 
after  a whipping  was  increased  to  having  the  upper  part  of  the  gristle  of  his 
right  ear  clean  cut  off.  If  still  persistent  he  was  to  be  tried,  and  executed 
as  a felon. 


YOUNG  SERVING  MEN,  OLD  BEGGARS. 

Very  interesting  is  Harrison’s  description  of  the  state  of  the  labor- 
ing classes  in  England  in  the  sixteenth  century.  He  divided  the  Eng- 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


107 


lish  people  into  four  classes,  viz. : Gentlemen,  citizens  or  burgesses,  yeo- 
men, and  artificers  and  laborers,  the  fourth  class  being  described  as 
follows : 

The  fourth  and  last  sort  of  people  in  England  are  day  laborers,  poor 
husbandmen,  and  some  retailers  (which  have  no  free  land),  copyholders,  and 
all  artificers,  as  tailors,  shoemakers,  carpenters,  brickmakers,  mksons,  etc. 
As  for  slaves  and  bondmen,  we  have  none ; nay,  such  is  the  privilege  of  our 
country,  by  the  special  grace  of  God  and  bounty  of  our  princes,  that,  if  any 
come  hither  from  other  realms,  so  soon  as  they  set  foot  on  land  they  become 
so  free  of  condition  as  their  masters.  * * ' * This  fourth  and  last  sort  of 
people  have  neither  voice  nor  authority  in  the  commonwealth,  but  are  to  be 
ruled,  and  not  to  rule  others ; yet  they  are  not  altogether  neglected,  for  in 
cities  and  corporate  towns,  for  default  of  yeomen,  they  are  fain  to  make  up 
their  inquests  of  such  manner  of  people,  and  in  villages  they  are  commonly 
made  churchwardens,  sidemen,  ale  conners,  now  and  then  constables,  and 
many  times  enjoy  the  name  of  headboroughs.  Unto  this  sort  also  may  our 
great  swarms  of  idle  serving-men  be  referred,  of  whom  there  runneth  a 
proverb,  Young  serving-men,  old  beggars,  because  service  is  none  heritage. 

* * * This,  furthermore,  among  other  things  I have  to  say  of  our  husband- 
men and  artificers,  that  they  were  never  so  excellent  in  their  trades  as  at  this 
present.  But,  as  the  workmanship  of  the  latter  sort  was  never  more  fine  and 
curious  to  the  eye,  so  was  it  never  less  strong  and  substantial  for  continuance 
and  benefit  to  the  buyers.  Neither  is  there  anything  that  hurteth  the  common 
sort  of  our  artificers  more  than  haste,  and  a barbarous  or  slavish  desire  to 
turn  the  penny,  and  by  ridding  their  work  to  make  speedy  utterance  of  their 
wares;  which  enforceth. them  to  bungle  up  and  despatch  many  things  they 
care  not  how  so  they  be  out  of  their  hands,  whereby  the  buyer  is  often  sore 
defrauded,  and  findeth  to  his  cost  that  haste  maketh  waste,  according  to  the 
proverb.  Oh,  how  many  traders  and  handicrafts  are  now  in  England  where- 
of the  commonwealth  hath  no  need ! How  many  needful  commodities 
have  we  which  are  perfected  with  great  cost,  etc.,  and  yet  may  with  far  more 
ease  and  less  cost  be  provided  from  other  countries  if  we  could  use  the 
means ! I will  not  speak  of  iron,  glass,  and  such  like,  which  spoil  much  wood, 
and  yet  are  brought  from  other  countries  better  cheap  than  we  can  make 
them  here  at  home.  I could  exemplify  also  in  many  others. 

SHORT  DAYS. 

There  was  one  provision  in  the  “Statute  of  Laborers”  (1562),  that 
seemed  a Godsend  to  artificers  and  laborers.  It  reduced  the  hours  of 
labor.  Since  then,  as  everybody  knows,  the  number  of  such  hours  has 
been  materially  reduced  in  England  and  in  all  other  countries,  including 
our  own.  The  ordinary  pay  at  that  period  was  tenpence  a day.  The 
provision  read: 

All  artificers  and  laborers  being  hired  for  wages  by  the  day  or  week 
shall,  betwixt  the  midst  of  the  months  of  March  and  September,  be  and  con- 
tinue at  their  work  at  or  before  five  of  the  clock  in  the  morning,  and  continue 
at  work  and  not  depart  until  betwixt  seven  and  eight  o’clock  at  night  (except 
it  be  in  the  time  of  breakfast,  dinner,  or  drinking),  the  which  time  at  the 
most  shall  not  exceed  above  two  hours  and  a half  in  a day,  that  is  to  say, 
at  every  drinking  one  half  hour,  for  his  dinner  one  hour,  and  for  his  sleep 
when  he  is  allowed  to  sleep,  the  which  is  from  the  midst  of  May  to  the  midst 
of  August,  half  an  hour  at  the  most,  and  at  every  breakfast  one  half  hour ; 
and  all  the  said  artificers  and  laborers  betwixt  the  midst  of  September  and 
the  midst  of  March  shall  be  and  continue  at  their  work  from  the  spring  of 
the  day  in  the  morning  until  the  night  of  the  same  day,  except  it  be  in  time 
afore  appointed  for  breakfast  and  dinner,  upon  pain  to  lose  and  forfeit  one 
penny  for  every  hour’s  absence,  to  be  deducted  and  defaulked  out  of  his 
wages  that  so  offend. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


XXIII.  TEN-HOUR  DAY  LAWS. 


In  General. 

The  Ten  Hours  Movement  was  inaugurated  in  dead  earnest  in 
England  in  1832.  It  was  bitterly  opposed.  Although  debated  in  Par- 
liament for  fifteen  years,  its  advocates  went  to  defeat  year  after  year. 
Their  opponents  cried  that  such  a law  would  paralyze  industry,  ruin 
the  country.  Even  Bright  and  Cobden  fought  the  measure  with  all 
the  energy  and  capability  and  ardor  these  great  leaders  could  muster 
on  any  occasion  of  moment.  Hume,  too,  massive  though  his  intellect 
and  warm  his  heart,  could  discern  nothing  but  disaster  in  the  proposed 
reform.  To  him  it  portended  bankruptcy  to  the  manufacturer,  stan^a- 
tion  to  the  operative. 

The  Ten  Hours  Bill,  however,  finally  prevailed.  The  year  was 
1847.  No  British  manufacturer  was  driven  to  the  wall,  no  British 
operative  suffered.  To  the  contrary,  the  condition  of  each  was  radi- 
cally improved,  and  Great  Britain’s  welfare  correspondingly  promoted. 
Similar  results  were  born  of  like  legislation  in  other  European  coun- 
tries. Massachusetts  fell  into  line  in  1854;  and  six  years  later,  al- 
though the  factory  hours  in  Maine,  New  Hampshire,  Connecticut, 
Rhode  Island  and  New  York  ranged  from  65}i  to  a week,  and 
were  but  60  a week  in  Massachusetts,  both  the  per  capita  production 
and  earnings  of  the  Massachusetts  operatives  exceeded  those  of  the 
operatives  in  any  of  the  five  other  states. 

Equally  favorable  results  have  been  observed  wherever  else  the  ten 
hour  day  has  been  established;  and  there  is  abundant  evidence  that  in 
mines  and  shops  and  employments  where  custom  has  fixed  the  work- 
ing hours  at  eight  the  day,  neither  employer  nor  employe  has  sus- 
tained loss.  In  1898  the  congress  of  the  United  States  appointed  an 
industrial  commission.  The  commission’s  hearings  continued  for 
nearly  four  years.  The  following  extracts  are  taken  from  its  final 
report  (1902)  : 

The  entire  tendency  of  industry  is  in  the  direction  of  an  increased 
exertion.  This  being  true,  there  is  but  one  alternative  if  the  working 
population  is  to  be  protected  in  its  health  and  trade  longevity,  namely, 
a reduction  of  the  hours  of  labor.  * * * ^ reduction  in  hours  has 

never  lessened  the  working  people’s  ability  to  compete  in  the  markets 
of  the  world.  States  with  shorter  workdays  actually  manufacture  their 
product  at  a lower  cost  than  states  with  longer  workdays.  * * * 

In  all  cases  where  reductions  have  been  brought  about  there  have  been 
strenuous  objections  and  alarming  predictions,  but  after  a very  brief 
period  of  trial  these  objections  have  disappeared,  except  where  lack  of 
uniformity  remains  a ground  of  complaint;  and  employer  and  employe, 
with  this  exception,  alike  have  agreed  upon  the  advantages  of  the 
change.  * * * If  it  were  a question  of  reducing  hours  to  limits 
absurdly  low,  nothing  could  be  said  in  favor  of  the  movement;  but 
where — as  is  actuallj-  the  case — the  goal  set  up  by  the  working  people 
is  the  eight-hour  day,  and  there  is  no  proposition  and  no  way  for  a 
five  or  a six-hour,  the  arguments  for  reduction  need  no  qualification 
from  the  standpoint  of  the  workers  and  little  from  that  of  employers. 

JOSEPHINE  GOLDMARK’S  GREAT  WORK. 

A most  valuable  and  interesting  work  was  published  in  1912  under 
the  auspices  of  the  “Russell  Sage  Foundation.”  It  is  a study  in  indus- 
*xy,  is  entitled  “Fatigue  and  Efficiency,”  and  its  author  is  Josephine 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


109 


Goldmark,  secretary  of  the  National  Consumers’  League.  “I  am 
under  great  obligations,”  reads  the  author’s  preface,  “to  Doctor  Fred- 
eric S.  Lee,  Dalton  Professor  of  Physiology  at  Columbia  University, 
for  taking  time,  in  the  midst  of  his  scientihc  activities,  to  read  all  the 
proof  sheets  of  my  text  and  to  give  the  benefit  of  his  criticisms  in  the 
held  of  which  he  is  a master.” 

Doctor  Lee,  whose  fame  is  world-wide,  wrote  the  introduction  to 
the  book,  and  paid  rich  and  deserved  compliment  to  the  author’s 
“knowledge  both  of  physiological  laws  and  of  the  conditions  of  indus- 
trial labor,”  also  to  her  “keen  vision  and  her  capacity  for  critical 
analysis.”  With  regard  to  man’s  endurance  he  wrote : 

Industrialism  has  been  quick  to  accept  the  achievements  of  science 
in  inanimate  things,  but  slow  to  recognize  the  teachings  of  physiology 
with  regard  to  the  man  himself.  Methods  and  machines  have  been 
revolutionized,  but  the  human  element  has  not  yet  been  eliminated. 
The  man  or  woman  or  child  is  still  essential  to  the  method  and  the 
machine,  and  while  the  inanimate  agent  demands  more  and  more  of 
him,  his  fundamental  physiological  powers  are  probably  not  so  very 
different  from  what  they  were  when  he  built  the  pyramids  and  made 
papyrus.  He  may  sharpen  his  attention,  shorten  his  reaction  time, 
and  develop  manual  skill;  scientific  management  may  step  in  and  direct 
his  powers  more  intelligently;  but  sooner  or  later  his  physiological 
limit  is  again  reached  on  the  new  plane.  Try  as  we  will  we  cannot 
get  away  from  the  fact  that  so  long  as  machines  need  men,  physiological 
laws  must  be  reckoned  with  as  a factor  in  industrialism.  * * * This 

remarkable  mechanism  of  ours,  the  human  body,  is  capable  of  meeting 
enormous  demands  upon  itself — it  is  long  resistant  to  abuse.  But  if 
work  is  done,  rest  is  ultimately  imperative.  Work  and  rest  indeed 
are  as  close  co-ordinates  as  are  light  and  darkness.  Without  the  one 
the  other  is  destruction.  Much  remains  to  be  discovered  of  fatigue 
and  rest,  and  especially  as  to  their  relations  in  industrialism,  but  enough 
is  already  known  to  make  clear  that  such  knowledge  ought  to  be 
recognized  in  and  applied  to  the  rational  industrial  procedure  of  the 
future.  There  is  nothing  more  pathetic  than  to  see  an  employer  disregard 
the  laws  of  physiology,  use  his  helper  to  the  breaking  point,  and  then  cast 
him  aside. 

BRIEFS  OF  MR.  BRANDEIS  AND  MISS  GOLDMARK. 

Miss  Goldmark’s  book  is  in  two  parts,  the  second  consisting  of 
557  pages,  and  being  a reproduction  of  the  briefs  prepared  by  Mr. 
Brandeis  and  herself  for  use  in  the  Muller  cases,  also  in  Ritchie  & Co. 
V.  W ay  man  and  People  v.  Elerding.  No  such  briefs  were  ever  before 
submitted  to  a court  of  law.  But  little  attention  was  paid  to  court  de- 
cisions, only  a few  pages  being  devoted  to  them.  The  briefs  were 
entitled  “The  World’s  Experience  upon  which  the  Legislation  Limit- 
ing the  Hours  of  Labor  for  W omen  is  Based.”  They  contained  the 
essence  of  reports  of  commissions  and  of  inspectors  the  world  over, 
of  debates  in  legislatures,  of  opinions  of  eminent  medical  men  and 
economists,  and  all  pertaining  to  “the  tangible  human  elements  in- 
volved— health,  welfare,  and  economic  efficiency.”  It  was  the  presen- 
tation, as  Miss  Goldmark  says,  of  “a  new  kind  of  testimony — man- 
kind’s experience,  physical  and  moral,  with  respect  to  women  in  indus- 
try and  the  duration  of  their  working  hours.” 

This  great  work  was  done  by  Mr.  Brandeis  and  Miss  Goldmark 
without  pay;  and  Mr.  Brandeis  argued  all  such  cases  without  other 
compensation  than  the  good-will  of  those  for  whom  he  labored  and 
the  pleasure  that  his  labors  and  his  victories  afforded  him. 


110  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
NIGHT  WORK  IN  MILLS  SHOULD  BE  PROHIBITED. 

Perhaps  the  strongest  chapters  in  Miss  Goldmark’s  book  proper 
(Part  I)  are  those  which  relate  to  the  employment  of  women  and  chil- 
dren in  factories  and  mills  at  night.  She  advocates  the  prohibition  of 
such  employment,  and  her  argument  is  not  only  exhaustive  and  elo- 
quent, but  is  unanswerable.  “It  is  a startling  fact,”  she  says,  “that 
only  three  American  states  (Massachusetts,  Indiana  and  Nebraska) 
have  prohibited  women’s  employment  at  night — a form  of  work  which 
all  the  Christian  nations  of  Europe  have  striven  to  abolish  by  inter- 
national treaty.” 

With  regard  to  the  regulation  of  the  length  of  working  hours,  she 
says : 

The  length  of  working  hours  has  been  bitterly  contested  by  those  who 
feared  that  any  lessening  of  the  hours  of  labor  meant  a corresponding 
economic  loss.  From  the  first  dawn  of  protective  legislation  in  England 
over  a century  ago  to  the  present  day,  the  rallying  cry  for  the  most  diverse- 
minded  opponents  of  legislation  has  been  the  threatened  ruin  of  industry 
and  manufactures.  Solemn  or  hysterical,  an  honest  conviction,  hypocritical, 
pseudo-scientific,  the  cry  has  been  more  or  less  successfully  invoked  in 
every  country,  at  every  atternpted  advance,  bringing  with  it  all  the  rancors 
and  bitternesses  through  which  the  cause  of  legislation  has  been  dragged. 
Yet  the  unconscious  consensus  of  testimony  from  various  states  and 
countries  on  the  economic  benefits  of  the  short  day,  recorded  in  official  and 
unofficial  documents,  is  in  its  turn  as  impressive  as  we  found  the  unanimity 
of  evidence  on  the  physical  effects  of  the  long  day. 

For  the  most  part,  however,  all  this  body  of  information  is  ignored  and 
allowed  to  fade  into  the  limbo  of  forgotten  things,  in  our  practical  efforts 
at  legislation.  We  must  keep  reiterating  that  the  unsolved  questions  and 
difficulties  are  of  fundamentally  the  same  general  character  today  as  in 
the  past.  Practically  the  world  over,  the  state  of  the  sweated  trades  in 
1912  is  “closely  parallel  to  that  of  the  Lancashire  cotton  mills  in  1802.” 
To  come  nearer  home,  factory  legislation  in  Pennsylvania,  New  York,  and 
other  American  states  has  not  yet  reached  the  stage  of  British  textile 
legislation  of  more  than  sixty  years  ago.  And  most  significant  of  all,  it  is 
still  the  cry  that  industry  will  be  ruined  by  protecting  the  workers,  which 
most  hampers  our  advance. 


PERNICIOUS  INFLUENCE  OF  LOBBIES. 

It  is  the  cotton  lobby  which  throws  its  great  influence  against  the  work- 
ers in  the  cotton  states,  the  glass  lobby  in  the  glass  states,  the  laundrj-men’s 
association  wherever  legislation  for  laundry  workers  is  proposed,  the  retail 
dealers’  association  against  an}-  relief  for  shop  girls.  Individual  emploj'ers, 
it  goes  without  saying,  are  humane  and  enlightened,  but  their  official  organ- 
izations and  representatives  have  won  a sinister  distinction  in  opposing  labor 
legislation.  Such  associations  of  employers  as  those  named  above,  are 
found  officially  in  the  field  at  every  session  of  the  state  legislatures.  It  was, 
for  instance,  the  Illinois  Manufacturers’  Association  which  officially  com- 
batted any  restriction  whatsoever  of  women’s  hours  in  Ilinois,  and,  failing 
to  defeat  the  passage  of  the  ten-hour  law  in  1909,  bent  all  its  energies  to  have 
the  law  annulled  by  the  courts.  It  was  the  laundrjTnen’s  associations  which 
played  the  same  part  in  Oregon  in  1907,  and  even  carried  a case  against  the 
Oregon  ten-hour  law  to  the  United  States  supreme  court.  It  is  the  Retail 
Dry  Goods  Merchants’  Association  of  New  York  City  which  by  various  means 
has  succeeded  in  stifling  all  limitation  of  hours  for  adult  women  employed  in 
department  stores.  It  was  the  official  Manufacturers’  Association  of  Colo- 
rado which  issued  a statement  to  the  legislature  in  1911,  pointing  out  the 
dangers  of  the  proposed  eight-hour  law,  and  denying  its  need  by  recount- 
ing the  contributions  of  Colorado  manufacturers  to  various  charities.  The 
universal  argument  which  has  so  often  crowned  their  official  efforts  with 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


111 


success  is  the  abject  money-makers’  plea,  the  fear  of  loss — “Save  us  lest 
we  perish.” 

As  the  authors  of  the  standard  history  of  factory  legislation  have  said, 
writing  with  what  Mr.  Sidney  Webb  calls  “commendable  restraint,”  as  “his- 
torical students” : 

“In  the  beginning,  the  proposal  to  restrict  children  to  a working  day 
about  30  per  cent  longer  than  strong  men  now  think  good  for  themselves, 
was  greeted  almost  hysterically,  and  the  ruin  of  trade  and  commercial  col- 
lapse of  the  country  were  freely  prophesied  as  the  necessary  result.  Inquiry 
after  inquiry,  commission  after  commission,  have  demonstrated  the  ground- 
lessness of  these  rather  unmanly  terrors,  yet  the  Factory  Code  is  still  the 
barest  minimum  and  scarcely  ever  is  there  a discussion  in  Parliament  on  the 
subject  that  does  not  reveal  that  the  masses  of  information  and  material 
that  exist  for  the  full  economic  justification  of  further  measures  are  prac- 
tically unknown  to  all  but  a select  few  of  our  legislators.” 

XXIV.  WAGES  PAID. 

In  Steel  Works,  Etc. 

The  best  paid  mill  hands  in  America  are  those  employed  in  our 
steel  works  and  rolling’  mills.  The  average  pay  is  $681  a year — $2.25 
a day  for  303  days.  Divide  $681  by  365,  and  the  quotient,  $1.87,  rep- 
resents the  average  daily  income  of  a worker  in  these  establishments. 
Not  much  money,  is  it?  The  next  best  paid  wage  earners  in  the  coun- 
try are  the  steam  railway  employes — $659  a year  being  the  average. 
Including  these  steel  workers  and  railroaders,  the  present  average 
yearly  pay  of  men  wage  earners  in  the  United  States  (boys  excluded) 
is  $513.76 — less  than  $1.70  for  every  working  day,  and  but  $1.41  for 
each  of  the  365  days  in  the  year.  Not  much  money,  is  it?  Especially 
not,  when  $1.70  today  will  do  no  more  than  could  be  done  with  $1.03 
ten  years  ago.  The  cost  of  living  has  increased  59  per  cent,  since 
then,  while  wages  have  been  advanced  but  26  per  cent. 

Can  there  be  any  doubt  of  this — either  that  workers  do  not  receive 
enough  for  their  labor,  or  that  they  are  compelled  to  pay  too  much 
for  what  they  must  buy?  Take,  for  instance,  a family  of  seven — hus- 
band, wife,  four  children,  and  one  grandparent.  The  children  are 
small,  the  grandparent  feeble,  the  wife  has  all  she  can  do  at  home.  The 
husband  is  the  only  wage  earner.  If  he  works  in  a steel  mill  and  gets 
average  pay  he  has  27  cents  a day  for  each  member  of  his  famly — 
but  20  cents  a day  if  he  gets  the  average  pay  of  a wage  earner.  With 
this  he  must  shelter,  clothe,  feed  and  educate — must  also  pay  for  med- 
ical and  surgical  treatment,  and  must  pay  for  the  burial  of  his  dead. 
Is  this  right?  Remember,  too,  that  $681  and  $513.76  represent,  re- 
spectively, average  yearly  wages.  Thousands  of  men — foremen,  skilled 
mechanics,  and  the  like,  receive  from  $2.50  to  $3.50  and  $4  a day. 
How  many  tens  and  how  many  fifties  of  thousands  must  work  for 
much  less  than  the  average  wage?  And  suppose  that  the  bread  winner 
should  have  a siege  of  typhoid  fever,  break  an  arm,  or  lose  a leg ! 

In  Massachusetts. 

A recent  number  of  “The  Public”  contained  an  instructive  article 
by  Mr.  Wm.  E.  McKenna  on  “Manufactures  in  Massachusetts.”  Not- 
withstanding the  proud  boast  of  the  statisticians  of  that  state  that  its 
factory  hands  are  paid  more  per  capita  for  their  labor  than  is  paid 
for  like  work  in  other  New  England  states,  Mr.  McKenna’s  portrayal 


112  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

of  conditions  is  not  flattering  to  employers,  nor  does  it  suggest  that  the 
workers  in  the  mills  of  Massachusetts  fare  any  better  than  persons 
employed  in  shoe  factories  and  cotton  and  woolen  mills  west  of  the 
Alleghenies,  whatever  may  be  true  of  New  England  and  the  Middle 
states. 

He  says: 

“Some  time  when  you  are  in  an  arithmetical  mood  you  might  take 
a lead  pencil  and  a large  sheet  of  paper  and  the  latest  report  of  the 
Massachusetts  Bureau  of  Statistics,  and  do  some  figuring.  The  report 
will  give  you  all  sorts  of  information  about  Massachusetts  manufac- 
turerers  for  the  year  1910,  with  comparisons  for  the  three  preceding 
years.  You  will  find  that  while  conditions  had  improved  in  some  re- 
spects since  1907,  the  panic  year,  they  were  not  ideal  at  last  accounts. 

“The  average  wages  for  1907  for  all  wage  earners  were  about  $515, 
for  1910  about  $527 — an  advance  of  less  than  3 per  cent. 

“Taking  some  of  the  larger  industries  separately,  you  will  find  that 
in  boots  and  shoes  there  was  an  increase  of  less  than  1 per  cent,  in 
leather  goods  about  4 per  cent,  in  paper  and  wood  pulp  4 per  cent,  in 
woolens  practically  no  change,  in  cotton  goods  a slight  decline. 

“Now  if  you  will  turn  to  the  U.  S.  Bureau  of  Labor  report  (Bulle- 
tin 106,  part  1,  page  14)  you  will  find  an  estimated  increase  in  the 
cost  of  food  for  an  average  workingman’s  family  from  1907  to  1910 
of  about  9 per  cent. 

“These  figures  apply  to  all  wage  earners  in  Massachusetts  manu- 
factures, men,  women  and  ‘young  persons  under  18.’  Let  us  do  a 
little  figuring  on  adult  males  only — that  is  to  say,  males  over  18. 

“The  U.  S.  Bureau  of  Labor  estimates  the  cost  of  food  for  an 
average  workingman’s  family  as  $423  in  1910.  What  it  calls  such  a 
family  is  five  and  a decimal  persons.  Let  us  call  it  five,  because,  you 
know,  if  you  have  any  more  than  five  in  the  family  you  will  have  at 
least  six.  If  you  want  to  know  what  $423  a year  means  for  a family 
of  five,  multiply  5 by  365  and  the  result  by  3,  and  you  will  have  the 
number  of  meals  for  a year,  5,475,  assuming  that  they  eat  three  meals 
a day  each,  which,  indeed,  may  be  unnecessary.  Then  $423  will 
mean  something  less  than  eight  cents  a meal.  It  does  not  seem  extrav- 
agant. 

“Now  if  you  look  at  the  Massachusetts  tables  }mu  will  find  that 
about  95,000  of  the  adult  male  wage  earners  out  of  about  420,000 
could  not  pay  for  the  food  for  such  a family.  If  you  figure  rent  for 
this  average  family  at  $10  per  month  and  clothing  at  $10  more  (figures 
which  are  justified  by  some  other  estimates  of  the  Bureau  of  Labor) 
you  will  bring  up  the  expenditure  to  $663,  nearly  $13  a week.  If  3mu 
call  it  $12  a week  and  look  at  your  Massachusetts  table  again,  3"ou 
will  see  that  about  215,000  of  those  420,000  adults,  more  than  half, 
could  not  pay  it.  If  you  add  $10  a month  more  for  expenses  other 
than  food,  rent  and  clothing,  you  will  have  $783  a year,  about  $15  a 
week.  And  then  you  will  find  that  300,000  of  those  420,000  could 
not  afford  family  life  on  that  scale.  We  sometimes  hear  that  the  men 
do  not  stay  in  Massachusetts.  Perhaps  some  of  those  who  are  still 
there  are  trying  to  save  enough  out  of  their  meager  incomes  to  get 
away. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


113 


|i  “The  above  figures  are  based  on  the  supposition  that  the  adult 
I males  are  employed  continuously  during  the  year.  As  a matter  of  fact 

I there  was  lost  time  in  almost  every  line.  The  boots  and  shoes  concerns 
were  operated  on  an  average  of  283  days  out  of  305,  cotton  285  out  of 
305,  woolens  271  out  of  305,  and  so  on.  Just  why  any  were  shut  down 
is  not  explained,  but  we  may  conjecture  that  it  was  not  because  every- 
body was  too  well  supplied  with  boots  and  shoes  and  cotton  and 
woolen  goods. 

“Wages  represented  a larger  percentage  of  the  total  product  in 
I 1910  than  in  1907 ; also  a larger  percentage  of  ‘the  value  added  by 
I manufacture.’  You  get  this  ‘value  added  by  manufacture,  by  subtract- 
ing from  the  total  product  the  value  of  stock  and  materials.  Thus,  in 
1910  the  total  product  was,  in  round  numbers,  $1,465,000,000;  value  of 
stock  and  materials  $863,000,000;  difference  $602,000,000,  of  which 
$304,000,000  was  paid  in  wages.  Would  it  be  unduly  inquisitive  to 
ask  what  became  of  the  other  $298,000,000?  Ten  per  cent  of  the  capi- 
tal (or  capitalization)  would  be  about  $120,000,000,  but  that  would 
leave  a lot  of  money  to  be  accounted  for. 

[ “Let  us  hope  that  some  day  the  progressive  old  Commonwealth  of 
f Massachusetts  will  satisfy  our  curiosity  on  that  point.” 


XXV.  MINIMUM  WAGE. 

The  “Dark  Ages.” 

Time  was  when  a master  might  starve,  torture  or  kill  his  slave  at 
his  own  sweet  will.  He  was  privileged  to  act  as  judge,  jury  and  execu- 
tioner. There  were  no  bothersome  details.  There  was  no  judicial 
inquiry,  no  official  report  to  be  made.  Any  such  requirement,  whether 
made  by  council  or  sovereign,  would  have  been  an  unwarranted  in- 
fringement upon  his  natural  and  inalienable  rights.  It  was  the  right 
of  every  master  to  do  with  his  own  as  he  pleased.  No  color  line  was 
^ drawn.  The  master  had  a conscience.  It  would  be  wrong  to  make 
: distinction  because  of  race  or  complexion.  Whether  white,  black, 
brown  or  yellow,  the  slave  was  entitled  to  no  special  privileges.  No 
master  had  yet  inventoried  a red  “chattel.” 

Conditions  changed.  Kings  and  cabinets,  and  even  commoners,  de- 
manded the  change.  Slave  owners  were  compelled  to  recognize  the 
strange  and  abominable  dectrine,  to  them,  that  every  state  should  have 
i,  voice  with  respect  to  the  welfare  of  all  within  its  borders.  In  every 
l|  civilized  land  where  slavery  existed  it  became  the  duty  of  masters  to 
!'  provide  their  slaves  with  proper  and  sufficient  food,  clothing,  shelter, 
j and  medical  treatment.  In  common  law  countries,  masters,  despite 
I their  protest  that  it  would  be  an  abuse  of  legislative  power,  were  re- 
t quired  to  see  that  their  apprentices  were  properly  and  sufficiently  fed, 
I clothed  and  sheltered,  and  humanely  cared  for  whenever  sick  or  in- 
I jured.  House  servants  were  entitled  to  suitable  and  sufficient  food  and 
comfortable  sleeping  quarters. 

I Eventually,  other  conditions  were  bettered.  The  hours  of  labor 
were  lessened  by  legislative  enactment,  statutes  were  passed  requiring 
of  employers  and  landlords  safety  devices  and  sanitary  improvements. 
I Then  came  spread  of  the  belief  that  man  should  be  punished  for  cruelty 


114  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

to  his  horse  or  his  dog.  Statutes  followed  accordingly.  Ever}-  owner 
or  keeper  was  required  to  see  that  his  domestic  animals  and  fowls 
should  be  properly  cared  for  as  to  food,  water  and  shelter,  and  in  no 
manner  be  cruelly  treated.  Such  is  the  present  law  in  Illinois.  An- 
other of  this  state’s  statutes  provides  that  special  officers,  to  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  governor,  shall  see  that  all  stock  in  certain  stockyards 
and  other  designated  places  shall  be  “properly  fed  and  cared  for’’  at 
all  times. 

Another  change  is  impending.  The  feeling  is  rife  in  this  country 
that  the  pay  of  his  employes  should  not  solely  depend  upon  the  will  or 
the  whim  of  the  employer.  The  belief  is  wide-spread  and  deep-rooted 
that  every  capable  and  faithful  employe  should  have  not  only  a living 
wage  but  a fair  one. 

The  law  aimed  that  the  slave  should  neither  starve  nor  go  hungr}L 
The  law’s  beneficence  did  not  result  in  all  smiles  and  no  scowls  for  the 
apprentice,  but  it  shielded  him  from  kicks,  hunger  and  cold.  Hard 
was  the  lot  of  the  lad  apprenticed  to  harsh  master,  but  he  at  least  had 
a living  independent  of  charity — independent  of  a father’s  earnings  all 
needed  by  others  at  home.  Whether  in  health  or  in  sickness  he  knew 
that  he  would  burden  neither  his  home  nor  the  parish.  None  will  say 
that  these  bondsmen,  whether  full  slave  or  half-free,  did  not  earn  their 
beds  and  enough  to  eat  and  wear.  And  who,  unless  heartless,  would 
ask  for  repeal  of  the  statutes  protecting  dumb  creatures?  Who  would 
destroy  these  measures  intended  to  prevent  return  of  the  cruelties  so 
bitterly  known  by  “Black  Beauty’’  and  “Ginger”? 

Fair  Wage  Demand  Founded  on  Right. 

The  popular  demand  for  a fair  wage  is  founded  upon  right.  Surely 
what  was  right  in  the  case  of  the  slave,  the  apprentice  and  the  domestic 
— what  is  right  in  the  case  of  today’s  horse  and  ox — would  not  be  un- 
just or  unreasonable  in  the  csae  of  the  employe  who  devotes  to  his  or 
her  employer  full  time  and  labor  every  working  day  in  the  year.  The 
man,  woman,  boy  or  girl  who  does  this  earns  his  or  her  full  living — has 
as  much  right  to  an  honest  wage  as  the  employer  has  to  his  profits — 
and  when  in  health  should  need  no  assistance  from  relative,  friend, 
stranger  or  the  poor  fund. 

Gratifying  results  have  sprung  from  the  work  inaugurated  by  this 
Committee.  Its  inquiries  with  respect  to  the  wage  question  were 
searching,  exhaustive  and  unparalleled.  The  committee  did  what  had 
never  been  done  in  any  state  in  the  case  of  women  and  girls  employed 
in  stores — it  held  its  sessions  in  public  and  required  merchant  princes 
to  appear  and  testify  as  to  wages  paid.  That  many  store  employes 
have  been  poorly  paid  has  always  been  known,  but  the  extent  of  this 
wrong  as  brought  out  by  this  testimony  was  a revelation.  The  pro- 
ceedings challenged  the  attention  and  aroused  the  interest  of  people 
generally  in  every  state  in  the  Union.  The  press  gave  the  testimony 
to  the  entire  country.  General  agitation  followed,  and  many  employ- 
ers upon  reading  the  startling  developments,  instituted  inquiries  of  their 
own  which  resulted  in  the  voluntary  increase  of  pay.  But  for  this 
Committee’s  earnest  and  thorough  work  thousands  and  thousands  of 
girls  and  women  and  thousands  of  boys  and  men  in  such  employs 
would  still  be  working  for  grossly  inadequate  pay. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


115 


Thousands  of  girls  and  young  women  in  every  great  city  in  the 
United  States  are  paid  but  from  three  to  seven  dollars  a week.  They 
work  from  eight  to  ten  hours  a day.  Their  work  is  well  done.  One 
need  not  go  beyond  the  figures  themselves  to  know  whether  these  girls 
and  women  have  a living  wage.  Room  rent  alone  is  three  dollars  a 
week — carfare  at  least  sixty  cents.  Every  one  who  works  ought  to 
have  two  or  three  meals  a day,  and  an  occasional  change  of  clothing. 

A dime  once  in  a while  for  Sunday  or  evening  carfare;  a few 
pennies  for  church ; a few  for  newspapers ; a little  change  for  brushes, 
pastes  and  powders ; a little  more  for  an  apple  or  two  or  a glass  of  soda 
water  once  a week;  a simple  present  now  and  then  for  parent,  sister 
or  brother;  a few  quarters  a year  to  help  along  subscriptions  for  un- 
fortunate friends,  even  strangers — these,  too,  are  items  that  may  prop- 
erly be  considered  in  estimating  what  constitutes  a living  wage.  And 
what  of  books,  magazines,  lectures,  amusements,  night  schools  per- 
haps, and  the  probable  calls  for  assistance  from  parents  or  other  rela- 
tives? And  what  of  the  seventy-five  cents  or  the  dollar  a week  that 
she  is  anxious  to  set  aside  for  use  in  case  of  unemployment,  sickness 
or  accident — or  for  procurement  of  modest  burial  in  the  event  of  her 
death  ? 

Suppose  that  two  or  three  of  her  family  should  sicken,  and  one  or 
two  die ! 

Payment  of  Fair  Wage  Must  Be  Compelled. 

Four  of  every  five  employers  will  never  give  their  people  increase 
of  pay  without  compulsion.  Five  of  the  great  stores  in  Chicago  em- 
ploy in  all  13,610  women  and  girls — the  two  leaders  employing  4,732 
and  4,222,  respectively.  The  average  pay  is  but  $9.20  in  the  first  store, 
$10.67  in  the  second.  More  than  7,000  in  the  five  stores  receive  less 
than  a living  wage,  ^he  net  profits  for  1912  of  one  of  these  concerns 
was  seven  million  dollars.  One  of  the  smaller  establishments  made  a 
net  profit  that  year  of  $2,370,000.  The  wages  of  1,013  of  its  employes 
run  from  three  to  seven  dollars  a week.  Had  each  of  these  girls  and 
women  been  paid  eight  dollars  a week  the  profits  would  have  been  re- 
spectable— $2,270,472. 

Four  of  these  stores’  managers  testified  before  the  Committee  that 
for  themselves  they  had  no  fear  of  a minimum  wage  of  even  twelve 
dollars  a week — that  two  dollars  a day  might  be  paid  “without  ma- 
terially affecting  our  profits.”  It  is  the  smaller  merchants  for  whom 
these  gentlemen  are  solicitous.  One  manager  declared  that  five  cents 
will  buy  a breakfast  good  enough  for  any  working  girl — a cup  of 
coffee  and  three  little  rolls.  Another  manager,  when  asked  whether 
he  could  live  on  eight  dollars  a week,  answered : “I  have  never 
tried  it.” 

Years  ago  employers  cried  unconstitutionality,  confiscation,  pater- 
nalism, and  class  legislation — cries  no  more  heeded  than  those  of  the 
slaveholder  in  time’s  misty  past.  The  “obnoxious”  laws  were  made. 
Men  no  longer  were  compelled  to  work  sixteen  or  fourteen  hours  a 
day  or  go  hungry.  These  cries  will  be  heard  again.  Men  may  threaten 
to  close  shop.  It  will  do  them  no  good.  The  fair-wage  law  will  come 
because  it  is  right.  It  will  stay.  The  world  will  move.  The  soil  will 


116  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

be  tilled  and  cropped — goods  will  be  made  and  sold.  There  will  be  less 
“philanthropy,”  perhaps,  but  more  justice. 

At  the  hearings  held  by  this  Committee  the  consensus  of  testimony 
appeared  to  be,  that  of  employers  as  well  as  employes,  that  a woman 
or  girl  supporting  herself  should  in  any  large  city  have  at  least  $8  a 
week,  the  same  to  be  applied  as  follows : 


Room  rent  $3.00 

Breakfasts  40 

Lunches  90 

Dinners  1.40 

Care  fares  60 

Clothing,  etc 1.70 


Total  $8.00 


Does  any  reasonable  person  believe  that  three  dollars  is  too  great 
an  allowance  for  room  rent?  It  does  seem  too  much,  but  start  out  in 
search  of  a decent  room  in  a respectable  neighborhood,  and  the 
searcher  will  discover  before  the  day  is  over  that  nothing  better  can 
be  done.  Forty  cents  for  seven  breakfasts,  ninety  cents  for  seven 
lunches,  twenty  cents  for  a dinner,  ten  cents  for  car  fare  six  days  in 
the  week — not  any  for  Sunday — are  these  figures  unreasonable?  And 
think  of  $88.40  for  clothing,  and  washing,  and  medicines,  and  all  inci- 
dentals for  an  entire  year ! Do  these  workers  receive  enough  for  their 
labor?  Are  they  compelled  to  pay  too  much  for  what  they  must  buy? 

What  About  Funeral  Expenses? 

And  can  any  reasonable  person  believe  it  unreasonable  that  an  in- 
dustrious, temperate  and  economical  wage  earner  should  have  a wage 
that  would  enable  him  or  her  to  pay  for  funerals  in  the  family,  to  lay 
by  sufficient  to  defray  the  cost  of  his  or  her  own  burial?  In  this  con- 
nection, a few  words  regarding  the  potter’s  field,  for  they  are  appro- 
priate : 

The  body  of  Ida  G.  Leegson,  who  was  murdered  recently  in  Chi- 
cago, was  buried  at  the  expense  of  her  former  classmates.  Her  only 
near  relative,  a sister,  lives  in  California  and  is  poor.  But  for  the 
classmates  the  body  would  have  been  buried  in  the  potter’s  field.  An- 
other Chicagoan,  John  Kalasa,  was  killed  about  the  same  time  as  Miss 
Leegson.  His  mother,  who  is  a widow  and  lives  in  Detroit,  was  asked 
by  telegraph  what  disposition  should  be  made  of  the  body.  “As  you 
will,”  was  the  mother’s  reply.  “I  have  no  money  and  cannot  pay  for  a 
funeral.  My  boy  was  killed  in  Chicago  and  Chicago  must  bury  him.” 

The  potter’s  field  should  go.  It  is  shameful  that  it  has  existence. 
A potter’s  field  was  intended  originally  for  paupers,  unknown  persons 
and  criminals.  It  was  never  intended  for  persons  like  !Miss  Leegson 
and  this  Detroit  widow’s  boy.  It  was  not  right  to  compel  jMiss  Leeg- 
son’s  classmates  to  pay  for  her  funeral.  Some  of  them,  perhaps,  have 
but  little  money.  The  city  should  arrange  for  burials  of  destitutes  in 
ordinary  cemeteries,  and  no  cemetery  should  have  a certain  part  or 
section  set  aside  for  those  buried  at  the  public  expense.  Neither  the 
location  of  the  grave  nor  the  grave  itself  should  indicate  that  the  de- 
ceased had  died  friendless  or  penniless.  No  stranger  should  be  able 
to  pick  out  a pauper’s  grave. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


117 


The  two  persons  in  question  were  not  unknown  where  they  died. 
They  were  not  criminals.  They  left  no  money  or  other  property,  but 
they  were  not  paupers.  If  to  be  without  property  means  that  one  is  a 
pauper,  every  great  city  is  filled  with  paupers — men  and  women  who 
work  every  day  in  the  year — “paupers”  as  good  men  and  women  as 
breathe.  Even  one  who  has  become  an  actual  pauper  or  a criminal 
may  have  been  an  excellent  citizen.  The  potter’s  field  should  go.  It 
does  not  belong  to  this  century. 

XXVI.  WEEK  IN  A NEW  YORK  DEPARTMENT  STORE. 

A week’s  experiences  of  a young  woman  in  a New  York  depart- 
ment store,  published  in  the  “Washington  Post,”  February  1,  1915, 
and  copied  from  the  “New  York  WYrld,”  so  closely  resemble  many 
testified  to  before  this  commission  that  the  narrative  is  here  repro- 
duced : 


Shop  Girl  Spends  $6.61  a Week  and  Then  Just  Barely  Exists. 

Natalie  De  Bogory  recites  her  first  attempt  to  live  on  $6.50  for 
seven  days  while  employed  in  department  store — scanty  meals  and 
no  extravagances  her  daily  program — eleven  cents  shy,  despite  tips 


and  rigid  economy. 

Work  Is  the  hardest  of  all  human 
needs  to  find — except  before  Christ- 
mas. Hence,  it  was  that,  clothed  in 
my  $8.17  outfit,  nine  days  before 
Christmas,  I was  successful  in  finding- 
work  in  one  of  the  largest  depart- 
ment stores.  Although  it  was  not 
yet  9 o’clock  when  I reached  the  em- 
ployment desk  there  were  several 
dozen  girls  waiting,  and  before  10 
o’clock  the  number  had  swelled  to 
100. 

By  10:30  I was  already  in  my  de- 
partment, hastily  taken  in  hand  by 
the  aisle  manager,  who  explained  to 
me  the  complicated  check  and  how  it 
should  be  filled  out.  Ten  minutes 
later  I was  in  the  vortex  of  the  work, 
filling  orders  for  the  rush  of  cus- 
tomers. 

Hungry  an  Hour  After  Liunch. 

At  midday  I went  to  the  lunchroom 
for  employes  of  the  store.  Lunch  cost 
me  16  cents — and  I was  hungry  one 
hour  later,  for  the  food,  although  it 
sounds  plentiful  in  description,  lacked 
nourishment.  The  two  frankfurters 
were  boiled  until  they  were  a pale 
color;  the  saurkraut  was  only  barely 
edible:  the  coffee  was  watery:  only 
the  rolls  and  butter  were  satisfac- 
tory. 

That  whole  day  until  6:10  I was 
on  my  feet  attending  to  customers. 
My  feet  burned  and  ached  till  the 
minutes  seemed  like  hours.  I lounged 
against  the  counters  and  tables  in 
a vain  attempt  to  rest,  standing  first 
on  one  leg,  then  on  the  other. 

Dinner  and  “Home.” 

Then  I had  a 25-cent  dinner  in  a 
re^aurapt.  There  was  apparently 
sufficient  fppd,  but  it  only  allayed 


■ 1 

ELEVEN  CENTS  DEFICIT 

IN  HER  AITEEKLY  ACCOUNT 


Wednesday  — Breakfast.  15c; 
lunch,  16c;  dinner,  25c;  car- 
fare, 10c  $0.66 

Thursday  — Breakfast,  15c; 
lunch,  14c:  dinner,  25c:  car- 
fare, 10c  64 

Friday — Breakfast,  15c;  lunch, 

16c:  dinner,  25c:  carfare, 

10c  66 

Saturday  — Breakfast,  15c: 
lunch,  17c;  dinner,  25c:  car- 
fare, 10c  67 

Sunday  — ■ Breakfast,  10c: 
lunch,  10c;  dinner,  20c: 
washing,  43c  83 

Total  for  five  days $3.46 

At  an  average  daily  expense 
of  65  cents,  Monday  and 
Tuesday  would  have  cost 

me  1.30 

On  same  basis,  my  room  rent 
for  week  2.00 

Total  for  week $6.76 

Received  in  tips 15 

$6.61 

Deficit 11 

I 


hunger,  for  I was  ravenous  an  hour 
after.  The  soup  was  too  watery; 
there  was  only  enough  meat  for  a 
first  “helping,”  as  it  would  be  deemed 
in  a household,  and  the  two  veget- 
ables were  doled  out  in  portions  as 
small  as  they  were  tasteless.  A des- 
sert, coffee,  with  bread  and  butter, 
completed  the  meal. 

And  after  that? 

Nothing, 


118 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


It  was  only  a little  after  8 o’clock, 
and  I had  no  place  to  go,  only  a hall 
bedroom  to  sit  in.  I dare  not  afford 
the  money  for  a newspaper.  There 
was  nothing  for  me  to  do  but  go  to 
bed. 

Her  Second  Day’s  Schedule. 

Next  day  I had  to  be  at  the  store 
counter  by  8:15,  and  I had  to  work 
until  6:35,  without  a rest,  except  at 
lunch  time. 

That  second  day  I sold  $35  worth 
of  goods,  which  represented  a large 
number  of  sales,  for  the  articles  were 
cheap.  My  highest  sale  record  in  one 
day  reached  $47,  but  the  average  was 
$30. 

That  day  I ate  only  a very  unpleas- 
ant tomato  soup,  with  rolls  and  but- 
ter and  coffee;  it  cost  me  14  cents. 
A woman  gave  me  a 10-cent  tip,  which 
I had  to  take,  but  even  this  accre- 
tion did  not  justify  me  in  any  extra- 
vagance. 

Friday  was  just  like  the  days  be- 
fore and  the  days  that  followed.  I 
rose,  dressed,  ate,  worked,  ate  at  the 
store  a watery  clam  chowder,  worked, 
ate,  felt  a little  lonely,  and  went  to 
bed.  What  else  was  there  to  do? 

Light  Diet  on  Sunday, 

Sunday  was  a bright  day.  It  was 
late  when  I got  up.  My  breakfast 


did  not  take  me  long;  I would  have 
lingered,  but  you  can’t  linger  over 
one  egg. 

Then  I made  up  my  accounts  for 
the  week.  My  expenses  came  to  $6.61, 
making  a deficit  of  11  cents,  in  spite 
of  the  fact  that  I had  received  15 
cents  in  tips.  To  balance  my  accounts 
I would  have  to  do  without  my  20- 
cent  dinner  on  Sunday:  but  crackers 
and  milk  are  a frequent  diet  with 
the  poorly  paid  woman.  I had  hoped 
to  buy  a paper,  but  I could  not  afford 
to  do  so. 

So  the  days  went  until  Thursday. 
On  that  day  everybody  talked  and 
thought  only  of  the  evening,  when, 
with  our  pay  envelopes,  most  of  us 
would  receive  printed  slips  thanking 
us  for  our  services.  When  evening 
came  I was  laid  off,  with  many  others. 

Chrlstma.s  Day  Lonely. 

Christmas  day  was  just  like  Sun- 
day. Oh,  the  weary,  lonely  hours! 

It  was  7:30  when  I went  to  bed. 

On  Saturday  there  was  absolutely 
nothing  to  do.  It  was  fruitless  look- 
ing for  a job.  I spent  the  day  as  I 
did  all  other  days  of  rest.  I made 
up  mv  weekly  account  on  Sunday.  It 
was  11  cents  short — ^just  a chip  off 
my  lunch  and  dinner.  I was  elated. 
But  I really  would  have  liked  a little 
supper  before  going  to  bed  that  night. 


XXVII.  A PROGRESSIVE  MERCHANT. 

Respecting  minimum  wage  laws,  the  following  appeared  a few 
months  ago  in  the  first  column  of  the  editorial  page  of  the  “Chicago 
Evening  American”: 

At  a recent  gathering  of  the  National  Dry  Goods  Association  in  the 
city  of  New  York,  representing  with  unusual  force  the  business  energj-  and 
intelligence  in  the  United  States,  an  address  was  made  by  Mr.  Arthur 
Letts,  of  Los  Angeles.  His  subject  was  the  progressive  merchant.  The 
extracts  which  follow,  taken  from  his  address,  will  interest  thousands  of 
other  merchants,  deeply  anxious  to  do  their  full  duty,  and  not  limiting 
their  sense  of  responsibility  to  merchandising  or  money  making  onlj-. 

Merchants  and  employes  alike  will  be  interested  in  what  !Mr.  Letts 
said  about  the  minimum  wage  and  the  eight-hour  da}'. 

The  able  merchant  wdll  welcome  the  minimum  wage,  wLich  will  com- 
pel all  others  to  work  on  equal  conditions  with  him  as  regards  labor. 

The  minimum  wage  and  an  eight-hour  day  wall  hurt  no  merchant, 
when  they  are  made  compulsory  for  all  merchants. 

No  business  man  wants  to  concentrate  his  energies  on  overworking 
or  underpaying  women  if  he  can  help  it. 

But  when  competition  takes  the  form  of  wage-cutting  and  long  hours 
then  the  man  who  hates  it  most  may  be  compelled  to  cut  wages  and  over- 
work his  own  employes — when  failure  is  the  alternative. 

The  spirit  of  Mr.  Letts’  intelligent  and  patriotic  talk  which  we  give 
here  is  an  encouraging  sign  of  the  times,  hopeful  and  inspiring. 

These  are  the  extracts  from  the  address  of  this  broad-  minded 
merchant  that  relate  to  the  laws  mentioned : 

My  subject  is  the  “Progressive  Merchant.”  Sometimes,  as  you  all 
know,  when  we  are  taking  our  greatest  steps,  it  is  most  difficult  to  see 
what  we  are  accomplishing.  We  have  to  wait  until  the  “smoke  clears 
away.”  In  the  midst  of  the  present  industrial  unrest,  with  _ the  tension 
existing  between  capital  and  labor,  and  the  decided  battle  lines  marked 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


119 


out  between  them,  we  are  found  asking  ourselves  or  each  other : “Is  life 
just  the  making  of  money?”  “Are  there  no  high  ideals?”  “Is  the  world 
dollar  mad?”  And  while  we  are  asking,  a thousand  voices  are  raised  in 
.protest.  One  says,  “We  are  seeking  a minimum  wage.”  A second,  “We  are 
sharing  our  profits.”  A third,  “We  are  pushing  the  eight-hour  law.”  And 
still  another,  “We  are  recognizing  a brotherhood  with  the  people  that  serve 
us.”  i.j 

There  is  a great  cry  ringing  through  our  nation.  It  is  a cry  for  better 
conditions  for  the  working  woman,  the  working  man ; “Better  pay  for 
better  service.”  ! 

The  progressive  merchant  is  he  who  has  a deep  interest  in  his  em- 
ployes. He  gives  the  best  sanitary  conditions  possible  in  his  establishment. 
He  provides  the  best  food  at  the  lowest  cost  to  his  employes  in  their  lunch- 
room. 

He  furnishes  seats  behind  the  counter.  He  has  welfare  workers  in 
his  establishment.  He  protects  his  female  employes.  He  does  not  pay 
women  dependent  upon  themselves  less  than  a livable  wage. 

He  encourages  mutual  benefit  associations.  His  interest  in  his  em- 
ployes is  humane  and  progressive. 

He  encourages  shorter  hours  of  labor;  he  is  ever  to  be  recognized  as 
favoring  a profit-sharing  plan.  In  consequence,  he  has  the  loyalty  of  his 
employes  and  possesses  a soul  that  is  above  the  dollar  mark. 

The  progressive  is  also  he  who  believes  in  business  associations ; and 
all  cities  should  have  their  associations.  I urge  you  to  form  local  asso- 
ciations in  your  own  town,  composed  of  merchants  in  your  own  line  of 

business.  Cut  out  all  prejudices  and  suspicions.  Form  a group  of  retail 
dry  goods  merchants  for  bettering  conditions.  Meet  together  semi- 
monthly or  monthly,  socially  at  luncheon.  Discuss  all  matters  of  interest 
to  yourselves. 

There  is  no  better  way  of  improving  trade  conditions  than  through 
such  interchange  of  ideas  and  methods  as  business  associations  make 
possible. 

The  movement  for  the  establishment  of  a minimum  wage  for  women 
and  girls  is  a matter  of  intense  interest  to  every  retailer  throughout  the 
country.  Many  states  have  taken  up  the  matter  in  all  seriousness.  New 

laws  are  being  made,  some  rational,  some  irrational.  In  a measure,  they 

are  experimental,  but  the  right  angle  will  be  struck  and  conditions  will  be 
adjusted.  You  have  to  meet  these  conditions;  meet  them  in  a spirit  of 
mutual  concession. 

Business  men  are  proverbially  averse  to  government  dictation  of  their 
affairs  in  any  particular.  It  is  essential,  however,  to  recognize  the  fact 
that  “governmental  interference,”  as  some  term  it,  is  a real  development  of 
the  present  day,  and  one  that  cannot  be  averted. 

The  best  and  only  course  for  every  retailer,  as  for  every  other  business 
man,  is  to  realize  the  new  tendencies  and  conditions,  and  gracefully  to 
accept  them — yes,  and,  better  still,  to  anticipate  the  inevitable.  Blocking 
investigations  immediately  arouses  a suspicion  that  there  is  something  to 
hide.  The  merchants  of  one  great  state,  when  the  Governor  announced  that 
he  was  in  favor  of  a minimum  wage  for  women,  telegraphed  him  that  they 
were  heartily  in  sympathy  with  the  movement,  sent  delegates  to  the  capital, 
and  the  spirit  of  mutual  esteem  and  help  was  fostered. 

A commission  was  named,  and  is  now  adjusting  a fair  wage  schedule. 


Frankly,  gentlemen,  the  minimum  wage  for  women  has  come.  You 
will  have  to  meet  it.  And  why  shouldn’t  you  meet  it?  What  harm  is  it 
going  to  do  you  if  every  merchant  has  to  pay  the  same  wage? 

It  becomes  precisely  the  same  as  other  expense  accounts.  A few  years 
ago  my  superintendent  told  me  that  he  had  been  able  to  cut  down  the  wages 
of  our  employes  lll4  per  cent.  At  that  time  I thought  it  a fine  thing, 
but  I have  come  to  see  more  clearly. 

With  the  minimum  wage  there  will  be  no  injustice  and  no  advantage 


120 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


taken.  Hitherto  the  law  of  supply  and  demand  fixed  the  wage  schedule. 
Henceforth  it  will  be  efficiency,  and  if  the  cost  of  selling  is  increased  the 
purchaser  is  the  one  who  will  pay. 

Of  course,  it  is  hard  for  the  stand-patter  to  meet  present  conditions. 
He  hates  to  give  way.  He  likes  to  do  business  the  same  as  twenty  years 
ago.  He  doesn’t  want  these  changes. 

Well,  gentlemen,  he  must  accept  them  or  retire  from  business.  We 
must  be  open-minded. 

The  most  reasonable  legislation  affecting  wages  which  has  yet  been 
secured  is  that  which  allows  a commission  composed  of  employers,  em- 
ployes and  the  public  to  agree  upon  a minimum  wage,  taking  into  con- 
sideration the  financial  condition  of  the  concern  it  will  affect,  and  making 
punishable  a refusal  to  pay  the  agreed  wage  by  the  publication  of  the 
names  of  the  employers  refusing  in  the  daily  newspapers.  We  ought  all  to 
secure  legislation  as  rational  as  this. 

When  this  law  first  came  to  our  state  we  thought  it  very  drastic, 
inasmuch  as  it  provides  that  no  'woman  or  girl  employe  may  work  more 
than  eight  hours  in  any  day.  Time,  however,  has  proved  the  wisdom  of 
this  law. 

Merchants  have  adapted  themselves  to  it.  Business  proceeds  wdth 
ever-increasing  prosperity,  and  we  are  scarcely  conscious  of  ever  having 
worked  without  an  eight-hour  law  in  effect.  

What  we  need  is  co-operation,  that  spirit  of  getting  together  which 
has  made  the  West  what  it  is  today.  The  dry  goods  merchants  of  one 
state  organized  a local  association,  met  together  at  luncheon,  and  in  dis- 
cussing matters  of  interest  to  them  all  decided  to  open  at  9 A.  M.  and  close 
at  5:30  P.  M. 

Two  years  after  this  state  passed  an  eight-hour  law.  M’hat  a credit 
to  these  merchants  to  be  not  only  in  line,  but  ahead  of  progress! 

Anticipate  the  minimum  wage  by  consulting  with  your  school  boards 
and  arranging  to  install  in  your  local  schools  vocational  training  or  “mer- 
cantile efficiency.”  That  is  the  fundamental  principle  of  a successful  busi- 
ness equipment,  the  mercantile  value  of  honesty  and  character  as  a business 
asset  and  the  essential  study  of  reading,  writing  and  arithmetic,  which  are 
indispensable  as  qualifications  for  a position.  Every  person  has  something 
to  sell,  the  product  of  his  brain,  the  skill  of  his  fingers  or  the  strength  of 
his  muscles.  He  must  become  efficient,  so  as  to  render  satisfactory  service 
when  selling  his  ability  or  his  merchandise. 

Mercantile  efficiency  means  the  most  finished  form  of  salesmanship, 
the  most  enduring,  the  most  honest,  the  most  ethical,  and  the  most  profitable. 
It  is  here  because  there  is  a demand  for  it,  a need  for  it — the  world  is 
thinking. 

Young  people  are  beginning  to  demand  sj’stematic  instruction  that  will 
help  them  to  meet  the  daily  demands  of  life.  Our  boys  and  girls  should 
be  allowed  an  intelligent  selection  of  a vocation,  instead  of  the  haphazard 
entrance  into  whatever  position  presents  itself  on  leaving  school. 


XXVIII.  DESIRED  REFORMS. 

Fair  Pay  and  Fair  Hours. 

Whatever  the  average  person  may  believe  respecting  the  number 
of  hours  a day  a male  adult  may  reasonably  be  expected  to  put  in  at 
manual  labor,  it  seems  improbable  that  in  the  year  1916  many  may  be 
found  who  advocate  more  than  eight  hours  in  the  case  either  of  girls, 
boys  or  women;  and  whether  the  worker  be  man,  woman,  boy  or 
girl,  surely  it  must  be  common  belief  that  the  wage  should  be  decent. 

Secretary  of  Commerce  Redfield  strikes  popular  chord  when  he 
says : “Every  employer,  rich  or  poor,  should  be  fair  to  his  employes, 
and  the  time  is  coming  when  big  dividends  combined  with  low  wages 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


121 


will  not  be  respectable.  The  idea  that  men  rightly  can  profit  out  of 
conditions  under  which  their  fellows  wrongly  live  will  not  last.  It 
is  uncertain  how  soon  public  opinion  will  say  that  a wage  for  working 
people  in  shop  or  foundry  that  is  insufficient  to  maintain  them  in  de- 
cency shall  not  go  on  side  by  side  with  a costly  home  for  the  owner 
of  that  business,  and  perhaps  even  with  gifts  on  his  part  to  charities 
and  education.” 

Popular,  too,  and  popular  because  it  is  right,  is  the  statement  in 
the  opinion  in  the  Harvester  case  that  “if  a man  cannot  maintain  his 
enterprise  without  cutting  down  the  wages  which  are  proper  to  be 
paid  to  his  employes— at  all  events  the  wages  essential  for  their  living — 
it  would  be  better  that  he  should  abandon  the  enterprise.”  A minimum 
wage  for  women  and  for  girls  should  obtain  in  every  American  State. 
Legislation  in  that  regard  should  nowhere  be  delayed ; and  with  such 
action  should  also  come  reformations  regarding  the  four  subjects  next 
mentioned. 

Uniform  Marriage  and  Divorce  Laws. 

The  present  divorce  laws  of  New  York  breed  perjury  and  impurity. 
The  causes  for  divorce  are  but  five — impotency,  consanguinity,  bigamy, 
marriage  by  force,  adultery.  Most  of  the  decrees  granted,  naturally, 
are  for  the  fifth  cause  mentioned.  It  is  seldom  that  any  of  the  other 
causes  exist.  Consequence?  That  a husband  or  wife,  in  order  to  be 
divorced,  either  sins  or  pretends  to  have  sinned,  or  conspires  with  the 
other  to  sin  or  to  make  showing  of  it.  Scores  of  decrees  are  granted 
every  year  for  infidelity  when  there  has  been  no  infidelity  at  all — noth- 
ing but  make-believe  infidelity.  It  is  outrageous  that  either  man  or 
woman  should  feel  compelled  to  resort  to  such  conduct,  or  to  counte- 
nance it,  that  he  or  she  may  be  divorced  from  spouse  who  is  cruel, 
a deserter,  a felon,  or  an  habitual  drunkard. 

Divorce  laws  should  be  uniform  throughout  the  entire  country. 
The  causes  for  divorce  should  neither  be  too  few  nor  too  many.  In- 
compatibility of  temper  and  kindred  trivialities  should  find  no  recogni- 
tion, but  in  addition  to  the  five  causes  recognized  in  New  York,  there 
should  be  added  extreme  cruelty,  desertion,  habitual  drunkenness,  fail- 
ure to  support,  imprisonment  in  a penitentiary,  marriage  by  fraud, 
insanity  existing  at  the  time  of  marriage.  Our  statutes  should  also 
be  uniform  throughout  the  United  States.  A marriage  license  should 
be  obtained  at  least  ten  days  before  the  marriage.  Publication  of  the 
license  should  be  made  immediately  upon  its  issuance  and  such  publica- 
tion should  never  be  suppressed. 

From  1887  to  1906  American  courts  dissolved  955,535  marriages 
— one  divorce  to  every  thirteen  marriages.  There  is  something  wrong. 
What  is  it?  Is  the  fault  that  of  legislators  or  judges?  Both;  but 
most  of  it  lies  with  the  latter.  It  is  the  administration  of  the  laws 
rather  than  the  laws  themselves  that  ordinarily  invites  censure.  Our 
judges,  too  many  of  them,  have  been  careless  and  indifferent.  They 
have  winked  at  “residences”  that  were  not  bona  fide  residences.  They 
have  accepted  as  true  that  which  but  slight  effort  would  have  shown 
to  be  perjury.  The  testimony  has  gone  in  one  ear  and  out  of  the 
other.  They  have  done  practically  nothing  to  reunite  the  parties.  Too 
many  of  the  cases  have  been  tried  as  police  court  cases  are  tried. 


122  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Judges  have  granted  decrees  when  they  knew  that  there  was  collusion — 
knew  that  one  of  the  parties,  perhaps  both,  contemplated  another  mar- 
riage that  very  week,  or  even  day.  It  is  this  practice,  rather  than 
the  laws,  that  has  cheapened  divorce.  The  supreme  courts,  too,  have 
cheapened  it.  Many  a circuit  or  district  judge,  starting  out  in  the 
right  way,  has  in  time  become  indifferent  because  of  the  supreme 
court’s  reversals  of  his  divorce  cases.  A judge  is  not  very  apt  to 
deny  decrees  when  he  knows  that  the  supreme  court  will  grant  them. 

EMPLOY  COMMON  SENSE. 

What  should  be  done?  Insist  upon  bona  fide  residences.  Require 
personal  notice  or  service  upon  the  defendant  whenever  possible. 
Erown  upon  collusion  and  perjury.  Weigh  the  evidence  as  it  is  weighed 
in  ordinary  cases.  Employ  common  sense.  Refuse  to  grant  a decree 
for  things  that  have  happened  time  and  time  again  in  the  judge’s  own 
home  without  breaking  up  his  household.  Provide  for  the  appearance 
of  the  public  prosecutor  in  every  case  in  which  there  are  minor  chil- 
dren— not  a nominal  or  perfunctory  appearance,  but  an  honest  one. 
Strive  for  reconciliation.  Do  away  entirely  with  the  taking  of  proofs 
before  commissioners  or  referees,  except  the  depositions  of  witnesses 
beyond  the  jurisdiction. 

Grant  no  decree  until  six  months  after  the  filing  of  the  bill.  Pro- 
hibit remarriage  of  either  party  before  the  end  of  the  ninth  month. 
Take  no  testimony  in  private.  Provide  that  the  questions  of  alimony 
and  of  the  children’s  maintenance  shall  be  open  during  the  husband’s 
lifetime,  whether  he  remarries  or  not,  nothing  to  cut  off  additional 
alimony  to  the  wife,  in  case  of  subsequent  fortune  coming  to  him,  but 
her  remarriage.  Make  it  clear  to  every  man  and  woman  that  his  or 
her  right  to  a divorce  must  be  as  clearly  established  as  the  right  to 
recover  for  the  loss  of  an  arm ; that  marriage  contracts  are  at  least 
as  binding  as  any  other  contract;  and  make  it  impossible  for  any 
person  to  marry  legally  in  any  other  state  during  the  prohibited  period. 
Judge  Joseph  Aspinall  of  Brooklyn  put  it  nicely  two  years  ago  when 
discussing  an  abuse  that  has  so  long  obtained.  “It  is  idiotic,”  he 
said,  “that  I should  solemnly  hand  down  a decision  in  the  supreme 
court  of  New  York  forbidding  a man  to  marrj^  again  in  the  lifetime 
of  his  wdfe  from  whom  he  has  just  been  divorced,  when  in  ten  minutes 
and  for  ten  cents  he  can  go  to  New  Jersey  and  be  legally  married.” 

MONEY  NO  MORE  SACRED  THAN  MARRIAGE. 

Wildcat  money  had  to  go.  People  tired  of  it.  They  would  no  longer 
tolerate  currency  that  was  not  current.  The  system  became  intolerable 
that  made  it  possible  for  “money”  good  in  Illinois  to  be  worthless  in 
Indiana.  It  was  at  least  exasperating  for  a man  to  have  his  wallet 
stuffed  with  bank  notes  and  yet  not  know  whether  he  had  a cent  or 
not.  The  people  demanded  a change  and  they  got  it.  Ever  since  the 
change,  paper  money,  so-called,  has  been  of  no  greater  value  at  home 
or  forty  miles  from  home,  than  in  any  other  part  of  the  L^nited  States. 
No  matter  in  what  section  he  may  be,  a man  usually  can  tell  without 
consulting  either  banker  or  lawyer  whether  what  he  carries  is  mone)' 
or  not. 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


123 


Not  so  in  the  case  of  marriage.  With  forty-eight  different  sets 
of  divorce  laws  it  is  not  surprising  that  complications  exist.  As  things 
stand,  A may  be  married  in  one  state,  unmarried  in  another.  B, 
although  not  a veritable  Mormon,  may  have  two  living  wives — one  in 
Illinois,  the  second  in  some  other  state.  So,  of  course,  may  it  be  with 
women.  And  occasionally,  even  a good  lawyer  finds  it  impossible  to 
state  with  certainty  whether  A or  B is  legally  married  or  not.  As  a 
consequence,  children  frequently  are  illegitimated — practically  bas- 
tardized. Nine-tenths  of  these  children,  too,  are  born  to  parents  who 
have  never  intended  to  violate  the  laws  of  either  state  or  society.  There 
is  no  cure  for  this  evil  except  uniform  marriage  and  divorce  laws. 
Forty-eight  states  would  not  come  into  this  union  of  laws  in  forty-eight 
years.  The  national  congress  and  the  president  could  give  the  desired 
relief  inside  of  forty-eight  hours.  Surely,  money  is  no  more  sacred 
than  marriage. 

Indemnity  for  Unjust  Imprisonment. 

Wherever  the  common  law  has  obtained  damages  have  always  been 
recoverable  for  slander,  libel  and  false  imprisonment.  Any  person 
slandered,  libeled  or  inexcusably  deprived  of  liberty  has  had  right  of 
action  against  the  guilty  person  or  persons. 

Unfortunately,  however,  no  provision  has  ever  been  made  in  any 
English-speaking  country  or  state  for  the  recovery  of  damages  from 
the  state  by  one  wrongfully  imprisoned  for  crime.  Legislatures  have 
granted  indemnities  to  innocent  persons  released  from  wrongful  im- 
prisonment, but  such  grants  have  been  made  as  matter  of  grace  rather 
than  of  right.  No  matter  how  long  the  imprisonment,  how  great  the 
pecuniary  loss,  the  wronged  individual  has  been  without  legal  right 
to  demand  indemnification  by  the  state.  The  allowance  of  an  indemnity 
has  depended  entirely  upon  the  mood  of  the  legislature. 

A bill  is  now  before  the  congress  to  provide  for  the  recovery  of 
damages  by  federal  prisoners  wrongfully  convicted  and  imprisoned. 
The  bill  should  prevail.  A similar  law  should  be  enacted  in  every 
state  in  the  Union.  It  is  not  enough  that  the  law  affords  the  injured 
party  a remedy  against  the  person  or  persons  whose  perjury  brought 
about  conviction.  The  perjurer  or  perjurers  may  be  execution-proof, 
may  be  dead.  In  a majority  of  cases,  too,  the  false  testimony  proceeds 
not  from  perjury,  but  from  mistake — mistake  for  which  there  is  no 
legal  liability. 

Various  laws  looking  toward  the  relief  by  the  state  of  persons 
wrongfully  imprisoned  have  been  enacted  in  Austria,  Hungary,  France, 
Switzerland,  Germany,  Denmark,  Norway,  Sweden,  Portugal  and 
Mexico.  The  bill  now  before  our  congress  should  become  a law. 
Every  state  in  the  Union  should  hasten  to  do  what  should  have  been 
done  long  ago.  The  examples  set  by  the  peoples  of  Europe  and  of  Latin- 
America  should  be  followed  by  our  people  without  further  delay.  The 
denial  of  justice  to  an  innocent  prisoner  was  a wrong  in  any  of  the 
past  centuries,  is  not  short  of  a crime  in  the  twentieth  century.  Think 
of  it!  Years  in  prison,  loss  of  home,  friends,  earnings,  name,  health — 
absolutelv  innocent — and  then  be  turned  adrift  without  a dollar.  Or, 
sadder  still,  perhaps,  return  to  loyal  but  destitute  family. 


124  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

XXIX.  THE  STATE  CONSTITUTION. 

A number  of  men  got  together  forty-six  years  ago  and  framed  a 
new  constitution  for  Illinois.  The  people  of  the  state  ratified  it  and 
it  became  of  force  August  8,  1870.  This  constitution  provides  that  if 
two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each  house  of  the  general  assembly 
shall  so  order,  the  question  of  holding  a convention  for  the  purpose 
of  revising,  altering  or  amending  the  constitution  of  1870  shall  be  sub- 
mitted to  the  people  at  the  next  general  election.  If  a majority  of 
the  electors  voting  at  such  election  shall  favor  the  holding  of  such 
convention,  the  same  shall  be  held  and  its  final  action  be  submitted 
in  due  time  to  the  state’s  electors  for  ratification  or  rejection.  Unless 
a majority  of  the  electors  voting  at  the  election  shall  vote  in  favor 
of  the  convention’s  work,  nothing  can  be  done  toward  a change  until 
the  next  session  of  the  legislature  or  general  assembly.  Then  the 
same  performance  may  be  repeated  if  two-thirds  of  the  members  of 
each  house  shall  be  agreeable. 

Should  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  elected  to  each  of  the  two 
houses  elect  not  to  call  for  a convention,  but  to  submit  amendments 
directly  to  the  people,  provision  is  made  for  such  action;  but  the 
general  assembly  is  prohibited  from  proposing  “amendments  to  more 
than  one  article  of  this  constitution  at  the  same  session,  nor  to  the 
same  article  oftener  than  once  in  four  years.” 

It  would  have  been  just  as  competent  for  the  constitution  makers 
of  1870  to  provide  that  the  question  of  holding  a convention  should 
only  be  submitted  when  demanded  by  nine-tenths,  or  by  an  unanimous 
vote  of  the  members  of  the  legislature,  as  it  was  to  provide  for  a 
two-thirds  vote ; and  equally  competent  to  provide  that  the  work  of 
the  convention  should  be  ratified  only  in  case  of  an  unanimous  vote 
of  the  electors  to  that  effect.  Think  of  the  absurdity  and  the  injustice 
of  declaring  in  1870  or  any  other  year  that  the  work  of  such  year 
should  and  must  stand  without  change  for  an  hundred  or  a thousand 
years  unless  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each  house  of  the  legisla- 
ture shall  consent  to  have  the  question  of  such  change  submitted  to 
the  people ! And  what  is  to  be  thought  of  an  ironclad  provision  that 
at  no  time,  no  matter  what  the  exigencies,  and  even  though  every  man 
voting  for  the  constitution  containing  such  provision  may  have  been 
in  his  grave  half  a century  or  more,  but  one  article  can  be  amended 
by  the  people  at  the  same  time? 

A constitutional  convention  may  not  be  necessary;  but  when  the 
legislature  next  convenes  in  general  session,  steps  should  immediately 
be  taken  to  amend  the  article  in  which  appears  this  unreasonable, 
uniust  and  abominable  restriction.  The  people  of  1870  had  no  more 
right  to  tie  the  hands  of  the  people  of  1916  than  we  have  to  tie  those 
of  the  people  of  1957  or  2000.  Suppose  that  this  constitution  should 
have  provided  that  women  should  have  no  vote  at  any  election;  that 
railway  charges  should  never  be  the  subject  of  legislation;  that  a legal 
day’s  labor  should  not  be  less  than  twelve  hours ; that  the  constitution 
should  be  subject  to  change  or  amendment  onty  once  ever}"  fift}-  years; 
and  that  it  could  be  changed  or  amended  only  by  an  unanimous  vote ! 
W^ould  not  courts,  prone  though  they  be  to  find  constitutional  objec- 
tions, find  room  for  the  holding  that  such  provisions  were  too  un- 


Working  of  Present  Laws 


125 


reasonable  to  be  upheld  or  sustained  in  the  twentieth  century?  May 
not  there  be  room  for  such  finding  with  respect  to  the  constitution  as 
it  is?  A constitution  is  not  a statute,  but  it  is  nevertheless  a law.  Is 
it  not  still  the  rule  that  when  the  reason  for  a law  ceases  the  law  itself 
should  cease? 

Judge  Cooley  and  other  law  writers  in  his  class  have  all  agreed 
that  the  legislature  of  an  American  state,  unlike  the  national  congress, 
has  unlimited  power  in  regard  to  legislation,  except  where  it  is  ex- 
pressly restrained  by  state  or  national  constitutional  provisions ; that 
the  presumption  is  that  it  can  make  effective  any  measure  passed  by  it, 
which  presumption  can  only  be  overcome  by  indisputable  showing 
that  the  enactment  is  in  direct  violation  of  either  the  state  or  federal 
constitution,  or  both;  that  the  courts  will  always  incline  toward  the 
upholding  of  the  act’s  validity;  and  that  in  case  of  doubt  it  will  be 
resolved  in  favor  of  the  legislature’s  power. 

All  judges,  however,  have  not  the  inclination  so  to  act;  and  no 
American  constitution  has  yet  pointed  out  way  to  punish,  other  than 
at  the  polls,  the  authors  of  an  unconstitutional  decision  of  a final 
court.  Impeachment  no  more  applies  to  such  case  than  to  one  in 
which  the  legislature  has  passed  an  unconstitutional  act.  The  only 
way  to  wipe  out  an  unconstitutional  decision  of  a final  court  is  to  get 
the  judges  to  change  mind,  or  to  wait  until  the  election  of  judges  of 
another  mind.  But  it  is  or  should  be  manifest  to  all  that  under  the 
state  constitution  as  it  stands  not  any  of  the  certain  greatly  needed  leg- 
islation for  Illinois  could  consistently  be  sustained  by  any  supreme  court 
justice  worthy  place  in  the  judiciary;  and  that  the  only  remedy  for  cure 
of  the  existing  defects  is  either  a new  or  an  amended  constitution. 


XXX.  MINIMUM  WAGE  LAWS  ENACTED 
IN  NINE  STATES 

— All  Passed  After  Investigation  Conducted  By  This  Committee. 

In  1913  minimum  wage  laws  were  enacted  in  nine  states — Cali- 
fornia, Colorado,  Massachusetts,  Minnesota,  Nebraska,  Oregon,  Utah, 
Washington  and  Wisconsin.  With  the  exception  of  Utah,  where  the 
administration  of  these  laws  is  confided  to  a single  commissioner,  a 
commission  or  board  for  that  purpose  is  established  in  each  of  such 
states. 

In  California  the  law  relates  to  all  industries,  and  covers  women, 
also  minors  under  eighteen.  The  wage  established  is  determined  by 
ascertainment  of  the  “necessary  cost  of  proper  living.”  All  industries 
are  also  covered  in  each  of  the  other  states  excepting  Colorado.  In 
that  state  the  act  is  confined  to  women  and  to  minors  under  eighteen 
employed  in  mercantile  and  manufacturing  establishments,  laundries, 
hotels,  restaurants,  and  telephone  and  telegraph  offices,  etc.  The  rate 
of  pay  is  determined  by  “necessary  cost  of  living”  and  “financial  condi- 
tion of  the  business.” 

In  the  seven  other  states  the  persons  protected  and  the  principle 
of  wage  determination  are,  respectively,  as  follows : 


126 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Massachusetts — women,  minors  under  18;  “needs  of  the  em- 
ployes” and  “financial  condition  of  the  business.” 

Minnesota — women,  all  under  21 ; “living  wages.” 

Nebraska — women,  minors  under  18;  “needs  of  employes”  and 
“financial  condition  of  the  occupation.” 

Oregon — women,  minors  under  18;  “necessary  cost  of  living.” 

Utah — females;  “experienced  adults  $1.25  a day.” 

Washington — women,  minors  under  18;  “necessary  cost  of  living.” 

Wisconsin — women  and  minors;  “a  living  wage.” 

OREGON. 

The  Oregon  commission  prescribed  a minimum  scale  of  $8.25  a 
week  for  all  women  employed  in  industrial  occupations  and  set  fifty- 
four  hours  as  the  maximum  they  may  be  employed  in  any  one  week. 
The  time  of  employment  before  a woman  shall  be  considered  an  expe- 
rienced worker  and  entitled  to  the  minimum  wage  is  one  year,  and  the 
wage  for  the  apprentice  period  is  $6  a week. 

“We  deem  that  the  sum  required  to  retain  a self-supporting  woman 
in  frugal  but  decent  conditions  of  living  is  an  absolute  minimum  of 
$8.25  a week,”  said  the  report  of  the  conference  on  which  the  commis- 
sion’s ruling  was  based. 

The  conference  was  composed  of  three  representatives  each  of  the 
employes,  employers  and  the  general  public. 

In  advocacy  of  the  commission’s  finding,  its  distinguished  chair- 
man said : “An  industry  which  does  not  pay  its  employes  enough  to 
cover  their  necessary  costs  of  living  is  a parasite  on  the  homes  of  the 
poor  and  is  subsidized  by  its  employes.  If  any  industry  is  so  impor- 
tant to  the  community  as  to  deserve  to  be  sustained  by  a subsidy  such 
a subsidy  should  come  from  some  other  source  than  its  working  girls. 

“The  principle  on  which  the  act  is  based  is  that  the  welfare  of 
women  must  take  precedence  over  any  commercial  consideration.  The 
mothers  of  the  future  generation  should  not  be  sacrificed  to  industrial 
gain.” 

In  the  first  case  brought  to  test  the  act’s  constitutionalit}^  the  trial 
judge,  in  sustaining  its  validity,  expressed  the  opinion  that  it  is  in  the 
interest  of  health  that  a working  woman  or  child  should  have  enough 
to  eat  and  wear,  and  a decent  bed. 


WASHINGTON. 

At  six  different  conferences  held  in  the  state  of  Washington  testi- 
mony was  taken  by  the  commission  touching  the  average  annual  ex- 
penditures of  self-supporting  women.  The  testimony  was  confined  to 
six  classes,  and  showed  as  follows  : Mercantile,  $520;  factor}'.  $462.80; 
laundry,  $468;  telephone  and  telegraph,  $468;  hotel  and  restaurant, 
$572;  office,  $520;  general  average,  $501,80. 


Working  of  Present  Laws  127 


The  items  entering  into  the  general  average  were  as  follows : 

Meals  and  room $273.25 

Shoes  and  rubbers 9.86 

Repairing  of  shoes 2.01 

Stockings  2.86 

Underwear 4.91 

Petticoats 3.80 

Suit  22.77 

Coat 13.45 

Dresses  and  aprons 15.24 

Shirtwaists  7.61 

Handkerchiefs  1.52 

Corsets  4.34 

Corset  waists  2.03 

Gloves  3.17 

Neckwear  1.38 

Hats 9.22 

Umbrella  _ 1.55 

Repair  of  clothing 3.29 

Laundry  21.73 

Medicine  and  dentistry  14.96 

Street  car  fare 26.62 

^Newspapers  and  magazines 4.55 

Stationery  and  postage  3.61 

Association  dues  3.39 

Insurance  5.91 

Vacation  expenses  12.21 

Amusements  9.80 

Church  and  other  contributions 5.43 

Incidentals 11.23 


Total  $501.80 


The  commission  fixed  minimum  weekly  wages  for  women  as  fol- 
lows: Mercantile,  $10;  factory,  $8.90;  laundry,  $9;  telephone  and 
telegraph,  $9;  hotels  and  restaurants,  $11  for  waitresses  and  $9  for 
other  employes;  office,  $10. 

XXXI.  CONCLUSION. 

The  members  of  this  Committee  regard  with  contempt  the  cry 
raised  by  a few  employers  and  their  paid  emissaries  that  the  public 
hearings  conducted  by  it  tended  to  asperse  the  integrity  of  the  women 
and  girls  of  Illinois  and  of  the  entire  country  who  work  for  a living. 
Small  and  miserable  though  her  pay  may  be,  the  average  woman  or  girl 
worker  in  the  United  States  is  not  surpassed  in  virtue  by  any  of  her 
sisters,  rich  or  poor,  in  any  country.  But  a starvation  wage  has  never 
yet  promoted  virtue  in  any  land,  and  thousands  of  girls  and  women  in 
our  own  country  might  today  bless  happy  homes  had  they  been  paid 
a decent  wage  by  those  whose  fortunes  they  helped  to  build.  A mini- 
mum wage  law  will  not  prevent  all  from  going  wrong,  but  it  will  leave 
no  girl  or  woman  to  suffer  from  hunger  and  cold  and  absolute  misery, 
and  will  save  many  indeed  from  the  sad  fate  that  has  come  to  so  many 
of  that  sex  because  of  a system  captained  by  Greed  and  Inhumanity. 

Many  good  men  and  women  profess  to  believe  that  the  world  would 
soon  go  to  smash  if  every  person,  whether  fond  of  work  or  play,  should 
always  have  sufficient  food,  clothing  and  shelter.  Other  good  men  and 
women  think  that  the  world  would  not  be  bettered  were  sunlight,  pure 


128  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

air  and  good  water  to  be  had  only  by  the  industrious  and  the  rich — be- 
lieve that  the  world  would  be  better  than  it  is  if  no  innocent  person 
should  ever  know  from  experience  the  suffering  and  the  mortifications 
born  of  want  in  the  midst  of  plenitude.  Their  doctrine  is  that  neither 
misfortune  nor  improvidence  should  deprive  any  man’s  dependents  of 
enough  to  eat  or  to  wear,  of  either  comfortable  fire  or  decent  roof — 
that  the  right  to  such  is  not  subordinate  to  the  untaxed  and  unre- 
stricted privileges  of  natural  light  and  heat,  of  air  and  water.  Their 
theory  is  that  hunger  and  cold  breed  misery,  that  misery  breeds  crime. 

This  does  not  mean  that  all  persons  should  be  on  perfect  equality, 
that  all  should  have  the  same  of  everything,  that  all  should  share  alike, 
think  alike,  act  alike,  look  alike. 

No,  we  do  not  want  all  of  these  equalities — we  want  joys,  distinc- 
tions and  triumphs,  we  want  rivalries,  jealousies  and  sorrows,  that 
may  be  our  very  own.  But  there  are  inequalities  that  should  not  exist, 
injustices  that  should  die.  There  is  too  much  food,  fuel,  wealth  and 
humanity  in  every  land  to  leave  room  for  hunger,  cold,  and  the  heart- 
aches of  poverty.  A man’s  misfortune  should  not  bring  absolute  want 
to  his  household,  his  wife  and  children  should  not  suffer  for  his  wrongs. 
Every  able-bodied  man  unwilling  to  work  outside  should  be  compelled 
to  work  inside  the  public  workhouse  and  his  earnings  go  where  they 
belong.  And  no  man,  woman,  boy  or  girl  willing  and  anxious  to  work 
should  be  expected  to  work  for  less  than  a decent  wage. 


PUBLIC  MEETINGS 
AND  TESTIMONY 


Stenographic  report  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Illinois 
Senate  Vice  Committee,  as  transcribed  and  compiled 
by  Thomas  J.  O’Neill,  official  reporter  of  the  Com- 
mittee; Corris  & Corris,  Fuller  & Meanor  and  C.  F. 
Trick. 


NOTE:  In  studying  the  testimony  herewith  presented,  the  reader 
should  bear  in  mind  that  the  Committee  was  a legislative,  and  not  a 
prosecuting  or  judicial,  body;  that  its  sole  function  was  to  investigate 
conditions  which,  in  its  judgment,  were  associated  with  the  general 
subject  of  vice,  its  cause  and  effect,  and  thereon  to  report  to  its  crea- 
tive source,  the  upper  house  of  the  legislature.  Names  of  girl  wit- 
nesses are  used  only  where  no  moral  stigma  attaches.  In  other  cases 
the  publication  of  the  names  of  the  unfortunate  victims  is  not  de- 
manded by  the  public  interest  and  certainly  would  not  be  justifiable 
from  the  viewpoint  of  humanity  and  the  golden  rule  of  consideration. 


ih 


SESSION  I 


The  Vice  Committee  begins,  in  Chicago,  a series  of  public 

meetings  and  summons  as  witnesses  several  women  and  girls 

whose  experiences,  recounted  in  their  testimony,  reveal  some  of 

the  perils  by  which  girls  are  beset.  Testimony  given  by: 

R H ; 

Mrs.  Z M- ; 

E B ; 

Mrs.  Susan  B.  Adams,  settlement  worker; 

Mrs.  Ellis  Phillip  Aldrich,  representing  Chicago  Law  and 
Order  League; 

Mrs.  Josephine  Schell,  representing  The  New  Future  Home. 

Friday,  February  28,  1913. 

THE  ILLINOIS  SENATE  VICE  COMMITTEE  met  today,  at 
2 o’clock  P.  M.,  in  the  La  Salle  Hotel,  Chicago,  Illinois,  to  take  testi- 
mony regarding  “THE  WHITE  SLAVE  INDUSTRY,”  in  accord- 
ance with  a Resolution  of  the  Senate  adopted  Eebruary  4,  1913. 

Members  Present: 

Lieutenant-Governor  Barratt  O’Hara  (Chairman),  Chicago. 

Senator  F.  Jeff  Tossey,  Toledo. 

Senator  Edmond  Beall,  Alton. 

Senator  Niels  Juul,  Chicago. 

Senator  D.  T.  Woodard,  Benton. 

The  Committee  having  been  duly  called  to  order,  the  following 
proceedings  were  had : 

R H- ’s  Testimony. 

R H , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 

sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  R 

H . 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  I am  19  years  of  age. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Juul,  will  you  examine  the  witness, 
please. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Where  were  you  born?  A.  In  Brooklyn,  New 
York. 

Q.  Up  to  what  date  did  you  remain  in  Brooklyn,  New  York?  A.  Up 
to  two  years  after. 

Q.  Then  you  moved  to  where?  A.  Erie,  Pennsylvania. 

Q.  Then,  how  long  did  you  stay  in  Erie,  Pennsylvania. , A.  Until  1 
was  14  years  old. 

' Q.  How  long  is  that  since?  A.  Five  years. 

Q.  At  what  time  in  your  life,  if  at  any  time  in  your  life,  were  you 
induced  to  leave  your  home  to  become  an  inmate  of  any  institution? 
A.  You  mean,  why  did  I leave? 

Q.  No;  what  date  was  it?  A.  I was  about  15  years  of  age. 

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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Where  were  you  at  that  time?  A.  I was  at  home. 

Q.  In  Erie,  Pennsylvania?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  brought  to  from  there?  A.  To  Buffalo,  New 
York. 

Q.  What  inducements  were  offered  to  bring  you  there,  if  any? 
A.  Money. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  party  that  made  the  inducement?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Who  is  the  party?  A.  One  that  I went  with  at  school. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  party  and  the  address?  A.  Yes, 

sir.  (Giving  name  of  man,  and  his  address.) 

Q.  What  inducements  did  he  offer  you?  A,  My  mother  told  him 
that  she  would  get  the  constable  after  him;  and  he  gave  me  fifty  dollars 
to  go  away  from  home;  and  I went  to  Buffalo,  and  I told  my  mother 
that  there  was  another  fellow.  I went  to  Buffalo,  and  I stayed  there 
for  perhaps  ' three  months;  and  my  mother  got  hold  of  me  again,  and 
put  me  in  an  institution;  and  I was  there  a year  and  a half. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  taken  away  from  home,  you  went  with 

him  to  Buffalo?  A.  No;  1 went  by  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  efforts  to  meet  him?  A.  No;  I never  seen 
him  before. 

Q.  In  what  manner  did  he  place  you  in  an  institution  in  Buffalo? 
A.  He  didn’t  place  me  there.  1 didn’t  go  in  any  institution. 

Q.  But  did  this  man,  who  gave  you  the  fifty  dollars,  this  man 
whose  name  you  just  gave  us,  did  he  place  you  in  a house  of  evil  repu- 
tation? A.  No,  sir;  he  did  not. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  there,  if  at  all?  A.  With  my  husband. 
I have  been  married  since  that  time. 

Q.  Go  ahead  and  tell  your  story  in  your  own  way.  A.  Well,  I 
went  away,  and  after  I left  the  institution,  I started  nursing,  but  gave 
it  up  because  it  was  too  hard  for  me,  and  1 wasn’t  old  enough  any  way, 
and  I went  to  Cleveland,  and  there  I met  my  husband  through  a friend 
of  his.  There  I was  introduced  to  him,  and  he  was  going  to  Detroit 
the  next  night;  and  he  wanted  me  to  go  along,  and  I went  with  him, 
and  lived  with  him  from  May  until  July. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  were  married  then?  A.  No;  I wasn’t 
married.  I went  with  him,  and  went  home  in  July,  and  he  had  a quarrel 
with  me,  and  I went  to  Youngstown,  and  wrote  to  him  that  I needed 
money;  and  he  sent  me  some. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  When  you  say  you  wrote  to  him,  to  whom  did  you 
write?  A.  My  husband,  Victor.  He  sent  me  money  and  I went  back 
to  Cleveland,  and  lived  with  him  from  September  to  November;  and 
I was  taken  sick  and  had  to  have  an  operation.  He  put  me  in  a hospital 
and  paid  my  expenses,  and  when  I come  from  the  hospital,  he  didn’t 
want  to  live  that  way  any  more,  so  I felt  under  obligations  to  him. 
He  worked  steady  and  good  all  the  while  we  were  in  Cleveland.  Then 
we  went  to  Buffalo,  and  he  started  to  work  there  in  July.  I took  him 
home  and  introduced  him  to  my  people.  When  we  went  back  he  claimed 
he  couldn’t  get  work  again;  he  would  go  around  and  try  hard.  So  I 
got  in  need  of  money  and  in  need  of  clothes  and  things  I wanted,  and  I 
went  out  with  fellows,  and  he  didn’t  find  this  out  for  about  a week. 
Finally,  we  began  getting  in  debt  for  our  room  and  board,  and  I sug- 
gested to  him  that  I should  go  out;  and  he  wouldn’t  let  me,  and  we 
had  a quarrel.  I had  an  aunt,  and  I went  to  her,  and  we  borrowed 
money  from*  her.  I told  them  a story,  that  he  was  mean  to  me,  and 
wouldn’t  let  me  do  what  I wanted  to.  So  they  stuck  up  for  me._  I was 
working  then,  and  he  came  down  the  next  day  where  I was  working,  and 
wanted  me  to  go  back  and  live  with  him.  I went  back  and  we  got 
another  room.  He  couldn’t  get  work,  so  I kept  going  out  right  along, 
and  he  knew  it.  Finally  I ran  away  to  New  York  from  him;  and  I got 
sick,  and  I sent  for  him,  and  told  him  to  come  to  New  \ ork.  He  come 
there  and  brought  me  back  to  Buffalo.  We  stayed  there  about  four 
weeks,  and  we  had  quite  a little  money  together  then.  He  worked,  and 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


133 


we  went  to  Cleveland,  and  he  was  going  to  work  at  the  new  hotel  there. 
It  hadn’t  opened,  and  he  was  waiting  for  it,  and  there  was  so  many 
other  waiters  going  to  go  to  work  there  that  he  got  discouraged,  and  he  said 
we  must  go  to  Chicago,  as  “there  is  work  there,  and  I know  I can  get 
work.” 

Q.  About  what  date  was  that?  A.  That  was  in  October. 

Q.  That  is  October,  1912?  A.  Yes,  sir.  We  started  for  Chicago. 

Q.  He  didn’t  bring  you  here  for  the  purpose  of  placing  you  in  a 
house  of  evil  reputation?  A.  Not  that  time,  no,  sir.  He  looked  around, 
and  couldn’t  get  anything,  and  I went  out  on  the  street  several  riights, 
and  I met  Detective  O’Connor.  He  asked  me  different  things.  I lied  to 
him,  and  told  him  I was  working,  and  told  him  I had  a friend  that  gave 
me  money  every  week;  but  he  was  out  of  town.  He  said,  “Well,  you 
go  home.”  I went  home  that  night,  and  I wouldn’t  go  out  on  the  street 
at  night.  Next  day  I met  a fellow,  and  he  asked  me  if  I would  go  and 
have  a drink  with  him,  and  I said  “Yes.”  He  took  me  in  Tuckhorn’s. 
There  were  several  girls  sitting  around  there,  and  I asked  a fellow 
what  kind  of  a place  it  was;  and  he  told  me.  He  said  “Do  you  want  to 
live  here?”  I said  “Yes.” 

Q.  You  might  state  to  the  Committee  where  Tuckhorn’s  is?  A.  At 
23  Quincy  Street.  The  waiter  come  to  me  and  asked  what  I wanted.  I 
told  him  I wanted  to  speak  to  the  manager.  The  manager  come  to  me 
and  asked  me  where  I was  from.  I told  him,  from  New  York.  He  said, 
“they  must  be  quite  tough  off  if  you  came  from  New  York.”  He  said 
I could  stay  there,  however,  and  put  me  with  another  fellow,  and  he  sat 
down  with  me. 

Q.  This  man  told  you  that  he  was  employed  in  Tuckhorn’s  place? 
A.  He  was  manager,  yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  his  name?  A.  Dave  Wetzel. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Was  any  arrangement  made  for  you  to  get 
fellows?  A.  Yes,  that  I should  take  all  my  fellows  to  their  hotel.  ' 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  was  to  be  his  share?  A.  Not  any;  but 
every  waiter  that  served  us  with  drink,  if  I got  five  dollars,  I had  to  give 
him  a dollar. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  have  to  pay  that  dollar?  A.  To  the  waiter 
that  had  introduced  me  to  the  fellow. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  pay  anything  to  the  manager?  A.  No;  I did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  pay  anything  to  the  proprietor?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  paid  the  waiter,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  took  your  company  then  to  what  place? 

A.  To  the  Vista  Hotel. 

Q.  That  was  owned  by  whom?  A.  Mrs.  Tuckhorn. 

Q.  That  is  where  the  compensation  came  in  to  the  Tuckhorn’s? 
j A.  Yes,  sir. 

j Q.  All  right;  go  ahead.  A.  He  said,  if  the  fellow  would  not  go 
, there,  I must  stay  with  him  as  long  as  I could,  and  have  him  buy  drinks. 

We  were  not  allowed  to  take  less  than  a 20-cent  drink, 
j THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  drinks  were  sold  at  20  cents?  A.  Creme 
1 de  menthe. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  percentage  on  the  drinks?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  all  went  to  the  house?  A.  Yes,  sir.  So  we  lived  on  the 

North  Side. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Who  are  “we”?  A.  My  husband  and  1.  Mrs. 
Tuckhorn  wanted  me  to  move  to  the  hotel,  and  we  both  moved  there, 
f and  we  lived  there  for  three  weeks,  and  I had  a dog;  and  they  wouldn’t 
I let  me  stay  there  any  longer  with  it.  Then  we  moved  out  on  Fortieth 
" Street,  but  we  were  only  out  there  one  week.  The  woman  did  not  know 
that  I had  a dog;  and  the  next  morning  she  told  me  we  couldn’t  stay 

there  with  it.  The  next  morning  we  moved  back  to  the  hotel;  and  I sold 

j the  dog.  The  next  day  in  the  afternoon  two  government  men  came  in 
and  took  me  and  put  my  name  in  a book. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Where  was  the  place  on  Fortieth  Street?  A. 
Airs.  Black’s. 

Q.  What  was  the  number?  A.  411,  I think. 

Q.  What  kind  pi  a place  was  it?  A.  A very  respectable  place, 
because  she  asked  me  if  I was  working,  and  I told  her,  yes.  She  in- 
vestigated, and  found  out  I wasn’t  working.  She  said  we  were  not 
characters  to  be  there;  and  another  thing,  it  was  on  account  of  the  dog. 

Q.  Your  husband  knew  all  the  time  how  you  were  making  your 
money?  A.  Yes;  he  did. 

Q.  What  did  he  ask  the  waiter,  if  anything?  A.  He  never  talked  to 
anyone  there. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  the  waiter?  A.  That  was  a man  in  Buffalo. 

I met  him  on  the  street  since  this  trouble,  and  he  said  he  had  seen  of 

the  trouble  we  had,  and  he  said  he  tried  to  get  him  a position,  but  he 
said  he  didn’t  need  to  work,  that  I was  making  enough  money;  and  he 
didn’t  have  to  work. 

Q.  That  is  your  husband?  A.  Yes, 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Were  you  turning  over  your  money  to  your  husband?  A.  No; 

I kept^  the  money,  but  I gave  him  money  when  he  needed  it,  and  for 

his  meals;  I gave  him  money  right  along. 

Q.  Was  he  around  the  Tuckhorn  place  on  different  occasions  while 
you  were  there?  A.  Yes;  he  would  take  me  down  there  sometimes; 
I)ut  not  very  often. 

Q.  You  never  saw  the  proprietor  of  the  place,  or  any  of  the  waiters 
give  any  money  to  your  husband?  A.  No;  I did  not. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  he  received  money  from  the  Tuckhorn 
place,  or  not?  A.  No;  I do  not. 

EXAAIINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  In  what  manner  did  you  break  loose  from  this  life — who  caused 
you  to  break  away  from  it?  I understand  you  are  away  from  it  now; 
is  that  correct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now  then,  who  counseled  you  to  break  away  from  it?  A.  The 
Government. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Y^ou  mean  the  State  Government  or  the  Fed- 
eral Government?  A.  The  Federal  Government. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  your  husband  doing  now?  A.  He  is 
in  the  county  jail. 

Q.  On  what  charge?  A.  The  White  Slave  trade,  under  the  Mann 

Act. 

Q.  Are  you  living  a respectable  life  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  now?  A.  I am  working  in  a bank. 

SENATOR  JULTL:  IMr.  Chairman,  if  you  will  permit  me  to  say 
right  here  that  these  witnesses  that  we  have  brought  here  have  come 
under  the  impression  that  they  were  to  submit  to  an  examination  in 
executive  session,  and  while  I have  in  mind  a great  many  questions,  I 
shrink  a little  bit  from  putting  them,  and  I think  the  other  members  of 
the  Commission  feel  the  same  way  about  it.  There  will  be  a number  of 
executive  sessions  later  on  about  matters  about  which  it  is  pretty  hard 
to  go  into  details  in  a meettng  of  the  size  of  this. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Chair  feels  as  you  do,  Senator  Juul,  that 
it  is  far  from  our  desire  to  embarrass  the  witnesses.  We  wish  to  thank 

Mrs.  H for  coming  here,  and  hope  that  her  life  in  the  future 

may  he  happier,  and  that  she  may  live  a respectable  life. 

THE  WITNESS:  I thank  you,  gentlemen,  and  will  try  to  do  so. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  Dr.  Quales,  and  we 
nave  Mr.  Arthur  Burrage  Farwell,  from  whom  we  may  get  some  in- 
formation. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


135 


THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  are  glad  to  have  them  with  us. 

Mrs.  Z — M —’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  Z M , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 

sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  Z M . 

Q.  What  is  your  birthplace?  A.  Torrance,  Mississippi. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Illinois?  A.  Since  January  18,  1913. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  this  Commission  under  what  circumstances  you  were 
brought  to  Illinois?  A.  I come  here  with  the  intention  of  marrying,  and 
I was  carried  down  here  to  a house,  1625  Wabash  Avenue,  and  lived 
with  the  expectation  of  this  man  coming  back  on  Saturday. 

Q.  This  party  whom  you  intended  to  marry?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  party 
I expected  to  get  married  to  here.  He  didn’t  come  back,  and  on  Sunday 
I discovered  the  place  wasn’t  eactly  what  it  should  be;  and  in  fact,  the 
lady  comes  up  and  had  some  very  bad  talk  with  me. 

Q.  Where  is  the  man  that  brought  you  to  that  house?  Have  you 
his  address?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  home  town?  A.  He  lived  right  around 
Chicago. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  acquainted  with  him?  A.  In  Water  Valley, 
Mississippi. 

Q.  He  induced  you  to  come  to  the  City  of  Chicago,  under  the  pre- 
tense that  he  wanted  to  marry  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  placed  in  what  house,  you  say,  in  Chicago?  A.  1625 
Wabash  Avenue. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  that  marriage  take  place?  A.  He  wrote  to  me  in 
Memphis,  and  told  me  to  come  on  here.  I met  him  in  Water  Valley, 
Mississippi.  I left  there,  and  came  to  Memphis,  and  he  kept  writing  me 
and  told  me  to  come  right  on  here,  and  he  would  get  a nice  place  where 
we  could  live.  I came  on,  and  it  was  in  the  morning  when  he  carried  me  to 
this  place.  I said  “That  is  no  kind  of  a place  for  anybody  to  live  and 
keep  house.’’  He  said  “Yes,  but  you  stay  here,  and  I will  come  back  Satur- 
day. I am  going  to  East  Chicago,  to  get  work,  and  I will  get  a nice  house 
out  there,  and  come  back  to  you  Saturday.”  He  went  away  and  didn’t 
come  back  at  all. 

Q.  What  took  place  between  you  and  the  landlady  of  that  house? 
Tell  us  what  transpired  between  you  and  that  landlady?  A.  I never  had 
but  very  little  to  say  to  her,  from  the  time  I went  there  on  Sunday  morn- 
ing until  the  next  Sunday.  I got  a newspaper,  and  when  I was  going 
up  the  steps  I was  crying.  She  said  “What  are  you  crying  about.”  I 
said  “I  don’t  know;  I have  got  the  blues.”  She  said  “You  have  no  right 
to  have  the  blues,  a woman  like  you.  What  have  you  got  the  blues  for?” 
I said,  “I  come  here  and  didn’t  find  anything  like  I expected.”  She  said, 
“You  are  very  foolish.”  She  said,  “A  woman  like  you  should  go  out  and 
make  your  living  here.”  She  told  me  she  came  here  with  two  children, 
one  a boy  and  the  other  a girl;  and  now  she  had  diamonds  and  ever3Thing 
else.  That  was  Sunday  morning. 

Q.  About  what  date?  A.  I came  here  on  the  18th.  Let  me  see. 
I left  Memphis  on  the  18th,  and  I got  here  on  Saturday,  if  I am  not  mis- 
taken, and  I think  this  was  the  18th — I got  here  Sunday  morning,  and 
this  was  the  next  Sunday  morning. 

Q.  That  would  be  about  the  25th?  A.  That  was  the  next  Sunday 
morning.  There  were  people  around  I didn’t  like,  and  I went  out  and 
asked  a policeman  to  tell  me  where  to  get  a nice  room.  I didn’t  know 
anything  about  rooms  or  anything  about  Chicago,  I had  never  been  here 
before;  so  then  they  helped  me  to  get  a room. 

Q.  Nothing  transpired  in  that  house;  this  woman  did  not  induce  you 
to  follow  her  suggestions?  A.  She  did  not.  I left  there  on  Sunday 
afternoon. 


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Q.  Where  did  you  go?  A.  I went  out  and  asked  a policeman,  and 
he  told  me  where  to  go.  He  told  me  to  go  to  the  Salvation  Army,  and 
I could  get  a nice  room.  I went  there,  and  they  told  me  there  was  no 
room  for  anybody  except  men.  I went  back  and  told  the  policeman.  I said, 
“My  things  are  in  the  house,  and  I am_  afraid  to  go  back  in  the  house  and 
get  them.”  He  said  “Go  to  the  station,  and  I will  send  and  get  your 
things.”  I went  to  the  station,  and  stayed  there  until  I got  a room. 

Q.  There  was  no  attempt  on  the  part  of  the  landlady  to  interfere 
with  your  leaving?  A.  She  didn’t  know  that  I was  going  to  leave.  A 
man  came  into  my  room.  He  came  and  pushed  my  door  open,  and  asked  me 
about  the  paper;  and  he  came  into  my  room  and  sat  down.  He  stayed  for 
a while  and  finally  went  out  of  the  room  and  come  back  in  with  some 
chewing  gum.  I had  two  little  boys,  one  six  years  old  and  one  seven 
years  old. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  The  children  were  with  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  were  with  me. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  have  a home  in  Mississippi?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  sold  your  home,  didn’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  man  get  the  money?  A.  No;  he  didn’t  get  it. 

Q.  He  persuaded  you  to  sell  the  home,  didn’t  he?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  in  Mississippi?  A.  I was  keeping  boarders 
for  a while  and  taking  in  sewing  and  had  some  money  loaned  out. 

Q.  What  became  of  the  man  that  induced  you  to  come  here,  do  you 
know?  A.  I don’t  know  where  he  is.  I left  that  house  Sunday  morning, 
and  the  next  Saturday  night  he  came  back  looking  for  me;  but  I don’t 
know  where'he  is. 

Q.  You  are  satisfied  his  intentions  were  evil  in  bringing  j-ou  here?  A. 
He  lived  right  here  in  Chicago  for  years.  Why  shouldn’t  he  know  what  the 
place  was? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  remember  the  name  of  the  policeman 
who  aided  you?  A.  No;  I don’t  know  his  name. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  The  Committee  would  like  to  put  his  name  in 
the  record  because  so  much  criticism  has  been  made  of  policemen,  and 
in  this  case  the  policeman  who  -befriended  the  woman  is  entitled  to  plenty 
of  credit. 

THE  WITNESS:  I couldn’t  tell  you  his  name,  but  I went  to  him  and 
told  him  I was  really  afraid  to  go  back  to  the  house  after  that  man  had 
acted  as  he  had,  and  this  woman  had  talked  as  she  had.  I had  two  big 
trunks  and  two  suit-cases.  I think  I would  know  him  if  I could  see  him. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Was  there  any  drinking  in  this  house  you  speak  of?  A.  That 
morning  she  asked  me  to  come  back  in  the  dining  room  where  she  was, 
I went  back  into  the  dining  room,  and  there  was  a lot  of  emptj'  beer 
bottles  which  they  had  opened  up  the  night  before. 

Q.  Were  there  any  women  in  the  house  besides  you?  A.  "ies;  there 
were  girls  there. 

Q.  Do  you  suppose  it  was  a sporting  house?  A.  I suppose  it  was.  A 
woman  was  fined  twenty-five  dollars  and  was  ordered  to  get  out  of  the 
house. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  You  have  always  been  a respectable  wmman? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I have  all  kinds  of  letters  of  recommendation  from  my  own 
home  town  which  I have  got  since  I have  been  in  Chicago. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  You  think  it  is  easy  to  go  wrong  when  one 
goes  to  a big  town?  A.  Yes;  I think  so.  I never  knew  of  these  things 
until  I struck  Chicago. 

Q.  The  landlady  at  this  place  on  M’abash  Avenue,  when  she  said 


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137 


she  was  practically  penniless,  and  had  made  lots  of  money,  did  she  go 
into  details,  or  just  insinuate?  A.  She  just  insinuated. 

Q.  She  didn’t  leave  you  in  doubt  as  to  what  she  meant?  A.  No,  sir. 

MR.  FARWELL:  Q.  Mr.  Chairman,  can  I suggest  that  a description 
of  this  man  may  be  obtained,  so  that  the  police  officers  may  find  him? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  mean  the  man  who  brought  the  witness  to 
Illinois?  MR.  EARWELL:  Yes,  sir. 

(Witness  describes  man.) 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  What  are  you  doing  now?  A.  I am  not 
doing  any  work  at  all.  I have  worked  since  I have  been  here,  worked  in 
a restaurant  and  worked  in  a bakery. 

Q.  Who  is  supporting  you  and  your  children  now?  A.  I have  a 
little,  means  of  my  own.  I am  not  working;  I am  staying  off  now  getting 
my  children  ready  to  put  them  in  a boarding  school. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Are  you  being  aided  by  any  institution  of 
good  people,  charitable  workers?  A.  No,  sir;  not  right  now. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  stay  in  the  New  Future  Home  for  a while?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  I stayed  there  for  about  two  weeks. 

Q.  Then  the  matron  there  did  befriend  you?  A.  Yes;  I thought 
you  meant  right  now. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  only  want  to  find  out  who  the  people  in 
this  city  are  who  are  helping  people  who  have  been  led  astray,  and  when 
we  find  who  they  are,  we  want  to  give  them  credit  for  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:.  We  want  to  assure  you  of  the  best  wishes  of 
the  Committee  for  yourself  and  your  children.  An  honest  policeman  helped 
you  in  Chicago,  and  the  New  Future  Home  followed  it  up. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  They  apparently  are  not  all  bad  in  Chicago. 

THE  WITNESS:  O,  no;  there  are  good  and  bad  everywhere,  I guess. 

G F ’s  Testimony. 

G F called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Just  state  your  name?  A.  G F . 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  Twenty-one  years  old. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  At  Perry  Sound,  Ontario. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  live  there?  A.  Thirteen  years. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  came  to  Illinois?  A.  I came  here  the 
latter  part  of  October  or  the  first  of  November,  I am  not  sure  which. 

Q.  Who,  if  anybody,  brought  you  here?  A.  No  one;  I was’  sent 
here  by  the  people  I was  working  for. 

Q.  Who  were  they?  A.  I would  rather  not  give  the  people’s  names. 

Q.  For  what  purpose  were  you  sent  here?  A.  To  work  for  the  same 
firm  I was  working  for  in  Canada. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  What  general  business  were  they  engaged  in? 
A.  In  the  restaurant  business. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  When,  if  at  any  time,  did  you  meet  anyone  who 
apparently  took  an  interest  in  having  women  go  astray?  A.  When  I 
come  to  the  parties. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  the  parties  were?  A.  Yes;  the  one  they  took 
me  out  to  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  What  month  did  that  happen?  A.  I guess  about  the  first  or 
middle  of  November. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  that  party?  A.  I do,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  give  it?  A.  No;  I really  will  not. 

Q.  You  wouldn’t  give  the  name?  A.  No. 


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Q.  Have  you  any  reason  why  you  want  to  shield  that  party.  A.  No; 
I don’t  want  to  shield  them  but  I don’t  want  to  have  the  name  published. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  name  will  not  be  published. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  you  give  it  to  the  Commission  in  private? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Very  well.  When  and  where  did  you  get 
acquainted  with  this  man?  A.  I went  to  a hall  with  a girl  there  at  the 
place  I worked;  and  met  him. 

Q.  What  inducement  did  he  offer  to  you  to  go  astray?  A.  The  money 
that  could  be  made. 

Q.  What  W'as  his  interest  in  having  you  go  astray?  A.  To  give  him 
the  money. 

Q.  What  arrangement  did  he  propose  with  you?  A.  I met  another 
friend  of  this  friend,  and  they  made  arrangements  with  the  landlady  in 
Gary,  Indiana,  to  be  sent  there. 

Q.  They  proposed  to  take  you  to  Gary,  Indiana?  A.  Yes.  We  went 
to  Gary,  Indiana;  we  went  in  the  evening  about  6 o’clock;  and  they  come 
down  later  about  11  o’clock. 

Q.  Did  he  take  you  along?  A.  No. 

Q.  He  induced  you  to  go  there,  however?  A.  Yes;  and  bought 
the  tickets. 

Q.  Then  where  did  he  place  you  in  Gary,  Indiana?  A.  I don’t  know 

the  number  of  the  house,  because  I wouldn’t  stay;  I turned  around  and 

left  the  next  day. 

Q.  We  haven’t  any  doubt  you  mean  to  be  a good  girl.  After  that, 
you  didn’t  want  to  lead  a life  you  ought  not  to?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  where  did  he  take  you,  or  where  did  he  send  you?  A.  I 

don’t  know  the  house,  but  it  was  down  on  Jefferson  Street  in  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  landlady  that  kept  the  place?  A. 
Her  first  name  is  Ray;  I was  only  there  one  night. 

Q.  What  if  anything  happened  there?  A.  Nothing  happened  there. 
I left  the  next  day.  I simply  refused  to  do  anything  when  I found  out  what 
the  place  was  like. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  know  what  the  place  was  like  when  you  went  there? 
A.  I hadn’t  any  idea  where  I was  going. 

Q.  What  representations  did  he  make  to  you?  A.  Only  the  money 
that  could  be  made. 

Q.  Did  he  suggest  the  amount  of  money  that  could  be  made?  A. 
Yes;  he  gave  me  an  outline  of  it. 

Q.  Did  that  outline  conform  to  what  you  found  when  you  got  there? 
A.  Yes;  but  this  other  girl  that  went  with  me  knew  all  about  it. 

Q.  She  was  an  older  girl?  A.  She  was  a younger  girl,  but  had  been 
down  the  month  previous. 

Q.  What  were  the  conditions  that  disappointed  you?  Why  was  it 
different  from  what  you  thought  it  was?  A.  Because  when  we  got  there 
I didn’t  have  the  nerve,  and  I simply  picked  up  and  left. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Did  this  girl  who  went  with  you  advise  you  to 
stay?  A.  No,  she  did  not;  she  told  me  I wasn’t  a girl  for  that  business. 
She  said,  “You  are  no  girl  for  this  business.” 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  the  dance  hall  at  which  you  met?  A.  The 
Dearborn  on  Clark  Street. 

Q.  You  met  in  that  dance  hall  the  young  man  that  induced  you  to 
go  to  Gary?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  had  known  him  how  long  before  you  were  induced  by  him  to 
go  to  Gary?  A.  A couple  of  days. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  his  business  is?  A.  Yes;  I do. 


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139 


Q.  What  is  that  business?  A.  He  is  employed  in  a liarher  siiop. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  He  really  induced  you  to  go  to  Gary?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  He  told  me  of  another  girl  he  knew  that  was  making  good  money  at 
the  same  thing.  She  was  at  that  time  supposed  to  be  his  wife;  but  since 
I have  learned  was  not. 

Q.  The  next  day  you  left  Gary  and  came  back  to  Chicago?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  in  a position  now  where  you  can  make  honest  wages? 
A.  I am  in  a position  now  where  I can  make  an  honest  living. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  this  party  say  you  could  make?  A.  He  said 
I could  make  $50  to  $75  a week. 

Q.  This  woman  in  Gary  didn’t  attempt  in  any  way  to  detain  you?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  She  practically  let  you  attend  to  your  business  and  go  back  home? 
A.  Yes. 

E — B ’s  Testimony. 

E B , a witness  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as 

follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  E B . 

Q.  Do  you  mind  giving  us  your  age?  A.  I am  23  years  old. 

Q.  What  is  your  birthplace?  A.  I was  born  in  Sweden. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  United  States?  A.  Five  years. 

Q.  Where  have  you  spent  these  five  years?  A.  I was  in  Milwaukee 
two  years  and  I was  in  Boston  two  years,  and  the  rest  of  the  time  I spent 
in  Chicago. 

Q.  Where  were  you  first,  if  at  all,  induced  to  enter  into  a life  that  was 
not  as  it  ought  to  be?  A.  In  Chicago. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  what  the  details  are  as  far  as  you  remember? 
A.  I got  acquainted  with  a gentleman  in  Milwaukee,  and  he  took  me  here. 

Q.  What  was  his  name?  A.  I don’t  like  to  give  his  name. 

Q.  Did  he  induce  you  to  come  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  your  reason  for  wanting  to  shield  him?  A.  I have  no 
reason. 

Q.  Was  he  the  man  that  induced  you  to  go  wrong?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now  tell  us  what  he  tried  to  have  you  do?  A.  Well,  we  com.e 
here  to  Chicago;  and  he  told  me  he  wouldn’t  marr}^  me  in  Chicago. 

Q.  He  offered  to  marry  you  in  Milwaukee?  A.  Yes,  and  to  come 
to  Chicago,  and  he  didn’t  marry  me,  and  we  got  out  of  money. 

Q.  How  long  was  it  before  you  got  out  of  money,  how  many  days 
before  you  got  oilt  of  money?  A.  A week. 

Q.  He  had  promised  to  marry  you  while  in  Milwaukee?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  told  you  if  you  would  come  to  Chicago  with  him  he  would 
marry  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  in  Chicago  the  money  was  gone,  and  he  wouldn’t  marry  you? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  what  took  place,  where  did  he  take  you?  A.  He  took  me 
out  to  a lady. 

Q.  Where  was  that  lady?  A.  I don’t  remember;  it  was  on  Dear- 
born Street.  I think  it  was  Twenty-second  Street.  He  asked  her  to  take 
me  in  there.  She  said  she  would. 

Q.  What  arrangements  did  you  make?  A.  I didn’t  make  no  arrange- 
ment at  all. 

Q.  You  remained  there?  A.  Yes;  I remained  there,  and  he  went 
away. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  he  got  anything  for  it?  A.  I don’t  know  anything 
about  that. 


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Q.  Did  he  come  afterwards  to  collect  any  money  from  your  landlady? 
A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there?  A.  They  broke  me  in,  and  then  they 
come  and  took  me  to  Mrs.  Adams’. 

Q.  Who  is  Mrs.  Adams?  A.  She  has  got  a home  for  girls. 

Q.  The  police  took  you  out  of  the  place  on  Dearborn  Street?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  in  the  place  when  they  took  you  out?  A.  I 
was  only  in  there  two  hours. 

Q.  After  this  man  had  left  you  in  the  place  you  stayed  there  only 
two  hours?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  know  what  you  would  be  expected  to  do  there?  A.  Yes; 
I knew. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  he  wanted  the  money  for?  A.  He  was  studying  to 
be  a doctor. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  he  have  when  he  was  arrested;  he  was 
arrested,  wasn’t  he?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  he  have?  A.  He  told  me  he  didn’t  have  any. 

Q.  How  much  did  he  have?  A.  The  officer  told  me  he  had  $450. 

Q.  Where  did  he  get  this  money?  A.  I don’t  know  where  he  got 
it. 

Q.  He  wanted  you  to  work  to  give  him  a medical  education.  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  Did  he  know  the  place  was  a sporting 
house  when  he  took  you  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that?  A.  Yes;  sure  he  told  me. 

E T ’s  Testimony. 

E T , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  your  name?  A.  E T . 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  Fifteen  years  old.  I was  15  on  the 
2nd  of  October. 

Q.  What  is  your  birthplace?  A.  Montreal,  Canada. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Illinois?  A.  It  will  be  eight  years 
in  July. 

Q.  You  may  tell  the  Committee  when,  if  at  any  time,  anyone  induced 
you  or  attempted  to  induce  you  to  lead  a life  of  shame?  A.  On  the  16th 
of  October 

Q.  The  last  16th  of  October?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  that  party?  A.  Shall  I give  his  name? 

Q.  You  may  if  you  care  to.  A.  Eugene  Nani. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  whereabouts  now?  A.  In  the  county  jail. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  took  place,  what  he  attempted  to  do  or  what  he 
advised  you  to  do,  and  what  it  resulted  in?  A.  He  advised  me  to  go 
out  to  a certain  house  in  South  Bend,  Indiana. 

Q.  Did  he  take  you  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  date  did  he  take  3'ou  there?  A.  The  17th  of  October. 

Q.  He  bought  a ticket  for  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  attempt  to  make  any  arrangement  between  you  and  the 
landlady  or  between  himself  and  j'ou  and  the  landlady?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  present  when  he  did  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  arrangement  he  made  as  to  getting  pay- 
ment for  bringing  you?  A.  No;  I don’t  think  he  got  an^-  pajmient  for 

bringing  me  there. 

Q.  Hctw  did  he  expect  to  be  compensated  for  the  trouble  he  took 
in  bringing  you  over  there?  A.  I don’t  know. 


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141 


Q.  How  was  he  interested  in  bringing  you  there?  What  did  he  say 
to  you?  A.  He  wanted  me  to  make  money  for  him. 

Q.  Did  he  say  what  proportion  of  the  earnings  you  would  have 
to  give  him?  A.  I had  to  give  him  all. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Did  this  man  ever  abuse  you?  A.-  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  do  to  you?  A.  He  beat  me. 

Q.  What  for?  A.  Because  I wouldn’t  hustle  for  him. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  enough  to  eat?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  starved  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  beat  you  and  starved  you  because  you  wouldn’t  hustle  for 
him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  only  15  years  old?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Do  you  think  he  had  other  girls  the  same  way?  A.  Not  as  I 
know. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  It  seems  to  me  that  for  a fellow  like  that  the 
gallows  would  be  better  than  the  whipping  post. 

EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  that  house?  A.  About  four  weeks. 

Q.  In  that  time  did  you  furnish  him  with  money?  A.  About  two 
weeks. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  send  him.  A.  $35. 

Q.  How  did  you  send  it  to  him?  A.  He  was  out  there. 

Q.  He  came  over  there  and  remained  there  and  got  your  money? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  that  stay  over  there  terminate  or  how  did  you  quit 
and  come  back?  A.  He  was  chased  out  of  town. 

Q.  By  whom.  A.  Some  Italian  people  up  there.  They  claimed 
to  be  Black  Hand;  and  he  had  to  leave  me  out  there  or  give  so  much 
money;  he  had  to  sign  a paper  to  give  so  much  money  in  three  days. 

Q.  That  you  don’t  know?  A.  Yes;  I was  there  when  he  signed  the 
paper. 

Q.  What  was  on  that  paper?  A.  In  three  days  he  had  to  give  so 
much  money  or  leave  town. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  for?  A.  Those  people  claimed  he  was 
able  to  make  money. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  You  remained  there  four  weeks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  caused  you  to  leave  there?  A.  Because  he  couldn’t  make 
the  money  to  give  them  people. 

Q.  Who  took  you  away  from  there?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  And  brought  you  back  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Dailey  is  here  and  would  like  to  ask 
a few  questions. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  DAILEY. 

Q.  What  is  the  age  of  this  man?  A.  He  was  20  in  January. 

Q.  He  lived  in  Chicago,  a native  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  had  been  in  the  habit  of  doing  the 
things  he  had  done  to  you  to  other  girls?  A.  No,  sir. 


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EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  You  came  back  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  didn’t  release  you  and  let  you  try  to  make  an  honest  living 
after  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  still  pursue  you  and  try  to  make  you  earn  money  for  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  he  did. 

Q.  Where  did  he  place  you  in  Chicago?  A.  On  Wabash  Avenue 
and  12th  Street  at  1230  Wabash  Avenue.  He  had  that  room  for  me  to 
make  money  for  him  in,  but  we  were  living  in  another  room  on  State 
Street. 

Q.  But  he  still  kept  collecting  from  you,  he  still  continued  to  collect? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  your  total  earnings  do  you  think  you  handed 
over  to  him?  A.  I gave  him  all  of  it. 

Q.  What  induced  you  to  take  orders  from  him  to  that  extent?  A.  He 
had  promised  to  marry  me  before  we  left  home. 

Q.  And  it  was  under  that  promise  you  did  all  these  things  for  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  much  do  you  suppose  you  gave  him  a 
week  on  an  average?  A.  I couldn’t  tell. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  didn’t  even  count  the  money  j'ou  handed 
over  to  him?  A.  I gave  him  as  much  as  $35. 

SEXTATOR  DAILEY:  Did  he  return  any  money  to  you  at  anj-  time? 
A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  you  at  any  time  refuse  to  give  him  mone}-? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  refused  to  give  him  mone}"  what  happened  to  j^ou?  A.  I 
never  refused  to  give  it  to  him. 

Q.  You  didn’t  dare  to?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Suppose  you  didn’t  give  him  any,  because  you 
hadn’t  it,  what  then?  A.  He  beat  me. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Every  time  you  hadn’t  any  money  to  turn  over 
to  him  he  would  beat  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SEXTATOR  BEALL:  Was  that  every  day?  A.  Pretty  near  every 

day. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Where  are  you  living  now?  A.  In  Mrs.  Adams’ 
home. 

Q.  That  is  a charitable  institution  or  an  institution  supported  by 
good  people?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  were  you  taken  into  Mrs.  Adams’  home; 
did  she  get  hold  of  you  and  bring  you  there?  A.  The  Government  had 
me. 

Q.  The  Government  placed  you  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  address  of  Mrs.  Adams’  house?  A.  2119  Calumet 
Avenue. 

Mrs.  Susan  B.  Adams’  Testimony. 

MRS.  SUSAN  B.  ADAMS,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Please  state  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  Susan  B.  Adams. 

Q.  Where  is  your  residence?  A.  2119  Calumet  Avenue,  Chicago. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  in  your  own  way,  Mrs.  Adams,  what  your 
work  consists  of,  and  what  you  are  succeeding  in  doing,  doing  it  like  you 
would  write  a telegram,  briefing  it?  A.  I have  been  in  girls’  work  for 
the  last  twelve  years.  Mrs.  Clark  of  the  Pacific  Garden  Mission  and 
myself  opened  a home  on  Federal  Street,  and  the  work  was  a success. 
We  had  to  give  up  that  building,  and  then  we  reunited  with  another  home 
in  the  city,  and  opened  this  one  at  2119  Calumet  Avenue. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


143 


Q.  Would  you  mind  telling  the  Committee  how  you  finance  that 
home?  A.  By  the  wealthy  ladies  of  Chicago. 

Q.  How  many  girls  can  you  afford  shelter  for?  A.  We  can  accom- 
modate comfortably  25,  but  we  would  rather  not  have  quite  so  many. 
We  take  them  in  to  work.  We  have  had  some  girls,  however,  a longer 
time  than  others.  They  follow  up  the  work  for  two  years.  Then  we 
place  them  to  work,  and  they  report  to  us  once  a week. 

Q.  What  do  you  find  as  a general  result  of  that  labor?  A.  About 
90  per  cent  have  made  new  connections.  We  don’t  handle  girls  that 
have  been  down  in  sin  for  a long  time. 

Q;  You  don’t  believe  it  is  successful?  A.  I don’t  believe  in  mixing 
them.  I suppose  it  is  successful.  We  have  handled  more  than  125  since 
last  May,  and  I have  handled  between  600  and  700  in  the  past  six  years. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  You  believe  what  is  commonly  termed  as  White  Slavery  exists? 
A.  I certainly  know  it  does. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  reports,  the  common  newspaper  reports 
concerning  White  Slavery  are  exaggerated?  A.  No;  I do  not;  I do  not 
think  there  is  any  exaggeration. 

Q.  It  has  been  underestimated  if  anything?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  any  girl  coming  to  a large  city  is  under  a certain 
disadvantage?  A.  I do  most  emphatically;  and  girls  who  have  homes 
out  of  the  state  who  come  here,  we  try  to  warn  them. 

Q.  Did  you  read  a story  in  one  of  the  magazines  during  the  last 
few  months,  entitled  “My  Little  Sister?’’  A.  No;  I did  not. 

Q.  The  story  purported  to  be  an  English  story  of  two  girls  of  very 
good  family,  who  had  gone  to  the  city  of  London  and  had  found  homes 
in  a house  of  ill  repute;  and  one  of  them  was  forced  into  a life  of  degra- 
dation, and  the  other  escaped.  Do  you  believe  that  condition  exists  in 
Chicago?  A.  I believe  it  has.  I don’t  know  that  it  does  at  the  present 
time,  but  I know  of  such  things  having  occurred. 

Q.  May  I ask  you,  madam,  if  in  your  ten  or  twelve  years  expe- 
rience in  this  kind  of  work,  you  think  any  woman  can  be  redeemed  re- 
gardless of  the  depth  to  which  she  has  fallen?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I do. 

Q.  Is  there  such  a system  as  booking  these  girls?  A.  There  was 
such  a system. 

Q.  And  the  adoption  of  that  booking  system  has  increased  the  safety 
of  our  girls?  A.  Yes;  I think  so,  very  much. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Anything  you  could  give  us  which  you  think 
would  benefit  the  investigation  or  any  witnesses  you  may  produce  would 
be  acceptable.  A.  I can  produce  plenty  of  girl  witnesses. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  DAILEY. 

Q.  Your  Home  is  a voluntary  association?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Maintained  entirely  by  charity?  A.  Yes,  sir;  by  subscription. 

Q.  It  is  not  incorporated?  A.  Not  yet;  but  it  will  be  after  the 
first  of  May. 

Q.  You  don’t  receive  girls  who  are  committed  from  the  County 
Court?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  are  recognized  for  that  purpose?  A.  We  take  all  young 
girls  we  feel  we  can  help. 

Q.  Girls  that  are  found  to  be  dependent  by  the  County  Court? 
A.  No;  we  take  delinquents.  We  also  take  girls  through  the  Police  De- 
partment and  take  care  of  them  until  their  relatives  come  for  them  or 
they  can  be  sent  home,  and  we  have  handled  quite  a number  of  pure 
girls,  but  most  of  our  girls  are  delinquent. 

Q.  Your  effort  I understand  is  to  take  ^rls  before  they  have  ad- 
vanced very  far  in  immorality,  and  attempt  to  save  them?  A.  Yes. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  take  girls  who  have  been  to  Geneva?  A.  I have 
been  an  officer  for  that  purpose  for  about  six  years,  and  of  course  I 
choose  the  girls  I take.  I have  any  number  of  girls  sent  out  there. 

Q.  What  becomes  of  the  girls  for  whom  no  home  can  be  found? 
There  must  necessarily  be  a large  number  of  girls  who  would  be  unable 
to  care  for  themselves?  A.  We  place  them  to  work.  We  have  accom- 
modations for  about  25  and  we  have  handled  125  in  nine  months.  We 
find  a great  many  ladies  in  the  city  of  Chicago  in  moderate  means,  who 
are  perfectly  willing  to  place  their  lives  right  alongside  of  these  girls; 
and  they  take  them.  We  have  more  demand  for  girls  than  we  hive  girls. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  DAILEY. 

Q.  Mrs.  Adams,  will  you  pardon  a question  I desire  to  ask  you. 
In  certain  cases  where  girls  are  prosecuting  witnesses  against  a charge 
of  the  commission  of  crimes  against  girlhood,  outside  of  those  cases  that 
come  under  your  purview  and  observation,  is  it  the  policy  of  your  home 
to  protect  the  girls  from  publicity?  A.  Yes;  it  is.  It  is  a great  detriment. 

Q.  I have  observed  in  some  of  the  courts  as  to  the  character  of 
these  girls  that  there  is  a great  deal  of  publicity  given  to  the  cases  of 
girls  where  no  crime  necessarily  is  involved.  You  think  those  girls 
should  be  protected  from  public  gaze  and  public  comment?  A.  Cer- 
tainly we  should  protect  them.  When  girls  are  taken  into  court  they 
usually  give  a name  other  than  their  own;  and  when  they  come  to  us 
we  learn  from  them  their  own  name. 

Q.  But  in  a case  where  crime  has  been  committed,  you  believe, 
no  doubt,  that  the  public  good  requires  such  publicity  as  is  necessary  to 
obtain  the  ends  of  criminal  justice,  and  such  information  as  might  be 
desirable  from  a sociological  standpoint?  A.  I do,  where  it  is  even  faint. 
Of  course,  if  they  proceed  in  crime,  I think  it  should  be  made  public,  to 
protect  the  public. 

Mrs.  Alice  Phillips  Aldrich’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  ALICE  PHILLIPS  ALDRICH,  called  as  a witness,  being  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  State  your  name,  please?  A.  Mrs.  Alice  Phillips  Aldrich. 

Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  19  La  Salle  Street,  Room  1303-5, 
Chicago  Law  and  Order  League. 

Q.  State  to  the  Commission  what  if  any  connection  you  have  had 
with  reform  work?  A.  For  fifteen  years  I have  been  in  reform  work 
here,  and  I have  been  giving  my  whole  life  to  it  fo’r  23  years,  and  always 
worked  with  girls.  I did  that  work  long  before  the  agitation  of  White 
Slavery  came  up.  I had  to  handle  a great  many  cases  before  it  was 
really  called  White  Slavery,  so  that  I am  quite  conversant  with  it.  I 
have  been  in  Chicago  not  quite  three  years,  though  I _ have  worked  in 
Canada  and  the  southern  states  and  eastern  states  and  in  Michigan;  but 
I have  been  here  only  about  three  years,  and  I have  handled  a good  man3’’ 
hundred  cases  in  connection  with  my  work  in  the  Chicago  Law  and  Order 
League. 

Q.  Do  you  maintain  a home  in  Chicago  for  girls?  A.  No;  I did 
that  years  ago. 

Q.  Would  you  mind  stating  to  the  Committee  what  you  think  is  the 
underlying  cause  of  the  evil,  low  wages  or  domestic  troubles  in  the  home — 
to  what  do  vou  attribute  the  condition,  and  wffiat  would  you  say  would  be 
the  remedy?  A.  That  is  a different  question. 

Q.  I will  change  the  question.  What  do  you  consider  the  cause  of 
the  evil  chiefly?  A.  I think  one  of  the  causes  of  the  evil  is  young  girls 
who  want  to  wear  diamonds  and  wear  fine  clothes,  from  the  standpoint 
of  dress,  and  more  than  she  has  to  do  it  wdth.  The  poor  working  girl 
wants  to  dress  the  same  as  the  millionaire’s  daughter,  and  wants  fine 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


145 


clothes;  and  so  if  a man  comes  up  to  her  and  says,  as  I have  heard 
them  say  in  stores,  “How  much  are  you  getting  a week  here?”  The  man 
will  talk  to  her  and  she  will  stand  and  listen  to  him  if  she  likes  his  ad- 
dress; if  she  does  not,  she  will  say,  “That  is  none  of  your  business,”  and 
shut  him  off.  I have  heard  them  talk  to  good-looking  girls,  and  tell  them 
“I  can  put  you  in  a place  where  you  can  earn  a good  salary,  and  don’t 
have  to  work  so  much.”  I have  known  cases  where  the  girl  has  turned 
away  and  where  the  man  would  come  back  three  days  in  succession  to 
the  department  store,  to  get  hold  of  the  girl,  and  after  he  had  touched  her 
pride,  to  take  her  out  to  dinner  and  get  her  to  drink  something,  and  the 
next  thing  he  began  going  with  her,  and  the  next  thing  she  was  gone. 
Either  he  was  supporting  her  in  a room  or  she  was  in  a room  and  going 
out  for  him,  or  she  was  in  a flat  where  she  paid  so  much  for  her  board 
and  room.  Then  there  are  other  cases.  I am  speaking  now  from  personal 
experience  where  the  girl  has  been  deceived  perhaps  and  doesn’t  know 
where  to  go  or  what  to  do.  I would  be  glad  to  give  the  Committee 
some  illustrations  in  more  refined  form.  I know  one  girl  who  was  sold 
three  times  in  the  city  of  Chicago. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  that  girl  is,  where  we  may  get  her?  A.  I 
can  get  her;  she  is  in  the  city. 

Q.  You  do  not  maintain  her  yourself?  A.  She  is  maintaing  herself. 
When  you  get  them  in  a proper  place,  you  don’t  have  to  maintain  them. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Madam,  do  you  know  positively  that  the  White  Slave  Trade 
exists  in  Chicago,  where  girls  are  sold?  A.  Yes;  I have  one  particular 
case. 

Q.  Anybody  here  in  Chicago  that  you  know?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  get  her  before  the  Committee?  A.  If  she  would 
consent  to  come.  I think  she  would. 

Q.  If  she  doesn’t  wish  it  in  public,  will  you  say  we  might  have  an 
executive  session?  A.  She  was  sold  three  times. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Madam,  there  is  one  question  I would  like  to 
solicit  your  judgment  upon.  What  do  you  think  of  the  whipping  post 
as  a means  of  punishing  men  engaged  in  such  traffic?  A.  I think  it 
would  be  fine. 

SENATOR  TUUL;  Of  what  church  are  you  a minister?  A.  The 
Congregational  Church;  I haven’t  a pastorate  here. 

Q.  But  you  have  had  one?  A.  I am  a regularly  ordained  minister, 
and  have  been  for  years. 

SENATOR  TUUL;  Representative  Miller  is  sitting  here,  and  he 
would  like  to  ask  a few  questions. 

REPRESENTATIVE  MILLER;  I would  like  to  ask  you  whether 
you  have  any  remedy  you  could  suggest?  A.  I have  thought  of  a great 
many  things:  and  I really  believe  it  is  a vexed  problem.  I wouldn’t  like 
to  give  the  Committee  right  off-hand  an  opinion.  It  is  too  serious  to  give 
right  out  without  wording  it  just  right,  but  I think  there  are  some  things 
whereby  it  might  be  a help,  some  ways  in  which  it  might  be  a help, 
but  I would  hardly  know  just  how  to  word  it  so  as  to  give  you  a satisfactory 
answer. 

MR.  FARWELL:  Mrs.  Aldrich  had  quite  an  experience  in  the  red- 
light  district  after  Wayman  shut  it  up,  and  as  to  those  girls,  and  therd 
might  be  something  she  could  tell. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  She  is  going  to  give  us  ail  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  would  be  glad  to  have  you  arrange  your 
data  and  give  us  a list  of  witnesses,  and  would  be  glad  to  have  you  come 
with  the  witnesses  to  protect  them  against  anv  unpleasantness. 

Mrs.  Josephine  Schell’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  JOSEPHINE  SCHELL,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 


146  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Please  state  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  Josephine  Schell. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside?  A.  At  556  East  Thirty-seventh  Street. 

Q.  I take  it  for  granted  you  have  served  in  rescue  work  of  some  kind? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  your  experience?  A.  We  have  many  girls  in  i 
the  New  Future  Institution.  Our  home  has  a two-fold  scope.  We  pro- 
tect women  that  come  to  the  city,  and  those  that  have  no  place  to  go 

to  and  no  one  to  protect  them,  and  also  women  or  girls  that  are  brought 

into  court  perhaps  for  the  first  ofifense  and  in  every  way  we  try  to  protect 
them  and  keep  them  from  going  down,  so  our  work  is  both  preventive  and  j 
curative.  It  perhaps  may  be  some  case  of  larceny  where  the  judge  puts 
them  on  parole  and  they  are  left  to  our  care  and  charge  by  the  probationers 
from  the  Probation  Office. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  underlying  cause  for  this  evil  of  White 
Slavery?  A.  I,  have  cases  that  I have  been  able  to  investigate  oftentimes. 
One  of  the  causes  is  low  wages,  and  I think  that  is  one  of  the  first  causes, 
that  most  of  the  girls  working  are  underpaid,  and  especially  where  girls 

have  to  look  after  themselves,  where  they  have  no  families  or  relatives 

to  live  with,  that  do  not  generally  get  sufficient  to  pay  their  expenses. 

Q.  In  what  lines  of  industry  is  this  insufficiency  of  wages  most  notice- 
able as  far  as  you  know?  A.  The  department  stores  is  one,  and  some 
factories. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  that  the  average  wages  paid  to  the  girls  in 
department  stores  is  sufficient  to  maintain  them?  A.  I don’t  think  it  is. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  the  low  wages  paid  in  the  department  stores 
causes  the  downfall  of  the  girls?  A.  I do;  I know  it. 

Q.  Have  any  of  those  cases  come  under  your  observation?  A.  ^^’e 
have  had  cases. 

Q.  Where  the  girls  directly  attributed  their  condition  to  low  wages?  A. 
To  low  wages. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  on  the  subject  of  what  wages  ought  to  be  paid 
in  order  to  keep  a woman  straight  if  she  wishes  to  keep  straight?  A. 
Well,  no. 

Q.  What  would  you  consider  to  be  starvation  wages?  A.  We  had 
a girl  about  t\j'0  weeks  ago  in  our  home,  and  she  was  offered  three  dol- 
lars a week  and  commission;  and  she  was  put  in  one  line  where  she 
was  to  get  a commission  of  one  per  cent  on  what  she  was  selling,  and 
the  stock  she  was  selling  was  a very  inferior  one,  and  at  that  rate  she 
wouldn’t  make  enough  to  cover  her  expenses. 

Q.  This  salary  this  munificent  firm  offered  her  was  $3  a week?  A. 

$3  a week. 

Q.  Did  she  attempt  to  estimate  what  her  commission  was?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  she  tell  you  what  commission  she  had  earned  in  a week? 

A.  No;  she  did  not  tell  me  very  much,  but  she  could  not  make  much  over, 
and  in  fact  we  maintained  her  at  our  home  during  that  time.  She  couldn’t 
possibly  pay  her  room  and  board  from  what  she  could  make.  I don’t 
think  her  commission  exceeded  three  dollars. 

Q.  You  think  then  that  low  wages  is  one  of  the  underlying  causes 
of  the  evil?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  what  you  think  is  the  remedy  for  this  condi- 
tion. We  are  investigating  the  question  of  selling  girls  and  of  making  it 
a commercial  transaction.  What  remedy  have  you  to  suggest,  if  an}'?  A. 

I haven’t  any  exactly. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  May  I ask  one  question.  Madam,  along  the  line  of  the  question 
of  Senator  Juul?  From  your  observation  and  e.xperience,  what  do  you 
estimate  the  lowest  wage  upon  which  a single  girl  can  live  in  the  city  of 
Chicago  and  live  honestly  and  retain  her  virtue?  A.  The  lowest  wages 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


147 


I should  think  would  be  about  $10  a week.  That  covers  it  very  closely. 

Q.  Then  in  your  judgment  any  amount  less  than  $10  a week  would 
be  contributing  to  the  cause  indirectly  of  White  Slavery?  A.  I think  so. 
That  is  counting  it  very  closely,  putting  it  at  $10. 

Q.  You  think  that  estimate  would  be  light  and  $12  would  be  a more 
reasonable  estimate?  A.  Well,  perhaps  a little  better. 

Q.  That  is,  any  girl  could  live  honestly  and  decently  on  $12  a week? 
A.  I think  she  could;  that  is,  if  she  wasn’t  too  extravagant  in  her  ideas. 

Q.  That  would  remove  one  cause,  that  of  low  wages.  Then  if  she 
went  wrong  it  would  be  because  of  her  innate  desire  to  wear  fine  clothing 
and  imitate  those  in  more  prosperous  circumstances?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  DAILEY. 

SENATOR  DAILEY:  It  is  evident  that  there  are  very  many  good 
ladies  here,  looking  after  girls  and  seeing  that  protection  is  thrown  around 
them,  these  underpaid  girls  who  are  pure  girls,  to  prevent  them  from  falling, 
in  the  city  of  Chicago.  What  protection  or  care  or  solicitude  is  extended 
in  behalf  of  these  girls,  say  a girl  dependent  on  her  own  wages  fpr  sup- 
port, getting  $6,  $7  or  $8  a week,  what  organized  effort  is  there  in  Chi- 
cago to  look  after  those  girls,  watch  them  and  care  for  them,  give  them 
a helping  hand  and  prevent  them  from  falling?  In  other  words,  you  are 
engaged  in  what  you  might  call  protecting  girls  after  they  have  fallen. 
What  prevention  in  the  form  of  organized  effort  is  there  in  Chicago  to 
prevent  these  girls  from  falling? 

THE  WITNESS:  We  have  what  they  call  the  social  clubs  or  homes 
for  working  girls,  where  they  are  taken  in,  and  they  pay  just  a minimum 
price  for  their  room  and  board,  and  have  the  privilege  of  doing  their  own 
laundry,  etc.,  and  I think  many  girls  have  been  protected  from  going  wrong. 

Q.  How  many  institutions  of  that  kind  are  there?  A.  There  are 
very  many.  In  fact,  I don’t  think  there  is  a sufficient  number,  in  accord- 
ance to  the  proportion  of  working  girls  that  really  need  that  kind  of  pro- 
tection. 

Q.  In  other  words  you  feel  that  that  is  a field  of  endeavor  that  has 
not  been  sufficiently  developed  in  Chicago?  A.  It  could  be  enlarged  upon 
very  much. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  after  all  that  the  question  of  wages  has  a great 
deal  to  do  with  the  White  Slave  traffic  or  the  traffic  in  immorality?  A.  Yes; 
I think  the  Social  Settlement  had  done  a great  deal  along  that  line  in 
educating  young  girls  and  women  who  have  not  the  right  homes  and 
influences  and  environments. 

Q.  Have  you  given  any  thought  or  attention  to  the  question  of  the 
preventive  work  in  Chicago?  A.  I did  in  proportion  to  the  work  done. 

Q.  Have  you  given  any  thought  or  attention  to  the  extension  or  the 
enlargement  of  that  work,  as  to  its  purpose  of  watching  and  caring  for 
girls  who  are  earning  starvation  wages,  to  look  after  them  and  take  an 
interest  in  them  before  they  have  fallen?  Have  you  given  any  special 
thought  or  study  as  to  the  best  means  to  enlarge  that  work?  A.  I think 
that  the  idea  of  institutions  or  homes  for  poor  working  girls  is  a very 
splendid  one,  and  I think  it  ought  to  be  broadened  and  there  ought  to  be 
more  of  them. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Madam,  how  many  girls  have  you  had  under  you. 
say  in  the  last  two  or  three  years?  A.  The  last  eight  months  we  had 
150  girls. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  White  Slave  traffic  as  a commercialized 
business  exists  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  I do;  we  have  had  several 
cases  in  our  home. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  case  positively  of  girls  in  Chicago  that  were 
bought  or  sold?  A.  Yes;  we  had  a case  in  our  home.  This  girl  lived 


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in  South  Chicago,  I think  it  was,  and  a young  man  got  hold  of  her,  and 
put  her  in  one  of  these  houses. 

Q.  You  believe  then  as  a fact  that  the  White  Slave  traffic  has  been 
going  on  in  Chicago?  A.  Yes;  I do. 

Q.  This  Commission  was  appointed  especially  for  the  purpose  of 
investigating^  that  matter.  In  your  judgment  you  know  it  to  be  a fact? 
A.  I know  it,  yes. 

Mrs.  Alice  Phillips  Aldrich  Testifies  Further. 

MRS.  ALICE  PHILLIPS  ALDRICH  was  recalled  and  testified  as 
follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  there  anything  else  you  wish  to  say?  A.  I 
know  the  White  Slave  traffic  is  carried  on,  because  I know  of  a case  that 
came  under  my  observation,  the  case  of  a girl  in  Connecticut  that  was 
murdered.  I was  down  in  her  district,  and  found  her  going  out,  and  she 
seemed  very  much  intoxicated,  and  I said  I wished  I could  speak  to  her. 
There  was  a great  big  burly  man  there,  and  he  said,  “Go  on.”  I went 
over  to  speak  to  the  girl  and  talked  with  her  quite  a while.  The  girl 
spoke  to  me.  She  said,  “What  could  you  do  for  me?”  I said,  “I  will 
take  you  to  a place  where  you  will  be  taken  care  of,  and  will  be  helped 
into  a nice  good  life;  and  be  kind  to  you.”  She  said,  “My  God,  that  is 
what  I want.” 

Q.  Madam,  we  want  to  find  out  if  you  know  of  an  organization  exist- 
ing of  that  kind?  A.  I was  telling  you  that  there  must  be  an  organized 
society.  This  girl  was  induced  to  go  away  from  a home.  She  was  born 
there  in  Connecticut.  She  was  taken  out,  and  was  murdered.  So  it  must 
have  been  because  they  thought  she  was  going  to  tell  some  things;  so  there 
must  be  an  organized  force. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  your  own  knowdedge  of  such  an  organization? 
A.  I don’t  know,  but  there  must  be  an  organized  force. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mrs.  Schell,  do  you  know  whether  there  is  an 
organized  industry  in  the  White  Slave  business?  A.  I couldn’t  say  posi- 
tively whether  there  is.  I have  an  idea  there  might  be  one. 

SENATOR  JL^UL:  But  you  don’t  know.  A.  I have  heard  so. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I move  that  we  go  into  executive  session. 

The  motion  was  duly  seconded  and  carried. 

Thereupon  the  Commission  went  into  executive  session,  after  which 
an  adjournment  was  taken  to  Saturday,  March  1,  1913,  at  10  o’clock 

A.  M. 


SESSION  II 


H.  R.  Frank,  a former  resident  of  the  Chicago  levee  district, 
appears  before  the  Committee  and  recounts  personal  observa- 
tions of  white  slavery  transactions. 

Mrs.  Anna  Stevens  of  the  Illinois  Training  School  for  Girls 

at  Geneva  testifies  to  the  reformation  of  A O , 

who,  under  oath,  tells  the  story  of  her  downfall. 

Miss  Virginia  Brooks  of  West  Hammond,  Illinois,  examines 
a witness  (E F ) and  then  reviews  her  experi- 

ences as  a social  worker  among  girl  victims  of  vice.  Testimony  of: 

F L ; 

Mrs.  Mary  Collins,  special  officer  of  the  Juvenile  Court. 

Saturday,  March  1,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 
The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Present:  Lieuten- 
ant-Governor Barratt  O’Hara  (Chairman),  Senators  Niels  Juul,  Ed- 
mond Beall  and  J.  F.  Tossey. 

Whereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

H.  R.  Frank’s  Testimony. 

H.  R.  FRANK,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testi- 
fied as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  State  your  name?  A.  H.  R.  Frank. 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  Twenty-seven  years. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  In  Russia. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Chicago?  A.  About  24  years. 

Q.  State  to  the  Committee  if  you  know  anything  about  the  traffic  in 
females?  A.  I believe  it  exists,  but  at  this  present  time,  how  much  I 
can’t  state. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  you  know  of  it  in  the  past?  A.  In  the  past,  during 
my  time  around  the  levee — 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  was  your  occupation?  A.  I had  an  ice- 
cream parlor  around  the  levee,  and  I used  to  coiue  in  contact  with  them. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  do  you  call  the  levee?  A.  The  red-light  dis- 
trict of  the  City  of  Chicago. 

Q.  You  had  an  ice-cream  parlor?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I had  an  ice-cream 
parlor  in  the  levee,  and  then  I went  to  the  South  Side.  I used  to  go  out 
and  take  orders,  and  1 used  to  see  these  women,  and  they  made  good 
money,  and  I would  see  them  come  down,  black  and  blue. 

Q.  Black  and  blue  from  what?  A.  From  beating,  for  not  giving 
any  money. 

Q.  Are  you  a married  man?  A Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  anything  to  do  with  that  traffic  now  have  you?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  anything  to  do  with  it?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  any  single  instance  of  your  own?  A.  In  the  case 
of  my  own  before  I was  married,  I was  picked  up  on  a charge  of  pandering. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that  case?  A.  I was  arrested,  November  18,  1910, 
in  the  City  of  Chicago,  on  a charge  of  pandering.  I was  sentenced  to  one 
year  and  a thousand  dollar  fine  and  nine  dollars  costs.  I stayed  at  the 
House  of  Correction  until  December  24,  1910,  when  I got  out  on  a writ  of 


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error,  and  stayed  out  two  years  and  some  months,  and  the  case  was  brought 
up  before  the  Appellate  Court,  and  was  sent  back,  and  I took  out  a writ 
of  habeas  corpus,  and  showed  there  was  a flaw  in  my  indictment,  and  1 
was  discharged. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  now?  A.  I am  not  doing  anything.  I w'as 
in  the  business  of  exposing  the  white  slave  traffic  by  pictures  until  they 
put  a ban  on  me. 

Q.  When  you  say  “they,”  whom  do  you  mean?  A.  The  Police  De- 
partment. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  were  making  pictures?  A.  Ex- 
posing the  traffic.  The  first  picture  was  that  of  a traveling  man  who  was 
doing  business  in  a legitimate  way,  who  goes  into  a small  town  and  gets 
acquainted  with  a young  lady,  who  wdshes  to  be  in  a higher  life;  and  they 
leave  the  town  and  go  to  a larger  city.  They  claimed  that  my  pictures 
were  immoral.  If  those  pictures  were  immoral,  the  Board  of  Censorship 
would  not  have  passed  them. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  showed  them  in  the  nickel  shows?  A.  Yes, 
1 showed  them  at  the  theaters. 

Q.  You  showed  these  pictures  of  the  White  Slave  evil  in  the  nickel 

shows?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  showed  places  where  children  had  to  go  by, 

and  showed  how  hard  these  panderers  worked. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  mean  by  “panderer?”  A.  A 
panderer  is  a man  dealing  in  women. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  many  cadets  or  panderers  are  there  in  the 
city  of  Chicago?  A.  At  least  1,500. 

Q.  You  mean  there  are  1,500  men  who  are  selling  women?  A.  A 

cadet  is  not  a man  who  sells  women.  A cadet  is  a man  who  lives  off 

the  earnings  of  the  woman. 

REPRESENTATIVE  MILLER:  Q.  What  is  the  difference  be- 
tween a pimp  and  a cadet?  A.  In  the  rough  they  are  about  the  same; 
and  in  general  there  would  be  no  difference. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  know  of  any  case  where  women  have 
actually  been  sold  by  men  to  a bouse  of  prostitution?  A.  Yes;  and 
the  men  were  convicted  for  it. 

Q.  That  practice  has  been  carried  on?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  practice  known  to  the  police?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  there  many  colored  men  included  in  this  1,500?  A.  I wasn’t 
considering  them  among  the  white;  I am  saying  there  are  about  1,500 
white. 

Q.  How  many  colored  cadets?  You  could  find  at  least  two  or 
three  hundred,  if  not  more. 

Q.  Do  these  colored  cadets  deal  with  white  women?  A.  Some  of 
them;  yes. 

Q.  Largely  or  very  slightly?  A.  Very  slightly.  There  are  certain 
places  where  there  are  colored  women  and  white  women. 

Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  make  to  this  Cornmittee  as  to  a 
remedy?  A.  The  only  remedy  I can  see  is,  with  the  Police  Department’. 
If  they  were  on  the  square  and  would  do  what  is  right. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  the  Police  De- 
partment is  not  on  the  square?  A.  That  is  something  I wouldn’t  want 
to  say  because  I don’t  -want  to  get  in  bad  with  anybod^^  I don’t  want 
to  say  anything  to  get  in  bad.  I know  it  exists  all  over.  If  a man  takes 
a respectable  girl  and  makes  a friend  out  of  her,  in  the  long  run  that 
respectable  girl  will  be  doing  the  same  as  the  others  are  doing. 

Q.  You  have  known  of  such  cases?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say,  if  the  police  were  on  the  square.  There  have  been 
rumors  in  the  levee  that  the  police  sometimes  have  not  been  on  the 
square,  have  there?  A.  There  have.  There  has  been  known  such  a 
thing  as  police  graft. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Gentlemen,  I think  we  should  keep  a little  closer 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


151 


to  statements  of  fact  than  matters  of  opinion,  because  we  will  get  the 
record  full  of  stuff  that  isn’t  germane. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  At  the  same  time,  Senator  Juul,  it  seems  to  me 
that  the  opinions  we  get  m^y  be  of  value  to  us  when  we  go  through  the 
1 record.  ' 

SENATOR  JUUL:  An  opinion  is  always  good  if  any  specific  .case 
is  stated  on  which  the  opinion  can  be  based.  This  gentleman  doesn’t 
want  to  state  any  facts,  but  is  giving  us  a lot  of  opinion,  for  instance,  as 
to  the  inability  of  the  Police  Department  for  the  suppression  of  vice.  If 
he  will  lay  a foundation  for  anything  he  states,  it  would  be  all  right;  but 
he  apparently  refuses  to  do  that. 

REPRESENTATIVE  MILLER:  When  you  were  indicted,  was  there 
any  person  that  furnished  you  with  aid  in  your  defense?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Who  paid  your  lawyers?  A.  My  father  did.  I 
, was  told  at  the  time  of  my  arrest  that  if  I would  be  willing  to  hand  over 
$250  to  a certain  party,  there  would  be  nothing  to  my  case. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  care  about  telling  who  that  certain 
party  is?  A.  Ellis  Marsh,  a saloon-keeper  on  the  West  Side.  A certain 
party  came  up  to  me  and  said:  “Harry,  if  you  can  raise  $250,  bring  it  in, 
and  there  will  be  nothing  to  your  case.’’ 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Who  was  the  party  that  came  up  to  you?  A. 
I didn’t  know  him;  he  was  a stranger.  He  came  up  to  me  and  said  if  I 
could  raise  $250,  there  would  be  nothing  to  my  case.  I spoke  to  Mr. 
Marsh  after  that,  after  I appealed  my  case;  and  he  said  “I  never  heard 
anything  of  it.” 

Q.  Who  was  it  that  told  you  if  you  gave  $250,  there  would  be  nothing 
to  your  case?  A.  The  man  was  a total  stranger  to  me. 

Q.  How  did  he  approach  you?  A.  He  walked  up  to  me  and  said 
“Is  your  name  so  and  so?”*  I said  “Yes.”  He  said  “Have  you  got  a 
case  of  pandering  going  on — coming  up?”  I said  “Why?”  He  said  “If 
you  have,  you  can  beat  it.”  I said  “I  haven’t  done  anything.” 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I know,  Mr.  Witness,  the  Committee  appreciates 
your  being  here  this  morning,  but  we  want  real  information.  You  are 
challenging  the  good  judgment  of  this  Committee.  It  is  inconceivable 
that  a stranger  should  come  up  to  you  and  say  that. 

A O ’s  Testimony. 

A O , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  may  state  your  name?  A.  A ^ — 

1 ° • 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Rockford,  Illinois. 

Q.  Are  you  in  a state  institution  for  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  I am  18  years  old;  I was  18  last  Novem- 
ber. 

Q.  Were  you  committed  from  Rockford  to  the  institution?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  charge  was  brought  against  you  there;  for  what  reason 
j were  you  sent  to  Geneva?  A.  Delinquency. 

Q.  Of  what  did  that  delinquency  consist?  A.  Disobedience  to  my 
parents,  and  bad  company. 

Q.  Had  you  been  led  into  any  immoral  act  by  any  man  in  Rockford? 
A.  No,  sir. 

; Q.  You  had  not?'  A.  Never.  O,  I beg  your  pardon.  I misunder- 
stood you.  I have  been. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  then?  A.  Fifteen  years  old. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  you  tell  the  story  of  your  life  from  the 
time  you  were  fifteen^  years  old?  A.  It  was  in  Gary,  Indiana.  I came 
|!  from  Rockford  to  Chicago  alone. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  in  Chicago?  A.  I went  to  the  Carlisle  Hotel 
on  North  Clark  Street. 


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Q.  You  stayed  there  how  long?  A.  One  day  and  one  night. 

Q.  Tell  us  aljout  what  date  that  was?  A.  The  28th  of  December, 
1912. 

Q.  What  took  place  at  the  Carlisle  Hotel?  A.  Nothing  took  place 
there.  I came  that  evening.  1 came  in  on  Saturday  evening,  and  I went 
to  the  Dearborn  Dance  Hall,  and  I met  this  fellow  at  the  Dearborn  Dance 
Hall. 

Q.  Which  fellow  do  you  mean?  A.  The  fellow  that  took  me  to 
Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Charles  Sansonio. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  address?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  suggest  to  you?  A.  He  asked  me  to  dance,  and  1 
danced  with  him  two  or  three  times,  and  we  went  downstairs  and  got 
some  soft  drinks;  and  he  asked  me  where  1 was  staying,  and  I told  him; 
and  he  asked  me  my  name,  and  I told  him  my  name  was  Stella  Nelson. 

Q.  Were  you  out  at  various  times  with  this  man?  Tell  us  what 
took  place  and  where  you  went?  A.  That  night  1 went  back  and  stayed 
at  the  hotel,  and  the  next  afternoon  at  3 o’clock  1 met  him. 

Q.  By  appointment?  A.  By  appointment,  at  Huron  Street;  and  he 
was  rooming  at  118  Huron  Street.  1 went  to  his  place,  and  he  said  he 
was  going  down  to  the  levee  and  was  working  in  a cafe  down  there, 
and  then  he  was  going  to  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  What  did  you  do?  A.  I went  to  Gary,  Indiana,  with  him  and 
another  fellow. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  other  fellow?  A.  Ben  is  his  first  name,  I 
don’t  know  his  last  name 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  lived?  A.  He  was  staying  in  Chicago; 

he  had  a flat  on  Milwaukee  Avenue.  * 

Q.  You  don’t  know  the  number  of  that  flat?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  took  you  to  Gary,  Indiana?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  bought  you  a ticket?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Both  went  with  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  they  take  you?  A.  They  took  me  there  and  a taxi 
came  up  and  they  put  me  in  the  taxi  and  said  they  were  going  to  a hotel. 
When  we  got  out  the  door  opened,  and  I was  in  this  immoral  resort. 

Q.  Did  they  make  any  arrangements  with  the  landlady  in  j'our 
presence?  A.  Not  in  my  presence. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  any  arrangements  they  made?  A. 
Benny  went  on  ahead  and  made  the  arrangements  with  the  landlady,  and 
Charlie  got  the  taxi-cab. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  arrangements  he  made  with  the  landlady? 
A.  They  told  me  I was  going  there,  and  I went  down  there,  and  they  got 
$15— $14  or  $15. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  From  this  landlady?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JULL:  In  your  presence?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  they  got  that  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  knew  it  was  for  bringing  you  there  they  got  the  monej'? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  woman’s  name?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

•Q.  You  haven’t  given  the  name,  have  you?  A.  No;  it  is  Eva  Allen, 

or  Eva  Collins. 

Q.  Do  you  know  her  address?  A.  Her  adciress  is  929  Jefferson 
Street,  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  I went  there  September 
29,  and  it  was  somewhere  along  in  the  last  of  October,  I don’t  know 
exactly  the  date,  I come  back  to  Chicago. 

Q.  You  were  there  about  one  month?  A.  Yes;  about  one  month. 

Q.  In  that  length  of  time  did  you  see  this  man  that  brought  you 
there — these  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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153 


Q.  They  continued  to  call  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  to  pay  them  any  money  outside  of  this  $15  the 
landlady  gave  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  amount  did  you  pay  them?  A.  Half  of  what  I made. 

Q.  Was  that  the  arrangement  you  made  with  them?  A.  No;  it  was 
turned  in.  The  first  time  I got  my  envelope,  I had  bought  some  things 

I from  a peddler,  and  when  I was  upstairs  there  was  a mistake  made,  and 
the  landlord  and  his  wife  were  in  the  room  where  they  pay  off  the  girls; 
and  he  told  me  I had  no  business  to  open  that,  and  I gave  it  to  him. 

Q.  The  landlord  told  you  you  had  no  business  to  open  your  own 

envelope  until  you  had  handed  it.  to  this  man  to  see  what  was  in  it?  A. 

Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  opened  the  envelope  did  he  take  part  of  it  out?  A.  He 
took  it  all. 

Q.  What  were  you  down  there  for?  A.  Making  money  for  him. 
Q.  How  did  it  strike  you  that  you  were  profiting  by  this?  A.  I 
wasn’t  profiting  by  it  at  all. 

Q.  Couldn’t  you  get  away  from  it?  A.  I didn’t  have  any  money  to 
get  away,  and  he  wouldn’t  give  me  any. 

Q.  Had  they  taken  your  clothes?  A.  No;  not  the  first  time. 

I Q.  Were  you  in  a position  you  could  leave  if  you  wanted  to?  A.  Yes; 

. if  I wanted  to;  but  I had  no  money,  and  they  hadn’t  any  respect  for  any- 

* thing  like  that  in  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  Did  it  ever  strike  you  it  was  a bad  thing  that  you  were  there 
working  for  this  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  continued  to  do  that  for  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  how  you  quit  there  and  how  it  came  you  quit 
there?  A.  Thursday  afternoon  there  was  a drunken  fellow  came  in  there. 
He  was  one  of  these  rough-necks  on  a steamer  on  Lake  Michigan.  He 
grabbed  me  by  the  arm  and  almost  jerked  my  arm  out  of  place,  and  I 
slapped  him.  Then  he  was  going  to  kick  me;  and  another  girl  came  in. 
Then  he  went  over  to  the  other  side,  and  he  came  and  grabbed  me,  and 
I hit  him.  Then  the  landlady  told  me,  if  anything  like  that  occurred 
again  I would  have  to  get  another  house  to  go  to.  The  next  afternoon — 
there  was  an  Italian  girl  there,  and  she  was  taking  things  of  mine,  and  we 
got  into  a conversation;  and  the  landlady  told  us  we  both  could  get 
another  place.  So  I got  dressed,  and  they  told  me  not  to  go,  but  I went 
downstairs  and  asked  for  my  money. 

Q.  How  much  money  was  coming  to  you  at  that  time?  A.  Thirty- 
five  dollars. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  earn  in  the  month  you  were  there?  A.  About 
$250. 

Q.  How  much  of  this  $250  did  this  cadet  get  from  you?  A.  Half, 
and  half  went  to  the  landlord. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Are  you  certain  you  saw  this  man  or  this 
woman  pay  this  man  $15  for  bringing  you  there?  A.  Certainly  I did. 
It  was  Sunday,  and  Monday  morning,  she  handed  him  money  right  in 
front  of  me. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  came  back  to  Chicago  and  went  to  the 
place  where  this  man  roomed?  A.  I went  to  the  landlady.  She  wanted 
me  to  go  back  home.  That  was  the  only  place  I knew.  She  wanted  me 
to  go  back  home.  I told  her  I was  from  New  York,  because  I didn’t 
want  people  to  know  where  I was  from.  She  told  me  to  go  back  home 
and  not  have  anything  to  do  with  him.  Then  she  called  him  out;  and  he 
came  out,  and  I was  there. 

Q.  After  you  came  back  to  the  city  of  Chicago,  how  long  was  it 
when  you  vrere  sent  to  the  state  institution?  A.  I had  been  in  the 
state  institution  before. 

_Q.  When  were  you  returned  to  the  state  institution?  A.  November 
22,  just  a week  after  I was  arrested. 


154  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  were  arrested  shortly  after  you  came  back  to  Chicago?  A. 
About  a month  afterwards;  almost  a month. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Where  were  you  sent  from?  A.  From 
Rockford. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  old  w'ere  you  when  you  were  first  sent? 
A.  16  years  old. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  are  they  treating  you  at  the  state  in- 
stitution? A.  They  are  treating  me  fine  out  there. 

Q.  You  think  you  are  on  the  road  to  become  a good  girl?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  I am  going  to  try.  This  experience  has  settled  me. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name,  madam?  (Addressing  a 
lady  present.)  A.  My  name  is  Mrs.  Anna  Stevens,  of  the  State  Training 
School  for  Girls  at  Geneva,  Illinois.  I know  this  witness  and  she  is  a 
good  girl. 

SENATOR  JUUL  (to  the  witness):  You  got  back  into  old  asso- 
ciations, and  then  didn’t  get  along  at  home?  A.  I got  along  with  my 
parents,  but  my  uncle  I was  paroled  to. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Are  your  father  and  mother  living?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

MRS.  STEVENS:  Then  she  left  and  came  to  Chicago,  and  got  into 
this  trouble.  She  has  never  given  us  anj^  trouble. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  consider  the  State  Training  School  for 
Girls  at  Geneva  is  doing  you  a world  of  food?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I do. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  many  do  you  have  there,  madam?  MRS. 
STEVENS:  A little  over  100. 

Q.  Are  they  sent  to  you  from  all  over  the  state?  A.  From  all  over 
the  state. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

Q.  Miss,  w'here  did  you  go  from  Gary,  Indiana?  A.  Then  he  got 
me  a place  on  21st  and  State  Street,  Chicago,  in  a cafe. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  there?  A.  I was  there  from  Saturday 
night  to  Tuesday;  then  I went  to  22nd  Strret.  The  same  man  owned 
the  place.  I was  there  a week  and  came  back  and  went  to  Gary,  Indiana. 

Q.  You  went  to  Gary  again?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  this  same  house?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  To  another  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  there?  A.  I went  there  M''ednesday 
night  and  came  back  Friday  morning. 

Q.  Did  he  get  any  money  for  taking  you  there  that  time?  A.  No; 
he  tried  to  get  money  from  the  landlady  but  she  wouldn’t  give  him  anj-. 

Q.  After  you  had  had  that  experience  with  this  man,  who  merely 
had  you  for  money-making  purposes,  did  you  leave  Gary  and  come  back 
to  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  go  to  him  again?  A.  I don’t  know  why  I went 
to  him  again. 

Q.  Did  you  know  an3’bodj-  else  in  Chicago,  did  you  have  any  friends 
here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  no  friends  here  at  all?  A.  F(o,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  reason  you  went  to  the  only  place  I suppose  that 
you  knew?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  you  went  there  the  second  time  and  left  there,  then  where 
did  you  go?  A.  WT  came  back  and  went  to  the  landlady,  and  he  had 
been  there  and  got  a room  there,  and  they  asked  for  the  money  back. 
So  I stayed  there,  and  I went  out  on  Clark  Street  and  I met  him.  He 
had  been  looking  for  me. 

Q.  Who  were  “thejG”  A.  I was  with  another  girl,  a girl  I had 
met  on  the  South  Side. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


155 


Q.  Whom  do  you  mean  by  “they?”  A.  Her  and  her  fellow  and 
the  fellow  I was  with. 

Q.  That  is  after  you  came  back  to  Chicago?  A.  Then  there  were 
i two  other  fellows,  this  Benny  and  Bill. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  after  you  came  back  the  second  time? 
A.  I was  only  back  one  day  and  was  arrested  that  night. 

Q.  You  were  arrested  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Your  mother  and  father  are  both  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  mother  was  a good  mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  father  was  a good  father?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  do  you  attribute  your  first  fall?  I take  it  you  had 
I fallen  before  you  left  Rockford?  A.  Yes,  I got  married, 
i Q.  You  were  how  old  when  you  were  married?  A.  IS  years. 

I Q.  You  married  some  one  to  whom  your  father  and  mother  ob- 

t jected?  A.  They  objected  W it. 

Q.  You  ran  away  with  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  your  folks  object  to  him?  A.  Because  he  wasn’t  the 
! right  company,  and  he  didn’t  treat  his  parents  right,  and  he  was  lazy 
and  didn’t  care  to  work. 

Q.  He  was  a Rockford  boy?  A.  He  had  lived  in  Chicago  when  a 
young  man,  and  then  his  folks  went  to  Rockford. 

Q.  You  had  known  him  how  long  before  you  married  him?  A.  Half 
a year. 

Q.  Did  he  after  you  were  married  to  him,  try  to  get  you  to  go  to  a 
house  of  evil  repute,  or  anything  of  that  kind?  A.  No;  I never  did 
anything  like  that  for  him. 

Q.  Did  he  suggest  it?  A.  He  never  suggested  it  to  me,  but  his 
uncle  told  me  afterwards  that  he  took  me  to  Chicago  for  that.  I think 
he  was  scared.  He  never  said  anything  to  me  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  your  husband  doing  during  this  time  you  were  at 
Gary?  A.  He  is  a married  man. 

Q.  You  were  divorced  before  you  came  here?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is 
living  in  Chicago;  at  least  that  is  what  he  said;  I don’t  know  anything 
about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  address?  A.  No;  I know  his  wife,  though, 
is  the  same  kind  of  a woman  as  I was. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Representative  George  A.  Miller  is  present. 

REPRESENTATIVE  MILLER:  I am  very  much  interested  in  this 
subject  of  the  girls,  the  care  of  the  girls.  This  girl  has  very  marked 
characteristics  which  make  for  good;  and  I want  to  know  what  is  the 
future  for  her. 

Q.  Do  you  think  about  the  future  for  yourself,  as  to  the  right  thing 
to  do  to  make  yourself  better?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I do. 

Q.  And  you  will  try  to  do  what  you  think  is  right,  and  try  to  make 
a better  life  for  yourself  and  make  the  future  better  for  yourself?  A.  I 
should  say  I am  going  to  try. 

J M ’s  Testimony. 

J M , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

testified: 

i SENATOR  JUUL:  It  is  expected,  gentlemen  of  the  press,  that  there 
are  no  names  to  go  in  the  papers.  If  you  gentlemen  put  the  names  in 
your  papers,  we  will  simply  ask  for  initials.  We  do  not  want  any  names 
in  any  newspaper  reports. 

Q.  State  your  name?  A.  J M . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  18  years  old. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  I was  born  in  Chicago. 


156 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  went  astray?  You  know  what  I mean 
by  that?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is  about  a year  and  a month. 

Q.  Tell  this  Committee  if  any  man  brought  you  to  any  place  of 
ill-fame  in  order  to  make  money  out  of  you  in  such  place?  A.  The  per- 
son that  I was  up  against  was  running  the  Exchange  Hotel. 

Q.  Give  us  the  name  of  that  person?  A.  Mr.  Thomas  Newbold. 

Q.  Where  was  Thomas  Newbold’s  place?  A.  Exchange  Hotel. 

Q.  Where  was  that?  A.  On  Van  Buren  Street;  it  is  between  State 
Street  and  Wabash  Avenue. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  be  acquainted  with  Mr.  Newbold;  how 
did  you  come  to  go  there?  A.  I didn’t  know  how  it  was.  A private 
detective  took  me  there. 

Q.  What  was  his  object  in  taking  you  to  that  hotel?  A.  I don’t 
know. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you  was  his  object?  A.  He  asked  me  to  go 
to  the  hotel;  I didn’t  know  what  he  wanted,  so  I went  up  there  with  him. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  happened.  A.  We  stayed  all  night  and  left  the 
next  morning. 

Q.  Then  what?  A.  Then  we  went  to  live  on  Monroe  Street. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Are  you  positive  he  is  a detective?  A.  He 
said  he  was.  His  friend  lived  near  my  sister  at  the  time,  and  introduced 
me  to  him,  and  I got  acquainted  with  him  in  that  way. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Did  you  go  to  live  there?  A.  We  went  to 
the  Cole  Hotel. 

Q.  Did  he  support  you  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  paid  your  hotel  bills  and  your  board?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  We  remained  there  about 
a week. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  go?  A.  Then  he  was  sent  out  of  Chicago 
to  St.  Louis,  and  I stayed  in  Chicago. 

Q.  How  did  you  make  your  living,  staying  in  Chicago.  A.  Hustling 
on  the  street. 

Q.  Did  any  man  at  any  time  attempt  to  place  you  in  a house  of 
prostitution,  in  order  that  he  might  profit  by  it?  A.  Several  men  have 
broached  the  subject,  but  I told  them  there  was  nothing  to  it  because  I 
wasn’t  going  to  make  a tool  out  of  myself  for  anybody. 

Q.  Did  anyone  ever  place  j^ou  in  any  place  and  get  part  of  yovr 
earnings?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  at  Geneva  now,  are  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  lead  that  life  before  you  were  sent  to  Geneva? 
A.  From  the  middle  of  January  to  the  26th  of  June. 

Q.  January,  1912?  A.  Yes,  sir.  ' 

Q.  Until  the  26th  of  June,  1912?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  happened?  A.  Then  I was  sent  back  to  Geneva. 

Q.  Had  you  been  to  Geneva  before?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  paroled?  A.  Yes,  sir,  paroled  to  my  sister. 

Q.  When  were  you  first  sent  to  Geneva?  A.  June  28,  1908. 

Q.  In  1908  you  were  about  how  old?  A.  Thirteen  years. 

Q.  What  had  happened  in  1908  when  you  were  sent  to  Geneva?  A.  I 
wouldn’t  go  to  school;  and  one  of  mj^  girl  chums  was  a bad  girl,  and  a 
party  had  a horse  and  buggy,  and  we  put  it  in  the  barn  to  take  care  of  it, 
and  the  next  day  we  went  out  riding  all  day  and  I stayed  out  of  school. 
My  father  didn’t  want  me  to  go  with  this  girl;  but  I didn’t  see  anything 
wrong. 

Q.  Who  brought  you  into  court  and  had  you  committed?  A.  !\Iy 
father  went  to  the  police  station. 

Q.  Then  you  were  sent  to  Geneva?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  were  paroled?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I was  paroled  to  my 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


157 


sister. 

Q.  Then  you  met  this  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Is  your  mother  living?  A.  No,  sir;  my  mother  is 
dead. 

Q.  You  have  a stepmother?  A Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  sisters  older  than  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  under  the  care  of  your  older  sister?  A.  Yes,  .sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  mother  you  knew?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  you  ever  work  in  a store  in  Chicago?  A., 
Yes,  sir;  I worked  near  her  home. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  a week?  A.  I got  five  dollars  a week. 

Q.  What  did  you  ,pay  for  your  board?  A.  I gave  it  all  to  my 
sister,  and  she  paid  my  expenses. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  think  you  could  live  on  and  live 
an  honest  and  straightforward  life,  what  do  you  think  it  would  cost  you 
to  pay  your  board  and  other  expenses?  A.  It  would  take  at  least  $12 
a week  to  live  riglit. 

O.  Do  you  think  if  you  were  getting  that  much  you  could  live  a 
good  straight  life?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Suppose  you  were  getting  $5  a week  and  had  to 
pay  for  everything,  what  would  you  do?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  reason  I am  asking  these  questions  is  that 
there  is  a bill  to  fix  the  minimum  wages  at  $12  a week.  I haven’t  read 
the  bill,  but  I’m  beginning  to  think  it  must  be  a pretty  good  measure. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  When  you  were  hustling,  you  met  quite  a number 
of  other  girls  hustling,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  to  know  them  pretty  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  any  of  those  girls  former  clerks  in  our  big  stores,  that  is, 
did  you  meet  girls  who  said  they  had  taken  up  that  life  because  they 
couldn’t  make  a living  and  because  they  were  paid  starvation  wages?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think.  Governor,  it  would  be  an  excellent  idea 
to  get  some  of  the  employees  of  certain  of  the  big  stores  in  Chicago,  and 
have  them  subpoenaed  and  brought  before  this  commission.  There  is 
no  use  beginning  at  the  top  and  nibbling  off  the  top,  but  I think  it  better 
to  devote  a w’eek  to  that  kind  of  work. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I think  that  is  a good  suggestion,  and  in  com- 
pliance with  the  request,  the  chairman  will  authorize  our  investigator 
to  subpoena  some  of  the  large  employers  who  are  charged  with  paying 
small  wages,  and  have  them  brought  before  this  body. 

SENATOR  JUUL  (To  the  Witness):  How  are  you  getting  along  at 
the  state  institution?  A.  I am  getting  along  fine. 

Q.  What  was  the  cause  of  your  downfall — because  you  wanted  better 
clothes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  everything  you  can  to  be  a good  girl  and  lead 
a good  life,  and  you  will  turn  out  all  right;  don’t  let  them  lead  you  astray 
again. 

E F ’s  Testimony. 

E F , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testi- 

fied as  follows: 

EXAMINED  BY  SENATOR  JUUL  AND  MISS  VIRGINIA  BROOKS. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  E F . 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Roselawn,  Indiana. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-two  years  old. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Illinois?  A.  About  6 years. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Juul,  I will  suggest,  if  agreeable  to 


158 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


you  and  the  other  members  of  the  Committee,  that  this  witness  be 
examined  by  Miss  Virginia  Brooks,  who  accompanied  her? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Very  well.  Governor. 

MISS  VIRGINIA  BROOKS:  Will  you  tell  about  the  time  you  were 
in  Roselawn  and  before  you  went  to  West  Hammond,  where  you  met 
Henry  Foss?  A.  I had  been  living  on  Indiana  Avenue  in  Chicago,  and 
went  home.  It  was  in  May  or  June,  1912.  I was  in  the  river,  fishing  at 
Water  Valley.  I was  with  a school  chum,  Johnny  Fluellej'. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Where  did  he  live?  A.  He  lived  at  Water  Valley, 
Indiana,  with  his  mother. 

MISS  BROOKS:  Did  some  one  come  up  there?  A.  An  automobile 
came  up,  and  I wasn’t  dressed  so  I cared  to  have  any  people  see  me,  so 
1 started  to  get  behind  the  trees. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  were  bathing  in  the  river?  A.  No;  we 
started  to  go  fishing;  and  we  were  at  the  edge  of  the  river,  and  the  machine 
came  up  and  stopped,  and  a fellow  jumped  out  of  the  machine  and  came 
over  to  where  we  were,  and  told  me  he  knew  me,  and  asked  me  if  I 
wouldn’t  take  a ride,  and  he  would  bring  me  right  back.  I told  him,  No,  I 
couldn’t,  1 didn’t  have  any  coat  and  1 wasn’t  dressed  just  right  an3'way. 
He  begged  of  me  to  go,  and  I asked  my  friend,  and  there  was  some  more 
friends  of  mine  there  where  we  were  standing,  and  I asked  them  if  I should 
go,  and  they  told  me  sure,  to  go  ahead.  He  said  he  would  bring  me  right 
back.  He  said  he  would  only  take  me  a little  w'ays  and  be  gone  half  an  hour; 
and  he  would  take  me  right  home.  So  I got  into  the  machine,  and  they 
drove  a little  way,  and  there  were  three  other  men  in  the  machine;  and 
he  pushed  me  down  on  the  seat,  and  after  we  got  to  the  next  little  village, 
Shelby — 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Shelby  is  also  in  Indiana?  A.  Yes;  two  little 
towns  right  close  together;  they  are  not  half  a mile  apart.  He  pushed  me 
under  the  seat.  I thought  it  was  just  because  they  didn’t  want  anybody 
to  see  me,  because  I didn’t  care  to  have  anybody  see  me.  I had  on  an 
old  straw  hat.  He  said  one  of  the  fellows  was  married,  and  his  wife 
lived  at  Shelby. 

Q.  He  tried  to  hide  you  in  the  automobile?  A.  Yes. 

MISS  BROOKS:  Did  you  go  to  Hammond  after  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  right  to  Henry  Foss’  place?  A.  Yes;  we  went  to  his 
place;  the  machine  took  me  there. 

MISS  BROOKS:  That  is  on  Plummer  Avenue  in  West  Hammond, 
121  Plummer  Avenue,  West  Hammond,  Illinois. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  She  was  taken  out  of  Indiana  and  brought  to 
Illinois? 

MISS  BROOKS:  Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  want  you  to  stay  there  that  night?  A.  Yes;  he  tried 
to  get  me  to  stay  there.  I didn’t  have  an3'  mone3'  and  no  coat. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Tell  us  what  inducements  he  offered,  what  was  the 
manner  he  pursued  to  have  you  stay  there?  A.  He  told  me  I wouldn’t 
have  to  be  like  the  rest  of  the  girls;  that  he  was  going  to  fire  the  landlady 
he  had,  and  I could  have  the  house. 

Q.  Who  was  it  that  said  that?  A.  Henr3'  Foss. 

Q.  That  was  the  landlord  of  the  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  offered  that  inducement  to  3'ou  to  become  the  landlad3-?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  He  said  he  would  pay  me  $15  a week,  and  all  I would  have  to 
do  would  be  to  look  after  the  girls. 

MISS  BROOKS:  Did  you  stay  there  that  night?  A.  No;  I went  back 
to  my  place  in  Chicago  on  Indiana  Avenue,  and  I had  his  coat  on;  and 
my  clothes  were  all  in  Indiana. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  you  have  to  run  awa3-  or  did  3-ou  go  will- 
ingly? A.  No;  I had  to  sneak  out  from  the  place.  I had  to  tell  a lie 
and  I told  them  I was  cold.  I was  all  wet  as  it  rained.  I told  him  I was 


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159 


just  going  to  the  restaurant  to  get  something  to  eat.  He  Avouldn’t  give 
me  any  money,  just  enough  to  eat  with. 

MISS  BROOKS:  You  finally  got  away  and  went  over  to  Hammond? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  from  there  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  go  back  from  Chicago?  A.  Yes;  I went  back  to  take 
his  coat  to  him.  I took  the  train  to  Hammond.  I thought  I would  take 
his  coat  to  him.  That  is  when  he  enticed  me  to  stay  there. 

Q.  Then  he  prevailed  on  you  to  stay  there?  A.  Yes.  I stayed 
that  night,  and  that  afternoon  I was  to  go  home  and  get  my  clothes. 
All  my  clothes  were  at  this  friend’s  house  where  I had  been  staying,  and 
I had  to  get  them.  I spent  the  night  there  and  come  back  the  next 

morning.  He  said  he  would  send  and  get  my  clothes  for  me.  I didn’t 

have  very  much  money.  He  bought  me  a few  little  things  and  coaxed  me  to 
stay.  He  said  I wouldn’t  have  to  do  nothing,  and  he  fired  the  house- 
keeper. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  To  install  you  in  her  position?  A.  Yes;  and 
after  that  he  wanted  me  to  do  the  same  as  the  rest  of  them  did. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there  the  second  time  when  you  came 

back?  A.  I couldn’t  say  how  long,  about  six  weeks. 

Q.  They  used  you  just  the  same  as  the  other  girls  in  the  place?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  any  time  anybody  would  come  in  he  would  always  call  me 
from  his  room  and  say  this  was  a friend  of  his,  and  wouldn’t  have  any- 
thing to  do  with  any  of  the  other  girls;  and  I would  go  with  them. 

Q.  What  this  Committee  is  anxious  to  find  out  is,  did  you  have  to 
share  your  earnings  with  any  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  man  come  back  to  this  place  in  Indiana  to  collect  part 
of  your  earnings?  A.  Mr.  Foss  took  my  earnings. 

Q.  There  was  a man  that  brought  you  there  in  an  automobile?  A. 
That  was  Mr.  Foss. 

Q.  That  was  Mr.  Foss  that  drove  up  to  the  river  there  and  brought 
you  there?  A.  Yes  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  pay  you  whatever  it  was  you  earned?  A.  We  were  sup- 
posed to  give  half  of  what  we  made.  He  kept  all  of  the  money  and  never 
paid  me  any  money.  He  said  he  was  going  to  keep  it  for  me. 

Q.  You  said  you  were  in  that  institution  for  a month?  A.  A little 
over  a month. 

Q.  Did  you  have  to  go  out  of  the  house  to  eat?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  ate  in  the  house?  A.  Yes;  we  had  to  pay  our  board,  though. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  pay?  A.  Each  girl  had  to  pay  a dollar  a week. 
This  dollar  a week  we  paid  made  the  expenses  of  the  table. 

Q.  You  have  quit  that  life?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  quit  out  there? 

MISS  BROOKS:  It  was  after  the  Messmate  murder,  and  Mr.  Foss 
drove  them  away. 

Q.  She  left  them  and  quit  and  came  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes;  she  is 
' trying  to  lead  a clean  life. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  This  murder  was  while  she  was  in  the  house? 
A.  Well,  he  died  from  the  efifects;  he  was  taken  to  the  hospital,  and  the 
i;  same  day  he  drove  her  away.  He  didn’t  want  her  to  wait  for  the  ambulance. 

He  threw  her  SO  cents  and  said  “Get  across  the  state-line,  if  the  authorities 
‘ find  you  here,  it  will  make  it  worse  for  me,  so  keep  out  of  here  entirely.’’ 

THE  WITNESS:  I didn’t  even  get  my  clothes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  He  gave  you  50  cents?  A.  Yes;  and  told  me  to 
get  out  of  town. 

i SENATOR  BEALL:  Are  you  working  anywhere  nov/?  A.  I have 
I been  sick,  for  the  last  four  weeks. 

Q.  Have  you  been  working?  A.  I have  been  helping  the  landlady  for 
my  room  and  boara. 


160  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
Miss  Virginia  Brooks’  Testimony. 

MISS  VIRGINIA  BROOKS,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  State  your  name?  A.  Virginia  Brooks. 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside?  A.  At  26  155th  Place,  West  Hammond, 
Illinois. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Miss  Brooks,  I think  I will  ask  you  to  state  to 
this  Committee  in  a 10-minutes’  talk  what  you  know  about  the  conditions 
in  West  Hammond  or  around  there,  such  conditions  as  have  a bearing 
upon  the  sale  and  barter  of  women.  The  subject  matter  we  are  especially 
investigating  is  whether  or  not  men  are  profiting  by  the  sale  of  women. 
Just  proceed,  please. 

MISS  BROOKS:  The  first  time  I ever  became  interested  in  this 
matter  in  West  Hammond  was  through  Mr.  John  Betzner  on  Wilcox 
Avenue,  in  Hammond.  He  said  his  daughter  Lucille  had  been  led  from 
home,  with  a promise  of  work.  There  was  a Mrs.  Forsythe  and  Mrs. 
Cherry,  who  now  live  on  the  state  line;  that  time  they  lived  right  in  Indiana. 
They  were  cooking  for  Mr.  Foss  and  Mr.  Moore,  two  of  the  dive-keepers, 
and  they  persuaded  this  Lucille  Betzner  to  go  across  the  state-line  into 
Illinois  and  come  over  there  as  an  inmate  in  Mr.  Foss’  resort.  That  is 
the  first  time  it  was  called  to  my  attention.  He  asked  me  to  get  her  out 
and  I appealed  to  the  federal  court.  They  take  girls  and  bring  them 
across  the  state-line,  and  they  brought  her  across  the  line  and  put  her 
in  that  place,  and  she  couldn’t  do  anything.  The  next  case  that  came  up 
was  that  of  Esther  Harrison.  There  was  a man  in  East  Chicago,  Indiana, 
and  he  is  said  to  be  Cornelius  Moore’s  procurer  in  East  Chicago,  and  they 
get  girls  and  bring  them  to  Hammond  and  West  Hammond.  This  man 
came  across  and  placed  Esther  Harrison  in  Foss’  dive,  and  then  Esther 
Harrison  died  there,  and  they  refused  to  pay  money  to  bury  her.  The  next 
case  that  came  up  was  that  of  two  young  girls,  who  were  brought  there, 
and  I asked  the  police  to  go  down  there  with  me.  Mr.  Moore  was  very 
much  excited  and  he  said  the  girls  would  have  to  stay  there,  and  work. 
He  brought  them  over  from  Des  Moines,  Iowa,  and  paid  $75,  and  they 
had  to  stay  to  work  it  out.  He  brought  them  over  through  a booking 
agent  at  Des  Moines,  Iowa. 

Q.  Did  he  state  who  this  booking  agent  was?  A.  He  didn’t  state 
his  name,  but  he  said  the  booking  agent  was  in  Des  Moines,  Iowa.  These 
girls  came  there  and  were  staying  at  Mr.  Foss’s. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  They  were  brought  there  from  Des  Moines, 
Iowa,  did  you  say?  A.  Yes,  to  West  Hammond.  They  came  to  me  to 
get  their  trunks.  Mr.  Foss  told  them  they  couldn’t  have  them,  that  they 
were  to  work  there. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Coan,  get  those  two  girls.  Will  you  give 
the  names  of  those  girls? 

MISS  BROOKS:  I have  a list  of  them  and  will  furnish  them.  There 
was  another  girl  brought  in  Hammond  by  the  name  of  Anglin.  Her  father 
is  Marvin  Anglin.  I received  several  letters  from  him  which  I can  furnish. 
They  are  brought  from  East  Chicago  over  to  West  Hammond  across  the 
state-line. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  that  such  a wrong  exists? 
A.  Only  inasmuch  as  the  girls  have  been  brought  to  us,  and  we  have 
come  in  close  contact  with  them. 

Q.  There  must  be  a source  of  supply?  A.  The  source  of  supply  is 
East  Chicago  and  across  the  line. 

Q.  You  know.  Miss  Brooks,  that  would  be  no  protection  as  far  as 
the  federal  authorities  are  concerned. 

. MISS  BROOKS:  If  they  walk  across  you  can’t  do  anything  under 
the  Mann  Act.  As  I stated  before,  in  the  case  of  Lucille  Betzner,  we 
prosecuted  the  case,  but  the  Court  decided  that  it  was  not  a violation  of 


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161 


the  Mann  Act,  as  the  girl  walked  across  the  state-line;  and  was  not  taken 
by  a public  carriage. 

Q.  If  girls  are  brought  across  the  state-line  into  the  state  of  Illinois, 
for  immoral  purposes,  we  have  a law  here,  we  have  a pandering  law? 

A.  Yes.  There  must  be  a clique.  In  West  Hammond,  there  is  Cornelius 

Tolty  and  Cynthia  Lump  at  20  State  Street,  West  Hammond,  Illinois. 
This  Cynthia  Lump  is  all  the  time  on  the  train  between  Chicago  and 
iWest  Hammond,  with  young  girls  that  don’t  look  to  be  over  13  or  14 
Tjyears  old;  and  the  people  down  there  talk  very  freely  about  it.  They 
(have  never  done  anything  to  find  out  where  she  is  getting  these  girls. 
Id  jbut  she  takes  them  to  this  dive  in  West  Hammond,  Illinois. 

DS  j THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  dive  is  that?  A.  That  is  Tolty’s  dive. 
]j  There  is  a Mrs.  Leber  in  West  Hammond,  who  will  testify,  Mrs.  Henry 
ly  j Leber. 

1''  SENATOR  JUUL:  She  is  in  the  state  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j!  SENATOR  JUUL:  We  had  better  bring  Mrs.  Henry  Leber  in  before 

lii  ithe  Committee  at  the  next  session. 

“'f  MISS  BROOKS:  Her  address  is  West  Hammond,  Illinois;  1200  State 
® iiStreet  will  get  her. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Can  you  get  Mrs.  Henry  Leber  before  this  Com- 
'?"mittee  at  this  time?  A.  I don’t  think  I could  get  her  at  this  time, 
jj  DR.  QUALE:  This  woman  that  is  taking  these  girls  to  Chicago,  do 
|j  you  think  it  would  be  likely  they  could  get  her?  A.  Yes;  I certainly  do. 
Ill  :1  believe  it  would  be  easy  to  catch  her  if  a good  detective  were  put  on 
™ the  case. 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Have  you  had  any  aid  from  any  of  the  authori- 
ties in  Illinois  in  that  work?  A.  No;  it  has  been  impossible  to  get  it. 
There  is  a girl  who  is  a telephone  operator  there,  called  Lillie,  and  she 
has  given  us  information  of  things  over  the  ’phone.  We  are  right  on  the 
state-line.  Then  I went  to  the  State’s  Attorney’s  office  with  these  different 
cases.  Of  course  that  was  under  the  other  administration,  and  we  were 
anable  to  do  anything.  The  assistant  there  was  acquainted  with  the  Street 
Commissioner,  and  he  would  give  him  information,  and  we  were  unable 
o do  anything. 

Q.  You  know  that?  A.  I know  it  through  Mr.  Burres,  the  attorney; 
he  told  us  about  it. 

Q.  Of  your  own  knowledge  do  you  know  it?  A.  The  only  thing  I 
ji^now  is,  from  Mr.  Burres,  who  is  a respectable  attorney, 
ii  Q.  You  have  had  in  your  own  life  experience  enough  to  know  the 
difference  in  value  between  what  you  yourself  know  and  what  somebody 
las  told  you?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  we  are  particularly  interested  in  in  a wit- 
less of  your  character,  is  to  find  out  what  you  know.  Then  we  would  get 
iji  foundation  to  build  on. 

’ MISS  BROOKS:  In  a question  of  vice  of  this  kind,  my  only  object  is 
;o  see  that  right  is  done,  and  that  the  law  is  in  force. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  the  question  before  us,  as  to  what  you 
:know  from  coming  in  contact  with  girls  that  have  fallen  and  gone  astray. 
Lj  MISS  BROOKS:  Yes:  I understand. 

. Q.  What  would  you  say  was  the  underlying  cause  of  this  evil?  A.  I 
i’hink  there  are  two  things  especially.  I think  the  first  thing  is  the  improper 
iconditions  at  home.  If  they  do  not  have  proper  accommodations  at  home, 
|f;he  girls  will  go  out  to  the  dance-halls  and  fall  into  bad  company.  I 
|i:hink  that  is  an  important  matter.  I think  another  thing  is  the  question 
bf  wages.  I don’t  think  they  get  enough  to  live  on. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  wage  question?  A.  I think  the 
juestion  of  wages  is  perfectly  terrible.  There  are  girls  working  out  there 
or  $4.50  a week  at  the  Conkey  Bindery  plant. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  their  wages  are  there?  A.  About  $4.50  a week, 
Vlr.  Henderson  told  me.  They  have  the  cards,  showing  what  the  girls  earn. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Is  that  a union  or  non-union  establishment?  A. 
think  it  is  non-union. 


162  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Is  Mr.  Conkey’s  place  in  Illinois?  A.  No;  it 
is  in  Indiana. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  You  think  it  is  a non-union  establishment?  A. 

Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Does  Mr.  Conkey  maintain  his  plant  in  Ham- 
mond, Indiana?  A.  Yes;  girls  come  from  Illinois  to  work  there. 

Q.  Where  does  Mr.  Conkey  live?  A.  He  lives  in  Hammond,  Indiana, 
and  his  office  is  in  Chicago.  I 

Q.  You  say  from  information  that  you  obtained,  that  the  wages  oi 
the  average  girl  out  there  is  $4.50  to  $5  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  get  no  board  or  lunch  or  anything  like  that?  A.  No;  the 
girls  told  me  they  have  a little  cafeteria  there,  but  it  costs  them  more 
to  buy  their  food  there  than  it  would  downtown. 

Q.  In  other  words  the  cafeteria  is  run  for  profit?  A.  Probabl3'. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  What  is  the  general  character  of  those  girlj 
as  far  as  you  know?  A.  The  majority  of  them  are  Polish  girls  who  live 
at  home  under  poor  conditions  which  causes  the  same  trouble  as  thej 
go  to  the  dance-halls. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  from  your  observation  and  expe- 
rience, Miss  Brooks,  there  is  such  a thing  as  White  Slavery?  A.  I air. 
quite  sure  there  is. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  newspaper  report^  are  exaggerated  or  under- 
stated? A.  1 wouldn’t  like  to  state. 

Q.  That  would  be  merely  your  judgment?  A.  I think  all  things  ir 
the  press  are  fixed  to  read  well  and  look  well,  and  also  to  help  along  a 
little  bit. 

Q.  Take  in  your  town,  the  town  you  have  labored  so  hard  to  redeem 
and  in  which  you  have  done  such  splendid  work,  work  which  challenges 
the  admiration  of  the  entire  countrjq  what  remedy  would  you  suggest; 
You  would  suggest  perhaps  the  enforcement  of  the  law  rather  than  th« 
making  of  new  law?  A.  I think  I would. 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  Wh^-  would  jmu  think  the  whipping 
post  would  not  act  as  a deterrent? 

MISS  BROOKS:  I don’t  know;  it  seems  to  me  as  soon  as  they  go 
over  if  they  would  start  up  again,  after  they  got  over  the  effects  of  th« 
whipping.  It  seems  to  me  it  would  be  going  backward  instead  of  forward 
As  soon  as  they  got  over  the  pain  from  the  whipping,  they  would  go  righ 
back  into  the  old  life  again.  I favor,  instead,  the  rigid  enforcement  of  thi 
law.  I would  like  to  see  the  cheap  hotels  cleaned  out.  In  my  opinion 
however,  economic  conditions  are  largeh^  to  blame,  and  you  should  remove 
the  cause  of  the  trouble. 

Q.  Wouldn’t  you  agree  with  me  that  such  phj-sical  castigation  woulc 
act  as  a deterrent?  A.  No;  I don’t  believe  it  would 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  You  think  the  whipping  post  itself  would  no 
have  the  desired  effect?  A.  I don’t  know;  the  whipping  post  does  no 
appeal  to  me.  It  is  too  much  like  going  backwards  rather  than  forwards 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  You  know  that  in  England  the  whip 
ping  post  has  been  in  use  for  some  time  as  to  the  White  Slave  traffic 
and  England  is  not  a backward  nation,  and  is  not  inclined  to  go  back 
wards  towards  barbarism,  and  there  has  been  a bill  introduced  into  th' 
Illinois  legislature  for  the  establishment  of  a whipping  post  for  this  kinc 
of  an  offense;  and  I am  inclined  to  think  it  would  meet  the  difficult}-. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Doctor,  the  witness  has  ruled  against  a-ou.  (T< 
the  witness.)  You  think  the  economic  condition  is  the  root  of  the  eHl 
A.  Indeed  I do — pure  and  simple. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  girls  go  astraj-  simph-  for  the  reason  tha 
they  want  to  do  so,  do  jmu?  A.  No;  I heard  a girl  sa}-  one  time  tha 
she  couldn’t  get  along  on  what  she  made,  and  she  had  to  do  something 

Q.  What  do  you  think  should  be  the  minimum  wage  of  women  t' 
live  under  proper  conditions?  A.  I would  like  to  see  $12  a week  fo 
every  girl  that  works. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


163 


Q.  Would  you  say  that  ought  to  be  the  minimum?  A.  I think  so, 
or  at  least  $10. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  women  and  girls  who  are  earning 
these  low  wages?  A.  Yes;  some  of  them  earn  as  low  as  $5,  $6  and  $7 
a week. 

Q.  Do  you  know  this  of  your  own  knowledge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think  we  have  your  ideas  on  the  subject.  Miss 
Brooks: 

MISS  BROOKS:  If  there  is  anything  I can  do,  I will  be  glad  to 
do  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Miss  Brooks,  we  are  very  much  obliged  to  you 
and  certainly  appreciate  your  cooperation. 

F L ’s  Testimony.  • 

F L , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  F L . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  18  years  of  age. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Chicago,  Illinois. 

Q.  Where  are  you  now?  A.  In  the  House  of  the  Good  Shepherd. 

Q.  From  what  court  were  you  committed  to  the  House  of  the  Good 
Shepherd?  A.  From  the  Juvenile  Court. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been,  about  what  date?  A.  August  23rd. 

Q.  What  for?  A.  Being  in  a disorderly  house. 

Q.  What  was  the  address  of  that  house?  A.  2033  Armour  Avenue. 

Q.  Who  induced  you  to  go  there?  A.  Nobody. 

Q.  Tell  us  how  you  came  to  select  that  house  of  all  the  houses  in 
Chicago,  to  go  to?  A.  I went  to  a dance  one  evening,  and  was  standing 
in  a crowd  and  they  were  talking  about  disorderly  places,  and  I was  out 
of  a position  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  long  ago  is  that?  A.  That  was  about  9 months  ago. 

Q.  You  were  out  of  a position?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Before  that  what  were  you  doing?  A.  I was  a tag  stringer  at 
the  International  Tag  Company. 

Q.  Tags  to  tie  on  goods?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  were  you  earning  there?  A.  I was  earning  $5  a week. 

Q.  Did  you  get  your  board  in  addition  to  the  $5?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  to  make  your  living  out  of  this  $5?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  live  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  your  father  employed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  your  brothers  or  sisters  employed?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  the  only  one  working  besides  your  father?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

■Q.  You  got  out  of  employment  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  out  of  employment?  A.  I just  quit  that 
Friday,  and  this  was  on  Saturday  night. 

Q.  When  you  quit  how  much  money  had  you  saved  up  out  of  your 
$5  a week  wages?  A.  I didn’t  have  anything. 

Q.  Didn’t  have  a cent?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  felt  you  had  to  have  some  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  told  you  about  this  disorderly  place?  A.  Nobody  told  me. 
I was  standing  in  the  middle  of  the  floor  in  the  crowd  in  the  Colonial 
dance-hall  on  North  Clark  Street  and  I heard  someone  talking  about  it. 

Q.  You  went  to  the  place  on  your  own  account?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  arrangement  did  you  make  with  the  landlady?  A.  This 


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seemed  to  be  the  first  place  I come  to.  I didn’t  know  whether  it  was  a 
disorderly  house  or  what  it  was. 

Q.  You  found  what  you  were  looking  for?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I didn’t 
ask  anybody  anything.  A man  named  Sydney  met  me  at  the  door  and 
asked  me  in.  I told  him  I wanted  a position.  He  said  I should  sit  down; 
so  I sat  down  on  the  hall-tree.  He  said  “Wait  here,  until  I call  the 
bookers.”  I didn’t  know  what  he  meant,  but  he  told  me  they  were  detec- 
tives, and  he  called  Mr.  Howland  Ryan. 

Q.  From  the  Detective  Department?  A.  Yes,  sir;  the  22nd  Street 
station. 

Q.  And  did  they  book  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  they  do  when  they  booked  you?  A.  He  asked  me 
where  I was  born,  and  I told  him;  and  he  asked  if  I ever  hustled,  and 
I told  him  I did,  and  I told  him  I was  22  years  old. 

Q.  When  you  said,  you  were  22  years  old  did  you  tell  the  truth?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  started  in  this  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  to  pay  any  of  your  earnings  to  any  one  on  the  out- 
side? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  kept  all  your  earnings?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there?  A.  Two  weeks. 

Q.  ‘How  much  money  did  you  have  when  you  left?  A.  I spent  it 
every  week.  I bought  my  clothes,  and  paid  for  my  board  and  my  laundry. 

Q.  So,  between  working  there  and  working  in  the  other  place,  you 
were  not  much  better  off?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  worse  off?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  wore  better  clothes  and  had  better  food?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  much  money  did  you  earn  a week?  A. 
The  first  week  I made  $35  and  the  second  week  I made  $52. 

Q.  You  gave  the  landlady  half  of  the  money?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I gave 
her  half  of  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Was  that  your  share  of  what  you  earned?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  $35  for  me  and  $35  for  the  landlady. 

Q.  What  caused  you  to  leave  there?  A.  A man  come  in  there  that 
knew  me,  one  of  our  neighbors,  and  he  told  my  mother  where  I was, 
and  my  mother  had  me  arrested. 

Q.  Your  mother  didn’t  approve  of  this  life?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  were  sent  to  the  House  of  the  Good  Shepherd?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  were  there  you  never  paid  any  monej’  to 
any  man  outside  of  that  house?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  man  brought  you  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  man  was  guilty  directly  or  indirectly  of  bringing  you  there? 
A.  No,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  much  did  j'ou  get  from  each  man?  A. 
Sometimes  I would  get  $1,  sometimes  $5,  sometimes  $10;  it  just  depended. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Are  you  in  charge  of  this  young  girl.  Madam 
(addressing  a lady  present)?  A.  I am. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Hilary  Collins. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Will  3mu  please  come  forward  and  be  sworn. 

Mrs.  Mary  Collins’  Testimony. 

MARY  COLLINS,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duh-  sworn, 
testified  as  follows: 

' SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  I am  with  the 
Juvenile  Court,  am  an  officer. 

Q.  You  are  a Juvenile  officer  for  the  Juvenile  Court  of  Cook  Count!'? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  are  these  girls  committed  to  the  House  of  the  Good  Shep- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


165 


herd?  A.  The  Catholic  girls — the  preference  is  given  to  religion,  and 
whatever  religion  governs  the  parents  disposes  of  the  girls,  unless  on 
request  of  the  parents  they  want  them  sent  to  Geneva. 

Q.  The  House  of  the  Good  Shepherd  is  practically  a charitable  insti- 
tution? A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  it  is  kept  up  by  the  officials  of  the  Catholic  Church?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  the  state  or  the  county  pay  them  anything?  A.  I believe 
they  get  30  cents  a day  for  each  girl  sent  there. 

Q.  And  while  they  are  there  they  are  just  the  same  as  if  they  were 
in  jail?  A.  No;  they  go  to  school. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  institution?  A.  No;  inside  of  the  institution. 
They  go  to  school  and  they  are  taught  sewing  and  laundry  work. 

Q.  How  long  are  they  kept  there?  A.  Whatever  time  is  necessary, 
sometimes  six  months. 

Q.  Who  determines  when  they  are  to  be  let  out?  A.  Judge  Pinckney 
of  the  Juvenile  Court. 

Q.  Dofes  he  send  them  on  a definite  sentence  for  any  period  of  time? 
A.  Yes;  usually. 

Q.  Are  there  records  kept  of  their  being  paroled  to  anybody?  A. 
Sometimes  there  are  and  sometimes  there  are  not. 

Thereupon  a recess  was  taken  to  2 :30  o’clock  P.  M. 


SESSION  III 


I The  Vice  Committee  issues  a public  announcement  that  begin- 

1 ning  with  its  next  session  its  inquiries  will  be  temporarily  di- 
verted to  investigate  the  matter  of  wages  paid  to  girl  workers 
and  the  possible  connection  of  low  wages  with  the  spread  of 
^ immorality.  Further  testimony  concerning  existing  conditions 
I given  by  the  following  witnesses; 

Mr.  Arthur  Burrage  Farwell; 

Mr.  William  H.  Dunn,  attorney; 

Mrs.  Belle  Buzzell,  social  worker; 

Mary  M.  Ballam,  representing  a juvenile  temperance  society. 

The  Committee  reconvened  Saturday,  March  1,  1913,  2:30  P.  M. 
Present : Same  as  at  previous  session. 

! Whereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  The  Committee  has  prepared  a statement  to  be 
■given  to  the  press;  and  which  will  be  read  into  the  record.  The  statement 
,:is  as  follows; 

! “From  the  testimony  heard  by  the  Committee,  at  the  sessions  on 
Friday  and  Saturday,  it  appears  that  one  of  the  apparently  vital  causes 
of  the  industry  of  the  White  Slave  is  the  low  wage  paid  to  women  workers. 
The  Committee  in  executive  session  this  afternoon,  in  view  of  this  testi- 
mony, voted  to  postpone  all  examination  of  the  victims  of  the  industry 
;until  full  investigation  has  been  made  of  the  wage  question. 

: “For  this  purpose  the  next  meeting  of  this  Committee  was  ordered 

jcalled  for  Friday,  March  7,  at  the  Hotel  La  Salle,  Chicago,  at  10  A.  M. 

“The  Committee  is  deeply  desirous  that  this  meeting  be  attended 
by  all  members  of  the  State  Senate  and  House  of  Representatives  who 
can  so  arrange  their  affairs  to  be  present  at  that  time. 

“The  request  that  all  legislators  be  present  at  this  meeting  is  espe- 
Icially  prompted  by  the  fact  that  a bill  is  at  present  pending  before  the 
'legislature  establishing  $12  a week  as  a minimum  wage  for  women  workers 
i in  Illinois. 

“The  Committee  guarantees  a full  and  fair  hearing  to  all  persons  in- 
literested  in  this  subject,  and  earnestly  invites  the  cooperation  of  employers 
'and  employees  alike. 

(Signed)  “BARRATT  O’HARA,  Lieut.  Governor,  Chairman. 

“EDMUND  BEALL,  State  Senator. 

“F.  JEFF  TOSSEY,  State  Senator. 

“NIELS  JLWW,  State  Senator. 

“D.  T.  WOODWARD,  State  Senator.” 

SENATOR  BEALL;  I make  a motion  that  the  Serg  can:  a:  /vrms  be 
.instructed  to  subpoena  such  people  as  we  think  will  be  desirable  to  appear 
I before  this  Committee  and  testify  in  regard  to  the  wage  question,  and 
I, such  managers  and  proprietors  of  large  stores  in  Chicago, 
j SENATOR  JUUL:  I suggest  that  we  limit  the  number  of  witnesses' 
! to  say  fifteen. 

!i  SENATOR  BEALL:  I would  change  that  to  stores,  factories  and 
■'mail-order  houses.  I would  suggest  about  ten  or  twenty  of  them. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Chair  will  entertain  the  motion,  with  the 
imnderstanding  that  it  is  not  necessary  to  have  more  than  twenty  perhaps, 
t The  motion,  after  being  duly  seconded,  was  put  and  carried, 
i SENATOR  BEALL;  I will  make  another  motion,  that  on  Saturday 
[next,  March  8th,  we  visit  the  House  of  the  Good  Shepherd,  as  we  have 

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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


been  invited  to  do,  and  spend  as  much  time  as  we  find  it  convenient. 

The  motion  was  duly  seconded  and  carried. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Is  there  any  further  business.  If  there  is  not, 
the  Chair  will  state  that  there  are  some  gentlemen  present  who  have 
devoted  considerable  time  to  the  matter  in  which  the  Committee  is  con- 
cerned; and  we  would  like  to  hear  from  them.  Their  time  will  be  limited 
to  fifteen  minutes.  Each  gentleman  will  be  given  not  to  exceed  fifteen 
minutes. 

Mr.  Arthur  Burrage  Farwell’s  Testimony. 

ARTHETR  BURRAGE  EARWELL,  having  been  duly  sworn,  testified 
as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Arthur  Burrage 
Farwell. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Farwell,  you  are  so  conversant  with  the 
various  phases  of  the  situation  that  this  Committee  is  investigatine.  I 
think  the  best  way  of  proceeding  is,  to  let  you  tell  your  own  story.  The 
Committee  wants  to  elicit  from  your  testimony  to  what  extent,  if  any, 
the  business  is  carried  on  of  the  sale  of  women  in  the  State  of  Illinois, 
and  as  to  the  making  of  a profit  out  of  the  sale  of  women.  You  may 
tell  your  story  in  your  own  way. 

MR.  FARWELL:  Well,  gentlemen,  I became  interested  in  this  matter 
especially  in  1907  when  I was  asked  to  address  a gathering  at  Battle 
Creek,  Michigan,  on  the  relation  of  the  selling  of  liquor  to  vice;  and  it  was 
the  first  time  I went  into  a house  of  ill  repute  in  the  red  light  district. 
I went  there  for  the  purpose  of  getting  the  price  they  would  receive  for 
liquors,  and  then  I became  interested  in  the  whole  question;  and  since 
that  time  I have  put  in  a good  deal  of  study  as  to  the  cause  and  the  remedy. 
I believe  it  is  a matter  of  record,  according  to  the  Vice  Commission  report, 
that  fifteen  million  dollars  a year  is  spent  on  vice  matters  in  the  city  of 
Chicago  alone.  I remember  of  a case  where  two  girls  were  shipped  to 
Springfield.  We  communicated  with  Chief  Schuettler.  and  those  eirls  were 
located.  They  had  escaped,  and  the  case  was  in  court.  That  is  twenty- 
five  years  aeo.  That  case  was  in  court  twenty-seven  times,  and  those  girls 
had  to  go  through  the  awful  experience  of  telling  their  story,  before  the 
Municipal  Court,  then  before  the  Grand  Jurv.  and  then  in  the  Criminal 
Court.  A man  named  Henderson  took  the  eirls  to  lililwaukee.  The  result 
was  that  one  of  those  girls  married  honorably,  and  the  other  went  to  a 
house  of  ill-repute.  I am  convinced,  gentlemen,  that  this  ouestion  is  so 
hie  that  one  of  the  remedies  is.  the  teachinq-  of  the  sex-relations  in  the 
public  schools.  I believe  every  boy  and  girl  in  this  country  has  a right 
to  be  taught  that.  I have  here  a letter  written  to  me  in  1910  by  CharUs 
W.  Eliot,  the  great  President  of  Harvard  College,  and  one  from  John  D. 
Rockefeller.  Jr.,  advocating  that.  We  have  a large  number  of  wrecks 
which  would  be  taken  care  of.  W found  a woman  down  in  the  red  light 
district  and  took  care  of  her  for  eight  weeks,  and  now  she  has  got  a joh. 
We  believe  in  taking  care  of  the  wrecks,  but  we  believe  more  in  nre- 
venting  them.  Another  way  is  to  suppress  the  dance  halls,  and  especially 
to  prevent  the  sale  of  liquor  in  dance  halls.  Of  course  men  and  women 
do  things  when  drinking  they  would  not  do  when  sober.  Here  we  have 
in  the  city  of  Chicago  an  ordinance  allowing  the  sale  of  liquor  from  3 
o’clock  in  the  afternoon  to  3 o’clock  in  the  morning  in  dance  halls. 

I believe  another  thing  is  that  every  case  of  contagious  disease  should 
be  reported,  so  that  these  people  could  be  located.  Another  thing,  gentle- 
men, is  that  there  should  be  a law  in  the  State  of  Illinois,  that  a public 
official  who  willfully  refuses  to  enforce  the  law  should  be  removed  from 
office.  Another  thing,  the  State  of  Illinois  should  pass  an  injunction  law 
like  one  passed  by  the  United  States  Senate  a few  days  ago.  Another 
thing  is,  the  teaching  of  the  awful  effects  of  these  diseases.  There  is  a 
book  of  Fornier  of  Paris,  translated  from  the  French,  in  which  Fornier 
speaks  of  4,400  cases  of  syphilis.  Another  thing  is  living  in  cheap  hotels, 
where  girls  go  when  they  come  to  the  city.  John  D.  Rockefeller’s  reports 
of  his  experience  with  the  grand  jur^'  I have  read  with  interest.  Then 
there  is  the  question  of  segregation. 


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169 


j I think  you  are  doing  one  of  the  finest  things  that  has  ever  been  done 
jby  the  State  of  Illinois.  I believe  you  are  trying  to  get  at  the  bottom  of 
this  thing,  and  it  will  not  only  help  the  present  generation,  but  it  will 


generations  yet  to  come. 


’ j REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  Could  you  give  us  any  specific  names 
■ |of  men  who  have  been  living  off  the  earnings  of  these  unfortunate  women; 

' |if  so,  it  would  be  a great  help. 

MR.  FARWELL:  The  details  of  these  cases  Mrs.  Aldrich  has.  She 
has  a memorandum  of  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Your  time  is  running  out,  and  we  would  like 
: to  get  your  ideas  of  some  of  the  causes  that  have  been  mentioned  here 
as  underlying  causes  of  this  entire  trouble.  What  do  you  know  about  the 
- wage  question  being  one  of  the  chief  underlying  causes  of  white  slavery? 

MR.  FARWELL:  I think  that  is  one  of  the  underlying  causes.  I 
. have  been  over  it.  I believe  nothing  is  more  sacred  than  a pure  life. 

i SENATOR  BEALL:  You  are  right  as  far  as  you  go,  but  you  know 
that  girls  like  some  of  these  girls  that  have  no  mother  or  father  and  no 
home,  and  who  want  to  go  to  work,  and  they  come  to  Chicago  or  some 
' city  to  seek  employment  and  get  work  at  $4  or  $6  a week,  and  they  want 
i good  clothes  to  make  a good  showing,  what  do  you  say  about  that? 

MR.  FARWELL:  There  are  cases  of  that  kind,  of  course.  In  our 
I work  we  come  across  a great  many  different  cases. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  Don’t  you  believe  that  if  these  girls  were  re- 
ceiving a living  wage  they  might  lead  a good  life  and  not  follow  the  life 

J they  do  now?  A.  Yes;  and  one  of  those  cases  we  had  to  do  with  came 
J from  Grand  Crossing,  where  a reputable  man,  supposed  to  be  a reputable 
, merchant,  had  ruined  a young  girl;  and  the  thing  came  to  our  attention, 
and  we  investigated  the  matter,  and  there  were  also  about  ten  to  fifteen 
j other  young  girls  there  he  had  ruined.  We  found  also  a place  in  South 
J Chicago  where  there  was  a dance  hall  and  rooms,  and  this  man’s  business 

J was  to  get  hold  of  girls  and  put  drink  into  them  and  ship  them  into  the 

city  of  Chicago  and  to  East  St.  Louis  and  to  Rock  Island  and  other 
J places.  I asked  the  Committee  to  investigate  the  matter.  It  was  found 
J he  got  these  girls  and  would  get  them  full  of  wine  and  ruin  them.  I am 
I talking  about  the  general  run  of  things  in  a large  city  like  Chicago,  New 
York,  St.  Louis  and  Kansas  City.  We  are  not  as  well  posted  as  you  on  these 
matters;  but  don’t  you  believe  the  main  thing  is,  they  do  not  have  money 
enough  to  live  on?  A.  No;  I don’t.  Senator.  I think  that  'is  one  of  the 
serious  things,  however. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  amusements  would  you  suggest  for  these 
girls  where  they  have  no  place  to  receive  any  visitors? 

MR.  FARWELL:  The  state  can  open  the  public  schools  for  centers. 
Here  is  a million  dollars  worth  of  property.  The  City  has  taken  care  of 
the  wrecks  of  buildings,  and  why  shouldn’t  it  take  care  of  the  wrecks 
of  girls?  The_  conditions  ought  not  to  be  as  they  are.  Take  Freiberg’s 
dance  hall.  Girls  go  on  duty  at  4 o’clock  in  the  afternoon  and  stay  there 
mtil  4 o’clock  in  the  morning,  and  then  they  are  taken  to  the  Cadillac 
ind  other  hotels. 


Mr.  William  H.  Dunn’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAM  H.  DUNN,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 
iv/orn,  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  State  your  name?  A.  William  H.  Dunn. 


Q.  You  live  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  In  the  Village  of  Brookfield 
ust  outside  of  Chicago. 

Q.  What  if  anything  have  you  observed  in  regard  to  the  subject 
natter  of  the  investigation  of  this  Committee?  A.  I have  had  business 
lere  jn  the  courts  of  Cook  County  for  many  years.  I have  made  a study 
)f  this  subject. 


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Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  of  any  case  where  women 
have  been  sold  or  delivered  to  houses  of  ill  fame  by  men?  A.  Not  through 
court  procedings,  but  I have  been  in  trials  where  they  were  sent  to  the 

penitentiary. 

Q.  If  you  have  any  information  of  this  kind  give  us  a brief  state- 
ment of  your  experience.  A.  My  own  experience  has  been  in  the  courts 
of  Cook  County.  For  many  years  I have  seen  children  brought  into  the 
Juvenile  Court,  which  I have  been  fighting  in  Chicago  for  twelve  years, 
which  I believe  is  one  of  the  greatest  causes  for  the  red-light  district. 
We  have  numerous  Child-Care  societies.  Under  the  system  of  the  Juvenile 
Court  they  can  go  in  and  take  the  children  from  the  parents  and  take 
them  to  a private  corporation  and  deliver  them  to  any  man  who  will  make 
an  application  for  them.  Where  a good  man  can  get  a girl,  the  most 
depraved  man  can  get  one.  I called  to  see  Air.  Roe  at  66  La  Salle  Street, 
but  he  was  in  the  western  states,  so  the  lady  at  the  place  told  me.  They 
had  delivered  a young  girl  to  some  people,  and  I sent  a lady  to  get  the 
girl. 

Q.  For  what  purpose?  A.  As  a housemaid.  They  can  take  them  out, 
take  them  away  from  the  mother,  and  she  loses  the  identity  of  the  girl, 
and  she  is  turned  over  to  a foster-parent;  and  the  mother  will  not  know 
where  her  daughter  is.  I knew  of  a case  of  a young  girl  who  was  turned 
over,  and  she  became  the  mother  of  a baby  at  12  years  of  age.  What 
we  want  are  reforms  to  save  these  children.  The  great  trouble  is,  they 
do  not  get  at  the  root  of  the  evil.  One  evil  is  the  lack  of  wages  and  the 
poverty  in  the  mother’s  home.  One  case  is  that  of  the  Alahony  girl. 
She  was  the  only  support  her  mother  had.  They  came  there,  and  the 
mother  said  “If  you  take  my  oldest,  take  the  others.”  I sent  over  for  one 
of  the  blanks  of  the  Children’s  Aid  Society.  A Air.  O.  P.  Sharp,  151 
Main  Street,  Dubuque,  Iowa,  was  there  for  a girl;  and  the  lady  said  she 
didn’t  need  any  recommendation.  I got  the  man  outside  and  got  his 
name.  That  was  right  in  the  city  of  Chicago. 

Q.  Let  us  get  this  straightened  out.  You  maintain  there  is  such  a 
society  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  Incorporated  under  the  laws  of 
Illinois. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  it?  A.  The  Illinois  Children’s  Home  & Aid 
Society. 

Q.  Located  where?  A.  In  the  Unity  Building,  Chicago. 

Q.  What  do  you  charge  that  they  do?  A.  I charge  that  under  the 
state  law  it  permits  them  to  take  children  from  their  parents  and  deport 
them  to  any  city  of  the  Union  or  any  foreign  country. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  they  deport  them  for  immoral  purposes?  A.  I 
don’t  want  to  charge  that;  but  I charge  they  deport  them.  These  children 
are  taken  from  their  parents  and  given  to  others  without  their  consent, 
and  this  is  done  in  the  city  of  Chicago. 

FORAIER  CONGRESSAIAN  WHARTON:  Taking  the _ proposition 
you  have  just  spoken  of,  if  everything  you  say  I will  assume  is  true,  how 
would  that  affect  the  situation  that  this  Committee  is  tr3-ing  to  get  at  as 
to  what  are  the  underlying  causes  of  these  things  in  large  communities? 
A.  I will  answer  you  by  stating  that  there  are  people  scouting  around 
for  those  girls,  and  they  bring  those  girls  into  court  on  trifling  matters, 
and  they  take  them  from  their  parents,  and  thej^  are  placed  in  these  homes; 
and  their  parents  have  no  control  over  them.  Then  they  are  turned  out 
and  then  go  to  the  red  light  district.  You  have  a law  to  protect  j'our 
laborers,  and  you  should  have  a law  to  protect  those  girls. 

Q.  Supposing  what  you  say  is  all  true,  as  to  the  Juvenile  Court  and 
this  society  or  organization  or  whatever  3fOU  want  to  call  it,  coming  back 
to  the  proposition  that  concerns  this  Committee,  what  are  the  causes  which 
lead  to  this?  A.  Povert3f  at  the  home  and  loose  laws. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  3^our  reason  as  to  why  girls  turn  out  to 
be  common  prostitutes?  A.  Povert3',  that  is,  where  the  mother  is  poor; 
and  the  girl  has  to  go  out  and  earn  a living. 

Q.  Suppose  she  goes  to  work  in  one  of  the  department  stores  for 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  171 

four  to  six  dollars  a week,  that  would  not  support  the  mother  and  the 
family?  A.  No. 

Q.  Then  she  has  to  get  money  to  live  on?  A.  Exactly;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  your  reason?  A.  That  is  one  reason.  There  are  hundreds 
of  cases  where  girls  come  in  here,  and  there  are  people  scouting  around 
this  city  to  find  good-looking  girls. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  What  do  they  use  them  for  when  they  get  them? 
A.  Put  them  in  houses  throughout  the  country. 

Q.  Mr.  Dunn,  you  are  an  attorney?  A.  I am  not  practicing  now. 

Q.  What  do  you  suggest  as  a remedy?  A.  I would  suggest  a law 
in  Illinois  to  provide  for  reasonable  wages. 

Q.  Do  you  know  now  whether  anybody  has  traded  in  White  Slavery? 
A.  All  I want  to  say  in  that  respect  is,  I notice  in  Cook  County,  where 
children  were  brought  to  a home  that  was  unworthy. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Where  is  that  Home?  A.  It  is  out  on  the  West 
Side,  where  girls  were  taken. 

Q.  The  Juvenile  Court  placed  children  in  charge  of  the  home?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  You  mean  to  state  to  this  Committee  that  the  home  is  entirely 
unworthy?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  don’t  object  to  these  girls  being  placed  in  reputable  families 
in  Illinois?  A.  No;  if  they  are  placed  there  under  the  proper  protection 
of  the  law.  That  is  where  you  get  your  housemaids. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Dunn,  let  me  understand,  your  testimony  is  along  what  line? 
A.  It  is  this,  that  under  the  present  system  of  the  Juvenile  law,  it  makes 
it  possible  for  anyone  in  the  White  Slave  traffic  to  get  girls  and  take 
them  away  under  the  pretext  that  they  want  to  make  a home  for  them. 

Q.  That  there  are  private  institutions  parading  under  the  cloak  of 
charitable  institutions,  to  give  out  girls  to  anybody?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I want  to  get  this  clear.  Do  I understand  it  is  permissible  in 
Chicago  for  any  number  of  people  to  get  together  as  an  association  or 
a charitable  institution,  and  give  out  girls  for  domestic  service?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  in  mind  any  such  cases?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I know  of  cases. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I wish  you  would  give  all  those  cases  to  our 
investigator.  It  is  a serious  matter.  We  might  call  in  the  witnesses  and 
get  their  testimony  as  to  these  conditions. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Can  you  tell  the  Committee  of  any  society  that 
has  charge  of  a girl,  that  will  just  turn  her  loose?  A.  Turn  her  loose? 
Chicago  is  full  of  them.  Our  reports  show  it.  I have  trunks  full  of 
reports;  and  while  I was  in  this  office  this  Mr.  O.  P.  Sharp  of  Dubuque, 
Iowa,  got  this  girl  without  any  references.  I think  the  practice  should 
be  stopped. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  will  stop  it  if  you  can  make  good  on  your 
facts. 

THE  WITNESS:  I will  bring  the  proofs. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Will  you  furnish  this  Committee  with  a list  of 
associations  to  whom  the  Juvenile  Court  of  Cook  County  assigns  girls; 
will  you  furnish  us  a list  of  those  institutions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  get  one  or  two  or  more  respectable  citizens  to  join  you 
in  backing  the  statements  you  have  made  here  today  as  to  the  character 
of  those  societies  and  the  use  made  of  the  children  after  the  Juvenile 
Court  has  so  assigned  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I will  bring  specific  cases  at 
your  next  meeting,  and  I will  bring  documentary  evidence. 

Q.  Then  will  you  pencil  down  what  in  your  idea  is  the  remedy  for 
this  evil  in  your  own  way,  give  us  what  in  your  idea  ought  to  be  the 
remedy  and  to  what  extent  the  law  governing  juveniles  in  this  state  should 


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be  changed?  If  you  will  bring  us  that,  there  will  be  no  necessity  for 
keeping  you  here  today. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  I suggest  in  fairness  and  in  justice  to  the  judge 
of  the  Juvenile  Court  of  this  County,  that  he  be  given  an  opportunity  to 
appear  here. 

I NOTE:  This  line  of  inquiry  was  subsequently  taken  up  by  a special 
legislative  investigating  committee  on  “Home-Finding  Societies,”  with 
Representative  Thomas  Curran  as  chairman.  The  committee  made  an 
exhaustive  report  in  January,  1915.  The  report  is  printed  and  copies  are 
available  to  those  interested.] 

Miss  Belle  Buzzell’s  Testimony. 

MISS  BELLE  BUZZELL,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  State  your  name?  A.  Belle  Buzzell. 

Q.  You  live  in  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  here?  A.  I have  lived  here  since  1900. 

Q.  Are  you  engaged  in  reform  work  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  6 East  Chicago  Avenue. 

Q.  You  may  tell  the  Committee  what  information  you  possess  as  to 
the  question  of  the  traffic  of  selling  females,  which  is  chiefly  what  we 
are  investigating.  Tell  it  in  your  own  language.  A.  When  I came  here 
in  1900  I had  never  seen  a street-walker  before  in  my  life. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from?  A.  From  Lawrence,  Alassachusetts. 
I became  interested  in  girls,  going  back  and  forth,  and  when  I was  in 
the  training  school  I started  to  work  wuth  them.  I found  there  were  girls 
supporting  men,  the  pimp  and  the  cadet.  They  were  selling  their  bodies 
and  supporting  those  men.  I also  know  that  women  have  been  sent  out 
of  the  city,"  and  are  being  so  sent  now.  I have  had  personal  cases  where 
women  have  gone  out  of  the  city.  I might  cite  a case  if  you  do  not  mind. 
There  was  a young  man  that  went  to  Milwaukee  that  brought  two  girls 
here,  and  brought  them  to  Dearborn  Street. 

Q.  What  is  the  system  of  booking  maintained  in  the  city  of  Chicago — 
I don’t  mean  the  liouses  but  as  to  the  girls?  A.  Inspector  AIcCann  was 
the  one  who  started  the  booking  system,  because  of  this  reason,  that  so 
many  girls  came  here,  and  their  people  didn’t  know  where  they  were; 
they  were  lost,  and  there  was  no  way  of  finding  them;  so  Inspector 
McCann  felt  that  by  booking  girls,  if  their  people  came  here,  the  father 
and  mother  or  relatives,  they  could  easily  locate  the  girls.  Thej’  also 
introduced  the  Bertillion  system.  When  Inspector  AIcCann  was  at  the 
Desplaines  station  he  sent  400  girls  home  that  came  into  that  district. 
I worked  a great  deal  in  the  station,  and  I know  about  that.  There  were 
two  girls  that  were  brought  there  from  Green  Bay,  Michigan,  and  went 
around  in  the  Red  Light  District,  and  they  were  taken  to  the  Harrison 
Police  station. 

Q.  What  year  did  this  take  place?  A.  It  is  about  a year  ago.  I 
talked  to  the  girls  on  Sunday,  and  on  Monday  I went  down  to  the  court. 
One  of  the  girls  was  turned  over  to  me,  and  the  other  girl  was  held.  The 
judge  asked  the  young  man  that  brought  them  here  how  much  money 
he  earned,  and  he  told  him  he  earned  $18  a week  and  that  he  was  a paper- 
hanger.  I took  the  girl  up  to  the  federal  people,  Mr.  Parkin  and  Mr. 
DeWoody,  and  they  talked  with  her. 

Q.  The  gentlemen  just  mentioned  are  attorneys  of  the  federal  court? 
A.  Mr.  DeWoody  is  an  investigator  and  Mr.  Parkin  is  Assistant  United 
States  District  Attorney. 

Q.  You  met  them  in  the  federal  building?  A.  \ es.  That  night  at 
5 o’clock  they  had  this  boy  arrested.  He  was  indicted  by  the  federal  grand 
jurv  and  convicted.  He  got  three  years  in  Ft.  Leavenworth  and  a $500 
fine.  The  case  was  taken  to  the  United  States  Supreme  Court,  and  it  is 
pending  now.  There  have  been  other  cases  where  men  have  taken  girls 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


173 


from  other  states  to  this  state.  I have  had  them  in  my  own  room  and 
in  my  own  bed  with  me,  weeks  at  a time.  I know  this  thing  does  exist. 
There  are  hotels — I could  take  you  to  some  of  them  where  young  girls  go 
and  sell  their  bodies  to  men.  There  are  many  such  places  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Outside  of  these  cases  pending  in  the  federal  court,  do  you 
know  of  any  others?  A.  I have  had  many  cases  come  under  my  work. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  the  names  of  any  men  who  in 
your  judgment  have  been  engaged  in  the  White  Slave  traffic?  A.  I know 
of  a girl  whom  I had  in  my  home  for  about  three  weeks.  The  man  in 
the  case  was  a Persian. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name?  A.  I don’t  just  remember  his  name  now. 

Q.  Or  his  address?  A.  I think  he  is  in  Gary  or  maybe  in  South 
Chicago,  in  the  steel  works;  the  last  time  I heard  of  him  that  is  where 
he  was.  This  little  girl  was  only  15  years  old.  This  man  married  her. 
She  didn’t  have  any  mother.  Her  father  and  mother  were  both  dead  and 
she  came  here  and  met  this  man  at  a dance  one  evening.  The  landlady 
where  she  roomed  had  a daughter  and  she  went  to  this  dance,  and  this 
girl  went  with  her;  and  they  met  two  men  there  that  night.  In  fact  this 
Persian  roomed  there.  It  was  on  the  North  Side  I believe,  on  Erie  Street. 
He  came  home  with  her  and  he  asked  her  to  marry  him,  and  they  were 
married.  He  took  her  to  Gary,  Inidana,  and  she  went  through  terrible 
tortures  of  selling  her  body  to  men.  They  got  a flat,  and  the  Persians 
would  come  up  there,  and  she  sold  her  body  and  got  money  for  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  woman  got  that  money  or  the  man 
got  that  money?  A.  I wouldn’t  be  sure.  I couldn’t  swear  to  whether 
they  gave  the  money  directly  to  him  and  she  turned  it  over  to  him  after- 
wards, or  whether  they  gave  it  to  her. 

Q.  You  think  he  got  the  money?  A.  O,  yes,  but  whether  it  was 
paid  directly  to  him,  I don’t  know.  She  Anally  left  him  and  came  back 
to  Chicago.  She  came  back  here  and  went  out  on  Clark  Street  to  sell 
her  body,  and  then  he  was  arrested.  The  next  day  the  case  was  brought 
into  the  federal  court,  and  he  was  discharged.  As  soon  as  they  discharged 
him  they  called  me  up  and  I came  down  to  the  federal  court  and  took  the 
girl  home.  Had  they  let  me  know,  I would  have  turned  the  case  over  to' 
the  state  authorities  and  prosecuted  him  under  the  state  law.  He  learned 
she  was  at  my  house,  and  he  came  there  many  times  while  I was  out. 
Then  I had  some  people  locate  him,  and  they  finally  located  him  in  South 
Chicago  in  a steel  mill.  He  left  there  and  I lost  track  of  him. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know  she  has  reformed?  A.  As  far  as  I know, 
she  has. 

Q.  What  do  you  now  say  as  to  the  underlying  cause  of  the  White 
Slave  traffic,  do  you  think  it  is  poverty  or  the  wage  question?  A.  I think 
the  wage  question  is  one. 

Q.  Store  girls,  factory  girls,  shop  girls,  girls  in  different  walks  of 
life — what  do  they  earn?  A.  They  make  from  $4  to  $6  and  $7  a week. 

Q.  What  is  your  idea  as  to  the  possibility  of  a girl  sustaining  life 
and  keeping  respectable  on  four  dollars  a week?  A.  I don’t  think  she 
could  do  it. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  she  could  live  nicely  on?  A.  I think  she 
ought  to  have  $12  a week. 

Q.  You  think  that  where  they  get  $4,  $5  or  $6  a week,  that  the  present 
state  of  prostitution  is  due  to  this?  A.  It  has  a great  deal  to  do  with  it. 

EX-CONGRESSMAN  WHARTON:  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I ask  a 
question? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Yes. 

MR.  WHARTON:  Along  this  line,  have  you  ever  learned  in  your 
experience,  that  girls  who  are  employed  in  the  different  stores  are  on 
call  at  some  of  the  flats,  and  sent  for  in  the  evening,-  after  their  work? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I may  tell  you  of  a flat  of  74  apartments  in  the  Ridgewood 
on  the  South  Side,  I think  it  is  something  like  28th  Street  and  Wabash 
Avenue. 


174 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


MR.  WHARTON:  28th  Street  and  Wabash  Avenue?  A.  1 have  been 
there  a good  many  times. 

MR.  WHARTON:  I never  have  been  there. 

THE  WITNESS:  I should  hope  not.  There  were  two  flats  with 
women  in  them.  These  women  were  booked  by  the  Police  Department, 
and  under  the  Bertillion  system  to  show  how  many  girls  they  had  in  the 
flat;  and  men  that  came  into  the  flats  would  be  asked  by  the  landlady 
what  they  wanted.  The  landlady  would  tell  them  how  much  it  wmuld 
cost,  and  then  these  girls  that  worked  down-town  were  called  in,  and  the 
men  would  pay  for  the  treatment. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  don’t  think  that  is  so  of  most  girls  that 
work  in  the  large  stores  in  the  city?  A.  No;  I wouldn’t  say  that.  A 
great  many  of  the  girls  that  work  in  the  stores  live  at  home  or  live  with 
relatives.  But  I believe  a great  deal  of  prostitution  is  caused  from  low 
wages.  I don’t  believe  any  woman,  if  she  got  reasonable  wages,  would 
do  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  You  think  it  is  the  wages  that  has  something  to 
do  with  it?  A.  Yes.  I am  a woman  myself,  and  I know  there  is  no 
woman  that  would  go_  out,  who  was  decent,  and  sell  her  body,  if  she 
could  earn  enough  to  live.  Then  there  are  girls  who  want  a little  decent 
amusement.  What  would  be  enjoyment  for  me  wouldn’t  be  for  some 
one  else.  I don’t  believe  women  will  sell  their  bodies  if  theA'  could  earn 
enough  to  live  respectable  and  nicely.  So  many  young  girls  go  wrong 
because  they  can’t  afford  to  dress  well. 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  Do  j'ou  think  the  dance  hall  is 
largely  responsible?  A.  I don’t  think  it  is  such  a large  percentage  as  a 
great  many  people  think.  I have  investigated  some  of  the  dance  halls, 
and  especially  the  Dearborn  on  the  North  Side. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  Dearborn 
Hall?  A.  I have  been  there  several  times  and  I have  known  it  to  be 
all  right. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  any  girls  meeting  so-called  cadets  at 
the  Dearborn  Dance  Hall?  A.  I don’t  know  that  they  ever  do;  I don’t 
think  they  would  do  that  there. 

Q.  Of  your  own  knowledge  is  the  Dearborn  Dance  Hall  connected 
with  the  saloon?  A.  I don’t  think  it  is. 

MR.  WHARTON:  You  have  made  some  investigation  and  done  some 
shadow  work  and  probably  have  found  out  some  of  the  conditions  under 
which  street-walkers  or  hustlers,  as  they  are  generally  termed,  live,  and 
the  influences  surrounding  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  found  any  percentage  of  those  women  who  are 
protected  by  the  different  police  officers,  who  act  in  the  capacity  of  pro- 
tectors, and  perhaps  sweetheart?  A.  I think  I could  say  so.  I wouldn’t 
want  to  swear  to  it,  but  I know  those  things  exist.  I have  known  of  it. 

Q.  That  is  one  of  the  conditions  this  Committee  is  trying  to  get  at. 
A.  At  the  time  they  closed  the  red-light  district  two  weeks  ago  I went 
down  in  the  district  with  some  of  my  friends.  It  was  supposed  to  be 
closed.  We  walked  through,  and  I saw  a man  going  into  a house,  knocking 
at  the  door,  and  I made  an  affidavit.  I spoke  to  the  officer  there.  I think 
it  was  about  the  15th  of  October.  I said  to  Officer  Jones,  “I  thought 
these  houses  were  closed  down  here.”  I saw  a man  going  in.  He  shrugged 
shoulders  like  this  (indicating).  He  said  “We  have  had  no  orders  to 
close  the  district;  Wayman  closed  it.”  I said  “You  are  from  the  22nd 
Street  station  and  had  no  orders?”  He  said  “No,  we  have  had  no  orders; 
we  only  do  what  we  are  told  to  do.”  I told  Mr.  Farwell,  and  he  asked 
me  if  I would  make  an  affidavit,  which  I did.  He  sent  a cop3’  to  Mr. 
Wayman  and  Chief  McWeeney,  and  two  friends  of  mine  made  affidavits. 

SENATOR  JL^UL:  In  other  words  the  district  was  not  closed? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anj’-  one  engaged  in  the  White  Slave  traffic  under 
police  protection?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  that,  but  I can  cite  the  case  of  a 
girl  where  the  man  must  have  had  police  protection,  or  where  she  had 
police  protection. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


175 


i . Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  she  had  police  protection.  A.  I think 
she  had. 

MR.  WHARTON:  Just  one  more  question.  You  have  testified  as 
to  girls  being  sent  for  from  “call”  flats?  A.  I couldn’t  swear  to  it. 

Q.  You  state  in  your  testimony  that  girls  were  sent  for?  A.  Yes, 
I know  the  Ridgeway. 

Q.  These  flats  are  used  for  the  purpose  of  prostitution?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Patronized  by  men  in  good  circumstances?  A.  They  must  be 
from  the  prices  they  charge. 

; Q.  Don’t  3rou  think  that  if  those  flats  were  known,  it  would  be  a 
igreat  deal  better  than  to  have  them  scattered  around?  A.  I don’t  believe 
in  segregation. 

Mary  M.  Ballam’s  Testimony. 

MARY  M.  BALLAM,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
itestified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  State  your  name?  A.  Mary  F.  Ballam. 

' Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  301  Security  Building.  I hardly  think 
II  can  give  much  information.  I hadn’t  intended  to  come  here.  I am 
[interested  more  in  our  organization. 

! Q.  What  is  your  organization?  A.  It  is  sort  of  a clearing  house 
[for  temperance  and  citizenship  work  for  young  people  of  the  city,  that 
|is,  getting  young  people  who  have  pretty  good  consciences,  to  awake  to 
better  conditions.  Of  course  I have  been  intensely  interested  in  all  these 
questions,  and  have  kept  my  eyes  open  and  my  ears  open,  and  have  talked 
with  a great  many  different  people.  I have  been  to  that  Dearborn  dance 
hall  that  has  been  talked  about. 

! Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  Dearborn  dance  hall?  A.  I know 
'the  Dearborn  dance  hall  two  months  ago  was  running  in  connection  with 
!a  saloon. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  when  you  say  running  in  connection  with  a 
|i saloon?  A.  Why,  there  was  liquor  there.  They  would  go  down  on  the 
Inext  floor.  There  were  about  500  people  there,  and  about  400  or  500 
went  down  and  drank. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  traffic  in  women?  A.  I have  done 
no  particular  investigation. 

f Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  subject?  A.  You  mean  of 
‘my  own  first-hand  knowledge?  « 

Q.  Yes.  We  have  got  several  volumes  of  rumors.  A.,  I say  I don’t 
[have  very  much  to  say  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  woman  who  has  been  placed  in  any  house 
],of  ill  fame  in  Illinois?  A.  Against  her  will? 

' Q.  By  any  man  who  derived  profit  through  the  placing  of  her;  do 
you  know  of  any  cases?  A.  I was  talking  with  a woman  that  was  so 
placed,  but  she  wouldn’t  come  in  to  testify. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  institution  or  body  of  men  in  this  community 
or  any  other  place  in  Illinois,  deriving  a profit  from  shipping  girls  outside 
[of  the  state?  A.  Not  first-hand,  no. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  institution  of  any  men  in  the  state  of  Illinois, 

[ organized  for  the  purpose  of  shipping  girls  for  that  purpose?  A.  Not 
. first-hand. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  Madam,  you  said  you  knew  of  a case.  Let  us 
! have  that. 

(SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Chairman,  I maintain  that  this  is  going  to 
lumber  our  record.  The  amount  of  testimony  we  have  been  putting  in 
the  record  is  lumbering  the  record. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Chair  rules  on  the  presumption  that  we  are 
k going  to  get  at  the  bottom  of  a good  deal  of  this  vice  in  permitting  this 
IJestimonir.  We  are  not  working  under  the  necessary  rules  of  court  pro- 
cedure. Any  member  of  the  Committee  has  a right  to  ask  the  witness 


176  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

any  question  that  that  member  desires  to  ask,  and  the  questions  and 
answers  will  be  put  into  the  record.  Every  member  of  the  Committee 
must  be  accorded  full_  opportunity  to  inform  himself  on  an}-  point  within 
the  scope  of  our  inquiry. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Madam,  you  say  you  know  of  a lady  that  did 
furnish  money  or  give  money  to  some  man  at  some  place  or  other;  is 
that  correct?  A.  Yes.  There  was  a young  man  came  from  the  East 
and  said  he  wanted  to  marry  a girl,  and  wanted  to  know  if  I couldn’t 
get  her  off  the  police  records  or  any  other  records,  that  he  wanted  her 
record  clear.  I told  him  I would  try.  I did  talk  to  different  people  I 
knew,  I did  promise  to  have  her  record  wiped  clear.  I said  I thought 
he  had  better  bring  the  girl  in,  and  she  came  in  and  I talked  with  her. 
She  said  she  wasn’t  forced  to  do  anything,  and  she  felt  she  had  better 
spend  a year  in  work,  and  get  entirely  free,  and  give  him  a chance  to 
get  some  money.  She  said  she  was  $200  in  debt. 

Q.  Did  she  say  whom  she  owed  $200  to?  A.  To  the  people  in  the 
house. 

Q.  Did  she  say  how  she  got  in  debt  to  them?  A.  She  said  she 
bought  things — her  clothes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  don’t  care  to  give  those  names?  A.  No; 
I promised  them  I would  not.  There  was  another  little  girl  that  was 
brought  in.  There  was  a young  man  and  of  course  I had  to  promise  him 
I wouldn’t  tell.  He  is  married.  This  little  girl  was  17. 

Q.  What  reason  do  you  give  for  this  girl  being  on  the  street?  A. 
She  said  she  had  been  getting  $8  a week;  and  her  parents  died  when  she 
was  a baby,  and  she  was  raised  by  an  aunt  until  she  was  14,  and  that  she 
had  been  kind  of  knocking  around. 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD.  Q.  You  think  it  was  because  she 
didn’t  have  sufficient  to  live  on?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  that. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  think  as  to  the  question  of  wages 
as  one  of  the  causes?  A.  That  opens  up  a very  big  question.  Of  course, 
I don’t  think  a girl  can  live  well  on  less  than  $10  or  $12  a week;  but 
when  you  come  to  consider  a minimum  wage,  then  you  have  to  take  into 
consideration  as  to  whether  or  not  the  girl  is  capable  of  earning  that; 
and  that  is  a pretty  serious  proposition. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Possibly,  Madam;  but  somehow  we  feel  that 
in  safeguarding  our  womanhood,  the  cost  is  not  of  primarj-  consideration. 
A.  No  doubt  about  that.  I am  not  giving  my  opinion  of  what  ought 
to  be  done.  Another  thing  is  the  question  of  amusement.  I think  that  is 
fully  as  large  as  the  one  of  wages.  Then  there  is  the  question  of  the 
demand  of  men  for  women. 

Q.  What  would  you  state  to  this  Committee  is  the  principal  causes 
for  the  White  Slave  traffic?  A.  Well,  unquestionably  the  wage  proposi- 
tion in  regard  to  girls;  questionable  amusements  and  the  demand  on  the 
part  of  men  for  indulgence,  and  the  desire  on  the  part  of  unscrupulous 
men. 

Q.  There  may  be  abnormal  cases.  A.  Yes,  abnormal  viewpoints.  I 
knew  of  a woman  who  told  me  of  her  conditions.  She  was  a nice-looking 
woman.  Of  course,  she  may  have  colored  it  for  me,  I don’t  know;  but 
she  talked  quite  freely.  She  said  “I  don’t  mind  this  life,  I know  how 
to  take  care  of  myself.  I know  very  well  how  to  take  care  of  myself.” 
She  seemed  to  think  it  was  a necessity  on  the  part  of  men,  and  that  she 
was  doing  some  good. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  thank  you,  Madam.  The  Commission  will 
stand  adjourned  until  next  Friday  at  lO  o’clock  A.  M. 

Thereupon  an  adjournment  was  taken  to  Friday,  IMarch  7,  1913, 
at  10  o’clock  A.  M. 


SESSION  IV. 

Summoned  by  the  Committee,  several  representative  em- 
ployers appear  before  it  to  give  information  concerning  wages  ptud 
to  their  employes  and  their  opinions  as  to  the  actual  living  ex- 
penses of  self-dependent  girls.  Testimony  of: 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald  (president),  Mr.  G.  H.  Miller  (man- 
ager employment  department)  and  Mr.  Lessing  J.  Rosen- 
wald (department  manager)  of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.; 

Eleanor  Benson,  office  clerk; 

Emily  Houck,  office  clerk; 

Mrs.  P — M . 


Chicago,  Friday,  March  7,  1913. 

BE  IT  REMEMBERED,  That  the  ILEINOIS  SENATE  VICE 
v'OMMITTEE  reconvened  at  ten  o’clock  a.  m.  today,  Eriday,  March 
7.  A.  D.  1913,  at  the  Hotel  La  Salle,  Chicago. 

Members  Present: 

Lieutenant-Governor  O’Hara,  Chairman. 

Senator  Niels  Juul, 

Senator  Edmond  Beall. 

Senator  F.  Jeff  Tossey. 

Owing  to  illness,  Senator  Woodard  was  not  in  attendance. 
Whereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  members  of  the  Senate  Vice  Committee  will 
now  come  to  order.  The  Sergeant-at-Arms  will  please  read  the  list  of 
witnesses  summoned. 

THE  SERGEANT-AT-ARMS  (reading  list  of  names):  James  Simpson, 
Edwin  F.  Mandel,  Roy  M.  Shayne,  George  Lytton,  W.  C.  Thorne,  Joseph 
Basch,  John  T.  Pirie,  Edwin  Hillman.  A.  Ellinger,  Henry  C.  Schwab,  E.  J. 
Lehman  and  Julius  Rosenwald. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Sergeant-at-Arms  will  please  see  that  those 
gentlemen  are  summoned  who  are  not  here. 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald  was  then  called. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Rosenwald,  will  you  please  be  sworn? 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald’s  Testimony. 

JULIUS  ROSENWALD,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  by  the  secre- 
tary, testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name,  please?  A.  Julius  Rosenwald. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  I am  president  of 
Sears,  Roebuck  & Company. 

Q.  That  is  a company  or  a corporation?  A.  A corporation. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  to  the  committee  in  brief  the  scope  of  your 
authority  as  president  of  this  corporation?  A.  My  authority  is  the  same  as 
that  of  any  president  of  any  corporation,  I imagine.  I am  at  the  head  of  the 
organization  actively. 


177 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  And  you  have  within  your  scope  of  authority  the  right  to  hire 
and  discharge  people?  A.  I have  the  authority,  but  I do  not  exercise  it. 

Q.  Will  you  state,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  how  many  people  are  employed  by 
this  corporation  to  the  best  of  your  memory?  A.  Is  there  any  objection 
to  my  referring  to  notes,  because  I want  to  be  accurate? 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  No,  not  at  all.  THE  WITNESS  (Referring 
to  memorandum):  Our  pay-roll  for  the  week  ending  March  8,  1913,  showed 
4,732  women  and  girls;  I might  say  female  employes. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  woman  workers  by  your  cor- 
poration? A.  The  average  pay-roll — that  is,  the  average  salary  on  this 
pay-roll  is  $9.12. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  any  woman  worker  in  your  employ? 
A.  The  lowest  wage  paid  to  a girl  under  sixteen  years  of  age  is  $5.00  dollars 
per  week  for  the  first  three  months  or  less,  and  $5.50  per  week  if  she  has 
been  in  the  employ  of  the  company  not  to  exceed  three  months. 

Q.  You  have  no  woman  in  your  employ  getting  less  than  $5.00  a week? 
A.  No;  we  have  no  woman  in  that  sense  of  the  word  getting  as  low  as  $5.00 
a week.  Eor  help  under  sixteen  years  of  age  we  have  no  female  employe 
who  receives  less  than  $5.00  or  any  employe  over  sixteen  years  of  age 
who  receives  less  than  $CO0  a week. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  You  have  no  female  employe  over  sixteen  years  of  age  at  less 
than  $5.50  a week?  A.  There  is  no  female  employed  over  sixteen  years 
of  age  or  up  to  sixteen  and  a half  years  of  age  who  receives  less  than  $5.00. 
Tlie  starting  wage  is  $5.00  and  the  advance  is  made  up  to  $5.50  within  two 
months,  and  if  she  is  between  sixteen  and  sixteen  and  a half  years  of  age 
she  receives  $5.50. 

Q.  How  many  in  your  employ  are  receiving  $5.00  a week?  A.  On  this 
pay-roll  for  the  week  ending  March  8th,  we  had  119  between  _the  ages  of 
sixteen  and  sixteen  and  a half  years  receiving  no  more  than  $5.00  a week. 
This  includes  all  of  the  help  that  was  getting  that  wage. 

Q.  How  many,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  are  receiving  less  than  $8.00  a week? 
A.  Less  than  $8.00  a week?  You  want  to  know  exactly? 

Q.  Approximately,  in  round  numbers?  A.  In  round  numbers  there  are 
about  1,500. 

Q.  About  1,500  receiving  $8.00  a week?  A.  I can  give  you  that 
exactly  if  you  want  to  know  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  would  like  to  know  it  exactly.  A.  1,465. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Of  these  1,465  people,  how  many  are  living  at  home,  that  is,  with 
their  parents?  A.  Practically  all. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that?  A.  We  make  it  a point  not  to  hire  any 
girl  for  less  than  $8.00  a week  who  does  not  live  at  home. 

Q.  That  is,  when  she  makes  her  application  for  the  position  there  is 
a question  asked  as  to  whether  she  is  living  at  home  and  if  she  answers 
yes,  she  is  properly  qualified?  A.  I thing  that  fortifies  her  statement. 

Q.  How  many  people  have  3'ou  employed  as  investigators  for  the  pur- 
pose of  verifying  those  statements?  A.  I couldn’t  answer,  that  question. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  I think  Mr.  Miller 
could  probablj^  answer  the  question.  I might  ask  him. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Please  ask  him. 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  Mr.  Miller,  do  they  verify  those  statements? 

MR.  MILLER:  Yes,  thej"  are  verified. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Then  you  include  in  your  investigations  the  question  as  to  whether 
the  girl  is  living  at  home  as  stated  in  her  application  and  if  she  is  ascer- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


179 


tained  not  to  be  living  at  home  she  does  not  get  a job?  A.  We  try  to 
find  those  things  out. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  were  you  ever  a member  of  a committee  to  in- 
vestigate vice  conditions  in  this  or  any  other  community?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  that  commission,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  The  Chicago 
Vice  Commission. 

Q.  May  1 ask  Mr.  Rosenwald,  if  you  were  present  at  most  if  not  all 
of  the  sessions  of  that  commission?  A.  I was  present  at  a good  many  of 
them;  whether  I was  present  at  most  of  them  I do  not  remember,  but  I 
was  at  a great  many  of  them. 

Q.  And  at  the  sessions  at  which  you  were  present  was  any  testimony 
given  as  to  the  wages  paid  woman  workers  and  girl  workers?  A.  I wasn’t 
present  when  any  testimony  was  given  on  this  matter  because  the  testimony 
was  generally  given  to  a committee  before  the  discussion  that  came  befoie 
the  entire  committee.  I was  present  on  such  occasions. 

Q.  But  you  know  the  wage  question  was  gone  into  at  that  time  by 
that  commission?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  witnesses  appearing  before  that  com- 
mission stated  that  in  their  judgment  low  wages  did  have  something  to  do 
with  the  immoral  condition  of  women?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge.  I don’t 
know,  but  I believe  such  a statement  was  made. 

Q.  After  hearing  the  evidence  before  that  commission,  of  which  you 
were  a member,  did  you  make  any  recommendations  upon  the  wage  ques- 
tion? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  those  recommendations,  in  brief?  A.  I couldn’t  recite 
them  without  refreshing  my  memory  on  them. 

Q.  As  a result  of  that  investigation  were  wages  increased  in  the  City 
of  Chicago?  A.  That  is  more  than  I can  tell.  Whether  wages  were  in- 
creased on  account  of  that  or  as  a result  of  that  I would  not  be  able  to  say. 

Q.  Have  you  a key  to  the  so-called  vice  commission  of  Chicago?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  the  key?  Have  you  ever  seen  the  key?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  was  the  key  not  made  public?  A.  To  the  best  of  my  knowl- 

edge the  reason  w’as  that  a good  deal  of  the  information  that  had  been 
obtained  in  making  the  report  was  obtained  under  the  promise  that  con- 
fidence would  not  be  violated. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  woman  workers  over  sixteen  years 
and  under  twenty  years  of  age  by  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co?  A.  I don’t  think 
we  notice  the  age  above  eighteen  and  over  that  the  wages  paid  are  from 
$8.00  to  $21.00  a week. 

Q.  That  is,  from  seventeen  to  twenty?  A.  Yes;  that  is,  girls,  not 

women  who  are  heads  of  departments.  That  is  outside  of  heads  of 

departments.  There  are  a number  of  women  who  receive  a considerably 
higher  salary,  but  I do  not  think  they  appear  on  this  pay-roll.  There  are 
women  who  are  department  heads  who  do  not  appear  on  the  pay-roll. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  The  average  pay-roll  is  what,  Mr.  Rosen- 
wald? A.  $9.12. 

Q.  For  all  girls?  A.  Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Miller  will  you  be  sworn,  please? 

G.  H.  MILLER,  was  then  duly  sworn  by  the  secretary. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  what  is  the  highest  salary 
included  that  goes  to  make  up  this  average?  MR.  MILLER:  I can  give 
it  to  you. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  What  is  the  highest  salary  paid  any  woman 
worker  as  a department  head?  A.  About  thirty-five  dollars  a week. 
There  are  only  twenty-three  women  whose  average  is  twenty-six  dollars  a 
week. 

Q.  And  what  do  you  say  is  the  average  wage  paid  women  and  girl 
employes?  A.  $9.12  a week  is  the  avearge. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  what  is  the  wage  of  the  oldest  women  in  your 
employ?  A.  Up  to  fifty  dollars  a week. 


180  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  woman  heads  of  departments?  A.  We 
have  women  that  eret  from  $2,100.00  to  $2,400.00  and  probably  more  than 
that.  We  have  one  that  probably  gets  $3,000.00  a year. 

Q.  Is  it  possible,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  for  a girl  who  is  employed  at  $5.00 
a week  to  be  increased  from  time  to  time  until  she  earns  $3,000.00  a year? 
A.  It  is  entirely  possible. 

Q.  That  is,  the  possibility  is  left  to  her  to  be  increased  to  that 
amount?  A.  I should  say  so,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  instruct  any  head  of  a department  or  any  official 
in  your  establishment  to  investigate  the  cost  of  living  of  the  girls  working 
for  your  corporation?  A.  Not  that  I know  of  in  those  terms.  I do  not 
know  of  any  such  thing  now. 

Q.  Let  me  refresh  your  memory.  Four  j^ears  ago  did  Sears,  Roe- 
buck & Co.  institute  an  investigation  into  the  matter  of  a living  wage  for 
women?  MR.  MILLER:  Two  j^ears  ago,  governor. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Two  years  ago,  then,  such  an  investigation  was 
made  by  your  company?  MR.  ROSENWALD:  If  it  was  within  that  time 
I have  forgotten  it  entirely. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  You  knew  nothing  about  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  names  of  the  department  heads  serving  on 
that  board  of  investigation?  MR.  kllLLER:  A.  Not  off-hand. 

Q.  In  a general  way?  A.  (BY  kIR.  AIILLER):  Yes,  I remember 
one.  I remember  the  assistant  general  superintendent  and  the  advertising 
manager.  That  is  all  the  names  I can  recall  besides  mine. 

Q.  What  was  the  report  as  to  the  wages  of  girls?  A.  (BY  MR. 
MILLER):  The  reports  the  various  people  gave  us  ran  all  the  wa3'  from 
$7.50  to  $9.00  a week.  Our  recommendation  was  $8.00  a week. 

Q.  Now  Mr.  Rosenwald,  you  knew  nothing  at  all  of  that  investigation? 
A.  To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  no.  I might  have  known  at  the  time. 

Q.  At  that  time  you  were  president  of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  An  investigation  was  made  by  three  or  four  heads  of  departments 
of  your  corporation  and  they  found  that  $8.00  a week  was  a fair  mini- 
mum wage  for  women;  is  that  correct?  A.  I had  heard  of  these  reports, 
but  I did  not  know  anything  about  them  at  the  time. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  hear  about  that,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  The 
first  I can  remember  now  is  in  talking  over  this  matter  with  Air.  Aliller,  in 
the  last  two  or  three  days. 

THE  CHAIRAIAN:  Air.  Aliller  has  stated  that  girls  could  not  live 
on  less  than  $8.00  a week.  AIR.  ROSENWALD:  Girls  that  live  at  home. 

Q.  Since  this  investigation  was  made.  Air.  Rosenwald,  j'ou  know  of 
no  investigators  who  have  been  put  to  work  verifj-ing  the  statements  of 
girls  that  lived  at  home?  A.  I think  I so  stated. 

Q.  Then  if,  as  you  now  believe,  such  an  investigation  was  made  into 
the  cost  of  living  and  $8.00  was  fixed  by  your  own  department  heads  as  the 
minimum  amount  to  support  the  girl  adrift,  would  j-ou  say  there  were  no 
efforts  made  to  verify  the  statements  of  the  girls  that  they  were  not  depend- 
ent on  their  own  resources?  A.  I would  not  say  we  have  not  made  any 
efforts.  I do  not  know.  We  do  not  verify  them  at  the  time  that  the  girl  is 
employed. 

Q.  What  verification  is  made  later,  if  any?  A.  We  have  a sj’stem 
of  inquiry,  and  if  a girl  is  sick  we  send  a nurse  to  take  care  of  her. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a matter  of  common  report  that  if  the  application  shows  she 
does  not  live  at  home  she  is  refused  a position?  A.  Unless  that  girl  is 
worth  $8.00  a week  she  is  not  employed  unless  she  lives  at  home. 

Q.  Now,  Air.  Rosenwald,  you  are  a public  spirited  citizen  and  a bene- 
factor widely  known;  may  I ask  you  if  you  think  that  low  wages  have  an^'- 
thing  to  do  at  all  with  the  immorality  of  women  and  girls?  A.  I would 
answer  that  as  I said  before  the  vice  commission,  that  I think  the  question 
of  wages  and  prostitution  has  no  practical  connection.  I think  ihere  is  no 
connection  between  the  two. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


181 


Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  an  association  known  as  the  American 
Vigilance  Association?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  donated  any  money  to  assist  that  society  for  such  work 
as  it  was  doing  in  the  community?  A.  I was  one  of  the  directors  up  to 
the  time  they  disbanded  one  or  two  weeks  ago. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  William  Burgess?  A.  I cannot  place 
him  now. 

Q.  You  had  no  communication  with  him  or  with  any  other  gentleman 
that  was  formerly  connected  with  the  American  Vigilance  Association  within 
the  last  ten  days?  A.  I would  not  like  to  testify  under  oath  to  that, 
because  I meet  a great  many  people  and  may  have  met  Mr.  Burgess. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  communication  sent  to  the  chairman  of  this  com- 
mittee on  the  stationery  of  the  American  Vigilance  Association  suggesting 
that  this  committee  is  on  the  wrong  track  in  conducting  an  inquiry  into  the 
wages  paid  woman  workers?  A.  Absolutely  not.  I know  of  no  such  letter 
having  been  written. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  state  what  other  institutions,  if  any,  you  have 
aided  in  the  campaign  against  vice  in  this  community?  A.  If  there  are 
any,  I have  forgotten.  I would  not  be  able  to  remember. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  occasion  upon  which  any  individual  or  any 
organization  or  any  organized  society  with  which  you  were  affiliated  has 
associated  the  question  of  low  wages  with  vice?  A.  The  only  one  I re- 
member is  the  vice  commission. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  self-preservation  is  the  first  law  of  nature?  A. 
Well,  as  to  that  I should  say  yes. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  some  crimes  are  committed  because  of  want? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  a girl  who  wants  to  live  respectably  and  sup- 
port herself  can  live  on  less  than  $10.00  a week?  A.  I wouldn’t  want  to 
answer  that  question  ofT-hand. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  As  I stated,  I believe 
that  the  question  of  wages  has  no  connection  with  the  question  of  prostitu- 
tion. I believe  that  the  number  of  girls  that  .come  from  proper  homes 
and  proper  environments  are  just  as  liable  to  become  prostitutes  as  other 
girls,  whose  wages  r^nge  from  $8.00  up  as  from  $8.00  down  and  from 
$10.00  up  to  $10.00  down. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  if  a girl  has  ever  worked  in  your 
establishment  at  low  wages  and  had  to  get  nfoney  in  other  ways  because  of 
necessity?  Did  that  ever  happen?  A.  That  would  be  a very  difficult  thing 
to  say  whether  it  ever  happened. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  I don’t  believe  that  those 
cases  have  any  connection  with  it.  The  girl  that  gets  $10.00  a week  would 
be  just  as  likely  to  use  that  as  a subterfuge  as  the  girl  who  gets  a less  wage. 

Q.  Then  you  think  the  employer  who  pays  the  girl  less  than  a living 
wage  has  no  moral  responsibility  in  her  down-fall,  if  down-fall  there  be? 
A.  I would  say  that  one  had  no  connection  with  the  other. 

Q.  And  that  the  employer  had  no  moral  responsibility  for  her  down- 
fall? A.  I would  say  that  so  far  as  her  pay  is  concerned. 

Q.  Then  it  would  be  wholly  proper  and  morally  right  for  any  man  to 
pay  women  and  girls  less  than  living  wages?  A.  That  is  another  question. 
I am  referring  entirely  to  the  question  of  prostitution.  I say  the  question 
of  wages  isn’t  a moral  question.  It  ought  to  be  treated  on  an  entirely  dif- 
ferent basis.  I wouldn’t  combine  the  question  of  prostitution  with  wages. 
I say  in  my  opinion  there  is  no  connection  between  the  two. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  if  you  knew  that  women  employed  by  your  cor- 
poration could  not  decently  exist  on  the  wages  paid,  what  would  you  ao: 
A.  We  would  raise  their  wages. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  done  so?  A.  Many,  many  times. 

Q.  Do  you  think  $5.00  a week  is  sufficient  for  any  woman  to  live  on? 
A.  If  she  lives  at  home,  yes,  sir,  I do. 

Q.  It  is  sufficient?  A.  For  a girl  of  sixteen  or  under,  if  she  lives 
at  home  and  probably  has  the  help  of  her  family. 


182 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  And  $8.00  would  be  sufficient  say  for  a woman  of  twenty-five  years 
if  she  were  living  at  home?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  possibly  if  she  were  not 
living  at  home.  She  could  be  honest  and  might  live  on  $8.00  a week. 

Q.  On  $8.00  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  your  corporation  earn  during  the  last  fiscal  year? 
A.  I cannot  give  you  the  figures  exactly. 

Q.  Here  is  a statement  for  1911.  Is  that  correct,  Mr.  Rosenwald, 
according  to  your  memory?  (Handing  witness  paper.)  A.  I should  say 
that  that  is  approximately  correct,  as  near  as  I can  remember. 

Q.  Then  the  total  profits,  or  the  net  profits,  of  your  corporation  for 
the  fiscal  year  of  1911,  were  approximately  what  according  to  this  state- 
ment? A.  Something  over  $7,000,000.00. 

Q.  Could  you  apply  a generous  portion  of  these  profits  to  increase  the 
wages  of  employes  and  still  pay  your  stockholders  interest  on  the  money 
invested?  That  is  could  you  take  $2,000,000.00  from  the  total  profit  of 
$7,000,000.00  and  apply  it  to  the  wages  of  employes  and  still  pay  interest 
on  the  money  invested  in  your  business?  A.  The  question  of  interest  is 
hardly  applicable  because  the  value  of  the  shares  of  the  company  are  not 
entirely  represented  by  interest  on  „the  capital  invested;  but  I would  say 
we  could  take  $2,000,000.00  and  still  pay  some  dividend,  some  income  to  the 
shareholders  of  the  company. 

Q.  What  dividend  are  you  paying  now,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  We  are 
paying  now  7 per  cent  on  all  of  the  preferred  and  common  stock  of  the 
company. 

Q.  How  much  surplus  have  you  after  paying  that  dividend?  A.  1 
would  not  want  to  state  that  off-hand.  I am  not  just  sure  what  that  figures. 
I think  our  surplus,  according  to  our  books,  was  something  in  the  neighbor- 
hood of  $12,000,000.00  at  the  end  of  the  year  1912. 

Q.  According  to  this  statement  your  surplus  for  the  year  1911,  was 
$13,700,000.00?  A.  For  that  year,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  paying  7 per  cent  dividend.  Then  it  would  be  possible 
for  you  to  take  $2,000,000.00  of  this  surplus  and  give  it  to  your  employes? 
A.  It  would  be  entirely  possible,  yes. 

Q.  If  after  investigating  the  matter  yourself  you  reach  the  conclusion 
that  you  can  pay  the  girls  enough  money  to  live  on  decently  you  will  take 
money  from  the  surplus  fund  and  give  it  to  them  in  decent  wages?  A.  I 
wouldn’t  say  we  will  take  it  from  the  surplus  fund.  We  endeavor  to  pay 
all  our  employes  what  we  feel  is  fair  wages  and  will  always  continue  to 
do  so. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  me  ask  a few  question,  governor.  THE 
CHAIRMAN;  Very  well. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  have  you  as  an  employer,  living  here  under  the 
protection  of  the  law,  considered  what  is  fair?  A.  The  whole  subject. 

Q.  You  stated  you  would  increase  wages  to  what  you  thought  is  fair. 
I will  ask  you  if  you  in  your  gigantic  business,  and  being  under  the  pro- 
tection of  the  laws  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  have  you  considered  what  is 
fair?  Have  you  considered  that  the  state  has  any  interest  in  aiding  you 
in  arriving  at  what  is  fair?  A.  I do  not  think  I have  given  that  enough 

thought  to  answer  that  in  that  way.  I would  say  that  we  would  be  per- 

fectly willing  to  have  the  state  guide  us  in  fixing  the  wages,  and  we  would 
trjr  to  meet  the  views  of  the  state. 

Q.  If  you  do  not  mind  telling  us,  what  is  j^our  personal  income 
from  the  corporation?  A.  I would  not  want  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Could  you,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  live  on  $8.00  a week?  A.  That  is 
pretty  hard  to  tell  without  trjung. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  tried?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  I ever  tried. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  the  term, — I presume  it  is  a slang  term, — 

the  term  “Driver”  in  your  place?  A.  Not  that  I know  of. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


183 


Q.  What  title  do  you  then  give  to  the  men  and  women  who  superin- 
tend the  work  of  your  employes  to  see  that  they  are  kept  constantly  busy? 
A.  I don’t  know  that  we  have  any  such. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact  haven’t  you  heard  such  officials  referred  to  as 
“Drivers?”  A.  No,  sir,  I have  not. 

Q.  What  do  the  girls  call  them?  A.  Not  being  a girl,  I could  not 
tell  you. 

Q.  You  apparently  do  not  look  at  things  from  the  girls’  standpoint? 
A.  I have  no  knowledge  of  any  such  condition  existing. 

Q.  What  are  the  working  hours  of  your  girls?  A.  The  girls  under 
sixteen  work  eight  hours  a day  I think,  and  those  over  sixteen  work  eight 
and  three-quarters  hours  or  over. 

MR.  MILLER:  That  is  the  average. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  What  is  the  maximum?  MR.  MILLER:  Nine  and  one-quarter 
hours  is  the  daily  maximum. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  That  is  the  legal  maximum?  MR.  ROSEN- 
WALD:  No,  the  legal  maximum  is  ten  hours.  They  work  about  four 
hours  less  in  summer. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  I am  going  to  read  from  a letter  unsigned  received 
by  the  committee  this  morning.  “I  want  to  inform  you  of  one  of  the 
things  at  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.  There  are  a number  of  Polish  or  Bohemian 
girls  employed  in  this  firm  who  are  compelled  to  work  twelve  or  more  hours 
a day,  reporting  at  6 A.  M.  and  they  are  reported  as  8 A.  M.  The  same 
game  is  being  played  on  their  hours  of  departure.  This  is  an  absolute  fact, 
denial  or  no  denial.”  Is  that  true?  A.  I can’t  say,  if  it  is  unsigned. 

Q.  Is  that  true  or  not?  A.  It  is  not  true,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge 
and  belief. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  committee  has  received  any  number  of  letters 
from  girls  claiming  to  be  employes  in  different  establishments  in  Chicago, 
saying  it  ds  impossible  for  them  to  sign  their  names.  The  committee  will 
bring  these  letters  in  and  ask  as  to  the  truthfulness  or  untruthfulness  of 
the  statements.  The  committee  does  not  regard  this  as  evidence,  the  letters 
being  unsigned. 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  I would  like  to  state  for  the  benefit  of  the  com- 
mittee that  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.  would  welcome  a visit  from  the  committee, 
and  the  questioning  of  any  employes  in  connection  with  the  institution.  I 
would  also  like  them  to  have  this  information,  that  all  of  our  employes  who 
have  been  in  our  employ  five  years  or  more  receive  on  the  anniversary 
of  their  engagement  in  the  service  an  additional  compensation  of  from  5 
per  cent  to  10  per  cent  of  their  yearly  earnings.  I would  also  like  to 
state  for  the  benefit  of  the  committee  that  over  one  thousand  of  our 
women  employes  have  saving  accounts,  and  a goodly  number  are  stock- 
holders in  the  company. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Suppose,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  a girl  is  a little  slower  or  more  careless 
than  her  fellow  workers,  what  method  have  you  to  see  that  she  does  as 
much  work  as  her  sister  worker?  A.  I don’t  know  that  we  have  any 
particular  method. 

Q.  That  would  not  be  the  duty  of  the  so-called  “Driver?”  A.  Not  to 
the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a fact  then  that  a girl  who  is  not  doing  as  much  as  your 
standard  requires  is  sent  to  this  so-called  official  scolder?  A.  I don’t  know 
that  we  have  any  such  condition. 

Q.  You  are,  of  course,  familiar  with  the  various  departments  in  your 
place  of  business?  A.  I should  say  so;  I don’t  know  everything  about  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  “Drivers”  where  girls  are  employed  in  em- 
broidery work?  A.  No,  sir. 


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Q.  Does  your  corporation  advertise  for  girl  help  in  the  classified 
columns  of  the  daily  and  Sunday  newspapers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  the  use  of  such  advertisements  do  you  keep  the  labor  markets 
over-stocked?  A.  I never  heard  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  a man  now  in  charge  of  that  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  in  charge  of  Department  170?  A.  He  has  been  up  to  within 
a few  days. 

Q.  Is  he  in  the  city  at  the  present  time?  A.  He  is  in  the  room  now. 
Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Lessing  J.  Rosenwald. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Will  you  be  sworn,  please? 

Mr.  Lessing  J.  Rosenwald’s  Testimony. 

LESSING  J.  ROSENWALD,  after  having  been  duly  sworn  by  Senator 
Juul,  testified  as  follows: 


' EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  Give  your  name  to  the  reporter.  A.  Lessing 
J.  Rosenwald. 

Q.  You  are  in  charge  of  Department  170,  of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.? 
A.  I was. 

Q.  Until  what  time?  A.  Until  today. 

Q.  Have  you  recently  served  notice  to  the  girls  working  in  that  de- 
partment, a notice  of  any  nature  at  all?  A.  I have. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that  notice?  A.  Various  notices  go  about 
the  department,  frequently,  not  any  particular  bearing  that  I have  an^ 
idea  of,  but  anything  that  would  interest  that  department  as  a whole.  It 
usually  goes  from  the  manager’s  office  of  that  department. 

Q.  Did  you  serve  a notice  concerning  wages?  A.  I did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  serve  a notice  that  girls  now  being  paid  $10.00  or  more  a 

week  must  hand  in  their  resignation  within  the  next  two  weeks?  A.  1 did 
net. 

Q.  You  make  that  statement  under  oath?  A.  I make  that  statement 
under  oath. 

Q.  Have  you  within  the  last  week  or  two  discharged  anj-  women 
drawing  $10.00  a week  or  in  that  neighborhood?  A.  I have. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  discharged?  A.  I discharged  one  and  I 
asked  for  the  resignation  of  one,  but  not  because  they  were  earning  $10.00 
a week. 

Q.  In  those  two  cases  did  the  substitutes  get  $10.00  a week?  A.  They 

did  not  have  any  direct  successors,  so  I could  not  name  their  salarj^  I did 

it  in  this  manner.  I told  these  two  girls  that  under  the  conditions  we  would 
give  them  two  weeks  before  asking  for  their  resignation.  One  of  them 
said  she  would  like  to  resign  and  I said  she  might.  The  other  one  is  still 
there. 

Q.  When  you  discharge  a girl  drawing  $10.00  a week,  do  3'ou  fill  her 
place  with  a girl  for  $6.00  a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  never  done  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  all.  Thank  you.  Senator  Juul,  will  j'ou 
proceed  with  the  witness? 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald’s  Testimony  Continued. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  you  have  clothing  in  \'Our  place  of  business  of 
different  kinds?  A.  All  kinds  of  clothing,  for  men  and  women. 

Q.  You  are  thoroughly  familiar  with  the  cost  of  clothing,  shoes, 
underclothing  and  everything  of  that  line?  A.  I wouldn’t  saj'  I was 
thoroughly  familiar  with  it. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


185 


Q.  You  have  an  idea  of  the  value  of  them?  A.  I have  some  idea, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  would  you  say  that  a woman  could  buy  her  clothing,  shoes, 
underclothes  and  necessary  food  and  pay  for  laundry  and  carfare  and  make 
some  slight  provision  for  sickness — do  you  say  that  can  be  done  on  $5.00 
a week.  A.  If  she  lives  at  home  and  contributes  that  to  her  family,  I 
should  say  so;  if  she  is  assisting  in  the  family  and  not  dependent  entirely 
on  her  own  resources. 

Q.  And  if  she  is  dependent  on  her  own  resources,  you  pay  her  more 
for  ber  services?  A.  It  depends  altogether  on  what  she  does.  If  she  is 
at  home  with  her  family,  they  board  her. 

Q.  I am  trying  to  get  at  this:  what  becomes  of  the  young  woman, 
in  the  service  of  a mercantile  establishment  who  has  a home  where  the 
wage  of  the  father  is  barely  sufficient  to  keep  the  members  of  that  family? 
Mr.  Rosenwald,  would  you  figure  that  if  the  head  of  the  family  was  un- 
able out  of  his  wages  to  contribute  to  her  living,  that  a female  employe 
would  be  able  to  live  and  get  the  necessary  food  and  so  forth?  A.  I would 
like  to  answer  that  in  this  way,  that  if  she  is  living  at  home  where  there 
is  no  other  person  earning — 

Q.  No,  but  where  there  is  another  one  earning  a wage  barely  suffi- 
cient? A.  I should  say  that  would  add  very  materially  to  the  keeping 
up  of  the  home.  For  example,  a girl  earning  $12.00  a week,  or  $5.50  or  $6.00 
a week,  that  would  add  materially  to  the  comforts  of  the  home. 

Q.  You  think  $5.00  is  not  sufficient  to  maintain  herself  on?  A.  I 
didn’t  say  that.  I said  if  she  pays  no  board.  I know  that  women  get  room 
and  board  in  respectable  good  surroundings,  for  $3.50  and  $4.00  a week. 

Q.  Have  you  any  system  of  following  these  girls  to  their  various 
homes  to  see  if  they  are  living  at  home  and  whether  that  girl  is  living 
a moral  life  and  contributing  to  the  support  of  the  family?  A.  We  have 
no  means  of  investigation. 

Q.  Then,  if  the  home  is  not  a comfortable  home,  you  come  right 
back  to  the  original  principle  that  the  girl  must  live  on  what  she  earns, 
isn’t  that  right,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  I would  not  say  that  entirely,  be- 
cause that  home  is  rented  and  food  is  provided  for  the  family  whether  she 
earns  any  money  or  not. 

Q.  What  in  your  opinion  would  be  the  cost  to  any  girl  who  receives 
$5.00  a week  if  she  lives  at  home  where  the  father  is  unable  to  aid  her  in 
any  way?  A.  If  he  is  working  and  earns  enough  to  pay  the  rent  and 
the  heat  and  gets  the  food  for  that  home,  I say  that  this  $5.00  a week 
would  add  materially  to  the  help  of  the  family  so  that  they  can  live  better 
than  they  could  if  she  did  not  work  and  did  not  earn  this  $5.00  a week. 

Q.  Now  Mr.  Rosenwald,  do  you  figure  that  there  is  any  good  reason 
v'hy  a young  woman,  any  more  than  a young  man,  should  give  her  entire 
time  during  one  entire  week  to  your  or  any  other  concern  in  the  City  of  Chi- 
cago, for  wages  for  her  services  for  less  than  she  could  keep  herself  clothed 
and  properly  fed  and  have  a comfortable  bed  to  sleep  in?  A.  I should 
say  there  are  reasons,  that  is,  competition  that  might  bring  about  such  a 
condition.  I would  not  say  it  was  wholesale. 

Q.  What  I want  to  lead  up  to,  looking  at  this  statement  of  your 
earnings  of  $8,500,000  and  where  you  pay  a dividend  and  there  are  one 
hundred  girls  each  receiving  $5.00  per  week,  suppose  it  would  take 
$260,000  per  year  to  give  one  thousand  girls  $5.00  a week- — would  you 
say  in  view  of  that  statement  that  this  $260,000  added  to  the  wages  of 
the  employes  would  materially  interfere  with  the  profits  or  dividends 
declared  by  your  company  on  the  $8,500,000?  A.  I would  say  that  we 
should  be  glad  to  do  that  if  that  should  be  permanent. 

Q.  That  is  right,  but  would  you  say  that  that  additional  payment  of 
$260,000  in  one  year  to  one  thousand  girls  would  materially  interfere  with 
the_  earning  capacity  of  your  concern  or  prevent  you  from  meeting  com- 
petition with  similar  concerns  in  the  United  States,  when  the  earnings 
show  $8,500,000 — would  you  say  that  competition  comes  into  that  proposi- 
tion at  all?  A.  I think  it  does. 

Q.  To  what  extent?  A.  Because  in  years  when  we  might  make 


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these  earnings  we  might  be  able  to  afford  it,  but  in  years  when  we  might 
not  make  these  earnings  we  could  not  afford  it. 

Q.  Well,  would  you  say  that  taking  $8,500,000  as  the  earnings  for  the 
stockholders,  would  you  say  that  in  using  $260,000  to  pay  one  thousand 
girls  an  additional  $5.00  a week,  to  keep  the  girls  off  the  streets  and  to 
give  them  a good  living,  would  you  say  that  would  be  reasonable?  A.  I 
would  say  it  would  be  entirely  in  our  province  to  give  all  our  earnings  to 
our  help. 

Q.  That  isn’t  the  question,  Mr.  Rosenwald.  Let  us  be  fair  with  one 
another.  I mean  to  be  fair  with  you.  A.  I shall  try  to  be  fair. 

Q.  We  are  not  here  to  annoy  you  and  we  do  not  mean  to.  I want 
to  try  to  see  what  the  condition  is  in  the  City  of  Chicago,  and  to  find  out 
what  is  right.  What  I want  to  find  out  is  this:  Would  it  be  possible  to 
take  the  lowest  wage  earners  in  your  institution  and  take  care  of  them 
by  paying  the  lowest  paid  girl  or  woman  $5.00  a week?  A.  We  pay  no 
woman  $5.00  a week,  nothing  but  girls  under  sixteen  years  of  age. 

Q.  Well,  if  a girl  is  getting  $5.00  a week  and  she  is  increased  to 
$10. OO  a week,  do  you  think  that  that  would  enable  her  to  live  honestly 
and  decently  and  support  herself?  A.  I can’t  say  that  it  would 
necessarily. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  there  is  any  way  for  the  State  of  Illinois,  and  the 
manufacturers  of  Illinois,  coming  together  without  legislation,  or  do  you 
think  that  if  legislation  were  enacted  it  would  be  contested?  A.  That  would 
be  a difficult  question  for  me  to  answer,  if  it  would  be  contested.  I know 
if  it  were  enacted  into  law  we  should  live  up  to  the  enactment  of  the  law. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  legislation  of  that  kind,  on  the  ground  of 
competition  or  otherwise,  would  seriously  cripple  )'our  business  or  any 
business?  A.  I think  it  would  cripple  any  business.  It  might  not  cripple 
ours,  but  it  might  cripple  others.  I want  to  be  perfectly  fair  in  mj'-  answers. 
I believe  in  a great  many  cases  it  would  put  Illinois  in  a position  where  it 
could  not  compete  with  other  states. 

Q.  Here  is  something  that  this  committee  has  been  confronted  with 
from  day  to  day,  that  one  of  the  chief  reasons  for  . the  existence  of  the 
White  Slave  traffic  is  that  a girl  is  underpaid  and  becomes  an  easy  victim  be- 
cause she  is  underfed  and  underclothed.  We  are  trying  to  get  a remed3'  for 
this  and  will  be  glad  to  have  anj'  suggestion  from  3"ou.  A.  I have  made  quite 
a study  of  that  subject.  It  is  a thing  I have  got  a little  interest  in,  but  a 
great  deal  depends  on  the  cause  and  effect.  I think  a great  deal  depends 
on  the  environments.  I don’t  believe  that  the  question  of  wages  is  the 
only  thing.  I will  give  it  as  my  honest  opinion,  and  I have  no  desire  to 
minimize  the  necessity  for  paying  girls  wages  that  are  absolutel3’  fair,  and  I 
want  to  do  so,  but  I conscientiously  believe  and  stated  to  the  Vice  Com- 
mittee at  the  time  that  question  was  up  that  I did  not  believe  that  the  two 
hinged  materially  on  one  another  at  all. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  you  testified  as  to  home  environments.  Do  3’ou 
believe  that  a girl  whose  wage  is  $5.50  a week  and  whose  father  is  working 
and  who  practically  pays  out  all  that  he  earns,  do  3-ou  believe  that  the 
home  environments  can  be  such  as  to  afford  that  girl  a comfortable  home 
on  that  amount  of  wage?  A.  I should  sa3'  that  there  are  ver3-  respectable 
people  earning  small  wages  who  are  just  as  moral  and  in  man3-  cases  more 
so  than  the  wealthier  classes. 

Q.  You  don’t  think,  Mr.  Rosenwald.  that  3-our  concern  would  be  one 
of  a number,  seriously  to  contest  a minimum  wage  bill  if  a minimum  wage 
bill  were  enacted  and  came  within  reasonable  lines?  A.  Our  polic3’'  has  been 
and  now  is,  not  to  attack  any  legislation  that  would  benefit  our  help  or  that 
would  benefit  the  community.  I cannot  say  that  that  would  be  an  injustice 
to  anybody. 

Q.  Mr.  Rosenwald,  would  it  serious^'  interfere  with  3-our  business^  to 
increase  the  minimum  wage  to  the  figures  that  we  have  been  discussing 
here,  if  all  business  were  placed  in  the  same  position  and  made  to  pa3- 
similar  wages?  A.  If  it  were  a national  law  and  the  other  states  were  in 
line  with  this  policy  in  Illinois,  our  business  in  particular  would  not  suffer, 
but  where  competition  is  regulated  b3-  an  Illinois  law  and  we  have  to  pa3-  a 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


187 


minimum  of  $12.00  a week  wage  and  Indiana  would  have  no  minimum 
wage  law,  I think  the  business  in  Illinois  would  be  seriously  hampered. 

Q.  To  come  back  to  my  original  proposition,  do  you  think  a busi- 
ness of  the  size  of  yours  would  be  injured  by  competition  with  merchants 
in  a similar  business  if  that  amount  of  wage  was  levied?  A.  In  our 
particular  business  I think  it  would  be  injured  less  than  any  other  business. 

Q.  You  realize  that  the  business  of  this  committee  is  to  insist  and  to 
see  that  girls  employed  in  Illinois  are  well  paid?  A.  That  is  the  reason 
I make  this  statement  as  I do,  because  of  the  interest  I have  in  the 
matter. 

Q.  We  are  trying  to  resolve  ourselves  into  a committee  on  ways  and 
means  to  right  this  wrong,  to  see  whether  we  can  do  something  for  the 
people  who  are  unfortunate.  A.  You  will  not  find  me  antagonistic. 

(The  witness  was  excused  temporarily.) 

Eleanor  Benson’s  Testimony. 

ELEANOR  BENSON,  called  as  witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 
by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  State  your  name.  A.  Eleanor  Benson. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  employed  by  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company?  A.  I 

was. 

Q.  How  long  ago  is  it  since  you  left  their  employ?  A.  I left 
about  seven  months  ago,  the  first  part  of  August,  I believe. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  in  their  employ?  A.  I did  addressing  and 
office  work. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  paid?  A.  I was  paid  $4.50  to  start  with 
and  when  I left  I was  getting  seven  dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  long  ago  were  you  paid  $4.50  a week?  A.  About  three 
years  ago;  April  25,  1910,  I started. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work  for  $4.50  a week  until  you  were  raised 
to  five  dollars  a week?  A.  I had  worked  before  I was  raised  to  five 
dollars  about  seven  months. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  at  that  time?  A.  I was  fourteen  years  old. 
I would  be  fifteen  in  August  and  I started  in  April. 

Q.  You  were  fourteen  years  old  when  you  entered  there  and  were 
employed  at  $4.50  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  state  your  correct  age  to  the  gentleman  who  employed 
you  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  knew  that  you  were  only  fourteen  years  old?  A.  Yes, 
fourteen  years  and  seven  months. 

Q.  May  I ask  if  in  your  experience  there  any  of  the  girls  were 
a little  bit  slow  or  a little  careless,  what  happened  to  them?  A.  They 
used  to  get  scolded. 

Q.  ■ Girls  fourteen  and  sixteen  years  old?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  they  have  what  were  called  “scolders”?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they 
were  known  as  “official  scolders.” 

Q.  Were  the  girls  called  before  these  “official  scolders”  or  “drivers”? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I would  see  them  crying. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  seen  girls  crying  because  of  these 
scoldings  administered  to  them?  A.  I should  say  three  times  a week. 

Q.  The  same  girl  or  different  girls?  A.  Different  girls. 

Q.  Because  the  girls  were  sometimes  slow?  A.  Yes,  quite  often 
and  sometimes  because  they  didn’t  get  as  much  work  out  of  the  girls. 

Q.  How  many  girls  working  with  you  at  Sears,  Roebuck  & Com- 
pany did  you  know  fairly  well?  A.  I could  not  say;  thirty  or  forty, 
perhaps. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  girls  were  living  at  home  with  their  parents? 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


A.  About  half,  I guess.  Some  were  boarding  with  friends  and  others 
were  boarding  where  they  could. 

Q.  Were  the  other  girls  getting  about  the  same  wage  you  received? 
A.  Some  were  getting  six  dollars  and  a half  and  some  seven  and  some 
were  getting  eight  dollars. 

Q.  How  did  they  manage  to  exist?  A.  Well,  they  used  to  get 
friends  to  help  them. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  friends  to  help  them?  A.  I know^  a girl 
that  was  caught  by  men  once. 

Q.  You  girls  tried  to  keep  yourselves  in  clothing  and  so  forth? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  the  best  we  could. 

Q.  How  old  are  you  now?  A.  I am  seventeen;  I wdll  be  eighteen 
in  August. 

Q.  You  are  living  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  working  now?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I am  in  the  telephone 
company. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  making  there?  A.  I am  making  about  nine 
dollars  a w'eek.  We  get  a raise  every  tw'o  months. 

THE  CHAIRMAN  (addressing  Mr.  Julins  Rosenwald):  Mr. 
Rosenwald,  the  reason  w'e  introduce  the  witness  at  this  time  is  in  order 
to  make  you  familiar  wdth  the  conditions  that  these  girls  tell  us  exist  at 
your  establishment.  We  believe  you  desire  to  co-operate  with  us  as  we 
desire  to  co-operate  with  you.  MR.  ROSENWALD:  I am  glad  to  do 
anything  I can. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Governor,  I deem  it  proper  to  say  that  I think 
Mr.  Rosenwald  has  made  a very  willing  and  courteous  witness  here  today. 
I don’t  know^  that  w'e  have  asked  Mr.  Rosenwald  anj^thing  that  he  has 
positively  refused  to  ausw-er. 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  No,  I want  the  committee  to  understand  that 
I am  at  their  service  and  our  company  wdll  be  glad  to  do  anything  they 
can  to  assist. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Rosenwald,  you  are  excused  until  2:30 
o’clock  this  afternoon,  but  you  need  not  come  unless  notified.  We  wdll 
notify  you  if  w'e  want  you  at  that  time. 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  If  you  will  notify  me  half  an  hour  in  advance. 

Emily  Houck’s  Testimony. 

EMILY  HOUCK,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  dulj’  sworn 
by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  employed  by  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  is  it  since  you  left  their  employ?  A.  August  12, 
1912. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  entered  their  employ?  A.  Six- 
teen years  old. 

Q.  At  wdiat  wage  were  you  employed?  A.  Seven  dollars  a week. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  your  employment?  A.  I was  em- 
ployed as  an  addresser. 

Q.  Why  did  3fOU  leave?  A.  Because  I got  a better  position. 

Q.  When  girls  working  wdth  you  were  a little  slow'  or  a little  care- 
less, what  happened  to  them?  A.  They  got  a good  scolding. 

Q.  Will  you  describe  to  the  committee  just  what  x'ou  mean  bj'  getting 
a scolding,  what  w'as  said?  A.  I could  not  exactly  repeat  the  words  that 
were  used  but  the  girls  used  to  come  up  there. 

SENATOR  JLTUL,  come  up  where?  A.  Up  to  the  foreladx-’s  desk 
and  she  w'ould  tell  them  they  positively  had  to  turn  out  so  much  work 
or  thei^  would  have  to  leave  the  employ  and  the}'  w'ould  get  somebody 
else  to  take  their  place  and  the  girls  left  there  crying. 


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189 


I EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

} Q.  As  a result  of  that  scolding  did  you  ever  see  any  girls  cry?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  many  times. 

Q.  Would  you  say  every  day  you  saw  some  one  weep?  A.  I can’t 
say  every  day. 

' Q.  Was  that  scolding,  as  a matter  of  fact,  any  more  severe  than 
parents  ordinarily  give?  A.  I never  heard  any  parent  speak  to  any  girl 
the  way  that  forelady  spoke  to  some  of  her  girls. 

Q.  Did  this  forelady  ever  put  her  hands  on  the  girls?  A.  No,  but 
she  pounded  on  the  desk. 

Q.  She  pounded  on  the  desk?  A.  Yes,  she  would  pound  on  the 
desk. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  You  saw  that  the  girls  were  scolded  and  told  if  they  didn’t  do 
more  work  they  would  be  discharged  and  they  went  away  crying?  A. 

^ Yes,  sir. 

IQ.  Did  they  have  any  drinking  water  there?  A.  We  had  to  take 
it  out  of  the  hydrant  and  if  we  wanted  any  other  kind  of  water  we  had 
to  pay  for  it. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  pay  for  it?  A.  Ten  cents  every  two  weeks. 
Q.  How  many  girls  paid  the  ten  cents  every  two  weeks?  A.  Quite 
a few  of  them;  I didn’t  myself. 

Q.  This  water  that  was  given  you,  was  it  pretty  fair  water?  A.  It 
didn’t  taste  so  well.  Sometimes  it  had  a bad  taste. 

Q.  You  got  better  water  when  you  paid  ten  cents  every  two  weeks? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  any  girls  working  with  you  for  less  than  five 
dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir,- — less  than  five  dollars?  I can’t  say  as  to 
that,  but  some  got  less  than  my  salary.  The  reason  I got  better  salary 
was  because  I went  to  the  high  school. 

EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  You  knew  most  of  those  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  were  living  at  home  with  their  parents?  A. 
About  half. 

Q.  More  than  half?  A.  I couldn’t  say.  They  seemed  to  be  pretty 
well  divided  up. 

Q.  You  knew  some  girls  that  were  not  living  at  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  How  were  those  girls  living  who  did  not  live  at  home?  A.  I 
couldn’t  say. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  girl  there  who  was  having  a pretty  hard 
time  to  get  along?  A.  Yes,  sir,  there  was  a girl  living  at  home,  but  her 
father  was  dead. 

Q.  Was  she  the  suport  of  her  mother?  A.  She  lived  with  her  mother 
and  two  sisters.  She  supported  the  family. 

Q.  Where  did  this  girl,  her  mother  and  two  sisters  live?  A.  In  a 
furnished  room. 

Q.  How  much  did  she  make?  A.  Five  dollars  a week.  There  was  one 
thing  that  was  very  pathetic  about  her.  She  wanted  to  do  something  else 
but  her  salary  was  small  and  she  appealed  to  me  because  she  was  a oright 
girl. 

Q.  Was  this  girl  ever  brought  before  the  “scolder?”  A.  Yes,  sir, 
many  times.  She  was  scolded  until  she  wept. 

Q.  She  was  scolded  more  than  any  other  girl?  A.  Yes,  sir.  She  had 
a very  hard  time. 

Q.  She  talked  over  her  misfortune  and  you  sympathized  with  her? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  We  have  had  some  philosophy  here  from  a great  many  people  and 
we  want  your  philosophy.  Would  you  blame  a girl  who  was  making  $5.00  to 


190  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

$7.00  a week  and  was  being  scolded,  would  you  blame  the  girl  if  she  left? 
A.  No. 

Q.  If  a tragedy  occurred  to  mar  her  life,  would  you  place  the  first 
blame  on  the  girl  or  on  her  employer?  A.  I wouldn’t  excuse  the  girl,  but 
I think  her  employer  would  be  most  to  blame. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  What  was  said  at  the  time  you  started  there  for  the  reason  for 
giving  you  more  salary?  A.  Because  I had  a high  school  education  and  I 
was  a good  penman. 

Q.  You  could  take  a better  position  than  the  average  girl  could  on 
account  of  your  education?  A.  1 suppose  so. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  witness  is  excused.  The  committee  will  take 
a recess  until  2:30  o’clock.  All  persons  who  are  not  members  of  the  com- 
mittee are  requested  to  leave  the  room,  as  the  committee  desires  to  hold 
an  executive  session.  Members  of  the  legislature  are  privileged  to  remain. 


Chicago,  Friday,  March  7,  1913. 

Thereupon,  at  12  :05  o’clock,  the  Commission  went  into  Executive 
Session,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

P M ’s  Testimony. 

P M— , called  as  a witness,  having  been  duly  sworn  by 

Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

MRS.  ALDRICH:  This  lady  is  very  nervous  and  she  wants  every- 
thing to  be  private  and  wishes  no  publicity  given  to  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  there  any  objection  to  giving  your  name?  THE 
WITNESS:  No,  I don’t  want  to  give  my  name. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Then,  give  your  initials  to  the  reporter.  THE 
WITNESS:  P.  M. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  may  just  go  ahead  and  tell  3'our  stor^-.  I 
told  you  it  would  be  private,  and  it  will  be. 

THE  WITNESS:  When  I first  left  my  home,  I went  to  live  with  ray 
sister-in-law  in  the  country.  I lived  there  for  a few  months  and  they 
brought  me  to  Chicago. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  How  long  is  that  since.  Madam?  A.  That  has  been  six  or  seven 
years  ago,  as  far  as  I can  remember.  They  brought  me  lO  Chicago  and 
left  me  at  a house  and  I was  supposed  to  stay  there  until  thej'  came  for 
me.  It  wasn’t  a very  nice  house.  They  were  always  “rushing  the  can’’  and 
it  seemed  there  was  a midwife  there.  1 wanted  to  leave  that  place  and  thej' 
didn’t  want  me  to  go.  I didn’t  have  ver^-  much  monej'. 

Q.  Where  was  that  place?  A.  On  North  Maj’  street. 

Q.  Near  what  other  street?  A.  Near  Madison  street.  So  I left  there. 
I met  a woman  and  she  asked  me  what  I was  going  to  do.  I said  I really 

didn’t  know.  I didn’t  have  much  experience  with  housework.  She  asked 

me  why  I didn’t  go  in  a sporting  house.  I didn’t  know  what  she  meant. 
So  she  didn’t  want  to  come  right  out  and  tell  me.  So  I met  her  the  next 
day  and  she  told  me  I was  foolish.  She  said  that  a nice  looking  girl  like 
me  ought  to  go  in  a sporting  house,  because  I could  make  lots  of  money. 
I told  her  I didn’t  know  where  to  go.  She  told  me  to  walk  on  Madison 
street  until  some  nice  fellow  come  by  and  asked  me  to  up  to  a room  with 
him.  I told  her  I left  my  room  and  I didn’t  have  no  more  money.  She 
told  me  then  what  to  do  and  I tried  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Just  one  question.  Had  you  ever  before  taken 
that  course?  A.  No,  sir.  She  talked  to  me  and  she  said  a man  would  come 


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191 


ip  to  me  and  would  see  me  walking  up  and  down  the  street  and  ask  me  to 
go  to  a hotel  with  him. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Q.  How  long  is  that  since,  Madam?  A..  That  is 
six  or  seven  years  ago. 

Q.  That  was  the  start  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  then?  A.  Sixteen,  going  on  seventeen,  but  ... 
was  big  for  my  age. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  You  were  not  induced  by  any  man  to  go 
to  a place  with  him?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Go  on  with  your  story.  A.  This  man  came 
up  and  asked  me  to  have  a drink  with  him.  1 told  him  I didn’t  care  to 
drink,  that  I never  drank  anything.  He  took  me  to  a hotel  and  it  was  at 
night  and  I stayed  there  that  night. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  hotel  it  was?  A.  No,  sir,  it  was  on  Madison 
street,  that  is  all  that  1 know.  So  we  stayed  there  and  1 asked  him  if  there 
was  a decent  sporting  house.  Of  course,  none  of  them  are  decent,  but  he 
told  me  “yes,”  to  go  to  this  place  on  Madison  street,  that  Jessie  Gibbs  had  a 
place  there,  and  this  fellow  took  me  there;  so  I stayed  there,  1 guess  it 
must  have  been  something  like  eight  or  nine  months,  maybe  a little  longer. 
1 didn’t  like  it  at  all,  but  I didn’t  know  what  to  do.  So  I met  a man,  he 
came  in  several  times  to  see  me  and  he  asked  why  I didn’t  try  to  lead  a 
better  life.  I told  him  it  was  hard  when  you  once  get  down.  He  said,  “If 
you  come  over  with  me  I will  take  care  of  you.”  Of  course,  I was  glad 
to  get  out  of  there  and  I went  to  live  with  this  fellow.  I guess  it  must 
have  been  over  two  years  I lived  with  him.  I didn’t  know  he  had  a wife. 
He  wanted  to  get  a divorce  and  marry  me.  He  said  she  was  a desperate 
women.  When  he  told  me  that  I was  afraid  to  live  with  him  any  longer. 
So  I left  him  and  never  seen  him  again.  Then  1 tried  to  live  respectable 
and  got  a job  in  a family  doing  housework.  They  gave  me  $3.00  a week.  1 
couldn’t  very  well  clothe  myself.  1 worked  for  them  I don’t  know  how 
many  weeks  and  they  wouldn’t  give  me  any  money.  So  I got  up  and  left 
and  went  to  live  with  some  people  I knew.  Then  I met  a fellow  who  took 
me  on  the  South  Side  and  sold  me  there. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  saying  he  sold  you? 
A.  He  sold  me.  He  got  money  for  me,  at  a place  called  the  “Silver 
Dollar.” 

Q.  Who  paid  the  money?  A.  The  man. 

Q.  Was  it  a saloon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  is  that  since — was  it  this  year?  A.  No. 

Q.  Was  it  last  year?  A.  No,  five  or  six  years  ago. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  money  he  got? 
A.  No,  I don’t.  So  I didn’t  want  to  stay  there.  He  doped  me  and  1 
didn’t  have  my  right  senses.  I was  there,  I guc.ss,  maybe  three  days. 

Q.  You  were  not  in  the  saloon,  were  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  three  days?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  a place  upstairs. 

Q.  Oh,  a place  over  the  saloon?  A.  Yes,  sir.  So  I made  such  a fuss 
I guess  they  finally  got  afraid  and  he  took  me  away  and  he  took  me  to  a 
place  on  Halsted  street.  I think  it  was  the  corner  of  Washington  Boulevard 
and  Halsted  street.  He  took  me  to  a hotel.  He  telephoned  to  some  friend 
that  had  a place  way  out  South.  Finally  we  got  to  arguing  so  much 
around  the  hotel,  they  put  us  out.  We  were  chewing  the  rag,  and  arguing 
so,  they  put  us  out.  We  went  to  another  place  on  Madison  street;  that  was 
340  Madison  street.  He  got  something  for  me  there,  but  I don’t  know 

what  he  got.  He  ducked  out  the  next  morning.  That  time  I had  to  have 

clothes,  so  I was  advanced  the  money. 

Q.  You  had  to  have  clothes  and  she  advanced  you  the  money? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  this  man?  A.  I don’t  know  his  last  name,  but  his 
first  name  was  Jack. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  is?  A.  No,  I don’t. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  I was  there  a couple  of 


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weeks  when  I got  down  sick  with  a terrible  disease.  They  have  a porter 
in  the  house,  and  of  course,  I was  under  the  influence  of  liquor  or  I never 
would  have  done  such  a thing;  so  this  landlady  gets  me  married  to  the 
porter  of  the  house  and  he  took  all  my  money. 

Q.  Was  the  porter  a white  man  or  a colored  man?  A.  He  was  a 
white  man.  He  would  take  my  money  from  me  and  if  I didn’t  give  it  to 
him  he  would  beat  me. 

Q.  What  was  his  name  ? A.  John  Evans. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  long  is  that  since  you  were  in  this  house  and  these  quarrels 
took  place?  A.  That  was  five  years  ago. 

Q.  Who  married  you,  a minister?  A.  Yes,  a minister. 

Q.  Did  he  come  to  the  house  to  marry  you?  A.  No;  I can’t'  re- 
member his  name. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Where  did  you  spend  the  time  between  five 
years  ago  and  now?  A.  I have  been  working.  I have  married.  I am  going 
ahead  of  my  story.  I was  there  a couple  of  weeks  and  then  I took  down 
sick  and  I was  sick  in  bed.  I don’t  know  how  many  weeks  I laid  there. 
This  fellow  knew  I had  a little  money  and  he  knew  I had  it  under  the 
mattress  and  he  would  come  in  and  ask  for  it  and  if  I wouldn’t  give  him 
any  he  would  give  me  a beating. 

Q.  While  you  were  ill?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I have  got  a scar  on  ruy  leg 

yet. 

Q.  Where  was  that?  A.  340  Madison  street. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  committee  they  compelled  you  to  go  in 
and  serve  men,  knowing  you  were  in  that  condition?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I had 
to  do  that,  there  were  two  or  three  hundred  men  a week. 

Q.  Two  or  three  hundred  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  that  condition  exist?  A.  I don’t  know  how  many 
weeks. 

Q.  How  long  before  you  were  cured?  A.  I wouldn’t  be  cured  yet 
if  it  hadn’t  been  for  the  doctor,  who  felt  sorry  for  me. 

Q.  When  did  you  quit  that  place?  A.  About  three  years  ago? 

Q.  All  the  time  you  were  there,  as  you  have  stated,  the  money  you 
earned  was  taken  away  from  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  was. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  then?  A.  Then  I got  so  bad  I couldn’t  stay  with 
fellows.  She  said  if  I wasn’t  able  to  go  in  the  parlor  and  stay  wdth 
fellows  she  would  charge  me  with  tw'o  dollars  for  every  fellow  I turned 
down. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  is  about  the  worst  case  we  have  heard  of  yet. 
THE  WITNESS:  You  can’t  imagine  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  us  have  it  all;  that  is  what  we  are  here  for. 

THE  WITNESS:  She  took  all  my  clothes  away  from  me  and  said 
if  I didn’t  go  in  the  parlor  and  make  any  monej'-  for  her  she  would  charge 
me  with  two  dollars  for  every  fellow  I turned  dowm.  I said,  “All  right; 
I will  fix  you.’’  So  I went  in  the  parlor  and  matter  was  running  from  my 
leg,  and  I went  in  the  room  and  a fellow  wouldn’t  have  anything  to  do 
with  me.  He  saw  something  w^as  w-rong.  He  asked  what  was  the  matter, 
and  I didn’t  want  to  tell  him.  I raised  my  dress  up  and  showed  him.  He 
said,  “there  is  your  two  dollars.’’  I was  afraid  he  would  go  and  tell  the 
landlady  and  I would  get  another  beating. 

Q.  She  used  to  beat  you?  A.  Yes;  she  gave  me  a punch  in  the  face 
when  I was  sick  in  bed  and  couldn’t  defend  myself.  This  fellow  came  out. 
She  said,  “You  were  not  in  the  room  very  long.”  I said,  “Well,  that 
fellow  knew  something  was  wrong  with  me.”  That  made  her  sore  at  me. 
So  this  fellow  come  in  and  give  me  a good  beating. 

Q.  What  fellow  beat  you?  A.  Evans,  the  porter. 

Q.  Your  husband?  A.  Yes. 


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193 


Q.  How  did  he  beat  you?  A.  In  the  face,  and  many  times  I had  a 
black  eye,  and  he  kicked  me. 

Q.  Where  did  he  kick  you,  in  the  abdomen?  A.  All  over;  it  didn’t 
make  any  difference  where. 

Q.  Is  he  still  in  existence?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Where  is  she?  A.  She  is  on  the  South  Side  on  Armour  Avenue. 

1 think  you  can  find  her  in  the  directory. 

2 Q.  What  is  her  name?  A.  Nellie  Streeter. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  could  not  get  away ? A.  I couldn’t  get  away. 
SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  You  were  in  prison?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just  like  a 
prison.' 

% Q.  Where  was  that  place?  A.  340  Madison  street.  West  Madison. 

Q.  In  the  City  of  Chicago,  County  of  Cook?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
i‘  Q.  Right  here  in  the  State  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  the  old  number. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Where  is  it  near?  A.  Madison  street  near 
Aberdeen  street. 

Q.  On  the  south  side  of  the  street?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  houses  is  it  away  from  Aberdeen,  east  or  west?  A.  It 
is  west  of  Aberdeen  street. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  How  many  women  were  in  this  house? 
A.  She  generally  had  from  fifteen  to  sixteen. 

Q.  She  would  work  them  just  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  How  was  their  health;  were  they  diseased? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  girls  had  to  serve  men  when  they  were  diseased?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  anything  done  for  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir;  the  doctor  came  and 
examined  the  girls  every  week  and  she  paid  him  to  give  the  girls  a certifi- 
cate saying  they  were  all  right  when  I knew  they  were  not. 

Q.  Just  a moment.  This  doctor  came  and  examined  the  girls  and 
gave  them  certificates  of  good  health,  and  the  girls  paid  for  that?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  He  did  that  to  me  more  than  once. 

Q.  You  say  with  this  running  sore  on  your  leg  and  being  in  the  con- 
dition you  were  in,  that  this  doctor,  licensed  by  the  State  of  Illinois,  gave 
you  a certificate  and  certified  you  were  in  good  health?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name  and  address?  A.  That  was  four  years  ago. 
At  that  time  he  was  on  Halsted  street.  I don’t  just  remember  where  it  was; 
Halsted  and  Twelfth  streets,  I think. 

Q.  This  doctor  treated  you  in  order  to  try  to  bring  you  on  your 
feet.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  the  one  that  had  constant  knowledge  of  your  health? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  isn’t  any  shadow  of  doubt  in  your  mind  but  you  were  ill? 
A.  Certainly  not. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  You  said  there  were  about  fifteen  or  sixteen 
girls  in  the  house.  How  many  men  were  in  that  house  in  a week?  You 
said  two  or  three  hundred,  I believe?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I should  judge  I 
had  seventy-five,  just  myself.  The  landlady  used  to  take  in  $400  and  $500. 
Q.  How  much  did  you  get?  A.  I got  two  dollars. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Everything  you  got  she  took  away  from  you? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  every  cent. 

Q.  You  got  your  board?  A.  I got  my  board. 

Q.  How  did  she  manage  to  keep  you  and  give  you  nothing?  Did  you 
ever  talk  with  her?  A.  You  couldn’t  talk  to  her. 

Q.  Couldn’t  you  have  gone  out  of  the  house  with  some  visitor?  A. 
If  you  did  there  was  somebody  walking  behind  that  belonged  in  the  house 
and  you  couldn’t  go  very  far. 


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Q.  Weren’t  you  allowed  a day  off?  A.  Yes,  but  3'ou  had  to  go 
either  with  her  or  somebody  in  the  house. 

SENATOR  WAAGE;  Q.  Why  didn’t  you  call  a policeman  when 
you  went  out?  A.  Because  I didn’t  have  sense  enough. 

SENATOR  WAAGE;  Q.  Did  this  doctor  finally  heal  3’ou  of  this 
disease?  A.  Yes,  sir.  When  he  came  there  and  seen  how  low  I was,  they 
asked  him  to  send  me  to  a hospital  because  they  did  not  want  me  to  die 
in  the  house. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  They  did  not  object  to  your  living  there  but 
did  not  want  you  to  die  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  woman  in  that  house  claim  to  have  a pull  with  the  police- 
man on  that  beat?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  did  she  use  it?  A.  She  said  she  would  find  me  wherever 
I went. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Q.  Was  this  place  up  over  a saloon?  A.  No, 
it  was  over  a bakery. 

Q.  Did  you  keep  any  of  the  certificates  this  doctor  gave  j'ou?  A.  No, 
I did  not.  Ycm  were  supposed  to  put  them  in  the  room  so  that  they  could 
see  you  were  all  right. 

Q.  He  finally  cured  you?  A.  Yes;  he  felt  sorry  for  me.  He  told  me 
on  the  quiet  he  would  do  what  he  could  for  me  if  I would  keep  still  about  it. 

REPRESENTATIVE  SHAVER;  Q.  Each  of  the  girls  were  ex- 
amined by  this  doctor?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  she  charged  the  girls  two  dollars. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Q.  Madam,  did  you  ever  have  anjNody  come 
back  to  the  house  and  accuse  you  of  getting  a disease  from  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Many  of  them?  A.  Yes  sir.. 

Q.  And  still  the  house  ran  on  just  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Madam,  I have  a question  to  ask  you.  I do  not  like  to  ask  it, 
but  could  anj-  man  get  service  any  way  he  wanted  in  this  house?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  understand  my  question?  I do  not  want  to  ask  it  pointedlju 
You  know  what  I mean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  could  get  service  any  way  they  wished?  A.  Thej'  could. 

Q.  You  are  not  living  that  life  now?  A.  No,  I am  trjdng  to  live  a 
straight  life. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Q.  I want  to  ask  you  how  3'Ou  got  out  of  there. 
A.  When  I owed  her  all  this  money  I just  made  up  my  mind  to  go.  So 
when  I got  a couple  of  dollars  in  my  pocket  I opened  the  door  and  walked 
out.  I was  all  in,  so  I guess  she  was  glad  to  get  rid  of  me. 

Q.  Then  did  you  get  away  from  this  life?  A.  I did. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Q.  You  realized  that  wasn’t  the  place  for  a 
woman  like  you  and  jmu  believe  this  great  evil  should  be  eradicated? 
A.  I do. 

SENATOR  WAAGE;  Q.  Suppose  a man  came  in  the  house  and  it 
was  perfectly  apparent  he  was  diseased,  what  rule  would  be  observed  by 
the  girls?  A.  That  was  all  right. 

Q.  He  would  be  served  in  the  same  manner?  A.  Yes;  if  one  wouldn’t 
another  would. 

Q.  Didn’t  they  make  an  examination  of  the  men?  A.  If  one  would 
turn  them  down  he  would  go  to  another  one  and  she  would  take  him. 

The  withness  was  then  excused.  Thereupon  the  commission  ad- 
journed to  2;30  o’clock  P.  M. 


SESSION  V. 

Pressing  its  effort  to  discover,  if  possible,  the  _ factors  that 
contribute  to  the  white  slave  industry,  the  Committee  extends 
its  inquiry  into  the  subject  of  wages  paid  to  women  and  girls, 
directing  its  attention  particularly  to  large  department  stores  as 
representative  employers  of  female  labor.  The  following  wit- 
nesses questioned: 

Mr.  Edwin  F.  Mandel,  president,  and  Mr.  Peter  J.  Dunne, 
superintendent,  of  Mandel  Brothers; 

Mr.  James  Simpson,  vice-president  Marshall  Field  >&  Co.; 

Mr.  Roy  Shayne,  president  John  T.  Shayne  & Co. 

Under  a promise  that  their  names  would  not  be  published,  six 
women  witnesses  assign  the  causes  of  and  the  circumstances  that 
led  to  their  downfall.  Testimony  of: 


A 

P 

R- 

B 

P 

M 

T 

C* 

P 

R- 

T 

H 

Chicago,  March  7,  1913. 

j The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  recess  on  Friday,  March  7,  1913, 
2 :30  o’clock  p.  m. 

Present : The  same  as  before. 

Whereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

Testimony  of  Mr.  Edwin  F.  Mandel  and  Mr.  Peter  J.  Dunne. 

EDWIN  F.  MANDEL,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edwin  F.  Mandel. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  I am  president  of  Mandel  Brothers. 
Q.  That  is  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  president  of  that  corporation,  I suppose  in  a general  way  you 
are  conversant  with  the  wages  paid?  A.  In  a general  way,  yes;  but,  we 
have  our  superintendent  here,  Mr.  Dunne,  whom  you  might  swear  in  and 
he  will  bear  me  out  in  anything  I might  say. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  Mr.  Dunne  please  come  forward  and  be 
sworn? 

Thereupon, 

PETER  J.  DUNNE,  called  as  a witness  and  duly  sworn  by  Senator 
[uul. 

( EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr  Mandel,  how  many  women  do  you  employ  in  your  place  of 
business?  A.  1,866. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  salary  paid  your  woman  workers?  A.  $9.86 
outside  of  the  buyers  and  heads  of  departments  and  their  assistants. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  salary  you  pay  any  woman  in  the  depart- 

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ment,  either  a head  or  a buyer?  A.  About  $35  a week.  Isn’t  that  rieht. 
Mr.  Dunne? 

MR.  DUNNE:  Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  would  be  for  clerical  work,  Mr.  Mandel? 
MR.  MANDEL:  For  a saleswoman. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  salary  you  pay  any  woman  in  your  employ? 
A.  Well,  I would  like  to  quality  that.  We  have  what  we  call  juveniles, 
fourteen  or  fifteen  years  old,  that  get  as  low  as  $3  a week  and  up  to  five 
dollars. 

Q.  From  three  dollars  to  five  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir.  They 
are  not  saleswomen,  however.  They  are  beginners  and  errand  girls. 

Q.  How  many  receive  three  dollars  a week?  A.  Eight. 

Q.  And  the  oldest  of  those  is  how  old?  A.  Fourteen. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  a little  something  about  those  eight  girls,  Mr. 
Mandel,  that  get  three  dollars  a week?  They  all  have  homes,  have  they? 
A.  They  live  in  their  homes,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  every  case  you  have  investigated  to  satisfy  your  own 
conscience  that  they  really  have  homes?  A.  Well,  we  take  it  for  granted 
from  their  applications  that  they  do,  and  we  believe  them. 

Q.  You  take  the  applications  at  their  face  value?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we 
believe  them. 

Q.  And  you  go  no  further  than  that?  MR.  DUNNE:  W’e  have  school 
certificates.  MR.  MANDEL:  Oh,  yes.  Mr.  Dunne  says  we  have  school 
certificates  also. 

Q.  You  have  girls  employed  at  four  and  five  dollars  a week?  A. 
From  four  to  five  dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  old  are  they  as  a rule?  A.  They  are  as  a rule  young 

girls  who  get  four  dollars  and  a half  a week  and  their  salarj-  is  raised 

automatically  up  to  six  dollars. 

Q.  For  the  benefit  of  the  Committee,  Mr.  Mandel,  will  3'ou  please 
state  how  it  is  3'ou  are  paying  such  low  wages  to  any  girl?  A.  We  base 
that  entirely  on  the  girl’s  capabilit3'  and  her  earning  capacit3'. 

Q.  Your  business  is  financed  on  a pa3-ing  basis?  A.  I am  not  at 
liberty  to  answer  that. 

Q.  If  you  were  convinced  that  these  girls  are  suffering  a hardship 
through  the  pa3uuent  of  these  low  salaries,  would  3'ou  be  willing  to  accept 
a remed3'  for  it?  A.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  had  cases  where  girls  said 

they  were  not  receiving  a sufficient  wage  and  their  wages  have  been  imme- 

diately increased  to  meet  their  surroundings. 

Q.  You  have  heard,  Mr.  Mandel,  have  3'ou  not,  that  there  is  a bill 
pending  providing  for  a minimum  wage  for  woman  workers  in  this 
state?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  such  a bill  were  enacted  into  law,  would  it  work  a 
hardship  in  your  business?  A.  It  depends  on  how  high  it  was. 

Q.  What  would  3-ou  sa3-  would  be  a reasonable  sum  to  provide  a 
girl  with  a living  wage  and  at  the  same  time  protect  business  interests?  A. 

I would  like  to  have  you  ask  that  question  again. 

Q.  At  what  figure  would  3'OU  place  a minimum  wage  for  women  1 
in  fairness  to  both  the  employer  and  the  emplo3'e?  A.  If  the3'  live  at  j 
home  I would  say  six  dollars  a week  as  a minimum.  If  the3-  are  dependent  1 
on  their  salary  I should  say  nine  dollars  a week,  which  we  now  have  j 
in  our  establishment.  Any  girl  who  is  dependent  on  her  salar3-  should  | 
get  not  less  than  nine  dollars  a week  and  the3'  do  that  at  Mandel  Brothers.  \ 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  you  have  stated  that  six  dollars  a week  would  seem  j 
to  you  to  be  a fair  living  wage  for  women  living  at  home?  A.  For  a girl  | 
starting  out  and  learning  the  business,  if  she  was  living  at  home,  3-es.  ' 

Q.  How  much  would  it  cost  your  establishment  if  3'Ou  raised  the  : 
wage  of  every  girl  who  is  now  getting  less  than  that  sum  to  six  dollars 
a week?  A.  As  to  the  girls  fourteen  and  fifteen  3-ears  old,  I couldn’t  sa3'. 


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197 


Q.  It  would  not  be  a handicap  to  your  business?  A.  No,  I don’t 
think  it  would. 

' Q.  Why  hasn’t  that  been  done,  if  that  is  a fair  question,  Mr.  Mandel? 
A.  We  think  that  a little  girl  starting  out,  who  is  living  at  home,  could 
live  on  that.  If  she  remains  for  six  months  her  salary  is  raised. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  girl’s  time  do  you  require  to  be  given 
to  your  business,  girls  making  from  three  dollars  to  eight  dollars  a 
(Week?  A.  Eight  hours. 

I Q.  Have  you  any  arrangement  for  the  welfare  of  these  girls?  A.  Oh, 
[yes,  sir;  we  have  social  welfare  workers  and  a doctor  who  looks  after 
ithem. 

I Q.  You  pay  them  every  possible  attention?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  do  you  consider  that  an  employer  has  any  moral 
responsibility  for  the  welfare  of  3^oung  girls  working  in  his  place  of 
business?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  efforts  to  protect  a girl  of  fourteen,  fifteen 
or  sixteen  years  of  age  from  unscrupulous  men  who  might  tempt  them? 
A.  All  they  have  got  to  do  in  any  case  of  that  kind  is  to  report  it. 

; Q.  You  have  a matron  there,  have  3^ou?  A.  Yes. 

. Q.  And  her  duties  are  to  look  after  these  girls?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  This  Committee  has  received  a great  many  letters  from  girls 
i claiming  that  floor-walkers  in  many  of  our  State  Street  stores  are  the 
[agents  of  the  white  slave  industry  for  certain  parties.  Do  you  know 
whether  such  a condition  exists?  A.  I never  heard  of  such  a condition. 
I Q.  Has  any  case  of  that  nature  ever  been  reported  to  you?  A.  No, 

sir. 

! THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  about  that,  Mr.  Dunne?  MR.  DUNNE:  I 
[never  heard  of  such  a case. 

ij  THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  are  asking  these  questions  in  fairness  both 
;to  the  employer  and  the  emplo3'e?  A.  I understand. 

, THE  CHAIRMAN:  Another  statement  has  been  made  and  it  is 
(ft'common  talk,  not  only  in  this  state  but  throughout  the  country,  that  in 
([some  places  girls  have  applied  for  work  and  been  told  that  their  salary 
( would  be  four  or  five  dollars  a week,  and  if  they  couldn’t  live  on  it  they 
' could  get  a “good  friend”  on  the  side.  A.  I never  heard  of  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  such  a case  come  to  your  attention?  A.  No,  sir. 

I'  Q.  Have  you,  Mr.  Dunne?  MR.  DUNNE:  Never. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  How  many  girls  or  women  have  you  working 
jiin  your  establishment  for  less  than  seven  dollars  a week?  MR.  MANDEL: 
lA.  I can’t  answer  that  off  hand.  Can  you,  Mr.  Dunne? 

I MR.  DUNNE:  I should  say  probably  not  more  than  one  hundred, 
including  these  juveniles,  these  irregular  girls. 

MR.  MANDEL:  There  are  forty  outside  of  the  juveniles,  from  four- 
teen to  sixteen  years  of  age. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  in  your  judgment,  has  the 
question^  of  wage  anything  to  do  with  the  morality  of  women?  A.  I 
don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  believe  that  a girl  who  is  receiving  seven  dollars  a week 
md  finds  that  the  actual  necessities  of  life  cost  her  eight  dollars  a week, 
is  as  well  fortified  against  temptation  as  the  girl  receiving  twelve  dollars 
1 week,  when  her  actual  expenses_  are  only  ten  dollars?  A.  No;  it  de- 
pends on  the  girl’s  environment  and  whether  she  is  living  at  home,  or 
dependent  on  this  salary. 

Q.  The  home  environment  has  something  to  do  with  the  amount 
of  money  that  goes  into  the  making  of  that  home — you  think  that,  do 
you  not,  Mr.  Mandel?  A.  Please  repeat  that. 

Q.  That  home  environment  is  somewhat  dependent  on  the  amount 
of  money  that  goes  into  the  home?  A.  Yes,  somewhat. 

Q_.  Have  3^ou  ever,  _ Mr.  Mandel,  conducted  an  investigation  in  your 
sstablishment  to  ascertain  the  living  expenses  of  a girl  working?  A.  I 


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believe  we  ask  them  to  give  that  when  they  make  the  application. 

MR.  DUNNE;  That  is  always  on  the  application  of  the  girl  making 
the  application. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Q.  Have  you  one  of  those  application  blanks 
with  you?  A.  I haven’t  one  here,  but  I will  get  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  have  you  contributed  to  the  American  Vigilance 
Association?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  contributed  to  any  organization  having  for  its 
purpose  the  suppression  of  vice  in  this  city  or  community?  A.  I con- 
tributed to  the  Jewish  Charities  Bureau,  and  things  of  that  kind  but 
it  had  nothing  to  do  with  a girl’s  morality. 

Q.  If,  Mr.  Mandel,  you  found,  after  a careful  investigation,  that  a 
girl  could  not  live  comfortably  on  less  than  twelve  dollars  a week,  would 
you  voluntarily  say  that  twelve  dollars  a week  for  women  was  reasonable? 
A.  I wouldn’t  have  the  authority  to  answer  that  or  to  make  any  such 
promise. 

Q.  Have  you  a system  in  your  store  of  whipping  and  scolding? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  driving  and  scolding,  I should  say?  A.  No,  sir,  we  have 

not. 

Q.  If  a girl  is  a little  bit  slow  or  a little  bit  careless,  you  have  no 
official  to  whom  the  girl  would  be  sent  to  be  reprimanded?  A.  She  would 
be  sent  to  the  superintendent  to  be  reprimanded. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  have  you  a system  of  fines  against  emplo3'es  in 
your  store?  MR.  DUNNE;  Yes,  we  have  a system  of  fines  for  de- 
linquents in  the  morning. 

Q.  I would  like  to  know  to  what  extent  an  employe’s  wage  is  re- 
duced by  such  a system  of  fines?  A.  I don’t  quite  get  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  in  speaking  of  girls  who  are  getting  five  dollars 
a week — what  I would  like  to  find  out  is,  if  you  have  a system  of  fines 
in  your  store  that  reduces  that  amount  of  money.  MR.  DU^NNE;  We 
have  a system  of  fines  which  is  very  small.  If  a girl  should  come  late 
more  than  four  times  a week  she  would  be  fined  half  a cent  and  those 
fines  are  continued  and  are  afterwards  put  in  her  salar}-  in  case  of  sick- 
ness or  discharge. 

Q.  What  I would  like  to  ask  j^ou  is  this,  does  the  amount  of  the 
fines  deducted  amount  to  more  than  the  salar}"  for  the  same  period  of 
time?  A.  No,  that  all  goes  back  to  the  emplo3"es. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  these  employes  for  over-time?  A.  We  don’t  \vork 
any  over-time. 

Q.  You  don’t  work  over-time?  A.  Except  male  help. 

Q.  I would  like  to  go  back  and  ask  you,  Mr.  Mandel,  if  it  is  pos- 
sible for  a woman  who  is  dependent  on  her  earnings,  as  I suppose  a great 
many  of  your  young  women  are,  and  living  in  the  cit3^  of  Chicago,  to 
pay  for  her  room,  her  clothing  and  laundry,  shoes,  underclothing,  neces- 
sary food,  car  fare — is  it  possible  for  a 3-oung  woman  of  the  classes  3'ou 
have  described  to  paj^  her  own  wa3'  and  live  as  an  honest  girl?  A.  I 
should  say  that  a minimum  wage  of  nine  dollars  would  be  sufficient. 

Q.  You  testified,  if  I am  correct,  as  to  girls  getting  five  dollars  a 
week?  A.  Those  are  girls  of  fourteen  and  fifteen  3"ears  of  age  who  live 
at  home  and  are  not  dependent  on  their  salaries. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  they  are  not  dependent  on  it?  A.  From 
their  application.  We  assume  they  are  telling  the  truth. 

Q.  I want  to  find  out  as  to  that.  Suppose  a father  was  not  earn- 
ing mone3'^  enough  properh'’  to  support  the  famih-  and  to  bu3'  all  the 
necessary  clothes,  shoes  and  so  forth,  and  to  bu3-  three  meals  a da3-. 
what  would  you  say  would  be  the  proper  pay  in  that  case?  A.  I would 
have  to  qualify  that  remark. 


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199 


j SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  ask  the  chairman  to  have  the  aud- 
ience refrain  from  any  approval  or  disapproval  of  anything  that  occurs 
I here.  I hope  there  won’t  be  any  more  of  that.  We  are  trying  to  get 
I at  the  bottom  of  this  and  we  are  getting  down  to  a concrete  proposition. 

I Q.  Just  where  you  sit  now  a woman  sat  and  she  swore  she  went 
to  the  lowest  depths  of  degradation  because  she  hadn’t  the  money  to 
keep  straight.  That  is  the  testimony  under  oath.  I -Want  to  ask  you 
as  a witness  what  amount  of  money  you  think  these  girls  ought  to  get 
to  live  honestly?  A.  If  they  didn’t  live  at  home  that  would  not  be 
enough. 

Q.  Then,  will  you  answer  this  question.  Why  should  you  take  the 
labor  of  a woman  from  Monday  morning  to  Saturday  night  and  when 
she  went  out  of  your  place  feel  she  had  not  enough  to  live  on?  A.  I 
1;  don’t  know  of  any  such  thing. 

|t  Q.  Then,  I will  ask  you  to  take  this  pencil  and  a piece  of  paper 
if  and  I would  like  to  ask  you  what  you  would  estimate  the  cost  of  clothing 
and  so  forth  for  a young  woman.  We  will  take  your  figures  for  it. 
How  much  would  you  state  she  needed  for  clothing?  A.  I don’t  sup- 
pose they  all  clothe  themselves  alike. 

Q.  How  much  would  you  say  it  would  cost  to  cover  the  nakedness 
! of  a girl  who  wanted  to  live  decently?  A.  Well,  one  dollar. 

Q.  Let  us  put  down  one  dollar  and  let  us  see  if  we  can’t  get  to- 
1{  gether.  I think  when  we  get  through  here  you  gentlemen  will  be  willing 
: to  do  what  should  be  done.  Her  laundry  would  cost  how  much?  A. 
Perhaps  she  lives  at  home. 

Q.  Well,  let  her  live  at  home.  A.  She  wouldn’t  have  to  pay  for 
■ laundry  if  she  lived  at  home. 

I Q.  You  figure  out  the  amount  of  money  you  paid  for  all  her  time 

I and  for  all  her  living  and  we  will  try  to  get  at  a figure.  Now,  what  do 

you  say  about  her  laundry?  A.  Well,  twenty-five  cents,  I should  think. 

Q.  Down  goes  twenty-five  cents.  Now,  what  about  her  room  rent, 
what  is  that  worth?  A.  Room  and  board? 

Q.  No,  her  room?  A.  Room  and  board  would  be  about  four  dollars 

I a week. 

Q.  Four  dollars  a week.  I will  take  your  figures  for  that,  Mr.  Mandel 
And  she  spends  how  much  for  her  car  fare?  A.  Sixty  cents. 

Q.  And  how  much  would  she  spend  for  lunch?  .A.  About  seventy 
cents. 

j|  Q.  Six  meals  for  seventy  cents?  MR.  DLTNNE:  Yes,  sir. 

f Q.  You  have  a woman  in  your  place  who  looks  after  employes  if 

they  get  sick,  have  you  not?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  would  be  a low  sum  of  money  to  set  aside 
for  illness,  for  the  doctor  or  medicine  or  dental  bills — would  you  say  ten 
cents  a day?  A.  Perhaps. 

Q.  Does  the  one  dollar  you  suggest  for  clothing  include  shoes  and 
wraps?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  think  one  dollar  would  cover  the  whole  thing?  Is  there 
any  other  article  of  expense  you  would  suggest  that  a young  woman 
ought  to  be  permitted  to  have  out  of  her  earnings?  A.  I don’t  know 
of  any  other. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  we  believe  you  are  a very 
I humane  man  and  what  this  Committee  is  trying  to  do  is  to  solve  this 
' problem,  and  we  haven’t  anybody  to  send  for  to  solve  the  problem  except 
men  of  your  standard.  Now,_  what  would  you  say  would  be  the  cost 
i for  women  working  at  a minimum  wage  to  live  honestly  and  decently? 

I'  Would  she  be  likely  to  earn  money  from  other  sources?  A.  I should 
think  that  rather  than  go  that  far  she  would  go  into  a home  and  become 
' a domestic. 

Q.  You  think  she  would?  A.  She  ought  to. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  city  of  Chicago  furnishes  places  for  domestics 
ji  in  sufficient  numbers  to  take  care  of  those  people?  A.  Yes,  I under- 
I stand  they  are  very  scarce. 


200 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  would  be  able  to  go  on  and  do  business  and  compete  with 
others  if  you  paid  all  your  woman  employes  at  least  a living  wage? 

A.  I think  so. 

Q.  So  you  believe  it  is  possible  for  merchants  of  your  standing  to 
pay  this  living  wage  and  compete  with  others?  A.  I can  only  speak 
as  to  the  girls  in  Mandel  Brothers. 

Q.  You  have  testified  that  you  have  a number  of  young  women 
who  are  paid  six  and  seven  dollars  a week?  A.  They  live  at  home  with 
their  parents. 

Q.  Let  us  consider  that  proposition  whether  it  is  your  business  or 
anyone  else’s  business  to  support  the  girl  who  works  for  you.  Your 
relation,  Mr.  Mandel,  and  the  relation  of  your  employe  is  the  relation 
of  master  and  servant  and  there  is  also  the  apprentice.  Don’t  you  think 
the  apprentice  is  entitled  to  food  and  raiment  and  a place  to  sleep?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  concede  that  that  is  good  logic?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  morally  the  relation  of  master  and  apprentice 
still  exists?  A.  I do. 

Q.  You  don’t  believe  it  is  unreasonable  that  if  a young  woman  is 
taken  into  your  business  and  she  gives  up  her  time  faithfully  to  her 
employment,  she  should  be  required  to  seek  other  aid  to  obtain  sufficient 
to  live  upon?  A.  I think  every  woman  is  entitled  to  a living  wage. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  we  have  a bill  before  the  legislature  to  make  the 
minimum  wage  for  women  two  dollars  a day.  That  bill  is  now  up  in 
the  senate.  What  do  you  think  about  that  bill?  A.  I think  it  is  too 
high. 

Q.  What  would  j-ou  recommend?  A.  I would  recommend  the 
system  we  now  have  of  nine  dollars  a week  for  those  who  are  dependent 
upon  their  living  wage  to  start  with. 

Q.  You  spoke  awhile  ago  about  girls  at  a low  wage?  A.  Girls  of 
fourteen  years. 

Q.  Those  were  cash  girls?  A.  No,  they  are  errand  girls. 

Q.  Those  children  are  from  poor  parents,  I suppose.  You  pay  them 
how  much?  A.  We  pay  them  from  three  dollars  to  five  dollars  a week. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

Q.  The  girls  that  live  at  home  you  pay  less  wages  than  the  girls 
that  have  no  homes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  girls  that  have  no  homes  you  pay  higher  wages?  A.  The 
salaries  are  raised  according  to  their  work.  If  a saleswoman  shows 
ability  she  is  raised. 

Q.  Doesn’t  the  question  of  whether  she  has  a home  or  not  come  in? 

A.  No.' 

MR.  DUNNE:  No,  Senator.  We  have  girls  living  at  home  that 
jump  to  fifteen  and  eighteen  dollars.  It  depends  on  their  qualifications. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Q.  Air.  Alandel,  what  is  the  difference  in 
your  pay  to  male  help  and  female  help  for  the  same  service  rendered? 

A.  That  is  pretty  hard  to  answer;  there  are  so  many  different  cases,  i 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  your  male  help?  AIR.  DUNNE:  j 
The  lowest  wage  paid  to  salesmen  is  $14  a week  and  there  are  some  i 
male  workers  at  twelve  dollars  a week. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  is  the  difference  in  the  service  rendered?  I 
MR.  DUNNE:  Only  just  menial  work;  such  as  work  that  does  not 
require  any  special  qualification. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  AIR.  AIANDEL: 
They  handle  different  kinds  of  goods.  They  handle  work  that  requires 
more  strength  and  more  experience.  We  can  put  women  in  other  de- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  201 

partments,  like  dry  goods  and  silks.  We  don’t  use  women  in  our  drapery 
department. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  pay  the  women  the  same  wages  for  the 
same  service  that  you  pay  men?  A.  No. 

Q.  For  performing  the  same  service?  A.  It  depends  on  what  the 
service  is.  We  don’t  use  men  to  sell  pins  and  needles — it  wouldn’t  pay 
us  to  do  it,  but  women  handle  the  small  work,  such  as  soaps  and  other 
articles. 

EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  When  girls  leave  your  establishment  do  they  use  a designated 
exit  or  door?  A.  There  are  two  of  them,  and  they  are  supposed  to 
use  the  doors. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  watched  those  girls  when  they  leave?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  noticed  any  men  waiting  for  them?  A.  I don’t 
know  whether  the  men  were  waiting  for  the  girls.  I have  seen  men 
waiting  around. 

Q.  Do  you  have  men  at  these  doors  to  protect  the  girls  as  they 
leave?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is,  at  the  doors  when  they  leave?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

MR.  DUNNE:  We  have  men  at  the  door  to  prevent  them  from 
congregating  and  to  make  them  move  on  and  they  don’t  make  appoint- 
ments around  the  door,  or  anything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Then,  Mr.  Mandel,  you  feel  in  that  regard  that  the  employer 
has  a moral  responsibility?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  see  that  the  girls  in  leaving  are  protected?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  say  this  to  the  Committee,  Mr.  Mandel,  that  you  will 
have  some  investigation  made  of  the  applications  given  in  by  these  girls? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  you  find  any  girl  is  dependent  on  their  wage  and  is 
earning  four  to  five  dollars  a week,  you  will  increase  her  wages?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

. THE  CHAIRMAN;  Are  there  any  other  members  of  the  assembly 
present  who  would  like  to  question  the  witness? 

I EXAMINATION  BY  REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD. 

Q.  Mr.  Mandel,  in  the  answers  which  you  gave  going  into  the  cost 
of  living,  wouldn’t  all  of  those  items  apply  to  a girl  of  16  years  living 
at  home  because  of  board  and  room?  A.  That  would  depend  on  condi- 
tions. 

Q.  She  would  have  to  have  clothes,  carfare,  lunch  and  her  washing 
done?  A.  She  might  be  living  at  home  and  contributing  to  the  support 
of  the  family  where  the  father,  perhaps,  is  earning  fifty  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Whether  she  was  16  years  old  or  19  years  old,  she  would  require 
board  and  room?  A.  My  answer  would  be  the  same;  she  would  not  be 
dependent  on  her  salary. 

Q.  Now,  deducting  four  dollars  for  board  and  room,  suppose  she 
lived  at  home,  then  those  girls  you  pay  only  three  dollars  a week,  some- 
body has  to  contribute  the  balance  to  help  you  run  your  business;  isn’t 
that  a fact?  A.  I wouldn’t  put  it  in  that  way. 

Q.  In  the  figures  which  you  have  given  here  the  living  cost  of  a 
girl,  that  is,  her  clothes,  washing,  car  fare,  lunch  and  church  contribu- 
tion, amounts  to  about  $4.25  a week.  That  was  your  estimate?  A.  Pardon 
me;  those  were  for  girls  over  sixteen  years  of  age. 

Q.  Which  one  of  those  items  would  you  reduce  for  a girl  under 
sixteen  years  old?  A.  I think  the  clothing  would  be  less.  I don’t 
think  a girl  fourteen  years  old  would  need  as  much  as  a girl  sixteen 
years  old.  I took  the  girl  that  doesn’t  have  to  pay  for  room  or  board,  or 
anything  else,  that  was  absolutely  necessary. 


202  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  On  these  applications  which  you  get  of  girls  coming  from  a 
home,  is  there  anything  to  indicate  whether  the  father  is  alive  or  not? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  question  is  asked?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  a distinction  between  girls  who  live  at  home  and  those 
who  do  not  live  at  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  theory  is  that  they  can  afford  to  work  cheaper  than 
those  that  have  to  pay  for  board  and  room?  A.  We  don’t  look  at  it 
exactly  in  that  light.  We  want  every  girl  to  get  a living  wage. 

Q.  If  she  lives  at  home,  she  doesn’t  have  to  have  so  much  mone}'? 
A.  She  is  not  dependent  on  her  salary  for  her  support. 

Q.  But,  somebody  else  has  to  contribute  to  her  living  wage;  isn’t 
that  true?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  other  words,  her  father  pays  part  of  her  salary?  A.  No, 
I wouldn’t  say  that. 

Q.  Well,  somebody  except  the  employer  pays  the  difference?  A. 
It  depends  on  her  demands.  If  her  demands  are  more  than  her  salary 
somebody  has  got  to  pay  for  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Mandel,  it  will  not  be  the  policy  of  the 
Committee  to  discharge  any  of  the  witnesses  at  this  time,  but  you  will 
be  excused  until  ten  o’clock  tomorrow  with  the  understanding  that  you 
need  not  report  unless  notified.  I want  to  thank  you  for  your  testimony, 
both  Mr.  Mandel  and  Mr.  Dunne. 

Mr.  James  Simpson’s  Testimony. 

JAMES  SIMPSON,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  duly  sworn  by 
Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Please  state  your  name.  A.  James  Simpson. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  I am  vice-president  of  Marshall 
Field  & Company. 

Q.  As  vice-president  you  are  conversant  with  the  wages  paid  em- 
ployes? A.  I am  to  a greater  or  less  extent. 

Q.  And  you  have  the  power,  if  j^ou  desire  to  exercise  it,  to  both 

employ  and  discharge?  A.  I have,  but  I do  not  exercise  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  j-ou  believe  in  such  a thing  as  a living  wage  for 
both  men  and  women?  A.  I do. 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  a living  wage  for  a woman  dependent  on 
her  own  resources?  A.  I don’t  know  that  I am  competent  to  answer 
that,  although  I have  heard  it  estimated  by  people  whom  I think  are 
competent,  at  eight  dollars  per  week.  That  may  or  maj'  not  be  right. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a woman  dependent  on  her  own  resources — 

how  do  you  define  that?  A.  A woman  who  might  have  to  go  out  and 
rent  a room  or  go  into  a boarding  house  and  who  has  no  family. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  distinction,  Mr.  Simpson,  between  the  woman 
who  rents  a room  in  a stranger’s  home  and  the  woman  who  lives  with 
her  parents?  A.  Distinction  in  what  way? 

Q.  Do  you  call  the  woman  who  lives  with  her  parents  not  wholly 
dependent  upon  her  own  resources?  A.  I should  sa}'  yes.  She  might 
not  be  dependent  on  her  own  resources. 

Q.  How  many  women  are  employed  bjf^  Marshall  Field  & Company 
in  the  retail  department?  A.  In  our  retail  store  we  have  4,222  regular 
female  employes?  By  regular  I mean  to  say  employes  that  are  engaged 
eight  hours  per  day. 

Q.  That  is  in  the  retail  store?  A.  I am  speaking  of  the  retail  onh'. 
now.  We  have  440  employees  who  are  emploj'ed  on  short  hours,  some 
of  them  as  low  as  three  and  a half  to  four  hours  per  day.  The  short  hour 
employes,  the  larger  percentage  of  them,  are  waiters  in  our  tea  room  and 
the  people  employed  in  connection  with  our  tea  room.  The  balance  of 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


203 


i those  serving  short  hours  are  very  largely  sales-people  who  go  to  work 
at  11:30  in  the  morning  and  serve  until  3:30  in  the  afternoon,  during  the 
I time  when  our  regular  force  is  at  lunch.  Of  those  who  come  to  us  to 
work  on  the  short  hour  basis  not  less  than  ninety  per  cent  of  them  are 

i,  divided  into  two  clashes.  The  first  of  them  are  young  married  women 
? who  are  unable  to  work  longer  hours.  They  are  obliged  to  be  at  home 

in  time  to  get  their  dinner  in  the  evening  and  they  have  more  or  less 
house  work  to  do  in  the  morning.  The  second  class  are  girls  who  are 

j,  there  attending  school  and  studying.  I speak  now  of  these  sales  people. 
I Some  of  them  are  studying  music  or  something  else  and  are  not  dependent 

on  what  they  earn  for  their  support.  However,  any  number  of  girls  have 
i informed  us  that  we  were  a great  help  to  them  in  furnishing  work  during 
those  hours. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  are  receiving  $5  dollars  a week  or  less? 
A.  We  have  very  few  who  are  receiving  that  amount.  We  are  very 
■ careful  in  selecting  our  help.  We  have  probably  213  receiving  the  minimum 
’ll  of  $5  dollars  a week.  Let  me  put  it  this  way.  We  have  no  girls  with  the 
exception  of  those  in  the  millinery  school  room  who  are  regularly  i:pon 
our  pay  roll  who  are  under  eighteen  years  of  age  that  receive  less  than 
$5  per  week. 

Q.  Have  you  nobody  outside  of  these  millinery  students  that  receive 
less  than  $5  a week?  A.  With  the  exception  of  the  millinery  students 
1 and  these  people  who  work  on  part  time  we  have  not.  The  minimum 
wage  paid  to  these  people  who  work  on  part  time  is  at  the  rate  of  $8  per 
week.  If  they  work  for  four  hours  a day,  they  get  $4. 

Q.  Pardon  me.  Do  you  employ  the  time  of  these  people  receiving 
less  than  $5  a week  at  work  in  other  departments?  A.  We  do  not. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  of  that  class,  about?  A.  There  are  about 

! 440. 

Q.  440  receiving  less  than  $5?  A.  That  is,  on  short  hours.  I want 
to  emphasize  that  point. 

ji  Q-  I know  you  want  to  get  that  in.  There  are  440  employes  re- 
||  ceiving  less  than  $5.  A.  But  they  do  not  get  in  full  time.  I want  to 
get  that  in. 

U Q.  What  is  the  average  earning  of  these  people?  A.  The  minimum 

y earning  is  at  the  rate  of  $8  per  week. 

Q.  That  doesn’t  give  us  anything.  How  much  do  they  earn?  A. 
i Nobody  gets  less  than  $4  a week. 

E Q.  None  of  the  girls  get  less  than  $4  a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  out  of  these  440  who  get  less  than  $4  a week  they  do  not 
give  all  their  time;  is  that  correct?  A.  Possibly  $4  to  $4.50,  or  upward 
iJi  May  I say  one  thing  more  so  as  to  make  this  clear? 

{ THE  CHAIRMAN:  Surely. 

f THE  WITNESS:  There  is  no  girl  or  woman  eighteen  years  old  on 
I our  pay  roll  who  receives  less  than  $6  a week.  These  people  I speak  of 
as  receiving  $5  per  week  are  all  under  eighteen  years  of  age  with  the 
exception  of  the  short  hour  people,  which  I spoke  about. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  have,  Mr.  Simpson,  213  girls  receiving  $5 
i a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j Q.  What  is  the  average  age  of  those  girls?  A.  We  have  not  to 

j exceed  twenty-five  girls  who  are  under  16  years  of  age  in  our  employ,  so 

• that  their  ages  would  be  from  16  to  18  years. 

j Q;  Do  you  know  anything  regarding  the  home  life  or  the  home 
^ conditions  of  these  213  girls  drawing  $5  a week?  A.  Through  our  welfare 
J workers  and  our  matrons  we  keep  in  as  close  touch  wdth  their  home  life 
I as  it  is  possible  for  us  to  do.  In  many,  many  cases  they  visit  their  homes. 

1 . Q-  How  many,  if  any,  of  these  213  girls  are  wholly  dependent  upon 

I their  own  resources?  A.  I don’t  know  that  any  of  them  are. 

Q.  Have  you  any  w'ay  of  knowing  positively  whether  any  of  them 
are  dependent?  _A.  I wouldn’t  state  it  positively,  but  in  anticipation  of 
what  your  question  might  be,  I asked  my  people  if  there  were  any  of 
them  dependent  upon  their  own  income  and  they  said  no.  I sa>'^.  “Do 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


you  know  it?”  “Well,”  they  said,  “We  know  it  just  as  much  as  we  can 
know  anything.  We  know  it  by  questioning  them  and  by  investigation.” 
You  might  be  able  to  find  an  exception  to  that  rule. 

Q.  How  much  money  do  you  spend  annually,  Mr.  Simpson,  in  inves- 
tigating these  girls  who  are  wholly  dependent  on  their  own  resources? 
A.  That  would  be  a very  difficult  question  to  answer,  because  I think 
each  one  of  our  section  heads  looks  after  that  and  also  the  welfare  depart- 
ment. I presume  there  are  less  than  half  a dozen  people  in  our  business 
who  do  nothing  but  welfare  work. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Simpson,  of  any  girl  who  can  buy  the  neces- 
sities of  life,  keep  herself  neat  and  pay  her  car  fare  on  $5  a week?  A. 
No,  not  if  dependent  on  her  own  resources. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  pay  a girl  $5  a week  and  it  would  cost  her,  we  will 
say,  $8  dollars  a week,  you  are  placing  the  burden  of  the  difference  be- 
tween $5  and  $8  a week  upon  her  parents  if  she  be  living  with  her  parents. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Or,  on  some  one  else’s  shoulders?  A.  I suppose 
the  parents’  shoulders  are  to  bear  the  burden.  These  children  are  young 
girls,  young  women  going  to  school,  a.s  it  were.  They  are  preparing  them- 
selves for  a greater  earning  capacity  later  on.  They  are  serving  an  appren- 
ticeship, as  it  were.  You  put  your  question  as  to  transferring  the  burden 
of  these  girls  on  some  one  else’s  shoulders.  I don’t  think  it  is  a fair 
question  the  way  it  is  put. 

Q.  Then  I will  try  to  put  it  differently.  Coming  back  to  the  old 
relation  between  the  employer  and  employe — let  us  take  the  case  of  these 
$5  a week  girls  and  we  have  got  a concrete  case.  You  have  213  getting  $5 
a week  and  you  have  stated  they  can  live  on  $5  a week,  and  Governor 
O’Hara  asked  you  if  you  were  not  trying  to  put  the  blame  of  the  burden 
for  the  balance  on  other  shoulders?  A.  I am  not. 

Q.  Where  does  it  come  from?  A.  Those  people  are  getting  all  they 
are  worth.  They  are  going  to  school,  as  it  were.  They  are  preparing 
themselves  for  a greater  earning  capacit}^  I want  to  say  now  that  the 
average  wage  of  all  female  employes  in  our  establishment  is  $10.76.  In 
the  retail  store  we  have  1,845  employes  selling  merchandise,  and  the 
average  wage  paid  to  employes  selling  merchandise,  exclusive  of  section 
departments  is  $12.33.  These  girls  that  are  getting  $5  a week  are  pre- 
paring themselves  to  occupy  positions  which  will  justify  pajdng  them 
more  money. 

Q.  If  I should  tell  you  that  the  testimony  before  this  Committee 
shows  that  sometimes  where  a girl  gets  less  than  $5  a week,  or  $5  a 
week,  she  goes  wrong,  what  would  you  say?  A.  I would  say.  Senator, 
that  an  infinitesimal  percentage  of  the  girls  that  go  wrong  would  be  about 
right  as  to  any  monetary  reasons. 

Q.  And  economical  reasons?  A.  An  infinitesimal  percentage  do  so 
for  monetary  reasons  for  the  first  time. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  as  an  employer  of  female  labor  you  would  want  to 
take  that  responsibility?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  feel  you  would  care  to  carry  that  responsibility?  A. 
No. 

Q.  You  have  only  213  girls  who  receive  $5  a week.  Suppose  it  would 
take  $1,065  a week  to  pay  those  girls  $10  a week  in  a business  the  size 
of  yours?  Do  you  think  this  $1,065  per  week  would  affect  the  profits  of 
your  business?  A.  Not  to  a very  great  extent. 

Q.  Let  us  have  your  idea  on  that  subject.  A.  Everything  in  the 
commercial  world  is  comparatively  fixed  upon  a certain  basis.  M e might 
pay  $5  a week  or  $10  a week  and  we  might  have  competition  which  might 
affect  us. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  the  great  merchants  of  this 
great  leading  town  should  have  employes  floundering  around  on  a star- 
vation line;  can  you  give  any  reason  why  there  should  be  any  such  con- 
dition? A.  I can  give  a very  excellent  reason  why  there  could  be  a 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


205 


I condition  such  as  I have  testified  to.  It  is  a competition  condition.  Busi- 
1 ness,  after  all,  is  competition.  That  is  true  of  the  whole  world.  We  could 
I do  a great  deal  if  it  were  not  for  competition. 

Q.  What  this  Committee  is  trying  to  get  at  is,  if  competition  has 
become  so  great  that  it  interferes  with  the  earnings  or  the  wages  of  girls 
^ and  women  so  as  to  not  be  able  to  pay  them  more  than  starvation  wages? 
i A.  Competition  has  not  made  it  entirely  impossible,  _ but  when  we  are 
to  compete  with  others  we  have  to  C9nform  our  business  according  to 
certain  lines  so  as  to  meet  that  competition. 

I Q.  I want  to  ask  you  if  competition  on  State  street  has  become  so 
'keen  that  you  could  not  afford  to  pay  the  213  employes  better  wages, 
i self-supporting  wages?  We  are  trying  to  get  at  the  facts  of  this  matter 
I and  we  will  be  obliged  if  you  will  help  us.  A.  We  shall  be  glad  to  do 
I what  we  can.  I haven’t  said  it  was  an  impossibility.  If  you  raise  the 
I standard  for  everybody  it  might  become  quite  possible.  If  you  have 
; a minimum  wage  law  for  the  State  of  Illinois,  you  might  make  it  impos- 
sible to  compete  with  the  other  states.  I should  think  it  ought  to  be 
I a federal  law. 

I Q.  We  have  to  make  a beginning  somewhere?  A.  Washington  would 
be  a good  place  to  begin. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  what  were  the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company 
during  the  last  fiscal  year,  the  net  profits?  A.  I shouldn’t  wish  to  answer 
that  question  without  taking  legal  advice.  Marshall  Field  & Company  is 
a close  corporation  and  the  public  do  not  own  stock  in  our  business  and 
the  figures  of  profits  have  always  been  treated  as  a confidential  matter 
and  I beg  you  to  excuse  me  from  answering. 

Q.  Do  you  refuse,  Mr.  Simpson,  to  answer  the  question?  A.  I do, 
if  you  compel  me  to.  I would  rather  you  would  put  it  the  other  way. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  would  you  say  that  the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & 
' Company  were  in  excess  of  one  million  dollars  a year?  A.  I told  you  I 
preferred  not  to  answer  that. 

Q.  You  refuse  to  answer  the  question?  A.  I do. 

I Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committtee,  Mr.  Simpson,  if  all  or  most  of 
the  profits  made  annually  by  Marshall  Field  & Company  are  paid  to 
persons  in  the  city  of  Chicago  and  State  of  Illinois?  A.  Will  you  repeat 
that  question,  please? 

Q.  Are  these  profits  paid  to  persons  resident  in  the  State  of  Illinois, 
a major  portion  of  the  profits?  A.  They  are. 

! Q.  Are  there  any  large  stockholders  in  Marshall  Field  & Company 
who  are  non-residents  at  this  time  of  the  State  of  Illinois  or  of  this 
country?  A.  Will  you  repeat  that  question,  please? 

Q.  Are  there  any  stockholders  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  who 
at  this  time  are  non-residents  of  Illinois  or  of  the  United  States  of 
j-  America?  A.  There  is  one. 

I Q.  Would  you  mind  naming  that  one?  A.  Joseph  N.  Field  of  Man- 
I Chester,  England. 

i Q-  Would  you  mind  telling  the  Committee  what  proportion  of  the 
I annual  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  goes  to  Mr.  Joseph  N.  Field 
; of  Manchester,  England?  A.  I must  respectfully  decline  to  answer  thajt 
question. 

[ Q.  But  there  is  money  made  by  the  corporation  of  Marshall  Field  & 
^ Company  here  in  Chicaeo  that  does  go  in  profit  to  Manchester,  England_? 
A.  A very  small  portion. 

Q.  And  you  refuse  to  state  what  that  portion  is?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Then.  Mr.  Simpson,  if  the  213  girls  at  present  receiving  $5  a week 
from  Marshall  Field  & Company  were  raised  from  below  the  starvation 
line  to  above  the  starvation  line  it  would  affect  the  profits  sent  from 
Chicago  to  Manchester,  England?  A.  In  proportion  to  the  holdings, 
although  I don’t  like  your  reference  to  that. 


206 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  take  a girl  who  is  earning  a small  wage,  say  star- 
vation wages,  what  would  you  suggest  was  a remedy  in  that  case?  A.  I 
would  suggest  that  you  mention  a specific  case. 

Q.  This  Committee  is  anxious  to  get  at  the  facts  and  we  want  to  be 
pleasant  and  be  reasonable.  We  are  confronted  with  testimony  that  goes 
to  show  that  girls  are  being  paid  four  dollars  a week  and  less  and  we 
are  confronted  with  the  question  of  girls  being  paid  five  dollars  a week. 
You  stated  on  your  examination  that  it  was  insufficient  for  them  to  live 
on;  is  that  true?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  don’t  believe,  then,  that  they  can  live  on  starvation  wages? 
A.  No,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  what  are  the  dividends  paid  by  Marshall  Field  & 
Company?  A.  I must  again  decline  to  answer. 

Q.  May  1 inquire,  Mr.  Simpson,  what  the  attitude  of  Marshall  Field 
& Company  as  a corporation  is  towards  union  labor?  A.  We  employ 
both  union  and  non-union  labor. 

Q.  You  pay  union  rates?  A.  We  do. 

Q.  Have  efforts  been  made  to  organize  your  workers  in  certain  lines 
in  the  union  within  the  last  year?  A.  I don’t  know  of  an3u 

Q.  If  such  efforts  were  made  would  you  stop  them?  A.  M'hat  is 
that? 

Q.  If  efforts  were  made,  for  instance,  among  the  girls  receiving  five 
dollars  a week  to  form  a union  to  advocate  higher  wages,  would  j-ou  stop 
the  work  of  organization?  A.  W’e  have  not  been  confronted  with  that 
question  that  I know  of. 

Q.  If  you  were,  what  would  you  do?  A.  I should  advise  with  my 
fellow  officials  and  try  to  come  to  whatever  seemed  to  be  a wise  con- 
clusion in  the  premises. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  how  many  women  receive  more  than  five  dollars 
a week  and  not  more  than  six  dollars  in  your  emplojU  A.  I have  stated 
there  are  163  women  over  eighteen  j-ears  of  age  receiving  a minimum  of 
six  dollars  per  week. 

Q.  163?  A.  163,  yes. 

Q.  How  many  are  receiving  the  minimum  of  seven  dollars  a week? 
A.  I haven’t  got  that.  I can  give  you  the  eight  dollar  people. 

Q.  The  eight  dollar  class,  then.  Air.  Simpson?  A.  There  are  1,035 
female  employes  in  our  retail  store  that  are  receiving  less  than  eight 
dollars  per  week.  That  includes  all  of  these  people  we  are  talking  about. 

Q.  How  many  are  receiving  less  than  nine  dollars  a week?  A.  I 
haven’t  got  that. 

Q.  You  haven’t  anything  above  the  eight  dollar  figure?  A.  I have 

not. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  female  workers  in  j-our  retail 
establishment?  A.  $10.76. 

Q.  And  by  making  that  average.  Air.  Simpson,  what  is  the  lowest 
salary  that  is  figured?  A.  The  five  dollar  a week  salar\'. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  salarj'  figured?  A.  I don’t  know;  that  is 
all  the  women  in  our  retail  department. 

Q.  Including  department  heads?  A.  A'es. 

Q.  Any  buyers?  A.  Yes,  all  women. 

Q.  You  pay  some  of  j'our  buj-ers  as  high  as  ten  thousand  dollars 
a year,  do  you?  A.  I should  think  not.  Perhaps  I can  help  you  out 
on  that.  The  average  for  selling  merchandise — there  are  1,895  people 
engaged  and  the  average,  exclusive  of  the  department  heads,  is  $12.33. 

Q.  But  in  the  $10.76  average,  that  includes  all  of  the  department 
heads?  A.  A'es,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


207 


Q.  Isn’t  that  rather  unfair  to  include  the  department  heads  in  that 
average?  A.  1 should  be  very  glad  to  furnish  you  figures,  but  I do  not 
believe  it  would  vary  very  much  because  a number  of  section  ladies  are 
small  buyers  and  might  not  get  over  ten  dollars  a week.  I probably 
could  furnish  the  items  for  your  record. 

Q.  Have  you  a post-office  in  your  retail  department,  a branch  post- 
office?  A.  We  have. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  the  girls  working  there?  A.  I cannot  answer 

that. 

Q.  Have  you  any  person  here  that  can  answer  that  question?  A.  No, 
I don’t  think  there  is  any  person  here,  but  I should  be  very  glad  to 
furnish  you  with  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Simpson,  whether  in  case  of  loss,  the  loss  is 
charged  to  the  girl  rather  than  to  the  corporation?  A.  A loss  of  what? 

Q.  If  there  be  a loss  in  that  post-office,  the  girl  would  stand  the 
loss  and  not  the  corporation?  A.  No,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Simpson,  you  have  refused  to  answer  certain 
very  important  questions.  You  stated  in  your  testimony  that  the  matter 
of  competition  entered  into  the  fixing  of  wages.  You  were  then  asked 
concerning  the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company,  and  you  refused  to 
answer  the  question.  This  Committee  cannot  be  expected  to  determine 
whether  the  girl  really  does  earn  a living  wage  until  you  frankly  submit 
a statement  of  the  profits  of  the  corporation  that  employs  her.  She,  in 
part,  is  responsible  for  the  profits. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  say,  Mr.  Simpson,  that  I think  this 
Committee  has  the  power  to  call  before  it  any  person  or  any  officer 
of  any  corpration  and  to  call  for  any  information  which  may  be  necessary 
for  the  purposes  of  this  investigation. 

THE  WITNESS:  I-  will  be  very  glad  to  do  anything  I can  to  help 
the  Committee.  I believe  you  are  engaged  in  a very  good  work  and  our 
firm  wants  to  help  you  in  any  way  in  our  power. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  still  refuse,  Mr.  Simpson,  to  answer  the 
question  regarding  the  net  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  I 
still  refuse  to  answer  the  question,  at  least  until  I shall  have  legal  advice. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Waage  would  like  to  ask  a few 
questions. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WAAGE. 

Q.  You  are  vice-president  of  Marshall  Field  & Companjq  I under- 
stand? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Marshall  Field  & Company  a corporation,  is  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Organized  under  law?  A.  The  State  of  Illinois. 

Q.  What  is  the  capital  stock  of  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  Six 
million  dollars. 

Q.  Does  that  include  both  the  wholesale  and  retail  business?  A.  It 
does. 

Q.  Are  the  buildings  in  which  these  businesses  are  being  conducted 
the  property  of  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  They  are  not. 

Q.  Who  is  the  owner  of  the  buildings,  if  you  know?  A.  We  have 
a number  of  landlords. 

Q.  Very  well.  This  six  million  dollars  of  capital  stock  is  repre- 
sented by  the  stock  and  merchandise  in  these  two  businesses  and  the 
paraphernalia  necessary  to  carry  on  the  business,  is  that  true?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  total  value  of  the  merchandise  stock, 
equipments  and  so  forth  of  Marshall  Field  & Company,  wholesale  and 
retail  business,  is?  A.  I don’t  remember. 

Q.  Is  it  in  excess  of  six  million  dollars?  A.  I haven’t  the  figures 
in  mind. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  it?  A.  No. 


208  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  It  may  be  more  or  it  may  be  less?  A.  I have  not  the  figures 
in  mind. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company 
were  for  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  December  31st,  1912? 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  were  the  net  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & 
Company  for  the_  fiscal  year  ending  December  31st,  1912?  A.  I haven’t 
the  exact  figures  in  mind. 

Q.  Approximately?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Are  the  two  businesses,  that  is  to  say,  the  wholesale  on  the  one 
hand,  and  the  retail  on  the  other,  carried  on  separately,  as  far  as  the 
officers  are  concerned?  A.  We  have  a manager  in  every  section  of 
our  business.  It  is  a community  of  interest  and  it  is  very  hard  to  dis- 
associate them. 

Q.  Will  you  state  to  this  Committee  what  were  the  approximate 
profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  for  the  fiscal  year  ending  December 
31st,  1912?  A.  That  is  a question  I declined  to  answer  without  first 
having  legal  advice. 

Q.  Do  you  now  refuse  to  answer  that  question?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Do  you  declare  dividends  at  the  end  of  each  fiscal  year  upon  the 
profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  on  the  business  of  klarshall  Field 
& Company?  A.  We  declare  dividends;  that  is  our  custom,  yes. 

Q.  Does  that  dividend  include  the  entire  net  profit  of  the  business? 
A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  it  in  1912?  A.  It  might  vary. 

Q.  Well,  say  for  the  year  1912,  approximately,  what  proportion  of 
the  net  profit  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  was  there  a dividend  declared 
on?  A.  Again  I must  decline  to  answer  without  seeking  legal  advice. 

Q.  You  refuse  to  answer  that  question?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  are  familiar,  however,  with  the  amount?  A.  I don’t  have  it 
in  mind. 

Q.  Well,  approximately,  you  are  familiar  with  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Simpson,  what  are  in  your  opinion  the  determining  factors 
in  fixing  the  rate  of  wages?  A.  The  value  of  the  service. 

Q.  That  is  a fundamental  factor?  A.  One  of  the  fundamental 
factors. 

Q.  Is  a man  or  a woman  out  of  a job  a fundamental  factor  in  de- 
termining the  rate  of  wages?  A.  I think  not. 

Q.  Isn’t  the  rate  of  wages  determined  by  competition  in  the  labor 
market  among  those  seeking  employment?  A.  To  some  extent,  perhaps. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  state  to  Senator  Juul,  or  Governor  O’Hara,  in  reply 
to  a question,  that  that  was  the  determining  factor?  A.  It  is  one  of 
the  determining  factors. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  is  not  because  you  desire  to  give  employment 
to  anybody  that  you  carry  on  the  business  of  Marshall  Field  & Company? 
A.  I do  not  mean  to  say  there  is  no  sentiment  in  our  business — I 
think  there  is  more  sentiment  in  our  business  than  in  other  businesses 
I know  anything  about. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Would  Mr.  Shedd  be  in  a position,  possibly, 
to  give  the  Committee  the  figures  you  have  refused  to  give  this  afternoon? 
A.  Mr.  Shedd  is  in  California. 

Q.  But  you  know,  approximately,  what  the  figures  are?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Commission  may  desire  to  interrogate  }mu 
further.  You  are  excused  until  ten  o’clock  tomorrow  morning. 

THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you.  In  connection  with  the  conditions 
of  labor  I would  like  to  say  that  our  working  hours  for  female  help  are 
eight  hours  a day.  In  the  wholesale  department  we  close  Saturday  at 
one  o’clock  all  the  year  around.  In  the  retail  we  close  on  Saturdays  at 
one  o’clock  during  July  and  August.  We  give  two  weeks  vacation  to 
%11  that  have  been  in  our  employ  one  year  or  more.  Those  who  have  been 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


209 


employed  for  less  than  a year  get  one  week.  In  many  cases  when  they 
r are  sick  we  allow  them  pay.  We  keep  a trained  nurse  in  the  building. 
We  have  one  private  room  and  free  beds  in  the  Presbyterian  hospital 
and  an  arrangement  with  St.  Luke’s  hospital  where  the  employes  may 
go  if  sick  and  unable  to  take  care  of  themselves. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  endeavor  to  take  care  of  those  who  have 
no  home  to  go  to?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Lunch  is  served  in  our  employes’ 
lunch  room  at  an  average  of  between  10  and  11  cents.  We  have  a school 
for  the  junior  help,  that  is,  boys  and  girls  in  the_  store  where  they  can 
study  arithmetic,  grammar,  spelling  and  penmanship.  This  time  is  given 
them  during  business  hours.  The  attendance  at  this  school  is  compulsory 
and  is  continued  until  the  pupil  has  acquired  a degree  of  education  in 
these  particular  branches  of  study.  We  have  a branch  of  the  Chicago 
Public  Library  in  our  building.  We  have  a music  room  for  our  employes 
and  a gymnasium  is  now  in  process  of  construction. 

Q.  So  you  maintain,  Mr.  Simpson,  that  there  is  a sentiment  in  your 
business,  after  all?  A.  Oh,  yes,  there  is  a good  deal  of  sentiment. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  are  here  trying  to  solve  this  problem  and 
want  all  the  help  we  can  get.  MR.  SIMPSON:  We  want  to  help  you 
■ all  we  can. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Simpson,  you  are  excused  for  the  present. 
Mr.  Roy  Shayne’s  Testimony. 

ROY  SHAYNE,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 
by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Please  state  your  name.  A.  Roy  Shayne. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  I am  connected  with  John  T. 
Shayne  & Company. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  the  business  of  that  firm?  A.  Hatters  and 
furriers. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection  with  that  firm?  A.  I am  president. 

Q.  As  president,  you  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  woman 
workers,  are  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ  in  your  place  of  business? 

I A.  Eight. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid?  A.  Eight  dollars. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  highest  wage  paid?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  Mr.  Shayne,  that  the  matter  of  wages  has  any- 
thing to  do  with  the  morality  of  women?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know.  I 

should  think  it  would  have  something  to  do  with  it,  yes. 

Q.  Do  you  think  an  employer  has  any  moral  responsibility  toward 

the  women  who  are  working  for  him?  A.  That  never  came  to  our 

notice. 

Q.  What  do  you  think,  Mr.  Shayne,  is  a fair  living  wage  for  a 
; woman?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know.  I should  judge  eight  dollars  or  nine 
dollars  a week. 

Q.  About  eight  or  nine  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  less  than  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  In  a 

■i  few  instances  we  have  had  assistance  for  seven  dollars  and  six  dollars 

I I for  a very  limited  period  of  time. 

■<  Q.  If  you  have  an  opinion  on  the  matter  of  wages  paid  women 

l'  by  their  employers,  will  you  please  express  that  opinion  to  the  Committee? 

A.  I have  an  opinion  that  it  depends  on  the  type  of  employe  that  is 
l|  used.  The  type  of  people  we  use  have  to  have  an  education  and  have 
||  to  look  well;  consequently  we  would  pay  them  more  money.  I don’t 
I"  know  what  would  be  a living  wage  in  other  commodities,  people  handling 
[ other  commodities.  We  handle  nothing  but  luxuries  in  our  place. 

I,  _ SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Chairman,  I don’t  think  this  case  comes 
I within  our  investigation.  We  have  been  dropping  down  to  four  and  five 
i dollars  a week,  and  the  witness  says  they  pay  eight  to  twenty-five 
I dollars. 

I 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


THE  CHAIRMAN:  I thank  you,  Mr.  Shayne,  on  behalf  of  the 
Committee  and  you  will  be  excused.  The  Committee  wishes  to  announce 
that  the  next  witnesses  are  to  be  women  and  if  there  are  any  women 
present  who  desire  to  retire,  the  opportunity  is  now  extended  to  them. 
We  do  not  know  the  nature  of  the  testimony  to  be  introduced  now'.  If 
any  women  desire  to  leave,  they  have  the  opportunity  now. 

A R ’s  Testimony. 

A R , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  dulj'  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  A R — ^ . 

Q.  What  is  your  age,  please?  A.  I am  thirty-eight  years  old. 

Q.  Where  are  you  at  present  engaged?  A.  2101  Dearborn  Street, 
Chicago. 

Q.  Is  that  what  is  commonly  known  as  a sporting  house?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  this  Committee  under  what  circumstances  you  were 
brought  to  that  place,  and  if  that  is  the  first  place  you  were  ever  in? 
A.  It  was  not  the  first  place. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  this  Committee  under  what  circumstances  you  were 
brought  to  the  first  place  you  were  brought  to?  A.  I was  working  in 
a laundry  for  four  dollars  a week. 

Q.  You  were  working  in  a laundry  for  four  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  and  I didn’t  make  enough  to  take  care  of  mj'self. 

Q.  And  you  left  your  employment  at  four  dollars  a week?  A.  I 
couldn’t  live  on  four  dollars  a week  and  keep  my  children.  I couldn’t 

live  by  myself  on  four  dollars  a week,  much  less  support  my  two  children. 

Q.  And  that  is  what  caused  your  downfall?  A.  Yes,  that  is  what 
caused  my  downfall. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  at  that  time?  A.  Twentj'-six  years. 

Q.  You  had  two  children?  A.  Yes,  a boy  and  a girl. 

Q.  Have  you  got  that  little  boy  and  girl  still?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but 

I don’t  have  them  here. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Chairman,  I don’t  think  there  is  any  neces- 
sity at  all  for  continuing  the  examination  of  this  witness.  She  says  she 
earned  four  dollars  a week  and  she  could  not  support  herself  and  family. 
THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  witness  is  excused. 

P B ’s  Testimony. 

P B , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  dul}'  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  given  your  name  to  the  investigator? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  write  your  name  on  a piece  of  paper?  Mr. 
Scouten  will  take  the  names  when  they  leave  the  stand. 

SENATOR  JLWfL:  What  is  your  residence?  A.  Cadillac  Hotel. 
Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  Between  21st  and  22nd  Street  on 
Wabash  Avenue. 

Q.  Are  you  engaged  in  what  is  commonly  known  as  sporting?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  mind  telling  this  Committee  how  long  it  is  since  you 
started?  A.  Four  years. 

Q.  Will  you  please  tell  the  reason  for  your  engaging  in  that  line? 
A.  I worked  in  a shoe  factory  and  I didn’t  make  enough. 

Q.  What  were  you  receiving?  A.  Five  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Did  you  have  parents  that  supported  you?  A.  No.  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  have  parents  supporting  3-ou?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  find  yourself  unable  to  live  on  the  amount  of  wage  you 
got?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


211 


Q.  Then,  what  happened?  Then  you  started  in  this  life?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  you  found  the  life  equally  hard?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  you  would  have  gone  astray  if  you  had  had  suf- 
ficient wage  to  support  yourself?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  think  you  would  likely  have  been  a good  girl  if  you  had  had 
decent  wages  to  live  on?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  worked  in  the  shoe  factory?  A.  I 
worked  in  the  shoe  factory  when  I was  fourteen  years  old. 

Q.  Did  your  folks  live  in  the  city?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  this  shoe  factory?  A.  In  Cincinnati,  Ohio. 

Q.  Where  did  your  parents  live?  A.  In  Portsmouth,  Ohio. 

Q.  You  worked  there  for  quite  a number  of  years  in  this  shoe  fac- 
tory and  you  only  got  five  dollars  a week  and  you  quit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  start  to  go  wrong?  How  long  after  you  had 
worked  in  the  shoe  factory,  about  what  age?  A.  About  eighteen. 

Q.  You  had  worked  about  four  years  in  the  shoe  factory  when  you 
went  wrong?  A.  No,  I have  been  in  this  life  four  years. 

Q.  Oh,  you  had  been  in  this  life  prior  to  the  time  you  worked  in 
the  shoe  factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  your  downfall  came  while  you  were  working  in  the  shoe 
factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  it  was  the  wages  in  the  shoe  factory  that  made  you 
go  wrong?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  Why  was  it  that  you  did  go  wrong?  A.  I needed  money. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  old  are  you  now?  A.  Twenty-three;  I 
will  be  the  13th  of  May. 

Q.  When  you  left  a respectable  life  you  were  making  five  dollars 
a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  you  making  now?  How  much  money  is  given  you 
every  week?  A.  Twenty-five  or  thirty  dollars. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Twenty-five  or  thirty  dollars  a week.  In  other 
words,  the  witness  left  a respectable  life  to  go  into  another  kind  of  life 
to  increase  her  earning  capacity.  That  is  all. 

R M ’s  Testimony. 

R M , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Kindly  give  your  name?  A.  R M . 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  I am  twenty-two  years  old. 

Q.  Are  you  living  in  a sporting  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  business?  A.  Well,  not  long. 

Q.  How  long  would  you  say?  A.  About  two  years  and  a half. 

Q.  Before  entering  that  kind  of  life  you  were  a good  girl?  A.  No, 
sir,  I was  working,  but  couldn’t  live  for  three  dollars  a week. 

Q.  You  were  working  for  three  dollars  a week  in  what  business? 
A.  In  a factory. 

Q.  In  what  factory?  A.  A factory  in  St.  Louis. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  that  factory?  A.  Clinton  & Martin  Paper 
Factory. 

Q.  You  were  getting  three  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a day  did  you  work?  A.  We  worked  from 

seven  in  the  morning  until  six  in  the  evening  and  then  we  worked  over- 

time some  time. 

Q.  Were  you  living  at  home  with  your  parents  at  the  time?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Your  father  and  mother  were  alive?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  your  wages?  Did  you  give  the  money 


212 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


to  your  father  and  mother  or  did  you  spend  it  on  yourself?  A.  I spent 
some  on  myself  and  give  some  to  them. 

Q_.  You  worked  in  the  factory  how  long?  A.  Well,  ever  since  1 
was  sixteen  years  old. 

Q.  You  were  a good  girl  when  you  were  in  the  factory?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  leave  the  factory?  A.  I could  not  live  off  of  that 
and  I thought  my  people  were  getting  tired  and  they  wanted  more  money 
and  I could  not  help  support  them. 

Q.  You  thought  your  parents  were  getting  dissatisfied  because  j^ou 
were  unable  to  bring  in  more  money  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  mentioned  that  at  home?  A.  They  never  mentioned  it, 
but  it  looked  that  way. 

Q.  And  you  grew  dissatisfied?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  first  step  you  made?  Did  you  go  to  a sporting 
house  and  apply  for  a position?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  there  with  someone?  A.  No,  sir.  I went  alone. 

Q.  You  went  there  in  desperation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  to  that  house  because  you  were  despondent?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  regretted  that  step?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  much  money  did  you  make  last  week?  A. 
I could  not  say. 

Q.  Would  you  say  twenty-five  dollars?  A.  Not  twentj--five  dollars. 

Q.  You  want  to  be  good,  don’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  would  you  prefer  with  your  experience  in  both  lives? 
Would  you  prefer  to  lead  a life  where  you  could  make  twenty-five  dollars 
a week,  or  go  back  to  the  old  life  and  make  three  dollars  a week?  A.  I 
could  not  live  on  three  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  put  back  in  the  old  life  with  your  father  and 
mother  at  twelve  dollars,  would  you  think  that  sufficient?  A.  I could 
support  myself  on  that. 

Q.  And  you  would  return?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  want  to  return  if  you  could  get  twelve  dollars  a week? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  WAAGE:  How  old  were  you  when  you  went  to  work 
in  the  factory?  A.  16. 

Q.  How  many  years  did  you  work  there?  A.  I worked  there  about 
five  years. 

Q.  And  your  wages  were  not  increased  during  the  time  you  worked 
there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  when  you  were  twenty  or  twenty-one  you  were  earning  the 
same  pay  as  when  you  started?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a daj'  did  you  work?  A.  From  seven  in  the 
morning  until  six  at  night,  sometimes  overtime. 

Q.  Did  you  go  out  for  your  meals?  A.  We  had  half  an  hour  for 
dinner. 

Q.  So  you  worked  ten  and  a half  hours  steadily  at  this  work?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  worked  as  hard  as  you  could,  I presume  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  witness  is  excused. 

L C ’s  Testimony. 

L C , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 

was  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  and  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Beall,  will  you  examine  the  witness? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  No,  I prefer  not.  I am  a better  listener. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Juul,  will  you  examine  the  witness? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


213 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Please  give  your  name.  A.  L C . 

Q.  Would  you  mind  telling  us  how  old  you  are?  A.  I am  twenty- 
one  years  old. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1 live  at  2101  Dearborn  Street. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there?  A.  About  two  months. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  line  of  life?  A.  About  two 

years. 

Q.  What  were  you  engaged  in  before  that?  A.  I was  with  the 
telephone  company. 

Q.  Were  you  employed  here  in  Chicago?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  employed?  A.  In  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  this  Committee  what  you  look  upon  as  .the  cause 
for  your  leaving  a business  and  going  into  this  life?  A.  I couldn’t  say 
exactly.  I worked  for  sixteen  to  twenty  dollars  a month. 

Q.  An  average  of  from  four  to  five  dollars  a week?  A.  Well,  it 
would  be  four  to  five  dollars  a week. 

Q.  It  kept  you  too  busy  to  spend  it  all?  A.  Yes,  I could  spend  it. 

Q.  You  felt  that  you  were  unable  to  live  decently  on  those  wages? 

■ A.  You  have  to  pay  four  dollars  for  board. 

Q.  Did  you  live  with  your  parents?  A.  No,  sir,  my  parents  are 

• dead. 

Q.  You  were  in  a position  where  you  had  to  get  your  board  and 

• lodging  and  clothing  and  everything  out  of  this  four  or  five  dollars  a 
week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  found  you  could  not  live  decently  and  it  was  a hard  struggle 
to  get  along  and  you  quit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  where  did  you  go?  A.  I was  in  Cleveland  then. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  to  Chicago?  A.  About  two  months  ago. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  here  ever  since?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  find  it  easier  earning  money  in  the  life  you  are  now  in 
than  the  life  you  led  before?  A.  It  isn’t  easier,  but  you  can  earn  more 
money. 

Q.  You  simply  gave  up  the  struggle  on  the  ground  that  you  couldn’t 
live  on  what  you  earned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  brought  here  to  Illinois  by  any  man?  A.  No,  sir, 
I came  here  alone. 

Q.  No  one  placed  you  where  you  are  now?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  Chicago?  A.  I just  came. 

Q.  Without  the  suggestion  of  any  one?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  select  Chicago?  A.  I don’t  know.  I just  thought 
Chicago  would  be  a good  place. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  you  tell  me  the  name  of  the  sporting  house 
you  were  in  in  Cleveland?  A.  I wasn’t  in  any  particular  place.  I 
didn’t  say  I went  in  any  sporting  house. 

Q.  Where  were  you  living  in  Cleveland,  Ohio?  A.  On  Chestnut 
Street. 

Q.  What  number?  A.  1617  Chestnut  Street. 

Q.  Was  it  a sporting  house?  A.  No,  it  is  not  a sporting  house, 
ij  It  is  a plain  rooming  house. 

I SENATOR  WAAGE:  You  mean  you  casually  took  people  up  to 
[ the  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  continued  t’nat  practice  since  you  came  to  Chicago? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q_.  How  much  do  you  make  a week,  about?  A.  About  twenty-five 
or  thirty  dollars. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  you  made  four  or  five  dollars  a week  with 
the  telephone  company?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  the  telephone  company  in  Cleveland? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Was  that  the  general  wage  paid?  A.  They 
start  you  in  at  six  dollars  a month. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  the  company?  A.  The  Toledo  Telephone 
Company.  I mean  they  start  you  in  at  sixteen  dollars  a month. 

Q.  They  start  you  in  at  $16  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  amount  do  they  increase  your  wages?  A.  They  are 
increased  gradually  to  thirty  dollars  a month. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  think  if  you  could  get  twelve  dollars 
a week  you  could  live  decently  and  honestly?  A.  Yes,  I would  be  glad 
to  work  for  twelve  dollars  a week. 

Q.  You  think  twelve  dollars  a week  would  keep  j-ou  nicely?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  have  had  different  opinions  as  to  wages, 
some  say  eight  dollars  and  some  say  ten  dollars  and  some  say  twelve 
dollars.  What  do  you  think  as  to  the  wages  being  eight  dollars,  ten 
dollars  or  twelve  dollars  a week?^  A.  We  have  got  to  pay  five  dollars 
at  least  for  board  and  room,  and  that  is  doing  very  well.  Then  we 
have  got  street  car  fare  and  other  expenses. 

R R ’s  Testimony. 

R R ^ — , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRAiAN:  Will  you  please  give  your  name?  A.  R 

R . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  I am  twenty-six  years  old. 

Q.  You  are  in  a sporting  house?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  a cafe. 

Q.  It  is  what  is  commonly  known  as  a sporting  house?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  kind  of  business?  A.  About 
seven  years. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  prior  to  that  time?  A.  I worked  at  house 
work,  factory  work  and  store  ■work. 

Q.  What  was  the  last  position  j'ou  had?  A.  Store  work. 

Q.  In  what  city?  A.  St.  Louis,  Alissouri. 

Q.  In  what  store?  A.  In  Booth’s  Dr}'  Goods  store. 

Q.  Where  is  that  store  located?  A.  23rd  and  Olive  Streets. 

Q.  What  salary  or  -wage  were  you  paid  there?  A.  Four  dollars 
and  a half  a week. 

Q.  Did  that  wage  have  anything  to  do  with  your  entering  the 
sporting  life?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  was  that?  A.  Well,  it  was  not  enough  to  clothe  me  and 
pay  my  board. 

SENATOR  JUL^L:  It  was  not  enough  to  clothe  you  and  pay  your 
board?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  It  is  the  same  old  story. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  And  because  the  wage  was  not  sufficient  you 
decided  to  sell  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I think  that  is  all. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  It  is  simply  a repetition. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  did  you  happen  to  come  to  Chicago? 
A.  I just  wanted  to  make  a change. 

Q.  Did  anybody  come  with  }'ou?  A.  No,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Wull  you  raise  your  left  hand?  fThe  witness 
raised  her  left  hand.)  What  ring  is  that  on  your  hand?  A.  iMy  mother’s 
wedding  ring. 

Q.  Why  do  you  wear  that?  A.  Because  she  is  dead  and  it  is  the 
only  thing  I have  of  hers,  and  I keep  that  to  remember  her. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


215 


Q.  Do  the  girls  in  your  kind  of  life  wear  wedding  rings  very  com- 
monly? A.  I couldn’t  say,  I don’t  know  that. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  all  of  the  girls  in  that  life  wear  wedding 
rings?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  married?  A.  No,  sir. 

I H -’s  Testimony. 

I H , a witness  called,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  you  please  state  your  name?  A.  I 

H . 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside?  A.  At  23  and  25 — 21st  Street,  Chicago. 

Q.  What  is  your  business.  A.  I am  running  a hotel. 

Q.  What  hotel?  A.  The  Casino  Hotel  up  over  a cafe. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  cafe?  A.  The  Casino  cafe. 

Q.  You  are  in  what  is  commonly  known  as  the  sporting  business? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  business?  A.  I have  run  the 
place  for  two  years. 

Q.  What  we  w^nt  to  get  at  is,  what  was  the  cause  of  your  going 
into  this  business?  A.  To  make  money  enough  to  keep  myself. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  before  that?  A.  I was  working. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  then?  A.  From  10  to  17  years. 

Q.  You  had  to  shift  for  yourself  from  the  age  of  ten  years?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  cause  of  that?  A.  My  parents  died. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  from  ten  to  seventeen  years?  A.  House 
work. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  work  in  a store  or  factory?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  working  what  wage  did  you  get?  A.  $3.50 
a week. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  $3.50  a week?  A.  .Yes,  sir,  and  my  board. 

SENATOR  WAAGE:  You  had  to  support  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  go  into  the  sporting  life?  A.  I started 
running  around.  I would  run  around  for  awhile  and  go  back  and  go  to 
work. 

Q.  Was  your  work  hard?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work?  A.  I went  to  work  about  five  o’clock 
and  worked  to  about  seven  or  eight  o’clock. 

Q.  In  your  present  line  of  business  what  are  you  able  to  earn? 
A.  $50  to  $60  a week. 

Q.  Were  you  born  in  Chicago?  A.  No,  sir,  in  Michigan. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from?  A.  From  Grand  Rapids,  Michigan. 

Q.  When?  A.  About  six  years  ago. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  to  Chicago?  A.  I just  thought  I 
would  like  to  come  here. 

Q.  You  have  been  at  this  business  about  seven  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  a division  as  is  the  custom  in  that  business?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  much  do  the  girls  earn  a week,  twenty-five  or  thirty  dollars 
a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


216  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  And  your  earnings  are  about  fifty  to  sixty  dollars  a week?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Where  do  you  get  your  girls  from?  A.  They 
come  around  the  cafe. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  pay  anybody  to  bring  girls  to  your  place?  A.  No, 
sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  witness  will  be  excused.  The  meeting  will 
now  be  adjourned  until  ten  o’clock  tomorrow  morning. 

Thereupon  at  five  o’clock  P.  M.  the  Committee  took  an  adjourn- 
ment to  Saturday,  March  8,  1913,  at  10  o’clock  A.  M. 


SESSION  VI 


Information  gathered  at  previous  sessions  from  department 
store  proprietors  is  supplemented  by  the  testimony  of: 

Mr.  Edward  Hillman. 

Mr.  John  M.  Glenn  appears  in  answer  to  subpoena  and  dis- 
claims any  personal  knowledge  to  support  statements  appearing 
upon  his  responsibility  in  an  article  published  in  The  Manufac- 
turers’ News,  owned  by  him,  which  statements  questioned  the 
motive  actuating  the  activities  of  the  Committee,  and  particularly 
its  Chairman.  Lieut.-Gov.  Barratt  O’Hara,  Chairman,  makes  a 
statement.  • 

Saturday,  March  8,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 
The  Committee  reconvened  on  Saturday,  March  8,  1913,  at  10 
o’clock  A.  M.,  whereupon  the  following  proceedings,  were  had : 

Mr.  Edward  Hillman’s  Testimony. 

EDWARD  HILLMAN,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Will  you  please  give  your  name?  A.  Edward  Hillman. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Hillman?  A.  I am  in  the  depart- 
ment store  business. 

Q.  With  what  company  are  you  connected?  A.  With  the  Hillman 
Company. 

Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection  with  that  corporation?  A.  I am  secre- 
tary and  treasurer  and  general  manager  of  the  business. 

Q.  As  general  manager  you  are  familiar,  I suppose,  with  the  wages 
paid  woman  employes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  the  privilege,  I presume,  of  both  employing  and 
discharging  woman  employes?  A.  I have  the  privilege,  but  I do  not 
exercise  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  what  do  you  consider,  if  any,  is  the  connection  be- 
tween low  wages  paid  to  woman  workers  and  morality  among  women? 
A.  Well,  in  some  cases  it  might  have  a connection  and  in  some  cases  it 
might  not. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a woman  getting  eight  dollars  and  needing  neces- 
sities that  cost  her  ten  dollars  a week,  is  well  fortified  to  resist  temp- 
tation? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  there  are  some  women  who  would  starve  be- 
fore they  would  sell  their  virtue?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  You  think  that  every  woman  would  try  to  save  her  virtue? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  how  many  women  are  employed  at  your  place  of 
business?  A.  817. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  these  women?  A.  The  average 
wage  paid  is  eight  dollars  and  seventy-one  cents;  that  is  Omitting  the 
salaries  of  buyers  and  other  high  salaried  employes.  We  have  girls 
earning  eight  dollars  a week  as  a salary  who  are  supposed  to  sell  $160 
worth  of  goods  a week  and  if  they  sell  over  $160  worth  a week  they  would 
get  a commission  of  two  and  one-half  per  cent.  If  a girl  sold  $260  worth 
of  goods  she  would  get  the  commission.  A girl  getting  eight  dollars 

217 


218 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


a week  salary  is  expected  to  sell  $160  worth  of  goods.  If  she  sells  over 
that  amount  she  is  paid  a bonus  on  all  she  sells  over  that  amount. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  salary  paid  to  any  employe  at  Hillman’s? 
A.  Of  our  817  we  have  ninety-nine  females  whose  ages  are  up  to  16 
years.  Forty-six  of  them  receive  five  dollars;  twenty-four  receive  four 
dollars;  twenty-three  receive  three  dollars  and  a half,  and  six,  I think, 
receive  three  dollars  of  the  817  female  employes.  These  are  not  sales- 
ladies. 

Q.  What  do  these  girls  do  that  receive  three  dollars  a week?  A. 
Those  are  girls  that  simply  run  errands;  for  instance,  if  you  come  into  the 
store  and  bring  a hat  back  and  want  it  exchanged,  the  little  girl  carries 
it  back  to  the  stock. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Hillman,  anything  about  the  home  life  of 
these  girls  who  are  drawing  three  dollars  a week?  A.  I don’t  know 
anything  about  it,  only  that  I spoke  to  the  superintendent  because  I was 
here  yesterday  and  I heard  some  of  those  questions  and  I spoke  to  the 
superintendent.  He  said  that  most  of  those  girls  who  are  getting  three 
dollars  and  three  and  a half  a week  are  brought  into  the  store  by  the  fathers 
and  mothers  who  ask  us  to  give  them  a position  where  they  can  learn  to 
advance  themselves.  He  said  he  rarely  puts  them  on  unless  the  father 
and  mother  or  one  of  them  asks  for  the  position. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  any  record  as  to  the  girls  applying  for  positions? 
A.  The  applications  are  on  file,  I think. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  do  you  consider  that  as  an  employer  of  girls  you 
have  any  moral  responsibility?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  consider  as  the  moral  responsibility  of  an  em- 
ployer in  that  way?  A.  We  have  women  who  make  it  a business  to  go 
around  to  see  these  girls.  We  have  a female  doctor  employed  in  our 
store  who  looks  after  these  girls  and  if  anything  is  out  of  the  regular 
order  it  is  recorded. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  if  you  found  that  a girl  working  for  j-our  house 
and  was  being  paid  three  dollars  a week  and  j^ou  discovered  that  that  girl 
had  lost  her  virtue  as  a result  of  the  low  wages  paid  her,  would  you  as 
a man,  feeling  the  pangs  of  conscience,  consider  that  3'ou  should  assist 
her?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I certainly  would. 

Q.  You  would  consider  in  a way  that  j'ou  were  responsible  for  her 
downfall?  A.  I don’t  know  about  that.  I don’t  think  I would  want  to 
give  this  girl  three  dollars  a week  unless  she  had  a home  to  live  in 
with  her  father  and  mother. 

Q.  You  consider  it,  then,  one  of  the  incidents  of  life  or  one  of  the 
incidents  of  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  salary  paid  to  anj-  woman  worker  not  a 
department  head  or  buyer  at  Hillman’s?  A.  $25  and  $30. 

Q.  Have  you  any  women  working  for  j'ou  who  started  at  three 
dollars  a week  and  who  are  now  drawing  thirty  dollars  a week?  A.  Me 
have  a girl  who  started  on  three  dollars  and  is  now  drawing  twentj'-seven 
dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  long  has  she  been  with  Hillman?  A.  About  nine  j’ears. 

Q.  What  is  her  present  age?  A.  She  is  about  twent3'-seven  or 

twenty-eight  years  of  age. 

Q.  Can  you  briefly  tell  the  Committee  the  successive  promotions 
of  that  girl  from  the  time  she  started  at  three  dollars  a week  until  the 

present  time?  A.  At  three  dollars  a week  I think  she  was  in  the  auditing 

room,  assorting  sales  checks,  and  from  that  she  rose  to  other  positions 
and  was  finally  promoted  as  one  of  our  head  cashiers. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  do  3^011,  yourself,  see  the  work  that  these  girls  are 
doing?  A.  A good  deal  of  it.  A good  deal  of  it  is  under  the  manager 
and  superintendent,  but  I see  a good  deal  of  it  in  the  store. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible,  Mr.  Hillman,  under  your  system  for  a 

very  competent  girl  of  unusual  ability  to  get  a promotion  mereh'  because 
her  superior  should  perhaps  favor  her?  A.  No,  sir,  it  never  would. 

Q.  That  would  be  impossible?  A.  It  would  be  impossible. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


219 


Q.  Suppose  a girl  had  merited  the  disapproval  of  her  superior,  do 
you  think  she  would  be  reprimanded?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  your  girls  working  for  five  dollars  a week  are 
supposed  to  be  living  at  home?  A.  Pretty  near  all  of  them. 

Q.  You  have  in  your  store  what  are  called  floor  walkers?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  discharged  a floorwalker  because  of  charges  made 
against  that  floorwalker  by  a girl  employe?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  has  that  happened?  A.  It  might  happen  any 
time. 

Q.  Whenever  a girl  complains  that  a floorwalker  is  trying  to  allure 
her  from  the  paths  of  righteousness  and  virtue,  he  is  discharged?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  When  he  is  discharged,  his  name  is  given  to  other  stores  on 
State  Street  and  put  on  a black  list?  A.  No,  sir;  no  black  list.  We 
do  not  call  it  that. 

Q.  You  do  not  call  it  that,  but  you  give  the  name  to  the  other  stores? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  report  the  name  to  the  other  stores  on  State  Street  in 
the  same  line  of  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  he  is  unable  to  get  employment  from  any  other  store? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  a girl  is  making  three  dollars  a week  at  Hillman’s  is  she  at 
liberty  to  go  to  Marshall  Field’s  and  apply  for  a job  there?  A.  Yes, 
and  they  do  it.  They  are  at  liberty  to  go  anywhere  and  apply  for  a 
position. 

Q.  A girl  who  leaves  you  is  not  put  on  the  black  list  or  reported 
to  other  stores  so  that  she  cannot  get  a position  elsewhere?  A.  No, 
other  stores  will  hire  their  help.  That  is  competition.  It  is  one  of  the 
reasons  that  salaries  go  up  so  high. 

SENATOR  JUUL.  It  seems  that  salaries  do  not  go  up  very  fast. 

MR.  HILLMAN:  They  are  going  up.  Every  day  the  payroll  gets 
heavier. 

Q.  Then,  there  is  no  understanding  among  merchants  on  State 
Street  of  that  nature?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  that  that  is  the  common  report,  do  you  not?  A.  It 
is  not  so. 

Q.  Suppose  a country  girl  comes  to  Chicago  to  seek  a position 
and  hasn’t  very  much  experience  and  she  is  willing  to  take  three  or  four 
dollars  a week,  where  should  she  apply  in  your  place?  A.  She  would 
have  to  go  to  the  superintendent. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  on  which  a woman  can  support  herself  respect- 
ably in  Chicago?  A.  Between  eight  and  ten  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Could  she  do  it  on  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  but  she 
would  not  have  much  spending  money. 

Q.  Could  you  live  on  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  I certainly  could 
and  live  well.  I could  live  on  ten  dollars  if  I had  to. 

Q.  Have  you  a system  of  fines?  A.  Well,  we  have  practically  no 
fines.  We  do  not  fine  for  tardiness. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a girl  who  is  dependent  upon  her  own  resources 
can  live  well  on  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  About  eight  or  nine  dollars 
a week. 

Q.  You  think  she  could  do  it  on  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Perhaps 
so. 

Q.  And  on  eight  dollars  a week  would  she  have  any  money  for 
amusement,  any  nickel  shows,  things  of  that  kind?  A.  I should  say 
she  wouldn’t  have  a whole  lot.  I guess  you  are  right. 

Q.  How  about  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  Well,  she  could  live 
very  fine  on  twelve  dollars  a week,  couldn’t  she?  I can  live  on  twelve 
dollars  a week  and  I could  live  on  ten  dollars  a week  if  I had  to.  But 


220 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


I think  eight  to  nine  dollars  a week,  somewhere  around  there,  would  be 
all  right. 

Q.  How  many  girls  in  your  establishment  do  you  pay  less  than  eight 
or  nine  dollars  a week?  A.  There  are  871.  I don’t  think  we  have  got 
one  hundred  salesladies  in  our  store  or  150  that  are  not  getting  from 
six  to  seven  dollars. 

Q.  150?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  any  of  those  self-supporting?  A.  Right  off-handed  I couldn’t 
answer  that.  I don’t  think  there  are  any,  because  I asked  that  question 
of  our  superintendent.  He  said  they  were  young  people  who  lived  at 
horne. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  know  that  of  your  own  knowledge?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  made  inquiries  within  the  last  twenty-four  hours?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Can  you  furnish  this  Committee,  Mr.  Hillman,  with  the  names 
and  addresses  of  those  150  girls?  A.  I don’t  see  any  objection  to  fur- 
nishing the  Committee  with  that. 

Q.  We  would  like  to  know  who  those  girls  are?  A.  I don’t  see 
any  objection  to  furnishing  it. 

Q.  Of  those  150  girls,  Mr.  Hillman,  what  proportion  are  on  salary 
and  what  proportion  on  commission?  A.  They  are  pretty  nearly  all 
on  a commission  basis.  When  you  ask  about  the  salary  j'ou  do  not  get 
this  commission  basis  idea.  That  is  quite  an  item.  They  all  get  those 
chances  to  make  commissions. 

Q.  You  mean  that  a girl  who  is  making  six  dollars  a week  has  a 
chance  to  make  a commission  in  addition  to  the  six  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  as  a matter  of  fact,  you  do  have  a system  of  fines?  A.  Not 
a fine.  I will  tell  you  what  the  fines  consist  of.  We  don’t  believe  in 
having  anybody  come  in  late.  We  don’t  make  any  fines  for  anj^  mistakes 
except  mistakes  they  make  willingly.  For  instance,  if  you  came  in  there 
and  purchased  something  and  you  told  the  girl  to  keep  it  and  she  loses 
it,  she  is  charged  up  with  that.  We  have  a rule  that  she  has  no  right 
to  do  that.  The  girls  have  no  right  to  take  the  packages  to  keep  them. 
We  have  a place  where  we  keep  packages  Heft  bj'  customers. 

Q.  In  cases  of  loss  of  packages  would  3'OU  charge  the  value  of  the 
package  lost?  A.  If  more  than  eight  dollars  or  ten  dollars — we  can’t 
tell — it  might  be  fifty  dollars  or  a great  deal  less.  You  asked  me  about 
fines. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  case  where  a girl  making  five  dollars  a 
week  did  lose  a package  and  it  was  worth  ten  dollars  or  five  dollars? 
A.  No,  sir.  I am  just  illustrating  where  that  comes  in. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  you  stated  that  you  had  817  female  employes  in 
your  store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  the  average  wage  of  these  817  was  $8.71?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
as  salary  but  not  commission. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  what  number  of  those  girls  would  3'ou  sa.y  are 
drawing  under  eight  dollars  a week  salary?  A.  I should  think  about  150. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  is  a moral  or  legal  obligation  on  the  em- 
ployer to  pay  an  amount  of  money  commensurate  with  what  it  would 
take  to  clothe  and  feed  and  make  such  female  presentable  in  3-our  store, 
would  you  say  there  was  an  obligation  on  the  part  of  the  employer  in 
Illinois  which  would  render  that  necessary?  A.  No,  I don’t  know  that 
I do. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  was  an  obligation  resting  on  the  emplo^-er 
to  pay  a sum  of  money  equal  to  the  sum  of  money  it  would  take  for  a girl 
to  live  decently  on  when  working  for  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  stated  j^ou  believed  such  minimum  wage  should  be  wbat? 
A.  I should  say  about  eight  dollars. 

Q.  Could  j^ou  furnish  the  Committee  with  a list  of  the  things  an}- 
ordinary  female  worker  would  require  that  would  bring  it  within  eight 
dollars?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  you  could?  A.  I saj-  I don’t  know. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


221 


Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  you  could  or  not?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  room  rent  would  be  worth  in  the  city  of 
Chicago  for  a girl  who  is  working  and  dependent  on  her  own  resources? 
A.  I don’  tknow. 

Q.  I am  talking  about  ordinary  living  expenses.  A.  Room  and 
board  I should  think  about  five  or  six  dollars  a week;  maybe  four  dollars, 
but  I don’t  know.  I think  four  dollars  could  get  a very  nice  place  in 
some  families.  There  may  be  some  who  could  get  it  for  three  dollars, 
but  I can’t  tell. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  you  know  more  about  that  situation  than  this 
Committee?  A.  I don’t  think  I do.  I think  you  gentlemen  are  just 
as  able  to  get  the  information  as  I am. 

Q.  What  I am  trying  to  get  at  is,  what  in  your  estimation  would 
be  the  lowest  amount  of  money  that  it  would  take  for  a female  employe 
to  live  in  the  city  of  Chicago  decently.  I think  you  will  agree  with  this 
Committee  that  if  the  employer  does  not  pay  the  amount  of  money  neces- 
sary she  will  have  to  look  to  some  other  sources  to  make  up  the  difference. 
Now,  what  would  you  say  would  be  a minimum  wage  for  a woman  living 
on  her  own  resources?  A.  I said  between  eight  and  nine  dollars  a week. 

Q.  What  amount  of  money  would  it  take  weekly  to  lift  these  150 
woman  employes  from  their  present  wage  to  a living  wage?  A.  I don’t 
know.  I think  that  those  working  on  salaries  of  eight  to  nine  dollars 
a week  and  making  a commission  could  live  very  well. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  no  system  of  fines?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  investigators  who  follow  up  the  reports  of  girls 
who  apply  for  positions?  A.  No,  but  that  might  be  a very  good  plan. 

Q.  Will  you  institute  such  a system?  A.  Yes,  we  will  begin  with 
; the  system  at  once. 

j Q.  To  how  many  girls  do  you  say  you  pay  less  than  nine  dollars 

a week?  A.  I don’t  think  we  have  more  than  150  and  I think  they  re- 
side with  their  parents  or  relatives;  that  is,  I have  been  told  so. 

Q.  You  admit  there  is  a moral  responsibility  on  the  part  of  the 
employer?  A.  I do  to  a certain  extent. 

Q.  But  you  cannot  figure  out  the  actual  necessary  expenses  of  a 
young  woman  living  a respectable  life?  A.  No,  I have  no  means  of 
]]  doing  it. 

Q.  You  figure  that  practically  all  your  female  employes  are  getting 
what  you  would  call  a living  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  your  store  is  paying,  either  through  the 
system  of  commissions  or  on  the  basis  of  salary,  a better  wage  than 
prevails  as  an  average  on  State  Street?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  as  an  aver- 
age, but  we  pay  more  than  a good  many  stores  on  State  Street  because 
some  of  the  stores  do  not  have  this  system.  We  have  some  who  make 
eight  dollars  a week  and  with  a commission  as  much  as  $15  a week. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  is  the  average  amount  an  employe  could 
earn  a week  on  the  commission  system?  A.  Some  girls  getting  six 
dollars  earn  twelve  dollars,  fourteen  dollars  and  sixteen  dollars  a week. 
Besides  the  commission  basis  we  have  a system  where  we  buy  a lot  of 
dress  goods  and  we  say  to  the  clerks  if  you  will  sell  these  goods  quickly 
we  would  be  glad. 

, Q.  Would  you  say  that  in  your  experience  you  have  found  that  a 

lack  of  sufficient  funds  on  which  to  live  has  caused  girls  to  go  wrong 
morally?  A.  I believe  it  may  be  the  cause  in  some  cases. 

Q.  Would  you  seriously  oppose  any  attempt  on  the  part  of  the 
' State  of  Illinois  to  better  that  condition  of  the  women  of  Illinois  if  it 
necessitated  an  increase  in  your  payroll?  A.  We  would  be  glad  to  do  it. 

Q.  Would  you  be  willing  to  co-operate  with  the  state  in  an  effort 
to  bring  about  a living  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  I am  glad  to  hear  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Hillman,  what  was  the  net  profits  of  Hill- 
‘ man’s  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I wouldn’t  want  to  answer  that 
at  the  present.  I don’t  think  I would  have  any  objection,  but  I prefer 


222  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

to  get  legal  advice  before  giving  that  information.  I would  want  to  talk 
to  my  attorney. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Chairman,  Mr.  Simpson  has  tendered  this 
Committee  full  access  to  all  his  books  and  to  give  the  Committee  anything 
it  wants  to  know. 

Q.  ^r.  Hillman,  are  you  willing  to  do  that?  A.  I am  wdlling  to 
do  so. 

MR.  SIMPSON:  The  only  qualifying  statement  I have  to  make  to 
Senator  Juul’s  remark  is,  that  any  information  bearing  on  this  subject 
which  we  can  give  we  will  be  glad  to  give,  and  our  books  are  accessible 
to  the  Committee.  They  are  very  welcome  to  come  to  our  store  and  we 
will  be  glad  to  give  any  information  we  can  bearing  on  the  subject. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I might  say,  Mr.  Simpson,  that  in  a sense  this 
Committee  is  composed  of  all  the  people  of  Illinois  and  it  is  here  in  the 
interests  of  the  people  of  Illinois  and  whatever  is  demanded  is  in  the 
name  of  the  people  of  Illinois. 

MR.  SIMPSON:  Yes,  sir,  we  shall  be  glad  to  furnish  any  information 
we  have  and  to  assist  the  Committee  in  any  way  we  can. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  thank  you  much,  Mr.  Simpson,  and  any 
information  you  will  give  will  be  very  acceptable. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  how  much  did  you  start  on?  A.  I started  on 
twenty  dollars  a w'eek. 

Q.  And  you  have  worked  your  way  up?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Of  course 
I worked  on  much  smaller  wages  than  that. 

Q.  These  girls  that  get  three  dollars  and  a half  a week  are  girls 
that  have  a chance  for  advance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

Q.  What  is  the  percentage  of  women  that  make  commissions  who 
earn  five  dollars  a week?  A.  The  girl  that  gets  five  dollars  a week 
would  only  be  entitled  to  sell  ten  or  twelve  dollars  a week.  There  are 
some  women  who  sell  $100  worth  a week  and  they  get  a commission  of 
probably  fifteen  dollars. 

Q.  You  say  there  is  no  blacklist?  A.  No,  sir,  no  blacklist. 

Q.  Isn’t  there  some  kind  of  an  understanding  or  agreement  between 
the  heads  of  department  stores  that  w'here  a person  leaves  one  store 
they  cannot  get  a higher  w^age  at  another?  A.  No,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  are  you  acquainted  with  John  AI.  Glenn?  A.  No, 
sir,  I don’t  know  him. 

Q.  Has  any  man  approached  you  asking  you  to  contribute  toward 
a fund  to  be  raised  to  fight  the  fhinimum  wage  bill  in  Illinois?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  acquainted  with  John  AI.  Glenn?  A.  No,  sir. 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  Air.  Hillman,  do  j'^ou  make  an  annual 
report  of  your  corporate  affairs  to  the  L'nited  States  government  every 
year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  shows  j-our  gross  earnings?  A.  A’es,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  net  earnings?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  view  of  the  fact  that  that  is  information  given  out  to  the 
United  States  government,  do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  the  people 
of  the  State  of  Illinois  should  not  know  that?  A.  I don’t  know  of  any 
reason,  but  I would  like  to  consult  about  that. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Would  you  give  it  to  us  later?  A.  I know  of 
no  reason  why  not. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


223 


Q.  The  firm  of  Hillman  doesn’t  always  follow  Marshall  Field  & 
[ Company?  A.  No.  I will  tell  you  that  our  profits  are  not  so  great. 
1 Honestly,  I have  no  objection,  but  I want  to  get  a little  advice. 

" Q.  Why  not  lead  Marshall  Field  & Company  this  time?  A.  I don't 
i want  to  lead  Marshall  Field  & Company. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Are  there  any  members  of  the  Committee  or 
any  representatives  present,  of  the  General  Assembly,  who  desire  to  in- 
terrogate the  witness? 

REPRESENTATIVE  LLOYD:  Mr.  Hillman,  are  you  familiar  with 
I the  report  of  the  Vice  Commission  under  the  Busse  administration? 
1 A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  seen  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

: Q.  Have  you  heard  anything  about  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  of  course  you  would  not  be  familiar  with  the  frequent 
I statements  in  that  report  of  the  number  of  girls  from  the  department 
stores  who  have  gone  wrong?  A.  No,  sir,  I would  not  be  familiar 
■ with  it;  I don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

^ Q.  Suppose  I were  to  inform  you  that  a large  number  of  girls  from 
: department  stores  have  been  reported  on  the  best  evidence  to  have  sought 
lives  of  shame  on  account  of  the  low  wages  paid,  what  would  you  say 
as  to  that?  A.  I couldn’t  answer  that. 

[ Q.  Have  you  never  thought  of  it  at  all?  A.  It  never  came  to  my 

’ notice. 

. Q.  I am  informed  from  the  best  of  evidence  that  a large  number 
i of  girls  who  have  worked  in  department  stores  in  Chicago  are  notoriously 
known  to  be  leading  a life  of  shame  and  that  they  come  from  the  depart- 
ment stores?  A.  They  might  or  might  not.  I can’t  tell  you  as  to  that. 
Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  reason  that  so  many  girls  go  wrong? 
' A.  There  are  all  sorts  of  reasons.  There  are  the  mashers,  to  start  with 
One  of  our  men  threshed  a masher  one  time  very  badly  so  that  his 
i;  mother  would  hardly  know  him. 

’ Q.  If  you  knew  that  any  of  the  girls  were  going  wrong,  would  you 
,|:  be  willing  to  help  them?  A.  I would  be  very  glad  to. 
t Q.  Do  you,  when  any  girl  applies  to  you  for  a position,  ask  her  any 
I questions  with  regard  to  her  moral  life  or  do  you  ask  for  references? 
I A.  Yes,  we  look  them  up.  We  usually  want  them  to  give  us  the  name 
j of  some  minister  or  doctor  or  some  responsible  person  from  whom  we 

I may  get  some  line  on  them  and  as  to  whether  they  live  at  home.  If  we  get 
j any  letters  as  to  the  girls  we  make  inquiries. 

Q.  Mr.  Hillman,  what  would  you  say  about  the  moral  standard 
of  the  girls  in  your  store?  A.  I should  say  they  are  all  right,  as  far  as 

I I know. 

I Q.  You  think  the  moral  standard  is  of  the  highest?  A.  I think 
t so  positively.  I would  like  to  have  the  Committee,  or  any  of  you  gentle- 
! men,  come  to  our  store.  We  will  show  you  around  and  you  can -size  up 
i the  girls  and  you  can  tell  pretty  nearly  as  well  as  I can.  We  have  got 
a very  nice  lot  of  girls. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I will  accept  the  invitation. 

MR.  HILLMAN:  I wish  you  would.  Senator,  come  over  and  I will 

ishow  you  around  the  store. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  will  be  excused,  Mr.  Hillman,  until  ten 
o’clock  Monday  morning,  and  you  need  not  appear  unless  you  are  notified, 
i MR.  HILLMAN:  I will  bring  that  list  in. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN:  Thank  you. 

I Mr.  John  M.  Glenn’s  Testimony. 

; JOHN  M.  GLENN,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 
by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Give  us  your  name.  A.  John  M.  Glenn. 


224 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Glenn?  A.  I am  secretary  of  the 
Illinois  Manufacturers’  Association. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald  a member  of  that  organization  and  a 
contributor  to  it?  A.  He  is  a member  of  it. 

Q.  He  is  president  of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  derive  your  income  from  the  Illinois  Manufacturers’  Asso- 
ciation? A.  Partially. 

Q.  Then,  indirectly,  you  derive  part  of  your  income  from  the  firm 
of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company?  A.  You  might  figure  it  that  way. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  _ have  you  any  connection  with  the  Manufacturers’ 
News?  A.  I own  it. 

Q.  That  is  a publication  that  is  conducted  by  you  personally?  A.  By 
myself  personally. 

Q.  What  is  its  province,  what  is  the  excuse  for  its  existence?  A. 
Because  I want  it  to  be  published. 

Q.  Are  you  the  sole  proprietor?  A.  I am  the  owner;  no  one  else 
has  a cent  in  it. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  did  you  see  the  publication  of  the  Manufacturers’ 
News  of  March  6th,  1913?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  editorial  appearing  therein  under  the 
caption  “Let  the  men  testify?’’  A.  I am. 

Q.  Did  you  write  that?  A.  I wrote  the  body  of  the  editorial.  The 
box  head  appearing  there,  I wrote  part  of  it.  I am  responsible  for  it, 
anyway. 

Q.  You  are  responsible  for  the  editorial?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  state  that  under  oath?  A.  I state  that  under  oath. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  to  Mr.  Rosenwald  about  that  box  head?  A.  I did 

not. 

Q.  Will  you  look  at  this  and  see  if  it  is  apparently  genuine — I am 
referring  to  the  editorial  in  your  paper?  A.  I think  it  is;  it  looks  like  it. 

Q.  You  read  it  before  it  was  published,  Mr.  Glenn?  A.  I did. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  This  will  be  marked  Exhibit  A and  put  into 
the  record. 

(The  publication  of  “Manufacturers’  News”  of  March  6th,  1913, 
was  marked  Exhibit  A,  and  is  made  a part  of  this  record.) 

MR.  GLENN:  Upon  what  authority  did  you  write  the  editorial  and 
the  box  head  appearing  in  that  issue,  upon  whose  authority?  A.  No 
authority  except  my  own.  Do  you  mean  was  I requested  to  write  it  for 
someone? 

Q.  No,  had  you  any  facts  upon  which  to  base  the  matter  appearing 
in  that  box  head?  A.  I had  this  general  information  of  what  is  in  it. 

Q.  Had  you  any  information  at  all?  A.  I only  expressed  my  judg- 
ment. It  shows  that  is  my  judgment  or  the  judgment  of  the  paper. 

Q.  The  editorial  states:  “Lieutenant  Governor  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Chairman  of  the  so-called  ‘White  Slave  Commission,’  was  for  a number 
of  years  connected  with  the  Chicago  Examiner.”  Did  you  know  that 
to  be  true?  A.  I believe  that  is  true.  I understood  it  was  true. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it?  A.  I just  heard  it  around  town. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  Barratt  O’Hara  and  Andrew  M.  Lawrence 
together?  A.  I never  have. 

Q.  Then  you  say  “He  now  enjoys  the  fullest  confidence  of  Andrew 
Lawrence,  representative  of  the  Hearst  papers  in  Chicago?  Have  j’ou 
ever  heard  that  Barratt  O’Hara  and  Andrew  M.  Lawrence  were  not  on 
the  basis  of  the  closest  friendship?  A.  I have  heard  they  were. 

Q.  Then  you  make  this  statement  without  having  the  slightest  foun- 
dation of  fact?  A.  No,  I don’t  make  it  without  any  foundation  of  fact. 
I think  it  is  generally  known  around  town  among  newspaper  men. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  give  me  one  instance  where  one  man  told  you 
that  Andrew  Lawrence  and  Barratt  O’Hara  were  close  friends?  A.  I 
don’t  think  of  anyone  just  now. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


225 


Q.  And  yet  you  say  it  is  of  common  knowledge?  A.  I think  it  is. 

Q.  You  cannot  remember  one  man  that  said  that?  A.  No,  I don’t 
remember  one  man. 

Q.  You  then  say:  “It  is  our  judgment  that  this  investigation  would 
not  be  nearly  so  vigorous  if  the  State  Street  merchants  would  furnish 
the  Hearst  papers  with  a sufficient  amount  of  fiill-page  advertising  to 
satisfy  the  greed  of  Mr.  Lawrence.”  Is  that  your  judgment?  A.  It  is. 
' Q.  Is  that  your  judgment — tainted  by  the  money  you  are  receiving 
from  certain  sources  who  have  appeared  before  this  Committee?  A.  I 
don’t  think  my  judgment  is  tainted.  If  my  judgment  was  tainted  I think 
I would  be  the  last  person  that  should  be  called  upon  to  express  my 
judgment  in  that  respect. 

Q.  What  is  the  circulation  of  this  publication,  Mr.  Glenn?  A.  The 
circulation  is  between  two  and  three  thousand  a week. 

Q.  Might  I ask  what  your  advertising  rates  are,  roughly?  A.  Well, 
it  is  fifty  dollars  a page  or  fifteen  hundred  and  sixteen  dollars  by  the  year. 

Q.  Fifty  dollars  per  page  for  two  or  three  thousand  circulation? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  mailing  this  publication  to  the  members  of  the  General 
Assembly?  A.  Yes,  sir,  each  member  gets  it  and  a good  many  other 
people;  we  mail  quite  a number  of  them. 

Q.  Do  the  members  pay  for  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  Are  they  marked  “sample  copies?”  A.  I don’t  know,  but  they 
are  mailed  through  the  post  office. 

Q.  How  many  State  Street  merchants,  if  any,  belong  to  this  organi- 
zation? A.  Four  or  five. 

Q.  Name  them.  A.  Mandel  Brothers,  Siegel  & Cooper,  The  Fair, 
Lytton,  of  the  Hub;  there  are  several  others,  I can’t  recall. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Glenn,  that  there  are  fifty  thousand  girls  in 
Chicago  who  receive  five  dollars  a week,  or  less?  A.  I have  been  told 
there  are  only  fifty  thousand  wage  earners  in  Chicago  earning  that  amount, 
something  around  that. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  fifty  thousand,  from  stores?  A.  No. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  your  figures?  A.  That  was  the  official 
census. 

Q.  That  there  were  only  fifty  thousand  women  earning  that  amount? 
A.  Fifty-seven  thousand,  I believe,  above  sixteen  years  old  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  you  have  stated  your  reasons,  or  rather  your  belief 
of  why  this  Committee  is  in  existence,  and  in  that  statement  you  have 
reflected  upon  the  Lieutenant  Governor.  Let  us  get  down  to  brass  tacks 
on  this  proposition.  Suppose  the  conditions  that  this  Committee  is  at 
the  present  time  trying  to  inquire  into,  and  supposing  this  Committee  has 
called  in  certain  witnesses  and  witness  after  witness  has  testified  under 
oath  that  if  it  had  not  been  for  a certain  existing  wage  condition  that 
this  particular  female  would  not  have  gone  wrong  and  that  they  were 
earning  from  three  and  a half  to  five  dollars  a week,  what  would  you  say 
were  the  reasons  and  what  would  you  say  as  to  the  remedy?  A.  I would 
like  to  see  the  man  that  led  them  wrong.  I think  the  man  that  led  the 
girl  wrong  should  be  punished.  Let  me  interject  a word.  I think  so  far 
as  the  manufacturers  are  concerned,  it  is  the  duty  of  the  manufacturers 
to  assist  you  all  they  can  in  getting  at  the  facts  so  far  as  they  bear  upon 
the  subject,  but  I don’t  think  it  is  the  duty  of  the  Committee  or  the  duty 
of  the  manufacturers  to  start  out  and  get  a whole  lot  of  information  in 
the  newspapers  and  produce  a prejudice  against  certain  industries. 

Q.  You  have  got  your  opinion  in  the  record.  I want  you  to  state 
for  the  benefit  of  the  ladies  and  gentlemen  in  this  hall  at  the  present  time, 
as  the  question  as  to  wages  has  been  asked  not  once  but  many  times, 
what  was  the  reason  for  certain  fernales  going  wrong,  and  this  Committee 
has  been  confronted  with  the  condition  existing  as  to  low  wages.  A.  I 


226 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


think  there  are  so  many  things,  probably,  that  enter  into  this  question 
that  the  wage  question  is  probably  the  least  factor.  I do  not  say  it  is 
not  a factor,  but  some  women  getting  twenty-five  dollars  a week  are  not 
any  more  satisfied  and  are  just  as  hard  up  as  the  girl  that  gets  five  dollars 
a week. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  from  what  source  would  you  say  that  a female  worker 
in  the  city  of  Chicago,  having  an  average  wage  of  say  four  to  five  dollars 
a week,  and  having  an  average  minimum  want  of  eight  dollars 
a week,  from  what  source  would  you  say  the  missing  three  dollars  would 
come?  Where  do  you  suppose  this  missing  three  or  four  dollars,  to  bring 
the  amount  up  to  the  minimum,  would  come  from?  A.  I do  not  know 
anything  about  that. 

EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  you  have  given  us  some  of  your  philosophy  on  this 
question  and  it  is  your  contention  that  low  wages  had  nothing  to  do 
with  the  question  of  vice.  Then  I want  to  ask  you  again,  do  you  not 
know  that  this  statement  here  is  a lie?  A.  I do  not. 

Q.  You  state  it  to  be  the  truth?  A.  I stand  by  my  statement. 

Q.  Will  you  reiterate  this  statement  under  oath  here?  A.  Yes, 
that  is  my  judgment  now. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  will  you  leave  off  this,  “It  is  our  judgment,”  and  will 
you  say,  “That  this  investigation  would  not  be  nearly  so  vigorous  if 
the  State  Street  merchants  would  furnish  the  Hearst  papers  with  a suf-  i 
ficient  amount  of  full-page  advertising  to  satisfy  the  greed  of  Mr.  Law-  ! 
rence.”  Will  you  make  that  statement  under  oath?  A.  I am  under  oath. 

I will  state  that  if  it  is  demonstrated  that  the  Chairman  of  this  Committee 
and  Mr.  Lawrence  w'ere  not  intimate  friends  and  that  you  were  not  in  a 
business  way  connected,  I would  withdraw  the  other  part  of  this  state- 
ment. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  record  will  show  exactly  what  w'as  said. 

Q.  You  have  no  proof  to  offer?  A.  No,  I have  no  proof  to  offer 
further  than  that. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  you  make  that  statement  as  an  individual  and  as  a 
citizen?  A.  I make  the  statement  as  the  owner  and  proprietor  of  the 
Manufacturers’  News. 

Q.  You  derive  your  income  from  the  Manufacturers’  News?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  if  I should  swear  under  oath  that  I was  the  father 
of  this  resolution  offered  in  the  Senate  without  any  advice  from  Mr. 
Hearst’s  or  any  other  newspaper  and  had  it  read  in  open  session  and  it 
was  passed  unanimously,  would  you  believe  it?  A.  I certainly  would. 

Q.  Then,  you  would  publish  something  to  the  effect  that  you  did  not 
know  of  that  fact?  A.  I wouldn’t  publish  anything  that  I believed  wasn’t 
true. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I don’t  know  Mr.  Lawrence  or  anything  about 
him.  I have  known  you  for  several  years  and  would  believe  you  whether 
under  oath  or  not. 

Q.  If  the  records  show  that  I offered  this  resolution  in  the  senate 
myself  and  had  it  passed  unanimously  and  I didn’t  know  who  was  going 
to  be  on  this  committee,  and  I did  not  have  the  advice  of  any  newspaper, 
you  would  take  that  statement  as  true?  A.  I said  an}’  statement  you  may 
make  I would  take  as  true. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I might  make  that  statement  under  oath. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I don’t  think  that  is  necessary.  Senator  Beall. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


227 


‘!i  ^ 
i' 

I EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

E 

! Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  the  manufacturers  of 
' Chicago?  A.  Fifteen  years. 

I Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  large  businesses  in  Chicago?  A.  I am 
; familiar  with  the  details  in  a general  way. 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  the  words  “watered  stock”  to  mean?  A. 
I think  the  general  acceptance  of  the  term  is  where  stock  is  issued  against 
the  good-will  of  future  business  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  In  your  opinion  is  there  any  of  that  kind  in  Sears,  Roebuck  & 
Company’s  fifty  million  dollars  of  capital  stock?  A.  Haven’t  any  idea. 
; Q.  Do  you  know  that  their  capital  stock  is  fifty  million  dollars?  A. 
I don’t  know  what  the  capital  of  the  company  is. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  was  any  of  it  watered  stock?  A.  I 
' doubt  it. 

Q.  Can  you  give  a definition  of  watered  stock?  A.  I don’t  know 
of  any  particular  definition.  I know  the  general  definition.  I haven’t  any 
‘ definition  of  my  own  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  when  it  appears  here  that  a concern  like  Sears,  Roe- 
buck & Company  have  a net  return  of  eight  million  dollars — you  have 
some  knowledge  of  the  size  of  their  plant  and  their  business — and  it  also 
appears  that  they  pay  their  woman  employes  as  low  as  five  dollars  a week, 
; don’t  you  think  public  sentiment  ought  to  be  aroused  in  a case  like  that? 

A.  I don’t  know  what  you  mean.  They  may  have  girls  starting  in  at  the 
I age  of  16  years. 

I Q.  I am  talking  about  the  pay  of  the  workers  of  a plant  with  a 
i!;  return  of  that  amount,  that  amount  of  net  income.  A.  I couldn’t  say  as 
;!  to  their  net  income. 

'■  Q.  How  much  was  it  this  year?  A.  In  1911  it  was  ten  million 
dollars.  I don’t  know  enough  about  their  business. 

i Q.  Isn’t  the  public  interested  in  this  question  of  the  girl  workers 
ij,  being  paid  their  proper  share?  A.  I think  it  is  the  duty  of  the  public 
:!  to  take  care  of  its  citizens.  I think  it  is  the  government’s  duty  to  look 
N out  for  its  citizens. 

f Q.  And  isn’t  it  their  duty  to  take  care  of  the  working  girl  of  fourteen 
to  sixteen  years  of  age  and  to  look  out  for  her?  A.  Yes,  there  are  certain 

I situations  where  certainly  something  should  be  done  to  take  care  of  them. 

II  Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  the  duty  rests  upon  the  employer  to  take  care 
of  the  employe  A.  Yes,  in  some  cases  that  should  be  done. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  the  duty  of  the  State  to  take  hold  of  the  problem  and  enact 
some  general  law  to  protect  that  class  of  people?  A.  1 think  they  ought 
to  be  protected,  but  I don’t  think  it  is  the  State’s  duty  to  make  a plant 
El  appear  to  be  fostering  prostitutes. 

Q.  No,  but  it  is  the  question  of  the  minimum  wage  that  we  are  in- 

ii  quiring  about.  A.  I have  no  doubt  the  State  has  a perfect  right  to  investi- 
I,  gate  the  minimum  wage  question  and  to  get  at  all  of  the  facts  possible. 
Ji  Q.  And  the  State  has  that  authority;  then  shouldn’t  the  State  have 
ill  full  information  as  to  the  wages  which  are  paid  and  as  to  the  income  of 
I the  business?  -A.  Certainly,  but  I can’t  give  you  the  information  you 
'!  want.  You  want  me  to  tell  you  about  Sears,  Roebuck  & Company  earn- 
I ings,  and  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  Suppose  the  Committee  were  to  establish  the  fact  that  to  maintain 
ij  a human  being  employed  in  any  capacity — a female  human  being,  if  you 
7 please — that  the  lowest  figure  at  which  that  could  be  done  was  nine  dollars 
|i  a week;  and  the  Committee  established  the  fact  that  a number  of  women 
: were  receiving  only  nine  dollars  a week — would  you  say  that  in  that  case 
i the  plant  owners  and  store-keepers  were  not  giving  their  employes  full 
i value  for  their  services?  A.  Certainly,  if  you  show  the  facts  and  prove 

! them  I could  not  go  back  of,  the  facts.  I think  you 

' Q.  I think  you  have  been  a little  bit  harsh  with  this  Committee  and  I 
I think  likely  you  have  been  using  your  pencil  too  much  and  wanting  to 

I 

1 


228 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


write  something  to  show  we  are  creating  the  impression  of  being  unjust  to 
the  employers?  A.  I don’t  think  so.  I think  the  stories  and  interviews 
given  out  create  that  impression. 

Q.  Suppose  it  is  shown  that  there  was  a shortage  in  the  amount  of 
money  paid  and  that  a large  number  of  women  were  earning  on  an  average 
from  three  to  four  and  five  dollars  a week,  would  you  say  that  this  Com- 
mittee is  still  on  the  wrong  track  in  this  investigation?  A.  No,  I would 
not  say  that.  As  I said  a while  ago,  a woman  earning  twenty-five  dollars 
might  say  she  could  not  live  well  on  it  and  a girl  might  say  she  could  live 
easily  on  ten  dollars  a week. 

Q.  You  think  some  of  them  can  live  on  ten  dollars  a week?  A.  I 
have  lived  on  five  dollars. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been,  Mr.  Glenn?  A.  A number  of  years  ago. 

Q.  Could  you  live  on  five  dollars  now?  A.  J might  if  I had  to  and 
if  I couldn’t  get  one  job  I would  get  another.  1 would  go  to  work  at 
something.  I have  lived  on  five  dollars  and  could  do  it  again. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

Q.  What  other  job  did  you  speak  of  having?  What  is  your  other 
business  besides^  running  this  magazine?  A.  I am  Secretary  of  the  Illi- 
nois Manufacturing  Association. 

Q.  And  it  is  your  business  to  look  after  legislation  for  the  manu- 
facturers? A.  It  is  part  of  my  business  to  keep  the  manufacturers  in- 
formed as  to  the  progress  of  legislation  and  what  legislation  is  proposed. 

Q.  I think  I have  seen  you  at  Springfield  in  regard  to  legislation 
for  the  manufacturers.  A.  I was  there  a great  many  years  for  the  news- 
papers before  I went  there  for  the  manufacturers. 

Q.  You  have  been  there  for  the  manufacturers,  too?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  their — you  are  their  recognized  agent?  A.  If  that  is 
what  a secretary  is,  yes. 

Q.  Well,  you  do  other  work  besides  the  secretary’s  work?  You  go 
down  there  and  look  after  legislation;  in  other  words,  you  are  what  is 
commonly  called  a lobbyist  for  them — are  you  not?  A.  I don’t  know^ 
You  might  call  me  that.  Some  people  call  me  that.  I don’t  object  to 
being  called  a lobbyist.  I don’t  resent  being  called  a lobbyist. 

Q.  You  think  you  told  the  truth  in  that  editorial?  A.  I am  in  the 
record  as  to  that. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  as  a matter  of  fact  and  of  your  own  knowledge,  j'ou 
don’t  know  of  any  member  of  this  Committee  who  has  negotiated  with  any 
Chicago  newspaper  or  used  this  Committee  in  any  way  in  negotiating  with 
any  Chicago  newspaper  to  boost  or  increase  their  advertising,  do  j'OU?  A. 
I don’t  know  that  they  have. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  any  member  of  this  Committee  has  used  his 
position  on  this  Committee  to  negotiate  with  any  newspaper  to  increase 
their  advertising?  A.  No,  but  I think  Mr.  Lawrence’s  influence  over  ;Mr. 
O’Hara  is  what  caused  this  proceeding.  If  Mr.  O’Hara  can  say  he  was 
not  connected  with  the  Chicago  American  or  Chicago  Examiner,  and  that 
he  is  not  a friend  of  Andy  Lawrence,  and  is  not  connected  with  Andy 
Lawrence  or  influenced  by  Andy  Lawrence,  I told  Senator  Beall  I would 
withdraw  the  statement  and  give  it  as  much  prominence  as  the  other. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  don’t  you  know  that  the  article  is  not  true? 
A.  I would  not  have  printed  it  if  I had  known  that,  if  I had  not  been 
informed  it  was. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Who  informed  you?  A.  I don’t  know. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Glenn,  j’^ou  read  the  newspapers,  of  course? 
A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


229 


Q.  Did  you  read  the  newspapers  prior  to  the  last  primary  campaign? 
! j A.  Yes,  sir. 

[ ■ Q.  Did  the  Chicago  Examiner  support  me  for  the  Democratic  nomina- 

I tion  for  Lieutenant-Governor?  A.  I don’t  remember;  can’t  recall. 

I I Q.  After  the  primary  and  before  the  election  did  you  ever  see  my 
I name  printed  in  the  Chicago  Examiner  or  the  Chicago  American?  A.  I 
r don’t  remember;  I can’t  say. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a matter  of  common  gossip  that  the  name  of  every  other 
candidate  on  the  Democratic  State  ticket  was  printed  in  the  Chicago 
Examiner  and  in  the  Chicago  American,  and  my  name  was  not?  A.  I 
: don’t  know. 

' Q.  You  never  heard  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  This  editorial,  then,  is  based  upon  your  imag- 
i ination?  A.  It  says  it  is  my  judgment. 

I I Q.  You  had  no  information,  however,  whatever  to  base  it  on?  A. 
I Only  common  gossip  and  the  newspapers. 

j Q.  Can  you  name  a single  man?  A.  I said  I could  not. 

Q.  Mr.  Glenn,  are  you  at  all  acquainted  with  the  members  of  the 
' present  general  assembly?  A.  I know  quite  a number  of  them. 

, Q.  How  many  do  you  know?  A.  I don’t  know. 

' Q.  Have  you  been  down  to  Springfield  this  year?  A.  No,  not  while 

' the  general  assembly  was  in  session. 

, Q.  Did  you  know  there  were  eighty-four  new  members  in  the  House? 
^ A.  I believe  I seen  some  statement  like  that  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  there  are  six  ministers  of  the  gospel  in  the 
House  of  Representatives?  A.  No,  I didn’t  know  that  there  were  that 
1 many. 

Q.  You  knew  there  were  some  ministers  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  make  a statement  here  in  which  you  ask?  “Is  it  possible 
< there  is  not  a man  in  the  Illinois  General  Assembly  who  never  has  com- 
! mitted  adultery?  If  so,  the  situation  is  somewhat  remarkable.’’  Did  you 
i have  anything  to  base  that  statement  on?  A.  Only  my  general  knowledge 
I of  men. 

' Q.  You  assume  that  the  whole  of  the  general  assembly  is  composed 
of  that  class  of  men?  A.  No. 

, Q.  Did  you  assume  there  wasn’t  a single  man  that  was  good?  A.  I 
. just  asked  the  question  whether  there  was  a single  man  that  was. 

Q.  No;  you  say  “If  so,  the  situation  is  remarkable.’’  That  is  your 
, language.  Did  you  mean  that  language?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  had  nothing  to  base  it  on?  A.  Only  my  general  knowl- 
i edge  of  men. 

Q.  You  have  a very  high  opinion  of  them?  A.  I don’t  know:  I 
have  an  opinion  of  men  as  based  on  the  state  of  the  mind. 

* THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Glenn,  were  you  ever  discharged  from  any 
position?  A.  No,  sir. 

!i  Q.  You  were  never  discharged  from  any  employment?  A.  No,  sir. 

I Q.  You  resigned  and  were  not  discharged?  A.  I resigned.  I never 

was  discharged  in  my  life.  I was  employed  on  a paper,  but  I was  never 
i discharged. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  all.  You  are  excused  for  the  present, 
j I would  like  to  be  sworn. 

! SENATOR  JUUL:  Lieutenant  Governor  O’Hara  has  requested  that 
’ he  be  sworn. 

LIEUTENANT  GOVERNOR  BARRATT  O’HARA,  having  been 
first  duly  sworn,  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Governor,  just  make  your  statement  to  the 
r Committee  and  the  stenographer  will  take  it  down,  and  it  will  go  into 
I the  record. 

Lieut.-Gov.  O’Hara  Makes  a Statement. 


230 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


LIEUT.  GOV.  O’HARA:  For  ten  years  I followed  the  occupation 
of  a newspaper  man.  Among  other  newspapers  served  by  me  were  the 
Chicago  American,  Chicago  Examiner  and  the  Chicago  Chronicle.  I 
never  saw  Mr.  Andrew  M.  Lawrence  in  any  way  outside  of  the  regular 
routine  of  my  duties  as  copy  reader  and  then  Sunday  editor  of  the  Exami- 
ner and  later  in  the  business  department.  I left  the  Hearst  service  about 
three  years  ago.  Since  that  time  I have  seen  Andrew  M.  Law’rence  twice. 
The  first  occasion  was  in  New  York  City  about  a year  ago,  when  I met 
him  in  the  lobby  of  the  Hotel  Astor  in  company  with  Judge  John  E. 
Owens.  It  was  an  accidental  meeting  and  lasted  not  to  exceed  two 
minutes.  The  second  occasion  upon  which  I saw  Mr.  Lawrence  since 
my  leaving  the  Hearst  service  was  about  a month  ago  at  the  Hotel 
LaSalle,  Chicago,  when  Mr.  Lawrence  was  on  his  way  to  a banquet  of 
the  California  Society.  It  was  an  accidental  meeting.  There  were  present 
at  this  meeting  Mr.  Nelson  Lampert  and  Senator  Forst.  The  conversa- 
tion lasted  for  perhaps  five  minutes  with  Mr.  Lawrence,  and  Senator 
Forst  doing  most  of  the  talking.  Mr.  Lawrence  and  I never  had  any 
trouble  of  a serious  nature,  but  we  disagreed  on  matters  that  seemed  vital 
to  me,  and  it  is  a common  report  among  newspaper  men  that  the  Hearst 
papers  refrained  from  using  the  name  of  Barratt  O’Hara  whenever  pos- 
sible. When  I was  a candidate  for  the  Democratic  nomination  for  Lieu- 
tenant Governor,  I received  no  support  from  Mr.  Lawrence,  or  either  of 
his  publications,  both  of  these  publications  supporting  another  candidate. 
After  my  nomination,  with  one  exception,  I do  not  believe  either  the 
American  or  the  Examiner  used  my  name,  although  the  names  of  the 
other  Democratic  candidates  w^ere  used.  I never  received  orders  from 
any  man  in  my  life;  God  helping  me,  I never  wdll: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Governor,  now- that  you  have  made  that  state- 
ment, will  you  state  your  name?  A.  Barratt  O’Hara. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Lieutenant  Governor  of  Illinois. 

Q.  And  you  are  the  Chairman  of  this  Senate  Vice  Committee?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I will  wind  up  your  statement,  Mr.  O’Hara,  by  asking  you  if  you 
have  been  directly  or  indirectly  connected,  or  attempted  to  connect  your- 
self with  any  Chicaeo  newspaper  in  order  to  use  this  Committee  or  your 
position  with  this  Committee  to  boost  the  advertising  of  any  newspaper? 
A.  I have  no  connection  with  any  Chicago  newspaper  of  any  sort,  and 
if  any  advertising  solicitor  or  advertising  manager  attempts  _ to  get 
advertising  for  his  publication  on  the  streneth  of  the  work  of  this  Com- 
mittee, I will  go  to  the  limit  in  prosecuting  him. 

Q.  Mr.  O’Hara,  do  you  know  of  anj’-  member  of  this  Committee,  _ or 
any  member  in  the  present  General  Assembly,  who  has  used  his  position 
for  any  mercenary  purpose  or  for  the  purpose  of  boosting  the  advertising 
among  newspapers?  A.  I do  not. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Mr.  O’Hara,  you  have  read  the  editorial  in 
the  Manufacturers’  News?  A.  T have. 

Q.  Is  that  true  or  false?  A.  Unqualifiedly  false. 

L W ’s  Testimony. 

L W , called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn 

by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Give  your  name?  A.  L W . 

Q.  Will  you  tell  this  Committee  if  you  were  arrested  some  time  ago? 
A.  I was  arrested  on  last  Saturday. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  why  and  where  j^ou  were  arrested? 
Tell  us  in  your  own  way.  A.  I was  arrested  on  State  and  Van  Buren 
streets.  I don’t  know  much  about  Chicago. 

O.  What  were  vou  arrested  for?  A.  I was  arrested  because  of  a 
“guy.” 

Q.  On  account  of  a “guy,”  on  account  of  a fellow?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  had  that  man  done  for  you?  A.  This  man  came  from 
Oregon  City,  Illinois;  he  came  from  the  same  town  I did.  He  brought 
me  here. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


231 


I 


Q.  What  did  he  bring  you  here  for?  A,  He  wanted  me  to  hustle 
I and  bring  $20.00  in  a night. 

Q.  For  bringing  you  here?  A.  For  bringing  me  here  and  making 
me  hustle. 

Q.  Were  there  some  other  men,  or  this  same  man?  A.  No,  just  the 

one. 

Q.  When  you  were  brought  from  Oregon,  Illinois,  to  Chicago,  how 
, old  were  you?  A.  I am  twenty-five  years  old. 

Q.  Were  you  placed  in  any  position  here,  or  any  house?  A.  No, 
M that  is  all;  he  brought  me  here. 

Q.  To  earn  money  for  him?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  earn  money  for  him?  A.  Just  one  night, 
when  he  beat  me  up  and  I wouldn’t  go  any  more. 

Q.  What  were  you  employed  at  in  Oregon,  Illinois?  A.  I was  work- 
ing out. 

Q.  In  families?  A.  In  families;  yes. 

Mandel  Brothers  Announce  Wage  Increase. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  witness  is  excused.  The  Committee  has 
received  a letter  from  Edwin  F.  Mandel,  announcing  that  as  a result  of 
i the  hearings  of  the  Committee,  the  minimum  wage  at  Mandel  Brothers 
has  been  raised.  The  Secretary  will  read  the  letter. 

I SENATOR  JUUL;  The  letter  is  as  follows: 

^ MANDEL  BROTHERS,  Chicago,  March  8,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara,  care  Hotel  LaSalle,  City: 

Dear  Sir — As  per  request,  herewith  find  blank  application  such 
as  is  used  and  must  be  filled  out  by  persons  seeking  employment  with 
i our  firm. 

1 Your  suggestion  to  employ  a competent  investigator  to  ascertain 

home  conditions  of  women  will  be  put  in  operation  at  once, 
j We  have  advanced  salaries  of  girls  of  fourteen  years  of  age  to 
. ■ $4.00  per  week,  and  this  will  be  the  minimum  salary  paid  to  girls  of 
It  that  age  hereafter,  and  if  their  educational  qualifications  are  of  such 
I ^ a nature  as  to  warrant  paying  them  more  to  start  with,  we  will  do  so. 

I _ On  behalf  of  Mandel  Brothers,  I desire  to  thank  you  and  the 
I various  honorable  members  of  your  Committee  for  the  courteous 
: treatment  received. 

Yours  very  truly, 

MANDEL  BROTHERS, 
EDWIN  F.  MANDEL,  President. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  will  now  take  an  adjournment  until  Mon- 
I;  day  at  10  o’clock. 

TJiereupon  the  Commission  adjourned  to  Monday,  March  10, 
1913,  at  10  o’clock  A.  M. 


! 

U 

C 


SESSION  VII 


Mr.  James  Simpson  resumes  his  testimony  and  states  that  any 

If  increase  of  wages  might  compel  higher  prices  for  merchandise  and 
? thus  increase  the  cost  of  living  in  general.  Questioned  concerning 
[ insinuations  made  in  Manufacturers’  News  editorial,  Mr.  Simpson 
testifies  that  “Neither  directly  nor  indirectly,  nor  in  any  shape, 

^ manner  or  form,  have  we  been  approached  on  advertising  or  in 
any  other  respect  through  this  Committee  or  any  member  thereof,” 
and  that  he  has  heard  no  other  business  man  say  he  had  been 
approached  in  any  way  in  that  manner.  Mr.  George  Lytton  testi- 
fies that  he  considers  his  firm  morally  responsible  for  its  em- 
ployes’ welfare,  and  states  his  opinion  that  the  minimum  wage 
should  probably  be  fixed  at  $13.00.  Joseph  Basch  favors  a minimum 
wage  law  if  provision  is  made  for  apprentices,  and  states  that  if 
a proper  minimum  wage  were  established  it  would  not,  in  his 
judgment,  interfere  with  profits  at  all,  and  his  firm  would  be  glad 
to  accept  it  in  a right  spirit. 

Chicago,  March  10,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 

THE  ILLINOIS  SENATE  VICE  COMMITTEE  reconvened  at 
10  o’clock  A.  M.,  today,  Monday,  March  10,  A.  D.  1913,  at  the  Hotel 
La  Salle,  Chicago,  111. 

Members  Present: 

Lieutenant-Governor  Barratt  O’Hara,  Chairman. 

Senator  Neils  Juul, 

Senator  Edmond  Beall. 

Senator  F.  Jeff  Tossey. 

Owing  to  the  illness  of  Senator  D.  T.  Woodard,  he  was  not  in  at- 
tendance. 

Whereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

Mr.  James  Simpson’s  Testimony  Resumed. 

JAMES  SIMPSON,  recalled  as  a witness,  having  been  heretofore  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Simpson,  you  have  been  examined  hereto- 
fore? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I desire  to  ask  you  a few  questions  that  have  already  been  asked 
of  you.  What  were  the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  during  the 
last  fiscal  year?  Before  answering  that,  I will  state  that  the  Committee 
feels  that  this  is  a matter  of  interest  and  importance.  If  girls  are  getting 
small  wages  naturally  the  public  is  interested  and  it  is  necessary  for  the 
Committee  to  reach  a point  where  it  can  lay  a foundation  for  establishing 
that  fact  and  also  to  be  fair  with  the  employer  as  well  as  with  the  employe. 

THE  WITNESS:  Marshall  Field  & Company  are  well  able  to  afford 
to  pay  and  will  pay  any  minimum  scale  of  wages  that  might  be  established 
either  by  the  State  of  Illinois  or  by  the  United  States.  We  would  much 
prefer  not  to  make  the  exact  figures  of  our  profits  public  and  I hope  to  avoid 
answering  that  question  when  I say  that  we  can  afford  to  and  will  pay  any 
minimum  scale  of  wages  which  the  State  of  Illinois  or  the  United  States 


233 


234  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


establishes.  Marshall  Field  & Company’s  business  is  run  on  a profitable 
basis  and  you  need  have  no  hesitation  as  to  Marshall  Field  & Company 
acting  on  this  question  improperly. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  ask  Mr.  Simpson  whether  Marshall  Field 
& Company  would  be  willing  to  pay  any  minimum  wage  that  might  be 
established  in  Illinois  according  to  the  profits  of  the  business  they  do?  A. 
I say  they  are  able  to.  I would  prefer  to  consult  with  other  members  of 
the  firm. 

Q.  You  say  you  would  like  to  have  a consultation  with  other  members 
of  your  firm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Then,  you  would  say,  that  in  the  event  of  a mini- 
mum wage  law  being  enacted  in  Illinois,  that  that  law  would  not  be  con- 
tested by  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  To  my  knowledge  Marshall 
Field  & Company  have  never  contested  any  legislation  that  might  be  in 
process  of  enactment  at  Springfield.  It  has  not  been  their  policy  to  do 
so,  but  I would  not  wish  to  tie  their  hands  as  to  anything  regarding  the 
law.  We  would  be  glad  to  aid  in  any  way  we  can,  but  my  impression  is 
that  they  would  not  contest  such  a law  and  my  belief  is  they  would  not 
do  so. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  would  be  a fair  minimum  wage  for  woman 
workers?  A.  As  I have  already  stated.  Governor,  in  my  testimony,  that 
a high  minimum  wage  established  in  the  State  of  Illinois  would  work  a 
detriment  to  the  state.  I think  such  a law  should  be  national,  putting 
everybody  on  the  same  basis. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  think  that  there  should  not  be  a minimum 
law  as  to  wages?  A.  I don’t  feel  myself  competent  to  answer  that  ques- 
tion, Senator.  I think  that  that  should  only  be  arrived  at  after  the  most 
exhaustive  investigation  such  as  you  are  now  making.  I have  already  tes- 
tified, I think,  on  that  subject.  There  are  young  girls  and  some  women 
who  might  live  on  $8.00  a week  or  perhaps  $9.00. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  have  stated  that  Marshall  Field  & Company 
can  well  afford  to  pay  the  wage  specified  in  any  minimum  wage  law.  klar- 
shall  Field  & Company,  you  say,  could  well  afford  to  pay  a minimum  scale 
for  women  of  $12.00  a week?  A.  If  that  scale  were  established,  yes.  May 
1 elaborate  on  that? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Certainly.  A.  If  it  were  found  that  the  profits 
of  any  retail  merchandise  business  were  sufficient  to  meet  a minimum  wage 
scale,  the  result  would  be  that  an  increased  profit  would  be  required  on 
the  merchandise  to  meet  the  increased  expenses;  so  that  in  my  judgment 
if  a retail  business  such  as  ours,  or  such  as  the  State  street  department 
stores,  is  such  that  they  can  well  afford  to  comply  with  any  law  which  the 
state  sees  fit  to  pass,  then  I should  think  it  would  be  well. 

Q.  Then,  the  question  of  increasing  the  wages  of  women  workers 
would  be  one  for  the  public,  rather  than  for  the  corporation?  A.  If  it  be 
a question  of  profits  it  would  be  a question  for  the  corporation. 

Q.  Then,  in  your  opinion,  the  enactment  of  a minimum  wage  law 
would  increase  the  present  cost  of  living?  A.  That  is  quite  possible. 

Q.  It  would  affect  the  high  cost  of  living  more  than  it  would  affect 
the  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  I am  not  quite  clear  as  to 
how  to  answer  that  question.  I don’t  believe  I am  competent  to  answer  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I think,  myself,  the  question  is  a little  bit  a 
matter  of  judgment. 

THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Simpson,  what  we  are  trying  to  solve  is  this. 
There  is  an  unrest  among  our  people  in  regard  to  the  wage  question  and 
the  high  cost'  of  living.  This  Committee  is  tr3-ing  to  arrive  at  a solution 
of  the  problem  and  that  is  why  we  would  like  to  know  what  the  profits 
are  in  round  figures,  the  annual  profits  of  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A. 
I beg  that  you  will  excuse  me.  Governor,  from  giving  j-ou  that  informa- 
tion. I do  want  to  say  this,  that  our  books  and  papers  and  memoranda  that 
apply  to  wages  or  working  conditions,  or  anything  surrounding  the  con- 
dition of  the  employment  of  girls  or  women  in  our  store,  are  open  to  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


235 


Committee.  I would  much  prefer  to  be  excused  from  answering  that.  Any 
one  of  you  gentlemen  of  the  Committee  may  come  into  our  store  and  go 
through  it.and  see  the  conditions  under  which  the  people  work  and  if  they 
can  give  us  any  suggestion  we  shall  be  glad  to  have  them. 

Q.  One  other  question:  Has  any  newspaper  representative  or  any 
representative  of  any  other  publication  tried  to  get  advertising  from  your 
firm  on  the  strength  of  the  work  of  this  Committee?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Has  any  member  of  this  Committee  interceded 
with  your  firm  in  order  to  secure  advertising  from  your  firm?  A.  They 
have  not. 

Q.  Has  any  one  directly  or  indirectly  been  using  youb  firm  or  asking 
your  firm  for  advertising  on  account  of  the  work  of  this  Committee?  A. 
They  have  not. 

Q.  You  have  not  been  approached  by  any  member  of  this  Committee? 
A.  By  none. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Did  any  person  representing  this  Committee  ap- 
proach you  or  your  firm  on  that  subject?  A.  Neither  directly  or  indirectly 
or  in  any  manner,  shape  or  form  have  we  been  approached  on  advertising 
or  in  any  other  respect  through  this  Committee  or  any  member  thereof. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  any  business  man  say  he  had  been  approached  in 
any  way  in  that  manner?  A.  I have  not. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I have  a question  to  ask.  I would  like  to  ask 
you  what  you  would  think  if  the  General  Assembly  should  pass  a law 
making  the  scale  of  wages  $2.00  a day,  minimum  scale,  would  you  think 
that  would  be  a proper  scale?  A.  I think,  as  I have  stated  before,  that 
it  would  drive  a lot  of  business  out  of  the  State  of  Illinois.  It  would  be 
absolutely  a prohibitive  provision. 

Q.  There  should  be  a federal  law,  you  mean?  A.  A federal  law.  As 
I said  before,  I hope  it  would  begin  in  Washington. 

Q.  Do  you  work  your  female  employes  overtime  at  Marshall  Field’s? 
A.  They  might  stay  a half  an  hour  or  an  hour  cleaning  up  the  stock  after 
the  day’s  work  is  done. 

Q.  Your  usual  hours  are  up  to  six  o’clock  in  the  evening?  A.  Our 
hours  for  girls  are  eight  hours  a day. 

Q.  You  do  not  usually  keep  the  store  open  at  Christmas  time  any 
later?  A.  Instead  of  closing  at  half-past  five  we  close  at  six  o’clock  dur- 
ing the  month  of  December. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Mr.  Simpson,  are  the  profits  of  your  concern 
great  enough  so  that  you  could  afford  to  pay  the  $2.00  a day  without  in- 
creasing the  cost  of  the  goods  to  the  consumer?  A.  I might  answer  that 
question  by  asking  you  another.  If  we  paid  the  girls  a minimum  wage  of 
$2.00  a day,  W’hat  would  we  have  to  do  with  the  man  with  a family?  What 
would  we  have  to  pay  the  man  with  the  family  if  we  paid  the  girl  that  $2.00 
a day? 

Q.  If  the  minimum  wage,  for  instance,  was  $2.00  a day,  would  you 
have  to  increase  the  cost  of  your  goods  to  the  consumer  in  order  to  pay 
that  and  then  pay  a fair  dividend  on  your  stock?  Are  your  profits  now 
great  enough  to  pay  that  without  increasing  the  cost  of  the  goods?  A.  We 
would  not  necessarily  have  to  increase  the  cost  of  the  goods. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  If  you  would  not  have  to  increase  the  price  of 
your  goods,  and  if  the  State  of  Illinois  had  the  same  minimum  wage  law, 
then  why  should  there  be  a federal  law?  A.  We  might  be  able  to  do  it 
and  the  manufacturer  might  not  be  able  to  do  it. 

Q.  We  haven’t  got  that  far  along.  We  are  talking  now  of  the  busi- 
ness in  your  line  on  State  street.  Suppose  we  have  a law  of  that  kind  in 
this  state?  A.  I have  stated  that  we  could  do  it. 

Q.  You  wouldn’t  insist  on  a federal  law,  then?  A.  We  are  not  in  a 
position  to  insist  on  anything.  I am  giving  my  best  judgment.  I know 
you  are  trying  zealously  to  get  at  the  facts  and  I am  trying  to  give  them 
to  you. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I understand  your  answer  to  that  question  to  be 


236  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


that  you  could  afford  to  pay  the  additional  increase  and  could  pay  $12.00  a 
week  without  increasing  the  price  of  your  goods?  A.  That  might  be  so. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  a good  point. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Yes,  that  was  a very  good  question,  Senator  Tos- 
sey,  I thought.  Do  any  members  of  the  General  Assembly  desire  to  ask 
the  witness  any  question? 

(No  response.) 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Then,  Mr.  Simpson,  you  will  be  excused,  for  the 
present. 

THE  WITNESS:  I shall  be  subject  to  your  call  and  I thank  you  gen- 
tlemen for  your  courtesy. 


Mr.  George  Lytton’s  Testimony. 

GEORGE  LYTTON,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  duly  sworn  by 
Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  your  name?  A.  George  Lytton. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Merchant. 

Q.  With  what  company  or  corporation  are  you  connected?  A.  The 
Hub. 

Q.  What  is  your  official  connection  with  it?  A.  I am  vice-president 
and  treasurer. 


Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  corporation?  A.  The  Hub;  Henry  C. 
Lytton  & Sons.  

Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  employes  of  your  establish- 
ment? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  the  authority,  whether  you  exercise  it  or  not,  both  to 
employ  and  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Lytton,  you  have  been  called  here  to  tell  us  something  about 
the  system  that  the  Committee  has  been  informed  you  have  in  vogue  in 
your  place  of  business.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  how  that  system  oper- 
ates? A.  I would  be  very  glad  to  do  so.  In  our  business  we  have  a sj's- 
tem  on  the  commission  basis.  There  is  a certain  amount  of  money  given 
to  our  employes  every  year  which  is  given  entirely  and  solely  as  a present 
from  the  heads  of  the  house  or  the  corporation  to  our  employes. 

Q.  How  much  does  that  amount  to  annually?  A.  I would  prefer  not 
to  state  that  just  now,  because  I believe  I will  show  the  Committee  that 
the  question  of  the  amount  has  absolutely  nothing  to  do  with  our  payment 
of  salaries.  I will  state  that  this  amount  is  given  them  as  a present  from 
the  firm  and  it  has  nothing  to  do  with  their  salaries.  We  do  this  of  our 
own  volition. 


SENATOR  JUUL:  If  you  found  there  had  been  no  profit  during  the 
year  would  you  still  give  that?  A.  I don’t  believe  there  is  anj'  doubt  but 
what  we  would.  That  being  the  case,  so  to  speak,  it  is  entireh'  divorced 
from  our  business  policy. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  In  this  connection  what  proportion  of  your  net 
profit  do  you  give  to  employes,  or  did  you  give  during  the  last  fiscal  year? 
A.  I would  prefer  not  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  As  a present,  then?  A.  I would  prefer  not  to  ans\ver  that  ques- 
tion. I don’t  object  to  giving  you  the  sj'^stem  in  the  way  it  is  worked  out 
and  giving  you  some  figures,  but  as  to  giving  you  the  percentage  that  it 
bears  to  our  net  profits,  I would  prefer  not  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  You  employ  women?  A.  Yes,  we  have  175  women. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  any  woman  in  your  employ?  A. 
The  lowest  wage  paid  any  woman  or  girl  in  our  employ  is  $6.50  a week. 

Q.  The  lowest  amount?  A.  That  is  absolutely  the  lowest  amount  we 
pay  any  employe. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  many  have  you  at  the  lowest  amount?  A. 
There  are  fifty-four  girls  receiving  $6.50  a week. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  group?  A.  The  next  group  receive  $7.00  a week. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  237 

Q.  How  many  are  in  that  group?  A.  There  are  about  fifty.  I might 
say  something  to  the  Committee  if  you  desire. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  would  be  glad  to  hear  it. 

THE  WITNESS:  The  young  ladies  that  receive  a salary  of  $6.50  a 
week  are  what  we  call  inspectors,  or  young  women  who  wrap  up  the  mer- 
chandise. We  start  them  on  $6.S0  a week  and  if  they  are  satisfactory,  after 
they  have  been  with  us  three  months,  we  raise  them  to  $7.00  a week,  so 
there  is  a constant  change,  of  course.  They  are  then  advanced  from  the 
position  of  wrapper  or  inspector  into  positions  where  they  receive  a salary 
of  $7.00. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  the  average  age  of  the  girl  making  $6.50 
a week?  A.  Sixteen  years  old. 

Q.  Sixteen  years  is  the  average  age?  A.  Yes.  I haven’t  figured  that 
out.  Every  statement  I am  making  is  under  oath. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  To  the  best  of  your  knowledge? 

THE  WITNESS:  Exactly. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  And  in  addition  to  the  $6.50  paid  the  girls  who 
receive  the  lowest  wage  in  your  employ  you  give  an  annual  gift?  A.  Yes, 
we  give  an  annual  present  to  the  young  lady  who  has  been  with  us  one  year 
or  more. 

Q.  Might  I ask  what  the  amount  of  that  gift  was  last  year  to  the  girl 
making  $6.50  a week?  A.  I would  say  to  the  girl  making  $6.50  a week,  she 
would  get  two  per  cent  of  her  yearly  salary.  You  can  figure  that  up.  I 
haven’t  figured  it  myself. 

Q.  Do  you  come  in  competition  with  any  establishment  wherein  the 
minimum  wage  is  lower  than  your  minimum  wage?  A.  Most  assuredly. 

Q.  Do  you  have  to  sell  your  goods  a little  higher  in  order  to  pay  the 
higher  salaries  to  your  workers?  A.  No;  in  fact  we  sell  our  mechandise 
closer  than  many  merchants.  We  are  pretty  well  convinced  of  that  fact. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  it  is  good  business  policy  or  bad  business  policy  to 
pay  a higher  minimum  wage  to  women  than  your  competitors  pay?  A.  I 
don’t  believe  it  is  a bad  business  policy  at  all.  I would  rather  say  it  is 
good  business  policy,  because  we  get  better  women  and  we  get  better  work. 

Q.  Mr.  Lytton,  what  were  the  net  profits  of  your  business  last  year? 
A.  I must  refuse  to  answer  that  question  to  the  Committee.  Our  cor- 
poration is  a close  corporation.  The  three  officers  are  my  father,  my 
brother  and  myself.  My  father  is  out  of  the  city  and  I would  not  feel  it 
would  be  correct  for  me  to  answer  that  until  I had  consulted  with  him. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  suggest.  Governor,  before  we  ask  any- 
thing of  these  gentlemen  on  the  question  of  earnings,  that  we  defer  as  far 
as  possible  the  question  of  earnings  for  the  present  and  if  we  determine 
the  question  of  earnings  is  necessary  for  this  hearing,  then  we  could  call 
these  gentlemen  in  and  settle  that  at  one  hearing.  Then  the  question  of 
earnings  may  be  gone  into. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I feel.  Senator,  that  is  a very  vital  matter,  the 
matter  of  profits;  and  until  we  change  our  attitude,  that  question  should 
be  settled.  So  we  will  not  go  into  that  at  this  time.  Have  you  any  other 
questions  to  ask.  Senator  Juul? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  stated  that  you  had  girls  that  received  from 
$6.50  to  $7.00  per  week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Lytton,  what  proportion  would  you  say  that  a parent  or 
guardian  or  some  charitable  institution,  or  any  other  body  or  institution, 
should  supply  in  order  to  make  up  the  balance  for  the  employes  receiving 
the  salary  mentioned  by  you  in  order  that  she  might  live?  A.  I do  not 
think  that  I could  answer  that  question  as  you  put  it. 

Q.  Suppose  a young  woman  or  girl  living  on  her  own  resources  was 
getting  $8.00  or  $9.00  a week.  And  it  cost  her  more  than  that  to  live. 
Where  do  you  think  the  balance  would  come  from  to  make  up  that  differ- 


.238 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


ence?  A.  To  answer  that  question  I would  like  to  state  this.  Our  girls 
receive  that  amount  and  they  are  young  girls,  who  are  sixteen  years  of  age, 
who  are  living  at  home  and  who  contribute  their  salaries  to  the  support 
of  the  family.  If  that  can  be  proven,  I would  be  glad  to  have  any  of  the 
young  ladies  brought  in  and  have  them  explain  to  the  Committee  their  con- 
dition. There  are  some  w'ho  get  $8.00  a week. 

Q.  You  mean  they  can  live  on  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  I w'ant  to  get  at  is,  who  contributes  the  balance  to  the  girls’ 
support?  A.  The  families. 

Q.  Then,  don’t  you  consider  it  would  be  incumbent  upon  the  em- 
ployers doing  business  in  this  great  City  of  Chicago,  to  contribute  to  that 
end?  A.  I don’t  think  there  is  any  question  of  that. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  there  is  any  question  about  the  moral  respon- 
sibility? A.  None  at  all. 

Q.  But  suppose  the  fact  remains  that  she  is  devoting  her  time  to  your 
business.  Do  you  know  any  one  of  the  104  cases  where  the  conditions  are 
such  that  the  parent  or  guardian  is  in  a physical  or  financial  condition  as 
not  to  be  able  to  supply  that  deficit  which  you  fail  to  supply?  A.  We  cer- 
tainly have  not  investigated  the  condition  of  every  individual. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know?  A.  No. 

Q.  Then,  you  do  not  know  but  that  the  lack  of  that  $1.50  or  that  $2.00 
a day  is  necessary  to  make  the  girl  presentable  in  your  business  on  Mon- 
day morning?  A.  That  I do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  as  a citizen  of  Illinois  that  a moral  or  legal  re- 
sponsibility rests  upon  you  to  supply  that  girl  with  enough  money  so  that 
she  may  live  respectably  and  keep  herself  so  that  she  may  be  presentable 
at  your  establishment?  A.  I don’t  know  about  the  legal  responsibility. 
There  is  no  question  about  the  moral  responsibility.  The  entire  respon- 
sibility rests  upon  the  heads  of  the  organization. 

Q.  Do  you  think  as  an  employer  of  labor  in  Illinois  you  would  resist 
any  legislation  which  was  passed  for  the  purpose  of  securing  to  emploA'es, 
particularly  female  employes,  a minimum  w'age  w^hich  would  at  least  make 
them  immune  from  evil  ways  and  keep  them  from  destruction?  A.  I have 
been  studying  this  question  for  over  ten  years  and  it  is  an  absolute  impos- 
sibility for  me  or  anybody  else  to  answer  this  question  concreteljn 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you  another  question.  What  do  you  consider  a young 
women  employed  in  your  business  should  earn  so  as  to  make  herself  pre- 
sentable to  come  to  your  store  on  klonday  morning  and  to  live  decently? 
A.  I have  not  figured  that  out.  That  question  has  been  figured  by  inves- 
tigators. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  each  one  of  those  104  girls  can  be  made  pre- 
sentable for  appearing  at  your  store  on  Monday  morning  and  to  keep  them- 
selves in  fairly  comfortable  circumstances?  A.  My  answer  to  that  would 
be  my  opinion  regardless  of  w'hat  the  conditions  might  be,  but  I think  that 
$8.00  should  be  a minimum  wage. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  can  be  done  for  $8.00  a week?  A.  I do,  yes. 

Q.  Could  you  make  a statement  as  to  that  and  give  us  an  idea  after 
consultation  with  a dozen  girls  in  your  establishment?  A.  I believe  so. 

Q.  Will  you  furnish  this  Committee  with  such  a list  as  j'ou  believe 
to  be  a true  list  after  consultation  with  a number  of  young  women?  A. 
Certainly. 

Q.  Can  you  do  that  within  a week  or  so?  A.  In  a dajn 

Q.  Do  you  work  these  girls  overtime  at  Christmas?  A.  M e do,  yes. 

Q.  What  time  in  the  fall  do  you  start  working  them  overtime?  A.  I 
would  say  on  the  average  about  five  or  six  days  before  Christmas. 

Q.  That  is  all?  A.  I believe  that  is  all. 

Q.  You  do  not  start  a month  before?  A.  Oh!  my,  no. 

Q.  You  pay  them  for  that?  A.  I wouldn’t  like  to  say.  I know  we 
give  them  supper  monejn  I don’t  believe  we  pay  them  overtime. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


239 


Q.  We  know  you  give  them  supper  money,  but  we  want  to  know  if 
you  pay  them  anything  else?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  them  for  any  medical  service  necessary  in  the 
store?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  The  girls  receiving  $6.50  a week,  you  pay  them 
a bonus,  do  you?  A.  No,  there  is  no  bonus.  It  is  a present;  we  donate  it. 


' Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  wage  you  pay?  A.  $8.00,  $9.00,  $10.00, 

! $11.00  and  $12.00. 

Q.  What  per  cent  do  you  give  them?  A.  I will  state  to  the  Com- 
I mittee,  that  the  way  we  arrive  at  this  present  we  give  our  employes  is,  we 
; commence  with  two  per  cent  on  their  yearly  salary  and  it  works  auto- 
f matically. 

Q.  That  is  the  way  you  do  it?  A.  Yes.  They  receive  from  one-half 
t to  one  per  cent.  Some  receive  higher  and  it  drops  down  and  that  is  in- 
::  creased  year  by  year.  We  have  a young  woman  who  has  been  employed 
' by  us,  who  is  now  a cashier  and  receives  a salary  of  $25.00  a week.  She 
t has  been  with  us  quite  a time.  She  received  a present  last  year  of  $500. 
!i  When  an  employe  is  getting  $15  a week  and  becomes  incapacitated  for  work 
l!  she  is  put  on  the  pension  list  and  receives  enough  to  take  care  of  her.  We 
I,  have  had  two  on  that  pension  list.  One  of  them  has  recently  died. 

^ SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  say  to  you,  Mr.  Lytton,  that  your  or- 
! ganization  shows  up  more  favorably  than  a number  of  other  concerns. 

' THE  WITNESS:  I am  glad  to  hear  it. 

I SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Mr.  Lytton,  could  you  afford  to  give  your  fe- 
; male  employes  $2.00  a day,  or  $12.00  a week,  without  raising  the  price  of 
your  goods  to  the  consumers?  A.  In  the  way  you  have  stated  that  ques- 
tion— to  my  mind  that  question  is  of  such  a high  scope  and  of  such  im- 
mensity I don’t  think  it  is  possible  to  answer  it  intelligently.  I assume  that 
the  Committee  is  entirely  fair  and  I would  be  glad  to  give  any  information 
I can. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  The  scope  isn’t  so  great.  Take  the  girl  earning 
on  an  average  $5.00  a week.  Suppose  you  add  $100,000  annually  to  those 
salaries,  would  it  affect  your  business  in  the  selling  of  your  goods?  A.  We 
have  some  women  getting  $12.00  a week,  some  $15.00  and  some  $25.00. 

Q.  Suppose  the  average  girl  would  be  brought  up  to  $12.00  a week 
^and  it  would  take  ah  additional  $40,000  to  make  up  the  difference?  A.  I 
I 'couldn’t  state  as  to  that. 

' Q.  What  I am  working  at  is,  say  you  deduct  $250,000  in  some  of  the 
great  businesses  in  this  great  city  and  make  up  the  difference  in  the  earn- 
; ings  of  the  girls  getting  $7.00  and  $8.00  a week.  A.  I haven’t  figured  that. 
There  are  investigators  who  have  figured  those  things. 

Q.  Take  the  girls  at  $5.00  a week  and  take  the  number  of  weeks,  fifty- 
two  weeks  in  the  year.  Suppose  you  take  a sufficient  amount  to  make  up 
I the  difference  so  as  to  make  an  increased  minimum  wage,  do  you  think  that 
could  be  done  so  that  the  wage  might  be  raised  and  yet  the  business  not 
t be  affected?  A.  There  is  no  question  but  that  could  be  done.  We  have 
girls  working  at  salaries  of  $12.00  a week  and  we  have  some  at  $20.00. 

■ 1 Q-  What  this  Committee  contends  is  that  no  one  should  work  for 
ij  , anybody,  no  servant  should  have  a master  in  Illinois  except  that  he  or  she 
1;  should  be  able  to  make  enough  to  feed  and  clothe  himself  and  sufficient  to 
" buy  shoes  and  take  care  of  themselves?  A.  Aboslutely. 

J THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Lytton,  what  is  your  opinion  as  to  the  mini- 
'■  mum  wage?  A.  The  minimum? 

Q.  Yes,  the  minimum  wage?  A.  Probably  about  $13.00. 

...  SENATOR  JUUL:  What  do  you  know  about  the  cost  of  living,  board 
ij  and  room?  Do  you  think  that  $3.50  or -,$4.00  is  a low  price?  A.  It  isn’t 
|!  enough.  There  are  homes  instituted  where  some  of  these  girls  and  women 
can  live  very  comfortably  at  a very  low  rate. 

,i  SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  think  if  the  State  Legislature  should 
^ pass  a law  making  $2.00  a day  a minimum  wage  for  female  help  it  would 


240  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


be  all  right?  A.  I believe  it  would  if  the  other  states  should  pass  the 
same  law.  Of  course,  that  is  an  open  question. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  There  seems  to  be  a feeling  that  some  of  our  I 
big  employers  go  outside  of  the  scope  of  their  general  business  and  do 
more  than  to  protect  their  employes.  Do  you  consider  that  the  money 
you  pay  yearly  to  the  people  working  for  you  is  a substitute  for  the  de- 
ficiency in  the  wages?  A.  I feel  that  we  have  done  what  we  should  have 
done  and  we  have  followed  this  policy  for  some  years. 

Q.  And  you  consider  the  welfare  of  your  employes  is  a moral  respon- 
sibility? A.  Absolutely. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Lytton.  You  are  excused  until 
further  notice. 

Mr.  Joseph  Basch’s  Testimony. 

JOSEPH  BASCH,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Joseph  Basch. 

Q.  Are  you  connected  with  any  firm  or  corporation?  A.  I am  with 
Siegel,  Cooper  & Company. 

Q.  They  are  incorporated  under  the  laws  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  employ  girls  and  women?  A.  We  do. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ?  A.  We  employ  about  1,250. 

Q.  Women  and  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  the  grouping  of  the  girls,  starting  with 
the  lowest  paid  girl?  A.  We  have  a classification,  or  groups. 

Q.  Would  you  call  the  lowest  Class  1 or  A?  A.  The  groups  are 
classified  as  learners,  beginners  and  apprentices. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  employed  in  the  first  group?  A.  We  have 
employed  in  the  first  group  three  learners  at  $3.50  a week. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  group?  A.  We  have  ten  apprentices  earning 
between  $4.00  and  $4.50.  j 

Q.  Can  you  tell  those  that  get  $4.00  from  those  that  get  $4.50?  A.  i 
They  are  about  equally  divided.  | 

Q.  Then,  there  are  five  at  $4.00  and  five  at  $4.50;  is  that  correct?  ' 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  group?  A.  We  have  fifty-five  at  $5.00. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  the  next  group,  Mr.  Basch?  A.  The 
next  group  is  between  $6.00  and  $29.00. 

Q.  How  many  are  in  that  group?  A.  If  )'ou  deduct  the  sixty-eight 
women  from  the  1,250  you  will  get  the  average. 

Q.  Then  you  have  about  1,200  girls  in  round  numbers  that  receive 
what?  A.  An  average  of  $8.56. 

Q.  There  may  be  girls  getting  $18.00  and  some  $12.00,  and  there  may 
be  some  getting  $6.00  and  some  $20.00.  Can  you  give  us  the  figures  for 
that  group?  A.  I haven’t  got  the  figures  exactly. 

Q.  Have  you  100  girls  in  the  group  of  1,200  that  get  $5.00?  A.  We 
have  some  that  get  $5.00. 

Q.  Have  you  100  girls  in  the  group  that  get  $6.00  or  under?  A.  We 
haven’t  more  than  forty  or  fifty. 

Q.  We  will  take  your  figure  at  fifty.  What  we  are  trjdng  to  get  at,  ^Ir. 
Basch,  is  to  find  out  how  many  young  women  are  working  at  a figure 
which  necessitates  their  obtaining  money  elsewhere.  You  say  there  are 
fifty  getting  about  $6.00  a week;  is  that  correct?  A.  Yes,  about  that. 

Q.  Then,  there  wou’d  be  about  how  many  getting  $6.00  or  $7.00?  A. 
About  100. 

Q.  One  hundred  at  $7.00?  Now,  the  next  group.  Take  the  women 
between  $6.00  and  $8.00  or  $9.00?  A.  I should  say  they  get  $7.00,  $7.50 
or  $8.00. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


241 


Q.  How  many  would  you  say  are  in  that  next  group,  or  class?  A. 
Fifteen  to  20  per  cent  of  the  total.  I am  not  in  a position  to  give  you  the 
exact  figures. 

Q.  How  many  would  you  say  get  $9.00?  A.  I would  say  the  average 
was 

Q.  It  isn’t  the  average  we  are  after.  Let  us  take,  for  instance,  your 
salary  and  mine,  and  say  I get  $12.00  a week  and  you  get  $150.00  or 
$200.00?  A.  I would  say  you  would  be  very  much  underpaid. 

Q.  Can  you  give  me  the  number  that  get  $8.00?  A.  I should  judge 
about  300.  I am  not,  of  course,  sure  as  to  the  figures. 

Q.  You  are  doing  the  best  you  can?  A.  Absolutely.  That  is  all  I 
am  trying  to  do. 

Q.  Now,  we  have  accounted  for  400  girls,  and  there  are  1,250  to 
account  for.  What  is  the  next,  $9.00?  A.  I should  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  out  of  the  1,250  girls, 
500  are  below  $8.00  or  from  $8.00  down;  is  that  correct?  A.  The  figures 
I am  giving  you  may  not  be  absolutely  correct.  In  giving  you  our 
average  at  $8.56  I would  consider  that  half  of  them  would  be  below, 
approximately  half  would  be  below  that  figure  and  the  other  half  would 
be  higher. 

Q.  We  would  start  in  with  that  proposition,  that  500  are  below  the 
$8.00  figure?  A.  Five  hundred  would  average  about  $8.56. 

Q.  I want  to  ask  you,  Mr.  Basch,  do  you  consider  that  the  payment 
of  a wage  below  an  amount  necessary  to  live  on  is  in  any  way,  shape  or 
manner  a factor  in  the  vice  question?  A.  I don’t  think  vice  has  anything 
to  do  with  wages. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  that  a girl  who  hadn’t  a cent  in  her  pocket 
on  Thursday,  after  she  had  expended  the  $4.00  you  paid  her  on  Monday 
or  the  preceding  Saturday,  would  be  able  to  live  without  obtaining  from 
some  other  source  enough  to  keep  herself  comfortable?  A.  I don’t  think 
the  question  of  salary  enters  into  the  question  of  morality  at  all. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  a girl  who  has  nothing  in  her  pocket  is  less 
prone  to  fall  than  a girl  with  a full  pocketbook?  A.  I don’t  believe  that 
morality  enters  into  the  question.  I believe  that  our  girls  are  moral  girls. 
There  may  be  cases,  of  course,  where  money  comes  in,  but  I believe  a 
very  small  percentage  can  be  influenced  in  that  way  to  make  what  they 
call  “making  money  the  easiest  way.’’ 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you,  if  you  pay  300  girls  the  amount  of  money  which 
would  be  insufficient  to  enable  them  to  live  well,  and  they  got  money 
from  other  sources,  what  would  you  consider  to  be  the  cause?  A.  We 
wouldn’t  employ  them.  We  wouldn’t  employ  anyone  whose  pay  doesn’t 
cover  their  living  expenses. 

Q.  You  would  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  feel  as  to  the  girls  getting  $3.50  a week?  A.  We 
have  but  three  of  them  who  are  learners.  After  they  have  been  with  us 
for  a while  they  are  advanced. 

Q.  You  consider  that  the  wage  of  your  employes  is  on  a fair  basis? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  figured,  Mr.  Basch,  from  whence  that  difference  of 
$3.00  or  $4.00  must  come  where  it  would  cost  a girl  $8.00?  A.  I have. 

Q.  Where  does  it  come  from?  A.  We  only  have  four  or  five  at 
$4.00,  and  we  have  about  fifty  at  $5.00. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Does  it  make  any  difference  whather  you  have 
one  or  1,000?  A.  I would  like  to  answer  you.  Governor,  in  this  way: 
We  could  get  a great  many  if  we  wanted  them.  There  are  a number  of 
boys  and  girls  we  could  get  and  put  them  on  our  pay  rolls.  We  have 
three  learners  in  our  millinery  department  who  receive  $3.00  or  $3.50  a 
week.  You  realize  that  a girl  leaving  school  wants  to  learn  some  business, 
and  we  place  her  in  the  millinery  room. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I am  trying  to  find  out  where  the  difference, 
which  is  essential  in  order  that  the  girl  may  live  properly,  is  to  come  from 


242  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

if  it  comes  from  some  outside  source.  Have  you  bothered  yourself  to  find 
out  -where  it  comes  from?  A.  I have. 

Q.  Where  do  you  think  it  comes  from  generally?  A.  I am  quite 
familiar  with  it.  The  young  woman  who  accepts  a position  in  a store  of 
our  class,  or  on  State  Street,  in  accepting  that  wage  is  one  who  doesn’t 
expect  any  more.  She  goes  there  accepting  that  wage  for  a limited  period 
only,  and  I know  from  our  store  and  other  stores  that,  say  she  is  able  to 
earn  $6.00  in  1913,  perhaps  in  1915  she  can  earn  $20.00,  if  it  is  in  her.  The 
difference  between  the  cost  of  living  is  largely  made  up  and  only  made 
up  during  a period  such  as  I have  stated,  a very  brief  period.  Of  course, 
there  are  girls  who  are  not  capable  of  earning  as  much  as  other  girls,  but 
there  are  girls  who  start  in  as  learners  and  advance.  We  have  some  whom 
we  pay  $20.00  to  $25.00.  The  low  waged  girls  are  mainly  young  girls  that 
develop,  and  the  developing  period  is  not  very  long. 

Q.  Mr.  Basch,  if  I were  to  tell  you  that  a large  per  cent  of  the 
girls  that  have  been  before  this  Committee  fell  because  they  -were  getting 
only  $3.00  to  $4.00  a week,  what  would  you  say?  A.  From  a moral 
standpoint? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I don’t  think  the  question  of  morals  enters  into  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Suppose  they  are  getting  starvation  wages?  A. 
The  girl  getting  $5.00  a week  may  live  at  home  -with  her  parents. 

Q.  Where  would  you  have  her  go  if  she  could  not  live  on  the  $5.00 
a week?  A.  She  doesn’t  have  to  go  wrong.  She  may  live  at  home  and 
contribute  to  the  support  of  the  family. 

Q.  Are  you  a married  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  a family?  A.  I have. 

Q.  Have  you  any  daughters?  A.  I am  sorry  to  say  I have  not. 

Q.  If  you  had  a daughter  and  she  was  in  a position  that  she  could 
not  provide  for  herself  comfortably  and  was  getting  $5.00  a week,  do  j'ou 
think  there  would  be  a moral  obligation  on  you  to  pro-yide  for  her?  A. 
I would  endeavor  to  get  sufficient  for  her  to  earn  a living,  and  I would 
endeavor  to  provide  for  her  the  best  I could. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  have  shown  that  there  were  300  or  400  girls 
who  are  getting  a small  wage?  A.  Yes,  but  they  are  young  girls  and 
beginners.  Then  there  are  apprentices. 

Q.  Were  you  an  apprentice  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  apprenticeship  covered  your  board  and  lodging?  A.  It 
did  not. 

Q.  You  didn’t  even  get  that  much?  A.  I got  a great  deal  less  than 

that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  were  less  fortunate  than  I was. 

THE  WITNESS:  I am  glad  you  were  more  fortunate. 

SENATOR  JULTL:  I got  all  that,  and  I was  glad  of  it. 

THE  WITNESS:  I worked  without  paJ^ 

Q.  You  cannot  tell  the  Committee  where  the  difference  is  to  come 
from?  A.  I say  the  difference  is  made  up  in  that  indefinite  period.  In 
some  instances  it  amounts  to  three  months,  and  in  others  it  amounts  to 
nine  months.  It  depends  entirely  on  the  individual.  During  that  tkne  the 
girl  lives  at  home.  These  $4.00,  $5.00  and  $6.00  girls,  as  a rule,  we  get 
from  the  country  who  have  little  experience,  hardly  any  experience.  They 
come  to  Chicago  to  get  employment.  After  a time  some  earn  $10.00  or 
$12.00  or  $1L00.  During  that  period  they  prepare  themselves  for  making 
more  money. 

Q.  You  would  sav  that  is  a probation  period  until  they  are  absolutely 
self-supporting?  A.  I should  say  that  would  be  about  nine  months, 
perhaps  six  months. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  you  have  on  an  average 
500  to  600  girbs A.  Below  $8.00? 

Q.  Yes.  Do  you  mean  to  say  there  are  that  many  promotions  in 
your  store  in  a year?  A.  M^e  certainly  have  a great  many,  and  a great 
many  get  married.  They  don’t  wait  for  promotions. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


243 


Q.  Do  you  consider  that  your  firm,  or  other  large  firms,  in  the  City 

of  Chicago,  would  be  very  much  affected  if  a law  was  enacted  compelling 

the  employer  to  pay  an  amount  of  money  necessary  to  keep  a girl  from 
■ being  thrown  on  some  other  source  for  a living?  A.  Absolutely  not. 

Q.  You  know  it  has  been  proposed  to  enact  a law  of  that  kind?  A. 
[ Yes,  sir.  I favor  such  a law,  except  in  this,  that  the  wage  law  should  pro- 
vide for  apprenticeship. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Of  course,  you  realize  that  even  in  the  period 
of  apprenticeship  the  employe  would  have  to  live?  A.  Yes,  but  he  might 
develop  soon. 

Q.  Do  you  own  a shoe  factory?  A.  We  do  not. 

I b Q.  Do  you  operate  a shoe  factory?  A.  We  do,  not. 

‘ THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe,  as  a business  proposition,  in 
' the  survival  of  the  fittest?  That  is,  you  take  your  employe  and  you  pay 

I small  wages,  the  fittest  will  survive,  and  you  are  only  concerned  in  that; 

in  other  words,  you  believe  in  the  survival  of  the  fittest?  A.  No,  I 
believe  in  developing  them  in  every  possible  way  and  developing  them 
; in  making  fair  remuneration. 

Q.  What  do  you  deem  the  scope  of  your  moral  responsibility  for  the 
1 humblest  girl  working  for  your  corporation?  A.  We  assume  that  prac- 
tically  all  of  our  girls  are  moral. 

Q.  You  think  that  this  is  a moral  question?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
j!  Q.  Has  any  man  the  right  to  spend  as  much  for  one  meal  as  he 
! spends  for  a girl’s  weekly  salary?  A.  Pardon  me,  I want  to  get  the 
|!  question. 

Q.  Let  me  put  it  to  you  a little  plainer.  Some  men  might  spend 
$5.00  for  a meal  and  at  the  same  time  are  paying  girls  $5.00  a week  to 
work  for  them.  That  might  be  possible.  As  a business  proposition,  do 
you  think  any  man  has  a right  to  do  that?  A.  I would  like  to  know  of 
anyone  who  has  a stomach  that  could  contain  that  much. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  the  man’s  stomach  and  not  the  girl’s 
morality?  A.  I don’t  believe  many  men  can  spend  $5.00  for  a meal.  I 
never  spent  over  $1.00  in  my  life.  I don’t  think  that  is  fair.  I don’t  believe 
any  employer  who  spends  $5.00  for  a dinner  and  gives  his  employe  $5.00 
a week  is  fair. 

Q.  What  was  the  net  profits  of  your  corporation  during  the  last  fiscal 
year?  A.  I prefer  not  to  answer  that  question  without  the  advice  of  our 
counsel. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  record  will  show,  and  we  will  take  it  up 
later. 

THE  WITNESS:  I would  be  very  glad  to. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : What  wage  or  wages  would  you  consider  an 
apprentice  should  be  paid?  You  stated  a while  ago  that  you  were  in  favor 
1!  of  a minimum  wage  if  it  would  make  an  allowance  for  an  apprentice?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  consider  an  apprentice  wage  should  be?  A. 
That  depends  entirely  on  the  education  desired  for  the  industry  that  the 
apprenticeship  is  entered  into.  If  the  boy  or  girl  wants  to  become  a 
worker  in  a shoe  factory  he  or  she  might  start  at  fourteen,  or  if  he  or  she 
is  desirous  of  some  other  class  of  work,  a high  school  education  might  be 
necessary.  The  age  would  vary  from  fourteen  to  eighteen  years. 

Q.  In  your  store,  of  course,  you  are  better  posted  on  that  than 
anyone  else.  What  would  you  consider  the  age  should  be?  A.  That 
depends  entirely  on  the  ambition  of  the  girl. 

Q.  But  she  is  starting  at  the  bottom  as  an  apprentice?  A.  She 
should  not  start  below  sixteen.  I believe  in  girls  going  to  school  up  to 
sixteen  years  of  age. 

Q.  How  much  wages  should  a girl  of  sixteen  receive;  what  would 


244  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


be  the  minimum  amount?  A.  I think  at  that  age  the  minimum  should 
be  $5.00  as  an  apprentice. 

Q.  How  long  should  she  receive  $5.00  a week?  A.  That  would 
depend  on  her  energy,  and  on  the  interest  she  takes  in  her  work  and  on 
her  development.  It  ought  not  to  take  her  over  twelve  months. 

Q.  That  she  should  receive  $5.00  a week  for  twelve  months?  A. 
She  might  be  raised  and  put  in  a better  position. 

Q.  Then  what  should  she  receive?  A.  That  depends  entirely,  of 
course,  on  the  industry.  She  ought  to  have  $8.00  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  long  should  she  receive  $8.00  a week;  that  is,  in  3mur  judg- 
ment? A.  I think  she  ought  to  get  up  to  $12.00  or  $15.00  a week  in 
three  or  four  years,  three  years  at  least. 

Q.  What  should  be  the  limit  that  she  should  receive,  or  should  there 
be  any  limit?  A.  That  limit  in  our  business  are  female  buyers. 

Q.  What  do  these  buyers  receive?  A.  We  have  women  in  our 

employ,  heads  of  departments,  who  receive  from  $3,000  to-  $6,000  a j'ear 
who  started  as  apprentices  at  $3.50  per  week. 

Q.  Could  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company  pay  $2.00  a day,  or  $12.00  a 
week,  as  a minimum  wage  scale  without  affecting  their  profit  materiall}''  and 
without  raising  the  price  of  goods  to  the  consumer?  A.  We  are  now 
paying  young  women  $12.00,  $14.00,  $16.00,  $18.00  and  up  to  $25.00  a week. 
We  have  some  who  earn  as  much  as  $29.00.  There  has  got  to  be  a merit  j 
system.  You  have  got  to  be  able  to  earn  $12.00  a week.  ! 

Q.  Could  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company  do  that  without  affecting  their  i 

profits  materially  and  still  pay  a reasonable  percentage  to  their  stock-  i 

holders?  A.  I haven’t  considered  that.  j 

Q.  It  would  cut  down  the  dividends  materiallj^,  would  it?  A.  I 
cannot  discuss  our  dividends. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Would  it  cut  down  3’our  dividends  or  wipe  them 
out  completely?  A.  That  I am  not  prepared  to  answer.  I would  want 
to  study  that. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  know  what  the  dividends  are,  don’t  j'ou?  i 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I don’t  ask  you  to  tell  it  now?  A.  I don’t  remember  just  now. 

Q.  Now,  this  increase  in  pay  under  a minimum  wage  scale,  do  j'ou 
know  whether  that  would  affect  the  dividends  materialljO  A.  If  the 
minimum  wage  is  of  the  proper  scale  I don’t  think  it  would  interfere  with 
the  profits  at  all,  but  if  it  were  not  it  would  be  a hardship. 

Q.  And  Siegel,  Cooper  couldn’t  afford  it?  A.  I am  not  speaking 
for  Siegel,  Cooper  alone.  The  minimum  wage  scale  is  a national  question. 

Q.  I am  speaking  about  Siegel  & Cooper,  and  I am  asking  if  j'ou 
could  afford  to  pay  $12.00  a week  to  all  your  female  emplo^-es  and  still 
pay  a reasonable  dividend  upon  your  investment?  A.  I will  sa^^  we  would 
be  glad  to  pay  a minimum  rate  of  wages,  and  if  it  is  established  we  would 
accept  it  in  that  spirit. 

Q.  Yes,  but  how  can  the  state  get  at  the  just  amount  that  j'ou  can 
afford  to  pay  unless  you  answer  these  questions?  A.  Our  average  today 
is  $8.56. 

Q.  I was  asking  you  what  you  could  afford  to  paj'?  A.  \\  e couldn’t 
afford  to  pay  $12.00  to  some  emploj-es. 

Q.  You  couldn’t  afford  to  pay  that?  A.  Not  to  apprentices;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  it  would  reduce  the  profits  below  a reasonable  basis  to  pay 
$12.00  a week?  A.  It  would  be  a disadvantage  to  pay  $12.00  to  some 
employes. 

Q.  Could  you  pay  a reasonable  profit  to  the  shareholders  of  Siegel, 
Cooper  & Company  and  pay  $12.00  a week  as  a minimum  Avage  to  female 
employes?  A.  If  the  scale  is  maintained. 

Q.  Then,  Siegel,  Cooper  & CompanA^  couldn’t  do  as  aa'cII  as  other 
department  stores?  A.  I don’t  knoAV  AA’hat  other  department  stores 
can  do. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


24S 


j SENATOR  BEALL:  Let  me  ask  you  a question:  You  say  you 
I would  be  in  favor  of  paying  a minimum  scale  provided  you  hadn’t  to  pay 
the  apprentices?  A.  If  we  were  to  pay  $12.00  a week  as  a minimum  it 
I might  affect  our  business,  of  course. 

jl  Q.  You  think  it  would  affect  your  business  materially?  A.  I think 
' your  question  is  almost  impossible  to  answer.  I think  a girl  or  boy 
entering  the  commercial  field  is  willing  to  work  on  smaller  wages. 

, ■ Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  some  of  the  prominent  merchants? 
: A.  Yes,  there  is  Mr.  Netcher,  who  started  as  a boy,  and  he  would  sleep 
I on  the  counter.  There  was  Marshall  Field,  who  was  a boy  in  Massa- 

I chusetts  who  came  out  here.  Then  there  were  the  Mandels.  They  started 

II  in  the  same  manner.  Mr.  Lehman,  who  left  us  quite  a few  years  ago,  was 
I a very  poor  boy  and  developed  wonderfully.  In  our  own  store,  there  is 
I Mr.  Cooper,  who  was  one  of  the  boys  who  started  without  anything,  and 
" Mr.  Siegel. 

Q.  When  you  hire  these  girls  you  ask  them  about  their  education 
and  their  age?  A.  Yes,  our  application  blanks  specify  the  conditions 
under  which  they  can  enter  our  house. 

f SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Basch,  while  you  were  discussing  these 
matters  with  the  other  gentlemen  I did  a little  quiet  figuring,  and  I think 
we  are  overestimating  the  problem  we  are  confronted  with.  You  gave  me 
I an  average  wage  of  your  1,250  girls  at  $8.56  per  week.  I take  it  for 

granted  that  is  a correct  number,  is  not  that  so?  A.  Yes,  we  have  a 

j great  many. 

I Q.  Figuring  they  are  all  down  to  $8.56  as  an  average,  it  would  take 
I Siegel,  Cooper  & Company  to  lift  the  entire  force  up  to  $12.00  a week  as 
I a standard  the  amount  of  $223,600.00?  A.  You  mean  $223,600.00  a year? 

Q.  Yes.  That  is,  if  I have  it  right.  Now,  if  that  is  so,  would  that 

I hamper  the  concern  in  order  that  these  women  may  be  absolutely  self- 

supporting  women  and  still  they  could  pay  a reasonable  dividend?  A.  I 
don’t  know  whether  they  could  or  not.  I have  not  figured  on  that.  We 
' would  have  to  consider  the  working  condition  at  all  times. 

“ SENATOR  TOSSEY : Do  you  say  that  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company 
I could  afford  to  pay  the  minimum  wage  scale  without  interfering  with 
; their  business?  A.  Not  for  apprenticeship;  no. 

Q.  They  would  have  to  have  other  resources  for  getting  an  additional 
f profit?  A.  Perhaps  we  could  get  more  for  our  merchandise  than  we  do. 

jl  Q.  What  is  the  difference  between  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company  and 

I the  other  department  stores?  A.  Pardon  me? 

! Q.  What  is  the  difference  between  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company  and 

\ the  other  department^stores?  A.  We  have  paid  the  market  wage.  People 

i:  would  not  stay  with  us  unless  we  did. 

Q.  Do  they  pay  more  than  you  do?  A.  I don’t  know  that  they  are 
[‘  paying  more  than  we  do. 

I Q.  What  I wanted  to  get  at  is,  why  your  profits  w'ould  be  decreased 

Iso  much  more  than  theirs?  A.  We  don’t  all  have  the  same  line.  Senator. 
SENATOR  JUUL:  Senator  Tossey,  if  you  will  pardon  me,  the 
witness  has  testified  under  oath  as  to  the  average  wages  paid. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Fie  has  sworn  that  it  would  reduce  the  divi- 
! dend  to  such  an  extent  that  they  couldn’t  afford  it,  as  I understand  him. 
THE  WITNESS:  I didn’t  say  that;  pardon  me.  Senator. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : That  is  the  way  I understood  you. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  His  answers  have  been  very  evasive.  I think 
[!  the  Committee  has  lost  a little  patience  over  it. 

i THE  WITNESS:  I am  not  trying  to  be  evasive.  Governor.  I am 

t trying  to  be  as  fair  as  I can. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Simpson,  representing  Marshall  Field  & 
I Company,  said  that  Marshall  Field  & Company  could  afford  to  pay  a 
j minimum  wage  if  established  by  the  State  of  Illinois,  and  he  was  asked 


246  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


specifically  if  Marshall  Field  & Company  could  pay  the  humblest  girl  in 
its  employ  $12.00  a week,  and  he  answered  yes. 

THE  WITNESS:  I think  you  misunderstood  him. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Committee  then  decided  to  leave  for  future 
consideration  the  question  as  to  the  income,  and  now  you  are  forcing  us 
to  lose  considerable  time.  Senator  Tossey  has  asked  you.  Senator  Juul 
has  asked  you,  and,  I think.  Senator  Beall  has  asked  you  these  questions, 
as  to  whether  you  could  afford  to  pay  $12.00  a week  and  not  affect  3"Our 
business  materially. 

THE  WITNESS:  We  can  afford  to  pay  $12.00  for  a great  many 
women,  but  we  couldn’t  afford  to  pay  a minimum  of  $12.00  for  apprentice- 
ship. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Then,  if  a law  w’ere  enacted  in  this  State  that 
no  woman  should  be  paid  less  than  $12.00  a week,  your  concern  would  go 
into  bankruptcy?  A.  I don’t  think  so,  if  all  were  put  on  the  same  basis. 

Q.  You  think  you  could  still  survive?  A.  Yes,  we  should  trj-  to 
carry  it  out. 

Q.  You  think  you  could  respect  the  law  and  carrj-  it  out?  A.  It 
would  be  a great  hardship  on  a great  man}^  institutions. 

Q.  Well,  in  your  institution?  A.  If  it  were  done  by  legal  enact- 
ment we  shall  accept  it  and  take  our  chances,  of  course. 

Q.  Suppose  the  law  specified  $10.00  a week,  do  j'ou  think  j-our 
chances  of  survival  would  be  better?  A.  I think  there  would  be  a 
greater  possibility  than  $12.00. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  would  be  a fair  amount?  A.  It  might  not 
interfere  with  klarshall  Field  & Compan}^  or  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company, 
but  there  are  a great  many  little  stores  in  this  communitj'  that  have  to  be 
considered. 

Q.  Yes,  but  what  would  you  say  should  be  the  amount?  A.  Well, 
taking  it  at  an  average,  a minimum  wage  of  $8.00  or  $8.50. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  what  we  wanted  to  get,  and  we  are 
much  obliged  to  you. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  have  got  it  after  all. 

THE  WITNESS:  You  don’t  mean  me? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Yes,  that  is  what  I have  been  trj-ing  to  get  out 
of  you  for  an  hour. 

THE  WITNESS:  My  statement  was  as  to  apprenticeship.  There 
should  be  a provision  as  to  apprenticeship. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  ought  to  be  left  like  that  for  a limited  number  of 
months  that  you  should  employ  a specified  number  of  people  at  apprentice 
wages?  A.  Absolutely. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  us  get  that  in  the  record.  We  are  getting 
his  opinion  on  that. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  manj-  apprentices  have3"Ou?  A.  We  have 
sixty-eight. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  emplo}',  all  told?  A.  One  thousand, 
two  hundred  and  fifty. 

Q.  Out  of  the  1,250  women  you  have  sixty-eight  apprentices?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Basch,  how  man3'  hours  do  you  work  the 
girls  in  what  is  commonly  called  the  Christmas  season?  A.  Legal  hours, 
only. 

Q.  Do  you  give  them  any  compensation  for  overtime?  A.  M e don’t 
use  overtime  in  our  store.  Let  me  explain  that.  During  the  Christmas 
season  we  keep  open  until  10  o’clock.  Some  girls  do  not  appear  before 
12:30  o’clock. 

Q.  Those  are  the  hours  at  that  season?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


247 


THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  will  be  all,  Mr.  Basch.  You  are  not  given 
your  full  release  yet.  We  may  want  you  again. 

THE  WITNESS:  I shall  be  glad  to  serve  you  at  any  time. 
SENATOR  JUUL:  We  want  your  co-operation. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Yes,  we  want  your  co-operation. 

THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Commission  will  now  take  a recess  until 
2:30  o’clock  P.  M. 

Thereupon  the  Commission  took  a recess  until  2 :30  P.  M. 


SESSION  VIII 


Mr.  William  C.  Thorne  states  his  belief  that  one-half  of  the 
j women  workers  of  Montgomery  Ward  & Co.  would  be  out  of  work 
within  a year  after  the  establishment  of  a minimum  wage  law,  their 
: places  being  taken  by  men  at  $12.00  to  $14.00. 

I Mr.  John  T.  Pirie  of  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Co.  believes  $8.00 

; a week  to  be  the  smallest  wage  upon  which  a self-dependent 
girl  can  live. 

Mr.  Edward  J.  Lehmann  of  The  Fair  states  that  in  his  opin- 
ion any  increase  of  wages  for  workers  now  paid  less  than  $8.00 
a week  would  bring  a demand  for  increases  from  those  earning 
hieher  wages,  but  does  not  believe  his  firm  would  contest  a 
minimum  wage  law. 

Mr.  Henry  C.  Schwab,  vice-president  and  secretary  of  A.  M. 
Rothschild  & Co.,  admits  that  the  question  of  revealing  profits  to 
the  Vice  Committee  had  been  a matter  of  discussion  among  State 
street  merchants. 

Mr.  Albert  Ellinger,  merchandise  manager,  explains  the  Bos- 
ton Store’s  wage  scale  and  payroll. 

Chicago,  Monday,  March  10,  1913,  2:30  o’clock  P.  M. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  recess. 

Present  same  as  before,  with  the  exception  of  Senator  Woodard. 

Mr.  William  C.  Thorne’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAM  C.  THORNE,  a witness  called  by  the  Committee,  having 
t been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

t 

(EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  William  C.  Thorne.  , 

Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  Vice-president  of  Montgomery  Ward 
& Company. 

; Q.  Montgomery  Ward  & Company  is  a corporation?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  Under  the  laws  of  the  State  of  Illinois?  A.  No,  New  York. 

Q.  As  an  official  in  that  company,  you  have  it  in  your  power  to  em- 
ploy and  discharge  woman  workers?  A.  I have  it  in  my  power,  although 
■ I do  not  exercise  it. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted,  in  a general  way,  with  the  wages  paid  women 
who  work  for  your  company?  A.  I am. 

! Q.  How  many  women,  Mr.  Thorne,  are  employed  by  your  corpora- 

I tion?  A.  1,973. 

I ' Q-  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  women  by  your  corporation? 

S A.  Well,  I have  subdivided  them  into  two  classes.  One  considering  the 

beginners 

H Q.  Let  us  have  the  beginners.  A.  The  firm  employs  1,973  women, 

. i and  eliminating  the  beginners,  who  I have  no  doubt  we  will  discuss  later, 

there  are  1,140  who  get  an  average  wage,  an  average  weekly  salary  of  $9.25. 

. Q.  That  eliminates  the  beginners’ class?  A.  Yes,  I will  refer  to  them 
^ directly. 

I s Q.  Now,  in  that  classification,  Mr.  Thorne,  what  is  the  highest  wage 
t 249 


250 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


paid  to  any  woman?  A.  Eliminating  all  over  $15.00  per  week,  the  average 
wage  paid  is  $8.80. 

Q.  How  many  are  in  the  class  of  $8.80?  A.  1,098. 

Q.  That  is  the  average?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  1,098  are  receiving  $8.80?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Thorne,  the  total  number  of  women  employed  is  1,973, 
exclusive  of  the  beginning  class  of  1,140.  Then  you  have  something  like 
one-third  of  the  women  in  the  beginners’  class?  A.  Even  more  than  that. 

Q.  A little  more  than  that?  A.  Yes,  due  to  special  conditions  that 
prevail  just  now,  such  as  the  spring  addressing  and  indexing  work. 

Q.  That  is  true  at  all  seasons  of  the  year?  A.  Not  always,  no. 

Q.  Now  what  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  the  woman  workers  in  the 
beginning  class?  A.  They  are  started  at  $5.00  and  $6.00.  There  are  233 
at  $5.00,  572  at  $6.00,  373  at  $7.00  and  316  at  $8.00. 

Q.  Now  the  girl  who  receives  $8.00  then,  you  still  include  her  in  the 
beginning  class?  A.  No,  not  necessarily.  That  is  our  minimum  wage  for 
a girl  who  may  or  may  not  be  self-supporting,  and  who  lives  at  home,  or 
what  we  call  a girl  adrift. 

Q.  What,  Mr.  Thorne,  is  the  lowest  wage  you  pay  to  any  woman  on 
your  pay  roll?  A.  Five  dollars  a week. 

Q.  That  is  the  lowest?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  the  lowest. 

Q.  You  have  no  system  of  piecework  by  which  a girl  might  or  might 
not  make  less  than  $5.00  a week?  A.  No  way  whatever. 

Q.  Have  you  anj^  system  of  piecework  in  vogue?  A.  We  do  not  use 
piecework  in  any  department  of  our  business,  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Thorne,  let  us  discuss  these  233  who  get  $5.00  a week. 
What  is  the  average  age  of  those  girls?  A.  From  14  to  16,  and  they  are 
made  up  of  all  girls  with  school  certificates,  and  who  live  at  home  with 
their  guardians  and  relatives,  and  they  are  included  in  this  class  with  no 
exceptions. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that?  A.  We  believe  their  assertions  to  be 
true,  as  we  have  the  school  certificates,  and  in  most  cases  the  parents  bring 
them  themselves,  seeking  the  positions  for  them.  ' 

Q.  Have  you  any  way  of  telling  whether  the  signatures  of  the  parents 
are  genuine  or  that  their  ages  are  correct?  A.  They  are  visited  by  the 
school  teacher  or  principal. 

Q.  Then  it  requires  not  only  the  signature  of  parent  or  parents,  but 
also  the  signature  of  the  school  teacher  or  superintendent  of  the  school? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  employ  no  girl,  at  $5.00  a week,  who  is  not  self-supporting? 
A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Thorne,  we  have  a question  that  we  have  asked  most 
of  the  witnesses,  and  it  is  this;  Do  you  think,  as  an  employer  of  labor, 
using  the  entire  working  time  of  a girl,  that  you  have  any  right  to  place 
the  burden,  or  a part  of  the  burden  of  her  living,  upon  her  home  or  upon 
her  parents?  A.  Well,  my  contention  is  that  that  is  what  parents  are  for, 
and  just  before  we  hire  the  girl,  we  know  she  has  been  going  to  school, 
getting  her  education,  and  being  supported  by  the  family,  and  instead  of 
placing  a part  of  the  burden  on  the  family,  we  have  been  a relief  to  that 
family  to  the  extent  of  $5.00  a week. 

Q.  Now  it  suggests  itself  to  me,  Mr.  Thorne,  that  possibly  that  is  one 
of  the  reasons  for  race  suicide.  If  that  burden  is  placed  entirely  on  the 
parent,  don’t  you  think,  Mr.  Thorne,  that  when  the  girl,  regardless  of  her 
experience,  goes  to  work  and  surrenders  all  her  time  and  effort  to  her  em- 
ployer, she  is  entitled  to  a living  wage  without  being  dependent  upon  the 
people  at  home?  A.  In  most  cases  these  girls  simply  want  to  work  for 
the  purpose  of  assisting  the  family.  Thej"  are  young,  and  they  have  fin- 
ished their  grammar  school  education  at  14,  or  attained  the  average  age  of 
14  and  15,  and  do  not  know  what  to  do  with  themselves.  I think  it  would 
be  better  if  they  were  obliged  to  go  to  school  until  they  w'ere  16;  at  which 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


251 


i 

t time  they  would  be  more  educated,  and  be  able  to  draw  a higher  salary, 
t j As  it  is,  they  are  semi-educated,  half-baked,  and  don’t  know  much.  They 
r have  to  be  taken  in  hand  and  taught,  and  their  parents  want  them  to  go  to 
i;  I;  nice  places,  and  to  have  nice  things  in  all  their  surroundings,  and  to  have 
t i good  and  sanitary  places,  and  everything  there  to  take  care  of  them,  and 
which  is  there  at  all  times,  and  that  is  the  reason  why  their  parents  bring 
them  to  our  establishment.  These  girls  do  not  have  to  work  unless  they 
want  to,  but  in  many  cases  the  parents  are  poor  and  would  like  to  have  a 
little  help,  and  they  get  it  in  this  way. 

S Q.  A sort  of  charitable  institution,  in  a way?  A.  Not  at  all. 

j Q.  Well,  Mr.  Thorne,  have  you  one  girl  in  your  employ  who  is  getting 

I $5.00  a week,  and  who  is  dependent  upon  her  own  efforts?  A.  I have  al- 
ready answered  that  there  are  none. 

Q.  Have  you  a single  girl  in  your  employ,  drawing  $5.00  per  week, 
who  comes  from  a home  that  is  poor,  or  as  poor  as  the  girl  herself?  A. 
That  I do  not  know  of  my  own  knowledge.  I do  know  that  in  a case  of 
that  sort,  one  of  the  matrons,  or  welfare  workers  or  nurses — and  there 
are  a great  many,  because  on  this  subject  we  spend  thousands  of  dollars 
i every  year^ — ^they  would  know  it  in  a week  or  so.  No  girl  who  lacks  any 
food,  or  anything  of  that  sort,  and  is  asked  the  question  and  answers  it  in 
that  way,  goes  without.  Within  24  hours  the  nurse  is  at  her  house  to  find 
out  what  the  home  is  like,  and  she  is  rendered  assistance  for  the  time  be- 

!!  ing,  no  matter  what  that  may  be. 

Q.  We  have  had  one  witness  here,  a girl,  Mr.  Thorne,  who  testified 
that  she  knew  of  another  girl  working  for  $5.00  a week,  not  in  your  place 
of  business,  but  in  a similar  place,  who  came  from  a home  superintended 
■ by  a widowed  mother  and  a crippled  sister,  and  this  girl  makes  $4.00 
a week,  whatever  the  work  might  have  been,  with  which  she  was  support- 
ing herself,  and  helping  to  support  her  widowed  mother  and  crippled  sister. 
Could  sucb  a condition  exist  at  your  place  of  business?  A.  I think  that 
is  a deplorable  condition  and  might  exist  anywhere.  Now  we  could  find 
out,  or  get  information,  or  make  some  effort  to  find  out  about  it,  and  then 
we  would  apply  the  remedy.  Such  a girl  ought  to  be  helped  by  the  em- 
l|  ployer,  or  by  the  state.  I would  say  that  family  is  terribly  fixed. 

I Q.  As  an  employer,  have  you  any  such  instances?  A.  We  have  no 

I instances  of  that  description  of  any  persons  working  in  our  establishment. 
We  do  feel  that  we  ought  to  try  and  help  them  out  in  every  way.  If  they 
are  sick,  their  doctor  bills  are  paid,  and  not  only  that,  but  if  they  are  off 
j;  a day  on  leave  of  absence,  we  pay  them,  and  also  pay  them  if  they  stay 
I sick  for  some  time. 

Q.  Might  I ask  you,  Mr.  Thorne,  how  long  a girl  remains  a beginner 
ii  at  $5.00  a week?  A.  From  60  to  90  days. 

IQ.  Have  you  ever  had  instances  where  she  has  remained  at  $5.00  for 
a longer  period?  A.  That  might  have  happened  without  my  knowledge. 
The  rule  is  that  if  she  cannot  earn  $6.00  at  the  end  of  90  days,  something 
else  is  found  for  her  to  do,  in  the  way  of  some  other  employment. 

Q.  That  is,  you  discharge  her?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  give  her  reasonable  notice?  A.  She  is  always  given  rea- 
j sonable  notice;  yes,  sir. 

i Q.  That  is  the  invariable  rule  at  the  present  time,  is  it?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
■|  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  and  belief. 

\ Q.  How  long  does  a girl,  starting  at  $5.00  a week,  remain  in  the  be- 

iginners’  class?  A.  She  may  stay  in  there  about  six  months,  at  which  time 
she  is  advanced  to  $7.00  if  her  work  is  acceptable,  and  she  is  capable. 

Q.  Suppose  they  are  not  capable,  do  they  remain  at  $6.00,  or  are  they 
discharged?  A.  I cannot  answer  that.  There  is  some  understanding,  but 
I do  not  know  what  it  is.  I forgot  to  look  it  up. 

Q.  To  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  how  long  has  any  girl  remained 
in  your  employment,  at  wages  not  to  exceed  $6.00  a week?  A.  To  the  best 
of  my  knowledge,  not  to  exceed  a year,  but  there  might  be  exceptional 
cases  I know  nothing  about. 


252  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Have  any  such  cases  ever  been  called  to  your  attention?  A. 
Never. 

Q.  Now  then,  we  will  say  in  a year,  if  she  remains  the  maximum 
period  of  a year,  she  advances  to  $7.00.  How  long  does  she  remain  at 
$7.00,  Mr.  Thorne?  A.  Well,  the  same  conditions  apply.  If  a girl  lives 
at  home,  and  is  capable  of  advancing,  she  is  advanced  as  rapidly  as  pos- 
sible. We  are  always  trying  to  put  up  the  good  workers,  the  capable  girls, 
who  do  the  work  possiljly  of  addressing  letters  and  running  errands. 

Q.  Then  as  I understand  you,  you  have  a rule  whereby  a girl  advances 
by  rule,  her  ability  being  sufficient,  from  $5.00  to  $7.00  in  a period  approxi- 
mately of  one  year?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now  when  she  reaches  the  $7.00  rate,  your  interest  in  her  promo- 
tion ceases,  unless  she  shows  unusual  ability,  or  have  you  any  rule  by 
which  she  is  advanced?  A.  Not  unusual  ability,  but  some  ability.  If  she 
has  been  there  a year,  she  usually  has  that  ability;  her  education  or  knowl-  I 
edge  of  our  methods  makes  that. 

_ Q.  Of  the  girls  drawing  $7.00  a week,  what  do  you  say  the  average 
period  of  their  service  has  to  be  before  they  are  further  advanced?  A.  I 
have  no  statistics  on  that  subject,  but  I think  they  are  advanced  with  rea- 
sonable rapidity,  but  I do  not  know. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  a^e  of  the  girls  making  $7.00  a week?  A. 
Under  eighteen. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  age  of  any  woman  making  $7.00  a week,  in 
your  employ?  A.  I do  not  know. 

Q.  Do  you  imagine  you  have  any  women  between  the  ages  of  38  and 
40  making  $7.00  a w’eek?  A.  I do  not  think  so. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  know  definitely?  A.  No,  I do  not. 

Q.  Now  would  you  say,  Mr.  Thorne,  that  you  have  any  women  in  the 
employ  of  your  corporation,  who  stay  in  the  $7.00  class,  or  the  $5.00  or  the 
$6.00  or  the  $7.00  class  for  a period  of  five  years?  A.  I do  not  think  such 
a condition  is  possible. 

Q.  What  would  happen  if  a woman  remained  in  that  class  three  years? 

A.  Why,  if  a woman  does  not  show  some  signs  of  capability,  and  she  can- 
not be  advanced,  why,  she  is  evidently  in  our  way,  and  not  suitable  for  the 
work. 

Q.  And  then  she  is  discharged?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  have  a sort  of  school  probation  there,  by 
which  a woman  must  show  her  ability?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  you  conduct  that  part  of  your  business  in  the  nature  of  a col- 
lege? A.  Exactly  so. 

Q.  And  if  they  fail  to  pass  their  examination,  you  drop  them  the  same 
as  they  would  be  dropped  from  a college?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  the  $7.00  and  $8.00  class  you  say  you  have  girls  who  are  getting 
$8.00  a week,  that  you  still  classify  in  the  beginners’  class?  A.  No,  I do 
not  classify  them  then  in  the  beginners’  class.  The  question  whether  they 
are  adrift,  or  live  at  home  is  at  that  period  of  no  consequence  to  me  per- 
sonally, I mean. 

Q.  Why  of  no  consequence,  Mr.  Thorne?  A.  Their  grade  is  then 
passed  upon  by  their  ability,  and  we  are  not  charged  with  having  gone  be- 
low our  minimum  wage  scale,  which  is  $8  a week  for  any  girl  that  is  self- 
supporting.  Now  she  may  live  at  home  and  still  get  $8.00;  that  is  what  I 
mean  to  convey. 

Q.  What  do  you  estimate,  klr.  Thorne,  the  least  amount  upon  which 
a self-dependent  woman  can  exist  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  Eight  dol- 
lars per  week. 

Q.  And  under  that  estimate,  you  would  allow  her  a reasonable  range 
of  amusement,  such  as  a nickel  show  now  and  then?  A.  I have  here  a 
few  schedules  covering  that  subject. 

Q.  We  will  take  them  up  later.  A.  I have  only  four  here,  but  they 
are  indicative. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


253 


Q.  Mr.  Thorne,  how  much  would  it  cost  your  establishment  to 
abolish  the  $5.00  and  $6.00  and  $7.00  class,  and  pay  a minimum  wage  of 
i$8.00  a week?  A.  It  would  simply  mean  adding  an  average  of  $2.50  a 
week  to  these  1,100  people. 

Q.  Have  you  figured  out  how  much  that  would  be?  A.  Seventy- 
five  thousand  dollars  a year. 

Q.  Seventy-five  thousand  dollars  a year?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  may  I ask,  Mr.  Thorne,  if  your  profits  for  the  last  fiscal 
year  were  in  excess  of  $75,000?  A.  They  certainly  were. 

Q.  Very  much  in  excess  of  $75,000?  A.  Very  much. 

J Q.  What  were  the  net  profits  of  your  corporation  during  the  last 
•fiscal  year?  A.  Two  million,  three  hundred  and  seventy  thousand  dollars. 
|[  ■ Q.  Now,  Mr.  Thorne,  you  put  on  this  side  of  the  table  $2,000,000 

and  on  this  other  side  $75,000,  what  sort  of  a comparison  does  that  make; 
in  other  words,  from  your  $2,000,000  you  could  take  $75,000  and  not  notice 
it,  could  you  not?  A.  That  doesn’t  mean  anything  to  me. 

Q.  It  does  to  the  girls?  A.  I don’t  think  it  does.  I don’t  know 
that  you  know  that  we  have  people  that  have  studied  these  girls  and  who 
know  them  from  A to  Z. 

Q.  Might  I ask,  Mr.  Thorne,  if  the  corporation  of  Montgomery 
Ward  & Company  would  spend  $75,000  a year  if  its  directors  or  officers 
thought  that  by  the  expenditure  of  $75,000  it  would  make  the  homes  of 
these  workers  a little  happier?  A.  We  spend  nearly  $75,000  a year  in 
doing  that  same  thing,  with  our  relief  work,  insurance  work,  sick  benefits, 
^indemnities,  old  age  pensions,  and  other  things  that  I do  not  think  of  at 
fpresent,  which  is  this  same  thing.  We  pay  their  doctor  bills,  and  loan 
[money  to  indigent  employes;  father  sick,  etc.;  we  spend  that  much  now 
^every  year,  or  approximately  that  much  in  round  figures.  I do  not  know 
[just  the  amount. 

j Q.  If  a minimum  wage  of  $12.00  a week,  if  such  a wage  were,  pro- 
; vided  under  a law  enacted  by  the  Legislature  of  this  State,  would  it 
Iseriously  affect  your  business?  A.  It  would  not  seriously  affect  our 
tbusiness,  but  I think  it  would  have  a very  injurious  effect  upon  hundreds 
iof  factories  in  this  State  who  manufacture  all  classes  of  goods,  in  which 
|the  labor  wage  is  a very  large  item.  Those  companies  would  have  to  go 

1'out  of  business,  or  move  themselves  to  Indiana,  or  some  other  state. 
They  could  not  compete  with  the  Eastern  factories;  and  it  would  put 
10,000  or  20,000  of  these  girls  out  of  work,  and  their  places  would  be  taken 
by  men  or  boys. 

Q.  But  it  wouldn’t  seriously  affect  your  business?  A.  Not  seriously; 
no,  sir,  because  half  of  the  girls  we  would  have  no  use  for  at  all. 

Q.  You  could  get  along  without  them,  could  you?  A.  We  could 
: put  men  in  their  places  at  $12.00. 

Q.  Do  you  think  a man  would  do  more  work  than  a woman?  A. 
Under  some  conditions.  There  are  certain  positions  which  could  be  filled 
I better  by  a woman  than  by  a man,  but,  on  the  other  hand,  there  are 
[plenty  of  positions  that  men  could  fill  as  advantageously,  or  better.  I 
[jjwill  confess  that  I prefer  to  pay  a man  $13.00  or  $14.00,  because  they  can 
1 1 do  125  per  cent  as  much  work  as  a girl,  and  that  would  be  true  of  other 
I establishments  in  the  State,  excepting  certain  classes  of  retail  stores. 

Q.  Are  we  to  understand  that  if  the  minimum  wage  law  is  enacted 
jiin  this  State,  specifying-  $12.00  a week  as  the  minimum  wage,  that  upon 
j;  the  enactment  of  that  law  and  its  going  into  effect,  that  you  would  dis- 
1 charge  a number  of  these  girls  who  you  claim  make  $5.00  or  $6.00  a 
[,week,  and  fill  their  places  with  men?  A.  I think  one-half  of  the  woman 
workers  would  be  out  of  work  within  a year. 

;;  Q.  And  in  your  honest  judgment  that  would  be  the  condition  which 
would  prevail?  A.  I do  think  so,  but  I think  along  natural  laws  this 
j ! revolutionary  change  would  occur. 

Q.  And  the  employer  would  not  show  any  consideration  to  the 
li  women  working  for  him  at  present — I wish  to  change  that  question: 
I';  He  would  not  show  them  any  considerable  degree  of  consideration?  A. 


254  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


1 have  no  doubt  each  and  every  emploj^er  would,  and  the  change  would 
occur,  though,  perhaps,  slowly. 

Q.  Now,  don’t  you  think,  Mr.  Thorne,  if  there  were  in  this  State  a 
minimum  wage  for_^women,  that  that  would  mean  a gradual  increase  in 
wages  for  men,  without  a minimum  wage  being  made  regarding  men’s 
salaries?  A.  Possibly  so. 

Q.  And  wheneyer  that  adjustment  should  take  place,  that  under  the 
readjustment  you  might  find  it  impossible  to  get  men  to  do  for  $12.00  the 
work  of  the  girl,  or  to  take  the  place  of  the  girl?  A.  I do  not  see  why 
the  great  State  of  Illinois  should  ask  a fellow  to  work  for  more  than  i 
$12.00  if  he  can  support  himself  on  $12.00,  and  start  his  life  at  that  price. 

A great  many  do  it,  and  have  done  it,  and  can  live  on  it  w'ell. 

Q.  Unfortunately,  too  many  of  our  men  begin  at  $12.00,  and  the  gray 
hairs  have  come,  and  they  are  still  only  making  $12.00  or  $15.00.  There 
are  exceptions,  but  unfortunately  in  many  cases  that  is  true,  is  it  not? 

A.  If  they  started  at  fifty  or  sixty  that  same  condition  will  prevail;  the 
change  would  occur,  not  simply  because  they  got  $12.00. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Thorne,  I have  exhausted  my  line  of 
questioning,  and,  in  turning  you  over  to  Senator  Juul,  I want  to  thank  you 
for  the  unequivocal  manner  in  which  you  have  answered  my  questions. 
You  have  answered  all  the  questions  frankly  and  to  the  point,  all  that  I 
have  asked  you. 

THE  WITNESS:  I thank  you. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Mr.  Thorne,  do  you  consider  that  the  old  relation  between  master 
and  apprentice,  and  master  and  servant,  exists  today  the  same  as  it  used 
to  when  you  and  I were  boj^s?  A.  I think  that  it  does  not  exist.  I 
think  the  old-time  practices,  of  which  there  were  several  hundred,  have 
been  discarded.  They  do  not  necessarily  prevail  today,  because  they  were 
old-time  practices,  and  the  relations  between  master  and  apprentice  have 
disappeared  with  hundreds  of  other  practices  that  have  disappeared,  and 
which  would  be  laughed  at  today.  Not  necessarily  those  particular  prac- 
tices, but  others. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  the  great  old  practice  that  the  master  held 
himself  liable  for  the  board  and  lodging,  and,  to  a certain  extent,  the 
clothing  of  the  apprentice  during  the  period  of  his  apprenticeship;  do  you 
consider  that  exists  as  a moral  obligation?  A.  No.  That  is  easily 
accounted  for  through  centuries  of  progress.  The3’  have  eliminated  nearly 
all  of  that,  but  possibly  some  are  doing  it  still. 

Q.  But  you  would  sa^-,  to  return  to  those  conditions,  having  in  mind 
the  liberty  of  the  apprentice,  and  the  libertj^  of  t’ne  slave,  and  the  improved 
conditions  all  around,  instead  of  improving  the  condition  of  the  apprentice, 
it  is  turning  the  clock  backward  for  him?  A.  I wouldn’t  saj-  that  at  all. 

Q.  You  stated  to  Mr.  O’Hara  that  j-ou  have  233  people  that  you  saj’ 
are  in  the  apprentice  class;  j’ou  stated  To  Mr.  O’Hara  that  you  paid  them 
an  average  weekly  wage  of  $5;  is  that  correct?  A.  Correct. 

Q.  Now,  then,  you  stated  further  to  !Mr.  O’Hara  that  j-ou  believed 
that  the  lowest  figure  that  a j'oung  woman  could  live  on  was  $8.00;  j-ou 
have  shown  here  a deficit  of  $3.00  that  has  got  to  be  made  up  from  some- 
where. Now,  under  the  old  condition  of  master  and  apprentice,  that 
deficit  did  not  exist.  Instead  of  having  bettered  the  condition  of  the  ap- 
prentices, from  what  it  was  some  twenty  or  thirty  or  forty  j-ears  ago,  we 
have  evidently  crawled  backward  to  the  tune  of  $2.00  or  $3.00  in  the  lowest 
class  of  apprenticeship?  A.  I think  we  have  taken  a step  forward. 

Q.  In  what  manner?  A.  In  the  olden  days  the  apprentices  bound 
themselves  for  a period  of  3^ears,  and  today  everyone  is  a free  agent.  They 
can  leave  next  week  or  the  week  after,  and  the3'  do.  The  average  length 
of  the  employment  of  our  women,  the  women  in  our  establishment,  is 
less  than  two  or  two  and  a half  3-ears. 

Q.  Until  they  reach  $8.00?  A.  It  is  not  a matter  of  the  wages  onh- 

Q.  I ought  to  have  stated  to  you  that  this  entire  wage  matter _came 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


255 


about  in  this  way.  The  hearings  went  along  for  two  or  three  weeks,  and 
witness  after  witness  testified,  and  your  woman  witnesses  testified  almost 
invariably  that  they  had A.  I heard  their  testimony. 

Q.  had  gone  wrong,  owing  to  the  fact  that  for  a period  of  time 

while  working,  they  did  not  get  living  wages.  A.  I heard  the  testimony, 
and  I do  not  believe  all  of  it. 

Q.  They  were  here  and  told  us.  A.  I do  not  believe  they  told 
it  all. 

Q.  We  are  sitting  up  here  now,  Mr.  Thorne,  and  we  want  to  be 
polite.  We  ought  to  believe  these  people  when  they  appeared  here  and 
testified  under  oath.  Now,  the  situation  is  this:  There  is  in  the  233 
class.  Class  A,  I will  call  it,  a deficit  of  $3.00  that  has  got  to  be  made  up. 
A.  I do  not  agree  with  you.  I don’t  think  it  has  to  be  made  up.  We  are 
assisting  a family  $5.00  worth  that  they  did  not  have  before. 

Q.  You  are  assisting  a family?  A.  This  girl  is  assisting  her  family 
to  the  extent  of  $5.00  a week.  Before  that  she  did  not  do  it  because  she 
was  in  school.  None  of  these  girls  has  been  with  us  three  months. 

Q.  Not  with  you?  A.  They  are  all  young  girls  who  recently  came 
to  us. 


Q.  Before  she  got  in  the  position  where  she  gets  $5.00  a week  with 
you,  she  wasn’t  tendering  anybody  her  services.  Are  those  services  worth 
$5.00  to  you?  A.  Just  about.  That  is  the  reason  why  we  pay  $5.00  in  my 
judgment. 

Q.  That  is  your  judgment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  after  what  you  told  Mr.  O’Hara,  after  you  have 
laid  aside  $2,300,000,  you  are  treating  these  1,140  girls  fairly?  A.  I claim 
no  relation  between  those  two  figures  at  all. 

Q.  And  why?  A.  Because  no  one  establishment  can  be  singled 
out.  You  have  got  to  take  the  mass,  the  aggregate. 

Q.  That  is  correct.  A.  And  if  you  gentlemen,  in  your  desire  to 
have  a minimum  wage  law,  raise  it  too  high  in  accomplishing  your  object, 
you  are  going  to  hurt  a good  many  factories,  because  we  cannot  compete 
with  the  Eastern  factories. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Committee  - has  not  declared  itself  for  a 
minimum  wage  law,  nor  has  it  fixed  the  amount. 

THE  WITNESS:  I gathered  you  had,  for  something  I heard  along 
••'that  line. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  we  are  trying  to  do  is:  we  are  trying  to 
inquire  into  whether  the  minimum  wage  now  paid  in  the  communities 
that  we  propose  to  visit  in  this  State,  if  that  minimum  wage  has  any 
bearing  at  all  on  vice.  A.  I would  be  very  glad  to  know  myself. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  a young  woman  who  gets  $5.00  a week  is 
properly  fortified  against  the  temptations  to  be  met  with  in  a great  city 
ilike  this?  A.  Regarding  the  deficit  to  the  amount  of  $3.00,  I do  not 
iadmit  that  argument  at  all. 

Q.  Suppose  a young  woman  comes  out  of  a home,  with  a father 
who  is  barely  able  to  support  the  family,  and  you  are  taking  the  full  time 
of  this  young  woman,  don’t  you  feel  a moral  and  legal  obligation  for  you 
to  pay  her  for  that  week’s  work  so  as  to  relieve  a part  of  the  burden 
from  somebody  else,  either  the  father  or  the  mother?  A.  Three  months 
ago  the  girl  was  not  in  the  store.  Has  he  turned  her  loose  on  the  world 
because  she  is  working  somewhere  at  the  family’s  request? 


! Q.  Would  you  employ  her  if  you  could  not  employ  her  and  make  a 
jprofit  on  it?  Let  us  get  together.  Is  there  any  charity  in  the  transaction? 
lA.  No,  and  I do  not  understand  how  there  could  be. 

Q.  It  is  a question  of  dollars  and  cents.  If  you  take  the  time  of  a 
young  woman,  all  of  her  time,  doesn’t  it  strike  you,  coming  back  to  the 
Sold  proposition  of  master  and  servant,  or  master  and  apprentice,  that  if 

I the  services  are  worth  anything  at  all,  they  are  worth  food,  shelter,  and 
the  necessary  raiment  so  that  she  shall  be  presentable  in  your  business? 
A.  I wHl  say  this,  if  the  findings  of  this  Committee  develop  the  fact  that 
iny  minimum  wage  is  too  low,  and  we  are  wrong  in  our  judgment,  we 


256  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


will  raise  it  to  whatever  is  right,  whatever  your  findings  show  is  right  we 
will  do. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  right?  A.  I think  our  schedule  is  all 
right.  I have  no  opinion  other  than  my  own  opinion  and  my  observations. 
I cannot  get  any  opinion,  and  the  people  I have  talked  with  are  in  the 
same  boat  with  myself.  There  are  plenty  of  people  who  have  given  their 
life  to  this  study,  such  as  social  settlement  w'orkers  and  welfare  people.  I 
am  going  to  ask  them.  Their  knowledge,  knowledge  that  they  have,  will 
be  important  to  you  people.  The  knowledge  1 get  is  my  own  personal 
opinion,  based  on  observation  and  some  little  experience,  but  not  much. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  think  there  is  a moral  obligation  on  the  manufac- 
turer, or  the  employer,  to  pay  a wage  that,  irrespective  of  outside  aid, 
would  enable  women  to  go  to  your  store  and  work  for  you?  A.  I think 
there  is  a moral  obligation,  and  we  carry  it  out,  too. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  there  is  a moral  obligation  in  paying  each  and  every 
one  of  these  young  people,  the  233  in  the  $5  class,  and  the  572  in  the  $6.00 
class,  and  the  373  in  the  $7.00  class,  or  in  the  event  that  the  sum  of  money, 
whatever  it  is  that  is  paid  to  them  on  Saturday  night,  when  they  get  through 
their  work,  don’t  you  think  there  is  moral  obligation  enough  on  you  to  give 
them  a little  more  than  just  enough  to  live  on?  A.  Yes,  if  they  get  no 
aid  on  the  outside.  That  is  another  thing.  That  is  a totally  different 
thing  to  the  girl  that  lives  at  home.  I agree  with  you  at  every  step. 

Q.  We  won’t  quarrel  now.  Have  you  any  system  of  fines  in  your 
establishment?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  None  at  all?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  take  any  part  of  the  salary  for  medical  services  in  any 
way?  A.  We  furnish  that  all  free. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  figure  what  amount  it  would  take  to  bring  all  the 
female  employes  of  your  business  up  to  self-supporting  basis?  A.  We 
claim  they  are  all  on  a self-supporting  basis  at  the  present  time,  and  if 
there  is  any  case  we  do  not  know  about,  and  we  find  it^out,  we  will  put  it 
on  a self-supporting  basis  within  an  hour. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  the  $5.00,  $6.00  and  $7.00  girls  are  self-supporting 
now?  A.  1 consider  that  they  are  required  to  be  self-supporting  for  the 
reason  that  they  live  at  home  and  contribute  to  the  support  of  the  home 
life.  They  are  an  advantage  instead  of  a hindrance. 

Q.  Irrespective  of  what  the  father  or  mother  may  be  earning?  A. 
Not  necessarily  irrespective  of  that,  but  the  moment  an  exceptional  case 
develops  that  requires  special  treatment,  we  will  attend  to  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  opportunity  of  finding  out  what  the  earnings  of  the 
fathers  are  of  those  1,143  girls?  A.  I have  not  of  my  own  knowledge.  I 
have  no  doubt  that  in  individual  cases  it  could  be  found  out. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  you  could  not  take  a young  woman  of  your 
acquaintance,  and  put  her  out  in  the  world,  and  have  her  purchase  what 
is  necessary  to  exist  for  the  amount  of  money  that  you  give  to  some  of 
these  girls?  A.  Which  amount  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Take  any  one  of  the  three  lowest  amounts?  A.  If  she  lives  at 
home? 

Q.  She  tenders  you  her  services,  does  she  not?  A.  She  ma3"  work 
around  the  house,  washing  dishes  or  doing  the  ironing. 

Q.  That  is  not  the  point.  A.  It  is  the  point. 

Q.  She  may  or  she  may  not.  How  long  does  she  work  for  j-ou? 
A.  She  works  seven  hours  and  fifty  minutes. 

Q.  And  you  consider  that  for  that  seven  hours  and  fifty  minutes  she 
is  not  entitled  to  food,  clothing  and  shoes,  and  the  necessarj-  car  fare?  A. 
She  has  all  of  those  things,  and  she  gets  them. 

Q.  She  gets  them  from  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Out  of  the  $5.00?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  I would  like  you  to  figure  that  up  for  this  Committee.  A.  She 
lives  at  home,  and  has  boarding  and  lodging  free. 


[ Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  257 

! Q.  If  she  has  some  place,  all  right,  but  if  she  has  not  any  place,  then 
jwhat?  A.  You  are  trying  to  turn  the  girl  loose  on  the  world. 

I Q.  We  are  trying  to  turn  her  loose  on  you.  A.  I won’t  take  her. 

I Q.  You  won’t  take  her?  A.  No,  I am  only  looking  for  a girl  that 

[lives  at  home  under  those  circumstances. 

I Q.  Those  women  in  the  three  lower  classes,  you  advance  those  girls 
from  time  to  time,  as  they  show  ability?  A.  Certainly. 

; SENATOR  JUUL:  Well,  that  is  all. 

I THE  WITNESS:  A woman  qualified  to  do  better  things,  we  hire 
her  at  a higher  wage. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Well,  I am  glad  there  isn’t  any  sentiment  in  the 
matter. 

THE  WITNESS;  There  is  a great  deal  of  sentiment  in  it. 
SENATOR  JUUL:  There  isn’t  any  sentiment  in  those  three  proposi- 
tions. I am  trying  to  have,  you  show  if  a girl  would  get  what  I call  the 
.deficit,  or  the  missing  amount  elsewhere,  the  amount  that  you  do  not 
i'supply,  would  you  say  that  as  a matter  of  law  or  of  right,  the  girl  isn’t 
:i entitled  to  it,  because  forsooth  she  has  a home? 

THE  WITNESS;  I do  not  consider  that  a deficit;  I consider  that 
ian  advantage. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Thorne,  if  you  lived  on  it,  you  would  con- 
sider it  a deficit  mighty  quick. 

THE  WITNESS:  If  I had  my  board  and  room  paid  for? 
SENATOR  JUUL:  If  your  father  happened  to  be  out  of  a job  and 
you  were  a girl. 

THE  WITNESS;  I claim  the  girl  that  lives  at  home,  and  who  has 
I been  supported,  I do  not  see  any  reason  to  change  that  condition.  If  the 
girl  goes  to  work  and  brings  in  $5.00  that  the  girl  didn’t  have  before,  I 
don’t  see  how  that  is  a disadvantage.  If  I am  wrong,  I will  be  glad  to 
■ change  it.  By  reason  of  a precedent  established  a long  time  ago,  we  have 
set  it  at  $5.00  as  being  the  minimum,  and  it  seems  to  be  the  generally 
I prevailing  custom  that  it  should  be  the  maximum  for  a girl  who  lives  at 
home.  That  lets  her  buy  her  clothes,  and  after  that,  there  is  a little 
change  left  for  amusement. 

I Q.  Your  $5.00  enables  her  to  buy  her  clothes,  and  it  leaves  some- 

i thing  over  for  amusement?  A.  She  contributes  to  the  household  ex- 
j penses  out  of  what  she  earns,  and  what  she  can  spare  the  family  she  gives 
I them. 

* Q.  You  do  not  figure  for  this  class  of  372  girls  that  there  are  any. 
^ obligations,  moral  or  legal,  no  the  part  of  your  company  to  pay  such  an 

ii  amount  of  money,  or  sum  of  money,  as  would  enable  that  girl  tomorrow 
to  pay  her  own  way  in  case  her  father  falls  down  and  doesn’t  do  it?  A. 
Oh,  yes;  we  would  increase  her,  and  we  would  be  glad  to  pay  her  $8.00  at 

" once,  if  she  has  no  other  way.  No  one  can  serve  us  in  these  days,  and 
" serve  us  right,  and  be  underfed,  or  be  sick,  or  be  in  need;  they  cannot  be 
ijj  in  our  employ  if  we  know  it,  because  we  are  anxious  to  help  them,  and  we 
|ij  spend  more  money  for  that  subject  than  any  other  institution  in  the  State 
;lof  Illinois,  I know;  and  if  that  is  not  an  admission  of  moral  obligation,  I 
II  can’t  say  what  is. 

i-  Q.  Do  you  think  your  firm  would  seriously  object  to  placing  all  the 

I four  classes  of  girls  we  have  been  discussing  in  a position  where,  without 
any  other  support,  they  might  become  self-supporting  women?  Do  you 
think  that  it  would  seriously  interfere  with  the  earning  capacity  of  your 
; establishment?  A.  I do  not  think  it  is  a question  of  dollars  and  cents. 

I Q.  That  is  the  stand  I am  taking.  A.  Of  course,  it  would  not.  It 

I wouldn’t  make  any  great  difference  in  any  way. 

Q.  Let  me  tell  you,  Mr.  Thorne,  I am  willing,  for  the  sake  of  the 
argument,  to  admit  that  the  scope  of  any  investigation  of  this  kind  runs 
across  absolute  legal  lines  of  evidence.  While  a lot  of  things  that  you 
say  wouldn’t  be  permitted,  yet  a whole  lot  of  the  questions  I ask  wouldn’t 
be  permitted  either,  but  this  is  what  this  Cornmittee  is  setting  for.  A.  I 
will  be  glad  to  help  you  to  the  best  of  my  ability. 


258  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  The  sooner  we  come  together  the  better  off  we  are?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  is  a condition  prevalent  in  the  community,  and  a feeling  in 
particular,  that  people  are  grievously  underpaid,  and  particularly  women, 
numbers  of  young  women  and  young  girls,  and  we  are  trying  to  get  at 
what  is  wrong;  not  only  trying  to  get  at  what  is  wrong,  but  we  have  been 
told  from  day  to  day  that  if  girl  A,  B or  C goes  wrong,  that  it  is  because 
they  needed  just  a few  dollars  more,  and  they  tell  us  that  if  they  had  been 
in  a position  where  they  wouldn’t  have  had  to  go  out  and  somehow  get 
hold  of  the  two  or  three  or  four  missing  dollars,  they  wouldn’t  have  gone 
astray;  and  hOw  far  that  is  true  we  do  not  know,  but  it  is  in  the  record, 
and  has  been  received  under  oath,  and  what  we  are  trying  to  do  is  to  come 
together  with  you  gentlemen  and  have  you  suggest  the  remedy,  because 
you  are  the  big  men,  the  big  employers  of  labor,  and  because  we  haven’t 
any  other  people  to  go  to,  and  if  we  all  come  together  on  it  in  a friendly 
way,  the  wrong  can  be  righted.  A.  I believe  it.  What  we  are  after  is 
information. 

Q.  But  when  you  are  down  in  the  $4.00  or  $5.00  or  $6.00  schedule, 
Mr.  Thorne,  you  need  the  strong  hand  of  the  State,  and  the  kind  ear  of 
the  men  that  control  the  big  finances  of  this  community;  you  need  that, 
and  it  is  because  you  are  competent  that  we  have  you  in  here.  If  anything 
is  said  that  don’t  sound  just  right,  why,  we  can’t  help  that;  still  we  should 
come  together  and  see  what  can  be  done.  Fathers  we  know  ought  to 
carry  the  burden,  but  we  know  that  oftentimes  fathers  do  not  carry  the 
burden,  and  we  know  that  a girl  who  is  sixteen  or  seventeen  years  of  age, 
and  who  stops  at  home,  has  to  help  out.  One  girl  we  had  here  told  us  of 
her  work  in  a shoe  factory.  She  got  $3.00  a week,  and  she  went  to  the 
devil  on  it,  and  went  there  fast.  How  many  of  those  are  going  to  the 
devil?  A.  If,  as  I stated  before,  the  final  results  of  your  investigation 
show  that  there  is  a direct  relation  between  low  wages  and  vice,  and  there 
is  anything  we  can  do,  I assure  you  we  will  be  glad  to  help  all  we  can. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Yes,  surely.  ' 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  will  establish  an  $8.00  minimum  wage?  A. 
I don’t  know  about  that. 

Q.  Consider  it  and  let  us  know.  A.  I don’t  know  that  we  have 
investigated  that,  as  yet. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  said  you  had  a list  a while  ago,  of  what 
it  would  take  for  a woman  to  live  on?  A.  I have  four  specimen  tables 
here,  if  you  would  like  them. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  would  like  to  have  those  tables. 

THE  WITNESS:  Girl  A receives  $8.00  per  week;  pa3'S  for  her  room 
$3.00;  breakfast,  coffee  and  rolls,  40  cents.  I don’t  know  how  she  does  it. 
Lunches,  90  cents. 

Q.  All  through  the  week?  A.  She  can  get  a lunch  for  15  cents  in 
our  establishment.  It  costs  us  20  cents,  and  she  gets  it  at  15  cents. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I don’t  know,  the  Northwestern  Road  give  a 
luncheon  for  nothing,  and  their  emploj-es,  as  a rule,  kick  against  it. 

THE  WITNESS:  Car  fare,  60  cents;  leaving  $1.75  remainder. 

SENATOR  JUL^L:  May  I see  that  list.  I want  to  see  what  is 
missing. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Laundry,  isn’t  it? 

THE  WITNESS:  Don’t  seem  to  be.  She  calls  it  “sundries.'”  That 
is  the  way  she  answered  the  question. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  does  it  add  up?  A.  It  adds  up  to 
$6.25. 

Q.  With  what  wage?  A.  Eight  dollars. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Anything  for  board?  A.  She  has  accounted  for 
the  meals  and  room. 

Q.  How  much  is  the  room?  A.  Three  dollars  a week  for  the  room. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  much  is  estimated  for  clothing?  A.  I 
did  not  estimate  that.  I never  bought  anything  of  that  kind  myself. 

Q.  Haven’t  any  idea  what  it  would  cost?  A.  I haven’t  the  slightest 
idea  what  a woman’s  clothes  cost. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


259 


< Q.  She  gets  her  clothing  out  of  the  $1.75?  A.  Out  of  the  $1.75. 

j Q.  And  laundry  bills?  A.  After  working  at  $8.00  a week,  she  prob- 
Ibly  gets  $9.00  a week  as  soon  as  she  is  able,  or  sufficiently  skilled.  The 
f.ctual  length  of  service  is  two  and  a half  years,  but  in  most  instances 
jhey  get  married  and  move  away,  and  other  things  happen. 

Q.  Do  they  marry  as  a matter  of  necessity?  A.  I think  there  are  a 
^ood  many  reasons  in  one  place  and  another,  for  that. 

t Q.  What  is  the  next?  A.  A girl  at  $8.00  a week.  Girl  B.  Rooms 
|nd  boards  with  her  sister.  PayS'  $3.50,  room,  board  and  laundry  are 
bcluded.  She  has  no  other  expenses  than  that,  except  car  fare,  $1  a 
kreek.  She  lives  out  in  the  country  somewhere  and  has  to  pay  two  fares, 
insurance,  24  cents;  making  $4.74,  leaving  $3.26. 

; SENATOR  JUUL:  For  what?  A.  Clothing  and  shoes. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  don’t  know  what  the  clothing  would 
;ost?  A.  I don’t  know.  You  can  spend  as  much  as  you  like  on  it. 
lA^hat  the  minimum  is,  is  the  question  involved,  and  I don’t  know  what  it 
s.  That  I assume  is  contained  in  these  figures,  because  it  is  being  done. 

! SENATOR  JUUL:  The  figures  are  not  being  given  in  detail,  and 
-It  is  hard  to  check  them  up?  A.  Here  is  a girl,  $8.00  a week.  Girl  C. 
■pays  room,  board,  including  noon  lunches,  bringing  them  with  her,  $3.50. 
poes  her  own  laundry  at  an  expense  of  20  cents  a week.  How  that  is 
:^one,  I don’t  know. 

[ SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Room  and  board,  $3.50?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Don’t  know  what  kind  of  a room  she  has?  A.  I do  not. 

Q.  Don’t  know  what  kind  of  board  she  has?  A.  I don’t  know  any- 
thing about  it.  She  walks  on  pleasant  days,  and  her  car  fare  only  averages 
|5  cents.  She  puts  25  cents  in  the  savings  bank  every  week,  the  rest  goes 
tor  clothes,  dress,  sundries,  $3.80. 

Q.  Three  dollars  and  eighty  cents,  she  takes  that  for  her  living?  A. 

pes. 

I Q.  And  saves  25  cents  a week?  A.  Yes. 

I SENATOR  TOSSEY:  That  is  $13.00  a year. 

[ Q.  You  have  another  list  there?  A.  Yes,  one  other  girl.  Girl  D. 
[Room,  board,  laundry  and  noon  lunch,  $4.00.  Insurance,  21  cents.  She 
ives  nearby  and  walks.  Her  clothes  and  other  incidentals  are  put  at  $3.79. 

I SENATOR  JUUL:  Figured  on  a basis  of  $8.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

1 SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  say  you  have  573  employes  that  live  on 
. J6.00  a week,  or  to  whom  you  pay  $6.00?  A.  These  girls  all  live  at 
i lome.  These  are  the  self-supporting  cases. 

Q.  How  long  do  you  keep  them  in  your  employ?  A.  You  mean 
1 It  $8.00? 

i Q.  Yes,  how  long  do  you  keep  them  in  your  employ  at  $6.00?  They 
;';seem  to  be  turned  out — are  they  either  turned  off  or  do  they  quit  before 
; ihey  get  to  that  point?  A.  They  are  moved  on  up  within  a year  to 
>7.00,  and  most  of  them  to  $8.00. 

li  Q.  I have  373  at  $7.00,  is  that  right?  A.  Three  hundred  and  seventy- 
I'hree  at  $7.00. 

,Q.  Three  hundred  and  ten  at  $8.00?  A.  Three  hundred  and  six- 
een  at  $8.00. 

Q.  So  the  majority  drop  out  before  they  get  to  $8.00?  A.  A good 
nany  of  them  do,  and  their  places  are  filled  from  below  all  the  time. 

: Q.  It  shows  that  a great  majority  of  them  quit  before  they  get  to 
[>8.00.  A.  There  must  be  at  least  800  a year  that  quit,  because  the  whole 
[itaff  changes  in  numerical  number  every  half  year. 

Q.  Either  quit  or  get  discharged,  one  or  the  other?  A.  Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Any  further  questions.  Senator  Tossey? 

; SENATOR  TOSSEY:  No. 

» THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Beall. 

' SENATOR  BEALL:  I guess  not. 


260  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  will  be  all.  You  are  excused,  subject  to 
our  call. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr.’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  T.  PIRIE,  JR.,  a witness,  called  by  the  Commission,  having 
been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Dry  goods  business. 

Q.  And  with  what  corporation  or  company  are  you  connected?  A. 
Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Company. 

Q.  What  position  do  you  hold?  A.  We  have  no  official  positions; 
we  are  a co-partnership. 

Q.  You  are  one  of  the  partners?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  as  such,  are  you  acquainted  with  the  wages  paid  your  woman 
workers?  A.  Reasonably  well.  If  I haven’t  anything  you  want,  I can 
get  it  for  you. 

Q.  You  have  it  in  your  power  to  employ  and  discharge  employes? 
A.  Yes,  but  I have  never  exercised  it. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ  at  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Com- 
pany? A.  We  have  2,004. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  any  woman  employed  by  your  co-partner- 
ship is  paid?  A.  You  refer  now  to  the  women  who  work  the  regular 
hours  of  the  store,  I take  it? 

Q.  No,  Mr.  Pirie,  let  us  get  at  this:  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid 
any  woman  worker  there,  regardless  of  the  hours  or  terms  of  her  employ- 
ment? A.  I haven’t  it  here,  but  I think  it  is  from  $4.00  to  $7.00  a week, 
and  including  two  meals  a day.  Not  including,  but  additional  to  that. 
They  get  their  board. 

Q.  What  I want  to  get  from  you,  Mr.  Pirie,  is  this:  The  one  woman, 

what  is  she  paid,  the  one  woman  who  is  getting  the  lowest  amount  of 

money?  A.  Those  are  our  errand  girls. 

Q.  And  how  much  are  they  getting?  A.  Four  dollars. 

Q.  In  other  words,  $4.00  is  the  lowest  amount  paid  to  anj^  woman? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  of  those,  Mr.  Pirie,  are  there?  A.  Fortj’-six. 

Q.  You  have  forty-six  in  the  $4.00  class?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then,  with  the  exception  of  those  forty-six  who  are  getting  $4.00 
a week,  have  you  women  who  are  getting  more  than  $4.00  a week?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  the  next  class,  Mr.  Pirie?  A.  Four  dollars  and 
fifty  cents. 

Q.  And  how  many  are  in  that  class?  A.  Twenty-six. 

Q.  The  next  class,  please?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  And  in  that  class  how  many?  A.  Seventy-two. 

Q.  And  the  next  class?  A.  Five  dollars  and  fifty  cents  is  next,  620 
people.  Six  dollars,  with  seventy-nine  people;  $6.50,  nine  people;  $7.00,  187 
people.  Do  you  want  me  to  go  right  on  up? 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  a living  wage  for  a woman  worker?  A. 
To  be  quite  self-supporting,  $8.00. 

Q.  Let  us  continue  to  the  bread  line?  A.  Did  I give  you  $7.00? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  didn’t  give  the  $7.50  at  all. 

THE  WITNESS:  $7.50,  28  people;  $8.00,  249  people.  Do  you  want  me 
to  tell  you  about  the  others? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  is  all  for  the  time  being  in  that  regard, 
Mr.  Pirie.  A.  The  average  is  $11.30. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


261 


' SENATOR  JUUL;  The  average  of  all  female  employes?  A.  Yes, 

J |ll.30. 

t ! THE  CHAIRMAN:  Now,  in  arriving  at  that  average,  what  is  the 
J [lighest  salary  paid  to  any  woman  whose  wages  are  included  in  the  list  you 
rave  given  us?  A.  I would  like  to  show  you  the  pay  roll.  I wouldn’t 
1 like  to  answer  the  questions  publicly;  they  are  pretty  high  wages. 

I SENATOR  JUUL:  So  many  that  they  affect  the  general  average?  A. 
( lYo,  very  slightly.  Out  of  the  2,004,  there  are  but  three  or  four. 

[ THE  CHAIRMAN:  Let  us  get  at  it  in  another  way:  Eliminate  now 
C |:he  heads  of  departments,  the  buyers  and  the  women  that  are  high  salaried, 
I ind  eliminating  them  completely,  what  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  woman 
I vorkers  in  your  department?  A.  Eliminating  only  the  buyers? 

} I Q.  No,  eliminate  the  department  heads,  your  buyers,  and  your  higher 

i salaried  women,  the  woman  who  is  given  a salary,  instead  of  a wage.  A.  I 
vould  have  to  get  you  that  exactbu  it  is  about  $10.00. 

Q.  About  $10.00?  A.  I will  get  it  for  you  exactly,  if  you  like. 

I Q.  You  haven’t  it  here?  A.  No,  I haven’t  it  here, 

i Q.  You  think  $10.00  is  approximately  correct,  do  you?  A.  Yes.  I 
j fan  stop  at  any  figure  you  like.  Where  do  you  want  me  to  stop,  $20.00? 

I Q.  No,  we  want  to  discuss  for  the  time  being  the  girls  below  the  bread 
. ine.  A.  Yes,  all  right. 

I Q.  Now  you  have  here  four  or  five  hundred  women  below  the  bread 

f ine?  A.  Yes. 

[ Q.  Below  the  $8.00  line?  A.  Yes. 

j j Q.  What  is  the  average  age  of  the  women  below  the  bread  line,  and 

I yrou  won’t  take  offense  at  that  term?  A.  No,  I won’t  take  offense.  I am 
! acre  to  work  with  you. 

1 Q-  What  is  the  average  age  of  the  women  below  the  bread  line?  A.  I 
I lon’t  knowq  I will  get  it  for  you. 

j I Q.  Are  they  mostly  girls?  A.  Yes,  very  young  girls.  I should  say 
I 17,  and  below  that,  but  that  is  not  exact.  That  is  a guess.  I will  get  you 
diat  information. 

Q.  You  can  get  it  when,  Mr.  Pirie?  A.  Oh,  in  two  or  three,  days.  I 
will  send  it  to  you  or  bring  it  to  you. 

I Q.  Well,  Mr.  Pirie,  of  your  own  knowledge,  do  you  know  of  any  wo- 
man who  has  been  in  your  employ  for  a period  of  years,  anywhere  from 
Lwo  years  to  five  years,  who  is  still  below  the  bread  line?  A.  Below  $8.00? 
Q.  Belowr  $8.00,  yes.  A.  No,  sir. 

‘ Q.  You  know  of  none?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  believe  that  you  have  none  such  in  your  employ?  A.  Now, 
[he  question  is:  Been  in  our  employ  how  long? 

1 Q.  Anywhere  from  two  to  five  years,  or  over  two  years?  A.  I think 
there  are  a few  who  have  been  in  the  employ  over  two  years,  and  who  get 
:ess  than  $8.00.  Yes,  I know  there  are  a few. 

Q.  Are  there  any  who  have  been  in  your  employ  five  years  and  over, 
who  are  still  below  $8.00?  A.  I think  not. 

Q.  You  are  not  definitely  informed  on  that  matter,  though?  A.  No. 
Q.  Now,  Mr.  Pirie,  w'hat  do  you  think  about  the  matter  of  low  wages, 
ind  the  moral  standard  among  women,  is  there  any  connection  in  your 
i'udgment?  A.  I think  there  is  a very  slight  connection. 

Q.  Very  slight,  but  there  is  a connection?  A.  Yes,  small. 

[ Q.  And  as  an  employer,  a large  employer  of  women,  do  you  feel  the 
jltnoral  responsibility?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  conscience  would  hurt  you  if  you  knew  that  any  girl  working 
|l(or  your  firm,  had  fallen  because  she  wasn’t  getting  enough  to  live  upon? 
Ip.  It  would. 

Q.  Mr.  Pirie,  what  were  the  net  profits  of  your  firm  during  the  last 
iscal  year?  A.  I refuse  to  answer  that  until  I have  had  advice  of  counsel. 


262  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Would  you  say  approximately  that  your  company  made  over 
$1,000,000?  A.  I refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  same  grounds,  and  for  the 
same  reasons. 

Q.  Suppose,  Mr.  Pirie,  you  were  to  increase  the  wages  of  your  woman 
workers,  so  that  all  of  those  four  or  five  hundred  women  who  are  now  get- 
ting less  than  $8.00  a week,  would  get  a living  out  of  it,  that  is,  get  $8.00 
a week,  would  it  seriously  impair  your  business?  A.  I have  never  figured 
it. 

Q.  Suppose,  Mr.  Pirie,  the  State  of  Illinois  were  to  establish  $12.00 
a week  as  a minimum  wage  for  women  workers,  would  the  firm  of  Carson, 
Pirie,  Scott  & Company  go  into  bankruptcy?  A.  I am  not  prepared  to 
answer  that.  That  is  a very  difficult  question  to  answer. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  would  it  be  a hard  matter  for  the  firm  of  Car- 
son,  Pirie,  Scott  & Company  to  get  along?  A.  I don’t  know.  The  effects 
of  a minimum  wage  might  be  far  reaching;  I am  not  prepared  to  give  you 
a definite  reply. 

. Q.  Then  suppose,  Mr.  Pirie,  that  out  of  the  net  profits  made  by  Car- 
son,  Pirie,  Scott  & Company  during  the  last  fiscal  year,  you  were  to  take 
an  amount  sufficient  to  have  paid  all  your  women  employes,  getting  less 
than  $12.00  a week,  at  least  $12.00,  would  there  still  have  been  left  enough 
profits  out  of  your  business  to  make  it  a profitable  business  to  be  engaged 
in?  A.  Yes,  there  would  have  been  some  profit. 

Q.  And  with  that  profit  would  you  have  been  satisfied  to  continue 
doing  business  during  the  present  fiscal  year?  A.  I haven’t  figured  it 
out.  Governor.  I don’t  know  what  it  would  have  been.  I don’t  know  that 
I would  like  to  answer  that  definitely. 

Q.  You  are  acquainted,  Mr.  Pirie,  with  the  profits  made  by  jmur 
co-partnership  during  the  last  fiscal  year,  are  you  not?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  them  pretty  well  in  mind  now?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  yet  you  are  unable  to  answer  this  question  on  the  spur  of 
the  moment?  A.  Yes,  because  1 could  not  answer  that  and  the  other 
partners’  questions.  That  wasn’t  discussed  among  ourselves. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Pirie,  I am  personally  unwilling  to  continue  the  exami- 
nation of  any  witness  who  refuses  to  make  public  the  profits  made  by  his 
business,,  and,  that  being  my  position,  I feel  I must  refrain  from  asking 
you  any  more  questions,  and  will  turn  you  over  to  Senator  Juul.  I under- 
stand it  is  a legal  question. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I was  busy  on  another  proposition,  and  for  the 
moment  did  not  hear  what  happened. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  have  failed  to  elicit  from  Mr.  Pirie  the 
amount  of  profit  made  by  his  firm  the  last  year,  and  also  whether  his  firm 
can  efford  to  pay  a $12.00  a week  minimum. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  many  female  emploj-es  have  you?  A. 
Two  thousand  and  four. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  are  under  $8.00?  A.  I can  give  you  the 
schedule  there. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Four  hundred  and  eighty-seven  is  what  your 
answer  figures.  A.  That  is  approximately  right. 

Q.  You  could  put  these  women  on  $12.00  a week,  and  j'et  have  a fair 
profit  on  your  investment?  A.  In  good  years? 

Q.  Well,  take  last  year  as  a basis.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  You  understand,  kir.  Pirie,  that  we  would  like  you  to  go  awav 
from  here  with  the  idea  that  this  is  a broad-minded  Committee?  A.  1 
have  that  idea  now. 

Q.  In  your  examination  here  by  the  Lieutenant  Governor  you  clashed 
on  the  proposition  of  earnings?  A.  Yes,  sir;  but  we  did  not  clash. 

Q.  Your  minds  clashed?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  can  be  the  real  objection  in  stating  3-our  earnings. 


3 

I Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  263 

I 

'when  all  the  State  is  after  is  to  find  out  the  method  by  which  a number 
iof  employes,  a number  of  citizens,  if  you  please,  of  this  State,  are  living 
ibelow  what  the  Governor  here  calls  the  “bread  line.”_  What  can  be  the 
'objection;  what  can  be  the  possible  theory  upon  which  you  object?  A. 
iWe  think  that  when  we  reply  to  you  that  the  difference  as  outlined  by 
iSenator  Tossey  would  not  materially  affect  our  profits  for  last  year  that 
|that  is  sufficient  for  this  purpose,  and  that  the  rest  is  not  necessary. 

j;  Q.  Then  you  practically  ' state  you  can  lift  the  entire  number  of 
iemployes  from  below  the  “bread  line’’  up  to  and  beyond  it  without  any 
■material  Injury  to  your  firm?  A.  Eight  dollars  a week? 

I Q.  I didn’t  say  $8.00  a week.  A.  What  do  you  mean;  what  list  do 
you  mean? 

1 Q.  I will  ask  you  another  question:  What  do  you  consider  is  the 
'wages  a young  woman  in  your  employ  can  live  on?  A.  Eight  dollars. 

I Q.  Would  there  be  anything  left  for  amusements?  A.  There  would 
'be  a little. 

Q.  There  would  be  a little  for  pleasure  in  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  figure  they  could  do  it  with  $8.00?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  haven’t  figured  what  it  would  take  to  lift  this  nutuber  of 
employes  up  to  that  condition?  A.  Not  exactly. 

Q.  Will  you  say  that,  as  far  as  you  know,  that  your  firm  would  be 
willing  to  do  that  without  legislation  being  enacted  on  this  subject?  A. 

• I wouldn’t  like  to  answer  that  question  without  consultation  and  advice 
iof  counsel. 

} . 

' Q.  How  do  you  feel  yourself  on  the  proposition?  A.  In  other  words, 
i Senator,  you  want  to  ask  me  if  I would  favor  a minimum  wage,  is  that  it? 
Ts  that  what  you  mean? 

j Q.  That  isn’t  exactly  it.  What  I have  been  trying  to  get  out  of  you 
gentlemen,  that  are  situated  as  you  are,  is  to  find  out  if  you  do  not  feel  a 
[moral  responsibility;  if  you  do  not  feel  a legal  one  for  the  woman  who 
[enter  your  service?  A.  We  do  feel  the  responsibility. 

iQ.  You  should  be  responsible,  irrespective  of  her  father  or  big 
brother,  for  the  difference  which  is  necessary  to  lift  her  up  to  the  “bread 
line.”  I have  been  trying  to  get  from  the  people  who  have  come_  before 
this  Committee  at  least  the  statement  that  they  feel  the  moral  obligation, 
ill  that  it  ought  to  be  done,  and  I am  a firm  believer  in  this:  if  we  are  to 
li  arouse  in  you  the  feeling,  the  feeling  which  one  feels  that  any  young 
[woman  ought  not  to  have  to  go  to  work  Monday  morning  unless  she 
'shows  that  at  the  end  of  the  week  she  will  be  able  to  pay  her  bare  run- 
iining  expenses,  and  that  she  won’t  have  to  look  in  dubious  places  for  that 
[deficit  that  we  are  trying  to  get  from  you  people,  so  that  we  may  be  the 
ijjudges  of  whether  you  can  be  compelled  to  do  it  or  not.  I am  one  of 
i those  who  will  go  a long  way  to  keep  away  from  the  word  “compulsion,” 
ilbecause  I think  that  the  public  spirit  of  the  men  in  Chicago  is  so  much 
;|! higher  than  it  is  elsewhere  that  they  will  bring  this  about  without  waiting 
Sfor  a law;  that  even  if  the  law  has  to  go  into  effect,  that  you  gentlemen 
I will  meet  us.  A.  Thank  you. 

!Q.  That  is  my  idea.  A.  I believe  it. 

Q.  If  you  do  not  care  to  state  to  us  today,  there  is  another  point: 

' We  have  power  to  compel  the  attendance  of  witnesses,  books  and  every- 

thing else,  and  compel  the  gentlemen  who  refuse  to  answer,  to  answer  by 
compulsion  and  they  can  be  indicted  if  they  refuse.  We  ought  to  be  able  to 

t;  come  together  in  Chicago  without  resorting  to  any  drastic  measures,  or  to 
use  sheriffs  and  courts.  A.  I think  we  will. 

Q.  I think  we  ought  to  come  together  like  good  fellows,  and  settle 
fthis  difficulty,  and  then  we  will  think  more  of  one  another  for  doing  it; 
is  that  right?  A.  Yes.  But  if  you  want  a minimum  wage,  how  about 
Washington  ? 

; SENATOR  JUUL:  They  tried  in  Washington  to  build  a waterway 

for  us  once.  I understand  that  they  had  it  surveyed  some  thirty  years 

sago.  We  don’t  want  the  girls  to  wait  for  $3.00  that  long,  Mr.  Pirie. 

I 

1 


264 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


THE  CHAIRMAN;  Mr.  Pirie,  I believe  you  must  have  responded 
in  part  to  Senator  Juul’s  eloquent  appeal  to  you,  and  I want  to  ask  you 
again  what  were  the  profits  of  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Company  during 
the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I dislike  to  refuse  you,  but  I have  to  do  it 
until  I get  advice  of  counsel.  I would  like  to  answer  your  questions, 
but  that  is  the  only  one  I do  not  care  to. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  He  stated  that  he  would  see  what  he  could  do 
towards  raising  the  employes  to  living  wages. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  did  the  business  of  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott 
& Company  during  the  last  fiscal  year  compare  with  the  previous  year? 
A.  It  was  about  the  same  as  the  year  before. 

Q.  About  the  same  as  the  year  before?  A.  Yes.  Is  that  what  you 
mean?  I do  not  want  to  evade. 

_ Q.  Did  you  report  to  any  credit  institution  that  the  profits  of  Carson, 
Pirie,  Scott  & Company  last  year  w'ere  the  greatest  in  the  history  of  the 
firm;  did  you  make  that  report,  yes  or  no?  A.  To  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  no. 

Q.  And  your  knowledge  would  probably  be  conclusive  there?  A.  It 
would. 

Q.  Were  the  profits  of  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Company  last  j^ear  in 
excess  of  the  profits  of  any  preceding  year?  A.  I must  refuse  to  answer 
you  that,  until  I get  the  advice  of  counsel. 

Q.  Have  you  said  to  any  one,  at  any  time,  that  the  profits  of  Carson, 
Pirie,  Scott  & Company  last  year  were  the  greatest  in  the  history  of  the 
firm?  A.  I might  have;  I do  not  recall  it. 

Q.  And  if  you  did,  you  probably  would  be  stating  the  truth?  A. 
That  is  my  habit. 

Q.  Then  we  are  to  judge,  Mr.  Pirie,  that  the  profits  of  Carson,  Pirie, 
Scott  & Company  were  the  greatest  in  the  history  of  your  concern? 
A.  I didn’t  say  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Senator  Tossey,  have  you  any  question  to  ask 
the  witness? 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  is  the  general  condition  of  women  in 
your  department?  A.  I think  it  is  the  very  best.  I think  they  are  of 
the  highest  character.  I would  be  surprised  to  find  one  that  isn’t. 

Q.  Have  you  any  profit-sharing  methods  with  which  to  increase  their 
wages?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  minimum  wage  paid  to  women  in  your  establish- 
ment a year  ago?  Was  it  any  lower  than  it  is  today?  A.  I think  it  was 
a little. 

Q.  Now  are  we  to  understand  that  a year  ago,  you  paid  girls  less 
than  $4  a week?  A.  I think  not.  We  might  have  had  one  or  two.  I will 
look  that  up. 

Q.  Settle  it  now.  You  think  j^ou  didn’t  have  any  girls  who  were 
paid  less  than  $4  a week  a year  ago?  A.  Not  to  speak  of,  but  there 
might  have  been  one  or  two.  I would  not  testify  positively  under  oath 
until  I look  it  up. 

Q.  Then  the  truth  of  the  matter  is,  that  the  year  before,  these  girls 
that  were  getting  $4  a -week,  shared  not  at  all  in  those  profits?  A.  No, 
sir,  our  girls — are  employes  are  not  paid  profit  shares. 

Q.  I don’t  mean  that,  Mr.  Pirie;  I want  to  show  what  it  benefits 
a girl  working  for  you,  when  you  are  making  money?  A.  I think  you 
will,  have  to  take  the  average  payroll,  which  is  increased 

Q.  And  in  what  proportion?  A.  I will  get  you  the  exact  figures; 

I haven’t  them  now. 

Q.  The  figures  I would  like  to  have,  and  have  you  produce  with 
those  figures,  a statement  of  the  profits  made  during  the  last  year,  or 
do  you  know  if  it  would  make  a fair  comparison?  A.  You  mean  the 
wages? 

Q.  Sweeping  the  average  all  to  one  side,  I am  talking  about  the  girls 
who  are  making  $4.  Her  condition  was  not  improved,  you  say,  from  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


265 


fact  that  you  made  more  money  last  year  than  the  year  before?  A.  They 
I [were  less  probably  last  year  than  the  year  before. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Beall,  have  you  anything  more? 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  Nothing  more. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  are  granted  a recess,  but  hold  yourself 
ijisubject  to  our  call,  please. 

I THE  WITNESS:  I am  summoned  to  appear  in  a suit  against  the 
)iiLehigh  Valley  Railroad  in  New  York.  If  I go,  will  I be  in  contempt 
} i here? 

i THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  only  ask  you  to  keep  yourself  ready  to  res- 
t i pond  to  our  call.  We  will  accept  a reasonable  excuse. 

, I THE  WITNESS:  Is  that  reasonable? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Reasonable,  and  it  is  granted, 
j THE  WITNESS:  Thank  you,  gentlemen. 

ij  Mr.  E.  J.  Lehmann’s  Testimony. 

'I  E.  J.  LEHMANN,  a witness  called  by  the  Commission,  having  been 
I [first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

I EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

fj  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edward  J.  Lehmann. 

|:  Q.  And  the  name  of  the  firm,  Mr.  Lehmann?  A.  The  Fair. 

I Q.  The  Fair  is  the  name  of  the  corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

( Q.  What  is  it  incorporated  for,  in  dollars?  A.  I do  not  wish  to 

|i  state  that. 

f Q.  You  report  that  information  to  the  Secretary  of  State,  therefore 
I there  isn’t  any  secret  in  that?  A.  One  million  dollars. 

Q.  That  is  the  amount  of  the  incorporation?  Have  you  any  objection 
to  stating  what  the  earnings  of  your  store  were  last  year?  A.  I do  not 
wish  to. 

^ 1 Q.  You  are  being  asked  by  a committee  created  by  the  State  of 
jj  Illinois;  have  you  any  objection?  A.  Yes. 

I : Q.  Now  will  you  state  your  reasons  for  such  objection?  A.  Well, 

II  do  not  believe  it  would  be  of  any  interest  to  the  public  to  know. 

Q.  If  this  Committee  were  to  find  out,  Mr.  Lehmann,  that  on  the 
:i  million  dollar  capital,  for  instance,  you  are  paying  30  or  40,  or  any  other 
; given  per  cent  of  earnings,  and  that  if  they  were  to  find  in  this  investiga- 
I j,  tion  that  you  were  paying  your  employes  a lower  sum  of  money  than  it 
[ would  take  those  employes  to  live,  and  that  some  of  those  employes 
I jj  either  would  have  to  have  more  money,  or  some  other  sources  from 
[[which  they  could  get  it,  or  would  be  burdens  on  the  state,  or  the  subjects 
I [ of  charity,  would  you  then  sUy  it  was  not  your  business  to  state  what 
I il  your  earnings  were?  Would  you  then  say  it  was  not  your  business  to 
I ‘ increase  the  wage  of  any  employe  of  yours,  through  being  unfit  or  other- 
L;  wise,  and  thus  making  them  become  the  subjects  of  charity,  through  want 
[ of  mentality,  sickness,  etc.,  would  you  say  it  was  no  business  of  the  state 
[i  to  investigate  into  it  and  ascertain  whether  or  not  the  wage  question 
! I had  a bearing  on  the  moral  question;  would  you  say  it  was  no  business  of 
I ours  thus  to  investigate?  A.  I would  say  yes,  if  it  proved  that  income 
) had  something  to  do  with  it. 

I Q.  I want  the  gentlemen  of  this  Committee  to  prove  to  you,  no 
f|  matter  how  much  you  make,  that  it  is  their  business  to  know,  before 
ij  you  answer  the  question?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  as  that  would  come 
I into  this  matter. 

1 1 Q.  Well,  answer  it  in  your  own  way:  Do  you  consider  that  you, 

! as  a big  employer  of  labor,  are  any  better  or  any  different  than  any  other 
f earning  man  or  woman,  who  would  be  summoned  before  this  body  on 
I the  part  of  the  commonwealth?  A.  Not  a bit,  sir. 

j Q.  You  do  not  consider  that  you  ought  to  be  exempt  from  testifying 


266  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


before  this  Committee  in  this  case,  because  of  the  more  or  less  questioning 
you  will  undergo?  A.  No,  sir 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  feel  you  are  same  as  the  others  who  have 
come  here?  A.  I certainly  am,  sir. 

Q.  Then  we  can  start  in  on  the  basis  of  a feeling  that  you  do  not 
hold  us  in  contempt:  Mr.  Lehmann,  how  many  female  employes  have 
you?  A.  1,750. 

Q.  1,750?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Divide  these  employes  into  groups;  will  you  take  the  figures. 
Governor? 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Yes,  Senator. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Divide  these  employes  into  groups;  what  is  the 
lowest  paid  group  of  employes  you  have?  A.  $3.00  a week. 

Q.  How  many  are  in  that  group  of  $3.00  a week?  A.  74. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  group,  Mr.  Lehmann?  A.  $3.50. 

Q.  How  many  are  in  that  group?  A.  66. 

Q.  And  the  next  group?  A.  $4.00. 

Q.  And  how  many  in  that  group?  A.  58. 

Q.  How  many  in  the  next  group?  A.  59  at  $4.50. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  74  at  $3?  A.  Yes,  sir.  74  at  $3;  66  at  $3.50; 
58  at  $4;  59  at  $4.50,  making  a total  of  257. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  what  you  call  the  juvenile  group?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  How  old  is  the  oldest  girl  in  the  juvenile  group;  approximately 
how  old?  A.  Well,  55  per  cent  of  those  are  under  16,  and  the  other  45 
per  cent  range  between  16  and  18. 

Q.  There  are  girls  in  that  group  of  juveniles  who  are  over  16? 
A.  Over  16,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  as  high  as  18?  A.  I cannot  say  how  high  they  go,  but 
all  of  them  are  over  16  years  of  age. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  figure  w'e  have  right  there  in  that  table? 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  $4.50. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Give  us  the  next  group,  and  the  number  of 
them?  A.  We  have  128  who  get  $5  and  $5.50.  I haven’t  got  them 
separated. 

Q.  And  the  next  group?  A.  276,  who  get  $6  and  $6.50. 

Q.  And  then  the  following  group?  A.  That  is  as  far  as  I have 
them  classified. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  got  in  the  class  between  $6.50  and  say  $8 
or  $8.50;  say  $8?  A.  Well,  we  have  149  at  $7.  I would  have  to  have 
them  divided.  I have  them  classed  in  two  places.  149  at  $7  in  one  class; 
67  at  $7  in  another  class;  24  at  $7.50  in  one  class,  and  50  at  $7.50  in 
another  class. 

Q.  Are  there  any  in  between  those  figures  and  $8?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  at  $8?  A.  There  are  121  in  one  classification 
here,  and  59  in  another. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Lehmann,  will  you  tell  this  Committee  whether  in 
your  opinion  it  would  be  possible  for  your  company  to  pay  all  of  these 
female  employes,  receiving  a wage  ranging  from  the  lowest  up  to  $8, 
a sum  of  money  which  would  enable  such  employes  to  live  without  any 
outside  aid;  would  that  be  possible  without  materiall}^  injuring  the  status 
of  your  business  in  a financial  wajU  A.  It  would  naturally  depreciate 
the  income. 

Q.  Yes,  but  would  it  give  each  stockholder,  each  gentleman  or 
woman  financially  interested  in  your  business,  a decent  return  on  their 
investment  if  such  increases  were  to  be  made?  A.  That  all  depends 
on  what  you  mean  by  decent  income. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  decent  income.  Mr.  Lehmann?  This  is 
a Yankee  trick,  the  answering  of  one  question  by  asking  another,  and  I 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


267 


. . ' . ' . 

{will  use  it  by  turning  the  tables  on  you;  I will  ask  you  the  question  back 
[again:  To  put  money  in  the  Fair  would  be  safe  as  an  investment,  would 
it  not?  A.  I could  not  very  well  state  that  either,  without  giving  the 
income. 

Q.  I did  not  ask  you  to  give  the  income;  we  will  thresh  out  the 
income  proposition  some  other  day.  You  might  be  better  prepared  to 
enter  into  it  when  the  time  comes.  Here  is  the  proposition;  What  do 
you  consider  a fair  return  on  any  investment  in  a mercantile  establish- 
ment of  the  high  standing  that  yours  is;  that  isn’t  a hazardous  risk, 
jiis  it?  Money  put  in  the  Fair  is  pretty  safe,  isn’t  it?  A.  It  has  been. 

[ Q.  What  would  be  fair  interest  on  money;  that  isn’t  asking  you  what 
you  are  paying?  A.  I would  like  to  answer  that  in  another  way:  By 
raising  the  people  who  are  now  getting  seven  or  eight  dollars 

Q.  Or  three  or  four  dollars?  A.  or  three  or  four  dollars, 

we  could  not  stop  there;  we  would  have  to  raise  all  the  males  as  well, 
but  that  would  make  a material  difference. 

Q.  I understand  that.  The  first  question  we  are  trying  to  get  at, 
Mr.  Lehmann,  is,  the  possibility  of  raising  these  people  who  are  not  today 
able  to  take  care  of  themselves,  to  pay  every  woman  who  labors  in 
Illinois,  to  put  her  on  a basis  where  she  can  go  home  Saturday  night 
!with  a sufficient  amount  of  money  that  she  wouldn’t  have  to  get  in  this 
way  and  that  way,  but  with  the  requisite  amount  of  money  for  her  labor 
ifrom  Monday  morning  to  Saturday  night  that  will  keep  her.  I am 
(asking  you  if  you  consider  that  to  pay  such  wage  would  materially  injure 
jimen  and  women  who  have  invested  their  money  with  you?  A.  I think 
(so. 

( Q.  You  think  it  would  materially  injure  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  you  consider  that  if  you  paid  what  the  Governor  has  been 
;pleased  to  call  here  a wage  that  runs  above  the  bread-line,  that  you  could 
(not  pay  six  per  cent  on  the  investment?  A.  We  might  possibly  be  able 

^to  pay  six  per  cent  if  we  did  not  have  to  pay  the  other  help  accord- 

fingly,  which  I think  we  would  have  to  do. 

1 Q.  Why  should  you,  or  any  other  set  of  gentlemen,  in  Illinois  or 
fany  other  state,  want  to  depress  a given  number  of  people  so  low  that 
[they  would  not  have  money  enough  to  get  their  meals  regularly,  in  order 
ithat  others  may  get  more?  We  are  not  trying  to  interfere  with  the  con- 
duct of  your  business  on  a self-supporting  basis,  but  we  are  trying  to 
(find  out  whether  people  who  place  a number  of  other  people  below  the 
[bread-line  do  it  purposely;  do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  to  do 
[that,  to  put  them  above  and  beyond  the  bread-line,  would  interfere  with 
jjthe  fair  earning  capacity  of  the  men  and  women  who  have  been  investing 

[Itheir  money  in  your  business?  A.  I think  it  would.  It  wouldn’t  stop 

[with  this  classification,  it  would  go  through  the  entire  payroll. 

'I  Q.  And  you  would  have  to  make  raises  for  the  rest?  A.  Yes. 

s Q.  You  mean  that  the  employes  that  are  receiving  $15,  if  you  ele- 

Jvated  the  little  girls  who  are  receiving  $3,  bringing  them  up  to  the  bread- 
jiline,  that  the  ones  that  get  $15  wouldn’t  consider  it  a square  deal?  A.  I 
believe  so,  yes. 

j Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  that  in  order  to  continue  the  $15  men  at 
$15  that  you  must  be  unjust  to  the  three  or  four  or  five  dollar  girls? 
iA.  It  might  appear  that  way. 

I Q.  Isn’t  that  pretty  near  to  your  line  of  reasoning,  Mr.  Lehmann? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  is  a good  line  of  reasoning?  A.  I do  not 
say  that  is  the  line  of  reasoning;  I say  that  is  really  a fact;  if  we  raise 
(these  people,  we  would  have  to  raise  the  others. 

I Q.  Now,  I will  ask  you  if  the  State  of  Illinois  were  to  establish 

I through  its  police  powers  a bread-line,  or  a starvation  line,  call  it  by 
whatever  name  you  see  fit  to:  Do  you  think  your  firm  would  seriously 
object  to  such  legislation,  and  try  to  evade  it,  or  avoid  it,  or  test  its  con- 
stitutionality, or  otherwise?  A.  No,  sir,  I don’t  think  that  they  would. 
Q.  You  believe  you  would  fall  in.  line  with  it  and  use  it?  A.  Yes. 
Q.  And  do  what  the  law  tells  you  to  do?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


268  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Have  you  a system  of  fines  in  your  establishment,  Mr.  Lehmann? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  fine  your  girls?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  a system  of  fines?  A.  A little,  yes. 

Q.  At  the  time  that  you  had  the  system  of  fines,  were  your  fines 
larger  than  the  pay  allowed?  In  other  words,  if  a girl  were  half  an  hour 
late,  would  she  be  fined  a higher  amount  for  that  half  hour  than  she 
would  have  received  had  she  worked  during  that  half  hour?  A.  I do  not 
believe  that  would  be  the  case,  but  I am  not  quite  familiar  with  the  fines. 

I think  they  took  out  the  system  six  months  ago. 

Q.  The  system  was  taken  out,  was  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  the  young  women  in  your  establishment 
for  medical  attendance?  A.  No,  sir,  they  have  medical  attendance  free. 

Q.  They  have  that  free,  do  they?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  charge  them  for  their  drinking  water  in  your  establish- 
ment? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  have  any  charge  for  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Whatever  amount  they  receive,  they  receive  exclusive  of  every- 
thing else  on  pay  night?  A.  Unless  they  were  members  of  the  Benevolent 
Association. 

Q.  They  contribute  to  that,  do  they?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  would  you  say,  Mr.  Lehmann,  as  to  the  status  of  the  average 
girl  who  is  working  for  three  or  four  or  five  or  six  dollars  per  week, 
where  the  home  conditions  are  such  that  she  cannot  depend  very  much 
on  the  aid  she  would  receive  from  the  parents  or  brothers,  what  would 
you  say  as  to  her  being  fortified  or  not  fortified  against  the  allurements 
of  a great  city  like  this?  A.  Well,  I believe — I do  not  believe  that 
morality  has  anything  to  do  with  wages,  personally. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  wage  question  has  anything  to  do  with  the 
honesty  of  an  employe?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  think  an  underpaid  cashier  is  more  prone  to  fall  than 
one  who  feels  she  is  well  paid?  A.  No,  sir,  not  if  she  is  an  honest  girl. 

Q.  No?  A.  Not  if  she  is  a good  girl. 

Q.  Now,  then,  to  figure  that  out:  There  are  two  methods  by  which 

a girl  might  increase  her  income — one  by  decency,  and  by  immoraljty. 
What  would  you  say  that  there  ought  to  be  a third  method  for  making 
more  money?  A.  I do  not  know  whether  I understand  that  question. 

Q.  Most  of  the  gentlemen  who  have  preceded  you,  hav'e  suggested 
that  it  would  take  $8  a week  to  keep  a woman,  keep  an  employe,  so  that 
she  won’t  have  to  look  for  outside  aid.  Now,  in  the  case  of  the  $8  employe, 
and  a shortage  of  three  or  four  dollars  in  the  case  of  the  four  and  five 
dollar  girls,  and  so  on,  would  you  say  that  the  woman  who  lacks  three 
or  four  dollars  in  the  making  up  of  what  it  takes  to  just  get  the  bare 
necessaries  of  life,  would  you  say  that  she  is  as  well  fortified  as  the  woman 
who  gets  $8?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  She  is  just  as  well  fortified?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  consider,  if  you  were  a girl,  getting  $4  a week, 

and  you  did  not  know  where  you  were  going  to  get  the  other  $4,  do  you 
think  you  would  be  just  as  strong  morally  as  the  girl  \yho  gets  $8,  and 
do  you  think  you  wouldn’t  have  to  go  elsewhere  for  the  difference  between 
the  four  and  the  eight?  A.  I believe  the  girls  can  get  more  than  $4  if 
they  want  to  be  domestics. 

Q.  That  is  the  point.  That  would  be  all  right,  if  we  could  make 
servants  out  of  them,  because  then  they  would  get  better  food,  better 
hours,  and  $6  a week,  and  wouldn’t  have  anything  to  pay  for  their  food.  A. 
Eighty-seven  per  cent  of  our  people  live  with  their  parents  and  relatives; 
13  per  cent  do  not,  and  these  13  per  cent  average  $9.50  per  week. 

Q.  Eighty-seven  per  cent  live  with  their  parents,  you  say?  Yes,  sir, 
parents  and  relatives. 

Q.  Now,  when  her  father  is  out  of  work  in  the  winter  Erne,  and  she 
still  lives  with  her  father,  and  there  isn’t  anything  coming  in  but  what 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  269 

i 

Ihe  girl  brings  in,  do  you  consider  that  that  girl  is  pretty  well  fortified 
Iwith  the  $4  in  her  pocket  on  the  Saturday  night?  A.  In  a case  like  that 
|she  could  come  to  me  and  get  help  until  her  father  is  well. 

I Q.  Doesn’t  that  state  of  facts  exist  with  every  one  of  these  girls? 
;A.  Does  it  exist,  you  say? 

Q.  Yes,  don’t  you  consider  while  at  the  present  time  there  is  no  legal 
obligation  on  your  part  to  pay  the  girls  enough  to  live  on,  isn’t  there  a 
moral  obligation  on  the  part  of  every  employer  to  place  every  employe  on 
a sound  basis?  I am  not  talking  about  a fancy  one.  A.  Yes,  I think 
we  are  morally  obligated  to  take  care  of  them. 

Q.  You  think  your  firm  would  be  willing  to  aid  the  state  govern- 
ment in  bringing  about  what  I have  called  to  your  attention,  where  the 
female  employes  receive  less  than  $8,  so  that  they  wouldn’t  have  to  go 
|on  dark  ways  and  in  dark  places  to  get  it?  A.  I think  we  would,  if  it 
iwere  made  universal  throughout  the  state. 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Mr.  Lehmann,  have  you  stated  what  you  consider  is  the  lowest 
amount  of  wage  upon  which  a self-supporting  woman  can  exist  in  the 
city  of  Chicago?  A.  I haven’t  stated  it,  because  I don’t  know. 

! Q.  Would  you  say  approximately  $8?  A.  I have  never  made  a 
study  of  it.  From  what  I have  heard  other  gentlemen  say,  it  ranges  from 
seven  to  eight  dollars. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Lehmann,  I want  to  call  your  attention  to  one  thing: 

I You  have  stated  under  oath  that  you  employ  1,750  women,  and  that  1,131 
'get  $8  or  less?  A.  How  many? 

Q.  Eleven  hundred,  approximately.  As  a man,  do  you  think  that 
is  right?  That  for  a living  wage  that  $8  would  be  the  right  amount 
that  the  majority  of  the  women  workers  should  get?  A.  As  I said 
jbefore,  87  per  cent  live  at  home. 

Q.  You  cannot  shift  the  responsibility  upon  the  home,  can  you?  A. 
iiThere  are  a great  many  who  make  more. 

Q.  I might  say  that  this  Committee  is  not  taking  very  seriously  the 
idea  of  shifting  the  responsibility  upon  the  home.  You  get  these  girls 
to  do  work  for  you,  and  you  cannot  shift  the  responsibility  of  part  of 
their  support  upon  the  home.  Mr.  Lehmann,  have  you  stated  what  the 
net  profit  of  your  company  was  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  why  have  you  not  done  so?  Haven’t  you  been  asked  the 
question?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  were  your  net  profits?  A.  I do  not  care  to  state. 

Q.  You  refuse  to  state?  A.  Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  journal  will  show  the  refusal  of  the  witness. 

Q.  Mr.  Lehmann,  is  there  any  organization  among  the  merchants  on 
State  street  that  might  be  called  in  a sense  a trust?  A.  No,  sir,  not  to 
my  knowledge. 

Q.  Have  you  any  oragnization,  society  or  association  through  which 
the  word  to  do  or  not  to  do  certain  things  is  passed  around?  A.  No, 
sir;  but  we  have  a State  Street  Association — a retail  association. 

Q.  How  often  does  that  association  meet?  A.  It  meets  at  different 
times,  various  times. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  at  those  times?  A.  We  take  up  different 
subjects. 

Q.  When  did  that  association  hold  its  last  meeting?  A.  Well,  I 
could  not  give  you  the  exact  date. 

Q.  Within  the  last  week?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge — no. 

Q.  Is  it  likely  that  that  association  might  have  decided  not  to  give 
to  this  Committee  the  figures  regarding  your  net  profits,  or  your  prob- 
able profit;  is  it  possible  that  word  to  withhold  that  information  from 


270 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


ihis  Committee  might  have  been  passed  around  through  that  association? 
A.  I suppose  it  might^^have  been,  if  anybody  brought  it  out. 

Q.  Was  it,  yes  or  no,  Mr.  Lehman,  was  it?  A.  I do  not  care  to 
state  that  without  advice  of  counsel. 

Q.  Yes  or  no,  Mr.  Lehmann,  was  it?  A.  I wish  to  get  my  coun- 
sel’s advice  on  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  not  asking  you  any  of  your  earnings?  A. 
I understand.  Senator,  but  I should  like  to  get  counsel’s  advice  on  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  refuse  to  answer  yes  or  no  until  you  have 
advice  of  counsel?  A.  Yes.  

Q.  With  whom,  Mr.  Lehmann,  have  you  consulted  regarding  the 
nature  of  the  testimony  you  were  to  give  before  this  Committee;  with 
whom,  outside  of  the  members  of  your  own  firm  or  corporation?  A. 
With  whom  have  I discussed  it? 

Q.  Yes.  With  other  merchants  in  the  same  line  of  business?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  Has  any  other  merchant  entered  into  an  agreement  with  you  to 
withhold  from  this  Committee  information  regarding  profits?  A.  I do 
not  care  to  answer  the  question  without  advice  of  counsel. 

Q.  With  what  merchants  did  you  consult?  A.  I do  not  care  to 
answer  without  advice  of  counsel. 

Q.  Did  the  matter  of  wages  come  up  for  discussion  at  the  last 
meeting  of  this  State  Street  Merchants’  Association?  (It  is  called  the 
State  Street  Association,  is  it?)  A.  State  Street  Retail  Association.  The 
subject  of  wages,  to  my  knowledge,  has  never  been  brought  up  at  any  of 
the  State  Street  Association  meetings. 

Q.  Has  this  association  a black-list?  A.  It  has  no  black-list  to  my 
knowledge,  unless  it  would  be  in  the  case  of  dishonest  employes. 

Q.  And  it  has  such  black-list  in  the  case  of  dishonest  employes?  A. 
I am  not  positive  on  that;  I haven’t  attended  many  meetings;  I think  it 
did  have;  whether  or  not  it  has  at  the  present  time  I do  not  know. 

Q.  Does  this  association  regulate  the  price  of  goods?  A.  Not  in 
any  shape  or  manner. 

Q.  Has  it  ever?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Does  it  specify  certain  days  as  sales  days?  A.  No,  sir,  it  does 

not. 

Q.  You  know  that?  A.  I know  that  positively. 

Q.  Does  this  association  pass  upon  rules  for  workers,  woman  workers? 
A.  I do  not  know  of  any  such  rules. 

Q.  Is  there  a general  uniformity  in  the  rules  regulating  the  conduct 
of  woman  workers  on  State  street?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge.  They 
have  got  many  different  rules. 

Q.  But  in  a way  matters  of  general  business  policy  are  discussed  at 
the  meetings  of  the  State  Street  Retail  Merchants’  Association,  are  they 
not?  A.  Yes,  general  things  are  brought  up  at  different  times. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : How  long  do  the  girls  in  3"Our  employ,  who 
are  receiving  five  or  six  dollars  a week,  or  seven  dollars  a week,  how_  long 
do  they  stay  in  your  employ  at  those  wages?  A.  Whjq  there  is^  an 
ordinance  on  that,  I believe,  or  a state  law,  whatever  it  is.  I think  it  is 
eight  hours  for  the  juvenile  and  ten  hours  for  other  people. 

Q.  I mean,  how  long  do  they  sta^'  at  five  or  six  or  seven  dollars  a 
week?  A.  The  regulation  hours  are  eight  and  three-quarters. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  No;  how  long  do  they  remain  at  those  wages? 

THE  WITNESS:  I understand. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Before  they  are  advanced  higher?  A.  I could 
not  say;  I do  not  know. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  don’t  know  how  long  the  girls  who 
receive  $5  a week  stay  at  that  price,  or  how  long  at  $6?  A.  It  all  de- 
pends on  their  ability. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


271 


' ' Q.  You  do  not  know  how  fast  they  are  advanced?  A.  No,  but  they 
• Jare  advanced  according  to  how  well  they  do,  and  that  is  under  the  super- 
, [vision  of  the  superintendent. 

I Q.  Then  a girl  at  $6  a week  might  stay  as  long  as  a year,  or  two 
[years,  might  she?  A.  I could  not  say;  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  case,  or  has  it  ever  been  called  to  your 
'[attention,  where  any  floor  manager  has  insulted  a woman  in  your  store? 
|A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  done  with  him?  A.  Immediately  discharged. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Mr.  Lehmann,  have  you  heard  anythin?  about 
!a  fund  being  raised  among  any  business  men  to  fight  the  efforts — if  there 
. be  efforts — to  enact  a minimum  wage  law  in  this  state?  A.  I know  of 
1 [none. 

Q.  You  have  contributed  to  no  such  fund?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Lehmann,  a member  of  the  State  Senate  of 
r [Illinois  sends  the  following  question  to  the  Committee  to  be  asked  you; 
«i“Do  you  think  that  any  corporation  can  justify  its  right  to  exist  under 
•'the  laws  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  if  it  cannot  and  does  not  pay  a living 
i i wage  to  its  employes?”  A.  That  depends  a great  deal  upon  their 
I ! condition. 

' Q.  If  the  conditions  are  such  that  there  is  no  money  left  for  the 
> ['investor,  wouldn’t  you  say,  as  an  abstract  proposition,  that  there  should 
!be  first  money  enough  to  pay  those  who  earn  the  money?  A.  Every- 
I body  should  be  paid  enough  to  live  on.  Senator. 

! Q.  What  we  wanted  to  get  at  is,  your  idea,  and  the  ideas  of  other 
' gentlemen  in  similar  lines.  There  are  two  factors  to  be  paid — the  living, 

I human  factor  that  creates  the  wealth,  and  the  capital  that  makes  it  pos- 
1 sible  for  the  living,  human  factor  to  create  the  wealth,  and,  under  the  law, 

I we  believe  that  wages  is  one  of  the  liabilities  that  should  be  paid  before 
' Capital  receives  anything' — isn’t  that  correct?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  other  words,  labor  is  a prior  lien,  and  should  receive  its  share 
: I before  capital  receives  its?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  this  question;  Do  you  believe  that  a corporation  should  ' 
exist  under  the  protection  of  the  laws  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  if  unable  or 
r unwilling  to  pay  a living  wage?  And  your  answer  to  that  is  what?  A. 
i That  the  people  should  be  paid  a living  wage. 

I Q.  Should  be  paid  a living  wage  first?  A.  Yes. 

I THE  CHAIRMAN;  Mr.  Lehmann,  you  are  granted  a recess  until 
f called  again.  You  are  not  finally  released. 

Mr.  Henry  C.  Schwab’s  Testimony. 

HENRY  C.  SCHWAB,  a witness  called  by  the  Committee,  having 
been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows; 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

, Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Henry  C.  Schwab. 

' Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Retail  dry-goods. 

j Q.  And  connected  with  what  store?  A.  Rothschild’s. 

j Q.  What  is  your  official  position?  A.  Vice-president  and  secretary. 

; Q.  And  you  are  acquainted  with  the  affairs  of  the  company?  A.  In 

. a general  sort  of  way,  yes. 

! Q.  You  have  power  to  engage  help  and  also  to  discharge  help?  A. 

; Yes,  if  I see  fit. 

f Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  an  organization  known  as  the  State 
1 Street  Retail  Association?  A.  There  is  one,  as  I understand  it. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ  at  Rothschild’s?  A.  The  pay- 
roll a week  ago,  as  I looked  at  it,  showed  1,150  to  be  employed. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  woman  worker?  A.  In  the 
case  of  errand  girls,  the  wage  runs  as  low  as  $3. 


272 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Are  there  any  wages  lower  than  that?  A.  I do  not  recall  of 
any;  there  might  be  an  exceptional  case. 

_Q.  Now,  kindly  tell  me,  first,  what  was  the  net  profits  of  Roth- 
schild’s during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I prefer  not  to  answer  that  ques- 
tion. That  information  comes  to  me  in  a confidential  way,  and  I cannot 
say  that  I care  to  reveal  it. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  counsel?  A.  Have  I?  With  reference  to 
that?  I have  spoken  to  parties  about  it. 

_ Q.  Have  yon  consulted  your  fellow  merchants?  A.  There  has  been 
a little  discussion  about  it. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  your  fellow  members  in  the  State  Street 
Retail  Association?  A.  Have  I consulted  with  reference  to  that?  No, 
but  the  matter  was  talked  over  in  a general  way. 

Q.  It  has  been  talked  over  by  members  of  this  associationT  A.  I 
presume  so,  yes. 

Q.  Has  a rule  or  an  order  been  passed  around  among  members  of 
that  association  to  the  effect  that  the  matter  of  profits  ought  not  to  be 
divulged  to  this  Committee?  A.  I could  not  say  that  it  was.  ■ 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  your  own  knowledge?  A.  Put  that  question 
again.  Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  that  is  so  or  not?  A.  That  is? 

Q.  That  the  members  of  the  State  Street  Retail  Merchants’  Associa- 
tion have  mutually  agreed  not  to  give  this  Committee  that  information? 
A.  There  was  some  talk  about  it,  but  I do  not  know  how  far  that 
agreement  extended. 

Q.  There  is  such  an  agreement?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  “agreement”: 
there  has  been  some  discussion. 

Q.  Discussion,  but  not  agreement?  A.  I could  not  say  how  far  it 
went. 

Q.  You  know  there  has  been  some  discussion  with  respect  to  your 
testimony  here?  A.  Not  entirely;  no,  sir. 

Q.  Not  entirely,  but  in  part?  A.  I am  taking  the  position  that  the 
information  comes  to  me  in  a confidential  sort  of  way,  and  I do  not  care 
* to  reveal  it. 

Q.  You  understand  the  full  scope  and  authority  reposed  or  vested 
in  this  Committee,  do  you?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  You  understand  that  this  Committee  has  the  right  to  cite  before 
the  bar  of  the  Senate  any  witnesses  who  refuse  to  answer  questions, 
Mr.  Schwab?  A.  Yes,  I presume  so. 

Q.  And  power  to  order  him  imprisoned?  A.  I am  not  positive 
about  that. 

Q.  That  is  your  general  understanding  of  the  subject,  however?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  And  knowing  that,  you  refuse  to  answer  it?  A.  I won’t  refuse 
to;  I want  to  take  the  matter  under  further  consideration. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  . Mr.  Schwab,  have  you  a list  of  questions  that 
you  will  refuse  to  answer?  A.  I have  not. 

Q.  About  how  many  questions  will  you  refuse  to  answer?  A.  I 
will  tell  you  if  you  put  the  question. 

Q.  This  is  the  situation;  Every  time  you  refuse  to  answer  a ques- 
tion, and  this  Committee  does  not  insist  on  you  answering  the  question, 
you  just  exactly  by  so  much  lower  the  status  of  this  Committee.  ^Ve 
must  either  assert  our  right  as  a Committee  in  summoning  you  and  in 
having  you  answer  us,  or  make  the  general  public  of  the  State  think  we 
do  not  have  authority,  or  that  we  are  sitting  here  unwilling  to  exercise 
it.  You  see  what  an  embarrassing  position  you  are  putting  this  Commit- 
tee in,  don’t  you? 

(No  answer.) 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


273 


Q.  Now,  just  a moment  ago  you  refused  to  answer  questions  that 
had  absolutely  no  bearing  on  your  earnings  at  all — it  wasn’t  a question 
about  your  trade,  either.  It  wasn’t  a question  that  affected  the  percentage 
earned  by  your  capital  invested,  and  yet  you  refused  the  Governor  to 
answer  it.  Do  you  think  that  this  Committee  is  going  to  accept  answers 
of  that  kind?  If  you  do,  the  sooner  we  shut  up  shop  and  go  home  the 
better.  But  we  have  no  such  idea.  We  are  here  charged  with  a public 
duty,  and  we  are  going  through  with  it.  What  would  you  do,  under 
those  circumstances?  A.  I would  put  whatever  questions  I saw  fit  to. 

Q.  But  you  apparently  give  us  the  right  to  ask  the  questions,  and 
yet  reserve  unto  yourself  the  right  of  refusal  to  answer.  A.  I refused 
to  answer  the  question  with  reference  to  the  profits,  for  the  reasons  I 
have  stated. 

Q.  And  we  have  held  it  in  abeyance.  How  many  female  workers 
have  3^ou,  Mr.  Schwab?  A.  I stated  that — about  1,150. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  1,150  women  are  paid  a salary  below  $8  per 
week?  A.  Well,  I can  answer  that  in  a more  general  way.  In  this  way: 
There  is  a possible 

Q.  How  many  at  three  or  four  dollars?  A.  Comparatively  few. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  at  $3?  A.  I could  not  give  you  the  exact 

number. 

Q.  About?  A.  There  is  about  10  per  cent  earn  less  than  $10. 

Q.  That  isn’t  what  we  want.  A.  I cannot  give  the  exact  number. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  this  fact:  Are  there  any  now  receiving  $3  or  less? 
A.  There  are  some  $3  or  less;  I don’t  know  of  any  that  are  less. 

Q.  Now,  do  these  $3  employes  devote  their  entire  time  to  the  busi- 
ness, coming  on  Monday  morning  and  quitting  Saturday  evening?  A. 

They  are  there  6 days  a week. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  are  there?  A.  A very  small  number. 

Q.  A hundred?  A.  No. 

Q.  Fifty?  A.  Less  than  thirty-five;  less  than  twenty. 

Q.  At  $4,  how  many  would  you  say  you  have?  A.  I cannot  give 
you  the  exact  division  there;  about  10  per  cent  of  them  earn  less  than  $5. 

Q.  I already  told  you  what  I wanted.  A.  I haven’t  the  information. 

Q.  Are  there  100?  A.  It  would  be  merely  guesswork  on  that. 

Q.  Are  there  50?  A.  I cannot  be  exact;  about  10  per  cent  earn  less 
than  $5. 

Q.  Now,  you  will  come  to  the  next  meeting  of  this  Committee, 
after  having  consulted  your  legal  talent?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  be  prepared  to  answer  questions,  and  willing  to  come  with 
a list  of  the  employes  and  the  various  salaries  they  receive?  A.  I shall 
be  glad  to  furnish  them. 

Q.  Now,  you  haven’t  any  objection  to  the  personnel  of  this  Committee? 
A.  None  whatsoever. 

Q.  You  would  just  as  soon  testify  before  this  Committee  as  any  other 
Committee  that  you  could  think  of?  A.  So  far  as  I know,  yes. 

Q.  Would  you  say,  from  your  knowledge  of  existing  conditions  in 
Chicago,  that  a young  woman,  such  a young  woman  as  you  would  care  to 
employ  in  your  business,  what  would  you  say  would  be  the  minimum 
amount  of  money  upon  which  such  a young  woman  can  support  life  and 
be  respectable?  A.  I am  not  qualified  to  answer  that.  I have  no  infor- 
mation. I am  not  competent  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Mr.  Schwab,  some  of  the  things  you  know  you  won’t  tell  us,  and 
other  things  you  don’t  know  and  can’t  tell  us.  A.  You  are  assuming 
that. 

Q.  Some  of  the  things  you  know  are  facts;  you  know  the  price  a young 
woman  pays  for  her  room  and  board?  A.  I certainly  do  not;  if  I did. 


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I would  answer  the  question. 

Q.  You  know  what  it  costs  to  get  board?  A.  I do  not. 

Q.  Have  you  a restaurant  in  your  establishment?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Supposing  a young  woman  bought  21  meals  in  your  place,  what 
would  she  have  to  pay  for  them?  A.  It  would  depend  exactly  on  what 
she  ordered. 

Q.  Suppose  she  ordered  the  necessary  plain  food.  A.  I cannot  an- 
swer that;  it  would  depend  on  what  she  would  order. 

Q.  Will  you  come  before  this  Committee  next  week  and  furnish  us 
with  a list  of  what  it  would  cost  eight  or  ten  average  young  women  in 
your  establishment  to  live?  A.  I do  not  know  that  I could  furnish  that. 

Q.  Will  you  call  before  you  eight  or  ten  of  your  young  women  and 
ask  them  about  it,  and  bring  the  Committee  the  result?  A.  I will  tell 
you  what  the  eight  or  ten  say. 

Q.  And  cover  all  the  items?  A.  If  you  will  furnish  me  with  a list 
of  the  items,  I will  attend  to  the  matter. 

Q.  You  know  what  the  items  are  that  go  to  make  up  such  a list: 
room  and  board,  and  so  forth?  A.  I can  easily  ascertain  them,  I pre- 
sume. 

Q.  You  will  try  to  get  them.  A.  Oh,  certainly,  yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  suggest,  Mr.  Chairman,  in  view  of  the 
fact  that  Mr.  Schwab  is  not  already  supplied  with  information  on  this 
matter,  that  he  be  excused  at  this  time. 

THE  WITNESS:  You  will  give  me  a list  of  what  you  want? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  And  at  that  time  will  you  bring  in  a statement 
showing  the  profits  earned  by  your  store  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I 
will  consult  somebody  on  that,  as  well  as  my  associates. 

Q.  But  you  at  that  time  will  have  consulted  your  associates  and 
counsel,  and  you  must  be  prepared  to  furnish  this  information,  or  hold 
yourself  in  contempt  to  the  Committee?  A.  I think  so. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  are  excused  until  the  next  meeting  of  this 
Committee,  which  will  probably  be  next  week. 

Mr.  Albert  Ellinger’s  Testimony. 

ALBERT  ELLINGER,  called  as  a witness  by  the  Committee,  having 
been  first  duy  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Albert  Ellinger. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Merchandise  manager  of  the  Bos- 

ton Store. 

Q.  That  is  owned  by  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Illinois  corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  acquainted  with  the  wages  paid  the  women  in  that 
store?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I have  investigated  it. 

Q.  You  are  acquainted  with  the  profits  earned  by  that  store,  in  a 
general  way?  A.  Maybe,  in  a general  w^ay. 

Q.  Within  the  range  of  a million  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  women  are  employed  at  the  Boston  tore?  A.  1,658. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  pay  of  those  1,658  women?  A.  I haven’t 

averaged  it,  but  I have  the  pay  for  each  clerk,  and  the  pay  of  each 

department. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  any  woman?  A.  $3. 

Q.  How  many  get  $3  per  week?  A.  12. 

Q.  What  is  the  next,  $3.50?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  at  $3.50?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  exactly; 
just  a few,  very  few. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


275 


Q.  How  many  girls  are  getting  $5  or  less  per  week?  A.  We  have 
what  is  known  as  the  bundle  wrappers;  those  girls  are  14  and  16  years  old. 

Q.  What  is  the  total  number  of  girls  getting  $5  or  less  in  all  depart- 
ments; in  what  order  have  you  got  it  there?  A.  Here  is  a list  that 
tells  it,  Governor. 

(Witness  hands  paper  to  the  Chairman.) 

THE  WITNESS  (continuing):  down  below  (indicating).  The 

first  numbers  are  the  department  of  A,  B and  C,  and  so  on;  those  that  live 
at  home  and  those  that  board. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I am  afraid  that  this  will  require  considerable 
studying  on  the  part  of  the  Committee.  It  is  a very  interesting  table, 
but  we  cannot  take  it  in  at  a glance.  What  is  the  highest  salary  you  pay 
any  of  your  woman  workers?  A.  The  buyers  or  workers? 

Q.  Any  women  that  work?  A.  Five  thousand  a year. 

Q.  By  the  way,  where  was  this  meeting  of  the  State  Street  Mer- 
chants’ Association  held?  A.  I wouldn’t  like  to  answer  that  question 
now. 

Q.  You  will  answer  it  a little  later?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  you  pay  some  of  your  women  five  thousand  a year?  A.  Yes, 
we  have  six  women  we  pay  $425  a week  to. 

Q.  What  did  they  start  at — $3?  A.  All  started  at  three  but  one, 
and  she  started  at  four  dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  long  did  it  take  them  to  work  up?  A.  Fifteen  or  sixteen 
years,  some  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  now  any  women  who  started  15  or  16  years  ago  at  $3? 
A.  No,  sir.  I think  we  pay  the  highest  wages  for  women  in  a depart- 
ment store  of  anywhere  in  the  United  States.  I think  the  figures  will 
verify  it. 

Q.  You,  I presume,  are  willing  to  testify  as  to  the  profits  made  by 
your  concern  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I beg  to  be  excused  at 
present. 

Q.  You  will  after  consultation  and  conference?  A.  Yes,  but  I want 
a consultation  and  conference  regarding  that. 

Q.  You  have  been  attending,  of  course,  the  sessions  of  this  Commit- 
tee for  the  last  several  days?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  until  this  moment  you  had  no  idea  that  you  would  be  asked 
that  question?  A.  No,  I heard  it  right  along.  I heard  the  question 
asked  several  times,  but  I would  like  to  be  excused  until  I consult 
counsel. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  other  merchants  on  State  street?  A.  I have 

not. 

Q.  Haven’t  even  gossiped  about  it?  A.  I am  here  to  help  the  Com- 
mittee all  in  my  power. 

Q.  I want  you  to  help  us,  and  I am  going  to  ask  Senator  Juul  to 
co-operate  in  it.  A.  If  anything  is  wrong  with  our  concern,  I want  to 
rectify  it. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  How  many  women  in  your  business  are  receiving  a salary  of  less 
than  $8  per  week — that  is,  a permanently  fixed  income  which  comes 
approximately  to  that?  A.  I think  we  have  75  or  more,  but  that  is  a 
guess. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  say  to  this  Committee  that  you  are  employing 
or  paying  approximately  only  75  employes  who  are  below  $8?  A.  That 
is,  these  women. 

Q.  I mean  all  classes  of  employes.  A.  I have  a list  here  of  what 
they  make. 

Q.  There  isn’t  anything  in  the  list;  do  you  want  to  consult  counsel 
about  that  first?  A.  No,  sir. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Now,  give  us  the  lowest  paid  group  of  women  you  have.  A.  I 
will  take  department  A.  We  have  women  in  that  department  who  make: 
One  13,  one  23,  one  28,  one  32,  one  35,  one  42  dollars  per  week. 

Q.  How  would  that  average  up  for  a year  in  that  department?  A.  I 
have  here  a list  of  what  was  done  last  week.  I took  another  week. 

Q.  Give  us  some  examples  of  cases  of  the  lowest  figures  in  the  list? 
A.  We  have  in  the  hardware  two  at  $5,  the  highest  in  the  hardware  is 
$22,  female  help;  in  the  clothing,  lowest  $11. 

Q.  Is  that  the  list  of  women?  A.  Yes,  sir,  all  women. 

Q.  Eleven  dollars  is  the  lowest?  A.  Yes;  the  highest  $35.  In  the 
drugs,  lowest  $15;  highest  $18. 

Q.  You  have  no  women  in  tlie  drug  department  getting  lower  than 
$15?  A.  We  work  on  salary  and  commission,  and  this  is  for  this  par- 
ticular week,  what  they  made.  I have  last  week’s  list  made  up  today. 

Q.  Let  us  get  the  low  figures  then.  A.  Take  it  in  the  hats  and 
caps,  one  got  $15  and  one  got  $7. 

Q.  You  are  talking  about  sales-ladies?  A.  Yes.. 

Q.  What  are  the  groups  below  the  sales-ladies  that  you  have  got 
there?  A.  The  cashiers  get  $7.50,  and  the  inspectors 

Q.  How  many  are  there  of  those?  A.  That  I could  not  saj'. 

Q.  There  isn’t  anything  lower  than  a cashier,  is  there — $7.50?  A. 
Yes,  but  I do  not  believe  anj"  of  the  cashiers  get  less  than  $7.50. 

Q.  You  are  stating  that  as  your  belief?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I can  make 
up  a correct  list  of  each  and  every  one. 

Q.  What  department,  in  your  business,  is  down  to  3 or  4 or  5 dollars? 
A.  We  have  12  cash  grils  who  get  $4.  They  are  promoted  to  inspectors 
in  3 or  4 months,  if  capable.  The  bundle  wrappers  get  $4.50.  Those  are 
the  girls  from  14  to  16  years  of  age. 

Q.  How  many  bundle  wrappers  have  you  got?  A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  Well,  about?  A.  I could  not  say  as  to  that.  We  have  235 
inspectors  who  live  at  home;  they  get  $6  a week. 

Q.  They  get  how  much?  A.  $6,  and  they  live  at  home. 

Q.  How  much  money  would  it  take  to  lift  the  entire  low  wage  girl 
proposition  up  so  the  minimum  wage  would  be  $8;  it  would  not  take  much, 
would  it?  A.  Well,  it  would  not  take  so  much,  and  if  you  gentlemen 
would  recommend  it,  we  would  certainly  do  it. 

Q.  We  strongly  recommend  it,  Mr.  Ellinger.  A.  I mean,  when 
you  get  through  with  this  investigation. 

Q.  Do  you  think  there  is  any  objection  on  the  part  of  your  firm 
to  taking  this  situation  in  hand,  and  lifting  all  young  woman  up,  who 
are  getting  $8  and  less  to  a basis  of  at  least  $8?  A.  Well,  it  would, 
of  course,  if  a small  girl  comes  to  work  at  $3,  and  lives  at  home,  we 
cannot  very  well  pay  her  $8,  because  there  would  be  no  inducement  for 
her  to  work  up.  But  after  you  get  through  this  investigation  a little 
further,  and  you  think  we  should  pay  some  of  our  employes  more,  we 
are  willing  to  start  at  once,  and  not  wait  for  a law. 

Q.  Why  wait  for  us  to  get  through?  This  is  a good  time  to  start, 
Mr.  Ellinger.  A.  Why,  because  we  want  to  treat  them  justly,  and  you 
want  to  treat  them  justly.  We  would  not  want  to  pay  so  much  more 
than  our  neighbors. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  your  neighbors  would  be  willing  to  follow  3’our 
example?  A.  Well,  we  are  willing. 

Q.  I am  willing  to  drop  you  as  a witness,  if  that  is  your  spirit. 
A.  Well,  that  is  the  spirit  I am  in. 

Q.  _ Wouldn’t  it  be  a good  business  advertisement,  just  as  a business 
proposition,  for  the  merchants  of  this  town  to  start  in  doing  that?  A. 
Mrs.  Netcher’s  idea  is  to  treat  all  the  help  humanely,  and  right  and  just, 
and  she  believes  in  it. 

Q.  Have  you  a system  of  fines  in  your  establishment?  A.  Not 
much. 


* 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


277 


Q.  You  say  you  know  of  no  system  of  fines  in  your  business,  and 
you,  in  your  capacity  as  business  manager,  would  have  that  information? 
A.  I would,  but  I never  heard  of  it. 

Q.  You  would  be  free  to  say,  if  there  was?  A.  Yes,  but  I never 
heard  of  it. 

Q.  If  there  was  a system  of  fines,  would  you  fine  a young  woman  a 
greater  sum  for  the  half  hour  than  you  would  pay  her  for  the  same 
half  hour,  if  she  worked?  A.  No^  sir,  I wouldn’t.  I wouldn’t  allow  it, 
and  Mrs.  Netcher  wouldn’t  allow  it. 

Q.  You  are  pretty  sure,  that  this  is  not  being  done?  A.  I never 
heard  of  it. 

.SENATOR  TOSSEY;  What  percentage  of  commissions  do  you  have? 
A.  It  deoends  on  the  department.  Senator.  After  we  pay  $3,  $4  a week, 
it  depends  on  the  sales  they  make.  I believe  that  the  employes  of  the 
Boston  store  have  on  deposit  in  the  banks  more  than  a million  dollars. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Does  that  include  those  that  are  getting  $5,000 
a year?  A.  No. 

Q.  The  $3  a week  girls?  A.  The  $3  a week  girls  have  their  sav- 
ings. We  have  there  a lady  in  charge  who  acts  as  a mother  to  the  help, 
and  who  tries  to  do  everything  for  their  benefit  we  can  consistent  with 
the  business. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : In  justice  to  yourself,  will  you  furnish  the 
Committee  with  a list  of  the  salaries  paid  to  the  employes  and  also  a list 
of  the  commissions  and  percentages  of  commissions?  A.  You  can  very 
readily  see  from  this  list,  who  gets  the  two  or  three  dollars  a week. 
Here  is  the  commissions.  We  will  let  you  keep  this  if  you  like. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Let  us  have  it,  and  we  will  put  it  in  the 
record. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  offer  to  show  this  Committee  the  salaries 
and  commissions?  A.  I have  it  right  here. 

Q.  This  is A.  These  are  the  sales-ladies,  and  on  this  very  list 

are  the  inspectors,  and  a list  of  what  we  call  the  overhead  expenses. 

Q.  Will  you  furnish  that  to  the  Committee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Ellinger. 

Q.  You  and  I had  a talk  in  the  hall  before  you  came  in  here?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  going  to  surprise  us  today?  A.  I don’t  know  that 
I surprised  you. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  you  would  be  getting  down  to  it,  if  you  would 
just  go  ahead  and  raise  the  salaries?  A.  Mrs.  Netcher  is  in  New  York. 
When  she  comes  home  she  will  take  it  up. 

Q.  Do  you  think  she  will  do  that?  A.  I think  she  will  do  anything 
she  can  consistently  along  the  lines  you  mention. 

Q.  You  think  if  she  would,  you  would  be  willing  to?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
And  I will  be  glad  to  have  you  come  to  the  store,  and  interview  the  help, 
see  the  conditions  and  see  what  we  are  doing  for  the  help. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  keep  an  office  in  the  store?  A.  Yes, 
and  we  have  a lady  who  comes  there  and  looks  after  the  girls.  She  is 
known  as  a civic  worker.  Her  business  is  when  a girl  gets  sick,  she  takes 
care  of  her.  We  have  a benevolent  association  for  the  girls.  Here  is 
the  list  we  had  last  week,  last  month. 

Q.  Is  that  money  that  you  have  given  out?  A.  For  benefits  to  the 
help.  Here  is  something  that  might  interest  you  gentlemen,  because  it 
is  ruch  an  unusual  thing. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  a benevolent  association?  A.  Oh, 

yes. 

Q.  How  is  that  sustained?  A.  That  is  sustained — the  store  started 
it  with  a thousand  dollars. 


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Q.  The  Boston  Store  gave  a thousand  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir,  on 
the  12th  day  of  December,  we  took  in  in  premiums,  including  our  thousand 
dollars,  $3,449. 

Q.  “Premiums,”  what  does  that  mean?  A.  Each  one  pays  so  much 
a month. 

Q.  The  store  pays  this  benevolent  association  you  are  talking  about. 
Is  that  another  enterprise  on  the  part  of  the  store,  which  helps  the  girls 
and  boys  who  are  working  there,  and  your  firm  gives  one-quarter  while 
they  give  three-quarters?  A.  Well,  when  there  is  any  deficiency,  we 
make  it  good.  We  have  a deficit  coming  now. 

Q.  We  are  interested  in  philantrophy.  I want  to  ask  you  if  this 
is  true,  this  statement  made  to  this  Committee:  “I  do  not  know  exactlj' 
how  many  of  the  girls  feel,  but  some  of  them  feel  that  they  could  not 
afford  to  be  a member  of  this  association,  but  when  the  time  comes  for 
them  to  hire  female  help,  we  are  compelled  to  sign  a slip  saying  that  we 
are  willing  to  become  members  of  this  association,  and  to  pay  a certain 
amount  to  it  before  the  store  will  give  us  the  week’s  salarj-.”  Is  that  true? 
A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  You  believe  that  to  be  true?  A.  I could  not  saj'  without  veri- 
fying it  through  the  cashier. 

Q.  Will  you  verify  it  before  you  next  appear  before  this  Committee, 
and  then  say  whether  it  is  true  or  not?  A.  I will.  Governor. 

Q.  Is  it  true  that  this  association,  this  benevolent  association  of 
which  your  store  is  so  proud,  is  about  to  give  a ball  or  some  other  kind 
of  entertainment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  to  be  the  price  per  ticket  for  that  ball  or  entertainment? 
A.  I don’t  know;  I haven’t  charge  of  it.  There  are  three  gentlemen  in 
the  store  who  have  charge  of  it;  three  on  the  committee. 

Q.  The  store  hasn’t  anything  to  do  with  that?  A.  I don’t  know. 
I only  heard  of  it  in  the  store,  that  they  were  going  to  give  a ball.  The 
committee  has  its  own  officers,  and  they  act  under  its  officers. 

Q.  Are  the  girls  in  your  store  to  be  compelled  to  pay  $1  for  a ticket? 
A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Have  any  of  the  girls  threatened  to  talk  to  the  State’s  Attorney, 
if  forced  to  pay  the  dollar?  A.  I never  heard  of  it;  that  is  news  to  me 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  of  the  girls  consulting  the  State’s  Attorney 
of  Cook  County?  A.  I have  not. 

Q.  Were  they  threatened  with  dismissal  if  they  did  not  buy  a ticket? 
A.  I can  assure  you  that  nobody  will  be  dismissed  if  they  do  not  buy 
a ticket,  not  one. 

Q.  If  any  such  methods  were  used  by  your  subordinates,  it  could 
by  you  be  stopped?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  these  girls,  who  are  getting  $3  a week,  belong  to  the  asso- 
ciation? A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  They  do  not  have  to  belong  A.  I could  not  say.  I am  only 
an  honorary  member. 

Q.  Then  this  doesn’t  belong  to  the  store,  it  belongs  to  the  em- 
ployes? A.  It  belongs  to  the  employes. 

Q.  Well,  when  we  get  an  institution  that  belongs  to  the  emploj'es, 
let  us  not  claim  the  credit  for  it.  Let  us  give  the  credit  where  it  belongs. 
A.  I don’t  want  any  credit. 

Q.  You  were  telling  us  how  nicely  you  treated  the  people.  A.  We 
do  a good  deal  for  them,  as  you  can  see  for  yourself.  We  invite  you 
all  over  there. 

Q.  We  do  not  question  that.  I do  not  intend  to  examine  you 
further  than  this  one  question,  which  I will  ask  you,  and  it  is  about 
the  net  profits,  and  that  is  a vital  question  in  this  investigation.  Unless 
;here  are  further  questions,  j^ou  are  excused.  A.  I have  things  coming 
up  all  the  time.  I can  show  you  what  happened  the  other  day,  which 
shows  that  we  are  trying  to  do  the  best  we  can.  (Witness  hands  a book 
to  the  chairman.) 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


279 


THE  CHAIRMAN:  Thank  you.  We  have  here  the  by-laws  of  the 
Boston  Store  Mutual  Benefit  Association,  and  I find  that  all  persons 
now  employed  by  the  Boston  Store  shall  be  considered  as  members,  etc., 
that  the  membership  is  divided  into  classes,  according  to  the  amount  of 
their  salary,  per  week.  Now,  may  I ask  if  you  ever  saw  this  book,  or 
one  similar  to  it?  A.  I have. 

Q.  And  it  has  been  passed  upon  by  you  or  the  other  officials?  A. 
No,  sir. 

' Q.  The  statements  in  this  book  are  very  probably  true.  A.  I have 
never  read  the  book  through. 

Q.  Did  you  glance  through  it?  A.  No,  sir,  except  seeing  my  name 
on  the  back. 

Q.  Then  this  association  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  store.  Now, 
the  girls  in  class  E shall  pay  ten  cents  per  month.  How  do  they  enforce 
the  collection  of  that  ten  cents?  A.  I really  don’t  know.  My  attention 
was  called  to  this,  because  the  Association  loses  money  and  somebody 
will  have  to  pay  that  money. 

Q.  You  are  just  one  of  the  philanthropists?  A.  No,  Mrs.  Netcher 
is  the  philanthropist. 

Q.  A girl  can  work  for  your  store  and  not  be  a member  of  that 
association?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  that.  Nobody  ever  came  to  me  to  com- 
plain about  the  association. 

Q.  You,  yourself,  introduced  the  subject  of  this  association  to  this 
Committee?  A.  I simply  say  we  have  one. 

THE  CH.\IRMAN:  Just  a second.  I am  interested  in  this  mutual 
benefit  society. 

THE  WITNESS:  I am  glad  you  are. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Where  does  the  money  go  to?  A.  I under- 
stand it  goes  to  the  sick  and  the  people  w'ho  need  it. 

Q.  Is  there  any  surplus?  A.  Not  so  far  as  I know.  There  wasn’t 
in  the  last  statement  given  to  me. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Who  is  the  custodian  of  the  funds?  A.  Three 
members  in  the  store.  Mr.  Weissenbach,  who  is  a brother  of  the  lawyer 
by  that  name;  Mr.  Woodley,  in  your  district,  a very  fine  man,  and  the 
third  one  is  Mr.  Burdock. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  are  the  qualifications  of  the  president 
of  the  organization?  A.  I don’t  know,  it  must  be  in  the  by-laws. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  suggest,  Governor,  that  we  wait  until  the 
next  sitting  and  subpoena  one  of  the  young  men  who  are  the  apparent 
managers  of  this  benefit  association? 

THE  WITNESS:  Mr.  Weissenbach  is  the  secretary. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  him  be  subpoenaed. 

THE.  WITNESS:  You  do  not  need  to  subpoena  him.  I will  have 
him  come  without  a subpoena. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  Committee  stands  adjourned  until  further 
notice. 

Thereupon  the  Committee  adjourned  until  further  notice. 


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SESSION  IX 


The  Committee  convenes  at  Peoria,  Illinois,  and  questions  sev- 
eral manufacturers,  merchants  and  other  employers  of  girls  for 
information  concerning  wages  paid  and  the  factors  that  determine 
wage  scales.  Two  girls  detail  the  circumstances  responsible  for 
their  disgrace.  Testimony  of: 

Mr.  W.  E.  Persons,  manager,  Larkin  & Company; 

Mr.  Frank  J.  Young,  manager,  F.  W.  Woolworth  (&  Company; 

Mr.  Henry  C.  Block,  president,  Schipper  & Block,  dry  goods; 

Mr.  Edward  C.  Heidrick  and  Mr.  Richard  Heidrick,  twine  and 
cordage  manufacturers; 

C— S ; 

P J . 

Peoria,  111.,  Saturday,  March  15,  1913. 
The  Committee  convened  at  the  hour  of  10  o’clock  A.  M.,  in  the 
convention  hall  of  the  Jefferson  Hotel.  Thereupon  the  following  pro- 
ceedings were  had : 


Members  Present: 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara,  Chairman,  presiding. 

Senator  Beall. 

Senator  Tossey. 

I Mr.  W.  E.  Persons’  Testimony. 

. W.  E.  PERSONS,  a witness  summoned  and  appearing  before  this 
I Committee,  being  now  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated,  and 
1 testified  as  follows: 

I 

i EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

! Q.  You  may  state  your  name,  for  the  record,  if  you  please.  A.  W.  E. 
j Persons. 

I Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manager  of  Larkin  Company  of 
|i  Illinois. 

Q.  Is  that  business  located  here  in  the  city  of  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  the  business  the  company  is  engaged  in?  A. 
In  the  manufacture  of  soaps,  toilet  articles,  and  sundries. 

^ Q.  As  manager  of  Larkin  & Co,  you  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid 
- to  the  girls  who  are  employed  by  that  concern?  A.  I am. 

Q.  And  you  have  the  power  both  to  hire  and  to  discharge  the 
• women  so  employed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

!‘  Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee,  Mr.  Persons,  how  many  girls  and 

in  women  are  employed  by  the  firm  of  Larkin  & Co.?  A.  Do  you  mean 
at  Peoria? 

. _ Q.  Yes,  at  Peoria.  A.  At  the  present  time,  in  the  Peoria  estab- 
; lishment,  there  are  316. 

Q.  There  are  at  the  present  time  316  girls  and  women  altogether? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  has  been  the  lowest  weekly  wage,  Mr.  Persons,  that  has 
I ever  been  paid  to  any  girl  or  woman  employed  by  your  company — at 
Peoria?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  any  girl,  to  your  knowledge,  less  than  $5  a 


281 


282 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


week?  A.  Well,  when  we  first  started  operations  here,  perhaps,  half  a 
dozen  or  so  were  paid  four  dollars  and  a half — I think. 

Q.  You  never  have  paid  any  girl,  then,  less  than  four  dollars  and  a 
half?  A.  Not  to  my  recollection. 

Q.  Your  recollection  would  be  conclusive  on  that  matter,  would 
it  not?  A.  Yes,  I think  so. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  paid  any  girls  or  women  employed  at 
the  present  time  by  your  concern,  here  in  Peoria?  A.  The  highest  wage 
that  we  are  paying  now  is  seventeen  dollars  a week. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  that  is  paid  by  your  establishment? 
A.  That  I could  not  tell  you,  offhand,  without  looking  it  up. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  employed  at  five  dollars  a week  at  present?  A. 
I haven’t  the  figures  at  hand  and  I could  not  state  the  number. 

Q.  Just  roughly,  how  many  would  you  estimate,  in  round  numbers? 
A.  We  start  the  girls,  unless  they  go  to  the  school,  at  six  dollars. 

Q.  What  are  thej^  paid  if  they  enter  what  you  term  the  school?  A. 
If  they  go  into  the  school,  we  start  them  at  five  dollars  a week,  and  as 
soon  as  they  can  do  some  work  alone,  we  pay  them  six  dollars. 

Q.  That  is  the  first  increase  they  get?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  girls  making  five  dollars  a week  are  in  a school?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a school  is  that?  A.  It  is  a school  that  we  main- 
tain for  girls  entering  our  employ,  and  it  is  maintained  for  the  purpose 
of  preparing  and  instructing  the  girls  for  the  duties  of  the  office. 

Q.  For  how  lotig  a time,  as  a general  average,  do  they  remain  in  that 
school?  A.  That  varies  greatly.  They  may  remain  in  the  school  only 
a month,  or  they  might  remain  there  for  six  months. 

Q.  A girl  might  remain  in  the  school  for  six  months,  you  say?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Might  she  remain  there  for  six  years?  A.  Oh,  no,  we  would  re- 
move her  before  that  time. 

Q.  Six  months,  then,  is  the  customary  time  they  remain  in  that 
school?  A.  No,  it  is  about  the  longest. 

Q.  The  maximum  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  have  no  arbitrary  rule  as  to  the  time  they  remain  there? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  girls  actually  remain  there  longer  than  six  months-,  in  some 
cases?  A.  No,  I would  not  say  longer  than  six  months;  no,  sir,  that 
would  be  the  longest. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  employed  at  six  dollars  a week  at 
this  time?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  the  number,  offhand.  I can  get  you 
those  figures,  but  I did  not  come  prepared  to  state  them  now. 

Q.  Can  you  get  those  figures  and  give  them  to  us  this  afternoon?  A. 
Yes,  I can  do  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  I would  suggest.  Senator  Tossey  and  Sena- 
tor Beall,  that  we  should  have  the  figures,  as  further  examination  is  rather 
useless  until  we  do  have  them. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Yes.  Could  j^on  make  an  approximation  of 
the  figures  at  this  time? 

WITNESS:  No. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Can  they  state  the  number  of  girls  employed 
and  the  wages  paid,  in  the  memorandum  you  will  obtain? 

WITNESS:  Yes,  I will  get  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  get  us  that  information  and  return 
here  at  two  o’clock  this  afternoon? 

WITNESS:  We  close  at  one  o’clock  on  Saturdays,  and  I can  send 
and  get  the  figures  right  away.  I can  have  the  information  for  you  inside 
of  an  hour  from  this  time. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


283 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Then  you  will  be  excused  until  eleven! 
o’clock. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  Frank  J.  Young’s  Testimony. 

FRANK  J.  YOUNG,  a witness  summoned  and  appearing  before  the 
Commission,  being  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and 
testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Frank  J.  Young. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Manager  of  the  Woolworth  Five  and 
Ten  Cent  Store. 

Q.  In  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  to  girls  in  your  store?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I am. 

Q.  You  have  it  in  your  power  both  to  hire  and  discharge  the  girls 
so  employed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  employed  at  the  present  time  in  your  store? 
A.  We  have  31  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  or  woman  employed 
there?  A.  Four  dollars. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  any  lower  wage  than  that  to  any  girl  or 
woman  employed  by  you?  A.  Not  since  I have  been  in  the  store. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  store?  A.  A little  over  two 
years. 

Q.  Then  you  can  state  positively  to  this  Committee  that  four  dollars 
is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  or  woman  during  your  connection 
with  that  store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  would  not  have  been  possible  for  any  lower  wage  to  have 
been  paid  without  coming  to  your  knowledge,  would  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I 
don’t  think  so. 

Q.  This  store  is  owned  by  whom?  A.  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Co. 

Q.  A corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  what  state?  A.  New  York. 

Q.  And  you  report  to  whom?  A.  To  the  Chicago  office. 

Q.  Who  is  in  charge  of  the  Chicago  office  of  your  corporation? 
A.  C.  C.  Griswold. 

Q.  And  you  report  to  Mr.  Griswold?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you,  yourself,  regulate  the  wages  paid  to  girls  and  women 
employes,  or  are  you  regulated  by  instructions  from  the  Chicago  office? 
A.  There  is  nothing  said,  very  much,  about  what  we  should  do. 

Q.  Suppose  that  you  were  to  pay  ten  dollars  a week,  would  that 
be  reported  to  the  Chicago  office?  A.  It  would  be  reported,  yes.  Each 
girl’s  report  goes  to  the  Chicago  office. 

Q.  In  the  Chicago  office,  they  have  the  payroll  and  if  you  were  paying 
a girl  more  money  than  they  approved  of,  you  would  hear  from  it? 
A.  We  never  heard  of  it. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  any  girl  as  high  as  ten  dollars  a week? 
A.  We  have  one  at  the  present  time  to  whom  we  are  paying  ten  dollars 
a week. 

Q.  That  is  the  highest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  in  your  store?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  has  she  been  in  tbe  employ  of  your  company?  A.  I 
think  about  three  years.  She  w'as  here  before  I came  here. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  employed  at  a salary  or  wage  of  four 
dollars  a week?  A.  I could  not  say,  off-hand. 

Q.  Would  you  say,  most  of  the  girls?  A.  No,  I should  say,  prob- 
ably there  are  ten. 


284 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  wage?  A.  $4.50. 

Q.  How  many  at  that  figure?  A.  You  understand  this  is  only 

guesswork.  I am  not  giving  you  positive  figures. 

Q.  Yes.  A.  About  f.ve. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  figure?  A.  That  will  be  five  dollars. 

Q.  About  how  many  at  that  figure?  A.  I presume  10  or  12  girls. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  next  figure?  A.  We  have  one  girl  at  $7.50. 

One  at  $9.  I am  not  sure  whether  there  is  anything  in  between  those 
figures  or  not. 

Q.  In  other  words,  Mr.  Young,  of  the  31  girls  and  women  employed 
by  your  concern,  25  or  thereabouts,  get  five  dollars  a week  or  less? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  five  dollars  a week  is  almost  your  maximum  wage,  unless 
a girl  shows  unusual  ability,  to  entitle  her,  in  exceptional  cases,  to  a 
little  higher  salary  than  $5?  A.  We  have  two  or  three  girls  getting 
more  than  that. 

Q.  May  I ask  you,  Mr.  Young,  for  the  information  of  this  Com- 
mittee, is  it  your  instruction  from  the  head  office  in  Chicago,  or  else- 
where, are  never  to  pay  more  than  five  dollars  a week,  without  reporting 
it  to  the  head  office  and  getting  their  consent?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  not  a fact?  A.  No,  sir,  it  has  never  been  brought  to 
my  notice  at  any  time. 

Q.  Why  do  you  not  pay  your  girls  more  than  five  dollars  a week? 
A.  Because  it  is  all  a great  many  of  them  are  worth  to  us.  Most  of 
our  girls  are  quite  young  girls,  ranging  from  16  to  18  years  of  age,  and 
they  are  girls  that  live  at  home.  They  are  not  competent  salesladies. 
Another  thing,  we  have  some  other  things  in  regard  to  the  salaries  which 
are  paid  these  girls  that  help  out.  For  instance,  if  a girl  has  been  with 
us  a year,  for  a Christmas  present  she  gets  $5,  and  if  she  has  been  with 
us  two  years  she  gets  $10;  if  she  has  been  with  us  for  five  years  she 
gets  $25  at  Christmas,  and  $25  for  every  year  she  stays  with  us  after  that 
as  a Christmas  present.  From  the  first  day  of  December  to  Christmas, 
during  the  rush  season,  when  the  work  is  hard,  the  employes  get  a ten 
per  cent  raise,  and  the  last  week  before  Christmas  no  girl  gets  less  than 
$6  a week.  They  also  have  a vacation.  After  they  have  been  with  us 
a year,  they  get  two  weeks’  vacation,  and  pay  for  one  week.  After  a 
girl  is  with  us  for  two  years  she  gets  the  two  w'eeks’  vacation  with  pay 
for  both  weeks. 

Q.  These  benefits.  Air.  Young,  are  peculiar  to  your  store,  or  do  the 
same  benefits  apply  to  every  Woolworth  store?  A:  I think  they  do. 
They  are  supposed  to  apply  to  every  branch  store,  if  the  manager  lives 
up  to  the  arrangement. 

Q.  These  benefits  are  a part  of  your  instructions,  _ the  general  in- 
structions you  receive,  from  the  head  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  had  no  instructions  at  any  time  from  the  office, 
in  Chicago  or  elsewhere,  regarding  the  wages  you  are  to  pay  your  girls 
and  women  in  your  employ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  it  cost  a girl  to  live  in  Peoria,  at  the  present  time? 
What  in  your  estimation  would  be  the  lowest  amount  per  week  on  which 
a working  girl  could  live  respectably?  A.  That  would  depend  on  whether 
she  was  living  at  home  or  whether  she  is  out  in  the  world  making  a 
living  for  herself. 

Q.  This  Committee  sees  no  difference  between  the  girl  who  lives 
at  home  with  her  relatives,  and  a girl  who  does  not  live  at  home,  but 
in  order  that  you  may  answer  the  question  clearly,  I will  ask  you  what 
is  the  least  amount  upon  which  a girl  who  is  not  living  at  home  can 
support  herself  in  the  city  of  Peoria?  A.  I could  not  sa}^ 

O.  Would  you  say  that  she  could  do  it  on  ten  dollars  a week? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  she  could  do  it  on  less  than  that  amount? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  less?  A.  Considerabh'  less. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


285 


Q.  You  have  no  idea  then  as  to  the  figure  upon  which  a working 
girl  could  support  herself  respectably  in  Peoria?  A.  I have  not. 

Q.  How  much  does  a furnished  room,  a good  clean  room,  cost  a 
week?  A.  If  the  girl  were  to  pay  the  whole  expense,  I suppose  $1.50 
or  $2.  Very  often  two  girls  divide  that  expense. 

Q.  Figuring  that  expense  at  $1.50  a week  for  the  room,  how  much 
would  the  board  cost?  A.  I should  say  two  dollars  and  a half,  to  three 
dollars,  probably. 

Q.  Then  you  would  estimate  the  cost  at  two  dollars  and  a half  a 
week  for  her  board  and  a dollar  and  a half  a week  for  her  room,  is  that 
correct?  A.  Probably  so. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  a girl  ought  to  put  aside  each  week  for 
her  clothing?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  must  have  some  idea  in  that  direction,  I imagine,  as  to 
what  a girl  should  spend  in  order  to  be  reasonably  neat?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  how  much  would  it  cost  a girl,  working  in  your  store,  to 
keep  herself  up  to  the  degree,  the  standard,  of  neatness  of  appearance 
that  you  expect  of  her?  A.  I don’t  know  what  it  would  cost  her. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  is  a matter  in  which  an  employer  should 
be  interested?  A.  Well,  as  I say,  nearly  all  of  our  girls  live  at  home, 
and  that  is  one  of  the  things  that  we  inquire  into,  and  insist  upon  knowing 
about,  when  we  hire  a girl. 

Q.  Then  you  believe  in  shifting  the  burden  of  the  girl’s  support  on 
the  home?  A.  A girl  from  16  to  18  years  of  age  ought  to  be  at  home 
and  we  don’t  hire  the  girls  unless  they  are  living  at  home,  except  in  cases 
where  they  are  getting  more  money. 

Q.  They  ought  to  be  at  home,  you  think?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A good  many  things  ought  to  be,  in  tbis  world,  that  are  not? 
A.  I suppose  so. 

Q.  Now,  we  have  the  girl  paying  four  dollars  a week  for  her  room 
and  board  and  that  leaves  the  girl  one  dollar  a wek  for  her  laundry, 
clothing,  her  church  contribution,  carfare,  and  a few  amusements  and 
pleasures  that  she  might  want  to  indulge  in  and  gratify.  Do  most  of 
the  girls  working  for  your  store  here  in  Peoria  have  occasion  to  use 
the  street  cars  coming  to  work?  A.  Part  of  them  do. 

Q.  What  proportion?  A.  Perhaps  a quarter  of  them. 

Q.  That  would  be  ten  cents  a day  for  carfare?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  does  the  matter  of  low  wages  paid  to  girls 
have  anything  to  do  with  immorality  among  working  girls?  A.  I think 
not,  or  very  little  if  any. 

Q.  Do  you  think  when  a girl  is  paid  six  or  eight  dollars  a week, 
for  example,  and  finds  that  the  necessities  of  life  cost  her  twelve  dollars 
a week,  she  is  as  well  fortified  to  resist  temptation,  or  as  well  fortified  as  the 
girl  who  is  getting  twelve  dollars  a week,  and  finds  the  necessities  of 
her  existence  cost  but  ten  dollars?  A.  Perhaps  not. 

Q.  Then  you  do  think  that  the  factor  of  low  wages  paid  to  working 
girls  does  have  something  to  do  with  the  vice  question?  A.  Perhaps, 
to  a certain  extent. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  get  to  Chicago,  to  meet  with  the  other  man- 
agers of  the  Woolworth  concern,  the  managers  of  other  branches?  A.  I 
have  been  there  once  or  twice  in  two  years,  that  is  all. 

Q.  There  are  no  regular  stated  meetings  of  the  branch  managers? 
A.  We  had  a convention  last  March,  but  we  haven’t  had  any  since  then. 

Q.  You  are  familiar,  of  course,  with  the  profits  and  losses  on  the 
Peoria  store?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  What  was  the  net  profit  made  by  the  Peoria  store  of  Woolworth 
& Company,  of  which  you  are  manager,  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I 
do  not  believe  that  I am  obliged  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  the  question?  Is  that  your  position? 
A.  I could  not  tell,  anyway,  exactly. 


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Q.  How  long  would  it  take  you  to  consult  your  books  and  get  that 
information?  A.  An  hour  or  so. 

Q.  In  an  hour’s  time  you  can  consult  your  books,  and  also,  if  you 
desire,  consult  some  attorney,  and  then  be  prepared  to  answer  that  ques- 
tion, or  to  enter  upon  our  records  your  refusal  to  answer  the  question? 
A.  Well,  I can  be  prepared  by  two  o’clock  this  afternoon. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Then  the  question  will  be  waived  until  two 
o’clock  this  afternoon.  Senator  Beall,  have  you  any  questions  you  -wish 
to  ask? 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Have  you  a record  of  the  amount  of  sales 
last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  state  the  amount  of  sales  last  year,  off-hand?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  your  people,  with  the  business  they  have  all 
over  the  United  States,  were  to  increase  the  pay  of  your  girls  a dollar 
or  two  dollars  a week,  it  would  materially  decrease  the  profits  of  the 
corporation?  A.  It  would  cut  into  them  to  quite  an  extent. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  concern  could  afford  to  do  that  with  the  profits 
it  makes?  A.  They  could  do  it,  yes. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  Do  you  consider  yourself,  as  an  employer  of 
female  labor,  more  or  less  responsible  for  the  welfare  of  the  girls?  A. 
We  try  to  look  after  them  to  a certain  extent,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  system  of  looking  after  their  welfare  now?  A. 
Nothing  except  the  questions  that  W'C  ask  them. 

(Witness  excused,  to  be  recalled  at  two  o’clock  p.  m.) 

Mr.  Edward  C.  and  Richard  Heidrick’s  Testimony. 

EDWARD  C.  HEIDRICK,  a witness  sumomned  and  appearing  be- 
fore the  Committee,  being  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interro- 
gated and  testified  as  follows; 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  What  is  your  name? 

THE  WITNESS;  Gentlemen,  I would  like  to  have  my  son  testify, 
also,  as  he  knows  about  these  matters. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  We  will  ask  him  to  come  forward  in  a 
moment  or  two. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edward  C.  Heidrick. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manufacturer  of  cordage  and  har- 
vester twine. 

Q.  With  what  corporation,  or  what  company,  are  you  connected? 
A.  The  Peoria  Cordage  Company. 

Q.  What  is  your  position  with  it?  A.  I am  president. 

Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir,  under  the  laws  of  Illinois. 

THE  WITNESS;  For  your  information,  gentlemen,  this  young  man 
is  my  son  Richard,  and  he  has  charge  of  that  department,  while  I am 
more  familiar  with  other  phases  of  the  business. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  We  will  swear  your  son,  also. 

THE  WITNESS;  Then  you  can  obtain  more  definite  information 
on  the  subject. 

(Son  sworn  by  Senator  Beall.  Witnesses  hereafter  designated  as 
Senior  and  Junior.) 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Approximately  how  many  girls  have  j'ou 
employed?  JUNIOR;  Eighty. 

Q.  Eighty  girls  and  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  employ  a larger  number  than  that,  at  any  period  during 
the  year?  A.  It  would  not  vary  to  amount  to  an3dhing,  with  the  seasons. 

Q.  That  is  a fair  average  of  the  number  of  girls  employed?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  that  is  paid  to  any  girl  in  jmur  emplojU 
A.  $6. 


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287 


Q.  May  I ask  your  father  if  that  is,  to  his  knowledge  also,  the 
lowest  wage  that  is  paid  to  any  girl  in  your  employ?  SENIOR:  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  your  knowledge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  any  girl  was  paid  less  than  that,  it  would  come  to  your  knowl- 
edge? A.  Well,  things  are  this  way:  I have  two  sons  and  they  each 
manage  part  of  the  business.  I might  know  of  things,  but  it  might  not 
be  just  at  the  very  moment  a thing  happened,  that  the  information  would 
reach  me.  I make  that  explanation.  However,  I would  eventually  know. 
I am  not  chasing  after  the  payroll  constantly,  because  matters  come  up 
in  a general  way,  as  to  just  what  takes  place,  you  understand. 

(Interrogation  of  Senior  continues.) 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  the  lowest  wage  you  have  ever 
paid  to  any  girl  or  woman  in  your  employ?  SENIOR:  A.  What  time 
do  you  refer  to,  in  asking  that  question? 

Q.  We  will  say,  during  the  last  five  years.  A.  My  judgment  would 
be  that  $6  would  be  the  average  of  the  amount  of  wages  we  have  been 
paying  for  the  last  five  years. 

Q.  We  are  not  now  interested  in  the  average  wage.  We  are  in- 
terested now  in  the  lowest  wage.  There  is  some  difference,  you  understand, 
between  the  average  wage  and  the  lowest  wage?  A.  As  to  that,  I 
could  not  answer  the  question.  My  impression  is  that  we  have  been 
paying  not  less  than  six  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Within  the  last  year,  have  you  paid  any  girl  as  low  as  $3  a week? 
A.  No,  sir,  I would  not  say  that. 

JUNIOR:  A.  No,  sir,  that  has  not  happened  in  the  last  year.  There 
has  been  a uniform  rule,  that  no  girl  has  worked  for  less  than  six  dollars 
a week.  Every  girl  who  is  good  enough  to  go  into  the  factory  has 
to  have  $6  a week. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Are  they  paid  salary,  or  paid  piece  work 
rates?  A.  The  $6  is  a salary.  Our  piece  workers  all  make  more  than 
that. 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  is  the  least  amount  on  which  a girl  can 
support  herself,  in  the  city  of  Peoria,  at  this  time?  SENIOR:  A.  To  be 
fair  about  that,  I have  not  gone  into  that,  really,  along  those  lines.  I 
haven’t  any  real  information. 

Q.  (To  Junior.)  What  do  you  think  about  it?  What  amount  do  you 

say. 

JUNIOR:  I think  a girl  can  get  fair  board  and  room  for  from  $4 
to  $4.50  a week. 

Q.  That  is  for  board  and  room,  both?  A.  Yes,  I would  say  $4.50 
a week,  but  there  are  some  good  places  at  $4.  Maybe,  however,  there 
are  not  enough  of  those  places  at  that  price  to  go  around.  You  can 
get  them  for  $4.  For  another  thing,  a girl  in  our  factory  does  not  need 
to  be  kept  up,  in  the  way  of  clothes,  as  she  would  need  to  be  in  a store 
or  office.  What  I mean  is,  there  is  no  demand  or  requirement  made  upon 
her  in  that  way,  and  she  is  not  under  the  observation  of  the  public. 

Q.  She  has  to  dress  a little  bit,  doesn’t  she,  no  matter  where  she 
works?  A.  Well,  there  is  no  demand  in  the  matter.  The  ordinary  clothes, 
half  worn  out,  that  she  would  have  to  throw  away,  in  some  occupations, 
she  can  wear  them  out  down  there  until  they  are  rags.  Most  of  their 
costumes  consist  of  the  burlap  that  we  furnish  to  protect  their  clothes. 
Of  course,  there  is  a little  wear  on  their  clothes. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  it  would  cost  a factory  girl  to  clothe  herself 
a year?  A.  I don’t  know  about  that.  It  is  just  a matter  of  how  much 
i|iit  would  cost  her  for  a few  street  dresses.  As  I say,  there  is  no  rule,  no 
requirement,  as  to  dress  and  she  has  little  if  any  dress  expense  during  the 
working  day,  and  that  is  the  greater  part  of  her  life,  certainly. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  employ  at  $6  a week?  A.  25. 

Q.  25  at  $6?  A.  That  is  the  limit.  The  fact  is,  it  is  usually  less 
than  that  number. 

Q.  Taking  the  case  of  those  25  girls,  they  would  pay,  say,  $4.25  for 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


room  and  board,  and  it  leaves  them  $1.75  a week  for  clothes,  amusement, 
and  all  other  expenses,  carfare,  etc.  A.  Well,  there  is  no  carfare  for 
our  girls.  They  all  live  within  walking  distance. 

Q.  Do  you  think  $1.75  is  enough?  A.  Yes,  I think  it  is  enough 
to  keep  them  from  going  astray,  and  that  is  what  I understand  this  is 
for,  to  get  at  that  matter. 

Q.  Then  you  think  that  $6  a week  is  a pretty  good  wage  for  a girl 
in  Peoria,  and  that  she  can  be  respectable  on  that?  A.  Yes,  I do. 

Q.  (To  Senior.)  Do  you  think  that  is  true?  A.  What  is  that? 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  a girl  can  live  respectably  in  Peoria  9n  $6 
a week?  A.  To  be  honest  about  the  whole  matter,  I have  not  inves- 
tigated the  subject.  I could  not  form  opinions  at  once  as  to  what  could 
be  done.  I am  satisfied  it  is  a very  meager  amount  to  get  along  with, 
as  far  as  that  is  concerned.  I don’t  know,  however,  but  what  a girl 
might  get  along  on  $7.  The  difficulty  is,  the  girls  we  have,  and  the  kind 
that  we  have,  1 don’t  know  how  far  they  get  along  in  school.  A great 
many  of  them,  I suppose,  could  not  occupy  any  very  high  position,  prob- 
ably nothing  any  higher  than  they  are  now  filling.  If  they  could,  they 
would  not  do  the  work  they  are  now  doing,  I infer.  You  understand, 
it  is  rather  dirty  work,  of  course,  being  about  the  machinery.  If  a girl 
could  do  much  better  than  that,  I don’t  believe  we  could  employ  her 

at  what  we  do.  There  are  a great  many  more  things  that  would  enter 

into  that  question;  of  course  it  would  not  interest  you,  the  reasons  we 
are  not  paying  more  salaries.  If  you  will  pardon  me,  just  to  give  you 
a little  information,  for  instance,  we  are  up  against  a proposition  in 
our  manufacturing — I don’t  know  whether  others  are  in  the  same  condition 
or  not — in  the  first  place  there  are  about  seven  or  eight  manufacturers 
of  harvester  twine  in  the  different  penitentiaries  all  over  in  the  different 
states  of  the  United  States.  While  they  do  not  produce  the  amount 
of  twine  that  the  country  demands,  at  the  same  time  they  make  prices 
very  low.  For  instance,  twine  that  ought  to  be  sold  at  9%  to  9j4,  they 
produce  at  8%,  and  it  has  an  influence  on  the  market.  You  understand 
that  proposition.  So  we  are  really  helpless,  in  the  matter  of  raising  the 
price  of  the  manufactured  goods,  so  that  we  could  pay  more  wages  than 

we  are  doing,  because  those  prison  competitors  are  not  paying  any 

salaries,  or  at  least  getting  the  labor  very  cheap  indeed. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Would  you  pay  the  girls  higher  salaries 
or  more  wages  if  no  twine  were  manufactured  in  any  penitentiary?  A. 
We  would  have  to  compete  with  manufacturers  in  other  states,  in  the 
east,  where  most  of  the  factories  are  located,  and  we  would  have  to  con- 
sult with  them  as  to  the  wages  they  are  paying,  because  that  is  a com- 
petition against  us,  and  in  that  way  we  have  to  regulate  things,  or  go 
out  of  business.  In  several  years  we  have  gone  through,  it  would  have 
been  a good  deal  better  to  be  out  of  the  business  than  to  be  in  it. 

Q.  Then,  I am  to  judge  from  that,  that  you  could  not  raise  your 
wages  without  consulting  with  manufacturers  in  the  same  line  of  business, 
and  that  the  increase  of  wages  would  necessarily  have  to  be  uniform  everj-- 
where?  A.  From  this  standpoint,  that  the  profits  are  down  to  the  mini- 
mum, in  competing  with  others,  you  understand,  especially  on  the  har- 
vester twine.  I have  been  here  in  Peoria  24  years.  When  I started  here, 
I had  come  across  from  Ohio.  At  that  time  we  used  to  sell  to  the  jobbing 
trade,  entirely.  The  penitentiary  twine  mills  were  not  known  at  that  time, 
except  one,  and  that  was  in  a very  small  way.  Those  years  we  could 
get  along,  and  have  a profit  nearly  as  we  thought  we  ought  to,  but  today 
we  are  limited. 

Q.  You  came  here  a poor  man?  A.  Oh,  no,  not  exactly,  or  else 
I could  not  have  gone  into  the  cordage  manufacturing  business. 

Q.  Your  business  has  grown  pretty  nicel}’-  since  j’ou  have  been  here? 
A.  No,  I could  not  say  that.  We  are  not  making  any  more  goods,  today, 
in  pounds,  than  we  did  24  years  ago,  because  we  ran  our  mill  day  and 
night,  and  could  sell  all  our  goods  and  more  too;  whereas  we  are  glad 
now  to  get  enough  to  do  on  ten  hours’  run  by  doubling  up  the  mill. 
That  is  the  real  truth  in  the  matter. 

y.  How  much  would  it  cost  your  company  to  increase  the  wage  of 


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289 


every  girl  now  employed  by  you,  from  $6  a week  to  $10?  A.  Four  times 
25,  isn’t  it? 

Q.  That  would  be  $100  a week?  A.  $5,000  a year. 

Q.  Were  the  profits  of  your  company  the  last  fiscal  year  not  in 
excess  of  $5,000?  A.  Our  profits? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Oh,  yes.  They  have  been  somewhat  better  than  that, 
of  course. 

Q.  What  were  your  profits  last  year?  A.  Better  refer  back  two 
or  three  years  first,  and  then  come  up  to  the  following  year,  and  I will 
; explain  as  to  that. 

I Q.  • We  will  be  glad  to  get  any  figures  regarding  profits  that  you 
can  give  us?  A.  Three  years  ago  we  did  not  declare  a dividend.  The 
I reason  was,  we  did  not  much  more  than  simply  hold  our  own.  The  next 
year,  I do  not  exactly  recollect,  but  I suppose  we  might  have  cleaned  up 
something  like  $28,000.  We  have  an  investment  there  of  about  half  a 
million  dollars.  Now,  if  you  think  that  is  a good  investment,  with  the 
wear  and  tear  on  the  investment,  an  investment  of  that  amount,  you 
can  figure  out  whether  we  can  afiford  to  raise  the  wages  of  employes  or 
not. 

Q.  Last  year  what  were  the  profits?  A.  Last  year  was  an  unusual 
year.  There  was  a shortage  of  twine,  and  as  we  were  not,  as  a business 
house,  established  just  like  some  of  the  others  were,  in  the  northwest, 
. we  just  simply  asked  the  prices  that  people  were  willing  to  pay  on  a 
shortage  season.  It  was  not  material  to  us  whether  they  took  the  goods 
or  did  not.  We  could  sell  them  anyway.  I suppose  we  must  have 
made  a profit  of  about  sixty  thousand  dollars  that  year. 

Q.  $60,000?  A.  If  you  will  take  that  amount  and  distribute  it 
backwards  to  cover  the  last  three  years,  when  we  did  not  make  anything, 

; I don’t  suppose  you  could  call  that  a very  high  average. 

Q.  You  had  a profit  of  $60,000  last  year  and  you  have  an  investment 
of  half  a million?  A.  More  than  that. 

Q.  What  is  your  actual  cash  investment?  A.  You  mean  on  the 
books? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Last  year  it  stood  about  $600,000. 

Q.  How  much  cash  did  you  put  into  the  business?  A.  All  of  it. 

Q.  $600,000?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  there  is  no  watered  stock  or  anything  of  that  sort  in  your 
business?  A.  Not  a dollar.  In  fact,  there  is  a depreciation  there  on 
I the  amount  we  put  in,  and  it  is  not  worth  what  was  put  in,  on  account 
of  the  wear  and  tear  on  the  machinery. 

Q.  In  fixing  your  profit,  I suppose  you  allowed  a certain  per  cent 
for  wear  and  tear?  A.  No,  sir,  we  did  not,  on  those  years  that  I 
have  mentioned. 

Q.  That  is  included  in  the  $60,000?  A.  The  whole  thing.  I would 
be  happier  if  I knew  we  had  charged  it  off. 

Q.  You  say  prices  were  pretty  good  in  your  line,  last  year?  A. 
About  the  tail  end  of  it.  If  you  are  not  a\vare  of  the  conditions,  let 
me  give  you  a little  of  the  inside  history.  For  instance,  a railroad  would 
come  down  or  telegraph  down  that  if  we  could  have  twelve  cars  of 
I twine  at  Minneapolis,  they  would  give  us  as  much  as  12  cents  a pound. 
The  fact  is,  that  the  bankers  and  railroad  folks  were  the  people  that 
were  scouring  the  country  for  twine,  in  order  to  save  the  crops  in  the 
northwest,  on  account  of  the  shortage  in  twine.  I give  you  the  illus- 

i tration  to  show  you  why  it  was  because  we  were  able  to  make  more 

■ money  last  year  than  in  other  years.  Now  every  little  while,  if  I may 

; use  the  expression,  we  are  catching  H because  we  did  do  some  things 

j that  some  of  the  rest  did  not,  in  the  way  of  taking  advantage  of  the 

, rising  market  in  twine  last  year.  Now,  when  we  go  back  to  get  orders, 

i they  hold  this  up  against  us.  I am  giving  you  a little  of  the  inside  facts 
1 of  our  business,  to  show  that  when  you  are  trying  to  save  yourselves, 
i you  are  not  always  doing  it  in  the  right  fashioned  way,  and  you  lose 
afterwards, 
i 
[ 

I 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


I 


Q.  Is  there  any  sort  of  agreement  among  manufacturers  regarding  i 
prices?  A.  Not  any  that  1 know  of,  except  this:  The  International,  | 
as  you  know,  are  the  ruling  power  on  the  question  of  twine,  and  the  [ 
Plymouth  Cordage  Company  of  Plymouth,  Massachusetts,  comes  next  in  ' 
size.  When  the  International  usually  makes  their  open  price  known  ; 
(for  instance  they  made  it  known  along  about  the  first  part  of  this  month), 
then  the  Plymouth  with  only  a small  variation  accepts  it,  then  with  such  j 
a concern  as  ours  we  fall  into  line,  because  we  are  not  dictators,  we  are  I 
only  followers. 

Q.  You  are  not  a party  to  any  agreement?  A.  Not  at  all,  but  we  1 
could  not  do  any  worse  because  it  is  bad  enough  as  it  is.  1 

Q.  Do  you  think  an  employer  has  any  moral  responsibifity  for  j 
women  and  girls  who  work  for  him?  A.  Well,  I have  always  felt  that  i 
way,  as  to  that  proposition.  1 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  if  a girl  falls — even  though  there  maj'  not 
be  very  many  perhaps,  even  though  the  proportion  may  be  small,  but 
if  a girl  does  fall  because  she  is  being  paid  less  than  a living  wage,  i 
do  you  think  the  conscience  of  the  employer  should  be  bothered?  A.  Yes, 

I do. 

Q.  The  wear  and  tear  on  the  girl  is  worthy  of  as  much  consideration 
as  the  wear  and  tear  on  the  machinery?  A.  Yes,  I have  always  so 
considered. 

Q.  You  made,  last  year,  $60,000?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  According  to  your  statement,  to  have  increased  the  wages  of 
every  girl  from  ^ to  $10  would  cost  $5,000.  Would  that  not  have  been 
a good  investment  for  you?  A.  Well,  the  answer  would  be  simply  this: 
that  when  the  year  was  begun,  we  hadn’t  anything  in  sight  to  give  us 
a guarantee  that  the  outcome  at  the  close  of  the  season  would  prove 
to  be  such  as  I have  stated.  Similarly,  what  there  is  now  in  store  for 
us  in  the  future,  I cannot  predict.  So  it  is  that  so  far  as  these  things 
are  concerned,  I don’t  know  what  to  say  or  do  in  a matter  of  that  kind. 

In  my  own  opinion,  I feel  that  we  are  paying  all  we  can  afford  to  pay. 
That  is  my  honest  opinion,  taking  things  year  in  and  year  out.  Now  there 
you  have,  for  instance,  six  hundred  thousand  dollars  actually  put  in. 
Suppose  you  put  that  amount  out  in  loans  at  5 per  cent,  that  would  re- 
turn thirty  thousand  dollars.  With  the  same  investment  I could  earn 
that  without  being  tormented  with  the  mill.  If  it  was  today  all  mine 
I would  rather  do  that,  in  fact,  than  to  have  the  mill.  You  do  not  know 
how  some  women  come  to  the  office  begging  for  work  for  their  children 
at  any  old  price  almost.  Not  because  we  wanted  to  reduce  the  prices, 
but  many,  many  times  we  have  taken  people  in  there  that  we  did  not 
want,  just  to  help  them  along,  because  we  listened  to  their  stories.  The 
conditions  in  the  factories  are  quite  different  from  the  conditions  in 
the  dry  goods  stores  and  other  places  where  girls  have  to  dress  and  primp. 
We  get  experience  along  a different  line.  We  have  to  do  more  with 
people  who  have  been  more  closely  pressed  to  make  both  ends  meet, 
more  closely  pressed  than  these  other  folks  are. 


Q.  You  touched  upon  one  subject  that  interested  me.  It  leads 
me  to  ask  this  question — would  you  favor  some  system  of  profit-sharing 
with  your  employes?  A.  There  would  be  the  condition,  on  what  basis 

and  how.  You  have  got  to  protect  your  capital,  haven’t  you? 

Q.  Unquestionably.  A.  If  you  had  consulted  me  about  two  years 
ago,  you  could  have  come  down  to  the  works  and  have  bought  me  out 
quite  reasonably. 

Q.  I am  afraid  I could  not  have  purchased,  at  any  price,  for  an 
obvious  reason.  A.  I tell  you,  we  are  often  in  the  soup  when  we 
would  feel  like  getting  out  of  it,  but  we  have  to  stay.  Whether  the 

punishment  is  worse  on  the  girls  than  us,  I don’t  know.  If  they  don’t 

get  what  they  think  they  ought  to  get,  we  certainly  do  not  either.  Some- 
times I feel  like  swapping  with  them  a little  while,  to  get  rested  up. 

Q.  We  are  down  here  to  co-operate  with  the  employer  and  em- 
ploye. You  have  made  a very  fair  and  interesting  witness.  I want  to 
compliment  you  and  thank  you  for  the  frank  way  in  which  you  have 
discussed  this  matter  with  us.  We  want  to  get  your  viewpoint  and  we 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


291 


|(vant  you  to  suggest  some  possible  remedy.  You  agree  with  us  that 
[iomething  must  be  done  for  our  working  girls?  A.  1 agree  with  that. 

Q.  And  that  low  wages  has  a good  deal  to  do  with  the  vice  question? 
K.  With  the  environment;  yes,  sir. 

JUNIOR:  I observed,  in  New  Haven,  Connecticut,  five  years  ago, 
yhen  in  college,  that  out  of  40  girls  that  had  fallen,  that  were  investi- 
gated, not  one  gave  the  excuse  of  low  wages. 

Q.  That  was  in  New  Haven?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  principal  things 
hat  cause  a girl  to  fall,  she  gets  her  first  drink  with  a man,  and  lax 
livorce  laws  cause  a girl  to  get  arr  easy  divorce,  because  she  fancies 
iomebody  else,  and  because  she  has  been  married  she  gets  lax  and  falls 
)ack  morally  by  easy  stages,  a fellow  promises  to  marry  and  does  not, 
nd  such  causes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  young  fellows  were  then  in  school?  A. 
if cs  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL  (to  Senior):  We  have  a bill  before  the  general 
ssembly  to  make  a minimum  wage  scale.  The  bill  calls  for  a commission 
jO  be  appointed  by  the  Governor,  and  to  make  up  a scale.  What  do  you 
jhirik  would  be  a fair  minimum  wage  scale  for  these  people?  We  have 
sked  this  question  in  Chicago  of  a great  many  store  managers  and  factory 
iwners.  There  are  a great  many  people  thinking  about  this  problem.  You 
re  an  old  employer  and  I believe  a good  straight  old  fellow.  What  do 
!-ou  say  to  us  would  be  a fair  minimum  wage  scale,  if  everybody  had  to  pay 
It — not  only  you,  but  everybody  in  the  State,  or  in  the  United  States?  A.  i 
fhink  a girl  could  get  along  very  nicely  with  $8  a week,  with  conditions'  as 
Ihey  now  prevail. 

I Q.  The  minimum  scale?  A.  1 am  considering  the  girls  in  our  em- 
01  j'loy.  1 am  not  familiar  with  the  amount  of  clothes  they  have  to  use  in 
ther  lines  of  work.  I am  not  familiar  with  that. 

Q.  Eight  dollars  a week,  in  your  opinion,  would  be  the  minimum  scale? 
U Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Senator  Tossey,  do  you  wish  to  ask  any 
uestions? 

■ , Senator  Tossey:  What  penitentiaries  make  twine?  I did  not  under- 
tand  you  as  to  that?  A.  Minnesota,  North  Dakota,  South  Dakota,  Kan- 
as,  Missouri,  Indiana,  Michigan;  and  today  my  son  is  down  in  Lincoln, 
«eD.,  where  he  is  trying  to  help  fight  the  proposition  of  that  state  entering 
bto  this  line  of  manufacturing.  I might  as  well  tell  you  that;  Nebraska  is 


bnsidering  now,  the  installation  of  machinery  and  the  making  of  twine. 
S ’s  Testimony. 


-,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Committee, 


eing  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and  testified  as 
pllows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  C S . 

' Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  Eighteen  the  12th  of  April. 

Q.  You  say  you  were  born  here  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Virginia,  111. 

I Q.  You  came  to  Peoria  at  what  age?  A.  About  15. 

] Q.  Did  you  live  here  with  your  parents,  at  that  time,  when  you  came 

ere?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  here  alone?  A.  I came  here  with  a girl  friend. 

Q.  A girl  friend  from  Virginia?  A.  From  Galesburg. 

Q.  You  had  previously  lived  at  Galesburg?  A.  No,  I was  just  there 
few  days. 

And  you  met  this  girl  at  Galesburg?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

For  what  purpose  did  you  come  to  Peoria?  A.  For  pleasure. 

Did  you  have  any  money?  A.  Yes. 

You  had  a considerable  sum  of  money  with  you  when  you  came? 


|L..  . 


? Q. 
! Q- 


292 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


A.  I did  not  have  any  considerable  amount,  I had  some  money. 

Q.  Were  you  dependent  upon  your  own  efforts?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  to  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  have  enough  money  to  keep  you  going  without  work- 
ing? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  find  a job  here  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  what  concern,  what  company?  A.  A candy  place. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  it?  A.  O.  K.  Candy  Kitchen. 

Q.  Where  was  that  located?  A.  1100  block  in  Main  street. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  there?  A.  Sold  ice  cream  and  candy. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a day  did  you  work,  when  employed  there?  A. 
I began  at  6 o’clock  in  the  morning. 

Q.  And  worked  until  what  time?  A.  Till  8 in  the  evening. 

Q.  Serving  ice  cream  and  doing  work  of  that  nature  from  6 in  the 
morning  till  8 at  night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  a week  were  you  paid?  A.  $3.00. 

Q.  Did  you  work  Sundays,  too?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  paid  $3.00  a week,  then,  for  seven  days’  work,  from  6 in 
the  morning  till  8 in  the  evening,  is  that  correct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  continue  working  in  the  O.  K.  Candy  Kitchen? 
A.  I did  not  work  there  steady.  1 was  sick  and  then  went  back. 

• Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there,  all  told?  A.  I could  not  say  ex- 
actly. 

Q.  Was  it  at  least  three  months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  at  that  time  a respectable  girl,  when  getting  $3.00  a 
w’eek?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  sporting  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  w'ere  working  in  that  store  and  sporting  at  the  same  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  live  on  $3.00  a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  fact  that  you  were  not  making  more  than  $3.00  a week 
have  anything  to  do  with  your  sporting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  now?  A.  Training  for  a nurse. 

Q.  Training  to  become  a nurse?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  you  had  obtained  a position  of  some  kind  at  $8.00 
or  $10.00  a week,  at  a good  trade,  you  would  not  have  gone  astray?  A.  I 
don’t  think  I would,  no. 

Q.  You  think  you  would  have  remained  straight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  believe  that  the  $3.00  a week  you  were  receiving  would  not 
support  you,  and  you  made  your  living  otherwise?  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  became  of  the  man  you  worked  for  in  that  candy  place?  A. 
Here  in  Peoria? 

Q.  Yes,  the  one  who  ran  this  O.  K.  Candy  Kitchen  where  you 
worked?  A.  His  name  was  Ben  Ketcham. 

Q.  Is  he  here  now?  A.  He  is  in  the  penitentiary. 

Q.  He  was  sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  having  you  there,  was  he?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  that  happen?  A.  Last  year. 

Q.  Are  you  living  a straight  life  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  When  you  went  to  work  in,  that  candy 
kitchen,  you  thought  it  was  a respectable  place  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  this  man  ask  you  to  lead  the  life  you  did.' 
A.  X^o,  not  when  I first  went  there. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


293 


Q.  I mean  later  on,  toward  the  last  of  j^our  stay  in  that  place?  A. 
ii"es,  sir. 

Q.  He  persuaded  you,  finally,  to  enter  this  life,  the  man  you  were 
yorking  for?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  were  living  in  that  house,  in  the  back  part?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  did  you  do  before  y'ou  came  to  Peoria? 
\.  I just  lived  home,  and  did  housework,  in  Galesburg. 

Q.  You  were  a nice  girl  then,  were  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  Your  downfall  was  after  you  came  here,  was  it  then?  A.  Yes, 
Bir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  witness  may  be  excused.  Will  the  news- 
paper correspondents  kindly  refer  to  these  unfortunate  girls  by  initials 
only.  In  cases  where  girls  are  trying  to  lead  better  lives,  especially,  and 
to  change  their  way  of  living,  I ask  of  you  that  you  protect  them  to  the 
fullest  extent. 

(Unanimous  assent.) 

- P J ’s  Testimony. 

P J , a witness  summoned  and  appearing  before  the  Com- 

mission, having  been  first  duly  sworn,  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated 
and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


CH 

AIRMAN 

O’HARA:  \ 

Vhat 

is  your 

name,  please? 

A.  P 

Q- 

How  old 

are  you?  A. 

Seventeen  last 

December,  the 

13th. 

Q. 

Where  were  you  born? 

A. 

Peoria. 

Q. 

You  have 

lived  here  all 

your 

life?  A. 

Not  all  of  my 

life.  I have 

' peen  out  in  California  part  of  the  time. 

Q,  You  were  born  here  and  have  traveled  around  somewhat?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  sporting  now?  A.  No,  sir. 

11  ■'  Q.  Have  you  been?  A.  I have,  yes,  sir. 

, Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  first  began  sporting?  A.  Seventeen, 
—no  sixteen. 

j;t'!  Q.  That  is  two  years  ago?  A.  A year  ago  last  December. 

I Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  something  of  your  experience  about 
[j  that  time?  A.  Well,  I happened  to  be  going  with  a friend  of  mine,  and 
II  the  way  girls  go  wrong,  I fell  into  his  ways  and  his  ideas  of  things,  and 
n after  a time  he  got  me  to  go  hustling  for  him,  as  they  call  it. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  In  other  words,  you  were  soliciting  for  him? 

I A.  Yes,  sir. 

II  Q.  He  received  the  money,  mostly?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  may  proceed.  What  was  his  name?  A. 
5 Harry  Serviss- — I don’t  know  just  exactly  how  to  spell  it. 

Q.  You  did  not  keep  the  money  you  received  from  sporting,  at  that 
itime?  A.  No,  I didn’t.  He  asked  me  for  it  and  told  me  if  I did  not  give 
it  to  him  he  would  desert  me,  but  if  I did,  he  would  spend  it  on  me  for 

! pleasure  and  clothes  afterwards. 

Q.  You  turned  over  all  the  money  to  him,  all  that  you  made?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

d ' Q.  How  long  did  this  continue?  A.  From  about  November  20th  un- 
; til  some  time  in  januarj^ — January  18th. 

Q.  You  hustled  right  here  on  the  streets  of  Peoria  during  that  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  j^ou  kindly  tell  the  Committee  the  name  of  the  place  to  which 
you  took  the  men  you  attracted  on  the  streets?  A.  Well,  I had  a room. 

Q.  Are  your  parents  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


294 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Are  they  poor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  not  able  to  give  you  what  some  other  girls  have,  a; 
much  as  some  other  girls  are  given  by  their  people?  A.  That  is  correct 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  work  for  wages?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where?  A.  Onken’s  Laundry,  and  another  place. 

Q.  Where  was  that?  A.  Larkin’s. 

Q.  Here  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  you  paid?  A.  Five  dollars  a week  at  Larkin’s  and 
$5.00  a week  at  Onken’s  Laundry. 

Q.  Were  you  able  to  live  respectably  here  in  Peoria  on  $5.00  a week? 
A.  Well,  of  course,  I was  staying  with  my  parents,  and  was  behaving  my- 
self. I just  gave  the  money  I received  every  week  as  wages  to  my  parents, 
and  they  kept  me. 

Q._  You  gave  the  entire  $5.00  over  to  your  parents  ever}'  week?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  left  you  no  part  of  the  $5.00  for  pocket  money?  A.  If  I 
ever  wanted  anything,  I would  ask  them  for  it.  If  they  possibl}'  could 
spare  the  money,  they  would  give  it  to  me. 

Q.  Sometimes,  however,  they  could  not  spare  the  money  for  things? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  seems  too  often  to  be  the  state  of 
affairs.  Girls,  who  live  at  home  and  work,  turn  their  w'ages  into  the  homes, 
and  they  are  allowed  nothing  of  the  money  they  earn  for  their  own  wishes 
or  demands. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  This  $5.00  a week  would  not  have  clothed  you 
and  paid  your  board,  if  you  had  been  wholly  dependent  on  your  own  re- 
sources? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  into  this  life  because  you  thought  you  could  dress  better 
and  could  have  a better  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  man  persuaded  you?  A.  Persuaded  me  to  leave  my  home, 

yes. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  if  you  had  been  able  to  get  a position  that  paid 
you  $10.00  or  $12.00  a w'eek,  you  would  have  led  a straight  life?  A.  Yes 
sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  cause,  mostly,  of  the  downfall  of  girls, 
in  your  experience?  Why  do  girls  go  astray,  would  you  say?  Do  you 
think  it  is  from  want?  Want  of  dress,  and  no  place  to  live  that  is  cheerful 
and  attractive  and  comfortable?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  There  might  be  some  further  questions  asked  if 
this  were  an  executive  session.  I wdll  waive  them  because  of  the  publicity. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  (to  the  witness):  We  wish  you  the  best  pos- 
sible luck. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  all  wish  you  happier  days. 

Mr.  Henry  C.  Block’s  Testimony. 

HENRY  C.  BLOCK,  a witness,  summoned  and  appearing  before  the 
Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  b}'  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and 
testified  as  follows: 

MR.  BLOCK:  Gentlemen,  while  I have  been  summoned  to  appear 
before  you,  I would  like  to  inform  you  at  the  outset  that  Mr.  Carl  Block 
is  the  secretary  of  the  company,  and  has  more  to  do  with  the  matters  you 
are  concerned  with  than  I have,  and  is  better  informed  on  such  matters. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I did  not  just  understand  your  statement,  Mr. 
Block. 

MR.  BLOCK,  SR.:  Mr.  Carl  Block  is  the  secretary  of  our  com- 
pany, and  he  has  more  to  do  with  the  help.  He  has  all  the  figures,  and  he 
is  a member  of  the  company,  too. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  will  examine  3-ou  first,  Mr.  Block  (Se- 
nior) and  then  we  will  call  upon  Mr.  Carl  Block  afterward. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


295 


j (Senator  Beall  administers  oath  to  Mr.  Carl  Block,  who  takes  a seat 
! beside  this  witness.) 

i EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Henry  C.  Block. 

Q.  Your  business?  A.  Dry  good.s 

Q.  With  what  concern?  A.  A.  Schipper  & Block. 

Q.  In  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Qi  What  is  your  position?  A.  President. 

Q.  It  is  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  An  Illinois  corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  the  largest  stockholders  in  the  company  of  Schipper  & 
Block?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  by  that  concern  to  girls  and 
I women?  A.  No,  I have  not  the  exact  figures,  and  I do  not  carry  them 
in  my  head. 

Q.  In  a general  way  you  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid?  A.  No,  I 
I am  not  familiar  enough  to  say  what  is  paid  to  any  particular  employe  at 
the  present  time,  with  certainty,  but  our  secretary  has  that  information 
and  can  furnish  it. 

Q.  Is  your  secretary  present  at  this  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  he  come  forward? 

* (Mr.  Carl  Block  indicated  by  the  witness.) 

Q.  O,  yes,  you  are  the  gentleman  referred  to  by  this  witness,  the  sec- 
retary of  the  corporation  known  as  Schipper  & Block?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  sworn?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  father  and  son?  A.  (By  Mr.  Block,  Senior):  He  is  my 
1 , nephew. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  This  is  a question  I would  like  you  to  answer. 
I What  was  the  net  profit  of  your  corporation  during  the  last  fiscal  year? 
i MR.  BLOCK,  SR.:  I would  like  to  consult  our  legal  counsel  before 
[ answering  that. 

I Q.  You  have  read  in  the  newspapers  something  of  the  work  of  this 

I Committee  in  the  City  of  Chicago,  prior  to  this  time?  A.  Well,  not  espe- 
1 dally.  I did  notice  something  about  it. 

I Q.  You  did  see  something  in  the  newspapers  about  the  matter?  A. 

I Yes,  in  a casual  wajL 

|,  Q.  Have  you  been  to  Chicago  in  the  last  week  or  ten  days?  A.  Yes, 

sir,  I was  up  there  very  recently,  because  Ave  had  a meeting. 

" Q.  Was  it  a trade  meeting?  A.  We  had  a meeting  of  the  corpora- 

I tion,  of  the  stockholders  of  our  concern.  It  had  nothing  to  do  Avith  the 
I dry  goods  trade,  especially. 

IQ.  Are  you  acquainted  Avith  Mr.  Simpson,  avIio  is  the  vice-president 
of  the  concern  known  as  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  saAV  him  during  your  recent  visit  to  the  CitA^  of  Chicago?  A. 
,Yes,  sir,  I saw  him  then  for  the  first  time  in  my  life. 

Q.  At  that  meeting,  did  the  subject  of  this  Committee  come  up  for 
discussion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  Avas  said?  A.  Well,  we  didn’t  talk  very  long.  He  told 
j me  about  the  question  that  was  put  to  him,  asking  him  to  testify  about  the 
profits  of  the  concern,  is  about  all,  and  that  he  had  asked  to  be  excused,  as 
he  wanted  to  see  the  attorneys,  and  the  answer  had  been,  I don’t  know 
why,  the  answer  had  been  that  be  need  not  answer  any  sucli  question  be- 
fore this  committee,  because  they  were  not  acting  in  that  capacity  in  what 
they  were  doing  now,  and  any  private  questions  that  were  asked,  about 
what  concerns  were  earning  as  net  profits.  Avould  not  have  to  be  ansAvered. 
I do  not  know  much  about  it.  I didn’t  talk  over  tAvo  minutes  Avith  him,  all 
I together,  and  that  is  about  all  that  was  said. 


296 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  He  said  that  the  State  street  stores  in  Chicago  had  consulted  an 
attorney?  A.  He  did  not  tell  me  that. 

Q.  He  did  not  mention  any  attorney,  or  firm  of  attorneys  b3'  name? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  attorney  did  he  mention?  A.  Mr.  Wilson. 

Q.  Of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  Mr.  Wilson  and  the  State  street  stores,  in 
general?  A.  Nothing  more  than  what  I have  just  said,  that  ^^Ir.  Wilson 
had  told  him  that  this  body  had  no  right  whatever  to  ask  these  questions, 
in  the  capacity  in  vvhich  they  were  acting.  Now,  I don’t  know  anything  much 
about  law,  and  I did  not  ask  about  it  especially.  1 might  have  gone  at  it  in  a 
different  way  and  found  out  something  further,  possibly,  or  been  able  to 
state  the  basis  more  definitely.  I did  not  have  much  time  and  I did  not 
go  into  it. 

Q.  This  is  the  first  time  you  had  seen  Mr.  Simpson  of  Field  & Co.? 
A.  Yes.  A 

Q.  Have  Marshall  Field  & Company  any  interest  in  your  store?  A. 
No,  sir,  none  whatever. 

Q.  Do  you  buy  from  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  your  relations  with  Marshall  Field  & Co.  confined  to  buying 
goods?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  they  ever  offered  you  advice  on  matters  of  business  policj’? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  This  is  the  first  time?  A.  I happened  just  to  be  sitting  there, 
with  a salesman,  and  he  said,  “I  would  like  to  make  you  acquainted  with 
Mr.  ,”  what’s  his  name? 

Q.  Simpson?  A.  Simpson,  yes.  I didn’t  know  him  till  then.  He 
said  “Mr.  Simpson  is  our  vice-president.’’ 

MR.  BLOCK,  JR.:  I might  state  that  something  was  being  said,  as 
a matter  of  information,  about  certain  store  machinerfq  upon  one  occasion, 
and  on  various  occasions,  in  regard  to  an\'thing,  where  we  have  been  going 
through  the  store,  and  noticed  anj-thing  new  in  the  way  of  machiner3'  fix- 
tures, or  whatever  it  was,  they  alwa3's  have  given  us,  if  we  asked  it,  their 
advice  and  opinion. 

Q.  Extending  30U  the  usual  business  courtes3'  in  such  matters? 

Yes,  sir;  that  is  all. 

Q.  But  this  is  the  first  time  they  have  favored  3'ou  with  advice  of  a 
legal  nature?  A.  (Senior):  No.  Years  ago,  I asked  them  when  we 
wanted  to  know  about  a certain  road,  the  Lake  Street  Elevated  Road.  He 
took  me  to  one  of  the  men  in  the  office.  I do  not  remember  his  name,  and 
he  told  me  all  about  it,  and  some  small  matters  have  come  up,  and  we  have 
been  visiting  them  or  doing  business  with  them  for  about  fift3’  3-ears,  so 
there  might  be  some  things  coming  up  like  that.  I couldn’t  tell  3’ou  now. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Then  30U  refuse  to  answer,  at  this  time,  the 
question  concerning  the  profits  of  3-our  business  during  the  last  fiscal  3-ear? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I haven’t  seen  an3-  lawyer  about  it  here  since  I heard  of  it 
in  Chicago,  and  so  I want  to  have  the  advice  of  013-  law3-er. 

Q.  On  that  point  you  desire  to  be  consistent  with  the  stand  taken  by 
Marshall  Field  & Compan3'  and  other  merchants  in  Chicago?  A.  Y'ell,  I 
didn’t  know  of  any  other  merchants  that  took  that  stand.  I don’t  know 
now. 

Q.  Now,  how  man3'  girls  and  women  are  emplo3-ed  in  3-our  store  in 
Peoria?  I imagine  the  3'oung  man  will  answer  that. 

MR.  BLOCK,  JR.:  Two  hundred  and  sevent3--nine. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any-  girl  working  in  your  store? 
A.  We  have  nine  girls  who  have  come  in  as  errand  girls,  to  learn  the  busi- 
ness. They  live  at  home,  and  came  in  at  the  instance  of  their  parents.  Y e 
have  two  girls  who  come  in  at  noon  to  wait  on  table  for  about  two  hours, 
sometimes  it  is  longer,  but  usually  for  two  hours.  They-  receive  their  din- 
ner and  $3.50  a week. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


297 


Q.  What  do  those  nine  girls  classed  as  errand  girls  receive?  A.  Four 
dollars  a week. 

Q.  The  next  class  is  what?  A.  The  next  class  are  also  errand  girls, 
and  relief  inspectors.  They  are  graduated  from  the  errand  girl  stage  to  the 
relief  inspector  stage.  Their  functions  are  to  relieve  the  inspectors  or 
wrappers  while  they  are  off  duty  at  noon,  and  during  such  time  in  the 
morning  or  afternoon  as  they  have  absent  leave  from  their  departments. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  girls  of  the  class  you  are  talking  about 
now?  A.  There  are  12,  at  $4.50. 

Q.  They  work  how  many  hours?  A.  The  usual  number,  eight  and 
one-half.  • 

Q.  Eight  and  one-half  every  day?  A.  Except  Saturday.  Saturday 
they  work  ten — no,  nine  hours. 

Q.  How  many  girls  at  $5.00  a week?  A.  Twenty-nine  at  $5.00. 

Q.  At  $5.50?  A.  We  have  two  at  $5.50. 

Q.  How  many  at  $6.00?  A.  Twenty-two. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  class?  Six  dollars  and  a half?  A.  Six  at  $6.50. 

Q.  How  many  at  $7.00?  A.  Thirty-four. 

Q.  At  $7.50?  A.  Seven. 

Q.  At  $8.00?  A.  Thirty-three. 

Q.  How  many  are  getting  more  than  $8.00  a week,  now?  A.  I shall 
have  to  add  it  up.  There  is  one  at  $8.50,  and  123  from  $9.00  up,  up  to  $35.00. 

Q.  Then  something  over  half  your  girls  get  $8.00  or  less,  over  half 
your  girls  receive  less  than  $8.00?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Pardon  me,  that 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Is  not  correct.  I beg  your  pardon.  There  are  123  that 
get  $8.50  and  over.  There  are  33  who  get  $8.00. 

Q.  One  hundred  and  twenty-four,  though,  that  get  less  than  $8.00?  A. 
I will  tell  you  in  a moment. 

Q.  One  hundred  and  twenty-three  get  less  than  $8.00?  A.  Yes,  less 
than  that.  One  hundred  and  fifty-seven  get  $8.00  and  over,  123  get  less 
than  $8.00. 

Q.  We  will  consider  the  123  that  get  less  than  $8.00.  Do  you  believe 
that  an  employer  has  some  moral  responsibility  for  an  employe?  A.  Yes, 
I do;  but  I think  in  many  instances  that  moral  responsibility  receives  atten- 
tion at  his  hands. 

Q.  Now,  feeling  that  there  is  some  moral  responsibility,  you  have 
conducted  an  investigation,  have  you,  into  the  matter  of  the  cost  of  living 
of  the  employe?  A.  Yes,  I have  inquired  from  a number  of  girls  who 
receive  salaries  from  $7.00  to  $12.00  or  $15.00  a week  what  their  cost  of 
living  is. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  inquired  about  it  of  those  girls  who  get  less  than 
$7.00?  A.  I don’t  think  I have  for  this  reason — because  they  are  not  de- 
pendent upon  that  wage  for  their  living,  entirely.  I am  giving  you  my 
experience.  You  cannot  disagree  with  me  on  my  experience.  I will  tell 
jou  exactly  what  they  have  told  me  about  it. 

Q.  Let  us  have  your  information  on  that  subject.  A.  I have  found 
that  the  average  cost  of  board  and  room  among  girls  in  Peoria  is  about 
$5.50  a week. 

Q.  Room  and  board?  A.  There  are  some  who  manage  to  live  on  as 
low,  I have  found,  as  $3.00  a week,  that  is  for  board  alone;  but  I do  not 
believe  that  they  could  live,  year  in  and  year  out,  on  that  amount,  without 
suffering. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Board  is  $5.50,  you  think?  A.  Five  dollars 
and  a half  is  not  the  minimum,  but  above  the  average,  and  I will  tell  you 
why,  a number  pf  our  people  live  at  a certain  boarding  house,  which  is 
almost  adjacent.  I don’t  know  if  you  can  see  it,  the  Franklin  House.  Some 
of  our  employes  who  receive  as  much  as  $50.00  to  $60.00  a month  live  there. 


298  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

and  pay  $5.00  a week  for  board  and  room.  What  they  pay  for  clothing 
depends  entirely  upon  their  inclination  and  stipend,  of  course. 

Q.  What  does  it  cost  these  girls  to  dress,  in  your  opinion?  A.  I 
should  say  that  the  average  is  $1.00  a week,  possibly  a little  more. 

Q.  Is  that  a good  fair  average,  Mr.  Block?  Can  a girl  dress  herself 
pretty  well  on  that,  well  enough  to  appear  in  the  store  and  look  neat?  A. 
O,  yes.  There  are  many  who  spend  more  than  that.  They  can  afford  to 
spend  more  than  that. 

Q.  We  do  not  care  about  the  girl  who  can  afford  to  spend  more.  We 
want  to  know  about  the  girl  who  can  merely  spend  enough.  A.  No  doubt 
there  are  a good  many  girls  in  our  employ  wjio  are  clothed  on  less  than  that, 
because  in  their  homes  their  mothers  make  things  over  for  them  and  con- 
tribute to  the  cost  of  their  clothes,  in  that  way. 

Q.  A girl’s  laundry  work  costs  some  money — how  much,  say?  A. 
(Senior):  Most  of  them  do  it  themselves. 

Q.  The  girls  themselves  do  it?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I know  that  a good 
many  do  that,  in  that  way.  M^e  close  at  5:30,  and  a girl  who  is  of  a saving 
nature  will  do  those  things  herself.  She  does  not  want  to  be  on  the  streets, 
and  she  wants  to  appear  neat,  so  she  does  it  herself. 

Q.  She  gets  home  at  half  past  five,  after  working  all  day,  and  does  her 
washing?  A.  Yes,  sir;  she  has  nothing  else  to  do.  A girl  who  wants  to 
be  neat,  soon  finds  there  are  simple  things  in  the  way  of  laundry  of  her 
own  things,  and  mending,  that  she  can  do  in  the  evening  very  well,  and 
still  have  time  for  amusement  left. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  One  of  our  witnesses  who  testified  at  the 
hearings  in  Chicago  stated  that  25  cents  a week  was  a fair  allowance  for  a 
working  girl’s  laundry  expense.  We  were  amused  when  we  received  from 
Philadelphia  a letter,  signed  by  some  two  or  three  hundred  girls  working 
in  one  of  the  large  department  stores,  asking  the  name  of  the  woman  who 
would  do  laundry  work  for  25  cents  a person  per  week,  stating  that  if  they 
could  get  her  name  and  address  they  would  send  the  work  out  west  to  her, 
prepaid,  by  the  parcel  post. 

MR.  BLOCK,  SR.:  Yes,  they  do  it  themselves.  I do  not  say  that  all 
of  the  girls  do  it,  but  it  can  be  done,  especially  in  cases  where  they  get 
home  at  half-past  five  o’clock.  I asked  a good  many  of  our  employes  when 
I heard  of  these  matters. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  girls  do  you  think  do  their  own  washing?  A.  I 
don’t  know  the  number. 

Q.  Quite'  a number,  you  think?  A.  I just  heard  of  it;  heard  of  it 
from  the  girls,  yes. 

MR.  BLOCK,  JR.:  Of  course,  I know  that  many  of  the  girls  do  it 
themselves,  or  it  is  done  home,  because  nearly  all  of  our  girls  live  at  home. 
When  a girl  comes  to  us  for  work,  the  question  is  asked  where  she  lives. 
If  the  girl  is  entirely  dependent  upon  what  she  earns  for  a living,  we  tell 
her  frankly  that  unless  she  is  capable  of  earning  at  least  $8.00  a week,  she 
better  not  assume  the  problem.  It  is  always  a great  problem  to  educate  a 
girl  up  to  the  point  where  she  can  support  herself  at  all,  and  our  experience 
and  policy  has  been,  that  unless  a girl  is  capable  of  earning  $8.00  a week, 
after  she  has  been  with  us  long  enough  to  understand  the  detail  and  rou- 
tine of  the  work  she  is  doing,  we  hav'e  made  a bad  bargain  in  hiring  that 
girl,  and  the  sooner  we  replace  her  with  some  one  who  is  ambitious,  who 
is  capable,  cheerful  and  energetic,  and  loyal,  the  better  off  we  will  be.  It 
is  a great  expense  to  every  business  to  bring  a girl  up  to  that  state  where 
she  can  earn  enough  to  clothe,  feed  and  shelter  herself.  It  does  not  seem 
exactly  right  that  a child — a girl  si.xteen  years  old  is  only  a child — who 
is  suddenl}^  thrust  upon  her  own  resources,  should  become  a ward  of  any 
business.  It  is  a very  unfortunate  circumstance  when  a girl  between  six- 
teen and  twenty  years  old  finds  it  necessary  to  support  herself,  without 
any  assistance,  without  any  friends,  and  it  seems  to  me  it  is  the  duty  of 
the  community,  through  some  adequate  agency,  to  look  after  those  girls 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


299 


as  they  do  after  other  dependent  classes,  morally  and  physically,  for  her 
best  welfare,  until  she  is  in  a position  to  look  after  her  physical  and  moral 
welfare  herself,  and  competent  to  do  so.  It  is  in  that  critical  period  of 
the  girl’s  life  that  she  is  subjected  to  these  temptations.  It  is  not,  in  most 
cases,  I think,  due  to  the  fact  that  she  has  to  have  more  money  than  she 
is  being  paid,  in  order  to  live,  that  she  is  forced  to  commit  a crime  or 
induced  to  commit  a crime.  I will  state,  as  an  illustration  of  this,  the  fact 
that  every  girl  I can  recall,  who  was  ever  detected  in  a theft,  in  our  employ, 
did  not  steal  articles  which  were  in  the  nature  of  necessities.  I can  call 
your  attention  to  a girl  I will  refer  to  as  Ethel.  For  a girl  of  sixteen  or 
seventeen  years  old,  it  was  perfectly  astonishing  to  look  over  the  number 
and  class  of  articles  that  girl  stole.  She  had  several  bracelets,  she  had 
rings,  she  had  a watch,  bangles,  everything  was  some  article  of  jewelry, 
for  which  she  could  have  no  use  at  all,  in  the  way  of  necessity,  and  on 
which  she  had  not  tried  to  realize  any  money.  Day  before  yesterday  a 
girl  about  seventeen  years  old — she  was  not  employed  by  us,  however — 
was  detected  in  the  act  of  theft.  She  had  stolen  three  willow  plumes, 
valued  possibly  at  $12.00  to  $15.00,  very  showy  plumes,  entirely  out  of 
keeping  with  the  costume  she  was  wearing.  I might  say  that  this  matter 
you  are  investigating  has,  to  sopie  extent,  had  our  attention  for  many  years 
past.  At  different  times  I have  gone  into  the  conditions  that  exist  in 
regard  to  these  various  girls.  I will  speak  particularly  of  one  case,  where 
a girl  ran  away  from  home  and  was  married.  Her  husband  lost  employ- 
ment. They  had  been  very  short  of  money,  and  she  told  me  that  she  did 
not  have  a cent.  So  I asked,  “What  were  you  going  to  do  with  the 
plumes?”  The  reply  was  that  she  was  going  to  wear  them.  I asked,  “Were 
you  not  going  to  sell  the  plumes?”  and  she  said,  “No.”  There  are  two 
typical  cases  in  which  the  poverty-stricken  condition  of  these  girls  cer- 
tainly did  not  contribute  to  their  crimes,  in  the  sense  of  a lack  of  the 
necessities  of  life.  It  was  not  a determining  factor  in  either  crime.  They 
stole  to  obtain  articles  they  did  not  need.  I might  cite  your  attention  to 
another  girl,  who  was  declared  delinquent,  together  with  another  girl  who 
had  worked  for  us. 

Q.  She  was  her  partner?  A.  She  was  not  her  partner,  but  she  was 
sent  to  the  girls’  reformatory  institution  at  Geneva  at  the  same  time.  Last 
Monday  morning  it  was  reported  that  she  was  absent.  We  did  not  think 
anything  about  it  in  particular  until  we  investigated  it,  and  then  we  found 
that  the  girl  had  been  sent  to  the  jail  and  was  in  the  custody  of  the  police 
matron.  She  had  got  into  trouble,  it  happened,  had  drank,  stayed  away 
from  home  all  night.  Her  parents  investigated  and  found  that  she  had 
become  wayward.  We  investigated  the  circumstances  of  both  of  these 
girls  and  found  that  their  parents  permitted  them  to  retain  their  savings, 
and  thought  the  girls  were  putting  them  in  the  bank.  I think  it  is  very 
necessary,  in  struggling  with  these  problems,  as  far  as  they  concern  the 
department  store,  to  take  into  consideration  the  evolution  of  the  depart- 
ment store.  It  has  been  a comparatively  new  proposition  in  the  com- 
mercial field.  The  evolution  has  been  slow  and  experimental,  and  today 
the  expenses  and  statistics  have  been  figured  to  an  extent  that  now  enables 
most  department  stores  to  make  a living.  Up  to  this  time  they  have  been 
primarily  interested  in  building  up  their  business  and  endeavoring  to  put 
the  business  on  a stable  footing,  rather  than  the  making  of  profits  as 
would  be  the  direct  aim  in  a manufacturing  or  other  well-established 
business. 

Q.  You  say  primarily  they  have  been  interested  in  building  up  their 
stores?  A.  They  have  had  to  be.  It  was  a struggle. 

Q.  Having  built  up  their  establishments,  you  believe  one  of  their 
chief  concerns  now  will  be,  perhaps,  in  looking  into  the  conditions  of  the 
girls?  A.  That  is  exactly  what  I want  to  bring  out.  It  has  taken 
courage,  ability  and  intelligence  to  rear  these  vast  structures,  and  I think 
that  practically  all  people  admit  they  are  a benefit  in  modern  life,  in 
convenience  and  economy,  and  that  they  have  demonstrated  their  fitness 
CO  live,  because  they  are  a benefit.  They  have  not  made  their  advance  at 
the  expense  of  the  small  retailer.  Statistics  will  prove  that  there  are  more 
small  dealers  today  in  the  ratio  to  the  large  department  store  than  there 
ever  were  at  any  previous  time.  More  energy,  ability  and  courage  can  be 
enlisted  in  your  cause  if  you  go  at  it  in  the  right  way.  I don’t  think  there 


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is  any  employer  who  does  not  appreciate  the  fact  that  conditions  of  hiS 
lielp  are  going  to  affect  the  efficienc}'  of  his  business  by  means  of  the 
reactionary  effect  upon  the  value  of  the  work  done  by  his  employes.  I 
want  you  to  picture  this  situation.  I bring  it  up  because  it  is  the  one 
thing  that  has  been  referred  to  especially,  in  connection  with  the  depart- 
ment store — perhaps  more  than  any  other  one  thing.  It  is  malicious.  It 
has  done  us  a great  deal  of  harm.  In  the  instance  of  your  own  homes,  when 
a girl  comes  to  apply  for  a position  in  the  kitchen,  even  though  the  ques- 
tion of  morals  does  not  directly  enter  into  the  question  at  all,  would  the 
housewife  figure  she  was  going  to  get  more  efficiency  from  a girl  who  was 
getting  $3.00  a week,  and  was  out  on  the  street  at  nights  adding  to  her 
income,  than  she  w’ould  receive  from  a girl  by  paying  her  $5.00  and 
requiring  her  to  be  home,  or  in  other  moral  surroundings  in  her  leisure 
time?  The  same  thing  is  true  in  our  business.  We  know  that  a girl 
cannot  go  out  and  make  money  in  any  way,  in  the  remaining  hours  of  the 
day,  legitimately  or  illegitimately,  and  still  give  her  work  luring  the  day 
the  right  attention,  and  retain  her  health  and  efficiency. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  speak  of  the  girl  being  out  nights.  You 
find  that  out,  don’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  Well,  we  simply  cannot  keep  a girl  of  that 
kind.  We  cannot  afford  to  keep  her.  The  other  girls  will  not  harbor  a 
girl  of  that  kind  in  their  midst. 

Q.  It  is  reported  to  you?  A.  Not  by  the  girls  who  are  guiltj'  of 
immoral  conduct,  but  the  girls  with  whom  they  come  in  contact. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  any  other  way  of  finding  out? 
A.  If  it  becomes  generally  known,  it  comes  to  our  attention,  and  often 
people  who  are' customers  of  our  house,  and  who  are  anxious  to  help  us 
to  keep  up  a high  personality  of  employes,  will  let  us  know  about  these 
things. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Hillman’s,  in  Chicago,  keeps  a lady  doctor, 
and  she  makes  a practice  of  going  around  and  talking  to  the  girls,  and  get- 
ting them  to  reform,  if  they  are  of  that  kind.  Thej-  are  going  to  put  on  a 
man,  who  is  a detective,  j'ou  might  say.  The  lady  doctor  will  report  to 
this  detective,  and  he  will  shadow  them  and  find  out  if  it  is  really  so,  and 
then  take  the  girls  up  before  her  and  give  them  a good  talking  to.  Do 
you  endorse  that?  A.  We  try  to  exercise  as  close  supervision  as  possible, 
and  at  the  present  time  we  are  negotiating  with  a woman  to  take  just  such 
a position,  because  we  recognize  the  excellence  of  the  idea.  It  is  very 
difficult  to  get  such  a woman.  We  call  her  a welfare  woman.  It  is  dif- 
ficult to  get  a woman  who  can  act  in  that  capacity  and  look  after  the 
responsibilities  of  that  position,  because  they  are  great.  L^nless  workers 
of  that  class  can  get  close  to  the  girls,  can  actually  get  the  confidence  of 
the  girls,  there  is  nothing  accomplished  that  is  of  benefit.  In  connection 
with  the  fact  that  it  has  been  popularly  supposed,  in  fact,  has  been  stated 
on  what  purported  to  be  very  good  authority,  that  some  department  stores 
presume  that  a girl  will  make  enough  to  support  herself  “on  the  outside,” 
so  to  speak,  in  addition  to  what  they  pay  her,  and  they  take  advantage  of 
that  condition  to  pay  girls  very  low  wages,  I want  to  say  that  this  is  what 
might  be  called  a popular  fable.  It  has  been  attributed  to  the  largest  store 
in  each  city  of  fair  size  for  over  a generation.  The  statement  was  made 
by  a professor  of  sociology  in  Yale.  It  is  surprising  the  class  of  people 
who  will  exhume  this  ancient  myth  and  attempt  to  voice  it  as  an  original 
discovery. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  V’e  do  not  think  that  is  true  of  department 
stores. 

JL^NIOR:  I am  merelj-  telling  you  how  these  stories  become  cur- 
rent. The  statement  was  taken  up  before  the  National  Dry  Goods  Associa- 
tion at  a recent  convention,  in  which  the  welfare  problem  was  probably 
the  most  important  proposition  discussed.  It  was  ascribed  to  a New 
York  clergyman,  who  stated  he  had  been  shown,  in  a New  York  depart- 
ment store,  a list  of  j^oung  men  who  were  willing  to  contribute  to  the 
support  of  girls.  That  picturesque  lie  was  nailed  in  the  head  by  the 


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301 


I National  Civic  Association  of  New  York,  an  association  that  is  conducting 
exactly  the  same  work  that  this  Committee  has  before  it  at  this  time.  I 
had  a talk  with  Miss  Gertrude  Weeks,  who  was  at  that  time  the  secretary 
of  the  association.  She  told  me  that  she  had  investigated  conditions  in 
nineteen  of  the  largest  department  stores  in  New  York,  and  she  could 
absolutely  refute  the  statement  that  such  a condition  existed,  and  that 
any  cognizance  was  had  on  the  part  of  the  proprietors  of  department  stores 
of  any  immorality  occurring  in  their  midst. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Don’t  you  think  that  girls  who  are  working 
for  $3.00  or  $4.00  a week,  on  which  they  can  hardly  subsist,  are  more 
I liable  to  go  astray,  and  to  yield  to  temptation,  than  girls  getting  $12.00  a 

: week?  A.  It  may  be  that  they  are  more  liable  to  do  that,  but  our  experi- 

; ence  has.  been  that  the  reality  is,  with  girls  who  commit  crimes  the  wages 
were  not  a factor  and  the  articles  not  taken  to  be  sold. 

Q.  This  girl  took  the  jewelry,  you  think,  for  the  fun  of  stealing,  and 

! she  was  not  going  to  sell  it,  you  feel  sure?  A.  Well,  it  is  a problem. 

You  don’t  know  why  they  do  it.  I don’t  know  why  she  did  it.  I might 
cite  the  problem  of  two  of  the  girls  who  appeared  before  the  Committee 
; during  the  session  here  this  morning.  I don’t  think  it  is  fair  to  allow  the 
impression  to  go  out  that  their  misfortunes  were  due  to  receiving  low 
i wages.  The  first  girl  wTo  worked  from  6 to  8 o’clock  every  day  in  the 
i week  entered,  in  fact,  a notorious  assignation  house,  a house  of  prostitution. 

Q.  She  said  it  was  a candy  store.  A.  Well,  everybody  in  town 
knows  what  it  is.  It  is  harder  fair  to  say  the  girl  entered  into  a house 
because  the  wages  she  received  were  not  enough  to  support  her. 

I Q.  What  about  the  second  girl?  A.  Well,  to  take  the  case  of  the 

second  girl,  also.  It  is  not  fair  to  say  that  the  wages  paid  were  not 
enough.  She  admitted  that  she  gave  everything  she  made  to  the  man 
who  caused  her  to  solicit  and  to  do  wrong.  If  she  made  as  much  as 
$20.00  in  a week,  she  would  give  it  all  to  the  man. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  She  did  not  give  her  wages  to  the  man;  it 

I was  the  proceeds  of  solicitation  she  gave  him.  A.  The  point  was  brought 
out  that  she  was  forced  to  solicit. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  She  was  home,  earning  wages,  and  giving  it  to 
her  parents,  before  this  young  man  induced  her  to  leave  home  and  made 
' her  go  on  the  street  and  solicit  for  money.  A.  She  was  not  prostituting 

' herself  on  account  of  the  wages.  So  it  is  hardly  fair  to  allow  that  impres- 

sion to  go  out. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

t CHAIRMAN  O’FIARA:  You  stated  that  the  Committee  should  co- 

: operate  with  the  employers.  That  is  your  view  of  the  matter?  A.  Yes, 

J sir. 

Ij  Q.  You  believe  that  is  the  purpose  of  this  Committee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  co-operate  with  the  employers  and  employes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  May  I ask  you  what  the  net  profits  of  your  company  were  during 

the  last  year?  A.  I don’t  know  the  amount,  offhand. 

Q.  Do  you  know  roughly?  A.  I know  that  if  we  make  an  ordinary 
I interest  return  on  the  business  we  handle,  we  think  we  are  very  fortunate. 

! Q.  Do  you  know,  roughly  speaking,  what  the  profits  of  the  business 

I were  during  the  last  year?  A.  I would  not  say.  I don’t  know,  exactly, 
j Q.  I want  to  ask  you  if  you  think  you  are  co-operating  with  this 

I Committee  in  withholding  that  information?  A.  I tell  you,  I am  not  in 
[ position  to  give  it  if  I wanted  to,  so  I am  not  opposing  the  Committee  in 
I not  having  the  ability  to  state. 

i CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I am  asking  that  of  you,  as  a typical  em- 

I ployer.  This  Committee  has  been  told  that  the  matter  of  low  wages  has 
something  to  do  with  the  girls’  downfall.  We  have  had  girl  after  girl,  of 
different  types,  and  we  have  had  social  workers  tell  us  that.  Then,  we 
want  to  find  out  from  the  employers  their  profits,  in  order  that  we  may 
determine  from  the  actual  statistics  whether  they  can  afford  to  pay  the 
girls  living  wages.  We  ask  that  question  of  you,  of  your  firm,  and  you 


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refuse  to_  answer.  Then  at  the  same  time  you  talk  about  the  theory  of 
co-operation.  We  are  very  glad  to  have  the  theory  in  our  record  and  very 
glad  to  hear  it,  but  we  insist,  at  the  same  time,  that  you  are  not  co-operat- 
ing with  this  Committee  unless  you  give  us  the  information  which  we 
have  a right  to  get  from  you  if  we  use  the  full  power  vested  in  this 
Committee.  So  far,  this  Committee  is  trying  to  co-operate,  and  the  em- 
ployers who  refuse  to  tell  us  their  profits  are  not  co-operating. 

MR.  BLOCK,  JR.:  It  seems  to  me,  Mr.  O’Hara,  if  I may  venture 
the  suggestion,  that  there  are  many  ways,  more  fundamental  ways,  and 
ways  of  much  greater  importance,  in  which  we  can  co-operate  than  by 
disclosing  matters  which  are  of  a fiduciary  nature.  The  things  we  actually 
could  do  for  the  employes  in  connection  with  this  Committee,  to  create  a 
better  condition,  will  be  more  substantial  in  their  nature  than  can  be 
accomplished  by  giving  out  information  which  is  of  necessity  of  a private 
nature  and  should  only  be  given  out  to  our  board  of  directors. 

Q.  You  are  employing,  roughly  speaking,  100  girls  at  less  than  $6.50 
a week,  which  amount  you  have  just  given  as  3'our  figures  to  pay  for 
room,  board  and  clothing?  A.  They  do  not  have  to  depend  on  that.  We 
figure  that  as  an  element. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that?  A.  We  have  that  much  interest  in  our 
girls  we  find  it  out. 

Q.  You  have  100  girls  working  for  less  than  $6.50.  How  old  are 
they?  A.  I cannot  answer. 

Q.  The  range,  generally.  A.  Afostly  under  twentj%  although  some 
of  them  might  be  forty. 

Q.  Has  any  girl  now  getting  $6.50,  or  under,  worked  for  your  estab- 
lishment longer  than  two  years,  would  j'ou  say?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  say  that  two  years  is  the  average  period  of  service?  A. 
Average  period? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No.  I could  not  answer  that  question  at  all. 

Q.  These  girls,  I take  it  from  your  statement,  most  of  them  are 
under  twenty?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Most  of  them  live  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  legal  age  of  a woman?  A.  Nineteen,  I believe. 
(Voices:  eighteen.) 

Q.  Some  of  these  women  getting  $6.50  a week  are  above  the  legal 
age?  A.  O,  yes. 

Q.  Now,  does  it  make  any  difference,  as  a matter  of  fact,  whether 
she  lives  at  home  with  her  people  or  whether  she  goes  out,  rents  a room 
and  pays  for  her  board?  A.  Yes,  it  does.  I think  that  is  the  determining 
factor.  Until  you  differentiate  along  that  line,  I think  you  cannot  ac- 
complish the  object  for  which  >'ou  seek,  and  I will  tell  you  whj'.  The  girl 
who  is  adrift,  who  has  not  a home  and  its  moral  protection,  is  the  girl 
who  is  exposed.  It  is  not  the  girl  at  home.  It  is  a good  deal  more 
necessary,  it  seems  to  me,  to  give  added  protection  to  the  girl  who  is 
adrift  some  manner  of  adequate  protection  than  it  is  to  give  protection  to 
the  girl  at  home.  I would  rather  see  legislation  passed  which  gave  $1.00  a 
week  more  to  the  girl  who  is  adrift,  than  to  the  girl  who  is  at  home,  who 
does  not  need  it  as  much;  in  fact,  may  not  need  it  at  all. 

Q.  Then  you  believe  the  home  should  _bear  part  of  the  burden  of 
supporting  people  who  give  all  their  productive  time  to  building  up  your 
business  and  making  jmur  profits?  A.  I think  it  is  just  like  a bird  blown 
out  of  a nest 

Q.  Let  us  talk  about  the  girls  and  let  the  birds  go.  A.  It  is  analagous. 
When  the  girl  is  sixteen,  she  is  still  a child  and  unable  to  support  herself. 
She  is  a ward  of  the  business. 

Q.  Are  you  running  it  as  a charity  or  a business?  A.  As  a business, 
but  at  the  same  time  we  have  to  consider  the  welfare  of  the  emploj'es. 

Q.  Do  you  lose  money  on  the  girl  to  whom  3'ou  pa3-  $6.00  a week? 
A.  I think  we  do,  in  man3^  cases. 

Q.  On  the  girl  you  pay  $4.50,  3^011  lose  money?  A.  Not  on  that  girl, 
because  she  is  running  errands.  She  is  not  given  any  responsibilit3’  until 


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303 


she  has  had  a chance  to  familiarize  herself  with  the  routine  of  the  business. 

Q.  Let  us  get  down  to  the  general  rule.  You  hire  a girl  at  $5.00, 
$6.00  and  $7.00.  Do  you  consider  you  are  going  to  make  money  out  of 
her  work  or  lose  money  on  her,  and  if  you  are  going  to  lose  money,  why 
would  you  hire  her?  A.  No,  sir;  we  don’t  expect  to  lose,  except  up  to  a 
certain  point. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  If  you  will  allow  me 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Yes,  we  would  like  your  observation  on  that 
point 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  A good  many  girls,  and  young  men,  too,  arc 
hired  as  a sort  of  apprentices.  They  are  taken  in  to  learn  the  business. 
We' keep  them — for  instance,  if  the  girl  is  paid  as  low  as  $4.00  and  $4.50 — 
under  observation.  If  any  of  the  girls  come,  any  time  of  the  year,  and 
say,  “Mr.  Block,  we  ought  to  have  a little  more  money,’’  that  is  noted. 
We  have  a record  of  their  work.  A good  many  of  these  girls  are  sales- 
women. The  wages  they  get  and  the  percentage  is  recorded.  In  other 
words,  we  know  what  it  costs  us  to  sell  goods,  as  far  as  it  concerns  that 
one  person.  If  the  girls  do  sell  enough  so  that  we  can  afford  to  pay  6 
per  cent,  or  5 per  cent,  or  7 per  cent,  we  are  satisfied;  but  if  any  girls  sell 
so  very  little  that  instead  of  it  costing  5 per  cent,  it  costs,  say,  8 per  cent, 
we  let  them  go,  because  wo  would  be  losing  money  on  them  continually. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  exactly  what  I am  trying  to  get  at. 
If  you  lose  money  on  a girl  you  let  the  girl  go?  A.  First  we  give  her  a 
warning,  unless  she  does  better. 

Q.  You  are  very  just  to  her;  but  if  you  lose  money  on  her,  you  let 
her  go?  A.  Every  six  months,  if  nobody  comes  with  a request  for  more 
money,  we  go  over  the  records  of  the  girls,  anyway,  or  even  oftener, 
whenever  it  is  thought  necessary,  but  twice  a year  in  any  event  this  is 
done.  We  go  over  the  figures  for  all  those  girls,  what  they  earn  and 
what  their  percentages  are.  We  observe  that  she  comes  down  from  6 and 
7 per  cent,  that  she  sells  so  much  it  costs  only  5 or  4 per  cent,  and  she 
gets,  without  asking  for  it,  an  increase  in  the  amount  of  her  wages.  Then, 
on  a good  many  articles,  if  they  sell  so  much,  as  an  Incentive,  we  give  a 
percentage  on  the  profit.  We  say,  “If  you  sell  $2,000,  what  you  sell  over 
$2,000,  besides  your  weekly  wages,  you  get  on  those  sales  4 or  5 per  cent 
extra  on  all  you  sell  above  that  line.’’  We  do  that  in  order  to  get  better 
work  from  our  help,  and  the  better  feeling  of  the  heln  also.  I feel  always 
better  when  anybody  does  well  in  our  employ.  I feel  badly  when  an 
employe  is  so  inefficient  that  we  cannot  pay  more  wages,  because  the 
best  help  is  the  cheapest  help  in  the  end. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Junior:  Invariably  so. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  I have  been  a clerk  myself.  Three  3'^ears  I 
worked  for  nothing;  I got  my  board. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  have  a bill  in  the  General  Assembly  to 
create  a commission  to  fix  a minimum  price  for  women. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  What  is  that? 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  minimum  wage;  that  is,  the  lowest  legal 
wage.  What  do  you  think  would  be  a fair  price  to  make  the  minimum 
wage?  I do  not  mean  little  young  girls,  but  young  women.  What  do  you 
think  would  be  the  minimum,  so  they  could  be  properly  fed  and  housed, 
and  dressed  properly,  and  have  a little  amusement?  I mean  to  be  pre- 
scribed universally,  all  over  the  State,  not  only  in  your  store,  but  in  every 
other  establishment  of  that  kind. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  That  would  necessarily  have  to  be  uniform, 
otherwise  it  would  throw  us  out  of  competition  with  others.  I should 
say  they  ought  to  have  $8.00. 

Q.  _ Eight  dollars  a week?  A.  If  they  are  not  worth  $8.00  they  are 
not  desirable  help.  If  we  had  them  any  length  of  time,  and  we  could  not 
give  them  that  much,  we  would  let  them  go.  There  is  just  where  the 
difficulty  comes  in.  They  are  not  worth  to  a business,  in  many  cases,  $8.00, 


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SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  the  lowest  wages  that  you  pay?  A. 
Four  dollars.  We  could  do  without  them,  because  they  only  run  errands. 

Q.  Would  you  not  have  to  use  someone  else  for  their  work?  A.  No, 

sir. 

Q.  Suppose  you  should  advance  them  $1.00  a week,  would  it  hurt 
your  profits  any,  or  the  dividends  to  be  paid  annually  on  your  stock?  A. 
We  have  it  on  the  percentage  basis,  on  the  clerks  who  sell.  If  we  can  pay 
them  5 per  cent  on  their  sales,  we  do  that.  If  we  have  to  pay  them  8 
per  cent,  we  lose  3 per  cent. 

Q.  That  does  not  exactly  answer  my  question.  If  the  State  Legisla- 
ture should  pass  a law,  making  the  minimum  wage  $8.00,  do  you  think  j-ou 
could  afford  to  pay  that,  on  the  profits  you  are  making  on  your  sales  of 
goods — do  you  think  you  could  afford  it?  A.  If  the  woman  is  worth  it. 

Q.  You  would  not  keep  her  if  she  is  not  worth  it.  Could  j-ou  afford 
to  pay  it  to  good  girls?  A.  If  they  can  make  it  they  get  it  now,  without 
any  law  at  all. 

Q.  You  say  you  are  paying  some  girls  in  your  store  only  $4.00?  A. 
A girl  that  brings  out  packages  is  only  worth  $4.00.  We  could  not  afford 
to  pay  her  $8.00. 

Q.  Could  you  pay  her;  that  is,  the  girl  who  is  getting  $4.00 — could 
you  afford  to  pay  her  $5.00  a week?  A.  They  mostly  are  getting  what 
they  are  worth.  I cannot  say  what  a girl  is  worth  as  I sit  here.  I do  not 
know  if  she  is  worth  $5.00.  I would  want  to  find  it  out  by  testing  her. 

Q.  You  have  the  right  to  hire  and  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  judgment  they  are  all  right  when  you  hire  them?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  afford,  on  your  present  profits,  to  increase  that  girl 
from  $4.00  to  $5.00  or  $6.00  on  your  present  profits?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  all  I want  to  know — j^ou  could  afford  to  do  it?  A.  Yes, 
but  it  is  always  done,  anyway,  if  the  girl  earns  it. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  The  only  difficulty  is  that  it  is  impracticable 
in  some  of  its  aspects.  That  is  the  question.  I want  to  help  my  emploj'es. 
I give  them  all  they  are  worth. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  reason  you  see  such  a lot  of  members  of 
the  Senate  and  House  present  here  today  is  because  they  are  especially 
interested  in  this  matter,  and  they  will  have  to  vote  on  the  pending  bill. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  Let  me  ask  this  question:  If  j-our  law  makes 
it,  say,  $10.00  a week,  or  $8.00  a week,  and  a girl  is  not  worth  it.  She  will 
lose  her  position,  surehq  if  she  is  not  worth  it.  Instead  of  helping  that 
class  of  people,  you  will  do  them  harm,  because  in  many  cases  they  will 
not  be  able  to  get  such  positions  as  they  are  competent  to  fill._  Thej-  will 
be  incompetent  to  fill  the  places  upon  which  there  is  a minimum  wage 
they  cannot  earn. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  could  figure  it  as  apprentice  wages. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  Some  goods  can  be  sold  at  5 per  cent  profit. 
There  are  other  expenses  that  figure  in  it,  however.  If  the  girl  cannot 
fill  the  position  for  which  you  demand  $8.00,  she  falls  down  in  the  scale 
and  she  will  not  get  anything.  ^Ye  would  not  pa}’  her  $8.00,  and  she  loses 
her  position. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Up  to  two  years  a.go  I was  engaged  in  the 
manufacturing  business.  At  that  time  I retired  from  active  business.  Our 
factory  paid  a union  scale.  Everj’thing  had  a fixed  union  scale.  Every 
April  we  sign  up  a scale  of  wages  for  that  year,  and  we  do  not  have  any 
strikes  or  kicking  for  more  wages.  It  goes  on  for  a year  under  that  set 
scale.  Wouldn’t  you  rather  have  a scale  of  wages,  and  you  have  the 
privilege  of  hiring  and  discharging  whom  you  pleased,  having  a minimum 
scale  of  wages,  than  to  have  it  like  it  is,  with  the  help  running  from  one 
store  to  another  and  inquiring  for  bigger  wages,  and  going  as  it  is  now? 

MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  I guess  that  is  so.  You  are  a business  man. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  bet  I am.  I am  a common  every-day 
blacksmith,  is  what  I am. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


305 


I 

-I  MR.  BLOCK,  Senior;  Doesn’t  a practical  business  man  know  the 
: Value  of  his  help  better  than  any  committee? 

• ' SENATOR  BEALL:  I am  with  you  on  that;  yes,  sir.  If  the  employe 
I s not  worth  good  wages,  we  don’t  want  him. 

ill  MR.  BLOCK,  Senior:  The  majority  of  the  business  men  I believe 
i Want  to  do  justice.  If  they  don’t,  they  can’t  get  good  help.  We  know 
t fetter,  with  our  system.  I can  give  you  the  figures,  every  day’s  record, 
oi  what  a girl’s  sales  are  and  the  percentage.  We  can  send  that  record 
' iiere  to  you,  and  show  it  all  the  way  through.  We  know,  for  that  reason, 

, fetter  what  a girl  is  worth  than  you  would. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I suppose  you  are  a self-made  man,  are  you? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  started  at  the  bottom  of  the  ladder?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
i SENATOR  BEALL;  I was  talking  with  Ed.  Hillman  at  Chicago  the 
other  day  and  he  said  he  worked  for  $2.50  a week  and  slept  on  the  counter, 
but  those  days  have  gone  by  and  things  have  changed. 

: MR.  BLOCK:  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  work  for  $2.50  a week?  A.  I came  over  in  the 
steerage,  so  I commenced  very  low,  and  I am  not  ashamed  of  that  fact. 


! MR.  BEALL:  Neither  am  I. 

j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Take  the  girls,  working  all  over  this  coun- 
try, in  stores  and  factories,  in  many  cases  the  wages  they  are  getting 
range  from  $3.00  to  $5.00  a week.  Would  you  not  agree  they  should  receive 
more  wages  in  order  that  their  incomes  should  meet  at  least  the  actual 
:cost  of  living?  A.  But,  my  dear  sir,  we  can  get  help  that  live  at  home, 
iand  the  girl  has  a good  home.  We  can  pay  such  a girl  $6.00.  There  are 
(hundreds  of  places  here  in  Peoria  where  thej'  pay  from  $4.00  to  $8.00  to 
the  servant  girl,  and  the  girls  have  a fine  home,  a better  home  than  they 
can  get  at  $8.00.  Honest  labor  is  no  disgrace. 

' SENATOR  BEALL:  My  wife  is  paying  a girl  $5.00  a week  and  her 
^board  and  room,  and  the  stores  do  not  pay  it,  nor  the  factories. 

Ii  MR.  BLOCK.  Senior;  Why  don’t  they  go  into  the  homes  when  they 
nhave  no  home?  Honest  work  is  certainly  no  disgrace. 


EXAMINATION  RESUMED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Is  there  any  girl  who  is  getting  $6.50  a 
week  that  you  could  afford  to  pay  $10.00  a week  to,  and  still  make  money 
from  her -services — is  there  one  girl?  A.  I don’t  think  so.  We  try  to 
make  it  as  nearly  equitable  as  it  is  possible  to  make  it.  There  might  be 
one  or  two  cases  overlooked,  but  as  Mr.  Henry  Block  has  said,  every  six 
months  he  looks  over  the  salary  list — and  in  the  meantime  the  superintend- 
ent is  giving  it  constant  attention. 

Q.  It  is  a cold-blooded  proposition?  You  are  paying  the  girl  what 
she  is  worth,  no  more  and  no  less?  You  are  paying  her  what  is  just  and 
fair,  but  it  is  a cold-blooded  proposition?  A.  A matter  of  salary. 

Q.  It  is  a cold-blooded  proposition,  and,  being  such,  have  you  any 

right  to  inquire  whether  the  girl  lives  at  home  or  whether  she  lives  some- 
where in  a rented  room?  A.  I think  we  have,  yes. 

Q.  What  right?  A.  Because  we  recognize,  the  same  as  you  do,  if  a 
girl  has  to  support  herself  she  cannot  do  it  on  less  than  $8.00.  If  she 
comes  to  us  and  has  not  had  an}^  experience,  we  know  she  is  not  worth 
$8.00.  We  tell  the  girl  she  should  seek  a position  in  a home,  and  lay  up 
enough  money  to  accept  a position  for  less  than  that  and  gradually  work 
up  in  this  field,  if  she  wants  to  enter  it.  There  are  many  positions  open 

to  a girl,  if  she  has  no  experience  in  our  line  of  business,  where  she  can 

support  herself  and  save  something  toward  entering  some  more  congenial 
work.  Every  professional  man  has  to  go  through  a period  when  he  is 
not  self-supporting  by  his  earnings  in  his  profession. 

Q.  If  she  is  living  at  home,  you  pay  her  less  than  what  you  consider 
is  a minimum  living  wage?  A.  If  we  think  there  is  a future  for  hor,  we 
try  to  teach  her  the  business.  Otherwise  we  would  not  consider  her  at 
any  price. 


306 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  If  you  thought  in  your  judgment  there  was  a future  for  her — not 
inquiring  what  that  future  migfrt  be — and  she  is  living  at  home,  you  will 
take  her  services  and  pay  her  less  than  what  you  know  to  be  a minimum 
living  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir;  if  you  put  it  that  way. 

Q.  These  girls  are  less  than  twenty,  some  of  them  are  they  not?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Most  are  under  twenty?  A.  That  would  be  my  opinion. 

Q.  There  might  be  some  above?  A.  Some  might  be  forty. 

Q.  Some  above  legal  age,  perhaps?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  when  you  accept  a girl  and  pay  her  less  than  the  minimum 
wage,  you  naturally  expect  the  home  from  which  she  comes  to  make  up 
the  amount  of  the  deficit  in  her  support?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  that  home  is  paying  something  toward  the  up- 
keep of  your  business?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No?  A.  There  are  many  cases  where  the  amount  the  girl  re- 
ceives is  the  alternative  of  no  income  for  her.  Where  there  are  two  or 
three  girls  in  a family,  and  the  mother  is  a widow,  and  has  some  other 
work  to  make  a living.  Those  two  girls  make  it  possible,  if  they  make 
$5.00  or  $6.00  as  wages,  with  the  mother’s  help,  for  the  family  to  live,  and 
the  mother  alone,  if  she  had  to  do  it  unaided,  could  not  support  the  house- 
hold, or  at  least,  if  the  girls  could  not  get  a position,  even  at  $6.00,  they 
would  all  be  much  poorer.  They  live,  really,  on  the  wages  of  the  two 
girls,  and  the  mother  often  stays  at  home. 

Q.  Do  you  conceive  that  the  homes  from  which  these  girls  come  are 
as  poor  as  the  girls  themselves?  A.  I don’t  understand. 

Q.  You  say  in  effect  that  the  home  must  pay  part  of  the  support  of 
those  girls.  Don’t  you  think  the  homes,  in  most  cases,  are  as  poor  as  the 
girls  who  come  from  such  homes?  In  other  words,  if  the  girls  did  not 
come  from  poor  homes  they  would  not  be  at  work  for  wages  as  small  as 
they  receive?  A.  It  is  presumed  the  family  needs  the  girl’s  help  or  she 
would  not  be  working. 

Q.  We  are  talking  about  co-operation,  and  that  is  the  aim  of  the 
questions  that  have  been  asked  you.  Don’t  you  think  a day  has  come  in 
this  country  when  any  girl  or  woman  who  works,  no  matter  whether  she 
lives  at  home  or  in  a rented  room,  is  entitled  to  and  will  receive  enough 
money  to  pay  all  her  living  expenses?  Don’t  you  think  that  day  is  coming 
very  soon?  A.  No,  I do  not.  I will  answer  that  question  in  this  wa}". 
While  we  pay  inexperienced  girls  who  come  to  us  to  learn  clerking,  and 
who  begin  such  work  in  our  store  for  the  first  time,  practically,  $6.00  a 
week — I do  not  think  we  take  a girl  at  less  than  that;  that  is,  a grown-up 
girl  who  is  competent  to  clerk  and  should  learn  it  readily — we  would 
rather  pay  that  same  girl  $8.00  a week  experienced  than  to  pay  her  $4.00 
inexperienced  if  we  could  get  her  for  $4.00.  While  we  are  paying  $6.00  I 
we  would  far  rather  have  an  experienced  girl  at  $8.00. 

Q.  In  the  old  days  of  black  slavery  the  slave  received,  in  return  for 
his  time  and  industry,  his  clothing,  his  food  and  his  living  in  general.  i 
Now,  under  these  conditions,  don’t  you  conceive  it  to  be  a fact  that  these 
girls,  who  are  getting  less  than  a living  wage,  are  getting  less  than  the 
black  slave  got  in  the  old  days  of  race  bondage?  A.  No,  sir.  I do  nol 
follow  your  line  of  reasoning  at  all. 

Q.  You  do  not  follow  my  line  of  reasoning?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  are  paying  girls  $5.00  a week,  and  know  it  costs  her 
$6.50,  or  $7.00,  or  $8.00  a week  to  live?  A.  No,  it  does  not  cost  that 
much  if  the  girl  lives  at  home.' 

Q.  Doesn’t  it?  A.  She  helps  the  famih-  at  home. 

Q.  Somebody  has  to  pay  it?  A.  No,  it  does  not  cost  the  girl  $8.00  to 
live  at  home. 

Q.  Is  there  some  sort  of  divine  provision  that  makes  it  cheaper  to 
maintain  the  girl  at  home?  A.  I do  not  say  that  it  does  not  cost  any- 
thing, but  it  costs  less  than  if  the  girl  is  adrift. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  the  girl  that  needs  help  is  the  one 
adrift?  A.  I say  that  the  girl  who  is  adrift  is  the  girl  that  needs  your 
attention. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


307 


:1 

j!  Q.  If  a bill  was  passed  for  a minimum  wage  scale,  would  you  favor 
, hat?  A.  If  I thought  it  would  help  the  girls  I would. 

1 Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  would?  A.  I am  not  satisfied  of  that.  In 
; Jew  Zealand,  where  there  is  a minimum  wage  scale,  the  tendency  has 
j ieen  to  make  it  the  maximum  wage  scale.  It  has  been  the  cause  of 
j browing  many  girls  out  of  employment.  It  has  been  the  bar  to  employ- 
I lent  of  those  who  could  not  earn  that  much  money.  If  this  proposed 
i Iw  provides  a means  whereby  they  can  reach  the  stage  of  efficiency, 
f ffiereby  they  can  support  themselves,  it  is  an  excellent  thing,  and  I 
! /ould  like  to  see  it  go  through. 

i Q.  You  would  like  to  see  it  enacted?  A.  If  it  makes  some  pro- 
\ ^sion  for  the  girls  to  learn  the  business. 


I 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  would  you  consider  a minimum  wage 
iw  should  be,  what  price?  A.  As  I say,  if  it  carries  with  it  some  way  of 
aking  care  of  the  girls  who  cannot  earn  the  amount  fixed 

Q.  How  taking  care  of  girls  that  cannot  earn  it?  A.  If  a girl  can 
iarn  $10.00  a week  I think  she  ought  to  have  it,  but  if  she  can  only  earn 
jS.OO  a week,  under  a $10.00  minimum  she  would  be  out  of  work. 

I Q.  If  she  cannot  earn  it,  as  an  apprentice  starting  in,  there  could  be 
ome  provision  made  for  an  apprentice’s  scale.  A.  I think  any  business 
5 wrong,  is  unhealthy,  if  after  she  has  served  a reasonable  time  she  cannot 
pake  a living  wage. 

! Q.  After  she  has  served  as  apprentice  she  ought  to  have  the  minimum 
yage  of  the  experienced  class.  What  do  you  think  that  ought  to  be?  A. 
t would  depend  on  the  nature  of  the  work.  I think  she  ought  to  have  at 
least  $8.00  a -week  after  she  has  worked  in  a business  long  enough  to  be 
jamiliar  with  it.  I would  not  undertake  to  say  that  she  ought  to  have 
that  when  she  is  not  worth  it,  however. 

1 Q.  _ What  would  you  say  such  a bill  ought  to  provide  in  the  matter  of 
Ipprentice  wages?  A.  In  some  cases  they  are  not  entitled  to  anything. 
iVe  have  had  girls  of  that  kind. 

j Q.  In  your  own  line  of  business,  I mean.  That  is  all  you  would  be 
'.sked  about.  A.  We  can  get  along  very  nicely  with  $5.00. 

^ Q.  With  a rising  scale?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Under  a rising  scale  the  lowest  would  be  $5.00?  A.  Yes. 

MR.  BLOCK,  Junior;  Gentlemen,  I don’t  want  you  to  feel  that 
nything  I have  said  has  been  in  the  way  of  criticism,  or  has  been 
nimical  to  your  objects.  If  this  is  going  to  accomplish  anything,  we 
re  just  as  heartily  in  favor  of  it  as  you  are. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  We  understand  that,  and  we  are  obliged  to 
j'ou.  We  want  to  co-operate  with  everybody.  We  need  all  the  co-opera- 
ion  we  can  secure. 

The  Committee  now  adjourn  to  1;30  o’clock  this  afternoon. 

Whereupon  the  Committee  adjourned. 


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SESSION  X 


L 

111 


An  actress  gives  testimony  concerning  accommodations  pro- 
' vided  for  women  of  her  profession  in  Illinois  theatres  and  wages 
paid  to  theatrical  women.  More  Peoria  employers  are  examined. 
Assistant  superintendent  of  Peoria  State  Hospital  says  his  experi- 
' ence  with  patients  reveals  a direct  connection  between  low  wages 
and  vice.  Two  women  proprietors  of  houses  of  ill-fame  state  their 
' conclusions  based  on-  experience  with  fallen  women  and  several 
women  of  the  underworld  tell  the  stories  of  their  surrender  to 
‘ temptation.  Testimony  of: 

Jeannette  Fullerton,  leading  lady  in  a theatrical  company; 

Mr.  Thomas  L.  Greer,  secretary,  Clark  & Company;  dry  goods; 

Mr.  P.  A.  Bergner  and  Mr.  Frank  H.  Bush,  P.  A.  Bergner  & 
• Company,  dry  goods; 

Mr.  Persons,  manager,  Larkin  & Company; 

Mr.  Frank  J.  Young,  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Company; 

Mr.  W.  J.  Roos,  manager,  Putnam’s  Store; 

I Mr.  H.  H.  Givins,  retail  merchant; 

Dr.  Eugene  Cohn,  assistant  superintendent,  Peoria  State  Hos- 
: pital; 

Henry  G.  Kuch,  tinware  manufacturer; 

. Georgia  Hall;  resort  proprietor; 


M C ; 

,-J  Bertha  Hartman; 

G— B ; 

L D . 

’’  Peoria,  111.,  Saturday,  March  15,  1913. 

Jefferson  Hotel. 

At  1 :30  o’cock  P.  M.  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  recon- 
vened, with  Chairman  O’Hara  presiding. 

Jeannette  Fullerton’s  Testimony. 

JEANNETTE  FULLERTON,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before 
the  Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined 
ind  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  may  state  your  name,  if  you  please?  A. 
Jeannette  Fullerton. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I am  an  actress, 
j Q.  What  company  are  you  with  now?  A.  I am  at  present  with 
Mr.  Sherman’s  stock  company  at  the  Lyceum  Theater. 

Q.  Do  you  mind  telling  the  Committee  how  much  you  are  paid  for 
your  services?  A.  Do  you  mean,  telling  you  vaguely,  or  directly? 

Q.  Well,  accurately.  A.  My  w’ages  are  $40.00. 

Q.  Do  you  sing?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  The  straight  dramatic  line  of  work. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  line  of  w’ork?  A.  Ten  years. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  you  get  when  you  started  in  that  work? 
A.  Tw'enty-five  dollars. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  work  in  any  other  line?  A.  Nothing  but  straight 
dramatic  work. 


309 


310 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  least  amount  on  which  you  could  live 
A.  In  my  line  of  work? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  The  lowest  amount  in  my  line  of  work  which  is  eve 
paid — well,  of  course,  there  are  cases  where  they  would  get  under  thi 
amount,  but  chorus  girls  get  $16.00,  and  sometimes  $20.00. 

Q.  Does  that  include  expenses?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  have  to  pay  their  own  board  and  expenses?  A.  Yes,  sir 
they  pay  their  own  board.  Railroad  fares  are  paid  when  traveling. 

Q.  How  do  the  wages  of  other  theatrical  performers  range?  A 
Well,  a person  reading  lines  very  seldom  gets  under  $25.00  a week,  anc 
it  goes  as  high  as  $300.00  or  $400.00.  Of  course,  one  has  to  have  a reputa 
tion  in  order  to  command  that  much  money.  .The  average  pay  in  tht 
theatrical  business,  which  is  the  best  paid  line  of  work  for  women  in  the 
world,  in  my  estimation,  runs  from  $35.00  to  $75.00  a week;  that  is  to  say 
the  normal,  average  salary.  Of  course,  some  performers  receive  ver\ 
large  amounts,  but  $35.00  to  $75.00  would  cover  the  average  in  the  dramatic 
line. 

Q.  You  have  visited  several  towns  in  Illinois,  have  you?  A.  Yes. 
sir;  I have  traveled  all  over  the  State,  or  nearly  so. 

Q.  You  are  familiar  with  many  theaters  in  Illinois  towns?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  theaters,  or  theatrical  places  in  this  State,  to  j'our 
knowledge,  where  they  have  one  common  dressing  room  for  both  men 
and  women,  or  where  men  and  women  have  to  dress  in  the  same  room? 
A.  I have  never  seen  such  a thing  in  my  life,  anywhere. 

Q.  In  all  of  the  theaters  that  you  have  seen,  the  dressing  room 
accommodations  have  been  what  you  term  satisfactory?  A.  O,  yes;  as 
far  as  modesty  is  concerned.  The  men  and  women  are  never  mixed,  in 
any  possible  way,  in  dressing.  The  dressing  rooms  are  adequate,  usually. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  In  what  sense  do  you  say  they  are  adequate? 
A.  The  dressing  rooms  in  the  theaters  here  have  running  water  in  them, 
and  large  good  mirrors.  I have  space  enough  in  my  dressing  room  to 
keep  two  large  trunks  there. 

O.  Are  you  the  star?  A.  I am  the  leading  woman.  The  rest  are 
about  the  same. 

Q.  How  about  the  dressing  room  accommodations  for  the  chorus 
girls?  A.  We  have  none  in  our  company,  what  you  could  correctly  call 
chorus  girls.  It  is  a dramatic  organization.  I will  say  this,  the  theater 
here  was  not  designed  or  built  to  accommodate  a large  company.  It  was 
intended  to  be  used  as  a vaudeville  theater.  Two  ladies  might  be  required 
to  dress  together,  using  one  room.  It  may  be  possible  that  there  are 
theaters  in  some  little  towns  where  there  are  no  dressing  rooms  provided, 
and  the  people  would  have  to  dress  in  the  hotel;  but  I have  never  been 
imposd  upon  in  regard  to  dressing  accommodations,  nor  have  I ever  been 
mixed  up  in  anything  of  that  kind,  where  I could  say  I had  seen  it  myself, 
or  knew  of  it  to  be  actually  true.  But  I can  safely  say  this:  I have  been 
in  the  theatrical  business  myself  ten  years,  and  my  people  are  theatrical 
people,  so  I think  I know  something  about  existing  conditions,  .^s  far 
as  any  theater  being  conducted  in  an  immoral  way,  it  is  absurd.  In  fact, 
we  are  forced  and  compelled  to  walk  a straighter  line,  possibly,  than  you 
would  dream  of.  We  are  told  at  the  outset  that  we  are  not  allowed  to 
meet  anybody  on  the  outside  unless  properly  introduced.  Ladies  and 
gentlemen  are  not  supposed  to  enter  tlie  rooms  of  each  other,  unless  there 
is  a crowd  there,  or  a chaperon  is  present,  or  the  door  is  kept  open.  .\11 
these  things  are  looked  into,  and  expected  to  be  observed.  A girl  entering 
this  business  receives  a better  wage  than  in  any  other  line.  Her  morals 
and  her  comfort  are  as  well  looked  after,  or  better,  than  they  are  in  a 
restaurant,  or  an  office,  or  factory. 

Q.  In  your  ten  years  of  experience  and  observation  of  women 
engaged  in  the  theatrical  business,  would  you  say  that  in  many  cases  girls 
go  on  the  stage  because  they  make  more  money  on  the  stage,  and  because 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


311 


ihey  are  not  able  to  make  what  they  would  consider  to  be  a fair  living 
• iVage  in  other  lines  of  industry  open  to  them?  A.  I think  there  are  two 
n easons  for  people  going  into  the  business.  One  reason  is  that  they  have 
r in  ambition,  and  they  wish  to  further  that  ambition,  and  they  follow  the 
york  for  art’s  sake.  There  are  really  three  reasons.  There  is  a certain 
ilass  of  women  who  drift  into  the  business  for  the  sake  of  what  you 
! night  call  the  notoriety  they  can  find  in  the  business.  However,  the 
i |iembers  of  that  class  very  seldom  get  above  the  rank  of  chorus  girls.  I 
1 night  add  that  we  resent  very  much  having  chorus  girls  called  actresses. 
3 There  is  as  much,  well,  let  us  say  class  distinction,  as  there  is  to  any  other 
j ine  of  business.  I do  not  think  they  drift  into  it  because  there  is  more 
T tioney  to  be  made.  It  is  not  a profession,  it  is  a vocation,  and  you  have 
It  io  be  gifted  to  be  paid  the  highest  wages. 

I ' Q.  The  company  that  you  are  with  does  not  employ  a chorus?  A. 
: ffo,  sir. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you  for  com- 
:i  pg  here  today. 

r ^r.  Thomas  L.  Greer’s  Testimony. 

1 I THOMAS  L.  GREER,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the 
j Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and 
I lestified  as  follows: 

' EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Thomas  L. 
Jreer. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Dry  goods.  I am  associated  in 
i usiness  with  Clark  & Company. 

Q.  Of  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  position  with  the  concern,  with  Clark  & Company? 
L I am  secretary  and  general  manager. 

Q.  It  is  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  what  state?  A.  An  Illinois  corporation. 

I Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  wages  that  are  being  paid  and  have 
ecently  been  paid  to  woman  workers  in  that  establishment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ  in  your  store  at  this  time?  A. 
linety-seven. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  weekly  wage  paid  to  any  woman  working  for 
. our  establishment?  A.  Four  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest?  A.  Fifty  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  the  average?  A.  Ten  dollars  and  eighteen  cents. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Greer,  I presume  you  have  a tabulation  of  wages  there? 
t.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  read  that  tabulation  into  the  record?  A.  The 

ist  is  as  follows:  Four  cash  cirls  at  $4.00;  one  apprentice  girl  at  $4.50 

that  is  the  dressmaking  department);  we  have  six  at  $5.00  (those  girls 
jre  in  the  office). 

5 Q.  Six  girls  at  $5.00?  A.  Yes.  Then  we  have  six  at  $6.00.  There 
're  thirteen  girls  who  receive  $7.00  a week;  and  the  others  are  paid  from 
!8,00  a week  upward. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  investigated  into  the  cost  of  living  for  these  girls? 
3.  Since  this  investigation  began  we  have,  to  some  extent. 

Q.  What  have  you  found  to  be  the  minimum  expense  of  a girl  living 
1 the  city  of  Peoria?  A.  Well,  there  are  two  phases  of  expenses,  two 
lasses  to  be  figured  upon. 

Q.  What  are  those?  A.  Well,  the  girl  who  is  living  at  home,  who 
as  relatives,  is  in  one  class. 

Q.  I am  asking  your  estimate  of  expense  for  the  girl  who  does  not 
ve  at  home.  A.  It  will  cost  her  from  $7.00  to  $8.00  a week,  I should 
[link. 

; Q.  The  large  employers  in  the  City  of  Chicago  said  that  in  their 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


opinion  $8.00  a week  was  the  lowest  amount  on  which  the  girls  could 
live  in  that  city.  Now,  you  think  that  in  Peoria  the  amount  would  be 
from  $7.00  to  $8.00?  A.  I think  so,  yes.  That  is  in  the  case  of  the  girls 
who  are  paying  board,  who  are  “boarding,”  as  we  say,  who  do  not  live  at 
home,  and  who  have  rented  rooms  of  some  kind. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : The  girls  who,  in  the  common  saying,  are 
adrift?  A.  Well,  I would  not  want  to  call  them  drifters,  exactly. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Your  firm  is  in  the  retail  dry  goods  busi- 
ness? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  there  were  a law,  here  in  Peoria,  which  required  that  girl 
clerks  in  stores  should  be  paid  a minimum  wage,  say  of  $12.00  a week,  it 
would  not  have  a harmful  effect  on  your  business,  if  it  were  general,  and 
applied  to  all  similar  stores  in  Peoria?  A.  Twelve  dollars,  you  say? 

Q.  Any  uniform  figure.  A.  W ell,  1 don’t  know. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  your  business  is  all  local  business,  with  no  out- 
side competition?  A.  \Vell,  that  may  be  true,  but  it  would  have  to  be 
taken  care  of,  and  figured  out.  Certainly  our  business  could  not  go  along 
on  the  same  basis  as  it  is  going  along  on  now. 

Q.  Could  Clark  & Company  afford  to  pay  girls  working  for  it  a 
minimum  of  $8.00  a week  and  still  make  money  and  not  increase  the  sell- 
ing price  of  any  of  the  articles?  A.  No,  it  could  not  be  done. 

Q.  It  could  not?  A.  You  mean  to  add  to  the  cost  without  increas- 

ing the  selling  price? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  It  could  not  be  done. 

Q.  Then  let  me  ask  what  the  net  profit  was,  as  made  by  Clark  & 

Company,  during  the  last  fiscal  year  of  the  business?  A.  That  I could 

not  answer.  You  would  have  to  get  that  from  Mr.  Smith,  the  office  man. 
I suppose  he  would  be  willing  to  give  it  to  3^ou. 

Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  profit  made,  in  a general  wa^'?  A.  1 
was;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  a general  wa^',  about  what  is  the  profit,  Mr.  Greer?  A.  I 
could  not  answer  that. 

Q.  You  have  consulted  other  people  about  answering  that  question? 
A.  WTen  I left  the  store,  is  all.  Air.  Smith  said  at  that  time  that  if  you 
would  call  him,  he  would  answer  that  question.  I don’t  know  whether  he 
has  consulted  anybody  or  not. 

Q.  Out  of  the  profits  made  last  j'ear.  would  it  be  possible  to  increase 
the  salary  of  every  girl  working  for  you  from  the  present  rate  of  payment 
to  the  sum  of  $8.00  a week,  and  still  leave  part  of  the  profits  untouched? 

A.  In  order  to  answer  that  I would  have  to  take  a pencil  and  figure  up. 

Q.  \Ve  can  do  that  figuring  for  you  if  j'ou  will  tell  us  the  profit. 

That  is  what  we  are  trying  to  learn  from  the  emploj-ers.  A.  Last  j-ear 

we  could  not.  This  year,  if  there  was  a minimum  wage  scale  of  $8.00  we 
would  certainly  set  our  figures  on  that  basis. 

0.  Last  year  you  could  not?  A.  Last  year  we  could  not,  because 
that  is  done  and  over  with.  Our  expense  was  over  the  average  last  year, 
and  our  profits  were  not  over. 

Q.  Do  3’ou  favor  a minimum  wage  for  women,  or  a law  of  that  sort, 
in  this  State?  A.  I would  sajL  yes.  It  would  stop  all  this  discussion. 

Q.  The  employer  would  fulfill  his  responsibilities  thereby?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  The  enactment  of  such  a law,  if  sanely  gone  into,  if  saneh'  enacted 
and  carried  out,  would  not  work  a hardship  on  \’Our  business?  A.  Yes,  it 
would. 

Q.  In  what  way  would  it.  Air.  Greer?  A.  I don’t  know  how  we 
would  get  competent  girls.  I don’t  know  how  we  would  be  helping  these 
girls  that  we  are  now  taking  in  and  letting  them  work  up.  Just  now  I 
could  not  see  how  we  could  handle  that  question.  AA'e  take  in  a cash 
girl,  at  $4.00  a week,  and  in  a few  months  she  is  fitted  for  a better  position 
if  she  is  any  good.  In  this  cash  girl  position  we  could  not  afford^  to  pay 
$8.00  for  that  work  under  the  present  condition  of  our  profits.  AVe  could 


j Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  313 

hot  pay  $8.00  a week  for  the  errand  girls,  unless  by  increasijig  the  per  cent 
of  our  profits  on  goods  sold. 

Q.  In  the  last  year  have  you  paid  any  woman  working  for  your 
|;ompany  less  than  $4.00  a week,  at  any  time?  A.  One  girl  was  paid  $3.50, 
that  came  in  and  helped  out  as  a relief,  on  this  cash  girl  force. 

. ' Q.  You  have  not  paid  any  girl,  except  the  one  girl  mentioned,  less 
ijivagcs?  A.  No,  sir. 

- j 0.  Not  under  $4.00?  A.  That  is  the  price  we  put  on  the  cash  girl 

' Aithout  any  question,  and  we  do  not  hire  any  cash  girls  unless  they  live 

■ [home.  The  sales  people  we  pay  in  regard  to  their  ability. 

I Q.  Before  answering  the  question  in  regard  to  profits,  you  desire  to 
Mconsult  with  other  members  of  your  firm?  A.  I prefer  that  you  would 

■ consult  with  Mr.  Smith  as  to  that. 

j Q.  We  will  waive  that  question  for  the  time  being;  and  when  you 

•>  are  excused,  you  will  be  excused  until  further  summoned  to  appear  before 

J the  Committee.  Senator  Beall,  have  you  any  further  questions  to  ask  this 
I ’witness  now? 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  No,  sir;  I have  nothing  in  particular  at  this 
I time. 

t!  SENATOR  TOSSEY : What  do  you  think  the  minimum  wages  of 
Ijthe  girls  should  be,  $7.00  or  $8.00,  you  say?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  were  figuring 
i on  that  basis.  We  are  paying  that  now. 

[ Q.  And  for  an  apprentice,  what  should  she  get?  If  the  General 
[Assembly  should  pass  a minimum  wage. bill,  there  should  be  an  apprentice 
scale  established,  should  there  not?  A.  That  could  be  raised  $1,  say.  It 
is  $4.00  now.  It  could  be  raised.  I suppose,  to  $5.00  a week. 

Q.  How  long  should  she  remain  an  apprentice,  in  your  opinion?  A. 
I don’t  suppose  a girl  could  work  less  than  six  months  before  we  would 
[want  to  put  her  behind  the  counter. 

; Q.  And  then  raise  her  to  $8.00?  A.  If  she  is  competent,  yes. 

: CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  We  are  much  obliged  to  you,  Mr.  Greer. 

Testimony  of  Mr.  P.  A.  Bergner  and  Frank  Bush. 

P.  A.  BERGNER  and  FRANK  BUSH  (testifying  together),  witnesses 
|{ summoned  to  appear  before  the  Commission,  being  first  duly  sworn  by 
i Senator  Beall,  were  interrogated,  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

J,  CHAIRMAN:  Please  state  your  name? 

MR.  BERGNER:  P.  A.  Bergner. 

Q.  And  your  name  (to  Mr.  Bush)?  A.  Frank  H.  Bush. 

THE  CHAIRMAN  (to  Mr.  Bergner):  You  gentlemen  are  partners 
' in  the  business  concern  of  P.  A.  Bergner  & Company?  A.  Yes,  sir;  P.  A. 
* Bergner  & Company. 

Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  It  is  a firm. 

Q.  What  is  your  position  with  the  firm? 

MR.  BERGNER:  President. 

Q.  What  is  your  position,  Mr.  Bush? 

MR.  BUSH:  Secretary. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  r^ou  employ? 

MR.  BERGNER:  Mr.  Bush  will  give  you  that  information  better 

I than  I can. 

MR.  BUSH:  We  have  124  girls. 

Q.  One  hundred  and  twenty-four  altogether?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  who  is  employed  by 
you?  A.  Four  dollars. 

’ Q.  How  many  girls  work  in  your  establishment  at  $4.00  a week? 

A.  We  have  about  fifteen  or  sixteen,  they  are  bundle  girls, 

i Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  class  of  girls  in  your  employ?  A.  The 


314 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


next  highest  is  $5.00.  We  have  two  at  that,  and  we  have  five  girls  at  $6.00. 
There  are  eleven  at  $7.50  a week.  I can  read  the  schedule  of  wages  and 
employes  if  you  wish. 

Q.  Do  so,  please.  A.  There  are  nineteen  who  receive  $8.25,  and 
seventeen  at  $10.00  a week.  Do  you  want  me  to  state  them,  on  up? 

Q.  How  many  get  above  $10.00?  What  is  the  total  number  above 
$10.00?  A.  I think  thirty-six. 

Q.  Have  you  conducted  an  investigation  into  the  living  expenses  of 
those  girls  who  are  working  for  your  concern?  A.  Why,  in  a measure, 
yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  find  is  the  least  amount  that  a girl  can  live  on,  in 
Peoria?  A.  About  $7.00  or  $8.00. 

Q.  Suppose  that  the  State  of  Illinois  were  to  enact  a law  giving  to 
every  girl,  whether  she  lives  at  home  or  not,  a living  wage,  would  that, 
being  a general  law,  applying  to  all  employers  of  a class  in  this  State, 
seriously  hurt  your  business?  A.  I don’t  see  how  it  would  take  care  of 
these  bundle  girls  and  the  inexperienced  people. 

Q.  How  would  you  take  care  of  the  bundle  girls — what  plan  can  j’ou 
suggest?  A.  Well,  by  classing  them  as  beginners. 

Q.  As  apprentices,  in  the  provisions  of  the  law  as  to  different  classes? 
A.  I don’t  see  any  other  way. 

Q.  How  long  should  that  period  of  their  apprenticeship  last?  A.  It 
would  depend  entirely  on  the  girl,  I would  say  as  to  the  time. 

Q.  Suppost  an  arbitrary  period  were  fixed  in  the  law?  A.  If  she 
wasn’t  any  good,  she  would  be  let  out  of  the  working  force. 

Q.  Well,  in  your  opinion,  from  your  experience,  would  six  months  be 
reasonable?  A.  In  from  six  to  nine  months  we  would  be  able  to  find  out 
what  she  would  be  likely  to  develop  into,  what  she  would  be  able  to  do. 

Q.  Mr.  Bergner,  do  you  think — not  as  an  employer,  now,  but  as  a 
man  who  has  studied  these  matters  and  is  interested  in  them — do  you 
think  that  the  question  of  low  wages  received  by  working  girls  has  any- 
thing to  do  with  the  question  of  immorality  among  women,  or  to  what 
extent  does  it  figure?  A.  Well,  practically,  as  a rule,  no. 

Q.  Are  there  exceptions  to  that  rule?  A.  There  are  exceptions  to 
all  rules. 

Q.  You  think,  then,  that  no  girl  will  go  to  ruination  because  she  is 
starving?  A.  Starving  is  a different  proposition.  I don’t  think  they  often 
fall  from  that,  from  our  observation  and  experience. 

Q.  You  think  that  if  a girl  is  good  she  will  remain  good,  in  spite  of 
all  temptations  that  may  be  presented  to  her?  A.  If  the  temptations 
were  not  there,  95  per  cent  of  the  girls  would  not  go  wrong,  I believe 
from  my  observation  and  from  what  investigation  I have  made  of  that 
subject. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  principal  cause  of  girls  going  wrong? 
A.  I believe  that  95  per  cent  of  all  fallen  women  are  the  victims  of  a 
man. 

Q.  In  what  sense  are  they  the  victim  of  a man — what  factors  enter 
into  it?  A.  Seeking  her,  pursuing  her  in  order  to  destroy  her  virtue,  to 
satisfy  his  animal  passion,  regardless  of  her  welfare  or  happiness. 

Q.  Yes,  we  all  admit  that,  and  yet  may  we  not  wonder  if  the  girl’s 
power  to  resist  temptation  is  not  weakened  from  receiving  small  wages, 
and  from  the  resulting  deprivations  of  her  life?  A.  All  I can  say  as  to 
that  proposition  is  that  our  experience  has  been  that  the  girls  who  are 
getting  better  pay,  comparatively,  are  the  ones  who  go  astraj’,  and  not  the 
cheaper  paid  girls. 

Q.  You  find  in  your  observation,  then,  that  the  girl  who  is  getting 
more  pay  is  more  apt  to  go  astray  than  the  poorly  paid  girl?  A.  She  is 
more  liable  to  temptation  if  she  receives  higher  pay,  because  then  she 
lives  in  a different  class,  on  a different  scale,  and  she  can  afford  to  dress 
better  and  go  around  more.  Do  not  misunderstand  me,  that  I use  this  as 
any  argument  against  good  wages,  or  that  because  of  this  tendency  I 
approve  of  low  wages.  On  the  contrary,  we  have  established  a precedent 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


315 


in  our  store,  years  ago,  that  a girl  who  is  dependent  upon  her  own  re- 
sources, entirely,  must  not  be  employed  at  less  money  than  $40.00  a month 
as  a minimum. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  this  matter,  Mr.  Bush?  A.  It  is  about 
the  same.  We  are  very  particular  about  our  help,  and  we  do  not  hire 
anything  except  competent  help,  except  little  bundle  girls,  and  we  advance 
them  as  they  advance  and  learn  how  to  do  the  work  of  the  store  and 
become  fitted  for  better  work,  better  paid  work. 

Q.  You,  too,  believe  that  the  proposition  of  the  low  wages  she  re- 
ceives has  very  little  to  do  with  a girl  going  wrong? 

MR.  BUSH:  Well,  that  has  been  our  experience.  I have  studied 
that  question  quite  a little,  on  account  of  employing  a number  of  girls,  and 
that  is  our  experience,  at  least. 

Q.  How  often  does  it  happen  that  you  have  to  discharge  girls  for 
stealing? 

MR.  BUSH:  Well,  let  me  see 

Q.  In  the  last  year,  say,  how  many  cases  have  you  had  of  pilfering 
or  thievery?  A.  I don’t  believe  that  we  have  had  three  cases — I don’t 
believe  we  have  had  two 

MR.  BERGNER:  I don’t  know  of  one  in  the  last  year. 

MR.  Bush:  No. 

MR.  BERGNER:  It  occurs,  as  a matter  of  fact,  so  very  seldom,  that 
I don’t  remember  enough  about  any  such  case  to  be  specific.  I know  of 
only  one  or  two  instances,  in  fact,  where  we  discharged  anybody  for 
thieving. 

Q.  In  those  one  or  two  specific  instances  that  you  remember,  did  the 
girl  steal  because  she  was  getting  a small  salary?  A.  No,  sir.  In  one 
case  the  girl  was  getting  $40.00  a month. 

Q.  Her  salary  at  the  time  was  $40.00  a month,  you  say?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Bergner  is  the  president  of  this  corporation,  is  he  not? 

MR.  BUSH:  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state  to  the  Committee,  please,  what  the  profits  of  your 
corporation  were  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  I do  not  care  to  answer 
that  question  except  on  the  advice  of  my  attorney. 

Q.  You  refuse  to  answer  the  question?  A.  Except  on  his  advice.  I 
think  it  is  an  unfair  question  to  ask. 

Q.  You  understand  that  in  refusing  to  answer  that  question  you  may 
lay  yourselves  liable  to  contempt?  A.  That  is  the  reason  why  I would 
want  to  have  the  advice  of  our  attorney. 

Q.  On  that  point,  Mr.  Bergner,  let  me  say  in  behalf  of  this  Com- 
mittee that  we  are  satisfied  that  we  have  the  power  to  compel  you  to 
answer  that  question;  but  so  far  we  are  trying  to  go  along  in  a spirit  of 
harmony  and  co-operation  with  the  employers,  co-operating  both  with  the 
employers  and  the  employed,  to  try  to  get  at  a sane  solution  of  this 
matter,  one  that  will  be  satisfactory  to  you  and  to  all  of  the  people 
working  for  you.  A.  That  is  very  satisfactory  to  us. 

Q.  And  we  are  asking  that  question  in  every  case  and  putting  the 
answer  on  record.  A.  Could  I ask  you  a question  or  two  on  that  basis, 
about  that  profit  proposition? 

Q.  I would  be  very  glad  to  answer  any  questions  you  wish  to  ask. 
A.  Do  you  want  me  to  give  you  an  example  of  the  way  it  works  out? 

Q.  Yes,  if  you  wish  to.  A.  Here  is  a corporation,  say,  that  is 
incorporated  for  $100,000,  and  here  is  another  for  $100,000,  and  here  is  a 
third_  one  for  $100,000.  The  first  man,  with  fair  ability,  turns  his  capital 
six  times,  the  man  with  less  ability  turns  it  four  times,  and  the  man  with 
the  least  ability  of  the  three  turns  his  capital  only  three  times  in  the  year. 
The  lowest  man  sells  goods  to  the  amount  of  $300,000.  Now,  we  will 
concede  that  a man  who  has  his  capital  risked  is  entitled  to  a fair  profit, 
and  to  a compensation  on  his  labor,  not  alone  a profit  on  his  capital. 
The  man  is  entitled  to  compensation  for  his  labor  and  to  profit  on  his 
capital,  and  we  will  say  he  is  entitled  to  5 per  cent  on  his  sales.  However, 


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it  does  not  work  out  uniformly,  any  more  than  the  wages  of  girls.  One 
man  makes  $30,000,  the  second  man  makes  $24,000,  and  the  lowest  man 
makes  $18,000  on  the  same  capital,  in  the  same  length  of  time.  Now,  if  one 
man’  makes  $18,000  and  another  makes  $30,000,  how  are  3-ou  going  to 
arrive  at  a solution  of  what  is  the  proper  answer.  It  is  ability  that  makes 
the  money  here,  and  not  the  capital,  beyond  a certain  point.  The  man 
who  turns  his  capital  six  times  absolutely  can  sell  for  less  than  the  man 
who  turns  his  capital  three  times,  because  he  has  more  losses  to  take 
care  of  on  undesirable  merchandise.  If  I should  be  the  poorest  man,  the 
smallest  money-maker  of  the  three,  and  another  man  should  be  the  big 
man,  would  it  seem  just  to  the  big  man,  when  he  makes  $30,000  and  the 
other  makes  $18,000,  to  base  3'our  law  on  that  basis? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  seeking  to  find  out  whether  the 
employe  gets  his  share  of  the  profits,  his  just  share  of  the  profits.  You 
believe  that  the  employed  deserve  as  much  consideration  from  the  State 
of  Illinois  as  the  employer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  reason  we  want  to  get  an  answer  to  that  question  is 
because  we  want  to  know  if  the  emplo3'er  is  playing  fair  with  the  emplo3'e. 
A.  But  the  man  who  makes  the  turn  of  his  capital,  in  goods  sold,  six 
times  a year — should  he  pay  his  emplo3es  more  than  the  man  who  onh- 
turns  his  stock  three  times? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  are  not  passing  upon  that.  We  want  the 
profit  as  a basis  upon  which  to  reach  a decision. 

MR.  BERGNER:  Well,  you  must  take  the  two  sides  to  the  proposi- 
tion. Every  business  should  carry  its  own  business,  and  competition 
regulates  everything  in  this  business.  If  3'ou  establish  a minimum  wage 
of  $8.00  or  $10.00  a week,  and  make  it  universal,  I don't  think  that  an3- 
fair-minded  merchant  would  object,  but  I will  tell  3-011  what  the  result  of 
that  might  be  in  actual  practice.  In  1113-  estimation,  and  from  1113-  experi- 
ence, if  you  make  the  minimum  wage  too  high,  it  will  operate  to  destr03’ 
efficienc3^  There  will  be  no  incentive  for  a girl  to  become  proficient,  be- 
cause she  knows  the  emplo3'er  is  obliged  to  pa3-  her  $8.00  or  $10.00,  any- 
wa3L  She  says,  “What’s  the  dif?”  Experience  teaches  us  that.  If  there 
is  no  incentive  for  me  to  conduct  my  business  probabN'  better  than  the 
other  man  could  conduct  it,  if  there  is  not  some  return  for  it,  I would  not 
make  that  effort,  would  I?  Neither  will  3-our  minimum  wage  bring  out 
efficiency  if  you  make  it  too  high.  Another  thing  is,  what  are  3-ou  going 
to  do  with  this  inexperienced  and  incompetent  help  that  we  now  do  con- 
tend with  in  order  to  make  them  into  better  material?  You  ma3-  think 
that  it  is  a cold-blooded  proposition,  but  I tell  3-011  it  is  onU-  too  true  that 
we  have  man3^  emplo3-es  that  we  would  like  to  discharge,  but  we  do  not 
because  we  feel  the3^  are  entitled  to  a wage,  and  we  keep  them  on  in  the 
hope  of  making  them  proficient.  Now.  if  we  are  compelled  to  pa3-  an 
$8.00  or  $10.00  minimum  wage,  we  will  certainh-  go  into  the  market  and 
tr3'  to  get  the  best  we  can  with  that,  and  not  tr3-  to  educate  incompetent 
or  inexperienced  girls  at  all.  It  costs  mone3-  to  teach  them.  The  merchant 
will  not  suffer.  No  matter  what  3^00  make  3-our  minimum  wage,  the  public 
will  pa3^  for  it,  rest  assured  of  that;  but  if  the  object  is  to  connect  the 
social  evil  with  small  wages,  3-011  are  on  the  wrong  track. 

Q.  In  y-our  judgment?  A.  From  my  observation  and  experience. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  We  have  had  witness  after  witness  come  on 
the  stand,  social  workers,  and  girls  from  all  over  the  countr3-,  and  persons 
well  acquainted  with  that  question;  and  the3'  have  sworn  to  this  Com- 
mittee that  that  did  have  something  to  do  with  it.  A.  There  is  no  ques- 
tion but  what  it  may  have  something  to  do  with  it.  I do  not  dispute 
that;  but  out  of  the  many  investigated  it  may-  be  but  a very  small  per- 
centage of  the  whole.  If  y'ou  go  to  work  and  investigate  a concern  that 
employ-s  5,000  women,  and  find  50  that  have  fallen  through  low  wages,  it 
is  only  1 per  cent  of  the  whole. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  It  shows  one  of  the  predispo.sing  factors,  one 
of  the  environments,  however. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I think  this  gentleman  is  right  as  far  as  he 
goes.  I understand  that;  but  in  our  investigation  in  Chicago — of  course,  it 
is  a larger  city-  than  this — we  had  girls  who  went  on  the  witness  stand. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


317 


I'licy  said  they  went  to  work,  to  a certain  place,  for  instance,  for  $3.00  or 
$4.00  a week.  They  saw  other  people  wearing  good  clothes,  and  they 
wanted  to  put  on  a little  style,  and  they  had  no  money,  so  they  went  that 
way.  Why?  A.  Why  are  girls  in  that  condition? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  They  see  other  girls  with  good  clothes,  and 
they  want  them,  too.  In  the  stores  they  handle  nice  articles,  they  have  the 
opportunity  to  see  them,  and  they  feel  the  entire  lack  of  good  clothes.  In 
one  instance,  a girl  in  Chicago  was  getting  $4.00  a week.  She  paid  $3.75 
for  board,  took  her  lunch  wdth  her,  and  paid  10  and  15  cents  for  suppers,  and 
5 cents  for  carfare.  She  was  waiting  on  finely  dressed  ladies  and  heard 
them  talk  about  how  they  got  their  money.  She  said  to  herself  “I  am 
good  looking  and  young,  and  1 will  try  that,  too.”  She  had  heard  a 
woman  say  she  could  make  $50.00  a week,  and  she  felt  that  enough  money 
to  live  on  would  settle  all  her  troubles.  We  are  trying  to  get  at  a remedy. 
We  do  not  blame  anybody.  The  testimony  up  to  this  time  has  led  up  to 
the  proposition  that  they  were  forced  to  do  it,  or  w'anted  to  do  it,  because 
they  found  they  could  not  live  on  $4.50  a week,  which  they  certainly  could 
not  do  in  Chicago. 

MR.  BERGNER:  If  your  Committee  had  gone  to  the  homes  and 
seen  what  the  environments  were  in  many  cases,  it  would  change  your 
.-views. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  just  starting  out;  we  are  just  learning. 

MR.  BERGNER:  That  is  the  place  to  find  out.  Many  a man  drinks, 
and  the  girl  that  only  makes  $4.00  is  obliged  to  hand  over  every  penny 
because  the  man  spends  nearly  all  he  makes  for  liquor.  We  do  not  employ 
anybody  in  our  store,  who  is  dependent  on  her  own  wages  to  live,  under 
$40.00  a month.  That  has  been  the  rule  for  many  years. 

Q.  I asked  you  what  was  the  lowest  amount  a girl  in  Peoria  could  live 
upon?  A.  That  I do  not  know,  because  I haven’t  had  any  experience  in 
that  line,  except  my  own.  I lived  on  $20.00  a month  when  I started  to 
work. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  have  in  your  employ  a girl  who  is  getting  less 
money  than  she  can  buy  her  food  for,  pay  for  her  room,  and  purchase  her 
clothing?  A.  No  doubt  we  have.  Anyone  who  is  getting  $4.00  a week 
cannot  depend  wholly  on  herself. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  think  it  is  perfectly  proper  to  put  the 
deficiency,  the  burden  of  her  support,  on  the  home,  rather  than  on  your 
institution  to  which  she  is  giving  up  her  time  all  day?  A.  I say,  no — if 
you  will  allow  me  to  qualify  it.  A man  has  a family  of  children,  and  he 
has  two  girls,  from  fifteen  to  eighteen.  I think  we  do  not  employ  any 
under  sixteen. 

MR.  BUSH:  Not  under  sixteen. 

MR.  BERGNER:  That  family  have  a hard  time  to  get  along.  The 
girls  are  probably  incompetent  to  go  into  housework,  but  in  some  store 
they  can  earn  $4.00  or  $5.00  a week.  The  man  has  a meager  income  of 
$50.00  to  $60.00,  say  $60.00  a month.  You  have  added  by  each  girl,  $20.00 
or  $25.00  a month  to  the  income,  and  if  you  raised  the  income  from  $60.00 
to  $105.00,  with  the  same  number  to  provide  for,  would  it  not  help  the 
family  considerably?  The  fact  is,  the  girl  you  take  into  your  business  to 
learn  the  work  does  not  begin  to  pay  for  herself.  She  is  a burden  on  the 
business,  and  has  to  be  carried  by  the  business  until  competent. 

Q.  How  long  a period?  A.  Some  of  them  for  a year  and  some  for 
three  months.  We  had  a girl  a year  ago  who  started  at  $3.00.  We  did 
not  want  her.  Her  father  was  a pastor  and  needed  the  money  as  a help 
to  the  family  income.  I was  finally  prevailed  upon  to  take  her  in  at  $3.00. 
In  two  weeks’  time  she  was  raised  to  $4.00,  and  in  six  weeks  to  $5.00. 
When  she  left  us  she  had  been  there  a year,  and  she  was  getting  $8.00. 
We  would  gladly  have  paid  her  $10.00,  if  she  had  not  moved  away  from 
Peoria.  Even  that  small  amount  she  earned  as  a beginner  was  some  help 
to  the  pastor.  He  probably  would  not  want  his  girl  to  go  out  as  a 
domestic  servant,  but  she  could  do  our  work. 

Q.  Then  it  is  all  a matter  of  ability?  A.  Certainly.  We  are  always 
short  of  good,  competent  people. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  The  girl  who  will  make  money  for  you,  you  are  willing  to  shove 
along?  A.  Tes,  we  have  to,  the  competition  compels  us. 

y.  ihe  other  girl,  the  girl  you  pay  less  than  a living  wage,  do  you 
make  any  profit  on  her?  A.  No,  sir;  we  make  no  profit  on  the  cheaper 
labor. 

Q.  You  feel  no  moral  responsibility  for  the  girl  in  your  employ  to 
whom  you  pay  less  than  a living  wage?  A.  To  a certain  extent  we  have 
a moral  responsibility,  but  let  me  tell  you  something.  We  cannot  be 
responsible  lor  people  who  are  brought  into  the  world  incompetent.  Now, 
if  you  establish  a minimum  wage,  and  we  do  not  accept  that  class  of  girls 
at  all,  who  is  going  to  be  responsible  for  them  after  that? 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  do  you  consider  a minimum  wage  ought 
to  be?  A.  It  is  immaterial  to  me  what  the  minimum  wage  should  be, 
because  if  it  is  made  unfair,  there  could  be  no  complaint,  because  competi- 
tion would  regulate  that,  you  know.  If  you  make  the  minimum  wage 
$8.00  or  $10.00,  are  you  not  doing  an  injustice  to  those  w'ho  cannot  earn 
it?  You  are  investigating  it,  and  that  phase,  also,  is  up  to  you. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  We  need  all  the  reliable  information  we  can 
get.  We  appreciate  that. 

MR.  BUSH;  What  are  you  going  to  do  with  those  girls  who  cannot 
earn  $8.00'  or  $10.00,  who  are  not  worth  that  much  to  any  employer? 
What  is  going  to  become  of  them,  and  of  the  father  whose  family  needs 
the  $20.00  a month  that  such  a girl  brings  in? 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  All  those  things  are  matters  we  are  trying  to 
solve.  If  the  girl  is  barred  from  working  for  $5.00  a week,  what  would 
be  the  next  wage?  A.  There  is  an  arbitrary  minimum  of  ^.00,  and  she 
can  never  reach  the  point  where  she  is  worth  it,  and  she  will  be  unem- 
ployed and  worse  off. 

Q.  They  could  be  graded  in  classes.  That  is  what  1 want  to  ask 
you.  What  should  that  grade  be,  for  an  apprentice  class,  starting  in  to 
learn  the  work?  A.  Sometimes  in  three  weeks  a girl  would  show  she 
was  improving  and  worth  more.  I cited  one  girl  who  began  at  $5.00  and 
became  worth  $10.00  in  less  than  a year. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  They  could  commence  at  $5.00  and  advance 
in  grades  and  classes  to  $10.00?  You  would  have  to  provide  some  uniform 
system  under  the  law,  no  doubt. 

MR.  BUSH;  You  would  have  to  take  care  of  the  apprentices  in  some 
way. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  I realize  that. 

MR.  BUSH;  In  some  aspects  the  minimum  wage  could  be  handled 
very  nicely. 

MR.  BERGNER;  The  merchants  are  interested  to  see  that  justice  is 
done  all  around,  but  the  public  declaims  every  day  about  the  high  cost 
of  living,  and  under  this  proposition  it  would  go  still  higher  and 
noticeably  so. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  I want  to  have  justice  done  all  around,  and 
we  infer  that  you  do. 

MR.  BUSH;  Certainly. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  Apprentices  could  start  at  $5.00  a week  and 
gradually  advance? 

MR.  BUSH;  According  to  ability. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  You  cannot  make  it,  according  to  abilit}'.  You 
have  to  consider  the  cost  of  living,  too. 

MR.  BUSH;  Ability  would  be  the  basis  in  the  commercial  world. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  As  to  being  advanced,  you  would  consider 
they  would  be  advancing  rapidly  enough  at  $1.00  a month  until  they  got 
$8.00?  A.  Possibly. 

MR.  BERGNER;  Relative  to  this  profit  proposition,  may  I ask  a 
question? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Certainly. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


319 


MR.  BERGNER:  I read  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Rosenwald,  of  Sears, 
oebuck. 


n 

* 


SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Yes,  sir. 

MR.  BERGNER:  I figured  that  made  10  per  cent  on  the  amount 
f goods  they  sold.  When  you  compute  the  profits  on  that,  do  you 
bmpute  what  they  are  incorporated  for,  or  the  actual  amount  of  money 
at  is  invested? 

j SENATOR  TOSSEY : The  actual  money  invested,  of  course,  but^ 
ie  are  not  doing  the  figuring. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  simply  asking  for  figures.  We  are 
■ejudging  nothing. 

MR.  BERGNER:  They  were  incorporated  for  $50,000,000.  That 
ould  show  a profit  of  about  11  per  cent  on  their  so-called  investment. 

; SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Yes. 

MR.  BERGNER:  I would  bet  my  hat  to  a doughnut  that  their  actual 
vestment  is  not  $20,000,000. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  investment? 

MR.  BERGNER:  Capitalized  $100,000. 

Q.  What  is  your  investment?  A.  Last  year  about  $73,000  surplus. 

Q.  What  per  cent  did  you  make  on  your  money  invested  last  year? 
C That  I will  not  answer. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Well,  now,  could  you  have  paid  $8.00  a week 
) all  your  female  employes  without  materially  affecting  your  profits?  A. 
have  not  figured  how  much  that  would  be.  1 could  not  say.  I would 
ive  to  figure  that.  We  never  know  how  much  money  we  are  to  make 
itil  we  get  working  on  the  stock  books.  Sometimes  we  are  surprised  at 
.e  actual  results  that  are  then  revealed. 


b I SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  know  what  you  have  done  last  year. 
i low  much  would  it  affect  your  profits?  A.  It  would  not  have  affected 
' iem  to  that  extent  we  would  have  gone  bankrupt,  I suppose,  if  we  had 
I!  fid  more. 

! i CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  gentlemen  are  excused,  subject  to 

ill^rther  call. 

Persons’  Testimony  Resumed. 

r MR.  PERSONS,  a witness  previously  appearing  before  this  Com., 
■jittee,  having  previously  been  sworn,  was  recalled  for  further  interroga- 
bn,  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  (to  Reporter):  What  was  the  question  asked 
P.  Persons  this  morning?  (Consultation.)  O,  yes!  How  many  women 
) you  employ,  Mr.  Persons,  at  this  time?  A.  We  have  300. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  woman  in  your  employ? 
1.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  What  was  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  woman  in  your  employ 
iring  the  last  year?  A.  Five  dollars. 

'!  Q.  What  is  the  youngest  age  of  any  girl  or  woman  so  employed? 
I.  We  employ  no  one  under  sixteen. 

! Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  employed  at  $5.00  a week?  A. 

It  the  present  time  we  have  eighty-five.  About  fifty  of  those  have  been 
;re  since  the  first  of  the  year  and  are  in  training.  They  are  not  con- 
^red  trained. 

Q.  How  many  get  $5.50?  A.  Six. 

Q.  How  many  get  $6.00?  A.  Eighty-eight. 

Q.  How  many  at  $6.50?  A.  Twenty-seven. 

Q.  How  many  at  $7.00?  A.  Thirty-one. 

Q.  How  many  at  $7.50?  A.  Eight. 

Q.  How  many  at  $8.00?  A.  Twenty-two. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  is  the  total  number  of  girls  employed  and  receiving  more 
than  $8.00?  A.  Forty. 

Q.  Forty  girls  receive  more  than  $8.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  those  girls  engaged  in,  at  what  kind  of  work,  for  the 
most  part?  A.  With  the  exception  of  eighty-eight,  they  are  in  the  office. 

Q.  All  except  eighty-eight  are  in  the  office?  A.  Yes. 

. Q-  What  is  their  work  in  the  office,  stating  it  in  a general  waj'?  A. 
Handling  of  orders,  shipping  of  orders;  it  is  a mail  order  house. 

Q.  Now,  have  you  any  girls  or  women  in  your  employ  who  are  not 
being  paid  a weekly  wage,  a specified  weekly  wage?  A.  No. 

Q.  In  other  words,  have  you  the  piece-work  system  in  vogue?  A. 
They  are  paid  by  a regular  wage  in  the  office,  but  the  wage  depends,  in 
some  departments,  on  the  amount  of  work  they  can  do.  For  instance, 
to  show  you  the  variance,  we  have  girls  that  earn  $14,  and  girls  that  earn 
$6  a week,  on  the  same  job. 

Q.  Then  you  have  some  girls  whose  income  is  regulated  entirely  on 
what  might  be  called  the  piece-work  system?  A.  Not  entirely.  It  is 
based  upon  it  to  some  extent,  of  course. 

Q.  Just  based  upon  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Under  that  system,  could  a girl  work  six  days  a week,  and  work 
hard,  and  make  two  dollars  for  her  week’s  work?  A.  No,  sir.  Our  mini- 
mum here  is  $5.  She  probably  would  get  $7. 

Q.  Whether  a girl  does  enough  work  to  reach  the  $5  or  not,  she 
gets  $5?  A.  $5,  yes. 

Q.  Every  girl  in  your  employ  is  entitled  to  at  least  $5,  no  matter  what 
she  has  done?  A.  No  girl  draws  less  than  $5  a week  for  47^2  hours’  work. 

Q.  And  no  girl  has  ever,  during  the  last  year,  received  less  than  $5? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  do  those  girls  come  to  work,  who  are  on  the  piece 
system?  A.  They  are  not  on  the  piece  system. 

Q.  What  hours  do  they  work?  A.  They  work  8l4  hours,  5 days  of 
the  week,  and  5 hours  on  Saturday,  making  MYz  hours  a week. 

Q.  How  much  time  do  they  have  allowed  for  lunch?  A.  One  hour. 

Q.  Most  of  them  use  the  street  cars?  A.  I should  sa3'  perhaps  half, 
perhaps  not  that  many  use  the  cars. 

Q.  Do  most  of  them  live  at  home?  A.  Yes,  most  of  them.  We  hire 
very  few  who  do  not  live  at  home. 

Q.  You  do  hire  some,  however,  who  do  not  live  at  home?  A.  I do 
not  suppose  we  have  a dozen  in  our  employ  who  do  not  live  home. 

Q.  What  system  have  you,  to  ascertain  whether  a girl  lives  at  home 
or  not?  A.  We  ask  her.  We  get  her  address,  find  out  how  long  she 
has  lived  in  Peoria,  and  how  manj'  brothers  and  sisters  she  has,  etc. 

O.  You  have  a thorough  system  of  investigation  of  the  applicants' 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  emploj^  an  investigator,  to  look  into  the  applications  of 
girls?  A.  One  of  the  questions  we  ask — we  have  a blank  to  be  filled 
out.  I wish  I had  brought  one  with  me.  On  this  blank  they  give  a sort 
of  personal  history  of  themselves,  and  state  their  education,  and  if  they 
are  acquainted  with  any  of  the  emploj'es.  W e then  get  all  the  information 
we  can  from  the  people  they  know. 

Q.  Is  Larkin  & Company  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Under  the  laws  of  Illinois?  A.  The  Larkin  Company  is  incor- 
porated under  the  laws  of  West  Virginia. 

Q.  W'hat  were  the  profits  of  this  corporation  during  the  last  fiscal 
year?  A.  That  I do  not  know. 

Q.  You  are  not  familiar  with  them?  A.  No,  sir.  Lou  understand 
this  is  a branch  of  the  Buffalo  house.  The  home  office  of  the  companj'  is 
in  Buffalo,  N.  Y. 

Q.  The  home  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


321 


\ Q.  How  often  do  you  report  to  the  home  office?  A.  In  what  way? 
{ j Q.  Do  you  make  monthly  reports,  or  weekly  reports,  to  the  main 
5".  fifice?  A.  Daily  reports. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  instructed  as  to  the  wages  to  be  paid  for 
it  lertain  work?  A.  We  try  to  maintain  the  standard  in  each  city.  For 
■f  istance,  girls  that  have  become  adept,  most  of  them  earn  seven  and  eight 
1 jollars  a week.  Some  classes  of  correspondents  will  run  from  $10  to  $15 
i j week. 


Q.  You  send  your  payroll  to  Buffalo?  A.  The  payroll? 

Q.  I infer  you  had  a system  of  sending  a duplicate  copy  of  your  pay- 
loll  daily,  weekly  or  monthly,  to  the  headquarters?  A.  Our  payroll  is 
lade  out  here  and  is  paid  here,  and  the  receipts  and  disbursements  are 
eported  to  Buffalo  daily. 

i Q.  Have  they  at  Buffalo  a list  of  all  the  women  employed  here  in 
’eoria?  A.  They  have  a list  in  Buffalo  of  all  the  women  and  men  em- 
loyed  here,  or  anywhere. 

Q.  With  the  salaries  paid  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  never  received  a general  order  from  Buffalo  or  any 
ither  headquarters  or  general  office  of  this  corporation,  regarding  the 
^rages  you  were  to  pay  to  women  and  girls?  A.  To  girls,  the  minimum 
lere  in  Peoria  is  six  dollars. 


Q.  Have  you  ever  received  any  orders  from  Buffalo  concerning  the 
layment  of  wages?  A.  Just  regarding  the  six  dollars. 

Q.  That  otder  came  from  Buffalo?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Senator  Beall,  have  you  any  questions  to 


SENATOR  BEALL:  No. 


(Witness  excused.) 


Mir.  Frank  J.  Young’s  Furthier  Testimony. 

THE  WITNESS  YOUNG,  previously  summoned  and  appearing  be- 
bre  the  Committee,  having  been  sworn,  was  now  recalled,  for  further 
nterrogation,  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Are  you  prepared  to  answer  that  question 
low?  A.  No,  sir,  I am  not.  That  is  something  you  will  have  to  take 
|ip  with  the  secretary  of  the  company  at  number  280  Broadway,  New 
iTork  City. 

Q.  Who  is  the  secretary?  A.  Mr.  H.  T.  Parsons. 

Q.  I withdraw  the  question.  As  I understand  it,  you  are  in  charge 
if  the  branch  store  or  office  here  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I think  it  would  be  unjust  to  ask  this  gentleman  to  divulge  the 
irofits.  Now,  just  a moment  more,  Mr.  Young.  You  testified  this  morn- 
ing, did  you  not,  concerning  the  wages  paid  to  girls,  etc? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  He  testified  as  to  everything  except  profits. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  lowest  wages  paid  were  $4?  A.  Four 
lollars,  yes,  sir. 

(Witness  excused.) 


Mr.  H.  H.  Givins’  Testimony. 

H.  H.  GIVINS,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  this  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and  testified  as 
follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  H.  H.  Givins. 

Q.  Your  business?  A.  Ladies’  ready-to-wear. 

_ Q.  What  company  are  you  with?  A.  Givins  Cloak  House,  an  in- 
dividual concern. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection?  A.  Proprietor. 

Q.  Sole  owner?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


322 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ?  A.  Ten. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  salary  paid  to  any  woman  in  your  employ 
A.  Six  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  paid  any  woman?  A.  That  is  a hard  ques 
tion.  I am  open  for  two  extra  good  women  now.  I have  paid  $35  uj 
to  about  ten  months  ago. 

Q.  How  many  women  are  employed  in  your  place  at  six  dollars 
A.  Two. 

Q.  What  do  they  do?  A.  They  are  learning  the  business,  as  ai 
apprentice  you  might  say. 

Q.  Some  of  the  merchants  who  appeared  before  this  commissioi 
today  have  testified  that  they  paid  less  than  six  dollars  to  a beginner 
Have  you  found  it  good  business  policy  to  pay  six  dollars  to  employes  o 
that  kind?  A.  Yes,  sir,  because  1 turn  most  of  them  down  that  get  les; 
than  that. 

Q.  You  pay  them  six  dollars,  but  you  exercise  careful  judgment  ir 
selecting  them?  A.  Y'es,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think,  Mr.  Givin,  is  the  least  amount  of  monej 
per  week  that  a girl  or  woman  can  support  herself  on,  here  in  the  cit) 
of  Peoria?  A.  That  is  a pretty  hard  problem  to  answer,  but  I imagine 
that  if  she  is  dependent  upon  herself,  absolutely,  about  six  to  seven  dollar; 
— in  that  vicinity,  about. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  low  wages  has  anything  at  all  to  do  with 
the  question  of  immorality  among  girls  and  women?  A.  To  a certair 
extent. 

Q.  What  is  your  theory  along  that  line,  your  idea,  Mr.  Givin?  A 
I have  not  formed  much  of  an  opinion  about  it,  except  that  some  women 
are  inclined  to  be  wayward.  The  amount  of  salary  would  not  make 
much  difference  in  their  cases.  I think  low  wages  would  have  some  effect 
in  some  cases.  Some  have  an  inclination  to  want  fine  clothes,  just  the 
same  as  I have  to  want  a ten  thousand  dollar  automobile,  although  1 
know  that  I can’t  have  it  and  I don’t  take  advantage  of  it. 

Q.  If  you  were  a member  of  this  Committee,  and  charged  with  the 
duty  of  investigating  the  causes  of  vice  among  women,  would  you  look 
into  the  matter  of  low  wages,  as  one  of  the  contributing  causes  of  vice, 
or  immorality?  A.  Y'es,  together  with  other  causes. 

Mr.  W.  J.  Rods’  Testimony. 

W.  J.  ROOS,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Committee. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  W.  J.  Roos. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  klanager  of  the  ^V.  D.  Putnam  five 
and  ten  cent  store,  here. 

Q.  As  such,  you  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  to  girls  and  women 
that  are  employed  by  W.  D.  Putnam’s  store?  A.  \ es.  I hire  them; 
advance  them,  and  when  necessary,  discharge  them. 

Q.  First,  how  many  women  are  emplo3'ed  there  in  that  store?  A.  27. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  anj^  girl  or  woman,  in  that 
store?  A.  $4. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  woman  or  girl  emplo3-ed  in 
that  store  during  the  last  3'ear?  A.  Four  dollars. 

Q.  There  is  not  now  in  3'our  emplo3%  nor  has  there  been  a single  girl, 
during  the  last  year,  who  received  a salar3'  as  low  as  three  dollars  a week.' 
A..  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  knowledge,  I infer,  would  be  conclusive  on  that  subject? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  girls  employed  there  are  getting  $4  a week: 
A.  14. 

Q.  How  man3'  are  getting  $4.50?  A.  Two. 

Q.  How  many  are  getting  $5?  A.  Five. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


323 


,|!  Q.  How  many  are  getting  $5.50?  A.  We  have  none  at  $5.50. 

■ I Q.  What  is  the  next  figure?  A.  $6  is  the  next. 

‘ j Q.  How  many  at  $6?  A.  Two. 

j Q.  How  many  at  $6.50?  A.  None, 
ij  Q.  How  many  at  $7?  A.  Two. 

0 Q.  Do  any  of  them  receive  $8?  A.  Yes,  one. 

![  Q.  Are  there  any  who  are  paid  more  than  eight  dollars  a week? 
JL  Yes,  one. 

: [ Q.  How  much  does  she  reeeive?  A.  Thirteen  dollars. 

1 Q.  Out  of  27  girls  employed,  more  than  half,  14,  are  getting  $4,  the 
ittinimum  wage  paid  by  you,  is  that  the  fact?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

it  Q.  How  old  are  those  girls  who  are  getting  four  dollars  a week? 
||.  16  and  17. 

I Q.  Do  most  of  them  live  at  home?  A.  All  of  them  live  at  home, 
y^e  know  their  parents. 

Q.  The  parents  of  none  of  those  girls  is  wealthy,  would  you  say?  A. 
fo,  sir. 

i Q.  The  girls  work  because  they  have  to  work,  they  need  the  money? 

. L Yes,  sir,  usually  the  mothers  of  the  girls  bring  them  right  in,  and  the 

lothers  and  fathers  are  in  moderate  circumstances.  I know  that  to  be  true, 
ecause  I know  the  people. 

Q.  Can  girls  support  themselves  on  a salary  of  four  dollars  a week? 
1.  No,  sir,  they  could  not  if  they  were  not  living  at  home. 

I Q.  In  condueting  your  institution,  or  any  institution,  looking  at  the 

1 tonditions  that  exist,  do  you  think  it  is  right  for  those  girls  to  work  hard 
I 6 put  in  all  the  working  days  of  the  week  and  get  less  than  a living 
' l^age?  A.  In  one  way,  yes.  Now,  those  girls  are  really  not  worth  that 
io  me.  There  are  some  I would  replace  if  I eould. 

• . • 

I;  Q.  At  four  dollars?  A.  Yes,  beeause  we  have  trouble  in  getting  help. 
|7he  girls  do  not  care  to  work  with  us.  They  think  it  is  a school,  or 
indergarten.  They  work  for  us  a few  months  and  then  they  have  experi- 
tnce.  They  can  go  then  to  Shipper  & Block’s  or  Bergner’s,  as  being  girls 
jif  experienee  in  the  work.  They  can  start  in  there  at  five  or  six  dollars 
nd  so  we  lose  them  and  have  to  put  in  other  girls.  To  a large  degree, 
they  are  mechanical,  a sort  of  vending  maehine.  The  goods  are  displayed 
in  sight  of  the  customers,  and  marked.  The  goods  are  wrapped,  and  there 
, fe  a cash  register,  and  change  is  made.  It  is  not  like  the  skill  that  is  in- 
I olved  in  showing  and  selling  expensive  articles,  in  other  stores.  By  way 
I if  statistics,  I might  state  our  payrolls  cost  us  10^  per  eent  of  our  busi- 
' less.  In  the  case  of  the  stores  that  are  paying  girls  the  higher  prices,  their 
I layroll  cost  is  relatively  low,  and  shows  a mueh  smaller  percentage  of  sell- 
'jlng  cost  on  the  gross  sales.  We  are  practically  in  the  position  of  a school, 
{ir  an  apprentice-shop,  for  these  girls.  We  make  stock-keepers  of  them, 
i>ut  they  are  hardly  sales-girls,  because  of  the  simplicity  of  their  work, 
i'itill,  when  they  leave  us  they  possess  store  experience  and  can  get  positions 
ly  reason  of  having  worked  for  us  that  they  could  not  obtain  before. 

' Q.  What  do  you  think  it  would  cost  a girl  to  live  here  in  Peoria?  A. 

; don’t  think  that  a girl  who  has  no  home,  and  who  is  entirely  dependent 
ipon  herself,  could  live  on  seven  dollars. 

j Q.  She  could  not  live  on  $7?  A.  That  is  explained  by  other  eircum- 
tanees  that  figure  in  the  matter.  The  wages  we  give  these  young  girls, 
|vhich  is  all  that  we  can  give — all  we  can  afford — still  act  as  a considerable 
,ielp  to  the  family,  as  well  as  schooling  for  the  girl.  They  have  that  girl 
;0  support  if  she  earns  nothing. 

Q.  How  are  we  going  to  solve  this  problem  of  modern  conditions? 
Well,  I have  listened  to  the  different  statements  that  have  been  made 
n the  evidence  elicited  here  by  your  committee.  The  difficulty  that  it 
luggests  to  me  is  this:  If  there  is  a minimum  wage  established,  say  of 
fight  dollars  a week,  what  will  become  of  my  little  girls?  What  will  be- 
;ome  of  such  places  of  business  as  ours,  that  cannot  pay  it,  and  remain  in 


324 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


business  on  a competitive  footing?  Who  will  pay  my  girls — young  an 
inexperienced  as  they  are^ — eight  dollars  a week?  It  is  going  to  put  thei 
on  the  street,  in  too  many  cases — that  is  my  apprehension.  They  are  nc 
worth  eight  dollars  to  any  merchant.  You  can  see  by  the  scale  of  figure 
how  I advance  my  girls.  I have  girls  there  to  whom  I am  paying  $4  a wee 
and  even  at  that  wage  I wish  I could  replace  them.  I could  not  get  goo 
help  even  by  paying  more.  They  will  not  work  in  the  five  and  ten  cer 
stores  if  they  can  get  into  the  more  pretentious  places,  at  any  salary. 

Q.  What  was  the  net  profit  of  your  business  during  the  last  year?  I 
I can  answer  that  by  saying  there  wasn’t  any. 

Q.  Did  not  have  any  profit?  A.  Very  little. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  lose?  A.  We  did  not  lose,  but  we  had  ver 
little  profit — you  could  not  call  it  anything. 

Q.  What  would  you  call  a little — four  dollars  a week?  A.  That  i 
what  it  might  be.  It  is  a question  that  is  a little  out  of  order.  It  was  not 
very  successful  year. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  business  here  in  Peoria,  Air.  Roos? 
Four  or  five  years,  but  we  had  a bad  year  last  year. 

Q.  How  has  it  been  averaging  up  in  the  last  five  years,  here?  ^ 
Well,  you  see,  we  have  changed  the  character  of  our  business  entire!} 
We  used  to  have  a grocery  store,  hardware,  and  everything.  Now  w 
have  got  to  the  five  and  ten  cent  business.  We  are  just  getting  it  nicel 
in  line.  We  have  strong  competition  here.  We  are  building  up  ou 
business,  paying  expenses,  and  hope  to  do  as  well  as  the  rest  of  then 

Q.  Did  you  ever  try  to  live  on  four  dollars  a week,  at  any  time?  4 
As  a boy,  working,  I only  got  $25  a year  and  what  I ate.  I had  to  kee 
myself  in  clothes  on  that  amount. 

Q.  You  had  some  place  to  sleep,  and  what  you  ate  was  supplied?  4 
Yes,  I had  my  board. 

Q.  My  goodness,  man,  that  is  all  ^fe  are  asking  for  these  girls.  \\ 
want  to  give  them  food,  lodging,  respectable  clothing,  and  in  return  fo 
that  they  are  willing  to  give  their  time,  their  industry,  six  days  a weel 
A.  They  are  giving  their  time  all  right.  That  is  one  thing  sure.  The. 
are  not  in  all  cases  giving  any  more  industry  than  can  be  helped.  Ther 
are  plenty  of  them  that  are  willing  to  give  their  time,  but  they  have  n 
ability  to  give,  and  that  is  the  trouble.  If  I could  get  the  right  help  t 
come  and  work  for  me — that  is,  good  help — they  would  be  worth  more  i: 
some  way.  The  minute  they  get  worth  anything  to  me,  they  go  away, 
could  make  one  girl  take  the  place  of  two  if  I could  get  good  help, 
have  to  be  a kindergarten  for  the  larger  stores.  There  is  where  I thin, 
the  help  might  be  taken  care  of,  by  putting  them  into  an  apprentice-sho;, 
of  some  sort. 

Q.  You  are  making  k very  interesting  witness  for  us,  because  j'ou  ar 
stating  the  facts  frankly  and  honestly,  and  you  come  from  a business  tha 

is  paying  lower  wages  than  perhaps  an}'^  class  of  business  before  thi 

Committee.  A.  Yes,  that  is  true. 

Q.  And  you  frankly  admit  that  things  are  not  as  they  should  be?  A 
No.  It  can  hardly  be  helped.  We  are  paying  lO]/i  per  cent. 

Q.  What  is  the  trouble  with  our  American  business  men  that  the; 
cannot  do  as  well  by  their  helpers  as  the  slave  owner  did  by  his  slaves 
before  the  Civil  war?  A.  I do  not  understand  just  what  you  are  tryin; 
to  get  at. 

Q.  He  paid  the  keep  of  his  help.  Some  of  you  American  busines 
men  are  not  paying  the  keep.  A.  Mdien  they  are  living  at  home,  it  i 
different.  We  know  these  girls  live  home. 

Q.  Well,  the  home  in  that  case  is  paying  for  the  keep.  A.  No,  ther 

is  a difference  between  a girl  boarding  or  rooming  with  strangers,  wh< 

take  her  in  to  make  a profit,  and  the  girl  living  with  her  family.  There  i 
a profit  to  be  made.  The  girl  who  is  adrift  and  has  to  pay  her  board  t' 
the  party  she  boards  with,  has  certain  conditions  e.xisting  there  in  orde 
to  induce  her  to  come  and  pay  them  her  money  which  she  would  no 
demand  at  home,  and  thev  can  board  her  more  cheaply  at  home,  usuall} 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


325 


' here  she  pays  her  board  to  strangers  they  have  to  give  her  quality,  and 
;•  well  make  a profit.  At  home  the  conditions  are  different.  They  may 
lit  have  dessert,  for  instance — nothing  but  good  bread  and  butter  and  cof- 
fe — and  it  is  considered  all  right.  Where  the  girls  pay  board  they  have  to 
I've  meat,  steaks,  desserts,  and  things  of  that  sort,  every  meal.  Perhaps 
fe  extra  cost  does  not  do  them  any  good.  Usually  they  seem  to  have 
cough  at  home  to  keep  up  health  and  welfare.  But  in  the  boarding  places 
l*e  cost  of  help  and  everything  is  figured  in  and  then  a profit  added.  At 
hme  all  she  brings  in  is  regarded  as  that  much  help,  as  she  would  have 
1 be  fed  and  lodged  if  she  brought  in  nothing. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  As  I understand,  you  have  a five  and  ten  cent 
;ore?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  sell  goods  on  a very  close  margin?  A.  Yes,  sir.  It  all 
cpends  upon  the  volume  of  sales. 

Q.  You  buy  cheap  goods  and  sell  at  a less  price,  to  compete?  A.  We 
hve  to  buy  cheap  goods. 

] Q.  You  feel  that  you  cannot  pay  more  salary  on  the  margin  of  profit 
,1  your  goods?  A.  If  you  would  come  and  look  over  the  books,  you 
jOuld  find  that  the  payroll  is  all  that  the  business  can  stand, 
i Q.  This  Woolworth  concern  does  the  same  class  of  business  as  you 
je  transacting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

: Q.  The  salaries  that  are  paid  are  about  the  same,  are  they  not?  A. 
jurs  figures  a percentage  of  5.08. 

Q.  Of  course,  they  are  a big  concern?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  feel,  under  the  existing  circumstances,  that  the  prices  and 
■ofits  you  make,  you  could  not  afford  to  make  any  advances?  A.  No,  I 
)uld  not. 

Q.  You  say  also  that  you  believe  in  the  theory  of  the  minimum  wage 
i.ale?  A.  Yes,  sir,  for  the  good  help;  but  not  for  the  apprentices — no. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  low  wages  which  girls  receive  are  the  cause  of 
‘lem  going  to  evil  courses,  or  a principal  cause?  A.  No,  I would  not 
hink  so,  from  observing  my  girls.  I have  all  nice  little  girls.  I know  them 
ell.  I have  them  from  a year  and  over.  I have  girls  getting  seven 
jbllars  a week.  I can  see  my  girls  all  over  through  the  larger  stores,  all 
oing  well,  and  all  good  clean  girls.  I think  the  proposition  is  whether  they 
jjve  in  good  homes  and  have  good  mothers  and  fathers,  who  take  proper 
ire  of  young  girls. 

Q.  How  about  the  girls  that  have  no  homes?  Don’t  you  think  there  is 
fore  inducement,  more  temptation,  for  them  to  go  astray?  A.  Yes,  of 
purse,  if  they  have  not  a guardian  or  adviser  to  look  after  them.  Naturally, 
liey  fall  in  with  a man,  and  he  naturally  shows  them  some  pleasure  in  the 
ay  of  theaters,  etc.,  and  flatters  them  with  attention  and  promises.  By 
le  time  he  is  through  with  them  they  are  ruined  and  after  that  reckless 
!id  discouraged. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

j SENATOR  TOSSEY : What  scale  would  you  regard  as  right  for  an 
Apprentice,  commencing  as  an  apprentice,  and  what  sort  of  a scale  upward? 

Well,  I believe  if  you  would  take  it — our  business  is  a little  different 
;'om  others — taking  ourselves,  we  only  have  a small  profit.  I would  say 
i4.50  on  to  $6.  Perhaps  a girl  would  be  worth  $5  in  two  months.  There 
,i  a great  difference  in  girls,  you  know. 

Q.  Taking  the  average.  A.  This  would  be  the  average — $4.50  to  $5 
d six  months  and  after  that  $6. 

, Q.  And  after  that?  A.  That  would  be  up  to  the  girls  themselves, 
['hat  is  going  about  as  far  as  we  could  go,  as  a whole,  in  the  matter, 
j Q.  Within  the  next  six  months,  what  scale  would  you  suggest?  A.  As 


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I say,  that  is  about  as  far  as  we  could  go  in  our  situation.  We  raigh 
sprinkle  in  a few  girls  at  $6  and  $7  or  $8. 

Q.  They  would  be  figured  as  graduating,  then,  in  six  months?  A 
Well,  they  go  away.  They  can  then  get  other  places  and  they  won’t  sta’ 
with  you.  Prestige  figures.  They  do  not  like  after  a time  to  be  classed  b] 
the  public  with  beginners,  as  girls  working  in  a five  and  ten  cent  store  ari 
regarded,  somewhat. 

Q.  Have  you  any  system  of  fines  in  vogue  in  your  store?  A.  No,  sir 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  thank  you. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Dr.  Eugene  Cohn’s  Testimony. 

DR.  EUGENE  COHN,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  thi 
Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  aiK 
testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Doctor,  state  your  name  for  the  reporter?  A 
Eugene  Cohn. 

Q.  You  are  a physician?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  home  is  where?  A.  In  the  Peoria  State  Hospital. 

Q.  What  is  your  position  there?  A.  Assistant  superintendent. 

SENATOR  BEALE:  Doctor,  we  are  engaged  in  the  work  of  making 
an  investigation  of  the  social  problem  that  is  commonly  termed  the  whin 
slave  proposition,  and,  as  correlated  thereto,  the  wages  paid  for  women’: 
labor,  and  their  social  and  living  conditions,  especially  the  girls  and  womei 
who  are  adrift,  who  do  not  live  with  relatives  or  friends  solicitous  foi 
their  moral  welfare,  as  strangers  usually  are  not.  We  would  like  to  heai 
from  you,  a general,  frank,  straightforward  story  of  what  you  know  abou 
it.  Your  official  position  gives  you  special  knowledge  of  this  problem  ii 
some  of  its  phases.  We  will  interrogate  afterward. 

DR.  COHN:  According  to  my  theory,  the  basic  proposition  is  a mat 
ter  of  constitution,  the  physical  organization  that  we  term  constitutioi 
for  want  of  any  better  expression.  Now,  the  constitution  of  the  individua 
is  the  outcome,  the  product,  of  two  main  factors.  One  of  those  factor; 
is  what  we  call  pre-disposition,  or  heredity,  and  the  other  is  environment 
In  most  cases,  the  combination  of  these  two  factors  is  everything,  anc 
when  they  are  both  for  evil,  the  result  is  a tendency  that  is  most  com 
pelling  and  difficult  to  combat.  With  a proper  environment,  the  weak 
nesses  that  arc  inherited  are  often  repressed,  and  the  downfall  of  the  gir 
never  takes  place.  She  lives  a moral  life  of  usefulness,  for  all  her  days 
With  an  improper  environment,  the  girl  who  comes  into  this  world  handi 
capped  with  a weakly  constitution,  with  a faulty  inheritance,  is  very  ap 
to  fall,  to  be  overcome  by  the  stress  of  combining  circumstances.  Nov 
tendency  towards  prostitution,  to  be  specific  and  candid,  is  dependent  ii 
many  cases — not,  of  course,  in  all,  but  in  mnay  cases — upon  an  unstable 
nervous  system.  We  must  take  it  always  into  consideration  that  matteri 
pertaining  to  sexual  life  concern  one  of  the  most  essential  and  primitive 
elements  that  are  possessed  by  all  animals,  including  the  human,  and  i 
is  the  use  of  the  higher  mental  faculties,  and  the  proper  environment 
from  the  cradle  to  the  grave,  that  protects  the  human  being  from  being 
a victim  to  these  vices. 

Q.  You  are  a graduate  of  the  Berlin  Medical  School,  are  you  not 
A.  Post-graduate. 

Q.  Assistant  surgeon  at  the  hospital?  A.  Assistant  superintendent 

Q.  In  your  experience  and  judgment,  do  you  think  in  the  case  o 
girls  receiving  low  wages,  working  for  $3  to  $5  a week,  that  they  ar< 
more  liable  to  go  wrong  than  those  receiving  larger  salaries,  on  whicl 
they  can  live  nicely  and  dress  attractive!}'?  A.  I believe  that  low  wage: 
paid  to  those  girls  who  have  to  depend  on  their  earning  capacity  for  wha 
manner  of  living  they  can  obtain,  will  be  very  instrumental  in  shaping 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


327 


woman’s  life,  as  far  as  it  renders  the  environment  in  which  she  lives 
n improper  one,  very  often. 

; Q.  What  are  the  wages  paid  the  different  nurses  and  attendants 
^ the  Peoria  State  Hospital,  by  the  state?  A.  We  have  approximately 
pS  female  employes,  not  counting  the  female  physicians.  We  begin  our 
fttendants  and  domestics  with  twenty  dollars  a month  and  maintenance, 
j^hich  means  board,  room,  washing,  and  free  medical  care  in  case  of 
ickness.  Our  scale  of  wages  ranges  from  $20  to  $75  a month.  That  does 
[ot  include  the  female  physicians,  who  are  receiving  higher  wages  than 
nat;  but  the  nursing  force,  the  attendant  force  and  domestic  force  receive 
Images  from  $20  to  $75  a month,  and  maintenance  also, 
j SENATOR  BEALL:  Doctor,  is  there  anything  else  you  would  like 
b say?  You  have  had  experience  and  we  have  not  had  it.  We  are  here 
D try  and  learn  something. 

DR.  COHN:  I listened  with  interest  to  several  of  the  gentlemen 
lelonging  to  business  life,  regarding  their  opinion  as  to  low  wages,  in 
jonnection  with  the  temptation  towards  vice.  I must  say  that  I agree  -with 
lost  of  them.  I do  believe  that  low  wages  alone  are  not  responsible 
or  vice.  There  are  other  factors  besides  that  of  low  wages,  but  low 
yages  might  become,  as  I have  stated,  an  instrumental  factor  in  rendering 
■he  environment  of  the  girl  a dangerous  one;  and  if  that  individual  pos- 
esses  an  unstable  organization  she  is  apt  to  become  a victim;  and  we 
:now  from  experience  with  the  class  of  patients  we  handle  (insane)  that 
here  are  many,  many  women  who  undoubtedly  possess  an  inheritance 
:.ir  an  environment  which  makes  them  all  too  accessible  and  easy  victims. 
!Ve  know  also  that  the  male  sex  is  terribly  diseased  in  the  same  manner. 
, would  say  that  prostitution  in  many  cases  amounts  to  a diseased  con- 
lition. 


; li  Q.  How  many  female  patients  have  you,  there  at  the  institution? 
,V.  Approximately  eleven  hundred  females  and  as  many  male  patients. 

Q.  Do  you  lay  any  cause  for  insanity  down  there,  as  being  hereditary 
ir  brought  on?  A.  Well,  insanity  just  like  any  affliction,  the  causes, 
(specially  resembling  those  of  prostitution,  are  usually  predisposing  and 
Exciting.  The  predisposing  causes  are  usually  those  that  come  with  faulty 
I eredity.  The  exciting  causes  are  the  many  stresses  that  come  in  life, 
[hat  is,  illness,  worry,  troubles,  diseases  of  all  kinds,  and  cares;  but 
i i sually  it  takes  a combination  of  the  two.  The  one  without  the  other 
IS  usually  not  sufficient  to  break  down  the  mind.  When  we  have  a case 
where  a person  becomes  insane  because  he  has  had  a good  deal  of  worry, 
,1  |r  illness,  or  injury  or  shock,  we  also  usually  see  that  this  same  individual 
[ ras  originally  one  who  was  somewhat  unstable  as  far  as  his  nervous 
iiystem  goes.  We  find  that  his  family  usually  had  traits  that  point  toward 
Tn  unstable  nervgus  system,  as  a general  thing;  and  we  find  in  many  of  the 
tifirls  who  go  astray,  the  same  kind  of  a condition  existing,  as  to  heredity. 

Q.  Then,  Doctor,  you  think  that  starvation  wages,  or  low  wages, 
I krill  make  girls  go  to  the  bad?  A.  I believe  it  is  one  of  the  factors, 
; line  of  the  many  factors  that  will  assist,  in  those  who  are  predisposed, 
[ jiut,  please  remember,  those  who  are  predisposed  does  not  mean  every 
; me. 

, , SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  all.  Doctor. 

; j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  much  obliged. 

■ ! (Witness  excused.) 


! ieorgia  Hall’s  Testimony. 

1 _ GEORGIA  HALL,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com- 

hission,  being  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and  testified  as 
j follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


i 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Georgia  Hall. 

Q.  What  is  your  business.  Miss  Hall?  A.  I am  keeping  a house 
>f  prostitution,  on  G street,  221  North  G. 

Q.  A_ house  of  prostitution?  A.  Yes,  sir,  what  is  commonly  known 
.s  a sporting  house. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  girls  have  you?  A.  Three,  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  kind  of  business,  Miss  Hall: 
A.  For  about  22  years. 

Q.  Now,  Miss  Hall,  I want  you  to  state  to  this  Committee,  from  the 
depths  of  your  twenty-two  years  of  experience,  what  are  the  contributing 
causes  of  girls  going  astraj',  what  it  is  the  effect  of,  as  you  have  viewed 
it,  during  those  22  years? 

THE  WITNESS:  My  opinion  is  that  it  is  low  wages,  and  girls 
are  thrown  out  on  the  world  without  a home.  They  hav^en’t  anj'^  com- 
panionship, and  they  naturally  fall  into  prostitution  for  the  sake  of  com- 
pany and  companionship.  If  they  are  servants  in  private  residences,  they 
have  very  hard  and  discouraging  treatment.  They  are  treated  as  though 
they  were  inhuman,  and  the  most  of  the  girls  fall  from  these  causes, 
simply  because  they  fall  into  prostitution  for  the  sake  of  companionship 
and  getting  money  enough  to  eat.  They  haven’t  money  enough  to  eat, 
half  of  them,  when  they  try  to  get  along  and  pay  their  own  expenses 
on  the  wages  they  get  in  stores,  factories  and  offices.  They  haven’t 
enough  clothes  to  wear  to  make  a good  appearance  or  to  be  comfortable. 
When  girls  haven’t  enough  to  eat,  nor  clothing  to  wear,  what  else  would 
cause  them  to  fall  but  that?  I think  that  is  exactly-  why'  nine  out  of  ten 
go  astray.  Some  may  do  so  from  inclination,  being  simply-  inclined  that 
way;  but  the  number  is  not  large,  of  that  class.  I think  that  nine  out  ol 
ten  fall  for  the  sake  of  companionship,  clothing  and  food.  That  is  my 
idea  of  the  principal  cause. 

Q.  You  have  talked  to  them  and  they  have  told  you  this  story-,  in 
years  gone  by?  A.  Nine  out  of  every-  ten  will  tell  you  that  has  been 
the  cause  in  their  case,  either  that,  or  bad  treatment  at  home.  Some- 
times the  home  surroundings  are  very  bad.  The  girls  haven’t  any  com- 
forts or  conveniences  at  home,  haven’t  any  ordinary  kindness  sometimes, 
and  that  causes  them  to  wish  to  leave,  and  they-  afterward  fall.  Some- 
times they  are  actually  abused  by-  their  parents.  I have  had  girls  tell 
me  that  their  folks  would  abuse  them.  If  they  earned  a little  wages  they 
would  beat  them  because  they  did  not  bring  home  more,  they-  would  take 
every  cent  of  their  wages  and  send  them  out  to  work  for  more,  while 
a drunken  father  perhaps  laid  around  in  laziness,  or  a girl  was  forced  after 
working  hard  all  day  to  be  a nurse  to  babies  and  do  housework  all  evening 
without  any  pleasure  or  rest.  A‘  home  without  any-  pleasure,  and  not 
being  able  to  spend  any  part  of  what  little  they-  earn,  causes  y-oung  girls 
to  get  discouraged  and  drives  them  on  to  fall,  sometimes. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Do  you  know  of  any-  girls  being  brought  here 
to  Peoria  and  being  sold  as  white  slaves  since  you  have  been  here?  A. 
No,  sir,  I do  not. 

Q.  You  have  never  heard  of  it?  A.  I have  heard  of  them  being 
brought,  heard  about  such  things,  but  I don’t  know  about  it  definitely. 

Q.  You  could  not  swear  to  it?  A.  Oh,  no,  I could  not. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Do  you  know  of  any-  girls  that  are  keeping 
men?  A.  Well,  only  through  hearsay.  Of  course,  people  say-  that_  there 
are  a good  many  of  them.  I am  mostly-  to  myself,  I might  say  in  ex- 
planation. I do  not  associate  with  the  rest  of  them  in  any  way.  I don’t 
know  what  they  are  doing.  I know  of  two  that  are  living  off  girls.  One 
of  them  is  married  to  the  girl,  or  they  are  supposed  to  be  married,  so  I 
understand. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  He  sends  her  out  to  solicit,  does  he?  A.  No. 
she  is  running  a house. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  They  live  here  in  town?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  how  many  street  walkers  there 
are  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  make  an  estimate?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  not  estimate  the  number  even  roughly?  A.  No,  sir 
There  are  more  street  walkers  than  there  are  girls  on  the  line,  I think 
a good  many  more,  I believe. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Those  two  are  the  only  men  you  know  of: 
A.  Yes,  the  only  ones  I knoyv  of.  Of  course,  I hear  of  others,  but  I 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


329 


on’t  know  definitely  that  they  are,  it  is  only  from  people  coming  and 
elling  me  about  such  things. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  say  your  experience  and  your  judgment 
^ that  girls  in  a good  many  cases  go  wrong  because  of  low  wages?  A. 

. fes,  sir. 

■ Q.  Have  you  a specific  case  in  mind  that  you  can  quote  to  the  Com- 
pittee,  that  has  happened  within  the  last  year  or  two?  A.  Well,  no, 

; I could  not.  It  is  probable  that  one  girl  that  lives  with  me  might  have 
some  from  that  cause. 

’ Q.  When  did  she  come  to  you?  A.  About  a year  ago. 

j Q.  What  is  her  name?  A.  D J . 

( Q.  She  came  to  you  in  March,  1912?  A.  She  came  a year  ago  last 

December. 

1 SENATOR  BEALL:  Where  did  she  come  from,  when  she  came  to 
rou?  A.  From  Lincoln,  Illinois. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  had  she  been  doing  there  in  Lincoln? 

' 1^.  She  had  been  working  down  there. 

,!  Q.  What  did  she  say  about  it?  A.  She  did  not  have  many  clothes, 

I fiardly  any,  and  could  not  get  along,  so  she  came  here  and  came  to  my 
I jiouse. 

, [ Q.  Where  had  she  been  working,  when  she  lived  in  Lincoln?  A.  She 
i iad  been  working  in  the  hotel  there.  She  had  worked  in  different  places, 

I p Columbus,  Ohio,  and  other  places.  She  came  direct  from  Lincoln  to  my 
c place. 

T SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  I understand  you  to  say  that  nine  out  of 
t|en  girls  went  to  the  bad  from  starvation  wages?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  my 
i Opinion. 

If  Q.  That  is  your  observation,  from  twenty-two  years  of  experience?  A. 

' [ifes,  sir.  * 

If  SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  say  there  are  more  street  walkers  in 
iPeoria  than  girls  in  houses?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I think  there  are  a great  many 
pore  street  walkers. 

II  Q.  Those  street  walkers  are,  most  of  them,  just  beginners,  are  they 
hot?  A.  I don’t  know  about  that.  No,  I don’t  think  so.  I think  they 
liaave  been  on  the  town  for  a good  many  years.  The  reason  they  are  on 

j,he  town  is  because  they  have  not  the  money  to  live  on,  without  being 
itreet  walkers,  because  of  the  very  low  wages  that  are  paid  to  clerks,  girls 
[hat  work  in  hotels  and  stores,  etc. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Now,  madam,  has  any  girl  come  to  you 
Within  the  last  year  or  two  from  the  employment  of  one  of  the  retail 
jistablishments  here  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  not  definitely.  They  did — I mean 
f.o  say — but  did  not  say  they  had  been  in  such  employment.  There  was 
i girl  who  came  to  me  and  said  that  she  knew  girls  had  been  in  that  kind 
Df  employment  here,  and  they  would  not  offer  them  living  wages,  and  they 
isked  them  if  they  did  not  have  a gentleman  friend  to  help  them  out. 

Q.  Girls  that  worked  in  the  store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  Did  any  girl  tell  you  that  such  had  been  her  own  experience?  A. 
[No,  sir;  she  did  not  say  that  it  was  her  own  experience,  but  she  spoke  as 
I though  she  knew,  definitely  and  positively,  that  it  was  true,  and  actually 
happened. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  is  the  condition  here  or  anywhere  else?  A. 

: I do. 

Q.  I want  to  ask  you  now  how  many  sporting  houses  there  are  iri 
IPeoria.  A.  I am  sorry  to  say  that  I cannot  give  you  the  information, 

I because  I do  not  know  exactly  the  number  of  them. 

Q.  Just  a guess?  A.  Well,  there  are  twenty-five  or  thirty  sporting 
houses  here,  I guess,  on  Washington  street,  and  one  or  two  nearer  by. 

Q.  Are  those  houses  owned  by  women?  A.  Not  very  many  of  them. 
Q.  Are  they  owned  by  any  one  man,  by  several  men,  or  does  one 


I 


330 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


man  own  several?  A.  Some  of  them  are  owned  by  men  and  others  are 
owned  by  women. 

Q.  Is  there  any  one  man  here  in  the  city  of  Peoria  who  owns  more 
of  that  kind  of  property  than  any  other  one  man  that  you  know  about?  A. 
Well,  I don’t  know  definitely  about  that. 

Q.  Where  is  your  house  located?  A.  221  North  G. 

Q.  Do  you  own  that  property?  A.  No,  sir,  I do  not. 

Q.  Who  owns  it?  A.  Mrs.  Armstrong. 

Q.  Who  is  she?  A.  She  lives  on  Harrison  street.  She  ran  the 
house  for  a good  many  years,  and  then  she  moved  out,  nine  years  ago, 
and  I have  been  running  it  ever  since  that  time. 

Q.  She  owns  the  house  and  property — that  is,  the  title  is  in  her 
name?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  is  the  real  ownership  vested  in  her?  A.  She 
and  her  husband.  They  are  married.  It  might  be  in  their  names,  together. 
I could  not  tell  about  that,  but  I know  it  is  in  her  name,  in  a way,  because 
there  was  sornething  I wanted  done,  not  long  ago,  and  they  said  they  could 
not  do  it  until  she  gave  her  signature. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  it  said  that  any  woman  in  the  city  of  Peoria 
owned  just  bonds  for  deeds,  and  that  this  was  used  as  a clever  way  to 
cover  up  the  name  of  the  actual  owner?  A.  I have  not  heard  that  lately. 
I have  heard  it,  however. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  hear  it?  A.  Some  three  or  four  years  ago. 

Q.  Has  that  condition  been  changed,  since  that  time,  do  you  know?  A. 
I am  sure  that  I don’t  know  about  that.  I haven’t  heard  anything  about 
it,  in  the  last  four  or  five  year.s — three  or  four  years,  anyway. 

Q.  Suppose,  for  example,  that  I were  to  go  into  this  business,  and 
owned  four  or  five  or  six  houses;  is  there  any  way  that  you  know  of, 
that  has  come  under  your  observation  in  .twenty-two  years’  experience,  by 
which  I might  own  those  places,  and  yet  hide  my  ownership  from  the 
general  public?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know,  in  regard  to  that.  I don’t  see 
how  you  could,  if  you  had  deeds  to  the  property.  The  deeds  are  supposed 
to  be  recorded  in  the  property  owner’s  name. 

Q.  Are  they  always  recorded?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  about  that, 
definitely. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I do  not  mean  to  say  that  Peoria  has  such  con- 
ditions, because  I do  not  know  as  yet;  but  I heard  that  in  Chicago  the 
girls  have  to  work  for  from  $3  to  $4.50  a week,  in  the  large  stores,  and  some 
are  out  soliciting  on  the  streets  at  night.  Is  there  any  of  that  done  here? 
A.  I think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  facts  in  the  case?  A.  I don’t  know  any  defi- 
nite facts,  no;  but  I have  heard  it  stated  that  it  was  done  in  a good  many 
cases  here,  that  girls  had  to  go  out  in  the  evenings  to  make  a living. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Because  the  wages  that  they  could  earn  in  the 
day-time  at  their  work  were  not  sufficient  to  live  upon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

(Witness  excused.) 

R S ’s  Testimony. 

R S , a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com- 

mittee, being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and  testi- 
fied as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  vour  name,  please?  A.  R 

S . 

. Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-one  next  month. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Denver. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Peoria?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Illinois,  the  same  period  of  time?  A. 
No,  about  six  or  seven  years. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


331 


Q.  You  have  been  in  Peoria  two  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

; Q.  When  you  first  came  to  Peoria,  what  did  you  do  for  a living?  A. 
iVorked  in  the  National  Hotel. 

Q.  In  what  capacity?  A.  As  a telephone  operator, 
j Q.  Were  you  a good  girl  at  that  time?  A.  I was  a good  girl. 

Q.  You  had  not  been  sporting  at  all  before  that  time?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  the  National  a respectable  hotel?  A.  Yes,  as  far  as  I know. 
Q.  It  had  a good  reputation  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  It  has  since  burned  down. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  much  salary  were  you  paid  as  a tele- 
|hone  operator?  A.  $27  a month. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  hold  that  position,  as  telephone  operator?  A. 
lix  or  seven  months. 


Q.  Why  did  you  quit?  A.  Not  being  able  to  make  my  way. 

Q.  You  could  not  make  your  way,  on  $27  a month?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  was  without  your  board,  the  $27  a month? 
' L.  Yes,  without  board  or  room. 

Q.  When  you  were  getting  $27  a month,  at  that  time  how  much  did 
; ou  pay  out,  for  board  and  room — do  you  remember?  A.  I was  paying, 
s I remember,  two  dollars  and  a half  for  my  room. 

Q.  Two  dollars  and  a half  a week,  for  your  room,  you  say?  A.  Yes, 
• ir,  and  my  meal  ticket  was  three  dollars  and  a half,  at  the  restaurant. 

Q.  The  meal  ticket  was  $3.50?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  where  it  was  you  paid  $2.50  for  that  room? 
i It  was  at  State  and  Park  streets. 

' Q-  Was  that  a hotel?  A.  No,  it  was  just  a rooming  house. 

. Q.  Where  did  you  buy  your  meal  ticket  for  $3.50?  A.  Across  from 

he  Majestic  Hotel. 

'i  Q.  What  was  the  name  of  the  place  you  bought  the  meal  ticket?  A. 
I The  American. 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  consumed  about  $6  a week,  or  approxi- 
! jnately  $25  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  explain  to  the  Committee  how  you  squandered  the 
)ther  two  dollars  a month,  that  you  made?  A.  Well,  I guess  that  is  not 
i hard  proposition,  for  clothes  and  everything! 

Q.  You  can  spend  two  dollars  quite  easily  in  thirty  days?  A.  Yes, 
ir. 

Q.  You  endured  that  for  six  or  seven  months  and  then  came  to  the 
i j|:onviction  you  could  not  live  on  $27  a month?  A.  Impossible. 

Q.  What  was  the  next  step?  (Witness  silent.) 

Q.  Where  do  your  people  live?  A.  My  mother  is  not  here  at  the 
jrcsent  time.  My  father  is  dead. 


f EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  Will  you  tell  me  the  reason  why  you  think  girls 
ko  to  the  bad?  Don’t  be  afraid  to  answer.  A.  I have  only  one  reason, 
{I  think  there  is  the  only  reason:  a girl  cannot  make  her  way  on  that 
money,  is  all. 

Q.  She  cannot  make  her  way?  A.  It  is  impossible. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  girls  go  to  the  bad  from  their  choice,  as  much  as 
|:hey  would  from  poverty,  if  you  call  it  that?  A.  It  is  from  poverty  that 
hhey  go — poverty  is  what  to  call  it. 

j Q.  You  think  poverty  is  the  main  cause?  A.  It  was  my  reason. 

Q.  If  you  had  been  able  to  get  a position  with  a better  salary,  say  a 
salary  of  ten  or  twelve  dollars  a week,  do  you  think  you  would  have  landed 
vhere  you  are  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  would  not?  A.  No,  sir. 


332  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  business?  A.  A little  over 
year. 

Q.  You  think  you  would  never  have  fallen  had  it  not  been  for  that 
A.  No,  sir,  I don’t  think  I would. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  would  be  willing  to  quit  and  go  back  a 
$12  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  If  you  could  have  a position  at  $12  a weel 
would  you  go  back?  A.  Yes,  but  who  would  give  me  such  a plac 
now? 

(Witness  excused.) 

M C ’s  Testimony. 

M C , a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com 

mittee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  an 
testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  M 

C . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  26. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Lewistown,  Illinois. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Peoria?  A.  Ever  since  I was  1. 

Q.  Are  your  mother  and  father  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Living  in  Peoria  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  when  you  first  began  working?  A.  About  1- 

Q.  Where  did  you  first  get  employment?  A.  At  Clarkson’s  laundr} 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  It  was  at  that  time  on  Jefferson  an 
Main. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  3'ou  apply  there  and  secure  a position?  Ho' 
many  years  ago?  A.  About  12  years  ago.  I was  14.  I am  a little  mixe 
on  time. 

Q.  How  much  money  were  you  paid  for  your  services  there?  ? 
Three  dollars. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  the  $3  a week  that  you  were  paid  there 
A.  i gave  it  home. 

Q.  You  gave  the  entire  $3  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  father  was  living  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  working,  too?  A.  Not  very  much. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  he?  A.  Well,  he  was  about  the  same  as  the  ma 
jority  are,  I guess. 

Q.  What  do  j'ou  mean  by  that?  A.  He  drank  quite  a bit. 

Q.  Your  mother  got  very  little  support  from  your  father,  then 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  w'ent  to  work  at  14,  made  $3  a week,  and  gave  it  to  j'ou 
mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  a prett}'  hard  row,  was  it?  Did  3'ou  ever  weep  durin 
those  years?  A.  Certainly. 

Q.  Did  things  go  along  pretty  niceljH  Did  3'ou  have  enough  t 
eat  and  plentj^  to  wear,  or  enough  to  wear?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  mother  suffered  somewhat?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  this  continue?  A.  Hp  until  I was  ver\-  near  1! 

Q.  A period  of  four  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  3"OU  get  any  advance  in  that  time?  4 
No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  were  working  at  Clarkson’s  laundry  fc 
four  years  and  never  got  more  than  you  started  in  at,  $3  a week?  A.  Ye: 
sir. 

Q,  Is  that  laundry  still  in  existence?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


333 


I Q.  Do  you  understand  they  are  still  paying  wages  like  that?  A.  In 
e position  where  I was  doing  the  work  at  that  time,  they  are  still  paying 
.je  same,  as  far  as  I know. 

Q.  After  this  had  continued  for  four  years,  did  you  go  to  the  head 
that  concern  and  ask  him  for  an  increase?  A.  I asked  him  for  a 
fferent  position. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you?  A.  He  gave  me  a position  where  I could 
Dt  do  the  work.  It  was  on  a machine  I did  not  know  anything  about. 
I went  to  the  foreman,  and  told  him  I could  not  run  that  machine.  He 
^id,  “Well,  that  is  all  we  have  for  you  to  do,”  so  I left. 

Q.  Then  what  did  you  do?  A.  I went  home  and  looked  for  an- 
ther position.  It  semed  as  though  positions  were  very  scarce.  I went 
|>  Springfield  and  was  there  employed  at  the  Western  hotel. 

. ; Q.  What  kind  of  a hotel  is  t^at?  A.  As  far  as  I knew,  it  was  respec- 
I'ble. 

I Q.  What  did  you  do  at  the  Western  hotel,  in  Springfield?  A.  I 
as  a dining-room  girl,  a waitress. 

! Q.  How  long  were  you  there?  A.  Not  over  a month, 
f Q.  Why  did  you  leave?  A.  I left  simply  because  circumstances  per- 
liitted  it,  I guess.  I did  not  care  about  staying  there  any  longer. 

I Q.  You  say  that  circumstances  permitted  you  to  leave,  what  do 
jOU  mean  by  that?  A.  In  the  first  place  I was  not  making  enough  to 
ress  myself. 

! Q.  How  much  were  you  making?  A.  $2.50  a week,  board  and  room. 

Q.  Well,  you  had  gone  up  in  the  world?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  You  had  your  board  and  room  at  this  period  of  your  life  and 

[.50  a week  to  squander?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  leaving  the  Western  hotel  at  Springfield,  what  was  the 
:xt  step  in  your  career?  A.  I went  to  Jacksonville. 

Q.  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  the  money  you  received  at  the  Western 
itel  in  Springfield?  A.  I tried  to  buy  what  clothes  I could. 

Q.  Did  you  send  any  of  it  home  to  your  mother?  A.  No. 

i Q.  By  this  time,  you  had  ceased  to  turn  your  money  over  to  your 

,iother?  A.  Yes. 

1 Q.  Then  you  went  to  Jacksonville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  What  did  you  do  in  Jacksonville?  A.  I went  into  a house. 

I Q.  The  first  house  you  went  into  was  at  Jacksonville,  Illinois?  A. 
r’es,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  man  put  you  in  that  houi£,  at  Jacksonville?  A.  No, 
|ir. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  about  the  house  there?  A.  There  was  a lady 
Iriend  of  mine  that  told  me  how  grand  it  was. 

I Q.  Where  had  you  met  this  lady  friend  that  told  you  about  it? 
1^.  I met  her  in  Springfield. 

j Q.  Whereabouts  in  Springfield?  A.  100  West  Mason. 

!j  Q.  Was  she  a sporting  woman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j Q.  What  brought  you  in  contact  with  this  sporting  woman,  there? 

When  I left  this  hotel,  I went  and  got  a room  out  there, 
j Q.  At  this  sporting  house?  A.  It  was  not  a sporting  house;  it 
vas  just  a rooming  house. 

j Q.  Were  girls  permitted  to  receive  men  in  their  rooms  at  'that  room- 
ing house?  A.  Well — yes. 

I Q.  It  was  not  quite  straight  A.  It  was  not. 

Q.  At  what  period  of  your  life,  if  you  will  tell  the  Committee  for 
)ur  information,  did  you  go  wrong,  when  you  were  here  at  Peoria,  or 
jvhen  at  Springfield?  A.  When  I was  in  Springfield. 

, _ Q.  Had  you  been  a straight,  good  girl,  up  to  that  period?  A.  Yes, 
iir. 


334 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  When  you  were  working  in  the  laundry  here,  you  were  straight: 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Absolutel}^  straight?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  You  went  to  Springfield  then,  went  into  the  hotel  and  then  you 
fell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  man  profit  through  your  going  into  the  house  at  Jack- 
sonville? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  any  man  profiting  through  your  connection  wdth  the  house 
here  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  were  getting  $3  a week  at  the 
laundry?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  if  you  had  been  getting  $8  or  $9  a week, 
you  would  have  gone  astray?  A.  I know"  I would  not. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  now",  if  you  had  a position  paying  $10  or  $12  a 
week,  you  would  live  a straight  life?  A.  If  I could  have  a position  of 
that  kind  I don’t  think  I w'ould  do  anything  wrong  again. 

Q.  Do  other  girls  in  your  line  ever  talk  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we 
have  talked  things  over. 

Q.  What  did  they  tell  you?  A.  Different  things.  Some  cases,  there 

are  men  that  have  caused  their  downfall,  and  with  others,  it  is  because 

their  homes  have  been  very  disagreeable  and  unpleasant. 

Q.  Do  you  think  most  of  the  girls  that  go  wrong  go  wrong  from 
low  starvation  wages?  A.  I certainly  do. 

Q.  What  portion,  would  you  say,  can  attribute  it  to  that,  from  your 
observation?  A.  I don’t  know  the  number. 

Q.  Half,  or  three-fourths,  or  a quarter?  A.  Three-quarters,  yes, 
indeed,  at  least  that  proportion,  in  my  opinion. 

Q.  You  think  three-quarters  of  the  girls  that  go  astray  do  so  solely 
on  account  of  the  low  wages  they  received?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  I want  to  ask  you  one  question.  Your  mother 
is  living  in  Peoria  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  see  here  once  in  a while?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  she  know,  did  y"ou  tell  her,  what  business  you  are  in?  A. 
No.  My  people  think  I am  in  Springfield.  They  think  I come  here 
once  a week. 

Q.  You  see  them  once  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  give  your  mother  some  money,  at  least  once  a week? 

A.  Everything  I make  nearly,  all  I can,  only  what  just  buys  my-  clothes. 

Q.  She  thinks  you  are  living  a straight  life?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  care  to  have  your  name  published  or  would  you  rather 

give  initials?  A.  Give  the  initials,  please. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  As  a matter  of  fact,  is  the  name  y"ou  have 
given  us  your  right  name?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How"  much  do  you  make  a week?  A.  Some- 
times $50,  sometimes  $75  and  sometimes  $100. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Bertha  Hartman’s  Testimony. 

BERTHA  HARTMAN,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the 
Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and 
testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Bertha  Hartman. 

0.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I am  supposed  to  run  a house  of 
prostitution  here  in  Peoria. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


335 


Q.  Do  you  run  a house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you?  A.  Three. 

Q.  How  many  houses  are  there  in  Peoria?  A.  On  that  one  street, 
guess  there  are  about  20,  probably. 

Q.  You  have  a segregated  district  here?  A.  They  are  supposed  to 
i.ave,  but  they  haven’t  in  reality. 

Q.  They  do  not  have?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  pretty  well  scattered  throughout  the  city?  A.  Pretty  well 
cattered,  yes. 

Q.  Do  the  police  book  the  girls?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  is  meant  by  the  police  booking  system? 
V.  Fine  them,  do  you  mean? 

Q.  No.  I understand  that  at  one  time  in  Chicago  the  girls  were 
dl  registered,  or  booked,  by  the  police.  A.  No,  they  don’t  do  it  here. 

Q.  You  never  have  had  that  here?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  they  arrest  you  here?  A.  They  fine  us,  but  not  lately. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  have  been  fined?  A.  Well,  I think  about 
he  last  of  October,  I am  not  sure.  Since  October  we  have  not  been 
ined.  I am  not  sure  whether  it  was  in  October  or  August.  They  used 

0 come  at  us  every  three  months. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  business?  A.  About  six  years, 
)ut  not  steady. 

Q.  All  the  time  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  police  protect  the  district?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  get  pro- 
ection. 

Q.  You  get  protection?  A.  If  we  need  it,  we  call  for  protection 
ind  they  come. 

Q.  Can  anybody  go  down  in  the  district  and  open  up  a house? 

Not  without  asking. 

Q.  Whom  do  they  ask?  A.  Chief  Rose. 

Q.  You  ask  the  chief  and  he  gives  permission?  A.  If  he  thinks 
le  wants  .you  to  run,  he  gives  protection. 

Q.  How  do  you  make  him  want  3^011  to  run?  A.  He  asks  a lot 
Df  questions. 

Q.  He  looks  into  your  record  and  if  you  are  of  good  moral  character, 
ae  permits  you  to  run  a house?  A.  I don’t  know  about  the  moral 
character,  but  if  he  thinks  you  can  manage  the  place,  he  will  nrobably 
:et  you  run  it. 

Q.  Why  should  he  be  interested  in  the  management  of  the  place? 
A..  I’m  sure  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  of  any  woman  giving  the  police  any  money 
for  protection?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  that  ever  existed  in  Peoria?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Are  the  police  today  being  paid  money  by  the  w'omen  in  the 
district?  A.  Well,  not  by  me. 

Q.  Have  you  ever,  directU'  or  indirectl}^  paid  the  police  any  mone3'? 
.A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Only  through  fines?  A.  That  is  all,  -when 

1 was  called  up  for  a fine;  but  on  the  beat,  I was  never  asked  to  pay  any 
lush  money  of  any  kind. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  is  not  trying  to  insinuate 
.that  the  police  of  Peoria  are  guilty  of  that.  We  are  merel}'^  asking  you 
'from  your  experience  to  testify.  A.  A'es,  sir,  I understand. 

Q.  What  causes  women  to  fall?  A.  There  are  different  causes. 

Q.  What  is  the  main  cause?  A.  Well,  the\"  have  not  the  right 
kind  of  homes,  perhaps  they  have  a step-father,  who  is  abusive,  or  a 
■step-mother  that  is  abusive.  The}^  are  conipelled  to  go  out  and  work 
where  the  wages  are  not  high  enough  in  the  beginning.  Naturally,  when 
'they  are  very  young,  they  cannot  earn  much,  and  the}'  tr}'  to  live  on  it 


336 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


sometimes,  with  disastrous  results  in  health  and  happiness.  If  they  liv( 
at  home  they  perhaps  have  to  turn  over  every  penny,  or  thej'  have  no 
the  right  kind  of  a home  to  live  in,  perhaps  a drunken,  lazy  father,  am 
they  haven’t  any  amusements  except  the  street. 

Q.  Do  low  wages  have  anything  to  do  with  it,  in  your  opinion'. 
A.  1 suppose  in  some  instances  it  has  a great  deal  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  You  think  that  bad  home  environments  constitute  the  mair 
cause?  A.  It  naturally  does.  If  they  see  that  they  are  not  welcome  a 
home,  when  they  are  young,  and  they  see  other  girls  that  have  nice  clothes 
they  naturally  enough  try  to  find  some  way  to  get  just  as  good  clothe: 
and  just  as  good  a time  as  others  have. 

Q.  Most  of  the  girls  in  that  life  like  fine  dresses,  do  they  not; 
A.  All  women,  everywhere,  like  fine  dresses. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  think,  from  your  observation  and  expe- 
rience, and  I expect  you  have  talked  with  the  girls,  that  a considerable 
number  go  astray  because  of  the  low  wages  they  receive  for  their 
work,  $4  or  $5  dollars  a week?  A.  Well,  I had  not  heard  so  much  about 
it  until  since  this  subject  has  been  written  up. 

Q.  That  brought  up  the  question  in  issue?  A.  Of  course  they 
got  to  talking  together  then,  after  they  saw  it  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  then?  A.  They  said  that  was  the  cause 
of  it. 

Q.  Do  the  girls  in  your  house  say  that  was  the  cause  of  it?  A.  Twc 
of  them  said  so. 

Q.  Had  they  been  working  in  the  stores  outside?  A.  They^  had 
been  working  in  hotels  and  restaurants,  yes. 

Q.  And  they  could  not  live  on  the  wages  they  had  received?  A.  No, 
they  could  not  live  on  the  wages  and  have  anything. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  did  you  ever  know,  of  men  bringing  girls  to  places, 
and  selling  them,  or  getting  the  wages  of  the  girls?  A.  I never  heard 
of  it.  1 don’t  know  of  any  cases  of  it. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  know  of  any-  men  living  off  the 
women?  A.  I cannot  say  that  I know  of  any-,  no. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  believe  there  are  such  cases?  A.  I have 
heard  of  it. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Have  you  heard  it  pretty  strongly?  A.  In 
some  instances,  y-es. 

Q.  What  about  those  fines?  Were  you  arrested  or  did  they  just 
send  to  the  house?  A.  They  just  tell  us  to  pay  up. 

Q.  Can  you  send  the  fine?  A.  Yes,  you  can  do  that. 

Q.  Who  do  you  send  it  by?  A.  By  a messenger  boy,  or  else  by 
the  house-keeper. 

(Witness  excused.) 

G B ’s  Testimony. 

C, B — , a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com- 

mittee, being  first  duly-  sworn  by-  Senator  Beall,  was  first  examined  by 
Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  G B . 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  .A..  28. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  the  city-  of  Peoria  altogether? 
A.  I have  only-  lived  here  in  Peoria  about  five  weeks,  or  a few  days 
over. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from,  when  you  came  here  to  Peoria.' 
A.  I came  to  Peoria  from  Springfield. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


337 


Q.  How  long  had  you  lived  in  Springfield,  about  how  long?  A.  I 
was  in  Springfield  about  three  weeks,  then  I came  here. 

Q.  Before  you  were  in  Springfield,  where  were  you?  A.  In  Chicago. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  Chicago?  A.  I had  been  in  Chicago 
for  the  past  seven  years.  That  is,  what  I mean  to  say  is,  I had  not 
been  in  Chicago  all  of  the  time,  but  for  the  majority  of  the  time,  the 
past  seven  years,  I was  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Were  you  sporting  all  the  time?  A.  No.  I never  was  sporting 
until  the  time  I came  to  Springfield. 

Q.  You  were  not  sporting  then,  when  you  lived  in  Chicago?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  in  Chicago?  A.  I worked. 

Q.  Where?  A.  I worked  in  a laundry. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  it?  A.  The  laundry  where  I worked 
was  the  Manhattan-Perfection  Laundry. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?.  A.  Milwaukee  and  Leavitt. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  in  the  laundry?  What  kind  of  work  did 
you  do?  A.  I was  working  in  the  office. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  getting  when  you  worked  in  the  laundry 
office?  A.  I was  getting  ten  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Was  that  enough  to  live  on?  Were  you  able  to  get  along  all 
right?  A.  No.  It  is  not  enough  to  live  on  in  Chicago.  I was  not  get- 
ting ten  dollars,  either,  until  just  two  months ' before  I left  there. 

Q.  What  were  your  wages  before  you  began  to  receive  ten  dollars? 
A.  I drew  a salary,  first  of  seven  dollars,  and  then  eight. 

Q.  You  were  raised,  finally,  to  ten  dollars  per  week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Ten  was  the  highest. 

Q.  Why  did  you  finally  leave  there?  A.  I left  there  because  ten 
dollars  is  not  enough,  really,  for  a girl  to  live  on,  and  live  in  a respectable 
neighborhood,  such  a neighborhood  as  she  has  got  to  live  in  if  she  wants 
to  associate  with  anybody  else  worth  knowing,  and  it  isn’t  enough  if  she 
wants  to  have  any  presentable  clothes.  I was  dissatisfied  with  what  I 
was  paid,  and  with  trying  to  get  along  on  it.  I had  a sister  who  had 
been  in  a sporting  house,  and  she  used  to  be  here  in  Peoria.  When  I 
came  here,  she  wasn’t  here,  and  I went  to  Springfield.  In  thinkinu-  over 
things,  I figured  out  that  my  sister  was  making  a better  living  than  I 
was  making.  I was  working  every  day,  and  I didn’t  have  any  more  than 
she  had.  You  see,  I saw  friends  on  the  outside,  anyway. 

Q.  How  do  you  mean,  you  saw  friends  on  the  outside?  A.  Well, 
I mean  that  I was  seeing  friends,  outside  of  my  daily  work,  I saw  several 
people,  you  understand,  to  make  up  what  my  salary  lacked  of  paying  my 
expenses.  I felt  that  if  I was  right  in  a “house”  I would  be  able  to  take 
care  of  myself,  take  care  of  my  health  and  everything,  better  than  where 
a girl  worked  every  day  and  has  to  see  people  on  the  outside  at  night. 
In  a house  I would  have  more  comforts.  As  far  as  having  respect  of 
people  goes,  I wasn’t  any  more  respected  in  that  line  than  in  any  other 
line.  I was  sporting  just  the  same,  anyway.  The  way  it  is,  if  I am 
in  a “house”  I can  get  my  rest,  and_  I am  not  out  late  at  night.  I can 
rest  and  I don’t  have  to  get  up  early  in  the  morning.  I am  provided  with 
good  board,  and  with  a good  room,  and  I am  able  to  look  after  my 
health. 

Q.  Are  your  parents  living?  A.  My  mother  is. 

Q.  Is  your  father?  A.  As  far  as  my  father  is  concerned,  I don’t 
even  know  where  he  is. 

Q.  He  may  be  living?  A.  Yes,  he  may  be  living.  I don’t  know 
whether  he  is  or  not. 

Q.  Is  he  living  with  your  mother?  A.  No. 

Q.  Why  not,  if  you  know?  A.  They  have  been  divorced  since  I 
was  about  eleven  years  old. 

Q.  Why  were  they  divorced?  A.  Columbus. 

Q.  You  misunderstood  the  question.  Why  were  they  divorced?  A. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Well,  my  father  was  not  a provider,  for  his  family,  at  all.  He  worked 
some  times,  and  some  times  he  didn’t  work. 

Q.  Was  he  what  would  be  called  a drinking  man?  A.  Yes,  he 
drank.  Some  people  would  say  that  he  did  not  drink  to  excess,  but  he 
drank.  To  tell  the  truth,  he  was  just  lazy,  and  he  wouldn’t  work.  He 
would  have  position  after  position  offered  to  him.  Sometimes  he  would 
go  and  work  a day  or  two,  and  then  come  back  and  lay  around  home. 
When  he  had  a chance  to  work,  he  would  not  work.  When  work  was 
offered  to  him  he  would  not  take  it,  or  would  not  stay  at  work. 

Q-  Has  your  mother  been  working?  A.  Yes,  my  mother  is  work- 
ing right  now,  in  a hospital.  She  has  been  fourteen  years  in  one  place. 
We  lived  in  Ohio  for  fourteen  years,  and  my  mother  always  supported 
the  family. 

Q.  Was  the  family  large  or  small?  How  many  children  w'ere  there? 
A.  There  were  seven  of  us  children,  and  it  was  very  hard  on  mother. 
We  all  had  to  work. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  you  help  your  mother  in  your  younger 
days?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  always  help  her?  A.  Yes,  we  all  did.  When  I was  only 
13  years  old  I worked,  and  even  before  that  age. 

Q.  At  what  kind  of  employment  did  you  work,  when  jmu  were  13? 
A.  I was  working  then  in  the  summer  time,  in  private  houses,  taking 
care  of  children,  and  doing  house  work. 

Q.  And  then  you  went  into  the  laundry  office?  A.  Well,  when  I 
was  old  enough  to  leave  school,  I went  into  a laundry,  and  worked 
in  the  laundry  for  a time.  I went  into  a grocery  store,  too.  L did  every- 
thing I could,  everything  that  seemed  possible,  to  get  ahead,  and  to  get 
higher  wages,  more  money,  so  we  could  live. 

Q.  Your  mother  was  working,  also?  A.  Yes,  mother  was  also  em- 
ployed, but  we  simply  made  just  enough  to  scrape  along  on. 

Q.  Do  you  help  your  mother  now,  at  the  present  time?  A.  Well, 
I haven’t  been  in  this  business  long  enough  yet  to  make  much. 

O-  You  are  a stranger  here,  and  that  prevents  making  more  money? 
A.  Yes,  I am  a stranger  here,  and  my  earnings  aren’t  anything  at  all 
to  be  considered,  as  yet. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  main  cause  of  girls  falling?  A.  I think, 
undoubtedly,  the  low  wages  they  are  paid  is  the  cause  of  the  greatest 
percentage.  They  get  discouraged. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  other  girls,  about  this  same  subject?  A.  I 
have  been  in  the  company  of  all  kinds  of  working  girls,  and  I know 
from  my  own  experience,  and  their  experience,  that  it  is  simply  impossible 
for  a girl  to  live,  and  pay  board,  especially  if  she  wants  to  live  in  any 
sort  of  a presentable  house  at  all,  with  any  comfort  worth  while. 

Q.  The  expense  is  too  great  for  her  wages?  A.  Yes.  I have 
worked  and  lived  in  Chicago,  and  I know  that  the  average  rooming  house, 
where  a girl  can  get  a room,  if  it  is  respectable  at  all,  with  any  kind  of 
decently  furnished  rooms,  kept  properly  warmed,  and  fairly  clean,  will 
not  rent  her  a room  for  less  than  three  dollars  a week.  They  ask  more 
than  three  dollars  a week,  if  it  is  a room  that  is  at  all  pleasant,  and  is_  in 
a neighborhood  that  is  not  down  at  the  heels.  In  too  many  places  girls 
are  not  welcome  at  any  price. 

Q.  How  much  would  that  leave  for  meals,  after  room  rent  is  paid? 
A.  I took  my  meals  outside.  Many  rooming  houses  in  Chicago  do  not 
furnish  meals,  and  where  they  do,  the  meals  are  often  very  poor.  You 
cannot  eat  a meal  that  has  any  nourishment  for  less  than  twentj^  cents 
to  twenty-five  cents.  You  cannot  do  it  to  save  your  life.  The  cheap 
places  are  not  clean,  either.  When  a girl  is  working,  she  has  to  eat 
to  keep  well.  She  can’t  do  her  work  and  be  half-starved,  though  some 
try  to  do  that  for  a while. 

Q.  You  think  the  way  you  are  living,  j'ou  can  lead  a better  and 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


339 


I 


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easier  life  than  you  can  lead  the  other  way?  A.  Well,  I am  not  in- 
fatuated with  the  life,  I will  say  that.  However,  it  does  give  you  a 
chance  to  live  and  take  care  of  yourself.  It  gives  you  food  fit  to  eat, 
and  hours  for  sleep  and  rest.  The  house  closes  at  a certain  hour,  and 
you  are  not  required  to  do  anything  but  rest  until  a certain  hour  the 
next  day.  You  get  three  nourishing  meals  a day  and  a good  substantially 
comfortable  room.  You  have  a warm  room,  and  a bath,  and  every  com- 
fort is  considered  for  you.  There  is  companionship,  too.  In  a rooming 
house  you  have  no  companionship,  many  times.  They  expect  you  to 
stay  in  your  room,  most  places.  If  a girl  works  in  a private  house,  as  a 
domestic  servant,  then  you  have  the  kitchen  for  your  place.  If  anybody 
wants  to  see  you,  she  or  he  comes  into  the  kitchen.  They  give  you  no 
privileges  at  all.  Their  dogs  or  horses  would  be  treated  better,  in  many 
cases.  They  simply  have  no  consideration  for  you,  even  if  you  are  ill. 
They  wouldn’t  let  anybody  come  to  see  you  at  the  front  door.  You  are 
worse  than  any  slave  that  ever  was  in  existence  some  places.  They  don’t 
consider  you  ever  get  tired  or  need  rest.  You  are  a machine,  wound  up 
in  the  morning,  and  you  work  till  all  hours  in  the  night,  in  a private 
family.  You  are  up  in  the  morning  before  they  are  up,  and  you  get 
your  meals  in  a hurry  ,and  do  your  work  all  through  the  day,  and  then 
you  are  expected  to  work  late  at  night.  Their  dinner  is  late.  The  usual 
family  dinner  is  not  until  half  past  6 or  7.  By  the  time  you  get  the 
work  done,  it  is  8 or  9 o’clock.  When  they  have  company  it  is  worse. 
You  are  up,  after  late  work  at  night,  at  half  past  5 or  6 in  the  morning. 
You  work  all  day  long,  and  they  don’t  ever  stop  to  figure  how  many 
hours  you  work,  and  whether  you  need  rest  or  recreation.  They  give 
you  a salary  of  $5  a week,  and  sometimes  they  give  a salary  of  $3  or  $4, 
and  think  they  give  you  big  wages,  because  you  get  some  dark  little 
room  and  meals  you  are  too  tired  to  eat.  They  simply  don’t  care  how 
many  hours  you  work  in  domestic  service. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Some  of  our  witnesses  have  told  us  that 
it  was  a cold-blooded  business  proposition  with  them,  and  they  take  it 
up  for  the  wages  or  money  to  be  earned.  A.  That  is  true  I think  in 
nearly  every  case. 

Q.  You  take  your  employment  somewhat  as  a cold-blooded  propo- 
sition? A.  Certainly.  It  certainly  is  not  a case  of  choice  that  I de- 
liberately took  up  this  kind  of  a life. 

Q.  You  took  it  up  as  a matter  of  dollars  and  cents,  did  you?  A. 
Yes,  it  is  just  a matter  of  money  to  me,  and  is  the  only  way  I can  make 
anything  to  speak  of.  I have  a mother  that  will  be  on  my  hands  now 
in  a few  years.  I will  have  to  be  able  to  take  care  of  her,  when  she 
cannot  work  any  more.  She  is  getting  old  and  when  she  gets  so  she 
cannot  maintain  her  position  it  will  be  up  to  me.  I am  preparing  for 
that.  It  is  the  money  and  not  any  charm  in  the  life  that  I am  thinking 
of,  outside  of  comfort  that  I cannot  make  enough  to  pay  for,  in  other 
work. 

Q.  Did  you,  in  your  youth,  receive  any  kind  of  religious  training? 
A.  Yes,  I certainly  did.  I was  a member  of  the  Methodist  church, 
and  my  mother  was  a member  of  the  Methodist  church. 

Q.  You  were  taught  the  difference  between  right  and  wrong?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I was. 

Q.  You  were  taught  that  in  the  contemplation  of  the  Christian  re- 
ligion, that  one  person  is  as  good  as  another?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  Committee  has  been  criticised  for  giving  your  class  a hear- 
ing, for  giving  women  engaged  in  your  calling  a hearing.  It  has  even 
gone  to  the  length  where  a protest  has  just  been  made  by  a minister 
of  the  gospel.  Do  you  think  you  are  entitled  to  a hearing?  A.  I cer- 
tainly do.  I certainly  think  that  the  sporting  women  of  any  town  are 
entitled  to  a hearing,  so  that  people  can  find  out  why  it  is  that  girls 
reach  certain  stages.  We  don’t  go  into  that  life  with  the  motive  that 
we  like  the  life  for  itself.  We  go  into  it  because  there  is  a better  living 
to  be  earned  in  it.  We  are  human  as  well  as  anybody  else.  We  are 
citizens,  in  a way,  anyhow,  and  we  have  a right  to  a hearing.  We  are 
the  product  of  the  social  conditions  that  people  tolerate,  except  as  to 
the  result.  Any  man  who  will  come  into  that  house  where  we  are — 


340  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


I don’t  care  who  he  is — when  he  comes  there  he  will  respect  us  ki  our 
line  of  business.  It  is  a business  house  as  well  as  any  other  kind.  He 
respects  us  in  that  position,  be  it  what  it  is,  and  we  admit  that  we  are. 
As  to  why  we  became  that,  if  it  is  going  to  help  us  or  anybody  else 
to  learn  the  reason,  we  certainly  would  be  entitled  to  a hearing.  That 
is  as  far  as  my  opinion  of  it  is  concerned. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  sum  per  week,  do  you  believe,  from  your 
experience  in  Chicago  and  elsewhere,  would  be  a fair  wage  for  a woman 
working  in  stores  and  factories — on  which  she  could  live  nicely,  and 
comfortably,  with  careful  management  of  her  money?  A.  How  much 
she  ought  to  receive  to  live  comfortably? 

Q.  Yes,  what  amount  per  week?  A.  I do  not  see  how  a girl 
who  is  entirely  dependent  on  herself  can  live  below  a certain  cost  without 
discomfort,  and  injury  to  her  health.  The  girl  who  lives  at  home  is 
entirely  different.  She  pays  her  board  and  the  rest  of  her  salary  is  her 
own.  Ihe  girl  who  receives  some  help  from  relatives  is  also  situated 
differently  from  the  girl  who  is  entirely  alone,  financially.  When  a girl 
is  entirely  dependent  on  herself,  and  has  to  pay  for  room  and  food, 
washing,  clothing,  medicine,  and  everything  required  for  mere  existence, 
with  absolutely  no  income  on  the  outside,  it  is  impossible  for  her  to  live 
on  less  than  $12  to  $15  a week.  Even  then  she  has  only  a moderate 
living,  if  she  has  any  place  to  take  care  of  herself  and  live  right.  In 
figuring  this,  you  have  to  consider  that  a girl  loses  a few  weeks  in  a 
year.  She  may  be  out  of  work  or  ill.  L’nexpected  misfortunes  throw  a 
cost  that  is  high  and  unexpected  on  her  and  throw  all  her  figuring  out 
of  line  for  weeks  or  months.  I have  tried  to  manage  on  the  wages  paid 
a girl,  and  I am 'not  a thoughtless  young  girl.  I have  tried  it  and  I 
have  worked  in  all  the  lines  open  to  girls  of  ordinary  education  and 
equipment  for  work.  I know  positively  that  you  cannot  do  it  for  very 
long  on  the  wages  usually  paid.  There  must  be  outside  help  of  some 
kind. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Poor  wages,  low  wages,  then,  is  one  of  the 
chief  factors  in  making  girls  go  wrong,  in  your  opinion — it  is  on  account 
of  starvation  wages?  A.  Yes,  I call  it  starvation  wages.  That  is  the 
cause  with  the  average  woman,  with  most  of  them.  Of  course  the  envi- 
ronment might  figure  wdth  some  people,  with  a few.  Some  people  have 
rather  weak  minds,  and  of  course  there  are  lots  of  people  who  are  stronger 
minded  than  others,  who  can  resist  temptation.  ^lore  than  that,  I want 
to  say  the  temptation  is  something  great,  upon  a girl  trying  to  get 
along  on  a pittance.  Nobody  can  realize  it  except  those  who  have  been 
out  on  the  mercy  of  the  world  themselves,  how  a man  will  tempt  a 
woman,  especially  when  she  needs  a little  money  very  badly,  for  the 
ordinary  needs  of  life  or  for  ordinary  pride  of  appearance  in  clothes  and 
things.  Men  whom  you  would  never  suspect  at  all  will  almost  hound 
a girl  with  temptations,  men  that  are  supposed  to  be  highly  respectable 
men,  who  have  a wife  and  a family  of  children  of  their  own.  The  men 
of  family  are  the  very  worse  tempters  of  the  whole  bunch.  I know, 
because  I have  had  the  experience.  People  who  hold  up  a church  and 
neighborhood  reputation,  and  wLo  have  a fine  family  of  children,  with 
young  daughters  of  their  own,  take  advantage  of  a working  girl’s  poverty 
and  the  fact  that  she  has  no  men  in  her  family  who  will  protect  her. 
She  is  safer  prey  than  any  other  class,  in  many  ways. 

Q.  You  refer  to  men  that  are  supposed  to  belong  to  a church  and 
whom  people  would  think  to  be  Christians?  A.  Yes,  and  I know  it 
is  true.  I know  positively  that  men  who  are  active  members  of  churches 
are  the  runination  of  many  wmmen,  men  with  families  and  daughters  of 
their  own.  The  cloak  makes  them  more  dangerous  and  more  successful 
W'ith  girls. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  contribute  to  your  mother’s  support 
now?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Of  course,  just  now  I do  not  have  to  contribute 
very  much,  as  mother  is  earning  a salary  just  now,  on  which  she  can 
live  very  nicely. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


341 


SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  know  of  any  considerable  number  of 
girls  who  contribute  to  the  support  of  their  mothers  or  sisters?  A.  You 
mean  girls  in  sporting  houses? 

j Q.  Yes.  A.  I eould  not  say  anything  about  the  percentage  because 

I am  not  acquainted  with  any  of  the  sporting  people,  or  that  is  to  say, 
! there  are  very  few  that  I know.  I have  not  been  in  the  business  long 
! enough  to  know  very  many. 

j (Witness  thanked  and  excused.  Rev.  Barlos  Carpenter  called,  but 

! not  present  in  the  audience.) 

■ L D ’s  Testimony. 

1 L D , a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com- 

mittee, being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and 
i testified  as  follows: 

! EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

1 Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  L D . 

: Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  I will  be  25  in  May. 

Q.  Of  this  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  business — sporting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Lafayette,  Indiana. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  live  there?  A.  About  17  years. 

Q.  You  attended  school  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  do  any  work  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  work?  A.  A candy  factory. 

IQ.  In  what  line?  A.  Making  candy. 

Q.  What  were  you  paid?  A.  $1.50  a week. 

Q.  How  many  hours  did  you  work  in  that  candy  factory  for  $1.50? 

A.  Seven  in  the  morning  till  5:30  at  night. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  then?  A.  Fourteen  to  fifteen. 

!Q.  How  many  years  did  you  work  there?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  Before  that  time,  you  attended  school?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  far  did  you  go  in  school?  A.  Until  14  years  old. 

Q.  What  grade  did  you  get  into?  A.  Seventh  grade. 

Q.  Your  father  and  mother  were  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  your  father  a pretty  good  sort  of  father?  A.  Pretty  good, 

yes. 

|,  Q.  Did  he  make  enough  money  to  keep  the  home  going  along  nicely? 

i A.  Some  times. 

j Q.  Did  he  other  times.  A.  Sometimes  he  did  and  sometimes  he 

! did  not. 

Q.  You  remained  there  until  you  were  17?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  then?  A.  Indianapolis. 

Q.  You  went  alone?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  in  Indianapolis?  A.  Waited  table. 

Q.  Where?  A.  320  E.  Washington  street. 

Q.  In  Indianapolis?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  a respectable  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
i Q.  A boarding  house?  A.  Hotel. 

I Q.  What  was  the  name  of  it?  A.  Ferris  Hotel. 

I Q.  How  much  were  you  paid?  A.  $3.50  a week  and  board, 

j Q.  Board  and  room?  A.  No,  sir;  I roomed  myself, 

i Q.  Out  of  the  $3.50  how  much  did  you  pay  for  a room?  A.  $2. 

Q.  That  left  you  $1,50  a week  for  luxuries,  clothing,  etc.?  A.  Yes, 


342  Retort  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  in  that  work?  A.  Three  and  a third 
years. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  get  more  than  $3.50?  A.  They  raised  me  to  $5. 

Q.  Raised  you  to  $5  and  no  more?  A.  That  was  all. 

Q.  That  took  you  up  to  21?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  remained  a good  girl  all  this  time?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  cease  to  be  a good  girl?  A.  About  19. 

Q.  You  were  a good  girl  until  you  went  to  Indianapolis?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  By  a good  girl,  I mean  strictly  good?  A.  I was  strictly  good. 

Q.  Until  you  went  to  Indianapolis?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  remained  in  Indianapolis  about  a year  before  you  ceased  to 
be  a good  girl?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  brought  about  your  downfall?  The  first  step,  I mean.  A. 

I did  it  myself,  I guess. 

Q.  Was  the  first  step  for  money  or  affection?  A.  Money. 

Q.  You  were  paid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  that  particular  time,  when  you  took  that  step  for  money,  were 
you  very  hard  up?  A.  Yes,  I was,  very  hard  up. 

Q.  Very  short  of  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  continued  at  Indianapolis,  working  at  that  place,  for  $3.50 
and  $5  a week,  and  at  the  same  time  sporting  on  the  side?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  condition  up  to  your  21st  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  after  you  left  Indianapolis?  A.  I did  not 

leave  Indianapolis.  I went  down  the  line. 

Q.  You  went  down  the  line  in  Indianapolis?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  to  Peoria  one  year  ago?  A.  I have  been  in  Peoria 
since  May. 

Q.  You  came  here  from  Indianapolis?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  to  Peoria?  A.  I just  wanted  to 

come,  is  all. 

Q.  Have  you  any  relatives  living  here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  friends?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Whose  house  were  you  in,  in  Indianapolis?  A.  Maj’'  Williams’ 
house. 

Q.  Where  is  that?  A.  528  East  court. 

Q.  That  was  the  last  house  you  were  in,  when  in  Indianapolis? 
A.  It  is  the  only  one  I was  in. 

Q.  When  you  decided  to  come  up  here,  what  suggested  Peoria  to 
you?  A.  I just  wanted  to  come. 

Q.  You  didn’t  know  anybody  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  sir.  Another  girl 
and  I came  here  at  the  same  time. 

Q.  You  came  together?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Before  coming,  did  you  get  a letter  from  anybody  in  Peoria?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  madam  running  that  house  get  a letter  saying  they  needed 
girls  in  Peoria?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  came  on  the  chance  the  house  might  not  be  filled?  A. 
That  is  what  I thought. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  this  girl  has  told  her  life  story 
and  the  story  speaks  for  itself.  Do  you  wish  to  interrogate  this  witness 
at  this  point.  Senator  Beall? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  wages  were  you  receiving  when  you 
went  sporting?  A.  I was  about  21 

Q.  No,  I mean  what  wages?  A.  $5  a week. 

Q.  Why  did  you  go  sporting?  A.  Because  it  was  not  enough  money. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


343 


Q.  You  could  not  live  off  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  for  that  reason  solely?  A.  Solely. 

Q.  You  could  not  live  on  that  money?-  A.  Not  well  enough  to  be 
satisfied. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  you  had  a position  with  good  pay  you  would  quit 
this  life?  A.  Yes,  sir;  if  I had  enough  to  live  on. 

Q.  What  could  you  live  on?  A.  I could  not  live  on  less  than  $10  or 
$12  a week  with  much  comfort. 

Q.  What  do  you  make  now,  all  you  can  get?  A.  Yes,  mostly. 

Mr.  Henry  G.  Kuch’s  Testimony. 

HENRY  G.  KUCH,  a witness  summoned  to  appear  before  the  Com- 
mittee, having  been  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  interrogated  and 
testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Henry  J.  Kuch. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manufacturing  tin  cans  and  tin  ware. 

Q.  With  what  company  are  you  connected?  A.  Steuber  & Kuch. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection?  A.  One-half  interest. 

Q.  Are  you  the  president,  or  an  officer  of  any  kind  in  the  company? 
A.  It  is  just  a partnership. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  some  of  these  girls  who  have  been  testifying  here? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  girls  from  the  underworld?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  heard  their  stories?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  subject  of  vice,  as  connected  with 
the  matter  of  low  wages?  A.  Well,  to  a certain  extent,  low  wages  might 
have  something  to  do  with  it,  but  I do  not  think  it  is  low  wages  altogether. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  a commendable  proposition  for  us  all  to  co- 
operate and  try  to  make  conditions  better  for  working  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  without  injuring  business  interests?  A.  Yes,  sij". 

Q.  How  are  we  going  to  go  about  it,  Mr.  Kuch?  A.  In  our  case, 
if  all  the  competition  were  put  on  the  same  basis 

Q.  It  would  not  affect  you  adversely?  A.  I think  not,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  favor  a minimum  wage  for  women  in  this  state,  or 
such  a law?  A.  I cannot  say  that  I would  or  could,  because  we  have 
competition  at  Cincinnati,  Cleveland,  Buffalo,  Kansas  City,  Minneapolis, 
St.  Paul  and  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Then  you  believe  there  should  be  a uniform  law  in  all  the  states? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  there  is  to  be  any  enactment  of  law,  fixing  minimum  wage 
scales?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  women  do  you  employ?  A.  Married  and  unmar- 
ried, we  have  56. 

Q.  Fifty-six  in  all?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  low^est  wage  paid  to  any  one  of  those  women?  A. 
They  all  work  piece  work.  We  have  a few  that  are  under  16  years  old. 
Their  average  pay  is  $5.64  a week  for  8 hours  a day. 

Q.  Now,  if  you  please,  we  do  not  want  the  average  pay.  We  want 
to  find  out  what  is  the  lowest  pay — the  lowest  wage.  A.  I can  hardly 
get  at  that,  because  they  work  piece  work.  They  are  all  paid  on  the 
same  basis  of  payment. 

Q.  Take  last  week’s  pay  roll,  did  any  girl  get  as  low  as  a dollar  for 
her  week’s  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  lowest  amount  paid  to  any  girl  on  last  week’s  pay 
roll?  A.  A girl  between  14  and  16,  the  lowest  we  pay  them  to  get  them 
broken  in  and  started  on  the  work,  is  $4  a week;  but  then  we  only  have  girls 
that  stay  at  home  for  that  work. 


344  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Have  you  last  week’s  pay  roll  at  hand?  A.  I have  the  pay  roll  of 
the  week  before.  Last  week’s  is  not  ready. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  amount  on  that  pay  roll?  A.  $4.50,  for  8 
hours’  work. 

Q.  That  was  week  before  last?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Week  before  last  no  girl  employed  by  your  firm  was  paid  less 
than  $4.50?  A.  That  is  correct. 

Q.  To  that  statement  you  can  swear?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Those  are  8-hour  i 
girls.  The  10-hour  girls  make  more  money. 

Q.  How  do  you  treat  your  women  workers — treat  them  pretty  well? 
A.  We  aim  to.  . 

Q.  Suppose  they  are  not  working  as  fast  as  they  should,  have  you 
anybody  to  drive  them?  A.  No.  If  they  do  not  work  as  fast  they  ought 
to,  we  let  them  out. 

Q.  Do  you  give  them  any  notice?  A.  No,  not  especially. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  fire  girls  on  the  spot?  A.  Not  unless  they  have 

done  something.  I don’t  know  that  it  has  happened  in  the  last  year 

or  two  that  any  have  been  discharged  on  the  spot. 

Q.  How  much  notice  do  you  usually  give  them?  A.  It  is  very  rarely 
we  discharge  them. 

Q.  When  you  do  discharge  them?  A.  It  depends  on  whether  they 
have  done  something  offensive,  or  done  something  in  the  way  of  cheating 
on  the  piece  work.  Then  we  let  them  go  on  the  spot.  Sometimes 
the  parents  come  down  the  next  day  to  see  what  is  wrong,  and  then  we 
sometimes  take  the  girls  back  again. 

Q.  Are  you  of  German  extraction?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  the  system  in  some  parts  of  Germany  regarding 

the  discharge  of  employes?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  a system  whereby  workers  can  only  be  discharged  quar- 
terly. Would  you  favor  that  system?  A.  I don’t  know  about  that. 

Q.  Before  each  quarter,  two  weeks’  notice  must  be  given  the  em- 
ployee. How  would  that  system  work  out  in  this  country?  A.  It  might 
work  all  riglit  with  some  people,  but  not  with  others. 

Q.  How  would  it  work  out  in  your  business?  A.  I could  not  tell. 

It  would  depend  upon  the  provisions. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  least  amount  upon  which  a woman  can 
live  in  the  city  of  Peoria?  A.  Vy  wife  used  to  be  a servant  girl.  She 
lived  on  $3  a week. 

Q.  And  board  and  room?  A.  Yes,  sir;  she  was  a servant  girl. 

Q.  Well,  now,  suppose  that  the  girl  has  to  go  out  and  pay  for  her 
board  and  room.  What  is  the  least  amount  she  can  live  upon?  A.  I don’t 
know.  I could  not  state. 

Q.  I think  that  this  Committee  would  be  pretty  well  satisfied  if  all 
the  girls  in  Illinois  M’ere  getting  their  board  and  room  and  three  dollars 
a week  besides;  but  we  are  finding  that  a good  many  of  these  girls  do 
not.  Now,  the  girls  to  whom  you  are  paying  $4  and  $5  a week  are  not 
getting  their  board  and  room  and  clothing,  are  they?  A.  They  have 
homes  where  they  stay. 

Q.  Who  supports  the  home?  A.  The  father  and  mother,  very 
likely.  These  are  young  girls. 

Q.  How  old  are  they?  A.  Between  14  and  16,  as  I stated. 

Q.  You  have  a tabulation  there.  Would  you  mind  giving  us  that,  or 
reading  it?  A.  You  can  have  it.  I brought  it  for  you. 

Q.  Shall  we  put  it  into  the  record,  with  your  consent?  A.  Very 
well. 

Q.  First,  how  many  girls  are  getting  $5,  there?  A.  There  are  none 
of  them,  in  particular.  There  won’t  be  one  found,  who  is  getting  exactly 
$5,  there.  The  average  is  $8.72  a week. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


345 


SENATOR  TOSSEY;  Are  those  8-hour  girls,  or  10-hour  girls?  A. 
Those  are  10-hour  girls,  and  the  average  wage  is  $8.72. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  average  wage  for  8 hours  is  $5.64?  A. 
Yes.  They  are  all  paid  on  the  same  basis.  You  will  see  the  different 
wages.  Some  are  making  as  high  as  $12  and  $14  a week.  They  are  all 
paid  on  the  very  same  basis. 

Q.  Those  girls  who  make  less  than  $7  a week — are  they  all  living 
home?  A.  It  states  there,  those  that  are  living  at  home,  and  those  that 
are  boarding.  Let  us  take  the  case  of  this  girl.  I will  not  call  out  her 
name.  We  will  call  her  L.  T.  She  is  single  and  boarding,  getting  $6.50 
a week. 

Q;  Do  you  know  this  girl  A.  Yes,  I know  her. 

Q.  Is  she  getting  along  pretty  nicely  on  the  sum  of  $6.50  a week?  A. 
I don’t  know. 

Q.  Has  she»ever  complained  to  you?  A.  She  has  never,  as  she  is 
paid  on  the  same  basis  as  girls  that  make  $10. 

Q.  Taking  her  as  an  individual  case,  she  is  single,  boarding,  getting 
$6.50  a week.  As  far  as  you  know  she  has  no  other  means  or  income? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  she  boards?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  sought  to  inquire?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  that  girl,  as  an  example,  should  fall,  because  she  finds 
it  impossible  to  live  on  this  $6.50  a week — would  you  feel  the  pangs  of 
conscience  on  her  account?  A.  Well 

Q.  Would  you  feel  as  an  employer  you  had  been  a little  too  lax  in 
your  duty  not  to  inquire  into  this  girl’s  life  a little  more?  A.  Well, 
I have  never  given  it  any  thought.  Our  thoughts  are  coming  to  us 

when  we  read  the  newspapers.  When  I came  from  Denver,  night  before 

last,  I was  thinking  there  were  a lot  of  things  to  be  learned,  that  it  would 
pay  me  to  investigate.  What  would  you  do  in  a case  of  that  kind? 

Q.  It  is  a hard  ma’tter  to  say,  some  times,  just  what  should  be  done. 
A.  There  is  competition  that  enters  into  it,  and  especially  trust  compe- 
tition, that  enters  into  it. 

Q.  But  talking  as  man  to  man,  the  employer  has  some  moral  respon- 
sibility? A.  It  might  place  it  in  such  a position  that  we  would  have  to 
let  her  out  and  take  on  somebody  that  has  a home.  You  see,  there  would 
not  be  anything  left  for  profit,  if  you  had  to  pay  high  v/ages  to  everybody. 

Q.  What  were  the  profits  last  year?  A.  Just  8 per  cent. 

Q.  What  was  it  in  round  numbers?  A.  (Note:  Witness  answered 

frankly,  but  answer  is  not  printed  here,  for  reason  appearing  below.) 

Q.  On  an  investment  of  how  much  money?  A.  (Note:  See  note 
above.) 

Q.  Those  are  net  profits?  A.  Net  profits. 

Q.  You  have  to  subtract,  of  course,  a certain  per  cent  for  wear  and 
tear  of  machinery,  etc.?  A.  About  2 per  cent,  and  that  is  not  enough. 

Q.  But  the  amount  quoted  is  a net  profit?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  have  you  figured  up A.  Is  all  this  profit  talk  going 

into  the  papers?  I don’t  think  we  want  all  that  published.  I don’t 
think  they  are  questions  that  ought  to  be  answered,  but  I am  willing  to 
answer  them  for  the  information  of  the  Committee  but  not  for  widespread 
publication  in  the  press. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  will  ask  the  newspaper  men 
not  to  make  public  the  profits  in  this  case. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  gentleman  is  very  accommodating  to  give 
it,  and  I think  he  should  be  treated  right. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Especially  about  using  the  name.  I think 
you  could  quote  the  8 per  cent. 

PRESS  CORRESPONDENT:  Is  it  all  right  to  state  the  figure 
without  quoting  names? 


346 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Yes,  if  you  do  not  disclose  the  identity  in 
other  ways. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  have  a bill  in  the  legislature  to  make  a 
minirnum  wage  for  girls.  What  do  you  think  would  be  a fair  minimum 
for  girls,  so  they  could  live  comfortably,  and  have  decent  clothes,  and 
be  a credit  to  the  community?  I am  not  talking  about  little  bits  of  girls 
but  girls  from  17  years  up  to  25  or  over?  A.  I think  our  average  of 
$8.72  is  fair,  and  I have  never  heard  any  complaint  of  it  not  being  enough. 

Q.  We  have  heard  estimates  all  the  way  from  $8  to  $12,  in  the  places 
we  have  been.  What  would  you  say?  A.  The  minimum  wage  would  be 
all  right,  if  all  the  states  would  accept  the  same. 

Q.  You  manufacture  tin  cans?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I suppose  you  know  about  Beall  Brothers,  of  Alton,  Illinois?  A. 
Oh,  yes. 

Q.  I was  president  but  have  now  retired  from  the  active  manage- 
ment. A.  Yes,  I know  of  you,  Mr.  Beall,  in  connection  with  that  con- 
cern. We  have  done  quite  a lot  of  work  for  Oldin,  down  there. 

Q.  You  have  quite  a large  factory  here?  A.  Employing  about  185 
people. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  I think  the  answers  of  this  witness  have  been 
unusually  frank  and  fair.  I do  not  think  of  anything  else  to  ask. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  say  the  average  is  $9  a week,  or  rather, 
$8.75?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  for  apprentices.  What  scale  would  j'ou  want  to  pay  the 
apprentices?  A.  Well,  the  young  ladies  that  start  to  work  under  16, 
at  $4  a week,  and  over  16  years  of  age,  at  $5  a week. 

Q.  You  would  grade  them  according  to  the  ages  of  the  girls?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  would  you  have  the  scale  raised?  How  much  would  you 
raise  them,  in  a month,  or  two  months?  A.  We  do  not  raise  them.  M e 
put  them  on  piece  work  as  soon  as  they  want  to  go  on  it.  They  have 
the  preference. 

Q.  In  framing  the  bill,  j^ou  would  have  to  fix  specifically  the  amount 
and  how  long  it  would  be  before  they  could  be  raised.  A.  In  that  class 
of  work,  we  have  to  educate  them  from  thirty  to  sixty  days,  or  until 
they  would  be  sufficiently  capable  at  the  work  so  they  could  earn  probably, 
by  that  time,  a dollar  a day. 

Q.  Starting  at  five  dollars  a week,  in  thirty  days  they  could  be  raised 
to  six  dollars  a week?  Is  that  your  idea?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  thirty  days  more  they  could  be  raised  again,  to  what  figure? 
A.  In  30  or  60  days,  probably,  to  $7. 

Q.  Then  in  thirty  days  more  theA"  could  be  raised  to  eight  dollars?  A. 
Something  of  that  kind.  Of  course,  it  all  depends  upon  the  young  lady. 

Q.  We  have  to  fix  a scale,  of  course,  and  it  would  be  somewhat  arbi- 
trary in  its  specifications.  You  could  not  have  an  employe  as  an  ap- 
prentice, whom  you  would  keep  as  an  apprentice.  She  rvould  have  to 
graduate  out  of  that  class  some  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  session  of  the  Committee  now  stands 
adjourned. 

Whereupon  the  hearing  was  adjourned. 


SESSION  XI 


En  route  from  Springfield,  111.,  to  Washington,  D.  C.,  the 
Committee  visits  Harrisburg,  Pa.,  and  confers  with  Governor 
Tener  and  other  state  officials.  Proceeding  to  Washington  the 
Committee  waits  upon  the  President  of  the  United  States  and 
presents  a request  that  he  call  a meeting  of  state  representatives 
to  consider  the  enactment  of  uniform  state  laws  to  protect  Ameri- 
can womanhood.  Examination  by  the  Chairman  of  volunteer  wit- 
nesses who  appeared  before  the  Committee  at  a public  meeting, 
including — 

Mr.  Ardeen  Foster,  International  Commissioner  of  the  British 
Federation  for  the  Emancipation  of  Sweated  Women,  Girls  and 
White  Slave  Victims. 

Mr.  G.  Stanley  Finch,  Special  Commissioner  for  the  Suppres- 
sion of  White  Slave  Traffic,  Department  of  Justice,  United  States 
Government. 

Mr.  W.  W.  Husband,  United  States  Department  of  Labor, 
formerly  connected  with  the  United  States  Immigration  Com- 
mittee. 

Captain  J.  Thomas  Hollinberger,  Captain  of  Police,  City  of 
Washington. 

Mrs.  Adolph  Kahn. 

Mrs.  Archibald  Hopkins,  Chairman  Welfare  Department,  Dis- 
trict of  Columbia  Division  of  the  National  Civic  Federation. 

Mrs.  Virginia  Ransome. 

Mrs.  Harvey  W.  Wiley,  representing  the  Housekeepers’  Al- 
liance of  the  District  of  Columbia  and  the  Consumers’  League. 

Mrs.  Clara  Neligh,  Settlement  Worker. 

Hon.  Robert  P.  Hill,  Member  of  Congress. 

Dr.  William  G.  Woodward,  Health  Officer  of  the  District  of 
Columbia. 

Mrs.  A.  A.  Bimey,  President  of  the  Mothers’  Congress. 

Mr.  Robert  S.  Barrett,  testifying  for  Mrs.  Kate  Waller  Bar- 
rett, President  of  the  National  Florence  Crittenden  Mission. 

Dr.  Elnora  C.  Folkmar. 


Springfield,  111.,  March  20,  1913. 

The  Senatorial  Vice  Committee  at  11  :55  A.  M.  today,  left  for 
Washington,  to  confer  with  President  Wilson  for  the  purpose  of 
appealing  to  him  to  call  a national  conference  for  the  study  of  the 
“White  Slavery”  industry. 

The  members  en  route  were  Lieut.  Governor  O’Hara,  chairman ; 
Senator  Beall  and  Senator  Woodard. 

Chicago,  111.,  March  20,  1913. 

The  senatorial  comfiiittee  arrived  here  at  five  o’clock  P.  M.  and 
were  joined  by  their  associates,  Senator  Juul  and  Senator  Tossey. 

At  5 :30  the  committee  departed  for  Washington  on  a Pennsylvania 
train. 

Harrisburg,  Pa.,  March  21,  1913. 

The  committee  arrived  here  at  2 o’clock  P.  M.  and  were  received 
at  the  depot  by  a committee  composed  of  Hon.  George  E.  Alter, 
Speaker  of  the  House  of  Representatives  of  Pennsylvania ; Hon. 
Thomas  L.  Montgomery,  State  Librarian;  Mr.  Walter  H.  Gaither  and 


347 


348  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Mr.  William  D.  Grimes,  by  whom  the  members  were  escorted  to  the 
Senate  Hotel,  where  luncheon  was  served.  A little  later  the  committee 
visited  the  State  House  where  it  was  received  by  Governor  John  K. 
Tener.  The  members  of  the  comfmittee  were  presented  to  Governor 
Tener  by  Lieut.  Gov.  O’Hara.  The  chairman  of  the  committee 
explained  the  object  of  its  vi^t  and  a discussion  of  its  object  was  | 

freely  indulged  in.  The  governor  of  Pennsylvania  expressed  deep  | 

sympathy  with  the  movement  and  intimated  that  he  would  send  a i 

special  message  concerning  it  to  the  Senate  and  House  of  Repre- 
sentatives. At  5 :30  the  committee  left  for  AVashington. 

Washington,  D.  C.,  March  21,  1913. 

The  committee  arrived  in  this  city  at  8 :30  tonight. 

AVashington,  D.  C.,  March  22,  1913. 

The  members  of  the  committee,  by  special  arrangement,  visited  the 
W’hite  House  at  1 1 :50  A.  M.  to  confer  with  President  AAdlson. 

Congressman  McDermott,  of  Chicago,  accompanied  the  committee 
and  presented  Lieut.  Governor  O’Hara  to  the  president. 

Addressing  the  president.  Chairman  O’Hara  said  in  part:  Mr.  Presi- 
dent, this  committee  was  appointed  to  make  a study  of  the  problems 
confronting  our  womanhood.  We  earnestly  recommend  that  you  call  a 
meeting  of  representatives  of  the  different  states  to  discuss  the  matter  of 
uniform  state  laws,  and  also  perhaps  national  laws,  which  will  remove 
from  American  womanhood  some  of  the  menaces  which  that  womanhood 
now  must  face. 

This  meeting  we  respectfully  suggest  might  profitably  be  attended  by 
the  members  of  the  various  committees  which  have  been  appointed  and  are 
to  be  appointed  by  the  various  states,  and  we  would  like  to  have  it  called 
here  in  Washington,  some  time  in  the  fall  or  in  the  summer. 

Besides  the  members  of  the  committees,  this  conference  ought  to 
be  attended  by  the  governors  of  these  states,  as  well  as  by  delegates 
selected  by  these  governors,  and  by  the  mayors  of  all  of  our  important 
cities.  It  should  form  a national  commission  to  study  all  questions 
pertaining  to  vice. 

At  the  close  of  his  remarks  Chairman  O’Hara  presented  Senator 
Beall,  who  said : 

“I  spent  four  months  in  Europe  recently  studying  conditions  in  France, 
Holland,  Germany  and  Belgium,  and  I came  home  impressed  with  the 
idea  of  the  importance  of  this  problem.  Therefore  I offered  the  resolution 
which  created  this  committee.  I believe  in  womanhood,  motherhood  and 
anti-race  suicide. 

I know  of  no  one  in  this  country  who  is  in  a position  as  5-ou  are  to 
render  not  only  effective  assistance  in  this  direction  but  to  have  placed 
on  the  statute  books  legislation  that  will  promote  the  happiness  and 
guard  the  virtue  of  the  working  women  of  the  United  States.  We  have 
already  replies  of  thirty-two  governors  endorsing  our  motives,  and  I am 
convinced  if  you  call  the  meeting  suggested  by  Governor  O’Hara,  that 
the  whole  question  will  be  settled  in  the  interest  of  the  human  race.” 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  President,  I desire  to  present  Senator 
Juul,  the  Dean  of  the  Illinois  Senate. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  President,  the  first  thing  impressed  on  us 
was  the  advisability  of  making  this  matter  a nation-wide  moyernent.  If 
the  causes  are  studied  and  their  cures  applied,  only  in  Illinois,  it  would 
mean  a matter  of  injustice  to  that  state.  For  instance,  if  the  minimum 
wage  law  were  to  apply  only  in  Illinois,  it  would  be  an  injustice  to  our 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


349 


manufacturers  because  of  the  competition  of  the  states  where  they  have 
no  such  law. 

It  seems  to  me  that  one  thing  the  national  government  can  do  is  to 
establish  in  each  great  commercial  center  a home  where  women  can  be 
taken  care  of  when  they  cross  the  state  line  in  search  of  employment. 

The  government  takes  care  of  a pound  of  tobacco.  It  follows  the 
commodity  from  Kentucky  or  Virginia  across  the  state  line  and  even 
counts  the  number  of  cigars  made  out  of  that  pound  of  tobacco.  If  the 
national  government  can  devote  so  much  time  to  a pound  of  tobacco  or 
a pound  of  butterine,  it  surely  can  devote  some  time  to  the  protection  of 
womanhood  traveling  from  one  state  to  another. 

The  need  is  so  crying  that  if  we  were  to  attempt  to  tell  you,  Mr. 
President,  how  bad  it  is  as  shown  by  the  evidence  we  have  taken,  it 
would  almost  be  unbelievable.  The  impression  seems  to  have  arisen 
that  this  committee  is  studying  merely  the  question  of  wages,  but  such 
is  not  the  case,  I assure  you,  for  it  is  going  into  all  phases  of  the  vice 
problem.  The  greater  part  of  the  data  we  have  gathered  is  unprintable. 
It  reveals  conditions  so  horrible,  so  revolting,  that  most  of  the  states  need 
the  strong  arm  of  the  national  government  back  of  the  states  to  make 
any  remedy  effective. 

PRESIDENT  WILSON:  Gentlemen,  I appreciate  to  the  full  the 
gravity  of  this  question  and  if  you  will  be  so  kind  as  to  leave  with  me  the 
suggestions  you  have  made  in  either  printed  or  written  form,  I shall  give 
the  matter  the  fullest  consideration.  I thank  you. 

Senator  Beall  then  handed  to  the  president  the  resolution  which 
he,  Senator  Beall,  introduced  in  the  Senate  of  Illinois,  February 
4,  1913  creating  the  commission. 


Washington,  D.  C.,  Saturday,  March  22,  1913. 
The  Illinois  Senatorial  Vice  Committee  met  at  two  o’clock  P.  M., 
on  the  Mezzanine  Floor  of  the  New  Willard  Hotel.  Present:  Lt. 
Gov.  O’Hara,  chairman;  Senator  Niels  Juul  and  Senators  Tossey, 
Beall  and  Woodard. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  meeting  of  the  Illinois  State  Senatorial  Vice 
Committee  will  come  to  order.  Senator  Juul,  the  Dean  of  our  State 
Senate  and  the  attorney  for  the  committee,  will  explain  our  purpose  to 
those  who  have  honored  us  with  their  presence  this  afternoon. 

•Whereupon  Mr.  Juul  outlined  the  work  undertaken  and  the  results 
achieved  and  contemplated  by  the  committee.  He  concluded: 

“One  of  the  large  employers  who  was  subpoenaed  before  this  com- 
mittee stated  that  the  moment  we  try  to  establish  a minimum  wage  for 
the  manufacturing  interests  in  Illinois  we  will  isolate  Illinois,  drive  the 
manufacturing  interests  out  of  Illinois,  and  he  turned  around  to  the 
committee  and  said.  ‘You  cannot  do  this  unless  you  make  it  a national 
movement.’  So,  ladies  and  gentlemen,  we  started  out  in  our  little  inno- 
cent Japanese  way,  trying  to  make  it  a national  movement  if  we  can. 
We  are  here  to  ask  you,  ladies  and  gentlemen  of  Washington,  to  help  us. 
We  called  on  the  eovernor  of  Pennsylvania  yesterday,  and  he  has  prom- 
ised to  heln  us.  Governor  O’Hara  has  communicated  with  most  of  the 
governors  in  the  country,  and  they  have  oromised  to  help  us.  Todav 
we  called  on  the  president  of  the  United  States  and  we  believe  he  will 
help  us. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Senator  Beall,  the  father  of  the  resolution 
creating  this  committee,  will  make  a statement. 

Whereupon  Mr.  Beall  explained  further  the  work  of  the  committee  and 
its  purpose  in  visiting  Washington, 


350 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  President,  ladies  and  gentlemen — I hav, 
now  passed  the  years  of  three  score  and  five,  and  I have  always  bee, 
a champion  for  women.  I believe  in  womanhood  and  motherhood.  1 
have  nine  boys  and  a pair  of  twin  daughters,  and  therefore  I believe  I 
am  prepared  to  talk.  My  greatest  anxiety  when  I was  first  married  forty- 
five  years  ago,  was  the  wish  and  will  for  my  daughters.  I wanted  them  to 
live  a virtuous  life  and  marry  good  husbands,  and  my  wishes  have  been 
fulfilled. 

Last  summer  I spent  four  months  in  Germany,  Holland  and  Belgium, 
investigating  the  question  of  good  roads,  vice  and  different  matters  per- 
taining to  those  countries.  I returned  home  fully  satisfied  that  foreign 
countries  were  doing  more  towards  the  protection  of  women  than  we 
are  doing  in  our  country.  This  resolution  that  the  governor  alluded 
to,  I offered  in  the  senate,  creating  a vice  committee,  or  white  slave 
committee. 

Ladies  and  gentlemen,  we  want  to  enlist  your  sympathy.  We  want 
to  enlist  your  friendship  and  your  help.  The  governor  has  received  some 
thirty-two  letters  from  different  governors  of  the  United  States  offering 
their  assistance.  We  hope  every  one  of  you  will  insist  on  your  people 
in  your  states,  in  your  country,  doing  something  to  further  this  cause. 

We  are  willing  to  lead  every  time,  to  do  all  we  possibly  can.  We  expect 
for  the  next  two  years  to  give  this  our  study,  our  time,  and  do  everj-- 
thing  we  can  to  promote  this  cause,  and  if  there  are  any  of  you  who 
want  any  private  interviews  with  our  committee,  we  will  be  glad  to  give  | 

the  time  to  you  and  tell  you  what  we  have  found  out. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  want  to  say  to  you,  ladies  and  gentlemen, 
that  this  committee  has  never  attacked  the  morality  of  the  American 
working  woman.  Our  investigation  has  shown  that  the  American  work- 
ing women  constitute  as  pure  a class  of  womanhood  as  the  world  has 
seen,  but  we  do  know  that  the  American  w'orking  woman  is  forced  to 
face  menaces  that  she  should  never  be  called  upon  to  face,  and  that  if  i 
America  is  to  be  a land  of  real  gallantry,  we  must  remove  those  menaces 
from  the  paths  of  the  American  working  girl. 

Mr.  Ardeen  Foster’s  Testimony.  i 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN.  | 

The  first  witness  today  will  be  Mr.  Ardeen  Foster,  international  j 
commissioner  of  the  British  Federation  for  the  Emancipation  of  Sweated  I 
Women,  Girls  and  White  Slave  Victims.  j 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  your  present  occupation? 

MR.  FOSTER:  I am  the  international  commissioner  of  the  British 
Federation.  Our  work  is  the  emancipation  of  sweated  women,  girls, 
and  white  slave  victims,  who  happen  to  be  such  as  the  result  of  starvation 
wages. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  As  such,  Mr.  Foster,  you  believe  that  there  is 
such  a condition  as  white  slavery? 

MR.  FOSTER:  Positively. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  believe  that  it  is  an  organized  business  or 
industry? 

MR.  FOSTER:  Speaking  from  the  London  end  of  it,  I know  that 
it  is  an  organized  industry,  for  the  simple  reason  that  we  have,  sad  to 
say,  in  our  midst,  over  two  thousand,  five  hundred  men,  that  is,  beings 
in  the  shape  of  men,  that  are  procurers,  and  men  who  live  upon  the  illegal 
proceeds  of  women.  I speak  of  London  alone. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  have  in  England  the  whipping  post  as  a j 
punishment  for  white  slavers?  I 

MR.  FOSTER:  Yes.  On  the  second  day  of  November,  the  House  ] 
of  Parliament  passed  one  of  the  greatest  laws  ever  engineered  through  | 

the  parliament  of  the  United  Kingdom.  L^pon  the  first  day  of  January,  | 

1913,  that  law  went  into  effect.  It  is  this:  Any  man  who  is  arrested  I 

and  convicted  of  living  on  the  illegal  proceeds  of  a woman  is  taken  | 


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351 


before  a magistrate,  and  upon  his  conviction,  his  back  is  bared,  and  he 
is  given  thirty  lashes.  The  punishment  has  already  been  dealt  out  to  quite 
a number  of  men,  and  I am  very  happy  to  say  it  is  having  a tremendous 
effect.  The  class  of  men,  1 am  also  proud  to  say,  with  very  few  exceptions, 
are  not  English-speaking  men,  but  they  are  foreigners  of  the  lowest 
type.  As  a result  of  this  flogging  law  or  the  Capps  law,  as  we  some- 
times call  it,  they  are  gradually  losing  their  hold  upon  the  white  slave 
and  becoming  less,  that  is  to  say,  a man  once  flogged  will  never  come 
back  for  a second  flogging. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe,  Mr.  Foster,  that  there  is  any 
direct  connection  between  low  wages  and  immorality? 

MR.  FOSTER:  I will  begin  in  this  way:  When  1 was  a reporter 
on  a certain  newspaper,  in  a certain  great  city,  1 had  a very  peculiar 
assignment  given  to  me.  During  the  course  of  a great  religious  revival, 
the  conductors  of  the  revival  set  aside  a week  for  fallen  women;  that 
is,  every  night  at  a certain  hour  the  fallen  women  were  to  come  to  that 
meeting,  which  they  did  attend  very  liberally.  The  newspaper  with 
which  I was  connected  assigned  me  to  interview  the  proprietresses  and 
the  inmates  of  every  house  in  this  great  city.  There  were  over  two 
hundred  houses  in  a certain  district.  I did  investigate,  I interviewed, 
and  I found  out  that  eighty  per  cent  of  those  people  owed  their  fall 
directly  to  starvation  wages.  That  was  my  first  investigation.  Down  in 
the  slums  of  London,  where  it  was  my  great  privilege  and  my  great  joy 
to  work,  sometimes  day  and  night  I found  that  at  least  sixty  per  cent 
of  the  fallen  women  of  the  United  Kingdom  owed  their  fall  to  starvation 
wages.  There  is  no  getting  back  of  that.  I went  right  down  into  the 
heart  of  the  thing,  and  I will  just  give  you  one  incident. 

Just  before  I came  away  from  London,  crossing  a bridge  from  the 
Surrey  side  over  to  Middlesex  side,  I saw  a woman  who  darted  out  and 
across  the  bridge  and  made  for  it  as  though  she  were  going  to  leap  off. 
I stopped  her  and  asked  her  what  she  was  doing  and  led  her  carefully 
away  towards  the  Queen  street  side.  I got  into  her  confidence,  and  found 
where  she  lived,  and  before  I quit  her  I found  that  she  was  making  about 
a pound  a week,  which  is  five  dollars.  On  that  pound  she  was  endeavor- 
ing to  support  an  invalid  father  and  mother  and  two  brothers,  one  of 
whom  she  was  trying  to  send  through  college.  She  told  me  she  was  driven 
to  this  act  of  desperation  through  the  fact  that  her  conscience  had  bitten 
her,  for  the  reason  that  in  order  to  keep  this  little  family  together  and 
from  starving,  she  had  been  the  mistress — pardon  me  for  speaking  so 
plainly,  but  I must  call  a spade  a spade — of  four  men  during  the  last  year. 
Now  that  is  one  example. 

In  going  around  from  place  to  place,  I find  these  women  on  the  streets, 
I find  them  in  various  places,  and  I never  fail  to  ask  the  question,  “What 
brought  you  here?”  Sixty  out  of  one  hundred  say,  “Starvation.”  To 
give  you  one  example,  a woman  with  twelve  children  and  a husband, 
down  in  the  east  of  London,  is  making  trousers  under  the  sweated  con- 
ditions of  two  pence  half  penny  a pair,  which  is  about  five  cents.  Out 
of  that  two  pence  half  penny,  she  must  pay  for  her  thread  and  cotton, 
and  that  brings  her  profit  down  to  about  two  cents.  The  consequence 
is,  that,  at  the  end  of  the  week,  this  woman  has  only  five  shillings  and 
sixpence  to  her  credit,  which  is  about  $1.12.  She  has  a beautiful  daughter  of 
about  19  years.  The  woman  said  to  me  just  the  other  night,  before 
I left,  “Suppose  I were  to  lose  my  little  business  here,  and  my  daughter, 
who  is  bringing  me  in  five  shillings  a week,  were  to  lose  her  position, 
one  of  us  would  be  obliged  to  go  out  on  the  street  and  sell  our  body.” 
It  is  a sequence,  they  speak  of  it  as  a sacrifice. 

I am  not  speaking  about  the  other  portion  of  humanity  which  we 
would  have  to  go  back  millions  of  years  to  reconstruct;  if  we  put  them 
on  the  right  path,  but  I am  speaking  of  the  direct  cause  of  sixty  per 
cent  of  the  white  slave  traffic. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  And  the  other  forty  per  cent,  to  what  do  you 
attribute  that?  What  are  the  other  causes  ending  in  white  slavery  or 
in  prostitution? 

MR.  FOSTER:  Well,  all  sorts,  disappointments,!  for  one  thing. 


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Twenty  per  cent  of  it  is  the  fault  of  the  man.  The  others  go  wrong  for 
various  reasons.  In  the  first  place,  not  alone  here  in  the  States,  hut 
in  England,  we  are  all  living  too  fast.  W’e  see  things  in  a wrong  light. 
The  women  wear  fine  clothes  and  the  poor  girl  goes  bj'  and  says,  “I  would 
like  to  have  a dress  like  that”  or  “a  bonnet*  or  a hat  like  that.”  That 
has  a great  deal  to  do  with  it,  and  then  of  course  there  is  a certain  per- 
centage of  humanity  whom  it  would  be  hard  to  control.  I will  not  go 
as  far  as  a doctor  told  me  in  New  York,  who  said  that  eighty  per  cent  of 
humanity  was  constructed  with  passions  which  would  lead  them  down,  but  I 
will  say  that  there  is  a percentage  of  humanity  which  would  go  wrong 
under  any  circumstances.  I think  I have  accounted  for  the  other  forty 
per  cent  as  near  as  possible. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  in  England  a minimum  wage  law? 

MR.  FOSTER:  A minimum  wage  law  in  England  came  in  applying  to 
the  men  in  1909,  but  I cannot  say  that  it  is  a success,  for  the  simple  reason 
that  the  law  which  governs  the  little  city  of  Leeds  would  not  govern 
London,  any  more  than  a minimum  wage  law  which  would  govern  Wash- 
ington would  apply  to  New  York.  I do  not  think  it  is  a success;  I mean, 
taken  w'holly.  Our  idea  of  that  minimum  wage  is  to  give  the  women 
enough  to  live  on.  For  example,  the  woman  with  twelve  children  would 
get  what?  For  instance,  what  would  a minimum  wage  of  twelve  shillings 
a week  amount  to  wuth  her  as  compared  to  the  woman  with  her  two 
children?  We  look  to  giving  that  woman  enough  to  live  on,  whether 
she  has  five,  seven  or  twelve  children.  Here  is  another  thing  to  contend 
with:  The  waistcoat  I have  on  cost  me,  at  my  tailor,  sixteen  shillings, 
which  is  $4.00.  I will  show  you  where  the  minimum  wage  would  not 
apply.  The  woman  who  makes  these  waistcoats  whom  I found  in  the 
east  end  of  London  gets  three  pence  for  making  it.  That  is  six  cents. 
There  is  another  woman  who  gets  three  pence  for  finishing  them  off, 
which  is  twelve  cents  all  together.  I asked  my  tailor  what  he  paid  for 
making  the  waistcoat,  and  he  said,  “That  woman  has  been  in  m\'  father’s 
family  and  mine  for  years,  and  we  pay  her  four  shillings,  six  pence, 
which  is  $1.12.”  I said,  “What  is  the  recognized  wage  which  the  manu- 
facturer pays  to  the  sweater  or  to  the  contractor,  or  whoever  it  may  be, 
who  takes  this  work  out?”  He  told  me  $1.12,  and  I found  that  that  rule 
applied.  The  sweater  was  getting  one  dollar  clear  profit  on  every  one 
of  these  garments.  That  woman  makes  that  waistcoat  for  three  pence,  but 
when  sbe  goes  to  get  the  work  she  will  find  in  the  same  building  three  or 
four  other  women.  The  sweater  will  say  to  her,  “How  much  will  you 
make  these  waistcoats  for?”  One  woman  will  saj-,  “I  will  make  them 
for  four  pence,”  which  is  eight  cents.  Another  woman  will  say,  “I  have 
two  children  more  than  you,  I will  make  them  for  three  pence.”  Another 
woman  will  say,  “I  will  make  them  for  two  pence.”  So  they  bid  each 
other  down. 

SENATOR  JULIL:  Would  a prohibition  of  the  sweating  system 
help?  Would  the  prohibition  of  sub-letting  prevent  this?  ? 

MR.  FOSTER:  That  is  what  we  are  trying  to  do.  The  minimum 
wage  should  apply  to  the  women.  It  does  apply  to  a certain  degree 
amongst  the  men  for  the  reason  that  their  labor  is  perfectly  organized. 
The  British  Federation  is  endeavoring  to  abolish  that  sweated  condition 
and  at  the  same  time  abolish  a large  percentage  of  white  slavery  by 
taking  the  younger  girl  who  assists  the  mother  in  making  trousers,  match- 
boxes, brushes  and  waistcoats,  and  other  things,  and  take  those  girls  out 
of  their  sweated  conditions  into  a training  horne  which  we  have  aud  turn 
those  girls  to  doing  anything  thej'  like,  serving,  nursing,  millinery  and 
dressmaking.  Now  the  mother  or  the  grandmother  are  too  old  to  go 
as  servants  or  dressmakers  or  to  learn  a new  trade.  Where  they  have 
been  making  trousers  for  two  pence  and  half  penny  a pair,  or  where 
they  have  been  making  ten  thousand  match-boxes  for  ten  shillings,  where 
they  have  been  making  brushes  and  knocking  out  five  shillings  a week, 
or  waistcoats  and  knocking  out  five  shillings  a week,  we  take  those  people 
with  their  respective  trades  and  put  them  into  the  co-operative  work, 
so  that  they  receive  just  as  much  through  our  co-operative_  plan  as  they 
would  if  they  were  to  receive  the  wage.  Now,  I say  this  simply  for  the 


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353 


reason  that  factory  work  for  all  of  these  people  would  be  harder,  pos- 
sibly because  they  are  a class  of  people,  in  the  first  place,  who  never 
have  worked  in  factories  and  their  homes  require  them.  That  is  the  way 
we  get  rid  of  that.  Therefore,  I say,  the  minimum  wage  would  not 
apply. 

Mr.  G.  Stanley  Finch’s  Testimony. 

G.  Stanley  Finch,  Special  Commissioner  for  the  Suppression  of  White 
Slave  Traffic,  was  then  summoned  to  the  witness  stand. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  1 would  prefer  to  have  Mr.  Finch  relate  his 
own  story.  Kindly  tell  your  story  in  your  own  way,  Mr.  Finch. 

MR.  FINCH:  As  Special  Commissioner  of  the  Department  of  Jus- 
tice, it  is  our  effort  to  suppress  the  interstate  traffic  in  women  for  im- 
moral purposes.  The  work  of  the  department  is  based  on  what  is  known 
as  the  White  Slave  Traffic  Act,  which  makes  it  a crime  for  anybody  to  in- 
duce a girl  or  woman  to  go,  or  to  transfer  a girl  or  woman  from  one 
state  to  another  for  an  immoral  purpose.  In  order  effectively  to  enforce 
this  law,  it  was  very  early  found  that  it  was  necessary  to  take  extraor- 
dinary measures.  Ordinarily,  as  you  doubtless  know,  laws  are  enforced 
by  running  down  complaints  and  prosecuting  anyone  found  guilty  of  violat- 
ing the  I’aw  about  whom  a complaint  has  been  made,  but  owing  to  the 
very  large  number  of  men  who  were  found  to  be  engaged,  professionally, 

' you  might  say,  in  the  business  of  procuring  women  and  girls  for  houses 

■ of  ill-fame,  the  number,  amounting  to  thousands,  in  all  parts  ot  the  country, 
it  was  found  necessary  to  adopt  a special  system,  a system  that  we 

[j  might  reasonably  hope  to  be  effective,  and  consequently,  the  depart- 
ment has  undertaken  to  take  up  effective  work  in  every  city  in  the  United 
' States  where  a house  of  ill-fame  is  located.  Already  this  work  has  been 
extended  to  over  two  hundred  and  fifty  cities.  In  every  one  of  those  cities 
,|  we  have  a representative  who  keeps  track  of  the  arrival  of  new  inmates 
I at  houses,  and  in  every  case  where  a girl  goes  into  a house  of  ill-fame, 

I the  matter  is  inquired  into  very  carefully  to  see  whether  or  not  she  has 

■ been  brought  from  some  other  state  in  violation  of  the  white  slave  law. 
!*  Thus  far  we  have  sent  to  the  jails  and  penitentiaries  over  five  hundred 
; men  in  all  parts  of  the  United  States. 

We  have,  in  common  with  the  work  of  keeping  track  of  these 
arrivals,  secured  the  names,  descriptions  and  other  data  regarding  over 
L twenty-five  thousand  of  these  women,  and  I am  now  preparing  forms 
I for  the  purpose  of  collecting  information  regarding  the  manner  in  which 
these  women  were  led  into  immoral  lives,  and  in  a few  months  we  expect 
i to  have  a very  complete  statement  as  to  the  causes  which  have  actually 
: led  to  immorality  on  the  part  of  these  women.  Thus  far,  however,  our 
: work  of  collecting  data  has  been  confined  to  the  business  of  collecting 
I information  as  to  violations  of  the  white  slave  law.  From  this  data, 
1;  most  valuable  information  can  be  obtained,  but  the  information  relates 
'i  primarily  to  the  manner  in  which  the  girl  is  procured  by  the  white  slave 
: trafficker,  and  in  many  cases  does  not  show  the  cause  which  led  to  her 
F immorality  in  the  first  instance.  For  the  same  reason,  the  connection 
\ between  the  minimum  wage,  to  which  reference  has  been  made,  and  the 
, white  slave  traffic,  cannot  clearly  be  shown  by  these  statistics  that  are 
J available  in  cases  which  we  have  prosecuted.  We  are  now  preparing 
' complete  statements,  which  I hope  to  have  published  and  available  for 
' distribution,  as  to  the  facts  in  every  one  of  these  more  than  five  hundred 
white  slave  cases.  As  far  as  we  can  make  any  deductions  from  the  facts 
; in  the  cases,  gathered  from  the  evidence  given  in  the  trials  of  the  cases, 
; it  does  not  appear  with  any  large  percentage  of  these  girls  that  the 
' crime  would  have  been  prevented  by  a minimum  wage.  As  a matter  of 
^ fact,  in  so  far  as  we  know  of  the  information  concerning  these  victims  in 
. These  white  slave  cases,  the  greater  percentage  seems  to  come  from 
1 domestic  employment,  girls  who  work  in  homes  and  who  work  in  res- 
i'  taurants  and  hotels.  There  are  a few  who  come  from  factories  and  some 
|i  few  from  stores,  but  comparatively  few  of  the  victims  in  those  cases,  in 
so  far  as  our  records  show  the  facts,  come  from  employment  of  that 
kind. 

i One  fact  about  these  cases  is  the  very  large  percentage  of  victims 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


who  are  the  wives  of  the  procurers.  In  looking  over  one  hundred  cases 
this  morning  for  the  purpose  of  getting  some  statistics  in  my  mind,  I 
found  that  in  seventy-five  per  cent  of  these  cases,  the  victims  were  the 
actual  or  the  supposed  wives  of  the  white  slave  traffickers. 

As  a matter  of  fact,  the  common  method,  the  general  method,  you 
might  say,  through  which,  and  the  most  effective  method  by  far,  the 
procurer  gets  his  victim  today,  throughout  the  entire  country,  is  through 
the  promise  of  marriage  or  through  the  actual  marriage  ceremony,  and 
in  a very  large  percentage  of  cases,  the  girls  are  courted  and  married  in 
a perfectly  legitimate  manner  and  taken  away  from  home,  and  then,  by 
a process  of  threats,  abuse,  beating,  starvation,  and  by  actual  force  and 
confinement  in  rooms,  they  are  reduced  to  a condition  where  they  first, 
involuntarily,  and  later,  voluntarily,  sell  their  bodies. 

Of  course,  there  are  a very  large  number  of  persons  engaged  in  this 
traffic  in  this  country.  We  have  estimated  the  number  at  25,000  men.  i 
I think  the  estimate  is  conservative.  Thus  far  we  have  the  records  of  i 
possibly  fifteen  hundred  of  these  men,  and  we  have  barely  touched  the  i 
surface.  We  do  not  expect  to  convict  all  of  these  white  slave  traffickers. 

I am  glad  to  say  the  work  of  the  government  in  attempting  to  enforce  ] 
the  white  slave  traffic  act  is  resulting  in  a very  great  decrease  in  the  traffic  i 
in  women.  i 

It  has  already  resulted  almost  absolutely,  in  the  destruction  of  the  | 
nefarious  practice  we  found  when  we  started  our  work,  of  holding  girls  i 
for  debt,  that  being  an  offense  against  the  Federal  law,  or  violations  of  j 
the  peonage  law,  and  we  have  been  able  to  stop  that  practice  to  a very 
large  extent  in  practically  all  of  the  cities  where  our  work  has  been  in- 
stalled. Likewise  the  practice  of  confining  girls  in  rooms  and  holding 
them  absolutely  against  their  wall  as  slaves  has  been  largelj"^  stopped 
in  those  cities.  We  have  so  far  extended  our  work  through  all  states 
east  of  the  Mississippi,  with  the  exception  of  the  New  England 
states,  and  to  Arkansas  and  Missouri.  We  have  not  yet  undertaken  any 
work  in  New  York  City  or  Chicago,  for  the  reason  that  the  funds  available 
for  this  w'ork  have  not  been  sufficient  to  undertake  that  at  the  present 
time. 

We  are  hopeful,  however,  that  the  next  Congress  will  provide  funds 
sufficient  to  extend  this  work  clear  to  the  Pacific  Coast,  and  also  to  enable 
us  to  undertake  some  important  work,  which  is  necessary  in  New  York, 
Chicago,  Boston,  and  some  of  the  larger  cities. 

MR.  H.  MARTIN  WILLIAMS:  What  percentage  do  your  investi- 
gations show  girls  that  have  come  from  the  rural  districts  or  sections? 

MR.  FINCH:  We  find  a very  considerable  number  from  the  rural 
districts.  In  most  cases  where  girls  come  from  the  rural  districts 
they  are  led  into  immorality  through  the  promise  of  marriage,  through 
actual  engagement  and  a trip  to  the  city  wdth  a promise  that  the  mar- 
riage ceremony  will  take  place  when  they  reach  the  city..  Frequently 
those  cases  are  brought  to  our  attention,  and  I should  say  that  the  greater 
part  of  the  girls  w'ho  come  from  the  rural  districts  are  procured  in  that 
way,  or  through  advertisements  w'hich  promise  lucrative  employment  in 
the  city. 

Unfortunately,  there  is  no  federal  law  which  makes  it  a crime  to 
use  the  United  States  mail  for  spreading  false  advertisements  through 
the  mail,  promising  lucrative  emplojnnent  to  girls,  and  thus  inducing 
them  away  from  their  homes,  although  there  is  a statute  which  makes 

it  an  offense  for  using  the  mails  for  the  purpose  of  defrauding  people 

of  their  money. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  laws.  Mr.  Finch,  would  you  recommend 
to  the  respective  states  as  state  laws  that  would  strengthen  your  national 
work  in  this  line? 

MR.  FINCH:  Along  that  line,  I might  say  that  we  have  compiled  for 
the  use  of  our  white  slave  officers  in  those  250  cities,  all  of  the  laws 
of  the  different  states  which  relate  to  crime  against  immorality  and  every 

white  slave  officer  is  furnished  a copj'  of  all  the  laws  in  these  states. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


355 


Some  of  the  states  have  excellent  laws,  and  others  have  laws  that  are 
very  defective. 

Whenever  one  of  those  officers  learns  of  a violation  of  the  state 
law,  it  is  his  duty  to  bring  it  to  the  attention  of  the  officials  and  aid 
them,  and  in  that  way  we  have  secured  a lot  of  convictions  under  the 
state  laws.  There  are  a number  of  laws  that  are  necessary  in  these 
states.  In  speaking  of  this,  I will  have  to  use  plain  language,  and  to 
call  them  by  their  proper  names. 

In  the  first  place,  most  states  have  a law  prohibiting  adultery,  pro- 
viding a serious  penalty  for  adultery.  Some  few  states,  for  instance, 
Maryland,  have  no  law  of  that  kind  worthy  of  the  name.  In  Maryland 
the  maximum  punishment  for  adultery  is  ten  dollars.  There  should  be, 
in  my  opinion,  a very  strict  law  on  that  subject,  especially  for  the  reason 
that,  as  I have  said,  it  is  a comon  practice  for  men  to  marry  their  victims 
and  then  drive  them  into  this  form  of  slavery.  Comparatively  few  states 
have  any  law  making  fornication  a crime.  Maryland  has  no  law  what- 
ever on  the  subject,  and  some  other  states  are  lacking  in  that  respect, 
whereas  in  a few  states  the  crime  involves  a penitentiary  punishment. 

It  seems  to  me  that  there  should  be  a law  covering  this  matter  in 
every  state.  The  crime  of  seduction  is  not  ordinarily  covered  in  an 
effective  manner  by  the  different  state  laws,  and  I have  some  very  vicious 
and  very  pitiful  cases  of  young  girls  that  are  brought  to  our  attention, 
and  are  constantly  being  brought  to  our  attention,  where  deception  and 
fraud  of  all  kinds  is  practiced  on  the  young  girl,  but  where  it  is  impossible 
to  punish  the  man  who  is  guilty  of  the  crime. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Are  there  any  of  those  cases  in  Illinois? 

MR.  FINCH:  I do  not  recall  any  case  of  that  kind  in  Illinois. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  have  not  investigated  into  the  matter  of 
vice  as  connected  with  low  wages?  MR.  FINCH:  Not  especially;  no, 
sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  that  a girl  receiving  seven 
dollars  a week,  and  finding  that  she  cannot  purchase  the  necessities  of 
life  for  less  than  eight  dollars  a week  is  as  well  fortified  to  resist  temp- 
tation as  a girl  receiving  twelve  dollars  a week? 

MR.  FINCH:  Certainly  not.  The  low  wage  has  at  least  an  indirect 
bearing  on  the  white  slave  traffic,  as  well  as  the  social  evil. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  do  you  define  an  indirect  bearing?  Do 
you  not  call  that  a direct  cause? 

MR.  FINCH:  To  my  mind,  the  direct  cause  of  the  social  evil  and  the 
white  slave  traffic  is  not  twenty  per  cent,  but  ninety  per  cent  the  fault  of 
the  man.  It  is  due  to  the  fact  that  while  the  girls  get  a small  wage, 
the  men  make  a large  wage.  Possibly,  in  a somewhat  light  vein,  I might 
say  we  might  have  a very  effective  way  of  dealing  with  the  problem  of 
the  social  evil  that  would  be  a sort  of  correlative  of  tbe  minimum  wage, 
if  we  had  a maximum  wage  or  maximum  expenditure  for  men.  The 
trouble  is  that  men  not  only  have  a wrong  attitude  towards  women, 
and  a wrong  disposition,  but  they  have  so  much  money  with  which  to 
tempt  the  women.  If  a woman  receives  a seven  dollar  wage,  and  has 
only  a small  amount  of  money  for  dress,  she  might  be  tempted  by  a 
man  who  has  a comparatively  small  income  and  can  spend  a compar- 
atively small  amount,  but  if  she  receives  more  than  twelve  or  fifteen 
dollars  a week  she  will  get  better  clothes,  and  still  there  is  the  man 
who  has  one  hundred  dollars  or  five  hundred  dollars  a week  to  spend,  and 
he  will  tempt  that  girl. 

Until  we  can  educate  the  men  to  appreciate  the  enormity  of  the 
offense  of  which  they  are  guilty,  and  the  fact  that  they  are  offenses  against 
the  criminal  statute,  against  society,  that  should  not  be  tolerated,  we  will 
have  a problem  before  us  in  the  social  evil  regardless  of  what  the  w’age 
is  for  women. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  do  you  think  about  the  institution  of 
the  whipping-post  as  a punishment  for  the  crime  of  seduction? 

MR.  FINCH:  In  a great  many  of  these  white  slave  cases,  it  is  my  own 


356  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


private  opinion — other  people  may  not  agree  with  me — that  hanging  is 
not  any  too  good  for  them.  In  many  cases  it  is  certainly  merited,  be- 
cause the  offender  is  guilty  of  the  crime  of  rape  for  which  the  punishment 
is  hanging,  in  many  states,  and  so  far  as  the  punishment  by  whipping  is 
concerned,  I think  that  in  many  cases,  it  would  be  very  beneficial.  I 
would  not  want  to  say  the  laws  I have  mentioned  are  the  only  laws 
necessary,  but  I know  the  time  is  too  short  to  go  into  the  full  list  of  all 
laws. 

MRS.  OWEN  KILDARE:  I would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Finch  if  he  has 
formulated  any  reason  as  to  why  so  many  of  the  women  who  are  house- 
workers  enter  the  white  slave  traffic. 

MR.  FINCH:  If  I had  time,  I could  give  3'^ou  an  illustration.  It  is 
hard  to  give  a reason  for  that  in  a few  words.  In  the  cases  where  we  know 
the  real  facts,  it  is  due  to  the  fact  that  the  girl  who  is  in  the  home  is 
apart  from  her  fellows,  and  is  more  easily  subject  to  temptation.  We  have 
numbers  of  cases  where  young  girls  are  acting  as  nurses  or  waitresses, 
and  if  they  are  nice  looking  girls,  they  attract  some  one  connected  with 
the  household  and  through  the  display  of  money,  or  furnishing  of  rnoney, 
or  the  offers  or  favors  of  different  kinds,  the  girl  is  sometimes  seduced,  and 
in  that  way  is  led  astray  and  eventualh"  is  driven  into  a house  of  ill-fame. 
Then,  of  course,  the  girls  who  work  in  houses  are  not  so  well  educated  as 
the  girls  who  work  in  stores,  and  I think  in  factories,  too;  and,  being  more 
ignorant,  they  are  more  easily  the  victims  of  the  white  slave  traffickers.  I 
do  not  know  whether  that  answers  the  question  satisfactorih^ 

W.  W.  Husband,  of  the  Department  of  Labor,  was  the  next  witness. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  investigated  the  industrj'^  of  the  white 
slave  traffic? 

MR.  HUSBAND:  Formerly  I was  connected  with  the  United  States 
Immigration  Committee,  which  did  make  an  investigation  of  the  importa- 
tion of  women  for  immoral  purposes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  That  report  has  been  published? 

MR.  HUSBAND:  That  report  was  presented  to  Congress  in  Decem- 
ber, 1909.  The  work  was  directly  under  the  supervision  of  Professor  J.  W. 
Jenks,  then  of  Cornell  LTniversity,  and  I had  to  do  with  it  simply  as  the 
executive  secretary  of  the  Commission.  I will  say  that  whatever  j'ou  may 
find  in  this  report  is  vouched  for  as  to  its  accuracJ^ 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Further  than  what  is  in  this  report,  j'ou  have 
nothing  to  say? 

MR.  HUSBAND:  Further  than  Avhat  is  in  this  report  I would  not 
qualify  as  a witness. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you  for  appearing 
before  us.  I will  now  call  Captain  Hollinberger. 

Captain  J.  Thomas  Hollinberger’s  Testimony. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  your  occupation?  CAPT.  HOLLIN- 
BERGER: Captain  of  Police. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  In  the  District  of  Columbia?  CAPT.  HOLLIN- 
BERGER: Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  in  segregation?  CAPT.  HOL- 
LINBERGER: Yes.  As  long  as  these  women  want  to  lead  that  life,  I 
do;  yes,  sir.  In  the  sporting  district  in  my  precinct,  there  is  no  woman 
allowed  unless  she  is  a known  sporting  woman.  A woman  cannot  come 
into  that  district  under  twentj"-one  A^ears  of  age,  and  she  has  to  be  knoAvn. 
If  a Avoman  is  forty  years  of  age,  and  neA^er  lias  been  in  sporting  life,  she 
cannot  go  doAvn  there. 

THE  CHAIRAIAN:  Before  she  can  become  an  inmate  of  a house  in 
Washington,  she  must,  prior  to  that  time,  haA^e  been  a sporting  AA'oman  in 
some  other  city?  CAPT.  HOLLINBERGER:  Most  all  of  the  inmates 
here  are  inmates  from  other  cities. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Hoav  many  houses  have  you  in  the  city?  CAPT. 
HOLLINBERGER:  We  hav-e  about  fifty-tAvo. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Hoav  many'  inmates?  CAPT.  HOLLIN* 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  357 

BERGER:  Possibly  340  or  350.  The  inmates  here  go  from  one  house  to 
another.  They  move  about. 

. THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  what  they  call  the  booking  system 
here — that  is,  where  you  keep  the  name  and  record  of  every  girl  that  is  an 
inmate  of  one  of  those  houses?  CAPT.  HOLLINBERGER:  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  does  that  system  work  out?  CAPT.  HOL- 
LINBERGER: We  depend  largely  upon  the  Department  of  Justice,  the 
white  slave  department.  I am  hand  in  glove  with  the  Department  of 
Justice.  All  I keep  is  a record  of  the  girls  in  the  houses.  The  keepers  of 
these  houses  have  to  notify  me  if  they  leave,  and  where  they  go  to. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  would  you  say  the  houses  in  the  district  are 
recruited?  CAPT.  HOLLINBERGER:  They  go  from  house  to  house,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  would  not  increase  the  number?  CAPT. 
HOLLINBERGER:  No;  the  houses  are  being  decreased. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I suppose  that  perhaps  unfortunate  women  die 
even  faster  thafi  ordinary  mortals.  From  whence,  would  you  say,  comes 
I the  supply?  CAPT.  HOLLINBERGER:  That  is  a hard  question  to 

I answer.  There  are  girls  who  come  here  from  time  to  time.  In  fact,  prior 
to  the  inaugural  period,  there  were  fifty  or  seventy-five  girls  who  came 
here.  They  were  turned  down.  We  would  not  allow  them  to  enter. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Where  did  these  girls  come  from?  _ CAPT. 

; HOLLINBERGER:  The  sporting  districts  in  other  towns.  For  instance, 
a good  many  came  from  New  York  and  Chicago. 

MARTIN  W.  WILLIAMS:  I understood  the  witness  to  say  that  the 
Police  Department  kept  a record  of  the  number  of  inmates  of  houses  of 
ill-fame.  Will  he  be  kind  enough  to  tell  us  what  the  records  show,  and 
what  number  of  inmates  are  in  the  houses  of  Washington  city?  CAPT. 
HOLLINBERGER:  The  number  of  inmates  in  the  houses  in  my  district 
'are  between  three  hundred  and  forty  and  three  hundred  and  fifty,  and  there 
are  fifty-two  houses.  In  1900,  I suppose  there  were  about  one  hundred  and 
ten  or  one  hundred  and  fifteen  houses,  and  the  inmates  were  probably  more 
than  double  what  they  are  now. 

MARTIN  W.  WILLIAMS:  The  decrease  is  a little  over  half?  CAPT. 
HOLLINBERGER:  Yes. 

R.  O.  E.  DARNELL:  Do  you  keep  a list  of  the  patrons?  CAPT. 
HOLLINBERGER:  I do  not. 

MRS.  VIRGINIA  RANSOME:  Do  you  think  that  that  would  be 
ljust  as  effective  as  keeping  a list  of  the  inmates?  CAPT.  HOLLIN- 
: BERGER:  No;  the  police  force  would  not  be  large  enough. 

II  Mrs.  Archibald  Hopkins’  Testimony. 

Mrs.  Archibald  Hopkins  was  then  summoned.  As  Chairman  of  the 
I Welfare  Department  of  the  National  Civic  Federation  of  the  Washington 
Section,  she  told  of  efforts  to  improve  housing  conditions  particularly,  “and 
: we  feel  that  is  a subject  which  is  very  closely  allied  to  this  problem,”  she 
said,  “that  the  more  you  can  improve  the  conditions  under  which  girls  and 
women  live,  the  easier  it  will  be  for  those  girls  and  women  to  lead  proper 
lives.” 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Then  you  believe  that  the  condition  of  wages  has 
something  to  do  with  vice?  MRS.  HOPKINS:  I think,  given  the  fact 
: that  the  girl  lives  in  a nice  home,  with  a room  of  her  own,  and  with  the 
decencies  of  life  in  every  way,  she  is  more  likely  to  live  a good  life  than  the 
girl  who  lives  in  a slum,  tenement  or  some  hovel  in  an  alley  where  people 
are  sleeping  promiscuously,  with  no  bath,  no  privacy,  and  nothing  which 
, tends  to  keep  a woman’s  standards  up.  Yes;  I think  so,  in  that  sense. 

’ SENATOR  JUUL:  Have  you  formed  an  idea  of  what  would  be  the 
; minimum  amount  of  money  which  a young  girl  who  works  for  a living, 

■ either  in  a store  or  factory,  has  to  have  in  order  to  live  well,  morally  and 
decently?  MRS.  HOPKINS:  I believe  it  has  been  said  nine  dollars  would 
' be  about  right  in  Chicago  and  about  the  same  amount  in  New  York,  but  it  is 
less  here.  I think  you  can  live  rescectably  here  on  $7.80,  or  something  of 
that  sort. 


358 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Then  a young  woman  with  a salary  of  about  five 
dollars  a week  is  short  about  two  dollars  and  eighty  cents? 

MRS.  HOPKINS:  The  theory  of  the  shopkeepers  here  is  that  they 
will  not  take  anybody  who  does  not  live  in  her  own  house,  on  those  wages, 
of  four  and  five  dollars  a week.  A girl  is  taken  on  that  pay  only  on  the 
condition  that  she  lives  in  her  own  home. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  regard  good  housing,  in  a sense,  as  a 
means  to  good  morals?  MRS.  HOPKINS:  It  would  improve  the  morals,  i 
although  it  might  not  make  a bad  person  good.  If  conditions  were  im- 
proved, it  would  make  people  more  self-respecting,  and  raise  their  stand- 
ards. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Good  housing,  in  a way,  is  dependent  upon 
money?  MRS.  HOPKINS:  It  does  require  money — yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  trace  a connection  between  low  wages 
and  immorality,  between  a reasonable  living  wage  and  a higher  moral 
condition? 

MRS.  HOPKINS:  Possibly.  But  I know  a great  many  people  whose 
morals  are  not  concerned  with  money.  I know  very  little  about  the  mini- 
mum wage  and  I never  talk  about  things  I do  not  know  about,  but  I doubt 
whether  the  minimum  wage  question  is  going  to  make  the  whole  world 
good.  I think  there  should  be  education  in  the  schools,  no  matter  at  what 
cost,  at  a high  standard.  I think  there  is  a tremendous  field  for  education 
in  the  Boy  Scout  Movement.  I think  the  best  of  people  of  the  present  day 
are  more  or  less  prone  to  put  their  children  in  charge  of  irresponsible  people 
or  under  the  charge  of  people  who  will  not  give  them  the  proper  educa- 
tion morally.  Much  of  the  evil  that  comes  into  a child’s  mind  comes 
through  that  channel  and  I think  all  universities  should  hawe  a chair  of 
hygiene  to  teach  young  men  what  this  all  means.  I do  not  want  to  criti- 
cize mothers,  but  1 think  the  trouble  is  that  the  bars  which  were  up  so 
strong  and  high  in  my  youth  when  we  always  stood  in  the  presence  of  our 
fathers  and  mothers  and  called  them  “Honored  Sir,”  and  so  forth — I think 
the  reaction  from  that  has  been  so  tremendous  that  it  has  gone  off  on  the 
other  side,  and  it  has  gone  too  far.  There  is  too  much  liberty  and  too 
much  license.  I think  all  of  this  automobiling  has  its  bad  effect.  I think 
there  is  too  much  license  in  general. 

It  may  seem  a little  hard  for  one  mother  not  to  allow  her  daughter  to 
do  what  the  other  girls  do,  but  I think  in  many  cases  it  is  better.  As  some 
one  said  the  other  day,  you  never  hear  anybody  talk  now  about  prin- 
ciples. In  my  generation,  people  talked  about  whether  a girl  or  a man  had 
high  principles.  You  do  not  hear  much  about  that  now. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Times  have  changed,  madam,  since  you  and  I 
were  young. 

MRS.  HOPKINS:  Yes.  I want  to  speak  of  the  good  influence  that 
is  being  exercised  here  in  the  settlement  houses.  \Ve  have  four  of  them — 
the  Noel  House,  Neighborhood  House,  Friendship  House,  and  the  Colored 
Social  Settlement.  There  are  a certain  amount  of  pleasant  amusements  for 
the  young  people  and  they  play  the  proper  kind  of  games.  Thej’-  can  dance, 
but  they  must  dance  modestly.  They  can  have  amusements,  but  they  are 
of  the  innocent  kind.  The  home-keeping  and  the  oversight  of  the  young 
people  is  very  rigidly  enforced, ^and  it  has  had  a noticeable  effect  in  all 
communities  where  the  settlement  houses  exist. 

Mrs.  Adolph  Kahn’s  Testimony. 

Mrs.  Adolph  Kahn  was  the  next  witness. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mrs.  Kahn,  you  are  interested  in  club  work  in 
this  city?  MRS.  KAHN:  1 have  been  for  a great  many  years  and  have 
been  interested  in  work  for  girls,  foreign  girls  particularly.  From  my 
observation  I believe  that  most  of  the  girls  who  work  in  the  stores  are 
moral  girls  and  I believe  that  the  proper  training  of  young  boys  to  make 
them  strong  and  healthy  and  to  have  the  right  idea  and  to  have  the  proper 
respect  for  their  mothers  and  sisters,  is  the  paramount  thing.  I also  believe 
that  it  is  a question  of  resistance.  It  is  a question  of  not  being  able  to 
withstand  temptation.  I believe  if  a girl  is  properly  trained  in  her  home  up 
to  the  age  of  sixteen,  there  is  very  little  difficulty  after  that  time.  I think 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


359 


very  few  girls  go  wrong  because  they  have  not  fine  clothes;  I think  it  is  a 
matter  of  temptation  only.  I think  it  is  a matter  of  being  pursued  and  not 
being  able  to  stand  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  think  that  a girl  getting  $5  a week  and 
finding  that  she  cannot  possibly  live  on  less  than  $6,  is  as  strongly  fortified 
against  temptation  as  the  girl  who  is  getting  six? 

MRS.  KAHN;  I believe  the  matter  is  not  of  great  enough  significance. 
Perhaps  I am  expressing  myself  wrongly,  but  I have  seen  girls  who  worked 
for  $5  a week  exist  and  I believe  they  are  just  as  strong  morally  or  stronger 
than  girls  who  get  $8  or  $10.  I believe  that  the  eight-hour  law  has  more 
to  do  with  it  than  the  wage,  and  I believe  helpful  recreation  is  the  biggest 
thing  to  do  with  it.  I do  not  believe  the  minimum  wage  is  the  solution  by 
any  manner  of  means.  I believe  the  poor  girl  has  a great  deal  more  resist- 
ance very  often  than  the  girl  who  has  money. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I believe  that  the  matter  of  the  desire  to  with- 
stand temptation  is  as  great  in  the  poor  girl  as  it  is  in  the  rich  girl,  and 
possibly  more.  You  say  you  do  not  think  that  the  minimum  wage  has 
anything  to  do  with  her  resisting  temptation? 

MRS.  KAHN;  I do  not  make  it  that  sweeping.  I said  I do  not  believe 
it  is  the  paramount  thing. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  do  you  think  is  the  paramount  thing? 

MRS.  KAHN:  Training  in  the  home  up  to  the  age  of  sixteen  and 
training  the  boys. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  to  become  of  girls  getting  three  and 
four  dollars  a week  in  wages? 

MRS.  KAHN:  The  girls  I have  worked  with  in  Washington  are 
foreio'ii  girls  who  have  no  homes,  in  a great  many  cases.  They  come  from 
abroad  and  our  organization  gets  the  records  of  them  from  the  ports  and 
we  undertake  to  look  after  them  for  a period  of  two  years.  They  come 
here  and  work  for  very  little  money  to  start  on,  and  when  they  do  not  get 
enough  they  simply  make  sacrifices  and  get  along  the  best  they  can. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  It  would  not  be  fair  to  compare  the  for- 
eign girls  with  our  own.  MRS.  KAHN:  I do  not  know  that  there  is  any 
reason  why  not.  The  foreign  girl  is  under  greater  disadvantage. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  But  the  conditions  under  which  they  are 
raised — do. you  think  that  would  make  a difference?  MRS.  KAHN:  In 
what  way? 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Different  environments,  for  one  thing. 
MRS.  KAHN:  Thei^  require  food  and  lodging.  They  do  not  know  our 
habits. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  I think  abroad  they  are  often  submitted  to 
deprivations  that  they  do  not  have  here.  Is  not  that  so?  MRS.  KAHN:  I 
do  not  know  any  reason  why  our  girls  cannot  stand  just  as  much  sacrifice 
as  a foreign  girl. 

JULIAN  PIERCE;  Mrs.  Kahn  referred  to  the  alleged  fact  that  a 
girl  who  worked  on  low  wages  became  very  tired  when  night  came  and 
when  she  went  home  she  was  ready  to  go  to  bed.  Would  it  not  be  advis- 
able to  make  the  stores  increase  the  working  day  to  twelve  hours,  so  they 
would  all  get  tired  and  get  home? 

MRS.  KAHN:  I said  that  proper  recreation  is  a great  thing  and  I 
also  think  the  eight-hour  law'  is  a greater  thing  than  the  higher  wage.  I 
do  not  say  they  would  get  tired  and  go  to  bed.  I said  the  girls  make  their 
small  wage  and  go  home,  probably,  and  there  is  not  the  attraction  probably 
for  those  who  pursue  them  because  they  have  not  the  attractive  clothes, 
as  have  some  of  the  girls  who  have  the  higher  wage. 

MRS.  VIRGINIA  RANSOME:  I would  like  to  ask  the  lady  if  any  of 
her  immediate  family  are  connected  with  any  mercantile  firm  in  this  city 
which  has  to  do  with  the  hiring  of  women  and  girls  in  its  employ. 

MRS.  KAHN:  Not  my  immediate  family.  I happen  to  have  very 
close  friends  and  I know  that  in  Washington  the  condition  of  many  of 
the  girls  in  stores — if  that  is  what  you  are  speaking  of — is  not  at  all  de- 


360 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


plorable.  I mean  I have  investigated  and  the  only  place  I found  where 
girls  have  unpleasant  surroundings  and  small  pay  are  in  the  few  small 
tailor  shops  and  pants  factories,  but  they  have  mostly  moved  to  Baltimore. 

JULIAN  PIERCE:  As  to  there  not  being  deplorable  conditions, 
are  you  not  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  investigation  of  the  United  States 
Department  of  Labor  relative  to  the  conditions  of  women  employes  in  the 
laundries  and  in  the  stores  in  Washington  shows  that  the  condition  is 
deplorable? 

MRS.  KAHN:  As  a matter  of  opinion,  I happen  to  have  investigated 
a few  women.  I know  some  of  the  laundries,  and  I could  name  them, 
that  I consider  the  conditions  very  good  indeed.  I have  personally  investi- 
gated some  of  them,  and  it  may  be  a matter  of  opinion. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  think  that  the  employer  has  any  moral 
responsibility  for  the  employe?  MRS.  KAHN:  Certainly. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  that  if  any  employer  gave  a girl 
less  money  than  she  could  live  upon,  or  paid  her,  as  we  express  it,  below 
the  bread  line,  and  the  girl  went  wrong  as  an  indirect  result,  that  the  em- 
ployer would  have  anything  to  pain  his  conscience? 

MRS.  KAHN:  I might  say  only  recently  I had  a little  conference  with 
one  of  the  gentlemen  who  was  at  the  head  of  one  of  the  largest  department 
stores  in  New  York  and  he  has  been  giving  away  millions  for  various 
charitable  enterprises.  I asked  him  why  he  did  not  pay  his  girls  enough 
in  the  first  place,  so  that  they  could  save  enough  money  and  use  it  for 
themselves,  rather  than  give  it  away  afterwards.  I do  believe  that  employers 
are  responsible  in  every  way  for  those  that  are  under  their  care,  just  the 
same  as  the  schools  are,  and  other  organizations. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Madam,  I wish  to  ask  one  more  question,  on 
the  matter  of  moral  responsibility.  Do  you  think  that  the  employer  who 
has  in  his  employ  girls  who  are  getting  wages  below  the  bread-line,  has 
any  moral  right  to  give  away  to  outside  charities  large  sums  of  money? 
MRS.  KAHN:  I do  not. 

MRS.  RANSOME:  Do  you  know  that  one  of  the  most  generous 
proprietors  on  Seventh  Street  pays  his  girls  less  than  $2.50  a week?  kIRS. 
KAHN:  I do  not  know  of  any  such  place  myself.  Sometimes  those 
figures  are  not  exactly  correct,  and  you  will  find  that  true  in  a great  many 
cases. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  is  the  low-est  wage  that  you  have  heard 
being  paid  to  any  woman  worker  in  Washington?  MRS.  KAHN:  I know 
some  girls  in  the  ten-cent  stores  get  $3  a week. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  do  they  live?  MRS.  ICAHN:  Most  of 
them  live  at  home.  A girl  who  does  not  live  at  home  cannot  w'ork  for  that 
amount  of  money. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  becomes  of  those  girls?  They  have  to 
live.  MRS.  KAHN:  I might  remind  you  that  kir.  Finch  said  a great 
many  girls  who  w'ent  wrong  are  in  domestic  service.  It  is  not  a question 
of  board  or  food  with  them,  but  it  is  a question  of  temptation.  I have 
rather  made  up  my  mind  that  it  is  absolutely  wrong  to  connect  the  tvage 
wdth  vice,  and  I think  it  might  lead  to  such  a condition  as  this,  that  if  you 
give  girls  $9  a w’eek  they  would  go  on  a strike  and  sa3%  “If  j^ou  do  not 
give  us  $12  we  cannot  live  properly  and  we  will  all  go  wrong.” 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  said  that  you  did  not  believe  there  was  any 
salary  in  Washington  as  low  as  $2  or  $2.50  a week,  I believe?  kIRS. 
KAHN:  No;  I did  not  say  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Except  they  were  bundle  wrappers?  MRS. 
KAHN:  I said  they  might  be  bundle  wrappers. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Now,  I want  to  know,  do  not  the  women  of 
Washington  think  that  the  morality  and  the  life  of  a bundle  wrapper  or 
the  life  of  the  girl  in  the  five  and  ten-cent  store  is  as  valuable  to  this  nation 
as  that  of  any  other  girl? 

MRS.  KAHN:  I do  not  think  the  question  of  moralit}"  has  anything 
tp  dp  with  it,  although  I do  think  a minimum  wage  is  a fine  thing  and 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


361 


should  be  had.  I think  it  is  the  question  of  ability  to  withstand 
temptation. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Can  you  withstand  the  temptation  on  $2.50  a 
week?  MRS.  KAHN:  Yes,  sir  If  the  home  training  is  right,  I would 
say  yes 

SENATOR  JUUL:  If  the  home  is  in  no  condition  to  add  to  that 
deficit  which  is  needed  to  make  up  a living  wage — and  you  say  there  are 
women  in  Washington  working  for  $2.50  a week  or  possbly  $2  a week — 
what  is  the  way  out  of  it? 

MRS.  KAHN:  Such  a girl  might  go  into  domestic  service  and  that 
would  solve  the  question  for  her.  It  is  not  essential  that  the  girl  who 
cannot  earn  more  than  $2.50  a week  should  go  into  a store.  If  she  is 
worth  more  the  proprietor  will  gradually  give  her  more.  All  merchants 
are  looking  for  good  help. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Then  you  believe  there  are  women  who  are 
entitled  to  less  than  what  it  takes  to  feed  them,  clothe  them  and  house 
them.  In  other  words  you  do  not  figure  on  the  mere  fact  that  she  is  a 
living  human  being  and  that  she  is  entitled  to  clothes,  food  and  shelter? 
MRS.  KAHN:  Yes,  but  it  does  not  make  it  obligatory  for  a merchant 
to  pay  her.  It  is  only  obligatory  for  him  to  pay  her  what  she  earns. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Who  decides  that?  MRS.  KAHN:  The  mer- 
chant. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  if  he  decides  she  is  only  worth  one-third 
what  it  takes  to  feed  her,  that  is  what  she  gets,  irrespective  of  what  be- 
comes of  her?  MRS.  KAHN:  Those  are  only  exceptional  cases. 

Mrs.  Virginia  Ransome’s  Testimony. 

Mrs.  Virginia  Ransome  was  then  summoned  to  the  witness  stand. 

MRS.  RANSOME:  Mr.  Chairman,  I did  not  expect  to  testify  and 
I never  testified  before  in  my  life,  but  I had  a friend  who,  winter  before 
last,  told  me  the  story  of  a family,  that  the  man  had  left  his  wife  and 
three  children.  The  woman  had  gone  into  a laundry  to  work  for  a very 
small  sum,  possibly  four  or  five  dollars  a week,  and  she  could  not  possibly 
support  those  three  children  on  that.  She  had  one  little  girl  14  years  of  age 
working  for  $2  a week.  The  girl  of  course  swore  that  she  was  15  and 
it  made  no  difference  to  her  employer  if  she  had  been  10,  as  long  as 
she  swore  that  she  was  16. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  He  did  not  investigate  her  statement?  MRS. 
RANSOME:  No,  of  course  not.  My  informant  found  out  this  family 
through  the  Associated  Charities  and  she  told  the  mother  of  the  child 
if  she  would  take  her  from  the  store  she  would  give  her  $2  a week 
out  of  some  private  fund  of  her  own,  so  she  could  stay  at  home  at  night 
and  be  home  during  the  day  and  look  after  the  two  small  children,  have 
her  mother’s  dinner  hot  when  she  came  home  at  night  and  keep  the 
house  tidy  so  her  mother  could  keep  her  strength.  She  asked  me  if 
I would  give  a pint  of  milk  a day  to  the  little  girl,  who  was  not  well, 
and  I said  I would.  The  milk  man  at  that  time  was  charging  me  at  the 
rate  .of  4 cents  per  pint.  She  did  not  know  that  I was  furnishing  the 
milk  and  he  charged  the  woman  five  cents  a pint.  That  shows  you  that 
they  take  advantage  of  them.  The  child  is  now  working  at  another  store 
— Kahn’s,  I believe — for  $2  per  week. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  If  Congress  should  authorize  the  appointment 
of  a committee  similar  to  this  committee,  with  power  to  investigate  the 
wage  conditions  in  the  District  of  Columbia,  would  you  furnish  that 
committee  with  the  name  of  this  girl  working  in  the  city  of  Washington 
for  $2  a week?  MRS.  RANSOME:  I can  furnish  it  at  any  time.  Yes, 
sir.  I can  find  it  out  even  now  over  the  telephone,  if  the  woman  is  at 
home  because  she  gave  them  $2  a week  for  about  two  years  and  they  lived 
down  in  South  Washington  below  the  Agricultural  Department.  I know 
another  store  where  small  girls  are  paid  $3  a week. 

SENATOR  JULIL:  You  stated  this  p'irl  worked  for  $2  a week  in 
Washington,  D.  C.?  MRS.  RANSOME:  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  know  what  the  mother  was  receiving 
in  the  laundry  where  she  was  working?  MRS.  RANSOME:  I might 


362  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

be  wrong,  but  I think  it  was  $5,  but  sometimes  on  Saturday  she  had  to 
work  from  seven  o’clock  in  the  morning  until  ten  o’clock  at  night. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  other  members  of  the  family  were  there? 
MRS.  RANSOME:  Two  little  girls. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Four  in  the  family?  MRS.  RANSOME:  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  the  combined  earnings  of  the  two  working 
women  were  $7?  M'RS.  RANSOME:  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  in  order  for  the  women  to  make  the  $7  a 
week  it  was  necessary  for  her  to  work  from  what  hour  in  the  morning,  did 
you  say?  MRS.  RANSOME;  She  started  to  work  at  7 o’clock  some 
days  and  she  got  off  earlier,  but  on  rush  days  she  would  work  until  9 and 
10  o’clock  at  night. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  To  the  best  of  your  knowledge  and  belief  that 
was  the  case  of  a family  of  four,  with  two  breadwinners  and  the  com- 
bined wages  were  $7  a week?  MRS.  RANSOME:  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  would  you  say  as  to  the  necessity  for 
a similar  committee  to  the  one  we  have  formed  in  Illinois  being  formed 
here  in  Washington.  Do  you  think  it  is  necessary  to  let  in  the  daylight 
on  the  wage  question?  MRS.  RANSOME:  Just  as  necessary  here  as  it 
is  in  Chicago. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  estimate  the  cost  of  living  for  a 
girl  in  Washington — the  lowest  you  think  she  could  live  for,  a girl  from 
16  to  18  years  of  age?  MRS.  RANSOME;  I do  not  see  how  she  can 
live  on  less  than  $7  or  $8  at  the  very  lowest. 

Mrs.  Harvey  W.  Wiley’s  Testimony. 

Mrs.  Harvey  W.  Wiley  was  the  next  witness. 

MRS.  WILEY:  I represent  the  Housekeepers’  Alliance  of  the  Dis- 
trict of  Columbia,  the  Consumers’  League  (District  of  Columbia  branch) 
and  the  Society  of  Suffrage.  The  District  Branch  of  the  National  Con- 
sumers’ League  stands  for  clean  and  healthful  conditions  of  work.  This 
league  is  about  twenty  years  old,  and  was  organized  in  about  1890.  There 
are  about  56  leagues  in  the  different  cities.  The  Washington  League  is 
only  a little  over  a year  old.  The  Consumers’  League’s  label,  placed  upon 
all  white-stitched  goods,  stands  for  obedience  to  factory  laws  in  the 
district  in  .which  the  factory  is  operated  and  that  no  children  are  em- 
ployed in  the  store  under  the  legal  age  in  that  state  and  that  the  work 
is  finished  on  the  premises.  That  is  the  great  point  for  which  we  stand. 
There  is  no  sweat-shop  work  bearing  the  Consumers’  League  label.  The 
work  is  done  under  clean  and  healthful  conditions  in  the  stores.  When- 
ever anyone  purchases  a Consumers’  League  article  they  are  sure  of 
those  four  conditions.  That  label  insures  right  conditions  in  the  factory 
where  the  goods  are  made.  The  League  also  stands  for  right  conditions 
in  the  store  where  the  goods  are  sold. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  laws  are  recommended  by  your  organi- 
zation? 

MRS.  WILEY:  The  National  Consumers’  League  stands  for  a 
limited  working  day,  and  in  the  last  session  of  Congress,  just  before  the 
closing  of  the  session,  the  National  League  had  drafted  the  bill  which, 
through  the  work  of  Senator ‘La  Follette  and  Mr.  Peters,  was  mtroduced 
in  the  House,  which  stands  for  the  eight-hour  day  in  the  District  of 
Columbia.  This  bill  was  favorably  reported  in  the  Senate  but  did  not  suc- 
ceed in  going  to  the  House.  We  hope  to  get  our  friends  to  reindorse 
it  in  the  next  Congress. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  vou  favor  a minimum  wage  law?  MRS. 
WILEY:  I do. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  think  there  is  any  connection  between 
low  wages  and  immorality?  MRS.  WILEY:  I am  not  prepared^  to 

speak  from  experience  in  this  matter.  I can  only  express  an  opinion. 
I do  believe  so. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  that  girls  fall  because  they  are 
not  paid  enough  upon  which  to  live?  kIRS.  WILE\  : It  is  more  dif- 
ficult to  resist  temptation  when  they  have  not  the  money  to  secure  proper 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


363 


conditions  of  life,  recreation,  clothing  and  the  necessities  of  life. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  believe  that  these  hardships  work  upon 
the  nervous  system  until  the  nervous  system  is  not  as  well  able  to  throw 
off  the  temptation?  MRS.  WILEY:  I am  not  prepared  to  speak  from 
experience.  This  is  my  opinion. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  do  you  think  are  some  of  the  other 
causes  that  lead  girls  to  go  astray? 

MRS.  WILEY:  I could  only  tell  from  what  I have  heard.  I have 
read  Mrs.  Adams’  splendid  book  on  “The  Ancient  Evil”  and  the  “New 
Conscience,”  and  it  states  from  domestic  service  a large  number  of  women 
enter  this  horrible  life.  I think  the  Housekeepers’  Alliance  has  a good 
work  ahead  to  educate  domestic  servants.  I think  if  this  is  done  in 
Chicago  perhaps  we  can  cut  down  the  supply  from  that  source.  In  addi- 
tion to  the  minimum  working  day  I believe  in  instruction  in  hygiene. 
In  addition  I believe  that  we  should  have  women  police  in  everv  city. 
Finally,  the  great  thing  for  which  I stand  is  votes  for  women.  I believe 
when  the  women  have  our  franchise  and  can  stand  with  the  good  men 
we  can  get  these  things,  we  can  raise  the  age  of  consent  and  make  it 
over  the  legal  age.  Now  a w'oman  cannot  vote,  but  she  can  give  away 
her  hodv. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  much  does  it  cost  a girl  to  live  in  Wash- 
ington— the  lowest  amount  she  can  exist  on?  MRS.  WILEY:  I would 
say  S8  was  the  minimum. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  vou  consider  that  any  emplover  who  pays 
girls  less  than  a living  wage  has  any  moral  right  to  give  large  sums  of 
monev  to  charity?  MRS.  WILEY:  I do  not. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  should  he  do  with  the  monev — that  por- 
tion he  gives  to  outside  charity — if  he  must  give  it  away?  MRS.  WILEY: 
I believe  that  his  nrofit  should  not  be  so  great.  I believe  if  a living 
wage  was  paid  to  his  employes,  his  profit  could  not  be  so  great. 

Mrs.  Clara  Neligh’s  Testimony. 

Mrs.  Clara  Neligh  was  then  summoned. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mrs.  Neligh.  vou  are  interested  in  Settlement 
work?  MRS.  NELIGH:  Yes.  Mr.  Chairman,  it  has  been  my  work  for 
six  years  in  Washington  to  help  protect  and  provide  for  the  girls  with 
whom  I have  come  in  contact  in  those  settlement  houses  as  well  as 
others  who  have  lived  at  further  range,  and  I have  done  most  of  my 
work  along  the  line  of  prevention,  in  keening  the  girls  from  getting  into 
the  condition  which  we  are  rliscrissing  this  afternoon.  We  have  tried 
at  all  times  to  raise  the  standard  of  living  in  our  neighborhood,  among 
the  girls  and  the  boi^s  as  v'ell.  I do  not  think  a girl  who  has  not  enough 
to  live  on  can  live  the  right  v’^av  nhvsicallv  or  morallv.  I do  not  think 
the  girl  who  lives  in  a crowded  house,  where  she  has  no  nrivacv  and 
no  room  for  her  rights,  can  be  whai  she  ought  to  be  and  can  be.  T think 
she  is  entitled  to  good  living  conditions. 

We  are  facing  changed  conditions.  The  girls  whose  recreation  is  in 
the  moving-picture  show,  iov  riding  and  rag-time  dancing:  thev  all  mean 
temptation  to  her.  I think  it  is  our  business,  if  we  are  going  to  see  our 
girls  taken  from  the  home  into  these  public  places,  to  make  those  places 
the  right  kind  of  places  for  the  girls  to  go  to.  I think  we  should  endeavor 
to  control  the  iov  ride  which  has  led  some  girls  to  temptation.  I do  not 
think  we  can  do  too  much  against  the  rag-time  dancing,  because  the  girl 
who  does  it  is  plaving  with  fire.  We  have  not  allowed  it  in  the  settlement 
hoiit;e  among  the  girls  in  mv  neighborhood  I have  had  more  trouble 
vritV.  these  society  girls  who  have  come  down  there  and  volunteered 
services. 

As  to  what  it  costs  a girl  to  live,  the  cheapest  place  I know  a girl  can 
find  a room  in  our  neighborhood  at  all  decent  is  iHI  2.S  a week,  that  is  fur- 
nished room  and  if  she  is  to  have  food,  which  will  nroperlv  nonrisli  her. 
it  costs  !li4,n0  a week  in  southwest  Washington.  That  makes  S'!. 2.1  for 
something  to  eat  and  a room.  Her  carfare  is  10  cents,  which  is  !tl.1.71. 
^or  a place  to  get  something  to  eat.  and  a means  of  going  back  and 
forth  to  her  work  and  a place  to  sleep,  it  has  amounted  to  $5.75.  Where 


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she  is  going  to  get  enough  for  recreation,  is  the  question  we  are  trying  to 
answer  today.  The  bare  necessities  of  life'  cost  more  than  two  dollars  a 
week,  two  dollars  and  a half,  or  even  three  dollars  a week,  according 
to  the  way  I want  girls  to  live,  who  are  going  to  live  the  right  way. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Has  any  organization  which  you  are  connected 
with  ever  approached  the  merchants  of  this  city  and  attempted  to  establish 
living  conditions  for  the  girls  working  there  irrespective  of  what  their 
home  conditions  might  be? 

MRS.  NELIGH:  Not  as  an  organization.  I know  some  individuals 
who  have  been  interested. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  the  women  of 
Washington  have  not  tried  to  reason  with  the  gentlemen  who  employ 
female  _ labor,  to  try  to  reach  them,  the  heart  of  them,  and  establish 
a condition  that  would,  as  a mere  matter  of  rights,  entitle  a woman,  or 
for  that  matter,  a man,  to  a sufficient  wage,  irrespective  of  what  the  home 
condition  may  be,  to  food,  clothing,  and  furnish  a bed  for  every  woman 
that  is  working,  irrespective  of  her  capacity,  on  the  basis  that  she  is  a 
human  being?  I ask  you  why,  as  a social  worker,  somebody  has  not 
started  a movement  of  that  kind?  MRS.  NELIGH:  I cannot  answer 
that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  think  that  would  be  a good  movement 
to  start  in  Washington?  MRS.  NELIGH:  I do. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I will  repeat  the  question  asked  Mrs.  Kahn 
in  order  that  I might  not  be  misquoted.  Sometimes  we  are  misquoted, 
and  I wrote  this  down.  Would  you  be  willing  to  join  the  starting  of 
an  organization  to  give  the  preference  in  your  trade  relations  to  such  mer- 
chants and  manufacturers  as  you  find,  upon  proper  investigation,  are 
using  humane  conditions  in  dealing  with  their  employes?  MRS.  NELIGH: 
I would. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  think  you  could  start  a movement  here 
of  going  to  merchants  and  saying  to  them,  it  takes  so  much  for  a young 
woman  to  live  on.  and  I think  your  figures  are  reasonable.  Now,  Mr. 
Merchant,  where  do  you  expect  that  young  woman  to  make  up  the  dif- 
ference? Do  you  think  you  could  have  somebody  help  you  start  that* kind 
of  an  organization?  MRS.  NELIGH:  Yes. 

MRS.  HOPKINS:  We  have  the  Children’s  Council,  the  Young  Men’s 
Christian  Association  and  the  Young  Women’s  Christian  Association  have 
also  done  it.  Miss  Helen  Taft  was  at  the  head  of  one  of  the  movements. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Just  a few  moments  ago  you  testified  that  you 
did  not  know  whether  wages  had  any  bearing  on  vice 

MRS.  HOPKINS:  I did  not  know  enough  about  it  to  talk. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Since  then  we  have  learned  that  there  are  young 
women  in  the  city  of  Washington  who  are  working  for  two  dollars  a 
week.  You  may  have  learned  the  trick  in  Washington  how  to  do  it, 
but  in  Chicago  we  have  not  learned  it.  We  have  come  east 
to  learn  it.  Here  is  a young  lady  who  has  worked  as  a social 
worker  and  she  has  not  learned  it.  If  you  have  not  learned 
how  to  live  on  two  dollars  a week,  and  the  girls  cannot  do  it,  then  the 
only  way  is  to  teach  the  merchants  how  to  pay  more.  You  ladies  either 
have  to  teach  the  girls  to  be  able  to  show  that  they  are  absolutely  living 
within  the  wage  they  are  getting,  or  the  merchants  will  have  to  pay  more. 

Mr.  Robert  P.  Hill’s  Testimony. 

Congressman  Robert  P.  Hill  was  then  called. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Congressman  Hill,  will  you  be  sworn  b}”-  Sena- 
tor Beall? 

(The  witness  was  thereupon  sworn  by  Senator  Beall.) 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  are  a resident  of  Illinois?  MR.  HILL: 
Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  From  what  district?  MR.  HILL:  Twenty- 
fifth  Illinois  district. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Hill,  we  have  heard  from  witnesses  ap- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


365 


pearing  here  before  this  Committee,  in  the  city  of  Washington,  that 
girls  are  being  paid  as  low  as  two  dollars  a week  for  their  services. 
The  Committee  has  no  jurisdiction,  of  course,  in  the  District  of  Columbia, 
but  a similar  committee  could  be  appointed,  we  understand,  by  the  National 
Congress,  with  jurisdiction  to  investigate  the  matter  of  vice  and  wages 
in  this  district.  As  a Congressman  from  our  State,  the  State  whose 
people  have  sent  us  here  to  conduct  this  investigation,  will  you,  at  the 
next  meeting  of  Congress,  introduce  a resolution  providing  for  the  ap- 
pointment of  a committee  to  investigate  low  wages  and  vice  in  the  District 
of  Columbia?  MR.  HILL:  I will  most  gladly. 

Dr.  William  G.  Woodward’s  Testimony. 

Dr.  William  G.  Woodward,  health  officer  of  the  District  of  Columbia, 
testified. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Will  you  give  the  Commission  the  benefit  of 
your  study,  observation  and  opinion  in  the  matters  within  the  scope  of 
our  inquiry? 

DR.  WOODWARD:  Such  study  as  I have  made  of  the  matter  of 
vice  among  women  has  been  brought  about  by  my  general  interest  as  a 
citizen  and  partly  by  my  interest  as  health  officer,  and  as  an  officer  of 
the  District  of  Columbia  who  has  charge  of  the  compilation  of  vital 
statistics.  I have  here  some  figures  that  may  show  something  as  to  the 
prevalence  of  vice  and  I think  may  show  something  with  respect  to  the 
extent  to  which  a minimum  wage  might  have  an  influence,  if  any.  The 
figures  I refer  to  are  figures  showing  the  number  of  illegitimate  children 
born  in  the  District  of  Columbia  and  legally  registered  at  the  health 
office  every  year.  Of  couse  these  cases  indicate  merely  cases  of  vice 
which  have  resulted  in  the  birth  of  a child.  They  can  be  accepted  there- 
fore merely  as  an  index  to  the  prevalence  of  vice,  we  might  say,  through- 
out the  community  generally.  There  were  born  in  the  last  calendar  year, 
1912,  and  reported  to  the  health  office  775  illegitimate  children,  that  is, 
births  and  still  births.  As  indicating  the  extent  to  which  that  represents 
the  prevalence  of  vice,  we  may  say  that  that  is  ten  per  cent,  to  speak 
accurately,  10.3  per  cent  of  all  reported  births.  The  figures  are  not 
materially  different  for  previous  years.  In  the  year  1911,  for  instance, 
it  was'  9.7  per  cent. 

There  is  a marked  depression  in  the  illegitimacy  with  respect  to  race 
that  I think  may  indicate  something  with  respect  to  earning  capacity, 
because  in  1912  of  all  the  births  and  still  births  reported  among  the 
white  people  2.3  per  cent  were  reported  as  illegitimate,  whereas  among 
all  births  and  still  births  reported  among  colored  children  23.1  per  cent 
were  illegitimate.  In  other  words,  practically  one  in  four  of  every  colored 
child  born  in  1912  was  frankly  reported  as  an  illegitimate  child.  It  stands 
to  reason,  I think,  that  there  are  some  illegitimate  children  born  among 
both  classes  of  population  that  are  not  reported. 

An  interesting  figure  with  respect  to  the  age  at  which  vice  begins 
is  shown  by  the  distribution  by  age  of  the  matters  of  these  illegitimate 
children.  The  figures  for  1912  are  not  yet  available  but  there  is  no  reason 
to  believe  that  they  vary  to  any  considerable  extent  from  those  for  previous 
years.  In  the  calendar  year  1911,  when  this  study  began,  three  children 
were  born  to  thirteen-year-old  mothers;  four  were  born  to  fourteen- 
year-old  mothers;  17  were  born  to  fifteen-year-old  mothers;  33  were  born 
to  sixteen-year-old  mothers;  49  to  seventeen-year-old  mothers;  54  to 
eighteen-year-old  mothers;  M to  nineteen-year-old  mothers  and  46  to 
twenty-year-old  mothers.  The  distribution  of  the  births  of  these  illegiti- 
mate children  with  reference  to  age-period  indicate  that  immoral  practices 
begin  well  before  the  earning  period.  Clearly  a minimum  wage  law 
would  not  save  these  thirteen-year-old  children.  We  have  had  one,  and 
I think  two  births  this  year  in  1913,  to  a twelve-year-old  mother.  That 
is  a case  that  is  quite  beyond  the  reach  of  the  minimum  wage  law  for 
niothers  and  the  same  thing  with  respect  to  the  question  of  wages  is 
indicated  with  respect  to  the  colored  people. 

I do  not  believe  there  is  any  reason  to  regard  the  colored  people  as 


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essentially  more  immoral  than  the  white.  Their  opportunities,  however, 
are  lower. 

We  have  never  had  occasion  here  to  take  up  the  matter  of  minimum 
wage,  but  as  I have  followed  it  in  the  daily  papers  and  as  I have  heard 
here,  the  question  of  minimum  wage  discussed,  it  has  appeared  to  me 
that  the  matter  of  wage  is  simply  an  index  to  the  circumstances  under 
which  the  employe  has  been  raised  and  under  which  the  employe  has 
been  allowed  to  live.  In  other  words,  an  index  to  the  physical  and  the 
moral  stamina  of  the  girl  and  we  may  say  also  the  young  man.  I do 
not  believe  that  a minimum  wage  established  and  fixed  by  law'  would 
materially  change  the  situation  unless  the  minimum  wage  could  be  fixed, 
not  in  dollars  and  cents,  but  with  respect  to  purchasing  power,  which 
we  know  varies  from  year  to  year  and  unless  it  might  be  fixed  with 
respect  to  the  particular  desires  of  the  recipients.  To  one  emploj'e  a 
minimum  wage  of  $7  might  seem  ample.  To  another,  w'hose  aspirations 
were  somewhat  different,  a minimum  wage  of  $15  to  $20  would  seem 
grossly  inadequate,  and,  as  Mr.  Foster  has  pointed  out,  there  are  variations 
with  respect  to  the  actual  needs  of  the  wage  earner.  So  it  is  hardly 
fair  when  it  comes  to  the  matter  of  the  $2.00  wage  to  say  that  is  a 
gross  injustice,  because  we  recognize  here  in  this  District  a certain  obli- 
gation on  the  part  of  parents.  A parent  is  under  the  obligation  to  support 
the  child  until  the  child  is  able  to  earn  a living  w'age. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  think  that  the  parent  is  under  that 
obligation  more  than  the  State? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  I am  glad  you  have  raised  the  question. 
The  thought  comes  in  this  w'ay  to  my  mind:  The  State  has  virtually 
taken  over  the  matter  of  education,  yet  under  our  present  system  of 
education  we  are  turning  out  thousands  of  children,  actual  graduates, 
who  are  not  able  in  the  market  of  labor  to  earn  enough  to  support 
themselves. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Should  not  the  State  undertake  to  see  that  all 
of  its  working  citizens  do  receive  the  equivalent  of  a living? 

DOCTOR  WOODVi'ARD:  Undoubtedly  the  State  should  see  that 
they  do  earn  enough. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Let  me  ask  you  a question.  Does  a girl  working 
for  $2  a week  come  from  a home  of  luxury  or  a home  as  poor  as  this  girl 
herself? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  She  comes  from  a home  presumably  as 
poor  as  the  girl  herself. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Then  is  it  not  the  duty  of  the  State  to  see  tha' 
she  gets  enough  to  support  herself  without  shifting  the  burden  on  the 
poor  home? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  It  is  the  duty  of  the  State  to  see  that  she 
gets  enough  by  taking  her  in  hand  and  fitting  her  to  get  enough.  Take  this 
very  problem  of  the  $2.00  girl.  Here  is  the  father  with  many  children  and 
it  may  be  he  desires  one  of  them  to  learn  some  particular  line  of  work  and 
earlier  than  he  possibly  desires  he  has  to  put  her  into  that  line  of  work. 
Then  she  goes  into  that  business,  receives  $2.00  a week  and  relieves  the 
father  of  just  so  much  of  the  burden  and  at  the  same  time  she  is  fitting 
herself  for  a larger  income.  Now,  if  the  state  can  take  hold  of  that  girl 
and  fit  her  for  earning  a larger  income  before  she  goes  to  work,  all  well 
and  good,  but  unless  the  state  can  do  that  before  she  goes  to  work,  clearly 
it  is  a matter  of  sound  reasoning  to  allow  the  father  to  put  her  into  that 
line  of  work  and  to  learn  to  earn  a little  to  help  along. 

SENATOR  WOODWARD:  In  other  words,  you  believe  in  a girl 
serving  an  apprenticeship? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  Yes.  When  it  comes  to  the  accumulatior 
of  enormous  dividends,  there  is  a different  way  of  getting  at  that,  rather 
than  by  saying  you  must  pay  a larger  wage,  it  seems  to  me  through  the 
taxing  power.  We  will  take  from  the  corporation  a certain  part  of  its 
proceeds  as  taxes  and  apply  that  to  an  improved  school  system  so  that 
w'hen  young  people  leave  the  school  they  can  go  into  the  world  prepared 
to  work. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


367 


THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  mention  about  the  money  raised  in  that 
method  being  applied  to  school  work.  I will  agree  with  you  if  you  will 
set  aside  a certain  amount  of  that  money,  not  for  the  erection  of  school 
buildings,  but  for  the  keeping  of  these  poor  children  attending  that  school. 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  The  trouble  is  with  our  system  it  does  not 
take  into  consideration  the  fact  that  that  child  has  to  go  out  and  be  taught 
some  particular  kind  of  work.  They  are  crowded  with  high  ideas  of  life 
which  are  not  necessities  and  the  child  has  no  direct  training  with  respect 
to  self-control  and  that,  after  all,  is  at  the  bottom  of  it.  We  have  to  teach 
the  child  self-control.  We  have  to  give  the  child  in  school  sound  ideals  of 
the  essence  of  life.  We  have  furthermore  to  fit  that  child  for  some  way  of 
earning  work  so  when  the  child  steps  from  school  it  can  step  out  into  the 
world  and  do  its  own  part.  There  is  another  factor  with  respect  to  the  mini- 
mum wage  that  has  not  been  touched  on  here  and  I do  not  believe  it  can  be 
ignored.  You  can  see  I am  not  an  advocate  of  a minimum  wage  law  at 
the  present  time,  but  if  minimum  wages  are  to  be  established  it  would 
certainly  be  essential  to  take  into  consideration  the  establishment  of  a 
minimum  wage  for  man,  because,  after  all,  as  we  have  heard  this  evening 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Would  that  be  constitutional? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  I understand  you  are  going  to  amend  the 
Constitution  to  get  the  other.  Your  minimum  wage  will  not  amount  to 
much  annually  until  you  prohibit  your  young  man  to  marry  before  he  is 
27,  28  or  29  years  of  age.  You  have  these  men  who  are  now  forced  by 
social  conditions  into  lives  of  celibacy,  who  are  subject,  as  all  human 
beings  are,  to  passion.  Formerly  they  married  at  the  age  of  21  or  22,  but 
now  there  is  that  increase  in  the  period  of  temptation  for  the  young  men. 
That  is  a thing  that  has  to  be  reckoned  with.  When  are  you  going  to 
do  away  with  this  90  per  cent  of  vice  that  occurs  at  the  instigation  of  men? 
We  have  in  both  cases  the  matter  of  education.  Men  and  women  have 
to  be  educated  with  respect  to  these  matters,  but  they  have  to  have  recrea- 
tion. You  cannot  say  to  any  one  man  or  to  any  one  woman,  “You  have 
to  put  these  immoral  ideas  away  from  your  mind.”  No  one  can  put  an  idea 
away  from  his  mind  until  he  can  put  another  idea  in  its  place  to  crowd  out 
the  former,  but  until  you  have  provided  for  these  poor  men  and  women 
recreation  and  ideas  that  will  crowd  out  the  immoral  ones,  you  will  not 
accomplish  very  much. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  believe  that  all  women  and  men  should 
undergo  a physical  examination  before  being  granted  a marriage  license? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  Theoretically,  I would  say  the  men  ought. 
Practically,  we  know  there  is  no  necessity  for  the  women.  But  as  we  clean 
up  the  men,  the  women  will  have  no  trouble.  The  w'omen  who  move  in 
good  society  and  are  afflicted  with  troubles  of  this  kind  get  them  in  wed- 
lock from  men  who  may  or  may  not  get  their  disease  out  of  marriage. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  From  your  study,  what  would  you  say  was  the 
percentage  of  men  whose  blood  is  not  untainted? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  The  figures  that  I know  of  that  come  most 
nearly  to  being  reliable  are  figures  that  are  collected  from  certain  hospital 
records.  We  see  many  general  statements  as  to  the  extent  to  which 
venereal  diseases  prevail  in  a community,  based  on  estimates.  It  is  well 
known  wTien  a patient  goes  to  a hospital  or  a dispensary  a clinical  state- 
ment is  taken  and  the  questions  are  asked  as  to  the  previous  existence  of 
those  venereal  diseases,  and,  under  the  authority  of  the  American  Fed- 
eration of  Sex  Hygiene,  I may  say  that  records  of  that  kind  of  a large  metro- 
politan hospital  show  that  approximately  fifty  per  cent  of  the  patients  in 
the  wards,  fifty  per  cent  of  the  men  admitted,  that  they  have  had  gonorrhea 
at  some  previous  time,  which  indicates,  of  course,  that  the  larger  percent- 
age has  actually  had  it  and  ten  per  cent  frankly  admitted  that  they  had 
syphilis.  That  shows,  of  course,  in  a general  w'ay,  somewhat  more  than 
ten  per  cent  is  afflicted  with  syphilis  and  somewhat  more  than  fifty  per  cent 
afflicted  with  gonorrhea. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  What  would  you  recommend  as  a State 
or  National  remedy?  How  would  you  go  about  this  as  a social  problem 
in  the  stamping  out  of  the  disease? 


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DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  We  know  that  the  places  for  unlawful 
sexual  intercourse  are,  as  I think  somebody  described  them,  simply  the 
morasses  from  whence  these  diseases  come.  We  have  to  do  what  we  can 
to  control  those  places  and  eliminate  them  as  rapidly  as  possible. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  To  control  them  by  law? 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  No.  I would  not  say  that,  because  I am 
not  sure  by  any  means  that  control  by  law  is  effectual.  I have  shown  you 
the  extent  to  which  illegitimacy  exists  outside  of  that  district.  That  does 
not  speak  of  what  has  been  accomplished  with  reference  to  control  by  law. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  I mean  control  of  those  places  you  are 
sneaking  of,  as  to  the  matter  of  hea:lth  and  not  morality. 

DOCTOR  WOODWARD:  That  is  a question  I am  not  prepared  to 
answer. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Would  you  say  that  the  city,  the  state  or 
the  nation  ought  to  step  in? 

DR.  WOODWARD:  I would  say  that  no  system  of  registering  the 
inmates  of  those  places,  and  no  system  of  medical  inspection,  so  far  as  I 
know  of  or  am  informed,  has  ever  yet  accomplished  anything.  On  the 
other  hand,  we  know,  of  course,  that  certain  prophylactic  remedies  that 
have  been  adopted  in  the  United  States  Army  and  the  United  States  Navy 
have  served,  beyond  question,  to  protect  the  men.  They  have  done  nothing 
for  the  women.  Whether  we  are  going  to  recommend  that  young  men  be 
instructed  with  respect  to  this  matter,  as  is  actually jdone  in  one  segregated 
district  in  a city  not  far  from  here,  I am  not  prepared  to  say.  It  is  a prob- 
lem, very  frankly,  I have  given  a good  deal  of  thought  to,  but  with  equal 
frankness  I say  I do  not  know  what  is  right  to  do.  The  whole  problem 
comes  down  to  a state  of  education  with  respect  to  efficiency  and  love,  and 
that  comes  down  to  what  are  the  essentials  of  life,  and  then  to  teach  the 
people  to  earn  their  own  living. 

Mrs.  A.  A.  Birney’s  Testimony. 

Mrs.  A.  A.  Birney  was  the  next  witness. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  You  are  the  President  of  the  Mothers’  Congress? 
MRS.  BIRNEY:  Yes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  kind  of  work  is  that  Congress  engaged  in? 
MRS.  BIRNEY:  I have  listened  with  a great  deal  of  interest,  this  after- 
noon, and  you  have  touched  this  question  from  a great  many  points,  but 
not  from  the  mother’s  point,  and  that  is  the  single  standard  of  purity.  When 
we  get  that,  we  will  solve  a good  deal  of  this  trouble  jmu  are  trying  to 
down.  The  Mothers’  Congress  have  been  very  much  interested.  We  have 
between  sixty  and  seventy  thousand  members  all  over  the  United  States, 
and  this  is  one  of  the  things  we  are  teaching  and  preaching.  It  must  be 
the  education,  not  only  in  the  school  and  in  the  state,  but  in  the  home, 
from  the  time  the  child  is  born.  One  gentleman  here  said  that  he  wanted 
his  daughters  to  be  pure,  good  women,  and  marry,  of  course,  pure,  good 
men.  We  must  have  that  standard.  We  cannot  get  along  without  it. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  are  we  going  to  do  it?  AIRS.  BIRNEY: 
By  teaching  the  mother  and  father  that  they  must  have  that  one  standard. 

THE  CHAIRAIAN:  Our  states  must  co-operate  with  our  mothers? 
AIRS.  BIRNEY : Of  course,  the  state  must  co-operate. 

THE  CHAIRAIAN:  How  can  the  state  best  co-operate?  AIRS.  BIR- 
NEY : I think  by  circulating  and  paving  the  way  straight  through  the  home. 
If  the  home  standard  is  high,  if  we  have  the  one  standard  there,  the  state 
Vill  soon  recognize  that  it  must  come  and  help. 

THE  CHAIRAIAN:  Why  is  it  that  our  American  girls  do  not  like 
to  go  out  into  domestic  service?  AIRS.  BIRNEY:  They  look  upon  it  as 
a degradation.  They  think  the  stores  with  the  low  wage  is  something 
because  they  can  be  independent.  The  Alothers’  Congress  is  trying  to  have 
the  schools  as  a social  center  at  night,  so  that  these  girls  who  are  working 
and  have  not  any  place  except  the  dance  hall  and  the  low  forms  of  amuse- 
ment to  attend,  that  they  can  come  into  these  schools  and  they  can  have 
the  right  kind  of  dancing  if  they  want  it.  They  can  have  any  form  of 
amusement,  but  it  will  be  of  the  right  kind.  There  will  always  be  some 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


369 


parents  and  teachers  there,  and  it  will  be  a club-house,  so  to  speak,  for  the 
working  girls. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  think  of  the  dress  of  the  girls 
twenty-five  or  thirty  years  ago  as  compared  with  what  we  have  on  the 
streets  today?  MRS.  BIRNEY:  I object  to  the  suggestive  patterns. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Are  the  mothers  to  blame?  MRS.  BIRNEY: 
We  come  back  to  the  mother  every  time  in  all  our  work.  I put  the  blame 
there. 

Mr.  Robert  S.  Barrett’s  Testh  tony. 

Robert  S.  Barrett  took  the  stand. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Mr.  Barrett,  you  have  a report  from  Mrs.  Kate 
Waller  Barrett?  MR.  BARRETT:  Yes,  sir. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  that -report  written  out?  MR.  BAR- 
RETT: No,  sir.  I have  to  deliver  it  verbally.  As  representing  Mrs.  Kate 
Waller  Barrett,  President  of  the  National  Florence  Crittendon  Mission, 
which  is  the  largest  institution  of  its  kind  in  the  United  States  dealing 
with  girls  of  the  character  which  you  are  now  investigating,  she  wished  me 
to  say  that  this  institution  has  78  homes  located  in  different  sections  of  the 
United  States,  that  it  has  under  its  care  at  the  present  time  over  3,000  girls 
and  1,500  children.  During  thf  thirty  odd  years  since  this  institution  was 
established  it  has  cared  for  more  than  20,000  girls;  that  permanent  records 
have  been  taken  of  all  these  girls,  and  that  the  statistics,  such  as  you  desire, 
are  at  your  disposal  any  time  you  may  wish  them. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Has  this  organization  ever  found  a connection 
between  low  wages  and  immorality?  MR.  BARRETT:  Mrs.  Barrett  de- 
sires me  to  say  that  that  is  one  of  the  last  reasons  that  she  believes  has 
any  bearing  on  immorality. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  If  that  is  the  last  reason,  what  is  the  first  reason? 
MR.  BARRETT:  A great  many  of  the  girls  are  brought  to  the  city,  or 
were  brought  to  the  city,  up  to  the  time  of  the  passage  of  the  Mann  Law, 
through  white  slave  agencies.  Other  girls  have  been  brought  to  the  city  by 
promises  of  marriage,  and  others  have  been  brought  to  the  city  to  obtain 
work,  either  domestic  or  in  stores  or  shops,  and  they  either  have  not  been 
able  to  find  work  or  have  gone  into  lives  of  ill-fame  because  it  was  the 
easiest  way. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  This  wmrk  is  supported  how,  by  private  con- 
tributions? MR.  BARRETT:  Both  private  and  state. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Can  you  name  me  the  largest  individual  con- 
tributor to  the  work  of  this  organization  during  the  past  year?  MR. 
BARRETT:  Of  course.  It  is  the  estate  of  Charles  S.  Crittendon,  a 
druggist  of  New  York,  who  died  leaving  $500,000  for  the  work.  The 
city  of  Washington,  I may  say,  contributes  approximately  $3,000  a year 
to  the  work. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Have  you  among  your  large  contributors  men 
who  employ  women?  MR.  BARRETT:  Not  to  a large  extent.  Some 
of  the  contributors  are  men  who  employ  women,  but  I should  say  we 
have  no  large  contributors,  that  is,  no-  contributors  over  $100  a year. 
The  most  of  the  contributions  to  the  Florence  Crittendon  work,  for 
instance  in  the  city  of  Chicago,  New  York,  Philadelphia  and  Boston, 
are  from  $5  to  $50.  A large  portion  of  the  money  is  raised  in  churches 
and  through  charitable  organizations.  Mrs.  Barrett  is  my  mother  and 
I am  interested  in  discussing  the  work  with  her  and  I am  also  editor  of 
her  various  publications  and  magazines.  She  wished  me  to  call  particular 
attention  to  the  fac.t  that  during  the  enforcement  of  the  Mann  Act  by 
the  United  States  authorities,  the  White  Slave  Act,  the  Florence  Crittendon 
Mission  has  cared  for  those  girls  who  are  turned  over  by  the  United 
States^  authorities.  In  Washington  at  the  present  time  we  have  four 
girls  in  the  Florence  Crittendon  Home  who  a week  ago  were  arrested 
in  our  little  town  of  Alexandria  across  the  river. 

I would  like  to  take  exception  to  the  statement  made  by  the  lieutenant 
of  police  to  the  effect  that  no  girl  is  allowed  in  the  District  of  Columbia 


370  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


except  those  who  are  known  to  have  had  past  records.  The  experience 
of  the  Florence  Crittendon  Mission  shows  that  that  is  not  correct.  Within 
the  last  year  I call  to  mind  two  cases,  one  a case  where  a mother  placed 
her  daughter  in  the  Florence  Crittendon  Mission.  The  girl  had  gotten 
into  trouble  in  a little  village  in  Virginia  and  her  mother  came  to  the 
Mission,  secured  possession  of  the  girl  by  tellinsr  them  she  was  going 
to  take  her  out  and  place  her  at  work  and  immediately  carried  her  into 
the  division  and  sold  her  into  white  slavery. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  The  mother  did?  MR.  BARRETT:  She  did. 
The  girl  was  brought  back  to  the  mission  and  the  woman  *was  sentenced 
to  several  years  in  the  penitentiary.  She  is  either  in  Leavenworth  or 
Atlanta. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  How  long  ago  was  that? 

MR.  BARRETT:  Within  the  last  year.  I can  get  the  facts  from 
Mr.  Einch  of  the  White  Slave  Bureau.  That  girl  was  taken  from  the 
home  by  her  mother  under  the  pretense  of  taking  her  out  to  work,  but 
instead  of  taking  her  out  to  work  she  placed  her  in  this  house.  The 
mission  has  a great  number-  of  cases  of  girls  who  come  from  all  sections 
of  Virginia  and  Maryland  into  Washington  and  the  great  work  the  mis- 
sion tries  to  do  is  to  get  hold  of  girls  before  the}'-  enter  these  houses, 
to  give  them  a place  where  they  can  live  and  try  to  start  them  on  the 
right  path  and  educate  them  along  lines  where  they  can  earn  their  own 
living.  At  the  present  time  they  have  girls  in  every  profession  of  life, 
stenographers,  bookkeepers,  doctors,  trained  nurses,  housekeepers  and  in 
practically  every  line  of  life. 

There  is  one  point  I would  like  to  bring  out:*  I would  like  to  ask 
the  Committee  a question  of  this  sort,  because  I know  there  are  some 
ladies  and  gentlemen  here  who  would  like  to  know:  If  a minimum  wage 
is  established  this  year  will  that  wage  be  changed  next  j-ear?  If  the 
high  cost  of  living,  as  it  were,  is  beine-  raised  }'-ear  by  year,  will  the 
same  minimum  wage  apply  now  that  did  five  or  ten  years  ago  or  will 
within  the  next  five  or  ten  years? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Any  man  who  has  studied  political  questions 
at  all  knows  that  the  cost  of  living,  as  expressed  in  dollars  and  cents, 
is  an  unknown  quantity.  We  do  not  talk  in  dollars  and  cents.  We  in- 
sist that  any  American  girl,  regardless  of  her  ability,  is  entitled  to  clothing, 
food,  a room,  a reasonable  amount  of  pleasure;  and  we  do  not  speak  of 
it  in  dollars  and  cents.  Now  I want  to  ask  you  a Question.  Your  organ- 
ization has  done  a lot  of  good,  but  your  organization  has  always  main- 
tained— your  representatives  we  have  talked  to,  at  least — that  there  is 
not  the  slightest  cennection  between  low  wages  and  immorality. 

MR.  BARRETT:  We  do  not  say  not  the  slightest,  but  the  Florence 
Crittendon  Mission  would  certainly  not  be  doing  right  to  the  great 
majority  of  working  women  throughout  this  country  to  sav  that  their 
wages  was  the  real  reason  why  they  went  into  vice.  The  Florence  Crit- 
tendon Mission  has  found,  by  absolute  statistics,  which  you  gentlemen 
can  examine  and  find  out.  that  there  are  just  as  many  society  women 
and  iust  as  many  girls  that  have  good  homes,  girls  with  high  wao'es, 
who  have  fallen  inmates  of  the  mission,  as  there  are  p-irls  who  have  fallen 
on  account  of  low  wages:  a far  greater  number,  and  if  you  will  go  to  the 
mission  and  investigate  the  statistics  themselves,  you  will  find  this  out. 

THE  CHAIRM.AN-  Can  you  furnish  those  statistics  to  this  com- 
mittee? MR.  BARRETT:  I haven’t  them  in  that  shape. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  sav  the  higher  the  wages  the  less 
morality?  MR.  BARRETT:  No;  I did  not  say  that. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  said  there  was  more  vice  among 
the  higher  wmge  girls  than  the  low  paid  ones.  AIR.  BARRETT;  _ I said 
just  as  much.  You  will  have  to  get  the  statistics  to  see.  You  will  have 
to  take  the  conclusion  as  we  follow  it  from  year  to  year  and  from  years 
of  experience  in  handling  these  girls. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  We  do  not  want  you  to  think  for  a moment 
that  we,  in  any  manner,  shape  or  form,  implv  that-  the  poor  girls  are  bad. 
but  in  our  investigations  the  girls  whom  we  talked  to  told  us — not  all 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


371 


of  them,  but  I will  say  three  out  of  every  five — that  low  wages  was  the 
cause  of  their  downfall.  You  disagree  with  the  girls,  do  you? 

MR.  BARRETT:  I can  only  tell  you  that  in  all  the  experience  of 
Mrs.  Barrett  in  rescue  work  for  30  years,  that  during  that  time  she  has 
had  from  25,000  to  30,000  girls  under  her  care.  She  spends  her  time  in 
traveling  from  one  state  to  another  and  she  makes,  as  far  as  possible, 
|,  the  personal  acquaintance  of  each  one  of  these  girls.  I am  not  giving 
; you  my  views.  She  is  not  able  to  be  here  and  I talked  the  matter  over 
“ thoroughly  with  her  and  she  made  it  very  clear  to  me,  that  so  far  as 
her  personal  experience  is  concerned,  so  far  as  the  several  hundred  em- 
ployed workers  and  matrons  of  Florence  Crittendon  Homes  over  the 
the  United  States  are  concerned,  who  are  dealing  with  girls  who  have 
gone  wrong,  that  there  are  very,  very  few,  a very,  very  small  percentage, 
who  come  and  say  that  they  have  been  brought  to  this  trouble  by  low 
wages. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I wish  to  ask  a question:  General  discussion 
shows  that  it  takes  about  $8  to  keep  a woman  afloat,  just  to  pay  the 
necessities  of  life,  it  does  not  make  any  difference  whether  it  is  $6,  $7  or  $8 
or  what  the  amount  is,  but  it  takes  a certain  amount  of  money.  If  we 
had  been  holding  this  session  at  home  today  in  our  own  state,  the  testi- 
mony would  have  been  given  under  oath.  However,  such  testimony 
as  we  have  been  able  to  get  today  bears  the  ear  marks  of  truth.  Now, 
let’s  say  it  costs  $8  for  a young  woman  to  live  and  let  us  say  that  her  em- 
ployer pays  her  from  $2  to  $5.  I know  of  two  ways  that  she  can  make  up 
the  deficit,  where  the  deficit  is  absolutely  fixed;  she  can  draw  nothing  from 
her  home,  she  is  contributing  to  her  home,  if  anything,  and  she  cannot 
draw  from  it.  One  way,  if  she  is  in  commercial  life,  she  may  augment 
the  scant  earnings  by  dishonesty  for  a limited  period  of  time  and  she 
may  augment  the  earnings  as  we  have  discussed.  Now,  will  you  show  me 
the  third  way?  You  say  it  is  not  a question  of  wage.  We  agree 
that  this  wage  may  be  augmented  by  dishonesty  and  may  be  augmented 
by  vice.  Will  you  show  any  other  way?  MR.  BARRETT:  By  charity. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Charity?  MR.  BARRETT;  Yes.  There  are  a 
j great  many  charitable  organizations  through  the  contry  that  help  women 
and  girls.  I know  in  a great  many  cities  the  Florence  Crittendon  Mis- 
I sion  makes  a point  of  that.  You  bring  the  question  down  to  one  of 
* two  things.  She  has  to  live  and  she  has  to  get  the  money  somehow. 
Now,  how  is  she  going  to  get  it? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  say  that  low  wage  has  no  particular  bearing 
on  the  question  of  vice.  1 am  trying  to  ask  you,  not  to  crowd  you 
up  in  a corner,  but  to  discuss  with  you  a vital  question.  What  would 
you  suggest?  Suggest  anything  to  this  committee  and  we  will  be  very 
glad  to  get  it.  We  have  heard  some  testimony  today  that  girls  here  work 
for  $2  a week.  You  say  a girl  getting  $2  a week,  if  she  goes  wrong, 
cannot  blame  it  on  the  wages?  MR.  BARRETT:  In  a particular  case 
like  that  it  might  be,  if  she  went  wrong,  but  those  cases  are  very  small. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  If  I told  you  that  almost  invariably  those  who 
testified  in  executive  sessious,  under  oath,  testified  that  they  went  wrong 
from  that  cause,  what  would  you  say?  MR.  BARRETT:  I would  say 
that  you  have  better  information  than  we  have. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Are  there  any  contributors  to  your  organization 
who  are  large  employers  of  female  labor?  MR.  BARRETT:  No.  Not 
unless  you  consider  $50  a large  contribution.  I think  that  would  be 
about  the  limit  of  the  contribution  we  receive. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Take  the  $50  contributions  collectively,  do  they 
come  mostly  from  large  employers  of  labor?  MR.  BARRETT:  Abso- 
lutely not. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  Who  are  your  contributors  in  Chicago?  MR. 
BARRETT:  I haven’t  a list  of  them.  I can  get  a list  in  15  minutes. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Can  you  give  us  half  a dozen  names  offhand? 
MR.  BARRETT:  Of  course  not,  not  offhand.  When  they  have  78 
homes,  how  could  you  expect  me  to  give  you  any  names  offhand,  even 
here  in  Washington? 


372 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  do  not  fear  to  reveal  any  of  the 
large  contributors?  MR.  BARRETT;  Absolutely  not.  We  have  no 
large  contributors.  We  have  none,  I should  say,  who  contribute  over 
$50. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Do  you  think,  and  would  you  tell  us,  man  to 
man,  that  you  think  woman  should  get  a living  wage  without  reo'ard  to 
her  ability?  MR.  BARRETT:  Absolutely,  and  I am  perfectly  willing 
to  say  it.  I stand  right  here  and  say  it  and  believe  in  it,  absolutely  be- 
lieve in  it,  but  I do  not  say  that  the  lack  of  it  has  been  the  cause  of 
women  and  girls  going  wrong  to  a large  extent  that  it  would  seem  appar- 
ent from  some  of  the  questions  that  have  been  asked. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Would  you  say  it  has  an  influence?  MR.  BAR- 
RETT: I would  say  it  has  an  influence. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  consider  that  any  effort  to  lift  the 
woman  upon  a supporting  basis  would  be  an  effort  in  the  right  direction? 
MR.  BARRETT;  Absolutely. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  consider  that  there  is  more  vice 
in  poverty  than  in  riches?  MR.  BARRETT:  No,  sir,  I do  not.  Take 
the  villages  and  the  small  towns.  It  is  hard  to  conceive  of  such  a con- 
dition. The  girl  working  in  the  department  store  for  $3  or  $2  a week 
starts  out  with  the  idea  that  she  is  to  continue  in  her  position  and  it  is  i 
hard  to  try  to  conceive  of  a girl  of  that  kind  trying  to  augment  her  in-  | 
come  by  the  sale  of  her  body. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  What  proportion  of  women  in  the  Washing-  i 
ton  vice  district  are  held  against  their  will,  if  any?  MR.  BARRETT:  I 
I should  say  at  the  present  time  the  proportion  is  very,  very  small, 
practically  none.  Practically  any  girl,  so  far  as  we  know,  who  wants  j 
to  leave  these  houses,  can  do  so  and  since  the  passage  of  the  United  | 
States  law  it  prevents  the  madam  of  the  house  from  keeping  a girl’s  ! 
clothing  for  debt.  That  law  is  in  effect  in  the  District  of  Columbia  and  i 
a girl  can  leave  at  any  time.  Before  that  they  could  be  locked  up  and  | 
the  madam  could  keep  each  girl’s  clothes. 

Dr.  Elnora  C.  Folkmar’s  Testimony. 

Doctor  Elnora  C.  Folkmar  then  took  the  stand. 

DOCTOR  FOLKMAR;  Mr.  Chairman,  before  making  a statement,  i 
may  I ask  a privilege?  I believe  your  time  is  about  over  and  I wish  i 
to  ask  that  two  or  three  of  the  people  who  are  present  and  who  have  i 
something  to  say  to  you,  may  have  the  privilege  of  making  their  state-  i 
ment  to  you  in  writing.  I should  like  very  much  to  have  Mr.  Klein,  i 
who  can  tell  you  what  the  Gospel  Mission  has  done,  and  Dr.  Pringle, 
who  is  present  and  has  done  some  good  work  in  Alaine.  tell  3-ou  in  i 
writing  what  he  has  done.  Kindlj"  let  it  be  understood  that  these  people 
have  come  prepared  and  they  will  hand  their  statements  to  j'ou. 

In  stating  my  views,  which  I shall  do  in  a very  few  words,  I wish  ! 
to  say  that  I beg  to  be  excused  from  the  economic  problem  this  afternoon  I 
because  that  has  been  well  discussed  and  I agree  with  you  that  a minimum  | 
wage  is  a good  thing,  but  would  ask  the  privilege  of  suggesting  that  there  i 
are  other  things  that  we  must  consider.  Time  has  changed  since  the  i 
days  of  our  grandparents,  not  simply  in  the  high  cost  of  living  but  in 
the  amount  of  leisure  which  we  have  and  the  amusements  and  the  tempta- 
tions which  are  placed  before  our  boys  and  girls.  Back  in  our  grandpar- 
ents’ time  we  did  not  have  the  vaudeville  theatre,  the  suggestive  plaj-s,  and 
we  did  not  have  the  newspapers  giving  the  class  of  information  which  we 
have  now,  nor  the  amount  of  quack  advertising  and  manj^  other  things 
which  come  to  our  boys  and  girls  and  tend  to  lower  their  moral  fibre. 

Something  will  have  to  be  done  in  connection  with  the  amelioration 
of  this  problem  which  will  give  us  a better  general  moral  fibre.  That 
comes  back  just  to  the  point  of  age.  Doctor  Woodward  brought  out 
the  fact  that  a number  of  girls  fall  when  they  are  mere  children.  It  has 
been  my  experience  in  my  work  in  the  Women’s  clinic  to  treat  a number 
of  little  girls  under  12  years  of  age  suffering  from  venereal  infection, 
and  the  history  of  those  cases  of  all  that  have  venereal  infection  was 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  373 

admitted  as  the  result  of  illicit  conditions.  That,  theti,  comes  outside  of 
the  wage  problem. 

Another  thought  in  this  same  conclusion  is  what  is  the  responsibility 
of  man  in  this  connection  other  than  that  of  paying  a wage?  If  we  had 
a strong  moral  fibre  so  that  our  men  would  not  tempt  those  girls,  they 
could  not  sell  their  bodies.  I do  not  say  that  we  are  going  to  make 
human  nature  over.  Certain  conditions  have  always  been  with  us.  but  it  is 
a recent  matter  to  have  vice  commercialized  to  the  extent  that  it  is  not 
the  question  of  the  girl  making  a wage,  but  the  case  of  a cadet  and  the 
procurer  and  madam,  and  in  addition  to  that  the  landlord  who  rents  the 
house.  Those  are  big  problems.  If  there  is  anything  you  wish  to  ask 
me,  I will  be  glad  to  send  it  to  you  in  writing. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  I want  to  express  on  behalf  of  the  Committee 
the  extreme  gratification  for  your  appearing  before  us  and  for  all  you 
have  done.  Dr.  Folkmar  has  for  several  days  labored  to  make  this  meet- 
ing productive  of  much  benefit;  and  the  members  of  the  Committee  are 
sincerely  appreciative.  Ladies  and  gentlemen,  we  wish  again  to  thank 
you  all  for  the  co-operation  you  have  rendered  us  and  to  beg  of  you 
to  continue  this  co-operation. 

Thereupon  at  5 :30  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  adjourned. 


S 


i 


SESSION  XII 


The  Committee  returns  to  Chicago  from  Washington  and  re- 
I sumes  its  public  hearings.  Manufacturers  and  employes  in  the 
jj  clothing  industry  called  as  witnesses.  Testimony  of: 

Walter  J.  Rubens,  Rubens  & Marble,  underwear  manufac- 
turers ; 

1 Esther  Berenson,  clothing  shop  worker; 

t Hyman  Goldberg,  millinery  manufacturer; 

{ Rebecca  Schultz,  clothing  shop  worker; 

!'  Sarah  Schwartz,  clothing  shop  worker; 

Ij,  Louis  Nathan,  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co.; 

'I  Mrs.  Siegel,  employed  by  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co.; 

I Libby  Kaplan,  employed  by  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co.; 

iji  Lizzie  Fox,  employed  by  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co.; 

i Helen  Rosini,  employed  by  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co. 

I Chicago,  Illinois,  March  31,  1913,  10  A.  M. 

i The  ILLINOIS  SENATORIAL  VICE  COMMITTEE  convened 
[at  the  Hotel  La  Salle,  Chicago,  Illinois,  March  31st,  at  10:00  A.  M. 

II  Present:  Chairman  O’Hara,  Senator  Juul,  Senator  Beall,  Senator 
I Tossey,  Senator  Woodard.  Thereupon  the  following  proceedings  were 
[ had: 

In  Walter  J.  Rubens’  Testimony. 

: WALTER  J.  RUBENS,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as 

follows: 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Walter  J. 

II  Rubens. 

Q.  Your  business,  Mr.  Rubens?  A.  Manufacturer  of  underwear. 

I Q.  With  what  firm  are  you  connected?  A.  With  the  firm  of  Rubens 
j & Marble,  Incorporated. 

i.  Q.  That  is,  incorporated  under  the  laws  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

i Q.  What  office  do  you  occupy?  A.  Vice-president. 

I Q.  As  such  you  are  familiar  with  the  wages  paid  the  girls  in  the 

employ  of  your  firm?  A.  I am. 

I Q.  And  you  are  familiar  with  the  working  conditions?  A.  I am. 

Q.  And  with  the  influences  that  confront  the  girls  and  their  moral 
((conditions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  employ,  Mr.  Rubens?  A.  We  employ 
iat  present  one  hundred  and  eighty-six  girls. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  in  your  employ  a week? 
A.  $5.00. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  any  girl  in  your  employ  during 
last  year?  A.  $5.00. 

Q.  During  the  last  two  years?  A.  $5.00.  We  never  paid  any  less 
Jthan  $5.00. 

Q.  To  how  many  girls  do  you  pay  $5.00  a week?  A.  We  have 
(twenty-three  that  we  pay  $5.00  a week. 

I Q.  What  is  the  next  classification?  A.  The  next  is  $5.50.  We  have 
1 forty  girls. 

j Q.  And  the  next  classification?  A.  $6.00. 

375 


376  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  girls  at  six  dollars?  A.  Eighteen. 

Q.  Will  you  read  that  table  as  you  have  it  prepared?  A.  We  have 
eighteen  at  $6.00. 

Q.  And  how  many  at  $5?  A.  Twenty-three  at  five,  forty  at  five 
and  a half,  eighteen  at  six,  fight  at  six-fifty,  nineteen  at  seven,  ten  at 
seven  and  a half,  fifteen  at  eight,  twelve  at  eight  and  a half,  four  at  nine, 
seven  at  nine-fifty,  two  at  ten,  six  at  ten-fifty,  three  at  eleven,  three  at 
eleven  and  a half,  nine  , at  twelve,  three  at  thirteen,  one  at  thirteen-fifty, 
one  at  fourteen,  two  at  fifteen,  two  at  twenty-five. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  that  table  for  our  record?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Rubens,  in  your  judgment,  based  on  your  own  experience, 
does  the  matter  of  low  wages  have  anything  to  do  with  immorality? 
A.  It  would  have  something,  but  not  very  much. 

Q.  How  much  would  it  have  in  your  judgment?  A.  Well,  that 
would  depend  on  the  girl’s  home  conditions. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  an  employer  has  a moral  responsibility? 
A.  To  a great  extent. 

Q.  To  the  employed?  A.  To  a great  extent,  yes,  that  is,  speaking  of 
the  conditions  about  his  factory  and  the  people  that  he  lets  come  in. 

Q.  You  have  heard  of  the  term  “White  Slavery?”  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  there  is  any  such  a condition  as  is  suggested 
by  the  term  “White  Slavery?”  A.  I think  there  is  such  a condition 
from  things  that  have  come  out  at  times.  But  it  has  not  been  prevalent 
in  our  factory. 

Q.  You  have  had  some  personal  experience  then  with  “White 
Slavery”  in  your  factory  that  came  under  your  observation?  A.  I have 
not  had  any  experience  with  “White  Slavery,”  but  we  have  had  a woman 
come  in  and  try  to  take  girls  out  to  live  with  them  in  these  houses. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us,  Mr.  Rubens,  of  that  experience,  of  these  ex- 
periences? A.  Well,  there  is  only  one  experience  of  that  sort  that  I 
know  of,  of  where  we  were  compelled  to  call  in  a United  States  District 
Attorney  with  regard  to  the  woman. 

Q.  When  that  happened — what  time  was  it?  A.  That  was  about 
three  or  four  years  ago. 

Q.  You  say  a woman  came  into  your  factory?  A.  Yes,  she  worked 
in  our  employ  for  some  time  before  we  found  out  what  she  was  doing. 

Q.  How  did  you  find  out?  A.  Why,  she  was  teaching  the  girls 
improper  things,  to  dance  in  certain  ways,  and  other  things,  and  com- 
plaints were  made  by  various  girls  about  her. 

Q.  Did  she  endeavor  to  take  any  of  the  girls  from  your  employ? 
A.  Well,  I have  been  told  she  did,  but  I don’t  know  of  my  own  actual 
knowledge. 

Q.  What  were  you  told?  A.  I was  told  that  she  tried  to  persuade 
the  girls  to  go  out  with  her  and  lead  a life  that  was  not  proper. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  girls  follow  her  advice  that  you  know  of?  A.  I 
don’t  know  of  any  that  did. 

Q.  What  was  the. name  of  this  woman?  A.  Her  name  was  LaBuy. 

Q.  What  was  her  first  name?  A.  Dorothy,  or  some  such  name  as 

that. 

Q.  Dorothy  LaBuy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall' her  address  at  that  time?  A.  No,  sir,  I do  not; 
it  was  on  Lowe  avenue. 

Q.  Was  it  2950  Lowe  avenue?  A.  I could  not  say;  I think  that  is 
the  number,  but  I do  not  remember  for  sure. 

Q.  You  called  in  whom — the  District  Attorney?  A.  M’ell,  we  did 
not,  but  some  one  of  the  other  tenants  in  the  building  who  objected  to 
her  doing  these  things  and  called  him  in. 

Q.  The  attorney  was  whom — what  was  his  name?  A.  Mr.  Roe — 
Clifford  Roe. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


377 


Q.  Did  he  cause  the  arrest  of  Mrs.  LaBuy?  A.  I could  not  say, 
but  she  disappeared  from  the  building  after  that. 

Q.  You  know  nothing  about  her  present  whereabouts?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever,  on  any  other  occasion,  been  similarly  bothered? 
A.  Well,  not  in  that  manner;  there  have  been  certain  girls  that  went 
with  men  that  would  promise  them  everything,  and  who  wanted  to  take 
them  out. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a woman  named  Fredericks?  A.  There  was  such 
a woman  or  one  by  some  such  name. 

Q.  Is  she  still  in  your  employ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  she  discharged?  A.  She  was  discharged. 

Q.  For  what  reason?  A.  For  improper  actions. 

Q.  What  were  those  improper  actions?  A.  Why,  her  method  of 
speech  and  teaching  other  girls  to  dance  improperly. 

Q.  Was  this  woman,  according  to  the  reports  that  reached  you,  en- 
deavoring to  take  any  of  the  girls  from  your  establishment  and  sell  them 
into  “White  Slavery”?  A.  Not  as  I know  of. 

Q.  But  she  did  teach  them  immoral  practices?.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  she  been  at  this  before  it  was  called  to  your  atten- 
tion? A.  Well,  I could  not  say,  it  was  called  particularly  to  my  attention 
once  or  twice  and  she  was  warned,  and  on  the  second  occasion  she  was 

• discharged. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  this  happen?  A.  Why,  it  is  over  a year  now. 

Q.  Since  that  time  have  you  had  any  further  trouble  with  “White 
Slavery”  or  immoral  women?  A.  Well,  not  with  immoral  women.  We 
.had  a case  about  a month  ago  where  a man  took  a young  girl  and  she  left 
her  home.  Her  parents  were  respectable  pople,  and  this  man  was  arrested 
and  this  girl  is  now  being  held  by  the  police  as  a witness  against  him,  and 
he  has  been  bound  over  to  the  Grand  Jury. 

Q.  This  girl  that  was  taken  out  was  in  your  employ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  she  been  working  for  you?  A.  I could  not  say,  I 
do  not  remember;  I did  not  look  it  up  on  the  records. 

Q.  For  some  considerable  period  of  time,  a year  or  such  a matter? 
A.  Possibly  that. 

Q.  How  old  a girl  was  she?  A.  A girl,  I guess,  seventeen  years  old. 

Q.  How  much  money  was  she  getting?  A.  I don’t  know  just  now,  I 
did  not  look  it  up.  I think  she  was  earning  seven  dollars,  six  or  seven 
dollars,  I would  not  sav  for  sure. 

j Q.  What  is  her  name?  A.  I do  not  believe  this  girl  would  care  to 

* have  her  name  published. 

Q.  We  would  like  to  have  it  for  our  records.  Isn’t  it  a police  record? 
t A.  I haven’t  seen  any  account  of  it  in  the  papers. 

Q.  What  were  the  circumstances  of  this  girl’s  misfortune?  A.  The 
first  I knew  of  it  her  mother  came  down  on  Monday  morning  and  wanted 
to  know  if  we  knew  anything  of  her  whereabouts.  In  fact  she  had  a 
couple  of  officers  working  on  the  case  for  a number  of  nights  before,  and 
she  inquired  of  him  and  also  of  us.  She  had  been  there  to  work  Saturday, 
and  that  was  the  last  anyjjody  had  seen  of  her,  and  on  the.  Friday  before  a 
telephone  message  had  come  for  this  girl  and  by  some  mistake  the 
message  was  never  delivered  and  the  telephone  number  was  left,  and 
from  that  the  police  were  able  to  locate  the  fellow. 

Q.  She  was  found  with  this  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  he  endeavored  to  place  her  in  a house  of  prostitution?  .A.  I 
; could  not  say;  I do  not  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  he  tried  to  sell  her  into  “White  Slavery,” 
or  merely  debauched  her?  A.  I could  not  say,  I do  not  know  any  more 
of  the  facts. 

Q.  Had  he  been  in  your  employ,  that  fellow?  A-  No,  sir, 


378 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Had  he  been  working  around  your  place?  A.  T have  been  told  so, 
hanging  out  on  the  street,  around  the  entrance  of  the  building. 

Q.  Hanging  around  there  and  trying  to  work  up  a friendship  or 
acquaintance  with  some  of  these  girls  as  they  left  their  employment? 

A.  I suppose  so. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  other  experience  of  that  sort?  A.  A little 
over  a year  ago  there  was  a girl  taken  out,  or  something  happened,  and 
the  girl  was  taken  to  California  and  she  was  located  there,  but  she 
managed  to  escape  from  a locked  room  in  some  way  and  worked  her  way 
back  to  Chicago,  and  is  in  our  employ  now. 

Q.  Still  in  your  employ?  A.  Yes,  she  came  back  and  we  took  her  to 
work. 

Q.  Was  she  taken  to  California  and  locked  up  as  a “white  slave,” 
and  did  she  escape  and  come  back  to  your  employ?  A.  Well,  I could  not 
say  as  to  the  “white  slave”  part,  but  she  was  out  there.  I never  questioned 
the  girl. 

Q.  How  did  you  find  out  that  she  had  been  lured  to  California? 

A.  From  what  she  told  the  forelady. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  forelady?  A.  Our  forelady  is  Carrie 
Peterson. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Sergeant-at-Arms,  will  you  kindly  serve 
a subpoena  on  Carrie  Peterson.  Where  does  she  live?  A.  She  lives  in 
Oak  Park.  I could  not  say  just  where.  We  have  quite  a number  of 
employes  and  I cannot  remember  all  their  addresses. 

Q.  We  will  leave  that  go  until  this  afternoon,  and  Mr.  Rubens  will 
have  Miss  Peterson  here.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Rubens,  what  precautions  have  you  taken  against  the  men 
who  loiter  around  your  place  to  induce  girls  away?  A.  Well,  if  anybody 
is  found  loitering  in  the  halls  they  are  ordered  out,  and  if  they  don’t  go 
out  they  are  arrested. 

Q.  How  many  men  of  that  nature  have  you  had  arrested?  A.  Well, 
so  far  it  has  been  unnecessary  to  arrest  anyone  because  they  always  went 
when  ordered. 

Q.  Is  that  a general  condition,  these  men  lurking  around  places  such 
as  this?  A.  I believe  it  is. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Suppose  you  take  the  witness.  Senator  Juul. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL.  | 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Mr.  Rubens,  do  you  consider  that  the  girls  in  | 
your  employ  would  have  been  better  fortified  against  temptation  if  they  | 
had  been  remunerated  up  to  a point  -where  they  would  be  absolutely  | 
independent  of  the  influences  of  which  you  have  spoken?  A.  No,  sir,  I don’t  I 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  the  minimum  which  a young  woman  who  has  | 
got  to  live  honestly  and  live  out  of  -w^hat  you  pay  her,  what^  do  you  j 
consider  should  be  the  minimum  wage?  A.  A girl  can  exist  on  $5.00. 

Q.  Exist  on  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  she  can  come  down  on  Monday  morning  and  work  for  you 
from  Monday  morning  until  Saturday  evening  and  pay  her  carfare  and 
live  out  of  that?  A.  She  could.  • 

Q.  And  get  clothing  sufficient,  and  food?  A.  Well,  yes. 

Q.  On  five  dollars?  A.  She  could,  but  it  would  be  prettj^  hard  work 
for  her  to  do  it. 

Q.  Well  now,  what  is  the  reason,  is  it  the  nature  of  the  work  that 
these  girls  perform  for  you  which  is  so  poorly  paid,  what  is  the  reason  it 
becomes  necessary  for  you  to  pay  the  girls  less  than  will  sustain  life. 

A.  The  competition  of  the  Eastern  mills  compels  us  to  pay  such  poor 
wages.  We  could  not  compete  if  we  paid  higher  wages. 

Q.  I have  been  looking  over  your  statement  and  listening  to  your 
testimony  and  I find  that  if  it  is  true  as  several  employers  have  stated 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


379 


here  before  you,  that  a girl  can  live  on  eight  dollars  a week,  I find  that 
your  pay  roll  is  just  $241.00  below  a living  basis.  Now,  do  you  mean  to 
tell  this  Committee  that  foreign  competition,  or  competition  with  the 
outside  manufacturers,  is  such  that  the  additional  payment  of  $241.00  per 
week  would  put  you  out  of  the  running  as  a manufacturer  in  Illinois? 
A.  Well,  $241.00  would  not,  but  that  is  $241.00  for  one  week. 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Of  course,  in  a year’s  time  it  would  hurt  us. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  that  the  size  of  your  business  would  bear  that 
additional  burden?  A.  Well,  no,  because  the  profits  are  very  close. 

Q.  What  were  the  profits  of  your  business  last  year?  A.  I could 
!not  say  because  our  firm  was  incorporated  last  year  and  we  have  not 
'closed  up  the  first  fiscal  year  yet. 

Q.  What  was  it  the  year  before?  A.  I do  not  know.  I was  not  a 
'member  of  the  firm  at  that  time. 

Q.  Here  you  are  furnishing  me  with  a list  that  contains  one  hundred 
j|eighty-six  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

f Q.  And  the  names  of  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Fifty-three  of  the  total  number  of  the  girls  are  above  what  we 
call  the  bread  line,  if  the  bread  line  is  $8.00.  People  have  testified  here 
that  a young  woman  can  live  on  $8.00  a week.  There  are  one  hundred 
and  thirty-three  left.  Fifteen  are  right  on  the  line  and  one  hundred  and 
■eighteen  below.  It  would  take  $241.00  weekly  to  put  those  118  girls  up  to  a 
point  where  they  could  be  self-supporting,  where  temptation  so  far  as 
'temptation  is  due  to  their  inability  to  earn  their  own  living,  where  tempta- 
) tion  might  be  removed  from  them.  Do  you  want  to  go  on  record  before 
ijthe  Committee  and  state  that  your  business  could  not  afford  the  payment 
jfof  such  wages  to  those  girls?  A.  We  could  possibly  afford  it,  but  it 
•would  be  a hardship  on  us  on  account  of  competition. 

Q.  But  it  would  be  a benefit  to  the  tune  of  $241.00  a week  to  those 
girls,  wouldn’t  it?  Could  it  be  done  and  the  business  still  run  and  earn  a 
profit?  A.  It  could  be  done,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  business  could  earn  a good  profit  on  the  investment? 
A.  I would  not  say  a good  profit.  It  would  earn  a profit. 

I Q.  And  would  pay  the  salaries  of  the  owners  of  the  business  in 
[their  various  capacities  and  would  pay  five  or  six  or  seven  per  cent  on 
:|the  investment?  A.  It  would  not  pay  seven  per  cent, 
i Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  pay  six?  A.  It  might. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  it  good  morals  to  place  118  young  women 

A.  I will  tell  you 

! Q.  Daughters  out  of  the  same  kind  of  families  that  we  are  out  of, 
do  you  consider  it  is  good  morals  and  good  business  to  place  those  118 
[girls  in  a position  where  they  are  under  temptation,  do  you  consider  it  is 
'good  policy  or  good  business,  or  good  morals,  to  place  those  118  girls  in 
a position  where  in  order  to  get  things  to  eat  and  clothing  they  are  put 
! under  temptation  for  the  sake  of  two  or  three  dollars  a week,  do  you 
i think  it  is  good  morals  to  expose  them  to  that  temptation?  A.  No,  sir. 

! Q.  You  do  not  think  so?  A.  No,  sir. 

, Q.  What  do  you  think  of  a law  which  would  compel  you  and  others 

jengaged  in  the  same  line  of  business  to  pay  at  least  an  amount  that  would 
enable  those  girls  to  live  without  falling  to  temptation?  A.  If  it  was  to 
:be  a national  law  it  would  be  very  good,  but  as  a State  law  I do  not  think 
jit  would  be  the  proper  thing. 

; Q.  Outside  of  any  national  law  you  do  not  think  that  this  $241.00 
'additional  weekly  which  your  girls  are  receiving  below  the  line — you 
stated  a minute  ago  that  you  could  pay  it.  A.  We  could. 

I Q.  And  you  still  could  earn  dividends?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  would  not  be  any  great  necessity  of  your  cutting  the  salary 
I of  the  president  or  vice-president  or  secretary,  would  there?  A.  No,  sir. 
f Q.  And  you  could  still  live  and  pay  these  girls  up  to  $8.00.  A.  We  do. 


380  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

I may  say  our  girls,  after  they  are  there  six  months,  their  pay  is  raised 
automatically. 

Q.  If  that  is  true,  do  you  get  rid  of  the  girls  that  are  above  the  line — 
you  have  in  your  work  there  only  fifty-three  women  above  the  bread  line. 

Do  you  get  rid  of  them  when  they  get  across  that?  A.  No,  sir;  they 
stay  with  us  as  long  as  they  want.  There  is  a majority  of  these  girls  that 
have  been  with  us  for  over  five  or  six  years  who  get  married.  Last  year 
we  had  twenty-one  girls  get  married  that  had  been  with  us  for  six  or 
eight  years  or  over. 

Q.  You  testified  here  that  the  smallest  wage  you  paid  is  $5.00?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  here  you  have  twenty-three  that  get  $5.00?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  you  stating  that  from  your  own  knowledge,  or  just  from 

what  you  believe?  A.  I am  stating  that  from  our  records. 

Q.  Who  looks  after  that?  A.  Why,  the  bookkeeper  looks  after 

that. 

Q.  Who  pays  them?  A.  The  bookkeeper. 

Q.  Who  directs  that  pay?  A.  Mr.  E.  A.  Marble,  our  treasurer. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  what  he  does  there  in  your  place?  A. 
Not  in  all  things.  I am  acquainted  generally. 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  the  lowest  a girl  gets  is  $5.00  a week?  A. 
Positively  we  never  employed  any  girls  for  less  than  that. 

Q.  Have  you  got  a girl  by  the  name  of  Ida  Consort?  A.  We  had  a 
girl  with  us. 

Q.  You  had  a girl  by  that  name?  A.  Yes;  if  a girl  don't  work  full 
time  she  probably  don’t  earn  $5.00.  ' 

Q.  You  mean  to  forestall  the  question  by  stating  if  this  girl  got  | 
less A.  If  she  didn’t  work  her  full  time  perhaps  she  did  get  less. 

Q.  That  girl  didn’t  get  $5.00.  Your  answer  to  that  is A.  If  she 

didn’t  work  her  full  time  she  probably  did  not  earn  her  $5.00. 

Q.  Don’t  let  us  confuse  what  she  was  earning  with  what  she  was 
getting.  We  take  it  for  granted  that  those  girls  earn  more  than  they  are 
getting.  A.  If  she  didn’t  work  her  nine  hours  a day  and  full  six  days, 
that  is  nine  hours  a day  except  Saturday,  where  it  is  one  hour  shorter, 
eight  hours,  she  would  not  get  her  full  $5.00. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  case A.  That  is  the  only  time,  but  if  they 

work  full  time,  as  we  have  been  working  for  the  past  six  months,  she 
earned  $5.00. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  full  time  in  your  place?  A.  Nine  hours  a day. 

Q.  Have  you  a system  of  fines  for  anyone  coming  late?  A.  If  they 
are  over  fifteen  minutes  late,  that  is  the  only  time  anything  is  deducted. 

Q.  When  you  do  fine  them  do  j^ou  fine  them  something  in  excess  of 
the  fifteen  minutes?  A.  No,  sir;  we  deduct  the  time,  fifteen  minutes  of 
time. 

Q.  Anything  less  than  fifteen  minutes,  do  you  dock  them  for  a 
quarter  of  an  hour?  A.  If  it  is  only  eleven  minutes  we  do  not;  if  they 
are  late  over  three  times  a week  we  deduct  it,  but  if  it  is  less  than  three 
times  we  don’t  deduct  it. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  there  is  a moral,  if  not  legal  obligation,  for 
an  employer  to  pay  what  is  necessary  properly  to  clothe  or  decently 
clothe  and  feed  an  employe,  and  furnish  the  employe  a place  of  shelter, 
do  you  consider  that  is  an  obligation  upon  a man  who  takes  a woman  for 
his  work  from  Monday  morning  to  Saturday  night?  A.  \ es,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  explain  the  discrepancy  here?  A.  Well,  there  are 
various  classes  of  work  that  are  not  worth  any  more  than  they  are  getting 
paid  for. 

Q.  That  is  just  what  I want  to  get  at.  You  take  these  girls 

that  are  earning  $5.00  a week  in  onr  factory;  that  is,  not  a class  of  work 
that  is  worth  any  more. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


381 


Q.  Who  determines  whether  it  is  worth  any  more  or  not?  A.  We 
can  tell  that. 

Q.  It  takes  a human  being  to  do  that  work?  A.  It  does. 

Q.  And  you  take  her  time?  A.  We  do. 

Q.  And  that  human  being  has  to  have  food  to  eat  and  a place  to 
sleep  and  carfare  to  come  down?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  pay  that?  A.  I will  not  say  that  we  do  not  pay 

it.  We  pay  what  the  work  is  worth. 

Q.  You  determine  wdiat  it  is  w'orth?  A.  We  certainly  do. 

Q.  You  told  me  a minute  ago  that  the  earning  capacity  of  these 
; girls  is  such  that  they  can  earn  a good  interest  on  your  investment  and 
good  salaries  for  the  men  that  run  the  business,  and  there  still  would  be 
$241.00  left  to  pay,  or  a difference  which  you  do  not  pay.  I want  to  try 
and  get  together  with  you.  I want  to  try  and  instill  into  the  men  that 
come  there,  try  and  get  them  to  realize  that  there  should  be  a moral 
obligation  on  the  part  of  the  employers  to  see  that  their  employes  are 

properly  fed  and  clothed  and  sheltered.  Outside  of  this  I haven’t  any 

business  with  it.  You  don’t  feel  that  way  about  it,  do  you?  A.  I be- 
lieve that  they  should  have. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  that  the  twenty-three  girls  who  get  $5.00  a 
week  can  do  that  with  that  amount  of  money,  do  you?  A.  Well,  they 
can  exist. 

Q.  Could  any  sister  of  yours  exist  on  it?  A.  Well,  I could  not  say, 
because  I have  never  had  one  that  had  to  do  that. 

Q.  You  have  forty  at  $5.50?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Out  of  the  entire  number  of  girls,  and  there  are  186  involved, 
there  are  186  of  them,  118  of  them  which,  if  it  was  left  to  you,  according 
to  the  statement  you  have  made  before  this  Committee,  neither  would  eat 
sufficiently  or  be  clothed  sufficiently,  or  have  a place  in  which  to  sleep? 
A.  No,  sir;  if  it  was  left  to  me,  and  if  I could  possibly  do  it,  I would 
give  them  more. 

Q.  It  is  left  to  you  to  hire  them  and  fix  the  salaries?  A.  In  engag- 
ing the  girls,  that  is  left  to  the  forelady,  the  forelady  fixes  the  salaries,  or 
it  is  done  by  Mr.  Marble. 

Q.  After  consultation  with  the  other  gentlemen?  A.  He  established 
a minimum  scale  of  $5.00,  and  the  forelady  can  engage  more  at  her  own 
discretion. 

Q.  I think  that  we  ought  to  send  for  Mr.  Marble.  A.  He  is  not  in 
the  city  at  present. 

Q.  When  will  he  be  here?  A.  I could  not  say;  I know  I expect 
him  today. 

Q.  Are  there  any  immediate  prospects  for  any  immediate  betterment 
of  the  condition  of  those  118  women?  A.  I could  not  say.  I will  give  it 
my  attention  and  see  if  there  is  any  means  of  doing  it. 

_Q.  Is  there  any  desire  on  your  part  to  do  it?  A.  I would  like  to 
do  it  if  it  was  in  my  power. 

Q.  Will  you  take  it  up  with  your  partners?  A.  I will  as  soon  as 
they  are  all  in  the  city  here. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  a law  compeling — you  say  that  the  law 
should  be  National?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  a good  thing  for  the  State  of  Illinois  to  take 
the  initiative?  A.  It  probably  would,  but  it  would  be  a hardship  on 
many  of  the  manufacturers  until  other  states  compelled  the  manufacturers 
to  do  it. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  hardship  that  is  now  inflicted  on 
the  young  women  that  don’t  get  enough  to  live  on?  A.  It  is  a greater 
hardship  on  them. 

Q.  _ And  it  would  be  a good  thing  to  help  remove  temptation?  A. 
There  is  no  doubt  about  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  say  that  you  have  never  paid  a girl  less 
than  $5.00  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


382  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  . 

Q.  All  of  the  girls  enumerated  here  are  getting  $5.00  or  more?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  base  that  on  their  working  nine  hours  a day  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a week?  A.  Fifty-four  hours  a week. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Does  not  this  $5.00  include  one  hour  of  over- 
time? A.  No,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  time  do  those  girls  go  to  work  in 
the  morning?  A.  At  8 o’clock. 

Q.  How  long  do  they  have  for  lunch?  A.  Half  an  hour. 

Q.  Where  do  they  go  for  lunch?  A.  Most  of  them  bring  their 
lunches  with  them. 

Q.  And  do  not  leave  the  building?  A.  Very  -few  of  them  go  out;  1 
do  not  suppose  over  seven  or  eight  go  outside. 

Q.  Their  lunch  hour  is  between  what  hours?  A.  Between  12  and 
12:30  o’clock. 

Q.  From  12:30  o’clock  they  work  how  long?  A.  Until  5:30  o’clock. 

Q.  Do  any  of  the  girls  work  longer  than  5:30  o’clock?  A.  No,  sir; 
except  when  we  work  overtime,  which  we  have  been  doing  for  the  last  six 
months,  up  until  Saturday,  when  we  discontinued  it.  Today  is  the  first  day 
under  the  new  schedule. 

Q.  When  you  work  overtime  }"ou  work  some  of  these  girls  into  the 
night?  A.  No,  sir;  we  begin  a quarter  of  an  hour  earlier  in  the  morning 
and  work  until  6:15  o’clock  in  the  evening. 

Q.  When  the  girls  work  overtime  how  much  extra  time  do  you  give 
them?  A.  Their  extra  scale  per  hour. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  It  is  about  10  cents  an  hour.  If  they  stayed 
overtime  two  or  three  hours  that  would  not  be  enough  to  buy  lunch  out 
of,  would  it?  In  other  words,  they  don’t  get  enough  out  of  the  extra 
time A.  They  could  not  stay  over  three  hours. 

Q.  If  they  stayed  three  hours  and  you  paid  them  the  full  amount  of 
the  scale  of  wages,  they  would  not  get  enough,  according  to  your  scale,  to 
buy  one  meal  in  a nearby  restaurant,  would  they?  A.  V'^ell,  I could  not 
say. 

Q.  You  do  not  run  any  charitable  institution,  do  you?  A.  No,  sir;  I 
don’t  believe  any  manufacturer  does. 

SENATOR  JULTL:  No,  sir;  there  are  a number  of  them  that  don’t. 

CHAIRAIAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  ever  worked  anj--  of  the  girls  there 
night  hours?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  After  6 o’clock?  A.  No,  sir;  never. 

Q.  Your  figures  are  based  on  a girl’s  working  full  time?  A.  Yes. 
sir.  ' I If 'SI  •UHI 

O.  Supnose  the  girl  only  works  fifty  hours  a week,  have  you  any 
such?  A.  I don’t  know,  if  she  only  works  six  or  seven,  or  only  works 
eight  hours  a day  they  do  not  get  as  much. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  them?  A.  I give  them  $5.00  a week 
based  on  full  time. 

Q.  Well,  now,  let  us  get  together  on  this.  I asked  you  if  you  ever 
paid  a girl  less  than  $5.00  a week.  I asked  that  question  without  anv 
oualification,  and  j'ou  said,  no,  you  never  paid  less  than  $5.00  a week? 

To  my  knowledge,  no. 

O.  My  colleague.  Senator  Juul,  asked  you  if  you  ever  had  a girl  by  a 
certain  name  in  your  employ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  you  then  said  that  she  may  have  worked  less  than  full  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  she  did  she  got  smaller  pay?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  -uaid  a girl  less  than  $5.00  a week  regardless^  of  the 
amount  of  time  she  worked?  A.  If  the}’-  only  work  a part  of  the  time  we 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


383 


lave  not  paid  them  the  full  amount.  If  they  lay  off  a day  during  the  week 
hey  do  not  get  their  full  wages. 

Q.  Unquestionably  that  is  true,  but  you  say  you  may  have  had  a 
jirl  work  eight  hours  a day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  girls  working  eight  hours  a day  that  get  less  than 
>5.00  a week?  A.  I do  not  think  so. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  enumerated  twenty-three.  Is  there  a class 
lelow  that  twenty-three?  A.  No. 

Q.  Who  drew  up  this  statement  as  to  the  girls?  A.  The  book- 
keeper. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  that  statement  is  correct  A.  I am 
iretty  sure  it  is,  it  was  copied  from  the  figures  there  when  we  went  over 
\he  books. 

Q.  You  believe  you  are  in  a position  to  swear  to  the  accuracy  of  this 
itatement?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  You  declare  under  oath  that  no  girl  has  ever  been  paid  less  than 
>5.00  a week  by  your  corporation?  A.  That  is,  any  girl  that  has  worked 
ler  full  time  has  not  been  paid  less  than  that. 

Q.  By  full  time  what  do  you  mean?  A.  Fifty-four  and  fifty-three 
.lours  a week. 

Q.  I am  trying  to  get  at  what  you  pay  the  girls  that  don’t  work  fifty- 
bur  hours  a week.  A.  We  pay  whatever  is  coming  to  them.  If  they 
lon’t  work  full  time  they  get  the  fraction  of  whatever  their  wages  are. 

Q.  You  have  never  paid  any  girls  less  than  $5.00  a week  for  fifty-four 
lOurs’  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Five  dollars  for  fifty-four  hours’  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  less  than  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  a girl  works  five  hours  a day  for  your  company  she  gets  50 
:ents  of  pay,  approximately?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  base  what  you  pay  her  on  so  much  per  hour?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  prefer  to  have  us  understand  that  your  scale  is  based 
argely  on  an  hour  unit  rather  than  a weekly  unit?  A.  It  is  based  on  a 
veekly  unit  and  an  hour  unit.  The  weekly  unit  is  based  on  the  hour  unit. 

Q.  How  often  do  your  girls  leave  you?  A.  Well,  these  girls  we  find 
f we  can  keep  a girl  for  three  months  she  will  probably  stay  with  us  for  a 
food,  long  time.  • 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  a long  time?  A.  That  may  be  from  three 

0 five  years,  or  longer  than  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  greatest  period  of  time  that  any  girl  now  in  your 
mploy  has  been  in  your  employ?  A.  I think  fifteen  years. 

Q.  How  much  is  she  getting  now?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  her  name?  A.  Miss  Peterson. 

1 Q.  She  is  your  forelady?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

, Q.  How  did  she  begin,  in  what  position?  A.  She  told  me  she  began 
n the  factory,  working  on  a knitting  machine.  She  said  that  she  was 
arning  $4.50  a week  when  she  started. 

Q.  That  is  twenty-five  years  ago?  A.  Fifteen  years  ago. 

Q.  And  now  she  is  getting  $25.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  Outside  of  Miss  Peterson,  what  is  the  greatest  period  of  time  that 
ny  woman  now  in  your  employ  has  been  working  for  you?  A.  I could 
lot  say;  I would  have  to  look  over  the  records. 

Q.  Have  you  some  that  have  been  there  for  ten  years?  A.  Oh, 
es;  probably  some  have  been  there  eleven  or  twelve. 

Q.  Have  you  any  woman  that  has  been  there  ten  years  or  more 
vho  is  getting  less  than  $12.00  a week?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  What  are  they  getting?  A.  Well,  ten  years — well,  I could  not 
ay,  because  I do  not  know  what  they  started  at.  Probably  those  that  are 
arning  the  most  were  there  first. 

I SENATOR  JUUL:  There  are  118  girls  below  w'hat  we  have  called 


I 


384 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


the  bread  line  here.  It  would  seem  when  they  get  up  above  the  bread 
line  they  drop  out  pretty  quick — there  are  fifty-three  above  the  bread  line 
and  fifteen  on  the  line. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Mr.  Rubens,  you  have  one  woman  at  $25.00, 
that  is  Miss  Peterson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  next  highest  scale  you  have  is  $15.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  only  two  at  that  figure?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  at  $14.00  and  one  at  $13.00.  Then  from  this  we  are  to  under- 
stand that  those  women,  who  have  been  in  your  employ  ten  or  eleven  or 
thirteen  years,  that  no  one  of  them  after  that  long  service  is  getting  more 
than  $15.00  a week?  A.  I do  not  think  they  are. 

Q.  It  does  not  open  up  a vista  particularly  bright  to  them,  does  it? 
A.  No,  sir;  it  does  not. 

Q.  There  are  what  escapes?  They  may  possibly  go  up  to  $15.00  at 
the  end  of  ten  or  twelve  years’  service?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  of  the  escapes  from  that  situation  is  marriage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  marry?  A.  We  had  about  twenty  girls  get 
married  last  year. 

Q.  That  is  one  escape?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Another  escape  you  have  sort  of  touched  on  in  your  earlier  testi- 
mony here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  told  of  your  own  experience  with  men  hanging  around  the 
doors  of  the  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a woman  who  came  in  under  the  cloak  of  being  a worker, 
that  is  another  escape?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  escape — what  other  escape?  A.  Death  is  the 
next  one,  I suppose. 

Q.  Which  is  the  kinder,  white  slavery  or  death?  A.  Death  by  all 
means. 

Q.  It  is  marriage,  death  or  white  slavery?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  a conservative  business  man,  do  you  think  that  is  a fair  system 
that  leaves  only  three  avenues  of  escape  for  these  girls?  A.  Death  and 
marriage — even  marriage  is  not  an  escape  for  some. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  makes  it  look  like  a pretty  dubious  case  for 
118  girls?  A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  Either  death  or  marriage — and  the  percentage  ^s  small;  the  death 
rate  is  about  thirteen  or  fourteen  to  1,000  in  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Air.  Rubens  has  been  kind  enough  to  give 
us  evidence  of  a direct  nature.  He  has  been  frank. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  When  you  consider  what  3"Our  girls  get  and  the 
low  wages  that  is  paid,  and  they  have  to  pay  their  own  way,  do  you  con- 
sider that  the  person  who  goes  around  among  them  and  tries  to  tempi 
them  would  have  an  easy  time  at  present?  A.  In  our  case  there  was  nol 
any  of  them  that  had  an  easy  time. 

Q.  From  where  do  you  expect  that  deficit  which  you  yourself  admit 
exists  between  their  wages  and  their  cost  of  living,  where  do  you  expect 
that  to  be  made  up?  The  girls  give  you  all  the  time  thej^  have  got?  A 
They  do. 

Q.  Where  do  you  expect  she  is  going  to  make  up  the  difference  that 
you  do  not  pay  her  when  she  has  her  wants  like  ever^-  human  being?  A 
Certainly. 

Q.  If  an  employer  does  not  furnish  sufficient  money  to  cover  thos« 
things  they  have  got  to  be  made  up  in  some  waJ^  Now,  where  do  yoi 
suppose  these  girls  wEen  they  grow  desperate,  where  do  3’ou  suppose  the3 
go  to  cover  the  deficit?  A.  The3f  may  go  wrong. 

Q.  Your  business  does  not  provide  an3"  remed3"  to  cover  that?  A 
At  present  it  does  not. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  3'ou  heard  the  play  that  is  being  pro 
duced  here  by  Helen  Ware,  I think  it  is?  A.  No,  sir;  I have  not. 

Q.  You  had  better  go  and  see  it.  I am  not  advertising  an3'  theater 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


385 


but  it  is  a good  play.  In  regard  to  a minimum  wage  for  these  women, 
now,  if  there  was  a Federal  law,  what  do  you  think  a girl  can  live  on 
honestly  and  clothe  herself  and  have  good  board  and  a good  room,  and 
live  like  a lady,  not  a rich  lady,  but  decently,  but  live  right  and  be  decent 
and  moral,  tell  us  your  judgment?  A.  I judge  about  $8.00. 

Q.  That  is  the  general  opinion  of  most  of  the  employers  whom  we 
have  met.  I suppose  you  take  apprentices  in,  girls  of  fourteen  or  fifteen 
years  of  age?  A.  No,  sir;  we  don’t  take  them  in  at  a less  salary. 

Q.  You  begin  them  at  $5.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  some  stores  they  take  in  apprentices?  A.  We  don’t  have  any. 

Q.  You  start  them  on  $5.00  a week  and  increase  them  as  they  go 
along?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I suppose  you  have  heard  about  these  large  stores  in  question  and 
their  girls’  wages?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I understand  some  15,000  or  20,000  girls  in  Chicago  have  had  their 
salaries  increased  from  $5.00  to  $8.00,  and  their  employers  have  done  it 
with  a good  grace,  and  all  these  meetings  are  helping.  Do  you  want  to 
meet  these  efforts  in  Chicago  and  do  what  you  can  in  the  increase  of  the 
wages  of  these  girls?  Don’t  you  think  you  could  persuade  your  people  to 
increase  these  $5.00  girls  to  $8.00  a week?  It  would  not  injure  your  profits 
materially.  1 am  talking  in  a friendly  way;  there  is  no  intention  to  force 
anybody.  Would  not  that  be  possible?  A.  It  would  be  possible  to  do  it, 
but  we  would  not  be  able  to  raise  them  as  fast  as  we  do  now  after  six 
months. 

Q.  These  cheap  employes  have  to  live?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Girls  working  for  $3.00  or  $4.00  or  $5.00  a week?  _A.  It  could 
probably  be  done  some  way  after  they  had  been  there  a certain  period  and 
we  found  out  whether  they  would  remain,  we  could  possibly  do  that. 

Q.  During  the  time  that  the  girl  was  getting  $4.50  or  so  a week — I 
had  a talk  with  one  and  she  paid  $3.50  for  board  and  carfare  and  had  two 
shirtwaists,  and  she  had  to  wash  one  every  night  to  make  a good  appearance 
on  the  floor  or  the  floor  woman  would  send  her  home,  and  she  said,  “Can 
you  blame  me?” — she  turned  out  bad.  Now,  I said,  “If  you  had  been 
getting  $8.00  or  $10.00  a week  would  you  have  gone  to  the  bad?”  and  she 
said,  “No.”  Now,  isn’t  it  best  to  help  them  if  we  can?  A.  Certainly. 

Q.  I understand  that  these  people  hang  around  the  restaurants  and 
lunch  places  and  try  to  persuade  the  girls  to  go  with  them  and  become 
“white  slaves.”  Have  you  had  that  occur  in  your  place?  A.  We  have 
had  them  hanging  in  the  halls. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  these  restaurants?  A.  No,  sir;  because  very 
few  of  the  girls  go  outside  to  eat.  The  most  of  them  bring  their  lunches 
with  them. 

Q.  Then  you  think  if  there  was  a Federal  law,  or  a State  law,  fixing 
a minimum  wage  at  $8.00  a week,  it  would  be  better?  A.  I think  it  would. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  think  it  would  be  practical  to  establish 
hotels  for  these  girls — have  hotels  for  these  girls?  A.  I think  it  would  be 
a good  idea  if  it  could  be  done. 

Q.  Couldn’t  it  be  done?  A.  I have  not  gone  into  the  matter,  but  I 
suppose  it  could  be  done;  seeing  what  we  have  done  in  that  way  for  men,  it 
could  probably  be  done  for  women  on  a little  bit  better  scale. 

Q.  Could  you  furnish  them  with  a room  for  $2.50  or  $3.00  a week? 
A.  I don’t  know  about  it,  it  possibly  could  be  done. 

Q.  And  make  a profit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  What  is  the  sanitary  conditions  of  your 
building?  A.  They  are  very  good. 

Q.  The  girls  stand  all  day  at  their  work?  A.  No,  sir;  very  few  of 
them  have  to  stand  to  do  any  work  at  all. 

Q.  Any  machinery  there?  A.  Yes,  quite  a bit  of  machinery. 

Q.  Is  it  safe-guarded  according  to  the  laws  of  the  State?  A.  I be- 
lieve it  is. 


386 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Do  the  inspectors  come  around?  A.  Yes,  once  or  twice  a year, 
and  so  far  they  have  made  no  complaint. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Do  you  belong  to  the  Manufacturers’  Associa- 
tion? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  the  Manufacturers’  Association  a year? 

A.  I don’t  know  what  the  dues  are,  I think  it  is  $40.00  or  $50.00  a year. 

Q.  How  do  you  like  the  officers  of  that  association?  A.  I don’t 
know;  I never  attended  any  of  their  meetings. 

Q.  When  is  their  next  election?  A.  I don’t  know.  I have  never 
taken  notice.  In  fact,  none  of  the  members  of  our  firm  have  taken  any 
active  interest  in  the  concern. 

Q.  Have  you  received  any  literature  from  the  association  since  the 
inquiry  of  this  Committee  started?  A.  Not  with  regard  to  this  Commit- 
tee, simply  a notice  of  the  fact  that  there  was  to  be  a meeting  or  some- 
hing;  that  is  the  only  literature  we  have  received. 

Q.  You  have  never  been  asked  to  contribute  to  any  fund  to  fight  the 
work  of  this  Committee?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Rubens,  what  do  these  girls  do  in  the  evening,  what  is  their 
social  life,  if  you  know?  A.  I don’t  know. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  That  is  all.  I want  to  thank  you.  You 
have  been  a fair-minded  and  frank  witness,  and  we  have  appreciated  it. 

Esther  Berenson’s  Testimony. 

ESTHER  BERENSON,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  through 
an  interpreter,  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Esther  Berenson. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  Washburn,  No.  3913. 

Q.  What  is  your  nationality — where  were  you  born,  what  county 
were  you  born  in?  A.  In  Russia. 

INTERPRETER;  She  is  a Russian  Jewess. 

Q.  You  are  married?  A.  Yes,  sir  . 

Q.  How  many  children  have  you?  A.  Three  children. 

Q.  You  have  a husband?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  working?  A.  Yes,  he  is  working;  but  it  is  a birthday  for 
the  Jewish.  . . 

Q.  Who  are  you  working  for — who  are  you  working  for? 

INTERPRETER:  She  does  not  know. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know,  or  does  she  get  work  home,  or  does  she  work 
somewhere  else?  A.  No,  she  is  working  in  the  shop. 

Q.  Who  owns  the  shop?  A.  She  does  not  know. 

Q.  What  is  their  address?  A.  She  works  on  Jefferson  Street;  she 
is  working  in  a factory. 

Q.  Is  the  firm  Rosenwald  & Weil?  A.  She  don’t  know. 

Q.  Ask  her  if  she  knows  how  much  money  she  brings  home  Satur- 
day night  for  the  work  she  does?  A.  Three  dollars  and  forty  cents  a 
week. 

Q.  Does  she  get  that  all  at  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a day  do  you  work?  A.  She  works  from  7:30 
till  6 o’clock. 

Q.  Every  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  week?  A.  She  does  not  work  on  Saturday. 

Q.  This  $3.40  represents  five  days’  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  work  for  them  on  Sunday?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  line  of  work  do  you  do?  A.  On  coats;  she  is  cleaning 
coats. 

Q.  How  many  coats  do  you  clean  a day?  A.  She  doesn’t  know; 
they  all  work  together. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


3S7 


Q.  But  she  is  there  five  days  a week,  from  7:30  in  the  morninsr  until 
6 o’clock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Thirty-six  years. 

Q.  What  does  your  husband  earn  a week?  A.  Nine  dollars  a week. 

Q.  There  are  three  children;  do  any  of  the  children  work?  A.  One 

child  began  to  work,  a very  young  child.  She  is  written  down  as  sixteen. 

Q.  Who  is  he  working  for?  A.  She  doesn’t  know. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  now  who  it  is  that  you  are  working  for?  A. 

No. 

Q.  Are  you  afraid  to  tell  this  Committee  who  you  are  working  for? 
A.  She  says  she  doesn’t  know. 

Q.  Are  you  afraid  of  losing  your  job?  A.  She  doesn’t  know  the 
name. 

Q.  Is  she  afraid  of  telling  us  who  she  is  working  for  for  fear  of  losing 
her  job?  A.  No,  she  swears  she  doesn’t  know. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Sergeant,  call  Mr.  Morris  Rosenwald  of  the 
firm  of  Rosenwald  & Weil. 

THE  SERGEANT:  I have  already  been  there  twice  and  they  claim 
they  are  both  out  of  town. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  tried  to  locate  them  at  all?  A. 
Yes,  I went  to  their  houses — 4752  Grand  Boulevard  for  Mr.  Rosenwald 
this  morning,  but  they  are  both  out  of  town,  both  of  them.  I have  got 
girls  from  the  shop  here. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Is  the  cashier  at  his  place  of  business  now? 

THE  SERGEANT:  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Send  to  the  establishment  of  Rosenwald  & 
Weil  and  summon  the  cashier  and  have  him  bring  with  him  the  last  week’s 
pay  roll. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  there  a member  of  the  firm  of  Rosenwald  & 
Weil  in  this  room? 

THE  SERGEANT:  No,  sir;  they  are  not  subpoenaed. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I was  told  be  was  here  without  being  sub- 

I poenaed.  If  he  is,  he  will  please  come  to  the  front  and  be  sworn.  Is 
there  a member  of  the  firm  of  Rosenwald  & Weil  here  in  the  room — ask 
the  witness.  I think  these  witnesses  are  afraid  to  testify. 

THE  SERGEANT:  Here  is  a woman  that  will  testify. 

I Mary  Davidowitz’s  Testimony. 

I MARY  DAVIDOWITZ,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as 
follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Can  you  talk  Russian?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  talk  German?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mary  Davidowitz. 

Q.  Your  address?  A.  1309  L^nion  is  the  number. 

Q.  You  live  south  of  Twelfth  Street?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

(To  the  Interpreter.) — Q.  Ask  what  street  she  lives  near.  A.  Llnion 
and  Maxwell. 

Q.  She  lives  at  Union  and  Maxwell,  and  the  number  is  supposed  to 

be  1309.  Are  you  married?  A.  Yes,  she  is  married,  but  her  husband  left 

her. 

Q.  How  long  since  he  left  her?  A.  Three  years. 

Q.  What  firm  are  you  working  for?  A.  She  doesn’t  know. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  Jefferson  and  Twelfth  Place. 

Q.  Is  that  Rosenwald  & Weil’s  factory?  A.  She  doesn’t  know. 

Q.  Are  you  afraid  of  telling  us?  A.  She  is  not. 

Q.  Is  she  afraid  to  tell  us?  A.  She  is  not  afraid;  she  said  there  is 

nothing  to  be  afraid  of,  but  she  doesn’t  know. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  make  a week?  A.  Four  dollars. 


388 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  When  do  you  start  to  work  in  the  morning  on  Monday?  A. 
From  7:30  to  6 o’clock. 

Q.  You  work  how  many  days  in  a week?  A.  She  works  all  the  week 
from  Monday  until  Saturday  in  the  afternoon. 

Q.-'  Do  you  work  on  Saturday?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  work  on  Saturday  for  the  same  $4.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  get  paid  anything  for  overtime?  A.  Twenty-one 
cents  for  three  hours. 

Q.  When  she  works  overtime  she  gets  21  cents  for  three  hours?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  pay  you  supper  money  besides?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  worked  for  them?  A.  Three  months. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  more  or  any  less  than  you  are  making  i 
now?  A.  No,  she  never  got  any  more  than  that. 

Q.  Did  she  ever  get  any  less?  A.  Never  got  any  less. 

Q.  You  got  $4.00  from  the  start?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  work  do  you  do?  A.  She  is  cleaning  coats. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  now  for  whom  you  are  working?  A.  She  I 
doesn’t  know. 

Q.  But  she  knows  the  place  of  business  at  the  corner  of  what?  A. 
Jefferson  and  Twelfth  Place. 

THE  INTERPRETER:  That  place  is  Rosenwald  & Weil’s.  This 
woman  don’t  know  the  place. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Has  this  woman  any  children?  A.  She  has 
no  children. 

Q.  She  supports  herself  on  this  $4.00  a week?  A.  She  boards. 

Q.  How  much  does  her  board  cost  her?  A.  She  pays  $6.00  for  room 
and  then  she  makes  her  meals  herself. 

Q.  Six  dollars  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  she  gets  $16.00  and  pays  $6.00  for  her  room.  That  leaves 
$10.00.  What  does  she  eat — how  much  does  the  food  cost  her?  A.  Well, 
she  doesn’t  know  exactly,  she  says  when  she  has  more  money  she  eats 
better  and  if  she  has  less  she  eats  less. 

Q.  Let  us  find  out  what  she  generally  has  for  breakfast.  A.  Half  a 
pound  of  meat  and  coffee  and  bread. 

Q.  What  kind  of  meat  is  this — what  does  she  pay  for  that  half  a 
pound  of  meat?  A.  Eight  cents  for  half  a pound. 

Q.  What  kind  of  meat  is  it?  A.  Chop. 

Q.  Will  she  be  docked  for  the  time  she  is  here  before  this  Com- 
mittee now?  A.  She  doesn’t  know. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Before  we  go  any  further  with  the  summoning 
here  of  these  people,  to  whom  $1.00  is  a fortune,  I suggest  that  the  Com- 
mittee pay  each  of  these  witnesses  $1.00,  and  if  the  State  of  Illinois  will 
not  pay  it,  we  will  pay  it  individually,  because  it  will  be  a hardship  for 
these  people  to  lose  $1.00  in  coming  here.  A dollar  to  them  means  a 
fortune.  I do  not  think  they  ought  to  be  permitted  to  go  away  from  this 
Committee  without  being  paid  the  $1.00.  People  that  will  make  a human 
being  work  that  way  will  dock  them.  I think  they  would  dock  them  for  a 
minute. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Give  them  $1.00  an  hour. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think  the  Committee  should  see  that  these 
witnesses  be  paid  $1.00,  and,  if  necessary,  we  will  club  together  for  it. 

CHAIRMAN:  And  if  any  of  these  women  are  discharged  because  of 
the  evidence  they  give  here,  the  Committee  will  make  it  known,  the  name 
of  the  employer  who  discharged  them  for  that  reason. 

Q.  How  much  do  your  clothes  cost  you  a month?  A.  She  says  she 
don’t  know  exactly. 

Q.  How  often  does  she  buy  a new  dress?  A.  She  wears  one  until 
she  cannot  wear  it,  and  then  she  gets  another  one. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


389 


O.  How  much  doe'  she  pay  for  a dress?  A.  She  paid  for  suits 
.$15.00. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Well,  1 am  afraid  this  line  of  questioning 
will  prove  unprofitable  because  of  the  element  of  pride  that  enters  into  it. 
These  people  have  pride  the  same  as  everybody. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  They  go  to  a second-hand  place  to  buy  their 
clothes. 

Hyman  M.  Goldberg’s  Testimony. 

HYMAN  M.  GOLDBERG,  having  been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as 
follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Hyman  M.  Gold- 
berg. 

Q.  With  what  concern  are  you  connected?  A.  With  myself. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  business?  A.  Goldberg’s  Millinery. 

Q.  Incorporated?  /\.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  stores  have  you?  A.  Two. 

Q.  Where  are  they  located.  A.  732  West  Twelfth  Street  and  717. 

Q.  You  hire  and  discharge  your  own  employes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  both  stores?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  employ?  A.  Twenty-six. 

Q.  Twenty-six  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  that  you  pay  any  of  these  girls?  A.  Nine  fifty 
a week. 

Q.  You  have  twenty-six  girls  working  for  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  any  of  those  twenty-six  receive  less  than  $9.50  a week?  A. 
The  apprentices. 

Q.  How  much  do  they  get?  A.  Two  get  $4.50  and  one  gets  $5.50. 

Q.  With  the  exception  of  those  three,  all  of  your  girls  get  $9.50  a 
week  or  more?  A.  Only  two  get  $9.50,  the  rest  is  more. 

Q.  They  get  so  much  a week,  depending  on  the  number  of  hours  they 
work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  piece  system  in  your  place?  A.  No,  sir;  the  ten- 
hour  system. 

Q.  Ten  hours  a day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a week  is  that?  A.  Sixty  hours. 

Q.  They  work  full  time  on  Saturday?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  time  during  the  last  two  years  when  you 
have  paid  any  girl,  not  an  apprentice,  less  than  $9.50  a week?  A.  Well,  I 
guess  so. 

Q.  Have  you  during  the  last  two  years  paid  any  girl  but  an  appren- 
tice, less  than  $4.50  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  you  have  paid  any  girl?  A.  Well,  the  ap- 
prentices when  they  first  start  in,  when  the  father  or  mother  bring  them 
down  there,  they  come  in  my  place  and  I always  start  them  in  with  their 
carfare  and  lunch. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  apprentices  have  you  got  in  your  employ 
now?  A.  Three  of  those. 

Q.  You  say  you  do  take  some  apprentices  and  give  them  carfare  and 
their  lunch?  A.  No,  sir;  I give  them  money,  $3.00  a week  to  cover  car- 
fare and  lunch. 

Q.  Coming  down  to  dollars  and  cents,  what  is  the  least  amount  you 
have  paid  any  one  of  the  apprentices  during  the  last  year  or  so?  A.  The 
least  is  $3.00. 

Q.  During  the  last  two  years?  A.  The  last  two  years  I could  not 
e::actly  remember;  I can  remember  tbe  last  year. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  any  of  these  girls  $1.50  a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Never  in  your  life?  A.  No,  sir. 


390  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  You  would  not  do  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  some  $6.00  or  $7.00?  A.  Those  were  girls  that 
worked  extra  evenings. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you?  A.  I have  more  than  twenty-six 
girls. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  all  told?  A.  I could  not  figure  out 
exactly;  I have  girls  that  work  evenings  for  me,  stenographers  that  work 
there. 

Q.  They  come  down  at  7 o’clock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  do  they  work?  A.  Half-past  nine,  two  and  a half 
hours. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  girls  come  down  in  the  evening?  A,  Well, 
I could  not  tell  just  exactly,  but  I think  there  is  ten  of  them. 

Q.  About  ten  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  are  those  girls?  A.  All  big  girls. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  big  girls?  A.  Well,  they  are  all  over  twenty. 

Q.  Some  of  them  are  stenographers  during  the  daytime?  A.  Yes, 
two  or  three  of  them  are  stenographers,  and  some  of  them  are  sales- 
ladies in  the  downtown  stores. 

Q.  They  work  nights  in  both  of  your  stores?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  many  in  one  store  and  so  many  in  the  other  store?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Who  is  their  overseer— are  you  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  one  woman,  a forewoman  who  is  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  both  places?  A.  No,  sir;  in  732. 

Q.  You  take  care  of  one  place,  and  this  woman  you  mention  takes 
care  of  the  other  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  girls  go  out  every  night?  A.  No,  sir;  not  every  night; 
three  nights  a week. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  them  for  their  services?  A.  Well,  the  lowest  I 
pay  them  is  $1.00  for  the  two  and  a half  hours.  Some  get  as  high  as  $1.50. 

Q.  They  work  two  and  a half  hours?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  makes  seven  and  a half  hours  a week  they  work.  A 

dollar  a week  is  the  lowest  you  pay?  A.  A dollar  a night.  Some  of  them 

only  come  one  night  a week  and  some  come  three  and  some  come  every 
night. 

Q.  You  never  have  paid  any  of  these  girls  less  than  $1.00  for  the 
night’s  work?  A.  No,  I am  paying  as  high  as  $2.00. 

Q.  You  would  not  pay  less  than  $1.00?  A.  They  would  not  come  for 

less  than  $1.00. 

Q.  If  they  would  come  for  25  cents,  how  much  would  you  pay  them? 
A.  I never  had  any  experience;  I could  not  tell  you.  Those  girls  I pay 
some  as  high  as  $2.00. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  are  a good  business  man,  and  you  buy  these 
women  as  cheap  as  you  can?  A.  No,  sir;  if  I get  good  girls  I do  not 
care  for  the  money.  When  a girl  comes  to  me  for  a job  I tell  her  if  she 
will  make  good  she  can  name  her  own  price. 

Q.  You  tell  them  that  when  thej"  come  to  work  for  you?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  That  is  what  we  call  taking  them  up  on  the  mountains  and  show- 
ing them  the  green  valleys.  I once  worked  for  $9.00  a week  and  that  is 

the  way  they  treated  me.  A.  It  is  different  times  now. 

Q.  Now,  when  these  girls  leave  the  place,  where  do  they  go,  do  they 
go  directly  home  under  escort?  A.  Yes,  I know  them  all  nearly,  and 
they  have  parents. 

Q.  You  never  had  any  mien  around  the  place  there  tridng  to  entice 
these  girls  away?  A.  No,  sir;  I would  not  have  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Are  you  doing  a pretty  good  business?  A. 
Well,  pretty  fair;  yes,  sir. 


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391 


Q.  Your  business  is  an  office  business,  isn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  an  evening  business.  The  fact  that  you  have  evening  busi- 
ness would  not  excuse  you  from  treating  the  girls  that  work  evenings  any 
different  than  any  other  merchant  would  treat  girls  working  in  the  day- 
time, would  it?  A.  Well,  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Well,  if  your  business  necessitates  the  working  of  girls  evenings, 
do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  those  girls  should  not  be  paid  on  a good 
living  basis  the  same  as  girls  working  in  the  daytime?  A.  No,  sir.  But 
they  have  steady  jobs  and  only  work  nights  for  extra  money. 

Q.  You  don’t  give  them  a chance  to  take  steady  jobs?  A.  I do; 
but  they  would  not  do  it. 

Q.  Would  you  hire  those  girls  all  the  week  and  work  them  the  legal 
number  of  nine  hours  a day  and  pay  them  a full  week’s  wages?  A.  I 
would  if  they  would  come. 

Q.  Have  you  tried  them  to  see?  A.  Many  times. 

Q.  How  much  have  you  offered  them?  A.  I offered  them  if  they 
would  work  six  evenings  I would  pay  them  $9.00  a week. 

Q.  How  many  hours  would  they  work  in  three  evenings?  A.  Three 
hours  a night,  eighteen  hours  a week,  but  that  would  be  only  in  the 
season. 

Q.  When  is  your  season?  A.  This  year  it  began  the  15th  of  March, 
but  it  usually  begins  in  April  to  the  1st  of  July  and  from  the  1st  of  Septem- 
ber to  the  1st  of  December.  Of  course,  I could  not  keep  them  steady 
during  the  dull  season;  I have  not  got  any  work  at  all. 

Q.  You  drop  them  when  you  are  through  with  them?  A.  I do 
except  some  I keep  steady  the  whole  year. 

Q.  Do  you  know  all  the  girls  you  employ  in  the  evening,  all  of  the 
girls  that  have  employment  in  the  daytime?  A.  Yes,  pretty  nearly  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  do  you  know  them?  A.  I know  them 
personally. 

Q.  You  know  them  personally?  A.  I know  them  personally,  most 
of  them.  They  are  neighbors  of  mine,  pretty  near  all  of  them  live  in  the 
same  neighborhood. 

Q.  In  order  to  live  in  your  line  of  business,  it  is  necessary  for  the 

girls  to  work  at  two  jobs?  A.  Only  a few.  Some  of  the  girls  work  all 

the  year  around. 

Q.  I didn’t  hear  all  your  testimony.  The  work  they  do  for  you  at 
night,  the  pay  they  receive  from  you.  would  it  enable  those  girls  to  live 
out  of  what  they  get  from  you?  A.  I don’t  think  so;  no,  sir. 

Q.  They  have  got  to  take  a chance  on  finding  other  jobs?  A.  They 
come  to  me  when  they  have  other  jobs  in  other  places,  they  come  to  me. 

Q.  If  they  didn’t  have  another  job?  A.  I would  take  them  steady. 

Q.  Have  you  any  that  are  working  now  for  $9.00  a week?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  Steady?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  There  are  three  girls. 

Q.  At  $9.00  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  that  get  less  than  $9.00?  A.  None  with 
the  exception  of  that  three. 

Q.  And  those  girls  work  for  you  three  nights  a week?  A.  No,  sir; 
those  three  only  work  in  the  day,  three  apprentice  girls. 

Q.  You  make  hats?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  sell  them  at  retail?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  pay  none  of  your  girls  less  than  $9.00  a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  clerks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Girl  clerks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  pay  none  of  those  clerks  less  than  $9.00?  A.  Two  of  them 
$22.50  and  one  $18.00  a week. 

Q.  You  are  able  to  compete  with  some  of  the  State  Street  stores  in 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


prices?  A.  I don’t  think  so;  if  I should  do  it,  I would  make  more  money 
than  I do,  a good  deal. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  pay  your  girls  from  $9.00  to 
$22.00  a week  as  salesladies  selling  goods?  A.  In  the  store. 

Q.  We  have  found  stores  in  this  part  of  town  that  pay  a great  deal 
less  than  that.  Now,  I am  told  you  have  the  name  of  selling  the  cheapest 
millinery  in  the  city,  and  these  shop  girls  come  to  your  place  to  buy,  is 
that  correct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  girls  that  work  daytimes  come  down  nights  to  buy  hats? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  can  pay  $9.00  to  $20.00  a week,  why  cannot  these  high- 
priced  stores  down  here,  why  cannot  they  afford  it,  too?  A.  Because  I 
am  satisfied  if  I make  $5,000  in  my  two  stores;  I feel  perfectly  happy. 

Q.  That  is  exactly  what  we  have  been  trying  to  find  out  for  weeks. 
A.  I am  as  happy  as  can  be,  and  so  is  my  family. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  were  your  profits  last  year,  do  you  care 
to  tell?  A.  No,  sir;  I could  not  tell  you.  What  I have  left  in  the  bank 
is  for  myself.  I have  made  in  the  last  three  years,  besides  my  living, 
$15,000  to  $20,000. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  can  manufacture  hats  and  sell  them  to 
these  shop  girls  cheaper  than  these  stores  in  this  part  of  town  who  pay 
them  $5.00  a week,  while  you  pay  $9.00  to  twenty?  A.  Yes,  and  I pay 
one  lady  $35.00,  and  one  young  lady  $27.50,  and  one  $25.00. 

Q.  Have  you  got  cash  girls  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  cash  girls?  A.  No,  sir;  those  two  apprentices  are  the  only 
ones. 

Q.  Do  you  belong  to  the  Manufacturers’  Association?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  Well,  not  because  I don’t  like  them,  but  I have 
not  got  the  facilities.  I do  not  see  any  necessity  for  it. 

Rebecca  Schultz’s  Testimony. 

REBECCA  SCHULTZ,  being  first  duly  sworn,  by  Senator  Juul,  was 
examined  through  an  interpreter,  and  testified  as  follows: 

Q.  Do  you  understand  English?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  language  do  you  speak;  what  is  your  language,  what  is 
your  nationality?  A.  Jewish. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Rebecca  Schultz. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  Morgan  street. 

Q.  At  what  number?  A.  1230  Morgan  street. 

Q How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen  years. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  you  are  not  fifteen?  A.  No,  I am  not  fifteen.  I am 
seventeen. 

Q.  What  year  were  you  born  in?  I don’t  know,  but  I know  I am 

seventeen  years  old. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  are  seventeen  but  you  look  like  fifteen. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country?  A.  Nine  months. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  for  a living?  A.  I baste  coats. 

Q.  In  what  place  of  business;  for  whom  are  you  working?  A.  I 
don’t  know  the  name;  I am  not  working  long  there  so  I don’t  know  the 
name  of  my  employer. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  the  name?  A.  No. 

Q.  If  you  knew  it  would  you  be  afraid  of  telling  it?  A.  No,  I would 
not  be  afraid. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  know  who  you  are  working  for?  A.  No. 

Q.  Where  is  the  place  where  a'ou  are  working?  A.  In  Jefferson 
street  near  12th  place. 

Q.  On  Jefferson  street  near  12th  place?  A.  \ es. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  make  a week.  Becca?  A.  Four  dollars. 


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393 


Q.  Four  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is,  if  you  work  all  week?  A.  Yes,  if  I work  all  week.  ■ 

Q.  Do  you  work  out  of  the  shop  too?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  work  on  Saturdays?  A.  Yes,  but  I don’t  work  on 
Sunday. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  you  work  a day;  when  do  you  go  to  work 
in  the  morning?  A.  About  seven. 

Q.  And  when  do  you  quit  in  the  evening?  A.  Six. 

Q.  You  go  to  work  at  what  time  in  the  morning?  A.  At  seven- 
thirty. 

Q.  And  you  quit  when?  A.  At  six. 

Q.  How  much  time  for  lunch,  for  dinner  do  you  have?  A.  Three- 
quarters  of  an  hour. 

Q.  Is  that  Rosenwald  & 'Weil?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  you  know  where  you  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  any  of  the  bosses  since  last  Saturday?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you?  A.  He  didn’t  say  anything. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family?  A.  I am  all  alone  here; 

I have  no  family  here. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  here?  A.  My  brother  brought  me  here. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from?  A.  Russia. 

Q.  What  part  of  Russia?  A.  Vilna. 

Q.  You  are  not  talking  Russian  now?  A.  No,  I speak  Yiddish. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Who  told  you  that  you  were  seventeen? 
A.  My  ma  told  me. 

Q.  Your  mother  told  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When?  A.  When  I was  in  Russia  yet. 

Q.  Is  your  mother  living  yet?  A.  Yes,  she  is  living. 

Q.  How  many  years  ago  did  your  mother  tell  you  your  age?  A. 

Before  I left. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  She  gets  your  dollars  a week  and  she  works  for 
the  same  firm,  Mr.  Chairman. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1230  Morgan  street. 

Q.  With  your  brother?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  your  brother  married?  A.  No,  me  and  my  brother  both  stop 
with  strangers. 

Q.  What  do  you  have,  one  room  there?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  to  have  a room  apiece?  A.  Sure,  we  have  both 

separate  rooms. 

Q.  What  do  you  have  to  pay  for  your  room?  A.  Three  and  a half. 

Q.  A month?  A.  A month. 

Q.  Do  you  have  that  room  alone?  A.  I pay  three  and  a half  a 
week  for  board  and  room. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Three  or  three  and  a half?  A.  I pay  three  and 
a half  a week  for  room  and  board. 

Q.  That  leaves  you  fifty  cents  a week  for  shoes,  clothing  and  other 
necessaries?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  When  did  you  buy  your  last  dress?  A.  I 
didn’t  buy  a dress  here;  when' my  brother  brought  me  to  this  country  nine 
months  ago  he  bought  everything  for  me,  ever  since  then  I haven’t  bought 
anything;  I haven’t  money  enough  to  buy  any  clothes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  Six  weeks. 

Q.  Now,  during  those  six  weeks  you  have  paid  three  and  a half  for 
board?  A.  Yes.' 

Q.  Out  of  the  four  dollars  a week  that  you  get  you  pay  out  three 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


dollars  and  a half  for  board  and  room;  how  much  of  those  four  dollars 
do  you  have  left?  A.  I have  the  three  dollars. 

Q.  You  have  been  working  six  weeks  and  you  have  saved  the  entire 
three  dollars?  A.  Yes;  I have  it. 

Q.  What  are  you  going  to  do  with  that;  what  are  you  saving  it  for? 

A.  I don’t  know;  I think  I will  buy  a dress  with  it,  but  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Are  you  going  to  wait  until  you  have  enough?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  your  washing  done?  A.  I am  doing  it  all  by  myself. 

Q.  You  do  the  washing  by  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  amusement  of  any  sort.  A.  I go  sometimes 
to  a theatre. 

Q.  Who  takes  you?  A.  My  brother  sometimes  takes  me. 

Q.  Do  you  also  do  your  brother’s  washing?  A.  No,  the  Mrs. 
washes  for  him. 

Q.  Will  they  dock  you  for  the  time  that  you  are  absent  today?  A. 
Surely  they  will  do  it. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  get  this  job?  A.  My  brother  got  it 
for  me. 

Q.  What  does  your  brother  do?  A.  He  is  a tailor. 

Q.  What  does  he  make?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Who  asked  you  your  age  when  you  went  to  get  this  position  there? 

A.  What? 

Q.  When  you  went  to  get  your  position  what  member  of  the  firm,  i 
or  what  official  of  the  firm,  asked  your  age?  A.  Why,  the  boss,  the  i 
foreman. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  a position  immediately?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  didn’t  have  you  wait  a while?  A.  He  told  me  to  wait. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  Mr.  Coan  there? 

MR.  COAN;  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  This  is  one  of  the  witnesses  that  you  will  have 
to  hand  a dollar  to. 

MR.  COAN:  They  will  all  get  it  before  they  get  through. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Better  give  it  to  her  before  you  forget  it. 

Sarah  Schwartz’s  Testimony. 

SARAH  SCHWARTZ,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  You  speak  English?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Sarah  Schwartz. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  Nathan  & Company. 

Q.  What  is  the  address?  A.  I don’t  know  as  I can  tell  you;  do  you 
know  the  address,  Lizzie? 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  street  it  is  on?  A.  On  13th  street. 

Q.  Near  what  place?  A.  Twelfth  and  Jefferson. 

Q.  What  kind  of  work  do  you  do  there?  A.  Make  dresses  and  dress- 
ing sacks. 

Q.  What  is  your  job  there,  do  you  operate  a machine?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  do  you  get  paid,  by  the  piece?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  last  week?  A.  Ten  dollars. 

Q.  You  made  ten  dollars  altogether  last  week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  the  week  before?  A Nine  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  that  }"ou  have  made  the  last  year  in  any  one 
week’s  work?  A.  We  had  a new  foreman  there,  before  he  came  we  used 
to  get  good  prices,  then  he  came  and  cut  the  prices  down  on  our  work 
there;  I used  to  make  eight  and  nine  dollars  a week,  but  all  of  a sudden  I had 
two  and  a half  and  three,  and  three  and  a half  dollars,  and  I could  not  make 


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395 


a living  out  of  that,  and  I says  to  him,  “I  am  going  to  quit,”  and  he  says, 
“quit  if  you  want  to,  you  are  welcome  to  quit.” 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Your  foreman  cut  you  from  eight  and  nine 
dollars  a week  until  you  could  only  make  two  and  a half?  A.  Yes,  I made 
two  and  a half  and  three,  and  three  and  a half,  and  so  I seen  that  I could 
not  make  a living  on  it,  and  then  I went  away  from  there,  and  I went 
back  to  a place  on  Market  street  where  I had  worked  once  before  and  they 
gave  me  seven  dollars  a week.  I worked  there  three  months  and  then 
that  foreman  there  they  fired,  and  they  sent  over  and  asked  me  to  come 
back,  so  I went  back  to  the  old  place,  and  now  we  get  good  wages. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  this  two  dollars  and  a half  a week,  where 
you  are  working  now?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  About  six  months  ago,  something 
like  that. 


Q.  You  got  that  for  several  weeks?  A.  I got  it  a couple  of  weeks, 
and  I thought  maybe  I was  not  used  to  the  work,  so  lately  I see  that  I 
could  not  help  that,  so  I quit. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  on  this  kind  of  work?  A.  Oh,  I worked 
there  about  four  or  five  months,  and  then  I left  for  two  or  two  and  a half 
months,  and  then  I came  back  there;  it  will  be  three  weeks,  now  the 
■;  fourth  week. 

^ Q.  How  many  years  have  you  been  working  now?  A.  About  three 
years  I think;  since  fourteen  years  I went  to  work, 
i CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  time  do  you  go  to  work  in  the  morn- 
ing? A.  Seven-thirty. 

I Q.  And  what  time  do  you  have  for  lunch?  A.  Half  an  hour. 

I Q.  Ffrom  twelve  to  twelve-thirty?  A.  Yes. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  much  are  some  of  the  other  girls,  some 
5 of  the  new  girls  making?  A.  Oh,  there  is  a friend  of  mine  to  work  last 
week.  She  worked  about  seven  days  and  she  had  about  five  dollars;  she 
worked  all  week  and  she  made  around  three  and  a half. 


SENATOR  JUUL:  The  whole  week?  A.  "V'es. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  think  there  are  there  working  for  three 
and  a half?  A.  I don’t  know;  we  don’t  look  much  at  each  other’s  pay. 

I,  Q.  You  are  not  supposed  to?  A.  Yes,  but  we  don’t  take  any  interest 

I 


I 

I; 


SENATOR  GORMAN:  How  long  before  that  girl  that  is  earning 
three  and  a half  now  will  be  able  to  earn  as  much  as  you  are?  A.  I can’t 
tell  you. 

Q.  How  long  did  it  take  you  to  get  where  you 'could  earn  as  much 
as  you  are  earning  now?  A.  It  took  me  a couple  of  months  until  I got 
used  to  the  work. 


I 


) 


Q.  During  the  time  you  were  only  earning  two  and  a half,  did  the 
amount  of  work  that  you  were  doing  or  the  class  of  work  that  you  were 
doing  remain  the  same  as  you  are  doing  now?  A.  Yes,  but  they  changed 
the  prices  a little,  not  very  much;  the  same  work,  but  I was  not  used  to  it; 
it  was  a different  kind  of  work  and  there  was  a foreman  before  I left, 
and  I says  to  him,  “Have  I got  any  money  coming?”  every  Saturday;  we 
don’t  keep  any  books,  and  we  never  knew  anything  about  it;  we  don’t  know 
how  much  is  coming  to  us;  he  used  to  write  it  on  his  own  book,  and  one 
Saturday  I thought  I ought  to  have  five  dollars  and  something,  and  I come 
for  my  pay  and  I seen  that  I was  short  of  money;  I says,  “I  am  short  of 
money,”  and  he  says,  “can  you  prove  it  to  me;  of  course  you  can’t  remember 
what  you  made  all  week,”  and  I says,  “no,  I can’t,  but  I am  short.” 

Q.  How  much  was  short  in  the  envelope  that  week?  A.  About  a 
dollar  and  sixty-nine  cents. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  much  was  in  the  envelope  for  the  whole 
week?  A.  Something  about  five  dollars. 

Q.  And  you  thought  you  were  a dollar  and  sixty-nine  cents  short? 
A.  Yes,  so  I told  him  that  I was  short,  and  I says,  “I  will  quit.”  And  he 
says,  “You  can  quit  if  you  want  to,”  and  after  that  my  boss  told  some 


396  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


friends  of  mine  he  says  I have  got  some  money  coming,  so  I thought  1 
would  go  down  and  see,  so  I went  down  there  and  the  boss  gave  me  back 
a dollar  and  sixty-nine  cents,  something  like  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Who  was  your  boss?  A.  Nathan. 

Q.  Is  it  the  Nathan  at  1222  South  JefferSon  street.  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  do  you  keep  track  of  your  piece  work? 
A.  I got  a book  and  he  marks  the  price  down  every  week. 

Q.  What  did  they  pay?  A.  Sometimes  eighty  cents  a dozen  and 
some  more  than  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Eighty  cents  for  a dozen  waists?  A.  All  accord- 
ing to  the  waists. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  for  what  these  waists  are  usually  sold?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  you  would  have  to  pay  for  a waist  of  that 
kind  if  you  went  down  to  buy  one?  A.  No,  I can’t  tell. 

Q.  Are  you  living  with  your  parents.  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Did  you  have  to  pay  for  any  waists  that  you 
spoiled?  A.  When  the  old  foreman  was  there. 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  His  first  name  was  Frank. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Were  you  born  in  Chicago?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  In  Russia. 

Q.  What  town?  A.  You  would  not  know  the  name — Kabrink. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Have  you  ever  spoiled  any  goods  under 
this  foreman?  A.  I,  no. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anybody  that  has.  A.  I know  one  girl  that 
spoiled  a waist  and  she  had  to  pay  for  it. 

Q.  What  kind  of  waist  did  she  spoil?  A.  I don’t  know. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  much  did  he  charge  for  it?  A.  I don’t 
know. 

Q.  They  never  charged  j^ou  for  anything  you  spoiled?  A.  No,  sir,  I 
didn’t  spoil  anything. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  say  he  charged  you?  A.  No,  he  never 
charged  me  anything;  I never  spoiled  anything  there. 

Q.  Did  this  old  foreman  ever  swear  at  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  he  used 
to  call  them  funny  names. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  funny  names?  A.  I don’t  know  as  I can 
call  it  in  English.  He  used  to  call  us,  we  are  all  Jewish,  he  used  to  call 
us  “Lousy  Jews.’’  Every  girl  had  a name  back  there. 

Q.  A nickname?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  name  did  he  give  you.  A.  I don’t 
think  he  gave  me  any;  he  used  to  tell  me,  but  it  is  just  a funny  name;  I 
don’t  think  it  is  nice  for  me  to  pronounce  it. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  vile  names?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Names  that  you  would  not  call  decent?  A.  Yes,  that  is  what  I 
mean. 

Q.  Who  pays  you,  the  foreman.  A.  What  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Does  the  foreman  pay  you;  who  do  you  get  j^our  pay  from? 
A.  The  foreman  brings  it  up  to  us  every  Saturday. 

Q.  I want  to  get  this  clear;  I judge  from  your  testimony  that  this 
is  the  practice  there,  that  the  girl  if  she  finds  that  she  has  been  wronged, 
as  in  your  case  where  you  were  a dollar  and  sixty-nine  cents  short  in  your 
envelope  of  that  amount,  and  as  in  the  case  of  the  girl  who  was  fined  for 
spoiling  a piece  of  work;  in  both  of  those  cases  you  both  quit  or  threatened 
to  quit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Up  to  that  point  the  employer  admitted  that  the  employer  was 
always  right?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  But  when  you  quit  or  threatened  to  quit  then  the^-  came  through 
with  your  demands?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  the  system;  that  is  what  happens  there?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


397 


' SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  think  they  will  discharge  you  for  coming 
'down  and  testifying?  A.  I am  on  piece  work. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  will  discharge  you  for  coming  down  here  and 
testifying.  A.  No. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  are  losing  time  while  you  are  here  from 
'piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all. 

Louis  Nathan’s  Testimony. 

LOUIS  NATHAN,  a witness  called  before  the  Commission,  and 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Your  name?  A.  Louis  Nathan. 

Q.  And  your  address?  A.  Business  address? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  1222  South  Jefferson  street. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  firm?  A.  Nathan  & Grossman  Manu- 
facturing Company. 

Q.  Are  you  a member  of  the  firm?  A.  I am. 

Q.  Are  you  foreman  in  the  institution?  A.  I am  not. 

Q.  Is  your  foreman  here?  A.  He  is  not. 

Q.  Have  you  a system  by  which  you  sweat  out,  which  is  the  English 
term,  work  to  girls;  do  you  employ  men  who  send  the  work  out  at  a less 
figure  than  is  done  by  your  employes?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  firm  pays  whatever  they  earn  without  any  middle  men  getting 
any  profit  out  of  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  employes  have  you?  A.  About  twenty-four  or 
twenty-five. 

Q.  Girls?  A.  Girls,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  best  salary  you  pay  to  any  girl,  the  greatest  amount? 
A.  Last  week  there  was  something  like  fifteen  dollars  and  some  cents,  that 
is  that  was  the  highest  pay. 

Q.  That  is  the  best  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  piece-work  is  a good  way  of  working  women? 
A.  I think  it  is.  I think  the  most  efficient  ought  to  make  the  most  money. 

Ch  Yes,  that  is  right.  But  do  you  think  that  the  weak,  least  eff.cient 
ought  to  make  enough  to  sleep  in  a bed  and  to  buy  clothing  to  cover  her? 
A.  I do. 

Q.  And  sufficient  food  to  eat?  A.  I do,  indeed. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  paid  employe  in  your  concern  receiving?  A.  Well, 
for  tbe  first  two  weeks  they  earn  from  three  to  four  dollars  a week  until 
they  get  experience. 

Q.  How  long  does  it  take  them  to  get  experience?  A.  That  is  up  to 
the  individual. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  time  before  they  commence  to  be  self- 
sustaining?  A.  Some  of  them  never  do. 

Q.  Some  of  them  never  do?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Those  that  never  do  keep  on  at  three  or  four  dollars  a week? 
A.  No,  we  would  rather  discharge-them. 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  They  usually  leave  in  a short  while. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  now  earning  three  or  four  dollars  a 
week?  A.  I haven’t  got  the  records  with  me,  but  I don’t  think  any  more 
than  two. 

Q.  And  they  are  learners?  A.  Yes,,  they  are  learners;  possibly  they 
came  in  a week  ago  or  so. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  earning  less  than  five  dollars  a week? 
A.  About  that  many. 

Q.  Three  or  four  dollars?  A.  No,  about  two  or  three. 

Q.  All  together?  A.  Yes. 


398  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  I 

Q.  How  many  are  earning  less  than  eight  dollars  a week.'  A.  Seven  li 
or  eight. 

Q.  Seven  or  eight?  A.  Yes.  1 

y.  How  many  above  eight  dollars.  A.  The  balance. 

Q.  About  sixteen?  A.  Yes.  j 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  a girl  earning  less  than  eight  dollars  a week  li 
in  the  city  of  Chicago  is  equipped  so  that  she  can  resist  temptation  if  it  ll 
comes  to  her?  A.  That  is  up  to  the  individual.  | 

Q.  Would  you  consider  the  fact  that  she  is  not  earning  enough  to  pay  'f 
the  necessary  expenses  of  life,  would  make  her  an  easier  victim?  A.  I do, 
in  some  cases. 

Q.  You  think  so?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  good  morals  or  good  policy  for  the  State  of 
Illinois  to  have  less  than  the  minimum  amount  of  wage  that  it  takes  to  ' 
keep  a girl?  A.  No. 

Q.  But  you  pay  about  eight  women  less  than  it  takes  to  keep  them; 
thirty-three  per  cent  of  all  your  women  earn  less  than  it  takes  to  keep  them? 

A.  It  all  depends  on  the  individual.  Some  girls  could  not  live  on  eight 
dollars  and  some  could  not  live  on  twelve. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  a young  woman  can  live  on?  A.  Six 'dollars. 

Q.  You  think  they  could?  A.  I think  they  could. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  die  would  you  think  that  that  would  be  a sufficient  ' 
amount  for  either  your  sister  or  your  wife  to  live  on  in  case  she  had  to  go  ; 
out  and  earn  a living?  A.  No,  but  I think  if  they  had  to  do  it  they  could. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Could  you  make  a list  for  the  Committee  showing  ; 
the  absolute  necessaries  that  a girl  would  have  to  have  and  which  you 
could  get  out  of  eight  dollars  a week;  could  you  make  a figure  for  this 
Committee  showing  that  a girl  could  exist  for  less  than  eight  dollars  a 
week?  A.  Not  off-hand. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  you  could?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  you  could  start  a girl  out  in  life  and  have  her 
live  on  less  than  eight  dollars  a week.  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  You  think  you  could.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  basing  your  wages  on  that  idea?  A.  No,  you  can  see  it, 
for  the  girls  make  fifteen,  sixteen  and  seventeen  dollars,  that  I don’t  base 
my  wages  on  it.  I would  much  rather  pay  a girl  eighteen  to  twenty-two 
dollars  than  the  other,  because  a girl  would  naturally  turn  out  better  work, 
but  I would  not  base  my  wage  scale  on  that. 

Q.  So  there  is  33  per  cent  of  your  employes  that  are  below  the  bread- 
line? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  necessary  for  the  success  of  your  business  that  they  should 
be  kept  below  the  bread-line?  A.  In  piece  work  alone  if  I should  advance 
them  I would  have  to  advance  all  along  the  line,  because  there  so  many 
inefficient;  to  give  them  more  money  would  be  an  injustice  to  the  others. 

Q.  When  you  have  a young  girl  come  there  on  Monday  morning, 
you  take  all  of  her  time  until  Saturday  night,  take  all  that  is  in  her,  all  she 
can  give  you,  don’t  you  consider  that  in  return  for  that  that  you  owe  her 
enough  to  eat?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Enough  to  live  on  and  sufficient  raiment  to  come  to  3'our  place  of 
business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  consider  that  you  owe  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  consider  then  the  girl  who  does  less  for  you  ought  to  have 
that  much  out  of  your  business;  if  she  does  not  get  that  out  of  jmur  business, 
ought  you  to  employ  her?  A.  No,  I should  think  I should  not  employ  her. 

Q.  You  will  agree  to  the  proposition  if  you  could  not  paj-  even  the 
least  worthy  or  the  least  efficient  of  your  girls  enough  so  that  she  might 
eat  and  clothe  herself  and  sleep  somewhere  that  j'ou  should  not  employ 
her?  A.  I do. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


399 


Q.  And  taking  the  other  alternative  you  should  pay  her  enough  so 
that  she  could  do  it.  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  is  an  alternative?  A.  No,  not  to  meet  the 
competition. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  How  much  did  you  make  this  last  year,  Mr. 
Nathan?  A.  I prefer  not  to  disclose  that. 

Q.  I ask  yhu,  Mr.  Nathan,  what  was  the  net  profit  of  your  business 
jl  during  the  last  fiscal  year?  A.  Must  I give  that? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  About  $2,000. 

Q.  About  $2,000?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  your  investment?  A.  I have  an  investment  in  that 
concern  of  about  $14,000. 

Q.  About  how  much  was  paid  out  during  the  last  fiscal  year  in  salaries 
to  executive  officers  of  your  company?  A.  We  just  organized  about  a 
month  ago  as  a corporation. 

Q.  We  were  talking  about  the  last  fiscal  year.  You  made  $2,000  net 
profit.  You  were  president  then,  were  you?  A.  We  just  organized  a 
month  ago.  It  is  a corporation  now. 

Q.  But  this  last  fiscal  year  you  say  you  made  $2,000?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  The  year  you  made  $2,000,  was  it  a partnership?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  were  the  sole  owner?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  was  your  salary  that  year?  A.  Thirty  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Was  there  any  money  spent  in  salaries  to  other  executive  officers 
of  your  company?  A.  No. 

Q.  Next  to  your  $30.00  a week  what  was  your  next  highest  salary 
paid  to  anyone  connected  with  your  business?  A.  The  bookkeeper  $10.00, 
the  shipping  clerk  $9.50,  the  designer  $22.00,  one  helper  $10.00,  and  we 
have  a helper  for  $9.00. 

Q.  What  was  the  total  amount  of  business  done  during  the  last  fiscal 
year?  A.  Fifty  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Fifty  thousand  dollars  gross?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Now,  Mr.  Nathan,  you  say  that  $50,000  business 
yielded  $2,000  worth  of  profit;  how  far  did  you  increase  the  size  of  your 
business  last  year?  A.  We  did  not  increase  it  at  all. 

Q.  You  did  not  buy  any  new  machines?  A.  No. 

Q.  In  other  words,  your  busines  was  of  the  same  size  at  the  end  of 
last  year  that  it  was  at  the  end  of  the  preceding  year?  A.  Approximately; 
I put  in  one  or  two  machines. 

Q.  You  didn’t  put  in  much  improvement  actually  out  of  the  earnings? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Yet  that  business  yielded  only  a profit  of  a couple  of  thousand 
dollars?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  it  is  possible  for  you  to  compete  with  other  men 
in  your  line  of  business  and  pay  the  33  per  cent  of  your  employes  a wage 
which  would  enable  the  girls  to  look  at  the  men  and  women  in  your  office 
and  say  that  the  money  that  they  got  from  you  was  sufficient  to  keep  them? 
A.  No,  I don’t  think  I could. 

Q.  Then  it  is  not  possible  to  conduct  your  kind  of  business  and  have 
the  people  that  manufacture  your  merchandise  make  a living  independently 
of  what  they  might  have  on  the  outside?  A.  This  is  skilled  help. 

Q.  You  don’t  call  it  skilled  help  until  they  can  produce  a certain 
number  of  any  design?  A.  No,  no,  they  just  produce  one  item. 

Q.  They  can  produce  that  item  but  they  cannot  produce  it  fast  enough? 
A.  Some  can’t  produce  it  at  all  on  the  start,  that  is  the  idea. 

Q.  How  long  a period  do  you  consider  that  they  are  unable  to  produce 
the  merchandise  at  all?  A.  An  average  of  about  three  weeks. 

Q.  If  then,  for  three  weeks,  they  learn  to  do  it  when  they  have  been 
with  you  three  weeks,  do  you  then  elevate  them  up  to  a point  where  they  are 
self-supporting?  A.  They  usually,  if  they  stay,  they  usually  make  enough 


400  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


to  come  up  to  $7.00.  I might  quote  an  instance  where  a girl  came  over  from 
abroad  and  never  saw  a power  machine  in  her  life  and  she  made  $7.21  the 
first  week,  I think. 

Q.  She  was  unusually  speedy?  A.  She  was. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  the  majority  of  your  girls  get  from  $4.00  to  $6.00 
a week?  A.  Oh,  no. 

Q.  That  is  not  the  fact?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  long  does  a girl  have  to  work  with 
you  before  she  can  become  skilled?  A.  With  that  degree  of  skill  she  ought 
to  make  a living  at  $8.00  by  working  three  or  four  weeks. 

Q.  In  three  or  four  weeks?  A.  Yes,  she  ought  to  make  that. 

Q.  Do  these  girls  get  along  very  well  to  start  with?  A.  Some  of 
them. 

Q.  What  becomes  of  goods  that  are  spoiled  in  the  making,  are  they 
charged  up  to  these  girls?  A.  Sometimes,  and  sometimes  not. 

Q.  What  becomes  of  the  goods?  A.  It  is  given  to  them  or  sold  if 
they  wanted  it  sold  for  what  it  would  bring  and  the  difiference  they  paid; 
the  difference  between  that  and  what  it  cost. 

Q.  The  difference  between  what  it  would  bring  and  what  it  would 
cost?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  sell  it  for  them.  A.  If  they  want  it  sold. 

Q.  Or  they  could  take  it  home?  A.  Or  they  could  take  it  home. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Suppose  the  State  of  Illinois  Avere  to  establish 
a minimum  wage  law  at  which  you  would  be  compelled  to  pay  say  at 
least  $8.00  or  $9.00  a week  to  a girl  that  you  pay  less  than  that  in  the  case 
of  piece  work,  you  would  simply  start  her  in  from  that  and  up?  A.  I 
should  say  that  we  would  not  employ  a girl  that  could  not  make  $8.00  a 
week. 

Q.  You  would  not  employ  them?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  would  have  to  recruit  your  force  from  somewhere,  wouldn’t 
you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  how  would  you  get  your  new  girls?  A.  That  is  a thing 
that  time  would  have  to  solve  for  itself;  I don’t  say  that  this  is  a fact, 
understand,  but  that  is  my  idea. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  your  business  is  able  to  pay  a new  Avorker  the 
amount  of  money  that  is  sufficient  to  feed  and  clothe  and  lodge  her? 
A.  No,  not  $8.00. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  is  in  the  business?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  Avould  be  in  the  business  if  all  men  engaged  in  the 
same  line  of  business  that  you  are  engaged  in  Avould  be  in  the  same  fix 
you  would  be  put  in?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  That  is,  you  think  it  would  be  possible?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  you  think  it  would  be  a pleasant  thing  for  you  if  they  were 
all  put  on  the  same  basis  and  you  Avere  to  pay  the  girl  the  minimum  liA-ing 
wage  as  long  as  they  are  treated  all  alike?  A.  If  they  are  treated  all 
alike,  yes. 

Mrs.  Siegel’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  SIEGEL,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  and  testified  as  folloAvs: 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  .•\.  Mrs.  Siegel. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  552  West  13th  street. 

Q.  How  many  children  have  you?  A.  I haA’e  got  fiA'e. 

Q.  Where  are  you  working,  Mrs.  Siegel?  A.  For  ^Ir.  Nathan. 

Q.  The  Mr.  Nathan  that  has  just  testified?  A.  \ es. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  for  Mr.  Nathan?  A.  I operate  a machine. 


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401 


Q.  You  operate  a machine?  A.  Yes,  I used  to  operate  by  piece 
work,  but  last  week  I was  fixing  up  for  the  girls  what  didn’t  make  right. 

Q.  What  they  didn’t  make  right?  A.  Yes,  last  week. 

Q.  When  you  work  for  Mr.  Nathan  by  the  week,  does  he  pay  you  by 
the  week?  A.  I could  not  tell  you,  because  I don’t  get  my  pay  yet. 

Q.  When  he  pays  you  by  the  week  how  much  does  he  pay  you? 
A.  I could  not  tell  you,  because  I didn’t  get  my  pay.  Everybody  got  paid 
Saturday,  but  I get  paid  Monday. 

Q.  You  didn’t  get  your  pay?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  think  you  will  get?  A.  Over  a dollar,  a dollar 
I think  I will  get. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  got  to  support,  Mrs.  Siegel,  on  that?  A.  I 
have  got  one  girl;  she  makes  $6.50  a week. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  else  earning  anything?  A.  No,  I have  got  a 
girl  going  to  high  school,  she  is  not  of  an  age  to  work. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  you  don’t  make  over  $5.00  a week?  A.  I don’t 
work  Saturday. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  make  $5.00;  I am  trying  to  see  how  much  money 
you  carry  home.  A.  Sometimes  I make  as  much  as  $5.50  and  sometimes 
I make  less. 

Q.  When  you  make  less,  how  much  do  you  make?  A.  Less? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I make  sometimes  $4.00,  $4.50,  $4.25,  $5.00,  or  $5.50.  I 
could  not  tell  you  Some  weeks  I make  more. 

Q.  And  your  daughter  makes  how  much?  A.  Six  and  a half. 

Q.  Six  and  a half?  A.  No.  $6.00;  $6.00  a week. 

Q.  She  works  in  the  same  place?  A.  No,  some  other  place. 

Q.  When  she  makes  less,  how  much  does  she  make?  A.  She  makes 
that  every  week,  every  time. 

Q.  She  works  six  days  in  the  week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Everything  that  you  make  and  $6.00  a week  that  she  makes  all 
comes  in  at  the  same  time?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  are  in  the  family  to  live  on  it?  A.  I have  got  a 
mother,  and  I have  five  children. 

Q.  You  have  a mother  and  five  children?  A.  Yes,  and  myself. 

Q.  There  are  seven  people  in  the  family?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Seven  all  told  to  live  on  this  $11.50?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  I think  that  is  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  one  statement  alone  is  enough  to  justify 
the  work  of  this  Committee;  seven  people  living  on  $11.50  a week,  the  total 
product  of  two  female  wageearners’  time  and  industry. 

Libby  Kaplan’s  Testimony 

LIBBY  KAPLAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testified  as  follows: 

(Interpreter  translating.) 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  talk  English?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  is  your  nationality?  A.  Yiddish. 

Q.  What  country  do  you  come  from?  A.  Russia. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  In  Maxwell  street. 

Q.  Now,  I will  ask  you  how  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  Sure  you  are  seventeen?  A.  Sure. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  country?  A.  Six  months  in  this 
country. 

Q.  Where  are  you  working?  A.  Nathan  & Company. 


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Q.  What  are  you  doing  over  there?  A.  I work  at  a machine. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  a week  for  it?  A.  I work  piece  work;  at 
first  I made  $4.00,  $5.00  and  $6.00  and  $7.00. 

Q.  Four,  five,  six  and  seven  dollars?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  last  week?  A.  Seven  and  a quarter? 

Q.  And  the  week  before  that?  A.  Seven  dollars  and  ninety-one  cents. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family.  Miss  Kaplan?  A.  I am  all 
alone  here  with  my  father. 

Q.  Is  your  father  working?  A.  Sure. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  He  is  a peddler. 

■ Q.  Does  he  work  all  the  time,  every  day?  A.  Sometimes  he  works 
and  sometimes  he  does  not  work. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  idea  as  to  what  he  earns?  A.  No,  I have  no 
idea. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Well;  this  confirms  what  Mr.  Nathan  stated;  she 
is  below,  all  the  way  from  $1.00  to  $2.00  and  $3.00  a week.  I think  that 
will  be  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  us  find  something  out  about  this  girl’s 
home  life,  her  amusements,  and  so  forth.  How  does  she  get  her  amusement. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  go  to  a nickel  show?  A.  Yes,  I go  sometimes  to  a 
nickel  show. 

Q.  How  often?  A.  About  two  times  a week,  or  once  a week. 

Q.  With  whom  do  you  go?  A.  With  another  girl. 

Q.  Outside  of  that  how  do  you  spend  your  time  in  the  evening? 
A.  Sometimes  I go  out  on  the  street;  I don’t  do  anything  in  particular. 

Q.  You  go  on  the  street;  how  long  would  be  on  the  street,  walking  up 
and  down,  I presume,  and  exercising?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  do  you  usuallj'  stay  out?  A.  Until  nine  o’clock  or  ten 
o’clock. 

Q.  Just  walking  up  and  down  the  street?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  go,  I presume,  on  the  street  where  the  lights  are  brighter;  in 
the  crowd?  A.  I walk  down  Halsted  street. 

Q.  Your  money  that  you  make,  do  you  turn  it  over  to  your  father 
or  do  you  keep  it?  A.  I keep  it  myself. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  have  you  with  your  father?  A.  I stop  in  tlie 
back  room  and  my  father  lives  in  the  front  room  of  the  same  house. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  of  your  girl  friends  call  on  you  at  this  room;  do 
you  ever  invite  your  girl  friends  into  those  rooms  that  constitute  your 
home?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  have  any  little  parties  in  there,  no  social  life  at  all? 
A.  No. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  go  to  the  home  of  any  of  your  girl  friends?  A.  No, 
not  very  often;  sometimes  I do. 

Q.  How  often  would  that  happen?  A.  About  two  or  three  or  four 
times  a week. 

SENATOR  JLVTL:  You  say  you  have  absolutel}"  nobody  come  to  your 
home  at  all?  A.  No. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  you  spoil  any  goods  in  learning?  A. 
No,  I didn’t. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  That  is  all. 

Lizzie  Fox’s  Testimony. 

lizzie  fox,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Miss  Lizzie  Fox. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  555  M’est  12th  place. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  In  the  old  country. 

Q.  What  old  country?  A.  Russia. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


403 


Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  America?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  What  are  you  working  at?  A.  On  a machine. 

Q.  You  are  also  working  at  Mr.  Nathan’s?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  On  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  your  weekly  earning;  what  did  you  earn  last  week? 
A.  Last  week  $8.78. 

Q.  You  are  one  of  the  fast  girls  over  there,  aren’t  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  are  one  of  the  fast  operators?  A.  Some  make  $10.00. 

Q.  You  are  one  of  the  real  fast  girls?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  can  do  more  .work  than  most  of  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  the  girls,  who  make  least,  make  over  there? 
A.  The  least  is  $5.00  and  $4.00. 

Q.  Nobody  told  you  what  you  ought  to  say  when  you  came  here  today, 
did  they?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  are  one  of  the  high  priced  girls  over  there,  you  make 
about  $8.00,  you  said?  A.  Eight  dollars. 

SERGEANT  SCOUTEN:  She  works  on  two  machines. 

THE  WITNESS:  Yes,  some  weeks  I make  $8.00  and  some  $7.00,  and 
some  $5.00,  but  if  I have  good  work  I make  $8.00.  I got  $4.00  a week  when 
I was  working  by  the  week. 


SENATOR  JUUL:  You  made  $4.00  a week  when  you  worked  by  the 
week?  A.  Yes. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  long  have  you  been  working?  A.  Two 
years. 

Q.  You  don’t  work  on  Sundays?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  on  Sundays?  A.  I stay  at  home  or  go  out. 

Q.  You  work  on  Saturdays,  do  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Until  what  hour  on  Saturday?  A.  About  twelve  o’clock. 

Q.  Until  twelve  o’clock  at  noon?  A.  Yes,  but  sometimes  to  four 
o’clock. 

.Q.  Sometimes  you  work  until  four  o’clock?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  when  you  get  through?  A.  Go  right  home. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  go  to  bed?  A.  About  nine  or  ten  o’clock. 

Q.  You  are  tired  when  you  go  to  bed?  A.  Yes,  sure. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  have  a headache  because  you  work  hard?  A.  Yes, 
sure. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  sick  sometimes  because  you  work  hard.  A.  Yes,  I 
feel  sick  now. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  would  feel  sick  so  often  if  you  were  not  on  the 
I piece  system?  Does  it  make  you  nervous  if  you  don’t  keep  the  speed  up, 
if  you  feel  that  you  are  not  going  to  make  as  much  as  you  made  last  week? 
A.  Sure. 

Q.  It  makes  you  feel  nervous  all  the  time?  A.  Yes,  some  weeks  I 
am  sick  and  then  I have  to  pay  $4.00  a week. 

Q.  You  have  got  your  other  expenses  also?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  when  you  feel  that  you  are  not  going  to  come  up  to  that 

$4.00  you  get  nervous?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  are  sick  many  times  because  of  it?  A.  Yes. 

j Q.  You  go  home  on  Saturdays,  go  home  at  nine  or  ten  o’clock  at  night 

I and  then  on  Sunday  how  late  do  you  sleep  on  Sunday?  A.  Nine  or  ten 

o’clock  on  Sunday. 

Q.  You  sleep  until  nine  or  ten  o’clock  on  Sunday  because  you  haven’t 
any  work  to  do  on  that  day?  A.  Yes. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  don’t  get  up  early  on  Sundays  because  you  have  no  work  to 
do  that  day?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  get  up  for  breakfast?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  in  the  afternoon?  A.  Stay  at  home  or  go  out. 

Q.  When  you  stay  at  home  do  you  have  other  girls  come  in  to  see 
you?  A.  Yes,  some  times. 

Q.  Does  it  sometimes  happen  that  you  stay  in  bed  all  day  Sundays 
because  you  are  tired  out?  A.  Sometimes. 

Q.  Sometimes  that  happens?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  when  you  are  feeling  well  you  either  stay  at  home  and  the 
other  girls  come  in  and  you  have  your  little  time  of  pleasure  or  social  life? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  go  when  you  leave  the  house;  you  say  you  go  out 
sometimes;  go  to  some  other  girl’s  place?  A.  I have  got  an  aunt  here. 

Q.  You  have  an  aunt  here  and  you  go  to  see  her  sometimes?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  come  in  and  get  to  bed  about  what  time  on  Sunday  nights? 
A.  About  ten  o’clock,  sometimes  a little  later  than  that.  I have  got  an 
uncle  here  too. 

Q.  You  get  to  bed  about  ten  o’clock  Sunday  nights?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  get  up  Monday  morning?  A.  At  si.\-thirty. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  start  to  work?  A.  At  seven-thirty. 

Q.  How  far  is  it  from  where  you  live  to  where  you  work?  A.  Just 

across  the  street. 

Q.  You  have  your  breakfast  before  you  start  to  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  work  until  what  time:  when  do  you  have  lunch?  .\ 

half  hour. 

Q.  You  take  a half  hour  for  lunch?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  generally  take  your  lunch  with  you?  A.  No,  I go  home. 

Q.  And  you  work  until  what  time:  when  do  you  have  lunch?  A.  A 
half  hour. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  so  sick  you  had  to  call  a doctor?  A.  Yes,  I 
was  terrible  sick  Saturday. 

Q.  Last  Saturday?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  a doctor?  A.  Yes,  I had  an  operation' on  my  hand. 

Q.  What  was  the  operation  for?  A.  I caught  cold  in  my  hand. 

Q.  So  you  went  to  a doctor?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  sort  of  an  ailment  was  that?  A.  Oh,  the  room  was  too  hot. 

Q.  The  room  was  too  hot  where  you  worked?  A.  I don’t  know,  but  I 
think  so. 

Q.  What  did  you  have  to  pay  this  doctor?  A.  Two  dollars. 

Q.  You  had  to  pay  him  $2.00  for  attending  to  you?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all. 

Helen  Rosini’s  Testimony. 

HELEN  ROSINI,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Helen  Rosini. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  12th  place. 

Q.  At  what  number?  A.  360. 

Q.  By  whom  are  you  employed;  for  whom  are  you  working?  A.  Mr. 
Nathan. 

Q.  The  same  gentleman  that  was  here?  A.  Y'es. 

Q.  Are  you  working  at  piece  work?  A.  No,  by  the  week. 

Q.  How  many  days  in  the  week  do  you  work?  A.  All  week  days. 

Q.  You  work  all  week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  work  on  Saturdays?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


405 


Q.  How  much  do  you  get?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  in  your  family?  A.  I am  single. 

Q.  Have  you  anybody  else  to  take  care  of?  A.  No,  I just  have 
ji  myself  to  take  care  of. 

i Q.  How  long  have  you  worked  for  Mr.  Nathan?  A.  Since  eight 
f months. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get  when  you  started?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  No  increase  at  all?  A.  No,  just  the  same  as  when  I started. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  the  investigator  you  got  only  $4.00  a week?  A.  No, 

1 didn’t  tell  him  that. 

Q.  Did  somebody  tell  you  to  say  you  got  $5.00?  A.  No,  sure  not. 

Whereupon  the  further  hearing  by  the  Committee  was  adjourned  to 

2 :30  P.  M.  of  this  date. 


SESSION  XIII 


A forelady  tells  how  one  of  her  girls  was  seduced.  A millinery 
worker  has  no  complaints.  A cashier  and  a superintendent  for  a 
clothing  manufacturing  firm  answer  questions  but  disclaim  all 
knowledge  of  the  whereabouts  of  their  employers.  Testimony  of: 

Carrie  Peterson,  forelady  for  Rubens  & Marble; 

Anna  Kaplan,  milliner,  employed  by  Hyman  Goldberg; 

George  Cable,  cashier,  and  Victor  Riesenfeld,  superintendent, 
Rosenwald  & Weil,  clothing  manufacturers. 

Chicago,  March  31,  1913,  2:30  P.  M. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  all  members  being 
present.  The  following  proceedings  were  had : 

Carrie  Peterson’s  Testimony. 

CARRIE  PETERSON,  a witness  called  before  the  Committee,  and 
being  first  duly  sworn  b3'^  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Carrie  Peterson. 
Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  Why,  forelady. 

Q.  At  what  establishment?  A.  Rubens  & Marble. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  off  the  girls  there?  A.  I pay  the  girls,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  amount  paid  any  girl  in  that  establishment? 
A.  Well,  they  are  all  $5.00  at  least;  of  course,  that  is  out  of  my  department; 
the  office  has  charge  of  that. 

Q.  I know,  but  you  handle  the  money,  you  give  the  money  to  the 
girls?  A.  I give  it  to  them  after  it  is  made  up. 

Q.  So  you  are  familiar  with  the  amount  paid  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  paying  the  money  to  the  girls,  or 
handing  it  out  to  them?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  During  that  two  years  do  you  remember  of  any  occasion  when 
you  paid  any  girl  less  than  $5.00  a week  for  a week’s  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  your  memory  would  be  pretty  accurate  on  that 
point?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  working  there?  A.  Well,  there  is  about  a 
hundred  and  ninety  girls. 

Q.  Of  course  you  take  a sort  of  an  interest,  a sisterly  interest  in 
the  welfare  of  those  girls,  don’t  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  know  something  about  their  home  life,  whether  they  manage 
to  get  along  on  the  amount  of  money  they  have  been  paid?  A.  Yes, 
but  it  is  hard  to  keep  track  of  that  number  of  girls. 

Q.  Most  of  them  live  at  home  with  their  parents?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  term  “White  Slavery”?  A.  Yes.  ' 

Q.  You  know  what  is  meant  by  that  term?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  experience  with  agents  of  that  industry;  the 
industry  of  white  slavery?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Have  any  agents  of  that  industry  been  hanging  around  your  place 
I of  business,  trying  to  induce  away  your  girls?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  some  girl  that  went  to  California.  A.  Well,  all 
that  1 can  say  is  that  she  went. 

Q.  Let  us  see,  how  old  was  she?  A.  Past  sixteen. 

Q.  She  was  past  sixteen?  A.  Yes. 

407 


408 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Give  the  Committee  her  initials.  A.  E.  L. 

Q.  E.  L.  begun  work  for  your  firm  about  when?  A.  Well,  I was 
not  there  when  she  started;  that  was  not  in  my  department;  it  was  almost 
a year  and  a half. 

Q.  You  knew  her  only  about  two  years  ago?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  old  was  she  at  that  time?  A.  She  was  just  under  sixteen 
then. 

Q.  She  was  just  under  sixteen  at  that  time?  A.  Yes. 

Q,  And  before  that  time  she  had  been  working  at  your  place  about 
a year  and  a half?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  She  started  when  she  was  about  fourteen?  A.  She  was  past 
fourteen,  I guess. 

Q.  What  was  she  doing  at  the  time  you  knew  her?  A.  Folding 
shirts. 

Q.  Folding  shirts?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that,  folding  over  the  shirts  and  pinning 
them  together  or  something  of  that  nature?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a day  did  she  work?  A.  Why,  until  she  was 
sixteen  she  worked  eight,  and  then  nine  hours  regular  time. 

Q.  Was  she  a pretty  nice  girl?  A.  Yes,  so  far  as  I know. 

Q.  What  happened,  did  she  disappear?  A.  Just  run  away. 

Q.  She  ran  away?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is,  one  morning  she  did  not  report  to  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  notification  you  had  that  something  unusual 
had  happened?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Prior  to  the  morning  that  she  failed  to  come  she  had  been 
punctual?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  days  elapsed  before  you  knew  that  she  had  run  away? 
A.  Well,  it  was  something — well,  on  Saturday  or  Monday,  the  second  day. 

Q.  The  second  day  you  discovered  she  had  run  away?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  make  that  discovery?  A.  Her  mother 
came  down. 

Q.  What  did  her  mother  say  to  you?  A.  Why,  her  mother  told 
me  that  she  had  gone;  her  mother  knew  it  the  same  night. 

Q.  Well,  what  did  her  mother  say,  that  she  had  gone  away,  alone, 
or  that  some  other  girl  or  some  other  party  with  her?  A.  She  said  she 
went  with  a party. 

Q.  Did  she  describe  that  party?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  period  of  time  elapsed  before  this  case  was  next  called  to 
your  attention?  A.  It  was  about  six  months. 

Q.  And  in  what  manner  was  it  called  to  your  attention?  A.  The 
girl  came  back. 

Q.  How  did  she  come  back,  with  her  mother,  or  come  back  alone? 
A.  She  came  back  alone. 

Q.  She  came  to  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  asked  you  to  put  her  to  work  again?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  there  any  change  in  her  appearance?  A.  She  w'as  more 
quiet. 

Q.  What  did  she  say  to  you?  A.  She  said  she  had  to  work  her 
way  back  again. 

Q.  Where  did  she  say  she  went?  A.  To  California. 

Q.  With  whom?  A.  With  a man. 

Q.  Did  she  say  where  she  had  met  this  man?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  she  give  you  the  man’s  name?  A.  Not  at  the  time,  no. 

Q.  Did  she  later  give  you  the  man’s  name?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  the  man?  A.  No,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


409 


Q.  Did  he  have  any  business?  A.  He  worked  in  a box  factory,  or 
ioinething  like  that. 

Q.  He  was  working  in  a box  factory?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  he  much  older  than  this  girl?  A.  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  Was  the  man  ever  arrested?  A.  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  She  went  to  California  with  this  man;  when  she  got  to  California 

ivhat  did  she  say  happened?  A.  She  said  she  worked  every  day  while 
ihe  was  there. 

; Q.  Doing  what?  A.  In  some  box  place;  she  didn’t  say  where. 

Q.  She  worked  in  a box  factory?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  Did  this  man  work,  too?  A.  Yes. 

! Q.  Did  she  marry  the  man?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  the  man  treat  her  kindly?  A.  I could  not  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  How  long  were  they  in  California,  did  she  say?  A.  Well,  about 

Fix  months. 

Q.  She  finally  left  the  man?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Why?  A.  Why,  she  wanted  to  get  home  again. 

Q.  She  became  homesick?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  she  told  him  she  was  going  to  leave  did  he  object  to  it? 
jA.  No,  he  helped  her  back. 

I Q.  Mr.  Rubens  this  morning  stated  that  the  girl  had  been  held  a 
prisoner  in  California,  been  locked  up,  and  that  she  was  forced  to  escape 
■ through  employment  of  means  of  force.  A.  Well,  I guess  she  told  some 
that;  that  is  not  what  she  told  me. 

Q.  She  didn’t  tell  you  she  had  been  held  a prisoner  there?  A.  No, 
sir, 

Q.  She  went  to  California  with  this  man?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  paid  her  fare?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  she  tell  you  he  paid  her  fare?  A.  I know  that  she  didn’t 
have  any  money  of  her  own. 

] Q.  Has  she  ever  had  this  man  arrested?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  That  is  last  October. 

Q.  Does  she  still  love  him?  A.  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  Did  she  say  she  ever  loved  him?  A.  No. 

I"  0-  What  reason  did  she  give  for  going?  A.  She  said  he  promised 

li'to  make  conditions  better  for  her  and  marry  her. 

Q.  She  met  this  man  and  he  promised  to  make  conditions  better  for 
liher?  A.  Yes. 

ijj  Q.  Now,  she  didn’t  say  she  loved  him?  A.  No. 

;|j  Q.  But  she  said  that  he  promised  to  make  conditions  better  for  her 
I and  that  was  the  inducement?  A.  Yes. 

i Q.  Where  is  this  man  now?  A.  In  California,  I guess. 

’ Q.  What  part  of  California?  A.  Well,  Oakland,  I guess  she  said. 

1 Q.  What  is  his  address  at  Oakland?  A.  I don’t  know. 

O.  Does  this  girl  correspond  with  him  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  She  does  not  care  for  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  She  is  through  with  him?  A,  Yes. 

Q.  She  realizes  that  her  condition  now  is  better  than  any  condition 
jthat  he  might  bring  about  for  her?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  this  man’s  name?  A.  I guess  he  has  different  names. 

I Q.  What  was  his  name  here?  A.  Cannot. 

I 0-  How  do  you  spell  it?  A.  C-a-n-n-o-t. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  This  is  a clear  violation  of  the  Federal  law 
ilagainst  white  slavery.  The  girl  feels  that  this  man  has  wronged  her?  A. 
lYes. 

O.  And  he  wronged  her  through  promises  not  to  love  her  but  to 
I ’setter  her  condition,  and  she  submitted  to  him  not  because  she  loved  him 


410  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

but  because  she  thought  that  he  could  better  her  condition?  A.  Of 
course,  I don’t  know  anything  about  that;  only  what  she  says. 

Q.  That  is  what  she  told  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  I want  to  ask  you  a question:  do  you  think  that  many  girls 
go  wrong  because  they  are  paid  less  money  than  they  can  live  upon? 
They  don’t  go  wrong  when  they  are  working,  but  they  try  to  struggle 
along  and  keep  body  and  soul  together  on  the  money  that  is  paid  them, 
and  finally  they  say,  “My  goodness,  what  is  the  use,  anyway.’’  Then 
some  man  comes  along,  and  he  is  pretty  kind,  and  she  sort  of  likes  him,  and 
he  promises  her,  as  this  fellow  promised  this  girl,  many  things,  and  she 
finally  submits.  Do  you  think  many  girls  go  wrong  on  account  of  that? 
A.  No,  I don’t. 

Q.  You  think  this  girl  is  an  exception?  A.  I think  she  is  one  of  the 
exceptions;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  think  there  are  some  other  girls  like  this  who  do  go 
wrong  because  of  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  believes  emphatically  that 
the  working  girls  of  America  are  as  good  as  any  girls  on  earth,  and  we 
want  to  know  whether  any  girls  do  go  wrong,  and  you  have  given  us  a 
specific  instance. 

Anna  Kaplan’s  Testimony. 

ANNA  KAPLAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Anna  Kaplan. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1019  Hermitage  Avenue. 

Q.  By  whom  are  you  employed?  A.  Hyman  Goldberg. 

Q.  Were  you  here  during  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Goldberg  this  morn- 
ing? A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  are  employed  as  a milliner?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  an  apprentice?  A.  No,  I am  a trimmer. 

Q.  Did  you  start  learning  with  him?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  learned  the  trade  when  you  got  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  average  wage  per  week?  A.  Fourteen  dollars. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  working  conditions  of  other  girls 
out  there?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  anything  about  others. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  they  earn?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  earning  that  amount  that  j'ou  are 
earning  now?  A.  Just  this  season;  every  season  I get  a raise. 

Q.  You  get  a season  rate?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  This  is  the  gentleman  that  we  agreed  treated  his  emploj-es  pretty 
well?  A.  Yes. 

' Q.  You  said  your  average  wage  was  $14.00  a week?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  How  much  were  you  raised?  A.  A dollar 
and  a half  this  season. 

Q.  Every  season  do  you  mean  you  get  a raise?  A.  Well,  it’s  all 
according. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?  A.  Four  years. 

Q.  And  they  raise  you  every  year  $1.50  you  mean?  A.  Sometimes 
$1.00  and  sometimes  $1.50. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  In  these  four  years  you  have  gone  from  $6.00  to 
$14.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD;  Will  you  go  ahead  at  the  regular  rate 
or  drop  off  at  the  end  of  the  season?  A.  No,  we  get  that  the  full  season 
that  starts  the  1st  of  March,  until  July. 

Q.  What  about  after  it  is  over?  A.  M"e  will  stay  at  home  or  go 
into  the  wholesale  house. 

Q.  You  are  there  just  during  the  season?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


411 


|i  Q.  You  are  what  is  known  as  a trimmer?  A.  I am  a third  trimmer; 

',;of  course,  there  is  two  more  that  get  more,  they  get  $15.00  and  $17.00. 
r SENATOR  JUUL;  What  did  Mr.  Goldberg  tell  you  this  morning 
I, when  he  found  out  that  you  had  been  subpoenaed?  A.  He  has  not  said 
'anything. 

Q.  He  hasn’t  said  anything?  A.  No,  sir. 

, Q.  He  didn’t  suggest  what  you  should  say  here?  A.  No,  sir. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Are  there  any  other  shops,  any  other  mil- 
linery shops  around  the  place  where  you  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
j Q.  What  do  the  girls  in  those  shops  get?  A.  I don’t  know  anything 

labout  that. 

( Q.  What  is  the  usual  wage  for  a trimmer?  A.  Well,  I think  trim- 
[mers  get  as  high  as  $35.00. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  try  to  get  any  other  position  with  any  other  firm? 
fA.  No,  sir;  I always  worked  for  Mr.  Goldberg. 

; SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  the  wage  of  a trimmer  when  the  season 

14s  over?  A.  Do  you  mean  in  the  wholesale  house? 

Q.  No,  when  the  season  is  over,  when  you  take  other  employment? 
A.  Yes,  Gage  Brothers  at  piece  work,  they  average  as  high  as  $20.00  a 
week. 

I Q.  Twenty  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  $15.00  and  $20.00. 
t CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where?  A.  At  Gage  Brothers,  out  south. 
* SENATOR  JUUL:  They  are  manufacturing  wholesalers?  A.  Yes, 
Isir. 

I George  Cable’s  and  Victor  Riesenfeld’s  Testimony. 

I GEORGE  CABLE  and  VICTOR  RIESENFELD,  witnesses  called 
’.before  the  Committee,  and  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  testi- 
i fied  as  follows: 

t CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name? 
f MR.  CABLE:  George  Cable. 

■ Q.  And  your  name? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Victor  Riesenfeld. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation? 

MR.  CABLE:  Cashier. 

1 Q.  With  what  concern?  A.  Rosenwald  & Weil, 
d Q.  And  your  occupation? 

d MR.  RIESENFELD:  Superintendent  of  manufacturers,  Rosenwald 

Weil. 

Ij  Q.  What  are  those  books? 

!;  MR.  CABLE:  Those  are  the  pay  roll  books. 

Q.  Do  those  books  contain  the  name  of  every  girl  employed  by 

1 Rosenwald  & Weil  and  the  amount  of  wages  paid? 

I MR.  CABLE:  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  least  amount  of  money  paid  any  woman  in  your 
employ  during  last  week?  A.  Well,  that  is  something  I don’t  know, 
I' because  I don’t  make  up  the  pay  rolls. 

Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  figures  in  these  books?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Yes. 

I'  Q.  What  is  the  lowest  amount  paid  any  girl  in  your  employ  last 
I week? 

j MR.  RIESENFELD:  We  haven’t  made  last  week’s  pay  roll  up  yet. 
Q.  Week  before  last? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Two  dollars  and  sixty  cents. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  girls  got  $2.60? 

MR  RIESENFELD:  I want  to  interpose  something  there;  I want  to 


■112  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

say  that  that  girl  didn’t  work  a full  week;  you  wanted  to  know  how  much 
she  got. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  part  of  a week  did  she  work? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  I don’t  know;  I would  have  to  investigate  to 
tell  you  what  part  of  the  week  she  worked. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  me  ask  you  a question 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  much  money  did  Esther  Behrensen 
make  last  week?  A.  Esther  Behrensen? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Did  the  girl  testify  where  she  worked;  was  that  one  of 
the  girls  that  testified  here  this  morning? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Some  of  them  didn’t  know  where  they  were 
working,  or  were  afraid  to  tell. 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Esther  Behrensen  made  $3.45  last  week. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  she  work  a full  week? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  hours  did  she  work?  A.  Fortj-- 
seven  hours. 

Q.  Forty-seven  hours?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  she  got  how  much? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Three  dollars  and  forty-eight  cents. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  just  the  rate  of  10  cents  an  Iiour. 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Yes,  she  gets  $4.00  a week,  to  be  exact. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  hours  do  they  have  to  work  to 
work  full  time? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Fifty-four  hours. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  about  Mary  Dasdowicz? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  She  worked  half  a week. 

Q.  How  much  did  she  get  for  that  half  week?  A.  Two  dollars  and 
seventeen  cents. 

Q.  How  many  hours  did  she  work?  A.  Twenty-nine  and  one- 
quarter  hours. 

Q.  And  she  got  for  that  twenty-nine  and  one-quarter  hours  how 
much?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventeen  cents;  in  other  words,  she  is  paid 
at  the  same  rate;  those  girls  get  $4.00  a week. 

Q.  How  much  is  the  lowest  amount  of  money  that  you  pay  any  girl 
who  works  a full  week?  A.  Three  dollars  and  a half. 

Q.  For  fifty-four  hours’  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  For  how  much?  A.  For  eight  hours  a day’s  work,  that  is  fifty- 

two  hours,  it  is  forty-four  hours  to  be  exact.  Five  days  of  eight  hours  at 
$1.00  a day. 

Q.  You  people  seem  to  be  pretty  good  business  men  over  there;  if 

a girl  comes  in  five  minutes  late  you  keep  track  of  that  and  dock  her, 

don’t  you?  A.  We  don’t  dock  them  half  a day,  though. 

Q.  If  she  would  be  half  an  hour  late  every  morning?  A.  If  she 
were  half  an  hour  late  every  morning  I don’t  think  she  would  be  there; 
she  would  be  let  out;  she  would  be  discharged. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Rosenwald  this  morning?  A.  Mr.  Rosenwald 
is  not  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Where  is  he?  A.  The  last  I heard  of  him  he  was  out  in  High- 
land Park.  I expect  he  will  be  back  tomorrow. 

Q.  When  did  you  last  hear  of  him?  .A.  Yesterday. 

Q.  When?  A.  In  the  afternoon. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  him,  at  home?  A.  I didn’t  meet  him.  I 
called  at  his  home  and  was  told  that  he  was  out  of  the  city. 

Q.  Did  he  have  any  message  to  leave  with  you?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  he  would  not  be  down  today?  A.  I didn’t 
talk  with  him. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


413 


Q.  I understood  you  to  say  you  talked  with  him?  A.  1 haven  t 
seen  him  or  talked  to  him;  I called  up  his  house  and  I was  told  he  w^as 
in  Highland  Park. 

Q.  Who  told  you?  A.  The  maid. 

Q.  When  did  you  see  Mr.  Rosenwald  last? 

MR.  CABLE:  Friday  or  Saturday.  Yes,  sir,  I think  so— just  a 
minute — I don’t  remember  now  when  I really  seen  him  last. 

Q.  But  you  remember  the  name  of  the  firm  you  w^ere  w'orking  for? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Some  of  these  girls  that  testified  here  this  morning  didn’t  remem- 
ber that.  When  did  you  see  Mr.  Rosenwald  yesterday? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  Did  I say  I saw  him  yesterday? 

Q.  When  did  you  see  Mr.  Weil  last?  A.  On  Saturday. 

' Q.  Where?  A.  At  the  store. 

Q.  Where  is  he  today?  A.  I don’t  know’. 

. Q.  Has  he  been  around  his  place  of  business  today?  A.  No,  sir. 

V Q.  Have  you  seen  him  today  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  him  today? 

MR.  CABLE:  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Are  Mr.  Rosenwald  and  Mr.  Weil  generally 
out  of  the  city  at  the  same  time? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  I can’t  tell. 

Q.  What  do  you  say  your  position  is  with  this  firm?  A.  Superin- 
tendent of  manufacturing. 

Q.  Are  5’ou  a married  man?  A.  I am. 

Q.  You  have  no  interest  in  this  firm  other  than  your  salary?  A. 
None  other  than  my  salary. 

Q.  How  old  is  this  firm?  A.  I really  couldn’t  tell  you;  it  is  over 
twenty-five  years  old. 

Q.  It  makes  some  money,  of  course?  A.  That  I could  not  tell  you, 
either;  I am  not  familiar  with  their  finances. 

Q.  What  make  is  Mr.  Rosenwald’s  automobile?  A.  I couldn’t  tell 
you  that,  either. 

Q.  How  many  has  he?  A.  He  has  one. 

Q.  How  about  Mr.  Weil’s?  A.  Mr.  Weil  bas  one  also. 

Q.  A pretty  nice  machine?  A.  I don’t  know  whether  to  call  it  nice 
or  not. 

Q.  As  those  gentlemen  are  not  here,  we  would  like  to  get  some  idea 
as  to  the  profit  made  by  them.  A.  I am  not  familiar  with  their  profits. 

Q.  Where  do  they  live,  in  what  part  of  the  town?  A.  South,  the 
southern  part  of  town. 

Q.  They,  have  pretty  nice  homes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  look  prosperous?  A.  I suppose  they  are  prosperous,  I 
j don’t  know  anything  about  their  personal  matters. 

Q.  You  would  judge  Mr.  Rosenwald  probably  has  an  income  of 
$3.40  a week?  A.  I should  suspect  so. 

Q.  Has  he  any  children?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  Has  he  any  daughters?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  He  hasn’t  any  daughters  working  out  there  at  $3.40  a week?  A. 

; He  hasn’t  any  daughters  at  all  that  I know  of. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Well,  I confess.  Senator  Juul,  I haven’t 
, very  much  sympathy  with  this  firm.  I have  asked  them  enough  questions. 
Will  you  take  the  witness? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I wouldn’t  ask  them  anything,  Mr.  Chairman; 

' what  is  the  use,  their  story  is  told  and  these  gentlemen  confirm  it.  Their 

(books  are  on  the  table;  what  is  the  use  of  digging  into  a mess  like  that? 

SENATOR  _ WOODARD:  Would  those  girls  that  are  here  today 
be  docked  for  missing  their  time  today? 


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MR.  RIESENFELD;  No. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  think  there  will  be  any  danger  of  their 
losing  their  positions  for  coming  here  and  testifying? 

MR.  RIESENFELD;  It  is  not  likely. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  It  is  only  due  to  the  girls  to  say  that  they  testi- 
fied reluctantly;  none  of  them  seemed  to  know  very  much,  and  some  even 
didn’t  know  who  they  were  working  for. 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  We  didn’t  have  anything  to  do  w4th  their 
testimony;  we  didn’t  know  they  were  testifying;  we  didn’t  tell  them  to 
testify  or. not  to  testify;  we  didn’t  know  anything  about  their  testifying. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Who  fixes  the  wages  of  these  girls? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  The  foreman. 

Q.  Are  you  consulted  about  the  matter?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  are  they  fixed?  A.  There  is  a price  common  to  the  entire  i 
clothing  business  for  each  operation  in  the  garment:  each  garment  is  sub-  j 
divided  into  various  parts. 

Q.  Do  you  have  them,  or  no,  these  girls  that  work  for.  $3.40  a week,  i 
do  you  think  that  they  can  possibly  live  on  those  wages  of  $4.00  even?  i 
A.  I know  that  a girl  could  live  on  $4.00  a week;  could  live  on  those  i 
wages. 

Q.  Explain  to  me  how  she  could  do  it.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  take  the  girl’s  board  for  instance.  A.  No,  I won’t  take  it 
that  way;  in  the  course  of  my  career  I have  been  in  the  settlements  for 
quite  a long  period  of  time,  and  I know  a great  many  girls  earning  $3.50  : 
a week  and  are  saving  money  in  the  Maxwell  Street  Bank  todajL 

Q.  Do  they  pay  for  their  board?  A.  Pay  their  board  at  home,  yes.  | 

Q.  Tell  me  how  a girl  can  live  and  make  money  off  of  $4.00  a week.  i 
A.  I don’t  know  anything  about  the  details  of  it,  but  I know  they  do. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  us  get  down  to  details.  You  ventured  the 

statement  before  this  Committee  that  a girl  who  gets  $3.50  or  $3.40  a week  i 
can  live  on  it?  A.  I say  she  can  live  on  it,  3'es. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  been  a settlement  worker  and  j’OU  know  it?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  let’s  start  in  with  what  3^ou  know.  A.  All  right,  sir. 

Q.  This  girl  is  supposed  to  get  twent3'-one  meals  a week;  what  can 

she  get  them  at?  A.  The  girls  that  I refer  to  live  at  home  and  pa3'  a 1 

certain  amount  for  board  arid  lodging. 

Q.  Well,  if  they  haven’t  an3'  home,  what  then?  A.  Then  the3'  can’t  1 
live  on  it. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  that  they  can  live  for  $3.50  or  $3.40  a week  if  i 
somebody  else  chins  in  and  pays  the  difference?  A.  If  the3"  live  at  home  1 
they  can  live  on  that. 

Q.  If  they  don’t  pay  the  full  amount  of  what  they  get,  of  course,  they  I 
can  live  on  it.  You  don’t  assume  that  they  can  live  on  $3.40  a week  ( 
unless  they  have  help?  A.  Those  that  live  at  home  can. 

Q.  Will  3'ou  furnish  this  Committee  with  a statement  of  how  3'ou  ' 
figure  that  out?  A.  I can  furnish  a statement  of  girls,  young  girls  who  I 
can  live  on  $3.50  and  are  saving  money  in  the  Maxwell  Street  Social  Settle- 
ment todav',  are  saving  money. 

Q.  You  don’t  mean  to  say  that  they  live  on  $3.50  a week;  3'ou  mean 
to  say  that  thev  live  off  of  their  parents?  A.  Possibb"  the3"  live  off  of  their 
parents,  I don’t  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  Well,  you  know  what  we  are  after.  _ We  are  tr3'ing  to  find  out 
what  they  live  on.  A.  That  I am  not  familiar  with. 

Q.  Then  you  are  not  familiar  w4th  the  fact  that  they  live  for  $3.50  a 
week  and  save  money?  A.  I know  there  are  girls  that  get  $3.50  a week  ■ 
and  save  money. 

Q.  How  much  would  you  say  they  are  saving?  A.  Twenty-five  Of 
fifty  cents  a week. 

Q.  Out  of  their  wages?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


415 


i Q.  And  live  by  their  wages?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  clothe  themselves?  A.  Yes. 

^ Q.  They  don’t  pay  their  board,  do  they?  A.  They  pay  a certain 
amount  for  board. 

J Q.  They  don’t  buy  their  own  clothes?  A.  I know  as  a matter  of 
fact  that  there  are  some  girls  earning  this  amount  of  money,  and  I can 
Ijjroduce  them,  and  they  are  saving  money  out  of  it. 

!|  SENATOR  BEALL:  If  the  girls  stay  at  home  and  don’t  have  to 
buy  their  own  clothes,  of  course,  they  can  save  money. 

i'  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  All  you  know  is  that  girls  that  are  getting 
!$3.50  a week  have  some  money  in  the  bank?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I know  that, 
i;  SENATOR  BEALL:  You  know  that  there  is  not  a human  being  on 
earth  that  can  live  on,  to  use  the  old-fashion  phrase,  “hog  and  hominy” 
unless  they  get  it  out  of  somebody  else,  that  is  all  there  is  to  it.  They 
can’t  live  on  $3.50  a week.  Now,  don’t  you  think  it  would  be  a nice  thing 
for  your  firm,  you  make  good  profits,  you  make  money  down  there?  A. 
I don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  You  can  guess  at  it;  you  all  get  good  salaries;  now,  don’t  you 
think  it  would  be  a nice  thing  for  your  firm  if  you  would  give  your  girls 
living  wages:  take  it  right  to  heart  and  think  about  it  before  you  answer 
:it.  Don’t  you  think  it  would  be  a good  thing  to  recommend  to  your  firm 
that  those  girls  getting  not  over  $3.40,  or  thereabouts,  ought  to  get  from 
$6.00  to  $8.00  a week?  A.  These  girls  will  receive  this  salary  after  they 
'work  a short  time;  this  salary  is  a starting  wage. 


I Q.  We  have  a bill  pending  here  in  the  General  Assembly  for  a 
■minimum  wage;  what  do  you  think  that  a girl  can  live  on  nicely,  dress 
respectably,  go  to  shows  once  in  a while  and  live  right,  like  you  would 
ilike  your  people  to  live,  as  you  could?  A.  I am  not  qualified  to  answer; 
fl  don’t  know,  I don’t  know. 

; Q.  Well,  do  you  think  $8.00  would  be  too  much  or  too  little?  A.  I 
ithink  $8.00  would  be  quite  a high  wage  to  start  girls  in  at. 
i Q.  I don’t  mean  that.  To  live  on?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I think  $8.00  would 
be  high. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  would  be  a good  plan  to  talk  to  your  superiors 
iabout  that  matter;  other  concerns  in  Chicago  have  volunteered  to  do 
that;  don’t  you  think  it  would  be  a good  thing  all  around  to  raise  your 
girls  to  $7.00  or  $8.00  a week;  they  are  working  at  subordinate  work; 
would  you  be  willing  to  say  that  you  would  be  willing  to  discuss  it  with 
jthem?  A.  I would  be  very  willing  to  discuss  it. 

i Q.  We  are  here  to  try  to  help.  A.  We  are  very  willing  to  profit 
|by  the  advice  of  the  Committee. 

I Q.  Would  you  be  willing  to  attend  a meeting  here  given  by  the 
ilmerchants  and  head  men  in  business  to  form  some  organization  to  pro- 
jmote  the  welfare  of  those  girls?  A.  I would  be  very  glad  to. 

! Q.  Would  you  be  willing  to  ask  your  people  to  attend  a meeting  of 
■that  kind?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  that  would  be  a good  thing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  the  reason  for  your  firm  paying  the 
employes  through  Brink’s  Express?  A.  Simply  to  save  money,  to  save 
the  money  being  handled  in  the  cashier’s  office. 

Q.  How  do  you  make  that  out?  A.  Brink’s  Express  do  business; 
they  have  a great  many  houses  in  Chicago,  and  they  make  a certain  price 
per  envelope  for  making  up  this  money,  and  we  send  over  a c^eck  and 
voucher  with  the  pay  roll  to  the  various  shops,  and  they  make  up  the 
money  and  deliver  it  and  are  responsible  for  it. 


[ Q.  Make  it  up  into  individual  checks?  A.  Into  individual  envelopes, 
ji  Q.  Then  the  money  goes  out  of  the  house  to  Brink’s  Express?  A. 
[Yes,  sir;  Brink’s  Express,  it  finances  all  of  it. 

!l  Q.  What  is  the  object  of  that?  A.  Simply  this,  to  lessen  the  danger 
/of  any  irregularities  in  the  cashier’s  office  in  the  house,  Brink’s  being 
.entirely  responsible  for  the  money;  they  also  assume  responsibility  of 


I 


416 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


payment  of  money  to  help;  they  take  the  responsibility  of  taking  the 
money  over  from  downtown  places  and  distributing  it  to  the  various 
places  where  people  must  be  paid. 

Q.  Where  do  they  pay  the  money  to  the  employes?  A.  In  the 
shops. 

Q.  They  pay  the  money  to  the  employes  in  the  shops?  A.  A man  i 
comes  out  from  Brink’s  and  pays  the  help;  nobody  gets  the  money  but 
the  help. 

U-.  What  would  be  the  object;  I am  trying  to  find  out  why  you  have 
a cashier  and  you  have  a business  manager.  A.  We  have  a cashier,  but 
we  don’t  want  the  cashier  to  handle  the  cash.  We  have  no  facilities  for 
sending  money  five  or  six  miles,  or  four  miles,  or  three  miles,  to  our  | 
store  with  a wagon  guarded  properly  so  the  money  would  not  be  stolen,  i 
and  Brink’s  have,  and  they  take  that  responsibility. 

Q.  All  of  your  employes  in  your  local  shop  or  store?  A.  We  have 
no  employes  downtown. 

Q.  Wherever  your  factory  is;  how  many  have  you  got  there?  A.  At 
the  factory? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  In  one  factory  we  have,  I should  say,  we  have  350  or 
400  employes. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  are  girls?  A.  About,  I don’t  know  the 
exact  amount,  I should  say  130. 

Q.  A hundred  and  thirty  girls?  A.  A hundred  and  thirty  or  a hun- 
dred and  forty  girls. 

Q.  And  you  pay  all  these  people  through  Brink’s  Express  also?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  For  no  other  reason  than  that  you  don’t  want  to  handle  the  cash? 

A.  It  simply  protects  us  against  any  loss  in  transportation  back  and 
forth. 

Q.  You  have  no  other  reason  for  it?  A.  Absolutely  none;  could 
not  be  any  that  1 know  of. 

Q.  Do  the  girls  lose  the  cost  of  the  distribution  of  the  money?  A. 
No,  they  have  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  The  house  pays  it?  A.  The  house  pays  it. 

Q.  Who  is  it  that  decides  the  amount  of  money  that  these  girls  are 
to  have;  is  that  within  your  province?  A.  No,  sir;  the  amounts  of 
money  are  decided  between  the  foreman  and  the  girl  when  she  applies  for 
a position. 

Q.  Who  controls  the  foreman  as  to  what  he  is  to  pay?  A.  The 
market  controls  the  foreman  what  he  has  to  pay.  I don’t  know  that  you 
get  my  meaning,  if  you  get  my  meaning  or  not. 

Q.  No,  I don’t.  A.  There  are  in  this  community  in  Chicago  a great 
many  shops;  a great  many  shops  of  this  kind  making  clothing. 

Q.  Yes.  A.  And  the  price  for  certain  operations  in  these  various 
shops  are  about  the  same  throughout  the  trade,  so  a girl,  when  she  | 

wants  to  get  work  as  an  operator,  she  starts  work  on  piece  work.  | 

Q.  Yes.  A.  And  she  knows  just  about  what  she  can  get. 

Q.  That  is  the  work  you  have  described  to  us  as  piece  work?  A. 
This  is  piece  work. 

Q.  So  when  you  say  that  an  employe  is  getting  five  dollars  a week,  i 
do  you  understand  that  means  that  she  is  getting  that  providing  she  can 
make  up  the  number  of  pieces  sufficient  to  justify  paying  the  five  dollars? 

A.  I take  the  full  week,  the  full  week,  the  girls  we  have  been  talking  I 

about  getting  three  dollars  and  a half  the  first  week,  the  following  week  i 

are  earning  four  and  a half  or  five  dollars  this  week. 

Q.  But  in  order  to  earn  even  three  dollars  and  a half,  or  three  dollars  I 
and  forty  cents  a week,  she  would  have  to  do  a certain  amount  of  work? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  she  would  have  to  do  a certain  amount  of  work. 

Q.  And  she  would  necessarily  fall  below  that  wage  if  she  was  not 
speedy  enough  to  turn  out  a sufficient  number?  A.  She  could  easil}' 
fall  below  that. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


417 


Q.  She  could?  A.  A girl  who  could  not  do  that  would  be  of  no 
value  at  all;  we  could  not  use  her  at  all. 

Q.  Even  this  wage  that  you  have  described  to  this  Committee  is 
not  a fixed  wage?  A.  No,  it  is  a minimum  wage  in  other  words. 

Q.  It  is  not  a minimum  wage  even  unless  the  girls  succeed  in  making 
enough  garments?  A.  If  the  girl  don’t  succeed  we  don’t  want  to  keep 
her. 

Q.  If,  for  instance,  the  girl  is  able,  if  she  is  up  to  the  standard  where 
you  will  employ  her.  if  she  is  up  to  where  she  will  make  three  dollars 
and  a half  a week  as  a minimum,  you  employ  her;  if  she  is  not  she  loses; 
is  that  the  idea?  A.  No.  that  is  not  exactly  the  idea. 

Q.  What  is  the  idea?  A.  A girl  to  start  with,  a girl  to  start  in 
with  a new  job,  we  have  had  girls  make  eight  or  ten  dollars  on  their 
work  and  then  they  will  willingly  stop  eight  or  nine  dollar  work  and 
start  in  on  another  position  in  which  they  can  advance  themselves  further 
on;  there  are  certain  portions  on  a garment  that  will  eventually  pay  a 
girl  more  than  others  will;  there  is  a greater  possibility  for  a greater 
amount  of  money.  A girl  will  deliberately  stop  that  portion  and  start  in 
on  something  which  will  promise  her  more  money  for  the  future.  She 
will  say,  “I  want  to  start  in  making  pockets,”  for  instance. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  I understand  you  to  say  that  the  market 
governs  this  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  market?  A.  The  clothing  industry 
as  a whole. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  to  say  that  you  have  an  association  with  an 

agreed  price  of  what  you  would  pay  for  piece  work?  A.  No,  sir,  but 

that  price  is  pretty  nearly  the  same  from  place  to  place. 

Q.  You  say  there  are  several  of  your  lines  of  business  in  Chicago? 

A.  Lots  of  it. 

Q.  If  you  were  paying  twenty-five  cents  for  making  a garment,  do 
.they  all  pay  that  same  price?  A.  No,  sir;  as  a matter  of  fact  there  is 
a great  scarcity  of  girl  labor  in  Chicago  at  the  present  time. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  At  three  dollars  and  forty  cents  a week? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  I didn’t  say  that. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Does  the  Manufacturers’  Association  fix  the 
price? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  They  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  price;  the 
price  varies  from  house  to  house. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Did  you  say  a while  ago  you  had  agreed  on 
the  price?  A.  No,  sir,  I said  the  foreman  and  the  girl  agreed  on  the 
price. 

Q.  But  you  have  no  agreed  price  among  you  manufacturers?  A.  No, 
I would  not  infer  that  for  a minute. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  do  you  mean  by  market? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  By  market  I mean  just  this,  that  there  is  a 
certain  amount  of  money  in  each  operation  in  a garment,  that  amount  of 
money  is  not  fixed,  it  depends  on  a great  many  things;  it  depends  on 
the  market  conditions,  on  the  number  of  garments  that  are  being  made 
in  the  market,  on  the  number  of  people  that  are  being  employed;  upon 
the  amount  of  work  that  a girl  can  do  a week.  That  is  what  it  depends 
on  and  that  is  what  I mean  by  the  market. 

Q.  How  do  you  feel  the  market,  by  intuition?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  do  you  ascertain  what  the  market  is  by  a conference,  by  talk- 
ing with  people  in  the  same  line  of  business?  A.  By  the  girls.  A girl 
won’t  go  to  work  for  you  if  she  can  get  more  money  from  the  next 
man;  that  is  common  sense. 

Q.  Have  the  men  in  your  line  of  business  an  association?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  discuss  at  those  meetings?  A.  General  clothing 
policies. 

Q.  The  matter  of  wages  you  consider  not  to  be  a business  policy 
to  be  discussed?  A.  No,  sir;  it  is  not  a business  policy  to*be  discussed. 


418  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  a representative  of  this  Committee  last  week? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  to  whom  one  of  our  investigators  talked  last 
week  at  your  establishment?  A.  The  only  person  one  of  your  investi- 
gators could  have  talked  to  was  our  foreman  of  the  shop. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Hyman.  I know  an  investigator  was 
out  in  one  of  our  shops. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that?  A.  Mr.  Hyman. 

Q.  Mr.  Hyman  also  told  Mr.  Rosenwald  and  Mr.  Weil,  or  you  told 
them?  A.  I told  them. 

Q.  Mr.  Hyman  was  the  man  who  told  our  investigators  that  this 
firm  never  paid  less  than  six  dollars  a week?  A.  I don’t  know  what  he 
told  them;  I was  not  present  and  I don’t  know  what  he  told  them. 

Q.  Would  you  think  that  the  absence  of  Mr.  Rosenwald  and  Mr.  W’eil 
is  accounted  for  by  the  fact  that  our  investigators  were  told  by  your  firm 
that  no  girl  over  there  got  less  than  six  dollars  a week?  A.  No,  sir,  ab- 
solutely not;  they  didn’t  know  that;  they  don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  do  you  make,  men’s  suits?  A.  No,  sir, 
we  don’t. 

Q.  What  do  you  make?  A.  Clothing  specialties. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  clothing  specialties?  A.  Vests  and  smoking 
jackets. 

Q.  When  you  start  to  make  vests  how  many  operators  are  put  on  a 

vest  from  the  start  to  the  finish?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  that. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  approximately?  A.  No,  I couldn’t  even  approximate  it. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  us  what  the  average  vest  represents  in  wages?  A. 

No,  sir. 

Q.  You  couldn’t  tell  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  could  tell  us  that?  A.  You  would  have  to  call  in  on  vests 
the  outside  contractor;  we  place  our  vests  through  outside  contractors; 
we  don’t  make  them  ourselves. 

Q.  Then  this  matter  of  wages  does  not  affect  the  vest  business  at 
all?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  tell  us  something  that  it  does  affect.  A.  The  pants  business. 

Q.  You  do  manufacture  pants  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir,  some  of  that. 

Q.  Will  you  give  to  this  Committee  the  name  of  one  of  . your  sub- 
contractors who  manufactures  vests  for  you?  A.  Nels  Nelson. 

Q.  Where  is  he?  A.  At  Wellington  and  Sheffield. 

Q.  Well,  I will  suggest  that  we  get  Nels  Nelson  of  Wellington  and 
Sheffield  in  and  see  what  they  get  for  them  for  sweating  the  work  out 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  He  gets  a certain  amount  of  money.  If  he 
can  get  it  made  for  nothing,  it  is  up  to  him. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  I understand  that  you  give  it  to  him 
and  he  subcontracts  it  out? 

MR.  RIESENFELD:  No,  he  has  got  a shop' of  his  own. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  He  sublets  it  out?  A.  He  runs  it  the  same  as 
any  other  shop. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  all  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is  all  piece  work. 

Q.  You  can’t  give  us  any  information  on  the  manufacturing  end  of 
this  at  all?  A.  On  the  details  of  figures,  I can’t. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Well,  I don’t  see  that  there  is  any  use  of  ask- 
ing any  information  from  you.  When  can  we  get  the  proprietors  of  5 our 
place  of  business?  A.  I think  you  can  get  them  tomorrow. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I now  move  that  we  go  into  executive  session. 
I think  that  we  have  enough  here  to  last  us  for  a day  or  two. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  I second  the  motion. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  It  is  moved  and  seconded  that  the  Cora- 


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419 


mittee  go  into  executive  session.  Those  in  favor  say  aye.  The  motion 
prevails. 

Whereupon  the  Committee  excluded  all  outsiders  from  the  room 
and  went  into  executive  session. 


SESSION  XIV 


Committee  meets  in  executive  session  to  confer  with  twenty- 

one  State  street  merchants,  who  agree  to  consider  ways  and  means 

for  improving  the  conditions  of  their  female  employes. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  April  7,  1913,  10:00  o’clock  A.  M. 

BE  IT  REMEMBERED  that  on  this  seventh  day  of  April,  1913 
A.  D.,  the  Illinois  Senatorial  Vice  Committee  met  in  executive  session 
at  the  Hotel  La  Salle,  Chicago.  Lieutenant-Governor  O’Hara 
(Chairman)  presided,  and  all  the  members  of  the  Committee — 
namely:  Senator  Beall,  Senator  Juul,  Senator  Tossey  and  Senator 
Woodard — were  present.  The  object  of  the  meeting,  from  which  the 
public  was  excluded,  was  to  confer  with  merchants — several  of  whom 
had  already  testified  before  the  Committee — regarding  the  most  feasible 
means  that  could  be  adopted  to  improve  the  financial  condition  of 
girls  employed  in  stores  and  factories. 

Among  the  merchants  reported  to  be  present  were : Mr.  James 
Simpson,  Marshall  Field  & Co.;  Mr.  Edwin  F.  Mandel,  Mandel 
Brothers;  Mr.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr.,  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Co.;  Mr. 
Thomas  A.  Stevens,  Charles  A.  Stevens  & Bros. ; Mr.  E.  H.  Leh- 
mann, The  Fair;  Mr.  Louis  F.  Simon,  Maurice  Rothschild;  Mr.  E. 
Burnham,  D.  S.  Bosley,  Jenkins  & Co. ; Mr.  Tolbert  T.  Bleeks,  Valen- 
tine Designing  and  Dressmaking  School;  Mr.  A.  L.  Kesner,  Evan 
Lloyd  & Co.;  Mr.  D.  A.  Griesman,  Palmer’s  Cloak  Store;  Mr.  Harry 
Kupper,  The  Model;  Mr.  A1  H.  Rich,  A.  Bishop  & Co.;  Mr.  Julius  J. 
Schnadig,  Friend’s;  Mr.  J.  R.  Anthony,  Emporium-World;  Mr.  David 
Komiss,  Stanley  William  & Co. ; Mr.  C.  C.  Griswold,  F.  W.  Wool- 
worth  Company;  Mr.  Salvator  Melando,  B.  F.  Rubel  & Co. ; Mr.  W.  V. 
Vierbuchen,  Palmer  House;  Mr.  D.  F.  Miller,  Cutler  Shoe  Company; 
Mr.  Lemuel  Bezark,  Leslie  Millinery  Company. 

At  the  conclusion  of  the  executive  session  and  when  the  doors  had 
been  thrown  open  for  the  admission  of  the  public,  the  following  state- 
ments were  made : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  The  Committee  and  merchants  on  State 
street,  who  have  extended  the  Committee  the  courtesy  of  attending  with- 
out the  service  of  subpoenaes,  have  talked  over  the  matter  of  wages  paid 
to  girls  and  women  on  State  street.  The  discussion  has  been  entirely 
informal  and  frank.  No  definite  results  can  be  named  other  than  the 
calling  of  a meeting  of  State  street  merchants  in  the  near  future  to  dis- 
cuss means  of  bettering  the  conditions  of  the  girls  and  women  employed 
in  the  stores.  The  merchants  believe  the  girls  and  women  on  State 
street  are  the  best  paid  of  any  class  of  woman  workers  in  Illinois — that 
they  are  the  best  taken  care  of  and  the  best  looked  after — and  they  have 
told  the  Committee  what  they  have  done  toward  bettering  the  condi- 
tions of  their  girl  employes.  The  Committee  has  not  committed  itself  and 
is  holding  its  action  in  abeyance. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I made  a proposition  to  the  gentlemen  that 
instead  of  giving  money  to  colleges  and  churches  they  get  together  and 
build  a hotel  for  their  girl  employes,  where  the  girls  may  get  good  homes — 

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good  meals  and  a good  place  to  sleep,  with  proper  surroundings — for 
$2.75  or  $3.00  a week.  This  hotel  should  be  managed  by  matrons  that 
would  give  the  girls  motherly  care.  This  idea  met  with  the  approval 
of  most — I might  say  all — of  the  merchants,  and  they  are  going  to  take  it 
up.  They  also  are  going  to  take  up  the  wage  question,  and  if  they  get 
together  and  suggest  some  wage  as  a minimum  and  set  an  example  for 
the  state,  their  influence  would  be  great.  They  are  of  the  opinion  a 
minimum  wage  law  should  make  provision  for  apprentices,  with  a sliding 
scale  for  this  class  of  employes.  Is  that  about  right,  gentlemen?  (Con- 
cluded Senator  Beall,  directly  addressing  the  merchants  who  had  been  in 
conference  with  the  Committee.) 

SENATOR  JUUL;  The  merchants  of  State  street  have  conceded 
to  the  Committee  that  its  labors  have  made  the  merchants  do  a lot  of 
thinking  and  they  have  promised  that  as  far  as  it  is  in  their  power  they 
will  be  glad  to  remedy  the  conditions  of  working  girls  and  women. 

At  1:30  P.  M.  the  Committee  adjourned  to  meet  again  at  10:00 
o’clock  A.  M.,  April  11,  1913,  in  the  Hotel  La  Salle,  Chicago.  ' 


SESSION  XV 


A girl  recounts  her  bitter  experiences  as  a stranger  in  Chicago 
and  tells  how  she  became  an  easy  victim  of  an  immoral  youth  and 
entered  the  underworld.  Mrs.  Brittain  gives  information  gathered 
by  her  as  dance  hall  investigator.  A dance  hall  owner  promises  to 
correct  reported  evils.  Testimony  of: 

M S ; 

Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain,  superintendent  of  Juvenile  Pro- 
tective Association; 

August  Yondorf,  proprietor  of  Yondorf’s  Hall. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  April  11,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 

La  Salle  Hotel. 

The  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  met  pursuant  to  notice,  and 
the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

M— S— — ’s  Testimony. 

M — S , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 

first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  M S . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born?  A.  Detroit.  Michigan. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  to  Chicago?  A.  In  August. 

Q.  How  long  did  yon  live  in  Detroit?  A.  Until  I was  six  years 
old.  Then  I moved  to  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

Q.  With  your  parents,  of  course?  A.  Yes. 

O.  How  long  did  you  live  in  Cleveland?  A.  Three  or  four  years. 

Q.  Until  you  were  nine  or  ten;  then  where  did  you  go?  A.  To 

Buffalo,  New  York. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  in  Buffalo?  A.  About  four  years. 

Q.  And  all  this  time  you  were  living  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes. 
Q.  Are  your  father  and  mother  both  living?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  brothers  and  sisters?  A.  Yes,  I have  one  sister 

and  three  brothers. 

Q.  When  you  left  Buffalo,  where  did  you  go?  A.  Ogdensburg, 
New  York;  that  is  where  my  people  live;  I went  down  there  to  live  with 
my  aunt  and  uncle. 

Q.  You  were  about  fifteen  when  you  left  your  father  and  mother 
and  went  to  live  with  your  aunt?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  live  with  your  aunt?  A.  Just  a little  over 
a year. 

Q.  Then  you  came  to  Chicago?  A.  I went  back  home  for  a couple 
of  months. 

Q.  After  being  home  with  your  father  and  mother  a couple  of  months 
you  came  to  Chicago?  A.  Yes.  . 

C*.  How  did  you  happen  to  come  to  Chicago?  A.  My  father  and 
mother  separated,  and  my  father  wanted  me  to  come  to  Chicago  and 
keep  house  for  him  this  winter.  He  told  me  to  meet  him  at  Toledo. 
I met  him  at  Toledo  and  then  he  got  me  a room  and  told  me  to  stay 
there  a couple  of  days  and  then  told  me  to  start  for  Chicago.  He  is 
a sailor.  His  boat  was  leaving  and  it  would  get  here,  and  he  told  me  to 
start  so  as  to  meet  his  boat  here,  to  get  here  in  time  to  meet  him  here. 

I started  before  he  told  me  to. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  came  alone?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  any  girl  travel  with  you?  A.  There  was  some  school 
teacher  from  Peoria,  Illinois. 

Q.  Where  did  you  first  go  when  you  reached  Chicago?  A.  I went 
to  Leonard’s  grocery  store.  My  father  told  me  to  go  there,  and  he 
would  call  my  brother. 

Q.  You  did  as  instructed?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Your  brother  was  called?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  did  your  brother  take  you?  A.  He  said  he  didn’t  know 
very  much  about  Chicago,  so  he  took  me — we  W'ent  down  Clark  Street 
and  then  we  turned  into  Dearborn  and  he  got  me  a room  over  on  Dear- 
born Street. 

Q.  You  finally  got  a room,  or  some  place  to  live?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  did  your  brother  live?  A.  Number  nine  hundred  and 

something  on  Dearborn,  I don’t  know  what  the  number  is. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  at  that  place?  A.  Well,  I couldn’t  say 

exactly;  a little  over  a month. 

Q.  And  during  that  time  you  were  being  supported  by  your  brother? 
A.  By  my  father.  He  reached  here  the  next  daj'. 

Q.  Then  you  lived  with  your  father?  A.  No,  I was  living  by 
myself  on  Dearborn  Street;  of  course  my  father  stays  on  the  boat,  but 
he  w'as  down  there. 

Q.  Now,  where  did  you  take  your  meals,  in  different  restaurants 
around?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  at  any  of  these  restaurants,  anj-  women,  did  you 
make  any  acquaintances?  A.  Yes,  I met  a girl. 

Q.  What  was  her  name?  A.  A M . 

Q.  How  old  a girl?  A.  Why,  I guess  she  is  about  seventeen  or 
eighteen. 

Q.  Where  did  j'ou  meet  her?  A.  In  the  restaurant;  it  is  414  Clark 
Street;  I don’t  know  the  name. 

Q.  You  were  pretty  friendly  with  A M ? A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  became  chums?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  did  A M say  anytliing  to  you  about  her 

social  life?  A.  Wliy,  she  didn’t  at  first. 

Q.  Was  slie  well  dressed?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Seemed  to  have  a little  money?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  she  tell  you  how  she  got  her  money?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  she  ever  introduce  you  to  any  men?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  To  whom?  A.  To  a fellow  by  the  name  of  Wallace. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  Mr.  Wallace,  in  this  restaurant?  A.  No, 

I met  him  up  in  a cafe. 

Q.  Where?  A.  L^p  at  Otto  Inn. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  On  Clark  Street. 

O.  Where?  A.  Not  on  Clark  Street,  at  Chicago  Avenue  and  Rush. 

Q.  You  met  this  girl  in  the  restaurant  and  she  had  told  you  that 
she  wanted  you  to  meet  a good  friend  of  hers?  A.  Why,  no,  sir,  we 
met  a couple  of  fellows;  they  asked  us  to  go  there  and  have  a drink. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  these  fellows?  A.  I met  them,  why,  on 
Clark  Street,  just  leaving  the  restaurant. 

Q.  You  met  them  at  the  restaurant?  A.  Yes,  and  she  stopped 
and  spoke  to  them. 

Q.  A M knew  these  fellows?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  had  been  dining  with  A M and  had  left  the 

restaurant  with  her?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  as  you  left  the  restaurant  a couple  of  fellows  came  up  that 
she  knew  and  she  introduced  you  to  these  men,  and  they  invited  you 
over  to  this  Otto  Inn  to  get  a drink?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


425 


Q.  Did  you  go?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  you  drink,  what  kind  of  a drink  did  you  order?  A. 
Why,  I had  a lemonade. 

Q.  What  did  the  rest  of  them  have?  A.  Why,  one  of  the  fellow’s 
had  a lemonade  and  the  others  had  beer. 

Q.  How  many  lemonades  did  you  drink  there?  A.  Just  one. 

Q.  Up  to  this  time  had  you  ever  tasted  any  drink  stronger  than 
lemonade?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  had  been  a drinking  girl?  A.  No,  sir,  never. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  at  the  Otto  Inn?  A.  Why,  we  only 
stayed  there  about  an  hour,  and  then  this  fellow  Wallace  was  over  at 
one  of  the  other  tables. 

Q.  Yes.  A.  And  she  motioned  to  him  and  called  him  over,  and 
she  walked  back  and  he  walked  back,  that  didn’t  take  very  long,  and 
sent  a note  over  to  her  that  we  should  take  those  fellow’s  out  and  shake 
them,  so  we  went  out. 

Q.  You  went  out  with  these  fellows?  A.  Yes,  and  we  left  them 
on  the  corner  there  near  the  room,  and  we  went  in  the  house  and  when 
we  came  put  again  Wallace  and  a fellow  named  McCurdy  were  outside 
waiting  for  us. 

Q.  Where  did  Wallace  and  this  fellow  McCurdy  take  you?  A.  Over 
to  the  Otto  Inn. 

Q.  Did  you  have  some  more  drinks  there  at  this  time?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Still  lemonade?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  order  then?  A.  Beer. 

Q.  First  time  you  had  taken  beer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  Until  about  tw’elve  o’clock, 
or  one  o’clock. 

Q.  You  had  been  there  three  or  four  hours  then?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Drank  pretty  freely?  A.  No,  sir,  I only  had  two  glasses  of 
beer. 

Q.  The  four  of  you  left  together?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go?  A.  To  the  Cozy  Lunch  Room  on  State 

Street. 

Q.  And  what  did  you  do  at  the  Cozy  Lunch  Room?  A.  We  got 
something  to  eat. 

Q.  How  long  w’ere  you  there?  A.  Just  about  fifteen  minutes. 

A M and  McCurdy  went  out,  and  Wallace  and  I stayed 

there  for  a while. 

Q.  Where  did  you  and  Wallace  go?  A.  We  went  home. 

Q.  He  left  you  at  the  door  of  your  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  next  see  Wallace?  A.  About  two  nights  after. 

Q.  What  happened  this  night?  A.  Why,  we  went  over  to  the 

Otto  Inn  again. 

Q.  Had  some  drinks  there  again?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  drink  there  this  night?  A.  I had  some  beer. 

Q.  Did  you  have  anything  stronger?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  want  you  to  drink  anything  stronger?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  want  you  to  drink?  A.  Whiskey. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  suggestions  to  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  suggest?  A.  That  we  go  up  to  a hotel. 

Q.  What  hotel?  A.  The  Superior  Hotel. 

Q.  Is  that  far  from  the  Otto  Inn?  A.  No,  sir,  it  is  just  about 
three  blocks. 

Q.  Did  you  go?  A.  No,  sir,  I didn’t. 

Q.  You  were  angry  when  he  made  these  suggestions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  showed  your  resentment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  Why,  he  didn’t  say  very  much  of  any- 
thing; he  didn’t  say  very  much. 

Q.  Now,  at  this  time  you  had  been  a good  girl?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  continued  to  see  Wallace?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  that  night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  saw  him  every  day?  A.  No,  sir,  not  every  day,  about 
every  other  day. 

Q.  Where  would  you  see  him?  A.  He  would  come  down  to  the 
house  after  me. 

Q.  And  take  you  wlrere?  A.  To  the  Otto  Inn. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  old  were  you  at  that  time,  did  you  say? 
A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  This  was  just  recently?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  He  asked  you  always  to  go  to  the  Otto 
Inn?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  this  continued  for  several  weeks,  did  it?  A.  Tw^o  weeks. 

Q.  This  courtship?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  happened?  Tell  it  in  your  own  way.  A.  One  night 
we  went  to  the  Otto  Inn  as  usual.  He  ordered  whiskey  and  I wouldn’t 
drink  it.  He  wanted  me  to  go  to  the  hotel  with  him,  but  I wouldn’t 
say  “yes.”  I didn’t  go  with  him  willingly. 

Q.  How  did  you  go?  A.  I drank  two  glasses  of  beer,  and  I didn’t 
remember  anything  more  until  I woke  up  in  the  morning. 

Q.  After  taking  those  two  drinks  you  felt  unconscious?  A.  Yes,  I 
felt  dizzy  and  sick;  I don’t  know  how  I felt. 

Q.  Did  the  beer  on  this  particular  night  not  taste  as  it  had  on 
previous  occasions?  A.  Why,  I don’t  know,  I didn’t  take  particular 
notice  while  I was  drinking  it. 

Q.  Did  you  feel  any  differently  after  taking  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I did. 

Q.  Do  you  want  this  Committee  to  believe  that  in  your  judgment 
that  beer  given  you  on  the  night  mentioned  was  drugged,  that  it  was 
doped?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  are  convinced  in  your  own  mind  that  there  were  “knock- 
out drops”  in  that  beer  that  night?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  think  so,  you  say?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  felt  peculiar?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Now,  after  taking  this  beer  and  feeling 
peculiar  and  irresponsible,  what  happened?  A.  I don’t  remember. 

Q.  What  was  the  next  that  you  remember?  A.  I woke  up  in  the 
morning  and  I was  up  in  the  Superior  Hotel. 

Q.  Alone?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  Wallace  with  you  at  the  hotel?  A.  Why,  I don’t  remember, 
he  came  back  afterwards.  He  came  back  about  an  hour  after  I w'as  up. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  He  wanted  to  know  how  I felt.  I told 
him  I felt  all  right. 

Q.  Now,  you  have  no  recollection  of  anything  that  happened  from 
the  time  that  you  took  those  two  glasses  of  beer  until  the  next  morning 
when  you  woke  up  alone  in  a room  in  the  Superior  Hotel?  A.  No,  sir, 
none  at  all. 

Q.  When  you  woke  up  you  didn’t  know  you  were  in  the  Superior 
Hotel?  A.  No,  sir,  I didn’t. 

Q.  And  the  first  intimation  you  had  of  your  whereabouts  was  when 
Wallace  returned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  him  what  happened  the  night  before?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
and  he  said  I was  sick. 

Q.  And  that  he  had  taken  you  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  Why,  I got  up  right  away 
and  went  out. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


427 


Q.  With  Wallace?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know  nothing  happened  at  the  hotel  that  night? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  you  left  the  hotel  the  next  morning  after  being  there 
you  believed  you  were  still  a good  girl?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  weren’t?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  You  were  not  up  when  he  called  there,  you 
were  still  in  bed?  A'.  No,  I was  up;  I had  been  up  just  about  an  hour. 

Q.  Were  you  dressed  when  he  came?  A.  Why,  partly. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  did  he  treat  you?  A.  He  said  I 
had  been  awful  sick  and  he  had  taken  me  up  there  and  he  told  me  to 
get  on  my  things  and  we  would  go  down  and  get  something  to  eat;  and 
when  he  went  down,  he  says,  “I  guess  I better  leave  you  here.” 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  don’t  want  to  go  into  the  details  of 
this,  but  I want  to  get  this  in  mind.  Were  you  seduced  during  the  night 
when  you  were  unconscious  or  irresponsible  or  were  you  seduced  in  the 
morning  when  he  returned?  A.  During  the  night. 

Q.  You  have  no  recollection  of  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I haven’t. 

Q.  After  that  you  continued  to  see  Wallace?  A.  Yes,  I saw  him 
about  twice  after  that. 

Q.  Did  you  go  out  with  him,  go  back  to  the  Superior  hotel?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  twice  after  that. 

Q.  How  did  you  gel  into  the  hotel?  The  front  door  or  the  back 
door?  A.  The  back  door. 


Q.  Did  you  register?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  Did  he  have  any  difficulty  in  getting  a room?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  owned  the  hotel?  A.  George  Burger. 

Q.  He  gave  you  a room  on  what  floor  of  the  hotel?  A.  On  the 
second  floor  of  the  hotel.  It  was  up  over  a saloon. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  you  drink  that  night,  the  second 
night?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I drank. 

Q.  Did  you  drink  whiskey  that  night?  A.  No,  I drank  beer. 

Q.  How  much?  A.  About  three  glasses  that  night. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Now,  did  the  proprietor,  or  clerk,  of  this 
hotel  know  that  you  were  not  married  to  Wallace?  A.  I don’t  know, 
I couldn’t  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  Did  the  clerk  ever  come  into  your  room?  A.  Yes,  this  was 
after;  that  was  the  owner,  they  didn’t  have  any  clerk  up  there. 

Q.  Oh,  the  owner;  the  owner  was  the  clerk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  owner  came  into  your  room  one  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
He  got  on  the  bed;  I was  not  out  of  bed  yet. 

Q.  You  had  a fight  with  him?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  your  relations  with  Wallace  continued  for  several  months? 
A.  No,  sir,  I didn’t  see  him  after  that  until  New  Year’s  Day.  Then 
I met  him  on  Clark  Street.  We  went  to  some  cafe  first  on  Clark  Street. 
I don’t  know  what  the  name  of  it  is. 


Q 

Q 

Q 

Q 

Q 

sir. 

Q 


Street 


What  did  you  do  there,  get  some  drinks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

From  the  cafe  you  went  where?  A.  To  the  Superior  hotel. 
How  long  were  you  there?  A.  All  afternoon  until  seven  o’clock. 
What  happened  at  seven  o’clock?  A.  Wallace  got  up  and  went. 
Did  your  father  ever  visit  you  at  the  Superior  hotel?  A.  No, 

He  never  did?  A.  No,  sir,  he  was  down  to  my  room  at  Rush 


Q.  Was  Wallace  in  your  room  at  that  time?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Had  he  been  coming  to  visit  you  there?  A.  No,  that  was  the 
first  time.  He  wanted  to  come  over  to  my  room,  but  I told  him  he’d 
better  go  home.  He  wanted  to  come  over  to  my  room  one  night,  but 


428 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


I told  him  he  had  better  go  home;  I told  him  I had  some  work  to  do 
that  night  and  I told  him  I couldn’t  wait  on  him  anyway,  but  he  says, 
“I  might  as  well  stay  a while,”  so  I let  him  in;  I did  not  expect  my 
father. 

Q.  And  your  father  came  while  Wallace  was  in  the  room?  A.  Yes,  • 
sir. 

Q_.  What  did  Wallace  say?  A.  Why,  he  wanted  to  jump  through 
the  window  in  the  back  and  I told  him  not  to.  He  told  me  to  lock  the 
door  and  turn  down  the  light,  which  I did. 

Q.  This  was  when  your  father  was  rapping  at  the  door,  was  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  he  called  the  man  that  run  the  place,  he  told  me,  he  said, 
“I  know  you  are  in  there,  if  you  don’t  open  that  door,  why  we  will  open 
it  for  you.” 

Q.  Well,  then  you  opened  the  door?  A.  Then  I opened  the  door 
and  Wallace  grabbed  his  hat.  He  didn’t  have  time  to  get  his  overcoat. 
He  got  out  in  front  and  called  me  to  bring  his  overcoat. 

Q.  Did  your  father  and  Wallace  have  a fight?  A.  They  were  going 
to  fight,  but  the  man  of  the  house  stopped  it. 

Q.  At  the  time  your  father  arrived  was  Wallace  fully  dressed? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  you  open  the  door  and  let  your  father  in?  A.  Be- 
cause Wallace,  he  wanted  to  jump  out  of  the  window,  and  I says,  “no,” 
and  he  says,  “Well,  pull  down  the  light  and  lock  the  door.” 

Q.  Did  you  see  Wallace  after  that?  A.  Yes,  I had  only  known 
him  about  a week  or  ten  days  then. 

Q.  Oh,  this  was  before  you  were  seduced?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  had  your  father  taken  you  away  from  there  and  broken 
up  the  affair  with  Wallace  you  might  have  escaped  what  subsequently 
happened?  A.  Why  no,  I left  my  father  then. 

Q.  He  scolded  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  your  father  came  in  did  he  accuse  you  of  having  been  a 
bad  girl?  A.  Well,  he  said  it  looked  that  way;  lie  said  it  looked  sus- 
picious. 

Q.  At  that  time  you  were  innocent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Being  innocent  and  being  accused  by  your  father,  you  took  it 
to  heart  and  left  him?  A.  He  didn’t  exactly  accuse  me,  but  he  said 
it  looked  suspicious. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  your  father?  A.  Why,  he  was  talking  to 
the  man  of  the  house,  and  I just  put  on  my  coat  and  hat  and  walked 
out. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go?  A.  I went  out  and  walked  about  two  blocks 
towards  Clark  Street,  and  I met  Wallace.  He  took  me  up  to  the  Superior 
hotel.  He  took  me  up  there  through  the  back  door  and  told  me  to  stay 
all  night  and  he  would  see  me  in  the  morning.  He  asked  me  if  I had 
any  money  and  I said  “yes,”  and  he  says,  “Well,  I will  see  you  in  the 
morning  then,”  so  I stayed  up  there  all  night,  and  in  the  morning  about 
nine  o’clock  I went  down.  I was  just  going  down  the  back  door  and  I 
met  him  just  coming  up. 

Q.  This  was  prior  to  beer  incident?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  at  that  time  you  hadn’t  given  in  to  Wallace?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Now,  last  October,  about  the  latter  part  of 
last  October,  you  met  another  man,  did  3'ou?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  a chop  suey  place?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  man?  A.  It  wasn’t  in  October,  I 
don’t  think.  He  was  Ed.  Halpin. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  meet  an  artist?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I drank  with  him 
and  he  took  me  to  a nickel  show. 

Q.  Einally  took  in  a performance  at  the  Cort  theatre  with  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  pose  for  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


429 


Q.  Entirely  in  the  nude?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get  for  that?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars. 

Q.  Twenty-five  dollars  for  one  pose?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  times  did  you  pose  for  him?  A.  Twice. 

Q.  And  you  got  each  time  twenty-five  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  take  you  into  a hotel  after  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0-  What  hotel?  A.  Morrison. 

Q.  What  name  did  he  register  under?  A.  I don’t  know  what  name; 
I think  it  was  Corner.  I am  not  positive. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  baggage  with  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

■ Q.  Did  this  man  live  at  the  Morrison  hotel  at  that  time  or  have  a 
room  there?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  All  night. 

Q.  About  what  was  the  date?  A.  This  was  in  November  some 
time,  I don’t  remember  exactly. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  this  artist  sells  pictures  of  nude  women?  A.  Yes. 

0.  Did  you  see  any  of  those  pictures  that  he  sold?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  took  your  picture  for  that  purpose?  A.  Why,  I don’t 

know  whether  he  took  it  for  that  purpose  or  not.  I suppose  he  did. 

O.  Now,  what  other  hotel  have  you  gone  to  with  men?  A.  Why, 
the  Superior,  the  Morrison,  and  the  Bresland. 

Q.  The  what?  A.  The  Bresland,  that  is  where  I stopped. 

Q.  You  had  a room  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  took  men  to  that  room?  A.  No,  they  used  to  go  up  and 

register  and  then  come  to  my  room, 

0-  You  made  a sworn  statement  to  this  Committee,  didn’t  you? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  In  that  statement  you  mentioned  the  hotel  known  as  the  LaPlant? 
A.  The  LaPlant.  that  is  where  this  Ed.  Halpin  was;  that  is  where  I 
lived  with  Ed.  Halpin. 

Q.  Who  is  Ed.  Halpin?  A.  He  is  a nephew  of  Captain  Halpin, 

chief  of  detectives;  he  has  some  place  in  the  police  department. 

0-  You  met  him  about  when?  A.  I don’t  remember  exactly,  about 
the  eighth  of  January. 

Q.  He  took  you  to  the  LaPlant  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  want  to  stay  there  with  him  or  did  )'Ou  have  a fight 

there  with  him?  A.  I had  a fight  with  him  up  in  my  room;  I wanted 

to  go  and  he  would  not  let  me  so.  He  hit  me  and  threw  me  on  the 

bed,  and  he  told  me  that  I didn’t  know  who  I had  to  deal  with. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  the  Hotel  LaPlant,  did  you  have  any  baggage 
there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  enter  this  hotel?  A.  Through  the  front  door. 

O.  You  remained  there  how  long?  A.  I stayed  there  until  two 

o’clock  the  next  day. 

Q.  Two  o’clock  the  next  afternoon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  what  happened?  A.  Why,  I had  an  engagement  down 
town.  I told  him  I had  to  go.  He  told  me  to  telephone  and  put  it  off, 
and  I told  him  that  I couldn’t  do  it.  He  treated  me  so  mean  the  nisrlit 
before  that  I would  not  go  anywhere  with  him  again,  nowhere.  He 
talked  to  me  a while  and  asked  me  to  go  and  have  a few  drinks,  and  on 
the  way  down  I did.  Then  we  went  to  a moving  picture  show.  I didn’t 
go  and  meet  this  friend  of  mine;  I telephoned  to  him  and  told  him 
that  I would  see  him  at  nine  o’clock  that  night. 

Q.  Were  you  arrested  that  day?  A.  Yes,  arrested  that  night. 

Q.  Were  you  alone  at  the  time?  A.  I was  with  Eddie  Halpin. 

Q.  He  was  arrested  too?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  you  taken?  A.  To  the  Des  Plaines  Street  station. 
We  were  charged  with  being  drunk. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Were  you  tried?  A.  Yes,  sir,  before  Judge  Mahoney. 

Q.  Were  you  fined?  A.  Yes,  two  hundred  dollars  and  costs. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I didn’t.  I went  out  to  the  Bride- 
well for  four  weeks. 

Q.  Did  your  father  know  you  were  out  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  happened  to  Halpin?  A.  Why,  he  got  fined  two  hundred 
dollars,  but  his  fine  was  suspended. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it  was  suspended?  A.  Because  the  matron 
out  in  the  Bridewell  told  me  it  was  in  the  paper  that  his  fine  was  sus- 
pended. 

Q.  Where  were  you  at  the  time  you  were  arrested?  A.  Why,  we 
were  on  Madison  Street,  just  across  the  street  from  Olson’s  cafe  on 
the  west  side.  He  had  an  arm  around  my  waist  and  he  was  staggering 
all  over.  They  were  going  to  let  me  go,  and  he  stepped  up  and  says, 
“No,  sir,  if  I go  she  goes  too.’’  There  were  two  detectives,  and  the 
other  stepped  up  and  he  says,  “We  might  as  well  take  them  both.” 

Q.  What  name  did  you  give  the  police  officers  at  that  time?  A. 
Palmer. 

Q.  That  is  the  name  under  which  you  were  arrested  and  sent  to 
the  Bridewell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  your  correct  name?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  your  father  now?  A.  Why,  he  has  been  rooming 
with  me  up  on  La  Salle. 


Q. 

Y ou 

are  living  with  him 

now?  A. 

Yes,  sir. 

Q. 

What 

are  you  doing  now? 

A.  I am 

not  working. 

I 

am  keeping 

house 

for  my 

father. 

Q. 

Are  you  a good  girl  now? 

A.  Yes. 

Q. 

You 

don’t  see  any  of  these  fellows 

any  more? 

A. 

No,  sir. 

Q.  All  this  happened  within  the  last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  up  to  a year  ago  you  were  a good  girl?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  My  girl,  this  first  man  you  were  with,  did  he 
ever  promise  to  marry  you  or  talk  to  you  along  those  lines?  A.  He  did, 
he  told  me  New  Year’s  Day. 

Q.  That  was  before  you  fell?  A.  No,  sir,  afterwards. 

Q.  Do  you  think  some  of  these  so-called  hotels  are  altogether  hotels, 
do  you  think  that  any  man  can  go  there  and  take  a woman  there  and  get 
a room?  A.  Why,  I do,  yes. 

Q.  You  have  seen  others  besides  yourself  do  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Any  man  can  pick  up  a girl  and  take  her  up  to  one  of  these 
houses  and  secure  a room,  is  that  what  you  mean?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  know  this  to  be  a fact?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  hotels  you  have  mentioned,  are  they  all  you  know  or  do 

you  know  of  more?  A.  I know  of  more. 

Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  GERTRL’DE  HOWE  BRITTAIN,  called  as  a witness  before 
the  Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Gertrude  Howe 
Brittain. 

Q.  You  are  interested  in  social  work?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I have  been,  for 
the  past  seventeen  years,  a resident  of  Hull  House  and  superintendent  of 
the  Juvenile  Protective  Association. 

Q.  In  such  capacity,  Mrs.  Brittain,  you  have  made  a study  of  the 
dance  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  have. 

Q.  And  other  kindred  institutions?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  have;  hotels  and 
cafes,  and  things  of  that  sort. 

Q.  What  do  you  care  to  say  of  the  dance  hall  as  an  influence  either 
for  good  or  evil  in  a girl’s  life?  A.  I think  it  is  a very  great  factor  in 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


431 


the  whole  question  of  the  delinquency  of  girls,  for  the  reason  that  liquor 
is  connected  with  the  dance  hall,  and  there  is  the  ease  with  which  the 
juvenile  may  get  liquor.  I think  that  the  dance  hall  itself  is  all  right.  I 
believe  in  dance  halls,  but  in  our  investigations,  in  all  of  the  dance  halls 
of  Chicago,  we  find  that  a large  number,  or  about  half,  sell  liquor  to  minors 
without  question;  when  I say  minors  I mean  a girl  under  sixteen  years 
old,  so  as  to  be  on  the  very  safe  side.  Our  investigators  have  to  estimate 
the  age  so  that  we  try  to  get  a girl  under  sixteen,  so  as  to  be  sure  she  is 
under  eighteen  when  we  make  that  statement  and  say  that  a minor  boy 
or  girl  has  received  liquor. 

Q.  You  have  such  cases,  where  minors  have  been  sold  liquor?  A.  A 
great  many. 

Q.  Have  you  the  names  and  places?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I have  made  a 
list.  There  are  over  two  hundred  dance  halls  where  they  have  allowed 
immoral  dances  and  where  liquor  was  sold  to  minors.  The  list  is  ready 
so  that  you  can  have  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  should  like  to  have  the  list  in  evidence, 
Mrs.  Brittain. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I would  like  to  explain  that  we  got  this  list 
up  in  a hurry  last  night. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Does  this  give  us  a list  of  all  the  dance  halls? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  No,  not  all  of  the  dance  halls;  but  all  of  the  dance 
halls,  where  we  haven’t  marked  a cross,  follow  the  law. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Those  you  have  under  supervision? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  those  are  under  supervision.  I would  like 
to  say  that  the  Civil  Service  Commission  has  a list.  The  Chicago  Civil 
Service  Commission  has  a list  of  dance  halls,  by  police  districts,  which 
would  make  it  more  complete  if  the  Committee  could  get  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Has  this  list  or  a similar  list  been  given  to 
the  Police  Department? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  No,  I gave  to  the  Mayor  a list  of  the  dance 
halls  showing  where  liquor  was  sold  to  minors;  that  was  over  a year  ago. 
I am  bound  to  say  that  after  that  time  he  issued  instructions  to  the  police, 
and  we  found  a very  great  improvement  for  a period  of  five  or  six 
months;  now  there  is  a great  lapse  again. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I went  to  a dance  hall  across  the  river — the 
Vermont. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  That  is  very  bad,  very  bad. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Johnson  runs  it;  he  has  nothing  but  soft 
drinks,  he  says. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I sent  one  of  our  investigators  over  there  a very 
short  time  ago  and  had  them  carry  away  a bottle  of  the  so-called  soft 
drinks — near-beer — and  had  it  analyzed,  and  it  contained  over  two  per  cent 
of  alcohol. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Can  you  furnish  this  Committee  that  evi- 
dence? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I can  give  you  the  statement  of  the  city  chemist 
and  the  statement  of  our  two  officers  who  carried  away  the  beer. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  long  ago  was  that,  Mrs.  Brittain? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I think  about  three  months  ago.  I have  the 
date  and  I have  the  evidence.  I can  give  you  a sworn  statement  in 
both  of  those  instances. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  heard  something  said  about  the 
Dearborn  Dancing  Academy,  and  the  managers  providing  friends  for  those 
who  need  them — do  you  know  anything  about  that  system? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  That  is  a thing  that  it  would  be  well  for  this 
Committee  to  go  into.  Our  officers  tell  us  that  they  were  told  by  the 
waiters  and  people  who  seemed  to  be  in  charge  that  they  would  get  them, 
a girl  if  they  wanted  one.  That  could  easily  be  followed  down,  I think, 
and  investigated.  That  w'as  meant  as  a suggestion  for  the  Committee. 


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CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  about  Dreamland? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Well,  Dreamland,  we  find,  has  been  very  decent 
in  most  respects:  I think  that  the  management  is  trying  very  hard  to 
keep  it  decent.  There  are  very  many  bad  things  connected  with  it,  such 
as  the  ease  with  which  the  patron  can  go  in  and  out,  or  go  into  a room  in 
a hotel,  and  the  ease  with  which  they  can  get  acquainted.  Up  to  this 
year  they  had  a man  and  woman  introducing  people,  that  made  it  easy  for 
people  to  get  acquainted;  they  have  entirely  given  up  that  custom  now. 
We  have  talked  to  the  management  of  Dreamland  Hall  many  times  and 
I think  that  they  are  trying  to  keep  it  clean  and  decent;  that  is  the  way 
I feel  about  Dreamland. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  They  are  trying  to? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  but  there  may  be  lots  of  things  happen 
there. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Admitting  the  management  there  is  making 
a sincere,  conscientious  effort  to  keep  it  clean,  yet  it  falls  down  in  a few 
respects;  what  further  reforms  would  you  recommend  to  increase  its 
moral  safety? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I would  like  to  have  them  make  it  difficult  for 
people  to  come  in  and  go  out.  I would  charge  a small,  general  admis- 
sion to  the  boys  and  girls  going  there,  and  be  very  careful  about  a 
repeated  admission  fee.  1 would  give  no  return  checks.  I think  that 
would  help  many  dance  halls  to  be  decent  where  liquor  is  not  sold. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  effect  would  that  have? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Well,  you  know  that  the  people  who  go  to  Dream- 
land Hall  are  not  people,  are  not  boys  and  girls,  w’ith  much  money.  Ten 
cents  seems  very  little,  but  they  don’t  like  to  pay  that  for  coming  in  the 
second  time;  they  don’t  like  to  repeat  that  ten  cents  every  hour  or  two 
to  go  out  and  get  a drink.  It  is  five  cents  a dance.  There  is  no  admis- 
sion fee.  You  come  in  and  pay  five  cents  for  dancing  and  you  can  walk 
out;  then  you  lose  nothing  by  going  back  and  forth.  The  management 
of  Dreamland  Hall  have  tried,  I know,  to  clean  up  the  neighborhood  there, 
because  I have  talked  with  the  managers,  and  there  were  some  rooming 
liouses  around  there  that  we  felt  were  very  objectionable.  They  have 
got  rid  of  those  rooming  houses. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  rooming  houses  in  that  neighborhood? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  The  rooming  houses  in  that  neighborhood;  yes, 
sir,  some  of  the  worst. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  But  there  are  still  others? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  there  are  still  a great  many  there. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Even  in  this  place,  which  you  say  is  one  of 
the  best  dance  halls  in  Chicago;  you  do  consider  Dreamland  one  of  the  best? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  One  of  the  best,  yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Even  there  the  man  may  easily  strike  up  an 
acquaintance  with  a girl? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  sir;  very  easily. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  think  that  the  management  could  im- 
prove conditions  by  charging  an  admission  fee? 

]MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  I believe  they  could.  It  is  the  Police  De- 
partment that  is  to  blame,  too.  The  men  working  in  these  places  can’t 
clean  up  these  rooming  houses;  they  can,  however,  clean  up  the  dance  hall 
and  make  it  as  pure  as  it  could  be,  but  there  is  no  use  of  cleaning  up  the 
dance  halls  if  the  police  are  not  watching  the  people  who_  run  the  rooming 
Louses  and  are  not  arresting  the  proprietors.  You  see,  it  is  only  half  of 
the  question,  to  clean  up  the  dance  hall. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How'  can  the  police  clean  up  these  hotels? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  If  the  proprietors  were  arrested  every  few  days, 
and  they  were  fined  and  the  fine  not  remitted,  which  is  so  often  done, 
I think  they  would  find  it  too  expensive  to  run  a rooming  house  of  that 
kind. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


433 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  say  that  the  boys  and  girls  who  fre- 
quent these  dance  halls  have  not  a great  deal  of  money? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Not  all  of  them.  Of  course,  there  are  some 
men  who  are  there  for  the  purpose  of  getting  girls  and  afterwards  mak- 
ing it  so  that  they  will  go  into  prostitution.  They  are  poor  working  girls, 
possibly  working  on  a small  salary. 

Q.  You  would  say  some  of  the  girls  from  department  stores?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  The}"  go  there  for  a social  hour  or  two?  A.  Yes,  from  all  walks 
of  life:  high  school  girls  and  girls  from  factories,  servant  girls  and  the 
department  store  girls — all  girls  go  there. 

Q.  Generally  the  girls  go  there  who  have  no  other  social  life?  A. 
Yes,  and  from  neighborhoods  where  there  is  no  other  social  life. 

Q.  The  dance  hall  is  the  only  social  life  open  to  them?  A.  The 
only  way  that  they  can  get  social  life — yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Then  the  question  of  the  dance  hall  is  not 
entirely  foreign  to  the  subject  of  low  wages? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Not  at  all;  I think  the  whole  thing  comes  very 
closely  together. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Is  it  your  judgment  that  an  increase  in  the 
wages  paid  our  working  girls  would  in  itself  tend  to  remove  some  of  the 
menaces  of  the  dance  hall? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I think  it  would  help.  I believe  if  we  pay  more 
we  get  a better  thing,  just  as  we  get  a better  piece  of  silk  for  a certain 
price.  Take,  for  instance:  Dreamland  is  a dance  hall;  it  is  a very  cheap 
place  and  yet  it  is  a benefit  to  the  neighborhood,  and  for  the  conditions 
I consider  it  a very  good  dance  hall.  I don’t  believe  if  the  girls  in  that 
neighborhood  got  two  dollars  a week  more  that  that  dance  hall  would  be 
a bit  better.  If  the  city  administration  or  police  would  enforce  the  laws 
governing  these  houses,  the  rooming  houses,  and  would  strictly  enforce 
the  law  in  relation  to  minors  entering  these  places,  I think  that  that 
would  make  a clean  dance  hall. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  us  get  at  it  in  another  way,  Mrs.  Brit- 
tain. If  a girl  is  making  five  dollars  a week,  as  some  of  them  have  testi- 
fied to  before  this  Committee;  she  lives  in  very  poor  quarters,  as  some 
have  told  us  they  lived  with  their  families  in  one  room;  and  the  only 
social  life  open  to  her  is  to  get  out  on  Halsted  street  or  some  other  street 
where  the  lights  are  bright;  now,  this  girl  isn’t  making  enough  money 
to  give  her  what  you  and  I would  consider  a healthy  home  atmosphere 
or  home  environments  and  she  goes  on  the  street  to  seek  the  only  social 
life  that  is  open  to  her;  she  is  walking  up  and  down  the  street  with 
another  girl,  or  two  girls,  of  the  same  sort,  in  the  same  unhappy  con- 
dition financially,  and  she  goes  to  a dance  hall;  she  may  be  fortunate  in 
going  to  a good  dance  hall,  where  thej"  are  protected,  or  she  may  be 
unfortunate  in  going  to  one  of  those  that  you  have  marked  very  plainly 
as  being  a rendezvous  for  white  slavers;  is  it  your  judgment  that  if 
every  working  girl,  who  is  now  being  underpaid,  were  paid  a living  wage, 
that  the  percentage  of  girls  who  go  to  these  unquestionably  immoral  dances 
would  be  decreased,  and  to  that  extent  this  girl’s  chances  of  escaping  harm 
would  be  increased? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I would  have  to  qualify  that.  I do  believe  that 
a girl  falls  more  quickly,  that  her  responsibility  is  lessened,  if  she  is 
underfed  and  badly  housed;  there  is  no  question  about  that.  I don’t 
think  that  the  fact  that  she  lives  in  a bad  house  makes  her  go  to  bad  dance 
halls.  I again  come  back  to  my  original  subject:  if  the  police  of  this 
city  would  clean  up  these  dance  halls,  which  they  can  under  the  law, 
these  girls  would  not  get  into  difficulty  so  easy.  It  is  a matter  of  food 
and  shelter,  and  everything  that  reduces  the  resistance  of  a girl  and  boy. 
I don’t  think  we  can  forget  the  young  boy  that  is  seduced  in  these  dance 
halls  any  more  than  we  can  forget  the  young  girls — and  there  are  hun- 
dreds of  them  seduced. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Is  it  your  judgment  that  in  closing  up  the 
dance  halls  you  are  dealing  with  the  effect  and  not  the  cause? 

MRS-  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  you  are. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  us  ascertain  the  causes. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  The  cause  on  the  girl’s  part  is,  we  will  say,  lack 
of  proper  opportunities  which  the  city  must  give;  they  should  give  small 
parks';  should  give  the  small  parks  for  playground;  should  open  the  school- 
houses  for  dances;  should  furnish  a chaperon  for  dance  halls.  It  is  easier 
and  cheaper  to  do  that  than  it  is  to  take  care  of  our  girls  who  are  ruined 
and  seduced. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Is  it  your  judgment  that  low  wages  is  an- 
other cause? 

MRS.  BRITAIN:  Yes,  low  wages  has  a bearing  on  this  thing,  on  the 
lessened  resistance  of  the  girl;  there  is  no  doubt  about  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  causes  in  your  opinion  then  are  re- 
stricted opportunities  for  social  activity,  lack  of  proper  chaperonage,  low 
wages;  and  the  Senator  wished  to  suggest  as  the  fourth  cause  lack  of 
proper  education  on  the  part  of  mothers. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  sex  education,  sex  hygiene,  positively  should 
be  taught.  Now,  this  girl  this  morning,  I was  very  much  impressed  by 
her  story.  You,  could  get  hundreds  and  hundreds  of  them  in  the  rec- 
ords of  the  Juvenile  Court.  I have  heard  that  story  over  and  over 
again:  “I  can’t  remember,  I can’t  remember  until  I found  myself  in 
the  morning.”  It  doesn’t  mean  that  liquor  is  drugged  at  all.  It  does 

mean  that  the  girl  is  in  such  a condition  that  the  liquor  has  had  an 

effect  on  her.  I have  heard  it  over  and  over  again:  “I  don’t  know  what 
is  the  matter  with  me — I feel  very  ill.”  That  is  the  last  she  remembers, 
and  the  next  thing  she  finds  herself  in  a hotel;  she  does  not  remember 
anything  that  happened  to  her.  I know  wLat  has  happened  to  her,  and 
the  doctor  knows  what  has  happened  to  her.  She  does  hot  even  know 
what  that  means  to  her.  It  is  the  ease  with  -which  the  minor  can  get 
liquor.  No-wq  in  this  case  as  in  many  cases,  we  can’t  prosecute  the  man 
who  sold  the  liquor,  because  the  girl  don’t  -want  it  done;  the  mother 
don’t  wa'nt  it  done,  the  entire  family  doesn’t  -want  it  done.  It  is  an  out- 
rage that  it  can’t  be  done,  but  it  is  the  matter  of  the  lesser  pi  two  evils 
in  this  case.  I hear  that  story  over  and  over  and  over  again:  “I  can’t 

remember  what  happened  after  that.”  I believe  it,  because  I kno-\v  these 

girls.  _ • _ 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  As  a remedy  along  this  line  that  you  have 
been  speaking  of,  what  would  you  think,  that  the  la-\v  should  require  the 
police  in  cities  of  a certain  size,  make  it  their  duty  to  visit  so  far  as 
they  might,  all  incoming  trains  and  see  after  women  who  are  alone,  and 
girls,  that  they  do  not  visit  these  dance  halls  and  wane  rooms? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I think  that  would  be  very  good. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Even  in  houses  of  prostitution,  to  see  that 
no  girl  is  kept  there  against  her  will,  and  generally  to  afford  more 
protection  to  -women? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I believe  in  women  policemen;  I believe  it  is 
necessary.  Of  course,  in  depots  we  have  pretty  good  supervision  there. 
You  see,  the  Catholic  Women’s  League  and  the  W.  C.  T.  U.,  they  try 
to  control  it.  They  go  there,  and  they  are  doing  good  work  in  meeting 
girls  as  they  come  in,  and  save  hundreds  of  girls,  but  I do  believe  in 
policewomen,  although  I do  not  think  that  the  policewoman  can  take  the 
place  of  a policeman.  I believe  that  she  should  -u-ork  -^vith  him.  I do 
not  think  that  a policeman  can  go  into  a dance  hall  and  can  do  perfect 
work  there,  but  if  there  is  a -woman  working  with  him,  together  they  could 
do  things.  Lots  of  things  happen  in  women’s  dressing  rooms,  in  the 
toilet  rooms;  you  don’t  know  what  is  .going  on  in  there.  _ A woman  can 
get  onto  that  while  a man  can  not.  I do  not  mean  a uniformed  woman 
in  a dance  hall;  I mean  a woman  to  work  with  the  police  officer. 

SENATOR  WOODARD?  To  watch? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN;  Yes.  to  be  a chaperon  and  a friend. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


435 


SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  think  that  would  be  a good 

thing? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  It  would  be  a great  thing,  I think,  if  we  could 
have  thirty  women  to  work  with  men  in  dance  halls,  cafes,  and  a selected 
group  of  men  to  work  with  them  under  .careful  supervision  and  direc- 
tion. Without  any  more  expense  to  the  city  we  could  control  this  thing; 
I am  perfectly  sure  of  it. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  think  that  thirty  women  would 
be  sufficient?  A.  Thirty  women  would  be  sufficient  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  Those  thirty  women  could  save  how  many  girls?  A.  That  would 
be  hard  to  say. 

Q.  A hundred?  A.  A hundred  a piece? 

Q.  Oh,  no,  all  told.  A.  Yes,  many  more.  I should  say  that  thirty 
girls  apiece  would  be  a very  reasonable  estimate  of  what  they  could  do. 
I do  not  mean  that  they  could  do  the  work.  They  could  find  the  indi- 
vidual and  then  refer  it  to  this  organization,  or  that  woman  or  this  man 
or  that  man;  I don’t  say  that  this  is  all  a woman’s  job;  it  is  a man’s  job 
just  as  much  as  it  is  a woman’s  job.  ^ 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  know  of  dance  halls  with  the  same 
.toilet  for  men  and  women?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  a list  showing  that  class?  A.  I didn’t  put  that  down 
there,  but  I can  get  the  names  of  the  halls.  I would  have  to  look  that  up. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  In  the  list  you  have  furnished  this  Commit- 
tee you  refer  to  some  of  the  dances  as  “crude,”  some  as  “questionable,” 
and  some  as  “vile.” 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Well,  the  word  vile  is  the  strongest  word  we  pos- 
sess in  our  vocabulary. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  does  it  mean? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  It  means  that  the  position  of  the  participants  are 
suggestive:  the  motions  suggest  only  one  thing. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  do  you  regard  the  tango,  the  turkey 
trot,  and  other  modern  dances? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Most  of  them,  I think,  have  been  evolved  from 
the  red-light  district. 

Q.  Are  not  these  dances  permitted  in  some  homes  of  the  wealthy 
and  respectable?  A.  Yes,  and  there  should  not  be  two  standards.  There 
should  not  be  two  standards  for  people,  whether  in  the  homes  or  in  the 

dance  halls. 

Q.  How  would  you  eliminate  these  dances  from  the  home?  A.  By 
education. 

Q.  Do  many  private  societies  hold  public  balls  at  these  dance  halls? 
A.  Yes,  a great  many. 

Q.  Are  these  societies  bona-fide,  or  do  they  exist  only  for  profit?  A. 
I should  say  that  two-thirds  exist  only  for  the  purpose  of  selling  liquor 
and  making  a profit  for  a few  individuals.  Those  are  the  very  worst 

ones. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  suggested  to  the  city  administration  that  a re- 
striction should  be  placed  upon  the  societies  giving  these  dances?  A. 
Yes,  I have. 

Q.  Has  the  city  administration  taken  action  on  the  suggestion?  A. 
No,  I have  gone  to  the  Mayor  and  talked  with  him  about  it.  Yesterday 
Mrs.  Bowen  and  I had  a meeting  with  the  United  Societies  about  this 
very  thing,  and  we  came  to  this  very  understanding,  and  that  was  the 
first  time  that  we  were  able  to  get  together  on  it,  and  that  is  that  we  would 
go  to  the  city  administration  and  would  ask  that  they  have  a commission  to 
pass  on  the  issuing  of  bar  permits,  except  where  a society  is  in  good 
standing.  We  arrived  at  that  understanding  yesterday  forenoon,  and  it  is 
the  only  time  that  we  have  been  able  to  get  together  on  it.  Yesterday 
afternoon  Mayor  Harrison  was  on  the  train  that  we  were  on,  and  he  told 
us  that  he  had  either  given  an  order,  or  was  to  give  an  order,  that  no 
society  was  to  be  given  the  privilege  of  conducting  a dance  unless  it  was 


436  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


in  good  standing  and  was  a real  bona-fide  society.  He  has  given  an  order 
before,  but  it  is  not  being  lived  -up  to.  He  gave  that  order  some  time 
ago,  and  for  a time  things  were  more  carefully  regulated.  This  is  what 
has  happened.  The  law  provides  for  inquiries  to  find  out  whether  or  not 
the  society  is  in  good  standing.  If  I call  for  a bar  permit — if  I go  in  and 
pay  six  dollars  for  a bar  permit — I go  on  and  hold  my  dance  on  a Satur- 
day, or  possiblj'  Sunday,  and  I am  not  responsible;  you  are  going  to  find 
out  on  Monday  or  Tuesday  that  I am  not  responsible,  but  I have  done 
the  damage.  The  dance  has  been  held  and  the  damage  has  been  done. 
That  has  been  done  over  and  over  again  through  this  special  bar  permit 
system. 

Q.  What  changes  would  you  recommend?  A.  The  Mayor  could  say 
that  no  license  would  be  issued  unless  an  application  was  made  a week 
before,  and  he  had  an  opportunity  for  investigation,  and  in  that  way  we 
could  find  out  if  it  were  a society  in  good  standing.  I believe  that  that 
would  help  tremendously. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  (referring  to  card  on  Germania  Hall);  This 
hall  has  but  one  toilet. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  You  have  a law  to  cover  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Why  isn’t  that  law  enforced? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I think  the  Building  Department  have  not  people 
enough  to  go  around  and  follow  this  up.  The  law  specifically  says  that 
they  must  be  twenty  feet  apart,  and  they  must  open  from  different  places, 
so  that  there  is  no  possibility  of  a wall  being  between  the  men’s  and 
women’s  toilet. 

Q.  That  is  already  governed  by  law?  A.  Yes,  by  city'  ordinance. 

Q.  But  is  it  being  enforced?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  call  this  particular  case  to  the  attention  of  the  police?  A. 
No,  that  is  too  new.  I am  making  up  m\'  list. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Is  it  your  opinion  that  no  intoxicating  liquors 
should  be  sold  at  these  dance  halls? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I believe  it  would  be  a great  deal  better  if  it 
was  not;  in  fact  I feel  that  if  we  could  separate  the  sale  of  liquor  from 
the  dance  hall  we  could  clean  up  the  dance  hall.  I would  like  to  read 
this  one  into  the  record.  This  is  Yondorf’s  hall. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  may  read  it. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  (Reading  as  follows:) 

YONDORF’S  HALL.  756  North  .A.venue. 

Opening  from  saloon?  Yes. 

Beer  garden  attached?  No. 

Safety?  Good. 

Cleanliness?  Very  dirty'. 

Ventilation?  Bad.  No  windows  open. 

■A^ir?  Blue  with  smoke. 

Lighting?  Good. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor 
.All  on  same  floor;  Ladies’  toilet  in  dressing  room  open  from  floor. 

Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian.'  \ es. 

Age  of  girls?  Two-fifths  were  16  to  18. 

Age  of  boys?  Alostly  young  people;  a few  married  couples; 

17  to  25,  rather  older  than  girls. 

Liquor  served?  Yes. 

Where?  Bar  opening  from  hall,  tables  around. 

Liquor  Served  to  minors?  A'es.  Also  if  it  was  offered  free  given 
and  urged  girls.  A oung  boys  and  older  drank  at  bar. 

Ages?  All  ages  over  15. 

Conduct  of  employes?  Good:  club  members  with  badges  intro- 
duced and  treated.  Several  were  Intoxicated. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


437 


Conduct  of  dancers?  Dancing  fairly  good;  spooning  openly; 
constant  drinking  and  much  intoxication. 

Dance  hall  habitues  or  rounders  present?  Two  regular  street 
women  and  probably  three  or  four  others.  Mr.  A.  was  solicited 
twice. 

Children  under  16  employed  after  7 P.  M.?  No. 

Dance  given  by  Kidalgo  Court  No.  210 — 15th  annual. 

Police  officers  present?  Four. 

Number  of  star?  4116,  4081  and  70  sergeant. 

Service  rendered?  Very  poor. 

Admission?  50  cents.  Wardrobe  50  cents. 

Lincoln  Park  Special. 

Inspected  by  E.  Belden,  J.  Anderson. 

Date  November  27,  1912. 

Remarks:  The  three  regular  police  were  seen  drinking  at  the  bar 
and  became  intoxicated  before  two  o’clock.  All  smoked,  chewed, 
and  used  vile  language  at  Mr.  A.  They  barely  escaped  getting  up 
a serious  fight.  One  was  heard  to  remark  that  “he  had  only  a little 
over  an  hour’s  time  to  kill’’  and  that  “this  was  a better  place  than 
the  street.”  None  of  them  made  any  attempt  to  render  service. 
No  notice  was  taken  of  more  or  less  intoxicated  men  who  came  up 
into  the  hall  and  bar  from  the  saloon  and  street  after  one  o’clock 
(without  paying  admission)  and  no  effort  made  to  put  out  drunken 
!i  men  or  regulate  dancing. 

Conduct  at  tables  on  floor  and  gallery  bad  all  evening.  One 
fellow  sat  for  some  time  on  a girl’s  lap  with  his  arms  about  her 
: neck;  another  couple  with  interlaced  arms  talked  with  the  first  couple, 

li  Much  familiarity  all  over  the  hall.  When  we  left,  at  three  o’clock, 

i|;  three  fellows  lay  over  on  seats  or  tables  drunk  and  asleep.  Most 

j!'  of  the  men  were  more  or  less  intoxicated.  Half  drunk  glasses  of 
ji-  . beer  stood  on  all  the  tables  and  waiters  kept  bringing  it  in,  before 
) and  after  the  dances.  I was  offered  drinks  twice  by  members  of 
I the  commitee.  One  fellow',  himself  quite  “happy,”  insisted  with  such 
{ remarks  as  “Oh,  sweetheart,  come  on,”  in  a fairly  good  fellowship 
! manner.  A glass  of  water  for  a girl  who  was  ill  was  obtained  with 

! great  difficulty  and  the  man  who  brought  it  laughed  at  this  young 

i'  girl’s  and  my  drinking  it  and  refusing  beer. 

A girl  of  about  seventeen  was  almost  overcome  from  the  bad 
S air  and  smell  of  liquor.  She  said  she  had  only  drunk  soda  water. 

I::  , Her  brother,  younger  than  herself,  refused  to  leave  the  dance  floor 
1:  to  take  her  home  until  begged  to  do  so.  A young  boy — who  said  he 

3 knew  neither  her  name  nor  her  address  nor  anything  about  her — 

}■  seeing  her  faint,  put  his  arms  around  her  and  urged  her  to  go  horne, 

* offering  to  take  her.  Another  tried  to  get  her  to  drink.  It  was  with 
difficulty  that  a girl  friend  of  the  same  age  and  inexperience,  the 
/ brother  and  one  of  the  boys  got  her  on  the  car,  she  was  so  feverish 
and  faint.  Dance  was  still  on  at  5:20  w'hen  Mr.  A.  passed  hall. 

August  Yondorf’s  Testimony. 

AUGUST  YONDORF,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  August  Yondorf. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Nothing  particular  just  now.  I 
conduct  a dance  hall;  I conduct  it  up  in  the  hall,  the  lodge  hall. 

Q.  In  a lodge  hall?  A.  That  is  my  place  of  business. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  hall?  A.  Yondorf’s  hall. 

Q.  You  have  dances  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  have  bar  privileges?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  have  heard  the  testimony  given  before  this  Committee 
concerning  your  hall?  A.  Well,  partly,  I can’t  hear  very  well. 


438 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Do  young  girls  come  to  your  dance  hall?  A.  They  come  there 
with  their  parents. 

Q.  They  never  come  alone?  A.  No,  sir,  I don’t  allow  them  in 
there;  I have  a special  door-keeper  who  is  there,  and  he  will  let  no 
one  come  up  in,  especially  a young  girl,  unless  they  come  with  their 
family.  Of  course,  if  they  come  with  their  families  that  may  take  place, 
but  I aim  to  keep  them  out. 

Q.  You  have  a door-keeper?  A.  Yes,  sir,  all  the  year  around, 
that  is  there  at  every  occasion,  and  they  furnish  me  with  a detective. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  have  dances  in  your  hall?  A.  I have  dances 
Saturday,  on  Sunday,  and  sometimes  one  during  the  week,  sometimes 
a meeting. 

Q.  Now,  at  one  of  these  Saturday  dances,  how  many  couples  are 
there?  A.  Sometimes  between  two  and  three  hundred  people. 

Q.  They  are  not  always  the  same  people?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  the  boys  and  girls  who  are  there  tonight  on  this  Satur- 
day night  are  not  the  same  boys  and  girls  who  are  there  the  following 
Saturday  night?  A.  The  question  of  boys  and  girls  don’t  come  into 
it,  at  all.  I call  them  man  and  wife.  I don’t  want  to  have  no  rough- 
house.  I keep  it  clean.  I think  I have  the  cleanest  business,  the  cleanest 
hall  on  the  North  Side;  the  cleanest  conducted  hall.  Here  is  the  names 
of  the  societies,  whom  1 rented  the  hall  to,  and  giving  the  date  when  I 
rented  the  hall. 

Q.  Tell  us  something  about  your  system  of  renting  your  hall? 
A.  They  come  to  me,  to  the  store;  it  is  not  my  store.  They  have  been 
in  the  habit  of  coming  there  at  North  Avenue  and  Larrabee  Street  to 
Yondorf  Brothers  formerly,  now  it  is  the  Yondorf  Company.  I have 
retired  from  business  and  my  brother  runs  the  store.  They  come  there 
and  rent  the  hall  and  pay  a deposit.  I happen  to  know  who  they  are,  I 
make  inquiries. 

Q.  You  have  a list  there  of  all  the  socities  to  which  you  rent? 
A.  There  is  a list  of  the  names  of  those  I have  rented  the  hall  to  for 
the  last  two  or  three  years.  I have  had  a club  come  to  me  along_  last 
week  and  wanted  to  rent  the  hall,  and  I wouldn’t  let  them  have  it.  I 
don’t  let  any  athletic  club,  or  anything  like  that,  have  my  hall. 

Q.  Do  you  prefer  charitable  clubs?  A.  Yes,  that  is  the  time  I 
give  them  the  hall. 

Q.  If  I wished  to  get  your  hall,  it  would  help  to  tell  you  that  I 
was  running  the  La  Salle  Hotel  Benefit  Association?  A.  I would  have 
to  know  it.  I wouldn’t  give  it  to  you  unless  you  had  a charter. 

Q.  Would  you  give  it  to  me  if  I had  the  money  wdth  me?  A.  No. 

Q.  But  if  I had  a good  club  and  didn’t  have  any  money?  A.  If 
you  had  a club,  an  athletic  club,  I would  not  give  it  to  you  at  all,  I don’t 

give  it  to  athletic  clubs;  you  will  notice  that  they  are  all  legitimate 

societies. 

Q.  Who  is  Mrs.  Long?  A.  She  is  a pianist  and  lives  on  Larrabee 
Street. 

Q.  Does  she  give  dances?  A.  No,  sir,  she  has  her  scholars  there 

and  gives  the  parents  a concert;  she  has  had  my  hall  three  or  four  times. 

Q.  The  La  Salle  Social  Benefit  Club?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  a strictly 
clean  lot  of  young  men,  with  their  parents,  who  are  a bona-fide  society. 

I have  let  them  have  it. 

Q.  How  many  members  are  there  in  this  societ}"",  the  La  Salle 
Social  Benefit  Society?  A.  About  a hundred. 

Q.  Who  is  the  president  of  it?  A.  Mr.  Francis. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  name?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  just  now.  t 
He  is  in  the  real  estate  business.  I think  that  is  the  only  one  you  find 
in  there  under  that  heading,  the  La  Salle  Social  Benefit  Club.  Those  are  ! 
all  mutual  benefit  societies.  The  names  are  all  there,  so  you  can  tell  '• 
what  they  are.  They  are  mostly  all  German  societies  or  Hungarian  i 
societies.  I know  that  they  behave  very  well  when  they  get  in  there,  i 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


439 


Q.  All  right,  you  let  the  hall  to  different  societies?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  hold  dances  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  protect  your  hall  from  undesirables?  A.  Yes,  sir.  1 
tell  them  to  go  out  and  stay  out,  that  is,  if  I know  who  they  are;  and 
my  man  at  the  door,  he  knows  everyone,  every  man  in  the  place  around 
there,  he  doesjiot  allow  them  in;  even  if  they  have  bought  tickets,  they 
get  their  money  back.  I am  very  strict.  I don’t  think  there  is  a hall 
in  this  city  kept  as  strict  as  mine.  If  anyone  goes_ there  without  prejudice 
and  goes  there  a number  of  times  they  will  find  it  just  what  I say. 

Q.  In  your  contracts,  do  you  reserve  the  privilege  of  refusing  ad- 
'mission  to  persons  whom  you  regard  as  undesirable?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Turn 
it  over  on  the  other  side,  please  (referring  to  copy  of  contract  in  Chair- 
man’s hand).  Rule  Number  11  says  that  parties  renting  the  hall  are 
under  obligations  to  observe  the  strictest  order  and  allow  no  persons 
of  doubtful  character,  otherwise  the  special  officer  will  be  obliged  to 
close  the  hall.  I take  the  precaution  that  a business  man  should  take. 

Q.  Your  hall  is  at  576  North  Avenue,  that’s  true,  isn’t  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  The  report  just  read  by  Mrs.  Brittain  says  that  three  policemen 
‘were  drinking  at  the  bar  and  became  intoxicated  before  two  o’clock;  do 
you  serve  drinks  at  your  bar  to  policemen?  A.  I didn’t. 

Q.  Who  does?  A.  They  are  not  supposed  to  have  any  drinks. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  policeman  at  your  bar  drunk?  A.  No, 
sir,  I haven’t;  they  wouldn’t  be  apt  to  make  a mistake  and  get  drunk  in 
my  presence  when  I am  around:  they  are  careful  about  doing  that.  I 
didn’t  invite  those  policemen  in;  they  belong  on  the  beat  and  they  come 
into  my  hall. 

Q.  Have  you  any  political  pull?  A.  I don’t  believe  I have. 

Q.  Who  is  your  friend  at  the  City  Hall?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you. 

Q.  Who  is  your  friend  in  the  police  department?  A.  I know  lots 
of  policemen,  but  I haven’t  got  any  friend  that  I should  call  my  friend. 

Q.  Can  you  call  up  the  Chief  of  Police  and  say,  “This  is  August 
Yondorf,  I want  such  and  such  a policeman  fired?’’  A.  I am  sorry  I 
haven’t  got  that  influence. 

Q.  Are  those  policemen  afraid  of  you?  A.  They  know  I don’t 
allow  anybody  in  the  bar-room.  They  are  not  afraid  of  me;  I never  made 
an  attempt  to  have  any  pull;  nor  have  I got  any  pull;  but  they  come  up 
there  I am  not  there  myself,  but  my  door-keeper  is  there,  and  if  the  police 
would  go  up  there  I couldn’t  prevent  it.  I can’t  prevent  that,  that  is 
beyond  my  control. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  public  hugging  of  young  women  in  your 
hall?  A.  Not  that  I know  of.  If  it  was  either  of  my  men  would  see  it, 
and  they  would  not  allow  it.  Either  one  of  my  men,  or  the  committee 
would  see  it. 

Q.  What  committee?  A.  The  committee  of  the  dance. 

Q.  You  say  that  never  has  happend  in  your  hall  to  your  knowledge? 
A.  I could  not  tell.  It  may  have  happened. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  in  your  hall  during  a dance  there?  A.  Oh,  yes, 
once  in  a while  I go  there,  but  I live  too  far  away;  I leave  it  to  my 
man. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  doorman?  A.  Kearney,  the  man 
that  is  there  most  of  the  time,  he  works  for  Fingelwood;  he  is  the  man 
that  is  there  more  than  any  other;  he  is  the  best  man  that  I have  got,  and 
he  knows  nearly  everybody  that  comes  there. 

Q.  He  is  your  manager  there?  A.  He  is  the  manager  and  he  has 
the  whole  thing  in  charge. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Yours  is  not  a regular  dance  hall?  A.  No. 

Q.  Not  a public  dance  hall?  A.  It  is  a public  hall. 

Q.  I mean  you  haven’t  a regular  dance  hall  where  you  yourself 
charge  so  much  a dance  or  so  much  to  come  in?  A.  Oh,  no. 

Q.  You  lease  it  out?  A.  Yes.  We  don’t  take  anybody  unless  they 
are  an  organized  club,  an  organized  society.  I had  a club  dance  two 


440 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


years  ago,  and  those  people  this  year  came  again  for  the  hall  and  1 | 

wouldn’t  let  them  have  it.  That  has  occurred  several  times.  When  they 
are  dancing  in  my  hall  they  are  there  to  have  a little  fun.  The  societies 
are  conducted  by  Hungarians,  by  Germans,  by  Italians,  bj^  Armenians, 
and  by  Masons.  Last  week  I had  a Masonic  affair,  a banquet,  and  after  i 
the  banquet  they  danced.  They  all  felt  good  and  happy,  and  I know  i 
who  they  are.  They  have  met  there  for  ten  years;  I have  two  lodges  ' 
that  rneet  in  the  hall,  and  then  they  are  dancing  there  from  time  to  time, 
and  singing  societies  have  their  meetings  there,  and  the3^  have  dances 
there. 

Q.  This  hall  bears  your  name,  doesn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  a matter  of  pride  with  jmu  to  keep  it  good  and  clean? 

A.  I try  to. 

Q.  You  are  interested  in  knowing  that  we  have  had  some  reports  | 
from  your  hall,  that  this  Committee  has  had  some  verj-  bad  reports  from 
your  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  interested  in  correcting  those  evils?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  how  are  you  going  to  do  it  after  this?  A.  I shall  probably 
look  after  it  a little  closer  and  be  more  particular  than  I have  been  in 
renting  it  out. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  you  w'ill  lose  your  bar  license?  A.  Oh,  no,  I 
don’t  know  of  anything  that  ever  occurred  that  would  make  me  lose  it.  | 
I would  not  like  to  lose  it  because  of  the  income,  some  of  the  sources 
of  income  from  an  affair  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Will  you  please  explain  how  jour  toilet  is  situated  for  men  and 
women?  A.  They  are  entirely  separated.  I have  got  a toilet  for  ladies 
on  one  side  of  the  building  and  for  men  on  the  other  side.  I have  a 
special  room  apart  for  the  ladies  on  the  one  side  of  the  building  and  a 
toilet  for  men  on  the  other  side. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Yondorf,  are  j'ou  having  a dance  at 
your  place  tonight?  A.  No. 

Q.  Tomorrow  night?  A.  No;  on  Saturday  night. 

Q.  What  societj'  is  going  to  be  there  Saturday  night?  A.  I will 
tell  you  in  a minute.  The  Chicago  Bakers’  Singing  Societj-. 

Q.  Who  is  the  head  of  that  societj-?  A.  The  man  that  rented  is 
W.  Shemberg. 

Q.  What  business  is  he  in?  A.  He  must  be  a baker,  I guess;  it 
is  the  Chicago  Bakers’  Singing  Society. 

Q.  Have  j-ou  rented  the  hall  to  this  societj-  before?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
they  rent  the  hall  nearly  everj-  j-ear. 

Q.  What  do  j-ou  charge  for  the  use  of  j-our  hall?  A.  I charge  $75 
for  Saturdaj-  and  $60  for  Sunday. 

Q.  During  political  campaigns,  did  they  ever  have  meetings  in  j-our 
hall?  A.  Oh,  j-es,  I rented  it  to  Progressives  and  Democrats,  and  I 
rented  to  them  all. 

Q.  What  do  you  charge  them?  A.  Fifteen  or  twentj-  dollars.  If 
it  happens  to  be  some  society,  possiblj-  fifteen  dollars,  or  some  particular 
friend  of  mine;  some  stranger  I would  get  twentj-;  I don’t  have  anj-  fixed 
price  for  political  parties. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  your  hall  to  any  political  party  free  of  charge? 

A.  I don’t  think  I did;  I don’t  remember,  but  I don’t  think  I did.  I 
might  and  I might  not. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  they  alwaj-s  paj-  you?  A.  Thej-  always 
paid  me.  I get  the  monej-  beforehand,  in  advance.  I would  not  know 
who  to  get  the  cash  from  afterward. 

Q.  Did  you  get  cash  in  advance  from  those  societies?  A.  I got  a 
deposit  of  $25  for  Saturday  and  $10  for  Sunday  and  thej-  paj-  the  balance 
on  the  evening  of  the  affair. 

Q.  Do  these  societies  generally  make  money?  A.  Thej-  aim  to  do  it. 

Q.  Do  they  generally  do  it?  A.  As  a rule  they  make  monej-.  I have 
had  them  make  a hundred  and  fifty  to  two  hundred,  or  as  high  as  $400. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


441 


They  don’t  make  as  much  at  the  present  time  unless  they  are  a very  wealthy 
society.  I don’t  make  inquiry,  that  is  not  my  affair,  but  members  have  told 
me  how  much  they  cleared. 

Q.  You  get  in  advance  about  twenty  dollars  on  the  sixty-dollar  en- 
gagement? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  you  trust  these  people  more  or  less?  A.  No, 
I don’t  trust  anybody  in  a case  of  that  kind.  This  is  a cash  transaction. 
There  is  the  trouble.  When  the  time  comes  you  want  to  get  your  money. 

Q.  You  don’t  get  the  rest  of  your  money  unless  the  society  takes 
Ijit  in?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  rent  your  hall,  who  has  the  bar  privileges?  A.  Well, 
the  society  itself.  They  appoint  a committee  to  take  care  of  the  bar  and 
hire  a bar-keeper  to  attend  to  the  wants  of  the  patrons. 

Q.  Does  the  society  make  most  of  its  money  out  of  the  bar  privileges? 
A.  No,  they  make  a good  deal  out  of  their  wardrobe;  they  make  forty  or 
nfty  dollars. 

Q.  Out  of  the  wardrobe?  A.  Yes;  and  they  make  it  out  of  the  pro- 
grammes,. The  bar  don’t  pay  so  much  any  more,  because  the  bar-keepers 
get  too  much  money. 

Q.  How  do  they  get  it?  A.  In  the  way  of  a salary. 

Q.  How  late  can  you  sell  drinks  now  in  Chicago?  A.  At  one  o’clock 
you  have  to  close. 

Q.  Are  drinks  sold  in  your  hall  after  one  o’clock?  A.  Well,  they 
have  had  such  a big  crowd  there  they  might  have  sold  a little  after  one 
o’clock;  I am  giving  you  the  truth  about  a few  of  our  meetings;  they  might 
have  run  a few  minutes  over,  or  they  might  have  had  a half  barrel  of  beer 
left  that  they  didn’t  want  to  throw  away;  why,  then  they  would  ask  the 
privilege  to  run  a little  bit  longer.  There  is  no  use  of  saying  they  shut 
down  at  one  o’clock,  because  such  things  have  occurred  when  they  would 
stay  half  an  hour  longer,  but  we  don’t  allow  it.  Our  time  is  twelve 
o’clock,  when  we  have  to  get  the  crowd  out,  and  that  gives  until  one 
o’clock  for  them  to  get  through. 

Q.  When  the  beer  is  not  all  sold,  do  we  understand  they  are  per- 
mitted to  sell  it  after  one  o’clock?  A.  They  may  give  them  fifteen  min- 
utes longer,  and  then  they  count  their  cash,  turn  the  lights  down  in  the 
hall,  and  they  have  got  to  go  into  the  bar-room  and  settle  on  the  money 
matters  between  them,  and  one  of  them  takes  the  money  home.  That  1 
don’t  know;  1 am  not  there;  but  I know  that  is  the  way  they  do. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  complaints  from  the  Police  Department?  A. 
I never  did. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN;  There  is  another  thing  I wish  to  report,  and  that 
is  that  after  the  saloon  is  closed  people  come  up  and  they  are  admitted. 
They  should  be  kept  out.  They  are  seen  to  go  in  without  charge. 

THE  WITNESS:  There  is  lots  of  things  that  take  place  once  in  a 
while.  I will  have  to  be  a little  more  strict  and  give  orders  to  stop  those 
things. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  will  promise  this  lady  that  you  will  look 
after  it  a little  closer,  and  3'ou  will  also  promise  her  that  if  anything  does 
occur  again  that  you  will  make  it  right  and  call  the  police  up?  A.  Yes,  1 
want  to  make  it  right. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Yondorf,  just  one  more  question:  Why  do  you  think 
girls  go  wrong?  A.  Bad  company,  and  lack  of  proper  education  on  the 
part  of  their  parents.  They  don’t  watch  them  close  enough,  that  is  why 
girls  go  wrong;  bad  surroundings,  poor  environments.  If  you  would  take 
care  of  your  daughters,  they  would  not  go  wrong.  Some  parents  are  so 
ignorant  that  they  don’t  know  what  the  surroundings  are;  they  see  their 
daughter  standing  on  the  corner  talking  with  some  young  fellow,  or  some 
of  them  possibly  off  the  curbstone  in  the  middle  of  the  street,  talking  with 
boys;  those  are  the  girls  that  go  wrong  eventually,  and  it  is  the  parents’ 
fault. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  think  the  chances  a lone  girl  has  in 


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cominpr  to  Chicago,  a girl  that  has  got  no  parents  and  no  home — what  do 
you  think  her  chances  are?  A.  It  depends  on  the  character  of  the  girl. 
If  the  girl  is  brought  up  right  at  home,  she  can  come  to  Chicago  and  be 
perfectly  safe.  She  would  be  perfectly  safe,  but  if  she  has  not  been 
brought  up  right  she  would  not  be  safe. 

Q.  Suppose  that  girl  is  hungry?  A.  If  a girl  is  hungry  in  Chicago 
she  can  go  into  any  place  of  business  and  get  something  to  eat. 

Q.  Are  you  interested  in  some  stores  outside  of  the  loop?  A.  I 
was  for  thirty-six  years.  I had  cash  girls  working  for  me  for  six  or 
seven,  years,  and  I never  paid  them  less  than  $10.00,  and  as  high  as  $12.00 
or  $13.00  a week.  It  is  the  girls  downtown,  in  these  big  stores  in  the 
loop,  that  get  the  poorest  pay. 

Q.  Your  store  was  the  Yondorf  Store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  At  the  corner  of  North  Avenue  and 
Larrabee  Street. 

Q.  You  were  the  head  of  that  store?  A.  I was  for  a long  time,  up 
to  five  years  ago.  My  brother,  Charles,  is  the  head  of  it  now. 

Q.  How  many  girls  did  you  employ  out  there?  A.  Two  cashiers. 

Q.  Just  two  women?  A.  Just  two  women,  two  girls;  one  started 
w4th  me  when  she  left  school,  and  she  stayed  with  me  seven  3-ears  and 
then  she  got  married.  We  paid  them  $7.00,  $8.00  and  $9.00;  and  when 
she  quit  she  was  getting  $13.00  a week;_  she  got  married.  All  the  girls 
that  I had  got  married;  they  all  got  married. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Is  there  a saloon  running  in  connection  with 
3'our  hall?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Now,  don’t  forget  the  promise  that  3-011  made 
those  ladies  over  there. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Yondorf. 

W^hereupon  the  further  hearing  was  adjourned  to  2:30  P.  M. 
of  this  same  day,  April  11,  1913. 


SESSION  XVI 


The  character  of  a downtown  hotel  is  assailed  by  the  testimony 
of  a former  employe.  Owner  of  a cafe  in  the  segregated  district 
declares  his  patrons  are  respectable  people.  Officers  of  the  Junior 
Juvenile  Protective  Association  submit  some  reports  on  dance 
halls.  Coroner  of  Cook  Coimty  gives  suicide  statistics.  Testi- 
mony of: 

George  Tollman,  ex-janitor  LaSalle  House; 

Robert  C.  Novak,  proprietor  Maxim’s  Cafe; 

Mrs.  Louise  Bowen,  president  Junior  Juvenile  Protective 
Association; 

Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain,  superintendent  Juvenile  Protec- 
tive Association; 

Mr.  Peter  Hoffman,  coroner  of  Cook  County. 

Chicago,  April  11,  1913,  2:00  P.  M. 
The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  the  La  Salle  Hotel, 
all  members  being  present,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had  : 

jeorge  Tollman’s  Testimony. 

GEORGE  TOLLMAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
t)eing  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
Follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  George  Toll- 
rnan. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Tollman?  A.  I have  been  working 
as  a janitor  and  houseman  in  a hotel. 

^ Q.  Are  you  working  at  any  hotel  now?  A.  I have  recently  quit, 
j Q.  What  place?  A.  The  LaSalle  House. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  171  LaSalle  Street. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  employed  there?  A.  A little  over  a month. 
Q.  What  sort  of  people  frequent  that  hotel?  A.  The  first  two 
floors  are  used  entirely  for  men  that  bring  women  up  there. 

Q.  Their  wives?  A.  No,  they  register  as  man  and  wife,  but  the 
[proprietor  generally  does  the  registering  himself.  Sometimes  they  register 
themselves. 

Q.  The  first  two  floors  are  employed  for  that  purpose;  now,  what 
are  the  other  floors  employed  for?  A.  Men  stop  there;  they  room 
there;  that  is  reserved  for  men. 

Q.  The  men  who  room  up  on  these  floors  above,  are  they  permitted 
to  take  women  up  there?  A.  No,  they  are  the  ones  that  room  there 
steady. 

; Q.  The  ones  that  room  there  steady  are  not  permitted  to  take  women 
there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  a man  to  enter  the  front  door  and  a 
woman  to  enter  the  back  door  and  meet  inside  without  being  seen?  A. 
'Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  back  part  opens  on  an  alley?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  back  of  the 
theatre. 

j Q.  It  is  back  of  what  theatre?  A.  The  back  entrance  of  the  theatre 
[goes  through  this  court.  It  is  the  first  theatre  down  from  Randolph  on 
LaSalle  Street.  I don’t  know  what  theatre  it  is. 


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Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  proprietor  of  the  LaSalle  House?  A. 
Bales. 

Q.  You  have  talked  with  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  in  any  way  intimated  to  you  that  he  knew  that  some 
of  the  men  and  women  coming  to  his  place,  the  transients,  were  not  man 
and  wife?  A.  Why,  it  was  a recognized  fact  they  weren’t. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  intimate  that  to  you  in  any  conversation?  A.  Why, 
the  only  way  he  mentioned  it  was  saying  that  reformers  wanted  to  ring 
in  and  ruin  everything. 

Q.  How  many  couples  a night  went  into  this  hotel?  A.  I should 
say  from  twenty-five  to  one  hundred  a night. 

Q.  What  are  these  couples  charged?  A.  In  this  hotel,  as  it  is  run 
on  a better  grade  than  most  places  of  that  nature,  they  charge  from  $2.00 
to  $5.00  for  a room. 

Q.  Paying  from  $2.00  to  $5.00  would  entitle  one  to  remain  how  long? 
A.  Two  dollars  only  a short  time,  but  you  can  go  in  for  all  night  for 
$5.00. 

Q.  That  is,  to  stay  a short  time  they  pay  $2.00?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  If  a couple  went  in  and  got  a room  and  paid  $2.00  they  would 
not  be  permitted  to  stay  all  night?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  throw  anybody  out  because  they  overstayed  the 
time?  A.  They  generally  knock  on  the  door  and  tell  them,  “Time  is  up.” 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  and  knock  on  any  door  and  tell  them,  “Time  is 

up?”  A.  They  have  girls  there  for  that  purpose. 

Q.  How  old  are  those  girls?  A.  One  of  them  is  a married  lady — 
well,  both  of  them  have  been  married. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  those  girls?  A.  One  of  them  is  C 

G ; she  has  been  employed  there  four  years. 

Q.  You  have  seen  her  go  there  and  knock  on  the  doors  and  tell 
them,  “Time  is  up?”  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  serve  meals  there?  A.  They  send  out  for  their  meals; 
send  over  to  the  Bismarck. 

Q.  Do  they  serve  drinks  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  they  get  drinks?  A.  They  send  out  for  them;  they 

keep  part  there,  I believe,  too. 

Q.  What  do  they  charge  for  a bottle  of  beer?  A.  I don’t  know,  I 
never  had  anything  to  do  with  that. 

Q.  You  never  had  anything  to  do  with  that?  A.  No,  they  try  to 
keep  all  such  things  away  from  the  employes  as  much  as  possible. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  hotel  been  running  in  this  manner?  A.  For 
sixteen  years. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  were  employed  there  was  the  hotel  ever 
closed  up?  A.  No,  but  there  was  a party  came  around  there  and  told 
them  they  were  liable  to  have  to  shut  up  before  long. 

Q.  Wlio  told  them  that?  A.  I don’t  know.  It  seemed  that  they 
got  some  warning  that  thej-^  would  probably  have  to  discontinue  for  a 
time,  anyhow.  I only  caught  this  from  parts  of  conversations  that  I 
overlieard.  They  were  nervous  for  a day  or  two,  but  it  seems  the3'  got 
some  assurance  then  that  they  could  go  on  again  as  usual. 

Q.  You  have  seen  some  girls  come  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  girls  come  there  with  different  fellows?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  but  I have  seen  more  men  bring  in  different  girls. 

Q.  You  had  more  often  seen  a man  bring  in  different  girls  than  you 
had  seen  a girl  come  in  with  different  fellows?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  any  of  these  girls?  A.  No,  never  talked 
around;  the  place  is  very  quiet,  and  the^-  are  very  particular  in  that  way; 
he  is  very  particular  about  the  help  there,  especially  me.  I don’t  know,  I 
suppose  he  thought  I wanted  to  learn  too  much  there,  anyhow.  I know 
once;  there  is  a pantry  right  at  the  head  of  the  steps,  and  I was  in  the 
pantry,  and  I just  started  to  go  out  to  go  upstairs,  and  there  was  a girl 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


445 


that  come  out  of  one  of  the  rooms  and  came  out  downstairs,  and  he  got 
in  front  of  me  and  said,  “Get  back,  wait  a minute;”  he  didn’t  want  me  to 
see  the  girl. 

Q.  Now,  on  that  point;  it  was  possible  for  the  girl  to  come  in  there 

without  being  seen  by  anybody?  A.  Yes,  sir;  a girl  can  come  in  and 

go  on  to  the  room,  and  a man  can  come  up  later. 

Q.  She  does  not  have  to  pass  by  the  clerk?  A.  No,  the  man  can 

come  up  and  register  for  her,  or  else  the  girl  can  go  to  a room  and 
collect  the  money,  and  then  the  boss  can  register  them  himself. 

( Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  the  girls  bringing  men  up  there  got 
[la  percentage  of  the  room  rent?  A.  No,  they  didn’t  get  nothing. 

! Q.  Do  you  know  if  this  hotel  employs  girls  to  go  out  and  bring  men 
lup  to  that  hotel?  A.  No,  I don’t  believe  so. 

Q.  It  is  a place  easy  of  access  and  provides  protection  for  the  girl? 
|A.  I think  the  hotel  is  run  mostly  for  that  class  of  wealthy  men  that 
[wants  to  go  out  and  pick  up  girls;  that  is,  young  girls. 

I Q.  Are  the  rooms  nicely  furnished?  A.  Nicely  furnished,  all  silk 
curtains,  art  pictures  in  the  rooms;  the  beds  are  fine  beds;  they  are  what 
:is  to  be  found  in  a $4.00  or  $5.00  or  $6.00  a day  hotel. 

Q.  That  is,  the  hotel  caters  especially  to  men  with  money?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  It  has  up  to  100  patrons  a night?  A.  I would  say  from  twenty- 
five  up;  of  course,  there  is  nights  when  business  is  dull,  nights  when 
business  is  not  so  good. 

Q.  What  were  your  duties  at  the  hotel?  A.  1 was  houseman  and 
kept  the  hall  clean  and  swept  two  of  the  rooms  every  morning  and  kept  up 
the  heat.  They  are  very  particular  about  keeping  everything  clean;  every- 
thing is  kept  in  the  very  best  of  shape  so  far  as  cleanliness  is  concerned. 

Q.  You  have  seen  some  of  the  girls  that  go  into  that  place?  A. 
Oh,  yes;  I have  seen  them.  I would  be  working  in  the  halls. 

Q.  How  young  were  some  of  these  girls,  in  your  judgment?  A. 
Well,  they  were  girls  from  fifteen  years  old,  as  young  as  fifteen. 

Q.  As  young  as  fifteen?  A.  Yes,  sir;  as  young  as  fifteen. 

Q.  Of  your  own  knowledge,  can  you  state  whether  compulsion  was 
ever  used  by  the  men  escorting  these  girls?  A.  I saw  one  girl;  no,  she 
I was  not  protesting;  but  I was  standing  out  on  the  sidewalk  and  a man 
went  ahead  of  the  girl;  he  walked  about  ten  or  fifteen  feet  ahead  of  her; 
the  girl  seemed  to  stop,  you  know,  and  kind  of  hesitate  and  then  go  on, 
and  then  when  she  stopped  he  stopped  and  went  back  to  her.  She  seemed 
I to  me  like  she  was  just  dragging  herself  along.  She  didn’t  want  to  go, 
"but  there  was  something  compelling  her  to  go  on. 

^ Q.  Was  this  during  the  day  or  night?  A.  This  was  some  time 
during  the  day;  they  go  in  there  during  the  day  or  night.  Several  times 
during  my  work  I would  hear  girls  cry  in  the  rooms. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  any  girl  cry  out  for  help?  A.  No,  I never 
heard  them  cry  out  for  help,  although  I have  heard  them  cry.  All  of 
the  windows  have  inside  shutters  that  are  closed  and  kept  locked.  Of 
course,  if  a girl  was  to  put  up  a fight  or  anything,  she  would  not  have 
such  a good  chance  of  being  seen  from  the  street. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  a girl  to  be  lured  into  one  of  those 
places  and  to  be  ruined  against  her  will?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  that  ever  happened?  A.  Not  in  that  particular 
place;  I couldn’t  swear. 

Q.  In  that  particular  type  of  hotel?  A.  Yes,  I believe  it  has 
happened. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  specific  instance?  A.  Yes,  in  hotels  of 
this  character,  of  which  there  are  lots  of  them  downtown,  most  of  them 
have  fire  escapes  on  the  outside  that  lift  down  like  a stairway  to  the 
ground. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  It  can  be  let  down  or  held  up  with  a weight  It 
would  be  an  easy  matter  for  a girl  to  be  caught  in  a cafe  and  got  drunk 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


and  drugged  and  put  into  a taxicab,  and  it  would  be  an  easy  matter  to 
drive  up  the  alley  to  this  fire  escape  that  can  be  let  down,  and  carried  up 
the  fire  escape  into  a room  through  a window. 

Q.  Has  that  ever  happened?  A.  I have  noticed  the  fire  escape 
down  three  times,  I believe. 

Q.  At  this  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  noticed  the  fire  escape  down?  A.  Yes,  sir;  when 
there  was  snow  on  the  ground;  there  were  tracks;  you  could  see  tracks 
that  went  up  to  the  fire  escape. 

Q.  What  other  hotels  have  you  worked  at?  A.  The  hotels  I worked 
at  before  were  not  in  Chicago;  I have  been  out  on  the  Coast,  at  Frisco, 
Seattle  and  Portland. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  Chicago?  A.  About  two  months,  I 
guess. 

Q.  Why  did  you  leave  your  position  at  this  hotel?  A.  I didn’t 

like  to  work  in  that  kind  of  a place,  although  I had  worked  in  a great 

many  of  those  places,  although  I tried  to  get  some  place  better  if  I 
could. 

Q.  Are  you  a married  man?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-nine. 

Q.  Why  are  you  appearing  before  this  Committee  today?  A.  I am 
interested.  You  see,  I never  had  a home,  and  besides,  I have  been  in  the 
labor  movement.  I have  studied  these  things  pretty  thoroughlj'. 

Q.  You  never  had  a home  of  your  own?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  have  knocked  around  the  world?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  girls  ever  go  wrong  because  they  are  not  paid 
enough  money  to  live  upon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  case  of  that  sort?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I can  tell 
you  of  a case  that  happened  when  I was  fourteen  years  old.  I was  work- 
ing on  a lunch  wagon  in  Kansas  City.  There  used  to  be  a girl  that 
worked  in  a laundry,  and  they  paid  her  $5.00  a week;  she  used  to  come 
up  there  to  buy  lunches.  She  could  buy  a lunch  there  cheap.  The  work 
was  very  hard  for  her,  it  seemed;  we  got  intimately  acquainted  with 
each  .other.  So  she  told  me  that  she  was  not  feeling  well,  and.  she  begun 
to  get  sick.  So  finally  she  didn’t  show  up  to  get  her  lunch.  The  next 
day  I went  to  see  what  was  the  matter  with  her.  I went  at  6 o’clock  at 
night  and  2 o’clock  in  the  morning.  The  next  day  I went  to  her  room  to 
see  her  and  found  her  sick  in  bed.  So  I went  then  and  called  up  a 
charitable  organization  or  two  and  told  them  about  it.  They  promised 
to  send  somebody,  but  for  some  reason  they  didn’t  send  anyone.  I 
was  only  getting  $5.00  a week  myself.  I got  a doctor,  paid  the  room 
rent  and  bought  every  day  w'hat  wms  necessary,  but  she  got  worse.  The 
result  was  I gave  up  my  room,  as  I had  to  stay  there  most  of  the  time.  I 
slept  in  a chair  while  she  was  sick.  Afterwards,  after  she  got  up,  she  was 
not  able  to  go  to  w^ork,  whjr,  then  I didn’t  think  that  I should  stay  in  her 
room  any  longer.  I didn’t  want  to  nay  room  rent  any  more,  so  I went 
down  to  sleep  in  box  cars  down  on  the  river. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Then  I don’t  know,  I guess  I must  have  got  a cold 
and  fever,  but  somehow  I got  sick  and  wmnt  to  a hospital,  and  I guess  I 
was  there  about  a month.  I tried  to  tell  them  about  the  girl,  but  they 
seemed  to  think  I didn’t  know  what  I was  talking  about:  after  that,  after 
I got  out  of  the  hospital  I got  to  work  there  and  started  to  hunt  for  the 
girl,  and  I couldn’t  find  her.  One  day,  finally,  I met  her  on  the  street. 
As  soon  as  I met  her,  of  course,  I knew  she  was  down  below;  I could  see 
that  on  her  face. 

Q.  Down  below'?  You  mean  the  pit?  A.  Yes.  As  soon  as  she 
saw  me  she  began  to  cry.  I asked  her  where  she  lived.  She  said  she 
had  just  got  aw'ay  from  the  place  w'here  she  w as  at  a short  time,  and  told 
me  where  she  was  rooming.  The  next  day  1 saw'  her  and  she  told  me  how 
she  came  to  be  dow’n  there. 

O.  What  did  she  tell  you?  A.  She  said  after  she  had  got  out  of 
doors,  I mean  after  she  got  so  that  she  could  get  around  a little:  why, 
she  went  out  to  look  for  work  again,  and  there  was  not  anj'  supply  of 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


44? 


:ood  or  anything  for  her,  and  she  didn’t  have  any  money,  and  she  simply 
got  hungrier  and  hungrier  all  the  time  walking  the  streets.  She  said  one 
lay  she  was  so  hungry  she  supposed  she  was  staggering  along  the  streets, 
ind  an  officer  told  her  she  was  drunk,  she  was  to  go  on,  or  he  would  run 
lier  in.  She  went  on  a piece  further  when  some  man  came  up  to  her  and 
says,  “You  are  drunk;  better  let  me  take  you  to  a room;  you  will  get 
pinched  here.”  She  told  him  she  wasn’t  drunk;  she  was  hungry.  He 
says,  “If  that  is  the  way,  come  on  and  I’ll  see  that  you  get  something  to 
eat.”  She  didn’t  know  where  he  was  taking  her  to;  she  didn’t  care  very 
much  where  he  was  taking  her.  They  went  to  a house.  Of  course,  as 
soon  as  she  got  into  the  house  she  seen  where  she  was.  She  was  taken 
to  a room,  her  clothes  were  taken  away  from  her,  and  they  gave  her  a 
glass  of  milk.  After  that  they  told  her  that  she  would  either  have  to 
submit  to  the  house  or  else  she  would  not  get  anything  more  to  eat. 

Q.  And  she  submitted?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I wanted  to  find  out  who  it 
was,  I intended  to  find  out  the  house  and  who  the  man  was.  I came  to 
find  out  next  morning,  but  I didn’t  do  that;  the  next  morning  when  I 
called  on  her  she  had  committed  suicide. 

Q.  You  believed  her  story;  you  think  she  told  you  the  truth?  A. 
Yes,  I am  sure. 

Q.  Have  you  known  of  any  other  girls  that  committed  suicide  be- 
•cause  there  was  no  other  way  of  escape  from  dishonor  or  disgrace?  A. 
I don’t  think  they  have  a chance  to  commit  suicide  until  afterwards,  as  a 
rule. 

Q.  Do  they  commit  suicide  afterwards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  most  you  ever  made  in  your  life;  what  is  the  best 
Job  you  ever  had?  A.  The  best  wages  I ever  made  was,  of  course,  out 
West,  out  in  the  mining  camps,  attending  an  electric  light. 

Q.  What  did  you  make?  A.  Three  and  a quarter  a day;  that  didn’t 
last  very  long. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  over  at  this  hotel  in  Chicago?  A.  Six  dollars 
,a  week  at  first,  and  then  when  I was  going  to  quit  he  raised  it  to  $33.00  a 
month. 

Q.  Including  room  and  board?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  not  well  support  a wife  and  family  on  that,  could  you? 
A.  No,  sir. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  were  the  majority  of  these  girls  that 
were  brought  into  this  house,  were  they  young  or  old?  A.  Ranging 
from  the  age  of  fifteen  to  thirty. 

Q.  What  was  the  majority  of  them,  young  or  old?  A.  The  majority 
was  young,  fifteen  to  sixteen  or  seventeen.  Most  of  them  were  young 

girls. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  names  of  the  men  who  brought  those  girls 
there?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  say  you  supposed  they  were  rich  men?  A.  The  working- 
men could  not  very  well  pay  $5.00  for  a room  or  $4.00  for  a meal. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  employed  before  at  a hotel  of  this  class  in 
Chicago?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  any  talk  about  other  hotels  of  this  class  in 
Chicago?  A.  No,  I haven’t,  but  there  are  plenty  of  them  here.  I would 
like  to  tell  you  something  about  an  employment  agency. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  employment  agencies?  A.  You  know 
there  was  testimony  given  here  that  domestics,  girls  employed  as 
domestics,  many  times  go  wrong.  Employment  agents  charge  from  $3.00 
to  $10.00  for  a job.  Now,  you  take  girls  coming  from  foreign  countries, 
they  call  them  “Greenies.”  These  people  call  up  for  servants,  and  they 
generally  want  a “Greeny,”  because  all  they  know  is  to  work.  She  can’t 
speak  the  English  language.  So  the  “Greeny”  is  sent  out.  That  is  why 
they  apply  for  them. 


448 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Who  applies  for  them,  hotels  of  this  type?  A.  Hotels  and  private 
families.  There  is  a lot  of  them  that  wants  her.  They  want  some  girl  to 
work  all  over;  there  is  lots  of  dirty  work,  and  they  generally  get  a 
“Greeny”  for  that,  because  she  will  work  cheaper  and  longer.  Now,  these 
“Greenies,”  if  they  have  not  got  very  much  money,  they  have  got  to  pay 
$3.00  for  a job,  a job  that  only  pays  $10.00  or  $15.00  a month,  or  sometimes 
less. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Well,  she  can’t  quit  that  job  very  well.  If  she  quits 
that  job,  why,  then  she  has  got  to  pay  $3.00  more  for  another  one;  that 
would  be  $6.00,  besides  it  costs  something,  if  she  has  baggage,  to  move 
her  baggage  back  and  forth.  Well,  there  is  lots  of  them,  there  is  no 
getting  around  it,  there  is  lots  of  wealthy  young  inen  around  wealthy 
homes  that  seem  to  think  that  it  is  their  right  and  privilege  to  ruin  these 
girls  to  a large  extent. 

Q.  How  do  you  know?  A.  1 worked  around  some  of  them  myself. 

Q.  Worked  around  some  of  these  homes?  A.  Yes,  sir;  when  I was 
a boy.  I had  seen  them  come  around  and  insult  the  girls,  put  hands  on 
them,  and  so  forth;  then  1 had  the  girls  tell  me  their  experiences  and  how 
they  were  used. 

Q.  By  the  sons  of  the  families?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  would  you  stop  that  sort  of  thing?  A.  Cut  out  the  employ- 
ment agency. 

Q.  How  would  that  stop  the  young  man  from  those  practices?  A. 
Well,  if  the  girl  wouldn’t  have  to  pay  for  the  job.  she  could  quit.  She 
could  be  more  independent,  and  she  could  get  a job,  otherwise  she  can’t 
get  it  now;  she  knows  that  if  she  quits  she  has  not  any  money  to  pay  for 
another  job. 

Q.  The  girl  has  to  pay  $3.00  for  every  job  she  gets?  A job  that 
does  not  pay  very  much,  and  the  young  fellow  comes  around  and  insults 
her,  and  she  figures  that  she  has  to  pay  $3.00  for  another  job,  and  she  has 
not  got  the  $3.00  to  pay,  so  she  doesn’t  resent  the  insult,  and  sometimes 
she  submits — is  that  what  you  want  this  Committee  to  understand?  A. 
Y es. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  experience  with  emplo3’ment  agencies? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  get  jobs  for  some  people  who  would  not  otherwise  get 
them?  A.  No,  I do  not  think  so. 

Q.  You  think  that  they  are  a harm  without  anj^  merit  at  all?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  without  any  merit.  The  only  merit  is  that  the  city  sometimes 
raises  the  licenses  on  them;  they  do  that  to  get  a heavier  license,  to  help 
pay  the  expenses  of  the  city. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Let  me  tell  you,  a young  woman  wrote  in  to 
the  Committee  and  said  that  she  went  to  an  emplojment  agency,  and 
the  employment  agency  sent  her  with  sixteen  other  girls  to  New  Orleans; 
they  got  down  there  and  found  out  they  were  sent  into  the  district  down 
there;  this  girl  escaped  by  throwing  a kerosene  lantern,  or  something 
of  that  sort,  and  at  the  time  of  writing  this  letter  she  was  in  Cleveland, 
O.,  and  was  all  right,  and  gave  references,  and  so  forth;  do  you  know  of 
any  girls  who  are  treated  that  way,  who  went  to  employment  agencies 
and  were  sent  out  to  some  other  town,  to  the  red  light  district,  or  to  a 
house  of  questionable  nature? 

THE  WITNESS:  There  was  one  girl  that  told  me  that  she  went  to 
an  employment  agent  and  applied  for  work,  and  that  there  was  a young 
man,  he  was  not  so  young,  about  thirty  years  old,  claiming  he  knew  a 
married  young  man  who  wanted  a hired  girl,  and  it  was  a very  easy  job. 
She  said  she  went  with  him,  hired  by  him  to  work  in  his  family.  Then 
they  went  out  to  a nice  house  out  in  the  residence  district.  When  she  was 
taken  in  there  she  was  ruined,  and  then  later  she  was  taken  out  of  there 
and  taken  to  the  red  light  district. 

Robert  C.  Novak’s  Testimony. 

ROBERT  C.  NOVAK,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  a^ 
follows: 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


449 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Robert  C.  Novak. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I have  got  a cafe  down  on  Twenty- 
first  and  Wabash. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  it?  A.  Maxim’s  Cafe. 

Q.  Are  you  the  owner?  A.  Only  the  manager. 

Q.  How  late  do  you  sell  intoxicants  there,  Mr.  Novak?  A.  One 
A.  M.  We  serve  nothing  but  soft  drinks  after  1 o’clock;  that  is,  such  as 
ginger  ale  and  soda  water;  that  is  all.  There  is  people  coming  in  at  all 
hours  in  the  night;  in  fact,  we  serve  meals  at  all  hours  of  the  night,  see? 
People  come  in  and  eat  and  drink;  we  never  bar  anybody  from  coming 
in,  or  tell  them  to  go  out. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  serve  drinks  there  after  1 o’clock?  A.  We  didn’t, 
no  intoxicating  liquors;  we  do  soft  drinks. 

Q.  You  declare  to  these  gentlemen  under  oath  that  you  never  have 
sold  intoxicating  drinks  there  after  1 o’clock  in  the  morning?  A.  That 
is  right. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  business  there?  A.  Just  one  year 
now. 

Q.  What  kind  of  people  patronize  your  place,  Mr.  Novak?  A.  Why, 
what  you  call  slummers,  people  traveling  all  over  town  taking  in  the 
sights. 

Q.  The  society  people  go  down  there,  too?  A.  Oh,  yes. 

Q.  People  of  wealth  and  position?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Go  down  there  with  their  wives?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  daughters?  A.  I don’t  know  about  their  daughters;  I don’t 
know  whether  their  wives,  I couldn’t  swear  to  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a man  by  the  name  of  Lazarus?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Izzy  Lazarus?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  He  is  connected  with  the  place,  but  he  is 
not  in  town;  he  is  a silent  partner. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  place  does  he  own,  50  per  cent  or  more?  A. 
Oh,  no;  he  don’t  own  any  more  than  I do.  It  is  fifty  and  fifty,  you  know. 

Q.  Have  you  any  hotel  in  connection  with  “Maxim’s?”  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  professional  prostitutes  hang  around?  A.  Not 
to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Any  girls  that  are  commercially  immoral?  A.  No,  sir;  not  to 
my  knowledge. 

Q.  There  are  no  so-called  “solicitors”  in  your  place?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  merely  have  a restaurant  like  any  other  restaurant?  A. 
That  is  all. 

Q.  You  cater  to  slumming  parties  and  to  some  of  the  men  and 
women  who  are  there  frequently  or  who  live  in  the  district  in  which  your 
restaurant  is  located?  A.  No,  we  cater  to  the  public;  we  have  people  go 
there  that  never  was  there  before;  different  people  come  every  night  pretty 
near;  in  fact,  I don’t  believe  I would  know  ten  people  that  come  in  the 
place. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Novak,  as  a matter  of  fact,  aren’t  50  per  cent  of  the 
regular  patrons  of  your  place  woman  patrons,  I mean  professionals?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  25  per  cent  of  them  professionals?  A.  No,  I would  not  say 
they  are,  because  they  are  not. 

Q.  We  are  not  here  to  persecute  you  or  to  prosecute  you;  we  want 
to  get  down  to  facts.  A.  I understand. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  only  been  open  a year?  A.  Yes.  Before  that 
the  place  was  closed  for  some  time. 

Q.  You  came  in  after  it  was  reopened?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Since  that  time  the  place  has  been  respectable?  A.  Oh,  yes,  yes. 


450  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  No  woman  would  see  anything  there  to  cause  her  to  blush?  A. 
No,  I don’t  think  you  would. 

Q.  She  could  look  over  the  table  next  to  her  and  see  some  woman 
soliciting  a man?  A.  No;  to  tell  the  truth,  we  had  about  three  women 
come  in  to  take  a drink  once  in  a while,  and  that  is  all. 

Q.  Come  in  with  escorts?  A.  Come  in  with  men,  yes. 

Q.  You  don’t  permit  any  women  to  go  into  that  place  unescorted? 
A.  No,  sir;  we  have  instructed  our  doorman  to  that  effect,  to  keep  women 
who  come  without  an  escort  out;  we  won’t  let  a woman  in  without  an 
escort. 

Q.  Our  investigator  tells  me  that  the  day  he  subpoenaed  you  there 
were  half  a dozen  women  at  tables  unescorted;  how  did  they  get  in?  A. 
There  was  no  half  a dozen  woinen  come  in  and  sat  around  these  tables 
alone,  I am  sure.  I am  not  sitting  here  and  trying  to  tell  a lie  or  any- 
thing. 

Q.  If  a fight  started  in  your  place  and  you  wanted  protection,  what 
do  you  do?  A.  We  have  got  a doorman  there,  and  he  would  go  out  and 
get  a policeman.  There  is  a policeman  around  the  corner  all  the  time; 
it  is  just  a little  ways  from  the  corner. 

Q.  Suppose  a policeman  does  you  a service,  as  stopping  a fight  or  a 
disturbance,  so  that  your  place  can  go  along  as  a decent  place,  do  you 
consider  him  entitled  to  a gratuity?  A.  Why,  we  never  gave  nothing  to 
no  policeman. 

Q.  I mean  as  a gratuity;  for  instance,  in  the  way  of  a tip  to  a porter 
who  brushes  you  off,  or  hands_  you  your  hat,  or  to  the  waiter  who  serves 
you;  do  you  remember  the  policeman  in  that  way?  A.  I never  give  any- 
thing to  anybody. 

Q.  You  never  gave  any  gratuity  to  any  policeman?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  business  down  there?  A.  Just  a 
year. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  before  that?  A.  I was  tending  bar  before  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  such  things  as  police  protection?  A.  Oh, 
yes;  I have  heard  of  them  things. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  they  ever  existed?  A.  I could  not  sa}-;  I 
could  not  swear  to  that. 

EXAMINATION  BY"  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  are  a young  kid  of  a fellow  and  I am  an 
old  one.  Can  you  tell  me  the  meaning  of  the  word  slumming?  A.  Why, 
pretty  near. 

Q.  What  is  the  meaning  of  the  word  slumming?  A.  V’hy,  where 
a party  gets  together  to  take  in  the  different  cafes. 

Q.  Low  places,  isn’t  it;  vulgar,  bad  places?  A.  Why,  no,  not 
necessarily. 

Q.  They  wouldn’t  come  to  the  LaSalle  Hotel  to  slum,  would  they? 
A.  People  can  go  and  slum  at  the  North  American  and  the  State’s,  or 
the  Congress,  and  places  like  that. 

Q.  Do  they  ever  come  to  your  place  to  slum;  now,  young  man,  be 
careful:  would  they  come  to  your  place  to  slum  if  there  wasn’t  an3Thing 
to  see  there?  A.  They  would  hear  some  entertaining. 

Q.  That’s  not  my  question.  Answer  my  question:  don’t  3'ou  have 
women  come  to  your  place  and  w^ait  for  men  to  come  in;  no,  be  careful;  I 
have  been  in  your  place.  I was  out  pretty  nearly  all  one  night  with  two 
policemen,  and  I have  been  in  your  place;  don’t  3mu  have  women  come  in 
there?  A.  We  have  women  come  in  there. 

Q.  Just  answer  my  question  direct:  don’t  y'ou  have  women  come  in 
and  sit  around  and  pick  up  men?  A.  I don’t  know  if  they  pick  up  men. 

Q.  What  do  they  pick  up  men  there  for?  A.  To  take  a drink  and 
listen  to  the  entertaining;  that’s  all  I could  see. 

Q.  Who  entertains  them  in  ’-our  place  there;  the3’  are  soliciting  in 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


451 


there,  and  you  don’t  know  that  they  are  in  there,  either?  A.  Well,  I 
didn’t  see  it. 

Q.  I know,  but  you  are  running  the  house.  What  do  you  have  a 
doorman  there  for?  A.  To  open  up  the  doors  and  help  people  to  cabs. 

Q.  What  people  do  you  help  to  cabs,  slummers  do  you  mean?  A.  I 
don’t  know  whether  you  call  them  slummers  or  not. 

Q.  Young  man,  come  out  and  tell  us;  I have  been  .out  there  myself 
and  I am  positive;  now,  come  on  and  tell  what  you  have  got  there;  what 
is  the  use  of  denying  it;  you  have  got  a place  there  where  men  meet 
women  and  women  meet  men;  there  is  where  the  business  is  started 
right  there.  Then  these  very  men  take  them  over  to  cheap  hotels  in  the 
neighborhood,  isn’t  that  true?  A.  There  is  people  that  come  there  in 
these  machines. 

Q.  Who?  A.  These  business  people. 

Q.  Do  any  business  men  of  standing  come  down  there  to  your  place? 
A.  I don’t  know  where  they  come  from. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  there  is  any  business  men  of  standing  who 
comes  down  to  your  place?  A.  Yes;  they  come  down  to  see  the  enter- 
tainment. 

Q.  I will  ask  you  again:  don’t  women  come  into  your  place  and  sit 
around  and  watch  to  catch  men;  if  so,  I want  to  know;  I was  there;  now, 
tell  us,  yes  or  no.  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Don’t  you  see  women  coming  there  alone?  A.  I don’t  see 
women  coming  alone. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a woman  come  in  there  alone?  Answer  that 
question.  A.  Alone? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I have  two  or  three  times. 

Q.  And  you  saw  them  go  out  with  men?  A.  No,  I generally  see  a 
woman  go  out  alone  if  she  comes  in  alone;  if  she  comes  in  alone  she 
would  go  out  alone. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  are  a wise  man. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where  is  Lazarus?  A.  He  is  not  in  town. 

Q.  When  is  he  going  to  be  in  town?  A.  I expect  him  about  Mon- 
day. 

. SENATOR  TOSSEY : What  kind  of  an  entertainment  do  you  have 
i at  your  place?  A.  Colored. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  do  these  entertainers  do?  A.  Just 

i sing. 

Q.  Do  they  ever  dance?  A.  Yes,  the  harem  dance,  the  same  as 
elsewhere. 

Q.  _ What  do  you  call  the  harem  dance?  A.  I don’t  know,  it  is 
something — just  come  up  and  you  will  see. 

ii  Q.  It’s  a muscle  dance,  isn’t  it?  A.  Yes — no,  I would  not  say  it  is 
f a muscle  dance;  I don’t  know  what  a muscle  dance  is. 

I _ SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  consider  that  kind  of  a dance  or  enter- 
t tainment  all  right,  do  you;  elevating?  A.  No,  I guess  it  is  not  elevating. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  It  is  only  suggestive,  that  is  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Suppose  they  took  away  your  bar  permit, 
could  you  exist?  A.  No,  I do  not  think  so. 

Q.  It  would  bust  you?  A.  I should  say  it  would. 

Q.  They  have  some  political  campaigns  once  in  a while  in  the  City 
of  Chicago,  don’t  they?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  come  around  and  ask  you  to  contribute?  A.  No; 
never. 

Q.  You  never  contributed  to  the  campaign  fund  of  any  party''  A 
No,  sir;  I didn’t  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  contribute  to  the  campaign  fund  of  any  party?  A. 
No,  sir;  I didn’t  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  instruct  anybody  how  to  vote?  A.  No,  sir;  I never 

did. 


452  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  never  took  any  interest  in  politics?  A.  Xo,  just  cast  my 
vote  is  all  I ever  had  to  do  with  politics. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  any  money  for  protection?  A.  Xo,  sir;  I 
never  did. 

Q.  _ Did  you  ever  hear  any  man  say  that  he  had  ever  given  money  for 
protection?  A.  Xo,  I never  did. 

Q.  You  still  want  this  Committee  to  believe  that  you  have  only  re- 
spectable women  patronizing  your  place?  A.  That  is  all  I know  that  is 
patronizing  the  place. 

Q.  Yet  you  think  that  if  your  bar  permit  were  revoked,  your  busi- 
ness would  go  to  smash  right  away?  A.  Well,  we  don’t  feed  enough 
people  in  the  place  to  keep  up  the  business,  you  know;  it  is  the  bar  that 
keeps  up  the  business. 

Q.  In  other  words,  your  place  is  practically  a saloon  where  both  men 
and  women  get  drinks?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  practically  what  it  is?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  was  not  there  the  night  I was 
there;  you  know  the  kind  of  place  you  got  there  just  as  well  as  I do; 
you  know  it  is  a meeting  place  there  for  men  and  women,  coming  and 
going  both  ways;  there  are  girls  in  short  dresses  in  there,  and  you  know 
it  to  be  the  fact;  you  know  I am  telling  the  truth;  you  know  that  jmu  are 
around  that  place,  and  you  see  those  people  come  in  there;  you  see  those 
girls  come  in  all  alone,  and  you  see  girls  go  out  with  men  and  go  to  these 
cheap  hotels,  and  you  know  it  as  well  as  I do,  because  I had  a chance  to 
see  it  myself. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I will  say  this  to  you,  Mr.  Novak,  that  you 
would  make  a good  deal  better  witness  for  yourself  if  you  would  come 
out  and  admit  these  things,  that  every  reporter  here  knows  to  be  true, 
and  every  member  of  this  Committee  knows  to  be  true,  and  then  discuss 
frankly  as  to  how  we  can  remedy  these  conditions. 

Q.  Lazarus  has  been  there  longer  than  a year?  A.  X'ot  this  last 
time;  no,  sir.  The  place  has  not  been  open  over  a year. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  say  that  Lazarus  was  connected  with 
it  when  it  was  closed  uo  before?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  It  was  closed  up  by  the  city?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Because  of  some  disorderly  conduct?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  why  he  is  now  a silent  partner,  isn’t  it?  A.  Well,  I 
guess  so. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  It  is  rather  strange  that  they  would  close  up 
a nice  respectable  resort  like  that! 

THE  WITNESS:  I -was  not  around  when  this  occurred.  I -was  not 
here. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  At  the  time  the  place  was  closed,  the  bar 
license  was  held  by  Lazarus?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  the  bar  license  revoked?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  whose  name  is  the  bar  license  held  now?  A.  In  mine. 

Q.  Lazarus  got  into  trouble?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  they  closed  the  place  up.  Now,  since  the  place  has  been 
open,  the  bar  license  is  held  in  your  name,  Lazarus  being  a silent  partner? 
A.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Louise  Bowmen’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  LOUISE  BOWEN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name,  please?  A.  Louise 
Bowen. 

Q.  You  are  interested  in  welfare  work?  A,  I am  president  of  the 
Junior  Juvenile  Protective  Association. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


453 


Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  dance  halls,  in  general?  A.  I think  they 
are,  some  of  them,  bad  places  for  young  people,  especially  where  liquor  is 
sold,  especially  in  the  majority  of  halls. 

Q.  In  the  majority  of  halls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  how  many  halls  in  the  city  do  they  sell  liquor  at  dances?  A. 
In  240  out  of  328  halls  they  sell  liquor.  We  made  our  first  investigation  two 
years  ago,  another  one  last  winter  and  another  one  this  winter. 

Q.  Has  this  condition  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the  city  officials 
or  police  department?  A.  It  has. 

Q.  What  was  done  about  it?  A.  I have  been  myself  to  the  Mayor 
in  regard  to  it.  He  took  great  interest  in  it.  I took  some  of  these  little 
books  and  laid  them  before  him.  He  said  he  would  see  what  could  be  done. 
But  I don’t  know,  I don’t  think  very  much  has  been  done.  I think  that 
the  dance  halls  are  better  this  winter  than  last  year,  but  a large  number 
are  especially  bad  in  which  they  sell  liquor. 

Q.  Have  your  investigators  made  an  estimate  as  to  the  number  of 
girls  who  are  annually  ruined  in  the  city  of  Chicago  through  the  influence 
of  dance  halls?  A.  No,  I have  no  such  figures.  I have  seen  a great  many 
girls  who  come  into  the  Juvenile  Protective  Association;  we  have  got  many 
cases  on  record. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  make  a conservative  estimate  what  would  you  say 
as  to  the  number  of  girls  annually  ruined  in  the  city  of  Chicago  through 
the  influence  of  vicious  dance  hlals?  A.  It  would  only  be  a guess.  I 
know  there  are  a great  many,  because  when  you  get  a great  number  of 
young  people  together  where  liquors  are  sold,  where  we  have  such  im- 
mense crowds,  and  boys  and  girls  are  drinking,  they  are  bound  to  go  wrong. 
I should  think  that  a great  deal  is  due  to  that  special  bar  permit.  This 
special  bar  permit  allows  the  sale  of  liquors  from  3 in  the  afternoon  to 
3 o’clock  in  the  morning,  while  saloons  are  obliged  to  close  at  1 o’clock, 
and  at  that  time  the  disreputable  element  come  out  of  the  saloons  and  go 
to  the  dance  halls,  and  it  us  usually  between  the  hours  of  1 and  3 that  so 
many  terrible  things  occur. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a special  permit?  A.  Where  a number  of  men 
and  women  wish  to  get  together  and  hold  a party  they  give  themselves  a 
name,  they  call  themselves  “The  Jolly  Owls,”  or  something  like  that,  and 
they  go  down  to  the  Mayor’s  office  and  get  a special  permit  to  sell  liquor, 
for  which  they  pay  $6.00. 

Q.  For  a permit  to  sell  liquor?  A.  Yes,  they  are  allowed  to  have  a 
special  permit  for  $6.00  to  sell  liquor  during  the  night  from  3 o’clock  in  the 
afternoon  until  3 o’clock  in  the  morning.  We  have  made  an  investigation 
of  a number  of  these  so-called  organizations,  as  to  the  number  of  bar  per- 
mits that  have  been  taken  out  by  them,  and  we  find  that  one  association 
in  one  year  had  taken  out  thirty-two  special  bar  permits. 

Q.  They  are  permitted  by  law  to  take  out  how  many?  A.  Six  per 
year. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  report  tliat  violation  of  the  law  or  the  city  ordinances 
to  the  proper  officials?  A.  I have. 

Q.  How  long  ago?  A.  I should  think  about  a year  ago. 

Q.  What  action  was  taken?  A.  I think  that  the  Mayor  gave  orders, 
if  I remember  correctly,  that  they  would  take  greater  pains  in  investigating 
the  associations  that  apply  for  these  special  bar  permits.  Sometime  ago  a 
little  girl,  perhaps  only  three  weeks  ago,  came  into  our  office  and  asked 
advice  about  taking  out  a bar  permit  and  giving  a party.  She  wanted  to 
take  out  a permit  to  sell  liquor  in  order  to  get  to  New  York.  She  wanted 
to  get  a permit  to  sell  liquor  in  connection  with  that  party  in  order  that 
she  might  make  enough  money. 

Q.  The  saloons  all  pay  a license  fee  of  $1,000  a year  in  Chicago?  A 

Yes. 

Q.  And  saloons,  under  strict  regulation,  must  close  at  1 o’clock? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  under  this  system  to  go  right  across  the  street  from 


454  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


the  saloon,  which  is  paying  this  $1,000  a year,  when  the  saloon  closes  at  1 
o’clock,  and  enter  into  these  dance  halls  and  resume  drinking?  A.  Yes, 
many  of  them  do.  At  some  of  the  dance  halls  they  don’t  charge  an  admis- 
sion late  in  the  evening. 

Q.  Without  making  this  a question  of  prohibition  or  non-prohibition, 
looking  at  it  from  a saloon  standpoint,  why  does  not  the  saloonkeeper,  who 
is  paying  his  $1,000  a year,  protest?  A.  I don’t  know.  I addressed  a 
meeting  of  saloonkeepers  on  that  sort  of  thing  a year  or  two  ago. 

Q.  What  did  they  say?  A.  They  didn’t  seem  to  care  about  it;  I am 
told  that  it  lays  with  the  breweries  and  not  the  saloonkeepers. 

Q.  You  think  the  first  evil  to  be  corrected  as  regards  to  dance  halls  is 
the  elimination  of  the  bar  permit?  A.  That  would  be  my  idea,  that  the 
sale  of  liquor,  that  it  should  be  prohibited;  personally  I would  not  have 
any  liquor  sold  in  any  dance  halls  where  young  people  congregate. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  can  be  done  to  remedy  that  evil?  A.  Per- 
sonally 1 would  not  have  any  liquor  sold  at  all  where  young  people  congre- 
gate. I would  have  a state  law  providing  that  no  liquor  should  be  sold  at 
any  dance  halls  or  other  places  of  amusement  where  young  people  congre- 
gate or  gather  together.  I am  very  much  in  favor  of  dance  halls;  I think 
they  are  absolutely  needed  for  young  people.  I only  object  to  liquor  being 
sold  to  the  young  people. 

Q.  Of  your  own  knowledge,  do  you  state  that  girls  go  into  these 
dance  halls  and  become  intoxicated?  A.  I know  they  do.  They  drink, 
they  are  not  accustomed  to  liquor,  and  they  don’t  know  w'hat  they  are 
doing. 

Q.  Those  girls  that  frequent  the  dance  halls  have  not  very  much  social 
life?  A.  No,  sir,  very  little. 

Q.  That  is  practically  the  only  avenue  of  social  activity  they  have? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Many  of  those  girls  are  poorly  paid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Underpaid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Making  less  than  a living  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  opinion  is  the  matter  of  wages  a factor  in  the  dance  hall 
problem?  A.  I think,  of  course,  when  a girl  is  underpaid  she  has  less 
resistance  to  temptation  generally,  especially  when  she  is  underfed,  but  I 
think  all  girls,  all  young  people,  are  bound  to  get  social  amusement  one 
way  or  another;  if  they  can’t  get  it  legitimately,  they  will  get  it  illegiti- 
mately. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  the  girl  who  has  more  money 
is  more  apt  to  find  other  ways  of  enjoying  herself?  A.  Yes,  sir,  naturally. 
She  goes  more  to  the  theatre,  the  high  priced  theatre,  while  the  girl  with 
very  little  can’t  afford  to  do  that. 

Q.  So  after  all  wages  has  got  all  to  do  with  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a good 
deal,  directly  and  indirectly. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  low  w'ages  has  ever  caused,  directly  or  indirectly, 
a girl  to  go  wrong?  A.  Oh,  yes,  I know,  because  we  have  a great  many 
instances  where  we  have  cases  of  girls  going  wrong,  directly  attributable 
to  that  cause.  I believe  it  is  a great  factor  in  the  matter. 

Q.  As  a woman  who  has  devoted  time  to  the  study  of  these  problems, 
and  who  has  sought  a remedy  for  the  menaces  which  surround  our  woman- 
hood, do  you  think  that  this  committee  has  pursued  a proper  policy  in 
devoting  part  of  its  investigation  to  the  matter  of  low  wages?  A.  I think 
it  is  one  factor,  but  I think  there  are  so  many  other  things;  I think  lack 
of  education  of  the  public  on  sex  hygiene  is  another  factor. 

Q.  If  you  were  conducting  an  investigation  of  this  nature  on  behalf 
of  or  in  the  name  of  the  state  of  Illinois,  would  you  inquire  into  the  matter 
of  low  wages?  A.  I would. 

Q.  That  is  a factor  that  you  would  not  ignore?  A.  No,  I would  not 
ignore  it,  but  I would  not  give  it  all  the  importance,  because  I think  all 
statistics  show  such  a large  number  of  girls  enter  into  a disreputable  life 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


455 


are  domestics,  and  they  are  paid  better  than  a good  many  others;  they  are 
very  well  paid. 

Q.  Why  does  the  girl  in  domestic  service  sometimes  go  wrong?  A.  I 
suppose  there  are  a great  many  reasons.  In  communities  like  ours,  she  must 
have  her  recreation  and  she  goes  out  to  dances  and  places  of  that  kind,  and 
gets  into  difficulties  in  that  way.  Most  of  American  girls  don’t  want  to  see 
their  men  friends  in  somebody  else’s  kitchen. 

Q.  Where  do  they  go?  A.  They  go  out  in  the  street,  or  else  into 
the  saloon,  or  the  parks,  or  five-cent  shows. 

Q.  That  is  usually  the  Case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  housewife  there  is  the  employer,  isn’t  she?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  She  may  have  only  one  employe?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  her  maid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  maid  works  hard  during  the  day,  and  at  night  has  only  the 
street  or  the  kitchen  in  which  to  meet  the  young  man?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  lessens  her  matrimonial  chances?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  girls  feel  reluctant  to  go  into 
domestic  service  because  of  the  uncertain  hours  and  treatment  and  the 
certain  lessening  of  their  chances  matrimonially?  A.  Yes,  and  another 
strong  reason  is  that  they  do  not  feel  that  they  stand  as  high  in  a social 
way  as  in  a shop  or  factory. 

Q.  Why  is  that?  A.  I suppose  there  is  that  sort  of,  I don’t  know 
exactly  what  it  is  that  attaches  itself  to  domestic  service,  that  sort  of  odium 
which  attaches  to  domestic  service. 

Q.  In  this  connection  have  you  any  legislation  to  propose,  any  way 
of  bettering  the  condition  of  the  domestic  through  the  enactment  of  any 
law?  A.  No,  I hardly  think  there  is.  There  is  no  use  of  enacting  any 
more  laws  in  that  direction  if  they  cannot  be  enforced.  I think  it  would 
be  a good  idea  if  we  would  open  all  of  our  school  houses  in  Illinois  to  the 
public  whenever  they  are  not  being  used  as  a school,  for  entertaining  and 
for  social  centers.  I believe  that  it  should  be  a common  meeting  point,  a 
community  center  where  everybody  could  gather  together  and  become 
acquainted  and  could  build  up  a social  fabric  that  would  be  for  the  best 
interests  of  the  community.  I believe  that  girls  and  men  would  rather  go 
there  because  that  is  a part  of  the  work  of  the  town  or  city  rather  than  to 
accept  charity  perhaps,  or  go  to  a church,  or  something  of  that  kind.  We 
only  have  twelve  school  houses  open  in  Chicago  out  of  267  public  schools 
and  166  parochial  schools. 

Q.  Why  aren’t  they  opened?  A.  Because  the  Board  of  Education 
say  they  have  not  enough  money  to  open  them;  it  would  cost  too  much 
money,  about  $100.00  to  the  school  house. 

Q.  One  hundred  dollars  per  year?  A.  One  thousand  dollars  per  year. 

Q.  How  would  you  propose  using  the  schools?  A.  We  would  have 
classes  for  boys  and  classes  for  girls  in  athletics;  I would  have  dances, 
bands,  orchestra,  a good  deal  of  music,  and  anything  that  the  boy  or  girl 
likes  to  do.  Some  of  our  big  schools  are  very  well  fitted  for  that,  and  the 
schools  are  used  only  a very  short  time  compared  to  the  number  of  hours 
that  they  are  closed. 

Q.  Mrs.  Bowen,  you  are  interested  in  the  welfare  of  the  girls  in  our 
large  retail  stores?  A.  Yes,  sir,  very  much. 

Q.  You  believe  that  they  are  underpaid  A.  Very  much  so;  I know 
they  are  underpaid,  a large  number. 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  is  the  lowest  amount  that  a girl  can  live  on 
respectably  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  I think  a girl  can  live  on  $8.00  a 
week  in  the  city  of  Chicago;  she  can  get  her  board,  her  food,  her  clothing, 
not  very  good,  but  decent,  her  lodging,  not  very  good,  but  it  leaves  nothing 
for  the  emergencies  of  life. 

Q.  In  case  of  sickness?  A.  In  case  of  sickness,  $10.00,  or  anything 
like  that,  she  can  get  along  on  that,  but  it  leaves  her  absolutely  nothing  left. 


456  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  If  .she  gets  $8.00  a week  she  is  selling  her  services  without  profit; 
she  is  just  getting  a living  out  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whereas  the  employer  quits  a business  if  he  just  breaks  even?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  girls  at  $8.00  a week  are  selling  at  cost?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Without  any  profit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  girl  who  is  working  at  less  than  $8.00  a week  is  selling 
below  cost?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  solution  of  that  problem?  A.  Higher-  wages  for 
girls. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  enforce  that?  A.  By  a minimum  wage  law. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  a minimum  wage  law?  A.  Alost  decidedly. 

Q.  Do  the  girls  believe  in  a minimum  wage  law?  A.  So  far  as  I 
know.  I have  been  to  a great  many  meetings  of  working  girls,  and  they 
are  very  much  interested. 

Q.  You  have  been  to  a great  many  meetings?  A.  Yes,  sir,  recently 
I spoke  at  the  Women’s  Trade  Union. 

Q.  Have  they  attempted  to  organize  the  girl  clerks?  A.  Yes,  they 
have. 

Q.  How  many  girls  working  in  department  stores  have  attended  those 
meetings  within  the  last  few  weeks?  A.  I should  say  several  hundred. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  girl  employed  by  any  retail  store  who  "’ttended 
a meeting  called  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  the  organization  of  girl 
workers — A.  Yes. 

Q.  — and  who  after  the  holding  of  that  meeting  was  discharged?  A. 
I have  been  told  of  eighteen  that  were. 

Q.  Can  you  within  a reasonable  period  of  time,  say  within  a week, 
furnish  this  committee  with  the  names  and  addresses  of  those  eighteen 
girls?  A.  I do  not  believe  that  I can.  I was  told  that  by  one  of  the 
officers  of  the  Women’s  Trade  Union  League  who  told  me,  two  were  in 
the  office  at  the  time  she  telephoned  me,  and  gave  their  names,  and  said 
that  they  knew  four  more,  and  stated  that  eighteen  had  been  discharged 
from  the  store  where  she  was  working,  and  she  would  furnish  their  names. 
I don’t  even  know  who  the  girl  was. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Where  was  that?  A.  At  Siegel  Cooper 
& Company’s. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Thej-  have  paid  the  lowest  wages  of  any 
store  in  the  down-town  district. 

MRS.  BOWEN:  I couldn’t  say,  I don’t  know. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  I believe  that  was  testified  to  before  this 
committee.  If  it  is  true  that  they  are  paying  lower  wages  here  than  else- 
where, isn’t  it  a fact  that  they  are  capitalizing  human  flesh  and  blood? 
(No  answer.) 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  you  known  of  any  girl,  of  any  specific 
case,  wlio  went  wrong  because  she  was  paid  a starvation  wage?  A.  \ es, 
sir. 

Q.  You  have  known  of  cases  of  that  sort?  A.  Yes.  sir,  I have  known 
of  several  that  came  into  the  Women’s  Protective  Association. 

Q.  Where  you  believed  that  the  girl  was  telling  the  truth?  A.  \ es, 
sir.  I had  no  reason  to  believe  any  other  way. 

Q.  You  know  of  cases  where  she  has  sold  herself  for  money?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I know  of  one  case,  she  was  hungry;  she  hadn’t  had  an3'thing  to 
eat  for  a long  time. 

Q.  And  she  sold  herself  for  money?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  believed  that  she  had  been  good  up  to  that  time?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  she  came  to  the  Juvenile  Protective  Association,  bringing  with  her 
another  little  girl,  and  told  her  own  storj'  to  me.  She  said,  “It  is  too  late 
now,  you  can’t  do  anything  for  me,  but  perhaps  j'ou  can  help  this  little 
girl.”  Her  storj'  was  ver}-  true;  do  vou  wish  me  to  give  the  name  of  this 
girl? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


457 


SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Have  you  heard  any  of  the  testimony  given 
by  the  merchants?  A.  I have  only  read  what  I have  seen  in  the  papers;  I 
have  read  that  with  great  interest. 

Q.  Where  they  said  that  wages  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  question 
of  immorality?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  for  suspecting  that  self-interest  caused  that 
testimony  to  be  given?  A.  I could  not  say  that;  I think,  of  course,  every 
merchant  wants  to  make  out  his  case  as  well  as  he  can;  that  is  only  natural. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  What  are  those  cards  you  have  here?  A. 
These  are  one  or  two  of  the  dance  halls.  I have  picked  them  up  at  random 
as  they  came.  Do  you  want  me  to  read  them?  Here  is  one,  “The  German 
Hod  Carriers’  Hall;  very  dirty;  light  bad;  liquor  served  in  the  bar;  platform 
! around  top;  vulgar  with  girls;  no  ventilation;  conduct  very  bad,  etc.” 

Q.  Are  all  of  those  about  the  same  class?  A.  Yes,  they  are  about 
the  same  class. 

Q.  They  are  mostly  dance  halls?  A.  They  are  all  dance  halls.  Do 
you  want  another  one?  Here  is  the  Schlitz  Hall.  (Reads): 

SCHLITZ  HALL.  1600  W.  Division  St. 

Reputation?  Fair. 

I Given  by  a Polish  Society. 

Reputation  of  person  or  organization  giving  dance?  Good, 
j Approximate  number  present?  ISO. 

! Special  bar  permit?  Yes. 

I Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian?  Five  boys 

and  two  girls. 

Was  liquor  served  in  hall  proper?  Yes,  beer.  A family  party. 
Was  liquor  served  to  minors?  No. 

Were  persons  in  hall  intoxicated?  No. 

Was  there  disorder  in  consequence  of  drinking?  No. 

Bar  operated  by  club. 

Conduct  of  employes?  Good. 

Was  there  indecent  dancing?  No. 

Did  men  smoke  in  hall?  No. 

Were  there  children  under  sixteen  years  employed  after  7 p.  m.?  No. 
Inspected  by  Joseph  Holt.  Ellen  Gustafson. 

Date.  1-28-12 


SCHLITZ’S  HALL.  Division  St.  and  Ashland  Ave. 
Opening  from  saloon?  By  rear  door. 

Rooming  house  or  hotel?  None. 

Beer  garden  attached?  None. 

Safety?  One  exit. 

Cleanliness?  Fair.  Ventilation,  fair. 

Lighting?  Poor. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor?  At 
head  of  stairs  close  to  dance  floor. 

Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian?  Few. 
Liquor  served?  Yes. 

Where?  At  bar. 

Special  bar  permit?  Yes. 

Liquor  served  to  minors?  Yes. 

Conduct  of  employees?  None  present. 


458 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Conduct  of  dancers?  Tough. 

Dance  hall  habitues  or  “rounders”  present?  Yes. 

Children  under  sixteen  employed  after  7 p.  m.?  None. 

Dance  given  by?  Polish  lodge. 

Reputation?  Bad. 

Police  officers  present?  Yes. 

Admission?  Fifty  cents. 

Inspected  by  S.  H.  Leavitt. 

Date:  Nov.  13,  1910. 

Remarks:  Herman  Gerstein  manager  and  proprietor  of  saloon 
downstairs.  He  formerly  was  manager  of  the  Schoenhofen  Hall.  The 
Schlitz  Brewery  Company  are  owners.  There  is  a saloon  downstairs 
in  the  rear  of  which  is  a wine  room.  There  is  a small  door  leading  to 
the  stairs  which  leads  to  the  dance  hall.  The  hall  is  small  with  a large 
number  of  tables  and  chairs  around  the  hall.  On  this  night  the  people 
were  all  Polish  and  few  could  speak  English.  The*  bar  is  open  until 
3 a.  m.  There  is  also  a narrow  balcony  around  the  hall.  A large  num- 
ber of  fights  ensued,  of  little  consequence,,  however.  No  prostitutes 
were  present.  A number  of  boys  under  age  were  present  and  drinking. 


SCHLITZ  HALL.  Division  St.  and  Ashland  Av. 

Opening  from  saloon?  Yes. 

Safety?  Poor,  narrow,  crowded  stairway,  one  fire  escape. 

Cleanliness?  Very  dirty. 

Ventilation?  Very  bad. 

Lighting?  Fair. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor? 
Narrow  hallway  leading  to  dance  floor.  Bar  at  one  side,  women’s 
wardrobe  and  toilet.  The  other  with  door  usually  open. 

Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian?  Yes. 

Age  of  girls?  15-25,  a few  older. 

Age  of  boys?  18-25. 

Liquor  served?  Yes. 

Where?  Tables  around  floor,  bar,  tables  in  gallery,  liquor  carried 
across  hallway  and  dance  floor  to  tables. 

Liquor  served  to  minors?  Yes;  signs  up,  “No  minors  allowed.” 

Ages?  All  ages  present. 

Conduct  of  employees?  Good. 

Conduct  of  dancers?  Bad.  Bouncers  stood  in  center  of  floor  but 
did  nothing. 

Dance  hall  habitues  or  “rounders”  present?  Yes,  habitues  and 
rounders  of  both  sexes. 

Children  under  sixteen  emplo3'ed  after  7 p.  m.?  No. 

Police  officers  present?  Three.  No.  of  stars,  3613,  3595,  3596. 

Service  rendered?  Poor. 

Admission?  25  cents  each;  wardrobe,  15  cents  each. 

Inspected  by  E.  Belden.  J.  Anderson. 

Date  Dec.  21,  1912. 

Remarks:  Officers  3613  and  3695  drinking.  No  attempt  made  to 
regulate  the  conduct  of  the  crowd  in  the  bar,  hallway  or  dance  floor. 
After  1 o’clock  a set  of  “bums”  came  in  free.  The  conduct  in  this  hall 
was  the  worst  I have  seen.  Most  of  the  men  and  women  were  drunk. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


459 


some  exceedingly  drunk  before  we  left.  One  girl  was  so  drunk  she  fell 
on  the  floor,  tearing  her  waist  almost  entirely  from  her  belt.  She  went 
on  dancing,  but  was  too  tipsy  to  keep  it  up.  During  the  intermissions 
of  twenty  minutes  and  more  spooning  was  continuous.  A man  sat  on 
a girl’s  lap  until  he  was  too  sleepy  to  do  anything  but  lie  back  in  his 
chair  doubled  up.  This  couple  scarcely  danced  at  all — sat  by  a table 
drinking  and  carousing — the  girl  with  her  feet  upon  the  seat  of  the 
chair  in  front  of  her.  Kissing,  hugging,  indecent  dancing  positions, 
carousing  with  loud,  boisterous  singing  and  yelling  by  groups  of  men. 
Men  on  the  floor  whistled  up  to  girls  in  the  gallery  to  come  down  to 
dance  with  them.  Fellows  in  the  gallery  would  single  out  a couple  and 
yell  down  to  them.  The  floor  was  too  crowded  for  decency.  Girls 
stood  in  hallway  by  barroom  door  making  dates  for  other  nights.  A 
half  dozen  girls  looked  like  professional  street  walkers.  Two  nice  little 
girls  said  they  were  fifteen  years  old,  but  one  looked  much  younger. 
They  came  with  a girl  about  eighteen;  other  girls  about  same  age. 
Ventilation  terrible,  air  blue  with  smoke  and  heavy  with  odors  of  liquor. 
In  case  of  fire  it  would  have  been  impossible  to  get  half  of  this  crowd 
of  a thousand  out  of  the  building. 


Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain  Gives  Additional  Testimony. 

MRS.  GERTRUDE  HOWE  BRITTAIN:  Here  is  a hall  which  we 
have  a report  on,  and  it  shows  a very  good  state  of  affairs.  I am  taking 
these  cards  at  random,  that  you  will  see  the  way  in  which  we  have  been 
checking  them  up.  (Reading  as  follows): 

SCHILLER  HALL.  109  E.  Randolph  St. 

Opening  from  saloon?  No. 

Rooming  house  or  hotel?  No. 

Beer  garden  attached?  No. 

Safety?  Good. 

Cleanliness?  Good. 

Inspected  by  C.  F.  and  Marie  Leavitt. 

Date:  March  4,  1911. 

Remarks:  Hall  for  rent.  We  doubt  if  this  hall  has  been  used  for 
a dance  this  winter.  Elevator  man  said  that  was  on  nights  during 
months  of  November  and  January  he  never  knew  of  a dance  being  held 
there. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Here  is  another  one,  the  Hesperian  Hall,  situated 
at  69th  and  Ashland  avenue,  at  which  the  conditions  are  very  bad.  (Reads 
as  follows:) 


HESPERIAN  HALL.  69th  and  Ashland  Ave. 

Hall  unsafe  and  very  dirty. 

No  dance — complaint  lack  of  business. 

Reputation?  Very  bad. 

Inspected  by  C.  Franklin  Leavitt. 

Date:  12-3-11. 

HESPERIAN  HALL.  69th  and  Ashland. 

Opening  from  saloon?  No. 

Rooming  house  or  hotel?  No. 

Beer  garden  attached?  No. 


460 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Safety?  Very  poor. 

Cleanliness?  Filthy. 

Ventilation?  Fair. 

Lighting?  Poor. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor?  Bar 
directly  off  dance  floor.  Toilets  properly  separated. 

Liquor  served?  Yes. 

Where?  At  bar  and  in  dance  hall. 

Special  bar  permit?  Yes. 

Liquor,  served  to  minors?  Yes.  Ages?  12  and  over. 

Conduct  of  employees?  Careless. 

Conduct  of  dancers?  Vile. 

Dance  hall  habitues  or  “rounders”  present?  Very  many. 

Children  under  sixteen  employed  after  7 p.  m.?  No. 

Dance  given  by?  South  Side  Shwaeb.-Badish  Ladies  Ben.  Society. 

Reputation  of  hall?  Bad. 

Police  officers  present?  Yes. 

Number  of  star?  1896. 

Service  rendered?  None. 

Admission?  Men  25c,  women  25c;  wardrobe  10c. 

Inspected  by  C.  F.  and  Marie  Leavitt. 

Date:  January  28,  1911. 

Remarks:  Attendance  about  400.  This  hall  is  on  the  third  floor 
over  a saloon  and  is  reached  by  a narrow,  twisted,  wooden  stairway. 
It  is  across  from  a large  street  car  barn  and  many  conductors  came  in 
as  they  went  off  duty.  The  stairway,  entrance  hall,  dance  hall  and 
toilets  are  filthy  beyond  expression  and  were  so  crowded  that  a panic 
would  surely  have  resulted  in  the  loss  of  many  lives.  The  dance  was  a 
masquerade  given  by  German  women  and  they  sat  around,  complacently 
watching  their  young  people  misbehaving  vilely.  There  was  no  super- 
vision either  in  the  hall  or  at  the  bar,  men,  women,  children  and  the 
policemen  drinking  together  over  the  bar  and  young  people  dancing  in 
an  immoral  manner.  There  were  some  intoxicated  men.  The  .girls 
sat  around  on  the  boys’  laps,  permitting  them  indecent  liberties.  One 
girl,  conspicuous  for  her  bad  behavior,  I knew  to  be  a dependent  ward 
of  Juvenile  Court.  She  is  fifteen  years  old  and  came  to  the  dance  with 
a girl  sixteen,  both  dressed  in  bloomer  suits.  She  told  me  she  had 
never  seen  the  boys  before,  yet  she  lolled  about  in  their  arms,  permit- 
ting them  everj^  liberty.  'She  told  me  also  that  it  was  4 a.  m.  when  she 
arrived  home.  We  hear  that  the  dances  at  this  hall  are  uniformlj-  bad. 

HESPERIAN  HALL.  69th  and  Ashland  Ave. 

Opening  from  saloon?  Downstairs. 

Beer  garden  attached?  Yes.  (Bar.) 

Safety?  Fair. 

Cleanliness?  Dirty. 

Ventilation?  Poor. 

Lighting?  Fair. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor?  Bar 
attached  to  dance  hall. 

Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian. 

Age  of  girls?  Twelve  to  sixteen. 

Age  of  boys?  Fifteen  to  seventeen. 

Conduct  of  employees?  Poor. 

Conduct  of  dancers?  Boisterous  and  vulgar. 

Liquor  served?  On  floor  and  bar  adjoining. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


461 


Special  bar  permit?  Yes. 

Liquor  served  to  minors?  Undoubtedly. 

Ages?  Twelve  to  sixteen. 

Dance  hall  habitues  or  “rounders”  present?  Dance  hall  habitues 
mostly. 

Dance  given  by?  Trolley  A.  A. 

Reputation?  Bad. 

Police  officers  present?  Two. 

Number  of  star?  1996,  2069. 

Service  rendered?  Poor. 

Admission?  25  cents  person;  wardrobe,  25  cents  person. 

Inspected  by  M.  E.  Long  and  K.  McGoorty. 

Date:  December  14,  1912. 

Remarks:  The  police  officers  present  at  this  dance  were  paying 
very  little  attention  to  a boisterous  crowd  in  attendance.  As  one 
“drunk’  expresesd  it,  “Everything  goes  here.”  Both  officers  were  seen 
at  one  time  in  the  evening  standing  at  the  bar  adjoining  the  hall  and 
both  were  smoking.  They  paid  no  attention  whatever  to  the  drunken 
fellows  who  were  spilling  beer  and  spitting  all  over  the  floor.  Waiters 
were  rushing  back  and  forth  between  the  dancers,  and  one  waiter  carry- 
ing a tray  of  beer  nearly  knocked  a couple  down.  The  beer  was  scat- 
tered all  over  the  floor,  dancers  and  tables,  but  no  one  seemed  to  think 
.f  it  was  out  of  the  usual  run  of  things.  There  is  a bar  opening  off  the 

I dance  hall,  and  the  liquor  was  also  served  at  tables  on  the  dance  hall 

floor.  There  is  a saloon  with  wine-rooms  directly  under  the  hall,  and 
one  did  not  have  to  leave  the  building  to  get  to  it,  as  there  is  a door  at 
the  bottom  of  the  stairs  leading  directly  into  the  saloon  and  wine-rooms. 
Here  the  crowd  (many  of  the  boys  and  girls  not  over  fourteen  or  fif- 
teen) would  congregate  between  dances.  Very  long  intermissions 
were  given  between  each  dance,  evidently  to  allow  the  dancers  plenty 
of  time  to  drink.  One  young  fellow  made  the  remark  (he  was  very 
drunk;  in  fact,  could  hardly  stand)  that  he  was  going  downstairs  to 
“get”  a girl  he  had  his  eye  on  all  night.  He  said,  “I  guess  she  is  pretty 
well  stewed  by  this  time,  and  if  I get  her  you  fellows  won’t  see  me  again 
tonight.”  He  didn’t  return  to  the  hall.  The  hall  of  itself  has  the  repu- 
tation of  being  patronized  by  a tough  gang. 


MRS.  BRITTAIN:  And  here  is  another  one,  which  I will  read.  This 
is  Germania  Hall,  at  33rd  and  Wentworth  avenue.  (Reads  as  follows:) 
GERMANIA  HALL.  3311  Wentworth  Avenue. 

Opening  from  saloon?  Yes. 

Rooming  house  or  hotel?  No. 

Beer  garden  attached?  No. 

Safety?  Unsafe. 

Cleanliness?  Dirty. 

Ventilation?  Good. 

Lighting?  Good. 

Location  of  bar  and  toilet  rooms  in  relation  to  dancing  floor?  Bar 
adjoining  hall  floor;  one  toilet. 

Minors  present  not  accompanied  by  parent  or  guardian?  Yes. 

Age  of  girls?  Fourteen  to  sixteen. 

Age  of  boys?  Fourteen  to  eighteen. 

Liquor  served?  Yes.  Where?  Bar  adjoining  hall  floor  and  tables. 
Special  bar  permit?  Yes. 


462  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Liquor  served  to  minors?  Yes.  Ages?  Fourteen  to  sixteen. 

Conduct  of  employees?  Fair.  Conduct  of  dancers?  Fair. 

Children  under  sixteen  employed  after  7 p.  m.?  No. 

Dance  given  by  Lithuanian  Society.  Reputation?  Fair. 

Officers  present?  One.  Star  No.  361.  Service  rendered?  Fair. 

Admission?  Twenty-five  cents  person. 

Remarks:  One  officer,  star  No.  361,  was  present.  He  was  in  stand- 
ing at  the  bar  part  of  the  evening,  but  laughingly  said,  “I  drank  so 
much  beer  this  afternoon  I can’t  stand  any  longer.”  He  was  smoking, 
but  did  not  appear  to  be  drinking.  This  dance  was  given  by  a Lithu- 
anian Society.  Many  families  were  present,  and  the  elderly  part  of  the 
crowd  did  not  seem  to  object  at  all  to  very  young  fellows  and  girls  sit- 
ting on  each  others’  laps,  drinking,  kissing  each  other,  etc.  The  worst 
feature  of  this  hall  is  the  toilet.  There  is  but  one  toilet  for  men  and 
women.  The  sign  on  the  door  reads,  “Ladies’  Dressing  Room,”  but 
when  the  writer  entered  this  place  I saw  a young  fellow  standing  out- 
side the  toilet  waiting  to  get  in.  A young  girl  (not  over  fourteen  or 
fifteen)  walked  out,  spoke  to  him  in  a friendly  way,  and  he  went  into 
the  toilet.  This  was  repeated  several  times  in  the  evening.  We  ivere 
told  that  they  had  been  dancing  and  drinking  since  2 p.  m.  Sunday,  and 
they  did  not  close  the  place  until  1 a.  m.  Monday.  At  the  bottom  of  the 
stairs  leading  down  from  this  hall  is  a saloon,  but  there  are  no  wine- 
rooms  in  this  place. 


SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  there  are  78  dance  halls  with  dis- 
reputable houses  attached? 

MRS.  BOWEN : I said  there  were  77  disreputable  lodging  houses 
connected  with  dance  halls  or  in  the  immediate  vicinity  that  were  used  by 
dance  hall  habitues.  There  are  240  halls,  out  of  328  halls  licensed,  where 
liquor  is  sold;  of  that  146  were  selling  liquor  to  minors,  77  had  disreputable 
lodging  houses  attached  or  in  the  immediate  vicinity,  and  while  we  found 
at  158  of  these  dances,  202  policemen  were  on  duty,  but  at  only  17  dances 
did  they  render  good  service,  or  in  any  way  attempt  to  enforce  the  law. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  First  you  would  refuse  the  dance  halls 
bar  permits;  could  they  be  run  without  those  permits? 

MRS.  BOWEN:  Oh,  yes,  I should  think  so.  It  seems  that  is  rather 
peculiar  to  Chicago.  Some  dance  halls  in  other  cities,  in  Kansas  City,  they 
have  their  dance  halls  without  liquor  selling. 

Q.  Aside  from  that  what  do  you  think  is  the  next  best  step?  A.  Per- 
sonally I should  like  to  see  woman  police  in  dance  halls.  She  could  not  do 
the  same  work  that  a policeman  does  at  all,  but  she  could  look  after  the 
girls.  She  could  see  the  girl  drinking  and  she  could  go  up  to  her  and  show 
her  police  authority  and  say,  “You  can’t  drink  any  more.”  She  could  follow 
girls  that  were  going  away  with  young  men. 

Q.  How  do  you  think  is  the  best  way  to  get  these  women  police? 
A.  They  should  not  be  appointed  by  a Chief  of  Police;  they  should  take 
the  examination  the  way  the  men  do.  I should  think  they  should  be 
trained  women. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Don’t  you  really  think  about  these  dance  halls, 
there  is  not  so  much  bad  about  the  dance  halls  as  in  the  disreputable  houses 
that  are  usually  established  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  dance  halls,  houses 
like  the  Royal  hotel,  the  Cadillac  hotel,  that  were  pointed  out  bj'  the  plain- 
clothes men  as  being  rooming  houses.  I was  at  a dance  and  had  a long  talk 
with  a young  girl,  and  she  said  she  had  a nice  furnished  room,  girls  came 
there  and  danced  and  met  these  fellows  and  went  with  them  to  these  lodg- 
ing houses. 

MRS.  BOWEN:  Yes,  that  is  true. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  And  I am  of  the  impression  that  these  cheap 
hotels  are  merely  assignation  houses. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


463 


MRS.  BOWEN:  These  girls  wouldn’t  go  to  them  so  much  if  they 
hadn’t  taken  liquor. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That’s  what  we  found  out:  this  young  lady  this 
morning  told  about  the  same  story.  I was  up  to  a dance  house  along  about 
2 o’clock  in  the  morning  and  they  were  running  full  blast  then,  selling 
whiskey  then.  They  say  in  the  bar  license,  they  say  they  close  at  12  o’clock, 
but  they  had  whiskey  selling  at  2 o’clock  when  I left  there. 

MRS.  BOWEN:  Might  I tell  one  little  experience  we  had  with  a man 
running  a dance  hall?  A man  came  to  us  who  was  running  a dance  hall  on 
the  northwest  side  of  the  city,  and  he  said  that  his  dance  hall  was  not 
respectable  and  he  was  very  much  worried  about  the  girls,  and  he  asked  us 
what  he  should  do.  He  had  a saloon  in  connection  with  the  dance  hall 
and  we  told  him  that  he  should  close  his  saloon  and  have  no  drinks  disposed 
of.  He  agreed  to  do  this.  He  has  dispensed  with  the  selling  of  liquor  and 
he  pays  a social  worker  who  goes  up  there  and  attends  those  dances,  and 
the  social  worker  has  been  able  to  keep  order  in  the  place.  The  man  came 
down  a little  while  ago  and  laid  his  check  down  and  he  said  he  could  sleep 
nights  now  on  account  of  the  girls. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Would  you  care  to  say  what  place  it  is? 

MRS.  BOWEN:  It  is  Brodies’  Hall,  Sangamon  and  Grand  avenue. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  speaks  well  for  him.  Have  you  anything 
else  you  care  to  say? 

MRS.  BOWEN:  No,  I think  that’s  all.  I have  a great  deal  to  say,  but 
I feel  very  strongly  about  this  subject  of  dance  halls,  because  a great  many 
girls  go  wrong  in  them. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  have  any  power  to  investigate  or  stop 
the  owners  from  admitting  minors? 

MRS.  BOWEN:  No,  we  have  had  a great  many  prosecutions,  but  it 
is  very  difficult  to  obtain  evidence.  Our  state  law  provides  that  no  minor 
shall  be  present  in  any  dance  hall,  and  we  have  had  prosecutions,  I don’t 
know  how  many,  but  they  are  rather  hard  to  convict  in,  because  we  have 
to  get  the  minor,  to  follow  him  or  her  home,  and  get  their  age  and  then  get 
them  to  testify.  On  one  of  these  cards  I have  I notice  that  a girl  of  seven 
was  drinking  in  one  of  these  places. 

Coroner  Peter  Hoffman’s  Testimony. 

PETER  HOFFMAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CH.4IRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  My  name  is  Peter 
M.  Hoffman. 

Q.  And  your  office?  A.  I am  Coroner  of  Cook  County. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Coroner,  a young  man  was  on  the  stand 
today  and  he  told  of  an  episode  in  his  life  when  he  was  a boy.  He  is  a fellow 
who  never  had  a home,  has  knocked  around  in  the  world,  and  he  had,  I 
guess,  one  love  affair. 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  He  was  fortunate  to  have  but  one. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  This  little  girl  was  not  getting  very  much 
money,  and  he  not  very  much;  she  was  lured  into  a life  of  disgrace  and 
dishonor,  and  to  get  out  of  it  she  committed  suicide.  After  hearing  that 
story,  Mr.  Coroner,  we  decided  to  call  you. 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  suicides  do  we  have  a year  in  the 
red-light  district  in  Chicago? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Well,  now,  that  would  be  hard  for  me  to  say  off- 
hand, Governor.  I believe  that  my  statistics  will  show  that  during  my 
tenure  of  office,  covering  a period  of  over  eight  years,  eight  years  and  three 
months,  that  we  have  had  about  36,000  Coroner’s  cases.  Out  of  the  36,000 
there  were  probably  about  4,000  and  some  odd  hundred  suicides.  Out  of 


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that  4,000  and  some  odd  hundred  suicides  I presume  that  about  one  out  of 
every  three  were  women,  making  about  1,500,  more  or  less,  women  and  girls. 
It  would  be  necessary  for  me  to  refer  to  my  statistics  to  ascertain  the  ages, 
or  between  what  ages  those  women  were.  Offhand  speaking,  I would  say 
that  there  are  some  suicides  due  to  the  causes  you  are  investigating.  I 
could  not  mention  any  specific  cases,  however,  without  going  through  mv 
files.  It  would  be  natural  that  there  should  be  some  cause.  Those  unfor- 
tunates, as  you  all  know,  very  often  have  suicidal  tendencies.  This  could 
be  determined  by  looking  through  my  statistics.  I don’t  know  what  the 
percentage  were  due  to  that  cause;  I haven’t  any  idea;  a small  percentage, 
I presume,  but  I have  no  doubt  that  there  are  some. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  In  your  experience  what  have  you  found  to 
be  the  most  common  cause  of  self-destruction?  A.  Well,  despondency, 
insanity.  I contend  that  all  those  who  take  their  own  lives,  at  the  time  the 
life  is  taken  are  insane  at  that  moment.  If  they  had  a chance  to  think  it 
over  for  a few  seconds,  perhaps  they  would  not  take  their  lives. 

Q.  It  is  your  observance  that  in  the  majority  of  cases  despondency 
has  led  to  insanity  and  self-destruction?  A.  Yes,  that  is  the  main  factor. 

Q.  An  employer  before  this  committee  last  week  said  that  there  were 
three  avenues  of  escape  for  girls  who  are  being  paid  starvation  wages: 
matrimony,  white  slavery,  and  death;  now  do  you  recall  any  case  where  a 
girl  committed  suicide  because  she  was  not  making  enough  money  to  live 
on?  A.  Well,  I would  answer  that  in  this  way:  that  the  immediate  cause 
is  despondency. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  state  it  as  your  opinion,  born  of 
knowledge,  that  there  have  been  cases  of  suicide  resulting  from  despondency 
because  of  the  insufficiency  of  the  wage? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  I believe  I do.  Governor;  we  all  know  it.  We 
know  that  men,  women  or  girls,  who  have  been  unable  to  obtain  employ- 
ment, have  walked  the  streets  of  our  large  cities  looking  for  employment, 
and  not  having  ample  means  of  securing  the  necessaries  of  life  and  so  forth, 
we  all  know  that  that  would  lead  to  despondency.  Small  wages  would  be 
liable  to  do  that  beyond  a doubt.  And  suicide  would  even  follow.  There 
is  no  question  about  that.  We  have  a great  many  cases  which  would  per- 
haps not  interest  your  committee  here,  men  between  the  ages  of  thirty-five 
and  forty,  or  forty-five  and  fifty,  or  fift3'-five;  also  women  of  those  ages 
that  have  committed  suicide  because  they  are  out  of  employment,  and  when 
they  seek  employment  they  find  that  in  the  mercantile  world  the^'  want 
younger  men  and  younger  women  and  they  can’t  secure  emploj'ment,  and 
they  even  commit  suicide  because  of  that  fact. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  are  we  to  remedy  the  evils  that  we  see 
on  all  hands  springing  from  low  wages? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Governor,  you  have  a hard  task  to  perform.  I 
could  not  answer,  and  I would  not  wish  to  attempt  to  answer  that  question. 
It  is  a perplexing  problem. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  thought  along  this  line  manjq 
many  times,  I know,  Mr.  Coroner,  what  remedies  have  suggested  them- 
selves to  you? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Why,  I don’t  know.  Governor.  I would  hate  to  have 
to  answer  that  question.  I would  have  to  require  some  time  for  thought.  I 
would  have  to  require  some  time  for  a checking  of  the  records  in  m\-  office. 
I will  admit  this,  however,  that  as  a coroner  of  this  counU',  that  contains 
upwards  of  2,500,000  people,  I see  more  of  it  than  an\"  other  official.  The 
question  of  suicide,  industrial  accidents  that  leave  a widow,  perhaps,  and 
orphans  unprotected;  those  things  require  serious  thought  and  stud\'. 
Something  should  be  done  along  those  lines,  and  if  your  committee  please, 
with  the  consent  of  the  Chairman,  I might  furnish  you  the  statement  cover- 
ing a period  of  eight  years  past  showing  the  condition  of  things  in  my  office. 
It  is  often,  that  in  a moment  of  mental  disorder,  the  bread  winner  of  the 
familv  is  taken  away,  and  usually  there  are  left  a widow  and  numerous  chil- 
dren as  a rule.  Those  children  have  the  choice  between  assault  and  bat- 
tery and  public  alms.  They  are  brought  up  on  the  streets  of  our  city 
without  proper  food,  care  or  education  due  to  that  cause,  and  I presume  we 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


465 


have  a great  many  bad  citizens,  because  of  that  very  fact,  because  of  those 
conditions.  Those  conditions  should  be  remedied.  It  would  take  time 
and  careful  study  for  me  to  suggest  an  adequate  remedy  for  those  condi- 
tions. In  my_  quadrennial  report  I speak  of  these  conditions  and  of  the 
suicide  condition  especially  in  that  report.  I think  it  would  be  well  to 
appoint  a committee  such  as  the  committees  that  are  appointed  for  other 
public  purposes  to  look  up  and  study  the  question  of  suicide  and  self- 
destruction.  Also  we  should  have  a committee  to  look  into  the  question 
of  industrial  accidents  that  leave  a widow  and  orphans  in  a great  many 
cases  unprotected.  There  are  perhaps  some  other  suggestions  that  I might 
make,  but  I do  not  wish  to  make  them  here  today  without  referring  to  my 
records  and  papers  in  the  office. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Let  me  ask  you  a question:  You  hold  inquests, 
do  you  not? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  I have  a number  of  deputies  for  that  purpose.  I do 
hold  a great  many  important  cases. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  hold  inquests  in  these  so-called  hotels, 
or  assignation  houses,  on  prostitutes  that  have  been  killed  there? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Oh,  yes,  we  have  cases  in  those  houses;  yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  whether  they  are  generally  suicide 
or  natural  death? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  If  they  are  not  suicide  they  come  not  under  my 
jurisdiction.  A natural  death  does  not  come  under  my  jurisdiction. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I mean  in  cases  of  sudden  death. 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Cases  of  sudden  death  without  medical  attendance 
would  come  under  my  jurisdiction.  ' 

Q.  Do  you  have  many  of  that  kind?  A.  We  have,  yes,  quite  a num- 
ber. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Coroner,  I wonder  if  your  records  would 
permit  you  to  report  to  this  committee  at  a later  date  as  to  the  number  of 
girls  in  employment  who  have  committed  suicide  within  the  last  eight  years 
and  the  amount  of  money  they  were  receiving  from  their  employment  at 
the  time  of  the  suicide? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  No;  I could  give  you  the  number  of  girls  and  their 
ages,  but  as  to  the  compensation  that  they  were  receiving,  I could  not  say 
as  to  that;  the  evidence  in  these  cases  might  in  some  cases  show  and  in 
others  it  might  not. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Could  you  go  over  your  records  and  at  our 
next  meeting  in  this  city  in  a week  or  two  again  appear  before  us  with  some 
specific  cases  and  such  figures  as  you  might  find  available  to  give  us? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  I would  be  pleased  to  make  a report  to  this  Com- 
mittee showing  the  number  of  suicides  and  ages  and  the  probable  causes.  1 
could  prepare  a statement  of  that  kind.  I wish  to  say  to  this  Committee 
that  during  the  tenure  of  my  office  it  has  been  my  aim  that  wherever  we 
find  a woman  has  committed  suicide  we  generally  find  that  that  suicide  is 
due  to  some  cause,  and  we  try  to  find  what  that  cause  is,  and  to  make  rec- 
ommendations to  obviate  that  cause.  We  can  do  that  more  readily  in  acci- 
dent cases  than  we  can  in  suicide  cases.  But  there  is  no  question  but  what 
the  suicide  problem  is  a serious  problem,  and  it  should  receive  the  attention 
of  somebody,  of  some  official  that  has  higher  authority  than  the  coroner  of 
the  county,  perhaps. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Mr.  Coroner,  did  you  say  that  there  was 
one  woman  in  three  among  the  suicides? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Yes,  about  one  in  three  perhaps,  or  a little  better 
than  that. 

Q.  The  larger  proportion  of  men  and  children  that  commit  suicide 
have  found  it  impossible  to  get  from  the  world  a living?  A.  Yes,  I 
think  so. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  And  that  is  often  due,  where  a woman  or 
man  is  concerned,  and  more  especially  a woman,  to  the  fact  that  the  burden 
is  on  their  shoulders;  isn’t  it  reasonable  to  assume  that  the  women  often 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


commit  suicide  for  that  reason,  that  is  that  the  burden  of  life,  perhaps  of 
sustaining  or  caring  for  a large  family,  is  upon  them? 

MR.  HOFFMAN:  Yes,  there  is  something  in  that  proposition,  no 
doubt.  It  is  often  the  case  with  the  head  of  the  family.  Now,  I don’t  know 
that  my  statistics  would  show  that,  but  where  the  head  of  the  family  is  out 
of  employment,^  and  there  are  girls  in  that  family,  and  they  have  not  the 
necessaries  of  life  at  home,  it  is  a fact  that  they  sometimes  go  wrong  to 
bring  to  the  home  support  for  the  balance  of  the  family.  I think  that  is  true. 

Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Brittain’s  Testimony  Continued. 

MRS.  GERTRUDE  HOWE  BRITTAIN,  recalled,  and  testified  as  fol- 
lows: 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  and  I were  talking  in  the  room  above,  and 
we  didn’t  get,  through,  about  Roy  Jones’  place.  What  do  you  know  about 
that  place? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  We  had  reports  of  the  carryings  on  there,  -where 
colored  people  congregated. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  When  1 was  in  there,  there  w-as  a colored  band 
and  there  were  a couple  of  women  and  a couple  of  men  performers. 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  We  had  a report  on  that  place,  some  little  time 
ago,  that  it  was  a very  immoral  place.  I have  the  report  here.  They  have 
pasted  on  the  back  the  newspaper  report  showing  just  exactly  what  we 
found. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  do  you  think  about  putting  up  a hotel 
for  working  girls? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I think  a hotel  would  be  a very  good  thing,  but  1 
can’t  help  feeling  that  it  would  not  be  wise  to  have  the  people  for  whom  the 
girls  work  put  up  the  hotel.  I think  it  should  be  an  independent  place 
where  the  girls  could  go  and  board,  where  they  could  go  and  eet  proper 
recreation  and  all  the  things  that  go  with  a good  home,  but  have  it  done  by 
someone  outside  of  their  own  employers.  I feel  to  have  them  put  it  up 
would  be  rather  a mistake.  I think  it  is  very  important  that  it  should  be 
free  of  all  influence  that  might  be  exerted  upon  them. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Have  you  any  testimony  that  3'ou  think 
would  be  good  to  go  in  the  record  at  the  present  time? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I know  of  one  girl,  in  speaking  of  small  wages:  I 
seem  to  be  dwelling  on  that,  my  mind  seems  to  dwell  on  that  toda^^  A girl 
came  to  my  office  and  told  me  that  she  was  in  a very  bad  condition  physi- 
cally and  she  didn’t  know  what  to  do.  I took  her  to  a doctor  and  found 
that  she  needed  medical  attention.  I could  only  get  that  for  her  at  the 
County  Hospital;  she  was  inflicted  with  a venereal  disease.  She  did  not 
look  like  a girl  who  was  a street  .girl,  or  who  ever  could  be,  and  I talked  to 
her  and  she  told  me  that  she  had  been  getting  $6.00  a week  at  the  Boston 
Store  and  could  earn  no  more.  She  had  to  have  a pair  of  shoes.  She  had 
tried  to  save  her  money,  but  she  had  not  been  able  to  save  enough  to  get 
her  a pair  of  shoes,  and  in  her  extremitJ^  and  she  thought  that  she  would 
just  do  it,  just  for  once,  that  she  might  have  this  pair  of  shoes,  with  this 
result.  It  is  rare  and  an  extreme  case,  I think,  but  it  does  happen. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  became  of  her? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  She  is  all  right;  she  was  cured,  so  it  was  possible 
for  her  to  go  on  and  live.  Now,  we  see  that  she  is  getting  sufficient  monej'. 
I have  a little  fund  given  me  by  a man  of  this  town,  so  that  I can  loan 
money  to  these  girls  who  need  it.  This  man  gave  me  this  monej’-  to  use  so 
that  any  working  girl  might  be  able  to  borrow  money  without  interest. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Just  on  her  word? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Just  on  her  word,  j-es,  we  make  no  investigations 
in  these  cases,  because  in  many  cases  the  girls  do  not  like  to  be  investigated. 
I have  to  depend  on  my  own  judgment  and  my  knowledge  of  human  nature. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  jmu  have  them  make  a note? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  she  signs  a little  note  to  me. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  If  they  fail  to  pay  it  back  it  is  charged  to 
charity? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


467 


MRS.  BRITTAIN:  Yes,  but  they  do  pay  it  back. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  much  have  you  loaned? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  About  $200.00  to  girls. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  much  do  you  loan  to  a girl? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  It  all  depends.  This  fund  has  not  been  in  opera- 
hion  very  long.  For  instance,  I have  used  funds  of  my  own  and  at  times 
when  I have  not  had  it  I would  ask  some  woman  friend  of  mine  to  give  me 
$10.00,  or  $20.00,  but  this  fund  has  just  been  opened.  I began  the  first  oper- 
ation last  week.  A girl  came  to  me  to  my  office,  having  been  sent  there  by 
the  Mayor;  she  went  to  the  Mayor’s  office,  and  said  that  she  had  come  to 
Chicago  to  get  work  but  she  could  not  get  work,  and  she  was  without 
funds,  that  she  lived  in  Louisville,  and  that  $10.00  would  cover  her  real 
needs,  so  I sent  her  back  to  Louisville,  paid  her  way,  got  her  trunk  moved, 
and  gave  her  $3.00. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  She  has  paid  that  back? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  She  is  to  pay  it  back,  and  I know  that  she  will. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  If  it  gets  out  that  you  are  loaning  money  to 
working  girls  under  those  conditions,  will  there  be  a great  many  applica- 
tions? 

MRS.  BRITTAIN:  I am  not  afraid  of  applications.  I believe  if  the 
applicant  is  worthy  I will  have  no  trouble  in  getting  money  to  take  care  of 
it.  I am  willing  to  have  a great  many  applications.  1 may  be  extreme  in 
this  matter,  of  course,  I don’t  know,  but  I would  like  to  try  it  out. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  I think,  Mrs.  Brittain.  Thank 
you.  The  witnesses  who  have  not  yet  been  heard  will  report  here  at  10 
■o’clock  tomorrow  morning.  The  Committee  will  now  adjourn  until  mid- 
[’ night  in  the  Rockwood  room,  on  the  first  floor  of  this  hotel,  but  the  wit- 
1 1 nesses  subpoenaed  to  appear  today,  and  who  have  not  been  heard,  will  not 
1 be  called  upon  until  10  o’clock  tomorrow  morning,  when  they  will  present 
' themselves  in  this  room. 

I Whereupon  a recess  was  taken  by  the  .Committee. 


SESSION  XVII 


I The  Committee  meets  in  a midnight  session  to  interrogate 

/ witnesses  subpoenaed  directly  from  a notorious  cafe;  also  patrons, 

) entertainers  and  proprietors  of  fashionable  restaurants  in  the  busi- 
I ness  section.  Witnesses  questioned  about  entertainment  features 
? personally  witnessed  by  Senators  Beall  cmd  Tossey  of  the  Com- 

j mittee  and  described  in  the  testimony  of  investigators  in  the  Com- 

l|  mittee’s  employ.  Testimony  of: 

! r Jack  Carvin,  manager,  Roy  Jones’  cafe; 

' L ; 

H.  H.  Mueller,  traveling  salesman; 

M.  Blair  Coan,  chief  investigator  for  the  Committee; 

, “Natalie,”  professional  dancer; 

i Martin  Ferrari,  professional  dancer; 

Abe  Frank,  manager.  Rector’s  restaurant; 

H H , cabaret  performer; 

j E W , cabaret  performer; 

I Maude  J.  Josaphare,  investigator  for  the  Committee; 

I Charles  M.  Richter,  publisher; 

I O.  B.  Stimpson,  manager.  States  restaurant; 

Dora  Wilson,  professional  dancer; 
f George  H.  Wilson,  professional  dancer. 

I Chicago,  April  11,  1913,  12  :00  o’clock  Midnight, 

La  Salle  Hotel. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  notice,  all  members  being  pres- 
ent,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had: 

; Jack  Carvin’s  Testimony. 

JACK  CARVIN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being  first 
I duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Jack  Carvin. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  I work  for  Mr.  Roy  Jones. 

Q.  What  business  is  he  in?  A.  Running  a cafe  and  restaurant  on  21st 
and  Wabash. 

Q.  You  are  manager  of  that  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  go  to  work  in  the  evening?  A.  Why,  between 
eight  and  eight-thirty. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  this  evening?  A.  About  8:15. 

Q.  You  have  been  there  since  8:15?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Until  you  were  brought  down  here?  A.  Until  I was  subpoenaed. 
Q.  Is  that  a respectable  place?  A.  Absolutely,  so  far  as  I know  what 
respectability  applies  to ; it  is  the  same  as  any  other  place. 

Q.  Do  you  run  a cabaret  show?  A.  Yes,  sir;  from  8:15  until  one  o’clock 
every  night. 

I Q.  How  many  entertainers  do  you  employ?  A.  Ten;  all  colored. 

I Q.  How  many  men  and  how  many  women?  A.  Two  men  and  eight 

; women. 

I Q.  Can  you  furnish  the  Committee  with  a list  of  the  songs  sung  by  these 

: women  tonight?  A.  I could  furnish  some  of  them.  Everything  is  popular 

they  sing.  Every  show  that  comes  in  town,  the  music  from  those  shows  are 
sung. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  summoned  here  what  song  was  being  sung?  A. 
I Well,  I will  swear  I would  not  know. 


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Q.  Who  was  singing  at  that  time?  A.  Just  a minute,  I will  tell  you 
who  was  singing,  if  I remember  correctly  I think  there  was  one  of  the  songs 
from  the  Follies. 

Q.  One  of  the  songs  from  the  Follies?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I think  it  was,  “You 
Big  Blue-Eyed  Baby,”  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  About  that  time  was  there  a negro  woman  singing  alone?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Dancing  up  and  down  the  place  singing?  A.  Dancing. 

Q.  Yes,  and  wiggling?  A.  No,  not  wiggling,  she  might  have  been  dancing. 
They  all  dance  with  some  of  the  numbers  just  the  same  as  any  show.  There 
are  some  numbers  they  dance  with,  some  sing  straight  and  some  sing  ballets, 
and  some  sing  ragtime. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Carvin,  was  the  song  sung  at  that  time  an  obscene  song?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  a passage  in  there  that  no  man  would  permit  in  any  re- 
spectable place?  A.  I don’t  believe  so. 

Q.  Were  these  words  used?  (Chairman  whispers  words  to  witness).  A. 
Absolutely  not. 

Q.  You  swear  to  that  under  oath?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Those  words  were  not  used?  A.  If  the  words  are  in  that  song,  they 
might  use  them,  but  I don’t  believe  there  is  ever  a song  with  those  words  in 
there ; they  were  not  sung  in  our  place. 

Q.  You  didn’t  hear  those  words  used  tonight?  A.  No,  I didn’t. 

Q.  Or  any  words  of  that  nature?  A.  No,  sir,  not  that  I can  recollect. 

Q.  By  the  way,  Mr.  Carvin,  did  you  meet  the  investigator  of  this  Com- 
mittee in  your  place  a few  days  ago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  that  investigator  that  you  had  no  respect  for  the  State  of 
Illinois?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  this  Committee  could  go  and  jump  in  the  lake?  A.  This  inves- 
tigator came  and  asked  me  to  serve  a subpoenae  for  him  and  I asked  him 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  remember  seeing  me  in  your  place?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  remember  what  they  were  doing  when  I was  in  there;  do  you 
know  where  I was  sitting?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  they  were  doing  on  the  floor,  with  the  woman  go- 
ing up  and  down  with  her  clothes  up  around  her  waist  and  the  fellow  on  the 
floor  looking  up  under  her  clothes?  I saw  that  in  3-our  place;  j'ou  remember 
that,  don’t  you?  A.  I remember  absolutely. 

Q.  You  remember  tonight  you  had  a negro  playing  a piano?  A.  They 
were  dancing. 

Q.  And  a negress  was  going  up  and  down,  with  her  clothes  up  to  her 
waist?  A.  We  don’t  allow  anything  like  that.  If  you  should  naturally  dance 
with  a dress  on,  your  dress  will  naturally  go  up  and  down. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Senator  Waage,  will  you  inform  this  Committee, 
as  a member  of  the  State  Senate,  what  power  we  have  to  punish  this  man  for 
perjury. 

SENATOR  WAAGE ; I would  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  I would  say  this,  Mr. 
Chairman,  that  the  Committee  would  not  have  the  power  to  imprison  a witness 
at  this  time.  The  Committee,  however,  could  at  once,  if  necessar}-,  if  known 
to  the  defendant,  call  the  attention  of  the  police  to  the  statement  and  have  him 
now  apprehended  for  committing  a perjury  in  the  presence  of  the  Committee, 
and  upon  such  statement  the  police  will  undoubtedly  apprehend  the  prisoner  on 
a charge  of  perjury.  It  would  be  for  violating  his  oath  in  the  presence  of  this 
Committee  and  known  to  this  Committee. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Were  you  present,  Senator  Tossey,  when  the 
things  spoken  of  by  Senator  Beall  were  performed? 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Was  this  gentleman  present  at  the  time? 
(Indicating  the  witness.) 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  I think  he  was;  I think  he  came  and  sat  at  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


471 


table  just  a few  moments  after  we  got  there.  (To  witness)  I think  I was 
introduced  to  you. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Was  this  gentleman  present  at  the  time? 

THE  WITNESS:  Yes,  I was  there. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Let  me  call  your  attention  to  a thing:  don’t  you 
remember  that  after  we  got  there  a woman  walked  up  and  down  the  floor  with 
her  clothes  around  her  waist  and  a fellow  with  a straw  hat  on  got  down  on 
his  stomach  on  the  floor  and  looked  up  under  her  dress;  do  you  remember  that? 
A.  I remember  very  distinctly;  there  is  a dance 

Q.  She  was  walking  up  and  down  the  floor  and  every  person  in  the  saloon 
iin  front  of  her  saw  her?  A.  Yes,  but  I didn’t  see  that  dance. 

Q.  And  did  you  know  that  she  was  exposing  herself  to  the  people  in  the 
room?  A.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  term  “herself?” 

Q.  Well,  a woman  pulling  her  clothes  up  around  her  waist,  I don’t  know 
what  you  would  call  it.  A.  When  they  dance  they  might  grab  their  skirts  and 
hold  them  up  a little. 

Q.  She  was  doing  what  we  call  the  “hootchy-kootchy,”  she  was  swinging 
her  back  and  her  hips  and  throwing  her  dress  up  and  going  back  and  forward 
and  back  again  with  her  hips,  do  you  remember  that  thing?  A.  Yes,  I re- 
member the  dance  very  distinctly. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  call  that  a dance!  Did  you  see  anybody  looking  up  under 
her  skirts?  A.  I don’t  believe  I ever  saw  the  man  lying  down  on  the  floor. 
If  he  did  that,  this  is  something  I didn’t  know. 

Q.  I saw  him  do  it.  A.  Yes.  I don’t  recall  it;  it  might;  you  know  such 
a thing  could  happen.  It  might  even  be  those  words  were  in  the  song. 

Mrs.  J.  D.  T ’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  J.  D.  T , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 

duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  J.  D.  T . 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  I live  in  Peoria,  Illinois. 

Q.  You  are  married?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Live  with  your  husband?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  your  husband  with  you  tonight?  A.  No. 

Q.  Where  is  he,  in  Peoria?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  business  is  he  in?  A.  He  is  in  the  grocery  business. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  at  Roy  Jones’  place  tonight;  were  you  there? 
A.  Yes,  I was  there. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  there?  A.  About  ten  minutes. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  there?  A.  I was  sight-seeing. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  sights  worth  while  there?  A.  Well,  let  me  see,  there 
was  something  unusual  by  a colored  girl ; I seen  that. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Who  was  with  you?  A.  My  brother. 

Q.  Where  from?  A.  From  Springfield,  Illinois. 

Q.  Was  there  a negro  woman  singing  there?  A.  Yes,  there  were  several, 
three  or  four. 

Q.  How  would  you  describe  the  dance  that  she  was  going  through  with? 
A.  Oh,  I don’t  really  know  what  the  dances  are.  She  did  some  sort  of  steps, 
I suppose  you  call  it,  something  on  the  bear  dance  order. 

Q.  Did  she  have  her  dress  pulled  up?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  What  kind  of  a dance  was  it?  A.  I really 
didn’t  notice  the  dance.  ' 

Q.  Didn’t  you  listen  to  the  song  that  she  was  singing?  A.  I tried  to, 
but  I didn’t  know  the  song  at  all. 

Q.  You  didn’t  exactly  recognize  the  words?  A.  No,  I didn’t  get  the  song. 

Q.  Have  you  a daughter.  Madam?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  is  she?  A.  Ten  years  old. 


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Q.  When  she  is  older,  would  you  like  to  take  her  to  Roy  Jones’  place? 
A.  No,  I would  not. 

Q.  You  believe  that  your  daughter  would  have  a better  chance  to  lead  a 
good  life  if  there  weren’t  such  places  as  Roy  Jones  in  existence?  A.  Well, 
no,  because  I don’t  think  she  will  ever  come  in  contact  with  them.  I am  sure 
she  won’t. 

Q.  Were  there  some  young  girls  there?  A.  I don’t  know,  there  were 
three  or  four  young  women  there  at  the  other  tables,  I couldn’t  say  as  to  the 
age;  we  were  just  there,  we  had  just  gotten  in. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  are  a married  woman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a very  nice  place  to  be?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  knew  where  you  were  going?  A.  No. 

Q.  Were  you  on  a visit  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A stranger  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  your  brother  took  you  in  here?  A.  Yes;  he  doesn’t 
know  anything  about  it 

Q.  He  is  a stranger  too?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  think  that  kind  of  a dance  that  they  had  on  the  floor  there 
was  very  suggestive?  A.  Not  very  suggestive.  I have  been  to  see  Gertrude 
Hoffman. 

Q.  Were  you  drinking  in  this  saloon?  A.  Yes,  I had  just  got  a glass  of 
beer;  I hadn’t  drunk  it. 

Q.  Were  most  of  the  people  in  there  intoxicated?  A.  I could  not  say, 
because  I was  not  in  there  long  enough  to  know. 

L G ’s  Testimony. 

L G — , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 

duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  L G . 

Q.  And  your  residence?  A.  Peoria,  Illinois. 

Q.  Are  you  married.  A.  Yes,  sir.  My  husband  is  dead. 

Q.  When  did  you  arrive  in  Chicago?  A.  About  eight  weeks  ago. 

Q.  Where  are  you  living  m Chicago?  A.  Ellis  avenue. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  in  this  place  tonight,  Roy  Jones’  place?  A.  I 
don’t  think  we  were  in  there  but  ten  minutes. 

Q.  You  were  with  this  other  womar*who  testified?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  known  her  at  Peoria?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  there  on  a slumming  party?  A.  No,  not  exactly  a slum- 
ming party;  we  had  been  to  one  cafe  before  that  for  dinner  and  we  just  en- 
tered there ; we  had  heard  of  the  place  before,  and  just  got  off  of  the  car  and 
went  in. 

Q.  You  had  heard  of  it  favorably?  A.  Well,  we  just  heard  it  was  a 
sight-seeing  place  to  go  for  amusement. 

Q.  Do  you  care  to  go  there  again?  A.  Why,  hardly  now;  I think  I care 
very  little  for  Chicago,  in  fact. 

Q.  What  happened  during  the  ten  or  fifteen  minutes  that  you  were  at  Roy 
Jones’  tonight?  A.  I didn’t  see  any  dancing  or  anything.  The  first  thing  I 
knew  a gentleman  stepped  up  to  me  and  said,  “You  will  have  to  come  with  me 
down  to  the  LaSalle  Hotel.”  I thought  he  was  insulting  me.  I had  heard  of 
such  things  as  women  being  taken  away;  I had  heard  of  such  things  being  done 
in  Chicago,  of  men  picking  you  up,  and  I naturally  thought  this  was  possibly 
one  of  them;  I thought  the  vice  was  after  me. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  singing  there  tonight?  A.  I heard,  “Here  Comes 
My  Daughter.”  I don’t  think  there  w^as  anything  suggestive  in  that.  I just 
heard  the  music;  I could  not  tell  you  a word  of  the  song. 

THE  WITNESS:  (Referring  to  a newspaper  photographer  who  had  just 
taken  a picture  of  witness  on  the  stand.)  That  is  not  right;  I think  that’s  a 
mean  trick. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Don’t  you  be  afraid.  Madam,  there  won’t  be  any 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


473 


i ! more  of  it  here  tonight.  That  was  no  place  for  you  to  be,  because  I have  been 
j I there  myself.  A.  We  knew  nothing  about  it. 

I I SENATOR  BEALL : It  was  no  place  for  a lady  to  be.  I believe  you  to 
L ■ be  innocent  in  the  matter,  but  this  was  no  place  for  you  to  be.  A.  We  didn’t 
r know,  we  were  just  told  that  the  place  was  a sight-seeing  place. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : Will  the  photographer  who  took  that  photograph 

ii  kindly  destroy  the  plate? 

THE  PHOTOGRAPHER:  (Taking  plate  out  of  camera  and  handing 
1;  same  to  witness.)  Yes,  sir. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  I am  satisfied  that  these  two  young  women  were 
*t  there,  not  knowing  the  exact  nature  of  the  place,  and  the  Committee  has  no 
desire  to  subject  them  to  unnecessary  publicity  or  annoyance. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  We  don’t  wish  to  injure  any  of  them. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : The  names  given  are  genuine,  and  we  wish  that 
the  press  would  not  use  them. 

FIRST  WITNESS ; I have  been  connected  with  social  work  in  Peoria  for 

. , several  years  back,  more  or  less 

SENATOR  BEALL ; Oh,  were  you? 

MRS.  FIRST  WITNESS:  Yes.  What  may  I tell  them  when  I 
. return. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Just  tell  them  that  you  were  caught  out  and  couldn’t 
f get  back. 

1 H.  H.  Mueller’s  Testimony. 

' H.  H.  MUELLER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
! duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Have  you  been  sworn?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  live  in  Chicago?  A.  No,  sir.  I am  a traveling  man,  I make 
my  residence  in  Springfield  and  Peoria,  mostly  in  Springfield. 

Q.  Where  is  your  regular  home?  A.  In  Indianapolis. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live  in  Springfield?  A.  The  Leland  Hotel. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  been  at  Roy  Jones’  before  tonight?  A.  Never. 

I Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  go  there?  A.  I had  come  to  Chicago  and 
I had  been  here  about — I got  in  here  at  5 ;30  tonight,  and  we  were  around  to  the 
cafes,  had  been  down  to  one  of  the  cafes  in  town  for  lunch,  and  I suggested 

|j  that  we  go  to  that  place,  Roy  Jones.  It  was  more  of  a side  proposition  than 

i|  anything  else.  I was  in  company  with  the  two  ladies,  and  they  felt  like  they 

II'  were  being  protected  while  going  there;  there  was  nobody  else  in  the  com- 

" pany  at  all. 

Q.  You  went  there  because  you  understood  it  was  one  of  the  places  in 
t Chicago  to  see  the  sights?  A.  I did. 

j Q.  You  have  heard  of  it  before  as  one  of  the  real  sights  in  that  district? 
,!  A.  Yes,  sir. 

|j 

I Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  place,  do  you  think  there  are  any  sights 
t worth  seeing  there?  A.  Well,  it  is  an  education — an  education  on  things  to 
'J  keep  away  from. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  Now,  I think  you  were  a good,  clean-cut  fellow.  I 
like  the  way  you  went  to  the  defense  of  the  women  when  the  pictures  were 
being  taken.  What  this  Committee  is  trying  to  do  is  to  defend  the  womanhood 
of  this  state,  just  as  you  went  to  protect  your  friend  when  you  thought  she 
was  getting  undesirable  publicity  through  no  fault  of  her  own,  and  I want  you 
to  co-operate  with  us  and  tell  us  exactly  what  you  saw  there  tonight.  A.  I 

(don’t  suppose  I was  there  more  than  eight  minutes;  we  were  just  seated, 
and  we  were  in  the  rear  of  the  cafe,  and  the  music  was  going  on  in  front. 
In  fact,  we  were  engaged  in  a personal  conversation  that  didn’t  pertain  to 

I the  cafe  in  any  way,  and  I could  not  say  what  was  going  on. 

Q.  Was  most  of  the  people  around  there  drinking?  A.  I believe  they 
were. 

I Q.  Were  any  of  them  intoxicated?  A.  Pretty  well  tagged;  I was  not 
( paying  hardly  enough  attention  to  know,  but  I suppose  they  were. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Everybody  was  feeling  pretty  good?  A.  Pretty  good,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  girls  around  there  soliciting?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  notice  any  girls  going  from  one  table  to  another  and  call- 
ing men  over  to  them.  A.  No,  sir,  I was  not  looking  for  it.  I wasn’t  paying 
attention  to  any  table  except  our  own. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Did  you  see  any  immoral  dances  there?  A.  That 
depends  on  what  you  call  immoral. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-five. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  on  the  road?  A.  Four  years. 

Q.  You  have  been  around  right  smart?  A.  I have  been  in  San  Fran- 
cisco, been  in  Seattle  during  the  time  it  was  wide  open. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  When  you  come  to  Chicago  again  forget  that  there 
is  any  such  a place  as  Roy  Jones  in  Chicago.  A.  I have  been  here  for  a 
month  or  so,  and  this  is  the  first  time  I think  I have  exactly  what  you  might 
say  been  in  such  a place. 

Jack  Garvin’s  Testimony  Continued. 

JACK  CARVIN,  being  recalled  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Jack  Carvin. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Thirty-one  years  old  the  18th  da}'  of  April. 

Q.  You  have  been  down  at  Roy  Jones  since  the  last  of  June?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  an  interest  in  the  business?  A.  Absolutely  none  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  tried  to  get  a better  job?  A.  I believe  I have. 

Q.  In  any  other  kind  of  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  down  in  the  so-called  red-light  district,  isn’t  it?  A.  It  is 
supposed  to  be,  yes. 

Q.  Is  the  district  closed  now?  A.  Supposed  to  be. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  closed?  A.  So  far  as  I know. 

Q.  How  has  business  been  in  your  place  since  they  closed  the  district? 
A.  I don’t  believe  it  has  affected  our  business  at  all.  Our  patrons  didn’t  come 
from  that  district. 

Q.  The  same  kind  of  patrons  come  in  your  place  now  the  same  as  tlrey 
did  before?  A.  Just  the  same  kind,  there  is  not  any  difference. 

Q.  Then  the  closing  of  the  district  didn’t  affect  your  business  in  the  least? 
A.  It  has  not  hurt  our  business. 

Q.  What  kind  of  people  go  to  your  place?  A.  People  that  want  to  come 
around  there  and  have  a little  entertainment  or  want  to  see  a cabaret  show,  or 
want  to  seek  a little  diversion,  they  come  frequently  to  those  places,  the  same 
as  to  any  of  the  rest  of  the  places  that  put  on  cabaret  shows. 

Q.  Do  you  have  many  women  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  men  come  in  there  alone?  A.  Oh,  yes,  hundreds  of  them,  abso- 
lutely alone. 

Q.  Do  they  meet  girls  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  saw  a girl  meet  a man  there?  A.  I could  not  say  that; 
yes,  by  appointment  if  somebody  happened  to  call  them  up. 

Q.  You  don’t  have  any  solicitors  around  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  solicitors  around  there?  A.  No,  sir,  not  to 
my  knowledge,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  “cadets”  in  there?  A.  Well,  that  is  rather  a 
leading  question.  I suppose  they  frequent  every  place ; it  is  a public  place  and 
they  go  every  place  there  is,  I suppose. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  in  your  place?  A.  I couldn’t  say  that,  I didn’t 
know  what  they  were.  You  don’t  ask  anyone  what  their  business  is  as  a rule. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


475 


unless  you  get  acquainted  with  them.  If  I meet  anyone,  should  get  acquainted 
with  him,  it  is  not  customary  to  ask  a man  what  his  business  is  unless  you  are 
acquainted  with  him,  is  it? 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  man  get  down  on  the  floor  and  look  up  under 
a woman’s  dress  in  your  place?  A.  Outside  of  the  man  in  that  dance 
where  he  lays  down  on  the  floor 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that.  A.  As  the  Senator  told  you. 

Q.  You  denied  that.  A.  Denied  what?  He  asked  me  if  I saw  it.  I 
said,  yes,  I saw  him  lay  down  on  the  floor,  but  I didn’t  see  him  look  under 
any  dress. 

Q.  What  was  he  doing  on  the  floor?  A.  Laying  down  flat  on  the  floor. 

Q.  What  was  he  down  there  for?  A.  I don’t  know;  that  girl  was  five 
or  ten  feet  away  from  him.  It  was  in  the  way  the  song  was  to  be  acted. 

Q.  What  did  he  do?  A.  He  threw  himself  onto  the  floor. 

Q.  And  looked  at  the  ceiling?  A.  No,  he  was  looking  up  that  way;  I 
suppose  he  was  looking  at  her. 

Q.  (To  Senator  Beall)  : What  was  he  doing  when  he  was  down  there, 
Senator  ? 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Looking  under  the  woman’s  clothes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I don’t  know  but  that  there  is  only  one  thing 
to  do,  and  that  is  to  make  a request  of  the  Mayor  to  close  this  place. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  I believe  the  fellow  tried  to  do  all  right.  Cut  out 
that  part  of  the  business  and  keep  little  girls  out  of  there.  There  are  little  girls 
in  there  fifteen  and  sixteen  years  of  age  sitting  around  at  the  table.  You  have 
them  there,  don’t  you?  You  have  young  girls  coming  in  occasionally  with  the 
fellows,  girls  fifteen  or  sixteen  years  old,  I daresay  they  are.  A.  I don’t  sup- 
pose they  ever  come  in  that  young. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  you  can  cut  out  that  trick  show  and  make  it  nicer ; 
you  wouldn’t  want  to  take  your  sister  there,  would  you?  A.  I would  not  take 
my  sister  in  the  locality,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  you  would  not  want  your  sister  to  see  what  you  have  in  your 
place?  A.  I don’t  think  there  is  anything  wrong  about  it,  but  I would  not  like 
to  bring  her  in  the  locality. 

M.  Blair  Coan’s  Testimony. 

M.  BLAIR  COAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  M.  Blair  Coan. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Roy  Jones’  place  tonight?  A.  I was. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  song  sung?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  what  words  were  used  in  these  songs?  A. 

1 only  heard  one  song  that  was  sung  by  a negro  girl. 

Q.  What  did  she  say?  A.  “Put ; put  — = .’’  She 

was  doing  a dance;  that  was  the  chorus;  she  was  doing  a contortion  and 
muscle  dance. 

_ Q.  Was  anybody  else  with  you  at  the  time?  A.  Mr.  Scouten  and  two 
policemen. 

Q.  They  heard  that?  A.  They  all  heard  it. 

Q.  Do  you  make  that  statement  under  oath,  Mr.  Coan?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Realizing  that  if  you  state  an  untruth  you  are  liable  for  perjury?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

(Witness  excused.) 

John  J.  Harding’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  J.  HARDING,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows ; 

Q.  You  work  for  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  an  officer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Roy  Jones’  place  tonight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


476  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Did  you  hear  any  singing  down  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  words  did  you  hear  sung?  A.  Why,  a colored  lady  was  singing, 
‘‘Put 

Q.  You  heard  that?  A.  I heard  it. 

Q.  You  make  that  statement  as  a police  ofhcer,  knowing  that  if  you 
tell  an  untruth  you  are  liable  for  prosecution  for  perjury?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

M.  J.  Farley’s  Testimony. 

M.  J.  FARLEY,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  and  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Michael  J.  Farley. 

Q.  You  are  a police  officer  of  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Roy  Jones’  place  tonight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  singing  there?  A.  Yes;  there  w^as  a colored 
lady  singing  and  dancing  on  the  floor. 

Q.  What  did  she  say?  A.  “Put  ,’’  and  w'altzing 

around. 

Q.  You  make  that  statement,  officer,  knowing  that  if  it  be  untrue  you 
are  liable  to  a charge  of  perjury?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Was  the  woman  wffio  was  singing  this  piece  a 
colored  woman,  a short,  fat  woman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  she  have  her  clothes  up?  I have  been  there  myself,  and  that 
is  the  reason  I ask  it.  He  denied  it.  A.  She  had  a dark  suit  and  was 
holding  her  skirts  up. 

(Witness  excused.) 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Senator  Tossey  has  moved  that  this  Com- 
mittee use  all  of  its  influence  to  have  this  place  closed;  that  we  wait 
upon  the  Mayor  of  Chicago  and  present  to  him  the  evidence  heard  here 
tonight  and  request  that  he  act  as  his  best  judgment  wall  dictate  in  the 
matter.  The  question  is  on  the  adoption  of  the  motion.  Those  in  favor 
will  say  aye. 

Whereupon  the  motion  w'as  put  by  the  Chairman  and  the  same  was 
unanimously  carried. 

“Natalie’s”  Testimony. 

“NATALIE,”  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Natalie. 

Q.  Is  that  your  first  or  your  last  name?  A.  That  is  m3^  first  name. 
That  is  the  name  I go  by. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  a last  name?  A.  Maybe. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Dancer. 

Q.  Do  you  dance  at  cabaret  shows?  A.  Yes,  just  now. 

Q.  Where  were  you  dancing  tonight?  A.  At  Rector’s. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  dancing  at  Rector’s?  A.  A week. 

Q.  Where  were  you  dancing  before?  A.  In  New  \ ork. 

Q.  At  what  place  in  New  York?  A.  Wallace’s. 

Q.  How  many  times  a night  do  you  go  on  at  Rector’s?  A.  Once. 

Q.  And  for  how  long?  A.  Three  minutes. 

Q.  What  do  you  dance  during  that  three  minutes?  A.  Tango  or 
turkey  trot. 

Q.  You  don’t  object  to  publicitj',  do  j'ou?  A.  No,  no;  indeed  no. 

Q.  W^hen  you  dance  do  >'ou  throw  your  clothes  around  a great  deal? 

A.  No,  I never  touch  mj'  clothes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


477 


Q.  Do  you  dance  the  turkey  trot  exactly  like  every  other  person 
dances  it?  A.  No,  we  dance  it  better. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  a perfectly  proper  dance?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I cer- 
tainly do. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  dancing?  A.  Oh,  about  five  years. 

Q.  You  begun  when  you  were  fourteen?  A.  Yes,  when  I was 
thirteen. 

Q.  What  did  they  pay  you  for  dancing  that  dance  there?  A.  Oh, 
well,  I don’t  care  to  tell  you:  this  is  my  manager,  if  he  wants  to  tell  you, 
all  right. 

I'  SENATOR  BEALL:  You  are  the  boss,  aren’t  you?  A.  What? 

Q.  You  are  his  boss?  A.  Oh,  no;  he  is  my  boss. 

Q.  Then  what  do  you  make  him  stand  around  for?  A.  To  protect 
' me.  I I 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  going  to  protect  you,  don’t  you  be 
alarmed  about  that.  The  girl  is  all  right.  She  makes  her  living  that 
I way,  don’t  you?  You  make  your  living  through  dancing  three  minutes 
] every  night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  Do  you  take  part  in  the  general  free-for-all  dance  at  Rector’s 
beginning  at  about  11:30  o’clock?  A.  If  I dance  there? 

Q.  In  the  free-for-all.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  dance  generally  starts  about  11:30  o’clock,  does  it?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  lasts  how  late?  A.  Well,  to  about  1 o’clock. 

Q.  Your  dance  is  put  on  just  before  the  general  dance  starts?  A. 
Yes,  I believe  so. 

Q.  They  try  as  best  they  can  to  imitate  or  dance  as  you  do?  A. 
Oh,  no,  no;  they  all  have  their  own  style  of  dancing:  just  a turkey  trot 
and  two-step  and  waltz,  that  is  all. 

Q.  How  many  people  have  you  seen  dancing  there  at  one  time?  A. 
Oh,  about  ten  couples. 

Q.  Anybody  who  is  a guest  there,  who  eats  down  there  or  drinks 
down  there  has  the  privilege  of  dancing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever,  madam,  visited  any  of  these  so-called  cheap  dance 
n halls  where  w'orking  girls  go  in  for  5 and  10  cents?  A.  No,  I have  never 
been  in  a place  like  that.  I don’t  even  know  where  they  are.  I know 
: they  have  cheap  d«,nces,  but  I never  heard  of  working  girls’  dances. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  don’t  give  dancing  lessons?  A.  No'. 

Martin  Ferrari’s  Testimony. 

MARTIN  FERRARI,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  be- 
ing first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Martin  Ferrari. 

Q.  Are  you  related  to  this  young  woman?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  her?  A.  About  two  years. 

Q.  Where  is  your  home?  A.  My  home  at  present  is  in  Chicago. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  playing  at  Rector’s?  A.  I have  been 

playing  at  Rector’s  since  last  Wednesday. 

Q.  Do  you  dance  with  this  young  woman?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a dance  is  it?  A.  It  is  a good  dance,  a proper 
dance. 

Q.  You  throw  your  arm  about  her?  A.  Yes,  I do. 

Q.  Is  it  what  is  commonly  known  as  a muscle  dance?  A.  It  is  not. 

Q.  What  is  a muscle  dance?  A.  A muscle  dance  is  an  individual 

dance  that  has  got  to  be  performed  by  an  individual. 


478 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Now,  as  a matter  of  fact,  don’t  you  wrap  yourself  up  with  this 
young  woman  almost  as  though  you  were  one  and  glide  together?  A. 
At  times  we  do,  but  only  at  certain  parts  of  our  dancing.  We  have  done 
certain  things,  but  I do  not  consider  that  they  are  bad,  because  I object 
to  anything  that  is  licentious.  I don’t  approve  of  it.  I am  a dancing 
teacher  myself,  and  I don’t  see  anything  good  in  indecent  dancing. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  these  modern  dances?  A.  It  is  only  a 
passing  fad. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  dances  such  as  you  perform, 
and  such  as  are  witnessed  in  our  higher-priced  restaurants,  have  any  effect 
on  the  dances  of  the  poor  class  of  people  who  frequent  these  so-called 
vicious  dance  halls?  A.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  define  the  effect  they  have, 
because  it  makes  lots  of  difference.  What  might  appeal  to  one  in  one 
sense  might  not  appeal  to  one  in  another.  It  is  the  difference  in  tempera- 
ments; temperaments  are  different,  and  a dance  might  appeal  in  one  way 
to  a person  of  a certain  temperament,  whereas  to  a person  with  a dif- 
ferent temperament  it  might  appeal  in  an  entirely  different  way.  It  all 
depends  on  the  person  and  on  their  temperament. 

Q.  Is  it  your  conclusion,  then,  that  whereas  you  possess  an  artistic 
temperament  and  view  matters  from  an  artistic  standpoint,  there  are 
people  of  a different  kind  of  temperament  who  would  view'  the  same 
thing  from  a different  standpoint,  and  where  you  would  see  art  they 
would  see  vice?  A.  Yes,  that  is  my  understanding.  I think  that  the 
dances  in  themselves  originally  are  an  incentive  to  certain  emotions,  and 
you  can’t  get  away  from  the  fact  that  we  are  all  human,  and  we  naturally 
have  our  inclinations.  If  we  feel  like  dancing,  we  dance,  that  is  natural. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  think  that  a restaurant  is  a proper 
place  for  dancing?  A.  Any  public  place,  either  a restaurant  or  any  other 

place  of  public  gathering  is  appropriate  for  dancing,  more  so  than  any 

other  place. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  the  stage  is  the  proper  place?  A.  Oh,  yes;  the 

stage  is  also  proper.  So  far  as  that  is  concerned,  I prefer  to  work  on  the 

stage;  it  lends  more  dignity  to  it.  After  all,  it  is  the  public  that  creates 
the  demand;  if  it  w'as  not,  the  dance  would  not  be  here. 

Q.  In  other  W'ords,  your  philosophy  is  that  whatever  the  public 
wants  it  ought  to  have?  A.  If  it  is  the  majority,  let  them  have  it. 

Q.  You  think  that  the  dances  that  you  are  giving  nightly  at  Rector’s 
are  entirely  decent?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I do.  It  is  my  business,  and  I want 
to  eliminate  everything  that  is  indecent.  We  aim  to  give  a dance  that  is 
apart  from  anything  that  is  in  existence  today.  It  is  really  nothing  but  a 
little  incidental  exhibition  of  movement  that  is  positively  harmless.  My 
real  vocation  is  specialty  dancing. 

Q.  You  think  the  kind  of  dances  you  are  doing  now  will  last  very 
long,  do  you?  A.  No;  it  will  soon  pass  aw'ay. 

Abe  Frank’s  Testimony. 

ABE  FRANK,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Abraham  Erank. 
Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manager  at  Rector’s,  and  the  North 
American  restaurants. 

Q.  You  were  present  when  this  young  woman  and  this  young  gentle- 
man were  dancing  there  tonight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  objectionable  to  that  dance,  Mr.  Frank?  A. 
Not  in  the  least. 

Q.  Following  that  dance,  you  have  a general  dance  for  your  patrons? 
A.  We  have  one  that  starts  at  the  last  minute,  yes. 

Q.  How  do  you  manage  that  general  dance?  A.  Just  simply  allow 
the  public  to  indulge  in  dancing. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


479 


Q.  Do  you  clear  away  some  of  the  tables?  A.  We  have  a small 
ipace  assigned  for  that  purpose,  the  same  as  in  anything  else. 

Q.  How  many  people  generally  in  that  dance?  A.  So  far  there 
las  not  been  over  fifteen  to  twenty  couples. 

Q.  Is  the  fad  growing?  A.  Well,  the  only  reason  we  started  it,  it 
vas  on  account  of  the  demand  of  my  patrons.  The  very  best  class  of 
)eople  we  cater  to,  and  the  very  best  class  of  people  in  Chicago  asked  me 
rom  time  to  time,  asked  why  we  didn’t  start  dancing  the  way  they  do  in 
^ew  York.  I hesitated  about  doing  it  until  I made  an  investigation  and 
bund  that  the  style  of  dancing  they  call  the  turkey  trot  or  tango  was 
prevalent  in  all  the  best  homes  and  clubs  in  the  city.  The  South  Shore 
Country  Club  and  all  those  places  allow  these  dances  regularly;  they  hold 
::hese  dances  regularly.  I see  no  objection  to  holding  them  in  a restaurant, 
if  they  can  be  held  in  the  best  homes  and  clubs  in  the  city,  I don’t  see 

ivhat  objection  there  can  be  to  holding  them  in  a restaurant. 

Q.  The  idea  came  originally  from  New  York?  A.  Well,  it  was 
suggested  to  me  by  all  of  my  patrons,  the  very  best  class  of  patrons  in 
ny  place,  which  I consider  the  best  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Did  that  originate  in  New  York,  or  did  New  York  take  it  from 
some  European  city?  A.  I could  not  say.  I imagine  it  may  have  come 

from  Europe,  because  it  is  generally  prevalent,  as  I understand  it,  in 

European  countries. 

Q.  What  dances  do  they  dance  at  your  place?  A.  They  call  it  the 
curkey  trot,  the  tango,  two-step  and  waltzes,  that  is  as  I understand  it. 
Different  people  have  different  ways  of  dancing;  that  is,  the  steps  are 
different. 

Q.  Have  you  anyone  to  regulate  the  dancing  at  your  place?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Who?  A.  I have  a man  on  the  floor  there  that  is  familiar  with 
the  style  of  dances,  and  I am  there  myself.  I am  there  always.  We  are 
there  to  see,  and  any  conduct  that  is  not  just  right  we  would  not  permit 
it;  people  have  to  dance  in  the  proper  manner. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  have  had  dancing  at  your  place,  have  you 
stopped  anyone  from  dancing  because  of  objectionable  steps?  A.  No, 
there  has  not  been  anything  objectionable. 

Q.  What  would  you  consider  to  be  the  bounds  of  decency  in  a dance? 
A..  People  that  would  conduct  themselves,  would  embrace  or  annoy  other 
people  by  bumping  into  them,  or  anything  of  that  sort,  we  would  stop 
them,  or  if  a person  was  not  well  behaved  we  would  stop  them  in  a 
moment. 

Q.  If  a man  or  woman  had  been  drinking  too  much,  you  would  not 
permit  them  to  dance?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  patrons  of  Rector’s  have  drinks  served  to  them  before 
and  between  dances?  A.  No,  we  have  very  little  trouble  with  that  class 
af  people.  We  don’t  sell  drinks  to  anybody  that  shows  signs  of  intoxica- 
tion. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  on  an  excursion  steamer  running  over  to 
Michigan?  A.  Well,  it  is  five  years  since  I have  been  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  kind  of  dances  they  have  on  those  boats? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  Five  or  six  years  ago  there  was  dancing  that  seemed  to  me 
aught  to  have  been  stopped.  There  were  little,  young  people  that  were 
lancing  who  would  not  be  permitted  in  our  place  to  dance.  It  is  a different 
;lass  of  people  we  have  in  my  place. 

Q.  That  is  the  point  I have  in  mind.  An  earnest  woman  was  before 
IS  today  and  testified  that  many  girls  were  ruined  for  life  at  vicious  dance 
rails.  We  have  met  tonight  in  an  effort  to  ascertain  the  root,  or  the 
nspiration,  of  this  evil  complained  of.  You  describe  your  patrons  as  the 
‘best  people  of  the  City  of  Chicago.”  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that 
'the  actions  of  those  persons  form  a pattern  for  some  of  our  working  boys 
ind  girls;  that  the  latter  are  likely  to  say,  “We  are  doing  nothing  harmful 
rere,  because  if  they  can  do  it  at  Rector’s,  why  can’t  we  do  it,”  and  that 
;o  that  extent  there  is  some  connection  between  the  dances  at  Rector’s 
md  the  dances  at  places  you  admit  are  not  proper?  A.  We  do  not  give 


480 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


improper  dances.  We  would  not  give  an  improper  dance  any  more  than 
you  would  permit  it  in  your  home. 

Q.  You  do  it  because  it  is  good  business?  A.  Yes,  but  we  would 
not  allow  anything  improper,  because  it  would  ruin  our  business  if  we  did. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  think  that  a dance  that  is  danced  in 
your  place  and  is  considered  perfectly  proper,  if  danced  in  one  of  these 
so-called  dance  halls,  would  be  considered  indecent  there?  A.  The  dance 
itself  is  perfectly  decent.  It  is  the  kind  of  people  that  they  permit  to 
dance  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  kind  of  people  has  something  to  do  with  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I certainly  do.  The  dance  is  decent. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  About  how  many  people  eat  at  your  place 
a day?  A.  O,  possibly  2,000. 

Q.  You  have  a right  smart  amount  at  stake?  A.  Oh,  yes;  a good 
deal:  we  could  not  afford  to  do  anything  at  Rector’s  that  would  deteriorate 
the  standard.  We  cater  to  the  best  people  in  Chicago  only.-  Any  place 
of  the  character  of  Rector’s  could  not  afford  to  allow  anything  like  that: 
if  they  did,  it  would  ruin  their  business  entirely.  We  would  not  permit 
anything  but  a first-class  dance  to  go  on  the  floor. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  that  dance  we  have  been  discussing  at  your 
place  went  very  much  to  the  extreme?  A.  Absolutely  not;  it  is  a great 
deal  more  decent  than  you  can  see  in  one  of  the  best  theatres  in  Chicago 
today.  We  see  it  every  day  in  grand  opera,  we  see  it  in  the  theatres  a 
great  deal  worse. 

Q.  Who  tells  the  girls  that  sing  at  your  restaurant,  the  performers, 
what  songs  they  shall  sing?  A.  I have  a cabaret  manager,  but  all  songs 
are  subject  to  my  approval  before  they  are  put  on.  We  engage  the  per- 
formers to  do  their  act;  they  say  that  they  shall  sing  for  us,  but  any 
objectionable  songs  they  must  cut  out.  If  the  songs  border  on  the  line 
of  suggestiveness,  I order  it  stopped. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  harem  song?  A.  I stopped  that  a 
couple  of  months  ago. 

Q.  But  you,  stopped  it  after  this  Committee  had  started  its  work? 
A.  Perhaps;  I don’t  know.  I saw  something  in  the  newspapers,  stating 
that  the  harem  song  was  objectionable. 

Q.  Are  they  singing  “All  Night  Long”  at  Rector’s?  A.  If  they  are 
singing  “All  Night  Long”  in  my  place  I’ll  buy  you  a banquet.  I will  set 
up  a banquet  for  this  Committee  and  everybody  in  this  room  if  that  is  so. 

Q.  Our  investigators  tell  us  that  is  so.  A.  I will  buy  a banquet 
for  everybody  in  this  room  if  that  is  so.  (Leaning  over  and  pointing 
toward  one  of  the  investigators.)  But  I want  you  to  be  careful  what  you 
testify  to  about  me,  or  1 will  make  you  prove  it.  I wish  this  man  to  be 
placed  under  oath,  and  let  him  state  here  what  he  said,  and  I will  make 
him  prove  it.  I don’t  want  to  butt  in  on  this,  but  I don’t  want  j-ou  fellows 
to  be  stating  anything  about  me  or  my  place  that  a'ou  can’t  prove. 

Q.  How  long  since  the  harem  song  has  been  sung  at  Rector’s?  A. 
I think  it  is  something  like  si.x  or  eight  weeks  ago,  or  two  months. 

Q.  Could  either  the  harem  or  any  other  song  be  sung  tonight  at 
your  place  without  you  knowing  it?  A.  No,  absolutely  not. 

Q.  Or  some  other  night?  A.  It  might  some  other  night.  I take 
one  night  a week  off.  I stay  at  home  and  get  acquainted  with  my  family, 
and  remain  there  the  rest  of  the  evening,  but  they  wouldn’t  dare  to  sing 
them  in  my  absence.  I don’t  think  they  would  dare  not  to  follow  instruc- 
tions that  I gave. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  songs  in  mind  that  j^ou  consider  objection- 
able? A.  There  is  one  song  called  “Goodie,  Goodie,”  where  some  of  the 
people  get  up  and  make  love  to  one  another,  that  is  one  of  the  songs  I 
stopped.  The  song  this  gentleman  tells  us  I don’t  think  was  ever  sung 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


481 


‘ in  either  one  of  my  places.  There  is  nothing  in  the  nature  of  any  song 
in  Rector’s  that  can  be  considered  as  objectionable. 

Q.  Do  you  employ  any  women  in  your  place?  A.  In  the  capacity 
of  performers  in  the  cabaret? 

Q.  Outside  of  the  cabaret?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Any  dish  washers?  A.  A great  many  kitchen  h^Ip  and  cashiers, 
f and  attendants  in  toilets,  and  such  as  that. 

' Q-  What  is  the  lowest  salary  you  pay  to  any  girl  working  for  you? 
A.  Thirty-five  dollars  and  her  board. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  think  a man,  if  he  takes  a girl  to  a 
I first-class  restaurant  such  as  yours,  and  buys  her  a good  meal  and  a few 
: drinks,  do  you  think  that  might  be  a factor  in  making  her  step  aside  or  in 
lowering  her  morality?  A.  That  might  be  possible,  I would  not  say.  I 
imagine  that  a woman — a man  going  out  with  a woman  to  dine,  so  long 
. as  they  act  perfectly  proper  in  an  establishment  of  our  kind;  that  is,  as 
far  as  we  can  go:  what  they  do  after  that  is  none  of  our  business;  if  they 
conduct  themselves  properly  in  our  place  then  I have  nothfhg  further  to 
do  with  them. 

H.  H.’s  and  E.  W.’s  Testimony. 

I H.  H.  and  E.  W.,  called  as  witnesses  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  were  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  H.  H. 

Q.  And  what  is  your  name?  A.  E.  W. 

Q.  Where  are  you  working?  E.  W. : At  Rector’s. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  by  any  publisher  for  singing  his  songs?  A.  No,  sir. 
Q.  What  do  you  do?  H.H.:  Whistle. 

Q.  Where?  A.  At  Rector’s. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?  A.  Since  Monday. 

Q.  Are  you  being  paid  by  any  publisher  to  whistle  his  tunes?  A. 
No,  not  now. 

Q.  Were  you  ever?  A.  Once. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  harem  song?  A.  Well,  I don’t 
ii  know. 

Q.  You  would  not  sing  a song  of  that  character?  A.  No,  sir;  I 
■ would  not  sing  it.  I only  sing  ballads;  I don’t  pay  any  attention  to  the 
] others. 

i Maude  J.  Josaphare’s  Testimony. 

j MAUDE  J.  JOSAPHARE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  ComrAittee, 
l|  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
j follows: 

p 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  'Maude  J.  Josa- 
phare. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Rector’s  tonight?  A.  I had  supper  there. 

Q.  Between  what  hours?  A.  Between  10:45  and  11:45  o’clock;  I 
left  there  at  12:10  o’clock. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  were  in  Rector’s  tonight  did  you  hear  any 
singing  or  see  any  dancing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  describe  the  songs  that  you  heard  and  the  dances  that 
you  saw?  A.  I was  too  far  away  to  hear  the  words  of  any  song.  The 
music  that  accompanied  it  was  evidently  operatic,  one  of  them;  the  other 
one  had  something  to  do  with  the  topics  of  the  day,  because  I heard  the 
White  Sox  mentioned;  those  were  the  only  two  songs  that  I heard  sung. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  And  the  dances?  A.  The  dances  are  on  the  platform.  The 
solo  dance  was  performed  by  the  young  woman  that  sat  in  this  chair  and 
testified  before  the  Committee.  In  the  first  dance  she  wore  the  usual  ballet 
dancer’s  dress,  white  muslin  skirts  and  pink  tights.  She  might  just  as 
well  have  absolutely  had  no  skirts  on  at  all  at  various  portions  of  the 
dance.  I couldn’t  just  tell  you  how  it  happened,  but  when  she  turned 
around  rather  quickly  she  might  just  as  well  have  had  no  skirts  on  at  all. 

Q.  That  was  the  girl  who  was  here  with  that  young  man?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  they  dance  together?  A.  No,  the  man  did  not  dance  in  that 
dance  at  all;  that  was  the  solo  dance. 

Q.  When  did  they  dance  together?  A.  May  I say  that  after  that 
dance  she  appeared  in  pink  tights  and  a costume  of  black  chiffon  that 
made  a sort  of  a harem  costume;  I suppose  she  had  Turkish  trousers. 
Of  course,  one  thickness  of  black  chiffon  over  pale,  pink  tights  was  all 
she  wore.  In  that  she  danced  the  Oriental  dance  alone. 

Q.  Was  that  a suggestive  dance?  A.  Well,  I think  that  all  of  those 
pantomime  Oriental  dances  are,  and  that  was  one  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  something  of  art?  A.  I was  a teacher  of  art  in 
the  public  schools  in  Philadelphia  for  two  years. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  this  kind  of  dances  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Describe  the  other  dance  you  saw.  A.  The  third  dance  was 
what  I should  call  the  tango.  It  was  danced  with  a man.  I have  seen 
one  there  in  the  slums  in  New  York.  In  the  modern  tango  the  man  picks 
the  girl  up  and  throws  her  around,  bends  over  to  the  floor  that  way,  rests 
his  arms  on  her  arms  and  his  head  on  her  shoulder,  and  vice  versa. 

Q.  Is  it  art  or  suggestive?  A.  I don’t  think  there  is  any  art  in 
that.  I think  it  is  very  suggestive,  the  kind  of  suggestiveness  that  may 
confuse  in  the  mind  of  a young  girl. 

Q.  Could  any  young  girl  view  it  without  confusing  her  sense  of  right 
and  wrong?  A.  Well,  I should  not  want  my  daughter  to  see  it.  It 
might  not  have  any  bad  effect  on  her  at  all,  but  I would  not  want  to 
risk  it. 

Q.  You  think  that  kind  of  dancing  is  a menace  to  womanhood?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  I think  it  is  a menace  to  womanhood;  at  least  if  the  things  I 
heard  men  say  at  the  other  tables  around  me  are  any  criterion. 

Q.  What  did  they  say:  do  you  care  to  repeat  them?  A.  I heard 
one  man  say,  for  instance,  that  he  was  awful  glad  she  wore  silk  tights, 
that  he  was  awful  tired  of  mercerized  ones. 

Q.  What  other  remarks  were  made  that  you  heard?  A.  Well,  the 
usual  remarks  that  “I  am  for  her,”  “She  can  have  me,”  “I  wouldn’t  mind 
making  a date  with  her,”  “She  is  one  of  the  prettiest  I ever  saw.”  SimpR 
the  usual  remarks  we  hear  men  make  when  a girl  dances  prettily  and 
well,  or  otherwise. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  It  must  have  been  suggestive,  because 
they  made  suggestions.  A.  Yes,  they  did. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Was  there  any  other  dances  after  that?  ’A. 
Then  there  was  the  general  dance. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that  general  dance.  A.  Well,  I saw  a girl  there 
who  looked  about  nineteen;  of  course,  you  can’t  judge  ages  in  a restau- 
rant under  an  artificial  light,  with  a pink  rose  in  her  hair;  she  did  a verj" 
peculiar  thing. 

Q.  What  was  that?  A.  The  man  held  her  out  a distance  of  three 
or  four  feet  and  they  danced  three  or  four  steps;  then  he  embraced  her, 
then  loosened  her  and  then  danced  three  or  four  steps  and  then  embraced 
again. 

Q.  Again,  art  or  suggestion?  A.  There  wasn’t  any  art  in  it,  if  that 
is  an  answer  to  your  question. 

Q.  How  many  people  were  dancing?  A.  I should  think  there  were 
twenty  couples  dancing:  I think  three  or  four  couples  were  dancing  the 
ordinary  two-step;  the  others  were  doing  the  modern  variations  of  the 
tango  and  turkey  trot. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


483 


Q.  Were  any  of  the  dancers  intoxicated?  A.  Oh,  I didn’t  notice 
anything  of  that  sort. 

Q.  Were  the  majority  of  the  dancers  young?  A.  Perhaps  two-thirds 
of  them  were. 

Q.  Some  of  them  very  young?  A.  This  young  girl  with  a rose  in 
her  hair  was  the  youngest.  I venture  she  was  nineteen. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  In  your  opinion,  are  there  many  girls  that 
frequent  Rector’s,  or  places  of  that  character,  that  go  wrong?  A.  I am 
sure  I am  not  enough  of  an  authority  to  know.  I saw  girls  there,  but  I 
know  nothing  about  their  private  lives. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  think  that  a restaurant  like  that 
is  a proper  place  to  dance  the  tango?  A.  Well,  I am  telling  you  what  1 
thought  tonight.  I thought  there  was  once  a time  when  women  who  gave 
balls  or  dances  had  to  beg  men  to  come  and  dance;  now  they  have  to 
give  public  dances  to  accommodate  all  the  people  who  want  to  dance.  It 
must  be  that  the  sort  of  dancing  they  do  must  be  very  different  from  the 
old  kind.  There  is  something  wrong  with  it  when  people  want  to  dance 
everywhere. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  more  proper  on  the  stage  than  in  the  home? 
A.  I don’t  think  it  is  proper  anywhere  if  it  is  not  proper  in  the  home. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  the  people  on  the  stage,  but  in  the  home  you  do 
know  the  people.  A.  Well,  I don’t  see  how  it  can  be  right  at  one  place 
and  not  be  right  in  another. 

Charles  M.  Richter’s  Testimony. 

CHARLES  M.  RICHTER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Charles  M.  Rich- 
ter. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Publishing  business. 

Q.  Were  you  at  Rector’s  Restaurant  tonight?  A.  I was. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  out  of  the  way  there?  A.  Not  in  the  least. 

Q.  Did  you  see  those  dances?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  dances  were  they?  A.  Well,  my  attention  all  the 
time  was  not  on  the  stage.  One  was  a ballet  dance,  and  the  other  was 
what  they  call  the  tango.  I don’t  think  you  can  give  it  any  particular 
name;  it  was  more  or  less  of  an  acrobatic  dance,  I should  say. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  a dance  of  that  sort  has  any  wrongful  in- 
fluence upon  the  mind  of  a young  girl  of  nineteen  or  twenty  who  might 

be  a witness  of  it?  A.  I don’t  think  so,  because  I think  it  is  altogether 
an  exclusive  acrobatic  dance,  and  carries  no  suggestion  with  it. 

C.  Gregg’s  Testimony. 

C.  GREGG,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  C.  Gregg. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Waiter. 

Q.  You  were  over  at  Rector’s  tonight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  there  that  was  not  right  or  proper  in  your 
liidgment?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  a dance  there  tonight?  A.  I saw  a new  dance  with 
conventional  costume,  sort  of  Egyptian  dance,  with  a carpet  on  the  floor, 
and  then  the  dance  with  this  man. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  kind  of  a dance  has  a good  moral  influence 


484  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

or  bad  moral  influence  on  the  community?  A.  I am  not  competent  to 
answer. 

O.  B.  Stimpson’s  Testimony. 

O.  B.  STIMPSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  O.  B.  Stimpson. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manager  of  the  States  Restaurant. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  general  dance  down  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  begin  the  general  dance?  A.  6:30,  8:30,  11  and 
1 o’clock. 

Q.  What  kind  of  dances  do  you  have?  A.  Waltzing  and  two-step. 

Q.  How  long  have  your  patrons  been  dancing  in  this  manner?  A.  I 
don’t  think  it  is  two  weeks  that  we  started  it. 

Q.  How  many  people  were  dancing  there  tonight?  A.  Four  couples, 
I believe;  I think  three  couples,  besides  one  professional.  It  might  have 
been  more;  the  most  we  ever  danced,  danced  tonight;  I know  that,  and  I 
think  four  couples  was  the  limit. 

Q.  Were  all  those  dances  proper?  A.  Every  one  of  them;  j'es,  sir. 

Q.  You  serve  drinks  in  your  place,  do  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  an  important  part  of  your  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  your  observation,  or  is  it  not,  that  public  criticism  is  directed 
against  dances  in  any  place  where  drinks  are  sold?  A.  That  is  possible, 
and  probable.  But  we  have  been  forced  to  do  it  by  the  demands  of  our 
patrons.  We  haven’t  had  any  tango  and  this  sort  of  things;  we  have  onh' 
been  doing  it  a few  days. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  have  brought  you  here  tonight  because 
several  persons,  who  have  been  interested  in  restricting  vice  and  cleansing 
dance  halls  in  Chicago,  have  asserted  the  necessity,  or  at  least  advisability, 
of  prohibiting  drinking  at  public  places  where  dancing  is  indulged  in.  We 
are  merely  an  investigating  Committee.  We  seek  facts,  and  we  welcome 
viewpoints.  We  want  yours.  We  want  3^ou  to  talk  franklj'  and  freely. 
Obviously  the  rules  applying  to  the  poor  halls  must  apph'  to  the  first-class 
restaurants  as  well;  we  cannot  investigate  the  poorer  places  without  in- 
vestigating the  places  patronized  b}"  the  wealthier  people. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  It  would  be  a hardship  on  j‘ou  without  the 
sale  of  liquor?  A.  Yes,  sir.. 

Q.  Is  there  any  money  in  the  restaurant  business  anj’  more?  A.  At 
present,  no. 

Q.  You  have  to  pay  it  all  to  these  cabaret  performers,  don’t  j'ou? 
A.  Pretty  near. 

Q.  Do  you  think  some  of  these  popular  songs  are  going  too  far? 
A.  I think  so,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  that  “/\11  Night”  song  that  they  talk  about?  A.  I don’t 
know,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  hear  any  song  of  that  sort  sung  in  j-our  place?  A. 
No,  sir;  not  that  I know  of.  The  harem  song  I cut  out.  It  was  sung  in 
my  place  last  week  one  night. 

Q.  When  did  you  cut  it  out?  A.  Last  week. 

Q.  Whjf?  A.  Why,  somebody  mentioned  the  fact  to  me,  and  I had 
it  cut  out. 

Q.  You  are  in  your  place  every  night?  A.  Everv'  night;  j^es,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  hear  “All  Night  Long”  sung  there  tonight?  A.  I 


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485 


don’t  know;  it  might  have  been  sung:  I paid  very  little  attention  to  it 
tonight. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  In  putting  on  this  cabaret  stunt  you  have 
to  raise  the  price  of  food  at  your  place?  A.  We  haven’t  raised  the  price 
yet. 

Q.  You  will  have  to  do  it  eventually?  A.  We  will  have  to  do  it  if 
we  keep  up  with  the  times. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  will  raise  the  price  of  living?  A.  That  is 
right. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  people  demand  it?  A.  It  seems  they  do;  they 
won’t  go  to  places  where  we  don’t  have  it;  you  would  starve  to  death 
without  it.  I tried  one  month  without  it  and  lost  $2,200. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  possible  to  bring  these  restaurants  all  to- 
gether, managers  and  owners,  and  have  a mutual  understanding  to  cut  out 
this  sort  of  thing?  A.  Yes,  it  is  possible,  although  it  has  been  attempted 
several  times  by  restaurant  co-operative  associations.  We  have  even 
tried  to  cut  out  music  two  years  ago.  I worked  very  hard  for  it. 

Q.  One  more  question:  what  makes  girls  go  wrong?  A.  Why,  the 
majority  of  them  go  wrong  because  they  don’t  get  the  proper  education. 
They  are  not  like  a young  boy.  Their  parents,  to  begin  with,  are  probably 
ignorant  and  their  environments  had  a good  deal  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  All  right;  a girl  is  working,  we  will  say,  for  a starvation  salary, 
or  insufficient  wage,  she  is  a good  girl,  and  some  man  comes  along, 
possibly  a decent  man,  and  how  does'  he  court  her?  A.  In  the  first 
place,  he  takes  her  to  a restaurant  or  bar,  and  buys  her  a drink  for  the 
inner  man,  or  stomach. 

Q.  Many  of  those  men  will  take  a girl  to  such  a restaurant  as  yours? 
A.  Or  to  the  LaSalle. 

Q.  Or  any  first-class  place?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  he  buys  her  a good  dinner,  w'hich  costs  him  about  as  much 
as  she  makes  in  a whole  week?  A.  That  is  true. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : What  is  the  lowest  wage  you  pay?  A. 
Twenty-five  dollars  a month  to  the  scrub  girls  and  their  board.  I pay  as 
high  as  $60.00  a month,  $50.00  a month  in  the  restaurant,  but  there  is  only 
six  of  them. 

Dora  Wilson’s  and  George  H.  Wilson’s  Testimony. 

DORA  WILSON  and  GEORGE  H.  WILSON,  called  as  witnesses 
before  the  Committee,  being  first  duly  sw^orn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  ex- 
amined and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Dora  Wilson. 

Q.  And  yours?  A.  George  H.  Wilson. 

Q.  What  is  the  relationship?  Mr.  Wilson:  Man  and  wife. 

Q.  (To  Mr.  Wilson):  Where  do  you  dance?  A.  I happened  to  be 
at  the  States  tonight. 

Q.  You  dance  with  your  wife  down  there?  A.  Yes.  You  have  heard  from 
Mr.  Stimpson  that  he  desired  to  put  on  dances  following  the  style  in  this 
city,  and  he  thought  it  would  be  advisable  to  engage  a recognized  dancer 
in  the  city.  I believe  he  engaged,  or  at  least  I know  he  did  engage  a 
Miss  Long,  who  has  one  of  the  best  schools  in  the  city  in  the  Powers 
Building.  Miss  Long  being  in  my  profession,  she  requested  me,  when  I 
had  time  to  come  over  and  help  her  demonstrate  and  help  her  take  care 
of  the  work  over  there.  So  I and  my  wife,  when  we  have  nothing  else  to 
do,  go  down  to  Mr.  Stimpson’s  restaurant  and  entertain  ourselves  and  Mr. 
Stimpson. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  for  dancing?  A.  No,  there  is  nothing — of  course, 
the  consideration  is  that  our  check  is  overlooked,  I guess.  It  is  more  for  a 
favor  to  Miss  Long  that  I do  it  than  anything  else. 


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Q.  Do  you  see  anything  indecent  in  any  of  the  dances?  A.  No,  sir; 
because  there  is  nothing  indecent  in  my  mind. 

Q.  If  there  were  something  indecent  in  the  mind  of  the  onlooker, 
would  the  dance  then  be  indecent?  A.  No,  sir;  the  man’s  mind  might  be 
indecent,  but  not  the  dance. 

Q.  Nothing  can  be  indecent  except  the  man’s  mind?  A.  That  is  all. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  you  hear  “All  Night  Long”  sung 
there?  A.  I haven’t  much  of  an  ear  for  listening  to  these  songs;  I heard 
that  question  asked  of  Mr.  Stimpson.  I was  trying  to  think  then:  I 
couldn’t  say. 

Q.  You  have  quite  a foot  for  dancing,  but  not  an  ear  for  music?  A. 
I have  a good  ear. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  He  has  no  ear  for  “All  Night  Long,”  and, 
therefore,  he  has  got  a decent  mind. 

SENATOR  WOODARD  (to  Mrs.  Wilson):  Did  you  hear  “All  Night 
Long?”  Do  you  sing?  A.  I don’t  think  anybody  would  want  to  hear 
me  sing. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  “All  Night  Long”  sung?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  sort  of  a song  is  it?  A.  It  depends  on  how  you  sing  it.  I 
can  sing  “All  Night  Long”  and  not  see  anything  bad  in  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  chorus  of  “All  Night  Long?”  A.  I don’t  know,  but 
I think  I will  look  it  up  tomorrow.  There  isn’t  much  to  it.  It  hasn’t 
anything  that  I could  object  to,  or  anybody  else  with  a decent  mind.  I 
think  it  is  just  the  way  that  you  look  at  it,  the  things  that  affect  people. 

MR.  WILSON:  Some  places  they  have  to  pay  to  get  in  to  dance. 

Q.  Are  there  any  professional  dancers  at  the  States?  A.  Miss  Long 
and  one  or  two  of  her  paid  assistants,  and  sometimes  some  of  her  better 
pupils  have  to  fill  in  two  or  three  couples  there;  and  Miss  Long,  I am 
sure  I can  safely  say,  has  as  high  a class  school  as  there  is  in  the  City  of 
Chicago.  Of  course,  you  probably  naturally  recognize  that  I have  made 
this  subject  more  or  less  of  a study. 

Whereupon  a recess  was  taken  by  the  Committee  to  ten  o’clock 
A.  M.,  April  12,  1913. 


SESSION  XVIII 


Proprietor  describes  efforts  made  to  guard  girl  patrons  of 
“Dreamland”  dance  halL  Caretaker  tells  of  orgies  held  in  East 
End  hall.  Owner  of  Columbia  hall,  criticised  by  other  witnesses, 
thanks  the  Committee  for  an  opportunity  to  explain  how  his  hall 
is  conducted.  Testimony  of: 

Frank  Bement,  proprietor  of  “Dreamland;” 

Walter  Bassett,  caretaker,  East  End  hall; 

F.  T.  McGuire,  proprietor,  Columbia  hall. 

Chicago,  April  12,  1913,  10:00  A.  M.,  La  Salle  Hotel. 
The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

All  members  being  present,  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

Frank  Bement’s  Testimony. 

FRANK  BEMENT,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Frank  Bement. 

Q.  Your  business,  Mr.  Bement?  A.  Dancing  master. 

Q.  With  what  hall,  if  any,  are  you  connected?  A.  Dreamland.  I am 
the  active  and  executive  manager. 

Q.  You  have  a financial  interest  in  the  hall?  A.  None,  whatever. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located,  Mr.  Bement?  A.  Paulina  and  West  Van 
Buren  street. 

Q.  How  often  are  dances  held  there?  A.  Six  times  a week.  Every 
night  except  Monday  and  Tuesday,  and  Sunday  afternoon,  and  additional 
to  that,  when  it  should  be  rented  straight  for  a night. 

Q.  What  time  do  the  dances  begin?  A.  8:30  each  evening. 

Q.  What  time  does  the  last  dancer  leave  the  building?  A.  Midnight, 
except  Saturday.  Saturday  at  1 in  the  morning. 

Q.  How  many  people  will  this  hall  accommodate?  A.  A full  hall  will 
accommodate  about  1,000  couples. 

Q.  Is  it  often  filled  to  capacity?  A.  Not  very  often. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  is  the  average  attendance,  or  average  number 
of  couples?  A.  Between  500  and  1,000. 

Q.  Are  any  indecent  dances  permitted?  A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  To  prevent  any  indecency  what  system  have  you?  A.  We  have 
not  less  than  six  or  eight  people  with  their  eyes  on  the  crowd  every  moment. 

Q.  Where  are  those  six  or  eight  people?  A.  Some  are  on  the  floor, 
and  all  over  the  house.  Every  emploj^e  of  the  house  is  instructed  to  look 
out  for  things  that  we  would  not  want.  We  have  one  man  in  the  center  of 
the  floor  all  the  time,  others  moving  about  the  place 

Q.  You  consider  it  good  business  to  protect  your  hall  in  that  way? 
A.  I certainly  do.  I have  been  24  years  in  the  dancing  business  in  Chicago, 
longer  than  any  other  man  in  the  business,  dealing  with  this  class  of  people. 

Q.  Do  you  serve  intoxicants?  A.  None  whatever;  it  is  prohibited, 
even  when  we  have  other  people  there  than  our  own. 

Q.  This  Committee  has  been  informed  that  your  company  has  also 
assisted  in  cleaning  up  some  of  the  rooming  houses  in  that  neighborhood; 
is  that  true?  A.  We  have  made  complaints  against  them.  The  place 
called  the  Blue  Light  is  closed  entirely. 

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Q.  Your  hall  is  paying?  A.  Yes,  sir,  making  money. 

Q.  Do  you  wish  this  Committee  to  understand  that  you  don’t  allow  the 
sale  of  intoxicants,  that  you  are  assisting  in  cleaning  up  the  neighborhood, 
making  it  a moral  neighborhood  as  nearly  as  you  can,  and  that  you  guard 
your  own  patrons  from  indecency,  because  it  is  good  business?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  This  is  our  second  year,  but  I do  not  think  that  we  would  have  been 
doing  business  now  if  we  had  not  followed  that  plan.  We  would  have  been 
out  of  business.  I do  not  think  a place  of  that  size  could  exist  unless  it  was 
properly  handled. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  something  about  the  moral  cleaning 
up  of  that  neighborhood?  A.  Well,  the  building  we  took  where  we  found  it. 
The  neighborhood  was  not  good.  When  we  opened  up  there  we  were  under 
a heavy  burden.  We  felt  that  we  were  going  to  do  business,  and  it  was  up 
to  us  to  do  what  we  could  to  prevent  things  that  would  injure  our  place, 
the  moral  standing  of  it.  And  we  made  complaints;  whether  it  was  our 
complaints  or  the  lack  of  business,  I could  not  say  possibly;  but  a great 
many  of  the  places  are  closed.  There  is  not  anything  close  to  there  now. 
There  are  two  or  three  saloons  close,  and  two  or  three  rooming  houses 
close.  One  called  the  Rink,  because  it  was  formerly  an  ice  rink,  is  the 
nearest  one.  I notice  it  is  vacant,  as  there  are  signs  “For  rent”  up  today. 
It  has  not  promoted  the  bad  features  of  the  neighborhood,  having  Dream- 
land there,  not  by  any  means.  My  orders,  when  we  opened  up  there,  were 
to  keep  the  dance  absolutely  and  strictly  clean,  and  I have  always  done  it, 
and  I think  we  have  had  less  objectionable  things  occur  there  than  any 
other  hall  in  the  city,  notwithstanding  its  large  size. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  charge  for  a dance?  A.  Five  cents  each 
dance.  We  require  a gentleman  to  buy  two  tickets  before  he  enters  the  hall. 

Q.  That  is,  five  cents  a person  or  couple?  A.  Five  cents  a couple. 

Q.  Now,  when  a person  has  purchased  his  ticket,  or  ten  cents’  worth 
of  tickets,  and  has  gone  into  the  hall,  is  there  anything  to  prevent  him  from 
going  out  and  walking  a block  or  two  and  getting  a few  drinks  and  coming 
back  and  buying  more  tickets?  A.  Yes,  we  won’t  permit  it.  unless  they 
get  by  us  without  our  knowing  it,  but  they  don’t  very  often  do  that;  they 
might  do  it  once  or  twice. 

Q.  What  is  the  rule?  A.  We  don’t  admit  the  same  person  twice  on 
the  same  evening,  whether  they  pay  their  way  in  or  not.  They  never  leave 
the  hall  without  a ticket  and  they  are  refused  admittance  the  second  time. 
They  never  leave  the  hall  without  taking  their  wraps  with  them,  as  if  they 
intended  to  stay,  and  we  expect  them  to  staJ^ 

Q.  Do  any  girls  go  there  without  escorts?  A.  Oh,  yes.  a great  many. 

Q.  What  do  the}'  pay  when  they  come  in?  A.  They  don’t  pay  any- 
thing. 

Q.  How  is  that?  A.  They  pay  nothing  to  come  in. 

Q.  Then  it  is  possible,  under  your  system,  for  a man  to  go  into  your 
place  and  make  a selection  of  girls  to  dance  with?  A.  \ es,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  way  of  minimizing  the  danger  attaching  to  that  sys- 
tem? A.  It  might  be  minimized.  It  could  not  be  prevented,  the  getting 
acquainted,  the  girls  coming  to  a public  dance  alone  and  getting  acquainted, 
but  we  promote  their  introduction  and  acquaintances  as  much  as  possible. 
But  at  that,  the  introducing  of  two  people  does  not  make  any  difference 
with  them;  if  they  get  acquainted,  whether  they  get  acquainted  with  an 
introduction  or  without  it.  But  we  watch  over  the  people,  and  if  a girl 
comes  in  and  stands  around  and  doesn’t  dance,  doesn’t  take  her  wraps  off, 
she  usually  doesn’t  do  that  over  two  or  three  times  until  we  find  out  what 
she  is  there  for,  and  we  ask  her  to  stay  away. 

Q.  Mrs.  Britton  has  informed  this  Committee  you  have  one  of  the 
best  regulated  dance  halls  in  Chicago,  but  that  there  are  a few  faults.  The 
girls  come  in,  they  are  admitted  free;  and  men  come  in,  respectable  so  far 
as  you  know,  and’  they  mingle  with  these  girls.  Among  the  men  coming 
in  might  be,  and  in  some  cases  it  does  happen,  agents  of  the  white  slave 
industry,  who  are  looking  for  girls  to  seduce;  now,  ^Ir.  Bement.  from 
your  experience  what  would  you  say  can  be  done  further  to  minimize  the 
danger?  A.  From  observation  we  can  learn  a great  deal  of  a person’s 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


489 


motive  by  keeping  close  watch  on  how  they  are  acting  and  what  they  do. 
We  have  a matron  in  the  ladies’  room  to  inform  us  if  anything  looks  as  if 
anyone  was  there  after  the  girls:  we  keep  pretty  close  watch  over  them. 
Only  a week  or  so  ago  1 spoke  to  one  of  our  stockholders  and  said,  “1 
believe  there  is  a woman  that  1 will  go  and  tell  to  stay  away.”  He  says, 
“You  had  better  be  careful,  don’t  get  in  bad.”  That  same  night  he  called 
around  there  and  saw  the  same  woman  and  told  her  not  to  come  back. 
He  had  observed  something. 

Q.  What  did  he  observe?  A.  She  passed  out  cards  to  two  or  three 
men,  and  he  simply  went  up  to  her  and  told  her  to  leave  the  place  and  stay 
away,  and  she  has  not  been  back  since. 

Q.  You  are  always  on  the  lookout?  A.  Always,  constantly. 

Q.  Does  that  happen  once  in  a while  or  quite  frequently?  A.  Not 
very  often,  but  it  has  happened  a few  times. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  order  any  men  away  from  there?  A.  Oh,  yes. 

There  is  one  single  man  I had  in  mind  now,  and  I made  up  my  mind  from 
observation  that  a young  girl  would  not  be  safe  in  his  hands.  I had  other 
reasons  to  tell  him  to  stay  away,  and  I did  so. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  ordered  any  man  away  because,  in  your  judgment 
or  in  your  belief,  he  was  an  agent  of  commercialized  prostitution?  A. 
No,  I never  have;  never  have  met  with  them.  1 don’t  think  that  there  is 
an  effort  to  get  girls  out  of  there,  unless  there  was  some  personal,  in- 
dividual case;  not  for  any  possible  proposition  of  white  slavery.  You  see, 
we  keep  such  a close  watch  over  them,  and  they  know  it,  that  they  don’t 
feel  that  it  is  a profitable  place  to  come. 

Q.  Is  there  any  singing  in  your  hall?  A.  None  whatever.  These 
lellows  come  around,  music  publishers,  and  want  to  put  it  in,  but  I have 
always  said,  “Nothing  like  that.” 

Q.  What  kind  of  dances  are  the  most  popular?  A.  The  waltz,  the 
two-step,  and  once  in  a while  the  three-step. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  the  three-step?  A.  They  are  gliding  steps  to 
three-four  time,  to  Mazurka  time,  they  glide.  It  is  just  as  chaste  a dance 
as  any  ever  was. 

Q.  How  about  the  tango  and  the  turkey  trot?  A.  We  have  no 
tango  or  turkey  trot;  nothing  of  the  kind  there. 

Q.  Are  they  prohibited?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  If  anyone  dances  the  tango  or  turkey  trot  are  they  ordered  from 
the  place?  A.  They  are  corrected,  and  if  they  don’t  observe  the  correc- 
tion they  are  told  to  leave  the  floor  and  place  and  not  come  back. 

Q.  Is  there  any  embracing?  A.  Nothing  like  that,  no  close  posi- 
tions, no  heads  together;  none  of  the  tough  looking  dances  that  you  see 
in  the  tougher  halls;  nothing  like  that,  whether  it  is  right  or  wrong.  Some 
things  are  prohibited  that  are  right,  that  are  not  objectionable  even  in 
other  places,  for  instance,  the  dip,  and  so  forth. 

Q.  How  old  are  those  girls  that  visit  your  place?  A.  We  don’t 
admit  them  under  eighteen  years  unless  they  are  with  their  parents. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  always  know  it?  A.  I presume  they  get  by  us 
sometimes;  sometimes  we  make  mistakes  the  other  way  and  keep  them 
out  when  they  are  over  eighteen. 

Q.  How  many  times  in  the  year  have  you  refused  admittance  to  girls 
because  you  thought  they  were  under  eighteen?  A.  Well,  that  all  de- 
pends. We  get  reports  from  the  Pinkerton  people  that  we  use.  I have 
some  of  them  here.  I just  picked  out  a few  from  the  bundle.  Here  is  one 
of  March  5th.  It  says:  “As  per  instructions  of  Peter  Lavin,  the  follow- 
ing persons  at  the  door,  twelve  boys  and  seven  girls  who  appeared  to  be 
under  fifteen  years  of  age,  and  fifteen  men,  who  appeared  to  be  under  the 
influence  of  liquor,  were  refused  admission.” 

Q.  Are  many  of  the  girls  who  patronize  your  hall  working  girls? 
A.  Most  of  them,  I presume. 

Q.  Some  of  them  perhaps  work  for  wages  below  what  this  Commit- 
tee is  pleased  to  term  the  bread-line?  A.  Very  likely. 

O.  Your  dance  hall  especially  caters  to  them?  A.  Yes,  we  have 


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a bargain  counter  in  dances.  They  come  in  there  if  they  haven’t  any 
money  to  spend  an  evening.  A great  many  of  them  have  no  other  place 
to  go,  there  is  no  doubt  about  it. 

Q.  You  have  met  a good  many  of  those  girls?  A.  More  or  less. 
If  a girl  comes  in  late  in  the  evening  two  or  three  times,  we  find  out 
what  her  occupation  is.  She  may  be  a telephone  girl,  or  a waitress,  she 
may  be  employed  and  come  in  there  from  her  work.  If  her  work  doesn’t 
keep  her  until  late,  why  then  we  don’t  want  her  there. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  what  makes  girls  go  wrong?  A.  I think  igno- 
rance more  than  anything  else. 

Q.  Ignorance?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  designing  influence  of  men. 

Q.  What  makes  them  succumb  to  the  “designing  influence  of  men”? 
A.  Well,  I think  that  is  where  the  ignorance  comes  in  as  much  as  any- 
thing else;  that  is  my  opinion  from  a great  deal  of  observation  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  nob  that  low  wages  are  a factor?  A. 
I think  it  has  an  influence.  But  it  is  not  the  only  factor.  I think  a 
woman  might  go  hungry  if  she  had  a strong  will  and  was  properly  im- 
pressed in  her  childhood  to  protect  herself  rather  than  let  anybody 
carry  her  away. 

Q.  It  is  your  opinion  that  it  is  one  of  the  large  contributing  causes 
of  a girl’s  downfall?  A.  Yes,  I think  it  is. 

Q.  You  say  that  as  a man  who  perhaps  has  seen  more  working  girls 
in  their  moments  of  innocent  enjoyment  than  any  other  man  in  Chi- 
cago? A.  Well,  I have  conducted  this  kind  of  dances  for  24  years,  and 
never  conducted  one  in  a way  or  spirit  that  I would  be  ashamed  to  have  it 
brought  out  on  the  Day  of  Judgment. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  relation  do  you  think  the  sale  of  liquor 
at  a dance  hall  has  to  a girl  going  wrong?  A.  I think  it  contributes 
greatly.  I think  it  is  one  of  the  worst  things  that  happen  at  dances,  is  the 
dispensing  of  liquor  at  a public  dance,  under  any  circumstances. 

Q.  Under  any  circumstances?  A.  It  is  very  bad  under  any  cir- 
cumstances at  a public  dance. 

Walter  Bassett’s  Testimony. 

WALTER  BASSETT,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Walter  Bassett. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  I am  manager  of  the  house  furnishing 
department  of  the  East  End  Store,  and  take  charge  of  the  hall  at  that 
place. 

Q.  What  hall?  A.  The  East  End  Hall,  on  Clark  street. 

Q.  To  whom  is  the  hall  rented?  A.  Well,  since  we  have  had  dances 
much  of  the  time  it  has  been  rented  to  organized  parties. 

Q.  That  is,  an  organization  comes  and  they  rent  it  for  an  evening 
to  run  a dance  themselves?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  those  organizations  are  really  bona  fide? 
A.  We  could  not  say  as  to  that,  whether  they  are  or  not. 

Q.  You  take  their  word  for  it?  A.  We  take  their  word  for  it. 

Q.  If  they  come  and  show  you  their  money  that  deposit  mone}-  looks 
all  right?  A.  I don’t  have  anything  to  do  with  the  renting  of  it;  I just 
go  up  in  the  evening  to  take  care  of  things. 

Q.  Why  doesn’t  your  employer  run  dances  there?  A.  In  the  first 
place,  I don’t  think  it  would  pay  them,  because  the  crowd  of  people 
around  that  district  would  not  spend  enough  money  to  make  it  pay; 
that  element  around  there  would  not  be  fit  to  have  in  the  dance  hall. 

Q.  So  he  finds  it  more  profitable  to  hire  it  out  to  other  people  and 
let  them  run  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


491 


Q.  Did  you  have  a dance  there  on  the  evening  of  March  3rd?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q._  Who  gave  that  dance?  A.  That  was  the  South  Water  Street 
Commission  Drivers,  supposed  to  be  organized,  but  they  were  not. 

Q.  It  was  not  an  organization  at  all?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  sell  liquor  there  that  night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  or  without  a license?  A.  Without  a license. 

Q.  With  a special  bar  permit?  A.  They  didn’t  have  a permit. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  they  didn’t?  A.  Because  it  was  closed  about 
eleven  or  twelve  o’clock  when  a policeman  came  up  there. 

Q.  Did  the  policeman  stop  it?  A.  No,  the  police  went  away,  and 
about  two  o’clock  they  came  back  and  raided  the  hall. 

Q.  How  many  people  were  there  that  night?  A.  I should  judge 
about  five  hundred. 

Q.  About  250  girls  and  about  250  fellows?  A.  As  a rule,  there  is 
more  girls  than  fellows. 

Q.  How  many  of  these  girls  are  young  girls?  A.  I could  not  say 
as  to  their  ages,  but  judging  from  their  appearance  they  are  very  young. 

Q.  Some  are  very,  very  young?  A.  Judging  from  their  appeaance. 

Q.  How  young  would  you  judge  some  of  them  were?  A.  Why,  I 
looked  at  some,  some  were  fifteen  and  some  were  under  fifteen. 

Q.  Some  were  fifteen  and  some  under  fifteen?  A.  Yes,  of  course 
there  were  a good  many  older  ones  there. 

Q.  Did  some  of  those  girls  that  in  your  judgment  were  under  fifteen 
come  unescorted?  A.  I could  not  say  as  to  that;  I didn’t  see  them  with 
any  escorts  around  there. 

Q.  Were  any  of  those  girls  drinking?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  were  all 
drinking,  these  girls  under  fifteen — all  drinking. 

Q.  What  kind  of  drinks  generally?  A.  I couldn’t  say  that,  but  I 
know  a few  of  them  were  intoxicated. 

Q.  A few  of  those  girls  under  fifteen  were  intoxicated?  A.  A few 
of  them. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  a fact  that  at  most  of  these  dances  girls  do  get  intoxi- 
cated? A.  There  is  a few  now  and  then,  but  this  is  the  only  one  that  I 
have  any  knowledge  of  where  young  girls  were  intoxicated. 

Q.  At  all  these  other  dances  they  all  do  a good  deal  of  drinking?  A. 
They  all  drink. 

Q.  Occasionally  some  of  them  do  get  intoxicated?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  occasionally  some  of  the  girls  are  fourteen  or  fifteen  or  six- 
teen in  your  judgment?  A.  In  my  judgment. 

Q.  You  say  about  three  hundred  girls  and  two  hundred  fellows,  and 
some  of  the  girls  intoxicated  and  the  fellows  intoxicated;  what  happens 
then?  A.  Then  there  is  rough  house,  and  it  is  time  for  me  to  get  out.  I 
don’t  stay  there  then. 

Q.  Is  that  your  policy  when  this  place  is  rented  and  rough  house 
begins,  it  is  time  for  you  to  get  out?  A.  I am  up  there  to  see  that  the 
lights  are  out,  and  to  check  up;  but  when  they  start  a rough  house  I get 
out.  There  is  always  a special  policeman,  when  they  have  a bar  permit, 
to  watch  those  things;  but  in  this  case  they  didn’t  have  a policeman — they 
done  just  what  they  pleased. 

Q.  What  did  you  see  before  you  left  there  that  night?  A.  I iust 
walked  around  there  and  I seen  them  take  strange  girls  back  in  the  wine- 
room  and  drink  and  come  out  with  them.  The  girls  were  dizzy,  and  I 
would  come  in  just  about  that  time.  I sat  down  in  a chair  and  a fellow 
comes  along,  and  he  says,  “Hello,”  and  I says,  “Hello.”  He  said  something 
to  me  and  I called  him  and  he  hit  me.  I got  up  and  hit  him  back,  and 
there  was  about  fourteen  on  top  of  me,  and  just  about  then  a detective 
came  in  and  he  stopped  us.  I went  out  and  stayed  out  until  about  two 
o’clock,  and  then  I thought  it  was  about  time  to  come  back  just  before  the 
dance  closed,  and  we  checked  up  to  see  that  everything  was  there. 


492 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  didn’t  check  up  that  night?  A.  No,  sir,  they  took  them  all 
in  the  wagon. 

Q.  How  many  were  taken  in  the  wagon?  A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  Any  girls?  A.  I don’t  know  about  that;  there  were  hats  and 

cloaks  left  up  in  the  hall  that  they  didn’t  get. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  any  young  men  taking  liberties  with  any  of  the 
girls?  A.  Well,  in  a way  I did;  a good  many  liberties  that  should  not 
be  taken  in  public;  there  were  girls  laying  on  the  table  drunk  and  fellows 
kissing  them;  and  some  were  trying  to  do  worse  than  that.  One  fellow 
was  up  behind  the  piano  with  a girl.  He  was  taken  off. 

REPRESENTATIVE  KARCH:  What  does  that  building  consist  of, 
just  a hall?  A.  No,  a hall  with  a department  store  downstairs,  and 
theatre — five-cent  show. 

Q.  You  work  in  the  department  store,  do  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  that  hall  rent  for  on  those  occasions.  A.  On  Satur- 

day nights  I think  they  get  $125  for  it. 

Q.  For  one  night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  frequently  does  it  rent?  A.  As  a rule  every  Saturday  and 
sometimes  during  the  week,  to  political  meetings  and  so  forth. 

Q.  Your  proprietor  owns  that  place,  does  he?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  w'hole 
place. 

Q.  You  are  there  only  as  property  man?  A.  Only  just  up  there  in 
the  evenings. 

Q.  You  have  no  authority  so  far  as  the  regulating  of  conduct  is  con- 
cerned? A.  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Who  owns  the  building  in  which  that  hall 
is  located?  A.  The  Grand  Brewery. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Where  is  that  located?  A.  Clark  and  Erie 
streets. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  say  this  hall  is  occasionally  used  for 
political  meetings?  A.  Yes,  sir,  mostly  on  week  days  or  Saturday  after- 
noons. 

Q.  Have  you  an  idea  how  much  they  charge  for  the  use  of  that  hall 
for  political  rallies?  A.  That  depends. 

Q.  Is  that  below  or  above  what  they  charge  for  dances?  A.  Below. 

Q.  Very  much  below?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  ever  give  the  hall  free  for  political  rallies?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Always  charge  for  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  much  do  they  charge  for  a political 
rally?  A.  Sometimes  twenty  or  twenty-five  dollars,  and  sometimes  not 
that  much. 

Q.  But  they  charge  $125  for  a dance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA:  Are  there  any  rooming  houses  near 
that  dance  hall?  A.  Not  adjoining. 

Q.  How  near?  A.  There  is  two  of  them  in  the  block  across  the 
street  from  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  the  people  go  from  the  dance  hall  to 
these  hotels?  A.  I never  seen  them  go  into  the  hotels;  I don’t  know 
where  they  would  go  after  they  left  the  hall. 

Q.  You  stated  3^ou  saw  some  improper  conduct  behind  the  piano? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  attempt  to  stop  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I had  noth- 
ing to  do  with  it.  I would  get  killed  if  I did  anything  that  waj'. 

Q.  Who  closed  the  hall  there?  A.  I did. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  They  went  out  before  the  hall  was  closed? 
A.  A policeman  stayed  there  with  me  until  all  got  out. 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA:  Is  there  a saloon  downstairs  in  this 
dance  hall?  A.  No,  sir,  but  across  the  street  there  is  some. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


493 


Q.  Did  you  tell  your  boss  what  happened  on  the  night  of  March 
21st?  A.  No,  sir,  he  very  seldom  believes  anything  he  hears  of  what 
happens  up  in  the  hall,  so  I didn’t  take  time  to  tell  him.  He  knew  the 
place  was  raided  that  night.  In  the  morning,  when  I told  him,  he 
didn’t  seem  interested,  so  I kept  still. 

Q.  Does  he  know  of  the  general  conduct  of  people  that  come  to 
that  hall?  A.  Well,  in  the  way  they  come  in,  they  are  supposed  to  be 
incorporated,  and  he  lets  them  in.  He  has  only  taken  the  hall  since 
January  21st.  He  had  it  leased  out  up  to  that  time,  and  then  he  put  the 
people  out  that  were  running  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  we  ought  to  put  into  the  record 
that  this  boy  is  one  of  the  best  witnesses  we  have  had  before  this  Com- 
mittee. He  apparently  has  told  the  truth.  Is  Mr.  Larson  here? 

MR.  McGUIRE:  Mr.  Larson  is  not  here,  but  I represent  him. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  will  hear  you.  You  will  be  sworn, 
please. 

F.  T.  McGuire’s  Testimony. 

F.  T.  McGUIRE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Frank  T. 

McGuire. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Dancing  master. 

Q.  With  what  hall,  if  any,  are  you  connected?  A.  With  the  Colum- 
bia hall,  1527  North  Clark  Street. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection  with  that  hall?  A.  I am  lessor  and 
manager,  and  give  dances  there,  teaching  and  dancing;  have  full  charge 
of  the  property,  it  being  my  lease. 

Q.  What  connection  has  Mr.  S.  A.  Larson  with  you?  A.  He  is 
the  main  lessor.  I su’o-lease  from  him. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  the  witness  who  was  just  on  the  stand?  A.  Yes, 
I heard  part  of  it.  His  voice  was  very  low  and  I did  not  hear  it  all. 

O.  Have  you  ever  had  anything  of  that  sort  happen  in  your  hall? 
A.  Never. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  give  dances  there?  A.  We  have  five  dances 
a week,  two  schools  and  three  receptions. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a school?  A.  A school  is  where  we  teach 
dancing. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a reception?  A.  A reception  is  a kind  of 
assembly  where  all  of  the  dancers  go  for  pleasure  to  dance;  they  come 
there  to  dance. 

Q.  Anybody  can  attend  a reception  if  they  have  the  price?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  price?  A.  Fifty  cents  for  gentlemen  and  twenty- 
five  cents  for  ladies,  and  wardrobe  free. 

0.  How  many  couples  do  you  have  there  a night?  A.  Well,  that 
is  different,  on  different  nights;  school  nights  we  have  less,  and  reception 
nights  more.  We  will  say  about  three  hundred,  two  hundred  fifty  to 
three  hundred  couples;  the  school  runs  from  two  hundred  fifty  to  three 
hundred. 

Q.  Do  you  have  more  boys  than  girls,  or  more  women  than  men? 
A.  Sometimes  we  do,  sometimes  we  don’t,  according  to  the  time,  the 
nights  and  conditions.  If  it  is  a rainy  night  we  don’t  get  so  many  girls 
as  boys.  On  a nice  evening  you  probably  get  more  girls  than  boj^s. 
Thursday,  that  is  a good  night,  and  a great  many  girls  come  out  on 
Thursday. 

Q.  Girls  pay  a quarter?  A.  Everyone;  everybody  pays  and  no  girl 
is  allowed  out. 


494 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Do  many  girls  come  there  without  escorts?  A.  Sometimes. 

Q.  When  these  unescorted  girls  come  there  where  do  they  go? 
A.  To  the  cloak  room  first. 

Q.  Suppose  a girl  is  a stranger  and  she  doesn’t  know  anybody  in 
the  place  at  all,  what  does  she  do,  does  she  go  into  the  dancing  parlor 
and  wait  around  until  some  fellow  comes  up  and  introduces  himself?  A. 
No,  we  have  an  introducer  there  that  always  takes  care  of  a gentleman 
that  is  not  known,  and  ladies;  a great  many  come  up  and  ask  to  be 
introduced;  they  say,  “I  am  a stranger  here,  would  you  kindly  get  me 
a partner,”  and  we  see  that  everybody  is  taken  care  of  in  that  way. 

Q.  Do  you  guarantee  to  all  the  girls  who  come  there  that  you  are 
going  to  get  them  a dancing  partner?  A.  Oh,  no,  you  can’t  do  that. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  do  any  girls  go  in  there  by  paying  a quarter 
and  fail  to  get  a dance  during  the  night?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I daresay  they 
do.  There  is  quite  a few  that  do  not  get  a dance  a night,  because  there 
is  more  girls  than  boys. 

Q.  Ever  ask  for  a rain  check  when  they  leave?  A.  Not  the  girls, 
sometimes  the  boys  do. 

Q.  Especially  when  they  can’t  get  a dance?  A.  Yes,  especially 
around  Christmas,  when  the  girls  arq  working  and  the  boys  are  not. 

Q.  How  old  is  this  introducer  of  yours;  what  is  his  name?  A.  Mr. 
H.  Gail.  He  is  about  twenty-five. 

Q.  Is  he  married?  A.  No,  he  keeps  his  mother  and  works  in  the 
Board  of  Trade. 

Q.  He  is  the  introducer?  A.  Yes,  I do  some  introducing  myself. 
If  I see  somebody  sitting  around  that  looks  like  a stranger  I go  to  them 
and  ask  them:  “How  are  you  enjoying  yourself?”  and  try  to  entertain 
them. 

Q.  Do  you  serve  any  drinks  in  this  place?  A.  Yes,  soft  drinks 
only,  ice  cream,  lemonade,  and  such  as  that,  and  cocoa-cola. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  serve  anything  stronger  than  lemonade  or  ice 
cream?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  bar  license  and  no  permit  to  run  a bar?  A.  No. 

Q.  There  are  no  saloons  in  that  immediate  neighborhood?  A.  Oh. 

yes,  there  are  saloons  two  doors  from  there,  across  the  street,  and  half 
a block  further  up,  and  the  Red  Star  saloon  is  right  across  the  street. 

Q.  Do  some  of  your  patrons  go  over  to  the  saloon  and  get  a few 
drinks  during  the  evening?  A.  Oh,  no,  ladies  are  not  allowed  out.  A 
man  can  go  out  if  he  wants  to,  and  come  back  again,  but  no  ladies  are 
allowed  out  unless  she  takes  her  wraps  and  leaves. 

Q.  Suppose  she  does,  can  she  come  back  again?  A.  Not  unless  she 
pays,  and  that  they  never  do. 

Q.  Why  do  you  have  that  provision?  A.  In  order  to  guard  our 

girls  and  keep  them  from  going  out  and  hunting  around;  we  do  not 

allow  that. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  have  any  men  in  there  intoxicated?  A.  Well,  j'es, 
around  Christmas,  when  they  get  a bundle  on  they  come  in  with  it  some- 
times, when  they  get  it  for  a Christmas  present,  but  we  don’t  allow 
anything  like  that,  if  we  know  it. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  ordered  anybody  out  of  there?  A.  No.  never 
ordered  anybody  out,  but  we  have  stopped  them  at  the  door;  if  they 
looked  to  be  a little  under  the  influence  of  liquor  we  stopped  them  at 
the  door. 

Q.  What  dances  do  you  permit  there?  A.  The  waltz,  two-step  and 
three-step. 

Q.  What  is  the  three-step?  A.  Well,  this  is  a dance,  we  used  to 
call  it  the  Newport  when  I was  taught  to  dance.  The  Newport  is  a 
round  dance,  you  know,  a great  deal  on  the  order  of  a waltz  and  two-step, 
the  same  position,  it  is  a close  position,  but  nothing  like  the  tango. 

Q.  How  many  steps  in  the  tango?  A.  V’^ell,  I don’t  know,  and 
I guess  nobody  else  does. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


495 


Q.  Do  you  permit  the  tango  in  your  place?  A.  No,  sir,  we  don’t 
teach  it  and  we  don’t  permit  it. 

Q.  Do  you  teach  the  turkey  trot?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  many  trots  are  there  in  the  turkey 
trot?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you;  there  is  no  trots  to  it;  nothing  but  a freaky 
dance,  you  know;  there  is  nothing  to  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  don’t  permit  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  permit  muscular  dances  of  any  kind?  A.  None  what- 
ever. 

Q.  Or  close  embracing?  A.  Not  if  we  can  help  it;  we  stop  that 
as  much  as  possible  at  all  times.  There  are  two  floor  managers  and 
myself  there  all  the  time.  Everybody  in  the  place  that  is  employed  has 
been  instructed  to  watch  everything  at  all  points  and  all  times,  and  if 
they  see  anything  out  of  order  to  let  me  know,  or  one  of  the  floor  man- 
agers, that  we  might  take  care  of  it.  I have  two  men  on  the  floor  and 
myself,  and  an  introducer  that  can  be  watching  pretty  carefully  in  a 
fairly  good  sized  hall. 

Q.  How  many  people  do  you  actually  employ  for  that  purpose,  just 
to  watch?  A.  Well,  there  is  three. 

Q.  Let  us  name  them,  who  are  they?  A.  Mr.  Burkhard,  Mr.  Theis, 
Mr.  Kelley  and  myself. 

Q.  Where  are  you  stationed?  A.  As  a general  rule,  we  all  are 
in  the  center,  on  the  sides  and  all  around,  looking  here  and  there  and 
seeing  that  everything  is  conducted  fine. 

Q.  The  principal  thing  is  to  see  that  everybody  is  enjoying  himself? 
A.  That  is  the  idea,  to  see  that  everybody  is  enjoying  themselves,  that 
is  what  they  are  there  for,  to  dance,  and  that  is  what  we  are  trying  to  do, 
to  see  that  they  enjoy  themselves. 

Q.  That  is  practically  your  sole  interest?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  want  to  see  that  they  all  have  a good  time?  A.  That  is 
what  I am  there  for. 

Q.  Where  is  the  limit?  A.  The  limit  is  when  I see  them  getting 
too  close  together.  If  I see  them  dancing  anything  such  as  that  I imme- 
diately stop  it  and  set  them  down  and  tell  them,  “You  will  have  to  sit 
down  and  watch  somebody  else  until  you  can  dance  it  like  you  should. 
If  you  can  do  that  you  may  get  up  and  dance,  otherwise  you  will  have 
to  sit  and  look  on.’’ 

Q.  That  sometimes  happens?  A.  Yes,  sir;  once  in  a while  it  does. 

Q.  What  class  of  ?irls  patronize  your  place?  A.  All  kinds  of  girls. 
A public  dance  gets  all  kinds,  working  girls,  home  girls;  most  of  the 
working  girls  live  at  home,  the  majority  of  them  are  that  way.  I have 
a nice  class  of  people. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Any  questions.  Senator  Beall? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  No,  he  looks  good  to  me. 

THE  WITNESS:  Come  up  sometime  and  see  for  yourselves. 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA:  You  say  these  men  go  out  sometimes 
to  take  a drink;  you  leave  them  go  out  whenever  they  want  to?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  come  back  again?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  say  when  you  feel  as  if  they  were  under  the  influence 

of  liquor  you  stop  them  at  the  door?  A.  Oh,  well,  they  don’t  go  that 

far;  that  is  not  the  class  of  people  to  go  that  far. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  occasion  to  stop  anybody  at  the  door? 
A.  Yes,  we  do;  if  they  don’t  look  just  right  they  don’t  get  in. 

Q.  Suppose  they  pass  by  and  you  find  them  in  the  hall  under  the 
influence  of  liquor,  do  you  ever  order  them  out?  A.  Weil,  they  never 
get  in  in  the  first  place;  they  never  get  their  wraps  off;  the  men  in  the 
wardrobe  will  discover  that;  there  is  somebody  always  that  will  get  them 
if  they  are  under  the  influence  of  liquor,  they  don’t  get  far. 

Q.  Then  you  never  have  occasion  to  order  them  out?  A.  No. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  dance  hall 
business?  A.  About  fifteen  years,  pretty  close. 

Q.  You  have  had  a good  deal  of  experience  in  it;  now  what  relation 
do  you  think  the  sale  of  liquor  at  dance  halls  or  places  of  that  kind  has 
to  girls_  going  wrong?  A.  It  has  a whole  lot  to  do  with  it.  I don’t 
believe  in  running  that  kind  of  a place.  I think  that  it  has  a whole  lot 
to  do  with  the  downfall  of  girls. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  don’t  think  that  the  two  ought  to  be 
allowed  together?  A.  Oh,  no,  without  a doubt  I should  say  not. 

Godfrey  Johnson’s  Testimony. 

GODFREY  JOHNSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Godfrey  Johnson. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  in?  A.  I am  manager  of  the  Dearborn 
Club  on  North  Clark  Street.  It  is  as  nice  and  orderly  place  as  there  is 
in  the  city  of  Chicago,  barring  none. 

Q.  Suppose  I tell  you  that  two  girls  came  before  this  Committee 
and  traced  their  downfall  directly  to  that  hall,  what  would  you  saj-? 
A.  It  might  be  possible. 

Q.  What  means  are  you  taking  now  to  prevent  a repetition  of  that 
sort  of  a thing?  A.  We  are  using  the  same  means  towards  them  that 
we  always  used.  We  have  got  a floor  manager,  and  I am  myself  on 
the  floor  personally  every  night.  1 don’t  believe  I miss  a night  there. 
I don’t  believe  I have  missed  a night  there  to  speak  of,  well,  in  eiehteen 
years  that  I have  been  there. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  stopped  the  sale  of  into.xicating  liquors 
there?  A.  Two  years  ago. 

Q.  You  haven’t  sold  any  since?  A.  No,  sir;  I will  modif}'  that 
to  say  that  we  have  two  or  three  bar  permis  there;  clubs  run  permits 
on  Thursday. 

Q.  What  do  you  sell?  A.  Soda  water. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  that?  A.  From  the  klanhattan  Bottling 
Company. 

Q.  What  else  do  you  sell?  A.  Lemonade. 

Q.  Make  that  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  else  do  you  have?  A.  Cider. 

Q.  Bottled  cider?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  that?  A.  Manhattan  Bottling  Compan}'. 

Q.  What  else  do  you  sell?  A.  Cocoa-cola. 

Q.  What  else  do  you  sell  there?  A.  I guess  that  is  all. 

Q.  No  alcohol  in  these  so-called  soft  drinks?  A.  None  whatever. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Coan,  or  Mr.  Scouten,  will  3'ou  serve 
a subpoena  upon  the  City  Chemist  forthwith? 

MR.  SCOUTEN:  Do  j'ou  want  it  right  now? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  No,  I would  like  to  have  him  here  at  two 
o’clock  this  afternoon. 

THE  WITNESS:  Mr.  Chairman,  I came  here  for  the  purpose  of 
explaining  how  those  bottles  of  beer  was  obtained.  I was  not  sub- 
poenaed when  I came  here.  I came  here  voluntarih-  and  asked  to  be 
heard.  For  fifteen  j'ears  I sold  liquor  in  that  dance  hall,  and  naturalR 
I was  used  to  having  a bottle  of  beer  or  two  ever}-  evening,  and  probabh- 
ever  since,  and  after  we  discontinued  the  sale  of  liquor  I kept  a case 
of  beer  of  my  own,  which  I thought  was  perfect!}-  proper.  Well,  on 
Friday  evening  two  men  came  in  and  wanted  a drink,  wanted  to  buy 
a soft  drink,  and  the  boy  who  tended  the  bar  happened  to  be  out  for  a 
moment  and  I Stepped  around  behind  the  bar  and  asked  them  what 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


497 


they  wanted,  and  they  said,  “give  us  a bottle  of  Falstaff  beer.”  I said, 
“I  sell  no  beer.”  They  winked  at  each  other,  and  they  said,  “Give  us 
a bottle  of  near-beer.”  At  that  time  we  sold  near-beer,  and  one  of  them 
says,  “What  can  we  have  to  drink?”  and  I says,  “we  can  give  you  near- 
beer,  soda  water,  pop  or  lemonade.”  Just  about  that  time  the  boy  came 
up,  and  I said,  “serve  those  two  gentlemen  to  a glass  of  soda.”  At 
that  time  there  we^  six  or  eight  bottles  of  beer  that  belonged  to  me 
laying  back  of  the  bar  on  ice.  I put  them  there  myself.  As  I was  going 
out,  one  of  the  men  says,  “What  is  that  laying  there?”  I says,  “That’s 
beer,  and  that  is  mine.”  I went  out  of  the  door,  and  I hadn’t  been  out 
of  the  door  more  than  two  or  three  minutes  when  those  two  men  came 
running  on  a gallop  out  and  down  the  stairway.  I went  back  and  asked  the 
man  what  had  happened.  He  says,  “One  of  them  took  a bottle  of  beer 
from  behind  the  bar.”  I think  it  was  a city  officer.  But  I immediately 
wrote  a letter  to  the  sergeant,  telling  the  facts  as  they  were. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  When  did  this  happen?  A.  There 
wasn’t,  I don’t  suppose,  over  eight  or  ten  people  in  the  house. 

Q.  You  don’t  remember  about  the  date?  A.  Why,  I should  judge 
that  is  probably  a month  or  so  ago,  and  I want  to  say  here  to  this  Com- 
mittee that  I understand  my  hall,  my  place  of  business,  has  been  criticised 
and  that  class  of  trade  that  I have  got,  and  I want  to  show  this  Com- 
mittee this,  that  a lot  of  women  have  testified  to  hearsay  evidence  over 
there,  the  so-called  investigators  or  reporters.  A woman  sat  here  and 
read  a card  pertaining  to  my  business  and  this  man’s  business,  and  some- 
body else’s  business  that  didn’t  know  anything  about  it,  just  merely  some- 
one’s report  that  such  and  such  was  the  condition.  Do  you  know  the 
character  of  those  men  that  reported  those  conditions?  Do  you  know 
the  men  who  conduct  business  like  mine?  I have  sold  drinks.  I have 
sold  them,  and  think  it  is  proper  to  sell  drinks  at  dance  halls  under 
proper  conditions.  You  like  to  go  to  a dance  hall  and  you  would  like 
to  have  a drink.  Isn’t  it  proper  for  you  to  have  a drink?  It  does  not 
follow,  it  does  not  signify  because  you  sell  drinks  that  you  must  sell 
them  to  children.  Children  never  were  admitted  to  my  hall.  I leave  it 
to  the  two  senators  here  that  have  investigated  those  conditions.  I will 
ask  you.  Senator  Beall,  if  that  is  not  true? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I have  been  around  a little. 

THE  WITNESS:  I am  asking  you  to  say  if  I had  any  children  in 
my  dance  hall.  They  were  men  and  women,  everyone  of  them.  I had 
a bartender  that  I have  had  for  more  than  seven  years,  and  no  children 
at  any  time  were  admitted.  We  cater  to  men,  to  working  people,  not  to 
children.  I have  complained  to  the  city  of  Chicago  and  not  once,  but 
hundreds  of  times,  about  the  condition  of  Clark  Street.  I have  com- 
plained about  the  condition  of  the  hotel,  and  have  asked  them  time  and 
again  to  detail  officers  to  see  that  no  such  women  came  into  my  place. 
I went  to  the  Chicago  Avenue  station  and  I told  them  that  if  they  con- 
sidered there  was  anything  wrong  about  my  dance  hall  that  I wanted  to 
know  it.  I have  tried  everything  to  run  a respectable  dance  hall.  Mr. 
Bement  says  it  does  not  pay  to  run  a tough  dance  hall.  All  of  the  bad 
names  that  I am  called  is  because  some  of  them  realize  that  I have  made 
some  money,  and  therefore  I am  picked  on.  I will  ask  any  of  you  to  come 
up  at  any  time  and  verify  my  statements. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  think  a girl  of  17  or  18  years  of  age, 
who  does  not  know  anything  about  you  personally,  but  who  has  been 
wronged  and  sold  into  white  slavery  through  an  acquaintance  made  in 
your  dance  hall  comes  before  this  Committee  merely  to  injure  you? 
A.  No,  Governor,  I am  not  speaking  about  any  poor,  unfortunate,  inno- 
cent girls.  Certain  _ conditions  exist  in  that  locality  over  which  I have 
no  control.  This  girl  may  have  come  in  there  and  met  those  two  men. 
Whenever  the  kind  of  a man  you  speak  of  comes  along,  if  we  know  it, 
we  do  not  permit  him  in  the  hall.  Now,  this  man  that  you  have  reference 
to  may  have  been  a decent  man,  a man  whom  I could  not  for  any  reason 
exclude  from  my  hall.  I could  not  afford  to  cater  to  anything  else  but 
a respectable  class  if  I expected  to  be  successful  in  business.  You  must 
prove  that  I cater  to  this  class  of  people  before  I am  accused.  One  of 
these  men  I don’t  know  and  never  saw  him  at  all  until  afterwards.  I 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


made  it  my  business  to  find  out  who  those  men  were,  and  I found  or 
that  one  of  them  is  a successful  business  man,  has  got  a good  barbe 
shop. 

Q.  Is  he  still  running  that  barber  shop?  A.  Yes,  sir,  to  the  bes 
of  my  knowledge.  I have  seen  him  in  there. 

Q.  Is  he  still  a patron  of  your  dance  hall?  A.  No  such  a thing 
you  must  give  me  credit  for  having  a little  better  sense  than  that,  Gov 
ernor.  I want  to  say  this  to  you,  however,  that  I have  seen  this  mai 
in  another  dance  hall  and  I pointed  him  out  there  to  the  proprietor. 

Q.  What  dance  hall  was  that?  A.  Do  I have  to  answer  that? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I saw  him  up  on  Wells  Street  at  the  Lincoln  Park  Hall 
at  Mr.  Wrenshaw’s  place,  and  Mr.  Wrenshaw  objected  to  him  coming 
there,  and  this  man  sent  word  back  to  me  that  he  was  going  to  knocl 
my  head  off  for  doing  what  I did,  and  I says,  “Welcome  to  our  country.’ 

Q.  _ What  do  you  think  about  the  dance  hall  from  a moral  stand- 
point; is  it  a good  thing  for  the  community?  A.  It  is  not  bad. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  a good  thing?  A.  Yes,  it  is  in  a good  many  cases 

I will  give  you  an  instance;  in  my  own  particular  case  we  have  got  ten 
thousand  roomers  in  the  district  between  the  river  and  North  Avenue. 

There  is  probably  (I  am  taking  round  figures  now,  I am  not  sworn  to 

these  figures),  I have  closely  estimated  that  out  of  those  ten  thousand 
young  people  that  is  rooming  in  that  district  there  is  four  thousand  men 
and  probably  six  thousand  women  all  having  little  back  rooms,  the 
majority  of  them,  a dollar  and  a half  or  two  dollar  rooms.  There  is 
probably  only  about  not ‘one-half  of  those  houses  that  are  steam  heated; 
gas-lighted,  some  of  them  probably,  and  some  of  them  not.  We  will  take 
for  instance  a woman  working  at  six  or  seven  or  eight,  or  probably  up 
to  twelve  hours  a day;  she  comes  home  at  night  to  a cold  room,  when 
for  fifteen  cents,  or  twenty-five  cents,  she  can  go  in  a nice  warm  place 
and  find  companions,  companions  that  she  cannot  entertain  in  the  house 
that  she  is  roomig  in.  We  will  say  that  a man  of  family,  for  instance 
where  there  is  three  or  four  grown  girls  in  the  family,  from  sixteen  to 
twenty-four  years  old,  they  are  living  in  a small  apartment,  living  in  a flat 
of  probably  four  or  five  rooms;  each  one  of  those  daughters,  if  they 
brought  their  sweethearts  home  would  be  entitled  to  entertain  their 
sweetheart  one  Sunday,  alternately,  we  will  say  one  Sunday  in  five.  She 
can’t_  do  that.  Now,  where  is  she  going  to  go?  Where  is  a w'orking 
girl  in  a rooming  house  to  go  to  entertain  her  sweetheart?  She  has  to 
go  in  the  back  room  of  some  saloon,  or  into  some  place  where  drinks 
are  sold.  You  can  easily  see  the  situation.  Those  are  conditions  that 
dance  halls  are  not  to  blame  for.  and  it  is  for  that  reason  I say  that  in 
a good  many  instances  dance  halls  are  a good  thing  for  the  community, 
especially  if  they  are  conducted  rightly.  I do  not  believe  in  liquor  being 
sold  in  connection  with  dance  halls;  that  should  be  cut  out  in  all  dance 
halls. 

Q.  What  makes  girls  go  wrong?  A.  Nature;  bad  principles. 

Q.  Altogether?  A.  I say  nature;  next  I believe  it  is  the  fault  of 
the  parents  in  bringing  them  up.  They  do  not  know  that  thej^  are  doing 
wrong.  They  don’t  look  at  it  in  the  manner  that  you  gentlemen  are 
looking  at  it.  They  don’t  know  any  better;  they  have  no  example  before 
them.  They  do  not  give  their  children  the  proper  surroundings,  do 
not  give  them  the  proper  teaching.  They  let  them  do  as  thej^  please. 

Q.  What  percentage  of  alcohol  is  there  in  beer?  A.  Six  per  cent, 
I believe. 

Q.  Six  per  cent?  A.  I would  not  answer  that;  I have  heard  it 
and  have  known  it,  but  I would  not  answer  it;  between  five  arid  sixr 
they  vary.  There  are  some  beers  that  are  stronger  than  that,  and  I want 
to  say  this,  that  I sold  what  we  called  “near-beer,”  after  my  license  was 
taken  away  for  a while,  but  I done  away  with  that,  too,  to  avoid  criticism. 

Q.  When  did  you  do  away  with  that?  A.  Probably  two  months 
ago.  Somewheres  along  in  there,  we  done  away  with  that.  The  statute 
does  not  require  license  for  the  sale  of  any  alcoholic  drink  containing 
less  than  two  per  cent,  but  the  government  does,  so  I had  a government 
license.  I had  the  right  to  sell  it. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


499 


I SENATOR  WOODARD:  Your  government  license  run  out  and  you 
Jidn’t  renew  it?  A.  No,  I had  a government  license;  it  was  taken  out  in 
Tly,  the  first  of  July;  that  don’t  expire  until  next  July.  I took  one  out  last 
;ummer,  when  I was  selling  this  near-beer. 

Q.  What  protection  are  you  taking  to  protect  girls  from  white 
jlavers?  A.  We  have  the  same  system  that  we  have  always  had;  we  have 
jeen  pretty  careful  about  that;  we  know  the  situation  that  we  are  in. 

Q.  How  many  people  have  you  in  your  dance  halls  now?  A.  I have 
>ne  floor  manager  at  the  present  time  when  we  are  not  selling  any  drinks; 
it  the  time  we  were  selling  drinks  we  had  two  men  upstairs.  My  building 
ionsists  bf  two  floors. 

; Q.  How  long  had  you  been  in  business  there,  Mr.  Johnson?  A. 
Eighteen  years. 

Q.  During  those  eighteen  years  did  you  ever  find  any  public  officials, 
or  police  officials,  that  you  could  reach?  A.  I would  like  to  have  you 
explain  yourself.  Governor;  do  you  mean  to  say  or  are  you  asking  me  if  I 
had  ever  put  up  any  money  for  protection? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Absolutely  no;  I had  no  business  that  I had  to  do 
that  for. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  say  you  used  to  sell  liquors?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  for  sixteen  years.  Senator. 

Q.  Has  it  ever  come  under  your  observation  of  any  girls  going  wrong 
on  account  of  your  selling  liquor?  A.  Not  to  my  pesonal  knowledge, 
no.  Wait  until  I explain  that  to  you.  Senator.  When  I say  selling  liquor, 
when  I was  selling  liquor  there  I had  four  or  five  floor  men;  I was  the 
general  supervisor  and  did  not  come  much  in  contact  with  the  girls  per- 
sonally. 

I Q.  What  is  your  experience  with  that — did  more  of  them  go  wrong 
iwhen  you  were  selling  liquor  than  when  you  were  not  selling  liquor?  A. 
I could  not  answer  that;  if  they  don’t  get  the  liquor  in  my  dance  hall  they 
will  go  out  and  get  it  if  they  want  to. 

Q.  It  is  a better  dance  hall  for  not  selling  it?  A.  I believe  so,  yes, 
sir.  That  is,  not  from  a financial  standpoint,  but  from  a moral  standpoint 
I believe  that  liquor  should  not  be  sold  in  dance  halls  in  Chicago. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Will  you  please  tell  the  Committee  about  the 
night  that  I called  on  you  and  inspected  your  place?  A.  Yes,  the  Sena- 
tors called  and  inspected  my  place.  I didn’t  know  them.  I saw  a couple 
of  distinguished  looking  gentlemen  standing  up  there,  and  I says,  “Those 
men  must  be  here  for  some  other  purpose  than  to  dance,  and  I think  I will 
cultivate  their  acquaintance,’’  and  I went  up  to  you  and  shook  hands  and 
said,  “How  do  you  do?’’  And  I asked  you.  Senator,  to  look  these  people 
over  and  see  if  there  was  any  young  girls.  I think  that  was  about  the 
substance  of  the  conversation.  I asked  if  they  were  not  all  men  and  women. 

. I asked  you  if  you  saw  anyone  there  that  looked  like  the  sort  of  women 
that  should  not  be  there.  I asked  you  if  you  did  not  think,  in  your  opinion, 
if  they  were  not  nice  working  girls,  and  I offered  to  call  one  of  them  off 
the  floor. 

Q.  Tell  about  the  man  in  the  center  of  the  floor.  A.  Oh,  yes,  we 
have  a floor  manager.  I must  say,  my  room  is  only  fifty  by  ninety,  and 
a man  can  stand  in  the  center  of  the  floor  and  observe  everybody  in  the 
house.  This  man  in  the  center  of  the  floor  is  there  to  see  that  everything 
is  correct,  that  everybody  dances  correctly;  that  there  is  nothing  im- 
proper goes  on  on  the  floor  of  the  hall. 

Q.  Do  you  make  as  much  now  in  your  dance  hall  since  you  cut  out 
the  sale  of  liquor  as  you  did  before?  A.  Certainly  not. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  think  your  business  fell  off?  A.  About  thirty- 
three  per  cent. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Is  it  on  the  increase  or  decrease  now?  A.  I 
don’t  understand  that:  it  fell  off  about  thirty-three  per  cent  after  we  quit 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


selling  drinks;  we  are  increasing  a little  bit  now — it  was  after  we  first  took 
the  bar  away. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  think  that  you  will  gain  in  business 
enough  after  a while  from  people  that  would  not  go  before  when  you  had 
liquor  for  sale,  that  you  will  gain  it  all  back  in  time?  A.  That  is  the 
reason  I am  staying  there  now.  I believe  that  after  people  in  general  find 
out  that  drinks  are  riot  sold,  that  quite  a different  class  of  trade  will  come 
there  and  we  will  do  business.  There  is  two  different  kinds  of  trade  in 
the  dancing  line.  One  class  is  that  which  goes  only  to  those  bar  dances; 
another  one  goes  to  these  other  kind  of  dances.  If  you  will  allow  me  to  say 
something,  I will  say  this,  that  you  are  on  the  right  track  so  far  as  those 
club  dances  are  concerned,  but  you  don’t  go  far  enough.  Club  dances  are 
usually  run  by  a few — a half  dozen  young  fellows  sixteen  or  seventeen 
or  eighteen  years  of  age  get  together  and  call  themselves  a club.  They 
rent  a hall,  give  a small  deposit  of  five  or  ten  dollars  and  give  a dance. 

I have  had  a lot  of  opportunities  to  take  the  same  kind  of  money,  but  I 
have  always  refused  it.  They  will  give  five  or  ten  dollars  as  a deposit 
for  the  hall.  Two  or  three  dollars  more  given  as  a deposit  on  the  print- 
ing— some  printer  whom  they  know  will  print  ten  thousand  complimentary 
tickets  at  about  sixty  cents  a thousand,  which  is  six  dollars.  Then  they 
will  scatter  those  complimentary  tickets  all  around  throughout  the  neigh- 
borhood— usually  throughout  the  neighborhood  where  there  is  a lot  of 
young  girls.  Those  boys  have  no  investment  in  it,  and  nothing  to  lose; 
no  reputation  and  nothing  else  at  stake.  They  open  up  this  hall  and  they 
sell  beer.  And  along  come  girls  fourteen,  fifteen,  sixteen  or  eighteen,  it 
doesn’t  matter  what  age  they  are — they  are  there  to  take  all  of  the  money 
that  they  can  get  in  that  night.  I have  probably  an  investment  up  there 
of  thirty-five  or  forty  thousand  dollars.  I have  got  an  established  busi- 
ness. Gentlemen,  I can’t  afford  to  take  those  chances.  I can’t  afford  to 
take  this  kind  of  money  that  they  are  taking.  That  is  one  kind  of  a dance. 
1 am  going  to  tell  you  about  another  kind  of  a dance,  and  that  is  the  so- 
called  respected  organization  and  societies.  1 had  a hall  on  Randolph 
street — 75  Randolph  street — at  one  time  that  was  used  exclusively'  for 
renting;  it  rented  to  labor  organizations,  so-called  good  organizations,  social 
organizations  of  the  better  class.  A lot  of  men  was  appointed  on  the 
various  committees,  usually  with  big  badges  on,  but  I found  as  a rule  that 
those  men  on  those  committees  were  the  very  first  ones  in  the  hall  to  get 
tanked  when  the  drinks  were  served.  Those  men  often  brought  with  them 
their  wives  and  their  children,  and  I have  often  seen  the  old  lady  on  the 
one  side  and  probably  a couple  of  children  on  the  other,  taking  their  hus- 
band and  father  home.  I believe  you  gentlemen  have  seen  the  same 
thing,  if  you  want  to  admit  it. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I understood  y'ou  said  first  y'ou  ought  to  have 
liquor  at  dance  halls  and  then  y'Ou  said  that  you  believe  that  in  time  you 
will  secure  a trade,  a good  respectable  trade,  that  won’t  mix  with  people 
that  drink;  you  will  have  a more  respectable  house  and  you  will  get  back- 
more  than  you  ever  had  before?  A.  I believe  so.  I guess  you  mis- 
understood me.  I said  that  liquor  sold  under  proper  conditions  I be- 
lieved to  be  all  right.  Take  the  room  that  I served  my  liquor  in:  it  is 
as  large  as  this  room  in  here.  It  was  open.  We  served  those  liquors  on 
the  floor  and  there  were  men  in  the  center  of  the  floor  all  the  time  to  see 
that  nothing  improper  went  on.  These  same  girls  go  to  a dance,  we  don’t 
serve  liquor  to  them  now;  they  will  come  up  to  the  dance  just  the  same; 
then  they  go  out  to  some  side  entrance  and  go  in  the  back  room  of  some 
saloon,  after  they  leave  the  dance,  and  the  result  is  that  they  go  home — 
if  they  go  home  at  all — very  much  under  the  influence  of  liquor,  and  from 
that  point  of  view  I think  it  is  better  to  have  drinks  sold  in  connection 
with  a dance  hall  under  proper  regulations  than  that  they  should  go  into 
the  back  room  of  some  saloon  without  any  regulations  whatever. 

Q.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  regulate.  A.  I believe  that  a little  liquor 
should  be  served.  I believe  beer  could  be  served  without  any  harm,  but  I 
believe  that  whiskey  cocktails,  highballs  and  so  forth  should  never  be  sold 
to  girls.  I believe  that  a malt  license  would  be  a happy  medium  between 
beer  and  no  beer  at  those  places.  They  clamor  for  drinks. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  appear  before  the  Chicago  \ ice 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


SOI 


Commission?  A.  I did  not.  I was  not  asked.  I saw  some  of  their  in- 
vestigators, however. 

Q.  Did  they  mention  your  place  in  their  report?  A.  I believe  they 
did,  and  very  unfavorably. 

Q.  What  did  they  say  about  you?  A.  They  said  everything  that  they 
could  find  in  the  dictionary,  I guess.  I believe  that  their  investigators 
were  unreliable.  *I  have  nothing  to  hide  and  nothing  to  deny. 

Q.  They  gave  you  a pretty  black  eye?  A.  They  did,  and  it  has  stuck 
to  me  ever  since. 

Q.  But  you  are  beginning  to  see  the  light?  A.  I am  beginning  to 
see  it. 

Q.  From  your  testimony  this  morning  it  would  seem  you  now  realize 
there  is  more  money  in  running  an  unquestionably  respectable  dance  hall 
than  there  is  in  running  a disreputable  one?  A.  I have  not  admitted  that 
I run  a disreputable  dance  hall. 

Q.  You  are  a very  careful  man  and  you  are  not  admitting  anything 
before  this  Committee  that  you  think  will  hurt  you.  Is  it  your  opinion, 
then,  that  you  will  make  more  money  by  running  a good  place  than  by 
running  a disreputable  one?  A.  Not  any  more;  I say  I might  make  as 
much. 

Q.  If  you  make  as  much,  you  will  have  at  least  a clear  conscience? 
A.  I always  have  a clear  conscience. 

THE  WITNESS;  I want  to  thank  this  Committee  for  this  oppor- 
tunity, that  is  all.  This  is  the  first  time  anybody  ever  tried  to  give  me  a 
hearing,  to  give  me  a chance  to  have  my  say.  It  has  always  been  the  other 
way.  The  other  fellow  did  all  the  talking.  They  have  been  afraid  of  me; 
they  have  been  afraid  that  I will  tell  the  truth. 

Whereupon  the  meeting  was  adjourned  to  Monday  morning,  April 
14,  1913,  at-  10:00  o’clock  A.  M.  of  said  day. 


I '■  H 


n-’v  'T  '■  i';' 

, »y.i*  t.ticf, 


■ ' it- 


/ 


SESSION  XIX 


i a 


ij  I The  owner  of  a cafe  that  was  closed,  upon  request  of  the  Vice 
; Committee,  by  the  Mayor  of  Chicago,  is  given  a hearing  by  the 

I Committee  and  promises  to  make  any  suggested  reforms  in  the 

■ conduct  of  his  place  if  his  license  is  restored.  A police  sergeant 
' i of  long  experience  in  the  vice  district  gives  his  testimony.  Saloon- 
' 1*  keepers  and  dance  hall  proprietors  dispute  evidence  gathered  by 
I'  the  Committee’s  investigators.  A clergyman  devoted  to  reform 
!:  *,  work  describes  his  experiences  and  promises  to  bring  proof  of 
. payments  of  protection  money  by  resort  keepers.  Opinions  of  a 

jl  - St.  Louis  investigator  as  to  the  causes  of  vice.  Testimony  of: 

ji  ' Roy  Jones,  cafe  proprietor; 

[ji  V Wm.  F.  Bowler,  police  sergeant; 

) R.  Fozzo,  saloonkeeper; 

Hi  ' Dr,  Carl  Quale,  investigator; 

{■  Wm.  J.  Schoen,  dance  hall  proprietor; 

{i  Wm.  Shemberg,  saloonkeeper; 

1:  Rev.  Elmer  Williams,  pastor,  Christ  M.  E.  Church; 

j E.  J.  Howse,  special  investigator  for  City  of  St.  Louis. 

Chicago,  April  14,  1913,  10:00  o’clock  A.  M. 

La  Salle  Hotel. 

THE  ILLINOIS  SENATE  VICE  COMMITTEE  met  pursuant 
to  last  adjournment;  Chairman  O’Hara  and  Senators  Beall  and  Tossey 
being  the  only  members  present,  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

iRoy  Jones’  Testimony. 

ROY  JONES,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  My  name  is  Roy 
Jones. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  in,  Mr.  Jones?  A.  Cafe  and  restaurant 
business. 

Q.  You  have  heard  of  the  evidence  given  before  this  Committee  con- 
cerning that  cafe?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I heard  of  it;  I was  away  at  the  time,  and 
|I  just  got  back  last  Saturday. 

' Q.  You  had  some  pretty  tough  dances  down  there?  A.  If  there 
was,  it  was  really  unbeknown  to  me.  I never  approved  of  anything  such 
as  that  there.  I wish  to  run  as  clean  a’  place  there  as  anybody  can. 

' Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  business  down  there?  A.  I have  been 
|in  business  there  twenty  months,  and  I never  had  a complaint  against 
jmy  place  in  all  those  twenty  months. 

Q.  How  long  had  that  place  been  run  before  you  took  charge  of  it? 
jA.  I don’t  know. 

j Q.  Who  owned  the  place  before  you  took  charge  of  it?  A.  Jack 
Jordan  owned  it. 

i Q.  Did  he  go  out  of  business?  A.  No,  he  is  in  business  across  the 
'Street. 

Q.  Is  the  red-light  district  closed  now?  A.  I believe  it  is. 

Q.  Where  did  all  those  women  go?  A.  Well,  they  are  pretty  well 
scattered  now;  there  is  a few  once  in  a while  that  drop  around,  but  they 
,are  fairly  well  scattered  all  over  Chicago. 


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504  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  scattered,  that  they  have  gone  into  the 
residence  district?  A.  A whole  lot  of  them  have;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear,  Mr.  Jones,  of  any  establishment  to  which  good 
girls  were  lured  and  then  sold  to  wealthy  men  for  so  much  a head?  A. 
No,  I have  not. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  such  a thing  exists  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 
A.  No,  I don’t;  I really  don’t. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  the  turkey  trot  or  tango?  A.  Well,  I 
think  it  is  just  what  people  make  it;  they  may  either  make  it  suggestive  or 
otherwise.  There  is  a whole  lot  of  people  that  imagine  things  are  sug- 
gestive and  you  can’t  modify  it  so  that  it  is  not  suggestive  to  them  at  all. 
It  is  danced  on  every  stage  in  the  United  States.  There  is  a lot  of  ways, 
of  course,  of  grasping  a girl  so  that  a lot  of  people  may  construe  it  as 
suggestive.  It  is  not  suggestive  to  a liberal-minded  man;  it  might  be  to  a 
narrow-minded  man;  to  a girl  of  seventeen  or  eighteen  or  nineteen,  it 
would  be  quite  a novelty  to  her.  It  is  really  a difficult  dance.  One  has 
to  be  a real  clever  dancer  to  dance  it;  you  have  got  to  be  a good  dancer 
to  dance  it. 

Q.  Who  employs  those  negro  performers  you  have  down  at  3mur 

place?  A.  Why,  I put  them  all  in  the  charge  of  a man  by  the  name  of 

Dorsey,  who  has  employed  them  since  I left.  I really  don’t  know.  I 
have  been  away  off  and  on  for  ten  weeks. 

Q.  Well,  who  is  in  charge  during  your  absence?  A.  In  my  absence 
a gentleman  by  the  name  of  Carvin.  I will  admit  that  he  might  have 
permitted  a lot  of  things  that  I would  not  have  approved  if  I was  in  there, 
you  know;  just  used  a little  bad  judgment  when  I was  gone,  but  I never 
approved  of  suggestive  dances  or  suggestive  singing  in  there. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Ike  Bloom?  A.  I do. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  He  is  manager  of  the  dance  hall. 

Q.  What  dance  hall?  A.  At  22nd  street — Freiburg’s. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  Marlborough  Hotel?  A,  The  Marlborough  Ho- 
tel at  22nd  street,  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I know  of  it;  I don’t  know  it. 

Q.  Who  owns  that  hotel?  A.  Some  woman  owns  it  by  the  name  of 
LaSalle,  I believe;  I know  she  used  to  own  it. 

Q.  Is  there  any  connection  at  all  between  Freiburg’s  dance  hall  and 
the  Marlborough  Hotel?  A.  I am  sure  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  that  there  was?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know,  I don’t 
believe  I have.  It  is  possible,  though. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  that  at  any  cafe  in  the  Twentj'-second  Street 
district  girls  have  been  discharged  for  refusing  to  take  men  to  a certain 
hotel?  A.  Well,  no,  I haven’t;  I will  tell  jmu  now,  I have  not  run  one 
of  that  kind  of  places.  I have  been  running  an  altogether  different  place; 
my  business  is  almost  all  automobile  business.  I don’t  get  out  of  mj-  place 
when  I am  in  town  once  a month;  I live  away  out  of  the  neighborhood, 
down  south;  I don’t  run  around  the  neighborhood.  I haven’t  been  around 
in  any  of  the  dance  halls,  well,  in,  I should  judge,  over  a 3'ear. 

Q.  Some  of  the  business,  Mr.  Jones,  j-ou  saj^  j'ou  appeal  to  is  slum- 
ming parties  and  automobile  parties  passing  through  that  district?  A. 
No,  I don’t;  I don’t  cater  to  those  slumming  paries.  I have  a nice,  steady 
trade  there;  I have  people  who  have  been  coming  there  over  a year;  it  is 
an  automobile  business  strictly.  Thej'  come  from  downtown  to  my-  cafe 
and  from  my  cafe  out  south. 

Q.  One  can  take  a girl  out  there,  say  seventeen  or  eighteen  years 
old,  and  get  in?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why?  A.  I would  not  allow  her  in  if  the  girl  looked  young  to 

me. 

Q.  Suppose  she  were  eighteen  or  nineteen?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Who  would  stop  her?  A.  If  I was  there  I would  stop  her. 

Q.  You  haven’t  been  there  in  the  last  ten  weeks?  A.  No,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


505 


Q.  If  you  were  away,  who  would  stop  her?  A.  Mr.  Carvin  would 
top  her;  he  has  orders  not  even  to  let  those  young  fellows  in. 

Q.  You  don’t  have  any  young  girls  there  at  all?  A.  Not  one. 

Q.  Don’t  you  permit  girls  in  there  of  eighteen  or  nineteen  years  of 
'age?  A.  Oh,  no. 

i Q.  Suppose  the  girl  is  21  years  of  age?  A.  Well,  if  she  was  escorted 
and  she  looked  plenty  old  enough,  I would  let  her  in. 

' Q.  Now,  she  is  a good  girl,  she  is  21,  and  she  is  in  your  place,  we 
jwill  say;  there  is  some  moral  responsibility  on  your  part,  as  the  proprietor 
!of  that  cafe,  to  see  that  the  dances  that  you  stage  are  not  vulgar?  A.  Oh, 
yes. 

j Q.  And  that  the  songs  are  not  vulgar?  A.  Oh,  yes,  there  is  no  argu- 
;ment  to  that.  I always  do  when  I am  here.  I never  have  my  enter- 
itainers  ever  sing  unless  it  is  sung  to  me  first.  There  is  many  a song  that 
I have  heard  sung  that  I haven’t  let  them  sing  in  there,  that  has  been 
“sung  in  different  places  aroimd  town. 

Q.  The  truth  is,  they  were  singing  there  at  the  time  that  our  investi- 
[gators  visited  your  place  last  week,  to  the  music  of  a popular  song,  words 
that  were  so  obscene  that  I did  not  care  to  pronounce  them  Before  a com- 
:pany  of  men;  now,  where  does  the  responsibility  for  that  rest?  A.  The 
responsibility  rests  on  Mr.  Carvin,  because  that  is  the  one  thing  that  he 
had  no  right  to  permit  in  there.  Those  kind  of  suggestive  songs  would  not 
do  for  my  class  of  trade  in  there;  it  would  keep  a whole  lot  of  trade  out 
of  there  which  would  not  come  in  there  if  such  songs  were  sung  there. 


Q.  Senator  Beall  was  at  your  place  a week  or  two  ago  and  he  found 
one  of  these  negro  women  dancing,  and  a negro  man  laying  on  the  floor 
presumably  looking  under  the  woman’s  dress.  How  do  you  account  for 
such  a thing  as  that?  A.  I can’t  account  for  it.  I would  not  stand  for 
it  if  I was  there. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  stop  that?  A.  I would  not  permit  it. 

Q.  Well,  ARE  you  going  to  stop  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  going  to  clean  it  up?  A.  Yes,  sir,  positively.  During  the 
twenty  months  that  I have  been  there,  I have  never  had  a complaint 
against  my  place. 

Q.  Do  you  realize  that  good  morals  in  a place  of  that  sort  is  good 
business?  A.  That  has  always  been  my  practice  there;  always  has  been. 

Q.  It  wasn’t  here  last  week.  A.  Gentlemen,  I am  awful  sorry  that 
that  happened.  It  must  have  been  that  somebody  got  awful  neglectful. 
I don’t  approve  of  anything  like  that;  I really  don’t. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  the  old  Twenty-second  Street  district  is 
cleaned  out?  A.  Oh,  yes,  positively. 

Q.  How  long  will  it  take  to  clean  it  up?  A.  It  is  pretty  well  cleaned 
up  now,  so  far  as  disorderly  houses  and  things  like  that  are  concerned. 
There  might  be  a disorderly  flat  here  and  there  scattered  around. 

Q.  Is  the  Marlborough  Hotel  still  open?  A.  I don’t  know;  I have 
only  been  back  since  Saturday,  then  Monday  after  I got  back  my  mother 
was  taken  sick  and  I have  been  home  since.  I haven’t  had  a chance  to 
talk  to  anybody,  or  see  anybody,  or  anything  else. 

Q.  You  know  the  district,  you  know  its  influence,  you  know  of  lots  of 
things  that  you  are  not  going  to  testify  here  today.  A.  I am  telling  you 
I haven’t  been  on  the  other  side  of  Wabash  avenue  in  a year  back.  I 
haven’t  been  on  the  other  side  of  Wabash  avenue.  I am  on  the  northeast 
side  of  Wabash  avenue,  and  I haven’t  been  even  across  the  street  in  that 
time.  I was  the  happiest  man  to  get  out  of  it,  and  I am  out  of  it,  and 
there  has  never  been  any  attractions  in  it  for  me  since.  I really  thought 
that  I had  succeeded.  I had  a nice  class  of  people  coming  in  my  place, 
and  I have  never  had  a fight  in  my  place  in  the  twenty  months  since  I 
have  been  there,  and  that  is  a remarkable  record  for  a cafe. 

Q.  You  haven’t  had  a fight  for  how  long?  A.  Twenty  months. 

Q.  That  is  a remarkable  record?  A,  Yes,  sir,  haven’t  had  a fight 
there;  and  haven’t  sold  to  intoxicated  people,  either. 


506  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Do  they  frequently  have  fights  in  some  of  the  cafes?  A.  Ye< 
there  used  to  be  an  awful  lot  of  fights. 

Q-  Did  you  ever  hear  of  anybody  being  killed  in  your  neighborhoo' 
in  the  last  year,  we  will  say?  A.  No,  I could  not  say  that  I ever  have 

Q.  Or  in  the  last  three  months?  A.  No,  I have  heard  of  a mai 
who  was  picked  up  unconscious  on  Wabash  avenue,  who  was  supposei 
to  have  been  beaten  up  in  one  of  those  cafes  or  in  front  of  it.  I didn’ 
pay  much  attention  to  it,  because  it  was  just  rumor.  I didn’t  know  posi 
tively  that,  but  I think  fights  in  these  kind  of  places  can  be  very  easib 
avoided  by  not  selling  to  intoxicated  people. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  sell  to  intoxicated  people?  A.  Not  in  my  life;  no 
since  I have  been  there. 

Q.  Is  it  a matter  of  good  morals  or  good  business?  A.  It  is  a mat 
ter  of  good  morals.  I think  when  a man  has  drank  so  much,  it  is  his  placi 
to  be  home. 

Q.  In  all  those  places  in  your  district,  do  they  have  solicitors,  girl; 
in  their  place,  to  solicit?  A.  Well,  I don’t  think  so;  not  around  me.  ! 
know;  not  right  in  my  neighborhood  there. 

Q.  If  you  know  of  such  a thing  you  would  not  care  to  say  so,  wouk 
you?  Let  us  be  honest  with  each  other.  A.  To  tell  you  the  truth,  ] 
would  not. 

Q.  Any  questions  of  that  nature  that  I might  ask  you,  j'ou  would  hav( 
a bad  memory  on,  or  would  not  know  about  it?  A.  Well,  I would  no; 
lie  to  you  on  it. 

Q.  Well,  you  would  avoid  the  issue?  A.  I would  try  to  if  I possibh 
could. 

Q.  I have  asked  you  just  a few  questions  from  much  evidence  verifiec 
by  this  committee,  but  I did  not  expect  you  to  answer  very  satisfactorily.  A 
I would  not  want  to  be  put  in  the  light  of  abusing  my  neighbors. 

Q.  How  much  money  are  you  worth?  A.  How  much  money  am  1 
w'orth  ? 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Well,  my  home  is  mortaged  for  sixty-five  hundred  dollars 
my  mother  is  living  in  it  with  four  children,  and  I haven’t  got  a dollar  ir 
the  world. 

Q.  How  much  have  you  made  in  the  last  ten  j-ears?  A.  I haven’t  made 
a dollar  in  four  years.  ’ 

Q.  Has  this  place  been  making  any  money  for  you?  A.  It  was  just 
getting  on  a basis  where  I was  making  a little  money;  just  on  a basis  where  I 
was  making  on  an  average  of  five  hundred  dollars  a month. 

Q.  What  were  you  paying  those  ten  negro  men  and  women  performers 
down  there?  A.  I paid  them  from  twenty-five  dollars  to  thirty-five  dollars  a 
week  apiece ; they  vary  in  price  more  or  less.  They  are  the  only  talent  you 
can  handle,  you  can  handle  them  a good  deal  better  than  the  white  talent  out 
there.  The  white  talent  are  awful  unreliable  in  places  like  that,  don’t  you 
know,  and  they  are  awful  hard  to  get  along  with.  They  abuse  customers  that 
come  in  and  try  to  get  acquainted  with  too  many  girls  that  come  in  the  place. 
A gentleman  comes  in  with  an  escort,  and  the  minute  their  back  is  turned 
one  of  the  entertainers  is  up  to  the  table  singing  directly  to  that  girl.  I 
don’t  approve  of  that.  I approve  of  singing  on  the  platform,  or  the  little 
space  in  the  floor  that  is  provided  for  that  purpose,  and  in  their  minding 
their  own  business  strictly. 

Q.  Do  they  practice  table  singing  down  there?  A.  Oh,  no.  The  white 
entertainers  always  did. 

Q.  Where  do  the  negro  entertainers  sing?  A.  They  sing  in  the  center  of 
the  space.  Right  in  front  of  the  music  there  is  a little  space  left  between 
two  rows  of  tables  for  them  to  work  in,  and  they  can’t  work  out  of  that 
space. 

Q.  But  the  Senator  says  they  don’t  do  it.  He  says  they  walk  the  entire 
length  of  the  floor?  A.  Yes,  .there  is  a space  between  the  tables  about  ten 
feet  long,  and  there  is  where  thej''  work. 


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507 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL : She  walked  up  about  two-thirds  the  length  of  the 
oom,  this  colored  woman  did,  and  Senator  Tossey  saw  that  at  the  same  time 
;iat  I did. 

MR.  JONES:  If  she  did  that,  she  did  it  unbeknown  to  me.  I would 
ot  have  stood  for  that.  I always  have  a space  for  them  to  work  right  in 
etween  the  two  rows  of  tables.  Of  course,  they  might  have  done  some  naughty 
umbers  while  I was  away;  they  surely  must  have. 

SENATOR  BEALL ; I am  of  the  impression  that  you  haven’t  given  close 
aough  attention  to  your  business.  A.  No,  sir,  I haven’t.  I have  been  sick 
nd  have  neglected  it  a lot.  I have  had  a lot  of  sickness  at  home.  I have  been 
'ck  myself  and  my  business  has  been  neglected.  My  manager  was  there,  but 
■le  chances  are  that  he  has  been  neglecting  it. 

^ SENATOR  BEALL:  If  your  manager  had  come  out  and  told  the  truth 
bout  the  matter ! He  knew  better,  but  he  didn’t  do  it ; neither  in  the  case 
/hen  I was  there  or  the  case  when  the  investigators  were  out  there  Friday 
'ight.  Four  of  them  were  there,  and  I am  under  the  impression  that  he  knew 
e wasn’t  telling  the  truth.  A.  He  ought  not  to  have  done  that.  I never  knew 
e was  subpoenaed,  never  knew  it.  I was  up  in  Milwaukee  at  the  time. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  were  here  that  night,  weren’t  you?  A. 
'he  night  he  was  subpoenaed? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No. 

; Q.  The  night  he  testified?  A.  No,  I got  in  the  next  day. 
j SENATOR  BEALL;  Mr.  Jones,  I have  always  been  on  the  side  of  the 
iyeak;  now,  we  have  not  come  here  to  Chicago  to  tear  down,  but  to  build  up. 
ijVe  were  out  Saturday  night  again  until  one  o’clock  visiting.  I don’t  know 
■ow  many  institutions,  but  a good  many.  Of  course  some  of  them  recognized 
}s  right  away,  others  didn’t.  Everything  they  had  was  very  tame,  I can 

■ ’ay  that  much.  Of  course,  they  were  expecting  something,  and  were 
F ifraid  of  something. 

MR.  JONES:  Sure. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  And  I had  a talk  with  several  managers,  different 
’nes,  I don’t  remember  the  names,  there  were  so  many  of  them,  and  I told 
' hem  that  no  one  would  have  objection  to  decent  dances. 

1 MR.  JONES:  No,  surely  not. 

^ SENATOR  BEALL;  And  nobody  has,  provided  it  is  carried  on  right, 
•ecause  young  girls  unquestionably  have  got  to  have  some  kind  of  amusement, 
lut  in  all  of  my  travels,  and  I have  been  to  a good  many  places,  and  in  all 
'if  the  places  that  I have  been  to,  your  place  was  the  worst  I ever  saw  in  my 
jife.  I wanted  to  find  out  about  it.  Three  weeks  ago  you  had  a colored  woman 
: ihere  going  up  and  down  the  floor,  I don’t  know  what  her  name  is,  exposing 
r lerself  to  a man  on  the  floor  making  all  kinds  of  gestures,  suggestive,  such 
tls  putting  their  bodies  together,  and  all  that,  and  when  I came  back  I told  the 
governor  what  was  going  on,  in  fact  Senator  Tossey  was  with  me.  Still  noth- 
' ng  was  done  about  it  until  Friday  night  we  sent  four  investigators  out  there, 
'.nd  they  came  back  and  reported  a worse  condition  out  there  than  I had 
”een,  so  all  they  could  do  was  to  subpoena  them  to  come  in,  and  your  young 
I itian  denied  everything  to  us.  If  he  had  come  out  and  told  the  truth,  if  he  had 
f ’.cknowledged  it,  but  he  didn’t  do  it ; he  denied  everything,  but  six  of  us  knew 
r letter.  A.  I am  awful  sorry  that  he  done  that,  of  course  it  is  too  late  now. 
!'  Q.  I suppose  you  have  got  some  money  invested  there?  A.  Every  dollar 
’ I have  in  the  world  is  invested  there. 

'j  Q.  How  much  have  you  got  invested?  A.  Twenty-two  thousand  dollars. 
[ SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  suppose  if  the  Mayor  of  Chicago  should 
inflow  you  to  open  again  out  there,  that  you  would  open  a good,  clean  house 
,ind  keep  it  clean? 

!j  MR.  JONES;  Yes,  sir,  positively.  Any  suggestions  which  this  Committee 
'fvould  make  I would  live  up  to. 

I SENATOR  BEALL;  Please  remember  that  this  Committee  is  appointed 
!’or  two  years,  as  I told  your  man  Saturday  night ; of  course  you  are  fixed  for 

■ |is  tonight,  but  you  can’t  tell  what  moment  we  will  have  one  of  our  investi- 

I 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


gators  here,  and  the  Mayor  of  Chicago,  I am  under  the  impression,  is  going  to 
work  with  us.  The  fact  of  the  matter  is,  you  see  how  promptly  he  acted  Satur- 
day morning.  He  telephoned  the  Governor.  No,  we  don’t  want  to  see  any 
man  ruined;  you  say  that  all  of  your  money  is  invested  there? 

MR.  JONES:  I am  ruined,  even  my  home  at  Milwaukee  is  mortgaged. 
I have  a mother  69  years  old  raising  four  children,  and  the  youngest  is  seven 
years  of  age. 

Q.  If  the  Governor  would  appoint  one  or  more  of  this  Committee  to  go 
and  have  a talk  with  Mayor  Harrison,  would  you  enter  into  a bond  that  you 
would  keep  a clean,  orderly  house  provided  they  would  grant  your  license 
back?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I don’t  say  that  he  will,  but  he  is  the  boss.  A.  I would  do  anything 
that  the  Committee  would  suggest  for  me  to  do,  no  matter  what  it  is. 

Q.  We  have  no  right  to  suggest.  A.  I will  do  anything  this  Committee 
wants  me  to  do. 

SENATOR  BEALL ; We  are  not  in  power  here,  the  Mayor  of  the  city  is 
in  power,  and  we  have  nothing  to  say  whether  your  license  is  granted  or  revoked, 
but  the  question  is  between  you  and  the  city.  I think  you  were  on  the  right 
track  now  in  promising  to  clean  up. 

MR.  JONES:  I will  tell  you  I would  be  willing  to  help  the  Committee  in 
every  possible  way  that  I could  out  there.  I would  do  anything  and  every- 
thing that  I could  to  run  a clean  place,  as  clean  a place  as  anybody  has  in 
Chicago. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  If  some  of  the  down-town  places  are  permitted  to 
give  cabaret  performances  that  are  indecent  in  the  opinion  of  some  people, 
you  should  be  permitted  to  give  them  out  there.  If  you  are  not  permitted  to 
give  them  out  there,  they  should  not  be  permitted  to  give  them  down  here,  but 
I don’t  think  that  either  of  you  should  be  permitted  to  have  any  songs  or  any 
dances  that  are  indecent. 

MR.  JONES:  Well,  I don’t  really  approve  of  that,  and  I never  have  had 
out  there.  The  chances  are  just  while  I was  gone  the  management  got  a little 
careless  and  stood  for  a whole  lot  of  things  out  there  that  I would  not  have 
stood  for. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I think  the  trouble,  Air.  Jones,  is  this:  there 
might  be  in  your  neighborhood  someone  that  had  a place  like  yours  that 
would  put  a stunt  on  that  was  a little  shady 

MR.  JONES:  Sure. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  — and  j'ou  went  possibly  beyond  and  put  on  one 
a little  more  shady. 

MR.  JONES : Oh,  no. 

SENATOR  BEALL : And  your  competitor  would  put  one  on  a little 
more  shady  until  you  never  knew  about  where  to  stop.  If  a line  was  drawn 
both  you  and  everybody  else  would  have  to  hew  to  the  line,  and  I think  that 
it  would  be  better  for  all  of  you. 

AIR.  JONES:  There  is  no  doubt  about  it. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Well  now,  the  line  should  be:  clean  places  all 
down  the  line,  and  keep  them  clean.  I could  stay  in  Chicago  with  this 
Committee,  and  we  could  clean  up  this  place  in  three  months,  anyhow,  and 
I guarantee  to  you  it  would  be  clean  if  we  got  into  it  once;  there  would  be 
nothing  except  what  was  right.  But  this  matter  is  in  the  hands  of  the 
Mayor.  I don’t  know  what  the  AIa3'or  will  do  in  3'our  case;  we  have 
nothing  to  say  about  that.  Perhaps  this  will  be  a lesson  to  j'ou. 

MR.  JONES:  Yes,  it  will  be  a lesson. 

SENATOR  BEALL  : In  fact,  it  is  a lesson  now,  everything  is  very 
tame  in  Chicago  as  long  as  we  stay  here.  It  is  up  to  you  if  you  want  to  stay 
in  business  that  the  responsibilitj-  to  keep  things  right  is  with  you. 

MR.  JONES:  Well,  I have  kept  things  awful  right  out  there  for  a long 
time.  Of  course  I admit  when  I went  away  things  might  have  got  loose  down 
there,  but  there  w'as  no  complaint  about  my  place  as  long  as  I was  in  town. 

CHAIRAIAN  O’HARA:  \ou  have  been  called  here  this  morning  by  this 
Committee  because  it  was  represented  to  us  by  a number  of  people  that  you 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


509 


had  been  sick,  and  in  a way  had  not  been  in  close  touch  with  your  cafe.  More 
than  that,  they  said  that  you  had  invested  all  of  your  money  there ; and  that 
you  were  entitled  to  a hearing.  In  all  fairness,  this  Committee  accords  a full 
hearing  to  any  citizen  desiring  to  be  heard;  and  that  privilege  has  not  been 
withheld  from  you.  If  you  have  nothing  further  to  say,  you  are  now 
excused. 

Sergeant  William  F.  Bowler’s  Testimony. 

SERGEANT  WILLIAM  F.  BOWLER,  called  as  a witness  before 
the  Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined 
and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  William  F. 
Bowler.  t 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Sergeant  of  police. 

Q.  Of  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  the  police  department? 
A.  Thirteen  years. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  worked  in  the  red  light  district?  A.  I have. 

Q.  How  many  years?  A.  Since  October  28th,  1909,  I have  been 

detailed  with  a committee  of  fifteen. 

Q.  How  long  a period  is  that?  A.  Three  years,  going  on  four. 

Q.  What  is  that  commitee  of  fifteen?  A.  It  is  a committee  of  busi- 

ness men,  professional  men,  to  stop  pandering. 

Q.  To  stop  pandering?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  work  in  conjunction  with 
the  police  department  and  with  the  United  States  Government;  Mr. 
DeWoody’s  office. 

Q.  During  that  three  years  you  have  become  pretty  well  familiar 
with  the  girls  who  fall?  A.  I have  made  a study  of  it. 

Q.  Now,  what  would  you  say,  sergeant,  is  the  most  direct  cause  of 
a girl’s  downfall?  A.  Poverty. 

Q.  Unquestionably  poverty?  A.  Why,  certainly.  You  can  take  a 
dozen  contributory  causes,  you  can  say  it  is  fondness  of  dress,  hasty 
marriages,  divorces,  Greek  restaurants,  Greek  cafes,  and  so  forth,  but 
if  you  sift  it  right  down,  it  is  poverty. 

Q.  Do  girls  making  four  or  five  dollars  a week  sometimes  fall  be- 
cause they  can’t  live  on  the  amount  of  money  they  are  paid?  A.  Yes, 
but  I don’t  say  all  girls. 

Q.  In  your  experience  there  has  come  to  your  attention  some  cases 
where  girls  have  fallen  simply  because  they  could  not  live  on  their  wages? 
A.  Why,  certainly. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  as  a police  officer  and  a citizen,  who  is  respon- 
sible for  her  downfall — the  man  who  is  paying  her  a starvation  wage? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I have  investigated  conditions  and  know  whereof  I talk. 
I know  what  I say.  There  has  been  ninety-seven  straight  convictions 
of  pandering,  and  eighty-six  per  cent  of  these  cases  were  brought  in  by 
police  officers  and  not  by  reformers. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  you  ever  talk  to  these  girls?  A.  I have. 
Q.  What  did  they  say  to  you?  A.  There  is  no  question  about  it, 
‘it  is  poverty.  That  is  what  most  of  them  say. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  your  present  work? 
i A.  Going  on  four  years. 

I Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  talked  with?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you, 
'perhaps  five  hundred. 

Q.  You  think  of  the  five  hundred  girls  that  the  majority  fell  from 
, poverty?  A.  From  poverty,  yes,  sir. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  least  that  a lone  girl  could  live  on  in 
Chicago,  live  respectably,  and  have  decent  clothes  and  a decent  room 
and  an  ordinary  living,  at  what  cost?  A.  I don’t  know,  it  is  a pretty 
deep  question.  I know  I am  a man  of  family,  and  I can  hardly  live 
with  the  family  I have  on  the  wages  I have  been  getting. 

Q.  Suppose  a girl  should  come  to  Chicago,  a poor  girl  without  a 
home,  looking  for  work,  do  you  think  that  she  has  much  of  a chance 
of  coming  out  clean  in  the  end?  A.  Well,  hardly. 

Q.  A lady  tells  me  that  they  had  some  auxiliary  committees  tc 
meet  these  girls  at  the  depot.  A.  They  have.  Those  ladies  at  these 
depots,  they  are  doing  good  work,  there  is  no  question  about  it,  but  o 
these  wild  carriage  rides  and  stuff  like  that,  I have  never  seen  it.  1 re- 
member a case  that  I saw  a while  ago  of  two  young  girls  coming  here  fron 
St.  Louis,  Missouri.  They  were  picked  up  at  the  Polk  Street  depot,  pickec 
up  by._  these  good  women  around  the  depot. . They  thought  it  was  £ 
pandering  case.  I found  out  that  one  of  the  girls  had  married  a young 
fellow  in  St.  Louis  who  ruined  her  and  deserted  her  and  her  little  baby 
The  other  girl,  she  is  going  with  a chauffeur  down  there,  and  she  was 
going  to  get  married  to  him.  The  father  and  mother  had  been  divorced 
and  the  father  had  left,  and  had  come  here  to  live,  and  she  came  to  stay 
with  her  father,  and  he  turned  her  away  from  the  door,  and  she  went 
on  the  street.  She  said  that  her  mother  had  married  this  young  fellow 
after  she  had  been  intimate  with  him. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  experience  with  the  white  slave  traffics 
A.  I have,  yes. 

Q.  Girls  brought  here  from  New  York,  Canada,  Michigan  and  othei 
states?  A.  I only  remember  one  case  from  Canada. 

Q.  Bringing  them  in  here  from  different  states  for  immoral  purposes 
have  you  had  cases  of  that  kind?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  cases  have  you  had?  A.  Perhaps  thirty. 

Q.  These  girls  brought  from  other  states  to  houses  of  prostitutior 
and  probably  sold?  A.  The  majority  of  girls  that  are  brought  here 
are  girls  that  are  brought  here  by  their  husbands,  have  only  been  marriec 
two  or  three  months  and  go  on  the  street.  We  pick  up  hundreds  o' 
these. 

Q.  Were  the  husbands  living  off  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  their  soliciting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  catch  many  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  a man  of  experience?  A.  I think  I have  had  plenty 
in  the  four  years. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Someone  told  me  that  you  had  arrested  more 
panderers  in  your  experience  than  any  other  police  officer  in  the  Unitec 
States,  is  that  true?  A.  That  is  true.  I have  been  specially^  detailed 
on  it. 

Q.  Did  I correctly  understand  you  to  say  that  effectively'  to  stof 
white  slavery  we  must  go  into  the  matter  of  poverty'?  A.  \es,  yor 
know  that  poverty  is  the  cause  of  seventy-five  of  eighty  per  cent  of  al 
crime,  I think  so. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Could  you  offer  any  suggestion:  we  are  out 
to  learn?  A.  To  stop  this  condition  of  affairs? 

Q.  Yes.  These  things  you  have  heard  and  have  testified  to;  y'or 
know  all  about  it  probably.  Take  this  first  witness  you  have  heard,  Jones 
you  heard  him  testify  a while  ago  and  y'ou  know  all  about  him,  probably 
They  all  promise  to  do  better.  What  do  y'Ou  think  about  him?  A.  1 
don’t  know  much  about  this  man  Jones,  but  I know  he  is  trying  to  be 
on  his  good  behavior.  I know  he  has  been  drifting  away'  from  what  he 
was  before. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Ike  Bloom?  A.  I have  never  met  the  gentleman 
R.  Fozzo’s  Testimony. 

R.  FOZZO,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Ccjmmittee.  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


511 


li 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

' I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  R.  Fozzo. 

<' I Q.  What  do  you  do,  Mr.  Fozzo?  A.  I am  a saloonkeeper. 

' I Q Do  you  own  your  own  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  own  it  or  does  the  brewery  own  it?  A No,  I own  it 
ri  Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  Sangamon  and  Madison. 

< I Q.  Is  there  any  dance  hall  in  connection  with  that  saloon?  A.  Yes, 
!ir. 

[.  I Q-  What  is  the  name  of  that  dance  hall?  A.  The  Vermont. 

[ I Q.  Do  you  own  that?  A.  No. 

I I Q.  Who  does  own  it?  A Phillips. 

^ : Q.  What  is  Mr.  Phillips’  name?  A.  Robert. 

' Q.  Where  is  the  saloon,  on  the  ground  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  the  dance  hall?  A.  On  the  third  floor. 

Q.  What  is  on  the  second  floor?  A.  Billiard  hall. 

. j Q.  Is  there  an  elevator  connected  with  the  ground  floor  and  the 
. Krird  floor?  A No,  sir. 

i;  Q.  Just  flights  of  stairs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I i Q.  In  the  front?  A.  In  the  center  of  the  building. 

Q.  You  can  leave  the  saloon  directly  and  go  into  the  dance  hall? 
i.  Yes. 

, |l  Q.  How  often  do  they  have  dances  out  there?  A.  Oh,  about  three 
t fimes  a week,  sometimes  four  times. 

, Q-  Who  gives  those  dances?  A.  Phillips  and  O’Connor. 

? Q.  Does  Phillips  give  them  or  does  he  rent  the  hall  out?  A.  He 
juns  it. 

Q.  Gives  the  dances  himself?  A.  He  is  the  one  that  gives  the  dances 
iimself. 

, Q.  What  does  he  charge  for  a dance?  A.  He  charges  fifty  cents 
I couple. 

Q.  And  that  admits  them  into  the  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

, I Q.  For  the  entire  evening’s  performance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q-  When  they  enter  the  hall,  do  they  go  through  the  saloon?  A. 
< ,Jo,  sir. 

j i Q.  They  go  there  and  dance  a while  and  then  if  anyone  wants  to 
i jiring  his  girl  down  and  get  a glass  of  beer,  you  have  a couple  of  rooms 
L et  aside  in  your  place  where  they  can  get  their  drinks?  A.  Yes,  we  have 
II  big  room  seating  about  forty  or  fifty  people. 

Q.  They  can  come  in  and  dance  and  between  dances  they  can  come 
li.jiown  into  this  big  room  and  get  served?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  Then  go  back  up  and  dance  again?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  come  down  and  get  another  drink  and  then  go  up  again? 
C Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  an  harmonious  arrangement  existing  between  you  and 
Ur.  Phillips?  A.  No,  in  fact  I don’t  have  nothing  to  do  with  Phillips 
'.nd  they  have  nothing  to  do  with  us. 

J Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  special  bar  permit  system?  A.  I don’t 
i!ee  any  harm  in  it  to  have  a bar-room  with  a dance  hall. 

I 

■ Q.  You  don’t  catch  my  question.  In  some  dance  halls,  where  dances 
j.re  given  by  societies  and  clubs,  they  operate  under  a special  bar  permit 
i.llowing  them  to  sell  up  to  three  o’clock  in  the  morning,  whereas  the 
laloonkeeper  can  only  sell  to  one  o’clock;  now,  from  a saloonkeeper’s 
■loint  of  view,  what  do  you  think  of  that  system?  A.  Well,  the  society 
' ;ives  this  dance,  and  they  only  give  it  for  the  amount  of  money  they 
Jan  get  out  of  it,  and  in  that  way  they  serve  drinks  sometimes  to  people 
}hat  should  not  be  served. 


512  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  that  is  hurting  the  business 
of  every  law-respecting  saloonkeeper?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is. 

Q.  Do  any  of  the  dancers  at  the  Vermont  hall  become  intoxicated? 
A.  No,  sir.  1 am  the  only  one,  and  I take  care  of  the  tables.  I never 
serve  any  drink  when  I see  a man  has  enough,  and  I don’t  sell  him  any 
more. 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  I tell  them  that  they  have  got  it  enough; 
to  cut  it  out. 

Q.  Do  they  have  any  drinking  on  the  second  floor,  in  the  billiard 
room?  A.  We  do  serve  drinks  there;  sometimes  they  have  a lady  friend 
step  up  there,  and  the  escort  orders  drinks  for  them  up  there. 

Q.  During  the  times  that  dances  are  on,  in  this  billiard  hall  filled 
with  people  playing  bllards?  A.  Yes,  sr. 

Q.  Is  it  subdivided  or  is  it  all  one  big  room?  A.  It  is  one  big 
room,  sixty  by  thirty-seven;  they  have  got  eight  tables. 

Q.  How  late  do  those  dances  last?  Q.  Until  twelve  o’clock,  Satur- 
day nights  until  one. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  young  girls  up  there  dancing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  are  the  girls?  A.  Well,  really  I don’t  think  that  they 
let  them  there  under  eighteen  years  old. 

Q.  Some  of  the  girls  are  under  twenty-one?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  any  of  the  girls  that  go  there  are  under  twenty- 
one?  A.  I don’t  think  so,  because  Mr.  Phillips  and  Mr.  O’Conner  don’t  allow 
any  girl  in  there  that  they  know  is  under  twenty-one  to  go  upstairs  to  the  dance 
hall,  because  many  times  I happen  to  be  there  when  the  people  are  going  up, 
and  if  they  see  a lady  that  don't  look  old  enough  they  turned  them  out.  I have 
seen  that  many  times. 

Q.  How  can  you  tell  whether  a girl  is  under  tw^entj'-one  or  not?  A.  It  is 
a hard  thing  to  tell ; simply  by  asking  them  and  they  will  tell  you  she  is  over 
twenty-one. 

Q.  Last  Saturday  night  was  there  any  dancing  in  your  place?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Was  there  a woman  intoxicated  at  that  dance?  A.  M’ell,  she  is  liable 
to  come  in  “piped ;’’  I know  she  didn’t  get  “piped”  in  my  place,  because  I am 
the  one  that  waited  on  the  tables. 

Q.  Was  there  any  woman  who  left  your  place,  no  matter  where  she  got 
her  drinks,  who  left  your  place  last  Saturday  night  very  much  intoxicated? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  man  who  left  your  place  very  much  intoxicated?  A. 
Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  Was  there  any  woman  w'ho  carried  an  intoxicated  man  from  the 
Vermont  dance  hall  last  Saturday  night?  A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a woman  carry  a man  from  the  Vermont  dance 
hall,  the  man  being  so  that  he  couldn’t  w^alk?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  the  favorite  dances  at  the  Vermont  dance  hall?  A.  Well, 
really,  all  the  dances  I know-  is  the  w-altz  and  two-step.  I never  danced,  so  I 
don’t  know  anything  about  dances. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  up  into  the  Vermont  dance  hall  and  watch  them 
dacing  there?  A.  Well,  as  I told  jmu,  I am  working  dowmstairs,  and  I don’t 
have  time  to  go  upstairs  and  see  the  dances. 

Q.  You  say  you  have  never  seen  the  turkey  trot?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  never  seen  the  tango?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  never  seen  anj-  of  these  modern  muscle  dances?  A.  No,  sir. 
Dr.  Carl  Quale’s  Testimony. 

DR.  CARL  QUALE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  j-ou  name?  A.  Carl  C.  Quale. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


513 


Q.  Do  you  know  of  such  an  institution  as  the  Vermont  dance  hall?  A. 
Yes,  I do.  I have  been  there  twice. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  Over  on  Madison  and  Sangamon.  It  is  the 

;orner  saloon.  It  has  an  entrance  on  the  side.  It  is  923  West  Madison  street. 

Right  around  the  corner. 

Q.  When  did  you  last  visit  the  Vermont  dance  hall?  A.  Saturday  night. 

Q.  Will  you  kindly  tell  the  members  of  this  Committee,  what  you  saw 
last  Saturday  night  in  the  Vermont  dance  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I will  do  that. 
1 went  there,  and  the  first  thing  that  I noticed  was  a young  girl  coming  in 
out  of  the  men’s  toilet.  The  second  thing  I saw  was  down  in  the  billiard  hall, 
an  the  second  floor,  stood  a keg  about  this  size  (indicating  with  his  hands), 
and  girls  were  going  in  there  and  filling  up  right  along,  unescorted.  The  third 
thing  that  I saw  was  one  man,  hanging  on  to  a woman’s  shoulder,  going 
home  drunk,  going  down  the  stairway. 

Q.  Was  he  in  such  condition  that  he  couldn’t  walk  unassisted?  A.  No, 
he  could  not  navigate  alone,  and  further  I saw  quite  a number  of  girls  there 

that  I should  say  were  below  twenty-one,  yes,  below  eighteen.  There  were 

two  there  that  looked  below  sixteen. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  dances  going  on?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  they  dancing?  A.  I didn’t  look  very  much  at  the  dances, 

and  I could  not  talk  as  intelligently  about  that  as  I would  like  to  do,  because 
I didn’t  stay  in  the  room  to  see  the  dances.  They  were  dancing  at  the  time 
that  I was  there,  and  the  dances  were  the  ordinary  dances. 

Q.  The  dances  were  all  right  then,  in  the  main?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Most  of  the  women  were  of  what  class?  A.  Why  they  looked  to 
be  a class  of  working  girls,  pretty  near  all  of  them. 

■ Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  most  of  them  were  good  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Unquestionably  good  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  women  there  that  seemed  to  be  of  a different  order? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I saw  quite  a number  of  them  that  I would  call  professional 
women.  • 

Q.  Now,  Doctor,  you  had  been  studying  this  subject  for  a good  many 
■years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  become  acquainted  with  a great  many  prostitutes?  A.  I 
have. 

Q.  Did  you  at  that  hall  see  any  woman  that  you  knew  positively  to  be  a 
prostitute?  A.  Yes,  sir.  There  were  three  absolute  professionals  there  that 
I saw. 

Q.  They  were  mingling  in  the  assembly,  among  the  other  women? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I saw  one  of  them  take  a girl  down  into  the  billiard  hall  and 
get  her  a drink.  That  was  in  the  billiard  hall  and  the  keg  was  inside 
the  door. 

Q.  In  the  billiard  hall  there  were  men?  A.  Nothing  but  men,  except 
those  women  that  were  around  the  keg. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  see  any  of  these  prostitutes  introduce  any  girls  to 
any  man  there?  A.  No,  I didn’t. 

Q.  Could  that  have  been  done?  A.  Yes,  sir,  very  easily. 

Q.  It  might  have  happened?  A.  Very  easily. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Doctor,  did  you  see  any  policemen  around 
that  dance  hall?  A.  Not  at  the  time  I was  there. 

Q.  Did  they  have  any  men  on  the  floor  looking  after  the  dancing  to 
see  that  they  were  keeping  order?  A.  I believe  that  they  had. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  so-called 
hotels  near  these  dancing  houses?  A.  Some.  They  seem  to  be  in  the 
commercial  world  for  the  purpose  of  transient  trade,  rent  out  rooms  for 
an  hour  or  two. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY ; Doctor,  what  is  your  observation  as  to  the  rela- 
tion of  the  sale  of  liquor  at  dances  and  girls  going  wrong?  A.  It  is  one 
of  the  phases  that  starts  young  girls.  When  a girl  comes  in  she  seeks 


514  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


amusement,  she  has  not  got  the  price,  she  gets  into  one  of  those  places 
and  she  is  treated  well  bj^  her  escort  or  company,  she  gets  a drink  or  two, 
she  is  an  easy  victim  then  for  anything  that  he  might  suggest,  and  the 
peculiar  part  of  it  is,  most  of  them  come  there  very  hungry,  and  a very 
small  drink — not  more  than  a glass  of  beer — is  likely  to  upset  them. 

Q.  You  think  that  the  downfall  of  girls  is  traced  right  down  to  the 
sale  of  intoxicants?  A.  Why,  that  is  one  of  the  causes,  that  is  one  of 
the  greatest  causes  that  can  be  traced  in  connection  with  the  dance  hall; 
it  is  the  easiest  way  of  ruining  our  young  girls  that  I know. 

Q.  If  intoxicants  were  not  sold  at  dance  halls  it  would -stop  a great 
deal  of  that,  wouldn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  I also  want  to  mention  that  poverty 
is  at  the  bottom  of  the  whole  thing.  Persons  that  have  never  had  a taste 
of  poverty  cannot  realize  that.  From  an  experience  running  over  twelve 
years,  it  seems  to  me  that  it  has  been  my  lot  to  find  28  cases  in  the  last 
two  years  of  straight  pandering  that  low  wages  was  directly  or  indirectly 
the  cause  of. 

William  J.  Schoen’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAM  J.  SCHOEN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  be- 
ing first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  William  J.  Schoen. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  I am  running  Schoenhofen  Hall. 

Q.  Is  that  a dance  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  It  is  on  Milwaukee  avenue  and  Ash- 
land, 1224  Milwaukee  avenue. 

Q.  On  what  floor  is  it?  A.  It  is  on  the  third  floor.  There  are  two 
dance  halls,  one  on  the  second  and  one  on  the  third  floor. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  give  dances  there?  A.  Wh\%  on  an  average 
of  about  six  dances  a week;  -it  is  six  affairs,  not  always  dances. 

Q.  You  rent  the  hall  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  clubs?  A.  Sometimes. 

Q.  Do  you  give  any  dances  j'ourself?  A.  Never. 

Q.  Is  there  any  bar  connected  with  this  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  a licensed  saloon?  A.  A special  license. 

Q.  That  is,  you  rent  the  hall  out  to  some  society  and  they  give  a 
dance  and  they  get  out  the  special  bar  permit?  A.  \ es,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  pay  for  that  special  bar  permit?  Six  dollars. 

Q.  That  permits  them  to  sell  liquor  how  late?  A.  Three  o’clock. 

Q.  From  what  time  in  the  evening?  A.  Well,  the  bar  permit  reads 
from  three  o’clock  to  three  o’clock,  twelve  hours,  but  thej^  never  do  that. 
They  generally  start  about  nine  o’clock  in  the  evening,  unless  it  be  on 
Saturday,  when  they  hold  later. 

Q.  Suppose  I want  to  give  a dance  and  I want  your  hall.  What 
would  you  charge  me  for  it?  A.  I would  charge  you  one  hundred  dollars 
a night,  except  Saturday. 

Q.  I would  have  to  pay  on  deposit  how  much?  A.  \ ou  wouldn’t 
have  to  pay  me  any  deposit  if  I knew  you. 

Q.  Suppose  you  didn’t  know’  me?  A.  I would  not  rent  you  the 
hall.  We  have  enough  of  fraternal  organizations,  nothing  but  fraternal 
organizations  in  our  place,  and  if  you  wanted  to  rent  the  hall  j'ou  would 
represent  yourself  say  from  the  Knights  and  Ladies  of  Honor,  or  the 
K.  P.  or  something  of  that  kind,  and  I would  look  you  up,  and  if  j'ou 
were  the  party,  then  I w’ould  rent  you  the  hall. 

Q.  You  would  ascertain  positively  whether  I represented  a bona-fide 
organization?  A.  Positively. 

Q.  You  have  ascertained,  we  will  say,  that  I do  represent  some  bona- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


515 


fide  organization,  then  how  much  money  do  you  expect  in  advance?  A. 
Well,  we  don’t  require  much,  just  a deposit  of  five  dollars  or  something 
to  bind  the  contract. 

Q.  When  must  I pay  you  the  rest  of  the  one  hundred  dollars?  A. 
The  night  of  the  dance,  at  any  time. 

Q.  Suppose  we  don’t  take  in  one  hundred  dollars?  A.  Well,  then 
we  lose  the  money. 

Q.  You  lose  the  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  in  other  words,  you  take  a gamble  on  the  crowd?  A.  No; 
we  take  a gamble  on  the  people  who  rent  the  hall;  as  a rule  we  haven’t 
any  such  occurrences. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a dance  there  last  Saturday  night?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Who  gave  it?  A.  An  Armenian  Singing  Society. 

Q.  How  large  a membership  has  it?  A.  Oh,  it  must  have  two  or 
three  hundred  members. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  lease  your  hall  to  any  society  that  had  less  than 
fifty  members?  A.  I have. 

Q.  To  any  that  has  less  than  twenty-five  members?  A.  Not  often. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  rent  it  to  a society  that  had  eight  or  nine  or  ten 

members?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  they  are  bona  fide  members?  A.  We 
are  very  careful  about  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  rent  your  hall  out  for  political  purposes?  A.  I do, 

yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  charge?  A.  Full  price. 

Q.  One  hundred  dollars?  A.  Fifty  dollars  week  nights  and  one 

hundred  dollars  Saturday  night. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  rent  your  hall  for  less  than  one  hundred  dollars 
to  any  party  or  political  meeting?  A.  I did  once  for  forty-five  dollars. 

Q.  Never  below  forty-five  dollars?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  rented  your  hall  for  political  purposes 
last  year,  roughly  speaking?  A.  About  half  a dozen  times. 

Q.  To  what  political  parties?  A.  To  all  political  parties. 

Q.  And  all  of  those  parties  paid  you  the  full  price?  A.  Positively. 

Q.  No  system  or  rebating?  A.  No  rebating. 

Q.  You  would  not  rent  your  hall  to  any  poltical  party  or  to  any 
politician  for  one  cent  less  than  the  full  price?  A.  He  could  not  get 
the  hall. 

Q.  How  many  couples  attend  some  of  those  dances  at  your  place? 
A.  It  all  depends  on  the  night. 

Q.  A nice  night,  how  many?  A.  About  three  hundred  couple,  four 
hundred  couple;  last  Saturday  night  we  had  about  350  couples. 

Q.  Any  unescorted  wmmen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  it  cost  an  unescorted  woman  to  get  in  the  dance? 
A.  Fifty  cents. 

Q.  The  same  as  a man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  any  of  them  come  unescorted  and  pay  you  fifty  cents?  A. 
If  they  want  to  get  in. 

Q.  Do  you  have  an}^  dances  up  there  where  you  have  more  women 
than  men?  A.  That  is  a hard  thing  to  tell. 

Q.  How  does  the  unescorted  girl,  wdio  is  a stranger,  go  about  getting 
acquainted?  A.  Well,  Governor,  it  is  just  like  this:  She  comes  in  there 
and  we  understand,  she  comes  in  there  with  the  understanding  and  knowl- 
edge that  she  will  know'  somebody  in  the  place.  For  instance,  I want 
to  say,  a singing  society  last  night  gave  a dance;  it  was  advertised  in 
the  society  paper.  She  comes  up  there  and  she  knows  somebody  in 
the  crowd.  They  are  all  people  that  know  each  other.  There  is  a dif- 
ferent crowd  every  night;  a different  class  of  people,  We  have  all 
nationalities,  almost,  giving  their  affairs. 


516  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Did  you  ever  see  an  intoxicated  man  in  your  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  him?  A.  Asked  him  to  go  home. 

Q.  Are  there  any  assignation  houses  in  that  neighborhood?  A.  No, 
sir,  there  is  one  little  place  up  there  in  the  neighborhood,  but  it  is  a sort 
of  a private  place;  they  rent  out  rooms  by  the  week.  It  is  nothing. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  By  the  way,  do  they  ever  rent  them  out  by 
the  hour,  do  you  know?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Representative  Zola  tells  me  j'ou  have  a 
very  decent  hall  there.  A.  I try  to  keep  it  pretty  decent. 

Q.  It  is  a pretty  good  neighborhood  around  there?  A.  Pretty 

good. 

Q.  Just  one  more  question:  Do  these  socities  that  give  dances 

have  to  take  out  Government  licenses,  or  do  the  single  beer  permits  or 
licenses  given  by  the  city  cover  ever3Tbing?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  have  lodges 
that  have  no  Government  license. 

Q.  There  are  some  that  have  no  license  from  the  Government? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  have  a special  bar  permit  given  by  the  city?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Under  that  they  are  permitted  to  sell  up  to  three  o’clock  in  the 
morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

William  Shemberg’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAM  SHEMBERG,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  William  Shem- 
berg. 

Q.  And  what  is  your  business?  A.  Retail  liquor  business. 

Q.  Where?  A.  At  527  Milwaukee  Avenue. 

Q.  Do  you  own  that  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  a saloon  on  the  ground  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  a dance  hall  in  connection  with  the  saloon?  A.  There 
is  a dance  hall  running  on  the  second  floor. 

Q.  Do  you  own  the  dance  hall?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  a stairway  connecting  the  dance  hall  and  the  saloon? 
A.  There  is  a stairway  from  the  street,  both  streets,  Ohio  and  Milwaukee 
Avenue. 

Q.  There  is  one  stairway  or  two  stairways?  A.  Two  stairwaj's. 

Q.  One  in  front  and  the  other  in  the  rear?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  give  dances  in  jmur  hall?  A.  About  five 
dances  a year.  We  don’t  cater  to  them  very  much. 

Q.  Why  don’t  you  cater  to  them?  A.  Well,  half  of  them  are  too 
rough.  There  is  a bad  element  around  there  that  you  can’t  control.  Mj- 
hall  is  mostly  occupied  by  organized  union  labor  three  or  four  nights 
a week  for  union  labor,  Saturday  and  Sundays  I rent  it  mostlj’^  out  for 
Italians,  Polish  and  Germans  and  Austrian  societies. 

Q.  When  was  the  last  dance  held  in  your  hall?  A.  Last  Saturday 
night. 

Q.  Who  gave  that  dance?  A.  The  Ratch  Peerless  Base  Ball  Club. 

Q.  What  did  you  charge  them  for  the  hall  on  this  occasion?  A. 
Forty-five  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  couples  did  they  have  there?  A.  Thej"  had  perhaps 
from  20  to  25. 

Q.  What  time  did  this  dance  on  Saturday  night  begin?  A.  About 

8:30. 

Q.  What  time  did  it  close?  A.  Three. 

Q.  Three  o’clock  in  the  morning?  A.  Yes.  ...  _. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


517 


Q.  Where  did  you  serve  the  drinks,  downstairs  or  in  the  dance  hall? 
A.  They  had  a bar  permit,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  were  serving  the  drinks  to  themselves?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  they  buy  the  drinks?  A.  Of  me. 

Q.  They  had  a bar  permit  but  you  furnished  the  drinks?  A.  The 
wine  and  wiske}^  they  bought  themselves,  but  they  bought  the  beer  of 
me. 

Q.  Ho.w  many  bottles  of  whiskey  did  they  bring?  A.  They  had 
about  one  gallon  of  each. 

Q.  One  gallon  of  wine  and  one  gallon  of  whiskey?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  many  kegs  of  beer?  A.  Two  half  barrels. 

Q.  For  twenty-five  couples?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  wine  was  taken  back, 
there  was  used  about  a pint  of  each.  I took  it  away  yesterday  afternoon. 
The  committee  was  disappointed. 

Q.  The  committee  got  intoxicated  after  it  was  all  over?  A.  Yes, 
after  it  was  all  through. 

Q.  Is  that  usually  the  case,  the  committee  giving  those  dances  getting 
intoxicated?  A.  Yes,  they  do. 

Q.  Under  the  special  bar  permit  system,  the  regulation  of  the  dance 
is  in  the  hands  of  this  committee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  members  of  tbe  committee  regulate  the  dance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  responsibility  is  on  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  are  the  first  fellows  that  “go  under?”  A.  Well,  they 
don’t  get  that  way  until  the  dance  is  over. 

Q.  They  get  pretty  well  started  before  the  dance  is  out,  don’t  they? 
A.  Sometimes. 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  I have  been  twenty-two  years  in  the  saloon 
' business;  there  is  not  much  in  it. 

Q.  You  have  the  best  interests  of  the  business  at  heart?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  As  a saloon-keeper,  what  do  you  think  of  the  special  bar  permit 
, system?  A.  I think  that  75  per  cent  of  it  ought  to  be  cut  out. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  draw  the  line?  A.  Well,  there  should 
be  appointed  a commission  by  the  by  the  Mayor  to  regulate  that  and 
look  after  these  bar  permits:  let  them  file  their  application  and  give  about 
ninety  days  notice  before  they  start  a dance  to  find  out  who  they  are. 
li  I think  the  commission  would  investigate  and  find  out  who  they  are, 
and  not  allow  a disreputable  crowd  to  have  any  such  a permit. 

0-  You  say  in  the  last  year  you  have  given  five  dances  in  your  hall? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  your  experience  has  been  such  that  you  don’t  care  to  have 
any  more  of  it?  A.  Those  dances  were  all  right,  though  the  people  who 
j would  have  dances  there,  I would  not  have  anything  to  do  with  them. 

Q.  You  would  sooner  rent  your  hall  for  other  purposes  than  for 
these  dances?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  you  ever  visit  any  other  dance  hall  in 
the  city?  A.  Very  few  that  I have  been  around  to  in  my  days. 

Q.  You  have  been  to  some,  have  you?  A.  Probably  one  or  two 
in  my  life. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  them?  A.  I heard  so  much  of  them, 
but  I don’t  know  much  about  them. 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  Can  I speak  a few  words? 

SENATOR  BEALL : Go  ahead. 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  Two  of  your  officers  made  a remark  to  this  Committee 
that  a certain  hall  is  running  good;  I think  that  that  is  the  worst  place  in  the 
city  of  Chicago.  In  the  northwest  side. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  hall?  A.  Roti’s.  This  is  on  Sangamon  and 
Grand  Avenue.  There  is  nothing  but  minors,  and  boys  fifteen,  sixteen  or 
eighteen,  that  is  there.  I am  just  a couple  of  blocks  away  from  there. 


518  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Tell  us  all  you  know  about  that  hall.  A.  Why,  about  two  years  ago 
the  West  Chicago  avenue  police  was  going  to  close  the  place  up,  and  this  man 
come  over  to  me  and  wanted  to  know  what  he  could  do.  I told  him  that  the 
best  thing  that  he  could  do;  he  bought  that  hall,  it  was  made  out  of  a church, 
the  building;  and  the  best  thing  that  he  could  do  was  to  take  a carpenter  and 
make  a rooming  house  of  it  and  rent  it  out,  that  he  could  get  more  money  out 
of  it  and  have  less  trouble  out  of  it  than  in  the  hall.  Well,  he  got  fixed  up 
with  the  Juvenile  officers,  and  he  is  paying  a certain  sum  of  money  to  protect 
him. 

Q.  Repeat  that  again,  please.  A.  He  is  paying  a certain  amount  of  money 
to  the  Juvenile  officers.  He  has  a saloon  on  the  corner  and  on  the  second 
floor  is  running  a bare  lodge  hall  and  in  there  the  boys  and  girls  drink  until 
morning,  fifteen,  sixteen,  eighteen  years  old.  This  committee  can  investigate 
whether  I am  telling  the  truth  or  not. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  this  man  that  is  employed  by  the  welfare  workers 
at  that  hall?  A.  I don’t  know  the  gentleman’s  name. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  him?  A.  No,  sir,  I have  been  told 
many  times  that  he  is  afraid  of  the  crowd  up  there,  afraid  of  his  life;  he 
is  sitting  in  the  corner,  just  merely  that  he  is  there. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  Who  is  that? 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA;  The  welfare  officer. 

THE  WITNESS:  They  are  afraid  to  do  anything  with  them  on  account 
of  the  backing. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  kind  of  backing?  A.  The  Chicago  Com- 
mons is  back  of  them,  and  these  Juvenile  Officers  which  pays  for  this  man  to 
be  there,  and  he  is  protected. 

Q.  That  is  Roti’s?  A.  Yes,  Erank  Roti’s  hall. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA ; Mr.  Coan,  I wish  you  would  serve  a forthwith 
subpoena  on  the  welfare  workers  interested  in  that  place,  and  the  proper  police 
officers  of  the  West  Chicago  station  and  bring  them  in  here  this  afternoon,  if 
possible,  and  also  the  janitor  of  that  place  and  other  persons  who  may'  have 
knowledge  of  the  facts. 


EXAMINATION  BY  REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA. 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA:  Mr.  Shemberg,  how  long  since  you  were 
last  over  at  Frank  Roti’s  place?  A.  I haven’t  been  there  for  the  last  probably 
a year  and  a half. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  these  things  take  place?  M.  Aly  man  goes 
over  there  after  he  closes,  and  he  comes  back  and  reports. 

Q.  What  is  your  man’s  name?  A.  Field. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Frank  Roti?  A.  I do.  I have  met  him  several  times. 

Q.  Did  you  and  Frank  Roti  ever  have  any’  quarrel  between  you?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  You  never  had  any  misunderstanding  of  any  kind?  A.  No,  sir,  not 
a bit. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  this  man  employed  by  the  welfare  society  over  there? 
A.  No,  sir,  1 never  have  seen  him. 

Q.  You  never  have  seen  him?  A.  No,  only  he  used  to  have  a floor 
manager  there  and  he  come  and  told  me  exactly  the  whole  scenes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  floor  manager?  A.  No,  sir,  we  can 
find  it  out  from  Roti ; he  is  not  working  there  any  more. 

Q.  When  was  this  floor  manager  employed  there?  A.  A year  or  a year 
and  a half  ago;  since  the  night  they  pretty  near  killed  him;  one  night  they 
blackened  his  eyes  and  pretty  near  murdered  him. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that  Roti  pays  the  welfare  workers?  A.  From 
this  man  that  was  working  for  them. 

Q.  That  is  how  long  ago?  A.  Probably  six  months  ago  he  come  and 
told  me. 

Q.  He  was  still  working  for  him  six  months  ago?  A.  No,  he  was  not. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


519 


Q.  How  long  after  he  left  Frank  Roti’s  employment  was  that?  A.  About 
six  months. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  him  any  between  this  six  months,  at  any  time  between 
this  conversation  and  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  Had  he  ever  told  you  before  that?  A.  No,  I never  had  seen  him 
before.  * 

Q.  How  did  he  happen  to  say  that  at  that  time?  A.  He  just  came  over 
and  wanted  to  see  my  hall,  and  I took  and  showed  him  the  hall,  and  he  com- 
menced to  tell  me  about  the  things  that  was  going  on  there. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you?  A.  He  told  me  he  was  paying  five  dollars  a 
night  for  each  dance. 

Q.  Paying  whom?  A.  To  the  Juvenile  officers,  to  the  Juvenile  association, 
or  the  Chicago  Commons,  I don’t  know  which. 

Q.  Did  he  say  that  he  paid  the  money  himself?  A.  No,  he  didn’t. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  him  whether  he  ever  paid  the  money  himself?  A.  I 
never  asked  him  that. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  he  ever  saw  the  money  paid?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  him  whether  he  saw  the  money  paid?  A.  No,  I never 
did  ask  him. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : I don’t  understand.  Senator  Beall  and  Repre- 
sentative Zola,  that  this  witness  means  to  imply  that  the  welfare  workers  or 
Juvenile  association  people  were  bribed.  It  was  merely  the  payment  of  a 
salary  to  a worker  furnished  by  the  association  as  part  of  its  system  of 
regulation. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  It  it  the  worker  who  was  bribed? 

THE  WITNESS ; No,  he  was  not  bribed.  He  was  paid  a certain  salary, 
but  the  Welfare  people,  they  furnished  a man  for  him,  and  they  protected  him, 
and  often  he  used  to  go  to  sleep  there. 

SENATOR  BEALL ; Do  you  mean  to  say  that  the  man  that  keeps  his 
house  pays  a certain  sum  of  money  to  the  Welfare  workers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  pay  a man  to  go  there  and  watch  it  and  this  man  goes  to  sleep? 
A.  Yes,  sometimes  he  does. 

Q.  And  don’t  tend  to  his  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

REPRESENTATIVE  ZOLA;  And  you  mean  to  say  that  as  the  result 
of  paying  the  w'elfare  workers  Frank  Roti’s  hall  is  protected?  A.  It  is  pro- 
tected, yes. 

representative  ZOLA;  Well,  that’s  practically  what  it  amounts  to. 

Q.  All  you  know  about  the  whole  transaction  is  what  you  heard?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  are  excused  now  temporarily.  You  will 
return  this  afternoon  when  Mr.  Roti  is  brought  here,  and  you  bring  with  you 
this  man  Eield. 

MR.  SHEMBERG;  The  man  is  off  this  afternoon;  he  goes  to  sleep;  he 
works  tonight. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Can’t  you  get  his  telephone  number? 

MR.  SHEMBERG ; He  has  no  telephone. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  I want  you  to  try  to  get  him.  We  want  every 
man,  woman  or  child  in  the  state  of  Illinois  to  feel  free  to  come  and  give  us 
any  information  they  desire.  We  haven’t  any  more  desire  to  protect  the 
welfare  workers,  if  they  are  wrong  in  their  work,  then  we  have  to  protect 
saloonkeepers  when  they  are  wrong ; but  when  you  make  the  charge  which 
you  have  j'ou  must  in  justice  come  before  the  committee  and  face  the  man  you 
make  it  against.  I want  you  to  have  him  here  this  afternoon. 

MR.  SHEMBERG;  I don’t  know  that  I can  get  him. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA ; Q.  By  the  way,  did  you  ever  let  your  hall  for 
political  purposes?  A.  I haven’t  in  the  last  year. 

Q.  Did  you- ever  at  any  time  let  it  free  of  charge  to  any  political  party? 
A.  No. 


520  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Did  you  ever  get  less  than  regular  price  for  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Dr.  Elmer  Williams’  Testimony. 

DR.  ELMER  WILLIAMS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows; 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Elmer  Williams.  I 
am  pastor  of  Christ  Methodist  Episcopal  Church. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  La  Salle  Avenue  and  Locust  Street. 

Q.  In  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  pastor  of  that  church  there?  A.  Three 

years  ago  last  October  I was  appointed  there  to  serve  as  pastor. 

Q.  How  large  a congregation  have  you?  A.  The  membership  is  between 
five  and  six  hundred ; it  varies,  then  we  have  a changing  population. 

Q.  Some  of  your  parishioners  are  quite  well-to-do?  A.  Yes,  a few  of 
them  are ; the  bulk  of  my  congregation  is  made  up  of  young  men  and  young 
women  who  are  just  beginning  life  in  the  city. 

Q.  You  have  done  work  in  the  field  of  vice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  done  much  investigating?  A.  I have. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  look  into  the  cause  of  vice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  consider  the  leading  cause?  A.  One  of  the  leading 
causes  is  the  male  prostitute. 

Q.  The  male  prostitute?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  low  wages  ever  have  anything  to  do  with  a girl’s  downfall?  A. 
It  is  a contributing  cause. 

Q.  How  large  a contributing  cause?  A.  Very  large  I think  in  many 
cases,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  work  you  have  met  and  known  fallen  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  met  any  fallen  women  who  wanted  to  reform?  A.  I 
met  one  last  week ; she  came  to  my  home  and  said  she  had  been  in  the  business 
for  six  or  seven  years.  I would  like  to  request  that  her  name  be  not  asked, 
for  she  came  in  confidence  to  me  as  a minister. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : The  Committee  desires  to  protect  all  such  wo- 
men. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS : She  said  she  wanted  me  either  to  let  her  alone 
to  follow  her  vocation  as  a woman  of  the  street,  or  to  show  her  how  to  make 
a living.  She  said  I had  broken  up  the  business  on  the  north  side  and  she  said 
she  had  not  eaten  since  the  day  before.  I asked  her  the  beginning  of  her 
career.  She  said  she  was  ruined  by  a business  man  in  an  Eastern  city  six  or 
seven  years  ago.  She  began  then  as  a high-class  woman  of  the  street,  or  pros- 
titute. That  a man — I don’t  know  just  how  far  I ought  to  go.  Governor,  in 
stating  this. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  To  the  full  extent  of  the  truth. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS : She  said  that  a man  told  her  in  Philadelphia, 
he  said,  “Now  you  are  a five-dollar  prostitute:  I am  going  to  tell  you  that  the 
time  will  come  when  you  will  solicit  for  a dollar.’’  She  said  to  him,  “If  that 
time  ever  comes  I will  jump  into  the  Delaware  River.’’  She  said  to  me,  “Now, 
I am  very  glad  to  get  -a  dollar ; my  room  rent  is  paid,  but  I haven’t  had  any 
food  since  yesterday.”  I said,  “Here  is  a dollar,  go  out  and  get  something  to 
eat.”  She  said,  “I  don’t  want  charity;  I want  a chance.”  I called  one  of  our 
deaconnesses  into  the  case  and  we  took  her  to  a home  where  she  could  be 
cared  for.  But  she  had  become  addicted  to  the  use  of  cigarettes  and  liquor, 
and  was  quite  nervous  and  unable  to  take  emplo^Tnent  at  once.  She  came  back 
again. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : Pardon  me,  you  took  her  to  a home  wherein 
she  might  do  domestic  service?  A.  No,  where  she  could  be  cared  for. 

Q.  A charitable  home?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a private  charity  provided  for  just 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  521 

;uch  cases  as  that.  She,  however,  has  since  that  gotten  herself  together,  and 
think  is  employed. 

Q.  Where,  in  what  kind  of  work?  A.  I think  she  is  working  as  a wait- 
■ess  down-town  somewhere. 

Q.  You  have  heard  that  the  red-light  district  in  Chicago  has  been  closed? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  these  women  are  scattered  throughout  the  City  of  Chicago? 

I have  heard  that. 

Q.  Now,  we  have  called  you  here.  Dr.  Williams,  together  with  other  lead- 
ing divines  in  the  city,  to  ask  you  what  the  ministers  and  the  church  people  of 
Chicago  are  doing  to  take  care  of  these  girls  and  women,  five  or  six  thousand 
of  them  who  are  driven  out  of  the  closed  segregated  district?  A.  I would 
like  to  preface  my  answer  by  saying  that  there  is  a very  mistaken  notion  as  to 
the  scatteration  of  vice.  In  my  district,  which  has  not  been  known  as  a red- 
light  district  as  much  as  that  on  the  south  side,  vice  has  been  allowed  to  run 
rampant  for  during  all  of  my  experience,  and  citizens  tell  me  ten  or  fifteen 
years  would  perhaps  not  more  than  cover  the  period  when  vice  has  had  loose 
reign  there.  The  situation  over  there  now  is  not  so  bad  as  it  was  when  the 
red-light  district  was  open.  I said  to  this  girl  the  other  day,  “How  many  are 
there  of  you  in  this  neighborhood?”  She  said,  “There  are  about  two  hundred 
of  us.”  In  reply  to  her  statement  in  which  she  says,  “Show  us  how  to  make 
a living,  or  let  us  alone,”  I said,  “You  can  put  it  down  in  red  ink  that  I am 
not  going  to  tolerate  the  business  that  you  are  in,  in  this  part  of  the  city.” 
And  in  answer  to  the  other  statement  I will  say,  “let  all  of  the  women  in 
your  vocation  come  along,  and  just  as  fast  as  they  come  we  will  undertake 
||to  take  care  of  them,  will  help  them  to  secure  employment  and  restore  them 
fto  a place  in  society.”  There  are  many  of  those  women  who  are  not  able  to 
go  to  work  at  once.  They  all  have  to  have  medical  treatment;  many  of 
them  will  have  to  be  treated  for  cigarettes  and  dope. 

^ Q.  Is  it  your  understanding  that  the  ministers  and  the  church  people  gen- 
erally, without  regard  to  creeds,  are  sort  of  banding  together  to  take  care  of 
these  women?  A.  I am  not  certain  that  there  is  any  movement  to  what  you 
call  band  together. 

Q.  There  is  a movement,  however,  toward  taking  care  of  these  women? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  certainly;  the  Christian  men  and  women  of  this  city  have  all 
sympathy  for  the  fallen  woman,  and  are  going  to  go  to  the  limit  of  their 
ability  to  care  for  her  and  restore  her,  but  we  can’t  for  a moment  tolerate  the 
business  that  she  is  in.  , 

Q.  Your  church  is  a large  church,  isn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  services  there  Sunday  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
r Q.  And  Sunday  evening?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  have  prayer  meeting?  A.  Yes,  sir,  Wednesday  prayer  meeting. 

Q.  What  other  services  do  you  have  during  the  week?  A.  We  have  a 
boys’  meeting  and  we  have  a ladies’  aid ; we  run  a free  lecture  bureau,  give 
stereopticon  lectures  and  others,  and  I put  in  a moving  picture  machine.  We 
hold  a great  many  social  functions  for  the  young  people  in  the  community. 

Q.  Now  on  an  average,  Doctor,  how  many  evenings  a week  are  the  doors 
of  your  church  open?  A.  Well,  this  time  of  the  year,  as  it  begins  to  warm 
up,  they  are  not  open  ordinarily  more  than  for  the  regular  services,  as  there 
is  no  demand  for  indoor  socials,  except  on  extraordinary  occasions. 

Q.  Does  your  church,  have  any  leaning  against  dancing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  opposed  to  dancing,  as  a church?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  could  not  very  well  open  your  church  for  dances?  A.  No. 

Q.  If  properly  regulated?  A.  No. 

Q.  Some  of  the  welfare  workers  have  defended  dance  halls,  when  prop- 
erly regulated,  but  have  criticized  the  special  bar  permit  and  the  more  or  less 
operation  of  white  slavers  among  the  patrons  of  the  public  halls.  Is  it  your 
opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  the  church  might  do  a great  service  in  opening  up  the 
church  doors  generally  during  the  week,  so  the  boys  and  girls  can  have  access, 
and  say  to  them,  “You  come  here ; you  don’t  have  to  belong  to  this  church ; 
you  won’t  be  preached  to  or  at;  just  come  here  and  have  a good  time,  only  we 


522 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


are  going  to  regulate  it,  we  are  going  to  see  that  the  white  slaver  and  the 
masher  and  the  strong  drink  are  kept  out?”  A.  We  invite  all  classes,  and 
conditions,  to  come  into  our  church  and  make  themselves  at  home;  when 
our  social  functions  are  given,  we  send  out  invitations  to  as  many  young  peo- 
ple as  we  can  reach,  but  we  feel  that  the  dance  is  essentially  evil,  and  particu- 
larly so  among  young  people,  if  I may  state  my  personal  reasons.  In  our 
church  we  are  not  controlled  so  that  we  cannot  speak  frankly;  we  can  ex- 
press ourselves;  we  are  democratic.  While  we  have  an  Episcopal  form  of 
government,  we  are  allowed  to  have  our  personal  opinions  about  matters 
of  this  kind.  But  to  open  the  church  and  give  dances,  of  course,  that  would 
be  a violation  of  the  rules.  My  own  personal  views,  as  a minister,  are  that 
you  awaken  the  passions  of  the  young  people  in  the  dance  in  a way  that  is 
not  liable  to  be  done  in  any  other  social  gathering.  It  leads  to  indecencies 
of  a grosser  kind.  It  is  not  only  based  upon  my  own  observation,  but  upon 
the  statement  of  men  who  have  been  more  intimate  with  the  dance  than 
myself. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  turkey  trot?  A.  No,  my  education  has 
been  neglected  in  that  respect. 

Q.  The  tango?  A.  Only  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Either  in  your  work  or  investigation?  A.  No,  I haven’t  visited  the 
dance  halls  very  much.  I have  paid  more  attention  to  the  saloons,  the  cafes, 
immoral  flats  and  hotels. 

Q.  In  your  investigation.  Doctor,  have  you  ever  learned  of  a place  where 
girls  are  lured  from  fashionable  restaurants  and  hairdressing  parlors  and  sold 
to  men  at  so  much  a head?  A.  I never  have  had  anything  exactly  of  that 
nature  that  I could  prove.  I had  a woman  give  me  an  affidavit  this  morning, 
concerning  a certain  saloon  that  says  that  the  saloon  is  frequented  by  women  a 
great  deal ; that  one  of  the  saloonkeepers  went  with  her  downtown  through 
the  stores,  soliciting  the  girls  to  come  over  there  and  have  a good  time;  that 
he  wanted  to  make  a contract  with  her  to  run  a flat  upstairs,  which  is  an  im- 
moral flat  that  I had  a number  arrested  from  a couple  of  weeks  ago ; wanted 
her  to  come  up  there  and  rent  the  place ; he  said  they  would  put  out  the  “old 
hags  that  were  hanging  around  there”  and  get  a lot  of  fresh  material;  she 
said  he  went  with  her  downtown  and  went  to  two  stores  that  she  named,  and 
talked  with  girls  and  invited  them  over ; and  from  one  of  these  stores  I 
know  that  two  girls  have  come  and  talked  with  one  of  my  men  in  the  place  and 
said  that  they  wanted  to  make  some  easy  money.  There  is  one  other 
matter  that  you  might  be  interested  in,  and  that  is,  the  core  of  our  vice 

district,  the  system  I wanted  to  bring  that  before  you  when  I have  an 

opportunity. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  it?  A.  I was  trying  to  discover  why  it  was  that 

vice  seemed  to  flourish  in  our  section  of  the  city,  and  1 tried  to  find  the 

center  of  the  system.  I discovered  that  a certain  man,  who  runs  a gambling 
den  and  a saloon  and  a house  of  prostitution  all  in  one  building,  went  through 
the  neighborhood  and  asked  other  people  to  run  the  business,  saying  that  he 
could  get  protection.  He  had  thirty  women  in  his  place.  This  is  on  a street 
car  line,  where  hundreds  of  young  men  pass  bj-  every  day.  One  of  the  young 
men  in  the  gambling  den  told  me  that  he  lost  a hundred  and  fifty  dollars 
in  a single  night  there,  and  his  wife  came  to  me  to  help  recover  the  money. 

Q.  Did  he  recover  it?  A.  No,  the  young  man  got  “cold  feet,”  as  the  boys 
say  on  the  street,  and  he  would  not  stand  by  his  guns.  Then  this  keeper  of 
the  place,  who  was  a precinct  committeeman,  want  through  the  neighborhood 
and  offered  protection,  according  to  testimony  that  I could  produce.  He  is  now- 
working  in  the  Assessor’s  office  as  a deputy  for  five  dollars  a day.  I was  called 
before  the  Mayor.  I charged  this  before  the  City  Council.  I was  asked  to 
come  in  and  make  good.  I went  in  before  his  Honor,  the  IMayor,  and  sug- 
gested to  him  that  the  best  way  was  to  check  up  on  my  statement.  I then 
went  before  the  Civil  Service  Commission  and  had  them  bring  in  certain  individ- 
uals, whose  names  I do  not  care  to  give  here,  if  you  please,  for  this  can  be 
verified  in  other  w'avs,  and  this  was  the  testimony;  “Why,  yes.  I paid  a hun- 
dred dollars  a month ; Mrs.  So  and  So  paid  two  hundred ; Mrs.  So  and  So  paid 
three  hundred;  hotels  on  Clark  street  paid  a hundred  and  fifty.”  And  this 
woman,  whose  affidavit  I got  this  morning,  said  that  the  saloonkeeper  who 
wantdd  her  to  go  in  business  said,  “Why  I will  fix  it  all  up,  we  will  not  get  into 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


525 


. : trouble.”  I had  him  and  his  partner  and  some  of  the  women  arrested.  One 
party  said,  “I  am  not  going  to  pay  another  dollar ; these  fellows  promised  pro- 
tection and  they  didn’t  deliver  it.”  I didn’t  produce  the  proof  of  this,  but 
I was  told  that  the  bartender  in  this  place  brought  his  wife  from  a down- 
town restaurant  and  put  her  on  the  street  to  hustle  from  this  place.  I have 
quite  a bit  of  data  as  to  that. 

Q.  Doctor,  I have  heard  gossip  all  my  life  that  there  is  a connection 
between  politics  and  vice,  and  I would  like  to  know  whether  there  actually  is 
any  connection.  Can  you  get  us  any  witnesses,  any  men  or  any  women  who 
have  been  in  the  business  of  prostitution,  who  will  swear  or  produce  the  absolute 
proof,  that  they  paid  any  public  official  or  any  politician,  or  any  precinct  com- 
mitteeman, or  any  ward  committeeman,  or  any  official,  or  any  police  officer,  any 
money;  now,  not  rumor.  Doctor,  but  evidence?  A.  Now,  I don’t  know 
whether  I can  produce  the  affidavit  here,  I shall  try.  I know  where  it  is  on 
file.  I don’t  want  to  embarrass  any  gentleman  in  public  office.  I don’t  know 
whether  those  persons  who  made  the  affidavit  will  come  and  make  a new  one. 
T think  if  this  committee  would  go  into  executive  session  I could  bring  some 
'I  people  here  that  can  talk.  You  understand  that  I have  been  dealing  with  a 
' lot  of  people  confidentially.  I don’t  know  whether  they  would  come  out  into 
the  open  and  talk  before  this  Committee  or  not. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : The  Committee  is  hearing  all  testimony  in  public. 

I It  is  easy  for  one  to  misrepresent  in  a closed  room,  but  it  is  difficult  for  a per- 
son to  give  inaccurate  and  unreliable  testimony  in  an  open  meeting  before 
the  public. 

REV.  MR.  Williams  : I have  had  a woman  from  the  street  tell  me: 
“My  life  would  not  be  worth  living  if  my  name  should  be  known  in  this ; I would 
' be  hounded  and  abused  as  long  as  I stayed  here.” 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : The  most  cowardly  fellow  in  the  world  is  the 
vicious  fellow. 

I REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS:  The  woman  of  the  street  don’t  always  believe 
I that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : I wish  you  would  try  to  bring  to  this  committee 
some  definite  evidence,  not  rumors,  but  facts,  so  that  we  can  prove  up  these 
facts  in  open  session. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS:  How  long  will  you  be  sitting? 
i CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  : For  two  years. 

' REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS:  I can  produce  in  that  time. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I assure  you.  Doctor,  if  you  will  bring  evidence, 
the  testimony  of  any  man  or  any  woman,  and  can  show  to  this  committee 
these  facts,  this  committee  wilt  not  protect  any  official,  or  any  policeman,  or 
any  citizen,  regardless  of  his  position. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

I SENATOR  BEALL  : What  method  have  you  of  securing  girls  employment 
i that  you  take  out  of  these  houses?  A.  What  methods? 

(I  SENATOR  BEALL:  You  speak  about  girls  coming  to  you  and  wanting 
j to  reform  and  many  would  reform,  and  there  are  thousands  of  them  here ; 

•I  what  would  you  do  with  them?  A.  There  are  several  institutions,  and  there 
; are  a number  of  philanthropic  people,  who  are  willing  to  supply  funds  for 

i those  girls  until  they  can  get  their  health  and  on  their  feet ; and  then  I 

i would  send  them  out,  just  as  I would  any  other  girl  to  such  employment  as 

? they  would  be  capable  of  taking,  if  I were  confident  that  they  were  right  and 

i not  intending  to  lead  a Ife  of  shame. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I believe.  Doctor,  that  you  are  right,  but  I have  had 
some  experience  along  these  lines.  While  I was  Mayor  of  Alton  I was  called 
upon  by  some  ministers  in  regard  to  some  girls  they  had  picked  up  there  on 
the  street.  They  had  picked  up  three  girls,  the  night  pefore,  about  sixteen  years 
old  and  had  them  in  custody,  and  I went  over  there  with  them.  I said,  “Gen- 
tlemen, what  are  you  going  to  do  with  them,”  they  didn’t  know.  I made  a 
proposition  that  I would  give  one  hundred  dollars  towards  a home  for  taking 
care  of  these  unfortunate  girls.;. no,  they, could  not  do  it;  I said,  “I  will  tell 


524  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


you  what^  I will  do ; I will  take  one  of  these  girls  home  to  work  in  my  house 
if  you  will  take  the  other no,  they  couldn’t  do  that  either,  on  account  of 
their  boys.  I said,  “What  do  you  want  me  to  do  with  the  girls ; do  you 
want  me  to  take  them  down  the  river  and  put  a rock  around  their  necks  and 
throw  them  in?’’  I says,  “they  have  fallen,  but  for  all  that  they  are  human 
beings  just  like  you  are  and  like  I am ; now  talk  is  cheap,  what  are  you  going  to 
do  with  them?”  I says  to  them,  “You  will  preach  on  Sunday  morning  and  then 
go  home  and  have  a good  dinner  and  preach  tonight  and  tell  the  people  what 
they  ought  to  do,  and  the  people  that  will  hear  you  are  all  right,  but  you  don’t 
go  to  the  people  you  ought  to  help,  now  what  are  you  going  to  do  with  them?” 
They  have  got  a fine  Y.  M.  C.  A.  building  there,  costing  $150,000,  and  I gave 
them  $150  towards  building  it ; I was  mayor  of  the  city  at  the  time.  One 
night  a poor  man  came  into  the  station  to  sleep ; they  had  no  place  for  him 
to  sleep.  I asked  them  to  put  up  bunks  and  we  would  furnish  coffee  and  soup 
for  them.  I says,  “Let’s  do  it no,  they  would  not  do  that.  It  was  merely 
a clubhouse  for  rich  men’s  sons,  that’s  all  it  was.  Now,  if  you  ministers,  you 
good  men,  will  just  get  out  and  help  on  this  thing  we  can  do  something. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS;  I want  to  tell  you  that  when  I came  here 
one  of  the  first  things  I did  was  to  put  out  a sign  high  in  front  of  my 
curch,  saying,  “If  you  are  in  trouble  come  on,  I will  help  you;  if  you  are  in 
need  of  employment,  we  will  get  it  for  you ; if  you  are  in  need  of  clothing 
or  of  food,  we  will  furnish  you.”  We  are  a church  that  serves  the  people. 
Anybody  can  come,  and  they  have  been  coming. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  means  have  you  to  take  care  of  them?  Do 
the  good,  rich  people  of  your  church,  do  they  help  you  financially?  You 
can’t,  out  of  your  salary,  spare  sufficient  to  take  care  of  all  those  people? 
A.  I can’t  take  care  of  all  of  them  out  of  that.  I have  used  my  own  private 
resources,  and  the  resources  furnished  me  by  others.  I have  taken  girls 
directly  out  of  jail  and  into  my  home,  and  I have  said  to  them,  “Won’t  you 
take  one  in  yours,  and  yours,  and  yours,  and  you  can  help  us.” 

SENATOR  BEALL ; They  are  not  all  like  you. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS:  I can  only  answer  for  myself.  Gentlemen,  if 
you  can  break  up  commercialized  vice  and  make  it  unprofiitable  to  get  girls 
and  exploit  them,  then  you  have  more  than  half  solved  the  problem. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  hope  to  go  deeper;  we  hope  also  to  go 
into  a study  of  the  low  wage  problem. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS:  I am  absolutely  with  you. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Do  you  know  that  we  have  found  that  four  out 
of  five  girls,  or  three  out  of  four  girls  that  we  have  talked  to  at  these 
private  meetings  that  we  have  had,  that  four  out  of  five  say  that  they  never 
would  have  fallen  if  it  were  not  that  they  were  hungry,  and  were  working 
for  from  three  and  a half  to  five  dollars  a week;  now,  we  don’t  say  that  that 
is  all  of  the  causes,  and  we  do  not  say  that  the  girls  working  for  low  wages 
are  immoral,  but  we  do  say  that  it  has  a tendency  towards  prostitution,  star^'a- 
tion  wages  has. 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS;  You  are  absolutely  right. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  think  then  we  are  on  the  right  road? 

REV.  MR.  WILLIAMS;  Yes,  sir,  I do,  I preach  it  right  from  my 
pulpit. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Doctor,  can  you  furnish  the  committee,  or  the 
investigators  for  the  committee,  the  names  of  any  men  or  women,  who,  accord- 
ing to  their  statements  to  you,  have  paid  to  politicians,  police  officers,  or  any 
public  officer  any  money  for  protection. 

REV.  MR.  'williams  : Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  do  so  now?  A.  Privately? 

A.  Ye.s,  so  that  subpoenaes  can  be  served  upon  them  and  have  them 
brought  here.  A.  Yes,  sir,  I will  do  so. 

E.  J.  Howse’s  Testimony. 

E.  J.  HOWSE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  committee,  being  first  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 


Public  MEEtiNCS  and  Testimony 
EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


525 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  E.  J.  Howse. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Special  investigator. 

Q.  Located  where?  A.  In  St.  Louis. 

Q.  You  have  been  investigating  into  the  matter  of  white  slavery?  A. 
Not  so  much  into  the  matter  of  white  slavery  itself  as  to  the  causes  of  vice. 

I Q.  What  do  you  find  the  principle  causes  of  vice  to  be?  A.  There  are 
three  causes. 

, Q.  Give  us  one?  A.  Poverty. 

' Q.  Give  us  another?  A.  Wealth. 

Q.  Give  us  cause  three?  A.  Ultra-religion. 

Q.  Cause  one  is  poverty;  cause  two  is  wealth,  and  cause  three  is  ultra- 
religion. Now  let  us  analyse  those  three:  poverty,  what  does  that  consist  of? 

I A.  That  consists  of  the  low  wage  paid  to  working  girls,  so  low  that  when  they 
are  working  they  are  able  possibly  to  get  by ; but  let  that  girl  be  sick  for  a 
week  or  ten  days,  and  she  has  no  money  accumulated,  so  that  she  can  do 
for  herself,  and  she  has  absolutely  no  one  to  do  anything  for  her. 

Q.  Go  ahead.  A.  Now,  I can  perhaps  make  that  plain.  Any  gentleman 
in  here  during  the  noon  hour  any  day  can  go  down  to  the  large  saloon  with- 
out a cent  in  his  pocket,  can  go  in  and  mingle  with  the  crowd,  go  over  to 
the  free  lunch  counter,  get  a couple  of  pretty  fair  sandwiches,  and  walk 
out  without  being  asked  for  any  money,  or  without  being  asked  for  a cent. 
Now,  where  is  the  girl  going  to  get  hers?  She  has  absolutely  no  chance  to 
get  anything  without  asking  for  it.  And  the  low  wages  that  are  paid  pre- 
vents her  from  accummulating  anything  that  she  may  lay  by  for  a rainy  day. 
Another  thing,  another  vast  cause  due  to  low  wages  is  the  young  widow,  the 
! young  widow  with  a baby,  an  infant,  maybe  two,  maybe  three,  absolutely  moral. 

I Her  husband  leaves  her  without  any  funds.  She  has  no  relatives.  Nobody 
wants  to  take  the  baby.  The  girl  may  be  perfectly  willing  to  work,  but  she 
does  not  care  to  place  the  child  in  a home.  No  mother  cares  to  place  her 
child  in  a home  if  she  can  prevent  it.  She  has  to  spend  a couple  of  dollars 
a week  for  board  for  the  baby;  she  has  to  spend  fifty  cents  a week  for 
washing  for  the  baby;  she  has  to  spend  fifty  or  seventy-five  cents  a 
week  possibly  for  clothes,  some  medical  attention ; if  she  cares  to  go  and  visit 

I the  child  on  the  street  car  after  the  day’s  work  is  done  that  costs  her  some- 
thing, and  if  she  is  not  making  twelve  or  thirteen  dollars  a week  she  can’t 
get  by,  to  use  a street  expression,  unless  she  goes  out  and  hustles  for  the 
difference.  Sometimes^  she  does.  Very  often  she  says,  if  she  has  to  hustle 
some,  she  might  as  well  make  a living  out  of  it,  and  therefore  she  begins  the 
life. 

Q.  Have  any  cases  come  under  your  personal  observation,  to  your  posi- 
tive knowledge,  where  good  girls  have  been  forced  to  go  wrong  merely  because 
they  could  not  live  on  the  wages  paid  them?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  How  many  of  such  cases  have  come  under  your  observation  the  last 
year,  or  two  years?  A.  It  would  be  hard  for  me  to  say  that  I was  positive 
of ; some  fifteen  or  twenty. 

Q.  What  can  cure  that  condition,  Mr.  Howse?  A.  Education  and  an 
economic  regulation,  an  economic  system  of  regulation  of  salaries. 

Q.  How  about  a minimum  wage  law?  A.  It  has  its  good  points  and  its 
bad  points.  All  human  beings  are  not  equipped  with  the  same  amount  of  gray 
matter,  male  as  well  as  female,  and  female  as  well  as  male.  If  you  make 
a minimum  wage  law  and  place  the  inimum  wage  at  a reasonable  figure,  what 
is  the  girl  of  low  mentality  going  to  do?  They  would  not  employ  her  at  all, 
because  she  can’t  deliver  the  amount  of  energy  that  will  be  demanded  of  a 
girl  under  the  minimum  wage  law. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  any  girl  or  any  woman  who  has  to  work,  regard- 
less of  her  ability,  is  entitled  to  a living  wage?  A.  I do  absolutely,  but  who 
is  going  to  employ  her;  that  is  the  question?  You  can’t  force  men  to  employ 
this  girl. 


526  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Well,  he  has  got  to  get  a supply  some  place.  A. 
That  is  true. 

Q.  He  can’t  get  along,  he  can’t  get  high-class  girls  all  at  once?  A.  That 

is  true,  but  I don’t  want  you  gentlemen  to  misunderstand  me  when  I say 

in  a way  that  the  minimum  wage  law  is  not  a good  thing.  It  will  be  a good 
thing  for  the  vast  majority.  It  will  be  a step  in  the  right  direction,  but  some- 
thing will  have  to  be  done  for  the  girl  who  cannot  earn  the  minimum  which 
is  established  by  legislation. 

Q.  And  your  answer  to  that  is,  that  the  girl  who  under  the  present 
system  gets  five  dollars  a week,  she  would  not  be  employed  if  she  was  not 
worth  eight  or  nine  dollars  to  her  employer?  A.  That  is  true. 

Q.  In  other  words,  they  won’t  employ  a girl  at  any  price  unless  she  is 

capable  of  earning  a living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  statements  or  recommendations  or  suggestions 
to  make  to  this  committee?  A.  I simply  wanted  to  speak  of  the  ultra 
wealthy,  or  overly  weathly  man. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  There  is  no  girl  that  ever  went  wrong  without  some  man 
having  something  to  do  with  her,  and  you  can  take  a girl,  a moral  girl  who 
has  never  been  in  a house  of  prostitution,  dress  her  up  in  the  clothes  of  a 
prostitute,  and  give  her  a hand-bag,  and  start  her  down  the  line,  and  I will 
gamble  that  she  can’t  get  in  one  house  in  twenty-five  to  become  a prostitute. 
They  don’t  want  her.  In  the  first  place,  they  are  afraid  she  is  employed  by 
some  investigating  body,  and  they  want  to  know  who  she  is,  where  she  came 
from  and  what  her  experience  has  been,  before  they  are  going  to  take  her 
into  a house  of  prostitution.  Consequently  she  has  got  to  apply  to  a friend; 
you  have  got  the  “pimp”  and  the  “procuress,”  so-called.  The  “pimp”  and 
the  “procuress”  don’t  make  their  living  primarily  on  what  a girl  picks  up  on 
the  street,  but  the  most  of  it  is  what  they  can  procure  from  very  wealthy 
men,  who  have  them  go  out  and  procure  the  services  of  an  innocent  girl  for 
them.  Once  a girl  is  fallen  it  is  up  to  the  “pimp”  and  “procuress”  to  keep 
her  down.  Then  when  they  get  her  into  a house  of  prostitution  they  take  her 
clothes  away  so  she  can’t  get  outside,  and  she  is  practically  a prisoner,  and  these 
organizations  don’t  want  to  have  anything  to  do  with  her.  It  is  a question  of 
supply  and  demand  as  long,  as  you  don’t  detect  the  male  and  eliminate  him. 
As  fast  as  you  get  one  girl  out  of  a house  of  prostitution,  it  is  merely  creating 
a demand  for  the  “pimp”  and  the  “procuress”  to  put  another  one  in  her  place. 
It  is  properly  a question  of  education.  You  have  got  to  educate  the  male  and 
the  female  up  to  the  standpoint  of  morality,  which  is  based  upon  a simple  code 
of  ethics  and  not  upon  nature.  You  take  your  Young  Women’s  Christian 
Association,  and  as  long  as  a girl  is  able  to  pay  five  dollars  a week  they  will 
keep  her,  but  how  long  will  they  keep  her  out  of  a job?  It  is  the  same  with 
many  of  your  other  institutions.  You  take  a girl  that  has  fallen;  suppose 
she  goes  to  a minister  or  is  picked  up,  I am  not  speaking  of  individuals,  but 
as  a class,  they  try  to  put  her  in  a home.  Mrs.  Brown  says,  “My  conscience! 
I don’t  want  her  in  my  house  where  she  can  associate  with  Mabel,”  and  Mr. 
Smith  says,  “No,  I don’t  want  her  around  my  son  John.”  Now,  what  are 
you  going  to  do  with  her?  As  long  as  they  don’t  show  charity  thernselves 
for  these  girls  and  do  what  they  can  for  them,  all  of  your  vice  legislation 
is  not  going  to  do  a bit  of  good.  These  people  have  got  to  have  the  welfare 
of  the  girls  at  heart. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  said  you  were  an  investigator;  where  are  you 
from  or  who  are  you  investigating  for?  A.  I have  been  connected  for  over 
two  years  with  the  city  of  St.  Louis. 

SENx\TOR  BE-ALL : I live  at  Alton,  just  twenty-five  miles  from  St. 
Louis,  and  I know  something  of  your  city.  A.  We  have  a woman  living  down 

there  at  St.  Louis  by  the  name  of  AI W’ ; perhaps  you  have  heard 

of  her.  I refer  to  that  case  because  it  is  a specific  instance.  She  came  to  St. 
Louis  in  the  year  of  the  World’s  Fair,  and  she  is  said  to  have  been  one  of 
the  most  beautiful  women  that  ever  came  to  St.  Louis.  She  was  brought 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


527 


there  by  a “pimp”  and  she  became  a panel  worker,  ultimately  a street  walker, 
and  it  was  on  her  testimony  that  over  one  hundred  police  officers  and  other 
individuals  were  either  removed  from  office  or  sent  to  penitentiary,  and  today 
she  is  selling  “coke”  or  “snow,”  as  it  is  called,  morphine  in  what  is  termed 
“Philippine  row.”  If  you  want  the  actual  person  who  can  give  you  informa- 
tion, that  woman  can  give  it  to  you.  Now,  in  regard  to  drinking.  There  is 
no  boy  ever  becomes  a drunkard  by  seeing  a drunk  laying  in  the  gutter ; it  is 
from  such  men  as  you  and  I who  walk  in  the  front  door  of  a saloon  and  get 
a drink  and  walk  out  again,  we  are  the  men  who  are  responsible.  They  try 
to  emulate  us  and  think  it  is  smart.  So  is  the  young  girl,  who  comes  in  from 
the  country  with  no  fine  clothes.  She  sees  these  private  prostitutes  and  street 
walkers  going  around  the  street  with  fine  clothes,  and  she  wants  to  emulate 
them.  It  is  not  the  man  or  woman  in  the  gutter,  or  the  actual  woman  in  the 
house  of  prostitution  who  makes  prostitutes. 

CHAIRMAN  OHARA;  Does  “coke,”  “snow,”  ever  make  prostitutes?  A. 
No,  it  is  largely  a result  of  prostitution ; it  is  the  result  of  prostitution,  it  is 
not  one  of  the  causes ; it  is  one  of  the  effects.  The  peculiarity  of  cocaine  is  that 
it  makes  a man  who  hasn’t  got  a dollar  think  that  he  is  a millionaire. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  It  is  a cheap  way  of  getting  a million. 

MR.  HOWSE;  Yes,  but  it  is  very  expensive  in  the  end. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  has  any  connection  with  the  matter  of  white  slavery? 
A.  Drugs  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  only  it  has  the  effect.  I don’t  think  that  there  are,  oh, 
over  half  of  the  women  who  are  drugged  into  white  slavery,  over 
half  of  them.  In  the  first  place,  if  a girl  has  been  properly  educated 
by  her  parents,  if  her  parents  have  enough  interest  in  her  to  see  where  she  is 
going,  this  girl  who  has  a home,  she  is  not  going  to  go  into  places  where 
they  are  going  to  drug  her.  Most  mothers  and  fathers  refrain  from  talking  to 
daughters  about  their  condition  at  a time  in  life  when  they  should  receive 
all  their  instruction  at  home,  instead  of  from  girls  in  high  schools  or  boarding 
schools.  If  they  are  properly  educated,  the  question  of  drugs  is  not  going 
to  affect  them. 

Whereupon  the  further  hearing  of  testimony  by  the  Committee 
was  adjourned  until  2 o’clock  P.  M.  of  the  same  day,  April  14,  1913. 


SESSION  XX 


4 


Proprietress  of  resort  testifies  to  “protection”  money  paid 
by  her.  Manager,  porter  and  several  guests  of  the  Normandy 
Hotel  explain  how  it  is  conducted.  Several  proprietors  of  dance 
halls  defend  their  establishments.  Representative  of  Juvenile  Pro- 
tective Association  gives  information.  Testimony  of: 

Sarah  Mueller; 

Ernest  L.  McHenry,  proprietor  Normandy  Hotel; 

Fred  H.  Hardin,  porter,  Normandy  Hotel; 

Mrs.  W C , guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

Mr.  W — C , guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

A — L , guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

E- — J -,  guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

John  W — -,  guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

Marie  H , guest  at  Normandy  Hotel; 

Ed.  Field,  bartender; 

R.  B.  Phelps,  dance  hall  proprietor; 

Mrs.  Margaret  Long,  connected  with  the  Juvenile  Court; 
Frank  Olson,  dance  hall  proprietor. 

Chicago,  April  14,  1913,  2 o’clock  P.  M. 

La  Salle  Hotel. 


i The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Chairman  O’Hara, 
Senator  Beall  and  Senator  Tossey  being  present,  the  following  pro- 
ceedings were  had : 


Sarah  Mueller’s  Testimony. 

SARAH  MUELLER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CH.\IRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Sarah  Mueller. 

Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  517  La  Salle  avenue. 

Q.  Do  you  live  there?  A.  Yes.  That  is  my  own  property. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  a sporting  house?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  conducting  one  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  conduct  one?  A.  Until  they  closed  up. 

Q.  Since  then  you  have  not  been  in  that  business?-  A.  No. 

Q.  At  the  time  they  closed  up  how  many  girls  had  you  in  your  place? 

A.  Sometimes  three,  sometimes  two. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  these  girls.  Madam?  A.  They  come  to  the  house 
unasked  for. 

Q.  Were  some  of  them  young  girls?  A.  Well,  no,  not  real  young;  one 
was  a Swedish  girl,  a real  young  girl ; she  looked  an  innocent  good  girl ; most 
of  them  come  in  and  ask  for  the  place. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  those  girls,  so  much  a week,  or  a certain  percentage 
of  what  they  made?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  of  the  money  did  you  give  them?  A.  Half  of  it. 

Q.  This  place  was  where,  at  517  La  Salle  avenue?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  any  policeman  ever  come  to  your  place?  A.  Yes,  they  have 
come  in  when  the  place  was  run. 


529 


530 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  often  would  the  police  come  around?  A.  Oh,  once  in  a while, 
about  every  week  or  so. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  them  any  money?  A.  No,  sir.  . | 

Q.  Never  gave  any  policeman  any  money?  A.  No,  sir,  no  policeman. 

Q.  Did  you  give  money  to  anybody?  A.  Yes,  they  sent  a man  to  me.  | 

Q.  Who  sent  a man  to  you?  A.  They  sent  a man  to  me  for  protection 
money. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  man?  A.  This  was  last  year,  I didn’t'know  | 
the  man  whom  they  sent ; he  was  a tall  man,  and  he  says,  “I  am  here  to  collect  ‘ 
protection  money  that  is  due,  two  hundred  dollars.” 

Q.  Two  hundred  dollars?  A.  Yes,  but  I didn’t  give  it  to  him. 

Q.  Did  anything  happen  after  you  refused  to  give  him  two  hundred 
dollars?  A.  No,  we  closed  up  in  about  four  weeks;  the  first  of  the  month, 
then  we  closed  up. 

Q.  This  was  about  four  w'eeks  before  the  houses  w-ere  closed  up?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  any  houses  around  you  permitted  to  run  after  that  four 
weeks;  at  the  time  they  closed  you  up  w'ere  any  other  houses  permitted  to  run? 

A.  Yes,  the  next  door  to  me,  they  were  running.  • 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  woman  next  door  who  ran  the  house? 

A..  Mrs.  Matz. 

Q.  Do  you  know  her  well?  A.  Yes.  . , 

Q.  Now,  did  you  ever  tell  her  that  a man  came  around  to  get  money  from 
you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I did;  I told  her  and  she  told  me  that  they  had  been  to 
her  place. 

Q.  She  told  you  that  somebody  had  seen  her  too?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  she  give  the  person  any  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  did  she  give  the  man,  did  she  say?  A.  Two  hundred 
dollars. 

Q.  And  she  was  permitted  to  remain  open  after  you  were  closed?  A. 
Yes,  she  gave  two  hundred  dollars  and  in  a couple  of  weeks  she  gave  him 
again,  and  then  they  say  she  had  to  close  up ; she  wouldn’t  pay  the  money  and 
she  had  to  close,  and  then  they  came  again  and  says,  “Now  you  have  to  give 

another  two  hundred  dollars.”  She  paid  him  four  hundred  dollars  in  all  in 

five  weeks. 

Q.  She  was  permitted  to  remain  open?  A.  Yes,  sir;  finalN  they  closed 
her  up  anyhow.  I made  complaint  against  her. 

Q.  Is  she  closed  up  now?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  quarrel  with  her?  A.  Well,  not  to  say  a real 
quarrel. 

Q.  There  has  been  some  bitter  feeling  between  you?  A.  I can’t  say 
very  much. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  run  your  house  at  that  place  as  a sporting  house?  A. 
Well,  I think  it  is  about  nine  or  ten  years. 

Q.  Is  this  the  only  occasion  that  you  were  asked  to  give  any  money  to 
anybody?  A.  Yes,  that  is  the  only  time. 

Q.  You  never  before  had  given  any  money  to  anjr  police  officer?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  to  any  politician?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  to  anyone  claiming  to  have  influence,  politician,  police  officer  or 
other  person?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  run  about  nine  years  there  without  being  closed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  this  is  the  only  occasion  that  anybody  ever  asked  for  any  money? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Y'ou  don’t  know  who  this  man  was,  this  tall  man?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  saw  him  could  you  recognize  him?  A.  Y"es,  I think  I could. 

Q.  Then  will  you  describe  to  us  as  best  jmu  can  this  man?  A.  He  was 
a tall,  slim  man ; he  was  sent  over  to  collect  protection  money. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


531 


1:  Q.  Clean  shaven?  A.  Yes. 

[f  Q.  About  how  old?  A.  Well,  about  thirty-five  or  so. 

1 0 Q.  What  kind  of  hair?  A.  Dark  hair,  about  thirty-five  years  old. 
p'  Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  he  was  not  bluffing;  that  is,  might  he  have 

iij:  come  to  tell  you  that  he  was  there  to  collect  protection  money,  and  been  with- 
al out  authority,  merely  a swindler?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

( ; Q.  Why  don’t  you  think  so?  A.  Because. 

r Q.  Let  us  try  to  fix  definitely  the  time  that  this  man  visited  your  place; 

j'l  what  month  was  it?  A.  I guess  it  was  in  the  end  of  May. 

[l!  Q.  The  end  of  last  May?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

jt  Q.  Then  after  he  came  you  continued  to  run  just  as  you  had  before  for 

if  about  four  weeks?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I continued  to  run  until  they  come  and  said 
If  that  I must  close  up. 

I Q.  What  police  officers  came  and  told  you  that  you  must  close  up?  A. 

fi  Why,  that  was  Mr.  Koerner,  and  Mr.  Pangborn,  they  came  around  and  told 
Ipi  me  to  close;  there  was  so  much  talk,  they  wanted  me  to  close  up. 
r Q.  What  did  you  say  to  them?  A.  I said,  “they  first  made  us  pay  so 

il  much  and  so  much.” 

i Q.  You  said  you  had  paid  so  much?  A.  Yes,  and  then  they  closed 
' " me  up. 

j|  Q.  To  whom  did  you  pay  this  money?  A.  I paid  it  to  a man,  that  slim 
I man ; I paid  a hundred  dollars. 

; Q.  He  asked  you  for  two  hundred  and  you  gave  him  one  hundred?  A. 

II  could  not  afford  to  pay  two  hundred,  and  I gave  him  a hundred. 

Q.  It  was  the  same  man  to  whom  you  had  given  on  preceding  months? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  had  been  in  the  habit  of  paying  one  hundred  dollars  a month? 
A.  One  hundred  dollars  a month. 

Q.  How  many  months  did  you  pay  that  one  hundred  dollars?  A.  I only 
paid  that  one  month,  in  January. 

; Q.  When  you  gave  the  one  hundred  dollars  and  said  you  could  not  pay 

!;  him  two  hundred,  what  did  he  say?  A.  He  said  it  was  all  right. 

I Q.  And  went  away  with  your  one  hundred  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  After  you  paid  that  one  hundred  dollars,  when  the  policeman  came 

I around,  did  he  tell  you  that  was  all  right,  that  everything  was  all  right?  A. 
I Yes,  they  told  me  it  was  all  right,  that  I could  run. 

' Q.  Then  this  man  came  to  tell  you  to  close  up,  that  there  had  been  a 

I lot  of  talk,  and  wanted  you  to  close  up  for  a while?  A.  Yes,  but  the  woman 
next  door  was  running  after  that,  after  they  closed  me  up  and  I said  it  was 
not  right.  I went  after  them  and  told  them  that.  They  said,  “Let  her  make 
' some  money;  let  her  make  some  money.” 

j Q.  You  gradually  re-opened?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I re-opened;  I said  “as  long 

I as  that  woman  next  door  is  open  I will  open  too.”  I was  open  about  eight  or 
ten  days  and  then  they  came  again.  They  were  not  so  serious  in  it ; I didn’t 
close,  and  then  they  come  again  after,  eight  weeks  after  that,  and  they  says, 
“you  must  close  on  account  of  somebody  here  kicking.”  And  then  I closed  up. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  houses  that  are  open  today  in  your  neighborhood? 
A.  I don’t  know,  I don’t  bother  myself  about  it. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  for  a living  now.  Madam?  A.  I got  money. 

Q.  How  much  have  you  got;  how  much  are  you  worth  now.  Madam?  A 

hundred  thousand  dollars?  A.  Oh,  no. 

Q.  Fifty  thousand?  A.  No,  I got  twenty  thousand  dollars;  when  I sell 
that  place  I will  get  out  of  it.  I have  got  the  house  for  sale.  I would  like 
to  sell  it. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  house  you  have  got  about  twenty  thousand  dollars  in 
cash?  A.  No,  with  the  house. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  business?  A*.  This  money  didn’t 
come  from  that,  you  know. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  made  any  money  out  of  the  business?  A.  Yes. 


532  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  much  did  you  make  in  your  business  a year?  A.  Oh,  I don’t 
know,  not  much. 

Q.  Ten  thousand  dollars?  A.  Oh,  I don’t  know,  not  much.  I didn’t 
make  much;  on  account  of  closing  up  at  twelve  o’clock,  I don’t  make  so  much; 
1 only  let  certain  men  in. 

Q.  What  have  you,  a flat  or  a house?  A.  I got  a house. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  When  this  man  came  and  asked  you  for  this 
money  did  he  tell  you  who  it  was  for,  this  man  you  have  spoken  of? 
A.  Yes,  for  protection. 

Q.  Who  was  to  get  this  money,  did  he  say?  A.  Yes,  they  told  me. 
It  was  for  a man  in  the  City  Hall. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name,  this  man  in  the  City  Hall?  A.  No. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  it,  really  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  have  been  open  about  nine  years?  A.  Yes,  the  house  was 
all  the  time  open,  but  they  never  bothered  me  before. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a man  named  Fries?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  come  or  send  to  you  for  protection  money?  A.  Yes, 
he  came,  but  I would  not  give  it  to  him.  He  collected  all  around,  but  I would 
not  give  it  to  him. 

Q.  How  long  ago  is  that?  A.  Last  year. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  he  want  you  to  give  him?  A.  Two  hun- 
dred dollars. 

Q.  Were  any  of  the  other  houses  giving  him  two  hundred  dollars 
to  your  knowledge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  houses  were  paying  him?  A.  Well,  I know  that  ^Irs. 
Matz  paid. 

Q.  You  know  that  Mrs.  Matz  paid?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  Dora  McVain. 

Q.  They  told  you  so?  A.  Yes,  she  said  she  paid  a hundred  and 
fifty  dollars. 

Q.  A month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  this  same  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRAIAN  O’HARA:  Did  the  police  ever  break  in  your  door? 
A.  Yes,  once.  I told  them,  I says,  “I  want  a man  out  of  the  room;” 
they  had  a girl  there  that  was  working,  and  they  broke  in  the  door. 

Q.  Who  broke  in  the  door?  A.  A police  officer.  He  thought  I 
had  a man  in  there. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  when  he  broke  in  the  door?  A.  I told  them, 
“What  for  are  you  breaking  that  door?”  And  he  said  there  was  a telephone 
message  that  the  house  was  open. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  this?  A.  Last  fall. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  any  presents  to  police  officers?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  them  anything?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  gave  a policeman  anything  in  any  way,  shape,  manner 
or  form?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  gave  anyone  any  hush  money  or  protection  monej', 
except  that  one  hundred  dollars?  A.  I never  did.  The  place  was  kept 
real  quiet.  The  place  was  closed  real  early,  and  nobody  bothered  me  in 
the  eight  or  nine  years,  and  then  they  come  up  and  wanted  some  mone}'. 

Q.  You  are  going  out  of  business  now?  A.  \’^s. 

Q.  Never  going  back  into  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I am  not. 

Q.  You  are  going  back  into  a respectable  kind  of  a life?  A.  Yes, 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  533 

Q.  Never  going  to  be  in  fear  of  the  police  or  politicians  or  anybody? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  being  so,  not  fearing  anybody  and  being  in  a position  to 

tell  the  truth,  you  say  during  all  those  years  you  gave  up  only  one  hun- 

dred dollars  on  one  lone  occasion?  A.  Yes,  I never  gave  any  money 
to  the  police,  never. 

Q.  All  you  know  is  that  other  woman  competitors  of  yours  have 
told  you  that  they  were  giving  money?  A.  Well,  I know  only  that  time 
that  he  said,  “Now,  the  police  is  going  to  be  around,  and  I want  pay  for 
protection.”  That  was  the  last  of  June,  or  the  end  of  May. 

Q.  You  know  what  politics  are?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  there  are  campaigns  once  in  a while?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  given  any  money  to  a campaign  fund?  A.  No, 

sir. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  asked  for  any?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Never  heard  of  anybody  collecting  money  for  that  purpose? 

A.  No. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  them  collecting  money  among  your  neigh- 
bors for  a campaign  fund?  A.  No,  they  come  with  tickets  for  a ball. 

Q.  What  ball?  A.  A ball,  for  a policemen’s  ball,  and  we  always 
took  tickets.  The  policemen  come;  I always  took  tickets  of  them.  They 
had  some  show  in  the  Auditorium. 

Q.  How  many  tickets  would  you  take  from  them?  A.  Five  or  ten. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  much  apiece?  A.  One  dollar. 

Q.  You  would  not  take  more  than  ten?  A.  No.  Sometimes  I would 
take  them  and  give  the  tickets  back. 

Q.  You  would  hand  them  the  money?  A.  Yes. 

E.  L.  McHenry’p  Testimony. 

E.  L.  McHENRY,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Ernest  L. 
McHenry. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manager  of  the  Normandy  hotel. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  manager  there?  A.  A little  over  four 
years. 

Q.  Do  you  have  a financial  interest  in  the  hotel?  A.  No. 

Q.  Who  owns  the  Normandy  hotel?  A.  H.  M.  Newbold. 

Q.  He  is  still  the  owner  of  it?  A.  It  is  a lady,  Mrs.  Newbold. 

Q.  She  is  the  sole  owner?  A.  Yes,  so  far  as  I know. 

Q.  That  hotel  is  located  where?  A.  417  Wabash  Avenue,  South 
Wabash  Avenue. 

Q.  It  consists  of  how  many  floors?  A.  Six  floors. 

Q.  The  ground  floor  is  devoted  to  what  purpose?  A.  A restaurant; 
that  is,  we  don’t  serve  meals  there;  it  is  a bar  and  cafe. 

Q.  The  second  floor  is  used  for  what  purpose?  A.  The  office, 
parlors  and  rooms. 

Q.  And  on  the  other  floors  are  rooms?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  are  how  many  ways  of  getting  into  that  hotel?  A.  From 
the  street,  on  the  main  floor. 

Q.  You  can  get  in  from  Wabash  Avenue?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  get  in  from  the  rear  way?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Simply  come  in  from  the  rear  way?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  This  cafe  is  open  to  both  men  and  women  on  the  ground  floor? 
A,  Yes,  sir. 


534  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Is  it  possible  for  a man  and  woman  to  leave  the  cafe  there  and 
go  to  the  second  floor  without  being  seen  by  anyone?  A.  Well,  they 
can  go  right  from  the  cafe  through  the  hall  to  the  elevator,  and  then  go 
to  the  second  floor. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  elevator?  A.  One  elevator. 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  way  of  getting  from  the  cafe  on  the  ground 
floor  to  the  second  floor  without  going  outside  of  the  building?  A.  Only 
by  coming  through  the  same  hall  and  going  to  the  front  stairway  or 
rear  stairway. 

Q.  Couples  coming  to  that  hotel  as  guests,  are  they  required  to 
have  with  them  any  kind  of  baggage?  A.  No. 

Q.  They  are  not?  A.  No,  nothing  at  all. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  Mr.  McHenry,  are  the  people  who  go  to 
that  hotel  married?  A.  That  is  something  we  do  not  know;  they  register 
as  man  and  wife,  and  that  is  all  we  take  the  trouble  to  know. 

Q.  You  take  them  at  their  word  whether  they  are  man  and  wife? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  can  go  there  and  register  as  man  and  wife,  and  that  is 
all  that  you  would  know  about  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Every  man  going  there  is  required  to  register?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
absolutely. 

Q.  No  one  can  get  a room  there  without  registering?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  serve  drinks  in  the  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  sometimes  rent  rooms  to  more  than  one  couple  during 
the  night?  A.  Absolutely  not — oh,  do  you  mean  the  same  room  over 
again? 

Q.  Yes,  the  same  room  over  again?  A.  We  probablj^  do  once  in 
a while,  yes. 

Q.  It  happens  quite  frequently,  doesn’t  it?  A.  Well,  I am  not  the 
clerk.  I don’t  know  whether  he  does  or  not;  I can’t  say;  I imagine  they 
do  sometimes. 

Q.  Then  a man  and  a woman  sometimes  go  to  that  hotel  and  remain 
there,  we  will  say,  for  an  hour  and  then  leave;  enough  to  satisfy  a man 
of  ordinary  intelligence  and  astutness  that  they  are  not  there  for  the 
purpose  of  seeking  lodging  for  the  night,  but  you  don’t  care  about  that; 
you  don’t  go  into  that:  you  consider  that  none  of  your  business?  A.  They 
have  a room  for  the  day,  for  twenty-four  hours;  they  may  go  out  and 
come  back,  for  twenty-four  hours;  they  have  it  for  a daj'.  If  that  room 
is  taken  while  they  are  out  we  give  them  another  room. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  charge  for  your  best  rooms  for  one  daj^?  A. 

Three  dollars. 

Q.  What  do  you  charge  for  your  poorest  rooms  for  one  day?  A. 
Two  dollars  or  a dollar  and  a half. 

Q.  Have  you  any  different  rates  for  a shorter  period  of  time?  A.  No. 

Q.  Anyone  who  goes  there  has  to  pay  for  twenty-four  hours?  A. 
Just  the  same,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  generally  stay  twenty-four  hours?  A.  No,  some  stay 
less,  half  a day,  some  stay  two  or  three  days  and  some  stay  a week. 

Q.  Some  stay  an  hour  or  so?  A.  I cannot  say  anything  about  that; 

I am  not  in  the  office,  and  I don’t  know  if  they  stay  a day  or  half  a day; 

you  see  we  have  others  that  come  there. 

Q.  When  a transient  couple  comes  in,  are  they  assigned  to  certain 
floors?  A.  No,  not  necessarily,  no. 

Q.  You  haven’t  certain  floors  reserv'ed  for  people  who  are  living 
there  regularly?  A.  MYll,  not  exactly;  we  have  them  living  on  prettj' 
near  every  floor  in  the  house,  except  the  first  floor,  what  we  call  parlor 
floor. 

Q.  But  not  on  the  parlor  floor?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  are  around  a good  deal,  Mr,  McHenry,  as  manager?  A. 
Mostly  downstairs. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


535 


Q.  You  occasionally  have  seen  men  and  women  downstairs  drinking 
and  then  go  upstairs?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  happens  frequently,  does  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  a man  come  in  the  cafe  downstairs  with  a 
woman,  take  several  drinks,  get  her  to  take  several  drinks  and  then  go 
I upstairs?  A.  I haven’t  just  seen  it  done;  it  probably  has  been  done, 
>i-  but  I haven’t  seen  them. 

j Q.  You  have  seen  men  and  women  drinking  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  Later  you  have  seen  them  go  upstairs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I!  Q.  Would  you  say  that  it  might  be  possible  for  a man  to  take  a 

ii  girl  into  your  cafe,  as  he  might  into  any  other  cafe,  induce  her  to  take 
a strong  drink,  and  then  take  her,  while  under  the  influence  of  the  drink, 
I to  a room  upstairs?  A.  Yes,  sir;  if  they  registered  upstairs  as  man  and 
j wife. 

Q.  That  could  happen?  A.  Yes. 

■!  Q.  This  book  that  I have  here  is  your  register?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  are  entered  here  the  names  of  all  of  your  guests  at  the 
dates  on  which  they  are  registered?  A.  Understand  me,  we  have  theatrical 
people  there  by  the  week;  some  had  been  four  or  five  or  six  weeks  there 
.1  and  some  regularly  by  the  year.  Those  that  come  in  for  four  or  five 
i weeks  are  not  on  that  book,  but  they  are  there  every  day  as  they  arrive. 

Q.  Can  anybody  call  up  by  telephone  and  have  the  clerk  register 
for  him?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  handwriting  here  is  all  that  of  the  guests  themselves? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  None  is  in  the  handwriting  of  any  clerk?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  me  about  that  back  entrance  to  your  hotel.  A.  There  is 
an  alley  coming  in  from  Van  Buren  Street,  it  is  just  a back  entrance  into 
the  alley.  You  come  up  the  alleyway,  leading  up  to  the  front  elevator, 
( and  there  is  another  entrance  leading  into  the  bar,  where  you  can  come 
into  the  bar-room. 

Q.  Would  you  say  it  might  be  possible  for  a girl  to  come  in  that 
; back  way  and  a man  to  come  in  the  front  way  and  meet  her  upstairs; 
I that  rhight  be  possible?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

jj  Q.  Have  you  ever  known  that  to  happen?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  ever  seen  it?  A.  I have  seen  a girl  coming  through 
the  back,  but  I could  not  see  the  man  coming  in  the  front;  I can’t  see 
the  two  places  at  once. 

Q.  Do  you  think  this  is  a respectable  place?  A.  It  is  as  respectable 
n as  any  place  in  the  city. 

I Q.  As  any  hotel  in  the  city?  A.  Yes,  sir,  any  hotel  in  the  city, 

jj  Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A.  I mean  that  all  of  the  hotels 

do  the  same  thing  that  are  in  business.  They  don’t  any  of  them  run 
any  business  more  strictly  than  we  do. 

Q.  That  is,  all  the  hotels  don’t  care  whether  guests  have  baggage 
or  not?  A.  To  a certain  extent.  Our  house  has  probably  a reputation 
for  guests  coming  there  without  baggage,  but  I think  you  can  go  to 
almost  any  hotel  without  baggage,  pay  for  your  room  and  get  a room. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  you  have  given  to  the  man,  who  wants  to  go 
to  a place  of  that  sort  with  a girl,  every  protection  that  you  can  think  of; 
you  have  a back  entrance  and  you  have  a cafe  here  and  you  can  get  to 
' the  cafe  and  from  the  cafe  go  upstairs;  you  have  given  him  every  pro- 
tection of  privacy,  haven’t  you?  A.  The  house  was  built  there  when  we 
took  it;  I don’t  know  about  giving  him  protection. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  if  you  should  put  an  advertisement  in  the 
newspaper  for  new  business,  you  would  say  that  the  Normandy  is  the 
best  place  for  a man  to  go,  because  he  can  go  there  and  a girl  can  get 
there  with  the  least  chance  of  being  seen;  now,  isn’t  that  the  kind  of  an 
advertisement  you  would  use,  if  you  were  frank  and  truthful  in  it?  A. 
I don’t  know  about  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Arena?  A.  Yes. 


536 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Where  is  the  Arena  situated?  A.  On  Michigan  avenue. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  there?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a house  is  the  Arena?  A.  I don’t  know;  I was 
never  there;  I have  seen  it  from  the  outside. 

Q.  Is  it  a competitor  of  yours?  A.  I don’t  know  anything  about 
the  house,  I tell  you.  It  might  be;  I don’t  know  what  it  is;  I never  was 
in  the  house,  don’t  know  who  owns  it  and  don’t  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  the  Normandy?  A.  About  four  years. 

Q.  During  that  four  years  has  the  Normandy  ever  been  closed  by  the 

police?  A.  I have  heard  that  it  was;  I wasn’t  there  at  the  time.  Mrs. 

Newbold  didn’t  own  it  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  it  closed  by  the  police?  A.  Probably  eight  or 
nine  years  ago;  I don’t  think  it  was  closed,  it  was  raided. 

Q.  During  the  four  years  that  you  have  been  there  has  the  Normandy 
ever  been  raided?  A.  No,  never. 

Q.  Why?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Have  other  houses  or  hotels,  or  assignation  houses,  been  raided? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  same  neighborhood,  some  of  them?  A.  No,  not  in  that 
neighborhood. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  clerk  there,  the  fellow  who  is  present 
when  the  names  are  signed  on  the  register?  A.  Olson. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  nam?  A.  I don’t  know,  he  is  on  the  next  floor. 

Q.  He  is  a fellow  of  ordinary  intelligence,  is  he?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  A pretty  bright  fellow?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Here  I see  signed  in  this  register  couples  from  South  Bend,  from 
Milwaukee,  Grand  Rapids,  New  Orleans,  Freeport,  Milwaukee,  St.  Louis,  Au- 
rora, Kansas  City,  St.  Louis,  New  York,  Indianapolis,  Streator,  Milwaukee, 
Buffalo,  Rockford,  New  York  City;  wouldn’t  you  think  that  an  ordinarily 
bright,  clever  fellow  would  wonder  why  so  many  men  and  women  were 
coming  so  far  away  from  home  without  any  baggage?  A.  No. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  would  strike  him  as  rather  peculiar?  A.  He 
is  there  to  take  them  in;  he  is  doing  his  duty,  that  is  all — that  is  what  he 
is  getting  paid  for. 

Q.  He  is  paid  to  stay  there  and  let  the  people  come  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  get  their  money  from  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  women  living  at  your  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Permanently  living  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  Well,  possibly  twenty  or  thirty. 

Q.  They  all  have  rooms?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  do?  A.  They  are  mostly  professional  people,  the- 
atrical people;  all  of  them  are  employed. 

Q.  Have  you  an3"  women  there  who  are  not  employed  at  the  present 
time?  A.  I would  not  allow  them  in  the  house. 

Q.  Are  women  permitted  to  receive  guests  in  their  rooms?  A.  Well, 
if  there  is  a party  of  three  or  four  or  six  get  up  there,  have  a little  what 
you  call  a visit,  why  we  don’t  mind  them;  outside  of  that  they  are  not 
allowed  to  have  visitors. 

Q.  Has  it  ever  been  reported  to  j'ou  by  any  bell  boj%  clerk  or  other 
attache  of  your  house  that  a man  was  in  a girl’s  room,  or  that  a girl  was  in 
a man’s  room?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I have  ordered  them  out. 

Q.  When  did  that  happen?  A.  I can’t  tell  you  how  long  ago;  I 
can’t  tell  you  when  it  was;  it  has  not  been  within  a year. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  a fight  around  your  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  secret  service  men.  private  detectives, 
around  your  place?  A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  anj"  man  go  to  one  of  3'our  rooms  and  insist  on 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


537 


a woman  coming  out?  A.  No,  not  that  I know  of.  It  might  happen  and 
I wouldn’t  know  it;  it  should  be  reported  to  me  if  it  did  happen. 

Q.  Has  your  hotel  ever  been  mentioned  in  any  divorce  actions  brought 
in  this  city?  A.  I couldn’t  say  as  to  that;  I don’t  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  It  never  has  been  called  to  your  attention?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  manage  the  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mrs.  Newbold  merely  owns  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  any  money  for  political  purposes?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  contribute  to  a political  campaign  fund?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Never  bought  tickets?  A.  Yes,  I have  bought  tickets. 

Q.  How  many  and  on  what  occasions  and  from  whom?  A.  From  the 
policemen  and  from  the  firemen. 

Q.  Anybody  else?  A.  No,  that  is  all. 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  the  law  to  be  concerning  couples  who 
are  received  by  hotels  without  baggage?  A.  To  come  right  down  to 
that,  I don’t  know.  I have  worked  in  different  hotels  and  I have  always 
taken  people  in,  respectable  looking  people.  If  they  wanted  a room  and 
would  pay  for  it,  they  are  entitled  to  a room  whether  they  have  baggage 
or  not. 

Q.  Anybody  who  comes  there  that  you  think  is  respectable  and  will- 
ing to  pay  can  get  a room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  doesn’t  make  any  difference  as  to  color?  A.  Do  you  mean  a col- 
ored person? 

Q.  Yes.  Would  you  receive  a colored  person?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  not  take  him  in  at  all?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  not  take  him  in  if  he  couldn’t  get  a bed  anywhere  else? 
A.  Never,  no. 

Q.  Does  the  law  require  you  to?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  would  violate  the  law  in  that  regard?  A.  Yes,  but  I don’t  sup- 
pose it  ever  happened  in  that  house.  I would  not  take  them  in.  I would  always 
find  an  excuse  if  it  was  necessary. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  a girl  scream  in  your  place  at  night?  A.  No,  not 
what  you  would  call  scream.  I have  heard  people  quarrel  and  fussing  a little 
bit. 

Q.  That  happens  frequently?  A.  Oh,  no. 

Q.  Once  in  a while?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Do  I understand  you  to  say,  to  the  best  of  your 
knowledge  and  belief,  that  never  any  man  brought  a woman  up  into  the  hotel 
that  you  knew  were  not  man  and  wife?  A.  That  I knew  were  not  married? 

Q.  Don’t  avoid  the  question ; did  you  ever  see  a man  come  to  your  place 
that  you  knew  had  a woman,  that  went  to  a room  all  night,  from  Chicago  here, 
that  you  knew  was  not  his  wife?  A.  Yes,  I guess  that  has  happened. 

Q.  How  often  has  it  happened?  A.  I don’t  know;  I don’t  just  remember 
how  often. 

Q.  How  would  you  do  in  that  case?  A.  If  he  would  register,  I would 
let  him  go  through  with  his  wife. 

Q.  If  you  knew  she  was  not  his  wife?  A.  I would  not  know. 

Q.  I asked  you  if  you  knew  any  man  in  Chicago  that  came  there  with  a 
woman  and  registered  as  man  and  wife  when  you  knew  it  was  not  his  wife? 
_A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  How  man}^  entrances  have  you  got  to  this  house?  A.  On  the  first 
floor? 

Q.  Yes,  from  the  sidewalk,  street  or  alley.  A.  There  is  an  entrance  from 
Wabash  avenue  into  the  hotel. 


538  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Go  ahead.  A.  And  there  is  an  entrance  into  the  cafe  from  Wabash 
avenue. 

Q.  Yes,  and  you  can  go  from  there  through  the  hall  to  the  elevator? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  there  is  a rear  entrance  into  the  same  hall,  and  from 
there  to  the  bar. 

Q.  Can  you  get  to  the  Fine  Arts  building  from  your  place?  A.  Right 
through  across  the  alley. 

Q.  You  therefore  have  got  four  entrances?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Let  me  repeat  my  first  question  again  and  tell  us  the  facts.  To  your 
knowledge  and  belief,  has  any  man  ever  secured  a room  in  your  house  with 
a woman  that  was  not  in  your  judgment  his  wife?  A.  I might  have  thought 
so  at  the  time. 

Q.  But  don’t  you  know  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  it?  A.  If  he  would  register  it  would  be  as  his  wife. 

Q.  Suppose  we  should  prove  that  somebody  had  done  that,  what  would  you 
think  then?  A.  I should  think  I was  fooled. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  you  are  making  a mistake  by  not  telling  us  and  coming 
out  and  letting  us  have  it,  because  we  will  find  out  anyhow;  we  are  bound 
to  get  it,  and  it  is  better  for  you,  because  we  want  to  know,  and  we  will 
know.  A.  I don’t  know  where  any  particular  man  has  done  it,  no. 

Q.  Can  any  man  come  there  and  secure  a room  in  your  house  with  a 
woman  without  any  baggage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  An  entire  stranger?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  No  matter  how  he  looks?  A.  I did  not  say  that.  He  probably  would 
not  get  a room  unless  he  looked  fairly  respectable. 

Q.  Do  you  try  to  get  the  money  in  advance?  A.  If  they  don’t  have 
baggage,  yes. 

Q.  It  looks  strange  to  me  that  with  the  reputation  that  we  have  had 
of  that  house  that  you  don’t  know  anything  about  it  and  others  do  on  the 
outside  of  your  house.  Now,  if  you  got  anything  to  say,  you  had  better  say  it 
now.  A.  I haven’t  anything  to  say. 

Q.  Nothing  further?  A.  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  has  become  of  Usner?  A.  He  is  in  the 
city  now  somewhere,  I don’t  whether  he  is  employed  or  not. 

Q.  What  is  he  doing  now?  A.  I don’t  know.  I see  him  once  a week 
or  so. 

Q.  He  used  to  own  the  Normandy  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : If  you  knew  that  a woman  was  not  a man’s  wife, 
as  they  came  there  to  register  you  would  still  take  his  word  for  it,  would  you? 
A.  No,  I would  not. 

Q.  That  is  what  I understood  you  to  say ; you  \yould  not  know  but  what 
he  was  married  the  daj'  before  and  let  it  go?  A.  \es,  sir,  or  the  same  day. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Is  Mrs.  Newbold  any  relative  of  Usner?  A. 
She  is  his  mother. 

Fred  H.  Hardin’s  Testimony. 

FRED  H.  HARDIN  (colored),  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows; 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  0’H.\RA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  F.  H.  is  my  initials. 
Q.  Yes,  but  we  want  your  name  in  full.  A.  I would  rather  not  give  it. 
Q.  Why  would  you  rather  not  give  it?  A.  I notice  that  in  the  newspapers 
they  are  not  giving  their  names. 

Q.  Those  are  the  girls.  A.  Is  it  absolutely  necessary? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Fred  Hardin. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


539 


Q.  What  do  you  do,  Fred?  A.  Bell  man. 

Q.  Where?  A.  At  the  Normandy  hotel. 

Q.  That  is  the  hotel  of  which  Mr.  McHenry  is  manager?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?  A.  Well,  about  five  or  six  years. 

Q.  What  time  do  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning?  A.  I go  to  work 
7 :30  one  morning  and  12  o’clock  the  next  morning. 

Q.  How  many  bell  boys  have  they  got  there?  A.  Three  on  each  watch, 
six  altogether. 

Q.  You  have  taken  a good  many  people  up  to  rooms  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
[ Q.  You  take  them  from  the  first  floor  up  to  the  rooms  on  the  other 
[ floors?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

, Q.  Do  any  of  these  people  have  baggage  with  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often?  A.  Well,  frequently;  most  of  them. 

Q.  How  much  money  are  you  being  paid  there,  Fred?  A.  Twenty  dollars 
a month. 

Q.  Do  you  get  any  tips?  A.  Occasionally. 

I Q.  You  get  some  big  tips  once  in  a while?  A.  Not  what  you  call  big 
I tips. 

Q.  Is  it  a pretty  good  job?  A.  Fair. 

Q.  You  wouldn’t  want  to  lose  that  job?  A.  Not  for  the  sake  of  keeping 
the  present  one,  but  for  the  fact  that  it  is  hard  to  get  another  one. 

Q.  Now,  tell  us  what  do  you  think  about  those  couples  going  up  there; 

I are  they  married  or  not?  A.  So  far  as  I know. 

1 Q.  What  do  you  think  about  it?  A.  I have  no  opinion  about  the  matter; 

it  is  in  the  discharge  of  my  duty  to  take  care  of  and  room  such  people  as  I am 
instructed  to  room. 

Q.  I want  you  to  tell  this  committee  the  truth ; how  many  times  have  you 
seen  a man  go  up  with  different  girls  into  this  hotel?  A.  What  do  you  mean 
by  that? 

Q.  I mean  this ; do  you  know  of  any  man  who  might  be  there  Monday  with 
one  girl  and  two  or  three  days  later  with  another  girl  and  a few  days  later 

with  another  girl,  not  a regular  patron,  but  making  it  a practice  to  bring  differ- 

I ent  women  in  there?  A.  Well — 

Q.  I want  you  to  tell  the  truth.  A.  I am  telling  you  the  truth ; I haven’t 
paid  any  attention  to  anybody. 

n Q.  You  could  not  say  that  any  man  ever  did  that?  A.  No,  I could  not 
j say  that. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  girl  come  in  there  with  different  fellows  and 
go  up  in  your  elevator?  A.  Not  that  I remember  of. 

Q.  You  have  got  a pretty  good  memory?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Just  how  far,  to  what  extent  is  your  memory  regulated  by  that  job  of 
[ yours?  A.  My  memory  hasn’t  anything  to  do  with  the  job  so  far  as  this  is 
concerned. 

Q.  Do  you  know  some  of  the  men  and  women  who  come  to  that  place 
well  enough  to  nod  to  them,  and  some  of  them  call  you  “Fred,”  some  of  them 
know  you  and  speak  to  you?  A.  Yes,  there  are  a few  men  that  come  there 
that  speak  to  me. 

Q.  Some  that  you  know?  A.  Yes,  but  not  personally. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  of  those  men  come  in  with  different  girls?  A. 
No. 

Q.  You  know  you  are  under  oath?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Yet  you  made  the  statement  that  you  never  have  seen  a man  come  there 
with  different  girls?  A.  I said  not  that  I remember,  men  that  I know. 

Q.  I want  you  to  exercise  that  memory,  get  right  down  and  tell  me 
yes  or  no  whether  you  have  ever  seen  a man  come  in  there  at  different 
times  with  different  girls.  A.  Well,  I can’t  recall  any  occasion. 

Q.  Yes  or  no?  A.  (No  answer). 

Q.  And  the  same  as  regards  the  girls?  A.  (No  answer). 


540  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Did  you  work  last  year  in  that  hotel?  A.  Last  year,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  work  last  night  in  that  hotel?  A.  Last  night,  yes,  I did. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  what  the  consequences  would  he  if  it 
was  proven  that  you  have  perjured  yourself  today?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  know  better  than  that;  you  know  just  as  well  as  you 
know  that  you  are  sitting  here  that  you  are  not  telling  the  truth,  don’t  you? 
A.  So  far  as  I have  stated  I have  told  the  truth. 

Q.  You  know  that  men  had  brought  women  up  there,  men  from  Chicago, 
men  that  you  know  were  single  men  brought  their  women  up  in  this  room,  that 
were  not  their  wives,  you  know  that?  A.  No,  such  people  as  patronize  the 
place,  I don’t  know  them  well  enough  to  know  anything  about  their  family. 

Q.  How  long  would  they  stay  up  there;  did  you  ever  see  a man  go  up  and 
come  down  in  an  hour  or  two,  or  three  hours?  A.  I don’t  see  them  come  up. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  of  them  come  down?  A.  No,  I don’t  mean  to 
say  I have  seen  people  come  down,  because  the  elevator  is  enclosed,  and 
people  that  come  down,  I don’t  see  them. 

Q.  You  see  them  going  up?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  But  you  never  see  them  come  down?  A.  No,  because  whenever  they 
come  down  they  come  down  on  the  elevator. 

Q.  Don’t  they  go  up  on  the  elevator?  A.  Sure,  but  the  elevator  is  en- 
closed, and  I am  on  the  first  floor  and  I can’t  see  who  goes  down. 

Q.  Do  you  serve  drinks  in  the  room  to  them?  A.  Occasionally. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  them  talk  in  there?  A.  They  talk  about  things 
that  didn’t  concern  me. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  carry  any  baggage  up  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  never  heard  any  remarks  of  any  kind?  A.  No,  nothing 
to  cause  me  to  suspect  that  they  were  not  man  and  wife,  if  that’s  what 
you  mean. 

Q.  All  married  people  that  go  up  there?  A.  So  far  as  I know. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  What  is  your  belief  about  it?  A.  About  what? 

Q.  About  their  being  man  and  wife;  you  know  as  far  as  you  know  they 
are  man  and  wife,  but  what  do  you  believe  about  it?  A.  I don’t  suppose  my 
belief  amounts  to  anything. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  what  I want  to  know.  A.  In  case  a couple  comes  in  and 
registers  as  man  and  wife,  I have  no  reason  to  disbelieve  they  are  not. 

Q.  So  you  think  that  everybody  who  goes  there  and  registers  as  man  and 
wife  are  man  and  wife?  A.  I don’t  know. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Young  man,  you  better  just  tell  us;  come  out  with  it. 

THE  WITNESS:  I have  no  reason  to  believe  anything  but  what  they  arc 
as  they  registered. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA ; Oh,  this  boy  wants  to  keep  his  job.  You  can’t  get 
anything  from  him.  That  is  all. 

Mrs.  W C ’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  W C , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 

first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  C . 

Q.  And  your  residence?  A.  Normandy  Hotel. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Theatrical  business. 

Q.  What  doing?  A.  Skate  dancing. 

Q.  Where  are  you  performing  now?  A.  At  the  American  Music  Hall, 
with  the  Gertrude  Hoffman  company. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


541 


Q.  What  do  you  say  you  do  with  that  company?  Roller  skate  dancing, 
my  husband  and  myself. 

Q.  Is  your  husband  here  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  quarters  at  the  Normandy,  you  and  your  husband?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

, Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?  A.  About  two  weeks  last  Friday, 
before  that  we  were  living  at  the  Dejonghe. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  that  hotel?  A.  Oh,  it  is  all  right. 

MR.  SCOUTEN ; Here  is  the  husband  (escorting  in  Mr.  C ). 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Is  it  a good  hotel?  A.  Surely. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a good  hotel?  A.  Why,  one  where  we  get  good 
service  and  get  what  we  want. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  general  reputation  of  the  Normandy  Hotel?  A.  Yes. 
, Q.  Have  you  seen  anything  there  that  leads  you  to  believe  that  it  earns 
its  reputation?  A.  No,  it  is  a very  quiet  hotel. 


Mr.  C ’s  Testimony. 

^ Mr.  C , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first  duly 

Isworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 


, „ CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  C . 

'5  Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Skating. 

Iji  ^ Q-  Where  do  you  live?  A.  At  the  Normandy. 

I Q.  Is  this  woman  your  wife?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  How  long  have  you  been  married?  A.  Since  1907. 

MRS.  C — ; Would  you  like  to  see  the  license?  (Producing  license 

and  handing  the  same  to  Gov.  O’Hara.) 

1 Q.  How  old  are  y-ou?  A.  Twenty,  I will  be  twenty-one  in  June, 

ill  Q.  How  do  you  happen  to  have  this  marriage  license  with  you?  A.  I 

always  carry  it  with  me  in  a place  like  this. 

THE  CHAIRMAN : It’s  a good  thing  to  have  with  you  when  you  are 
stopping  at  the  Normandy.  I am  willing  to  give  these  people  a clean  bill  of 
health. 

j|  SENATOR  BEALL  (to  Mr.  C ) ; You  are  a man;  what  do  you 

jjthink  about  the  Normandy  Hotel?  A.  As  far  as  I know,  if  there  is  anything 

done  there  at  all  it  is  done  in  a quiet  manner. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  floor  are  you  on?  A.  The  fifth. 

' Q.  What  is  your  room  ? A.  523. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  theatrical  people  living  at  the  hotel?  A.  They 
are  all  on  the  top  floor. 

■ Q.  All  on  the  fifth  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  on  the  fourth  floor?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  never  stop  off  at  any  of  the  other  floors?  A.  No,  sir. 
ij  Q.  Has  it  ever  come  to  your  knowledge  that  at  the  Normandy,  under  the 
present  system,  the  top  floor  and  the  fourth  floor  are  rented  to  theatrical  people 
who  are  legitimately  living  there  during  the  time  they  are  in  Chicago,  and  that 
the  second  and  third  floors  are  used  for  transients?  A.  I don’t  know  anything 
.about  the  third  floor,  but  I have  heard  that  they  generally  put  theatrical  people 
jOn  the  fiftli  floor. 

Q.  Generally  that  floor  is  reserved  for  theatrical  people?  A.  That  is  what 
d have  heard  them  say. 

' Q.  Let  me  ask  you  if  this  is  a quiet  place,  why  did  you  report,  if  you  did 
.report,  the  people  next  door  as  being  too  noisy?  A.  It  happened  at  night  I 
would  not  call  the  hotel  a noisy  hotel  if  it  happened  to  be  noisy  one  night.  It 
was  stopped;  I asked  them  to  have  it  stopped  and  the  boys  stopped  it. 

Q.  What  were  they  doing  that  caused  you  to  make  this  complaint?  A. 


542 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Laughing  and  dancing  around  about  4 or  5 o’clock  in  the  morning  in  room 
522.  In  other  words,  they  were  having  a gay  party. 

Q.  What  night  was  that?  A.  Friday,  I think ; Wednesday  night  or  Friday 
night. 

A L ’s  Testimony. 

A L , called  as  a witness  efore  the  Committee,  being  first 

duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows; 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  A L ■. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  At  the  Normandy. 

Q How  long  have  you  been  living  there?  A.  Four  weeks. 

Q.  What  is  your  room  number?  A.  529. 

Q.  Are  you  married?  A.  No;  single. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  With  the  Hoffman  show. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Sixteen. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  in  that  show'?  A.  Dance. 

Q.  Do  you  sing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  sing?  A.  Everything  they  tell  me  to. 

Q.  They  are  the  judges  of  what  you  shall  dance  and  what  you  shall  sing? 
A.  Yes,  .'^ir. 

5E.NATOR  BEALL:  You  say  you  are  on  the  fifth  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  What  is  that  house,  a quiet  house?  A.  I don’t  know  anything  about 
the  house  at  all;  I just  stay'  in  my  room  in  the  hotel. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anybody  in  the  house?  I know  just  the  whole  com- 

pany; part  of  the  company  is  upon  the  top  floor,  that  is  all  I know.  I don’t 
know'  anything  about  the  rooms  below  there. 

Q.  The  theatrical  people  are  on  the  fifth  floor?  A.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  know  nothing  at  all  about  what  is  going  on  below?  A.  No. 

E : J ’s  Testimony. 

E — - — — J , called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 

duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  E J . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Eighteen. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  Normandy  Hotel. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there?  Three  weeks,  this  is  the  fourth 

week. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  with  this  organization?  A.  Seven  months. 
Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  business?  I have  dteen  here  since 

.A.ugust;  this  is  my  first  time  in  the  show;  I was  away  the  last  year. 

Q.  How  long  have  y'ou  been  out  with  the  show?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  before  that?  A.  I didn’t  do  anything. 

Q.  Did  you  live  with  your  people?  A.  With  my  people  entirely,  in  New 
York. 

Q.  Are  your  father  and  mother  both  living?  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  go  into  the  show  business?  A.  Well,  I had  to 
do  something,  and  all  I could  do  was  to  dance.  I never  v orked  at  anything  else. 

Q.  How  much  money  are  you  making  now?  Twenty-two  dollars  a 

week. 

Q.  WHiat  does  it  cost  you  to  live?  About  $12.00.  I send  home  SIO.OO 
a week  to  my  mother,  every  week. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  have  to  pay  for  a room  at  the  Normandy? 
Three  of  us  girls  room  together  and  we  pay  $4.00  each. 

Q.  Who  selected  the  Normandy  Hotel  as  a place  of  residence  for  you?  A- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


543 


Well,  there  is  an  advance  agent  who  goes  around  before  we  go  into  a town,  and 
they  put  down  the  call,  at  what  hotel  it  is  and  the  rates,  and  we  go  to  the  place ; 
it  was  quite  reasonable,  so  we  went  there. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  you  generally  follow  the  advice  of  these  advance 
men?  A.  Why,  naturally,  we  don’t  know  where  to  go  in  a strange  place. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  general  reputation  of  the  Normandy? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  it  looked  upon  by  members  of  your  profession?  A.  I don’t 
know,  I haven’t  asked  anybody.  The  whole  top  floor  of  that  hotel  is  people 
from  our  show ; there  are  about  fifty  of  them. 

Q.  You  have  the  entire  top  floor?  A.  We  have  the  entire  top  floor, 
nobody  else  but  from  our  show  on  that  top  floor. 

Q.  Are  you  permitted  to  go  in  one  another’s  rooms  at  night?  A.  Oh,  in 
the  different  girls’  rooms,  yes. 

Q.  The  men  are  not  permitted  to  come  in  and  join  those  parties?  A.  If 
they  wanted  to,  they  could. 

Q.  They  could  if  they  wanted  to?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  on  that  floor  to  keep  order?  A.  No. 

Q.  They  can  do  about  as  they  please  on  that, floor?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  it  is  up  to  your  own  judgment  and  discretion  and  will  power  as 
to  what  you  shall  do?  A.  There  are  no  call-boys  or  anybody  else  unless 
you  ring  for  them;  there  is  nobody  up  there  to  stop  us  from  going  any 
place. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Well,  I want  to  say  to  you  that  you  have  made 
a splendid  impression  on  me.  I believe  you  are  a good  girl,  but  I don’t  think 
it  is  right  that  a good  girl  of  your  age  should  be  stopping  at  a hotel  like  the 
Normandy  on  a floor  where  there  is  absolutely  as  you  say  no  protection  given 
you  except  the  protection  of  your  own  senses  of  right  and  wrong  and  your  own 
will  power.  I don’t  think  it  is  right. 

Testimony  of  John  W and  Marie  H . 

JOHN  W and  MARIE  H , called  as  witnesses  before  the 

Committee,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  were  examined  and  testified 
as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  W . 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  , Theatrical  business. 

Q.  With  what  company?  A.  Gertrude  Hoffman  company. 

Q.  Where  are  you  living  now?  A.  Normandy  Hotel. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  there?  A.  Since  they  came  here  three 
weeks  ago. 

Q.  Do  you  have  a room  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  a room  alone  or  do  you  share  it  with  someone?  A.  I have 
a room  with  Mr.  L . 

Q.  What  is  his  business?  A.  Chorus  master. 

Q.  What  room  were  you  in  at  the  time  you  were  served  with  sub- 
poenaes  to  appear  before  this  Committee?  A.  I was  not  served  with 
a subpoena,  he  just  asked  me  to  come.  I was  in  my  own  room. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  have  any  parties  on  the  fifth  floor  of  the  Normandy?  A. 
Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  _ Who  was  the  girl  that  you  put  your  arms  around  and  begged  her  not 
to  cry  in  her  room  when  these  papers  were  served?  A.  G S . 

Q.  Who  is  she?  A.  A chorus  girl. 

Q.  You  put  your  arms  around  her?  A.  Sure. 

Q.  Do  you  usually  do  that?  A.  No,  she  is  a sick  girl;  she  was  hysterical 
and  nervous ; anybody  else  would  do  it  under  the  same  conditions. 

Q.  On  the  fifth  floor  of  this  hotel  there  is  no  supervision,  nobody  to  pre- 


544  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


vent  anyone  from  doing  whatever  he  wills,  is  that  true?  A.  I don’t  know,  we 
don’t  do  anything  that  we  should  not  be  doing. 

Q.  But  there  is  nobody  to  stop  you  if  you  wanted  to?  A.  Xot  that  I 
know  of. 

Q (to  the  woman)  ; What  is  your  name?  A.  Marie  H . 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  Chorus. 

Q.  What  chorus?  A.  Gertrude  Hoffman. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live  now?  A.  The  Stratford  Hotel. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  be  down  at  the  Normandy?  A.  I came  there 
to  call  this  morning,  and  I had  been  in  the  hotel  about  fifteen  minutes  when  this 
happened. 

Q.  Who  were  you  visiting  in  this  hotel?  A.  I visited  the  whole  bunch  on 

that  floor.  I called  on  Mr.  and  Mrs.  C , and  w'e  went  up  on  the  roof 

and  had  our  pictures  taken,  and  then  we  w'ent  into  Mr.  R ’s  room, 

and  then  from  there  in  Mr.  R ’s,  and  then  to  Mr.  S ’s  room. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  in  getting  into  these  rooms?  A.  No,  be- 
cause the  doors  were  open ; they  were  sitting  there,  and  this  gentleman  came  and 
started  to  read  this  paper  to  me.  I thought  he  was  fooling  me  and  I laughed 
at  him. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  we  are  trying  to  find  out  is  the  condition  of 
the  Normandy  Hotel.  What  do  you  think  about  it? 

MISS  H : All  of  our  people  are  on  the  fifth  floor. 

Ed.  Field’s  Testimony. 

ED.  FIELD,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

(WILLIAM  SHEMBERG  also  called  to  the  stand.) 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edward  Field. 

Q.  What  do  you  do,  Mr.  Field?  A.  I am  bartender. 

Q.  Where?  A.  At  Shemberg’s  place. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  any  proprietors  of  dance  halls?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  you  acquainted  with  the  proprietor  at  Roti’s?  A.  I go  by 
there  every  night. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  proprietor  of  that  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Roti. 

Q.  You  never  had  any  quarrel  with  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  Tell  this  Committee  what  you  know  about  that  place.  A.  I 
often  go  by  at  that  place  when  I leave  the  saloon;  I go  up  there  for  ten 
or  fifteen  minutes  to  see  about  minors  up  there. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  minors,  bovs  and  girls  under  age?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  How  young?  A.  Fifteen  or  sixteen. 

Q.  What  do  you  see  them  do?  A.  Dance  and  drink. 

Q.  Dance  indecently?  A.  I don’t  know;  I didn’t  stay  there  long 
enough.  I know  they  run  a tough  dance  there. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  a tough  dance?  A.  dance  that  they 
don’t  leave  go  in  a dance  hall.  The}'  claim  that  a bear  dance  is  a tough 
dance. 

Q.  What  is  a bear  dance?  A.  I don’t  know;  I don’t  dance  it. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  you  know  anything  about  that  house?  A. 
Mr.  Shemberg  said  he  had  protection  up  there  and  paid  for  it.  (To  Mr. 
Shemberg):  Is  this  the  place  vou  alluded  to  this  morning  under  oath? 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  Yes. 

SENATOR  BEALL  (To  Mr.  Shemberg):  What  did  you  tell  us  this 
morning?  Repeat  it  again. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


545 


MR.  SHEMBERG:  The  man  who  wa’s  working  for  him  before  was 
discharged,  or  left,  I don’t  know  which,  and  he  came  up  to  my  property 
six  months  after  he  was  let  go,  more  or  less,  I don’t  know  exactly,  and 
he  was  telling  that  they  were  paying  $5.00  for  each  dance  to  the  Juvenile 
Officers. 

SENATOR  BEALL  (To  Mr.  Field):  Do  you  know  anything  about 
this? 

MR.  FIELD:  I was  there  the  day  it  was  told. 

Q.  You  heard  it  told?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

M Q.  You  don’t  know  it  to  be  a fact,  only  what  was  told  you?  A. 
[Only  what  the  man  said. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  the  man  is?  A.  (By  Mr.  Shemberg):  I 
could  not  say  where  he  is. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  This  is  from  third  hands;  we  would  not  do 
anything  with  this. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  seem  to  know  something;  there  is  one 
thing  that  you  seem  to  have  some  direct  knowledge  of:  you  have  dropped 
into  his  dance  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir.  At  1 o’clock  at  night  when  we  close 
up  I go  by  there;  when  we  close  up  the  saloon  at  night  I go  by  there. 

Q.  You  dropped  in  about  1 o’clock,  or  such  a matter,  when  you  got 
through  with  your  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  in  there  last  week?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  week  before  last?  A.  No.  About  two  months  ago  I was  up 
there. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there  that  time?  A.  I only  stayed  there 
about  ten  or  fifteen  minutes. 

Q.  How  did  you  happen  to  drop  in?  A.  I always  go  by  there 
Saturday  nights  when  there  is  anything  there. 

* Q.  You  say  you  go  by  there  Saturday  nights,  yet  you  haven’t  been 
there  for  two  months?  A.  They  haven’t  had  any  dances.  They  rent  the 
hall  out. 

Q.  You  stopped  ten  or  fifteen  minutes  and  looked  around?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  fighting  up  there?  A.  No. 

* Q.  Did  you  see  any  men  or  boys  unduly  embracing  any  of  the  girls? 
A.  No. 

Q.  But  you  did  see  them  dance?  A.  Yes. 

?;■  Q-  What  were  they  dancing?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Were  the  girls  hugging  the  fellows  and  the  fellows  hugging  the 
i^girls  indecently  in  that  dance?  A.  No,  sir;  not  that  I seen. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  saw  girls  drinking  there,  did  you?  A. 

|Yes. 

I Q.  How  old  were  they?  A.  They  were  under  age;  they  looked  that 
way,  anyway. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Shemberg  made  the  accusation  this  morn- 
ing that  they  had  an  officer  there,  paid  for  watching  this  place. 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  Roti  pays,  $5.00  to  the  Juvenile  Association 
Society,  and  they  put  a man  in  there  to  protect  his  place. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  a part  of  their  system.  But  you 
said  this  morning  that  the  officer  put  in  there  by  the  Juvenile  Society 
didn’t  pay  attention  to  business,  but  went  to  sleep;  and,  as  a result,  the 
hall  has  acquired  a bad  reputation.  You  were  to  bring  witnesses  to  verify 
this  charge;  you  haven’t  done  so  as  yet. 

, I SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Yes,  and  he  says  they  sold  liquor  to  minors. 

I I MR.  SHEMBERG:  Fifty  per  cent  are  minors. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  visited  other  dance  halls? 

I MR.  FIELD:  That  is  the  only  one  I have  seen;  I have  worked  in 
dance  halls,  but  that  is  years  ago. 


546  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Is  that  dance  hall,  in  your  best  judgment,  as  bad  as  any  dance 
hall  you  were  ever  in?  A.  Sure,  it  is. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Do  they  sell  liquors  to  minors?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Girls  and  boys?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  saw  them  drink  there,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

MR.  SHEMBERG:  See  any  of  the  police  officers  from  the  Wesi 
Chicago  Avenue  Station,  who  were  there  with  that  Juvenile  Officer,  anc 
they  will  testify  that  the  hall  was  not  run  right,  and  never  was,  but  the\ 
don’t  want  to  go  over  the  Juvenile  Officer’s  head,  or  the  Chicago  Com- 
mons, and  make  complaints. 

R.  B.  Phelps’  Testimony. 

R.  B.  PHELPS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  firsi 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  R.  B.  Phelps. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Well,  I am  running  a dancine 
academy  on  the  West  Side,  and  I am  also  in  the  cigar  business. 

Q.  What  dancing  academy  do  you  run?  A.  The  Vermont  Hall. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  Aladison  and  Sangamon. 

Q.  Do  you  own  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Lease  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  business  are  they  in?  A.  Well,  they  leased  the  whok 
business,  and  they  also  run  a saloon  on  the  corner. 

Q.  You  lease  from  people  who  run  the  saloon?  A.  Yes.  I hav£ 
got  a part  of  it;  there  is  two  of  us  running  it. 

Q.  You  run  the  dances  yourself,  do  you,  or  rent  the  hall  out  tc 
different  societies?  A.  No,  we  just  lease  certain  nights;  there  is  some 
nights  we  don’t  take;  we  have  it  let  out  to  some  organizations  like  the 
K.  P.’s. 

Q.  What  nights  do  you  take?  A.  Wednesday,  Saturda3q  Sunday 
and  all  holiday  nights. 

Q.  I ask  you  if,  in  j^our  opinion,  it  is  not  a prettj-  bad  place?  A 
No,  sir;  it  is  not.  ’ ’ 

Q.  The  best  dance  hall  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  I won’t  say  a; 
to  that,  but  I know  it  is  properly  conducted. 

Q.  Where  is  this  A^ermont  Dance  Hall,  on  what  floor?  A.  On  the 
third  floor. 

Q.  What  is  on  the  second  floor?  A.  Doctors’  offices  and  billiarc 
room. 

Q.  How  many  doctors’  offices?  A.  Five  or  six. 

Q.  Back  or  front?  A.  Reaching  along  on  Sangamon  Street,  reach 
ing  from  Madison  back  nearly  to  the  alley. 

Q.  On  the  first  floor  what  have  you?  A.  Four  stores  and  the  saloon 

Q.  It  is  possible,  is  it,  without  going  out  of  the  doors,  to  get  fron 
the  dance  hall  into  the  saloon?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  It  is  possible  for  a man  to  go  down  there  and  drink  betweer 
dances?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  That  is  done?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  It  is  possible  for  a man  to  take  his  lad.v  partner  down  with  him 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Between  dances?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Drinks  are  served  sometimes  on  the  second  floor  as  well?  A 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  ladies  go  down  on  the  second  floor?  A.  No,  sir;  the’ 
have,  but  not  in  the  last  two  years. 


PbBLic  Meetings  and  Testimony 


547 


Q.  Did  they  Saturday  night?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  no  drinks  served  on  the  second  floor  Saturday  night? 
A.  I can’t  say  as  to  that.  Now,  we  make  it  a rule  we  have,  that  every 
night  either  my  partner  or  I are  on  the  floor.  There  is  a time  like  when 
a lady  friend  of  mine,  she  comes  down  there  probably  once  a week,  why, 
probably  twice  in  the  evening  I would  buy  her  a drink,  and  it  has  got  to 
be  sent  from  downstairs  to  the  billiard  room,  and  we  have  it  there,  that 
is  all.  We  don’t  stand  there  all  night  long,  because  it  don’t  look  proper. 

Q.  You  have  a toilet  for  the  ladies?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a toilet  for  the  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  women  ever  permitted  to  enter  the  toilet  reserved  for  gentle- 
men? A.  No,  sir;  the  gentlemen’s  toilet  is  on  the  second  floor,  and  the 
ladies’  toilet  is  on  the  third  floor,  off  from  the  ladies’  waiting  room  or 
dressing  room;  there  is  no  way  for  a man  to  get  near  it. 

Q.  Then  you  have  ample  precautions  in  that  direction?  A.  Oh,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  anyone  in  the  Vermont  Dance  Hall,  as  long 
as  you  have  been  connected  with  it,  intoxicated?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  anyone  almost  intoxicated?  A.  No,  sir;  we 

won’t  allow  them  in;  that  is  the  reason  I stay  there  on  the  door,  my  part- 
ner or  I.  We  alternate  every  night;  we  stay  there  for  that  reason,  also 
to  keep  young  girls  out.  ’ 

Q.  Do  you  operate  this  hall  under  a special  bar  permit?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Drinks  are  served  by  the  saloon?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  got 

nothing  to  do  with  liquor. 

Q.  Do  most  of  the  people  go  to  the  saloon  there  to  take  drink  be- 
tween dances?  A.  No,  I should  judge  25  per  cent,  maybe  33  1-3  per  cent. 
We  cater  to  a class  of  young  men  not  able  to  buy  many  drinks.  On 
Wednesday  night  drinking  is  so  light  there  is  hardly  any  drinks  sold; 
hardly  any  drinks  are  sold  in  the  place.  Saturday  nights,  then  the  j'^oung 
fellows  are  probably  a little  more  flushed  than  other  nights,  and  they  will 

go  probably  four  or  five  times  a night.  There  might  be  a few  go  down 

four  or  five  times  on  Wednesday  nights,  but  on  Saturday  night  I will 
admit  they  will  go  down  probably  five  or  six  times.  But  on  Wednesday 
night,  or  during  the  week,  there  is  very  little  of  it  done. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  of  the  advisability  of  a dance  hall  running 
in  connection  with  a saloon?  A.  Well,  I think  if  they  are  properly  con- 
ducted like  ours,  I think  they  are  all  right. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  any  young  woman  is  perfectly 
safe  at  the  dances  in  your  hall?  A.  I think  they  are  just  as  safe  as  at 
any  other  public  place  in  the  City  of  Chicago  where  there  is  a dance  hall 
without  liquor  or  a public  show  or  cafe;  I think  she  is  just  as  safe  there, 
or  safer,  because  we  have  men  on  the  floor  for  that  purpose,  and  we  will 
not  let  any  man  even  sitting  around  the  hall  to  put  his  arm  around  her, 
not  even  to  rest  his  arm  on  the  back  of  her  chair;  and  nights  with  big 
crowds  we  have  men  gather  in  where  they  are  crowded  for  fear  there 
might  be  gruff  talk  that  it  is  not  fit  for  the  place  that  we  run. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  it  said  that  the  dance  halls  contribute  50  per 
cent  of  the  girls  to  the  undefworld?  A.  I have  heard  it  said,  but  I know 
it  is  not  true. 

O.  How  do  you  know  it?  A.  I have  been  in  business  fifteen  years 
and  I have  seen  a good  deal. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  the  dance  hall  contributes  anything  to  white 
slavery?  A.  I would  not  say  that,  but  it  is  nothing  like  you  read  about. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  makes  girls  fall?  A.  There  is  various  rea- 
sons, many  reasons. 

Q.  What  are  they?  A.  I would  say  the  chief  reasons  are  their 
nassions;  another  reason  is  poverty;  another  reason  some  girls  are  too 
lazy  to  work.  I know  more  girls  that  have  gone  into  it  that  made  more 
than  $10.00  a week  that  have  gone  into  a life  of  that  kind  than  made  under; 
I think  there  is  attributed  to  it,  to  the  fact  that  they  are  too  lazy  to  work; 
the_y_  like  nice  clothes  and  they  are  too  lazy  to  get  out  and  get  them  in 
legitimate  ways. 


548  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  much  is  your  dance  hall  making  a year?  A.  Well,  I don’t 
know;  I make  a good  living,  that  is  all.  It  was  a good  business  years 
ago,  probably  eight  or  ten  years  ago.  It  is  not  what  it  was  then,  'there 
is  quite  a little  bit  of  competition. 

Q.  Competition  is  hard  on  the  business?  A.  Yes,  you  see  up  to 
ten  years  ago  the  dance  halls  were  leased  with  bar  permits,  and  were  run, 
say,  by  organizations  composed  of  four  or  live  or  six  members.  When 
we  started  to  run  along  the  lines  we  run  it,  we  didn’t  have  much  competi- 
tion, only  through  these  special  bar  affairs.  But  of  late  years  there  is  not 
so  much  of  that.  There  has  been  laws  enacted  to  kind  of  restrict  the 
general  public  from  getting  together,  unless  it  be  that  they  might  have  a 
little  inhuence  to  get  a bar  permit,  and  the  result  is,  there  is  a loss  on 
those  kind  of  affairs.  Every  year  there  is  another  hall  goes  up  running 
along  on  the  same  lines  that  ours  is  run,  so  there  is  not  as  much  money 
in  it  as  there  used  to  be. 

Q.  You  don’t  believe  in  the  special  bar  permit  system?  A.  Xo,  be- 
cause it  is  not  handled  right;  because  they  allow  them  to  drink  too  much. 

You  know  in  the  City  of  Chicago  there  is  a great  many  girls;  their 

parents  are  considered  as  foreigners,  they  are  of  foreign  birth,  or  it  is  not 
necessary  that  they  are  foreigners  within  one  or  two  generations;  and 
they  are,  as  a rule,  taught  to  drink  beer  from  the  time  that  they  are  eight 
or  ten  years  old;  and  while  they  come  of  good  families,  they  are  restricted, 
and  at  the  same  time  they  like  a glass  of  beer.  You  know  the  American 
girl  of  today,  of  the  better  families,  she  is  a worse  girl  to  get  along  with 
than  some  of  these  poorer  girls;  1 don’t  say  poverty-stricken  girls.  The 
American  girl,  she  likes  her  fine  drinks,  that  fancy'  stuff.  You  take  girls 

like  I used  to  run  into,  they  like  to  go  and  have  a dance  and  maybe  a 

glass  of  beer;  and  when  she  gets  out,  or  through  dancing,  or  the  exercise 
that  she  gets,  she  is  comparatively  sober,  and  there  is  no  trace  of  drink 
in  her.  We  have  experimented  with  different  lines,  and  I found  out  that 
it  is  best  if  they  are  restricted;  that  the  minute  they'  get  to  feeling  good 
to  stop  right  there,  why,  then,  it  is  all  right;  but  there  is  very  few,  1 
suppose,  that  will  do  that.  Those  places  are  very  injurious  to  places  like 
ours,  because  they  consider  our  place  the  same  as  the  hall  that  gets  a 
special  bar  permit  and  runs  unrestricted  until  3 or  4 o’clock  in  the  morn- 
ing. We  run  until  1 o’clock,  and  there  is  nothing  doing  after  1 o’clock 
for  nobody. 

Q.  Your  hall  is  above  the  saloon?  A.  On  the  third  floor.  In  the 
majority  of  halls  there  is  a saloon  down  on  the  first  floor.  The  hall  is  on 
the  second  or  third  floor,  and  there  is  a barroom  off  of  that;  that  is  what 
I call  the  old-style  turner  halls.  The  old-style  halls  were  generally  halls 
that  were  built  on  those  lines,  and  generally  there  is  a saloon  on  the  first 
floor. 

Q.  Are  there  any  assignation  houses  in  your  neighborhood?  A.  Xot 
now. 

Q.  All  cleaned  up?  A.  Yes,  sir.  We  were  in  a very  bad  district 
when  we  started  that  hall  ten  years  ago;  we  had  the  time  of  our  life  to 
get  people  down  there.  We  never  would  cater  to  the  resident  district  of 
the  assignation  kind;  we  had  a great  deal  of  trouble  along  that  line,  but 
after  people  found  out  what  kind  of  a hall  we  were  running,  we  haven’t 
had  so  much  trouble.  After  they  were  driven  out  of  there  it  was  so  much 
nicer  for  us,  and  we  had  less  trouble  in  getting  people  to  get  down  there, 
but  we  would  never  let  men  or  women  around  there  get  in  if  we  knew  it, 
but  they  would  get  in  occasionally',  and  we  would  promptly  tell  them  that 
we  did  not  care  for  them  to  come  any  more. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Were  you  in  what  is  called  the  red-light  dis- 
trict, the  levee  district?  A.  Yes,  it  is  near  there;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  that  it  is  cleaned  up  all  around  there?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
am  satisfied  it  is  on  the  W est  Side. 

Q.  There  is  not  much  there  to  what  it  was  formerly?  A.  Yes.  it 
has  been  a good  thing  for  our  hall. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  don’t  allow  girls  there  under  eighteen? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


549 


A.  Under  no  consideration,  unless  sometimes  we  have  had  cases  where 
they  come  up  with  their  sisters  and  we  knew  they  were  sisters. 

Q.  It  is  a nice  place?  A.  Yes, -sir. 

Q.  Then  what  is  the  difference?  A.  Because  after  you  allow  young 
girls  to  come  up  the  other  girls  will  not  come;  you  have  got  to  cater  to 

girls  twenty-two  and  up.  Then  you  don’t  have  any  trouble  and  it  looks 

better  all  around. 

Q.  Your  distinction  between  an  American  girl  and  a foreign  girl  is 
that  the  American  girl  drinks  higher-priced  liquor?  A.  What  I mean  by 
that  is  a girl  coming  of  a pretty  good  family.  The  idea_  is,  because  there 
is  liquor  in  the  building  is  no  sign  that  it  is  anything  like  the  halls  that 
make  a business  of  using  a bar  permit.  What  I want  to  explain  is,  that  up 
to  two  years  ago  we  had  a room  on  the  second  floor,  and  that  drinks  were 
brought  through  the  elevator.  Up  to  that  time  girls  would  go  down  there 
and  drink;  maybe  some  girls  would  go  down  four  or  five  times  and  some 
maybe  once.  They  would  go  down  and  get  beer  or  soda,  or  lemonade, 
and  a very  few  fancy  drinks;  and  by  dancing,  or  through  lots  of  exercise, 

they  would  leave  the  hall  about  12  o’clock  and  go  home.  Invariably  they 

would  go  home  when  that  district  was  closed.  They  told  us  we  better 
close  up  the  room  on  the  second  floor.  This  they  told  the  people  down- 
stairs. We  tried  to  not  allow  girls  to  leave  the  dance  hall.  We  put 
drinking  cups  up  there,  and  what  was  the  result.  The  girls  would  go 
about  10:30  o’clock,  go  to  a chop  suey  joint  or  restaurant,  and  they  were 
filled  with  drinks,  and  were  kept  out  to  2 or  3 o’clock  in  the  morning.  I 
know  that.  Under  the  old  system  they  would  get  two  or  three  drinks 
and  leave  there,  and  there  would  not  be  a trace  of  intoxication  on  them. 
The  chances  are  they  would  go  home,  and  the  chances  are  that  they  did, 
because  there  was  no  other  place  for  them  to  go.  When  they  would  not 
:[get  anything  to  drink  they  would  come  up  and  dance  several  dances  and 
then  light  out  for  some  other  place;  and  that  is  the  reason,  if  a place  is 
kept  under  control  and  the  girls  not  allowed  to  go  out,  it  is  better  than  to 
allow  them  to  run  out  and  run  down  the  street  and  go  to  restaurants, 
where  you  can  eet  a girl  drunk  in  just  one-third  of  the  time  it  will  take  to 
get  her  drunk  in  a hall  where  she  is  dancing.  I think  there  is  more  injury 
done  that  way  than  to  let  them  drink  in  the  hall.  There  is  one  thing  that 
I would  like  to  do  for  your  benefit.  It  probably  will  do  you  some  good. 
Within  a mile  of  our  place  we  have  got  a colony  of  Greeks.  These  Greeks 
don’t  put  up  a very  fine  appearance  on  week  days,  but  on  Sundays  they 
will  dress  up  with  a $10.00  suit  and  a very  flashy  collar,  and  a red  necktie, 
and  a handkerchief  in  their  coat,  and  they  start  out;  and  they  get  young 
girls  by  flirting  or  other  means.  Now,  these  Greeks  know  they  can’t  come 
into  places  like  ours,  because  they  have  tried  it.  They  can’t  get  into  the 
average  cafe  that  is  run  orderly,  and  they  have  got  no  means  of  trying  to 

lure  this  girl,  and  what  is  the  result.  The  result  is  they  buy  her  a hat  or 

„ shoes  to  wear.  They  are  poor  girls,  underpaid,  and  they  accomplish  more 
1 wrong  that  I see,  that  colony  of  Greeks  that  I see,  than  all  the  dance  halls 
in  the  City  of  Chicago,  even  the  dance  halls  where  they  allow  them  to 
drink  at  all  hours  of  the  night  as  much  as  they  want.  There  is  not  any 

at  our  place;  we  have  to  keep  them  out.  As  a rule,  these  girls  don’t 

average  over  sixteen  or  seventeen  years. 

Q.  You  have  kept  them  out?  A.  Yes,  we  don't  let  them  up.  If 
those  Greeks  come  up  there  alone  we  do  not  let  them  in.  In  the  first 

place,  they  don’t  know  how  to  approach  a girl.  They  try  to  warm  up  to 

her  and  they  “brace  her”  in  bold  fashion,  sometimes,  maybe,  make  a 
funny  remark  that  you  could  consider  an  insult.  We  have  got  men  in  our 
place  to  watch  for  fellows  like  that.  We  don’t  want  them  up  in  our 
place.  If  we  bar  them  altogether  as  a class  we  are  liable,  unless  we  have 

some  excuse,  but  there  is  where  the  thing  is  wrong,  and  it  is  a thing  that 

could  stand  a great  deal  of  investigation,  because  that  is  the  starter  with 
a whole  lot  of  girls;  more  than  all  your  dance  halls.  This  Juvenile  Pro- 
tective Association,  they  have  been  in  our  place,  and  I have  told  them  I 
want  them  to  be  there,  because  if  they  know  of  anything,  we  are  glad  to 
know  it,  but  those  are  things  they  are  overlooking. 


550 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  low,  wages  have  anything  to  do  with  the 
vice  problem?  A.  Yes,  sure,  I think  so,  but  that  isn’t  all.  The  trouble 
is  it  is  the  folks  at  home  that  ought  to  keep  that  girl  under  supervision 
until  she  is  at  least  eighteen  years  old.  But  the  trouble  is  nowadays  it  is 
the  high  living  that  80  per  cent  of  the  people  want.  They  want  something 
that  is  just  a little  bit  spicy.  They  don’t  probably  allow,  a lot  of  them 
don’t  want  very  much,  but  they  want  to  see  it.  A lot  of  these  girls,  if 
they  get  a new  dress,  they  feel  that  they  can  go  a little  bit  further  than 
they  have  been  used  to  going  with  their  small  wages. 

Q.  What  can  we  do  to  stop  that?  A.  And  there  is  another  line;  it 
is  a great  deal  of  trouble  to  cater  in  a hall  to  girls  that  have  been  brought 
up  in  the  wrong  light.  You  take  today,  look  at  the  young  girls  that 
associate  with  boys  that  are  wiser  than  they  were  in  my  time  when  1 
went  to  school:  the  boys  know  everything,  and  before  the  girls  are  out  of 
school  there  is  propositions  made  to  them.  After  they  have  started,  a 
great  many  of  them  are  hard  to  control.  There  is  a thing  that  we  ought 
to  do  in  this  country:  to  have  some  means  of  inducing  families  to  take 
care  of  children.  I have  had  people  come  into  my  place,  apparently 
well-to-do,  come  up  with  women,  and  when  they  get  on  the  floor  they  try 
to  pull  their  dresses  up  two-thirds  to  the  knees.  Our  men  go  out  and 
stop  them.  We  stand  only  for  straight  waltzing  or  two-steps;  we  won’t 
stand  for  that,  you  know.  We  don’t  allow  singing  in  our  place,  and  these 
well-to-do  people  come  up  there,  and  when  you  stop  them  they  will  go 
out,  and  some  of  them  will  say  to  you,  “You  ought  to  try  running  a 
church  instead  of  a dance  hall.”  That  is  what  you  get.  They  go  down 
in  one  of  these  swell  cafes  and  have  the  tango,  the  Boston  dip  or  the 
Princess  two-step,  or  something  like  that,  it  would  be  all  right;  but  simply 
because  they  go  over  to  our  place  they  want  to  know  why  we  could  not 
stand  for  it.  We  have  good  reasons.  We  don’t  want  to  allow  them  to  go 
too  far.  We  found  out  that  by  confining  them  to  waltzes  and  the  two- 
step  we  have  less  trouble  in  keeping  our  reputation  and  have  less  trouble 
with  our  patrons. 

Q.  Good  business  depends  somewhat  on  the  reputation  that  your 
place  enjoys?  A.  Altogether,  altogether.  You  take  a dance  hall,  if  it 
has  a loose  reputation,  if  it  loses  its  reputation,  it  is  gone  forever.  It 
never  comes  back.  I have  seen  halls  of  all  kinds  come  and  go.  I know 
of  one  hall,  for  instance,  within  a mile  of  our  place,  that  opened  up  about 
six  years  ago  and  allowed  them  to  drink  as  much  as  they  wanted.  They 
made  a lot  of  money.  People  said,  “Wh^^  don’t  you  allow  those  things, 
you  get  so  strict,”  when  the}^  could  not  get  drinks.  We  went  on  the 
theory  that  we  will  be  running  dances  rvhen  they  are  dead  and  forgotten. 
That  is  the  case.  Today  that  hall  has  got  a “for  rent”  sign  up  for  light 
manufacturing  purposes.  It  cannot  be  run  for  dancing  purposes.  It  has 
lost  its  reputation. 

Q.  Simply  because  thej'  went  too  far?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that,  in  your  judgment,  the  end  to  be  expected  by  any  dance 
hall  that  does  not  have  some  respect  for  its  reputation'  A.  \\'ell,  to  this 
hour  you  can’t  rent  it  out  to  anj^  society,  lodges  or  anything:  like  that. 
Yor  could  continue  to  run  dances  there  and  let  the  riff-raff  of  the  street 
come  in.  You  could  continue  along  that  line,  provided  the  police  would 
allows  you  to,  but  if  you  lose  3'our  reputation  3’ou  are  gone.  You  want  to 
keep  your  reputation  up  so  that  j^ou  can  rent  it  to  lodges,  the  K.  P.’s  or 
the  Knights  of  Columbus,  or  an\^  other  organization  along  that  line,  that’s 
what  I mean  by  reputation.  Also  when  j'ou  conduct  ^-our  oivn  dances 
when  your  reputation  is  gone  you  can’t  get  the  average  working  eirl  up 
there.  While  the  averaee  -working  girl  will  start  out  and  go  to  a place 
where  there  is  some  of  that  rough  work,  she  likes  to  stick  her  head  in 
the  door  and  look  on  for  a time.  iMa3'be  some,  the3'  will  get  a customer 
there  and  she  wdll  come  back,  but  ordinarily  she  will  take  a look  and 
then  go  away',  but  she  will  not  come  back. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  contribute  to  any  political  campaign  fund?  A 
Absolutely  not. 

Q.  Are  you  in  politics;  have  you  any  political  influence?  A.  Well. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


551 


I know  a good  many  leading  lights  around  town,  that’s  as  far  as  I can 
;say,  but  I never  asked  nothing  from  any  of  them  in  regards  to  our  place 
over  there. 

Q.  Then  you  are  not  dependent,  and  the  Vermont  Dance  Hall  is  not 
dependent,  upon  political  or  police  protection?  A.  No,  sir;  simply  be- 
cause we  don’t  keep  open  after  hours,  and  we  don’t  carry  on  anything  up 
there.  I have  often  asked  the  police  captain  to  come  up  and  pay  us  a 
visit,  and  they  would  come  back  at  me  and  say,  “Whenever  you  start  any- 
thing or  get  in  trouble  we  will  come  up.’’ 

Q.  Why  is  it  that  these  welfare  workers  don’t  give  you  a clean  bill  of 
health?  A.  We  have  talked  to  them.  I have  had  a woman  come  there 
'and  I talked  with  her  and  with  others.  They  said,  “You  have  certainly 
'some  very,  very  good  girls  here;  you  conduct  your  place  all  right.”  They 
all  told  me  that  on  the  floor.  I saw  some  over  there  the  other  day.  What 
has  crept  out  in  your  mind  is  the  drinking  downstairs.  It  looks  bad  to  a 
woman  that  has  never  been  around  to  any  place  to  speak  of.  Now,  to  an 
'average  man,  he  would  say  it  is  nothing  wrong,  but  to  some  of  the  women, 
that  is  what  has  crept  in  their  mind.  They  are  able  to  go  down  and  get  a 
drink  the  same  as  you  would  go  downstairs  here.  I have  been  to  dances 
in  this  place,  and  in  the  Sherman  House,  and  other  places,  and  we  went 
down  and  had  our  little  drink  and  came  back  again,  and  there  wasn’t  any- 
thing thought  of  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Don’t  you  think  the  fact  that  girls  may  go 
so  easily  from  your  dance  hall  to  the  barroom  directly  underneath  has 
much  to  do  with  the  criticism  of  the  welfare  workers?  A.  It  is  not 
directly  underneath,  it  is  not  directly  connected. 

Q.  Do  you  not  think  a man  desiring  to  lure  a girl  would  find  in  the 
arrangements  you  have  described  an  ideal  opportunity  to  operate?  A.  We 
[would  stop  him,  a man  that  is  going  to  do  that,  and  we  are  on  the  job. 
,As  Mrs.  Britton  said  about  women  police,  we  would  want  a woman  of 
that  kind.  We  have  to  hire  a couple  of  women  to  do  that. 

Mrs.  Margaret  Long’s  Testimony. 

' MRS.  MARGARET  LONG,  called  as  a witness  b'efore  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Long. 

Q.  Are  you  interested  in  junior  protection  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  With  what  organization?  A.  I have  been  with  the  Juvenile  Pro- 
tective Associatioil  three  and  a half  years. 

Q.  Are  you  connected  with  that  organization  at  present?  A.  Not 
at  present,  I am  with  the  Juvenile  Court. 

Q.  In  what  capacity?  A.  I am  head  of  a division  of  probation 
officers. 

Q.  Had  you  a statement  to  make  to  the  Committee?  A.  Why,  I 
have  in  regard  to  the  Juvenile  Protective  Association  paying  money.  I 
don’t  just  like  the  statement  one  man  made,  charging  that  the  Juvenile 
Protective  Association  had  paid  some  of  the  men.  A great  many  of  them 
do  volunteer  work;  others  are  paid. 

Q.  This  association  has  watchers  stationed  at  dance  halls,  where  the 
managers  of  the  halls  are  willing  to  pay  for  the  watchers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  visited  any  of  these  dance  halls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
i Q.  Tell  us  about  some  of  them.  -A.  We  visited  several  dance  halls, 
and  we  went  in  and  danced  whenever  we  were  asked;  danced  ourselves, 
land  the  gentleman  went  right  in;  the  male  escort  went  in  to  the  bar.  I 
[went  in  myself  where  the  other  women  and  girls  went  in  so  as  to  get  the 
! exact  facts,  the  real  facts  in  the  case. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  Roti  dance  hall?  A.  I don’t; 
'I  did  most  of  the  South  Side;  I did  Freiburg’s  and  most  of  the  South  Side 
; dance  halls, 
i; 


552  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Do  you  know  if  this  association  pays  anyone  stationed  at  Roti’s 
hall?  A.  I have  never  known  them  to  do  it  at  any  dance  hall  unless  they 
made  some  special  arrangement. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  visited  the  Vermont  Dance  Hall?  A.  No,  I have 
been  to  dance  halls  on  the  West  Side,  but  I am  not  clear  as  to  which 
ones  they  were;  I did  the  Dearborn  Dance  Hall. 

Q.  You  did  Freiburg’s  hall,  you  say?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  sort  of  a hall  is  that?  A.  Very  bad. 

Q._  Who  owns  it?  A.  Mr.  Bloom;  Ike  Bloom,  I think  that  is  the 
name,  if  I remember  correctly. 

Q.  _ Describe  to  the  Committee  Freiburg’s  hall  as  you  found  it.  A. 
We  arrived  at  the  hall  at  10  o’clock  and  we  stayed  until  almost  3 o’clock, 
and  the  girls  who  were  in  the  hall  are  girls  who  were  formerly  in  sport- 
ing houses  in  Twenty-second  Street,  they  told  me;  especially  one  of  the 
girls  who  had  been  in  one  of  the  well-known  houses  in  this  city;  she  was 
a girl,  she  came  here  because  she  understood  that  things  were  really 
wide  open  in  Chicago,  and  when  she  came  here  she  found,  to  her  disgust, 
that_  the  Twenty-second  Street  district  was  closed,  and  she  took  a 
furnished  flat  and  started  to  soliciting  at  Freiburg’s  very  openly. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  this?  A.  I should  say  in  January'. 

Q.  She  had  a furnished  flat  herself?  A.  I would  not  say  alone; 
she  had  a furnished  flat  she  stated  to  me. 

Q.  She  solicited  from  Freiburg’s?  A.  Yes,  sir;  from  Freiburg’s. 

Q.  Did  she  pay  any  money  or  any  commission  to  anybody  connected 
with  Freiburg’s?  A.  I believe  so. 

Q.  To  whom  did  she  say?  A.  To  the  management. 

Q.  Did  she  say  she  did?  A.  No,  she  didn’t  say  she  did,  but  each 
girl  really  contributes  in  the  buying  of  drinks;  they  go  in  there  and  they 
talk  with  the  men,  and  then  a certain  percentage  of  all  the  drinks  sold, 
they  get;  they  have  some  arrangement  in  that  way.  She  would  not  come 
out  and  tell  me,  but  she  had  a commission  arrangement. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  with  other  girls  at  Freiburg’s?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I did. 

Q.  Did  any  one  of  those  girls  mention  a certain  hotel  to  which  they 
were  accustomed  to  take  men?  A.  They  did  not;  most  of  them,  I be- 
lieve, had  furnished  rooms,  furnished  flats. 

Q.  Now,  this  girl  who  gave  you  to  understand  she  was  working  on 
some  sort  of  a commission,  what  did  she  say  to  you?  A.  She  intimated 
so  without  stating  positively.  She  said — I asked  her  how  the  girls  were 
getting  along  now — she  did  not  know  in  what  capacit3"  I was  there — she 
said,  “Well,  considering  that  the  Twenty-second  Street . district  was  sub- 
stantially closed,  that  the  girls  were  doing  very  well,  most  of  them.’’  I 
said,  “Well,  how  do  you  do?”  She  said,  “We  just  came  in  here,  j-ou  see 
how  it  is.”  This  place  was  simply  crowded.  A great  many  slumming 
parties,  and  a great  many  men  there  without  any  escorts  at  all.  “You  see 
how  it  is  here.  We  simply  come  in  here  and  talk  to  fellows,  it’s  really 
easy  money.” 

Q.  She  said  it  was  easy  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  there  were  many  slumming  parties  there;  did  the  men 
in  these  parties  bring  their  wives  and  sisters  with  them?  A.  Yes,  they 
did;  there  were  people  I knew  personally. 

Q.  Persons  of  standing?  A.  Decidedly  so.  They  may  have  been 
going  for  the  same  reason  that  we  were  going,  on  a social  investigation, 
as  a great  many  women  do,  a great  many  women  who  are  interested  from 
out-of-town,  as  I would  be  if  I were  going  to  an  Eastern  ciV-  to  compare 
conditions.  I think,  otherwise,  it  is  very  demoralizing  to  take  a girl  who 
is  not  married,  or  even  one’s  wife. 

Q.  Do  good  girls  go  to  Freiburg’s?  A.  Yes,  I think  good  girls  have 
gone  there;  not  many.  I know  of  one  girl  who  went  there  who  absolutely 
did  not  know  the  reputation  of  the  place. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that.  A.  She  was  a little  girl  who  came  here  and 
got  acquainted  with  a young  lawyer.  This  young  man  lawyer  asked  her 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


553 


if  she  would  not  go  to  dinner  with  him,  and  took  her  in  the  vicinity  of 
Twenty-second  Street,  and  took  her  to  Freiburg’s.  The  girl  was  after- 
wards, she  said,  ruined  by  this  same  man.  He  evidently  led  her  into  this 
sort  of  a life.  She  is  the  only  girl  I know  of,  a good  girl. 

Q.  You  have  the  name  of  that  girl  and  all  the  circumstances?  A.  I 
think  we  have  the  records  of  it. 

Q.  And  you  believe  that  to  be  a true  and  accurate  statement?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  think  some  girls  go  bad  because  of  the 
dance  halls?  A.  I do  think  that  the  different  dance  halls  are  responsible 
for  a great  deal  of  vice.  I think  that  the  Dearborn  Dance  Hall  is  one  of 
the  worst  in  the  City  of  Chicago. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  one  of  the  worst?  A.  I think  it  was  one  of  the 
worst.  I was  there  some  time  in  February. 

Q.  What  did  you  see  there?  A.  I saw  a great  many  things  that  I 
think  were  immoral.  I met  one  little  girl,  I think  she  said  she  was  from 
a small  town  in  Wisconsin  or  Iowa,  and  she  pleaded  with  her  escort,  a 
married  man,  to  take  her  home.  I said  to  her,  “Is  this  your  first  experi- 
ence here?”  and  she  said  yes.  She  said,  “I  came  from  a small  town  and 
it  would  be  a disgrace  at  home  to  visit  a place  like  this;  don’t  you  think 
it  is  awful?”  And  one  woman  said,  “You  ought  to  have  been  here  a year 
ago  or  two  when  they  sold  liquor.”  This  little  girl  pleaded  with  this 
man  to  go  home,  and  he  absolutely  refused  to  take  her,  and  the  man  who 
was  with  me  offered  to  take  her  home,  but  she  would  not  go  with  him. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  would  you  suggest?  I have  talked  to 
Johnson  about  the  8,000  girls  that  live  in  that  neighborhood,  girls  that 
work  at  different  places  around  in  the  city  that  pay  $1.25  or  $1.50  for  a 
' room  and  no  enjoyment  for  them  there;  what  would  you  suggest  to  do 
with  those  girls,  who  have  got  to  have  some  amusement?  A.  I would 
suggest  to  Mr.  Johnson  that  if  he  is  going  to  run  a dancing  school  that  he 
run  a dancing  school  and  not  a place  where  girls  could  go  and  deliberately 
solicit  the  people  that  are  there,  and  make  it  an  immoral  dance  hall. 

Q.  But  what  would  you  suggest?  A.  I think  the  liquor  question  is 
S the  thing,  if  they  must  have  dances. 

I Q.  Your  idea  is  to  cut  the  liquor  out?  A.  Decidedly. 

I Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  dance  halls  would  be  all  right  if  the  liquor 
[ was  cut  out?  A.  Yes,  sir;  or  if  the  majority  of  the  saloons  weren’t  open 
from  the  dance  hall. 

Q.  What  would  you  think  of  the  question  of  a lady  policeman?  A. 
Well,  I don’t  know,  I really  would  not  want  to  give  my  idea  on  that;  I 
think  that  a woman  stationed  in  a hall  would  be  a splendid  thing. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  the  Normandy  Hotel  in  your  work?  A. 
I have. 

Q.  What  reputation  does  it  bear?  A.  Well,  rather  questionable,  I 
would  say. 

Q.  Is  there  any  question  about  its  having  a questionable  reputation? 
A.  I think  not. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  hotel?  A.  I have.  I went  through  all 
those  hotels  looking  for  work  supposedly;  I got  entrance  to  all;  the  best 
and  the  worst.  I have  been  from  the  Blackstone  down  to  the  very  lowest 
hotel  in  the  City  of  Chicago;  been  right  through  them. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  A year  ago  last  winter. 

Q.  How  did  you  find  the  Normandy  compared  with  the  Blackstone  in 
the  matter  of  morality?  A.  I hardly  think  there  is  any  comparison,  so 
far  as  I can  understand.  I understand  it  is  rather  hard  to  keep  servants 
there. 

Q.  Where?  A.  At  the  Normandy.  However,  they  were  very  re- 
luctant to  allow  me  to  get  into  the  hotel  at  all.  I could  not  say  as  much 
about  that  as  the  rest  of  the  hotels. 


554  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Were  you  ever  at  the  Marlborough  Hotel?  A.  I could  not 
remember. 

Q.  The  Superior  Hotel?  A.  On  the  North  Side?  No. 

Q.  The  Hotel  Cecil?  A.  Is  that  a Wabash  Avenue  hotel? 

Q.  Right  across  from  the  Normandy.  A.  Yes,  v:e  have  a record  on 
that. 

Q.  Were  you  in  the  LaSalle  House,  not  this  one,  but  the  other  La- 
Salle House?  A.  No,  I don’t  remember  of  the  other  LaSalle;  I have 
been  through  this. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  wrong  with  this  one?  A.  Yes,  we  did  find 

something  wrong,  but  it  was  corrected.  It  was  something  in  the  laundry, 
and  it  was  immediately  corrected  when  it  was  brought  to  the  attention  of 
the  hotel  people.  It  was  not  anything  from  an  immoral  standpoint. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  wrong  at  the  Normandy  Hotel?  A. 

From  the  impression  I got,  and  from  seeing  girls  coming  around  and 
sitting  in  the  parlor,  I believed  them  waiting  for  men  to  meet  them. 

Frank  Olson’s  Testimony. 

FRANK  OLSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Frank  Olson. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I conduct  a hall  at  459  Thirty -first 
Street. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a hall?  A.  Dance  hall. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  conducting  that  hall?  A.  About  seven 
years. 

Q What  is  the  name  of  the  hall?  A.  It  is  called  the  Felicity  Club. 
It  used  to  have  another  name. 

Q.  What  floor  is  that  hall  on?  A.  The  first  one. 

Q.  Is  there  any  saloon  or  bar  connected  with  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  serve  any  liquors?  A.  No,  we  did  for  years,  but 
our  license  was  revoked. 

Q.  Why?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Harrison  told  me  that  it  was  going  to  be 
against  the  policy  of  this  administration  to  allow  a dance  and  bar  running 
together.  I told  him  I thought  it  was  a very  fine  idea:  so  he  says,  “You 
better  dispose  of  your  license.”  I says,  “All  right,”  and  I done  so.  I 
didn’t  go  to  any  very  great  trouble  to  have  it  restored,  even  if  that  could 
have  been  done.  I think  myself  it  was  a very  good  plan. 

Q.  Does  it  hurt  your  business  any?  A.  Well,  there  is  not  as  much 
profit  by  any  means  in  the  place  as  there  was,  but  I don’t  believe  in  a 
bar  dance  hall  and  never  did.  If  you  run  a dance  hall  tough,  unless  you  are 
catering  to  the  sporting  element,  you  soon  lose  your  business.  If  j-ou  run 
your  hall  tough,  you  would  be  very  short  of  girls;  you  could  not  get  girls 
if  you  gave  them  free  admission;  you  would  have  all  men;  finally,  if  vou 
had  a lot  of  men  and  no  girls  to  dance  with,  they  would  soon  be  stepping 
on  each  other’s  toes,  and  there  would  be  fights  all  the  time,  and  you 
couldn’t  handle  them.  You  have  got  to  keep  order  to  stay  in  business. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  places  that  you  know  of,  dance  halls  that  are 
running  with  bars  attached?  A.  Why,  there  are  bars  in  the  building,  and 
so  forth.  I haven’t  been  around  to  the  dance  halls  to  speak  of  much, 
especially  halls  with  bars,  since  we  lost  our  license  out  there.  I hadn’t 
any  idea,  that  there  was  so  many  as  there  is  until  the  lady  said  there  was 
something  like  212. 

Q.  Why  did  5'ou  lose  your  license  if  others  no  worse  retained  theirs? 
A.  I asked  Mr.  Harrison  if  there  was  anything  about  the  management  of 
my  place  that  caused  him  to  revoke  it.  He  said,  no;  he  said  he  thought 
my  place  was  one  of  the  very  best  conducted  places  in  Chicago.  I know  I 
am  considered  practically  the  best. 

Q.  Then  why  did  you  lose  your  license?  A.  V’ell,  I don’t  know;  I 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


555 


have  suspicions;  I never  was  with  Harrison.  The  local  man  that  is  the 
political  czar  of  that  district,  that  is  with  Harrison,  I figured  that  he 
likely  had  something  to  do  with  it,  but  that  is  only  guesswork  on  my  part. 

Q.  Who  is  the  local  czar  of  that  district?  A.  Our  Commissioner 
of  Streets,  Frank  Solon. 

Q.  You  are  not  on  good  political  terms  with  him?  A.  I thought  I 
was,  but  I was  not.  I had  had  a talk  with  Solon  in  the  spring,  they  held 
some  political  meetings  there,  and  I had  a talk  with  him,  and  I said, 
'“Perhaps  Harrison  will  be  elected;  you  are  the  boss  out  here;  I am  giving 
the  hall  for  political  meetings,”  which  I did,  gratis,  “but  I am  not  voting 
for  Harrison.”  He  said,  “You  and  I will  get  along  all  right.”  So  we 
were  going  about,  they  were  going  to  put  a free  fight  bill  through  the 
council,  and  he  came  down  to  see  me;  he  wanted  the  hall  for  fights,  the 
hall  we  are  using,  I simply  run  regular  dances  there,  and  he  wanted  the 
hall  for  nights  that  the  hall  was  not  in  use,  and  I went  and  seen  the  owner 
and  arranged  for  him  to  have  the  fights.  They  didn’t  put  that  bill  over. 
We  opened  up  in  the  fall  and  did  a nice  business.  Pretty  soon  I got  my 
notice  to  appear  before  the  Mayor,  so  I appeared  before  the  Mayor,  and 
he  told  me  he  was  going  to  close  the  hall  because  he  said  it  would  be  the 
policy  of  this  administration  not  to  allow  bars  in  connection  with  dance 
halls.  I said  simply,  “All  right.  I believe  it  is  a verv  good  idea.”  I called 
on  Solon  twice.  He  said,  “I  will  take  care  of  that,”  but  then,  of  course,  I 
talked  to  somebody  else  there  and  he  said  that  he  would  not.  but  I just 
wanted  to  see  him,  just  simply  to  give  him  a chance  if  he  wanted  to. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  it  as  a good  policy  to  stand  in  with  the  political 
bosses?  A.  If  a man  is  running  a bar  dance  hall  or  any  amusement 
business,  any  business  where  he  requires  a license,  why.  I don’t  think  that 
he  would  be  showing  very  good  judgment  to  fall  out  with  any  of  the  local 
politicians  in  any  party,  because  they  would  soon  work  on  him  from  some 
source. 

Q.  How  would  they  go  about  it?  A.  Well,  usually  through  the 
police  department;  somebody  would  commence  to  find  fault.  They  would 
send  to  you  and  tell  you  that  something  serious  had  hapoened,  and  they 
would  have  to  suggest  to  the  Mavor  that  he  revoke  your  license,  or  some- 
thing like  that,  and  then  it  would  be  time  for  you  to  get  busy  to  arrange 
something. 

Q.  What  would  you  get  busy  arranging?  A.  Get  busy  to  ask  who 
to  see,  or  something  like  that,  or  somebody  would  come  around.  They 
would  make  themselves  known. 

Q.  Come  around  with  their  hands  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  any  money?  A.  Oh,  yes;  certainly. 

Q.  To  whom?  A.  Well,  the  last  time  I gave  money,  we  can  talk 
about  this  freely,  because  he  is  fired  now.  Let  us  see,  I met  Lieutenant 
Plunkett,  of  Thirty-first  and  State;  he  had  been  after  me  for  several 
months;  he  says,  “Don’t  you  want  to  run  a little  game  here:  why  don’t 
you  run  after  1 o’clock?”  I says,  “No,  my  crowd  is  all  working  people 

and  they  go  home  before  1 o’clock.”  He  proposed  lots  of  things  to  me.  I 

met  him  one  night  at  Thirty-first  and  State,  I was  going  over  to  the  hall, 
I had  a lot  to  do;  and  he  says,  “Wait  a minute,  and  take  a trip  over  here 
to  Thirty-ninth  with  me.”  I did,  and  we  stonoed  in  twenty  places,  and 
he  asked  them  how  business  was.  Finally,  at  Thirty-ninth,  he  says.  “You 
see,  you  have  got  to  come  across  with  the  twentv-five,  or  I will  make  you 
trouble,  Frank.”  I said,  “I  will  see  about  that.”  So  I didn’t  do  it.  He 
sent  a couple  of  coppers  down  there,  and  they  would  stand  on  the  edge 
of  the  sidewalk,  and  as  the  people  came  out  of  my  nlace,  the  police  were 
out  in  front  abusing  them  as  they  came  out.  I don’t  know  just  what 
arrangements  I did  make,  but  I gave  him  the  $25.00.  He  moved  from  that 
district,  but  I got  another  deal  later.  He  was  away  out  at  Grand  Cross- 
ing. He  found  something  out,  met  somebody  in  my  place  and  sent  for 
me.  He  could  easily  find  a newspaper  story,  but  this  time  I happened  to 
know  all  about  the  thing. 

Q.  What  year  was  this  in  that  you  say  you  gave  him  the  twenty- 
five?  A.  1 guess  that  was  in  the  other  administration;  it  was  not  during 
this  administration. 


556  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  years  ago?  A.  Maybe  three  years  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  anybody  else  money?  A.  Yes,  I will  tell  you 
positively  that  I have  never  paid  any  protection  money  for  running  after 
1 o’clock,  or  for  catering  to  minors,  or  for  breaking  any  law,  never  since  I 
have  been  in  that  place,  in  that  one  business,  but  many  a frame-up  I have 
been  up  against  similar  to  that.  For  instance,  at  one  time,  I don’t  remem- 
ber who  the  captain  was,  but  the  captain  sent  for  me  and  I went  over  to 
see  him.  He  says,  “There  was  a fellow  shot  a girl  out  at  Forty-eighth  and 
Paulina  Street,  a negro;  he  is  a hold-up  man,  he  is  real  bad,  he  had  been 
dealing  with  girls  and  peddling  them  down  the  line,  and  he  got  some  girls 
in  your  place,”  and  he  said  that  he  guessed  I was  “up  against  a bad 
proposition.”  I said  to  him,  “I  don’t  see  why  you  sent  for  me  to  come 
over  to  see  you;  I think  this  is  all  nonsense.”  I knew  during  the  time 
that  the  captain  was  there  before  that  they  had  framed  up  some  little 
deals.  I said,  “If  there  is  a frame-up  on  me  of  any  kind  I would  sooner 
settle  than  fight;  that  is  me.”  I said,  “Send  your  man  over  to  see  me.” 
He  says,  “You  will  have  to  be  in  court;  I want  you  to  see  this  fellow.”  I 
said,  “All  right.”  Two  fellows  approached  me  near  my  home,  and  they 
said  they  were  friends  of  the  captain,  and  I was  to  see  them.  I gave  them 
$25.00. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Kind  of  an  easy  mark?  A.  I don’t  know 
whether  that  is  so  or  not. 

Q.  But  you  gave  up  the  $25.00  and  didn’t  get  into  trouble?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Who  did  you  give  it  to?  A.  I don’t  know 
who  these  fellows  was,  I don’t  know ; I don’t  know  that  they  were  police- 
men; they  seemed  to  know  the  captain  and  my  business,  so  I suppose  that 
they  were  the  right  fellows. 

Q.  Who  was  the  policeman?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you  who  the  captain 
was,  I can’t  remember. 

Q.  Is  he  still  on  the  force?  A.  I don’t  know;  I never  got  acquainted 
with  the  captain.  That  is  the  only  time  I have  ever  seen  that  man;  in 
fact,  I know  our  captain  is  at  Thirty-fifth  and  Halsted  at  the  present  time, 
I know  his  name,  but  didn’t  know  this  one  that  come  to  me. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  mentioned  about  peddling  girls.  What 
do  you  mean  by  that?  A.  I mean  fellows  that  procure  girls  for  places 
in  the  levee. 

Q.  You  know  of  persons,  or  did  know  of  persons  doing  that?  A. 
No,  I didn’t.  We  once  in  a while  run  into  something  like  that;  that  is  to 
say,  if  we  find  that  anyone  is  there,  any  fellows  come  there  that  is  not 
working,  that  live  in  the  levee  district,  we  bar  them  on  general  principles. 

Q.  There  is  a saloon  next  door  to  ypu,  isn’t  there,  Mr.  Olson?  A. 
No.  When  1 took  the  place  we  cut  out  return  checks.  It  put  two  saloons 
out  of  business..  I will  tel!  you  about  that  time.  That  was  six  j-ears  ago, 
and  a man  said  the  place  had  a bad  name  and  it  never  could  be  brought 
back.  This  building  cost  $114,000  to  build;  the  property  could  be  bought, 
theatre,  large  hall,  dance  hall  and  all  for  $40,000  seven  years  ago.  After  I 
was  there  a year  and  a half  we  traded  for  $65,000,  my  being  there  increased 
the  value  of  the  property  that  much.  When  I took  the  place  it  was  owned 
by  one  of  the  wealthiest  speculating  concerns  in  this  city,  the  Assets 
Realization  Company,  and  they  told  me  that  they  wanted  that  place  con- 
ducted properly,  and  they  told  me  that  I was  practically  the  only  man 
that  could  put  it  on  its  feet  and  run  it  right,  and  I have  tried  to  follow 
their  instructions  the  best  I could.  They  afterwards  sold  the  place  for 
$65,000,  and  the  building  is  worth  a good  deal  more  than  that;  it  is  worth 
$80,000  now  on  the  income. 

Q.  Are  you  going  to  keep  giving  up  monej^  to  political  czars  and 
men  claiming  to  be  policemen  or  their  representatives?  A.  No,  sir. 
When  a man  has  got  a bar  proposition  it  is  easy  to  frame  up  something 
on  him,  but  when  he  has  not,  that’s  another  proposition.  I think  that 
there  is  less  of  it  by  80  per  cent  now  than  there  has  been. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


557 


Q.  Public  sentiment  has  crystallized  against  it?  A.  Yes,  sir;  there 
is  one  thing  that  I heard  you  ask  questions  on,  and  that  is  on  the  profits 
of  the  bar  the  other  day.  I have  been  through  the  mill  a little  bit  on 
that,  and  I could  tell  you  that  the  profits  of  the  bar  is  not  nearly  as  large 
as  people  often  think.  I think  that  the  dance  halls  would  be  actually  a lot 
better  off  and  make  a good  deal  more  money  if  there  was  not  any  bar 
permits.  The  fact  is,  there  is  only  about  10  cents  a head  made  on  Satur- 
day night  dances  on  the  bar.  There  is  in  the  middle  of  the  week,  perhaps 
7 or  8 cents  clear.  That  sounds  ridiculous,  but  it  is  so. 

Q.  What  makes  girls  go  wrong?  A.  Well,  that  is  your  problem;  I 
couldn’t  tell  you  that. 

THE  WITNESS:  Now,  about  singing:  we  have  singing  out  there,  but 
we  don’t  have  any  of  the  ragtime  music  or  bad  singing.  I think  singing 
is  fine. 

Q.  Do  you  sing  “All  Night  Long”  at  your  place?  A.  Oh,  no;  we 
close;  we  close  at  1 o’clock. 

Whereupon  the  Committee  went  into  executive  session,  and  ad- 
journed. 


SESSION  XXI 


1 1 

rl  In  response  to  many  requests  from  citizens  of  Springfield, 

! Illinois,  the  Committee  holds  a public  hearing  in  that  city  and  calls 
t L as  first  witnesses  the  mayor,  the  superintendent  of  police,  two 
[ woman  proprietors  of  houses  of  ill-fame,  the  proprietors,  also 

i ! guests  and  employes  of  a hotel  concerning  which  one  of  the  Com- 
mittee’s investigators  gives  evidence.  Owners  of  property  leased 
for  criticised  hotels  and  as  assignation  houses  are  questioned. 
Testimony  of: 

John  S.  Schnepp,  mayor  of  Springfield; 

Mr.  Olla  Forrest; 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  C.  W.  Venable,  proprietors  Victor  Hotel; 

Grace  Clyboum,  investigator  for  the  Committee; 

J— M ; 

H S ; 

M M ; 

Florence  Patton; 

Mr.  John  H.  Underwood,  superintendent  of  police; 

I Mr,  Charles  G.  Wineteer,  owner  of  property  occupied  by 

the  Park  Hotel; 

Mr.  G.  J.  Little,  owner  of  property  occupied  by  Victor  Hotel; 
Rev.  John  R.  Golden,  pastor  West  Side  Christian  Church. 

Springfield,  Illinois,  April  24,  1913,  8 o’clock  P.  M. 

Leland  Hotel. 

THE  ILLINOIS  SENATE  VICE  COMMITTEE  met,  pursuant 
to  notice. 

;i  Members  Present  : 

I Lieutenant-Governor  Barratt  O’Hara,  Chairman ; 

(Senators  Juul,  Beall,  Woodard  and  Tossey. 

Thereupon  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Before  the  examination  of  the  witnesses,  the 
Committee  desires  to  make  this  statement : Tlie  Committee  is  meeting  here  this 
week,  in  response  to  an  invitation  from  a number  of  your  prominent  citizens,  in 
furtherance  of  its  work  in  investigating  vice  and  wage  conditions  throughout  the 
entire  state.  The  Committee  does  not  in  any  sense  consider  Springfield  the 
worst  or  the  wickedest  city  in  the  state,  and  publications  to  that  effect  were  with- 
out the  authorization,  knowledge  or  approval  of  this  Committee,  v/hich  does  not 
hold  it  as  part  of  its  duty  to  single  out  any  cities  of  the  stale  for  especial  censure 
or  especial  praise. 

» Mr.  John  S.  Schnepp’s  Testimony. 

I JOHN  S.  SCHNEPP,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
1 testified  as  follows : 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  S.  Schnepp. 

Q.  Your  official  position?  A.  Mayor  of  Springfield. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  Mayor  of  Springfield?  A.  More  than  four 
years. 


559 


560  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  During  that  time,  Mr.  Mayor,  you  have  been  fairly  well  familiar  with 
vice  conditions  in  this  city?  A.  As  for  the  first  two  years;  since  that  time  we 
have  had  the  commission  form  of  government,  and  I have  paid  very  little  atten- 
tion to  it. 

Q.  That  is,  during  the  last  two  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  the  first  two  years  of  your  administration  you  were  directly  in 
control  of  the  police?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  those  first  two  years,  Mr.  Mayor,  did  you  have  a segregated 
district  in  Springfield?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  houses  in  that  district?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  were  never  informed?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  inquired?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  all  of  the  prostitution  in  the  City  of  Springfield  confined  to  that 
segregated  district?  A.  It  was  my  orders  to  have  it  so. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  find  that  prostitution  extended  outside  of  the  limits  of 
the  segregated  district?  A.  Not  after  the  first  six  months  after  I took  up  the 
duties  of  Mayor  of  the  city. 

Q.  At  the  present  time  has  Springfield  a segregated  district?  A.  I 
think  so. 

Q.  The  same  segregated  district  as  when  you  were  first  elected  Mayor  of 
this  city?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  the  Committee,  Mr.  Mayor,  about  where  this  district  is 
located?  A.  In  the  northeast  part  of  the  city;  northeast  of  the  Square. 

Q.  What  street?  A.  I think  part  on  Eighth  street  and  part  on  Jefferson 
street. 

Q.  On  Eighth  and  Jefferson  streets?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Beginning  at  what  streets  and  running  to  what  streets?  A.  Well,  I 
am  sure  I don’t  know;  probably  on  Jefferson  street,  beginning  half-way  between 
Seventh  and  Eighth,  and  running  thence  east  to  Ninth  street,  and  probably  north 
to  the  railroad.  I don’t  know  very  much  about  the  district. 

Q.  How  could  you  tell,  Mr.  Mayor,  if  you  were  confining  prostitution  to 
that  district  unless  there  were  well  defined  territorial  lines?  A.  I leave  that 
up  to  the  Chief. 

Q.  That  was  left  entirely  to  the  Chief?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  any  one  run  a house  of  prostitution  in  that  district?  A.  I think 
so,  provided  they  didn’t  violate  any  other  laws. 

Q.  What  laws  were  there  to  regulate  their  business?  A.  We  pre- 
vented their  selling  drinks  of  any  kind. 

Q.  They  were  never  permitted  to  sell  drinks  in  any  of  those  houses? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Neither  in  the  daytime  nor  at  night?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  permit  music?  A.  I don’t  know;  I don’t  remember  about 

that. 

Q.  Is  music  permitted  now?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Is  the  sale  of  intoxicants  permitted  at  this  time?  A.  I don’t 
think  so. 

Q.  Are  the  inmates  of  those  houses  obliged  to  undergo  a medical 
examination?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  proprietors  of  those  houses  pay  a license  to  the  citj'?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  frequently  arrested  and  fined  in  court?  A.  No,  sir;  not 
in  the  city  court;  I think  sometimes  they  are  fined  by  the  State’s  Attorney 
in  the  Circuit  or  County  Court. 

Q.  But  there  is  no  such  thing  as  a regular  custom  here  of  haling  them 
into  court  and  fining  them  and  making  them  pay  tribute,  through  fining? 
A.  There  was  at  the  time  of  my  first  election,  but  there  hasn’t  been  since. 

Q.  During  the  four  years  that  you  have  served  as  chief  executive  of  this 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


561 


city,  Mr.  Mayor,  have  complaints  ever  been  made  to  you  regarding  hotels? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  have  heard  of  any  hotel  in  the  city  of  Springfield,  outside 
of  the  segregated  district,  being  of  a shady  character?  A.  I have  heard 
rumors;  that  is  all. 

Q.  But  no  official  report?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  no  protest  has  ever  been  made  or  brought  to  you  by  any  citizen 
or  number  of  citizens?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  any  of  the  hotels  in  the  city  of  Springfield 
outside  of  that  district  are  of  a shady  nature?  A.  I am  sure  I don’t  Imow. 

Q.  You  have  no  opinion  on  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  in  favor,  Mr.  Mayor,  of  the  old  form  of  government  or  the 
commission  form  of  city  government  here,  or  haven’t  you  ever  taken  a stand 
in  that  matter?  A.  I have  never  taken  a stand.  The  commission  form  has 
some  very  good  features.  There  are  some  things  about  the  old  form  of 
government  that  I like  better. 

Q.  At  the  time  the  form  of  government  was  changed  here,  w^ere  you 
for  or  against  the  change?  A.  I was  for  the  change. 

Q.  Since  the  commission  form  of  government  was  inaugurated,  have 
you  heard  of  any  movement  toward  going  back  to  the  old  form?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  money  being  raised  for  a campaign  fund 
with  that  purpose  in  view?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  has  immorality  and  prostitution  increased  or  de- 
creased in  Springfield  since  the  commission  form  of  government  came  into 
being?  A.  Well,  from  the  rumors  that  I hear  I would  say  that  it  has  in- 
creased. 

Q.  Mr.  Mayor,  why  do  you  think  girls  go  wrong?  A.  I don’t  believe 
I am  capable  of  answering  that  question. 

Q.  Do  you  think  low  wages  ever  has  anything  to  do  with  it?  A.  I 
don’t  know,  I am  sure;  I hardly  think  so. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  low  wages  has  very  much  to  do  with  it?  A. 
It  may  have. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  that  it  costs  a girl  to  live  in  the  city  of  Spring- 
field,  the  least  amount  that  she  can  live  upon  in  this  city?  A.  I wouldn’t 
have  very  much  of  an  idea  on  that  subject;  I have  never  thought  of  it. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  she  could  live  on  $3.00  or  $4.00  a week?  A. 
Why,  it  would  take  more  than  that  to  pay  her  board,  if  she  had  to  pay  her 
board. 

Q.  It  would  take  more  than  that?  A.  Very  much  more,  I should 
think. 

Q.  Could  a girl  possibly  live  on  30  cents  a day  in  Springfield,  buy  her 
clothing  and  pay  for  her  room,  get  three  square  meals  a day,  pay  for  her 
laundry — could  she  do  it  on  30  cents  a day?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge,  or  have  you  ever  heard  of 
employers  paying  girls  only  30  cents  a day?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  information  to  that  effect,  to  your  knowledge?  A. 
Not  to  my  knowledge;  no,  sir. 

Q.  As  Mayor  of  this  city,  do  you  believe  that  an  employer  who  pays 
girls  30  cents  a day  for  eight  hours’  work  is  a good  citizen  of  Springfield? 
A.  Well,  I would  hardly  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  believe,  Mr.  Mayor,  if  such  conditions  exist  in  this  city,  or 
other  cities  in  the  State  of  Illinois,  that  the  Legislature  should  enact  legisla- 
tion prohibiting  that  sort  of  thing,  that  the  State  has  a right  to  interfere  by 
law?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  a woman  known  as  Olla  Forrest?  A.  I 
think  I have  seen  her  name  in  the  paper. 

Q.  In  what  connection,  Mr.  Mayor?  A.  In  connection  with  the  courts. 

Q.  As  the  proprietress  of  a house  of  prostitution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


562  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  this  woman,  or  any  other  woman,  paying 
money  into  any  campaign  fund  for  any  purpose?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  o<^  any  one  soliciting  this  woman  To  pay  money  into 
any  campaign  fund?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  For  any  purpose?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  the  Victor  Hotel,  ^Ir.  Mayor?  A.  Yes,  sY. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located?  A.  It  is  located  on  Adams  street,  between 
Third  and  Fourth. 

Q What  would  you  say  the  reputation  of  this  hotel  is?  A.  1 really 
don’t  know. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  protest  made  to  you,  as  Mayor  of  this  city, 
against  this  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  complaint  of  any  kind?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  a hotel  known  as  the  Cliff  House?  A.  No, 
s'lr;  I don’t  know  where  that  is  located. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  that  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  complaints  have  ever  been  made  against  that  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Mayor,  I think  I have  but  one  more  question  to  ask  you:  Dur- 
ing your  four  years,  has  any  complaint  or  protest  ever  been  made  to  you 
against  any  flat,  hotel  or  house  of  prostitution  in  the  city  of  Springfield? 
A.  There  were  quite  a number  of  protests  made  some  time  ago,  but  I never 
took  them,  I just  refererd  the  people  to  Commissioner  Davidson,  who  had 
charge  of  the  police  force. 

Q.  Now,  those  protests  were  against  hotels,  flats  and  houses  of  prosti- 
tution? A.  I don’t  remember  w'hat  places  they  w-ere. 

Q.  It  is  quite  possible  that  protests  against  some  of  these  hotels  and 
flats  may  have  been  made?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Mayor,  some  time  ago  the  segregated  district  in  Chicago  was 
closed.  At  the  time  of  the  closing  of  that  district,  did  any  of  the  girls  come 
to  Springfield?  A.  I am  sure  I do  not  know. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  that?  A.  No,  sir  . 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Mayor,  if  it  should  be  proved  bj'  our  evidence 
here  which  we  shall  have  before  us  the  next  two  days  that  there  are  certain 
houses  in  Springfield,  over  a dozen,  probably,  being  what  you  might  call 
rooming  houses,  w'here  they  send  out  and  bring  in  girls — if  it  should  be 
proven  to  you  that  such  \vas  the  case,  -would  you  take  means  to  stop  it? 
A.  I would  do  everything  in  my  powder  to  stop  it. 

Q.  If  there  are  houses  here  in  the  city,  half  a dozen  of  them,  that  make 
a regular  business  of  sending  out  and  bringing  in  girls  to  those  houses,  and 
if  the  Committee  should  ask  you  to  see  that  those  houses  ceased  to  do  so, 
w'ould  you  be  willing  to  do  this?  A.  I would  be  -willing  to  do  that,  but  it 
wouldn’t  be  under  my  supervision. 

Q.  You  would  give  your  Chief  of  Police  orders,  -wouldn’t  you,  to  see 
tliat  they  w'ere  closed?  A.  I don’t  give  the  Chief  of  Police  orders;  Com- 
missioner Davidson  does  that. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  He  is  a Commissioner;  -we  are  under  the  commis- 
sion form  of  government. 

Q.  There  are  four  of  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q-  If  you  w-ere  convinced  that  certain  things  were  transpiring  here, 
and  you  had  the  power  to  give  Commissioner  Davidson  orders  to  close  up 
those  houses,  would  you  do  it?  A.  I certainly  would. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  kir.  kfayor,  have  you  ever  heard  of  the  Park 
Hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  that  a good  reputation?  A.  We  had  a complaint  about  that, 
since  you  call  my  attention  to  it,  about  six  or  eight  months  ago,  I should 
judge,  and  at  that  time  w'e  had  it  up  before  the  Commission.  We  requested 
Commissioner  Davidson  at  that  time  to  station  a policeman  at  the  door,  and 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  563 

he  did  that  for  a while,  but  the  Chief  can  tell  you  the  results  of  that  better 
than  I can. 

Q.  That  hotel  is  still  running?  A.  Yes,  sir.  None  of  those  places  are 
running  with  my  consent. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Mayor.  Thank  you. 

(Witness  excused.) 

011a  Forrest’s  Testimony. 

OLLA  FORREST  was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  first  been  duly 
sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Olla  Forrest. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mrs.  Forrest?  A.  I keep  a house  of  pros- 
titution. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  conducted  that  house?  A.  Nine  years  the  4th 
of  June. 

Q.  At  the  same  location?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  that  location?  A.  I call  it  the  sporting  circle. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  He  means  the  number  of  the  street.  A.  801 
East  Jefferson. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  been  there  nine  years;  have  you 
found  it  a good  district  for  the  business  of  prostitution?  A.  I don’t 
know. 

Q.  Has  it  ever  been  suggested  to'  you  that  there  is  another  part  of 
town  in  which  those  houses  should  be  located?  A.  No. 

Q.  Now,  madam,  did  you  state  that  the  tenderloin  was  about  to  be 
moved  to  a section  of  Springfield  just  north  of  the  railroad  tracks,  did  you 
make  that  statement?  A.  Well,  I will  tell  you  about  that:  We  were  ex- 
pecting— no  one  told  us  that  we  could  have  a district  at  all;  we  just 
suggested  that  ourselves.  We  supposed  that  they  would  give  us  a dis- 
trict, but  no  one  told  us  that. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  say  that  the  district  was  about  to  be  moved  just 
north  of  the  tracks;  did  you  make  that  assertion  to  anyone  within  the  last 
week  or  two?  A.  Well,  I may  have  said  it,  but  I don’t  remember  it. 

Q.  Did  you  state  at  that  time  that  the  politicians  had  agreed  to  give 
the  women  a regular  tenderloin  in  which  they  could  do  as  they  pleased, 
provided  they  would  get  busy  at  the  next  election  and  defeat  the  commis- 
sion form  of  government?  A.  I did  not. 

Q.  You  didn’t  make  that  statement?  A.  I did  not.'  If  I said  anything 
like  that  I never  remember  it. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  But  you  said  it,  didn’t  you?  A.  I said  so  much 
I don’t  remember  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  say  that  all  the  women  .running 
houses  of  prostitution  were  out  this  time  to  defeat  the  commission’ form  of 
government?  A.  I don’t  understand  that. 

Q.  And  did  you  say  that  you  yourself  were  going  to  give  $500,  or  had 
pledged  yourself  to  give  $500?  A.  I said  I would  help  build  a city  hall.  I 
said  I would  contribute  $500  to  help  build  that  hall. 

Q.  You  said  you  would  donate  $500  toward  the  building  of  a city  hall? 
A.  Not  city  hall;  convention  hall. 

Q.  In  case  they  moved  the  district  across  the  tracks?  A.  Well,  as 
far  as  the  district  was  going  to  be  moved,  we  just  suggested  that  ourselves, 
you  know. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you  at  your  place?  A.  Five. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  arrested?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times?  A.  In  how  long? 

Q.  In  the  last  nine  years,  since  you  have  been  in  business  down  there. 
A.  Yes,  I have  been  arrested;  I don’t  know  how  many  times. 


564  Report  op  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  And  fined  after  your  arrest?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Frequently?  A.  No,  not  very  much;  this  man  we  have  now  doesn’t 
allow  us  to  pay  a fine. 

Q.  Before  that  you  were  fined  once  in  a while?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  often?  A.  I don’t  remember,  it  has  been 
so  long  ago. 

Q.  Three  months  or  six  months?  A.  I couldn’t  remember  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  How  much  did  they  fine  you?  A.  From 
$14.00  to  $20.00. 

Q.  Did  you  always  pay  your  fine?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  own  the  house  where  you  are  located  now?  A.  I do. 

Q.  You  own  the  property?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  real  estate  and  the  house?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  No  one  else  has  an  interest  in  that  real  estate?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  in  the  house?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  the  sole  owner?  A.  I own  the  whole  thing. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  buy  it?  A.  I think  I bought  it  in  1904;  1 
am  not  positive.  I may  have  bought  it  in  1905,  I am  not  positive  about 
1904;  but  it  was  one  or  the  other  year  that  I bought  it. 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  buy  the  property?  A.  I bought  it  from  my 
landlady,  by  the  name  of  Shields. 

Q.  I want  to  ask  you — you  have  had  a good  many  years’  experience  in 
this  business,  and  maybe  you  are  interested  in  saving  girls  just  as  much  as 
other  citizens  are — what  do  you  think  makes  girls  go  wrong,  w^hat  is  the 
great  cause  of  it  all?  A.  I don’t  know',  it  is  a pretty  hard  thing  to  answer 
that,  I guess;  I don’t  know'  anything  about  anybody  but  myself;  if  you  ask 
me  about  myself,  I can  tell  you. 

Q.  All  right;  how  about  yourself?  A.  Well,  when  I was  young,  my 
folks  let  me  keep  company  I suppose  when  I was  too  j'oung,  and  I w'ent 
from  good  to  bad  and  got  in  trouble,  and  I was  ashamed  to  meet  my 
mother,  and  I left  home  on  account  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  low  wages  has  anything  to  do  with  a girl  going 
wrong?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I do. 

Q.  Have  many  of  the  girls  that  you  have  come  in  contact  with  during 
your  nine  or  ten  years  in  this  business  told  you  that  low  wages  had  some- 
thing to  do  with  their  downfall?  A.  That  is  what  they  say.  I w'as  never 
the  instigator  of  a girl  going  wrong  in  my  life;  I have  given  them  money 
to  go  home  on;  I never  forced  a girl  to  come  to  my  place  in  my  life,  and  I 
don’t  think  there  is  a girl  in  Springfield  that  would  say  that  I did  so.  I 
wouldn’t  do  that  myself.  I have  fallen  myself,  but  I don’t  believe  in  pushing 
any  body  down;  I believe  in  lifting  them  up.  Some  have  gone  beyond  re- 
demption so  they  cannot  be  helped  up. 

Q.  Is  it  your  understanding  that  most  of  the  prostitution  in  Springfield 
is  confined  to  the  segregated  district?  A.  I cannot  answer  your  question; 
I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  that  happens  in  Springfield  outside  of 
what  happens  in  your  own  place  of  business?  A.  Well,  I don’t  mix  up 
much. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  you  know  that  there  are  some  hotels  in  Spring- 
field?  A.  No,  I can  raise  my  hand,  I was  never  in  a hotel  in  Springfield. 

Q.  Is  it,  or  is  it  not,  a fact  that  you  get  some  of  j'our  girls  from  certain 
hotels?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  L from?  A.  I got  her  from  Hattie 

Smith’s,  on  Jefiferson  street. 

Q.  Is  that  a house  of  prostitution?  A.  Well,  I suppose  so,  I don’t 
know;  I never  was  in  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Yes 

Q.  Did  L ever  tell  you  that  she  worked  at  the  Victor  Hotel? 

A.  She  did  not. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


565 


Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  there  are  no  shady  hotels  in  Springfield?  A. 
As  far  as  I am  concerned,  I cannot  answer  your  question  because  I don’t 
know;  I cannot  positively  answer  the  question,  for  I was  never  around 
those  places  in  my  life  since  I kept  house. 

Q.  With  whom  have  you  talked  regarding  the  testimony  to  be  given 
before  this  Committee?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  any  other  women  in  your  kind  of  business 
regarding  what  you  would  say  and  what  they  would  say  before  this  Com- 
mittee? A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  any  men?  A.  Not  as  I know  of;  I haven’t 
seen  anybody  today. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD;  Do  you  pay  anything  to  the  police  for  pro- 
tection? A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  have?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  don’t  bother  you?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  do  they  do  if  there  is  a fight  there?  A.  Well,  I have  had 
a house  there  nine  years  and  I never  had  a fight  in  it.  I take  care  of  my 
place.  I don’t  allow  anybody  in  that  is  unruly  or  anything  like  that. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  have  a government  license  for  the  sale  of 
I liquor?  A.  Yes. 

' Q.  Do  you  pay  any  license  to  the  city  of  Springfield  for  the  privilege 
of  selling  liquor?  A.  No. 

Q.  Why?  A.  They  don’t  ask  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  authorities  know  that  you  are  selling  liquor 
without  a license?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Is  there  any  reason  you  know  of  why  you  should  be  privileged  to 
sell  liquor  in  your  institution  when  men  have  to  pay  from  $500  to  $1,000  to 
the  city  for  the  same  privilege?  Let  me  repeat  my  question:  Do  you 
understand  any  reason;  is  there  any  reason  why  you  should  be  permitted 
to  sell  liquor  without  any  charge  at  all,  in  the  city  of  Springfield,  when  men 
are  paying  in  the  city  of  Springfield  from  $500  to  $1,000^ — I don’t  know  what 
the  figure  is  here,  but  I expect  it  is  either  one  of  the  two  figures — do  you 
know  of  any  reason  for  it?  A.  No,  I do  not;  I cannot  answer  it. 

Q.  You  simply  do  not  pay  a city  license?  A.  What  do  you  mean  by 
a city  license? 

Q.  For  the  sale  of  liquor.  A.  No. 

Q.  You  told  me  just  a moment  ago  that  you  did  pay  for  a government 
I license.  A.  A government  license  is  $20.00. 

Q.  Twenty  dollars?  A.  A year;  yes. 

Q.  If  anyone  would  take  the  trouble  to  find  out,  they  could  ascertain 
that  there  is  a government  license  issued  to  you,  is  that  right?  The  city 
authorities  could  learn,  if  they  wished  to  learn,  that  you  are  paying  $20.00 
annually  to  the  government  for  the  privilege  of  selling  liquor;  is  that  cor- 
rect? A.  I don’t  sell  any  liquor. 

Q.  Well,  what  do  you  sell?  A.  I sell  soft  drinks;  near-beer. 

Q.  Well,  you  wouldn’t  have  to  pay  the  United  States_  government 
, $20.00  for  selling  near-beer,  would  you?  A.  No;  but  we  keep  it;  the  reason 
I got  it  is  on  account  of  argument  or  trouble,  you  know. 

Q.  Well,  now,  how  near  to  beer  is  it?  A,  Well,  it  is  near-beer;  it  is 

I what  they  call  fizz. 

Q.  What?  A.  What  they  call  fizz. 

Q.  Well,  isn’t  it  a fact  that  it  is  just  about  as  much  beer  as  you  can  get 
anywhere?  A.  I don’t  think  any  one  can  get  drunk  on  it. 

Q.  What  do  you  charge  a bottle  for  it?  A.  I charge  50  cents. 


566 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  charge  50  cents  a bottle?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  mean  to  say  it  is  only  fizz?  A.  That  is  what  I buy  it 
for,  .that  is  fizz. 

Q.  You  buy  it  for  fizz?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  I want  to  get  at  is  this:  You  are  paying  $20.00  a year  for  a 
government  license,  and  you  are  paying  no  license  at  all  to  the  city  of 
Springfield;  you  have  no  liquor  license  in  the  city  of  Springfield,  have  you? 
A.  No.  . 

Q.  Well,  you  sell  liquors,  don’t  you?  I want  to  remind  you  of  the 
fact  that  you  are  under  oath.  Now,  do  you  sell  beer,  or  don’t  you  sell  beer? 
A.  Well,  I sell  drinks,  but  I don’t  sell  any  whiskey. 

Q.  Don’t  let  us  quibble  about  it.  Do  you  or  do  you  not  sell  beer,  and 
I want  to  remind  you  that  when  I am  asking  the  question  you  are  under 
oath.  Do  you  or  do  you  not?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know;  I don’t  drink  it. 

Q.  You  dont’  drink  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  drank  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  buy  it?  A.  I buy  it  over  to — 

Q.  You  don’t  buy  it  in  a church,  I suppose;  you  get  it  in  a brewery, 
don’t  you?  A.  Yes,  in  a brewery. 

Q.  Now,  whose  brewery  do  you  get  it  in?  A.  Hansen’s. 

Q.  Hansen’s  brewery?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  make  and  manufacture  any  other  kind  of  beer,  the  good 
old  beer  the  way  that  everybody  knows  it?  A.  I cannot  answer  that. 

Q.  You  cannot  answer,  don’t  choose  to  answer,  or  don’t  care  to  an- 
swer? A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Now,  let  me  ask  you  one  additional  question:  Do  you  pay  anything 
indirectly  to  anybody  in  Springfield  for  the  privilege  of  selling  this  beer,  or 
near-beer,  as  you  call  it?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  are  positively  sure  you  don’t  know?  A.  I don’t  know;  I do 
not  pay  anybody  a nickel. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  C.  W.  Venable’s  Testimony. 

MR.  AND  MRS.  C.  W.  VENABLE  w'ere  called  as  witnesses,  and  having 
been  first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  (addressing  Mr.  Venable):  What  is  your 
name?  A.  C-  W.  Venable. 

Q.  (addressing  Mrs.  Venable):  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  C.  W. 
Venable. 

Q.  Are  you  man  and  wife?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  business  are  you  engaged  in?  A.  Hotel  business. 

' Q.  What  hotel?  A.  Victor  Hotel. 

0.  Where  is  that  hotel  located?  A.  31114  East  Adams  street. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection  with  the  hotel?  A.  Well,  I run  the  place. 

Q.  You  own  it?  A.  I am  the  proprietor. 

Q.  How  are  you  connected  with  the  hotel  (addressing  Mrs.  Venable)? 
A.  Well,  just  I am  his  wife. 

Q.  Have  you  any  particular  duties  in  connection  with  that  hotel?  A. 
Nothing  only  just  take  care  of  the  hotel. 

Q.  You  run  it  together?  A.  \ es. 

MR.  VENABLE:  She  looks  after  the  rooms,  and  I look  after  the 
running  of  it.  She  sees  that  the  rooms  are  kept  clean  and  that  there  is 

proper  linen  there,-  and  that  is  about  all  she  sees  to. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  have  you  in  the  hotel?  A.  Thirty-four. 

Q.  What  13  the  lowest  amount  that  you  charge  for  one  of  those  rooms? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


567 


A.  Well,  different  prices;  all  the  way  from  $5.00  a week  to  $2.00  a week. 
We  have  got  suites  of  housekeeping  rooms;  that  is,  for  cooking,  for  light 
housekeeping. 

Q.  You  have  some  rooms  that  you  rent  out  to  people  by  the  day?  A. 
Yes;  have  three  or  four  rooms  on  the  first  floor. 

Q.  Have  you  any  girls,  single  girls,  living  in  that  hotel?  A.  None, 
only  that  are  working  for  us. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  girls  living  in  that  hotel?  A.  Oh,  numbers 
of  times  people  come  to  stay  a week  or  two  and  go  away;  rent  a room  by 
the  week  and  then  go,  and  somebody  else  comes  along.  You  know  how  it 
is  in  the  transient  business. 

Q.  Suppose  a girl  comes  there  and  asks  for  a room,  there  is  no  reason 
why  she  shouldn’t  have  a room,  is  there?  A.  Not  a bit  in  the  world. 

Q.  Is  she  permitted  to  receive  gentleman  visitors  in  her  room?  A. 
No,  sir,  not  unless  they  register  as  man  and  wife. 

Q.  And  you  never  have  informed  any  girl  applying  for  a room  there 
that  she  could  have  all  the  gentleman  friends  in  the  room  that  she  wanted, 
but  that  she  would  have  to  pay  you  extra  for  it,  for  every  one  that  would 
come  to  her  room?  A.  No,  sir;  I never  did. 

Q.  You  never  said  that  to  any  girl?  A.  No,  sir;  I never  did,  and  I 
know  the  girl  you  refer  to.  She  was  there  three  days  ago. 

Q.  Oh,  you  know  the  girl  I refer  to?  A.  Yes,  I think  I do. 

Q.  All  right;  go  on  and  tell  us  about  it.  A.  Well,  she  says,  “Have 
you  got  rooms  here  to  rent?”  and  I says,  “Yes,  ma’am.”  I says,  “About 
how  long  do  you  want  a room  for?”  and  she  says  “Possibly  two  or  three 
days,”  and  she  says,  “If  I get  work  I will  be  here  longer,  and  then  I will 
' want  one  by  the  week,”  and  I says,  “I  haven’t  anything  now  that  I can  rent 
you  by  the  week;  possibly  by  the  time  you  get  located  I will  have  some- 
thing”; and  I showed  her  a room  on  the  top  floor  for  $2.50  a week.  She 
said  she  didn’t  want  to  be  that  high  up,  she  said  she  wanted  to  be  on  a 
II  lower  floor,  so  I took  her  down  to  the  next  floor,  and  she  said  she  didn’t 
want  to  be  there.  She  says,  “You  rent  rooms  down  there  on  the  first 
floor,  don’t  you?”  and  I had  three  rooms  on  the  next  floor,  and  I says, 
“Yes,  I rent  those,  but  I charge  more.”  She'  says,  “How  much  do  you 
charge  for  those  rooms?”  and  I said  I charged  $1.00  a day.  She  says, 
“Does  that  mean  for  one  or  two?”  and  I says,  “It  is  just  the  same  for  one 
or  two,”  and  she  says,  “I  will  take  this  room,”  and  she  registered,  and  I 
. took  her  $1.00,  and  she  stayed  over  night,  and  she  went  out  the  next  day 
1 and  she  said  she  didn’t  know  whether  she  would  be  back  or  not.  She  said 
she  was  looking  for  work,  and  I told  her  I didn’t  have  any  work  for  her 
We  had  plenty  of  girls.  So  that  is  about  all  that  was  said.  I was  in  the 
1 office  writing  a letter,  in  the  parlor,  and  she  came  to  the  door  and  asked 
' me  if  there  was  anyone  rooming  in  the  house  that  took  her  meals  out. 
I says,  “Yes,  there  is  one.” 

' Q.  She  wanted  to  know  if  there  were  any  girls  in  the  house  that  took 

their  meals  out?  A.  Yes;  takes  her  meals  out. 

Q.  There  is  one  girl  that  does  take  her  meals  out?  A.  Yes,  takes 
her  meals  out  while  she  is  in  the  city. 

Q.  Then  you  have  at  least  one  girl  rooming  at  your  place?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  a few  moments  ago  you  made  the  statement  to  the  Committee 
that  there  were  no  girls  rooming  there?  A.  We  have  lady  roomers.  She 
is  having  some  dental  work  done.  She  comes  from  a little  town  over  here, 
and  she  is  here  a week  today,  and  she  is  having  some  sewing  done  also. 

; Q.  Let’s  get  down  to  it:  How  many  girls  have  you  living  at  your 

place  now?  A.  Well,  just  got  them  three.  I have  lots  of  married  folks 
living  there  with  families. 

Q.  Yes,  but  the  girls,  who  haven’t  any  families  with^them?  A.  Two 
is  all.  _ 

Q.  (to  Mrs.  Venable):  Madam,  you  know  those  two  girls  staying  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


568  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  You  have  known  other  girls  that  stayed  there  at  different  times; 
A.  Oh,  lots  of  girls. 

Q.  Of  course,  they  come  and  talk  with  you?  A.  Well,  not  any  more 
than  is  necessary. 

Q.  You  give  them  advice,  sometimes?  A.  Well,  not  any  more  than  I 
would  to  a man  if  he  wanted  advice. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  ever  tell  any  girl  that  she  had  better  do  some  light 
work  during  the  daytime?  A.  I did  not. 

Q.  You  never  said  that  working  in  the  daytime  would  furnish  a good 
alibi  in  case  the  girl  got  arrested?  A.  I should  say  not. 

Q.  You  never  warned  any  girl  of  certain  plain-clothesmen?  A.  I told 
her  that  she  could  not  do  anything  here. 

Q.  You  never  said  to  any  girl  that  if  she  brought  a man  to  the  Victor 
that  she  should  get  him  to  register  and  that  you  would  assign  them  to  an- 
other room  so  that  you  would  make  double,  the  hotel  would  make  double? 
A.  I said  you  could  not  take  anyone  to  your  room. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a hotel  known  as  the  Cliff  House?  A.  Yes;  and 
referred  the  girl  to  go  there  to  get  work. 

Q.  Is  the  Cliff  House  a pretty  good  place?  A.  Well,  I never  worked 
there  myself. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  people  who  run  it?  A.  I just  know  her,  never 
saw  her  but  once,  and  she  asked  me  if  I knew  if  there  were  any  girls  ever 
came  to  the  hotel.  She  telephoned  to  the  house  and  said  if  there  was  a 
girl  came  there  looking  for  employment  she  would  like  to  have  me  send 
her  over. 

Q.  That  is,  the  woman  at  the  Cliff  House  telephoned  over  to  the 
Victor?  A.  Why,  yes. 

Q.  And  her  definition  of  work  now,  madam,  didn’t  include  hustling  on 
the  street?  A.  It  did  not. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  have  a government  license  at  the  Victor 
Hotel?  A.  I have  not;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  (addressing  Mr.  Venable):  Have  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  near-beer  over  there?  A.  I haven’t  anything  to 
drink  over  there,  only  water.  If  I had  anything  it  would  be  beer,  it  wouldn’t 
be  near-beer.  I never  sold  a drink  of  anything  since  I have  been  in  the 
house,  and  I don’t  allow  a drink  in  the  house  if  I know  it.  If  anyone  comes 
there  intoxicated,  they  don’t  get  a room  there. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  know  a girl  named  T ? A. 

Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  she  live  at  your  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a girl  named  J ? A.  \ es,  sir. 

Q.  She  lives  at  your  place;  they  work  for  you?  A.  T doesn’t 

v/ork  for  me;  J does. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  working  in  your  place?  A.  I have  two  girls 
employed. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  their  employment?  A.  Not  any  more  than 
any  other  hotel;  just  general  work.  I usually  do  the  cooking;  they  make  the 
beds  and  wash  and  sweep  and  brush. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  employed  more  than  two  girls?  A.  No,  we  never 
have. 

Q.  How  long  has  T been  with  you?  A.  A week  today. 

Q.  How  long  has  J been  with  you?  A.  I don’t  know  just 

how  long;  she  has  been  here  quite  a while. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


569 


Q.  Do  you  require  every  couple  when  they  come  in,  to  register?  A.  I 
. certainly  do. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  don’t  allow  couples  rooms  without 
baggage?  A.  No — oh,  without  baggage?  Oh,  well,  we  couldn’t  require 
everyone  to  have  baggage.  Sometimes  you  yourself  are  in  town  without 
baggage. 

Q.  I mean  couples.  A.  If  they  register  as  man  and  wife. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  is  the  greatest  number  of  times  in  twenty- 
four  hours  that  you  ever  rented  one  room?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you. 

Q.  Well,  what  would  you  estimate  it  at?  A.  One  room? 

Q.  One  room;  how  many  tenants,  different  tenants,  have  been  in  one 
room  of  your  institution  in  twenty-four  hours?  A.  Well,  now,  I couldn’t 
tell  you. 

Q.  One?  A.  Well,  it  ought  to  be. 

Q.  Two?  A.  Well,  I cannot  remember. 

Q.  Well,  can  you  remember  any  case?  A.  No,  I couldn’t. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  have  you  got?  A.  We  have  thirty-four. 

Q.  How  many  visitors  would  you  say  was  the  highest  number  in  the 
twenty-four  hours  in  the  thirty-four  rooms?  A.  I could  not  say. 

Q.  Well,  would  you  have  two  in  twenty-four  hours;  I mean,  would  one 
room  be  occupied  twice  in  twenty-four  hours?  A.  I couldn’t  say. 

Q.  Now,  madam,  it  isn’t  a question  of  what  you  can  say,  A.  Well,  I 
don’t  remember. 

O.  Now,  you  have  had  more  than  one  couple  in  one  room  in  one  night? 
A.  Well,  now,  I couldn’t  say. 

Q.  Do  you  think  your  husband  would  know?  A.  I cannot  answer 

that. 

MR.  VENABLE:  I can  answer  that  for  you.  Sometimes  in  twenty-four 
hours  we  will  have  as  many  as  two  couple  in  one  room;  lots  of  times  there 
will  be  people  who  come  there  and  register  and  say  they  want  to  get  a train, 
and  they  would  just  stay  for  a little  while  and  possibly  we  would  rent  the 
room  before  morning  again. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  is  the  greatest  number  of  occupants  of  any 
one  room  at  any  one  time  in  twenty-four  hours?  A.  Not  over  two. 

Q.  I will  be  perfectly  frank  with  you:  I am  trying  to  find  out  the  kind 
of  hotel  you  are  running.  A.  I am  running  as  near  a rooming  house  as  I 
can  run,  and  a respectable  one. 

0-  I want  to  assure  you  that  I would  be  the  last  person  on  earth  to 
give  the  hotel  a bad  name,  and  I think  it  would  be  well  for  you  to  come  up 
here  and  leave  a good  name  for  the  hotel,  and  if  any  one  has  wronged  the 
place  I would  be  the  first  one  to  come  down  and  apologize,  A.  When  I 
took  the  place  it  had  a bad  name.  I never  was  in  the  hotel  business  before, 
and  I was  looking  for  an  investment,  and  I saw  this  hotel  advertised,  and  I 
had  some  money  laid  up  and  I borrowed  some  money  and  I got  rid  of  all 
the  questionable  people  that  were  in  there. 

O.  Do  you  pay  any  girls  any  commission  for  the  sale  of  any  drinks? 
A.  We  don’t  sell  any  drinks. 

Q.  That  doesn’t  exist  there?  A.  No.  I don’t  sell  any  drinks.  There 
is’nt  a drop  in  the  house  now,  and  hasn’t  been. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Grace  Clybourn’s  Testimony. 

GRACE  CLYBOLTRN,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
testified  as  follows: 


570  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  Grace  Clybourn. 

Q.  How  old  are  you,  Miss  Clybourn?  A.  Twenty-six  years  old. 

Q.  Do  you  know  such  a hotel  as  the  Victor  House?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  stop  at  that  hotel?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Where  is  the  hotel  located,  on  what  street?  A.  311^2  Adams 
street. 

Q.  What  is  the  proprietor’s  name?  'A.  klr.  Venable,  Mr.  C.  W.  Ven- 
able. 

Q.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Venable  when  you  see  him?  A.  I met  him  at 
the  hotel,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  What  occasion  did  you  meet  him?  A.  When  I went  and 
registered  for  a room. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  Last  Monday  morning. 

Q.  He  gave  you  a room  after  registering?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  enter  into  conversation  with  him?  A.  I did. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  him?  A.  Why,  he  show’ed  me  the  rooms,  one 
room,  and  the  one  that  I wanted  was  a room  on  the  first  floor,  and  he  told 
me  that  I was  allowed  the  privilege  of  having  company  in  the  room,  but  that 
each  man  that  was  there  would  have  to  register  and  pay  extra  for  the  room; 
that  wasn’t  included  in  my  having  the  room. 

Q.  They  were  going  to  charge  you  if  you  desired  to  take  men  to  your 
room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  each  man  was  to  pay  the  hotel  so  much  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  to  register?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  addition  to  that,  you  were  pa3-ing  rent  on  that  room?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  money  were  you  to  pajC  .A.  One  dollar  a da3-. 

Q.  What  else  did  Mr.  Venable  say  to  3'ou?  A.  Well,  he  warned  me 

if  I met  men  on  the  street  to  be  careful  that  the3'  weren’t  plain-clothesmen. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  else?  A.  No,  I think  not.  I don’t  think  so. 
I didn’t  have  much  talk  with  him  that  time. 

Q.  Then  you  got  a room  there,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  number  of  that  room?  A.  Number  six. 

Q.  On  what  floor?  A.  Well,  the  hotel — the  office  is  on  the  second 
floor,  and  my  room  was  on  the  office  floor. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  in  the  room?  A.  Well,  I registered 
there  Monday  morning,  and  I left  there  kIonda3^  evening  about  6 o’clock  or 
a little  later.  I was  in  and  out  of  the  room. 

Q.  Did  you  have  dinner  at  the  hotel?  A.  I did  not;  I don’t  think 
they  have  a restaurant  in  connection  with  it. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  any  women  there?  A.  I did.  I met  Mrs.  Venable. 

Q.  How  did  3'Ou  know  that  she  was  Mrs.  Venable?  A.  She  told  me 
she  was;  she  came  in  after  I had  talked  to  Mr.  Venable,  and  she  said  that 
she  had  talked  to  her  husband,  and  I asked  if  her  husband  was  kir.  Venable 
and  she  said  he  was. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  Mrs.  Venable?  .A..  Wh3',  she  came  in  the 

room.  She  said  she  had  talked  with  her  husband,  her  husband  had  talked  to 
her  about  me  and  she  had  taken  an  interest  in  me,  and  she  advised  me  to  get 
work.  She  said  that  if  you  didn’t  have  work  3mu  couldn’t  live  in  Springfield, 
and  that  if  3^ou  did  light  work  of  some  kind  then  the  police  wouldn’t  bother 
you,  but  that  if  you  didn’t  have  work,  that  the  police  would  get  3'Ou;  they 
would  send  you  to  jail  or  give  you  a few  hours  to  leave  town. 

Q.  Get  you  for  what,  madam?  A.  Talking  to  men  on  the  street,  and 
taking  them  up  to  the  rooms. 

Q.  Did  she  say  anything  else  to  \’ou  at  that  time?  A.  Well,  she  also 
warned  me  of  the  plain-clothesmen,  told  me  to  be  careful,  and  I asked  her  if 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


571 


you  couldn’t  tell  the  plain-clothesmen,  and  she  said  that  she  had  been  in 
Springfield  for  three  years  and  she  didn’t  know  them  all. 

Q.  Did  she  say  that  she  did  know  any  plain-clothesmen?  A.  Well, 
she  didn’t  say  any  number  that  she  knew,  but  she  led  me  to  believe  that  she 
did.  ai  I 

Q.  How  did  'she  lead  you  to  that  belief?  A.  Well,  by  saying  that  she 
had  lived  in  Springfield  all  her  life  and  that  she  didn’t  know  them  all,  as 
much  as  to  say  that  she  knew  some. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  meet  any  other  girls  there,  or  any  other  women?  A. 
I met  L , a girl  that  works  there. 

Q.  What  does  she  do?  A.  Well,  she  does  chamber  work.  When  I 
went  to  the  hotel,  she  was  sweeping  up  the  office.  She  works  there,  and  I 
understand  entertains  men  that  come  there. 

Q.  Now,  about  how  old  a girl  is  she?  A.  Well,  I should  think  she  is 
a girl  about  my  own  age. 

Q.  Is  she  what  you  would  call  a good-looking  girl?  A.  A very  sweet- 
faced girl,  not  particularly  beautiful,  but  a sweet  face.  I think  she  has  a 
child.  They  showed  me  a picture  on  the  wall  of  her  room,  and  said  it  was 
her  child,  her  baby. 

Q.  Is  her  husband  living  with  her?  A.  I don’t  think  so;  I didn’t  hear 
her  husband’s  name  mentioned.  I talked  with  her,  talked  about  her  sweet- 
heart and  her  baby,  but  she  didn’t  talk  to  me  about  a husband. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  any  other  women  or  girls  there?  A.  Monday  even- 
ing I asked  Mr.  Venable  if  there  was  any  girl  in  the  hotel  that  would  go  t6 
dinner,  and  he  sent  me  up  to  room  No.  30,  I think  on  the  third  floor.  Room 

30  is  on  the  third  floor,  and  he  told  me  to  ask  for  J . — J 

W , I think  is  the  name,  and  she  went  to  dinner  with  me,  went  to  the 

Illinois  for  dinner,  and  I talked  with  her. 

Q.  What  did  this  girl  say  to  you?  A.  Yes,  she  talked  a great  deal  to 
me  and  at  first  she  acted  kind  of  shy  about  talking  to  me,  I being  a stranger 
to  her,  and  then  she  afterwards  talked  a great  deal  to  me,  and  every  place 
we  went  in,  a few  places,  she  seemed  to  know  everyone  in  the  place.  When 
vve  went  to  the  Illinois  she  knew  the  entertainers  there  and  one  or  two  of 
the  colored  waiters  spoke  to  her  when  we  went  down  the  stairs. 

Q.  She  was  pretty  well  known?  A.  Yes,  sir;  she  introduced  me  to 
two  or  three  different  entertainers,  at  different  places. 

Q.  Did  she  say  anything  to  you  concerning  her  life  at  the  Victor 
Hotel?  A.  Well,  she  told  me  she  had  friends  come  to  the  Victor  Hotel 
that  went  to  her  room. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Male  friends?  A.  Male  friends,  and  also  lady 
friends,  and  she  told  me  of  one  or  two  different  people,  friends  of  hers,  that 
stayed  there  all  night,  and  she  told  me  about  friends  she  had  that  were 
detectives. 

Q.  What  did  she  say  about  the  detectives?  A.  Well,  she  told  about 
going  out  and  having  good  times  with  them,  and  she  told  me  about — she 
didn’t  mention  any  names,  any  detectives’  names — but  she  told  me  about 
one  instance  of  a detective  coming  here  from  Milwaukee  to  get  a prisoner 
to  take  back,  and  that  he  knew  detectives  here  that  were  friends  of  his, 
and  he  went  and  met  them  and  had  girls  in  the  party,  I don’t  know  how 

many — J ^ was  one  of  the  party,  and  they  went  out  and  became  so 

intoxicated  that  the  Milwaukee  detective  couldn’t  take  his  prisoner  back  to 
Milwaukee  that  night. 

Q.  That  is,  they  were  out  with  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  prisoner  didn’t  go  back  to  Milwaukee?  A.  Not  that 
night. 

Q.  Did  she  say  anything  further?  A.  She  said  that  a friend  of  hers 

by  the  name  of  T , that  lived  at  the  hotel,  and  her  were  thinking 

of  getting  a flat  in  the  city  in  a week  or  two,  and  I asked  if  you  had  to 
have  protection,  and  she  said  they  would  be  protected  because  they  knew 
all  the  detectives.  She  told  me  that  when  the  detectives  were  going  to 
raid  places  that  the  detective  would  call  her  up  and  tell  her  not  to  go  to 


572  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


those  places  because  they  were  going  to  be  raided  that  night,  to  protect 
her  from  being  raided,  and  that  they  were  not  to  go  there. 

Q.  Did  she  say  the  Victor  Hotel  had  ever  been  raided?  A.  No;  she 
told  me  the  Victor  hadn’t  been  raided.  She  told  me  she  had  lived  there 
for  three  years,  and  that  it  hadn’t  been  raided  because  the  Victor  was  on 
a quiet  street.  But  she  did  tell  me  that  she  thought  that  the  people  who 
ran  the  Victor  ran  it  a little  bit  straighter  than  some  of  the  other  places. 
That  is  what  she  told  me. 

Q.  Did  L tell  you  something  of  her  story?  A.  She  told  me 

she  was  nineteen  years  old  two  weeks  ago  and  that  she  lived  at  the  Victor 
for  three  years,  or  nearly  three  years,  and  she  said  she  came  from  Detroit, 
and  that  she  had  been  running  around  Springfield  for  three  years.  She 
told  me  about  trips  that  she  had  taken,  one  trip  to  Atlantic  City,  and  one 
four  weeks  ago  to  Chicago.  She  said  she  stopped  at  the  Palmer  House. 

Q.  What  about  that  trip  to  Chicago?  A.  Well,  she  told  me  that  was 
about  four  weeks  ago;  she  went  to  Chicago  and  stopped  at  the  Palmer 
House,  and  she  told  me  that  some  man  from  Springfield  took  her  to 
Chicago,  and  she  told  me  how  she  spent  her  time  going  to  theatres  and 
looking  around  the  stores. 

Q.  Did  she  give  you  the  name  of  that  man?  A.  No,  she  did  not. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  you  discuss  in  the  presence  of  Mrs.  Venable 
the  conditions  upon  which  you  had  rented  the  room  over  there?  A.  Why, 
her  husband  told  me  that  I could  bring  men  to  the  room,  and  I told  her 
that  her  husband  gave  me  to  understand  that  I could  have  company  in  my 
room,  and  she  advised  me  not  to  bring  them  to  my  room,  to  have  them 
come  and  register,  and  be  assigned  to  another  room,  a room  that  didn’t 
have  my  clothes  in  it. 

Q.  Well,  then,  you  did  discuss  with  Mrs.  Venable  the  condition  upon 
which  her  rooms  were  rented?  A.  Yes,  I did. 

Q.  So  you  now  say  that  Mrs.  Venable  was  aware  of  the  terms  and 
conditions  upon  which  you  rented  the  room?  A.  I do. 

Q.  You  state  that?  A.  I do,  because  I talked  with  Mrs.  Venable 
and  told  her  that  her  husband  gave  me  the  privilege  of  using  the  room, 
and  she  advised  me  not  to  use  that  room,  but  to  have  the  people  register 
and  be  assigned  to  another  room. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  she  say  why?  A.  She  said  that  on 
account  of  my  clothes  being  in  the  room,  and  that  they  wouldn’t  have  to 
know  that  I lived  in  the  hotel.  They  asked  me  if  I knew  anj'  people  in 
Springfield,  and  I said  I didn’t  unless  from  the  telephone  book  I could 
find  someone  that  I knew  that  way,  and  they  understood  or  thought  that 
anyone  I would  bring  there  would  be  strangers  to  me.  That  was  why  they 
warned  me  about  the  detectives. 

Q.  Where  is  your  home?  A.  Chicago. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Then  you  did  discuss,  both  with  ilr.  and  kirs. 
Venable,  the  conditions  of  the  renting  of  the  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  maintain  that  both  man  and  wife  knew  all  about  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  Mrs.  Venable  arranged  for  the  additional  rooms  and  an 
additional  price?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  knew  about  it  as  well  as  her  husband?  A.  Yes,  sir;  they 
told  me  what  would  be  the  price  of  the  room  when  people  registered  there. 

Q.  For  the  additional  people?  A.  Yes;  but  I supposed  they  would 
charge  the  same  as  if  anyone  else  had  registered  there. 

Q.  But  they  did  tell  you  that  an  additional  charge  would  be  made? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  any  liquor  sold  over  there?  A.  I didn’t  see  any,  and 
J told  me,  no. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  any  commission  being  paid  for  the  sale  of  it? 
A.  No;  I don’t  think  they  have  liquor  there  at  all. 

(Witness  temporarily  excused.) 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


573 


J M ’s  Testimony. 

J M was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  been  first 

duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  J 

M . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-two  years  old. 

Q.  Where  are  you  living  now?  A.  I am  living  at  the  Victor  Hotel. 

Q.  Where  is  that  hotel  located?  A.  311^  East  Adams  Street. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  name  of  the  owner  and  proprietor?  A.  Mr.  and 
Mrs.  C.  W.  Venable. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  young  woman  who  was  just  on  the  stand?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  her?  A.  Why,  she  came  up  to  the 
hotel  Monday  afternoon — Monday  or  Tuesday. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  lunch  with  her  that  evening?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  quite  a talk  with  her?  A.  Why,  we  talked. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  something  of  your  life?  A.  Why,  I told  her  some- 
thing; I didn’t  tell  her  all. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  her  anything  about  your  life  at  the  Victor  Hotel?  A. 
No,  sir;  I told  her,  but  I didn’t  tell  her  all. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  her  that  you  entertained  men  at  the  Victor  Hotel? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  her  anything  about  a trip  to  Chicago?  A.  Why,  I 
told  her  about  going  to  Chicago  and  stopping  at  the  Palmer  House  in 
Chicago  with  a lady  friend  of  mine  from  Memphis,  Tenn. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  arrangements  have  you  made  over  there 
for  the  payment  of  your  room?  A.  I came  here  with  the  intention  of 
getting  employment  downtown,  and  I put  an  application  in  each  of  the 
department  stores  downtown,  and  when  I came  here  I had  some  money 
that  I worked  in  Detroit  for. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  at  the  Victor,  about?  A.  I have  been 
there  about  four  months. 

Q.  As  a guest?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  the  daily  or  weekly  charge  for  that  room?  A. 
Well,  they  charge  me  $3.00  a week. 

Q.  Now,  what  other  arrangement  is  made  for  any  connecting  rooms, 
or  the  use  of  any  other  rooms?  A.  Well,  I only  use  the  back  room,  and 
I sleep  with  the  lady  that  works  there,  she  and  I sleep  together. 

Q.  What  is  your  employment  in  the  city?  A.  Well,  I worked  in  the 
millinery  department,  but  I haven’t  been  able  to  get  a position. 

Q.  You  haven’t  worked  at  that  in  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  have  earned  some  money  in  Springfield,  haven’t  you? 
A.  What  I got  up  to  the  hotel  there. 

Q.  You  worked  in  the  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  arrangement  between  you  and  the  proprietor  of 
that  hotel  for  any  privilege  whereby  you  might  bring  visitors  to  the  hotel? 
A.  No,  sir;  I never  have  company  up  there.  I have  had  in  the  parlor 
there,  I have  had  gentlemen  friends. 

Q.  What  do  you  earn  a week  on  an  average?  A.  You  mean  in  the 
millinery  department?  They  pay  there  $3.00  a week. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  for  your  room  over  there,  on  an  average? 
A.  Well,  I don’t  pay  anything  when  I work  for  them. 


574  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  pay  for  the  room  practically  with  your  services  there?  A. 

Well,  if  I had  a position  there  I would  pay  for  the  room.  I paid  for  it 

when  I first  came  here. 

Q.  Now,  you  haven’t  any  position?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  to  owe  for  the  room?  A.  No,  I work  there  and  I 

don’t  have  to  pay  for  the  room;  they  rent  my  room  out. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  plain-clothesmen,  detectives?  A.  Wh3'’,  I know 
several  of  them. 

Q.  Did  you  discuss  the  case  of  the  detective  who  came  down  from 
Milwaukee?  A.  Why,  I met  him  through  a friend  here,  a gentleman 
friend. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  party  that  entertained  the  detective  that 
night?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Had  you  been  a member  of  other  parties?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  one?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  work  do  you  do  at  that  hotel?  A.  Wh^’-,  I help 
at  most  anything;  I help  make  the  beds  and  sweep. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a day  do  you  work  at  makine  beds?  A.  Well. 
I usually  eet  up  about  9 o’clock;  we  have  our  breakfast  at  9 o’clock  and 
lunch  at  12:30  o’clock,  and  sometimes  we  don’t  have  an\^  supper,  just  a 
cold  lunch,  and  sometimes  us  girls  go  out  for  just  the  evening. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  there?  A.  L and  T . 

Q.  What  does  T do?  A.  Wh}^  she  is  just  up  there  visiting. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  T ? A.  I have  known  her,  I 

guess,  a year  or  two. 

Q.  Been  up  here  visiting  a j^ear  or  two?  A.  Oh,  no;  she  has  only 
been  here  a week. 

Q.  What  did  anyone  tell  you  to  tell  this  Committee  before  3'ou  came 
up  here?  A.  Why,  nobody  told  me  anything. 

Q.  You  do  the  work  of  a chambermaid  over  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0-  When  the  guests  depart  would  30U  be  one  that  would  put  the  room 
in  order  again?  A.  Well,  onh'  in  the  mornings;  that  is  the  onh-  time  that  I 
clean  up  the  rooms. 

Q.  Who  would  put  the  rooms  in  order  after  the  departure  of  the  guests 
any  time  within  twenty-four  hours?  A.  Why,  myself  and  L . 

Q,  Now,  the  particular  floor,  if  there  is  any  such  arrangement  over  there, 
that  you  have  charge  of,  would  you  have  charge  of  a given  number  of  rooms 
to  put  in  order  after  the  departing  of  guests?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  would  be  the  girl  that  would  have  that  matter  in  charge?  A. 
We  never  had  annulling  to  do  with  the  rooms  after  3 o’clock,  or  something  like 
that. 

Q.  Who  had  to  do  that,  if  you  know?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Then,  who  would  take  charge  of  that?  If  a guest  left  about  3 o’clock 
in  the  afternoon  and  the  room  was  vacated,  and  other  guests  were  expected, 
who  would  take  charge  of  the  room,  who  would  clean  the  room  and  prepare 
it  for  the  next  guest?  A.  Y’hy.  there  is  nobody  in  particular  who  has  that 
work  to  do.  The  room  is  used  in  the  night  time. 

Q.  I understand  the  room  is  used  in  the  night  time;  but  if  the  guests 
departed,  who  would  take  charge  of  the  preparation  of  the  room  for  the  next 
guest?  Did  you  ever  perform  that  work?  .\.  I have  in  the  morning  cleaned 
up  the  room^. 

Q.  Now,  a guest  leaves  the  room,  and  the  room  is  disturbed,  and  other 
guests  are  expected;  who  would  put  the  room  in  order  for  the  next  guest?  A. 
T would  if  I was  over  there. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  done  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  is  all.  That  is  a much  more  orderly  place  than 
we  thought  it  was. 

(Witness  temporarily  excused.) 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


575 


H S ’s  Testimony. 

H S was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  been  first  duly 

sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  H S . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty-four,  next  August. 

Q.  You  live  at  home?  A.  Yes,  sir;  at  my  mother’s,  in  , Illinois. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  Springfield?  A.  Just  a week.  I have 
been  doing  some  sewing.  Having  some  sewing  and  some  dental  work  done. 

Q.  Where  have  you  been  stopping?  A.  At  the  Victor  Hotel. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  first  stop  at  that  hotel?  A.  A long  while  ago; 
about  four  years  ago. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Venable  own  the  hotel  at  that  time?  A.  No;  Mrs.  Clark 
owned  it  at  that  time. 

Q.  Has  the  hotel  in  four  years  changed  much?  A.  No,  sir;  just  the 
proprietors.  1 mean  it  is  run  altogether  ditterent  than  what  it  was. 

Q.  Was  it  a bad  hotel  four  years  ago?  A.  No;  it  wasn’t  bad. 

Q.  Well,- was  it  a decent  hotel?  A.  I didn’t  know  much  about  it  then. 

Q.  You  stopped  there  then?  A.  I lived  there  with  my  husband.  We 
are  separated  now. 

Q.  Your  mother  supports  you?  A.  Yes;  when  I am  not  working. 

Q.  What  do  you  work  at?  A.  Telephone  office  or  waitress;  I worked 
at  the  Illinois  Hotel  over  here  a long  time  before  I was  married,  and  after  I 
was  married,  and  since  my  husband  and  I parted. 

Q.  You  worked  there  as  a telephone  operator?  A.  No;  as  a waitress. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  a week?  A.  Six  dollars  a week  were  my 
wages. 

Q.  That  is  pretty  good  wages  in  Springfield?  A.  It  is  about  the  best 
there  is. 

Q.  You  got  your  board,  too?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  know  at  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  L and 

J . 

Q.  What  does  J do  for  a living?  A.  She  works  over  there. 

Q.  Works  at  the  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  plain-do thesmen  here  in  Springfield?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

y.  How  many  do  you  know  ? A.  One. 

y.  How  long  have  you  know  him?  A.  About  seven  years. 

y.  Where  did  you  meet  this  plain-clothesman?  A.  I met  him  at  home. 

y.  Did  you  ever  meet  a plain-clothesman  living  at  the  Victor  Hotel?  A. 

No,  sir. 

y.  Or  at  any  other  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

y.  As  a matter  of  fact  your  mother  supports  you?  A.  She  does,  when 
I am  not  working. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  you  have  had  a regular  job?  A.  About 
six  months. 

y.  During  those  six  months,  how  much  time  have  you  spent  in  Spring- 
field?  A.  I don’t  know;  not  so  much. 

y.  Now,  you  first  knew  there  was  such  a hotel  as  the  Victor  Hotel  about 
four  years  ago  when  you  went  there  with  your  husband?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  business  was  your  husband  in?  A.  A waiter. 

y.  How  long  did  you  live  there  at  that  time?  A.  About  three  years,  I 
guess. 

y.  That  was  up  to  a year  ago?  A.  About  a year  ago. 

y.  During  the  three  years  that  you  lived  at  the  Victor  Hotel  with  your 


576  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

husband,  did  you  ever  see  anything  out  of  the  way?  A.  No,  sir;  I never  saw 
anything  wrong,  or  mixed  with  them ; I stayed  in  my  own  room. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  rumors  or  reports  that  things  were  not  right?  A. 
He  never  allowed  me  to  mix  with  any  one  around  there. 

Q.  You  never  met  any  girls  or  any  one  living  at  the  Victor  Hotel  dur- 
ing those  years?  A.  Just  a married  lady. 

Q.  Aside  from  this  married  lady,  there  wasn’t  a single  roomer  or  a single 
woman  stopping  at  the  Victor  Hotel  that  you  met  in  three  years?  A.  No. 

Q.  During  those  years,  you  want  this  Committee  to  understand  that  you 
didn’t  see  anything  out  of  the  way?  A.  I didn’t  see  anything  out  of  the  way. 

Q.  What  did  you  mean  then  when  you  stated  that  the  hotel  is  run  alto- 
gether differently  under  the  present  management?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Venable 
doesn’t  allow  any  one  up  there  who  drinks,  and  he  doesn’t  allow  any  one  to 
come  up  there  that  is  drunk,  and  he  tries  to  keep  all  married  people,  and  he 
never  allows  arguments. 

Q.  He  tries  to  keep  all  married  people?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  mean  by  that  that  the  old  proprietor  didn’t  care  whether  his 
guests  were  married  or  not?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know;  I never  knew  Mrs. 
Clark;  I wasn’t  mixing  in  her  business  and  wasn’t  familiar  with  her,  like  I am 
with  Mrs.  Venable. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  know  whether  that  is  an  improvement  or  not?  A. 
Well,  I think  it  is,  when  he  won’t  allow  people  to  come  there  drunk,  and 
won’t  allow  them  to  have  drinks  in^e  hotel. 

Q.  Now,  did  Mrs.  Clark  allow  them  to  come  there  drunk?  A.  Why,  I 
have  seen  people  there. 

Q.  You  have  seen  people  there  drunk?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  On  several  occasions?  A.  Well,  they  would  come  up  there;  Mrs. 
Venable  won’t  let  anybody  have  a room  that  is  drunk. 

Q.  During  the  reign  of  Mrs.  Clark,  did  you  ever  see  a man  come  up 
there  with  a woman?  A.  I have  seen  them,  yes. 

Q.  In  what  other  way  has  this  hotel  changed  in  four  years?  A.  That  is 
all  I can  say. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  What  conversation,  if  any,  did  you  have  with  Mr. 
and  Mrs.  Venable  when  you  first  found  out  that  you  were  going  to  testify 
before  this  Committee?  Tell  the  Committee  just  what  took  place.  A.  I 
didn’t  know  anything  about  it  until  this  morning.  He  just  told  me — said  we 
had  to  appear  here  tonight,  and  I said  “M'hy?” 

Q.  What  was  the  discussion?  Tell  it  in  your  own  words  and  speak  out 
freely.  A.  Well,  that  is  all  he  said.  I was  scared.  I went  upstairs  to  my 
own  room. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  the  house  now,  on  your  last  visit,  your  last 
stay  there?  A.  A week. 

Q.  And  how  long  prior  to  that  week  since  you  were  there?  A.  About 
two  months. 

Q.  How  was  the  hotel  the  last  time  you  were  there?  A.  Just  the  same 
as  it  is  now. 

Q.  Was  there  any  transient  business  there  of  any  kind?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  many  woman  roomers  were  there  the  last  time  you  were  there? 
A.  I don’t  know;  I never  knew  any  only  L . 

Q.  Did  you  work  in  the  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  working  there  now?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  young  ladies  are  living  there  now,  as  far  as  you  know? 
A.  I only  know  J and  L . 

Q.  Are  you  receiving  money  now  from  your  husband?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  employed  in  the  City  of  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  were  employed?  A.  About  six  months. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


577 


Q.  Where  were  you  employed?  A.  In  St.  Louis. 

! Q.  Where  is  your  husband?  A.  In  Peoria. 

Q.  You  are  receiving  regular  remittances,  of  course,  from  some  other  city? 
\.  Why,  my  mother  gave  me  so  much  when  I came  here. 

(Witness  excused.) 

jrace  Cly bourn’s  Testimony,  Continued. 

GRACE  CLYBOURN  was  recalled  as  a witness,  and  further  testified 
^s  follows: 


; EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

f 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  Mrs.  Venable  refer  you  to  any  other 
lotel?  A.  Mrs.  Venable  told  me  about  getting  work  to  do,  and  it  seems 
:hat  the  girls  who  room  at  these  hotels  work  in  the  hotels,  do  chamber 
ivork,  or  anything  they  find,  and  see  to  the  register,  and  take  care  of  the 
office;  and  she  sent  me — she  told  me  that  a lady  had  called  her  up  a few 
:ilays  before  and  had  asked  her  if  she  knew  of  any  girls  to  come  there  to 
five  and  work,  and  she  sent  me  to  Mrs.  Powell  at  the  Cliff  House.  I went 
jknd  talked  to  Mrs.  Powell;  and  it  seems  right  now  she  wanted  someone 
[that  was  strong,  that  could  do  house  cleaning,  and  she  said  that  she  didn’t 
fhink  I looked  like  I could  do  the  house  cleaning,  hut  that  after  the  house 
fcleaning  was  done,  and  her  daughter  and  her  man,  as  she  called  him,  left, 
khe  would  like  to  have  me  come  there  and  do  light  housework  and  enter- 
tain people  that  came  in. 

'I  Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  entertaining  people?  A.  Well,  the  men. 

• Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  there?  A.  After  I talked  with  Mrs. 

Powell  I went  to  see  Mrs.  Chambers. 

’ Q.  Where  is  she  located?  A.  At  111  1-2  South  Fourth  Street;  and 
ll  went  and  talked  with  her,  and  she  said  I didn’t  look  like  I belonged 
‘down  there,  and  she  advised  me  to  go  to  some  private  place  to  live,  that  I 
|COuld  do  better;  and  she  said  she  would  like  to  have  me  come  and  live 
with  her. 

' Q.  She  said  she  would  like  to  have  you  come  and  live  with  her  at 
her  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

il  Q.  What  would  you  have  to  do  there?  A.  Just  stop  there  and 

‘entertain  the  men  friends  that  come  there. 

Q.  Where  is  her  home?  A.  Ill  1-2  South  Fourth  Street. 

Q.  That  is  where  she  wanted  you  to  stay?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
where  she  lives. 

Q.  Did  she  tell  you  anything  about  the  financial  arrangements?  A. 
jWell,  she  told  me  as  to  the  prices  that  the  men  paid  there. 

Q.  What  did  she  say  that  the  men  paid?  A.  She  said  when  the 
Igirl  got  $3.00,  she  took  $1.00,  and  when  they  paid  $5.00,  she  took  $2.00; 

;jand  she  said  she  had  some  men  that  only  paid  $2.00.  She  said  if  the  girls 

were  living  in  the  house,  she  didn’t  take  anything  out. 

‘ 0.  Did  she  make  any  reference  to  any  hotel?  A.  Well,  she  advised 
me  not  to  live  in  a hotel,  or  at  the  Victor,  to  live  in  a private  place  such 
'as  her  place. 

Q.  Why  did  she  advise  you  not  to  live  at  a hotel?  A.  Why,  she 
thought  it  was  better  to  live  in  a private  place,  where  you  could  make  your 
own  friends  and  hold  them  better  than  you  could  in  a hotel,  where  people 
were  just  transient. 

Q.  From  there  where  did  you  go?  A.  After  I talked  with  Mrs. 
Chambers  in  the  afternoon,  in  the  evening,  about  5:30  o’clock,  I went  and 
■ talked  with  Mrs.  Adkinson,  at  the  Park  Hotel. 

Q.  What  did  she  tell  you?  A.  Well,  when  I went  up  the  stairs,  I 
opened  the  door  and  went  up  the  stairs,  and  there  a little  girl  came  run- 
ning out  to  meet  me. 

Q.  About  how  old?  A.  Well,  I really  couldn’t  say;  from  three  to 
five  years  old.  She  came  out  and  met  me  and  took  me  to  the  room  where 
mer  mother  was,  and  Mrs.  Adkinson  talked  to  me  and  said  she  would 


578 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


like  to  have  me  come  there  and  live;  that  she  had  a couple  of  girls,  but 
they  weren’t  there  right  now;  that  they  were  in  Peoria,  I think,  or  some 
place  she  told  me,  and  that  she  couldn’t  depend  on  them;  that  they  ran 
around  too  much  and  they  didn’t  stay  at  home  and  attend  to  their  busi- 
ness, and  she  wanted  someone  home  that  she  could  depend  on  and  place 
confidence  in.  If  there  was  any  people  coming  in,  one  ought  to  be  there 
to  take  care  of  them,  she  said;  those  girls  that  she  had  were  running 
around  cafes  and  things,  and  weren’t  there  when  people  came  in. 

Q.  Did  she  say  that  she  had  all  of  her  rooms  filled  all  of  the  time? 
A.  She  said  that  she  didn’t  have  only  one  room,  I think,  rented  to  steady 
roomers  with  the  exception  of  the  rooms  that  the  .girls  had;  and  she  said 
she  hadn’t  had  a room  vacant  for — well,  she  said  a long  time,  weeks,  I 
think,  until  the  other  night,  and  she  said  the  other  night  that  she  had  a 
room  vacant.  She  said  other  people  were  complaining  that  their  rooms 
weren’t  occupied,  but  that  she  had  been  very  busy,  and  she  saj^s  the  reason 
that  room  wasn’t  occupied  was  because  she  couldn’t  find  any  girls,  couldn’t 
get  any  girl  that  night. 

Q.  Couldn’t  get  any  girl  that  night?  A.  Couldn’t  get  any  girl  to  call 
up.  She  said  when  she  couldn’t  get  a girl  on  the  phone  she  went  around  down 
to  the  cafes  and  got  some  girls  that  sat  in  the  cafes. 

Q.  Let’s  get  that  clear.  Said  that  here  in  Springfield,  the  capital  of  Illi- 
nois, that  when  a woman  couldn’t  get  girls  to  serve  to  men  she  would  go  down 
to  cafes  and  pick  them  up?  A.  She  said  she  did. 

Q.  She  said  she  did  that?  A.  She  said  she  did.  She  didn’t  tell  me  that 
any  one  else  did  it.  She  said  she  did. 

Q.  What  cafes  did  she  mention?  A.  She  didn’t  mention  any. 

Q.  Did  she  say  that  that  w^as  a practice?  A.  She  said  she  did  that  when 
girls  weren’t  home  that  she  called  on  the  phone ; that  sometimes  when  they 
would  leave  there  they  would  leave  their  number  so  that  they  could  be  called 
up  at  a certain  place. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  mean  to  say,  madam,  that  this  woman  had  a list  of  girls 
here  in  Springfield  that  she  could  call  on  the  telephone  and  have  come  to  seiwe 
men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  if  she  couldn’t  find  enough  girls,  she  would  have  to  run  down 
to  the  restaurants  and  pick  them  up?  A.  In  the  cafes  where  they  sat  and 
drank. 

Q.  Did  she  say  anything  about  the  pay  given  these  girls?  A.  She  didn’t 
tell  me,  nor  did  anyone  else.  Every  place  where  I went  and  asked  them  tc 
call  me,  they  advised  me  not  to  go  to  the  Park  Hotel,  that  it  was  a cheap 
place. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A.  W’ell,  that  the  girls  didn’t  get  as 
much  money  there  as  they  did  other  places,  and  they  advised  me  not  to  gc 
there. 

Q.  Do  you  wish  this  Committee  to  understand  that  at  other  hotels  the> 
called  girls  in?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  w’hat  I found. 

Q.  When  you  saw  Mrs.  Powell  at  the  Cliff  House,  was  anything  said 
about  a flat?  A.  I asked  her  if  I could  get  a flat  here  in  Springfield,  if  1 
had  to  have  police  protection.  She  advised  me  not  to.  She  said  if  you  have 
police  protection  that  the  police  wdien  they  knew  about  you  grafted  on  you  sc 
that  there  wasn’t  anything  left. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  What  did  she  say.  that  if  you  had  police  protection 
then  what?  A.  'Whv,  I asked  if  I got  a flat  in  Springfield  if  I would  have 
to  go  to  the  police  station  and  tell  them  where  I was  and  that  I was  going  tc 
run  a place,  and  she  said  no,  that  she  wouldn’t  advise  me  to  do  that,  that  i 
you  went  and  had  police  protection  that  they  grafted  on  you  in  ever> 
possible  way,  you  know. 

Q.  The  girls  that  you  talked  with  told  j-ou  that  they  entertained  men  a 
these  hotels?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


579 


I Q.  That  was  their  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  any  other  work  was  merely  a pretext?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

(Witness  excused.) 

-jM M ’s  Testimony. 

! M M was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  been  first  duly 

■ sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  M M . 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Twenty- four. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  214^  North  Fourth  street. 

, Q.  Is  that  a hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j Q.  What  is  the  name  of  it?  A.  The  Palace. 

! Q.  Who  runs  that  hotel?  A.  Mrs.  Lewis  Moore. 

E Q.  Are  you  married?  A.  I am  not. 

I Q.  Dependent  upon  your  own  efforts  for  a living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  employment  now?  A.  I am  chambermaid  at  Mrs. 
I Moore’s  hotel. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  worked  there?  A.  Two  years. 

' Q.  What  does  she  pay  you  for  that  work?  A.  She  pays  me  $5.00  a 

. j week. 

Q.  And  board?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  room  and  board. 

Q.  What  is  the  number  of  your  room  there?  A.  Number  25. 

Q.  Are  there  better  rooms  in  the  hotel?  A.  Yes,  there  is.  Mine  is  an 
inside  room,  that  is  all,  and  outside  of  that  it  is  all  right. 

, Q.  What  time  do  you  begin  working  in  the  morning?  A.  About  half 
J ; past  eight. 

Q.  You  work  until  how  late  in  the  evening?  A.  Well,  I usually  am 

0 - through  about  4 o’clock. 

Q.  Then  what  do  you  do?  A.  Well,  I just  don’t  do  anything.  I stay 
" • around  in  the  hotel  if  I want  to,  and  I go  in  the  parlor;  I don’t  mix  with  any 

■ i of  them. 

Q.  When  you  go  down  in  the  parlor  what  do  you  do?  A.  Sit  and  read, 
' I and  do  anything  I care  to  do. 

, j Q.  Do  you  know  J ? A.  Know  her  by  sight,  that  is  all. 

i Q.  Know  T- ? A.  No;  just  know  her  when  I see  her. 

i Q.  Do  you  know  the  girl  who  was  just  on  the  stand  here?  A.  I do. 

^ Q.  How  long  have  you  known  her?  A.  I just  met  her  once;  she  was  up 

/ j to  the  house. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  time  you  met  her?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  What  did  you  say  to  her  that  day?  A.  Well,  she  asked  me  when  she 
> f came  in — she  asked  me  if  she  could  speak  to  Mrs.  Moore,  and  I told  her  that 

r J Mrs.  Moore  was  not  at  home. 

K 

I Q.  You  told  her  that  Mrs.  Moore  was  not  at  home?  A.  I said  that  Mrs. 

! I Moore  was  not  at  home.  She  then  asked  me  if  she  could  talk  to  some  one 

1 else,  and  I said  she  could  talk  to  me  if  she  cared  to  talk  to  anybody,  and  I sat 
I ) down  in  the  office  and  was  talking  to  her,  and  she  wanted  to  know  if  Mrs. 

I Moore  called  girls,  and  I stated  the  facts  to  her. 

Q.  What  were  the  facts?  A.  I said  we  didn’t  follow  the  business  of 
doing  it,  but  if  we  should  ever  need  her — she  gave  me  her  name  and  address 
j I at  the  Victor  Hotel — Grace  Parker — and  I told  her  that  if  we  ever  needed  her 
r ' we  would  call  her. 

r Q.  If  you  ever  needed  her?  A.  That  she  would  be  called. 

' ' Q.  You  didn’t  need  her  at  that  time?  A.  I certainly  did  not,  and  never 

i i called  her. 

I i Q.  Where  did  you  send  her?  A.  I sent  her  to  llll4  South  Fourth  street. 

1 1 She  claimed  she  wanted  room  and  board,  and  I_  sent  her  there  to  get  it.  I 
I knew  Mrs.  Chambers  for  years,  and  I roomed  with  her  before. 


580 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  sent  her  there  to  get  what  kind  of  a job?  A.  I didn’t  tell  her 
anything  about  the  job  at  all.  I said— I don’t  remember  just  what  I said  to 
her,  but  I gave  her  a card,  but  I don’t  just  remember  what  I put  on  the  card 
I don’t  remember  what  I said,  the  exact  words  I used  on  the  card;  I do  not 
remember. 

Q.  This  is  the  card,  is  it?  (Handing  card  to  the  witness.)  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I will  read  this  into  the  record: 

“Lillian  : Call  this  little  girl  if  vou  want  anv  one,  for  she  is  all 

O.  K.  - . , 

( Signed)  May. 

111)4  South  Fourth  street.” 

Q.  And  this  was  the  card  that  you  sent  by  this  little  girl  to  Lillian  Cham- 
bers? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  did  you  mean;  did  you  send  this  girl  to  get  a job  there? 
A.  Now,  listen  here,  she  asked  me  to  call  her  when  she  came  up  to  the  house; 

she  says,  “Do  you  call  girls?”  I then  sent  her  to  111)4  South  Fourth  street 

to  get  room  and  board. 

Q.  She  asked  you  if  you  called  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  did  you  understand  she  meant  by  that?  A.  I suppose  she 
meant,  did  she  call  a girl  to  meet  men  intimately. 

Q.  To  meet  men?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  told  her  you  didn’t?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  said  she  ought  to  go  to  111)4  South  Fourth  Street?  A.  I sent 

her  to  111)4  South  Fourth  Street. 

Q.  Believing  that  she  intended  to  go  there  to  call  men  in?  That  is  what 
you  intended  when  you  gave  her  this  card,  was  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  how  do  you  know  that  this  place  run  by  Lillian  Chambers  catered 
to  that  kind  of  trade?  A.  Well,  simply  because  I have  roomed  there  and  I 
have  heard  other  people  say  so,  that  is  all  I know  about  the  place.  I have 
never  been  called  myself. 

Q.  You  never  were  called  there?  A.  I was  not. 

Q.  Now,  they  don’t  do  this  sort  of  business  at  Mrs.  Moore’s  house,  where 
you  are  working?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  have  been  there  how  long?  A.  Two  j'ears. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  are  there?  A.  Twenty-eight. 

Q.  And  how  many  girls?  A.  We  have  two. 

Q.  Two  chambermaids?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Any  other  girls  living  there  and  not  working?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  this  girl  was  O.  K.  ? A.  W’ell,  I didn’t  know  it 
only  just  from  what  talk  I had  with  her  at  that  time. 

Q.  Now,  let’s  be  honest:  By  “O.  K.”  you  meant  this  girl  is  all  right,  she 
won’t  squeal  and  won’t  talk,  and  is  that  kind  of  a girl;  that  is  what  you  meant 
to  imply  when  you  said  she  was  O.  K.,  wasn’t  it.  A.  I don’t  know  as  I 
exactly  meant  that.  I don’t  really  know  just  exactly  how  to  place  the  words 
I had  in  mind. 

Q.  You  want  to  tell  this  Committee  the  truth?  A.  I certainly  do. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  this  Committee  all  you  know  of  this  entire  system  in 

Springfield  of  calling  girls,  where  you  are  located  at  one  place,  and  you  give 
a girl  a card  to  another  place  and  say  she  is  all  right  and  a call  girl?  What  is 
this  call  girl’s  system?  A.  All  I know  is  that  they  are  supposed  to  meet 
fellows  when  they  are  called  to  the  house ; that  is  all  I know  about  the  thing. 

Q.  Now,  do  some  of  those  girls  that  are  “called,”  work  during  the  day 
time,  do  you  think?  A.  I think,  in  fact,  that  most  of  them  do. 

Q.  Most  of  them  work,  you  think?  A.  All  that  I know;  I don’t  know 

anything  about  them  otherwise  than  that  they  work  up  where  I am  rooming; 
I don’t  know  where  they  room  or  anything  about  that. 

Q.  They  are  girls  who  work  in  the  daytime  and  at  night  are  call  girls? 
A.  I don’t  associate  with  any  girls  outside  of  the  girl  that  works  at  the  house, 
at  the  hotel. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


581 


V I Q-  Aiid  all  that  you  know  about  these  call  girls  and  this  call  system  is  that 
■jjsome  girls  are  called  to  meet  men  at  night,  and  most  of  those  girls  that  are 
j called  to  meet  men  are  girls  that  work  in  the  daytime?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' ■ Q-  Do  you  know  how  much  they  are  paid  for  their  night  services?  A.  I 
I 'do  not. 


II  EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

■ t SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Now,  I just  want  to  say  this  to  you:  There  isn’t 
I 'any  desire  on  the  part  of  this  Committee  to  treat  any  witness  harshly.  A.  I 
9 don’t  believe  there  is. 

' Q.  But  this  Committee  is  clothed  with  power  that  enables  it  to  compel 
>;  [Witnesses  to  testify  here,  and  it  possesses  the  power  to  punish  for  perjury.  I 
al  I think  we  have  heard  a lot  of  perjury  here  tonight.  Now,  tell  this  Committee 
what  you  know,  and  this  Committee  will  treat  you  as  courteously  and  as  leniently 
p 'as  possible.  Tell  this  Committee  what  was  in  your  mind  when  you,  being  located 
u I at  one  place,  send  a young  woman,  who  was  almost  unknown  to  you,  to  another 

0 place,  with  a card  of  introduction,  sending  her  into  a line  of  business  that  no 
,1  good  woman  ought  to  be  sent  into — now  tell  us  what  you  know  of  the  system 

that  made  it  possible  to  go  to  that  second  place  to  seek  and  obtain  that  kind  of 

1 i employment  ? You  are  better  off  by  telling  us.  There  isn’t  any  desire  on 

j the  part  of  this  Committee  to  harm  anybody.  We  are  after  the  system  and 
{ not  after  you.  Go  ahead  and  speak  up  and  tell  us  what  you  know,  and  let  us 
j ,get  one  witness  that  is  willing  to  state  to  this  Committee  what  is  going  on. 
^ II  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that  I exactly  can  state  it. 

j ' Q.  Well,  state  what  is  going  on  in  the  place  where  you  sent  this  woman 

‘ to?  A.  Well,  really  I cannot  tell  you;  honestly  I cannot  tell  you. 

I Q.  To  what  extent  would  the  keeper  of  that  institution  profit  by  the  com- 
» ; ing  of  this  girl?  A.  I cannot  say. 

) > Q.  Now,  they  wouldn’t  run  a charity  institution  over  here,  would  they? 

' [ A.  I wouldn’t  think  so ; no. 

I Q.  Well,  what  would  you  think,  then,  that  they  would  do?  A.  Well,  if  she 

■ I was  called  I presume  she  would  be  called — 

> i Q.  On  a basis  of  what?  A.  Of  meeting  a man. 

} I Q.  Yes:  on  what  financial  basis?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  what  the  financial 

f ‘ basis  would  be. 

I Q.  Do  you  know  the  landlady  of  the  place  you  sent  this  girl  to?  A.  I 

, know  her  only  by  rooming  with  her  about  three  years  ago. 

[ f Q.  And  those  three  years  she  has  been  in  that  line  of  business?  A.  She 
I is  running  a rooming  house,  that  is  all  I can  say.  She  has  no  lady  roomers 

j"  that  way  at  all,  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  But  they  may  come  there?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that,  because  I 
haven’t  been  there  since  I left.  As  I say,  I used  to  room  with  her. 

iQ.  At  the  time  you  wrote  this  card,  you  had  in  your  mind  that  this  girl 
might  go  there  and  brine  company  to  the  place;  did  you  or  did  you  not?  You 
had  that  in  mind,  didn’t  you? 

(No  response.) 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  compliment  you.  You  would  never  be  a 
good  prevaricator  ; you  don’t  know  how  to  do  it. 

0-  Now,  didn’t  you  tell  this  girl  that  you  gave  the  card  to  that  there  were 
two  girls  that  did  chamber  work  there  for  the  sake  of  respectability,  and  that 
when  other  girls  were  needed  they  were  called  in?  A.  I did  not. 

Q.  You  had  no  conversation  of  that  nature  with  her?  A.  No,  I did  not. 
Q.  You  did  not  tell  her  that  you  formerly  lived  at  Lillian  Chambers’?  A.  I 
; told  her  that  I did,  stating  where  I worked  at  the  time  I lived  there. 

Q.  And  in  telling  her  that  you  lived  there  and  found  the  place  perfectly 
I proper,  vou  gave  her  this  card?  A.  I don’t  know  that  I stated  anything  like 
(that  to  her  at  all;  I didn’t  say;  I don’t  think  I said  any  more  than  I said  on 
1 that  card,  and  I told  her  that  she  could  go  up  there  and  talk  to  Mrs.  Chambers 
I herself. 


582 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  girls  do  you  think  are  “call  girls”  in  Springfield?  A.  Well, 

I cannot  say. 

Q.  Haven’t  any  idea?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  lists  of  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  lived  at  Lillian  Chambers’  place,  did  they  have  a telephone 
list?  A.  No,  sir;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  But  you  did  hear  them  call  up  girls?  A.  I have  heard  of  it. 

Q.  You  haven’t  an5Thing  further  to  tell  us  now  as  to  what  you  know 
about  any  of  those  places?  A.  No,  sir.  I have  nothing  to  tell. 

(Witness  temporarily  excused.) 

Florence  Patton’s  Testimony. 

FLORENCE  PATTON  was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Florence  Patton. 

Q.  And  your  business,  madam?  A.  I keep  a house  at  123  North 
Eighth  Street. 

Q.  That  is  in  the  segregated  district,  is  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  sell  any  intoxicants  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  music  there?  A.  Well,  not  much;  not  after 
12  o’clock. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

Q.  Have  you  any  government  license?  A.  There  was  a government 
license  there  when  I bought  the  place  and  it  still  hangs  there. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  bought  the  place?  A.  Two  years. 

Q.  Have  you  had  your  government  license  renewed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  renew  it?  A.  The  time  I bought  out  there. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  there?  A.  A year — a little  over  a 
year. 

Q.  If  you  don’t  sell  any  liquor,  why  do  you  renew  a government 
license?  A.  Just  a form,  I suppose. 

Q.  It  isn’t  a form;  you  renewed  the  government  license?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  is  that  government  license  for?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  For  what  are  you  paying  a government  license?  A.  I couldn’t 
tell  that;  I just  renewed  it. 

Q.  Well,  what  did  you  have  the  license  to  do?  A.  Well,  when  1 
bought  the  place  she  told  me  to  have  it  renewed  in  case  that  the  town 
would  open,  but  it  never  has. 

Q.  The  town  never  opened?  A.  No;  never  since  I bought  the  place 
two  years  ago;  it  has  never  been  open;  it  has  been  closed  tighter  than 
ever.  I have  never  been  allowed  music,  and  she  had  music  all  night. 

Q.  You  paid  the  government  license  inside  of  the  past  3’ear,  didn’t 
you?  A.  I don’t  remember  that. 

Q.  Well,  you  paid  $20  for  that  to  the  United  States  government, 
didn’t  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  you  paid  that  $20  you  had  an  idea  that  \-ou  paid  it  out 
for  some  reaspn?  A.  Yes.  , 

Q.  You  have  never  made  use  of  that  license?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  never  sell  any  near-beer?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  haven’t  had  any  fizz  or  soda  water,  have  3'ou?  A.  Soda 
water,  yes;  not  soda  water — “Doctor  Pepper,”  and  gingerale. 

Q.  What  brewery  do  you  buy  tbe  gingerale  from?  A.  Don’t  buy  it 
from  a brewery. 

Q.  What  firm?  A.  A city  firm. 

Q.  Is  that  a brewery?  A.  No,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


583 


Q.  What  is  it?  A.  Just  a city  concern. 

Q.  And  all  you  get,  you  get  from  a city  concern?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  you  are  practically  making  a donation  of  this  money  to  the 
United  States  government  in  order  to  help  them  out;  is  that  it?  A.  No, 
isir. 

I Q.  Just  donate  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  Just  give  the  government  $20?  A.  Yes. 
i Q.  But  you  have  no  use  for  it?  A.  No;  never  had  any  use;  there 
was  one  there  when  I got  the  place,  and  we  renewed  it. 

! Q.  Nobody  ever  gets  a bottle  of  beer  at  your  place  at  all?  A.  No, 
sir;  we  have  beer  ourselves,  of  course. 

Q.  You  have  beer  yourselves;  you  don’t  need  a government  license 
for  what  you  use  yourselves?  A.  No,  sir. 

■ Q.  What  do  you  charge  a bottle  for  the  stuff  you  sell  there?  A. 
Twenty-five  cents  a small  bottle. 

Q.  And  fifty  cents  a big  bottle?  A.  No;  we  only  have  small  bottles. 
Q.  Now,  what  is  the  difference  between  the  beer  you  have  in  your 
ice  box  for  your  own  consumption  and  the  beer  you  sell  to  your  cus- 
tomers? A.  They  don’t  get  any  of  that. 

Q.  Never  by  any  chance  do  they  get  any  out  of  the  ice  box  that 
you  keep  for  yourself?  A.  Never  unless  a friend  comes. 

Q.  Has  got  to  be  a nice  fellow,  but  if  he  is  a nice  fellow  he  can 
get  some  of  that  stuff  in  the  ice  box,  can’t  he?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I thought  you  just  said  a minute  ago  that  a friend  could  get  it? 
A.  I said  if  we  had  company  at  our  table  he  could. 

Q.  Then  when  you  have  company,  do  you  charge  them  fifty  cents 
a bottle?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  twenty-five  cents?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I want  to  give  you  this  free  legal  advice,  madam;  you  don’t 
need  any  United  States  license  if  what  you  say  is  true.  A.  All  right. 


EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

I Q.  You  are  in  the  segregated  district?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  You  are  respecting  all  of  the  rules  that  the  city  has  for  regulating 

» that  district?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

)|i  Q.  And  you  think  that  you  are  running  about  as  well  regulated  and 
!;|as  decent  a place  as  there  is  in  that  district?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

’I  Q.  You  want  to  obey  the  laws  as  you  find  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j(l  Q-  You  want  to  respect  authority?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

lii  Q.  And  you  believe  that  prostitution  should  be  confined  to  certain 

[|i|  districts?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

jlj  Q-  And  that  when  prostitution  is  outside  of  that  district  it  ought 
to  be  stopped?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

};;;  Q.  You  want  to  co-operate  with  this  Committee  in  finding  out  if 
i's  there  are  any  hotels  outside  of  that  district  that  are  shady,  don’t  you? 
jj  J A.  I would  if  I could,  but  I don’t  ever  go  out.  I just  go  out  to  shop. 

(j  j Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  the  hotels?  A.  No,  sir;  I have 

tl  j never  been  in  a hotel  in  Springfield  in  my  life.  This  is  the  first  time  I 
i''  have  ever  been  in  the  Leland. 

; :!  Q.  Ever  get  any  of  your  girls  from  the  hotels?  A.  No,  sir;  all  of 
I j my  girls  come  from  the  outside. 

I Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  “call  girls?”  A.  No,  sir;  not  in  Spring- 
) J field. 

jj  _ Q.  Have  you  in  other  towns?  A.  I have  heard  Chicago  girls  talk 
of  it,  but  I don’t  know.  I have  heard  them  say  they  went  out  on  a call, 
hi  but  I didn’t  know  what  they  meant. 

Q.  You  didn’t  know  what  the  system  was?  A.  No,  sir. 

j* 

i 

:J 


584  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  this  kind  of  business?  A.  A little 
over  two  years  here  in  Springfield. 

Q.  You  own  the  place?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  does  own  that  place?  A.  I really  couldn’t  tell  you  who 
owns  it;  I could  tell  you  who  I rent  it  from. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  From  the  Herman  Pierik  Real  Estate  Company. 

Q.  How  much  rent  do  you  pay  them?  A.  $200. 

Q.  $200  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  for  that  one  house  there?  A.  Well,  it  is  two,  but  we 
don’t  use  only  the  one;  it  is  a flat,  you  know,  and  the  other  side  I have 
it  for  my  own  premises,  but  it  is  closed  now  and  I live  in  the  country; 
I live  in  the  suburbs  here  out  in  the  country. 

Q.  How  long  does  your  lease  run?  A.  It  runs  for  five  years  from 
1911. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  in  that  house?  A.  You  mean  all  told? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Sixteen';  that  is,  with  the  kitchen,  with  the  kitchen, 
basement  and  everything. 

Q.  Is  that  rent  a little  higher  than  they  charge  in  Springfield  in 
other  parts  of  town?  A.  Well,  I wouldn’t  know  that,  to  tell  the  truth. 

Q.  Do  they  usually  charge  higher  rents  in  the  red-light  district  than 

in  the  other  parts  of  town?  A.  Well,  when  I kept  house  before  I owned 

my  own  property.  I lived  in  Kentucky  and  owned  my  own  place. 

Q.  Your  place  is  123  North  Eighth  Street?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  knowm  many  girls  in  sporting  life,  have  you?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  most  of  those  girls  would  sooner  be  out  of 
the  life  than  in  it?  A.  I could  not  say  that. 

Q.  Let  me  put  it  this  way,  madam;  If  you  had  a daughter,  }mu 

wouldn’t  want  her  to  be  in  the  business,  would  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  out  of  the  best  of  your  years  of  experience  in 
that  kind  of  life?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  this  Committee  isn’t  attacking  you  or  your  girls,  but  this 
Committee  is  trying  to  save  girls,  like  your  daughter  would  be  if  j'ou  had 
one,  going  into  that  kind  of  life,  and  we  want  to  find  out  what  causes 
girls  to  take  the  first  step  leading  to  prostitution.  What  do  you  think 
is  the  great  big  cause  of  their  going  wrong?  A.  I could  hardlj'  say, 
unless  they  wanted  to  make  more  money  than  they  could  make  other- 
wise; they  would  want  to  dress  better  or  something.  I have  always 
advised  them,  when  they  could  do  better,  to  go  away.  Several  girls  have 
married  over  there,  and  I have  always  advised  them  and  helped  them 
to  get  out  of  it. 

Q.  You  tell  these  girls  that  at  any  time  they  can  find  a good  job 

they  had  better  get  out  of  that  kind  of  life?  A.  Yes,  sir;  get  jobs  or 

get  husbands. 

Q.  Sometimes  they  have  gone  and  got  husbands?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Good  husbands?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  often  with  a girl  down  in  the  red-light  district  there  is  a 
ray  of  hope  that  she  can  get  out  from  there  and  get  a job  or  get  a 

husband,  and  in  that  case  you  help  her  to  escape?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  a song  of  thanksgiving  in  your  soul  when  a girl  does 
escape?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  if  there  were  more  good  jobs  and  more  good  hus- 
bands there  would  be  fewer  girls  down  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  that  from  your  experience?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Q.  What  part  does  want  play  in  driving  young 
girls  to  houses  such  as  yours,  if  any?  A.  I really  couldn’t  answer. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


585 


Q.  Do  you  think  that  some  of  the  girls  that  come  to  places  like  that 
go  there  because  they  are  in  want?  A.  I have  never  started  a girl  in 
the  business. 

i Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  you  have  never  started 
a girl  on  her  downward  path  in  your  life?  A.  1 never  did  in  my  life. 
I am  getting  out  of  it  myself  right  now. 

Q.  You  are  getting  out  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  You  are  going  into  some  other  business? 
A.  No,  sir;  going  to  live  in  the  country  on  a farm. 

Q.  Retire  to  a farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  this  farm?  A.  Southwest  of  the  city  three  miles. 

Q.  How  much  of  a farm?  A.  Well,  about  three  acres  and  a bunga- 
low. 

I Q.  How  far  from  town?  A.  Well,  I guess  it  is  about  three  miles 
from  here  to  the  southwest  of  here. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  own  experience?  A.  It  has  been  so  long 
ago,  but  I had  a son  and  my  husband  died,  and  I went  into  the  business 
to  keep  him.  Of  course,  I didn’t  get  any  wages — that  was  years  and  years 
ago. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  didn’t  get  any  wages?  A.  Not  enough  to 
keep  a child. 

Q.  Let  us  have  your  own  story,  that  is  what  we  are  trying  to  get  at. 
A.  I had  a child  to  keep,  and  as  he  grew  older  I had  to  educate  him. 

Q.  And  you  couldn’t  maintain  him  and  yourself  on  the  wages  you 
earned?  A.  Not  and  send  him  to  college. 

Q.  You  weren’t  thinking  of  sending  him  to  college  when  he  was  ten 
years  old?  A.  He  went  to  preparatory  school. 

Q.  You  saw  no  future  in  working  at  the  wages  you  could  get?  A. 
No;  I couldn’t  keep  him  as  I wanted  to  keep  him. 

Q.  What  work  did  you  do?  A.  Worked  in  a candy  store. 

Q.  What  did  you  get?  A.  Six  or  seven  dollars  a week. 

Q.  And  that  was  big  wages  then,  I suppose?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  you  give  your  son  a college  educa- 
tion? A.  Yes,  sir.  He  lived  to  be  twenty-six  years  old  and  he  died. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  much  money  are  you  worth  now, 
Mrs.  Patton?  A.  Well,  in  real  estate  and  all,  I guess  about  $18,000  or 
$20,000. 

Q.  How  many  years  have  you  been  accumulating  it?  A.  Oh,  I have 
been  in  business  seventeen  or  eighteen  years,  but  I lost  $40,000  or  $50,000 
at  one  time  through  a friend  of  mine. 

Q.  You  lost  $40,000  or  $50,000,  you  say?  A.  Yes;  at  one  lick. 

Q.  How  did  you  lose  that?  A.  Somebody  cut  in  on  me  whom  I 
had  confidence  in. 

Q.  Then  in  those  fifteen  or  sixteen  or  seventeen  years  you  have  got- 
ten $60,000  or  $70,000  out  of  the  business?  A.  Yes;  and  lost  it  all  but 
what  I told  you. 

Q.  You  heard  that  the  district  in  Chicago  closed,  or  was  closed,  some 
weeks  ago?  A.  Yes;  in  the  papers,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  after  the  district  closed,  did  any  fresh  girls  come  to  Spring- 
field  from  Chicago?  A.  Yes;  I think  a few. 

Q.  How  many  would  you  say?  A.  Two  or  three;  it  was  during 
the  Fair,  and  I didn’t  have  room,  so  they  didn’t  stop  with  me.  One 
stopped  three  days.  I always  comply  with  the  white  slave  laws  and  all 
their  rules,  and  as  soon  as  I get  a girl  I report  it,  and  when  she  leaves  I 
report  it. 

Q.  You  think  the  national  white  slave  officials  are  doing  pretty  good 
work  by  that  card  system,  do  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  only  report  when  a girl  comes  from  outside  the  city?  A. 
No,  sir;  anywhere  she  comes  from,  and  I tell  just  what  she  tells  me,  and 


586  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


they  come  immediately  and  get  her  testimony,  whatever  she  has  got  to 
say,  and  then  when  they  leave  I tell  her  to  send  a card  in  to  the  local 
white  slave  offices,  and  then  he  sends  me  a card  back  that  he  received 
the  card. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  the  police  come  around  and  want 
money?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  never  been  your  experience?  A.  No,  sir;  not  in  the 
seventeen  years  that  I have  been  in  the  business. 

Q.  Would  you  say  so  if  that  was  the  fact?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I would, 
because  I comply  strictly  with  the  rules,  you  know. 

Q.  They  come  around  and  call  once  in  a while,  don’t  they?  A.  If 
they  are  looking  for  somebody. 

Q.  You  treat  them  nicely?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Set  up  the  drinks?  A.  No. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  there  any  difference  in  this  business  under 
the  present  commission  form  of  government  than  what  it  was  under  the 
other  government?  A.  I wasn’t  here  then.  They  just  went  in  office 
when  I came  here. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  if  there  is  any  difference?  A.  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  ever  contributed  to  any  cam- 
paign fund  in  the  city  of  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  given  any  money  to  any  politicians  or  office  holders  in 
the  city  of  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  loaned  any  money  to  any  politician  or  office  holder  in  the 
city  of  Springfield?  A.  I never  did. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  approached  and  asked  to  give  money  to  a 
campaign  fund  to  change  the  form  of  government,  from  the  commission 
form  back  to  the  old  form,  here  in  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir;  I never 
have. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  such  proposition?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  any  one  ever  mentioned  to  you  the  advisability  of  locating 
the  red-light  district  north  of  the  tracks?  A.  Never  heard  of  it. 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  John  H.  Underwood’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  H.  UNDERWOOD  was  called  as  a witness,  and  having  been 
first  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  H.  Under- 
wood. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Underwood?  A.  Superintendent  of 
Police. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  held  that  office?  A.  A year  last  November. 

Q.  Since  that  time  you  have  become  well  familiar  with  the  vice  situa- 
tion in  Springfield?  A.  Well,  as  much  as  I possibly  could. 

Q.  You  have  a segregated  district  here?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir;  it  is 
called  a segregated  district.  We  aim  to  keep  all  of  them  as  near  as  we 
can  in  one  locality. 

Q.  That  is,  you  have  one  locality  in  which  prostitution  is  permit- 
ted? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Under  certain  regulations?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Outside  of  that  district  prostitution  is  not  permitted?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  find  any  one  practicing  prostitution  outside  of  that  dis- 
trict you  prosecute  them,  arrest  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  how  many  police  officers  have  you  in  the  red-light  district, 
stationed  there?  A.  Well,  they  patrol  that  district,  you  know;  we_  have 
three  shifts  of  men,  and  there  is  about  two  men  that  patrol  that  district 
about  all  the  time,  besides  plain-clothes  men. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


587 


Q.  How  many  plain-clothes  men  have  you  on  your  force,  Chief?  A. 
Eight. 

Q.  How  long  have  they  been  in  the  service?  Wha,t  is  their  average 
period  of  service?  A.  I couldn’t  answer  that,  because  they  were  there 
when  I came  on  as  Chief  of  Police.  Now,  just  how  long  they  have  been 
there,  I do  not  know. 

Q.  They  are  under  civil  service?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  the  right  to  discharge  them?  A.  No,  sir.  I simply 
would  bring  charges  against  them  before  the  Civil  Service  Commissioners. 

Q.  These  men  were  all  on  the  force  before  you  became  the  head 
of  the  force?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  gives  them  the  orders?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  during  your  administration  as  chief  of  police  in- 
structed any  of  those  plain-clothes  men  to  investigate  the  conditions  ex- 
isting at  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  I instructed  him  then  to  wait  and 
find  out  if  there  was  anything  going  on  around  there,  any  girls  being 
taken  there. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  Well,  that  has  been  a general  in- 
struction all  the  time,  as  to  not  only  the  Victor  but  several  other  hotels 
in  that  locality. 

Q.  What  are  those  hotels,  Chief?  A.  One  is  the  Park  Hotel,  and 
the  Palace  Hotel,  and  hotels  along  on  Fourth  street;  all  the  hotels  along 
on  Fourth  street. 

Q.  They  have  general  instructions  to  watch  those  hotels?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Why  is  that  the  general  instruction?  A.  Well,  they  are  hotels 
that  are  run  on  the  rooming-house  order  and  do  light  housekeeping,  and 
we  have  to  watch  them  pretty  close.  Complaints  come  in,  and  we  get 
various  complaints  from  different  hotels,  and  then  we  station  men,  not 
only  plain-clothes  men  but  officers  in  uniform,  to  go  there,  and  we  do  not 
allow  anybody  to  go  in  there  unless  they  can  give  a good  account  of 
themselves.  Frequently  we  give  them  instructions  to  bring  them  down  to 
the  office,  to  the  station. 

Q.  When  did  you  get  your  last  complaint  against  the  Victor  Hotel, 
do  you  remember?  A.  No,  I do  not. 

Q.  You  have  had  several  within  a few  months?  A.  No,  I do  not 
know  that  I have  within  the  last  few  months.  I get  letters,  more  or  less 
anonymous  letters,  and  such  as  that.  That  is  the  way  it  comes,  stating 
that  certain  information — certain  conditions  exist  there  along  on  Fourth 
street.  I investigate  them,  and  the  commissioners  they  get  lots  of  the 
same  character,  and  they  call  my  attention  to  it,  and  then  on  the  letters 
they  get  and  the  reports  that  come  in,  I investigate. 

Q.  When  did  you  make  the  last  arrest  at  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  I 
don’t  know  as  we  ever  made  an  arrest  there. 

Q.  Despite  the  fact  that  you  get  complaints,  and  your  officers  have 
watched  that  hotel,  they  haven’t  reported  anything  that  they  have  found 
wrong  there  and  they  haven’t  made  any  arrest,  still  you  keep  the  Victor 
Hotel  on  your  suspect  list?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why?  A.  We  get  reports;  it  is  down  in  that  district  and  there 
are  a great  many  rooming  houses,  and  we  watch  them;  we  watch  all  of 
them,  all  of  the  rooming  houses,  not  only  along  there  but  all  there  are 
in  town,  and  there  are  a great  many  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  those  eight  plain-clothes  men  live,  where  their 
homes  are?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I think  I do. 

Q.  Are  any  of  those  eight  plain-clothes  men  living  at  hotels?  A. 
No,  sir;  there  may  be  one  of  them  boarding  at  a hotel,  but  I know  where 
he  rooms. 

Q.  You  went  on  the  police  force  and  took  the  force  just  as  you  found  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q,  The  district  lies  just  as  you  found  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


588 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  And  at  the  end  of  this  time  the  police  is  just  the  same  and  the  plain- 
clothesmen  are  just  the  same?  A.  The  plain-clothesmen  are  just  the  same, 
but  the  police  force  isn’t.  The  plain-clothesmen  are  the  same,  except  I dropped 
two  off.  I have  only  eight  where  there  were  ten. 

Q.  How  many  houses  of  prostitution  have  you  in  the  district,  Chief?  A. 
I couldn’t  tell  you  that ; there  is  a good  many. 

Q.  Twenty?  A.  I should  judge  there  is  more  than  that. 

Q.  Thirty?  A.  Just  as  an  estimate,  I should  think  it  was  between  twenty 
and  thirty;  there  might  not  be  that  many,  but  I think  there  are  about  that 
many. 

Q.  Can  any  one  open  a house  there,  any  one  go  down  and  open  a house 
for  the  purpose  of  prostitution?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that  any  one  could. 
I generally  want  to  know  who  they  are. 

Q.  How  do  you  look  them  up.  Chief?  A.  Well,  they  generally  come;  I 
don’t  have  to  look  them  up ; they  generally  come  and  inquire  about  it  before  they 
rent  a place. 

Q.  Do  you  sometimes  take  the  judgment  of  the  real  estate  man  who  rents 
the  place?  A.  Never,  sir. 

Q.  A lease  could  be  signed  and  the  woman  not  given  permission  to  run 
the  place  because  she  wasn’t  the  right  sort  of  a woman;  that  could  happen? 
A.  That  could  happen. 

Q.  It  hasn’t  happened  to  your  knowledge?  A.  I do  not  know  of  any 
lease  being  signed. 

Q.  How  many  new  places  have  been  opened  in  that  district  since  you  have 
been  chief?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  as  there  has  been  any  there  that  have 
opened  up ; there  are  some  changing  hands.  It  was  full  when  I came  there, 
and  it  is  full  yet,  except  they  have  been  moved  off  of  Eighth  Street. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a record  of  all  the  girls  down  there?  A.  No,  sir;  I do 
not.  I attempted  to  and  I would  about  as  soon  keep  tab  on  a flock  of  pigeons; 
you  cannot  keep  track  of  them. 

Q.  Cannot  keep  track  of  them?  A.  No,  sir;  you  cannot. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  an  innocent  girl  to  be  lured  down  there  and 
practically  kept  a captive?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  it  would  be  possible. 

Q.  It  wouldn’t  be  possible?  A.  I don’t  think  there  is  a landlady — I will 
say  this  for  the  people  down  there — I don’t  think  there  is  a landlady  who  would 
do  that. 

Q.-  Do  you  require  that  in  those  houses  the  inmates  submit  to  medical 
examination  at  regular  periods?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  it  should  be  found  that  those  girls,  or  the  inmates  of  those  houses, 
had  some  disease  which  they  were  spreading  among  the  men  of  your  town, 
you  think  that  that  is  none  of  your  business  as  Chief  of  Police?  A.  Well,  I 
have  never  made  an  investigation  of  that  end  of  the  business. 

Q.  You  don’t  care  what  goes  on  down  in  the  district?  A.  Well,  I have 
regulations  there,  and  whenever  they  abide  by  them,  why  I don’t  bother  them. 

Q.  You  haven’t  so  far  had  any  reports  that  would  cause  you  to  bother 
the  Victor  Hotel,  the  Cliff  House,  the  Park,  or  the  rest  of  them?  A.  Well, 
I have  watched  the  Park  Hotel  more  than  any  other.  I have  stationed  men 
hack  and  front  and  see  that  nobody  went  up  there.  It  don’t  take  the  police 
very  long  to  scare  those  men  and  women  away'  from  a place,  fellows  that  do 
that  kind  of  business ; they  are  pretty  careful ; they  don’t  want  to  be  around 
where  is  a chance  of  being  caught. 

Q.  Is  it  a fact  that  the  Park  Hotel  is  watched  more  than  any  other  place? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  Victor  house  isn’t  looked  after  so  much?  A.  There  hasn’t  been 
so  much  complaint  about  the  Victor  as  the  Park. 

Q.  You  saw  the  card  here  that  the  girl  May  gave  to  one  of  the  girl  wit- 
nesses? A.  I heard  her  testify  that  she  wrote  that  card. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  justifies  you  in  taking  any  action  against  those 
hotels?  A.  Well,  I think  it  does,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  action  are  you  going  to  take.  Chief?  A.  Well,  we  yvill  be  a 


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589 


little  more  careful  about  this  No.  Ill;  I never  heard  a complaint  so  much 
about  111.  I had  occasion  here  about  two  weeks  ago  to  go  up  to  that  woman’s 
place,  and  I went  up  there,  and  I was  all  through  her  place ; she  must  have 
eighteen  or  twenty  rooms,  and  she  has  them  rented  out,  she  told  me,  to  fellows, 
and  she  told  me  who  some  of  the  fellows  were,  and  I knew  them ; and  she 
told  me  she  had  all  of  her  rooms  rented  out,  and  I didn’t  think  that  she  was 
putting  on  any  stuff  up  there. 

Q.  Chief,  have  you  ever  heard  of  the  “call  system”  before  tonight?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  known  that  it  existed  here  in  Springfield?  A.  Well,  I have 
heard  it  has ; yes  sir. 

Q.  That  there  were  girls  called  from  flats  and  hotels?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  some  of  those  girls  worked  in  the  daytime?  A.  Yes,  sir;  some 

of  them  were  married  women  around  the  home. 

Q.  And  they  were  part  of  the  call  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  in  Springfield  are  part  of  that  system. 
Chief,  in  your  opinion?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you;  I have  no  idea. 

Q.  Several  hundred,  would  you  say?  A.  I wouldn’t  be  justified  in  saying 
several  hundred ; it  may  be  that,  but  I have  no  idea. 

Q.  It  would  be  just  guess  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That,  in  a way,  is  a,  more  vicious  form  of  prostitution  in  your  judg- 

ment than  the  segregated  district?  A.  Yes,  sir;  far  more. 

Q.  Why  is  that  form  of  prostitution  permitted?  A.  You  cannot  get  at 
it  by  law ; you  cannot  regulate  it. 

Q.  Is  it,  or  is  it  not,  your  opinion  that  one  way  of  getting  at  it  would  be 
to  close  shady  flats  and  hotels?  A.  I am  here  to  find  out  and  to  try  and  find 
out  some  way  by  which  you  can  do  that.  I am  glad  I was  called  here.  Now, 
I don’t  understand.  Governor,  how  you  can  close  up  a boarding  house.  We 
might  arrest  this  woman  and  convict  her  of  having  some  girls  there,  but  if 
she  stops  that  I cannot  see  how  you  can  stop  her  from  running  a boarding 
house. 

Q.  If  she  runs  a decent  place  you  cannot  stop  her,  but  we  don’t  contend 
that  she  runs  a decent  place.  A.  If  you  convict  her  now  on  the  evidence 
you  have  got  and  she  never  does  the  like  again,  you  cannot  stop  her. 

Q.  Chief,  you  admit  you  have  this  call  system  here,  with  a lot  of  Spring- 
field  women  and  girls,  and  these  hotels  and  flats  are  part  of  the  system?  A. 
We  will  admit  they  are  part  of  the  system.  What  I want  to  get  at  is  how 
to  stop  it.  If  you  will  just  tell  me  the  way  to  do  it,  I will.  If  we  stop  that 
system,  I cannot  understand  how  we  can  stop  them  from  running  a boarding 
house  right  straight  along.  It  is  a pretty  hard  matter.  Governor.  The  testimony 
you  have  here  tonight  when  you  get  before  a Circuit  Court  you  could  get  a 
conviction  once  in  a while,  but  there  is  testimony  a hundred  times  stronger 
than  that,  and  they  turn  them  loose. 

Q.  Is  it  your  reason  for  police  inactivity  that  the  courts  won’t  convict 
alter  you  arrest  them?  A.  If  you  go  through  what  we  go  through  and  see 
the  cases  we  fall  down  on,  a man  would  lose  heart  after  a while. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Now,  Chief,  let  me  ask  you  a . question;  What  is 
the  license  fee  in  the  Citv  of  Springfield  for  the  privilege  of  running  a saloon? 
A.  Yes,  $500. 

Q.  As  Chief  of  Police  and  one  of  the  officers  of  the  City  of  Springfield,  and 
as  a resident  of  the  City  of  Springfield,  I suppose  you  are  interested  in  the 
revenue?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  would  you  be  interested  in  finding  out  how  you  could  increase  the 
revenue  of  the  city  to  the  tune  of  several  thousand  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  should  find  out  that  the  City  of  Springfield  was  entitled  to  such 
additional  revenue,  you  would  give  it  to  them,  would  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  let  me  ask  why  the  United  States  government  is  able  to  find 
certain  places  and  compel  the  owners  or  proprietors  of  such  places  to  take  a 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


government  license  out,  and  yet  your  license  officers  of  the  City  of  Springfield 
don’t  find  the  same  places  and  compel  the  same  people  to  pay  into  the  coffers 
of  the  City  of  Springfield  the  money  for  a city  license?  A.  They  wouldn’t  be 
allowed  a license  anyhow,  a city  license,  but  they  have  all  got  strict  instructions 
not  to  sell  any  intoxicating  liquors,  and  I don’t  think  there  is  but  very  few 
of  them,  if  any,  that  have  ever  done  it. 

Q.  Now  let  me  ask  you.  Chief,  when,  if  at  all,  did  you  communicate  wdth 
the  officers  of  the  United  States  government  to  find  out?  A.  I never  did. 

Q.  Now,  let  me  ask  you.  Chief,  why  did  you  or  some  one  serving  you 
never  find  out  all  the  government  licenses  which  had  been  issued  here  in  the 
City  of  Springfield  and  compare  them,  compare  the  government  licenses  with  a 
number  of  city  licenses  issued?  A.  I never  had  occasion  to  because  one  of 
the  rules  of  the  sporting  houses  is  that  they  are  not  allowed  to  sell  liquor, 
and  if  I catch  them  I fine  them  the  first  time,  and  the  next  time  I put  them  out 
of  business. 

Q.  Now,  Chief,  let  me  come  right  back  to  this;  You  say  you  put  them  out 
of  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  what  would  be  the  object  of  any  keeper  of  any 
house  such  as  we  have  been  discussing  here  this  evening;  what  would 
be  the  object  of  the  keeper  of  such  an  institution  donating  to  the  United 
States  Government  $20  just  for  the  purpose  of  being  a good  fellow?  A. 

1 couldn’t  tell  you  what  the  object  would  be. 

Q.  You  couldn’t  imagine  what  the  object  would  be?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  would  think  if  a man  or  woman  paid  into  the  coffers  of  the 
United  States  Government  the  sum  of  $20  for  a government  license  that 
it  would  be  just  for  the  purpose  of  donating  that  sum  to  the  govern- 
ment, or  would  it  be  for  the  purpose  of  selling  something?  A.  I should 
think  it  would  be  to  protect  them  against  the  government. 

Q.  And  the  protection  would  be  when  the  government  officers  come 
in  and  found  that  liquor  was  being  sold,  the  government  license  would 
offer  the  protection,  wouldn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  if  the  government  officers  can  find  them  and  impose  a license 
of  that  kind,  is  it  any  more  difficult  for  the  officers  of  the  City  of  Spring- 
field  to  find  it?  A.  I shouldn’t  think  so;  I shouldn’t  think  that  a gov- 
ernment officer — I never  heard  of  any  one  going  there  to  find  out.  This 
is  the  first  I knew  that  they  had  one. 

Q.  We  have  ascertained  that  here  this  evening.  There  isn’t  any  doubt 
about  that,  and  I don’t  think  you  have  any.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  Chief,  you  haven’t  ever  checked  up  to  find  out  how  many 
government  licenses  were  issued  in  your  city?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Then  isn’t  your  city  interested  in  finding  out?  A.  I think  they 
would  want  to  know,  something  about  it,  whether  they  had  a license  or 
not. 

Q.  And  if  they  did  not  have  a license  and  were  selling  liquor,  then 
we  are  not  playing  fair  with  the  people  who  are  paying  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  people  who  are  paying  it  are  entitled  to  an  exclusive  privilege? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  if  some  are  taking  that  privilege  without  paying  for  it  they 
are  not  being  treated  right;  I mean  the  ones  who  are  paying?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  man  who  pays  $500  is  practically  a tax  col- 
lector to  the  tune  of  $500?  A.  \es,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  are  you  going  to  check  up  on  this  license  proposition? 
A.  I will  check  up  and  find  out  who  has  a government  license.  I can 
go  over  to  the  government  office  and  find  that  out  very  easih-. 

Q.  I think  if  you  follow  that  lead  you  will  find  a lot  of  things  that 
you  evidently  don’t  know  down  there.  We  could  help  you  some  if  you 
think  you  need  it.  A.  We  can  find  out  if  they  have  a license,  and  when 
they  have  got  it.  Of  course,  they  couldn’t  get  a city  license. 

Q.  If  they  couldn’t  get  a license,  what  is  the  treatment  of  the  man 
who  can  get  a license  and  pay  $500  for  the  privilege;  do  you  think  if  you 


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591 


let  A sell  liquor  in  the  city  of  Springfield  without  paying  $500,  and  you 
tax  B $500  for  that  privilege,  that  you  are  playing  fair  with  B?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  I don’t  think  so,  either;  I think  there  is  a good  remedy  and  that 
it  should  result  in  something  down  here.  I am  not  criticising  the  sale 
of  liquor  or  the  granting  of  licenses,  but  I think  that  all  men  should  be 
treated  alike.  A.  That  is  right,  sir,  exactly. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  Chief,  you  heard  some  time  ago  that  the  district  in  Chicago  was 
closed,  the  segregated  district?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Following  the  closing  of  that  district,  did  any  girls  come  to 
Springfield?  A.  There  were  three  or  four  I heard  of  that  came  here; 
four  or  five.  I don’t  just  remember;  not  very  many.  We  expected  quite 
a few,  but  to  my  knowledge  there  were  only  a few. 

Q.  Did  you  station  any  officers  at  the  depot  to  pass  them  on  to 
the  next  town  when  they  came  to  Springfield?  A.  No,  sir;  but  we 
found  out  as  quick  as  they  came  here  and  we  locked  them  up,  but  we 
didn’t  meet  any  of  them  at  the  train.  I was  just  interested  in  getting 
them  out  of  town;  that  is  all. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Chief,  what  does  your  system  of  humanity 
think  of  driving  a woman  out  of  one  town  and  out  of  another  town;  where 
would  you  and  I figure  this  unfortunate  woman  would  go  some  evening 
after  the  chief  of  police  of  each  town  had  driven  them  out,  and  driven 
them  some  more;  what  does  our  present  system  offer  as  a solution  for 
that?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  room  in  your  town  for  them,  have  you?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  They  haven’t  any  room  for  them  in  my  town?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  consequently  the  system  as  we  know  it  today  means  simply 
driving  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  place  to  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  idea  of  the  wisdom  of  segregating  these  women? 
A.  I think  that  is  the  best  way  to  control  them. 

Q.  You  think  it  is?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  merely  closing  them  up  and  driving  them  doesn’t  pos- 
sibly cure  the  evil?  A.  No,  it  makes  them  just  an  outcast  in  the  world 
and  they  just  go  from  one  place  to  another. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  complaints 
against  the  Majestic  Hotel?  A.  No,  sir;  not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  You  know  where  it  is  located?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  never  have  had  an  investigation  of  that  made?  A.  No; 
all  of  the  hotels  are  run  on  the  boarding  house  order. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  Did  you  say.  Chief,  that  you  watched 
the  Park  Hotel  more  than  any  other  hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I have  had 
more  complaints  about  that  hotel. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  closed  that  hotel?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  raided  it?  A.  I have  taken  couples  out  of  there 
sometimes. 

Q.  Have  convictions  followed  the  taking  out  of  those  people?  A. 
No;  never  tried  them.  They  were  people  that  I gave  a talking  to  and 
told  to  go  and  sin  no  more. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Wouldn’t  it  be  better  to  close  the  place, 
Chief?  A.  I didn’t  know  how  we  could  close  it. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  WOODARD:  Close  it  as  a nuisance.  If  y^-i  ' o 1 niert 
like  that  with  those  people,  they  will  do  it  again.  Declare  it  a nuisance 
and  close  it.  • 

(Witness  excused.) 

Mr.  Charles  G.  Wineteer’s  Testimony. 

CHARLES  G.  WINETEER,  called  as  a witness  herein,  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  .\.  Charles  G.  Vv'inctcer. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Real  estate  and  loans. 

Q.  Are  you  the  owner  of  the  property  upon  which  is  located  the  Park 
Hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  own  the  Park  Hotel?  A.  I own  the  building;  ves,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom  do  you  rent  it?  A.  Rent  the  dovvnstairs  to  the  Blue  Ribbon 
Brewery,  and  the  upstairs  to  a man  by  the  name  of  .\dkin.son. 

Q.  What  business  is  Mr.  Adkinson  in?  A.  Adkinson  is  a sort  of  con- 
tractor. 

Q.  Where  is  this  property?  A.  That  is  at  No.  123  North  Fourth  Street. 

Q.  Where  are  the  rooms  of  the  hotel?  A.  L'pstairs. 

Q.  What  floor?  A.  The}-  are  upstairs  over  the  saloon;  eighteen  rooms 
there. 

Q.  And  you  rent  to  how  many  tenants?  A.  The  two  tenants? 

Q.  How  much  a month  do  you  get  from  the  Blue  Ribbon  people?  A.  1 

think  that  lease  is  $80  now. 

Q.  And  how  much  a month  do  you  get  from  Adkinson?  A.  Seventy- 

five. 

Q.  That  is  all  that  you  get  directly  or  indirectly  for  the  use  of  that  build- 
ing? .A..  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  that  the  Park  Hotel  was  on  the  suspect  list 
in  the  Chief  of  Police’s  office  here  in  Springfield?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  known  that  it  was  rated  by  the  Chief  of  Police  here  as  a 

very  suspicious  place?  A.  Well,  I will  give  you  the  story  now,  it  is  very 
short : About  six  months  ago  the  chief  called  me  up,  whom  I have  known  ever 
since  I was  a boy,  and  said  he  wanted  to  talk  to  me.  Of  course  1 am  a 
very  busy  man  and  have  a good  deal  of  property,  about  thirty-six  pieces  of 
property  here  in  town,  and  I don’t  keep  very  close  touch  on  any  one  piece  of 
property,  so  I went  down  and  talked  to  John,  and  he  told  me  there  was  a 
complaint  against  the  upstairs  of  that  building.  Well  I says,  “Now,  John,  if 
things  ain’t  going  right  there,  go  after  them  and  close  them  up,”  and  he  says, 
‘‘I  think  it  would  be  a good  idea  for  you  to  go  up  there  and  talk  to  those 
people.”  I went  up  there  and  got  hold  of  Adkinson  and  his  wife;  they  have 
three  little  children,  and  I hadn’t  been  up  in  that  building  I don’t  think  in  a 

year,  and  I haven’t  been  up  there  since ; so  I told  them  there  was  a complaint 

against  the  way  the  business  was  being  conducted  there,  and  I asked  them 
whether  there  was  anything  to  it,  and  I says,  “I  will  tell  you,  I will  not  stand 
for  any  assignation  propositions,  and  if  there  is  anything  like  that  going  on  you 
have  got  to  cut  it  out.”  We  had  quite  a conversation  about  it,  and  I went 

back  and  reported  to  the  chief  what  I had  done.  That  is  the  last  I have  ever 

heard  of  anything. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  That  was  along  in  the  winter,  about 
December. 

Q.  Has  the  place  been  watched  since  then  by  the  police?  A.  Not  that 
I know  of. 

Q.  The  chief  never  called  you  up  again?  A.  No. 

Q.  And  that  was  the  first  time  you  had  ever  been  called  up  in  regard  to 
the  place?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  know  that  it  is  still  on  the  suspect  list?  A.  Yes. 


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593 


Q.  That  it  was  still  being  watched  by  the  police  officers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  a man  of  considerable  means,  Mr.  Wineteer?  A.  Well,  mod- 
erately so ; yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  entirely  dependent  for  your  bread  and  butter  on  this 
$155?  A.  I am  not  worrying  about  that.  If  those  people  are  not  the  right 
kind  of  people,  I want  to  know  it,  and  I will  get  somebody  else. 

Q.  How  long  have  those  people  been  in  there?  A.  About  three  years,  as 
far  as  I can  remember.  They  had  no  lease. 

Q.  Have  they  a lease  now?  A.  No,  sir;  tenancy  by  the  month. 

Q.  How  did  that  come  about,  Mr.  Wineteer?  Is  that  the  rule  here  of 
renting  property  in  Springfield?  A.  That  is  the  way  I rent  all  the  flat  build- 
ings. The  downstairs  is  rented  to  the  brewery,  and  I usually  give  them  a five 
or  a ten  year  lease,  but  all  the  flats  are  what  are  called  open  leases. 

Q.  Then  would  you  say,  Mr.  Wineteer,  that  you  are  surprised  tonight  to 

learn  that  the  Park  Hotel  has  this  reputation?  A.  I am  very  much  surprised 

to  learn  that  the  representations  are  as  they  appear  to  be  here. 

Q.  What  are  you  going  to  do  about  it?  A.  I will  go  and  talk  to  them. 

Q.  You  talked  to  them  last  December?  A.  Yes,  but  I don’t  believe 

in  throwing  people  out  of  any  place;  but  I will  promptly  get  them  out  of  there, 
if  possible.  I do  not  believe  in  using  them  any  way  rough  or  taking  advantage 
of  the  situation.  I am  not  absolutely  positive  as  to  the  situation.  If  I were 
I might  say  some  harsh  words. 

Q.  Well,  about  what  would  it  take  to  convince  you,  Mr.  Wineteer,  that  the 
Park  Hotel  is  not  a bed  of  modesty  and  virtue?  A.  Well,  I haven’t  heard 
any  evidence  here  tonight ; in  fact,  I haven’t  heard  your  evidence  here.  I was 
in  the  back  of  the  room.  If  I had  positive  proof  of  it,  and  it  was  proven  beyond 
a reasonable  doubt. 

Q.  Here  is  the  proof,  Mr.  Wineteer;  The  Chief  of  Police — and  citizens 
in  Springfield  tell  us  that  he  is  a fine,  honorable,  honest  man — has  testified  that 
there  are  certain  hotels  in  Springfield  that  have  been  on  the  suspect  list,  hotels 
that  are  commonly  known  as  shady,  and  that  the  Park  Hotel  is  on  this  list. 
A.  I can  give  you  the  name  of  fifty  of  them,  if  you  want  them. 

Q.  You  know  he  has  been  watching  the  hotel  you  own?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

2.  And  the  tax-payers  are  paying  those  police  officers  to  watch  that 
hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  you  are  one  of  the  fine,  honorable  citizens  of  Springfield,  own- 
ing that  place,  and  renting  it  for  that  kind  of  a tenancy.  This  Committee  is 
not  here  to  prosecute,  least  of  all  to  persecute,  you  or  any  other  citizen.  The  Com- 
mittee merely  desires  to  know  if  you  were  familiar  with  the  use  to  which  your 
property  is  said  to  have  been  put?  A.  I don’t  know  anything  about  that; 
I didn’t  know  until  last  winter.  Excuse  me  for  a volunteered  expression, 
gentlemen,  but  I have  read  your  hearings  from  time  to  time  and  I am  heartily 
in  sympathy  with  your  movement.  I am  absolutely  against  assignation  houses; 
I am  against  them,  and  advocated  it  here  in  the  city  for  years ; and  I believe 
a sporting  house  district  properly  regulated  is  what  is  necessary,  and  I would 
be  one  man  in  this  town  to  take  off  my  coat  and  close  every  assignation  house 
in  it.  That  is  just  how  strong  I am,  and  that  is  an  open  declaration  on  that 
proposition,  because  I think  I can  answer  the  question  of  the  case  of  a fallen 
woman  in  one  word. 

Q.  And  that  is  what?  A.  I have  been  an  observer  all  my  life;  I have 
been  in  touch  with  all  classes  of  people  and  done  a great  deal  of  business  with 
them,  and  I think  I can  answer  that  in  one  word — man.  Men  are  the  causes 
of  fallen  woman.  They  decoy  them  into  these  places  night  after  night  and  day 
after  day  they  get  young  girls  and  take  them  into  assignation  houses  and 
ruin  them.  I know  what  you  gentlemen  are  after,  and  I am  with  you.  Any- 
thing I can  do  I am  here  to  do  it. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 


Q.  Who  rents  this  proposition?  A.  The  Park  Hotel? 
Q.  Yes.  A.  I rent  it. 


594  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Who  collects  the  rent?  A.  I collect  it  there  at  the  office. 

Q.  They  come  to  the  office?  A.  Yes,  come  to  the  office  and  pay  it. 

Q.  You  haven’t  been  there  in  several  months?  A.  I haven’t  been  in 
the  saloon  in  two  years,  and  I haven’t  been  in  the  hotel  over  twice  in  two 
years. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  are  taking  care  of  your  property?  A.  Well, 
I have  a man  that  goes  around  and  looks  after  that  a great  deal,  a paperer  and 
paper-hanger  and  general  utility  man  who  looks  after  that.  He  has  been  doing 
some  papering  and  painting  there  upstairs  now  in  the  last  two  weeks ; I just  gave 
him  his  orders  to  go  and  do  it,  and  he  does  it. 

Q.  You  didn’t  go  to  see  whether  it  was  really  needed?  A.  I take  his 
judgment  on  that.  I am  a very  busy  man. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Q.  Mr.  Wineteer,  suppose  it  were  a felony  for 
a man  to  own  property  that  was  being  used  for  purposes  of  prostitution.  Would 
you  take  a chance  of  renting  the  Park  Hotel  to  its  present  proprietors?  A. 
That  is  a pretty  hard  question  to  answer.  I haven’t  quite  enough  evidence  to 
satisfy  me  on  that  point.  I have  a suspicion. 

Q.  If  there  were  such  a law,  would  you  exercise  a little  more  caution 
in  finding  out  the  character  of  your  tenants  and  the  nature  of  the  business 
they  were  conducting?  A.  I believe  I wouldn’t  put  it  on  that  basis.  From  a 
moral  standpoint  I wouldn’t  rent  it  to  them.  The  question  of  punishment 
wouldn’t  interfere  with  me.  I think  more  of  the  moral  situation  than  I do  of 
court  punishment. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Q.  Mr.  Wineteer,  if  I understand  your  answer  to  the 
feovernor  correctly,  you  seem  to  want  the  same  strong  degree  of  evidence  to 
satisfy  you  that  is  necessary  to  secure  a conviction.  You  stated  just  a minute 
ago  that  you  wanted  to  be  satisfied  beyond  a reasonable  doubt.  While  that  is 
necessary  in  order  to  get  a jury  to  bring  in  a conviction  in  a criminal  case, 
it  isn’t — 

A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  required  in  a criminal  case. 

Q.  But  that  isn’t  the  degree  of  evidence  that  a man  ought  to  require  to 
satisfy  him  that  his  property  is  not  being  used  by  the  proper  people?  A. 
I don’t  know  as  it  would  be  necessary  to  go  that  far. 

Q.  If  it  became  necessary  to  satisfy  every  man  and  property  owner  that  his 
tenants  were  corrupt  beyond  a reasonable  doubt,  why  we  would  have  still 
worse  tenants  than  we  have  now.  The  average  land  o^vner,  who  is  a moral 
land  owner,  wants  the  tenant  to  satisfy  him  beyond  a reasonable  doubt  that  he 
is  moral.  A.  Well,  I want  to  be  fair  about  this,  gentlemen.  I shall  look  into 
this  matter  very  thoroughly  and  let  you  know  all  about  it. 

Q.  You  are  not  satisfied?  A.  I ain’t  worrUng  about  renting  my  building. 

Q.  You  can  rent  your  property,  your  building?  A.  Yes,  that  building. 
If  these  people  ain’t  the  right  land  of  people,  I would  much  rather  have  the 
right  kind  of  people. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  the  wrong  kind  of  people  pay  more  rent  than  the 
right  kind  of  people?  A.  Not  in  good  localities;  they  do  in  sporting  house 
districts.  Sporting  house  property  rents  high  as  a general  rule,  because  the 
owner  realizes  that  he  is  taking  chances,  because  if  a person  dies,  or  in  the 
case  of  a person  being  killed  in  a sporting  house  you  know  they  are  liable  under 
the  statute,  and  sporting  house  property  for  that  reason  is  high.  But  that 
property  is  not  sporting  house  property. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD;  Q.  Well,  didn’t  3'ou  hear  the  chief  testify  that 
there  were  couple  after  couple  caught  and  put  out?  A.  That  was  at  the 
time  he  notified  me ; there  was  a couple  put  out. 

Q.  Still  you  are  not  satisfied.  If  they  are  people  of  that  character, 
don’t  you  think  that  they  would  do  it  again?  A.  They  might. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


595 


Q.  It  is  a question  of  character.  All  they  want  is  a chance  again. 
,A.  If  the  State  of  Illinois  would  make  a law  and  make  it  absolute,  punish- 
'ment  in  the  penitentiary  for  life,  for  every  man  that  decoyed  or  caused, 
or  took  a woman  unmarried  with  him  into  a room  for  assignation  pur- 
poses, I think  you  would  stop  all  this  stuff. 


; EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  Don’t  you  think  we  could  stop  it  if  every 
lowner  of  property  took  care  that  he  didn’t  get  these  people  into  his 
property?  A.  Every  owner  won’t  do  it. 

: Q.  Every  owner  could  be  made  to  do  it.  A.  I don’t  know  of  any 

statute  that  would  make  him. 

I Q.  Oh,  yes,  there  is  a statute  there  now.  A.  Yes,  in  sporting  houses. 
I Q.  Yes,  but  there  is  a statute  preventing  the  renting  of  property  for 
limmoral  purposes.  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  true. 

(Witness  excused.) 

G.  J.  Little’s  Testimony. 

j G.  J.  LITTLE,  called  as  a witness,  having  been  first  duly  sworn, 
testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name,  please?  A.  G.  J. 
Little. 

Q.  And  your  business,  Mr.  Little?  A.  Real  estate. 

Q.  Are  you  the  owner  of  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located,  Mr.  Little?  A.  311  East  Adams  Street. 

Q.  Do  you  own  the  real  estate  and  the  building?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom  do  you  lease  that,  if  anyone?  A.  C.  W.  Venable. 

Q.  What  does  Mr.  Venable  pay  you  for  it?  A.  Pays  me  $150  a 

month;  that  includes  heat,  hot  and  cold  water,  and  a certain  amount  of 

janitor  service. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  told,  or  have  you  ever  heard,  that  the  Victor 
Hotel  is  on  the  suspect  list  in  the  office  of  the  Chief  of  Police  here? 
A.  I have  heard  in  a general  way  that  it  was,  yes. 

Q.  After  hearing  the  reports  that  the  Victor  Hotel  was  on  the 

' shady  list,  did  you  yourself  make  any  investigation  to  ascertain  if  that 
were  true  or  not?  A.  I have  talked  to  Mr.  Venable  about  it. 

Q.  You  have  talked  to  Mr.  Venable  about  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  He  said  he  was  not  running  an  immoral 

house  in  any  sense  of  the  word,  and  I believed  him. 

Q.  When  did  you  have  this  talk  with  him,  Mr.  Little?  A.  I talked 
with  him  several  times,  and  I talked  with  him  today. 

' Q.  On  each  occasion  he  assured  you  that  everything  was  proper 
there?  A.  He  assured  me  that  everything  was  running  proper.  Now, 
if  you  will  let  me  explain  a little  about  the  Victor  Hotel:  There  are 
■ about  thirty-four  rooms  up  there.  There  are  a lot  of  those  rooms  that 
are  in  suites  for  light  house-keeping,  -rented  to  men  and  ostensibly  to 
their  wives.  Now,  whether  the  men  are  married  that  rent  those  rooms, 
it  is  pretty  hard  for  Mr.  Venable  or  me  or  anyone  else  to  find  out,  but 
my  judgment  is  that  people  hunting  up  an  assignation  house  wouldn’t 
care  to  run  into  - a hotel  where  there  was  a number  of  families  lived. 
Some  of  them  have  children.  They  have  rented  that  house;  they  have 
run  that  house  on  that  plan  ever  since  they  have  been  there,  pretty  nearly 
I two  years  now.  Mr.  Venable  came  from  the  south  part  of  the  state,  mar- 
ried, and  bought  this  hotel,  and  I have  been  in  and  out  of  there,  and  I 
have  never  seen  anything  that  would  lead  me  to  believe  it  was  any  more 
of  an  assignation  house  than  any  other  hotel  in  the  city. 


S96 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  If  you  believed  that  that  property  was  being  used  for  immoral 
purposes,  you  would  stop  it?  A.  Stop  it. 

Q.  That  is,  you  would  have  nothing  more  to  do  with  your  tenant! 

A.  I would  stop  it. 

Q.  You  never  have  owned  property,  Mr.  Little,  that  was  used  foi 
immoral  purposes?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I have  owned  property  that  I knew 
was  used  for  immoral  purposes. 

Q.  You  have  owned  property  that  you  knew  was  used  for  immoral 
purposes?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  now  own  property  that  you  know  is  being  used  for  immoral 
purposes?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  do  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  once  own  the  property  at  711-J4  East  Jefferson  Street? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  at  713-^2  East  Jefferson  Street?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  now  own  that  property?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  property  now  used  for  immoral  purposes?  A.  I have 
every  reason  to  believe  it  is. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  sell  that  property,  Mr.  Little?  A.  About 
the  first  of  January. 

Q.  You  owned  it  up  to  the  first  of  January?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  sell  it?  A.  Mr.  Christian  Julliff,  of  Mexico, 
Missouri. 

Q.  And  do  you  pay  the  taxes  for  him  now?  A.  I paid  the  taxes  for 
last  year;  I don’t  pay  them  any  more. 

Q.  Then  you  have  no  interest  in  that  property  now?  A.  No  more 
than  a general  overseeing  of  the  property  for  Mr.  Julliff.  He  rented  the 
farm  that  I traded  for  this  year,  and  I rent  his  property  for  this  3'ear, 

Q.  But  you  do  manage  his  property  for  him  now;  that  is,  oversee  it 
and  collect  the  rents?  A.  In  a general  waj'.  I do  not  collect  the  rents. 

Q.  Last  year  when  you  owned  this  property  on  Jefferson  Street, 
how  much  rent  did  you  get  for  it?  A.  I had  it  leased. 

Q.  To  whom?  A.  E.  W.  Hitt,  Elijah  Hitt. 

Q.  What  did  Mr.  Hitt  do  with  that  property?  A.  He  rents  it  to 
somebody. 

Q.  He  rented  it  to  whom?  A.  Why,  he  rented  it  to  Gertrude  Smith, 
one  of  the  flats;  there  are  two  flats  there,  Gertrude  Smith  and  a iMrs. 
Hunt. 

Q.  They  had  sporting  houses?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I think  so. 

Q.  From  your  lease,  doctor,  how  much  money  did  j'ou  get?  A.  1 
got  $75  a month. 

Q.  For  each  flat?  A.  For  each  flat. 

Q.  That  is  $150  for  the  two?  A.  That  is,  I was  getting  that  when 
I sold  it. 

Q.  Now,  that  same  property  located  in  another  part  of  the  city 
would  have  rented  for  about  how  much,  doctor,  the  same  sort  of  a house 
or  flat  and  the  same  kind  of  real  estate?  A.  WTll,  I don’t  think  it 
would  rent  for  over  $50  apiece.  Now,  their  heat  was  furnished,  steam 
heat,  water  and  a certain  amount  of  janitor  service. 

Q.  During  the  time  you  owned  property'  in  the  tenderloin  district 
and  collected  the  rents  on  it,  did  you  feel  any  share  of  the  moral  respon- 
sibility for  the  kind  of  business  being  conducted  on  y'our  property?  A. 
I said  that  it  was  impossible  to  rent  it  to  moral  people.  Why'?  Because 
it  was  the  tenderloin  district.  I also  had  a piece  of  property  at  130  North 
Seventh  street.  Now,  three  times  in  the  last  three  y'ears_  the  city  has 
ordered  all  immoral  women  off  of  that  street.  The  last  time  they'  gave 
them  about  three  months  to  move  off.  iMy'  tenants  moved  one  door  south. 
The  building  stood  idle  for  months,  and  I find  it  impossible  to  rent  it  at 
all,  but  it  is  rented  now  presumably;  I think  to  moral  people.  The  man 
who  rents  the  saloon  on  the  first  floor  rents  the  second  floor,  he  and  his 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


597 


wife.  They  rent  rooms.  I have  no  special  knowledge  that  he  is  any- 
ithing  but  respectable.  On  the  third  floor  I rent  to  two  families.  The  three 

!ast  rooms  I rent  to  a man,  and  I don’t  think  he  uses  it  for  any  immoral 
urposes.  The  five  front  rooms  I rent  to  another  couple  and  they  rent  rooms 
gain.  Now,  from  Madison  to  Monroe  street  it  is  about  four  blocks,  and 
here  are  flats  all  over  the  business  properties,  and  when  you  move  out 
ne  set  of  tenants  you  get  another  about  the  same  class.  It  is  true  that 
hey  cannot  have  much  music  and  run  what  is  regularly  termed  a sporting 
ouse,  but  the  character  of  the  people  hasn’t  improved  but  very  little 
ince  the  first  of  January,  when  they  moved  the  immoral  people  on. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  between  what  numbered  streets,  doctor? 
_i.  Madison  and  Monroe,  four  blocks. 

' Q.  No,  I mean  the  numbered  streets.  Oh,  on  Seventh  Street;  130 
:North  Seventh  is  the  property  that  I did  own,  and  from  Madison  to 
.‘Monroe  was  the  order  that  was  issued,  passed  around.  A few  years 
ago  they  made  the  same  order  on  Washington  Street,  from  Second  to 
‘Ninth  Street;  and  they  changed  tenants,  but  the  people  that  moved  in 
were  just  about  on  a par  with  the  people  that  moved  out,  and  they  have 
remained  so.  , 1 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Would  you  mind  telling  the  Committee, 
doctor,  how  much  you  paid  for  the  property  at  711-54  East  Jefferson 
Street?  A.  At  711-54,  713  and  715,  that  was  bid  up  at  auction.  I had 
no  more  idea  of  buying  it  than  I have  of  going  to  Chicago  tonight,  and 
I owned  the  property  at  that  time  at  130  North  Seventh  Street,  that  is 
across  the  street  a little  bit  west  of  it,  and  I came  along  down,  and  the 
bidding  was  started  and  I bought  it.  The  east  part,  that  is  a blacksmith 
i:shop,  and  the  restaurant  with  a flat  above.  I bought  that  first,  and  then 
,I  bought  the  other.  It  cost  me  about  $23,000. 

Q.  What  year  was  that,  doctor?  A.  It  wasn’t  quite  five  years  ago. 
Q.  Five  years  ago?  A.  I cannot  exactly  tell,  but  about  four  years, 
:I  would  say. 

Q.  Is  that  district  changed  any  from  what  it  was  four  or  five  years 
ago?  A.  No,  sir;  not  for  the  better. 

Q.  Well,  for  the  worse?  A.  I cannot  say  that  it  has  changed  at 
all. 

Q.  What  I would  like  to  know,  doctor,  was  that  at  that  time  in  the 
heart  of  the  red-light  district?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  district  was  open  then?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Running  open  and  unmolested,  as  it  is  today?  A.  Yes,  sir.  . 
Q.  Why  were  you  able  to  get  that  at  a bargain;  why  was  it  put  up 
at  auction?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that  it  was  a bargain;  I wo;uld  be 
glad  to  believe  that  it  was  a bargain.  It  was  rented  for  $3,000  a year  at 
that  time.  I thought  it  was  a bargain,  but  the  way  the  property  has  been 
'since  then,  it  didn’t  satisfy  me  as  a bargain,  and  I traded  it  off. 

! SENATOR  JUUL:  Old  property?  A.  No,  it  was  comparatively 
inew  property,  52  by  157.  Now,  we  will  itemize:  The  saloon,  71154  East 
Jefferson  street,  at  that  time  was  running  at  $75  a month,  with  a lease  on 
lit,  and  the  upstairs,  71154,  the  lease  was  to  a brewery  company,  which  was 
•responsible,  and  71154  was  rented  to  the  saloonkeeper,  paying  $65  a month; 
and  then  the  rest  was  rented  for  $20,  and  then  the  next  flat  upstairs  was 
irented  for  about  $40,  and  the  downstairs  at  $30.  That  ought  to  make 
about  $3,000  a year,  and  I had  to  put  in  a furnace  and  heat  the  building, 
have  a janitor  and  buy  coal  and  run  the  thing,  and  the  class  of  tenants  I 
had  didn’t  ’take  care  of  the  plumbing,  stopped  it  up,  and  things  of  that 
cind. 

Q.  Well,  at  the  present  time,  doctor,  you  don’t  own  any  property 
that  is  being  used  for  immoral  purposes  with  the  exception,  possibly,  of 
the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  I don’t  consider  the  Victor  Hotel  is  used  for 
mmoral  purposes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  If  it  were,  doctor,  you  wouldn’t  have  any 
ibjection  to  owning  it?  A.  I am  agent  for  the  Smith  Hotel,  over  the 
.Heidelberg  saloon,  I don’t  own  it,  but  I am  agent  for  it. 


598  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  If  you  knew  the  Victor  Hotel  were  an  immoral  place,  would  you 
or  would  you  not  consider  it  any  of  your  business?  A.  I would  consider 
it  some  of  my  business. 

Q.  Did  you  not  buy  property  down  in  the  red-light  district  knowing 
it  to  be  that  kind  of  property?  A.  I knew  it  and  all  that,  but  I didn’t 
hold  onto  it. 

Q.  You  let  go  because  you  didn’t  think  you  had  a good  bargain?  A. 

I would  let  go  of  the  Victor  Hotel  if  it  didn’t  pay  me  to  own  it. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  The  morality  of  it,  doctor,  hasn’t  bothered  you? 
The  question  of  morality  or  immorality  hasn’t  bothered  you?  A.  I would 
prefer 

Q.  Answer  this  question.  The  moral  question  involved  as  to  whether 
the  property  was  used  for  moral  or  immoral  purposes  never  bothered  you. 
and  if  it  did  it  didn’t  start  to  bother  you  until  last  January,  when  you  parted 
with  the  property?  A.  It  started  before  that  time. 

Q.  It  did?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  But  you  retained  it?  A.  Because  I couldn’t  sell  it. 

Q.  And  you  collected  the  money  and  deposited  it  in  the  bank  and 
it  was  good  money  as  far  as  you  were  concerned?  A.  Yes.  Now,  then. 

I did  it  because  I was  compelled  to.  If  I tried  to  rent  it  to  respectable 
people,  I couldn’t  rent  it  to  respectable  people. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  long  does  your  lease  run  to  the  Victor 
Hotel,  doctor?  A.  It  runs  three  years. 

Q.  Three  years  from  date?  A.  No;  from  the  date  Mr.  Venable 
bought  the  furniture.  When  I built  the  hotel,  about  five  years  ago,  six  or 
seven  years  ago,  I rented  it  to  a kirs.  Clark,  and  she  ran  it  down  to  the 
time  she  sold  out  to  Mr.  Venable. 

Q.  His  lease  expires  when?  A.  About  a year. 

Q.  About  a year  from  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  the  present  indications,  you  will  renew  the  lease?  A.  Well, 
I haven’t  passed  on  that  j'et.  It  is  a 3^ear  off.  I think  Mr.  Venable  is 

trying  to  conduct  business  in  the  right  kind  of  way. 

Q.  What  you  have  heard  here  today  hasn’t  changed  your  mind?  A, 
I think  it  is  a put-up  job;  I think  they  could  put  up  the  same  job  on  any 
other  hotel  in  town. 

Q.  You  think  the  Chief  of  Police  is  putting  up  a job  on  the  \ ictor 
when  he  says  he  has  had  it  on  his  suspect  list?  A.  He  has  complaints, 
and  anybody  can  make  complaints. 

SENATOR  JLTLTL:  Doctor,  was  it  a “put-un  job”  on  that  property 
you  owned  in  the  red-light  district?  A.  What? 

Q.  You  say  it  is  a put-up  job  in  the  matter  of  this  hotel.  Now,  this 
was  property  that  you  owned.  Was  that  a put-up  job,  or  was  that  really 

shady,  the  other  property  we  are  discussing?  You  said  it  was  in  the  red- 

light  district  and  it  wouldn’t  rent  for  moral  puposes.  A.  I took  that  hotel 
about  five  or  six  years  ago.  I bought  the  lot  and  built  the  house  and  put 
a blacksmith  shop  on  the  first  floor  and  two  flats  on  the  second  floor, 
and  I tried  to  rent  that  to  moral  people,  but  I couldn’t;  they  wouldn’t  live 
there.  I offered  to  rent  it  for  any  price;  they  wouldn’t  .go  there. 

Q.  Yes,  there  is  a situation  sometimes  where  on  account  of  locality 
or  on  account  of  certain  people  taking  possession  of  a district  that  that 
happens.  A.  Yes.  The  two  buildings  south  of  my  property  there— 
they  couldn’t  rent  it — some  people  went  in  there  and  tore  out  all  the  pipes 
and’  everything  else  and  sold  it  for  junk.  It  stood  idle  there  for  about  two 
years. 

Q.  And  you  couldn’t  stand  the  strain?  A.  The  man  who  owned  it 
gquldn’t  stand  it,  and  they  traded  it  off. 

SENATOR  WOODARD;  Do  you  think  this  Committee  is  assisting 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


599 


the  administration  of  the  city  here  in  putting  up  a job?  A.  The  Com- 
mittee is  getting  a good  deal  of  free  advertising;  I have  my  own  personal 
opinion  about  it. 

Q.  How  do  you  arrive  at  that  conclusion?  A.  Well,  I don’t  suppose 
you  are  paying  for  it;  they  charge  10  cents  a line  for  advertising  for  us, 
and  you  wouldn’t  be  able  to  go  very  far  with  the  amount  of  money  that 
the  state  has  appropriated. 

Rev.  John  R.  Golden’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  R.  GOLDEN,  called  as  a witness  herein,  having  been  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

! EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

’ CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  R.  Golden. 

Q.  And  your  business,  Mr.  Golden?  A.  I am  a preacher,  minister 
of  the  West  Side  Christian  Church. 

Q.  Here  in  Springfield?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  a hotel  known  as  the  Victor  Hotel?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I have. 

Q.  Where  is  it  located,  Dr.  Golden?  A.  Well,  I couldn’t  give  the 
exact  location  of  it,  but  I have  heard  of  it,  and  heard  the  name. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  street  it  is  on?  A.  No,  sir,  I couldn’t  say. 

Q.  In  what  connection  have  you  heard  of  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Well, 
I have  heard  of  the  general  reputation  of  it  a number  of  ways;  I over- 
heard a conversation  here  in  Springfield  some  few  months  ago. 

Q.  About  how  long  ago  was  that,  doctor?  A.  I would  say  about 
two  months  ago,  something  near  that,  between  two  young  ladies. 

Q.  Where  did  this  conversation  take  place?  A.  In  one  of  the  stores.  I 
was  in  buying  a package,  and  as  I was  waiting  for  my  purchases,  there  were 
two  young  ladies  just  standing  close  where  I was  at  the  counter,  and  I over- 
heard a conversation  between  them. 

Q.  What  was  that  conversation,  as  you  remember  it?  A.  One  of  the 
young  ladies  had  a letter  in  her  hand,  which  was  the  first  that  I noticed,  and 
said  to  the  other  girl,  “Here  is  something  for  you  to  see,”  and  handed  the 
letter  over  to  the  other  girl ; and  I couldn’t  hear  all  the  conversation  that  passed, 
but  one  girl  said,  “I  have  a date  to  meet  him  at  the  Victor  Hotel,”  and  then  she 
laughed  and  said  to  the  other  girl,  “Do  you  ever  go  to  the  Victor  Hotel?”  and 
the  girl  said,  “Yes.” 

Q.  How  old  were  those  girls,  doctor?  A.  My  judgment  would  be  that 
they  were  perhaps  eighteen  or  nineteen  years  old,  young  ladies. 

Q.  You  believed  that  they  were  doing  something  more  than  jesting?  A. 
'{  My  opinion  was  they  were;  yes,  sir. 

' Q.  Were  they  nice-looking  girls,  well-dressed,  well  kept  up?  A.  Yes, 
they  were  very  nice-looking  girls ; they  wouldn’t  have  attracted  my  attention 
■ other  than  the  conversation  I overheard. 

Q.  Had  you  ever  seen  either  of  those  two  girls  before?  A.  Not  that 
I know  of. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  either  of  them  since?  A.  No,  sir;  I have  not. 
i Q.  On  any  other  occasions  have  you  heard  of  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Ex- 
cept in  some  general  reports  at  times  that  it  was  a shady  hotel. 

I Q.  Have  you  any  other  evidence,  Dr.  Golden,  that  you  desire  to  give  this 
Committee?  A.  Well,  I could  repeat  an  instance  that  happened  last  fall;  I had 
, been  interested  in  some  investigations  of  Springfield.  I have  been  president 
; of  the  local  Vigilance  Association,  and  I had  understood  that  there  were 
! several  of  the  rooming  houses  or  hotels  on  Fourth  Street  that  were  questionable, 
and  one  evening  just  prior  to  the  Woodmen’s  Convention  I,  in  company  with 
two  other  men,  walked  down  along  Fourth  Street,  and  just  north  of  the  St. 
j,  Nicholas  Hotel,  in  the  block  just  north  of  Jefferson,  two  men  were  accosted 
by  a girl  that  came  out  of  one  of  those  rooming  hotels,  and  one  of  the  gentle- 
men talked  to  her,  and  then  she  came  up  to  where  the  other  two  were,  and 


GOO  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


stated  that  there  were  plenty  of  girls,  she  could  get  as  many  girls  as  was 
wanted. 

Q.  What  hotel  was  it,  doctor?  A.  I couldn’t  say  as  to  which  one  she 
came  out  of,  because  it  was  at  night,  and  she  came  out  ahead  of  us,  and  I am 
not  familiar  with  the  numbers  of  the  doors,  and  I couldn’t  say  positively;  but 
it  was  one  of  three  or  four  doors  that  opened  on  Fourth  Street  just  about 
half  a bock  north  of  Jefferson  and  just  inside  of  the  railroad  tracks. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  the  “call  girl”  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  that  system?  A.  Well,  two  men  that  had 
done  some  investigation  for  our  Vigilance  Committee  were  instrumental  in 
investigating  the  hotel  on  Monroe  Street  just  opposite  the  weather  bureau — 
I think  it  goes  by  the  name  of  the  Normal  Hotel — and  that  case  was  tried 

in  the  Circuit  Court  recently,  and  the  lady  convicted,  and  our  man  had  visited 

that  place  at  times  and  had  found  a lady  with  a call  list  of  girls  in  the  com- 
munity that  she  called  for  service. 

Q.  Did  you  attach  that  call  list  or  keep  it?  A.  The  men  who  were  there 
got  some  of  the  numbers. 

Q.  They  didn’t  keep  the  entire  list?  A.  I think  not. 

Q.  What  were  the  names  of  those  men ; are  they  in  Springfield  now? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  their  names?  A.  Mr.  B.  L.  Gibson,  and  Mr.  Blackford,  I 
cannot  just  tell  you  his  initials ; I can  get  him  over  in  a few  moments. 

Q.  Will  you  produce  these  gentlemen  at  our  meeting  tomorrow?  A.  If 
they  are  in  town.  Mr.  Gibson  is  a life  insurance  man  and  out  of  the  citj’ 
some. 

Q.  If  he  is  in  town,  bring  him  here  tomorrow.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  a copy  of  this  call  list.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  these  men  tell  you,  or  have  you  knowledge  from  other  sources,  how 
many  girls  and  women  are  involved  in  this  so-called  call  system  in  Springfield? 
A.  No;  it  would  be  only  just  a guess;  though  my  judgment,  from  the  informa- 
tion I have  had  from  these  two  or  three  men  that  served  on  my  committee, 
I should  judge  the  list  is  quite  large. 

Q.  In  this  system  are  girls  of  all  classes  involved?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  call  girl  system  is  the  greatest  menace  to 
your  city?  A.  I think  it  is. 

Q.  A greater  menace  even  than  the  segregated  district?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  In  the  segregated  district  in  Springfield  there  seems  to  be  no  provision 
for  medical  examination ; do  j ou  consider  that  that  lack  of  medical  attention 

is  responsible  for  the  spread  of  certain  diseases  here;  has  that  ever  been 

brought  to  your  attention?  A.  Yes,  I have  talked  with  some  of  the  officials 
about  it  numbers  of  times. 

Q.  What  has  seemed  to  be  the  sentiment  among  them  on  that  score?  A. 
Well,  as  near  as  I could  express  it,  it  was  a necessary  evil  and  to  be  let  alone 
largely. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  any  physicians  regarding  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  they  tell  j-ou?  A.  They  all  felt  there  ought  to  be  inspection. 

Q.  Did  they  make  any  other  statement  than  that?  A.  Yes,  sir;  they  have 
made  repeated  statements  concerning  the  prevalence  of  disease  among  men 
of  the  community. 

Q.  Did  they,  or  did  they  not,  say  there  was  a wide  prevalence?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  An  unusually  wide  prevalence?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  has  been  the  opinion 
of  the  physicians  generally. 

Q.  The  opinion  of  all  those  with  whom  you  have  talked?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
I might  say  that  I overheard  a conversation  also  on  an  interurban  car  coming 
into  the  city  some  two  or  three  months  ago,  between  two  men,  one  of  them 
raising  the  question  with  the  other  man  as  to  where  he  was  going  to  stay.  I 
didn’t  hear  the  name  of  the  place,  but  the  other  man  says,  “It  is  a rooming 
house?”  and  he  said,  “Yes,  about  two  blocks  from  the  square.”  And  the  man 
says,  “Do  you  have  to  be  careful  about  it?”  He  says,  “No,  you  can  bring  into 
the  room  anything  you  please.” 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


601 


Q.  Has  an  attempt  ever  been  made,  doctor,  to  close  the  shady  hotels  and 
flats  that  this  Committee  is  informed  are  a part  of  this  great  network  of  the 
call  girl  system?  A.  So  far  as  I know  about,  the  only  attempt  last  fall,  the 
‘vigilance  committee  took  up  the  investigation  of  the  vice  commission  to  try 
to  bring  it  to  the  attention  of  the  people.  We  gathered  some  facts  concerning 
the  number  of  houses  of  prostitution,  the  number  of  names,  and  had  an 
abstract  made  of  the  people  who  had  titles  to  this  property,  as  far  as  was 
possible,  and  also  made  some  investigation  of  the  rooming  houses,  but  we  never 
could  get  sufficient  sentiment  aroused  to  try  to  launch  a campaign,  and  never 
, could  get  sufficient  sentiment  in  the  official  circles  to  carry  an  investigation  very 
, far. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  your  present  Chief  of  Police,  doctor?  A.  I like 
: him  very  much  as  a man,  but  I think  he  could  do  a great  more  as  an  official 
, than  he  is  doing. 

Q.  The  Chief  said  tonight  that  he  was  willing  to  do  something.  Are  you 
willing  to  co-operate  with  him  ? A.  Certainly.  I shall  be  pleased  to  do  all  I 
I can.  I think  he  understands  that. 

SENATOR  JUUL ; Mr.  Chairman,  if  there  isn’t  anything  pressing  before 
us,  it  is  12  o’clock,  and  I move  that  we  adjourn  until  tomorrow  at  10  o’clock. 

Whereupon  the  Committee  adjourned  until  10  o’clock  A.  M.,  Fri- 
day, April  25,  1913. 


SESSION  XXII 


Springfield  inquiry  continued.  Victor  Hotel  proprietor  re- 
called for  further  examination.  Owner  of  property  used  for  im- 
moral purposes  explains  that  his  lease  runs  to  a brewing  company, 
which  sublets  it.  Girl  workers  testify  to  wages  and  working  con- 
ditions in  shoe  factory,  watch-parts  factory,  retail  stores,  and  do- 
mestic service.  Factory  superintendent  for  International  Shoe  Co. 
disputes  testimony  given  by  his  employes.  Employers  examined. 
Testimony  of: 

C.  W.  Venable,  lessee  and  proprietor  Victor  Hotel; 

I David  L.  Phillips,  property  owner; 

Mary  Barnes,  employe  of  the  Boston  Store; 

Sylvia  Kane,  employe  of  the  Boston  Store; 

Agnes  McGill,  former  employe  of  the  Boston  Store  and  the 
International  Shoe  Co.; 

Pearl  Briggs,  former  employe  of  Dr.  Monroe,  D.D.S.,  and  of 
International  Shoe  Co.; 

Mr.  Charles  W.  Derby,  factory  superintendent  International 

! Shoe  Co.; 

li  Mr.  Fred  R.  Coates,  manufacturer  of  watch  material. 

i Springfield,  Illinois,  April  25,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 

Leland  Hotel. 

Ij  The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  notice.  All  members  being  pres- 

lient,  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

;C.  W.  Venable’s  Testimony  Resumed. 

' C.  W.  VENABLE,  recalled  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 

examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  were  sworn  last  night,  weren’t  you, 
Mr.  Venable?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Springfield,  Mr.  Venable?  A.  About 
eighteen  months. 

Q.  From  what  part  of  the  state  do  you  come?  A.  From  the  State 
of  Illinois,  Flora. 

Q.  What  had  been  your  business  up  to  the  time  of  your  coming  to 
Springfield?  A.  I was  in  the  fruit  business,  evaporating  business  and 
selling  apples. 

Q.  You  came  to  Springfield  to  engage  in  what  kind  of  business? 
A.  Well,  there  wasn’t  any  kind  in  particular,  just  something,  that  I 
thought  I could  make  money  in. 

Q.  You  are  interested  in  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  be  interested  in  that  hotel?  A.  Well,  I 
saw  it  advertised  and  I went  to  see  what  the  lady  held  it  at  and  asked 
her  what  she  wanted  for  it  and  she  told  me.  I was  looking  at  the  Angel 
restaurant  on  Adams  Street  and  figured  on  buying  that,  but  I thought 
it  was  too  much  money  to  put  in  the  place,  because  I would  have  to 
borrow  so  much  money  if  I bought  it,  and  this  place  could  be  bought, 
she  asked  twenty-five  hundred  dollars  for  the  Victor  Hotel. 

Q.  Did  she  tell  you  that  she  had  been  making  some  money  there? 
A.  Yes,  the  lowest  she  said  she  had  ever  made  was  a hundred  and  forty 
dollars  a month  clear. 


603 


604  Report  op  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  She  said  she  had  made  a hundred  and  forty  dollars  a month 
clear?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  had  she  had  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  About  six  years 
she  said. 

Q.  During  that  period  how  much  had  she  made?  A.  From  her 
statements  and  others,  nearly  thirteen  thousand  dollars  clear. 

Q.  That  statement  was  the  inducement  that  made  you  buy  it?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  paid  twenty-five  hundred  dollars  for  it?  A.  No,  I paid 
two  thousand;  I told  her  that  I would  give  her  two  thousand  dollars 
and  she  studied  over  it  a while  and  finally  took  it. 

Q.  Since  purchasing  that  hotel,  have  you  offered  to  sell  it  at  any 

time?  A.  Yes,  I put  five  hundred  dollars  in  it  after  I bought  it;  I have 

offered  to  take  fifteen  hundred  dollars  and  sacrifice  a thousand  dollars  to 

get  rid  of  it. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  make  that  offer?  A.  In  fact,  I offered  to 
sell  it  back  to  this  lady.  I gave  her  two  thousand  dollars  and  I put 
five  hundred  in  right  after  I went  in  there,  and  I can  show  bills  for  the 
stuff  that  I put  in  there. 

Q.  You  offered  to  sell  it  to  her  back?  A.  Yes,  I have  offered  to 
sell  it  for  fifteen  hundred  dollars;  I have  offered  to  take  almost  anything 
to  get  out  of  it. 

Q.  If  you  can  get  out  of  it  without  an  entire  loss  you  want  to 
get  out  of  the  Victor  Hotel?  A.  Yes,  sir,  if  anybody  will  give  me  fifteen 
hundred  dollars  it  won’t  have  to  be  cash,  I will  say  that  for  it. 

Q.  Because  you  want  to  get  out  of  the  business?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  thank  you. 

Mr.  David  L.  Phillips’  Testimony. 

DAVID  L.  PHILLIPS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows : 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRM.\N. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  .A..  David  L. 
Phillips. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Printing  business. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  property  at  716  East  Jefferson  Street? 
A.  I am  part  owner  of  that  property,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  in  the  so-called  red-light  district  here?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  Is  that  property^  now  used  for  immoral  purposes?  A.  Not  to 
my  knowledge. 

Q.  Is  there  a house  on  it?  A.  A house,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  that  house  being  used  for?  .\.  I don’t  know;  I have 

never  been  in  it. 

Q.  Who  leases  that  house?  A.  It  is  by  an  agent  of  the  Conrad 

Seipp  Brewing  Company  that  pays  the  rent  on  it  all  the  time,  but  who 

is  in  there  or  what  they  are  doing,  from  my  own  knowledge  I could  not 
say. 

Q.  It  is  rented  through  an  agent  of  what  concern?  A.  The  Conrad 
Seipp  Brewing  Company  of  Chicago. 

Q.  They  lease  that  property  of  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  that,  a one  story  or  a two  story  building?  A.  A two- 
story. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  that  building  within  the  last  year?  Oh.  yes. 

I was  over  there  fixing  a roof  on  it  not  long  ago. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  for  what  purpose  it  is  being  used?  A.  Of 
course  everybody  has  an  idea. 

Q.  What  is  your  idea?  .A..  I have  an  idea  it  was  a fancy  house. 


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because  I don't  think  that  anybody  else  would  live  in  it;  still  I don’t 
^now  that  to  be  a fact,  it  is  simply  an  idea. 

Q.  How  much  rent  do  you  get  for  that  property?  ■ A.  Forty  dollars 
I month. 

Q.  That  is,  the  rent  is  paid  for  that  property  and  you  own  half  of 
:he  property?  A.  It  belongs  to  Phillips  Brothers,  my  brother’s  estate 
ind  myself. 

Q.  What  is  your  conception,  Mr.  Phillips,  of  the  moral  responsibility 
■esting  upon  respectable  citizens  who  own  and  collect  rents  on  property 
out  to  disreputable  purposes?  A.  Well,  of  course  in  some  cases  I think 
ihere’s  a responsibility,  yes,  sir,  but  I desire  to  say  just  one  thing,  and 
Tat  is  that  we  are  trying  to  get  away  from  the  use  in  connection  with 
ihis  house,  that  was  used  for  that  purpose  for  forty  years.  Recently  we 
ejected  the  people  that  were  in  there  and  leased  it  to  the  brewery  in 
brder  to  get  away  from  any  connection  with  those  people,  and  I presumed 
[here  might  be  some  chance  to  lease  it  to  some  saloonkeeper,  they  had 
bought  so  much  property  there  for  saloons,  and,  as  I say,  I have  no 
knowledge  now  it  is  not  the  case.  We  were  aiming  to  get  away  in 
connection  with  those  people. 

Q.  You  got  away  from  that  connection  by  leasing  it  to  a brewery 
ind  the  brewery  leases  it  to  a sporting  woman?  A.  To  whoever  it  is, 
,1  don’t  know  that  to  be  a fact;  I don’t  know  whether  there  is  any  sporting 
woman  in  there  or  not;  she  may  be.  We  have  a saloonkeeper  next  door. 

Q.  Have  you  made  efforts  to  sell  that  property?  A.  Yes,  sir,  several 
times. 

Q.  Have  you  made  any  effort  to  clean  up  that  district?  A.  Yes, 
we  have  tried  to  get  a convention  hall  in  there.  I subscribed  two  hun- 
dred fifty  dollars  for  that  and  if  that  comes  in  that  cleans  up  the  whole 
place. 

Q.  Suppose  that  convention  hall  cleans  up  that  district,  to  what  part 
:'of  town  will  those  sporting  houses  be  removed?  A.  I could  not  tell 
you  that,  I am  sure. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  that  matter  discussed?  A.  No,  I have 
never  heard  That  matter  discussed;  some  of  them  will  leave  town  un- 
questionably. I know  one  of  them,  wTen  we  got  out  a writ  and  threw 
her  out  of  the  house,  she  went  to  some  other  place,  Beardstown,  I 
believe. 

Q.  Then  if  that  hall  goes  up  it  is  going  to  clean  up  that  district? 
A..  Sure  thing;  there  is  nothing  to  it. 

Q.  You  favor  that?  A.  Sure  thing,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  property  north  of  the  railroad  tracks  that 
is  being  considered  as  a site  for  the  new  tenderloin?  A.  No,  I don’t; 
[ don’t  know  anything  up  that  way. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Mr.  Phillips,  do  you  know  of  any  other  houses 
|that  are  occupied  in  that  way  that  are  leased  or  sub-leased  by  the  brewing 
companies?  A.  I don’t  know  anything  about  it,  but  I understand  they 
■go  pretty  near  the  entire  block. 

Q.  The  brewing  company?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  they  lease  them  as  houses  of  ill-fame?  A.  I don’t  know 

:hat. 

Q.  Well  that  is  the  supposition?  A.  Yes,  it  is  in  the  district  where 
't  would  be  hard  to  get  a decent  man  and  his  family  to  go  unless  he 
was  connected  with  a saloon  in  that  neighborhood. 

Q.  It  directly  connects  the  breweries  with  the  houses  of  ill-fame; 
:hey  do  that  to  sell  their  beer  and  things  of  that  kind?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 


SENATOR  WOODARD:  Is  there  a saloon  in  the  building?  A.  No. 


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Q.  How  did  you  come  by  this  property?  A.  That  is  a long  story; 
it  is  several  years  ago;  I had  a couple  of  tenants  in  another  place  of 
mine  running  a livery  barn  and  things  like  that.  They  were  two  brothers, 
and  they  proposed  to  lease  the  building.  We  bought  this,  concluding  to 
put  up  a storage  warehouse  and  a livery  barn  on  it.  About  the  time  we 
got  the  property,  why  they  fell  out  and  split  up,  and  went  two  ways, 
and  our  deal  was  off,  and  we  never  had  a chance  to  do  anything  with  it 
since,  and  we  have  simply  been  holding  on  to  it. 

Q.  Why  should  the  brewery  want  to  rent  it?  A.  I don’t  know;  I 
think  breweries  lease  a good  deal  of  property  that  perhaps  they'  don’t 
use,  and  they  just  leased  that,  and  that  is  all  that  I know  about  it. 

Q.  They  probably  had  no  conscientious  scruples  about  it?  A.  Well 
corporations  they  say  have  no  souls. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  At  the  time  y'ou  bought  this  property',  how 
many  years  was  that?  A.  A long  time  ago. 

Q.  At  that  time  was  it  located  in  the  tenderloin  district?  A.  Yes. 

O.  At  that  time  you  knew  it  was  an  immoral  part  of  the  town? 
A.  Yes,  sure,  but  for  a storage  w'arehouse  it  would  not  hurt  it  any. 

Q.  For  what  period  of  years  have  you  leased  it  to  breweries?  A. 
Not  long,  I should  judge  less  than  a year. 

Q.  How  many  years  does  your  lease  extend?  A.  Oh,  it  is  really- 
rented  by  the  agents  of  the  brewery';  I haven’t  got  any  written  lease 
upon  it  because  we  could  not  do  that;  if  this  convention  hall  goes  in 
the  thing  is  dead;  that  would  make  the  lease  dead,  and,  I would  have  to 

cancel  it.  It  has  been  simmering  along  for  a year  or  more. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  if  that  goes  they  have  got  to  get  out;  there  is  no 

chance;  the  red-light  district  don’t  thrive  in  the  right  gas-light. 

Q.  What  does  the  brewery  make  out  of  the  transaction;  does  it  get 
the  rent  from  the  woman  and  turn  it  over  to  you?  A.  No,  they  don’t 
turn  any  money  over  to  me,  only  that  they  pay  me  the  rent  on  it. 

Q.  Do  you  get  as  much  rent  from  the  brewery  as  you  'did  formerly? 
A.  Just  about,  only  we  get  the  rent  now. 

Q.  As  to  amount  is  it  exactly  the  same?  A.  I believe  it  is  just 
about  the  same:  I believe  it  is  still  the  same. 

Q.  Then  the  interest  of  the  brewery  is  something  other  than  financial.-' 
A.  I suppose  so,  but  I don’t  know  what  their  interest  is,  but  I know 

that  I am  getting  my  rent  now  and  I w-asn’t  getting  it  before. 

Q.  How  many  of  those  houses,  if  y'ou  know,  are  leased  to  sporting 
women?  A.  No,  I don’t  know  anything  about  it  to  my'  own  knowledge. 

Q.  You  have  heard?  A.  I have  heard  that  there  was  more  of  them 
in  the  block. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  agent  of  this  brewery?  A.  Davis, 
Ensil  & Company. 

Q.  Where  are  they  located?  A.  On  Sixth  Street. 

Q.  What  is  Mr.  Davis’  first  name?  A.  Samuel  Davis. 

Q.  Before  you  leased  to  the  brewery-  what  was  the  name  of  your 
tenant?  A.  I don’t  know  what  her  real  name  was. 

Q.  What  name  did  she  give  you?  A.  Myrtle  Williams. 

Q.  Did  she  pay  you  in  currency  or  by  check?  A.  All  in  currency, 
whatever  I got;  I didn’t  get  much  of  it,  at  least  she  didn’t  seem  to  have 
any  money.  I don’t  know,  I did  not  know  what  to  do  with  the  people 
that  were  in  there;  and  I didn’t  know  what  to  do  with  the  building;  I 
would  rather  have  someone  live  in  it  than  to  have  it  idle. 

Q.  Does  that  same  woman  live  in  the  building  yet?  A.  No.  we 
ejected  her. 

Q.  And  the  brewery  found  someone  else  to  lease  the  property?  A. 
Yes,  there  is  someone  else  in  there;  they  may  be  decent  people  for  all 
I know. 


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' Q.  Were  you  told  at  the  time  you  made  the  lease  to  the  brewery, 
ior  about  that  time,  that  this  brewery  had  leased  other  property  of  the 
'same  character  in  other  cities  in  Illinois?  A.  I never  heard  anything 
labout  it. 

! Q.  They  came  to  you  voluntarily?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  go  to  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Mary  Barnes’  Testimony. 

i MARY  BARNES,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
ifirst  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mary  Barnes. 

' Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1855  South  Second  Street. 

Q.  How  old  are  you,  Miss  Barnes?  A.  Sixteen. 

Q.  You  live  with  your  father  and  mother?  A.  Yes. 

' Q.  Are  you  going  to  school  now?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  been  working?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working,  how  many  years?  A.  I started 
,the  21st  of  December. 

Q.  The  21st  of  December  last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  place?  A.  At  the  Boston  Store. 

Q.  Here  at  Springfield?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what?  A.  Cash  girl. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  getting?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-five 
cents. 

Q.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents  a week?  A.  Yes. 
SENATOR  JUUL;  And  board,  did  you  get  board?  A.  I worked  at 
the  store. 

I Q.  Did  they  pay  your  board?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents 
r a week. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  you  get  that  at  the  start?  A.  Yes. 
Q.  And  you  haven’t  been  raised?  A.  No,  sir. 
j SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  like  to  get  the  name  of  that  concern. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Boston  Store. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning  there?  A.  At 
I eight  o’clock. 

Q.  How  much  time  did  you  have  at  noon  for  lunch?  A.  One  hour. 
Q.  ■ From  twelve  to  one?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  what  time  did  you  finish  your  work  in  the  evening?  A. 
Six  o’clock. 

Q.  Nine  hours’  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Practically  the  same  number  of  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No,  I 
work  until  nine  on  Saturdays. 

I Q.  Until  nine  o’clock  at  night?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  go  to  work  at  the  same  hour?  A.  No,  I work  from 

I nine  until  nine. 

Q.  And  you  get  for  all  of  that  work  two  dollars  and  seventy-five 
cents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

• Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there?  A.  Just  during  the  Christmas 
week. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  go?  A.  To  the  Coates  factory. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  On  11th  street. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  there?  A.  Worked  on  a machine. 


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Q.  On  what?  A.  On  a machine;  I forget  the  name  of  it. 

Q.  Doing  what?  A.  Doing  different  kinds  of  work,  making  parts 
of  watches. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning  there?  A.  At 
seven  o’clock. 

Q.  At  what  time  did  you  get  lunch?  A.  From  twelve  to  one. 

Q.  And  at  what  time  did  you  finish  in  the  evening?  A.  Six  o’clock. 

Q.  You  worked  the  same  number  of  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No, 
I got  off  at  five  o’clock  on  Saturday. 

Q.  Now,  for  this  work  how  much  did  you  get?  A.  The  first  week 
I got  three  dollars,  and  then  the  next  week  I started  on  piece  work. 

Q.  You  made  three  dollars  the  first  week  and  the  second  week  they 
put  you  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  the  second  week?  A.  About  thirty 
cents  a day. 

Q.  Working  from  six  o’clock  in  the  morning  until  six  o’clock  in  the 
evening?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  hard  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  were  employed  there?  A.  About  thirteen. 

Q.  Were  most  of  them  making  any  more  than  you  were  making? 
A.  About  fourteen  cents  a hundred. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  a hundred?  A.  Well,  the  little  screws, 
they  got  fourteen  cents  a hundred. 

Q.  How  big  are  those  screws?  A.  Well,  different  kinds;  the  ones 

I worked  on,  they  are  real  small,  about  half  an  inch. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  were  feeding  the  machine  with  metal,  is 
that  the  idea?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  And  you  got  fourteen  cents  a hundred  for 
that?  A.  No,  that  was  the  highest. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get?  A.  Four  cents  and  four  and  a half. 

Q.  Four  and  four  and  a half  cents  a hundred?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  girls  make  more  money  than  thirty  cents  any'  day? 

A.  Yes. 

Q.  Much  more  than  thirty  cents  a day'?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  talk  to  you  about  their  earnings?  A.  No,  they 
never  said  anything  to  me. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  When  you  got  the  transfer  to  piece  work.  Miss 
Barnes,  what  was  the  reason  for  that?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Before  that  they  were  pay'ing  y'ou  three  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  they  put  you  on  piece  work  after  that  with  the  result  that 
you  averaged  about  thirty  cents  a day;  that  was  about  a dollar  and  eighty 
cents  a week,  wasn’t  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason  for  them  paying  you  less  than  they  paid 
you  before;  did  they  think  that  they  had  been  overpaying  you  when  they 
paid  you  the  three  dollars  a week?  A.  I don’t  know;  they  put  everyone 
on  piece  work. 

Q.  Put  everyone  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  after  they  had  worked 
there  a week. 

Q.'  After  they  had  worked  there  a week  they  put  them  on  piece 
work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  resulted  in  an  average  reduction  of  about  a dollar  and 
twenty  cents  a week  for  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know'  how  it  resulted  for  the  other  girls  working  there? 
A.  No,  I don’t. 


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Q.  You  don’t  know  how  much  or  how  little  they  could  earn?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  as  to  whether  they  earned  five,  or  six,  or  ten 
dollars;  didn’t  you  girls  talk  together  about  that?  A.  No,  sir,  they 

Inever  talked  to  me  about  their  wages.  When  I started  first  they  gave  me 
three  dollars  a week,  and  they  only  pay  once  a month.  I saw  one  little 
girl  get  twenty-three  dollars  one  month,  and  that  is  the  only  one  I knew 
what  she  was  getting. 

Q.  If  you  had  stayed  on  wage  work,  you  could  have  made  twelve 
dollars  a month?  A.  Yes. 

j Q.  Now,  would  that  work  require  any  degree  of  skill  so  that  you 
could  by  a little  practice  turn  out  a greater  number  of  screws?  A.  It  did 
not  need  very  much  practice. 

Q.  It  was  simply  a matter  of  feeding  a machine?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  All  that  you  had  to  learn  was  to  get  up  speed,  is  that  correct?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  to  stand  up  at  that  work?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  sat  down?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  sat  steadily  at  the  machine  all  day  long?  A.  Oh,  not  steadily, 
if  there  is  a break  for  five  minutes,  they  might  have  to  fix  the  machine. 

Q.»  What  do  you  mean?  A.  Like  the  dog,  that  will  break.  You  have 
to  put  it  in  the  dogs,  and  sometimes  these  dogs  Avill  break,  and  then  it  has  to 

' be  fixed,  and  you  would  have  to  wait  five  or  ten  minutes  to  have  them  fixed,  and 
then  we  could  not  turn  out  as  much  work. 

I Q.  While  this  machine  was  broken,  and  was  being  fixed,  then  you  put 
in  your  time  there  or  elsewhere  and  get  nothing  for  it?  A.  We  don’t  get 
anything  for  it,  for  the  time  when  the  machine  breaks,  and  we  have  to  wait. 

Q.  So  the  firm  was  not  at  a loss  at  the  time  when  the  machine  was  broken? 

I A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  get  docked  any  for  coming  late?  A.  No. 

' Q.  While  you  were  on  weekly  wages?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  happens  to  a girl  coming  late?  A.  Nothing. 

Q.  Are  those  gentlemen  that  are  running  that  factory  as  you  can  see, 
are  they  pretty  poor?  A.  Oh,  my,  no. 

Q.  Do  they  look  very  poor?  A.  No. 

' Q.  What  kind  of  looking  gentlemen  are  they?  A.  Mr.  Coates  is  a 
very  nice  man ; I never  talked  with  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  he  has  got  a home  here  in  Springfield?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  it  is  a very  prosperous  concern,  so  far  as  you  can 
see?  A.  No,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  But  you  make  as  much  as  a dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  have  to  pay  for  board?  A.  Well,  I gave  my 
mother  everything. 

Q.  You  gave  your  mother  a dollar  and  eighty  cents?  A.  We  haven’t  had 
our  pay  yet;  he  won’t  give  it  to  us. 

Q.  You  worked  for  a dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week  and  you  haven’t  got 
that  yet?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been,  without  your  pay,  how  many  weeks  did  you 
work  and  you  didn’t  get  your  pay?  A.  I have  been  there  about  three  weeks. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  started?  A.  About  three  weeks  ago. 

Q.  They  agreed  first  to  give  you  three  dollars?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  they  paid  you  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  They  haven’t  paid  you  that?  A.  No,  we  have  to  wait  until  May  15th 

Q.  Then  after  that  they  put  you  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  then  you  began  making  a dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  How  often  did  you  collect  that  dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week?  A. 
^ haven’t  collected  it. 

: 


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Q.  So  to  start  with  they  promised  to  pay  you  three  dollars  a week  and 
they  kept  you  one  week  at  three  dollars  a week  and  they  didn’t  pay  you  for 
that  week;  then  they  put  you  on  piece  work  because  you  were  making  too 
much  at  three  dollars  a week,  and  at  that  you  succeeded  in  earning  a dollar 
and  eighty  cents  a week,  and  they  haven’t  paid  you  that  yet?-  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  in  the  city  of  Springfield,  in  the  state  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  Lincoln’s  Tomb?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  this  is  in  the  city  that  Mr.  Lincoln  was  buried  in?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  is  all;  that  beats  anything  that  I ever  run 
across. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  When  you  were  working  for  two  dollars  and  sev- 
enty-five cents  did  you  pay  any  street  car  fare  out  of  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  far  did  you  work  away  from  your  home?  A.  A little  over 
ten  blocks.  I walked  down  in  the  morning  and  rode  home  at  night. 

Q.  You  didn’t  have  very  much  money  to  spare;  you  couldn’t  go  to  picture 
shows  very  often,  could  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  your  board?  A.  I didn’t  have  any  money  t^  pay  it 
with. 

Q.  Is  your  father  working?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  My  father  is  a miner. 

Q.  And  your  mother  does  the  house  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  help  your  mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  That  is  the  worst  we  ever  struck. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  is  worse  than  Washington,  D.  C. 

Q.  I want  to  see  your  hands.  I don’t  want  to  offend  you,  but  let  me 
see  your  hands.  (Miss  Barnes  exhibits  hands  to  members  of  the  Com- 
mittee.) Did  you  ever  get  injured  at  any  time  while  you  were  working  at 
the  machine?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I have  got  blisters  on  my  hands. 

Q.  Did  you  get  cut?  A.  No,  I just  got  blisters  on  them. 

SENATOR  JUUL ; You  got  blistered  for  a dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week 
God  bless  them.  Some  of  these  fellows  will  die  with  heart  disease  yet.  Thank 
you. 

Sylvia  Kane’s  Testimony. 

SYLVIA  KANE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first  duh 
sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows ; 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Q.  What  is  your  name?  Sylvia  Kane. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1743  South  Sangamon. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  You  live  at  home  with  your  father  and  mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  go  to  school?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  working?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working?  A.  For  the  last  year  off  and  on 

Q.  Where  did  you  first  find  emploj-ment?  A.  At  the  Boston  ^tore. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  there?  A.  I was  cash  girl. 

Q.  And  how  long  ago  was  that?  A.  A year  ago,  or  a little  over,  a 
ago  in  March. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  paid?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventy -n\e  cents. 

Q.  You  were  paid  two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents  as  cash  girl? 
Yes  sir. 

'q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning?  A.  Eight  o’clock. 


I 

I'  Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  611 

I Q.  How  much  time  did  you  have  at  noon  for  lunch?  A.  One  hour. 

• Q.  And  you  quit  what  time  in  the  evening?  A.  Six  o’clock. 

Q.  On  Saturday  were  your  hours  longer  or  shorter?  A.  Saturday  I 
went  to  work  at  nine  o’clock,  had  an  hour  for  dinner  and  an  hour  for  supper,  and 
^ then  went  to  work  and  worked  to  nine  o’clock. 

Q.  You  worked  on  until  nine  o’clock  in  the  evening  on  Saturday?  A. 

' Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  for  all  this  work  you  got  two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents  a 
week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  other  cash  girls  were  there?  A.  About  eight. 

Q.  Were  they  all  getting  the  same  amount  of  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  getting  two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  you  left  the  Boston  Store  where  did  you  go  then?  A. 

McCourtney’s. 

Q.  Where  is  that  located?  A.  On  the  south  side  of  the  square. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a place  is  that?  A.  A dry  goods  store. 

' Q.  What  do  you  do  there?  A.  I am  clerk  at  the  pattern  counter. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  there?  A.  Two  dollars. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Two  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir,  two  dollars. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  time  do  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning? 
A.  Eight  o’clock. 

Q.  How  much  time  do  you  have  at  noon?  A.  An  hour  and  a quarter. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  quit  in  the  evening?  A.  Six  o’clock. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  come  back  at  night  to  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  let  you  off  at  night?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  go  to  work  and  work  the  same  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No, 
we  began  at  half-past  eight  and  then  had  an  hour  and  a quarter  for  dinner 
i and  an  hour  and  a quarter  for  supper  and  quit  at  nine  o’clock. 

Q.  You  were  a clerk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  worked  all  of  these  hours  and  got  two  dollars  a week  for  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL ; Did  you  get  that  in  cash?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  have  to  pay  any  of  this  two  dollars 
I out  for  street  car  fare?  A.  I had  to  ride  in  bad  weather. 

( Q.  But  otherwise  you  walked?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  a walk  did  you  have?  A.  From  the  seventeen  hundred 
' block  south. 

Q.  How  many  blocks  is  that?  A.  About  seventeen  blocks. 

Q.  Then  every  day  you  had  to  walk  those  seventeen  blocks  from  your 
home  to  this  store  except  on  bad  days  that  you  had  to  use  the  street  car?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  Your  noonday  lunch,  where  did  you  get  that?  A.  I took  it  with  me. 
Q.  From  your  home?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  you  had  supper  down  town  in  the  evening,  that  is  on  Saturdays, 
you  brought  that  with  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  on  Saturday  morning  you  had  to  leave  home  with  two  lunches, 
one  for  noon  and  one  for  supper?  A.  Sometimes  my  mother  would  bring 
it  to  me. 

j Q.  Did  your  mother  have  to  pay  car  fare  to  bring  it  to  you?  A.  Yes. 

j Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  proprietor  of  that  place?  A.  McCourtney. 

' SENATOR  JUUL:  Where  is  it  located  on  the  square?  A.  It  is  on  the 
I south  side  of  the  square. 

Q.  That  is  towards  the  Alton  railroad,  isn’t  it?  A.  No,  it  is  towards  the 
i Leland. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there?  A.  About 
a month. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Then  where  did  you  work?  A.  Then  I worked,  on  Christmas  week 
I was  at  the  5 and  10  cent  store. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  get  there  at  the  5 and  10  cent  store?  A.  A dollar 
a day. 

SENATOR  JUUL : A dollar  a day?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  was  big  pay,  wasn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  we  had  to  work  there  every 
night. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  the  Christmas  spirit  had  lodged  in 
their  hearts.  That  was  on  Christmas  day,  the  week  of  Christmas?  A. 
Christmas  week. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  No,  that  wasn’t  the  Christmas  spirit;  that  was  be- 
cause they  could  not  get  girls  at  two  dollars  a week,  that  is  whj-. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Then  where  did  30U  go?  A.  To  Coates  V'atch 
Factory. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  there?  A.  Ground  staffs. 

Q.  How  did  you  do  that?  A.  Put  it  in  a concern  called  a dog,  and  put 
it  in  a machine  and  pressed  a pedal. 

Q.  Did  that  require  a great  deal  of  skill?  A.  No,  not  so  very  much. 

Q.  You  could  do  it  about  as  well  on  the  first  day  as  you  could  at  the  end 
of  the  first  or  second  week?  A.  It  took  about  half  a day  to  get  used  to  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Q.  It  took  a half  a day  to  learn  it?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Gentlemen,  in  view  of  some  of  the  things  that  we  have 
run  across  here  lately,  I am  of  the  opinion  that  it  possibly  won’t  do,  in  any 
minimum  wage  bill,  to  give  any  half  year  or  three-quarters  of  a year  or  any 
one  year  for  apprenticeship.  It  is  so  clear  to  me  now  that  in  nine  cases  out  of 
ten  that  have  come  before  us  there  has  been  no  degree  of  skill  required  where 
a machine  is  a part  of  the  system  of  manufacture.  These  girls  apparently 
can  do  the  first  day  what  they  can  do  at  the  end  of  the  first  year,  and  the 
whole  thing  then  that  they  have  got  to  learn  is  speed.  When  they  have  learned 
speed,  they- don’t  leave  them  on  wages  any  more,  they  put  them  on  piece  work. 
Then  if  they  make  too  much,  then  they'  increase  the  number  of  articles  that  they 
have  got  to  make.  It  seems  to  me  that  all  the  testimony  runs  that  way'.  That 
is  one  of  the  things  that  we  have  drawn  out  of  this  entire  investigation. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : Q.  How  long  did  you  work  at  the  Coates  M’atch 
Factory?  A.  About  three  weeks. 

Q.  How  much  did  y'ou  make  the  first  week?  A.  Three  dollars. 

Q.  They'  started  you  on  three  dollars  a week  and  they'  gave  that  to  you 
for  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  second  week?  A.  Then  they  took  me  on  piece  work. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make  the  second  week  on  piece  work?  A.  Well, 
the  machine  that  I had,  that  I was  put  onto,  I had  to  make  these  little  screws, 
I got  four  cents  a hundred  for  making  these  little  screws,  and  its  was  a new 
machine.  Sometimes  the  machines  are  in  bad  order,  and  they'  don’t  run,  and 
you  have  to  wait  for  them  to  fix  them,  and  the  best  you  can  make  is  thirty,  or 
forty',  or  fifty  cents  a day. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  much  you  made  the  second  week  all  told?  A. 
We  haven’t  got  paid  yet ; they  only  pay  once  a month.  We  quit,  and  they  won’t 
pay  us  until  the  15th  of  next  month,  so  that  we  don’t  know  what  they  will 
pay  us. 

Q.  Who  keeps  the  records?  A.  They'  keep  them  up  in  the  office. 

Q.  After  you  have  worked  all  day  long  and  you  have  blistered  your 
hands  working,  you  don’t  even  know  how  much  you  have  made?  A.  M'e  have 
a pretty  good  idea  if  we  stop  to  count  them. 

Q.  Is  there  any'  counter  on  these  machines?  A.  No,  sir,  we  have  to 
count  them  by  hand. 

Q.  You  can  make  them  first  and  then  you  can  count  them?  A.  \es. 
sir. 

Q.  And  you  got  four  cents  a hundred  for  making  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


613 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  like  to  get  at  this  system  of  payment  over 
there;  you  got  three  dollars  a week  and  you  hadn’t  got  that  either?  A.  No. 

Q.  The  first  week  they  thought  you  made  too  much?  A.  I don’t  know. 
I was  there  about  three  weeks,  and  the  first  week  I made  about  three  dollars 
and  the  next  two  I made  about  three,  almost. 

Q.  You  think  you  made  almost  three?  A.  Yes,  or  a little  more. 

Q.  You  think  that  you  made  a little  more  than  three?  A.  I am  not  sure 
about  that. 

Q.  But  you  didn’t  get  it,  the  second  or  third  week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  they  still  owe  you?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JULTL : That  is  a wonderful  system.  Governor;  it  beats  any- 
thing that  I have  ever  come  across.  These  girls  have  got  to  eat  and  to  live, 
but  they  hold  their  wages  back  on  them  for  a month;  if  they  got  all  there  was 
coming  to  them  there  wouldn’t  be  a week’s  board  in  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  You  are  not  working  there  now,  are? 
A.  No. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Are  your  father  and  mother  living?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  your  father  do?  A.  He  is  a miner. 

Q.  Coal  miner?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  brothers  and  sisters?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Any  money  you  get  you  turn  in  to  your  father  and  mother?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL : They  don’t  get  any.  Senator. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  did  you  happen  to  go  to  the  Coates  Watch 
Factory?  A.  I saw  an  ad  in  the  paper. 

Q.  What  paper?  A.  The  Register. 

Q.  Among  the  want  ads?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  that  ad  say,  if  you  remember?  A.  They  said  they  wanted 
girls. 

Q.  When  you  went  down  there,  whom  did  you  see?  A.  Mr.  Coates. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you?  A.  He  said  he  could  use  me  in  about  a couple 
of  days  and  then  he  would  call  for  me. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  that  advertisement  for  girls  is  inserted  every 
day?  A.  No. 

Q.  The  one  that  you  saw?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  the  girls  down  there  stay  very  long  in  that 
employment  or  constantly  change?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  You  remained  there  three  weeks  and  the  other  girl  remained 
two  or  three  weeks?  A.  She  remained  a couple  of  days  longer  than 
I did. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  The  supply  seems  to  be  unlimited;  they  can 
get  them  at  the  start  at  three  dollars  a week;  that  brings  them,  and  to 
girls  that  have  been  working  in  that  charitable  place  on  the  square,  where 
they  paid  them  two  and  a half  or  two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents,  that 
looks  big  to  them.  The  moment  they  get  girls  in  the  place  they  talk 
weekly  wages  to  them,  and  as  soon  as  they  have  worked  a week  they 
put  them  on  piece  work  where  they  can  earn  half  as  much.  It  is  a nice 
state  of  affairs. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Did  this  advertisement  say  how  much  they 
Yould  pay  you?  A.  No. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATpR  JUUL;  There  are  about  how  many  girls  over  there? 

A.  About  sixteen  or  eighteen. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  working  there?  A.  The  men  are  upstairs, 

I don’t  know  how  many  there  are. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  are  twenty  or  thirty?  A.  Oh,  no,  no. 

Q.  There  aren’t  so  many  as  that?  A.  About  six  or  eight. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  young  boys  over  there?  A.  There  is  only 
one  young  boy  working  in  the  factory. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  how  the  men  are  paid?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  idea  as  to  their  earnings?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  This  firm  still  owes  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0-  You  still  hope  to  get  yours?  A.  They  paj^  on  the  15th  of  the 

month.  « 

Q.  If  you  quit  you  have  to  wait  until  the  next  month  comes  around? 
A.  Why,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Then  if  they  discharge  you?  A.  They  pay  us  right  away. 

Q.  What  was  your  reason  for  quitting?  A.  I wanted  a better  job. 

Q.  You  brought  your  lunch?  A.  No,  I went  home  to  lunch. 

Q.  But  you  gave  your  mother  the  moneys?  A.  I didn’t  get  any 
money. 

Q.  You  didn’t  give  your  money  to  your  mother  because  you  didn’t 
get  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Were  your  fingers  blistered?  A.  Some,  my 
thumbs  was  cut  some. 

Q.  The  girls  that  remained  there,  their  thumbs  were  cut  up?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  what  your  weekly  sales  amounted  to  at  any- 
time at  McCourtney’s?  A.  Sometimes,  we  had  real  good  business,  and 
then  it  wouldn’t  be  so  good. 

Agnes  McGill’s  Testimony. 

AGNES  McGILL,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  y-our  name?  A.  Agnes  McGill. 
Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  176  East  Carpenter  Street. 

Q.  How  old  are  ymu?  A.  Twenty'-one. 

Q.  How  many'  years  have  you  been  working?  A.  Altogether  about 
five  years. 

Q.  You  live  with  your  father  and  mother?  A.  My-  father  is  dead, 
but  I live  with  my  mother. 

Q.  Have  y'ou  any  sisters  and  brothers?  A.  Two  married  sisters, 
and  one  other  sister,  and  one  brother. 

Q.  Are  you  the  support  of  your  mother?  A.  !My  brother  and  I 
and  my  other  sister. 

Q.  You  do  not  only  support  yourself  but  you  help  support  your 
mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  twenty-one  years  old  now  and  have  been  working  for 
five  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  work  last?  A.  I had  got  sick,  I had  got  sick 
at  the  box  factory  and  they'  sent  me  to  the  hospital. 

Q.  Now,  going  back  five  y-ears,  what  was  the  first  place  tiiat  you 
worked  at  here  in  Springfield?  A.  .^t  the  Boston  Store. 

Q.  Five  years  ago  you  started  working  at  the  Boston  Store?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  there?  A.  Run  checks. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


615 


Q.  What  were  you  paid  for  that?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-five 
:ents. 

Q.  A week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Long  hours?  A.  From  eight  until  noon,  and  then  you  got  time 
)ff  for  dinner. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  I then  clerked;  I first 
•un  checks  and  I then  clerked  six  months. 

Q.  When  you  clerked  there,  did  you  get  any  more  money?  A.  Just 
;he  same;  he  said  that  he  would  raise  me,  but  he  never  raised  me. 

Q.  When  you  were  clerking  he  said  he  would  raise  you;  you  were 
six  months  a clerk  and  never  did  get  a raise?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  left  there,  where  did  you  go?  A.  To  the  box  factory. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  box  factory?  A.  The  name  then  was 
Davidson’s. 

Q.  What  is  it  now?  A.  Now  it  is  Johnson’s. 

Q.  What  kind  of  boxes  did  you  manufacture?  A.  Boxes  for  shoes; 
shoe  boxes. 

^ Q.  Paper  and  cardboard  boxes?  A.  Paper  boxes,  yes,  sir. 

‘ Q.  How  many  years  ago  did  you  go  there?  A.  About,  let  us  see, 

about  five  years  ago  when  I first  started. 

■ Q.  How  much  were  you  paid  when  you  first  went  there?  A.  Three 
'dollars. 

i Q.  Three  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  raised  after  you  had  been  there  some  time?  A.  Then 
!I  got  four,  and  then  the  next  time  I asked  him  I almost  had  to  quit 
before  I got  another  raise,  and  then  he  raised  me  to  four  and  a half. 

Q.  Was  that  the  largest  amount  of  money  you  ever  received  there? 
A.  No,  then  he  put  me  on  the  machine  and  gave  me  four  and  a half. 
;I  was  still  getting  four  and  a half,  and  in  another  week  he  says  he  will 
give  me  five,  and  then  that  week  came  along  and  I didn’t  get  the  five, 
and  I asked  him  for  the  five,  and  he  says  that  the  next  week  he  would 
'give  it  to  me  sure,  and  then  he  gave  me  five. 

Q.  That  is  the  amount  you  had  when  you  left?  A.  No,  I stayed 
there  a while  and  he  raised  me  to  five  and  a half  and  then  to  six.  There 
was  one  girl  there  that  made  ten  dollars,  and  I told  him  I wanted  another 
raise,  and  he  says,  “I  told  you  I will  give  you  another  raise  next  week,” 
and  at  that  time  next  week  I didn’t  get  it,  and  I saw  him  and  I says, 
“I  have  been  waiting  for  that  raise,”  and  he  says,  “I  will  give  it  to  you 
jsure,”  but  he  didn’t,  so  I was  going  to  quit.  I says  to  him,  “I  shan’t 
stay  unless  you  give  me  six  and  a half;  the  other  girls  make  more  than 
I do.”  So  he  says,  ‘'I  will  give  you  a dollar  raise  if  you  will  stay.”  So 
he  gave  it  to  me  and  then  I stayed,  and  then  I was  getting  seven  dollars. 

Q.  You  got  this  seven  dollars  after  you  had  been  working  there 
about  five  years?  A.  I got  it  two  weeks  before  I quit. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning?  A.  Seven 
o’clock. 

Q.  And  what  time  did  you  go  to  lunch?  A.  We  got  it  at  twelve, 
we  would  have  to  be  back  at  a quarter  to  one,  and  then  at  night  we  got 
off  at  a quarter  of  six. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  do  any  night  work?  A.  Oh,  I come  home  and 
helped  my  mother. 

Q.  I mean  at  the  factory.  A.  I used  to  help  him  out  nights  to 
seven  o’clock. 

; Q.  On  Saturdays  did  you  get  off  any  earlier?  A.  At  five  o’clock. 

Q.  Did  they  treat  you  nicely  there?  A.  Whenever  he  would  get 
mad  at  you,  he  would  curse  at  you. 

Q.  When  who  got  mad  at  you?  A.  Bill  Alexander. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  The  boss. 

Q.  When  he  got  mad  at  the  girls  he  would  curse  at  them?  A.  Sure. 


616 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Do  you  mean  he  was  profane?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATORS  JUUL  AND  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Swear  at  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  often  did  he  do  that?  A.  Pretty  near  every  day;  some 
weeks  he  would  be  all  right  a couple  of  days  and  then  he  would  get  mad 
at  you  and  pull  you  around. 

Q.  Pull  you  around?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Jerk  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Maybe  he  wasjust  doing  that  in  a sort  of  jocular  way?  A.  There 
was  no  joking  about  it. 

Q.  What  did  he  do,  take  you  by  the  arm  and  jerk  you  around? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  ever  complain  about  that  kind  of 
treatment?  A.  There  was  one  girl  that  he  treated  better  than  all  the 
rest,  she  was  the  one  that  is  making  ten  dollars  a week. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Were  you  ever  injured  while  working 
there?  A.  Yes,  sir,  my  side  hurt  me  all  the  time.  I was  operated  on 
for  appendicitis,  and  then  when  I went  to  working  on  the  machine  it 
got  worse. 

Q.  From  sitting  in  a cramped  position?  A.  I was  at  the  machine 
all  the  time.  The  machine  it  semed  to  be  so  hard. 

Q.  Hard  to  run?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  ask  him  to  fix  it?  A.  I did  ask  him  to  fix  it. 

Q.  Was  it  foot  or  steam  power?  A.  It  was  steam  power. 

Q.  This  foreman  was  a sort  of  a driver,  when  the  girls  wouldn’t 
work  fast  enough  he  would  come  out  and  swear  at  them  to  make  them 
go?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  kept  you  going  on  this  work  as  fast  as  he  could?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  could  not  afford  to  lose  your  job?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  evertyhing  that  he  told  you  to  in  the  way  of  work? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  faint  under  that  treatment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  times  did  you  faint?  A.  Some- 
times once  in  about  two  or  three  months. 

Q.  Once  in  about  two  or  three  months  you  would  reel  ever?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  That  would  happen  partly  as  a result  of  the  treatment  j'ou  were 
receiving  under  that  speeding-up  system?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  then  he 
would  make  me  go  back  on  the  machine  again.  I was  working  on  samples, 
and  he  would  say  that  he  had  to  have  that  work.  I said  to  him  that  I 

didn’t  feel  like  working,  and  he  says  I must.  I was  so  sick  that  I couldn’t 

hardly  hold  my  head  up. 

Q.  You  worked  at  times  under  that  sj-stem  until  jmu  reeled  over? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  want  this  Committee  to  understand  that  before  you  got 
better,  got  straightened  up,  they  would  put  you  back  at  the  machine  and 
order  you  to  go  to  it  some  more?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  cut  your  finger?  A.  The  day  I fainted;  it  was 
the  machine.  It  cut  me;  it  made  me  faint. 

Q.  How  long  after  this  injury  to  your  finger  were  a'ou  put  back  to 
work?  A.  Half  an  hour  afterwards. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  the}^  send  for  a doctor  for  you?  A. 
This  time,  no. 

Q.  What  did  they  do?  A.  This  last  time  they  sent  me  to  a hospital. 

Q.  Did  they  pay  your  hospital  bill?  A.  No,  the}'  sent  them  the 
bill,  but  they  refused  to  pay  it. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


617 


Q.  The  hospital  sent  them  the  bill  and  they  refused  to  pay  it?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  The  last  time  that  you  fainted  they  could  see  that  you  were  all 
in  and  then  they  sent  you  to  a hospital  and  told  you  to  pay  your  own  bill? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  didn’t  pay  you  for  your  time,  either,  did  they?  A.  They 
didn’t  pay  me  for  my  time  or  anything. 

Q.  Who  owns  that  factory?  A.  It  is  Johnson’s  Box  Factory;  it  is 
in  the  shoe  factory. 

Q.  Is  this  a part  of  the  International  Shoe  Company?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  It  belongs  to  the  International  Shoe  Company?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  the  same  company  that  we  had  in  the 
vice  investigation  in  the  La  Salle  Hotel,  if  I am  not  mistaken,  where  a 
girl  testified  that  their  treatment  of  her  had  driven  her  to  her  downfall. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  That  is  the  same  company;  she  came  from 
St.  Louis. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  She  testified  under  oath  that  her  maximum  earn- 
ing was  three  dollars  and  a half  a week  and  that  she  simply  could  not 
stand  it  any  more. 

Q.  Are  any  of  these  owners,  so  far  as  you  know,  living  in  Springfield? 
A.  That  own  the  factory? 

Q.  I don’t  mean  the  managers,  I mean  the  men  that  are  actual 
owners — do  any  of  them  live  here?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you  that. 

Q.  What  men  are  there  outside  of  this  man  who  used  to  jerk  you? 
A.  Mr.  McDermott. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  McDermott  see  the  treatment  that  this  man  accorded 
to  the  girls?  A.  No,  he  didn’t. 

Q.  This  foreman  was  supreme — I mean  he  was  in  absolute  charge? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  saw  any  boss  above  him?  A.  Mr.  McDermott  was 
above  Bill  Alexander,  but  he  didn’t  see  how  Bill  Alexander  treated  us. 

Q.  Is  he  here?  A.  Yes,  he  is  down  there. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Who,  Bill  Alexander?  A.  No,  sir;  Mr.  Mc- 
Dermott. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Is  he  in  the  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  Bill  Alexander  here?  A.  No. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think  that  Bill  Alexander  ought  to  be  here. 
I would  suggest  that  Bill  Alexander  be  brought  before  this  Committee 
either  at  today’s  meeting  or  at  some  other  meeting. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Scouten,  issue  a summons  for  Bill 
Alexander. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  How  often  did  you  faint?  A.  I went  home 
one  time  and  I was  not  able  to  come  back.  He  says  that  he  had  got  to 
get  those  lots  off,  because  they  were  short,  and  I had  to  work  awful  hard 
to  get  caught  up. 

Q.  How  often  did  you  faint  altogether  while  you  were  working  there? 
A.  Altogether? 

Q.  Yes,  while  you  were  at  the  factory  over  there?  A.  Quite  a few 
times. 

Q.  Half  a dozen  times?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  When  you  finished  your  work  at  the  fac- 
tory you  went  home  and  helped  your  mother  with  the  household  duties? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  all  the  life  you  had  outside  of  the  factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  morning  to  night  it  was  a succession  of  work,  work,  work? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Did  you  have  any  amusements  at  all?  A.  I 
went  to  picture  shows  sometimes. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Who  had  the  power  over  there  to  raise  wages? 
A.  Mr.  Bill  Alexander. 

Q.  And  he  was  the  man  you  negotiated  with  from  time  to  time  for 
those  half-dollar  raises  or  dollar  raises?  A.  I always  had  to  quit  to  get 
it.  If  he  saw  you  was  going  to  quit,  he  would  give  it  to  you,  but  Miss 

got  it  whether  she  quit  or  not. 

Q.  There  was  a difference  between  other  girls  and  this  girl  of  how 
much?  A.  She  made  about  three  dollars  more  than  us;  she  made  ten 
dollars  a week. 

Q.  Was  she  better  looking  than  the  other  girls?  A.  She  was,  sure; 
she  was  better  looking  in  the  face. 

Pearl  Briggs’  Testimony. 

PEARL  BRIGGS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Pearl  Briggs. 


Q. 

Where  do  you  live?  A. 

800  North  11th  street. 

Q. 

With  your  father  and  m 

other?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q. 

How  old  are  you?  A. 

Twenty-one. 

Q. 

How  many  years  have 

you  been  working?  A.  Since  I was 

sixteen. 

1 

Q. 

Here  in  Springfield?  A. 

Yes. 

P- 

What  is  the  first  place 

you  worked  at?  A.  Dr.  Monroe’s, 

a 

dentist. 

Q. 

What  did  you  do?  A. 

Cash  girl. 

Q. 

How  much  did  the  doctor  pay  you?  A.  Three  dollars  a week. 

Q. 

How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  About  eight  months. 

Q. 

And  then  where  did  you 

go?  A.  I was  staying  at  home  for 

a 

while  then. 

. Q- 

When  you  next  went  to  work  where  did  you  go?  A.  I went  to 

a 

private 

family. 

Q.  Doing  what?  A.  Housekeeping. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  remain  there?  A.  Just  a short  w'hile. 

Q.  Why  did  you  quit?  A.  The}'  wanted  to  cut  my  wages  and  was 
not  giving  me  enough. 

Q.  How  much  w'ere  they  giving  you?  A.  Two  dollars  and  a half  a 
week. 

Q.  And  board,  and  a room  to  sleep  in?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  it  a nice  room  that  they  gave  you  to  sleep  in?  A.  Not  very. 
It  was  just  a small  room. 

Q.  When  you  were  working  in  this  house,  what  time  did  you  go  to 
work  in  the  morning?  A.  From  six  o’clock;  I had  to  get  up  and  get 
breakfast. 

Q.  You  had  to  have  breakfast  ready  at  what  time?  A.  About  seven. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  get  through  in  the  evening?  A.  It  would 
depend;  I would  do  my  dishes  up;  we  never  had  supper  until  about  half- 
past six  or  seven  o’clock,  and  it  would  be  about  eight  o’clock  when  I got 
my  dishes  done. 

Q.  Then  what  did  you  do?  A.  Put  the  children  to  bed  and  then  I 
W'as  through. 

Q.  About  what  time  was  that  when  you  got  through?  A.  About 
half-past  eight  or  a quarter  to  nine. 

Q.  You  started  in  at  six  o’clock  in  the  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  when  it  was  pretty  near  nine  in  the  evening  you  were  through 
work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


619 


Q.  Then  1 suppose  you  went  right  to  bed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  was  your  life?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  remain  there  very  long?  A.  No,  sir,  just  a short 
while. 

Q.  Then  where  did  you  go?  A.  I went  back  home  and  then  I went 
over  to  the  shoe  factory. 

Q.  What  shoe  factory?  A.  The  International. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  go  there?  A.  It  was  not  the  International 
then;  there  was  another  company  before  this  company  started  up. 

* Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  go  to  work  in  that  factory?  A.  A short 
time  after  I quit  the  house  work.  Then  I worked  there  a short  while, 
and  there  wasn’t  work  enough  and  mother  said  I had  better  be  at  home, 
because  I was  working  my  head  off  for  nothing. 

Q.  At  the  shoe  factory?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  were  they  giving  you?  A.  Three  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Did  you  always  get  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  offered  you  three  dollars  and  paid  you  three  dollars?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  fine  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  “dock”  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  did  they  dock  you?  A.  If  I was  late  they  would 
dock  me.  ’ 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  five  minutes  late,  how  much  were  you  docked? 
A.  Ten  cents. 

Q.  At  the  time  they  were  docking  you  ten  cents  for  being  five  min- 
utes late,  how  much  were  you  being  paid  a week?  A.  Three  dollars 
a week. 

Q.  Were  you  docked  very  often?  A.  No,  I was  not  late  very  often; 
I always  tried  to  get  there  on  time. 

Q.  How  much  is  the  greatest  that  you  were  docked  in  one  week? 
A.  No  more  than  twenty  cents. 

Q.  How  long  ago  did  you  leave  this  shoe  factory?  A.  I worked 
there  several  different  times,  but  I never  done  any  better. 

Q.  When  was  the  last  time  you  were  there?  A.  About  a week  ago. 
Q.  At  that  time,  how  long  had  you  been  there?  A.  I started  in 
November. 

Q.  Last  November?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  worked  until  a week  ago?  A.  Worked  until  a week  ago. 
Q.  When  you  started  work  last  November  what  did  they  pay  you? 
A.  Six  dollars  a week. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  work  in  the  morning?  A.  Seven  o’clock. 
Q.  What  time  did  you  get  through  at  night?  A.  A quarter  of 

six. 

Q.  And  the  same  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No,  we  quit  a quarter 
to  five  on  Saturday. 

Q.  Who  was  your  boss  there?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  That  was  not  in  Bill  Alexander’s  department?  A.  No,  sir;  that 
was  in  the  stitching  room. 

Q.  You  were  working  in  the  stitching  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Bill  Alexander  was  in  some  other  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  do,  stitch  shoes?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just  stitch. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  pay  you  six  dollars  a week?  A.  About  two 
months. 

Q.  And  then  what  happened?  A.  They  put  me  on  piece  work; 
I sewed  seventy-two  tips  for  five  cents. 

Q.  Sewed  seventy-two  tips  for  five  cents?  A,  Yes,  sir. 


620 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  That  is,  just  the  front  of  the  tip,  the  front  of  the  tip  you  had  to 
sew  on?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  you  sewed  seventy-two  tips  for  five  cents? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  and  if  you  spoiled  the  tips  you  were  charged  five  cents 
for  each  tip. 

Q.  You  were  charged  five  cents  for  each  tip  that  you  spoiled?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Regardless  of  whether  it  was  your  fault  or  the  fault  of  the  ma- 
chine? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  you  had  to  sew  on  seventy-two  more  tips  to  paj’^  for  the 
tip  that  you  spoiled?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  if  you  spoiled  a tip  in  sewing  them  on,  you  would  be 
charged  back  by  that  concern  the  price  that  you  got  for  sewing  six  dozen 
shoes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  truth?  A.  That  is  the  truth. 

Q.  You  are  stating  that  under  oath?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  How  much  did  you  make  a week  when 
they  put  you  on  the  piece  work  system?  A.  Some  weeks  I would  make 
more  than  others,  but  the  highest  we  ever  made  was  five  dollars. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  lowest?  A.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  It  would  seem.  Governor,  that  whenever  these 
girls  got  a wage  that  they  .could  live  on,  that  they  immediatel3'-  changed 
to  the  piece  system. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  When  they  put  j-ou  on  the  piece  sj^stem, 
how  did  they  go  about  it?  A.  They  would  tell  us  that  we  would  have 
to  go  on  piece  work. 

Q.  You  were  getting  six  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  they  came  around  and  told  you  that  you  would  have  to 
go  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  have  any  way  of  protesting?  A.  I could  not  say 
nothing;  I had  to  go  on  piece  work  or  quit. 

Q.  You  had  to  go  on  piece  work  or  quit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  And  this  piece  work  sj'stem  invariably  resulted 
in  your  getting  less  than  you  got  b^'  weekU'  wage?  A.  That  is  right. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  that  was  the  same  case  with  other  girls?  A.  So 
far  as  I know. 

Q.  The  general  run  of  girls  when  being  put  on  piece  work  would 
earn  less  when  doing  piece  work  than  at  salarjU  A.  Yes,  sir. 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  know  what  thej"  sell  these  shoes 
for?  A.  I do  not. 

0-  Are  the^'  expensive  shoes?  A.  Some  of  them  are  cheap  shoes. 

Q.  When  you  were  working  for  a wage  of  six  dollars  a week  there 
was  a foreman  over  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  you  didn’t  work  as  hard  as  this  foreman  thought  you 
should  work,  then  what  happened?  A.  He  would  come  around  and 
tell  us  to  work  harder.  It  was  not  exactly  mj-  fault,  mj-  machine  would 
not  go  as  fast  as  the  others,  and  I would  ask  him  to  fix  it  and  he  would 
answer  and  say  yes,  but  he  never  did. 

Q.  Did  your  foreman  swear  at  j'ou?  A.  No,  sir,  but  I have  seen 
't  done. 

Q.  By  your  foreman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Often?  A.  Yes. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


621 


Q.  What  was  the  name  of  your  foreman?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  name?  A.  I could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  What  department  was  that  in?  A.  In  the  stitching  department. 
Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  him  swear  at  any  of  the  girls?  A.  I have 
not  heard  it,  no,  sir,  I never  heard  him  curse.  I saw  him  grab  them 
and  shove  them. 

Q.  When  they  put  you  on  piece  work  did  they  still  fine  you  for 
being  late?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  still  fined  you  ten  cents  for  being  five  minutes  late?  A. 
They  never  fined  me,  but  I have  heard  girls  say  they  were  docked. 

Q.  While  they  were  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Docked  for  being  late?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  were  on  piece  work  had  you  any  way  of  checkin?  up 
the  amount  of  work  you  had  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  kept  track  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  sure. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all.  Thank  you. 

Charles  W.  Derby’s  Testimony. 

CHARLES  W.  DERBY,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Charles  W. 
Derby. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Superintendent  of  the  shoe  factory  of  the 
International  Shoe  Company. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  so  employed?  A.  A year  and  a half. 

Q.  Before  that  time,  Mr.  Derby,  what  was  your  business?  A.  The 
same  business. 

Q.  At  the  same  place?  A.  No,  I was  in  Massachusetts  before  I came 
here;  I came  out  here  a year  ago  last  November. 

Q.  Were  you  working  for  the  same  people?  A.  No. 

Q.  Then  you  have  only  been  connected  with  the  International  Shoe  Com- 
pany during  the  last  year  and  a half?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  superintendent  there  you  had  the  power  both  to  hire  and  discharge 
girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  employed  in  the  Springfield  factory 
of  the  International  Shoe  Company?  A.  There  are  258  girls,  I believe. 

Q.  All  those  girls  are  on  piece  work?  A.  Not  all,  nearly  all  piece  work; 
not  all  but  nearly  so. 

Q.  What  was  the  smallest  amount  paid  to  any  girl  in  your  employ  last 
week?  A.  I don’t  know,  probably  four  dollars;  we  start  a woman  in  at  four 
and  four  and  a half.  But  some  of  the  girls  in  working  piece  work,  they  work 
only  half  time.  I don’t  know  what  the  price  is,  what  the  pay-roll  is.  They 
are  liable  to  come  in  and  only  work  half  of  the  time  and  the  roll  will  only 
show  a small  amount,  like  for  some  of  those  girls  that  testified,  and  there  is 
no  more  truth  in  what  they  said. 

Q.  Then,  to  begin  with,  you  desire  to  enter  a denial  of  everything  that  has 
been  said?  A.  No,  not  everything,  but  largely  so. 

Q.  During  the  year  and  a half  that  you  have  been  there  what  is  the  least 
amount  paid  to  any  girl  who  worked  a full  week  there?  A.  Well,  I can’t  sav. 

Q.  You  don’t  know?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  know  whether  these  girls  told  the  truth  or  not?  A. 
Well,  I don’t  know,  some  girl  might  work  by  piece  work  and  do  only  a small 
amount  of  work  and  the  pay  roll  would  show  a small  amount,  but  whether  she 
worked  the  full  week  or  not,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  a full  week?  A.  Fifty-nine  hours. 


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Q.  That  is  a full  week?  A.  Yes,  sir.  If  they  run  full  time,  Saturday  is 
dne  hours ; we  run  full  time,  and  if  they  are  not  there  full  time  then  they  lose 
the  benefit  of  that  hour  on  Saturday,  that  is  just  given  as  an  incentive  for  full 
time. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  Q.  I didn’t  get  your  name.  A.  Derby. 

Q.  What  position  do  you  occupy  in  the  shoe  company?  A.  Superintendent. 

Q.  You  are  a superintendent  of  the  local  factory  or  a general  superin- 
tendent of  all  the  enterprises?  A.  Just  this  factory;  they  have  about  twenty 
factories. 

Q.  They  are  located,  as  far  as  you  know,  where?  A.  In  St.  Louis,  their 
headquarters  are  in  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Will  you  state  to  this  Committee  where  the  financial  interests  of  the 
International  Shoe  Company  are;  what  I mean  by  that  is,  where  the  men  are 
that  are  the  real  bone  and  sinew  of  this  company?  A.  Mr.  Jackson  Johnson 
is  the  president  of  the  concern. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Jackson  Johnson  a citizen  of  the  State  of  Illinois?  A.  Of  St. 
Louis,  Missouri. 

Q.  He  is  a citizen  of  St.  Louis,  Missouri?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it,  so  far  as  you  know,  a family  corporation  or  are  there  a number 
of  stockholders?  A.  There  are  a reat  number  of  stockholders.  The  Inter- 
national company  is  made  up  of  different  concerns,  the  Peter’s  Shoe  Compan}', 
and  since  that  time  there  has  been  other  shoe  companies  consolidated. 

Q.  If  I undrstand  the  situation  correctly  the  capital  stock  of  your  concern 
is  twenty-five  million  dollars,  is  that  correct?  ’A.  Something  like  that. 

Q.  And  so  far  as  you  know  it  is  a concern  that  is  doing  a fairly  profitable 
business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  it  in  your  power  to  make  the  condition  more  or  less  bear- 
able or  unbearable  than  it  seems  to  be  for  these  girls  at  the  present  time?  A. 
To  a certain  extent,  but  not  wholly,  no,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  extent  have  you  it  in  your  power  to  make  the  wage  condi- 
tion of  the  girls  in  Illinois  bearable,  or  to  what  extent  have  you  it  in  3'our  power 
to  make  it  possible  for  girls  who  give  you  their  time  from  Monday  morning 
to  Saturday  night,  to  become  self-supporting;  to  what  extent  can  you  help 
them?  A.  We  make  a class  wage  of  different  prices  in  factories. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  it  ranges  from  six  to  thirteen  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  state  now  to  this  committee  that  jmu  have  a class 
wage  ranging  from  six  dollars  a week  minimum?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  thirteen  dollars  maximum?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  have  none  in  your  factory  to  whom  j-ou  pay  less  than  six 
dollars  a week?  A.  No,  that  is  possibly  the  lowest  price. 

Q.  That  means  that  if  a girl  can  grind  out  a certain  amount  of  work  as  you 
think  would  justify  you  in  paying  six  dollars  a week,  then  j-ou  paj-  that  six 
dollars?  A.  You  can  state  it  as  you  see  fit.  It  is  a day’s  work. 

Q.  But  you  base  it  on  what  is  a day’s  work?  A.  Yes.  We  have  a man 
that  makes  fit  his.  business  to  compare  it  with  the  work  in  other  factories  in 
making  up  these  wages.  Anything  that  we  state  is  done,  the  amount  we  ask 
for  is  done  in  other  factories. 

Q.  Now,  to  come  up  to  that  class  w'age  it  is  necessarj-  to  make — the  lowest 
class  which  you  state  is  six  dollars  a week- — it  is  necessarj^  to  sew  shoe  tips  at 
the  rate  of  six  dozen  for  five  cents  in  order  to  get  that  six  dollars  a week?  A 
No,  we  don’t  charge  six  dozen  for  five  cents. 

Q.  One  of  these  girls  has  stated  that  she  was  paid  five  cents  for  sewing 
on  seventy-two  shoe  tips,  that  is  three  dozen  pairs?  A.  Three  dozen  pairs. 

Q.  That  is  seventy-two  shoes?  A.  Yes,  but  I know  that  is  what  is  done 
all  over  the  United  States ; I have  been  in  the  shoe  business  all  my  life,  and  any 
girl  that  is  in  any  ways  experienced  at  all  can  make  from  eight  to  ten  dollars 
a week  on  it. 

Q.  It  is  the  one  that  falls  below'  that  that  w'e  are  interested  in;  what  can 


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623 


she  make  in  your  factory  doing  that  work?  A.  That  is  something  that  I 
ian’t  say.  It  is  according  to  the  ability  of  the  girl  and  what  she  can  do.  We 
hire  girls  when  we  need  them,  but  we  don’t  hire  them  for  less  than  four  or 
)ive  dollars  a week. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  that  you  do  not  hire  girls  for  less  than  four  dollars? 

No,  sir. 

Q.  On  a wage  basis?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  when  you  hire  them  you  reserve  the  right  to  put  them  on  a piece 
oasis  whenever  you  feel  like  it?  A.  We  surely  do. 

! Q.  Well,  what  does  that  change  result  in?  A.  We  work  them  up  until 
iwe  are  able,  on  a piece  basis,  on  a piece  to  earn  more  than  what  they  are  doing 
(by  the  week.  When  they  get  into  that  stage,  we  change  them  over  to  go  by  the 
(piece.  It  is  to  their  interest  that  we  do  it. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  committee  that  whenever  you  change  a girl 
[from  the  wage  system,  where  you  are  paying  her  as  much  as  six  dollars  a week, 
ito  the  piece  system,  that  it  is  done  in  order  to  better  the  condition  of  the  girls? 
ilA.  Yes,  sir,  but  there  might  be  exceptions  in  this  way:  we  might  have  a girl 
jithat  worked  along  a month  or  two  months  at  that  wage,  and  she  could  not  do 
any  more  at  the  end  of  the  time  than  she  did  when  she  began,  and  when  she 
is  put  onto  a piece  basis  she  might  not  be  able  to  earn  as  much  as  on  the  weekly 
wage  system,  but  on  the  other  hand  you  can  go  in  and  see  girls  who  are  working 
under  the  piece  system  and  are  earning  six,  eight  or  ten  dollars  a week.  She 
might  not  be  able  to  earn  that  at  any  time. 

I SENATOR  JUUL:  Won’t  you  speak  a little  bit  louder,  please;  the  stenog- 
(raphers  here  cannot  here  what  you  say. 

THE  WITNESS;  I don’t  care  anything  about  them.  I don’t  care  whether 
(they  hear  or  not. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Well,  I do.  You  say  you  don’t  care  about  them?  A. 
No. 

Q.  Your  firm  doesn’t  seem  to  care  about  anybody,  does  it?  A.  I think 
we  do. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  have  sat  here  this  morning  and’ listened  to  state- 
ments under  oath  by  young  women  that  are  employed  by  your  concern.  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  one  of  them  says  that  your  firm  makes  them  sew  tips  on  seventy- 
two  shoes  for  a nickel.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  one  of  them  has  stated  it  under  oath 

THE  WITNESS;  But  she  has  not  told  all 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I am  talking  now;  listen  to  me. 

THE  WITNESS ; All  right. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  One  of  them  stated  that  they  had  to  sew  the  tips  on 
j seventy-two  shoes  for  which  they  got  a nickel,  and  if  they  unfortunately  spoiled 
one,  no  matter  whether  it  was  the  fault  of  your  machine  or  her  fault,  you 
' docked  them  the  entire  price  of  the  seventy-two  shoes,  lopped  that  off  of  their 
wages ; that  is  what  has  been  stated  here  under  oath  this  morning,  and  I want 
to  ask  you  a direct  question  right  here  and  now,  and  I want  you  to  give  me  a 
direct  answer  to  it:  is  that  the  truth  or  isn’t  it  the  truth? 

THE  WITNESS:  Yes,  we  have  charged  them  for  spoiling  tips. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  tell  you  here  and  now  while  you  have  made 
, your  statement  as  to  what  you  care  about  these  gentlemen  sitting  here,  I want 
to  tell  you  right  now  that  I wish  for  one  that  I had  the  power  to  drive  concerns 
like  yours  out  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  that’s  what  I wish;  you  are  a dis- 
grace to  the  State. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA : Let  me  add  to  that  by  saying  the  conditions  testi- 
fied to  here  constitute,  if  true,  the  greatest  disgrace  to  this  State  that  this  Com- 
mittee has  found  in  all  its  investigations. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  to  tell  you  another  thing:  that  one  of  the 
causes  that  drove  this  Committee  into  the  wage  inquiry  in  the  State  of  Illinois, 
instead  of  a vice  inquiry,  was  a girl  that  had  worked  for  you  in  the  city  of  St. 
Louis,  and  she  became  a prostitute  because  your  concern  only  paid  her  $3.50  a 


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week;  that  is  what  made  this  inquiry  a wage  inquiry  for  the  time  being  instead 
of  a vice  inquiry.  It  was  up  to  that  minute  a vice  inquiry,  and  we  went  into 
executive  session  because  the  story  that  poor  girl  told  this  Committee  was  so 
horrible  that  it  could  not  be  printed. 

THE  WITNESS : Don’t  you  think  it  would  be  well  to  get  some  of  these 
statements  thqt  are  characterizing  us  and  have  them  looked  up? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  are  trying  to  get  the  facts,  and  if  you  will 
take  the  trouble  to  speak  up  so  that  the  reporter  here  will  hear  you  I 
will  be  obliged  to  you.  Now  then,  you  stated  a minute  ago  that  your 
concern  was  a twenty-five  million  dollar  concern,  is  that  right?  A.  I 
don’t  know. 

Q.  Now,  ! want  to  ask  you,  have  you  the  power  while  representing 
this  concern  in  the  State  of  Illinois,  to  stop  the  robbing  of  these  girls 
of  this  five  cents  per  seventy-two  shoes  when  they  make  a mistake; 
do  you  possess  that  power  or  don’t  you?  A.  Well,  I think  I do. 

Q.  Will  you  see,  as  a preliminary  proposition,  as  the  outcome  of 
this  investigation  that  it  is  stopped?  A.  Nowq  that  is  a custom  that  is, 
as  far  as  I know,  all  over  the  United  States. 

Q.  It  is  an  outrageous  custom,  that  is  all  I have  got  to  say  for  it, 
and  it  should  not  be  tolerated.  A.  What  are  you  going  to  do  when 
girls  persist  in  doing  things  wrong? 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  the  girls  persist  in 
breaking  or  tearing  the  shoe  tips  when  she  has  got  to  sew  seventy-two 
shoes  in  order  to  make  up  the  nickel  that  you  take  away  from  her  every 
time  she  spoils  a shoe  tip;  do  you  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  any 
girl  does  that  wilfully?  A.  Well,  carelessly. 

Q.  She  does  it  because  in  sewing  the  tips  on  those  shoes  certain 
numbers  of  accidents  will  happen,  frequently  due  to  the  fault  in  your 
machines,  isn’t  that  the  fact?  A.  There  might  be  cases  of  that  kind. 

Q.  I will  tell  you  what,  I say  that  no  human  being  in  the  State 
of  Illinois  should  work  for  j'^our  concern,  which  you  say  is  a twentj'-five 
million  dollar  concern,  without  being  paid  what  it  takes  to  feed  her.  not 
only  to  give  her  good  food  but  to  properly  clothe  her  and  give  her  a 
good,  decent  bed  for  her  to  stay  in  nights:  what  does  it  take  to  do  that, 
do  you  know?  I will  give  you  a sheet  of  paper.  Now  give  us  the  figures. 
A.  With  work  that  we  give  them  any  man  can  earn  nine  and  ten  dollars 
a week,  and  they  do  it  right  along. 

Q.  What  becomes  of  the  girls  who,  like  some  of  the  girls  that  have 
been  before  this  Committee,  instead  of  getting  eight  or  ten  dollars  a 
week,  are  only  paid  three  and  three  and  a half  and  four  dollars  a week? 
A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  do  you  propose  that  the  female  is  to  make  up  the  deficit 
between  that  which  you  pay  her  and  that  which  is  necessary-  to  feed  and 
clothe  and  house  her,  or  don’t  you  consider  that  there  is  a moral  or  a 
legal  obligation  on  the  part  of  ymur  firm  or  company-  to  set  aside  enough 
for  each  girl  to  live  on  before  you  set  aside  moneys  for  profit  on  your 
twenty-five  million  dollar  investment,  if  it  ever  was  an  investment?  A. 
Well,  of  course  that  part  of  the  business  would  be  up  to  the  people  who 
own  the  business  rather  than  me. 

Q.  Yes,  but  you  are  the  superintendent;  we  haven’t  got  them  here, 
and  we  have  got  to  do  business  with  men  that  we  have  before  us.  A. 
To  some  extent  you  can  remedy  these  faults.  I presume.  As  I say, 
this  is  class  wage  that  we  lay  out  for  certain  work;  one  of  my  duties 
is  to  see  that  conditions  are  made  so  that  the  girls  can  earn  these  wages, 
and  if  they  don’t,  if  we  find  that  the  wages  should  be  raised,  see  that 
they  can;  but  this  amount  we  claim  is  right. 

Q.  What  do  you  claim  is  right  for  a young  woman  who  gives  you 
her  time  from  Monday  morning  to  Saturday  night?  A.  It  makes  a 
difference  what  she  does. 

Q.  It  doesn’t  make  any  difference  as  to  her  wants?  A.  It  certainly 
does. 

Q.  In  order  to  come  down  to  you  she  must  be  fed  in  order  to  stand 
the  grind,  and  she  should  be  fed?  A.  Yes,  sir;  certainly-'. 


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625 


j Q.  Now,  do  you  feel  a moral  obligation  to  feed  that  girl?  A.  Why, 

tertainly  she  has  got  to  be  fed. 

i Q.  Do  you  feel  that  a girl  should  be  clothed  in  some  sort  of  a 
lalf  decent  way;  do  you  feel  a moral  obligation  to  clothe  her  in  some 
sort  of  a half  decent  way:  do  you  feel  that  obligation  resting  on  your 
irm?  A.  Well,  I suppose  that  wbuld  be. 

] Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  is  the  way  that  you  ought  to  look  at  it? 

Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  any  horses  in  your  business?  A.  What? 

Q.  Horses;  do  you  do  your  own  hauling?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  had  a horse  would  you  feed  it?  A.  I thmk  I would. 

I Q.  And  you  would  house  it?  A.  Surely. 

' Q.  And  you  would  have  a blanket  in  the  winter  time  for  it  so  it 

[would  not  catch  cold;  now,  do  you  feel  that  your  firm  ought  to  do  that 
Imuch  for  your  girls?  A.  I do,  but  we  could  not  pay  the  same  -wages 
for  all  operations  in  all  different  parts  of  the  work,  because  there  is  so 
^uch  difference  in  the  scale  of  work,  and  in  the  skill  required.  Some 
.work  you  can  do  a great  deal  more  of  than  you  can  do  others, 
j Q.  Yes?  A.  And  that  is  the  way  that  we  have  tried  to  do  it. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  are  doing  entirely  too  much  dodging.  I 
,wish  you  would  bring  here  to  this  Committee  a list  of  the  number  of 
women  that  you  have  employed  about  your  institution  in  the  various 
groups,  from  the  lowest  group,  starting  with  the  lowest  wages,  and  run- 
ning to  the  highest  group  being  paid  the  highest  wages,  and  put  on  that 

list  the  number  of  girls  and  the  number  of  days  each  week  and  dollars 

earned  each  week  for  each  group  of  girls,  and  I wish  you  would  be  pre- 
pared to  swear  to  it. 

THE  WITNESS:  Now,  see  if  I get  you  straight;  you  want  what? 

1 SENATOR  JUUL:  I want  your  pay  roll, 
j THE  WITNESS:  For  each  operation? 

I SENATOR  JUUL:  Yes,  beginning  with  the  lowest  paid  girl,  and  we 
want  to  ge  at  the  percentage  or  average;  we  want  to  get  at  the  minimum. 

;We  are  going  to  try  to  make  the  people  humane  in  the  State  of  Illinois 

by  law  if  we  can’t  do  it  by  argument. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Derby,  I want  to  ask  you  a few  ques- 
tions. Do  you  employ  any  men  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  have?  A.  We  have  two  hundred  and  forty- 
eight  men. 

Q.  Are  those  men  members  of  a labor  union?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Are  those  girls  members  of  any  labor  union?  A.  They  don’t 
Ineed  any;  if  they  belong  to  any  we  don’t  know  of  any. 

' Q.  Is  the  International  Shoe  Company  known  as  a non-union  labor 
concern?  A.  I don’t  know. 

I Q.  Do  your  shoes  carry  the  union  label?  A.  No,  sir,  they  don’t. 

Q.  What  do  your  shoes  sell  at?  A.  Oh,  they  make  all  grades,  shoes 
That  are  retailed  at  six  dollars  down  to  the  little  soft-soled  shoes  that 
children  use;  grades  of  each  kind.  We  will  take  the  men’s  shoes;  they 
run  from  a cheap  shoe  up  to  a good  one,  and  ladies’  shoes  the  same. 

Q.  This  twenty-five  million  dollar  concern  is  known  as  a non-union 
concern?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  This  concern  that  grinds  these  little  girls  is  one  of  the  enemies  of 
[organized  labor?  A.  I don’t  know  whether  it  is  or  not;  they  don’t  deal 
with  union  labor. 

Q.  Did  Senator  Juul  ask  you  concerning  your  profits  last  year?  A. 
No,  I don’t  know  anything  about  it.  This  is  just  one  branch  of  the  busi- 
ness; the  principal  office  of  this  business  is  in  St.  Louis. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  He  stated,  Governor,  that  he  had  nothing  to  do 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


with  the  financial  end  of  it;  nothing  to  do  with  the  financial  marageinent 
of  the  concern. 

Q.  You  are  just  a salaried  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  a profit  sharer  in  the  business?  A.  No,  sir;  just  simply 
a salaried  man. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  ever  give  instructions  to  Bill  Alex- 
ander or  any  of  the  other  foremen  in  there  to  drive  these  girls?  A.  No. 
sir,  never. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  instructions  to  any  of  your  foremen  to  swear 
at  them?  A.  Never;  I gave  them  instructions  not  to. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  tell  Bill  Alexander  that  he  would  have  to  get  out  cf 

the  girls  in  his  department  a certain  amount  of  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  tell  Bill  Alexander  that  his  salary  depended  on  the 
amount  of  work  that  he  got  out  of  the  girls?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Has  any  girl  ever  complained  to  you  about  swearing  at  her  by 
Bill  Alexander  or  any  other  foreman  in  your  employ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  complaints  have  been  made?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Can  any  girl  so  complain  to  you?  A.  They  can  if  they'  see  fit. 

Q.  Where  is  your  office?  A.  In  the  building  there. 

Q.  Can  any  girl  go  into  your  office  without  being  stopped?  A.  Oh. 
no. 

Q.  Then  if  a foreman  were  swearing  at  a girl,  she  could  not  get  into 
your  office  to  complain  about  it?  A.  Yes,  she  could. 

Q.  If  this  foreman  should  grab  her  by  the  arm  and  shove  her  around 
because  she  could  not  work  fast  enough  for  him,  could  that  girl  get  into 
your  office  to  tell  you  about  it?  A.  She  can  come  right  to  the  office,  so 
far  as  that  is  concerned. 

Q.  Could  she  come  directly^  into  your  office  and  directly  to  you?  A. 
No,  she  could  not;  I am  through  the  factory  most  all  the  time;  I spend 
most  of  the  time  in  my  factory. 

Q.  No  girl  ever  got  up  courage  enough  to  complain  to  y'ou,  did  she? 
A.  I never  had  anybody  come  to  complain  to  me;  they  could  if  they  saw 
fit. 

Q.  That  is,  she  could  come  to  you  if  she  were  ready^  to  quit  her 
job?  A.  Oh,  I don’t  know. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  us  get  the  names  and  localities  of  other 
factories  belonging  to  your  concern  in  the  state  of  Illinois,  so  far  as  you 
know.  A.  In  Illinois  there  is  one  at  Jerseyville  and  one  at  Belleville;  the 
others  are  located  in  Missouri. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  corporations  in  Illinois  not  in  this  main  cor- 
poration that  are  tributary  to  or  affiliated  with  y'our  company  in  anv  wav? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Any  subsidiary  companies?  A.  No. 

O.  Any  underlying  companies?  A.  No,  they  are  all  in  this  one 
corporation. 

Q.  What  was  y^our  objection  to  our  investigator  when  he  called  at 
your  place  the  other  day;  didn’t  you  know  that  he  was  clothed  with  the 
power  of  the  State  to  make  investigations,  and  didn’t  he  intorm  you  that 
he  was  there  for  the  purpose  of  furnishing  information  to  us?  A.  No,  he 
asked  permission  to  look  in;  he  said  he  was  never  in  a shoe  factory  be- 
fore and  would  like  to  look  around. 

Q.  Did  he  give  you  a card?  A.  He  gave  me  a card,  and  asked  if 
there  was  any  objection  to  his  talking  to  a few  of  the  girls,  and  I told  him 
no.  It  was  noontime  and  I left  him  in  the  factory-  to  do  what  he  pleased. 
He  gave  me  his  card  but  I didn’t  know  by  his  card  what  that  really  meant. 

Q.  The  next  time  that  an  investigator  or  representative  of  this  Com- 
mittee will  come  to  your  factory,  will  he  be  shown  the  courtesy-  due  him? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


627 


i 

V.  We  have  nothing  to  conceal  at  all,  nothing  to  conceal  at  all.  Every- 
thing that  is  over  there  you  can  see. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Derby,  have  you  a daughter?  A.  Yes, 
ir. 

. Q.  Would  you  like  her — let  us  make  it  a personal  matter  with  you — 
Vould  you  like  to  have  your  own  daughter  treated  as  these  girls  say  your 
;ompany  treats  its  girl  employes?  A.  Well,  I — 

Q.  Yes  or  no,  Mr.  Derby.  A.  Just  as  you  would  in  any  factory; 
'hey  are  treated  just  the  same  as  they  are  in  any  other  factory,  but  so  far 
Is  my  daughter  goes,  I would  rather  she  would  not  go  to  any  factory  to 
work.  They  are  used  as  well  there  as  in  any  other  factory. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  This  man  that  went  to  the  different  fac- 
'.ories  and  investigated  what  was  done  at  the  various  factories  and  came 
oack  and  reported;  that  information  was  used  as  a basis  for  paying  the 
jirls  at  your  factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  He  visited  the  different  factories?  A.  Yes,  and  makes  up  these 
class  wages  from  what  he  can  gather  from  those  factories,  and  all  put  to- 
gether. 

i Q.  There  is  a national  association  of  shoe  manufacturers,  isn’t  there? 
A..  There  are  three  concerns  consolidated  together  that  make  this  concern. 
' Q.  Isn’t  there  a general  association?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know,  there 
is  a Manufacturers’  Association,  but  I don’t  know  what  it  amounts  to. 

’ Q.  So  this  man  visits  around  and  ascertains  the  different  prices  in  the 
different  factories?  A.  No,  only  in  our  own  factory;  I don’t  think  that  he 
'goes  into  other  factories;  I don’t  think  that  the  other  people  would  allow 
him  to.  ’ 

Q.  Who  employs  him?  A.  The  International  Shoe  Company. 

Q.  There  is  a national  association  of  shoe  manufacturers?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  are  a union  and  yet  you  don’t  care  to  deal  with  union  labor; 
you  won’t  deal  with  them  as  a union,  and  how  are  they  going  to  stand  and 
hold  their  own  against  a big  corporation  of  $25,000,000?  They  have  got  to 
stand  quiet  while  you  organize.  A.  I don’t  know  what  a manufacturing 
association  means. 


' EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  manufacture  here  in  Springfield  a 
^complete  shoe  or  only  certain  parts  of  a shoe?  A.  Oh,  a complete  shoe. 
'Parts  of  the  shoe  come  cut  for  the  shoe,  but  we  manufacture  the  complete 
shoe. 

Q.  What  is  the  best  shoe  that  you  manufacture  in  Springfield,  what 
does  that  retail  for?  A.  About  $3.00,  or  possibly  more;  some  places  it 
might  retail  at  $3.25  or  $3.50,  it  depends  on  circumstances.  Some  places 
they  sell  for  more  than  they  do  at  other  places. 

I Q.  What  does  it  cost  you  actually  to  manufacture  here  that  $3.00  shoe? 
'A.  There  is  a lot  of  difference  in  the  shoes.  Some  of  the  shoes  cost  the 
manufacturer  more  than  we  get  for  them;  there  are  others  that  we  make  a 
little  on;  it  averages,  I should  say  it  won’t  average  over  five  cents  a pair 
profit.  ’ 

‘ Q.  I don’t  care  about  the  profit  right  now.  I want  to  know  what  it 
.costs  you  to  manufacture  a shoe  that  sells  for  $2.00,  that  retails  for  $2.00. 
A.  Yes,  that  $2.00  shoe  costs  us  to  manufacture  about  $1.90  or  $1.95. 

Q.  What  part  of  that  $1.95  goes  for  leather  and  materials?  A.  I 
could  not  say  offhand  now.  I think  there  is  about  26  cents  of  labor  in  each 
pair. 

Q.  When  you  bring  your  payroll  in,  will  you  also  bring  a list  showing 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


how  that  26  cents  is  distributed  among  the  laborers?  A.  I could  probablj 
do  that  if  I had  the  payroll  and  the  prices  of  each  part  as  paid. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  you  any  idea  in  your  mind  when  a girl  i; 
sixteen  or  eighteen  years  old  at  what  wage  she  can  live  comfortably,  have 
decent,  respectable  clothes  and  pay  for  her  board;  say  a girl  sixteen  oi 
eighteen  years  of  age?  A.  Well,  that  is  a pretty  hard  question  to  answer 

Q.  To  pay  for  her  board,  have  a bed  to  sleep  in  nights  and  clothe  her- 
self and  have  a few  cents  or  a dollar  extra  occasionally?  A.  I should  sa> 
that  the  least  she  could  do  it  with  is  around  $7.00. 

Q.  Now,  what  would  you  think  of  a minimum  w’age  scale;  we  have 
three  or  four  bills  pending  over  there,  and  it  is  a question  of  what  is  the 
right  bill;  can  you  give  us  any  suggestion  of  what  you  think  would 
be  a fair  thing  to  do;  for  instance,  some  say,  in  Chicago  and  Peoria 
and  wherever  we  have  been,  that  a girl  can  live  right  on  $8.00  a week  sc 
that  she  can  keep  straight  and  do  right;  what  would  you  think  of  grading 
that  scale  and  taking  a girl  say  for  the  first  six  months  at  such  a rate  and 
then  the  next  six  months  at  so  much;  what  would  you  think  would  be  a fair 
minimum  scale  to  make  a law  in  this  state?  The  time  is  going  to  come,  and 
you  are  manufacturing  in  this  State,  and  you  will  understand  it  has  got  tc 
come  one  way  or  another;  what  do  you  think  would  be  the  best  plan,  as  a 
suggestion  from  you?  A.  I would  not  want  to  make  a statement  on  that 
because  I can’t  give  you  a statement. 

Q.  Well,  offhand?  A.  I don’t  know,  possibly  around  $7.00,  is  that 
what  you  have  had  in  mind? 

Q.  We  haven’t  arrived  at  any  conclusion  as  yet,  we  are  just  trying  tc 
find  out  what  will  be  the  best.  A.  There  are  plenty  of  girls  that  can  make 
the  minimum  wage  of  $6.00  or  $5.00  and  they  never  will  try  to  get  ahead 

Q.  You  would  have  the  power  to  hire  or  discharge;  it  would  not  be 
compulsory  on  your  part  to  keep  these  girls;  suppose  it  was  $7.00  or  $8.0C 
a week,  this  legal  minimum  wage?  A.  There  would  be  about  half  that 
we  could  not  keep. 

Q.  That  would  not  fill  the  bill?  A.  No,  sir.  There  are  some  of  them 
that  don’t  ever  try  to  work,  don’t  care  to  work. 

Q Why?  A.  They  don’t  seem  to  want  to  work.  We  have  girls  that 
had  one  position  where  some  of  the  girls  could  earn  about  $9.00  a week. 
There  is  work  right  along,  and  they  will  work  a time  and  then  they  will  be 
off  a day  or  two.  Places  where  they  can  earn  up  to  $9.00  a week,  and  they 
would  not  try.  So  it  looks  to  me  that  even  with  a minimum  wage  of  $6.0C 
they  would  not  try.  Even  in  these  cases  you  will  find  some  of  them  go  to 
work,  but  don’t  really  care  to  work.  There  are  so  many  different  girls,  I 
would  not  know  what  to  say. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Well,  think  it  over  and  tell  us  the  next  time  you 
see  us.  We  want  the  information.  That  is  all  for  the  present. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  first  state  in  the  union  that  responded 
to  the  request  of  this  Committee  for  the  creation  of  similar  committees  in 
all  the  other  states  that  legislation  might  be  uniform  was  Missouri,  which 
authorized  a committee  of  five  identically  like  this  to  co-operate  with  this 
Committee.  I would  suggest  to  the  judgment  of  my  colleagues  that  we 
submit  to  the  committee  in  Missouri  the  evidence  brought  before  this  Com- 
mittee today,  inasmuch  as  the  head  offices  of  this  concern  seem  to  be  in 
Missouri. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  the  name  of  that  concern?  A.  The 
name  is  the  International  Shoe  Company. 

Q.  Of  what  concerns  is  that  a consolidation?  A.  The  Roberts, 
Johnson  and  Rann  Shoe  Company,  and  the  Peters  Shoe  Company. 

Q.  That  is  one  of  the  biggest  concerns  in  St.  Louis?  A.  Yes,  and  the 
Freemont-Sheldon  Shoe  Company. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


629 


ired  R.  Coates’  Testimony. 

FRED  R.  COATES,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
rst  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

. CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Fred  R.  Coates, 
t Q-  What  is  your  business?  A.  Watch  material  manufacturer. 

[ Q.  What  is  the  name  of  your  firm?  A.  It  goes  under  my  name, 

foates. 

I Q.  Is  it  incorporated?  A.  No,  sir. 

I Q.  Do  you  own  the  entire  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
i Q.  Where  is  your  factory  located?  A.  On  11th  and  Ash  streets. 

\ Q.  How  many  girls,  or  women,  do  you  employ  in  your  factory?  A. 

ibout  twenty-five. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  that  you  pay  any  woman  in  your  employ? 
\.  Well,  that  all  depends.  It  is  all  piece  work.  The  system  is  piece  work 
Irom  start  to  finish,  with  the  exceptions  of  the  beginning,  when  we  pay  them 
lay  work  in  order  to  encourage  them  to  learn,  and  the  old  system  has  been 
|fty  cents  a day  in  the  beginning.  That  lasts  for  possibly  a week  or  ten 
Jays  and  then  we  put  them  on  piece  work,  and  if  they  are  adapted  for  the 
york  they  will  make  from  $5.00  a week  up,  but  if  they  are  not  adapted  they 
Jon’t  develop.  It  is  simply  to  let  them  go  on. 

I Q.  How  often  do  they  quit,  Mr.  Coates?  A.  Well,  that  depends;  it 

Ss  simply  to  let  them  go  on  or  quit. 

I Q.  They  have  that  alternative?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  What  proportion  of  girls  quit  and  what  proportion  continue  on  for 

it  least  one  month  when  placed  on  the  piece  system?  A.  I have  got  quite 

i number  that  have  been  there  six  or  seven  years. 

, Q.  What  proportion  of  them  last  over  a month?  A.  I could  not  say. 

' Q.  Or  a year?  A.  I could  not  say. 

’ Q.  Half  of  them?  A.  Oh,  no. 

Q.  Half  of  them  don’t  last  at  all?  A.  They  last  for  more  than  that; 
j5he  would  probably  win  out  or  would  quit  inside  of  a week  or  ten  days, 
i Q.  What  proportion  would  that  be?  A.  About  one  out  of  ten  would 

juit  inside  of  ten  days. 

, Q.  That  leaves  nine  out  of  ten?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  Now,  how  many  of  the  nine  drop  out  the  first  month?  A.  Well, 

nost  of  them  have  been  there  for  a year  or  more;  it  would  be  impossible 
;or  me  to  state  or  give  any  idea. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  idea  how  many  of  them  do  drop  out?  A.  Unless 
:hey  should  stay  a year  or  more  I could  not  continue  the  business.  It  is 
difficult  work  to  do.  Unless  they  should  stay  there  the  first  month  or  six 
veeks,  during  that  time  they  can’t  do  anything. 

Q.  These  girls  are  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Take  last  week;  what  is  the  lowest  amount  of  money  that  you  paid 
my  girl  working  for  you  last  week?  A.  I don’t  know,  you  see,  we  don’t 
Ipay  every  week. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  pay  them?  A.  Once  a month. 

Q.  You  pay  on  what  day  of  the  month?  A.  On  the  ISth. 

Q.  That  is  for  services  from  the  15th  to  the  I5th?  A.  No,  it  is  from 
the  1st  to  the  1st. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Up  to  the  time  you  pay  you  practically  have  held 
pack  six  weeks’  wages  of  these  girls,  is  that  correct?  A.  From  the  first 
!day,  yes. 

Q.  From  the  day  they  first  commence  work  to  the  first  pay  day?  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  You  have  held  back  six  weeks’  pay  from  them,  is  that  correct?  A. 
That  is  correct. 

Q.  And  they  are  paid  in  April  for  the  month  of  March?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  What  is  the  lowest  amount  of  money  that  you  gave  to  any  of  them 

I 


630 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


that  work  for  you  from  the  first  day  of  March  to  the  last  day  of  March: 
what  is  the  lowest  amount  that  you  paid  to  any  of  the  girls  during  that 
month?  A.  I could  not  state  that. 

Q.  Where  is  your  pay  roll  for  March?  A.  I could  not  say,  I should 
judge  they  put  it  in  the  vault.  I think  the  lowest  would  be  about  $17.00  oi 
$18.00  and  running  up  to  $47.00. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  appear  here  next  Tuesday  evening 
with  your  pay  roll  for  February  and  March?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:_  What  is  the  foundation  of  the  pay  roll;  is  it  the 
foreman’s  time  sheets  or  time  cards?  A.  No;  it  is  a card  system,  and  they 
are  added  together,  and  the  totals  footed  up,  that  is,  footed  together.  Now. 
the  foreman  doesn’t  have  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Have  you  a weekly  resume  of  the  total  amount  that  you  pay'  these 
girls  for  each  week?  A.  No,  we  haven’t  got  that. 

Q.  Is  your  pay  roll  for  last  week  closed  now?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is.  We 
have  the  footings  for  the  entire  month. 

Q.  You  have  everything  for  March?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  You  bring  that  pay  roll  for  March  in  and  be  pre- 
pared to  swear  to  it. 

Q.  Are  there  any  girls  who  have  quit  your  employ  in  the  last  two  or 
three  weeks  where  you  are  holding  back  their  pay?  A.  Yes,  there  were  twc 
quit. 

Q.  Why  did  you  hold  back  their  pay?  A.  There  were  two  that  didn’t 
come  after  the  pay.  They  didn’t  work  while  they  were  there. 

Q.  They  stated  that  you  started  them  in  at  $3.00  a week,  and  that  after 
you  started  them  in  on  the  wage  basis  you  switched  to  the  piece  system  and 
dropped  them  down  to  $1.85  a week  and  then  they  quit,  and  then  instead  of 
paying  them  off  you  haven’t  paid  them  yet,  is  that  correst?  A.  I haven’t 
paid  them  yet;  that  is  true.  If  they  don’t  ask  for  it,  how  can  I pay  it?  Do 
you  expect  me  to  go  down  and  hunt  them  up  and  pay  them? 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I would  expect  you  almost  to  go  down  to  their 
house  and  pay  them,  if  that  is  all  that  you  intend  to  pay  them  for  what  they 
have  done.  I want  to  say  right  now  that  you  ought  to  have  a machine  and 
go  around  and  pay  them  off,  since  you  are  asking  me  for  my  opinion,  and  I 
am  going  to  state  it  to  you  freely.  I don’t  think  that  any  emploj'e  ouehttobe 
compelled  to  come  back  to  you  at  the  prices  you  have  paid  them,  if  such  a 
statement  is  true,  and  waste  a half  a day,  besides  carfare,  in  order  to  get  it. 
If  you  ask  me  for  my  opinion  I will  state  it  to  you  frankly'.  You  certainly 
should  go  to  their  houses  and  pay  them. 


EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  was  j'our  pay  roll  last  month?  A. 
About  $1,500.00. 

Q.  That  was  your  total  pay  roll?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  persons  on  that  pay  roll  did  that  cover?  A.  I haven’t 
figured  it  up,  I really  could  not  say. 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  there  on  it?  A.  About  twenty- 

five. 

Q.  How  many  men  on  it?  A.  I believe  there  are  ten. 

Q.  Do  you  allow  y'ourself  a salary'?  A.  No. 

Q.  Then  that  $1,500  covered  thirty'-five  people?  A.  \es,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  highest  salarv  paid  to  anybodv  on  that  pay  roll?  A 

$120.00. 

Q.  A month?  A.  A month. 

Q.  Was  that  a man  or  woman?  A.  A man. 

Q.  How  much  money  have  you  invested  in  your  business  there?  A 
About  $75,000.00. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


631 


Q.  That  is  actually  invested;  that  is  not  what  you  consider  the  business 
iis  worth  with  the  good  will  and  all?  That  is  the  building  and  all. 

Q.  The  building  and  real  estate  and  everything?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  money  that  you  have  actually  put  into  the  business?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  No  watered  stock  or  anything  of  that  kind?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  your  profits  last  year?  A.  There  wasn’t  any. 

Q.  You  didn’t  make  any  money  last  year?  A.  No. 

! Q.  How  much  did  you  lose?  A.  That  is  pretty  hard  to  say. 

Q.  You  did  lose  money  last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  you  lost  money,  then?  A.  Because  I know  how 
my  business  has  run. 

Q.  A thousand  dollars?  A.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  say  just  exactly;  I 
haven’t  figured  it  out. 

Q.  The  year  before  that  did  you  make  any  money?  A.  Very  little. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  make?  A.  Why,  possibly  $700.00  or  $800.00. 

Q.  When  you  say  you  lost  money  last  year,  are  you  figuring  in  the 
interest  on  this  $75,000.00  and  a certain  amount  for  depreciation,  your  own 
services  and  all  other  items  of  wear,  tear  and  expense,  actual  and  theoretical? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  way  you  figured  you  lost  money?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is 
the  way  I figured  it,  yes,  sir. 

Q.What  interest  did  you  allow  on  your  $75,000.00  under  that  system  of 
bookkeeping?  A.  Oh,  four  per  cent. 

Q.  And  you  figured  $75,000.00,  four  per  cent  on  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Let  me  ask  you  to  what  extent,  if  to  any  extent, 
does  the  competition  of  the  big  combines  in  the  watch  manufacturing  busi- 
ness interfere  with  the  successful  running  of  your  plant;  are  you  a competi- 
tor in  business?  A.  I am  not  a competitor  of  the  watch  factories. 

Q.  You  are  in  a line  of  work  that  is  separate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  line  of  w^ork  do  you  follow?  A.  Parts  of  watches. 

Q.  You  don’t  attempt  to  manufacture  watches?  A.  No,  we  don’t 
, complete  the  watch. 

Q.  So  your  market  is  practically  the  other  factories;  other  factories 
are  manufacturing?  A.  No,  I sell  to  jobbers  and  they  distribute  to  job- 
bers for  repair  work. 

Q.  So  the  manufacturing  of  new  watches  and  hammering  down  of 
prices  don’t  interfere  with  the  profitable  running  of  your  business?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  any  competition  in  your  line  of  business?  A.  Why, 
yes,  we  have  some. 

Q.  Coming  right  down  to  the  humane  side  of  this  proposition,  Mr. 
Coates,  is  it  possible  to  run  the  kind  of  business  that  you  are  engaged  in 
and  yet  pay  fair  living  wages  to  your  woman  employes?  A.  I do  pay  fair 
living  wages. 

Q.  You  don’t  according  to  the  testimony  drawn  out  here.  A.  It  is 
not  fair  to  take  the  testimony  of  one  or  two;  if  you  will  take  the  testimony 
of  our  girls  down  there  that  have  been  with  us  some  length  of  time  you  will 
find  it  different. 

Q.  Would  we  get  beyond  $5.00  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think  w^e  had  better  let  Mr.  Coates  off  until  we 
get  the  rest  of  these  girls  in. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I wonder  if  Mr.  Coates  has  any  idea  what  it 
costs  a girl  to  live  here  in  Springfield?  A.  I could  not  say.  It  is  really 
out  of  my  line. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  do  you  arrive  at  this  system  of  paying 
once  a month;  it  is  a matter  of  right  or  wrong;  do  you  think  that  is  right, 
do  you?  A.  I don’t  see  anything  wrong  with  it.  A great  many  people 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


favor  it,  claiming  that  they  have  more  money  together  than  they  would 
otherwise  have. 

Q.  Do  you  favor  it?  A.  Yes. 

SENATOR  JULL:  But  they  are  poor  people  and  they  have  got  to 
eat,  and  you  are  practically  putting  them  to  the  test  of  waiting  four  or  five 
or  six  weeks  for  their  earnings;  don’t  you  think  that  is  a hardship?  A.  I 
don’t  know. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  They  might  be  able  to  live  from  week  to 
week,  but  they  might  not  be  able  to  live  from  month  to  month.  What  do 
you  say?  A.  I don’t  believe  I am  in  a position  to  answer.  . 

Whereupon,  on  motion  duly  seconded  and  put,  the  Committee 
adjourned  to  8 o’clock  P.  M.,  Tuesday,  April  29,  A.  D.  1913,  to 
meet  again  at  the  same  place. 


SESSION  XXIII 


Evening  session  held  to  hear  testimony  of  several  more  girl 
workers  at  Springfield  plant  of  International  Shoe  Co.  Attempt 
to  interrupt  proceedings  during  hearing  of  working  girls’  testi- 
mony fails.  Foreman  of  paper  box  factory  hears  several  witnesses 
' charge  him  with  cruelty  and  mistreatment  and  denies  their  accu- 
sations. Testimony  of: 

Margaret  Brennan,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Viola  Patters,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Della  Morris,  employe  International  Shoe  Co. 

Hadia  Fromm,  former  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Emma  Malinski,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Regina  Tacoma,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Della  Morris,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Mary  Casper,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Marie  Troth,  former  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Jennie  Holtzman,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Lucille  Flynn,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co, 

Margaret  Balter,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Anna  Young,  employe.  International  Shoe  Co. 

William  Alexander,  shop  foreman.  International  Shoe  Co. 

Springfield,  111.,  April  29,  1913,  8:00  o’clock  P.  M. 
The  Committee  met,  pursuant  to  notice,  at  the  Leland  Hotel.  All 
imembers  being  present,  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  The 
sergeant  will  call  Miss  Margaret  Brennan. 

Margaret  Brennan’s  Testimony. 

MARGARET  BRENNAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
reing  first  duly  sworn,  was  examined  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified 
IS  follows: 

CHAIRMAN:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Brennan. 

MR.  MORTIMER:  May  I have  a word? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  This  meeting  is  called  merely  as  an  inquiry. 
Do  you  want  to  go  on  the  witness  stand  for  anything?  This  is  merely 
for  these  girls  to  testify.  If  you  wish  to  testify,  come  up  here  and  do  so 
under  oath. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  May  he  not  say  a word?  My  name  is  Fitz- 
gerald. If  I may  have  a word  I would  like  to  have  it. 

j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Not  at  this  time,  Mr.  Fitzgerald.  The  wit- 
mess  has  been  sworn. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Not  at  this  time,  Mr.  Fitzgerald. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  This  is  a public  hearing,  is  it  not? 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  can’t  hear  you  now,  Mr.  Fitzgerald. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Brennan. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please- 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen  or 
^eighteen.  s 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please 

fCat  calls  and  uproar.) 

, CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where  do  you  live?  A.  Springfield. 

633 


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oM  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Do  you  live  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please — may  we  not  be 
heard? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  long  have  you  been  working?  A. 
Three  months. 

Q.  At  what  place?  A.  At  the  box  factory. 

Q.  That  is  at  the  International  Shoe  Company?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  work  have  you  been  doing  there?  A.  Well,  folding  boxes 
and  folding  lids  and  putting  lids  on  boxes  and  putting  shoes  in  cases. 

Q.  Have  you  been  on  the  piece  system  or  on  a salary?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  on  a salary. 

Q.  How  much  have  they  been  paying  you  a week?  A.  Four  dollars 
and  a half. 

Q.  Who  was  your  foreman?  A.  Mr.  Alexander. 

Q.  Did  he  treat  you  nicely?  A.  He  treated  me  all  right. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  him  swear  at  any  of  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  positive  you  have  heard  him  swear  at  them?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  heard  him  swear  at  the  girls?  A. 
Oh,  quite  often. 

Q.  You  have  heard  him  use  profanity?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  him  put  his  hands  on  any  of  these  girls  to  shake 
them?  A.  Oh,  I have  seen  him  shake  some. 

Q.  You  have  seen  him  shake  some  of  the  girls?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  still  working  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Brennan. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all. 

(Cat  calls,  whistling  and  uproar.) 

Viola  Patters’  Testimony. 

VIOLA  PATTERS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  May  I have  a word?  I don’t  desire  anything 
only  to  state  the  position  that  we  occupy  down  here  in  Springfield. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Miss  Viola  Patters 

(Whistling,  cat  calls  and  uproar.) 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please — ^just  a word. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name? 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please,  may  we  not  have  a 
word? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Viola  Patters. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  Is  this  a public  meeting  in  the  interests  of  the 
State  of  Illinois. 

(Cat  calls,  whistling  and  uproar.) 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Viola  Patters. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  Where  are  you  working  now?  A.  In  the  box  factory. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  May  we  have  a word,  if  the  Committee  please? 
If  the  Committee  please,  the  citizens  of  Springfield  desire  to  be  heard  in 
this  matLer. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  shoe 
factory. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  If  the  Committee  please,  we  trust  that  the 
citizenship  of  this  city  can  be  heard  through  their  authorized  representa- 
tives in  this  hearing. 

SENATOR  BEALL  (to  the  Chairman):  Go  right  ahead. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


635 


MR.  FITZGERALD:  We  think  it  is  only  right  and  fair  that  we 
should  be  heard. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  are  working  at  the  International  Shoe 
Factory,  are  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  working  there?  A.  A year. 

Q.  How  long?  A.  A 3'ear. 

Q.  Are  you  working  on  the  piece  system  or  working  on  a weekly 
salary?  A.  On  a weekly  salary. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  paid?  A.  Six  dollars. 

Q.  In  whose  department  do  you  work?  A.  Mr.  Alexander’s,  in  the 
box  factory. 

Q.  Does  he  treat  you  right?  A.  He  has  “cussed.” 

Q.  He  has  “cussed”  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  different  times  has  he  “cussed”  you?  A.  Twice. 

Q.  Has  he  used  profane  words  to  you?  A.  Not  lately. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  put  his  hands  upon  you  to  shake  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  he  has  cursed  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  him  shake  any  of  the  other  girls?  A.  No, 
sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Viola  Patters. 

Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  1048  North  Fourteenth  Street. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  That  is  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Call  Miss  Balter,  Sergeant. 

Margaret  Balter’s  Testimony. 

MARGARET  BALTER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Balter. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1426  East  Randolph  Street. 

Q.  You  live  with  your  parents,  do  you?  A.  I live  with  my  father. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work.  Miss  Balter?  A.  At  the  box  factory  and 
the  shoe  department. 

Q.  Of  the  International  Shoe  Factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  About  three 
months. 

Q.  You  are  still  employed  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  a weekly  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  paid?  A.  Four  dollars. 

Q.  Four  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  you  work  a day?  A.  Ten  hours  a day. 

Q.  And  the  same  number  of  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  Well,  that  is 
nine  hours,  from  7 to  4:45  o’clock  on  Saturday. 

Q.  In  whose  department  do  you  work?  A.  Mr.  Alexander’s. 

Q.  Mr.  Alexander’s  department?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  treat  you  nicely?  A.  He  “cussed”  me  all  the  time  and 
shook  me  around  and  threw  shoes  at  me,  threw  cases  at  me  and  every- 
thing. 

Q.  Throws  shoes  and  cases  at  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  swears  at  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Does  he  do  that  to  the  other  girls,  too?  A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  But  he  does  it  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  that  is  all. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  How  old  are  you?  A.  Sixteen. 

Ella  Ehlert’s  Testimony. 

ELLA  EHLERT,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 


636 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows; 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name? 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  Now,  if  the  Committee  please 

(Yells  and  uproar,  whistling  and  cat  calls.) 

MR.  MORTIMER:  We  do  not  want  to  cause  any  disturbance  in 
this  meeting. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  want  to  do,  my  friends;  you 
know  what  we  are  here  for.  We  are  here  for  the  purpose  of  taking  the 
testimony  of  these  working  girls,  and  hearing  what  they  have  to  say. 
This  is  not  a trial. 

(Yells,  uproar  and  whistling  and  cat  calls.) 

SENATOR  BEALL  (continuing):  That  is  all  we  want.  They  are 
going  to  be  heard,  and  I wish  you  would  listen  to  them.  Listen  to  them; 
we  would  be  glad  to  have  you. 

MR.  MORTIMER:  We  would  like  to  be  heard. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  What  is  the  ruling  on  this  proposition?  We 
would  like  to  be  heard  in  this  matter.  What  is  the  ruling  of  the  Com- 
mittee on  it? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  will  set  any  night  for  j^ou  if  you  want  to  be 
heard,  and  will  come  here  and  hear  you  at  length,  but  tonight  we  are  here 
to  take  the  testimony  of  these  people  who  have  been  called  here,  and  j'ou 
should  not  interrupt  us. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  This  is  the  time  we  desire  to  be  heard. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Ella  Ehlert. 

MR.  MORTIMER:  What  is  your  ruling? 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  here  to  work:  not  for  the  purpose 
of  any  public  discussion. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  All  right,  so  are  we,  and  we  are  going  to  stay 
until  we  can  be  heard. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  All  right,  then,  stay,  but  let  us  proceed. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  Then  you  will  not  hear  us? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  No,  we  will  not. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1426  South  Tenth 
Street. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  shoe  factor3^ 

Q.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company’s  factor^'?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  whose  department  do  you  work;  who  is  j’our  foreman?  A. 
Mr.  Huntington. 

Q.  In  what  department  is  that?  A.  Packing  department. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  paid  a week?  A.  Well,  I am  on  piece  work 
now. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  Just  about  three 
months. 

Q.  You  have  been  working  there  three  months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  started  there  how  much  were  jou  paid?  A.  How 
much  ? 

Q.  Were  you  paid  a wage  there?  A.  I was  there  three  days,  Tues- 
day until  Saturday,  and  then  I got  $2.00;  they  kept  a couple  of  days  back; 
they  kept  three  days  back. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  getting  a week?  A.  He  started  me  in,  and 
he  says,  “I  will  put  you  on  day  work;  I will  give  you  $3.50,”  and  then  he 
raised  me  to  piece  work,  and  last  week  I got  $6.82. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  start  at?  A.  Three  dollars  and  a half. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  did  you  sa3'  your  name  was?  A.  Ella 
Ehlert. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  many  hours  a da3-  do  you  work?  A. 
Ten  hours. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


637 


Q.  And  the  same  number  of  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No,  to  4:45 
o’clock  on  Saturday. 

Q.  And  that  makes  how  many  hours  per  week?  A.  Fifty-nine 
hours. 

Q.  Are  you  treated  nicely  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  conditions  are  satisfactory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  complaints  to  make?  A.  No. 

Della  Morris’  Testimony. 

DELLA  MORRIS,  a witness  called  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Della  Morris. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  shoe  factory. 

Q.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company’s  factory?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  worked  there?  A.  About  seven  months. 

Q.  Are  you  on  piece  work  or  salary?  A.  By  the  week. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get  a week?  A.  Eight  dollars. 

Q.  On  a salary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  at  first?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  Now  you  get  $8.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  you  work  a day?  A.  Ten  hours. 

Q.  Are  the  conditions  there  pleasant?  A.  Well,  as  far  as  my  boss 
is  concerned,  he  is  a fine  gentleman. 

Q.  Who  is  your  boss?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  You  have  no  complaints  to  make  against  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  complaints  made  against  any  of  the  other 
bosses  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Against  what  boss?  A.  Well,  Wallace  was  one. 

Q.  What  have  you  heard?  A.  I have  heard  girls  talking  about  his 
shaking  them,  but  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Do  the  girls  there  seem  to  be  well  content,  or  do  they  complain 
of  their  treatment  there  generally?  A.  I don’t  know;  I don’t  associate 
any  with  them. 

Q.  You  are  entirely  dependent  upon  your  own  earnings  for  your 
support,  are  you?  A.  I was  most  of  the  time. 

Q.  Could  you  tell  the  Committee  about  what  it  costs  a girl  to  support 
herself  in  Springfield?  A.  If  she  wants  to  live  right,  she  cannot  live 
right  for  what  I am  making  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  was  a fair  wage  for  girls?  A.  I don’t 
know;  I had  myself  and  child  to  support  when  I was  getting  only  $5.00  a 
week. 

Q.  And  you  supported  yourself  and  child?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  that  a hard  task?  A.  Yes,  it  was  almost  impossible. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there  before  you  got  more  money?  A. 

Four  weeks. 

Q.  Then  they  raised  you  how  much?  A.  To  $6.00. 

Q.  How  long  before  you  got  another  raise?  A.  Four  weeks,  the 

next  month. 

Q.  What  prospects  have  you  of  making  more  money?  A.  I could 
not  say. 

Q.  Do  some  of  the  girls  get  more  money  than  you  do?  A.  Yes,  I 
have  heard  of  them  getting  more. 

Q.  You  would  say  that  a girl  in  Springfield  could  not  live  very 
decently  on  $8.00  a week?  A.  She  might  if  she  had  no  one  but  herself; 
you  see,  I have  two  to  support;  she  might  do  all  right. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  think  they  can  live  on  $8.00  a week  and 
live  nicely?  A.  Yes,  but  they  couldn’t  do  much  on  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  think  that  this  Committee  is  doing 


538 


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you  an  injustice  by  asking  you  to  come  here?  A.  It  is  not;  they  are  do- 
ng all  right. 

Q.  Do  you  regard  the  work  that  this  Committee  is  doing  as  more  o: 
an  injury  to  the  working  girls  than  a service?  A.  I think  they  are  doing 
us  a service. 

Q.  Is  that  the  way  that  the  working  women  are  looking  upon  it?  A 
Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all.  Thank  you. 

Hadia  Fromm’s  Testimony. 

HADIA  FROMM,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  beine 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows' 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  Hadia  Fromm. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Fifteen. 

Q.  Are  you  living  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  I don’t  w'ork  anywhere  now. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  work  any  place?  A.  Yes,  I worked  at  the  box 
factory. 

Q.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company’s  factory?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  did  you  work  there?  A.  I started  Fair  Week. 

Q.  What  were  you  employed  to  do  there?  A.  Pasting  on  lids. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  go  to  -work  in  the  morning?  A.  Seven  in 
the  morning. 

O.  What  time  did  you  quit  in  the  evening?  A.  A quarter  to  six. 

O-  How  much  did  they  pay  you  for  that?  A.  When  I started  I 
got  $3.50. 

Q.  You  got  $3.50  to  start  with?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  you  quit  how  much  were  you  getting?  A.  Four  and  a 

half. 

Q.  In  whose  department  were  you  employed?  A.  Bill  Johnson’s. 

Q.  Did  he  treat  you  nicely?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  do?  A.  He  grabbed  me  bj-  the  arm  and  told  me  to 
go  to  work,  and  he  used  to  “cuss.” 

Q.  Did  he  do  this  often?  A.  Well,  not  so  very  often,  but  he  did  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  That  is  all.  Thank  you. 

Emma  Malinski’s  Testimony. 

EMMA  MALINSKI,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  0’HA.RA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Emma  Malinski. 

Q,  How  old  are  you?  A.  Seventeen, 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  924  North  Thirteenth  Street. 

Q.  With  your  father  and  mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  Shoe  factory. 

Q.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company’s  factory?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  It  will  be  two 
months  now. 

Q.  What  do  you  do?  A.  Bind  the  shoes. 

Q.  How  much  a week  are  they  paying  you?  A.  When  I started  I 
didn’t  have  piece  work;  they  gave  me  $4.50;  then  he  just  gave  me  that  for 
one  week,  and  then  he  put  me  on  piece  work,  and  then  I got  $6.50  and 
$7.00,  and  then  for  three  months  I made  $8.00,  and  that  is  the  highest  I 
ever  made. 

Q.  Working  ten  hours  a day?  A.  Working  from  7 to  12  o’clock 
and  from  12:15  to  6 o’clock. 

Q.  In  whose  department  are  you?  A.  Air.  Hollis’. 

Q.  Does  he  treat  you  nicely?  A.  He  treated  me  very  well,  but  I 
seen’him  give  it  to  the  rest  of  them.  When  he  gets  excited  he  treats  them 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


639 


awful;  he  just  hollers  at  them,  and  several  times  I seen  him  push  them 
back  and  forth. 

Q.  You  saw  that,  did  you?  A.  Yes,  I seen  that  twice. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  What  kind  of  piece  work  are  you  doing?  A. 
Barring  shoes. 

Q.  What  is  that?  A.  You  see,  they  are  all  done  except  at  the  last  I 
give  them  a stitching  right  down  by  the  buttons  so  they  won’t  rip;  I bar 
them. 

Q.  That  is  called  barring?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  is  that  paid  for?  A.  For  a line  of  shoes  I get  4 cents,  for 
another  line  3 cents;  thirty-six  pairs,  3 cents. 

Q.  You  get  4 cents  for  thirty-six  pairs?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  get  4 cents  for  one  kind  and  3 cents  for  another  for  seventy- 
two  shoes?  A.  Yes,  sir;  3 cents. 

Q.  Three  cents  for  seventy-two  shoes?  A.  Three  cents  for  seventy- 
two  shoes. 

Q.  And  4 cents  for  seventy-two  shoes  of  another  kind?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  is  there  any  fine  or  loss  of  wages  for  any  accidents  to  your 
work?  A.  Whenever  you  make  a mistake  you  have  to  take  them  back 
and  fix  them  over. 

Q.  You  are  not  fined?  A.  Of  course,  the  other  girls,  I have  heard 
it  said,  he  made  them  pay,  but  this  is  for  shoes  whenever  they  are  damaged, 
you  know. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I think  that  is  all. 

(Applause,  whistling,  uproar.) 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Kindly  refrain  from  clapping.  This  is  not  a 
vaudeville,  this  is  not  a theatre. 

(Uproar  continued,  whistling  and  jeers.) 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  will  simply  compel  this  Committee,  gentle- 
men, to  hold  our  hearings  in  another  city  and  bring  our  witnesses  from  this 
town  to  that  other  city.  Now,  this  Committee  is  here  because  it  has  a 
work  to  perform  and  because  it  is  ordered  to  perform  that  work  by  the 
State  of  Illinois,  and  it  is  going  to  perform  that  work  whether  you  like  it 
or  not.  This  Committee  ought  to  be  permitted  to  transact  its  business  in 
quiet,  and  you  ought  to  be  the  first  ones  to  aid  in  keeping  order  and  not 
interfere  with  this  Committee  in  any  way,  shape  or  manner  while  we  are 
calling  our  witnesses.  You  will  simply  compel  us  to  take  them  to  some 
other  town  to  be  heard  if  you  persist  in  this. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  May  we  have  a word? 

SENATOR  JL^UL:  No,  sir;  not  while  we  are  examining  these 
witnesses. 

(Yells,  jeers,  whistling,  clapping  of  hands  and  uproar.) 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  May  we  not  be  heard? 

SENATOR  JLTUL:  Let  us  go  ahead  with  our  work. 

MR.  MORTIMER:  If  the  Committee  please,  may  we  not  have  a 
moment  in  order  for  Mr.  Fitzgerald  and  myself  to  appeal  to  this  Com- 
mittee for  an  opportunity  to  say  a word  in  behalf  of  the  citizenship  of 
Springfield  who  desires  to  be  heard? 

SENATOR  JLTLTL:  When  we  want  you  we  will  tell  you;  you  will 
kindly  take  your  seat.  We  intend  to  give  a hearing  to  these  working 
girls  whether  some  people  like  it  or  not.  This  time  these  girls  come  first. 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  Mr.  Chairman 

SENATOR  JUUL:  I move  that  this  meeting  be  adjourned  if  this 
meeting  cannot  be  held  in  peace  without  being  broken  up  by  rowdies 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  the  gentleman  take  his  seat? 

MR.  FITZGERALD:  I want  to  address  this  Committee. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Dr.  Quale,  will  you  please  see  that  the 
gentlemen  are  seated? 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


(At  this  point  Mr.  Fitzgerald  and  Mr.  Mortimer  were  escorted  from 
the  hall  by  the  officers.) 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Is  there  any  fine  for  damages?  A.  Yes,  when- 
ever they  are  damaged  or  anything  like  that  they  make  you  pay  $2.00  for 
the  shoe. 

Q.  When  they  are  damaged  they  make  you  pay  $2.00  for  the  shoe? 
A.  Yes;  not  me,  but  the  rest  of  them. 

Q.  Why  not  for  you?  A.  If  I make  a mistake  I have  got  to  do  it 
over,  fix  it  up. 

Q.  But  if  the  others  damage  shoes  they  have  got  to  pay  for  it?  A. 

Yes. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  She  states  that  if  a shoe  is  damaged  in  certain 
cases  they  have  to  pay  as  high  as  $2.00  for  it. 

Regina  Tacoma’s  Testimony. 

REGINA  TACOMA,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Regina  Tacoma. 
Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  I am  seventeen. 

Q.  You  are  living  with  your  parents?  A.  Y’es. 

Q.  At  what  place?  A.  1503  South  Passavant. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company. 
Q.  What  do  you  do  there?  A.  Repair  tan  shoes. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  a weekly  wage?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  paid  a week?  A.  He  just  raised  me  this 
week  to  $6.00. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  up  to  this  week?  A.  Five;  when  I started  I 
got  $4.50. 

Q.  When  did  you  start?  A.  About  four  months  ago  on  a Monday 
afternoon. 

Q.  In  whose  department  are  you  employed?  A.  In  Air.  Hunting- 
ton’s. 

Q.  Did  he  treat  jmu  nicely?  A.  I haven’t  anything  against  him  be- 
cause I haven’t  been  there  long  enough;  he  alwa3's  treated  me  well. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  him  swear  at  anj'  of  the  other  girls?  .Y. 
No,  I never  heard  it. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  him  put  a hand  on  them  and  shake  them?  A. 

No. 

Q.  Haven’t  seen  him  do  anything  out  of  the  way-  or  harsh?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Huntington,  you  think,  is  a courteous  gentleman?  A.  As  far 
as  I know  he  is. 

Q.  You  have  heard  no  complaints  against  him  of  an3-  sort?  A.  No, 

sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  complaints  against  the  foreman  of  an3-  other  de- 
partment^ A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  foreman?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  What  complaints  have  you  heard  against  him?  A.  I have  heard 
that  he  will  bawl  them  out  and  holler  at  them. 

Q.  He  is  harsh  with  them?  A.  Y"es. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  any'  complaints  against  an3'  of  the  other  fore- 
men? A.  No,  sir;  I haven’t. 

Q.  You  are  working  on  a salar3U  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  a weekly  wage?  A.  Y'es,  sir. 

Q.  No  piece  work?  A.  No  piece  work;  no,  sir. 

Della  Morris’  Testimony. 

DELLA  AIORRIS,  recalled,  and  testified  as  follows: 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


641 


I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  were  sworn?  A.  Yes. 
t Q.  And  testified?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  What  else  did  you  wish  to  tell  us?  A.  I didn’t  want  to  tell  it. 

- Q.  What  is  it?  A.  About  my  getting  poisoned  out  there  by  the  little 

labels  that  is  put  on  shoes;  instead  of  having  a sponge  to  wet  those  with  I 
had  put  them  in  my  mouth;  I should  not  have  done  it;  I did,  but  I didn’t 
think  of  being  poisoned;  and  I was  poisoned  by  them. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  didn’t  have  a sponge?  A.  No,  sir. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  They  didn’t  furnish  a sponge  for  you  and  you 
1 had  to  put  them  in  your  mouth?  A.  I did. 

Q.  Did  everybody  else  in  your  department  do  the  same  thing?  A.  I 
-don’t  know  as  to  that. 

Q.  No  one  had  any  sponges?  A.  No,  no  one  that  I seen. 

Q.  And  you  were  poisoned  as  the  result  of  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  to  go  to  bed?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I was  in  bed  for  two 

. weeks. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  your  doctor?  A.  Dr.  Meyer. 

) Q.  What  was  his  first  name?  A.  J.  D.  Meyer. 

Q.  He  treated  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

C J Q.  He  told  you  that  you  were  poisoned  in  that  manner?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  You  yere  poisoned  as  the  result  of  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

; Q.  Did  the  company  pay  you  for  those  two  weeks?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Did  you  pay  your  own  doctor  bill?  A.  I paid 
!-  my  doctor  bill  myself. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  was  that  bill?  A.  I am  paying  it  now 
*!on  weekly  installments. 

' SENATOR  JUUL:  You  are  paying  it  on  the  installment  plan?  A. 

: Yes;  I haven’t  quit  doctoring  since  I was  poisoned  in  January. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Did  it  poison  your  blood?  A.  Yes,  the 
■ '•  -doctor  said  it’s  all  through  my  system. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  it?  A.  I don’t  know;  it  is  just  in  the  mouth, 
sores  in  the  mouth. 

; Q.  How  much  have  you  paid  the  doctor?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you  that, 
f Ijbecause  I paid  him  a dollar  every  time,  that’s  all  I can  do. 

- CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  you  represent  to  anybody  at  the  factory 
' why  you  were  sick?  A.  Oh,  yes,  my  boss  knew  it  at  the  time. 

I Q.  Your  boss  knew  that  you  had  been  poisoned  there?  A.  Yes,  he 
'V  Iknew'that  I got  my  sore  mouth  there;  he  advised  me  to  go  to  a physician. 
SENATOR  WOODARD:  The  sores  were  where?  A.  In  the  mouth. 

I Q.  How  long  before  the  first  sore  came?  A.  I don’t  know,  it  was 
isorne  time  in  January;  I went  to  a doctor  and  treated  them;  they  would 
i I50  away  and  then  come  back  again  in  about  two  weeks. 

) i CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  Mrs.  Morris;  thank  you. 

C Mary  Casper’s  Testimony. 

MARY  CASPER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
/ July  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

) ! CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mary  Casper. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Sixteen, 
j Q.  You  live  with  your  parents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  What  is  your  address?  A.  2021  North  17th. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company 
: factory. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  Two  months. 

! Q.  How  much  have  you  paid  the  doctor?  A.  I couldn’t  tell  you  that, 
tivhy  you  were  sick?  A.  Oh,  yes,  my  boss  knew  it  at  the  time. 


I 


642  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  JUUL. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Do  you  work  on  a salary  or  do  3’ou  work  at  piece- 
vyork?  A.  On  a salary. 

Q.  What  do  you  get  a week?  A.  $4.00. 

Q.  Do  you  alwajrs  get  $4.00?  A.  Not  always,  no.  I sometimes  get 
$3.67,  sometimes  $3.87. 

Q.  How  is  it  that  when  j'ou  are  working  on  a salary  that  j'ou  don’t 
receive  the  same  amount  of  money  each  week?  A.  Sometimes  in  the 
afternoon  we  work  onh"  two  hours  and  then  go  home. 

Q.  Then  your  pay  averages  about  $3.67  a week,  does  it?  A.  Yes,  it 
averages  about  that. 

Q.  Speak  up,  there  won’t  anybody  hurt  \'Ou;  we  are  not  as  bad  as  we 
look.  A.  It  depends  on  how  much  y'ou  work. 

Q.  But  try  and  tell  me;  for  instance  last  week,  what  did  3'ou  get  last 
week?  A.  I got  $3.73. 

Q.  And  what  was  the  week  before?  A.  $3.75. 

Q.  The  week  before  that?  A.  $3.87. 

Q.  So  it  averages  just  a few  cents  below  $4.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  for  that  $4.00,  or  for  that  $3.67,  3^ou  work  from  what  hour  in 
the  morning?  A.  From  7. 

Q.  Until  noon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  every  day  from  ]Monda3'  morning  you  go  to  work  at  7 o’clock, 
is  that  right?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  you  work  until  12?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  you  have  how  long  a time  for  lunch?  A.  Three-quarters 

of  an  hour. 

Q.  And  then  3'ou  go  to  work  again  at  a quarter  to  1 o’clock?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  And  then  you  work  up  to  tvhat  hour?  A.  A quarter  to  6. 

Q.  And  for  that  vou  receive  this  $3.67,  and  sometimes  almost  $4.00? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  you  fairh-  well  skilled  in  doing  the  work  that  3'Ou  are  doing? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  work?  A.  I button,  tie  and  trim. 

Q.  Can  you  do  that  as  well  as  an3'  other  girl;  do  3'Ou  know  how  to  do 

it?  A.  I know  how  to  do  it. 

Q.  You  do  it  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  work  is  put  awa3'  the  wa3'  3'ou  have  done  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  anything  taken  out  of  3'our  salar3'  when  3-ou  spoil  a shoe;  have 
you  have  any  deduction  so  far?  A.  No,  I don’t  have  an3L 

Q.  How  do  they  treat  3'ou?  A.  The3r  treat  me  all  right,  but  they 
don’t  others. 

Q.  The3'  don’t  treat  ever3Tod3'  right?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  do  3'ou  know  about  the  treatment  that  other  girls  have  re- 
ceived? A.  1 can’t  tell  3'ou,  but  I hear  them  holler  at  them. 

Q.  You  hear  them  holler?  A.  I hear  him  holler  at  them. 

Q.  Who  is  the  man  that  hollers  at  them?  A.  kir.  Hollis. 

Q.  What  does  he  holler  about?  A.  Well,  he  hollers  if  she  don’t  do 
the  work  right. 

Q.  He  talks  prett3'  loud?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Shakes  them  up,  does  he?  A.  \ es. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  that.  A.  Yes,  I have  seen  that. 

Q.  How  man3'  times  have  3‘ou  seen  that?  A.  I don’t  know;  a good 
main'  times. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  it  twice?  A.  . I don’t  know  how  many  times. 

Q.  More  than  five  times?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


643 


SENATOR  JUUL:  Well,  1 guess  that  is  all. 

Marie  Troth’s  Testimony. 

MARIE  TROTH,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  3'our  name?  A.  Marie  Troth. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Nineteen. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  2029  North  Leavitt  street. 

Q.  Where  do  you  work?  A.  At  the  meter  company,  but  1 did  work 
at  the  shoe  company. 

Q.  At  the  International  Shoe  Company’s  factory?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there?  A.  It  has  just  been  a while;  1 
quit  there  in  February  and  I went  to  the  meter  company. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there  at  the  shoe  factory?  A.  Since 
August,  but  I had  been  there  before  that,  from  February^  until  May,  but  I 
took  sick  and  left. 

Q.  When  you  were  working  at  the  International  Shoe  Company  what 
department  were  you  in?  A.  In  the  room  under  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work  there?  A.  From  7 o’clock  until  6 at 
III  night. 

Q.  How  many  hours  a week?  A.  The  foreman  I went  under,  he 
started  me  on  $5.00  a week,  and  then  I quit  work,  I took  sick,  and  then 
when  Mr.  Hollis  came  he  put  me  on  piece  work,  and  then  after  that  I never 
made  anything;  never  made  $5.00,  hardly  ever. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  After  you  were  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  I re- 
member once  making  $6.00;  I made  $6.17. 

Q.  That  is  the  highest  you  reached?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  lowest?  A.  $2.99  just  the  week  I quit,  the  last  pay 
I drew. 

Q.  Was  this  a full  week’s  -work?  A.  Yes,  sir,  $2.99,  I think  it  was  a 
. full  week’s  work. 

Q.  What  did  you  have  to  do?  A.  I folded  on  the  folding  table. 

Q.  What  did  that  consist  of?  A.  They  put  cement  on  the  shoes  and 
then  we  fold  the  edges  of  it. 

Q.  What  do  you  get  for  each  shoe?  A.  For  Bluchers  we  got  four 
and  a half  cents  for  finishing. 

Q.  For  finishing  how  many?  A.  Sevent}^-two. 

Q.  You  got  four  cents  for  finishing  seventy-two  shoes?  A.  Four 
and  a half  cents,  yes,  sir,  after  the  noses  were  did  on  the  machine. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  We  onh^  got  four  and  a half  for  boxings,  and  they  were 
hard  to  do.  He  made  me  do  tips  and  he  would  only  just  O.  K.  my  card  for 
it;  whenever  he  would  bring  those  tips  to  me  I would  have  to  do  them.  I 
was  folding  so  that  they  could  be  stitched. 

Q.  They  paid  j'ou  how  much  per  seventy^-two  items?  A.  There  were 
seventy-two  in  one  case,  and  I did  three  cases  for  ten  cents;  he  gave  me  ten 
cents. 

Q.  That  is,  there  were  seventy-two  shoe  tips  in  each  case,  is  that  cor- 
rect? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  had  to  make  three  cases  for  the  sum  of  ten  cents?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  remember  all  the  time  that  you  are  sworn?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and 
he  said  that  this  was  to  be  done  in  an  hour,  to  make  ten  cents  an  hour,  and 
I did  this  in  an  hour. 

Q.  Could  \'ou  do  it?  A.  No,  I could  not  alway^s  do  it  in  an  hour, 
because  lots  of  times  I would  have  to  lay  them  out  to  dry. 

Q.  But  if  you  could  have  done  it  in  an  hour,  you  could  have  made  at 
. that  time,  by  working  ten  hours  a day,  a dollar  a day?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I 
never  have  that  to  do  steady^ 

Q.  Then  you  left  there?  A.  I quit  there  on  a Thursday  night  and 


644  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

went  right  away  and  commenced  at  the  other  place,  to  the  meter  company. 

Q.  Was  that  a better  place?  A.  Yes,  I liked  it  much  better;  it  was 
a whole  lot  better. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  complain  of  your  treatment  at  the  shoe  factor3'?  A. 
Mr.  Hollis,  I told  him  several  times,  twice  that  I remember  well  of ; I went 
to  him,  never  to  the  other  girls,  but  I went  direct  to  Mr.  Hollis  and  told 
him  that  we  were  not  getting  enough  pay,  that  we  couldn’t  make  anything 
by  it,  and  I told  him  how  much  we  were  making. 

Q.  That  was  the  foreman  of  the  shop,  was  it?  A.  Yes,  of  my  de- 
partment. 

Q.  Did  you  believe  that  the  foreman  had  the  power  to  give  you  any 
more?  A.  He  would  have,  I guess. 

Q.  What  I am  trying  to  find  out  bj'  you  is  if  you  know  whether  that 
foreman  possessed  the  power  to  do  any  better  for  you?  A.  Why,  3'es,  he 
could  have,  he  could  have  did  better  by  us. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  he  swear  at  any  of  the  girls?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I remember  well  of  him  swearing  at  a girl  that  worked  next  to  me  on 
account  of  the  work  she  didn’t  do  right. 

Q.  Used  profane  words?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  shake  any  of  the  girls?  A.  Yes,  one  little  girl,  I saw 
him  shake  her. 

Q.  You  saw  him  shake  her?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  grabbed  hold  of  her  and 
pulled  her  around  the  table,  pulled  her  over  the  cement  box  and  pushed  her 
over  against  it  and  against  the  end  of  the  table  and  told  her  to  get  over,  to 
get  over  there  and  do  some  work  that  the  forelady  told  her  to  do. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  he  pull  her  over?  A.  He  pulled  her  over  in 
such  a menner  that  she  pulled  the  table  and  the  box  over. 

Q.  You  saw  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Who  was  that  foreman?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  About  what  time  did  that  happen,  3vhat  3vas  the  exact  date  if  you 
remember?  A.  I can’t  remember. 

Q.  Was  it  near  Christmas?  A.  It  must  have  been;  it  was  just  about 
Christmas  or  in  Januar3',  in  December  or  Januar3'. 

Q.  In  December  or  Januar30  A.  Yes,  sir,  because  I know  she  was 
not  working  there  ver3f  long;  it  was  just  a little  while  before  I quit. 

Q.  Was  that  the  little  fifteen-year-old  girl?  A.  Her  name  is  Jennie; 
I can’t  think  of  the  other  name. 

Q.  You  are  now  giving  the  name  of  the  girl  who  tripped  over  the 
cement  box?  Jennie  is  the  first  name,  I can’t  remember  the  other  name. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  her  last  name?  A.  No,  she  is  sitting  right  out  in 
front  of  me, 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Has  she  testified  before  this  Committee?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  3'ou  think  about  the  justice  of  asking  \'ou  to  come  before 
this  Committee  to  testify?  A.  Well,  I think  it  is  all  right,  because  the  girls 
at  the  shoe  factory,  I think  it  is  ridiculous  the  way  Mr.  Hollis  treats  some 
of  the  girls.  I don’t  think  an3'one  would  realize  it  unless  they  could  see  it. 

Q.  This  is  the  first  time  that  these  girls  who  were  treated  in  that  way 
have  had  an  opportunitv'  to  be  heard  b3’'  a public  bod3^?  A.  Yes,  sir,  this 
is  the  first  time.  I know  that  I have  often  said  that  I would  go  and  tell  my 
ma  about  it,  tell  her  the  wa3'  he  treated  us  girls.  I don’t  know  whether  it 
is  my  business  to  say  so  here  now,  but  the  .girls  that  are  picked  out  are  the 
girls  that  make  good  wages;  the  others  are  not  here  at  all,  the  girls  that  I 
am  speaking  of.  I read  in  the  News,  I read  a piece  where  the  girls  spoke 
about  it.  Those  girls  are  girls  that  get  hi.gher  wages  than  the  other  girls 
around  the  machines. 

Q.  Then  you  mean  that  when  the  reporter  went  around  for  the  paper, 
went  down  to  the  factory,  they  picked  out  the  girls  that  were  getting  hi,gher 
pay,  and  those  were  the  only  girls  that  were  interviewed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  How  did  you  find  that  out?  A.  That  is  from 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


64S 


$1 1 the  girls.  Of  course  I was  there,  I worked  there  long  enough  to  know  which 
(f|  girls  got  the  best  pay. 

'•I  , Q-  You  know  what  they  were  being  paid,  and  you  know  they  were  the 

j I highest  paid  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  they  were  interviewed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

:|i  SENATOR  JUUL:  That  is  all. 

■I  Jennie  Holtzman’s  Testimony. 

• i JENNIE  HOLTZMAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
f*::  first  duly  sworn,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Jennie  Holtzman. 
SENATOR  JUUL:  Where  are  you  employed?  A.  I was  working 
tj  _ for  Mr.  Hollis. 

!■  Q.  In  the  shoe  factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  factory,  is  it  the  factory  that  these  other  young  ladies 
.•*  jj  were  working  at?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

jl  Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  I was  working  about 
-I ! three  or  four  months. 

j’  Q.  Are  you  working  there  now?  A.  Yes,  sir,  downstairs. 

! Q.  In  what  department?  A.  In  the  button  department. 

-1 . Q.  How  are  you  paid,  by  the  piece  or  by  the  week?  A.  By  the 

. week’s  work. 

‘ Q.  And  that  yields  you  how  much  a week  about?  A.  $4.50. 

Q.  How  much  did  it  yield  you  when  you  started.  A $4.50. 

; Q.  You  started  on  a salary  or  on  a commission?  A.  On  a salary. 

I'  Q.  And  you  still  have  a salary?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  told  me  he  would 

■i  ■ give  me  a raise,  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  That  he  would  give  me  a raise,  when  I started  in,  and 
■ii  right  after  a week,  that’s  what  he  promised  me. 

I Q.  When  did  you  get  the  raise?  A.  I didn’t  get  it  yet,  that’s  why 

■ ; ' I stopped. 

I!  Q.  You  did  stop?  A.  Yes,  because  he  wouldn’t  give  me  the  raise. 

Q.  When  did  you  stop?  A.  I am  working  a month  downstairs. 

■ Q.  You  got  away  from  Mr.  Hollis  and  went  downstairs?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Who  is  your  foreman  norv?  A.  Mr.  Huntington. 

! Q.  Mr.  Hollis  was  your  foreman?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Why. did  you  leave  him?  A.  Because  he  wouldn’t  give  me  a raise. 

. : They  took  me  off  the  machine  and  put  me  on  some  dirty  work. 

I Q.  What  do  you  call  dirty  work?  A.  It  was  cementing,  and  he 
■■  il  would  not  pay  enough,  and  I had  to  stand  all  day  on  my  feet.  Four  dollars 
! and  a half  a week,  I could  not  afford  to  work  at  that  price,  and  I thought 
,■  that  they  would  give  me  more  downstairs. 

Q.  Did  you  get  more  dowmstairs?  A.  No,  sir,  I got  four  and  a half. 
Q.  Did  you  have  any  trouble  with  the  foreman?  A.  Upstairs  I did. 

Q.  What  was  the  trouble,  tell  it  in  your  way  and  how  it  happened.  A. 
I When  I went  and  asked  them  for  work  I did  not  want  to  stand  around 
t because  I was  not  fit  for  it.  I asked  for  work  and  Mr.  Hollis  come  around 
and  the  forelady  was  cranky  and  didn’t  know  what  to  give  us,  and  she  let 
, ■ us  stand  around  there,  and  I went  to  ask  Mr.  Hollis  and  he  told  me  there 
was  plenty  of  work,  and  he  asked  the  forelady,  and  she  said  to  him,  “Why, 
•4  there  is  plenty  of  rvork,”  and  there  was  no  work  at  all. 

ji  ,Q.  And  then  what  happened?  A.  He  took  me  by  my  arm  and  he 
ttf  turned  me  around  and  my  head  got  kind  of  turned,  you  know,  and  I didn’t 
know  where  I w^as  at. 

Q.  Spun  you  around  quick?  A.  Yes,  and  the  girls  all  saw  it,  they 


told  me  that  I was  a fool  for  taking  that,  but  I could  not  say  nothing. 

Q.  They  said  you  were  a fool  for  taking  it?  A.  Yes,  I could  not  see 


045 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


nothing,  he  turned  me  around  so  quick.  When  anj^body  strikes  me  in  the 
head  I get  so  dizzy. 

Q.  He  didn’t  hit  you  in  the  head?  A.  No,  he  turned  me  around, 
pinched  me  by  the  arm  and  threw  the  shoes. 

Q.  Threw  the  shoes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  shoes?  A.  The  foreman. 

Q.  The  shoes  that  you  were  holding?  A.  Yes,  he  says,  “There  is 
the  shoes.” 

Q.  Were  you  up  against  any  cement  trough  up  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  just  spun  you  around?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  spun  me  around  after 
I told  him  I didn’t  have  no  work,  and  I didn’t  have  anjn 

Q.  Did  you  quit  immediately  after  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  went  downstairs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  I will  be  sixteen. 

Q.  Where  is  your  address?  A.  101  East  Reynolds  street. 

Q.  Is  there  any  fine  for  spoiling  any  work  over  there?  A.  No,  sir,  I 
never  had  no  fine. 

Q.  You  are  working  by  the  day  anywa3A  A.  Yes,  sir,  1 was  working 
by  the  day,  but  after  that  he  gave  me  piece  work. 

Q.  This  four  and  a half  that  you  got,  is  that  for  five  or  si.x  days’  tvork? 
A.  Six  days’  work,  the  whole  week. 

Q.  It  was  Mr.  Hollis  that  spun  3'ou  around?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  friendlj'  with  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  anyone  ever  tell  you  that  j'ou  should  not  come  to  testifj'?  A. 
No,  they  didn’t  know  anything  about  it.  I told  the  girls  I was  to  come  and 
they  said  for  me  to  come  and  tell  all  1 knew  about  it. 

Lucille  Flynn’s  Testimony. 

LUCILLE  FLYNN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committe,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  tvas  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  State  j'our  name.  A.  Lucille  Flynn. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  756  North  4th  street. 

Q.  Where  are  3^00  emplo3-ed?  A.  At  the  shoe  factoiw-. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Sixteen. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  are  emplo3'ed  at  the  shoe  factor3'?  A.  Yes. 

sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  3-ou  been  there?  A.  About  five  months,  four  or 
five  months. 

Q.  Are  3^011  working  bt'  the  piece  or  b3'  the  week?  A.  Piece  work. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing?  A.  Sta3'ing. 

Q.  What  does  that  consist  of?  A.  We  sta3'  up  the  front  and  then 
the  back  of  the  shoe. 

Q.  That  pays  how  much?  A.  some  cases  are  eight  and  some  four. 

Q.  A case  is  seventy-two  shoes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Some  of  them  pa3'  eight  cents?  A.  Yes.  and  some  four,  but  not 
any  higher  than  eight  cents. 

Q.  The  highest  is  eight  and  the  lowest  is  four?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  make  at  that  for  a week?  A.  I just  had  gone  on 
piece  work. 

Q.  What  was  3^our  salar3'  before  3-00  went  on  piece  work?  A.  I 
worked  three  months  for  $4.00. 

Q.  And  then  3-011  came  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes,  I asked  him  for  a 
raise,  and  he  gave  me  a half-dollar  raise. 

Q.  You  asked  for  a raise  and  then  3-00  got  a raise  of  half  a dollar?  A. 
Yes,  and  then  I asked  to  go  on  piece  work  and  I thought  I would  make 
more;  it  has  not  been  a week  3-et,  and  I don’t  know  how  much  I will  make. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  that  has  resulted  in  3-et?  A.  No,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


647 


Q.  Who  is  }'Oiir  foreman?  A.  Mr.  Hollis. 

Q.  Does  he  treat  you  well?  A.  Yes,  he  treats  me  all  right. 

Q.  Does  he  treat  everybody  all  right?  A.  Well,  I have  heard  him 
talk  pretty  cross  to  them. 

Q.  Very  cross?  A.  Yes,  pretty  cross,  more  than  I want  him  to  talk 
to  me. 


Q.  What  does  he  say  when  he  is  cross?  A.  Why,  he  never  w'as  in 
hearing  distance  of  me  and  I don’t  know  what  he  says. 

Q.  You  can  just  hear  by  the  lone  of  voice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  has  never  shaken  3rou  up,  has  he?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  him  shake  an3Tody  else  up?  A.  No,  I have 
never  seen  it. 


Q.  You  have  just  heard  it?  A.  I knowr  he  talks  awful  loud. 

Q.  Did  anybody  tell  you  not  to  come  over  here  tonight?  A.  No,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  ever  seen  any  of  the  girls  cry 
when  this  foreman  was  talking  cross  to  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Very  many  times?  A.  Well,  1 seen  about  three  girls,  I guess. 

Q.  You  have  seen  three  girls  at  different  times  cry?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Because  this  foreman  was  talking  cross  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I think  that  is  all.  A.  I cried  once  myself. 

Q.  You  cried  once  3'ourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that.  A.  I lost  my  grandmother  and  so  I went 
home,  and  when  I came  back  and  m3"  hammer  was  gone,  it  w'as  on  the 
folding  table,  so  I asked  him  w'here  the  hammer  was.  So  I asked  the  fore- 
lady if  she  knew'  where  it  w'as  and  she  said  she  didn’t,  so  I asked  Mr.  Hollis 
and  he  told  the  foreladv  she  would  have  to  tend  to  that.  He  talked  kind  of 
cross  and  then  I could  not  understand  what  he  was  sa3'ing  and  I couldn’t 
help  to  cry,  he  talked  so  dross. 

Q.  Your  hammer  was  lost  and  he  talked  so  cross  to  you  that  you 
cried?  A.  Yes,  she  made  us  pay  fift3'  cents  for  a hammer,  and  I didn’t 
want  to  pa3'  fifty  cents,  so  he  got  me  another  hammer. 

Q.  You  didn’t  have  to  pa\'  for  it?  A.  No  sir. 

Q.  When  a hammer  is  lost  the  girls  have  to  pay  fifty  cents?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Whether  the\’  have  an3'thing  to  do  wdth  the  disappearance  of  the 
hammer  or  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Margaret  Balter’s  Testimony. 


MARGARET  BALTER,  recalled,  and  testified  as  follows: 

II  SENATOR  JUUL:  Were  you  called  in  by  any  foreman  and  told  not 

to  appear  before  this  Committee  today?  A.  No,  he  told  us  not  to  tell. 

Q.  Not  to  tell  what?  A.  What  he  said  of  an3'thing  to  us. 

Q.  Who  did?  A.  Mr.  Alexander;  he  told  us  not  to  tell  anything  what 
he  said. 

Q.  Told  you  not  to  tell  anything  to  this  Committee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  3'ou  what  not  to  tell?  A.  Not  to  tell  that  he  cursed 
I us,  or  an3'thing. 

Q.  What?  A.  Not  to  tell  that  he  cursed  us. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  3'Ou  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  man3'  other  ladies  did  he  tell  that  to?  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  man3'  w'ere  there  when  he  told  it -to  3'OU?  A.  Just  me. 

Q.  Nobody  else?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  know'  that  3’OU  were  going  to  testif3'  here  under  oath?  A 
No,  sir,  he  didn’t. 

Q.  You  don’t  know'  whether  he  knew  that  or  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  he  told  you  not  to  tell  that  he  had  cursed  3^ou?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  use  that  language?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Had  he  cursed  you?  A.  He  cursed  me,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  he  curse  you?  A.  When  I worked  there  before. 

Q.  Not  this  last  time?  A.  No  ,sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Did  he  threaten  you  if  you  did  tell  this  Com- 
mittee the  truth?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  didn’t  threaten  to  fire  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  just  requested  you  not  to  tell  this  Committee  anything  about 
it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Margaret  Brennan’s  Testimony. 

MARGARET  BRENNAN,  recalled,  and  testified  as  follows: 
SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  you  have  a conversation  tonight  with  the 
foreman  in  the  factory?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  anybody  ask  you  what  you  were  to  tell  about  to  this  Commit- 
tee or  what  you  were  not  to  tell?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Bill  Alexander  call  you  in?  A.  No,  sir,  not  me. 

Q.  Whom  did  he  call?  A.  Some  other  girls,  he  didn’t  call  me. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  call  these  other  girls  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  them?  A.  I was  not  one  of  them. 

Q.  Are  they  here?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  are  here. 

Q.  What  are  the  names?  A.  Rose  and  Mabel. 

Q.  Do  you  know  them  back  there?  A.  I can’t  see  them. 

Q.  What  department  are  they  working  in,  in  Alexander’s  department? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Anna  Young’s  Testimony. 

ANNA  YOUNG,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 
SENATOR  JULL:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Anna  Young. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live?  A.  1511  Pennsylvania  avenue. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Sixteen.  • 

Q.  Where  are  you  working?  A.  At  the  shoe  factor^-. 

Q.  In  what  line  of  work?  A.  In  the  cerrient  department. 

Q.  What  is  your  salary?  A.  Why,  I get  $4.50,  but  they  don’t  work 
Saturdays  and  I get  $3.67  when  we  don’t  work  Saturday  afternoon. 

Q.  You  get  $3.67  a week  but  don’t  work  Saturday  afternoon,  is  that 
correct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  work  part  of  Saturday  afternoon?  A.  Half  a da\'  on 
Saturday. 

Q.  Up  to  what  hour  about?  A.  Up  to  12  o’clock. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  working  conditions  over  there,  who  is  your 
foreman?  A.  Hollis. 

Q.  Has  he  been  good  to  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  does  he  treat  you?  A.  He  don’t  treat  them  very  much. 

Q.  You  don’t  mean  to  say  that  he  don’t  treat  them  very  much;  what 
do  you  mean,  that  he  doesn’t  treat  them  very  nice?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  He  just  scolds  them. 

Q.  Does  he  shake  them  occasionally?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  shake  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  him  shake  anybody  else?  A.  I saw  one  girl. 
Q.  You  saw  him  shake  one  girl?  A.  \ es. 

Q.  Shakes  her  pretty  hard?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  a'Ou  ever  seen  anj'  of  the  girls  cry  be- 
cause they  were  scolded?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Quite  often?  * A.  Not  very  often,  no. 

Q.  But  you  have  seen  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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649 


Q.  Did  you  ever  cry  yourself?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  You  just  testified  you  saw  him  actually  shake  one 
girl?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  see  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  truth?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  the  truth. 

Margaret  Lee’s  Testimony. 

MARGARET  LEE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Juul,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Margaret  Lee. 

Q.  How  old  are  you?  A.  Fifteen. 

Q.  When  were  you  born,  in  what  year?  A.  1896. 

Q.  What  day  and  month?  A.  The  7th  day  of  July. 

Q.  You  are  living  with  your  father  and  mother?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  address?  A.  2112  South  12th .street. 

Q.  Where  are  you  working  now?  A.  At  the  International  Shoe 
Company. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  working  there?  A.  Over  a year. 

Q.  How  much  money  were  you  paid  when  you  first  went  to  work 
there?  A.  Well,  the  first  time  I started  in  I was  paid  $3.00;  the  second 
time  I started  in  I was  paid  $4.50. 

Q.  What  are  you  getting  now?  A.  I am  getting  between  $5.00  and 
$7.00  a week. 

Q.  You  are  on  piece  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  best  you  have  ever  made  on  piece  work  in  any  one 
week?  A.  I don’t  know,  1 don’t  remember. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  you  have  ever  made?  A.  The  lowest  for  a 
complete  week,  the  lowest  is  $5.00. 

Q.  You  have  never  made  less  than  five?  A.  No,  sir,  for  a complete 
week. 

Q.  When  they  put  you  on  piece  work  what  was  the  salary  that  they 
were  paying  you  up  to  that  time?  A.  $4.50. 

Q.  Then  putting  you  on  piece  work  really  increased  your  salary  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours  did  you  work  a day?  A.  Ten  hours. 

Q.  The  same  number  of  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No,  sir,  nine  hours 
on  Saturday. 

Q.  You  worked  fifty-nine  hours  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  lowest  you  made  was  $5.50  a week  and  the  highest  you 
made  is  $7.00?  A.  I haven’t  made  quite  $7.00;  between  $6.00  and  $7.00. 

Q.  Some  place  between  $5.00  and  $7.00?  A.  Yes 

Q For  fifty-nine  hours’  work?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  have  been  over  there  a year  altogether?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  department  are  you  employed  in?  A.  The  cutting  de- 
partment. 

Q.  Have  you  a chance  to  spoil  anything?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  do  spoil  something  you  are  fined?  A.  No,  sir,  not  unless 
you  spoil  over  three  in  a case. 

Q.  Then  you  are  fined?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  fined?  A.  Five  cents. 

Q.  What  do  you  get  for  a case?  A.  Well,  it  depends  on  what  kind 
of  a case  it  is;  we  get  between  two  and  a half  and  six  cents. 

Q.  A case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  your  superintendent  there?  A.  Mr.  Deering. 

Q.  Is  he  your  boss?  A.  No. 

Q.  Who  is  your  department  boss?  A.  Mr.  Hill. 

Q.  Does  he  treat  you  nicely?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


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I 


Q.  You  have  no  complaints  to  make  against  him?  A.  Xo,  sir,  I have 
no  complaints  to  make  against  him;  he  has  treated  me  well. 

Q.  He  has  treated  the  other  girls  well?  A.  Yes,  1 haven’t  heard 
them  say  anything  against  him. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  anybody  say  anything  against  IMr.  Hill?  A. 
N^o,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  any  complaints  against  the  other  department 
bosses?  A.  1 have  heard  girls  talk  about  some  of  them  being  cursed. 

Q.  You  have  heard  some  of  the  girls  say  about  some  of  them  being 
cursed?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  about  their  bosses  being  cross  to  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  any  of  the  girls  say  that  any  of  the  department 
bosses  had  shaken  them?  A.  W’ell,  1 have  heard  tell  of  them  jerking  them 
and  a girl  I know  he  cursed. 

Q.  By  cursing  you  mean  that  he  used  profane  language?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  You  know  what  I mean  by  profane  language?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  department  boss  was  it  that  swore  at  this  girl?  A.  ^Ir. 
Hollis. 

Q.  It  is  common  talk  among  the  girls  that  some  of  these  department 
bosses  do  swear  at  some  of  the  girls  and  shake  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  your  department  boss.  Air.  Hill,  j'ou  have  found  him  a verj' 
nice  gentleman?  A.  Yes,  sir,  you  bet  you. 

Q.  We  want  to  hear  of  some  of  these  fine  gentlemen;  this  is  encourag- 
ing. A.  I have  never  heard  tell  of  him  using  slang  language  at  the  girls 
or  cursing  them.  If  he  ever  finds  anything  against  them  he  goes  and  tells 
them  quietly;  he  doesn’t  holler  it  out  so  everybody  else  can  hear. 

Q.  This  department  boss,  if  he  finds  a girl  doesn’t  do  quite  right,  he 
goes  to  her  as  a good  father  or  mother  would  to  a child  and  tell  how  to  do 
it  better  the  next  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  His  name  is  Hill?  A.  A’es,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  name?  A.  I could  not  tell  3-ou  whether  it  was 
William  or  Steve. 

SEX^ATOR  JUUL:  Just  Air.  Hill?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I like  him  better 
than  any  foreman  I have  ever  been  under. 

CHAIRAIAN  O’HARA;  We  like  that  kind  of  men  too;  that  is  all, 
thank  j^ou. 

William  Alexander’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAAI  ALEXANDER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  b\’  Senator  Juul,  was  e.xamined  and  testified  as 
follows : 

SENATOR  JHL'L:  Sit  down.  - 

AIR.  ALEXAX^DER:  I would  rather  stand  up. 

SEN^ATOR  JUUL:  A'ou  would  just  as  soon  stand  up,  but  don’t  let  us 
start  in  having  difficulties.  Please  be  seated. 

(Witness  takes  witness  stand.) 

Q.  State  A'our  name?  A.  William  Ale.xander. 

Q.  What  is  A-our  age.  Air.  Alexander?  A.  TwentA^-seven  j-ears  old. 

Q.  AVhat  is  A'our  position?  A.  I am  foreman  of  the  paper  box  de- 
partment of  the  International  Shoe  CompanA'  at  Springfield. 

Q.  And  as  foreman  a'ou  have  the  poAver  to  hire  and  discharge?  A. 
I do. 

Q.  Hoav  maiiA"  girls  are  emploA'ed  in  A’our  department?  A.  Fourteen. 

Q.  The  business  of  these  fourteen  girls  is  to  do  Avhat?  A.  To  make 
paper  boxes. 

Q.  What  do  a'ou  saA"  is  the  average  Aveekh'  Avage  paid  to  girls  in  A'our 
department?  A.  FiA-e  dollars  and  a half  a, Aveek. 


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651 


H- 

tl  Q.  That  is  the  average?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I j Q-  What  is  the  minimum  wage  at  which  i^ou  start  girls  at  work?  A. 

I I Four  dollars  a week. 

ij  Q.  Have  j^ou  piece  work  in  your  department?  A.  No,  sir. 

A Q.  No  piece  work  at  all?  A.  No,  sir. 

.1  Q.  You  start  all  girls  in  at  $4.00  a week?  A.  According  to  their 

j!  ability;  some  girls  are  paid  $8.50  a week  if  they  are  skilled  enough  to  make  it. 

Q.  How  many  girls  in  your  department  are  paid  $8.50  a week?  A. 
y Only  one. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  consider  that  a fair  test  of  the  wage  that  girls  are 

Ij  paid  in  your  department  at  all,  do  you?  A.  Well,  the  International  Shoe 
■ Company  branch  at  Springfield  has  not  been  working  long.  Eventually 
; they  work  themselves  higher  up. 

Q.  You  have  only  one  girl  that  gets  $8.50  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  the  Committee  in  your  own  way  how  you  regard  the  working 
conditions  of  these  girls  at  your  factor3r.  A.  I consider  that  the  girls  are 
treated  as  well  as  any  man  could  have  treated  them.  We  get  some  girls  in 
our  plant,  they  are  green  hands,  and  we  have  got  to  spend  a good  deal  of 
time  to  break  them  in;  we  are  practically  losing  money  on  them  for  months 
and  months  at  a time.  Eventually  when  they  learn  the  business  they  will 
get  better  money. 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you.  When  you  say  “We  are  practically  losing  money 
on  these  girls  for  months  and  months  and  months,’’ — I believe  that  was 
your  statement?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  ascertained  whether  or  n.ot  your  company  is  losing 
money  on  the  girl  that  it  pays  $4.50  a week  to?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How'  many  hours  do  you  work  a girl  for  that  $4.00?  A.  Fifty-nine 
hours  a week. 

Q.  Your  statement  to  this  Committee  is  that  working  a girl  for  fifty- 
nine  hours  wdth  j^ou  as  foreman,  that  for  months  and  months  you  are  losing 
money  on  her?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Wasn’t  that  your  statement?  A.  No,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUL^L;  Will  you  go  back,  Mr.  Reporter,  let  us  go  back 
and  find  out  just  what  Mr.  Alexander  did  say.  I want  to  give  him  the  full 
ij  benefit  of  ever^’thing  that  he  says  or  wants  to  say. 

J THE  WITNESS;  Senator,  I would  rather  deal  wnth  tlie  paper  box 
I end  of  it;  I am  not  informed  as  to  the  other. 

Q.  You  will  go  exactly  into  the  details  that  I want  j^ou  to  go  into. 
A.  Probably.  If  I can’t  e.xplain  to  j'ou  I will  keep  1113^  mouth  shut. 

j Q.  Now,  then,  you  made  a statement  a few  moments  ago,  and  you 
j said  that  for  a long  while  as  to  certain  girls  you  are  losing  money  on 
them?  A.  Yes,  sir;  in  the  paper  box  department. 

Q.  What  opportunity  have  3'Ou  for  ascertaining  whether  or  not  your 
company  is  losing  money  on  a girl  that  3^011  employ  for  $4.50  a week?  A. 
I am  allowed  a certain  amount  of  money  to  operate  the  department  to 
make  it  a profitable  venture,  and  in  m3'  own  doings  I figured  the  actual 
cost  of  each  operation  in  the  manufacture  of  a carton  complete. 

j Q.  Yes?  A.  And  I assign  a certain  amount  of  money  to  the  pro- 

j duction  of  that  carton,  to  each  operator, 
j Q.  You  know  the  cost  of  those  cartons?  A.  I do. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  you  try  to  make  it  a profitable  venture?  A.  I 
j do,  to  make  it  a profitable  venture,  certainly. 

i Q.  How  do  you  know  whether  the  venture  is  profitable  or  not?  A. 

I I know  by  keeping  m3'  own  account. 

i O.  You  are  simply  basing  3'our  estimate  on  that  on  what  the  firm  is 

I allowing  you  for  making  a box  and  not  as  to  the  value  of  the  box?  A. 
Yes,  I was  basing  it  on  the  value  of  the  box,  the  actual  merchandising  of 
it  and  labor. 

Q.  You  fix  the  price  of  labor,  don’t  3'ou?  A.  I fix  the  price  of  labor 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


so  I can  make  it  a profitable  box;  if  I did  not  make  it  profitable  my  posi- 
tion would  not  be  worth  anything. 

Q.  What  I want  to  try  to  get  at  is;  is  it  possible  to  work  any  woman 
fifty-nine  hours  a week  at  box  making  or  any  other  line  of  industr\-  that 
you  know  of  and  accept  the  work  that  she  produces,  and  lose  money  on 
her?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is. 

Q.  That  is  possible?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  possible;  it  depends  on  the 
ability  of  the  girl.  If  we  have  a girl  come  into  the  box  plant  and  sit  down 
and  waste  her  time,  we  lose  money  in  that  operation. 

Q.  I take  it  that  you  are  not  running  a charitable  institution?  A. 
No,  sir;  I am  not. 

Q.  How  long  would  you  keep  her  in  that  institution  if  she  sat  down 
and  didn’t  do  the  work?  A.  Not  an  hour. 

Q.  Exactly,  you  could  not  lose  money  on  her?  A.  We  are  com- 
pelled to  do  it  to  a certain  extent,  because  there  is  such  a scarcity  of 
labor,  such  a scaracity  of  labor  that  we  are  compelled  to  keep  girls  that 
don’t  earn  their  money. 

Q.  You  say  there  is  a great  scarcity  of  labor?  A.  There  is. 

Q.  You  seem  to  be  able  to  get  girls  out  of  good  families  by  giving 

them  $4.00  a week  for  their  labors?  A.  Yes,  sir,  occasionally. 

Q.  And  the  reason  you  are  giving  this  is  because  there  is  a scarcity 

of  labor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  a daughter?  A.  I haven’t  any. 

Q.  Would  you  like  to  have  a daughter  of  yours,  if  j'ou  had  one,  work 
in  a factory  under  exactly  the  same  conditions  and  circumstances  that  these 
girls  are  compelled  to  work  in  yours?  A.  I would  not  object  to  it,  if  she 
was  there  learning  a trade. 

Q.  How  long,  Mr.  Alexander,  does  it  take  to  learn  that  trade?  A.  It 
depends  on  what  you  call  learning  it;  they  don’t  learn  that  trade  thoroughly 
right  from  the  beginning  of  a shoe  carton  until  it  is  completed,  because  the 
girls  are  put  on  one  machine,  and  they  may  stop  there  months  and  months 
before  they  are  changed  to  something  else. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  step  after  a girl  is  emploj-ed  at  $4.00?  A.  Four 
dollars  and  a half  a week. 

Q.  When  you  have  advanced  her  and  consider  her  a competent  girl 
in  the  next  step?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  the  scarcity  of  labor  has  not  made  her  worth  more  than 
50  cents  additional  per  week  to  you?  A.  It  would  depend  on  whether 
the  girl  gets  into  any  particular  line  of  work,  and  this  girl  would  step  into 
her  position,  whether  she  would  be  capable  of  filling  it. 

Q.  Try  and  answer  my  question:  When  a girl  is  advanced  to  $4.50  a 
week,  when  you  find  her  worthy  of  promotion,  then  she  is  a useful  girl? 
A.  Provided  there  is  an  opportunity  of  promoting  her. 

Q.  When  you  do  promote  her?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  finally  do  promote  her  to  $4.50  a week  then  the  girl  is 
fitted  for  your  business,  or  you  would  not  keep  her?  A.  I will  admit 
that. 

Q.  You  have  advanced  her  50  cents?  A.  \ es,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  the  next  step?  A.  It  depends  on  whether  ain-body 
gets  on  another  machine.  It  depends  on  what  machine  happens  to  be 
vacant  next. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  financially  for  her?  A.  For  who? 

Q.  For  this  girl?  A.  She  will  staj'  the  same  until  some  other  girl 
gets  on  some  other  machine. 

Q.  That  would  be  for  how  long  a time?  A.  iMaybe  two  or  three 
weeks,  maybe  a month,  maj'be  three  months. 

Q.  But  if  she  stayed  there  three  months  you  would  consider  her  a 
competent  girl?  A.  Not  necessarily,  it  depends  upon  the  portion  of  work 
that  we  give  her. 

Q.  She  would  not  be  a competent  girl?  A.  She  would  be  for  the 
work  she  tvas  doing, 


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653 


Q.  Do  you  make  use  of  the  work  that  she  produces;  you  make  use 
of  it  in  business?  A.  To  a certain  extent. 

Q.  She  don’t  spoil  it?  A.  No,  but  it  is  the  speed  of  the  girl  that 
counts. 

Q.  Oh,  it  is  the  speed?  A.  What  else  is  it  any  place  else? 

Q.  You  are  the  manufacturer  and  we  are  trying  to  find  out;  now,  will 
you  tell  this  Committee  as  to  the  manner  that  they  are  treated?  A.  They 
are  treated  by  me  just  as  good  as  any  man  can  treat  help. 

Q.  You  don’t  talk  gruffiy  to  them  at  all?  A.  Never  at  any  time. 

Q.  You  don’t  shake  them?  A.  I should  say  not,  sir;  they  wouldn’t 
stand  for  it,  and  I would  not  do  it. 

Q.  If  any  young  lady  had  come  up  here  and  told  this  Committee 
that  you  had  cursed  her,  or  had  talked  gruffiy  to  her,  or  grabbed  her  by 
the  arm  and  swung  her  around,  or  treated  her  generally  in  that  manner, 
then  you  would  say  that  this  young  lady  was  lying?  A.  I would  say  so, 
I would  like  to  have  you  bring  that  young  lady  up  here  and  thrash  the 
thing  right  out. 

Q.  So  you  disagree  with  all  the  ten  or  twelve  ladies  that  have  testified 
before  this  Committee  that  you  were  in  the  habit  of  treating  the  girls 
gruffiy  and  grabbing  them,  by  the  arms  and  cursing  them,  you  disagree 
with  them  entirely?  A.  I disagree  with  the  events  that  was  published  in 
the  evening  of  last  Thursday  and  Friday. 

Q.  I haven’t  read  the  newspaper  reports.  A.  You  have  heard  the 
testimony  as  they  have  testified;  if  you  will  bring  those  girls  here  we  will 
settle  the  whole  thing. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  settle  it?  A.  If  you  will  bring  the  girls 
here  I will  deny  everything  and  prove  it  to  you  that  she  is  a liar.  I think 
I can  explain  the  whole  business  myself  if  you  will  listen  to  me.  Will  you 
listen  to  me? 

Q.  I am  listening.  A.  The  girl  stated  before  this  Committee  that 
she  worked  in  the  shoe  factory  four  years  ago  for  $3.00  a week.  The 
truth  is  that  the  girl  started  for  the  Davidson  Paper  Box  Factory,  she 
commenced  ten  years  ago  at  the  age  of  sixteen  years,  when  she  was  paid 
$3.50  a week  for  working  eight  hours  a day. 

Q.  That  is  what  she  said.  A.  That  is  the  fact,  but  it  didn’t  state 
that  in  the  paper.  I have  got  to  read  the  paper  as  to  my  evidence;  I 
suppose  they  published  the  truth,  but  I am  sorry  they  don’t  publish  the 
facts. 

Q.  Go  right  ahead.  A.  This  same  girl,  at  the  age  of  sixteen  and  a 
half  or  seventeen  years  of  age,  she  made  at  piece  work,  piece  wages,  $7.50 
or  $8.00  a week  at  the  Davidson  Paper  Box  Factory,  and  they  went 
through  bankruptcy  through  the  same  conditions  by  paying  their  people 
high  wages.  They  had  to  go  into  the  bankruptcy  court. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  box  company  went  into  bankruptcy?  A.  I say 
that  the  Davidson  Paper  Box  Company  went  into  bankruptcy  through 
paying  large  wages  to  their  help. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  what  they  paid?  A.  They  paid  this  girl, 
when  she  commenced,  $3.00  a week. 

Q.  And  she  worked  six  days  a week?  A.  Yes,  I presume  forty- 
eight  hours  a week;  they  paid  her  $3.00  a week. 

Q.  And  we  are  taking  it  for  granted  that  that  is  true?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  went  into  bankruptcy  because  they  paid  that  wage?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  I haven’t  any  doubt  of  it;  they  can  make  paper  boxes  in  St. 
Louis  cheaper  than  we  can,  and  the  only  benefit  we  get  is  to  have  the 
paper  boxes  right  near  the  work,  and  we  can  have  any  size  lot  that  we 
wish  without  waiting  for  a shipment  from  St.  Louis. 

Q.  You  just  struck  the  very  thing  that  I want  to  get  at;  you  say 
they  can  make  them  at  St.  Louis  for  less  than  you  can  here?  A.  I 
believe  so. 

Q.  You  can  hire  girls  for  $4.00  a week  and  you  can’t  compete  with 
St.  Louis,  is  that  the  situation?  A.  That  is  the  situation.  In  St.  Louis 


1 


654  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

the  Homan  Paper  Box  Company  is  probably  making  75,000  to  100,000 
cartons  a day.  If  I had  to  make  50,000  cartons  a day  I could  make  them 
as  cheap  as  what  they  can  in  St.  Louis,  but  at  the  same  time  labor  con- 
ditions in  the  city  of  Springfield,  and  particularly  in  the  paper  box  depart- 
ment, are  not  any  cheaper  than  they  are  in  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Then  in  order  to  compete  with  St.  Louis  you  are  still  looking  for 
cheaper  labor  conditions,  isn’t  that  so?  A.  If  we  can  possibly  get  them 
I will  put  them  to  work  tomorrow. 

Q.  For  less  money?  A.  Yes,  sir;  isn’t  it  business  to  do  it? 

Q.  No,  I disagree  with  j-ou.  You  are  reversing  the  thing.  You  are 
putting  me  on  the  stand  and  I am  trying  to  keep^you  on  the  stand.  A. 
\Vell,  go  ahead,  then. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Alexander,  do  you  consider  that  there  is  a moral  or 
legal  obligation  on  the  part  of  any  big,  health}-  man  who  hires  a woman, 
and  particularly  a weak,  young  woman,  a weak,  3'oung  girl,  to  work  for 
him,  do  you  consider  that  there  is  any  moral  or  legal  obligation  on  the 
part  of  that  man,  who  takes  her  on  Monday  morning  and  keeps  her  until 
Saturday  night,  to  treat  that  girl  at  least  as  well  as  he  does  his  horse; 
to  feed  her  enough,  to  stable  her,  to  blanket  her,  if  3-ou  please,  if  the 
weather  is  cold;  do  3'ou  consider  that  there  is  an  obligation  on  the  part  of 
any  man  who  takes  the  services  of  that  girl  to  give  her  a place  to  sleep, 
sufficient  to  eat  and  clothing  enough  to  cover  her  nakedness  when  in  ex- 
change for  that  she  gives  him  her  time  from  Monda}^  morning  till  Satur- 
da}^  night,  of  the  best  that  is  in  her?  A.  Yes,  but  just  for  a minute 

Q.  Just  answer  my  question,  answer  3'es  or  no  first.  A.  No. 

Q.  There  is  no  obligation?  A.  No. 

Q.  If  she  can  get  enough  to  eat  elsewhere  that  is  all  right,  and  if  she 
don’t  she  can  starve,  is  that  the  idea?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  consider  that  a man  under  those  conditions  has  any 
moral  obligation  resting  upon  him?  A.  It  depends  on  the  kind  of  work 
that  she  is  working  on.  On  the  start  they-  are  not  worth  $2.50  a week, 
where  the  same  girls  would  be  worth  $4.50  or  $6.00  with  more  experience. 

Q.  You  are  not  hiring  them  at  $6.50  or  $6.00?  A.  No,  sir;  but  if  I 
can  get  a girl  I am  willing  to  pa}-  what  she  is  worth. 

Q.  But  3-0U  want  a girl  that  3-ou  can  drive  on  a high  speed  average? 
A.  No,  sir;  I want  a girl  to  do  a fair,  nice  day’s  work. 

Q.  Then  these  girls  are  not  doing  a fair  week!}-  work?  A.  It  de- 
pends upon  what  is  considered  a fair  weekl}-  work. 

Q.  I am  asking  you.  A.  I will  give  y-ou  an  opinion. 

Q.  What  is  3-our  opinion?  A.  It  depends  on  the  skill  of  the  girl. 

Q.  It  doesn’t  depend  upon  the  wants  of  the  girl  then?  A.  Some 
girls  want  more  than  others. 

Q.  Well,  all  of  them  want  food  and  clothes.  -•V.  \ es,  but  it  depends 

on  the  amount  of  clothes.  Some  want  enough  clothes,  some  never  have 
enough  no  matter  how  much  they  have.  I have  got  a wife  at  home  that  is 
never  satisfied. 

Q.  Never  satisfied?  .A..  Never  satisfied,  and  I guess  it  is  the  same 
with  you  yourselves.  That  is  the  reason  that  we  have  to  make  our  shoes 
as  cheaply  as  we  can  to  compete  with  other  manufacturers;  they  have 
cheap  labor  conditions. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  girls  arc  entitled  to  their  meals  each  day? 
A.  She  gets  them  over  there. 

Q.  Y'hatever  you  give  them?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  I am  in  position  to 
know;  two  girls,  I won’t  mention  names,  but  I know  them,  they  worked 

at  the  DesNoids  Shoe  Compaii}-,  worked  under  me  for  $3.00  a week  for 

six  months  and  were  satisfied. 

Q.  They  were  satisfied?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  never  thought  of  starting 
anybody  in  with  the  DesNoids  Shoe  Company  for  more  than  that. 

Q.  They  were  self-supporting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  not  anvbody  who  would  dare  to  tell  you  or  anybody  else 

in  Springfield  that  a girl  who  works  for  a living  is  not  as  good  as  any 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


655 


other  girl,  and  I think  she  is;  but  i am  asking  you,  suppose  a j'Oting 
woman  has  to  look  to  her  wages  for  her  meals  and  her  room  and  her 
clothing,  nice  clothing,  not  fancy  clothing,  but  nice  clothing,  can  she  get 
them  out  of  what  you  are  paying  her?  A.  There  is  only  one  girl  in  my 
department  that  is  paying  a weekly  board.  I make  inquirj'  as  to  whether 
ihey  are  staying  at  home  with  their  parents  or  not,  and  there  is  only  one 
that  pays  weekly  board,  and  that  girl  is  getting  the  top  rate. 

Q.  What  is  she  getting?  A.  Eight  dollars  and  a half;  the  other  girls 
are  getting  from  $4.00  up  and  no  more;  they  are  getting  what  the^'  are 
earning  and  no  more. 

Q.  Do  i'ou  mean  to  tell  this  Committee  that  when  you  pay  her  $4.00 
a week  she  is  getting  all  that  she  earns?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  do?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  haven’t  been  in  this  country-  very  long.^ 
A.  No,  sir;  seven  years.  My  father  was  a Scotsman,  my  mother  was 
English,  and  I was  born  right  on  the  border  line  between  the  two  countries. 
My  father  claims  I am  a Scotsman  and  my  mother  claims  I am  an  English- 
man, so  I’ll  be  d d if  I know  what  I am. 

Q.  Where  did  j-ou  learn  the  box  business?  A.  Springfield,  111. 

Q.  What  business  have  you  pursued  before  you  came  to  this  countiw'? 
A.  That  of  a professional  pedestrian;  do  3mu  know  what  that  is?  It  is 
given  in  Webster’s  Dictionary,  I have  never  read  it  from  cover  to  cover, 
but  it  is  in  there. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  the  box  business  after  you  came  to  Springfield?  A. 
1 believe  I did. 

Q.  Had  you  been  in  any  manufacturing  business  before  j'ou  came  to 
Springfield  and  learned  the  box  business?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  This  is  your  first  experience  in  business?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  j'our  first  experience  in  business?  A.  I learned  a 
grocer}"  trade. 

Q.  W’here  did  3'ou  learn  that  trade?  A.  Oh,  I learned  that  in  Eng- 
land. 

Q.  In  what  capacitv  were  vou  first  employed  in  the  box  business? 
A.  As  that  of  an  assembler  of  shoes  in  the  cutting  department. 

O.  What  were  you  paid  at  that  time?  A.  Six  dollars  a week,  for  the 
DesNoids  Shoe  Compan}-,  and  I was  satisfied  with  that. 

Q.  You  were  married  at  that  time?  A.  I hope  not. 

Q.  You  managed  to  support  j'ourself  on  $6.00  a week?  A.  I did, 

fine. 

O.  How  long  did  you  remain  working  for  $6.00?  A.  Oh,  about  a 
month. 

0.  And  then  r'ou  were  raised?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  to  how  much?  A.  To  $7.50. 

Q.  You  got  $1  50  raise?  A.  I did,  and  spent  it  all  that  Saturday 
night,  too. 

O.  Then  when  did  you  o'o  to  work  for  the  International  Shoe  Com- 
pany? A.  A year  and  a half  ago. 

Q.  How  much  were  3"ou  making  at  that  time?  A.  I refuse  to  answer. 
Q.  Have  you  consulted  anj'one  about  answering  that  question?  A 
Vobod}"  but  just  m3"self. 

How  much  are  3-011  making  toda}'?  A.  I would  not  want  to 

-nswer. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  We  will  summon  3"ou  with  the  pav  roll.  A. 
Well,  3"ou  have  got  the  pa}"  roll,  it  is  all  right;  get  it  from  the  pay  roll. 

CHAIRIklAN  O’HARA;  You  refuse  to  answer?  A.  I do;  I don’t 
think  it  is  necessar}-  for  me  to  answer  that. 

Q.  You  are  not  back  in  your  department,  3-011  realize?  A.  I realize 

iliat. 

Q.  Then  I ask  3-011  again  how  much  mone}-  3-011  are  getting  now;  and 


656  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


I wish  you  to  understand  that  you  are  now  on  an  equality  with  these  girls 
who  have  been  testifying  here.  You  will  receive  fair  and  courteous  treat- 
ment, and  you  will  answer  the  questions  of  this  Committee.  A.  I don’t 
think  it  is  necessary  for  me  to  answer. 

Q.  I don’t  care  for  your  opinion;  I am  asking  you  that  question.  A. 
I don’t  think  it  is  necessary  for  me  to  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Are  you  going  to  answer  that  question?  A.  Twenty  dollars  a 
week. 

Q.  Thank  you.  Now,  Mr.  Alexander,  how  many  girls  are  employed 
in  your  department?  A.  Thirteen  or  fourteen. 

Q.  During  the  year  and  a half  that  has  been  the  total  number  of 
girls  employed  there?  A.  Oh,  I could  not  specify  that.  I guess  there  has 
been  so  many  coming  and  going  you  could  not  keep  track  of  them;  they 
do  that  all  over  the  factory. 

Q.  Come  and  go  all  the  time?  A.  Yes,  sir;  in  fact,  some  of  them 
will  come  in  in  the  morning  and  go  away  within  an  hour. 

Q.  They  are  not  satisfied  with  the  work?  A.  No. 

Q.  And  you  are  not  satisfied  with  them?  A.  No,  I am  not  satisfied 
with  their  work,  and  sometimes  I am  not  satisfied  with  them;  it  depends 
on  what  they  look  like. 

Q.  In  this  factory  do  they  give  you  a certain  amount  of  money  to 
run  your  department  with  and  require  a certain  amount  of  work?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  system?  A.  The  system  is  that  we  have  got  to 
make  boxes  there  as  cheap  as  we  possibly  can,  and  yet  at  the  same  time 
pay  reasonable  wages. 

Q.  If  you  were  unable  to  make  boxes,  for  instance,  in  your  factory 
at  as  low  a rate  as  some  other  foreman  could,  then  they  might  get  another 
foreman  in  your  department?  A.  Maybe. 

Q.  And  to  hold  your  job  you  have  got  to  turn  out  boxes  at  the  lowest 
possible  figure?  A.  Not  at  the  lowest  possible  figure,  but  a fair  figure 
based  on  a fair  estimate. 

Q.  You  told  Senator  Juul  that  if  you  could  get  girls  cheaper  you 
would  get  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  would  take  them  at  any  figure  you  could 
get  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  you  would  hire  them  at  $2.00  a week?  A.  I didn’t  say  $2.00 
a week. 

O.  You  said  as  cheap  as  possible.  A.  At  $2.50;  they  worked  before 
at  $2.50  for  the  DesNoids  Shoe  CompanJ^  but  I didn’t  tell  you  how  many 
hours  they  worked. 

CHAIRMAN  D’KAR-L:  How  many  factories  are  owned  be-  the  In- 
ternational Shoe  Company?  A.  I don’t  know  anything  about  that,  only 
this  plant  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  company  has  other  box  factories?  A. 
I don’t  know. 

SENATOR  JLM^L:  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  j'ou  manufacture 
boxes  here  and  send  them  to  other  factories?  A.  I know  I don’t. 

Q.  They  have  box  factories  elsewhere,  shoe  factories  elsewhere,  you 
don’t  furnish  them  with  boxes?  A.  No,  sir;  they  might  have  them  else- 
where, I don’t  know. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Then  you  imaeine,  ^Ir.  Alexander,  that  if 
you  were  unable  to  produce  boxes  here  as  cheaply  as  they  might  in  St. 
Louis  that  you  would  be  criticized  for  that?  A.  I might  be  if  I could  not 
make  them  at  the  same  basis  they  can  bin-  their  boxes  from  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  in  this  world  of  cold  business, 
you  would  lose  your  job  if  you  didn’t  get  as  much  work  out  of  your  deoart- 
ment  as  possible;  if  von  didn’t  eet  the  maximum  work  out  of  your  helpers 
vou  would  be  considered  lacking  in  ability?  A.  That  is  possibly  the 
judgment,  I presume. 

Q.  That  is  your  opinion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


657 


SENATOR  JUUL:  In  other  words,  there  is  not  anything  in  Mr. 
Alexander  that  makes  him  hard-hearted;  he  is  simply  a part  of  the  system. 

Q.  Isn’t  that  right?  You  haven’t  any  particular  dislike  to  these  girls 
so  that  you  should  like  to  hire  them  for  $2.00  or  $3.00  a week?  A.  Dislike 
t for  them? 

* Q.  There  isn’t  anything  in  your  make-up  that  makes  you  feel  hostile 
. to  these  girls;  you  are  simply  a part  of  the  system,  where  you  are  com- 
1 pelled  by  circumstances  in  that  line  of  trade  to  get  that  work  done  as 
' cheaply  as  possible?  A.  I would  not  be  compelled;  my  allowance  on 
: manufacture  of  paper  boxes,  on  that  I could  pay  $4.00  a week,  which  I 
ought  to  do.  I don’t  believe  that  my  superior  officer,  Mr.  Derby,  would 
; stand  for  a girl  to  be  hired  at  $3.50  a week. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  just  stated  that  you  would  go  out  and 

hire  as  cheaply  as  you  could;  would  Mr.  Derby  approve  of  it?  A.  I didn’t 

tell  you  he  would;  that  is  what  I would  do.  How  about  this  girl,  about 
' her  fainting  under  such  condition,  you  never  asked  me  about  that.- 

SENATOR  JUUL:  You  denied  that  you  ever  handled  any  of  the 
girls  gruffly,  but  eight  or  ten  witnesses  testified  that  you  did.  A.  I could 
tell  you  myself  that. 

( Q.  You  have  denied  it?  A.  I will  explain  it  to  you:  that  girl  never 
I fainted.  I never  put  my  hands  on  her  at  all.  The  last  time  she  had  any 

r trouble  was  a fit  that  she  had  over  there.  Then  we  had  to  send  out  and 

send  for  a physician  and  had  her  sent  to  a hospital;  the  girl  had  a fit,  and 
then  they  wanted  the  company  to  pay  all  those  bills. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Is  it  your  opinion  that  the  company  should 
not  pay  bills  of  that  nature?  A.  I should  think  not. 

SENATOR  JUUL;  That  is  preposterous,  Mr.  Alexander?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  think  that  would  be  preposterous?  A.  I think  it  would  be 
preposterous  if  the  company  was  to  pay  any  such  bills;  it  is  not  necessary. 
The  girl  is  in  ill  health  and  has  been  ever  since  I have  known  her.  She 
( will  faint  on  the  slightest  jar  on  the  floor  upstairs. 

i Q.  How  long  did  she  work?  A.  She  worked  for  the  Davidson  Paper 
, Box  Company  seven  years  ago. 

i Q.  She  was  working  there  four  weeks  ago?  A.  Yes,  sir;  she  com- 
i menced  work  seven  years  ago. 

I Q.  What  had  she  been  paid  in  the  matter  of  waves?  A.  She  started 
^ for  the  International  Shoe  Company  on  February  20,  1912,  at  $4.00  per 
■ week. 

In.  Yes?  A.  And  inside  of  one  year,  ending  February  17,  1913.  her 
wages  were  $7.00  a week,  an  increase  of  the  wages  of  the  girl  of  $3.00  in 
■ one  year. 


Q.  You  started  her  too  low?  A.  I didn’t  start  her  too  low.  Listen: 
If  I would  have  started  her  at  $7.00  a week  she  would  have  Stayed  there, 
because  she  could  not  have  earned  any  more  on  the  machine;  in  fact,  they 
are  even  paying  her  more,  was  pajdng  her  more  when  she  quit  than  what 
she  was  earning. 

O.  After  seven  years  in  the  business  she  was  not  earning  $7.00  a 
week?  A.  She  was  not  earning  $7.00  a week. 

Q.  She  was  an  experienced  girl?  A.  I will  put  a girl  on  a machine, 
and  in  three  weeks  that  girl  will  get  so,  yes,  the  second  week  she  is  there 
she  will  get  so  that  she  will  do  more  w'ork  in  a week  than  this  girl  ever 
done  in  her  life  in  the  same  length  of  time. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  paying  her?  A.  Six  dollars  per  week. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  How  do  j'^ou  know  that  this  girl  had  a fit? 
A.  I have  got  the  physician  here  that  attended  her;  w’e  can  have  the 
physician  here  to  prove  to  you  that  she  had  a fit. 

Q.  Who  paid  for  that  physician?  A.  I am  not  paying  the  company’s 
bill;  I don’t  know  anything  about  it.  I believe  the  company  would  pay 
for  the  medical  attendance  on  the  first  trip,  I believe  they  would. 

O.  Then  the  physician  you  refer  to  is  in  the  employ  of  your  com- 
*^any?  A.  How  should  I know? 


658 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  often  do  you  take  a vacation,  Mr.  Alexander?  A.  A vaca- 
tion ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I worked  for  the  DesRoids  Shoe  Compan3'  for  four 
years  and  a half  and  never  lost  an  hour  except  when  I went  and  got 
married. 

Q.  You  never  lost  an  hour?  A.  Never  lost  an  hour;  the  only  hour 
that  I ever  had  off  I went  and  got  married,  and  that’s  the  best  thing  I ever 
done  in  my  life. 

Q.  I believe  it  was.  A.  I would  marry  again  if  I had  the  chance. 

Q.  Have  you  had  a vacation  since  you  went  over  there  to  the  Inter- 
national Shoe  Companj'?  A.  This  is  the  first  one  I believe  I ever  had. 

Q.  This  one  here  tonight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  work  days  or  nights?  A.  No,  sir;  I never  worked  an 
hour  overtime  in  my  life  that  I can  remember. 

Q.  Why  do  j'ou  call  this  a vacation,  at  night?  A.  I staj"  in  the 
house  with  my  wife,  where  I ought  to. 

Q.  About  four  and  a half  years  and  you  have  had  onlj'  two  vacations; 
one  was  to  get  married  and  an  evening  off  to  come  before  this  Committee? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  feels  honored,  I^Ir.  Alexan- 
der. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Supporting  a wife  and  family  do  you  manage 
to  save  verj'  much?  A.  I never  saved  a red  cent  in  my  life. 

Q.  And  we  are  all  a part  of  this  great  sc^stem?  A.  Yes,  we  are  all 
in  the  same  system. 

Q.  We  have  all  the  same  battle  to  fight  that  the  girls  have?  A.  I 
guess  so. 

SENATOR  JUUL:  Did  \-ou  instruct  an\-  of  the  \-oung  ladies  over 
there,  Mr.  Alexander,  not  to  answer  questions?  A.  Concerning  this 
Committee’s  inquiries? 

Q.  Yes?  A.  I will  swear  I never  told  them  anything. 

Q.  You  are  denying  it?  A.  I am  denying  it;  yes,  sir;  I den\-  it. 

Q.  Do  you  deny  that  you  ever  shook  a girl?  A.  That  I ever  shook 
anybodjc 

Q.  Or  ever  cursed  anybody?  A.  I never  did;  the  girl  that  testified 
before  this  Committee  that  I swore  at  her  or  shook  her,  if  you  will  bring 
her  here  she  will  den\'  it  right  in  front  of  me. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  to  tell  me  that  all  of  these  girls  told  an  untruth? 
A.  I sav  that  that  girl  said  what  amounts  to  the  same  as  all  of  them  told. 
I am  saying  that  what  this  girl  told  before  this  Committee  Friday  night 
is  untrue.  If  you  will  bring  her  before  the  Committee  I will  prove  that 
ever}"  word  that  she  has  told  }"ou  is  a lie. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  wish  to  go  on  record  as  branding  as 
untruthful  every  one  of  these  girls  who  have  said  you  swore  at  the  girls 
and  shook  them;  you  wish  to' go  on  record  as  charging  each  and  every 
one  of  them  with  perjurv?  A.  I didn’t  saj"  I branded  anyone  as  a liar;  I 
say  they  didn’t  tell  the  truth,  and  that  is  the  mildest  tenns  that  I could 
use,  and  anj"  of  these  newspaper  reporters  who  are  sitting  around  here, 
the}"  didn’t  tell  the  truth. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Alexander:  thank  you. 

W hereupon,  on  motion  of  Senator  Tossey,  an  adjournment  was 
taken. 


SESSION  XXIV. 


An  employer  and  a labor  union  representative  furnish  infor- 
mation concerning  wages  and  labor  conditions  in  the  broom  manu- 
facturing industry  as  affecting  women  workers.  Sociological  stu- 
dent quotes  from  his  experience  and  observations  as  a member  of 
the  Chicago  Vice  Commission,  tells  something  of  the  facts  gath- 
ered by  that  body,  and  endorses  the  idea  of  a minimum  wage. 
Operator  of  many  coat  and  hat  checking  concessions  in  well 
known  cafes  and  hotels  answers  questions  concerning  rules  gov- 
erning his  girl  employes.  Testimony  of: 

Mr.  E.  C.  Jones,  broom  manufacturer. 

Mr.  Willis  E.  Harvey,  business  agent.  International  Broom 
Makers’  Union. 

Prof.  Graham  Taylor,  President,  Chicago  School  of  Civics 
and  Philanthropy,  member  of  Chicago  Vice  Commis- 
sion and  student  of  social  problems. 

Jacque  Rosseau,  concessionaire. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  May  26,  1913,  10  o’clock  A.  M. 

LaSalle  Hotel. 

The  Committee  met,  pursuant  to  notice,  there  being  present  Chair- 
man O’Hara,  Senator  Beall  and  Senator  Tossey,  and  the  following  pro- 
ceedings were  had : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  Is  Mr.  E.  C. 
Jones  here? 

Mr.  E.  C.  Jones’  Testimony. 

E.  C.  TONES,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CH.AIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  E.  C.  Jones. 

Q.  And  your  business,  Mr.  Jones?  A.  Broom  manufacturer. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  company  with  which  you  were  connected?  A. 
The  United  States  Broom  and  Brush  Company. 

Q.  You  are  president  of  that  company?  A.  I am. 

Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
y.  Incorporated  in  Illinois?  A.  They  are. 

Q.  What  is  the  location  of  your  factory?  A.  Clybourn  avenue  and 
Clybourn  place. 

Q.  How  many  women  and  girls  do  you  employ  there?  A.  We  had  fifty- 
three  on  the  pay  roll  last  week. 

Q.  And  how  many  men  were  on  the  pay  roll  last  week?  A.  Seventeen. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  operating  that  factory?  A.  About  three 
years  ; it  will  be  three  years  in  October. 

Q.  Now,  go  back  a year,  Mr.  Jones,  approximately  how  many  women  and 
men  did  you  employ  a year  ago?  A.  M'ell,  I should  say  about  ten  ner  cent 
less. 

Q.  Ten  per  cent  less  women?  A.  No,  ten  per  cent  less  employes  than 
we  are  employing  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  The  proportion  a year  ago  of  men  and  women  is  the  same  as  now? 
A.  No,  we  are  w'orking  more  today  than  we  w'ere  working  a year  ago. 

Q.  I am  trying  to  get  at  this,  Mr.  Jones;  did  you  employ  more  men  in 

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comparison  with  the  number  of  women  a year  ago?  A.  No,  we  didn’t;  we 
employed  less. 

Q.  Then  you  haven’t  discharged  your  men  and  filled  their  places  with 
women?  A.  We  haven’t;  we  are  using  more  men  today  than  we  was  a year 
ago. 

Q.  What  was  the  average  wage  received  by  the  wmmen  last  week?  A.  1 
think  it  was  in  the  neighborhood  of  $7.20. 

Q.  What  was  the  lowest  rate  paid  to  any  girl  or  woman?  A.  Five  dollars. 

Q.  That  was  the  lowest?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  paid  less  than  $5.00  a week  for  a full  week’s  work  to 
any  woman  or  girl?  A.  We  have  paid  $4.00  for  girls  under  sixteen,  that  is, 
for  the  first  week ; for  the  second  week  $4.50,  and  for  the  third  week,  $5.00, 
but  we  have  discontinued  using  girls  under  sixteen  years  of  age. 

Q.  At  the  present  time  $5.00  is  the  lowest  minimum  wage?  A.  It  is,  yes. 

Q.  Would  it  seriously  handicap  the  business  if  jmu  w'ere  to  establish  a 
minimum  wage  at  $7.50?  A.  I don’t  think  it  would. 

Q.  You  come  in  competition  wdth  the  products  of  prison  labor?  A.  We 
do,  yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  effect  of  prison  labor  upon  free  labor?  A.  Why,  it  is 
very  demoralizing,  so  far  as  prices  go. 

Q.  If  you  were  not  forced  to  compete  with  prison  labor,  do  you  think  it 
would  be  possible  for  you  to  pay  higher  wages  to  girls  employed  in  your  fac- 
tory? A.  I don’t;  we  have  girls  there,  women,  that  are  making  $10.00  to  $12,00 
a week,  but  they  are  competent ; they  have  been  there  some  time. 

Q.  Now,  what  was  the  highest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  or  woman  in  your 
employ  last  week?  A.  I think  it  was  $11.80. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  this  girl’s  work?  A.  She  worked  at  a ma- 
chine making  brooms. 

Q.  What  did  the  men  in  your  employ  do?  A.  They  worked  on  machines 
at  the  same  class  of  work. 

Q.  Did  they  do  the  same  kind  of  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  highest  wage  paid  to  any  man  working  on  a machine  in 
your  employ  last  week?  A.  Fifteen  dollars  and  sixty  cents. 

Q,  Wtet  was  the  reason  that  he  received  $15.60  while  the  woman  only 
received  $11.80?  A.  Because  he  accomplished  more  work. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  by  the  piece  system?  A.  Yes,  sir,  part  of  them;  that 
class  of  work  we  pay  by  the  piece  system. 

Q.  That  is,  the  girl  that  received  $11.80  was  paid  on  the  piece  system?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  man  who  received  $15.60  was  paid  on  the  piece  system?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  the  rate  per  piece  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  was  no  difference?  A.  No  difference  whatever. 

Q.  You  make  no  distinction  between  the  price  paid  to  the  woman  and  the 
price  paid  to  the  man?  A.  No  distinction  at  all;  most  women  work  less  hours, 
and  that  accounts  for  the  smaller  wage. 

Q.  Now,  of  the  fifty-three  women  in  your  employ  last  week  how  many 
received  $5.00  per  week?  A.  There  were  four. 

Q.  And  how  many  received  less  than  $6.00  a week?  A.  Y’ell,  I should 
presume  there  was  about  twelve. 

Q.  And  how  many  received  $7.00,  between  $7.00  and  $6.00?  A.  The  ma- 
jority of  them. 

Q.  The  majority  of  them  received  between  $6.00  and  $7.00?  A.  \es,  we 
have  different  classes'  of  labor  up  there ; it  is  all  foreign,  and  we  have  to  work 
them  a little  different.  If  we  were  to  work  American  help,  why,  they  would 
no  doubt  earn  more  money.  This  class  of  help  is  more  or  less  ignorant,  Polish 
and  Russian,  I would  say  that  most  of  them  are  married  women. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Has  the  Labor  Onion  a witness  present? 

(A  man  arises  back  in  the  audience.) 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


661 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  come  forward?  Just  bring  a chair  up 
and  be  sworn. 

Mr.  Willis  E.  Harvey’s  Testimony. 

WILLIS  E.  HARVEY,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Willis  E.  Harvey. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Broom-maker. 

Q.  Where  are  you  employed?  A.  I am  business  agent  at  the  present 
time;  I used  to  work  for  the  Enterprise  Broom  Company. 

Q.  Business  agent  of  what?  A.  Local  29,  International  Broom  Makers’ 
Union. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  United  States  Broom  and  Brush  Company 
factory?  A.  Why,  somewhat,  yes,  sir. 

I Q.  Have  you  anything  to  tell  this  Committee  regarding  the  conditions  as 
you  have  found  them  at  that  factory?  A.  Why,  somewhat,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  have  you  to  say  regarding  the  conditions,  as  you  found  them 
there?  A.  Well,  I haven’t  been  in  the  factory  myself  for  several  years,  but 
when  I was  there  the  wages  were  rather  low  for  the  lady  end  of  it. 

Q.  Your  obsrvation  extends  back  how  far,  two  years?  A.  Yes,  to  the 
! inception  of  the  plant. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  conditions  there  as  they  exist  at  the  present  time? 
A.  No,  sir;  not  at  the  present  time. 

Q.  The  Committee,  Mr.  Harvey,  will  be  glad  to  get  any  information  that 
you  may  have  and  want  to  impart.  A.  Well,  of  course,  our  day’s  wages  is 
$3.50  a day,  and,  as  I understand  it,  they  work  on  the  piece  work ; we  pay 
I 35  cents  for  certain  kind  of  brooms,  and  Mr.  Jones  pays  17 ; that  is  almost  50 
I'  per  cent  in  wages. 

Q.  By  “we”  I understand  3'ou  mean  the  Union,  that  is,  the  Union  scale? 

I A.  The  Union  scale,  yes. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  brooms  made  in  Chicago  are  made  by  union 
t labor?  A.  Well,  75  per  cent. 

IQ.  In  your  Union  have  j'ou  both  men  and  women  workers?  A.  No. 

Q.  That  applies  only  to  the  men?  A.  To  the  men  only. 

Q.  Is  there  any  Union  of  women  broom-makers?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  None  at  all.  A.  No,  sir,  none  at  all. 

I Q.  Have  you  tried  to  interest  the  women  in  your  Union?  A.  Some,  a 
;jj  few  years  ago,  but  not  recently. 

I Q.  Then  the  women  labor  in  this  case  is  used  to  compete  with  Union 
;|  labor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  women  are  paid,  as  a rule,  50  per  cent  less  than  the  Union 
' men  are  paid  for  doing  the  same  kind  of  work?  A.  , I should  judge  some  of 
,!  the  higher  grade  brooms  that  there  would  not  be  very  much  difference  in. 

! Q.  What  did  you  say  was  the  average  wage,  or  what  is  the  minimum  wage 
of  the  Union  broom-makers  per  week?  A.  Well,  on  piece  work,  I could  not 
answer  as  to  the  minimum. 

Q.  What  would  you  call  the  average  wage  under  the  piece  system?  A. 
It  would  be  about  $19.00. 

Q.  What  is  the  minimum  on  a salary?  A.  Three  and  a half. 

Q.  Three  and  a half  a day?  A.  Yes,  sir;  nine  hours’  work. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  any  question  that  j'ou  would  like  to 
ask  the  witness.  Senator? 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  McLEAN. 

SENATOR  McLEAN : You  were  employed  at  one  time  by  Mr,  Jones,  were 
you  not?  A,  Yes,  sir, 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  I think  that  is  three  and  a half  years 
ago,  I can’t  recall  now. 

Q.  In  what  capacity  were  you  employed  at  that  time?  A.  Foreman. 

Q.  How  long  is  it  since  you  visited  the  establishment?  A.  I haven’t 
been  through  the  establishment  of  Mr.  Jones. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  the  conditions  existing  there  at  the 
present  time?  A.  No,  except  that  I get  my  information  from  people  that 
have  quit  there. 

Q.  Were  complaints  made  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  employes  that  had  quit  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  wage  paid  to  Union  broom-makers,  is  that  an  established  wage 
throughout  the  state?  A.  No,  it  would  not  be  throughout  the  State,  it  applies 
to  our  local  only. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  the  Union  employs  very  few  women  laborers  in 
that  class  of  work,  isn’t  that  true?  A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  None  whatever?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  if  the  broom-maker,  the  male  broom  maker  in  Mr.  Jones’ 
establishment  was  making  $15.00  a w^eek,  you  would  say  that  that  is  a pretty 
good  wage,  wouldn’t  you,  in  that  class  of  work,  as  compared  with  the  Union? 
A.  1 w'ould  not,  no. 

Q.  The  Union  scale  for  piece  work,  you  think,  would  average  about  S19.00? 
A.  It  would  average  about  $19.00. 

Q.  Piece  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  brooms  here  are  made  by  piece  work?  A. 
All  of  them  so  far  as  I know. 

SENATOR  McLEAN ; That  is  all. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Mr.  Jones  spoke  about  prison-made  brooms;  what 
proportion  are  made  in  prison,  if  you  know?  A.  That  I could  not  say. 

Q.  Have  you  no  idea?  A.  I have  not  much  of  an  idea;  I never  gave  it 
a thought. 

Q.  In  most  of  our  institutions,  take  for  instance,  Chester,  they  used  to 
have  a stove  foundry,  brick  factory  and  bolt  works,  and  all  those  things.  It 
has  all  been  abolished,  and  they  make  nothing  except  perhaps  crushed  rock; 
now'  take,  for  instance,  Chester,  suppose  they  were  to  make  brooms  there,  or 
at  any  other  institution,  would  they  sell  those  brooms  to  the  trade  any  cheaper 
than  these  you  manufacture?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  you  see  you  are  up  against  competition  of  the  worst  kind?  A.  ’’l  es, 
sir. 

Q.  W'hat  would  you  recommend  then,  would  you  recommend  them  to  cease 
manufacturing  in  institutions  of  this  kind  and  selling  their  products  on  the 
open  market,  or  the  man  on  the  outside  cease  making  them  ? A.  Cease  in  the 
insttiutions  the  first  thing. 

Q.  The  thing  is  to  cease  manufacturing  in  such  institutions,  in  my  judg- 
ment; isn’t  that  right?  A.  That  is  right.  The  institutions  of  the  City  of 
Chicago,  they  ship  them  here  from  everj'where,  and  also  every  institution  here 
of  our  own  ; in  lots  of  cases,  they  sell  brooms  at  a dollar  a dozen  cheaper  than 
any  other  manufacturer. 

Q.  That  is  what  I am  trying  to  get  at.  A.  My  position  at  the  present 
time  is  calling  on  all  retail  stores  in  Chicago,  and  of  course  I see  the  bills  and 
how  they  are  shipped  in,  and  I find  that  certain  persons  sell  them  lots  of  times 
a dollar  a dozen  less  for  the  same  grade. 

Q.  A man  goes  and  buys  a broom  and  he  don’t  pay  any  attention  whether 
it  is  prison-made  goods  or  scab  goods  or  anything  else,  if  he  wants  it?  A.  Me 
try  to  educate  them  all  to  buy  our  kind. 

Q.  We  have  in  the  General  Assembly  a bill  on  the  minimum  wage  scale 
for  women.  Our  business  is  to  look  after  the  women  ; what  would  you  think, 
what  would  you  judge  a woman  or  girl  in  Chicago  could  live  and  live  com- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


663 


fortably  for  and  have  a little  amusement  and  wear  good  clothes  and  enjoy  life 
j'  as  a human  being  should  enjoy  it,  what  would  you  think?  A.  Ten  dollars  a 
j week. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Now,  Mr.  Jones,  what  do  you  think  about  that? 

I MR.  JONES:  I don’t  think  with  the  class  of  labor  we  have  got,  we  could 

I not  pay  it ; they  don’t  earn  it.  I know  that  from  the  wage  we  are  paying  and 
the  class  of  help  we  have  that  they  are  able  to  live  very  nicely  and  wear  good 
clothes  and  live  respectably. 

SENATOR  McLEAN : Mr.  Harvey,  don’t  you  know  there  are  many 
women  employed  today  in  the  broom  manufacturing  business  in  this  city?  A. 

I Sorting  women. 

Q.  Don’t  they  run  the  machines  too?  A.  Not  outside  of  Mr.  Jones’  place, 
i Q.  You  know  as  a matter  of  fact  that  LMion  men  have  to  be  experienced 
:!  machine  men?  A.  Yes,  they  have  to  serve  an  apprenticeship  of  two  years. 

Q.  You  also  know  that  employes  in  Mr.  Jones’  shop  are  what  would  be 

■ termed  raw  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  it  looks  to  me  like  it  is  taking  advantage 

1 of  a person,  because  they  have  just  landed  in  this  country  and  are  unable  to 

talk. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  a good  thing  to  give  people  employment,  don’t  you?  A. 
[ do. 

Q.  You  would  not  say  that  a manufacturer  in  Mr.  Jones’  position  could 
1 afford  to  pay  raw  workers  the  same  amount  that  he  could  afford  to  pay  ex- 

1 perienced  men  and  women,  do  you?.  A.  No,  he  could  not. 

' Q.  So,  if  Mr.  Jones  pays  these  new  women,  these  Polish  women,  much 
? less  than  he  would  pay  the  experienced  men  and  women,  you  would  say  that 
i was  a good  thing,  rvouldn’t  3'ou,  in  order  to  give  them  employment?  A.  This 

j is  the  way : you  take  a big  girl,  you  pick  a girl  up  and  bring  her  into  a broom 

1 factory  and  put  her  on  a broom  machine  at  so  much  per  dozen ; she  would  do 
j!  well  if  she  tied  about  a dozen  the  first  day,  and  34  or  35  cents,  that  is  what  she 

J would  receive  for  that  day’s  work,  but  she  would  still  put  in  her  entire  time, 

f That  is  pretty  hard  work;  that  will  break  a woman  down  in  three  or  four 
I years. 

■ SENATOR  BEALL;  Do  you  mean  running  a machine  will  break  a woman 
I down?  A.  Yes,  and  it  will  break  me  down,  too. 

j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Are  those  heavy  machines?  A.  Brooms  are  not 
i so  heavy ; the^^  are  handled  by  power,  but  you  put  a woman  making  those  heavy 
t brooms,  weighing  from  thirty  to  sometimes  fifty-five  pounds  to  the  dozen,  that’s 
' about  all  that  I can  do ; that  used  to  keep  me  guessing. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA ; As  I understand  it  then,  Mr.  Harvey,  your  con- 
! tention  is  this : that  the  employment  of  women  to  run  these  machines  in  in  com- 
i petitition  with  the  men,  and  that  the  w’omen  are  paid  less  than  the  men?  A. 
Yes. 

; SENATOR  McLEAN  ; I would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Jones  wdiat  percentage  of 
the  women  in  the  shop  are  now  working  on  machines? 

' MR.  JONES:  Not  to  exceed  10  per  cent 

Q.  Ten  per  cent  of  the  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

A.  And  the  women  that  are  running  the  machines  are  big,  strong  women, 
are  they?  A.  They  are  women  that  are  accustomed  to  farm  work. 

j Q.  Where  do  you  obtain  these  women  that  work  in  your  shop,  how'  do 

] you  get  them?  A.  They  come  there  and  apply  for  work. 

Q.  Are  they  women  that  at  one  part  of  the  season  work  out  in  the  fields? 
A.  At  times. 

Q.  What  fields  are  they  employed  in?  A.  Truck  gardens. 

SENATOR  .McLEAN ; Mr.  Harvey,  I would  like  to  get  straightened  out 
I on  this  machine  proposition.  I have  seen  a good  many  machines  operated  and 
I I want  to  ask  you  what  hard  work  these  is  about  running  a machine.  There 
is  no  heavy  lifting  or  anything  of  that  sort,  is  there? 

1 MR.  HARVEY  : Well,  it  is  a pretty  heavy  drag  all  day. 

j SENATOR  McLEAN  ; They  stand  behind  the  machine  and  run  the  broom 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


through  as  the  sewer  sews  the  broom?  A.  No,  you  have  got  the  wrong  idea 
there. 

Q.  What?  A.  You  have  got  the  wrong  idea  there;  this  machine  revolves 
around  and  ties  the  broom  on  the  handle. 

Q.  There  is  nothing  for  the  operator  to  lift  other  tlran  the  broom,  is  there? 
A.  Well,  you  lift  about,  oh,  say,  seven  or  eight  dozen  forty-five  or  fifty-pound 
brooms,  and  believe  me,  you  have  done  a day’s  work. 

Q.  Brooms  don’t  weigh  forty-five  or  fifty  pounds  apiece,  do  they?  A.  No, 
a dozen. 

Q.  They  don’t  handle  a dozen  at  all?  A.  No,  they  handle  them  singly. 

Q.  That  is  all  they  have  to  do?  A.  There  is  a strain  on  the  back  in  doing 
it. 

Q.  In  putting  a broom  in  and  taking  it  out?  A.  No,  just  wiring.  You 
understand  how  it  is  tied?  Take  what  corn  you  kave  and  you  run  it  onto  the 
handle,  and  that  is  a strain  to  move  that  corn  even  in  a certain  place,  and  then 
you  take  some  more,  that’s  another  strain. 

SENATOR  McLEAN : I would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Jones  if  any  women  in  his 
shop  make  those  forty  or  fifty-pound  brooms? 

MR.  JONES;  They  don’t. 

Q.  That  is  left  for  the  men,  is  it?  A.  Yes. 

Prof.  Graham  Taylor’s  Testimony. 

GRAHAM  TAYLOR,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  Graham  Taylor. 

Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  Teacher. 

Q.  At  what  institution?  A.  I am  president  of  the  Chicago  School  of 
Civics  and  Philanthropy. 

Q.  Are  you  connected  with  an}-  Chicago  institution  other  than  that?  A. 
Yes,  I have  been  resident  warden  for  nineteen  years  in  the  tenement  district. 

Q.  How  many  years  have  you  given  to  the  study  of  social  problems?  A. 
Well,  I am  just  rounding  out  my  twenty-one  years  in  Chicago;  I had  about 
twelve  and  a half  years’  experience  in  Bradford,  Conn.,  in  the  down-town  dis- 
trict somewhat  similar  to  the  one  that  I now  live  in. 

Q.  You  had  some  connection,  Professor,  with  the  Vice  Commission  in 
Chicago?  A.  Yes,  I was  a member  of  the  Vice  Commission. 

Q.  And  you  were  active  in  the  vice  investigation?  A.  Yes,  I was. 

Q.  What  other  investigations,  if  an}-,  have  you  been  interested  in?  A. 
Well,  I have  had  occasion  to  look  into  the  reasons  for  immorality  of  quite  a 
large  number  of  young  girls  in  families  whose  troubles  had  been  brought  to 
my  attention  and  also  to  try  to  check  the  exploitation  of  young  girls  and  women 
by  men  and  women  who  were  engaged  in  the  professional  business  of  vice,  and 
I have  been  behind  the  prosecutions  of  a number  of  such  people,  although  I 
have  not  always  appeared  in  public,  because  it  was  not  necessary. 

Q.  Have  you  found.  Professor,  that  there  is  either  a direct  or  an  indirect 
connection  between  low  wages  and  vice?  A.  W’ell,  there  is  both;  both  direct 
and  indirect. 

Q.  And  for  the  information  of  this  Committee,  Professor,  would  you  mind 
making  a statement  covering  your  experience  and  observations  along  the  line 
of  this  inquiry?  A.  I would  be  very  glad  to.  I wish  to  preface  that  state- 
ment by  the  assurance  that  I have  no  theory  to  defend,  or  no  self-defense  to 
make. 

Q.  You  are  not  on  trial.  Professor;  you  are  merely  here  as  a witness.  A. 
I have  published  some  things  over  my  own  name  for  which  I will  stand,  and 
I have  subscribed  to  other  things,  as  for  instance,  the  Vice  Commission  report 
of  the  City  of  Chicago,  for  which  I will  also  stand ; but  the  statement  that  I 
will  make  will  deal  only  \\-ith  such  ascertained  facts  as  seem  to  be  authenticated 
or  sufficiently  attested  to  be  worthy  of  credence.  And  with  the  methods  of 
getting  at  those  facts  and  readily  interpreting  them,  I have  learned  that  the 
evidence  so-called  or  the  accounts  of  those  given  by  the  girls  and  women  whom 
I have  personally  questioned  in  and  outside  of  the  \ ice  Commission,  or  of  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


665 


madams  of  these  houses  with  whom  I have  frequently  conferred,  need  verifi- 
cation, and  are  extremely  uncertain.  I also  find  that  you  must  extend  your 
inquiry  far  more  widely  than  at  first  seems  to  be  necessary,  as  the  comparatively 
simple  and  conclusive  statements  that  are  first  given  you  require  other  state- 
ments and  facts  and  figures  to  readily  interpret  them.  Now,  I shall  be  glad  to 
be  interrupted  and  be  of  all  the  service  to  the  Committee  that  I can.  In  the 
first  place,  1 want  to  give  you  the  basis  of  my  opinions.  I had  most  to  do  in 
the  Vice  Commission,  with  the  gathering  and  presentation  of  the  facts  con- 
tained in  the  chapter,  four  on  the  sources  of  the  supply  of  victims  of  the  vice. 
In  the  course  of  that  investigation,  which  lasted  over  a year,  and  in  which  I 
was  almost  continuously  interested,  as  a volunteer,  of  course,  I heard  the  story 
of  no  less  than  twenty-four  hundred  and  twenty  women  and  girls  implicated 
more  or  less  in  this  social  evil,  who  passed  under  my  review.  Of  those  twenty- 
four  hundred  and  twenty  women  and  girls,  five  were  found  in  amusement  parks 
under  private  management ; that  is,  the  five  that  were  inquired  of ; forty  were 
found  in  dance-halls ; forty-nine  were  found  in  saloons  and  on  the  streets ; fif- 
teen were  found  in  flats  and  assignation  hotels;  nineteen  were  found  in  houses 
of  prostitution,  and  thirty  were  found  in  houses  of  prostitution  of  the  more 
expensive  type;  fifty-one  were  delinquent  girls  investigated  by  the  Juvenile 
Protective  Association ; a hundred  and  seventy-nine  were  girls  whose  careers 
both  before  and  after  their  trouble  were  studied  intensively  for  a period  of 
nearly  two  years  b}'  the  department  of  social  investigation  of  the  Chicago 
School  of  Civics  and  Philanthropy,  the  report  of  which  was  made  to  the  Russell 
Sage  Foundation,  and  in  addition  to  those  one  hundred  and  seventy-nine,  we 
looked  at  the  records  of  twenty-two  hundred  and  forty-one  cases  recorded  on 
the  books  of  the  State  Reform  School  for  Girls,  the  State  School  for  Girls ; cases 
committed  to  the  custody  of  that  school  from  Cook  County.  Of  course  you  will 
understand  that  the  names  of  these  parties  were  suppressed,  and  in  most  of  the 
cases  were  absolutely  unknown  to  me  or  any  other  of  the  inquirers,  and  there  is 
absolutely  no  truth  to  the  name,  except  the  key  to  the  Vice  Commission  report, 
which  we  cannot  surrender,  because  we  got  this  testimony  or  evidence,  these 
life  stories  under  the  seal  of  confidence,  and  it  would  be  the  most  outrageous 
breach  of  confidence  to  surrender  that  key.  Now,  I should  like  to  state  the 
reference  made  to  economic  causes  by  these  various  groups,  for  instance,  the 
thirty  inmates  of  the  more  high-priced  open  houses  of  prostitution  in  the 
former  red-light  district  of  the  south  side.  Of  the  thirty  of  those  young  women, 
eleven  on  their  own  account  referred  to  their  wages,  eleven  out  of  the  thirty; 
of  the  forty  that  were  interviewed  in  dance-halls,  eight  referred  to  their  eco- 
nomic conditions;  of  the  forty-nine  who  were  found  on  the  streets,  thirteen 
alluded  to  their  wages.  The  other  reasons  that  were  given  were  very  many, 
and  they  will  be  referred  to  later.  Now,  I have  just  received  from  New  York 
the  first  report  on  the  Rockefeller  investigation ; it  came  from  the  publisher 
only  on  Fridaj'.  “The  Power  of  Social  Hidden  Commercialized  Prostitution  in 
New'  York  City,”  the  first  of  four  volumes  published  by  the  Century  Company. 
This  report  is  written  by  two  persons ; George  J.  Kneeland,  who  was  an  investi- 
gator for  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission,  and  in  whose  judgment  I have  the  ut- 
most confidence  after  having  worked  with  him  for  a year  and  a half,  and  Cath- 
erine Bement  Davis,  the  superintendent  of  the  Bedford  Reformatory  for  Girls,  a 
woman  in  New  York  City,  than  whom  there  is  no  more  capable  person  at  the 
head  of  any  reformatory  for  girls  or  women  in  the  United  States  or  anywhere 
else,  so  far  as  I know,  and  these  two  reports  in  this  volume,  are  as  carefully,  cau- 
tiously and  fearlessly  and  frankly  presented  and  interpreted  as  any  of  my  experi- 
ence with  statistics  that  I have  ever  seen.  It  is  an  absolutely  square  piece  of  sta- 
tistical work,  and  it  is  very  interesting  to  compare  or  to  contrast  their  conclusions 
on  the  economic  aspects  of  these  women’s  cases  with  those  that  we  have  arrived 
at  here  in  Chicago.  There  were  eleven  hundred  and  six  cases  reported  in  New 
York;  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  of  the  eleven  hundred  and  six,  one  hundred 
and  thirty-nine  only  referred  to  their  economic  conditions.  That  is,  twelve  per 
cent  of  the  eleven  hundred  and  six.  Now,  they  would  naturally  put  the  most 
favorable  explanation  of  their  entrance  into  a life  of-  immorality,  and  one  of 
the  most  natural  explanations  would  be  their  economic  necessities,  and  yet  only 
a hundred  and  thirty-nine  out  of  the  eleven  hundred  and  six  even  alluded  to 
their  economic  necessities  or  their  wages.  Now,  of  these  eleven  hundred  and 
six,  two  hundred  and  seventy-nine  w'ere  the  cases  of  the  Bedford  Reformatory 
girls  studied  verj'  deliberately  by  personal  interviews  and  all  sorts  of  records 
by  Catherine  Bement  Davis.  These  two  hundred  and  seventy-nine  girls,  or 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


young  women,  gave  six  hundred  and  seventy-one  reasons  for  being  what  they 
were;  of  the  two  hundred  and  seventy-nine  girls  accounting  for  their  im- 
moralit}',  or  for  their  being  victimized  by  the  immoralities  of  others,  nineteen 
only'  alluded  to  their  economic  condition  or  their  wages ; nineteen  out  of  two 
hundred  and  seventy-nine.  Five  of  them  said  that  they  could  not  support  them- 
selves ; one  said  that  she  could  not  support  herself  and  her  children  ; thirteen 
said  that  they'  could  not  find  work.  Now,  in  looking  over  the  report,  I found 
five  more  that  probably  ought  to  be  added  to  those  nineteen,  because  they  said 
the  poverty  of  the  family  drove  them  or  led  them  into  trouble.  That  would 
make  at  most  twenty-four  out  of  two  hundred  and  seventy-nine,  who,  in  account- 
ing for  their  conditions,  referred  to  wages  or  economic  reasons.  Xow,  the  bal- 
ance of  the  eleven  hundred  and  six,  about  nine  hundred  or  so  were  found  on 
the  streets,  of  those,  two  hundred  and  thirty'-six  gave  economic  reasons  out  of 
about  nine  hundred.  Sixty-seven  said  that  they  could  not  support  themselves; 
thirty-seven  said  that  they  could  not  support  themselves  and  children,  and  sixty- 
said  that  they  could  not  find  work.  It  is  rather  interesting,  too,  to  go  beyond 
this  and  see  when  or  how  these  girls  account  for  their  first  immoral  experience. 
1 hirty'-eight  per  cent  of  them  said  it  was  because  of  misplaced  affection;  twenty 
per  cent  of  them  said  that  it  had  something  to  do  with  economic  conditions; 
twenty-two  per  cent  of  them  said  that  force  was  used.  That  is  rather  illuminat- 
ing. It  is  a very  authentic  study  of  statistics.  Xow,  gentlemen,  I will  call 
your  attention  to  the  fact  that  while  at  most,  twenty-four  of  the  two  hundred 
and  seventy-nine  of  these  Bedford  Reformatory  girls  refer  to  their  economic 
condition,  three  hundred  and  six  of  them  referred  to  bad  family  conditions; 
fifteen  of  them  to  immoral  or  bad  parents;  thirty-nine  to  incompatibility  of 
their  homes,  a hundred  and  sixty-six  had  no  father  or  mother,  or  neither ; ten 
suffered,  they  said,  on  account  of  themselves  from  overindulgence;  thirty-five 
from  too  strict  home  discipline,  six  were  turned  out  of  doors.  Of  these  two 
hundred  and  seventy-nine,  twenty-nine  per  cent  were  subnormal;  there  was 
something  wrong  about  them;  they  weren’t  whole;  they*  were  defective;  some 
of  them  were  actually  insane.  Some  were  feeble-minded,  others  had  retarded 
development,  some  being  of  twenty  years  of  age  who  had. not  the  development 
of  eleven,  sometimes  not  the  development  of  a child  of  eight,  and  that  accords 
with  my  experience  that  a very  large  percentage  of  the  women  found  in  pro- 
fessional prostitution  are  below  the  normal,  in  other  words  are  subnormal,  and 
they  have  been  taken  advantage  of.  It  is  not  because,  in  the  first  instance,  they 
were  so  bad,  but  because  they  were  weak,  and  some  person  stronger  than  they, 
physically  or  mentally,  overpowered  them  and  they  fell  by  their  own  inherent 
weakness.  Fifty-five  of  these  two  hundred  and  seventy-nine  were  supposed  to 
be  where  they  were  from  marital  infelicity;  two  hundred  and  ninety-one  gave 
entirely  personal  reasons;  seventy-five  of  them  said  it -was  due  to  bad  company; 
forty-eight  to  their  seeking  pleasure ; thirty-eight  money  had  something  to  do 
with  it;  seventeen  of  tlie  thirty-eight,  I mention  seventeen  additional,  said  it 
was  “easy  money”  they  wanted,  twenty  hated  work ; thirteen  attributed  it 
directly  to  public  dances ; and  ten  to  no  sex  instruction.  Miss  Davis  summed 
up- thus;  “Granted,  that  the  data  on  the  wage  relation  to  vice  are  reliable, 
there  would  seem  to  be  no  indication  of  real  economic  pressure,  as  the  reason 
for  entering  an  immoral  life.”  That  is,  iMiss  Davis  comes  in  and  states  it  a 
little  more  strongly  than  I would  state  it  myself.  X'ow,  of  the  women  that  are 
considered,  Kneeland  finds  that  a hundred  and  sixtv-eight  of  them  attributed 
their  downfall  to  family  infelicities;  a hundred  and  fifteen  to  marital  infeli- 
cities; four  hundred  and  ninety-two  to  personal,  purely  personal  reasons.  I 
think  that  the  Kneeland  statistics  corroborate  the  Chicago  statistics  very  re- 
markablv,  although  the  Chicago  statistics  put  up  the  economic  reasons  a grade  or 
two  higher  than  the  Xew  York  statistics,  as  given  by  Kneeland.  I rated  the 
occasions  for  accounting  for  the  immorality  of  the  women  and  girls  that  I 
myself  accounted  for,  that  I myself  questioned  about  in  this  order:  First, 
the  failure  of  family  life,  parental  failure;  secondly,  the  exploitation  of  the 
innocent  instinct  for  amusement,  the  absolute  decoy  and  trap  on  the  part 
of  some  of  these  privately  owned  recreation  parks  and  especially  the  dance 
halls  with  bar  permits,  which  are  absolutely  the  tap  root,  and,  in  my  judg- 
ment, next  to  the  faulty  family  life  the  cause  of  the  downfall  of  most  girls. 
All  yOTi  have  to  do  is  to  do  what  we  do — go  around  and  sit  in  dance  halls  on 
Saturday  night  from  1 o’clock  to  3 in  the  morning,  and  if  it  would  not  bring 
any  man  of  conscience  or  common  decency  to  his  senses  on  the  question 
of  bar  permits  and  dance  halls,  then  I don’t  know  what  I am  talking  about. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


667 


It  is  simply  infamous.  All  the  saloons  are  closed  at  1 o'clock  and  then  all 
the  drinkers  are  turned  out  to  continue  their  drinking  until  3 o’clock  in  the 
dance  halls,  to  come  in  contact  with  unsuspecting  girls,  and  taking  them 
home.  It  is  a perfect  outrage,  1 say,  from  one  end  of  the  city  to  the  other, 
and  this  Committee  could  hot  do  a greater  public  service  than  to  lay  the 
axe  right  at  the  root. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Let  me  ask  you  a question:  I have  been  around 
considerable  in  Chicago,  and  1 agree  very  much  with  some  of  the  things 
you  say;  would  you  recommend  the  abolishment  of  these  saloons  and  wine 
rooms  connected  with  these  dance  houses?  A.  1 recommend  that  the 
, Committee  should  advise  the  abolition  of  bar  permits  for  public  dances,  and 
1 would  recommend  the  establishment  of  municipal  dance  halls  under  strict 
supervision.  I have  j'et  to  see  any  of  these  abuses  come  from  the  dance 
halls  in  the  recreation  centers  under  the  Park  Commission  managements  of 
Chicago.  That  is  one  of  the  best  investments  we  ever  made  in  the  city. 
Now,  I have  only  another  thing  or  two  to  say:  I call  attention  to  the  order 
of  the  causes  of,  or  the  occasions  for  the  downfall  of  girls  stated  by  the 
City  Council  Committee,  which  is  another  verification  of  the  positions  we 
have  taken  here.  The  source  the  Council  Committee  found  back  of  com- 
mercialized vice  and  partly  accounting  for  it  was  not  caused  by  poverty, 
though  with  this  I thoroughly  agree  that  sometimes  poverty  strikes  a hard 
blow  at  all  decencies  where  sanitary  or  proper  social  provisions  do  not  exist 
in  the  tenement  houses.  The  overcrowding  of  tenement  houses  and  the 
taking  of  men  boarders  by  poor  tenement  families,  especially  among  the 
foreign  people,  is  the  cause  of  no  end  of  tragedy  and  injustice.  Of  course, 
i there  the  wage  comes  in,  but  it  is  the  wage  of  the  parents  and  not  always 
the  wage  of  the  girls.  A great  deal  more  ought  to  be  made,  if  you  are  .going 
. ; to  run  the  thing  so  largely  in  the  direction  of  the  economic  wage,  it  ought 
r to  be  the  wage  of  the  farni^^  and  not  only  the  wage  of  the  supposed  victim 
I or  person  who  may  be  victimized.  Lack  of  home  care  and  parental  training, 
' hasty  marriages,  public  dance  halls,  amusements,  bad  literature,  bad  pic- 
: tures,  songs — these  infernal  songs  that  they  have  in  these  dance  halls,  open 
I'  houses  of  ill-fame  as  the  market  of  vice  and  as  a source  of  remuneration  to 
•j  the  procurer,  young  girls  thrown  prematurely  into  the  working  world. 

I SENATOR  TOSSEY : As  I understand  you.  Professor,  you  put  the 

ii  sale  of  liquor  at  these  dance  halls  as  one  of  the  principal  causes?  A.  Yes, 

1 ' it  is,  and  bar  permits. 

ij  Q.  And  bar  permits?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at  public  dances. 

:{  C.  Who  is  behind  these  bar  permits?  A.  Well,  sometimes  it  is  the 
r.  owner  of  the  hall  and  sometimes  it  is  the  club  that  rents  the  hall,  and  when 
a complaint  is  made  to  the  city  authorities  they  say,  “Why,  this  is  a repu- 
(ii  table  club,  and  they  have  the  same  right  there  that  they  would  have  in  their 
?![  private  homes,”^  but  if  you  inquire  into  the  reputation  of  the  club  you  will 
1 find  some  mighty  disreputable  clubs  applying  for  permits  under  the  guise 
of  aid  societies;  every  last  one  of  them  is  an  aid  society  when  they  want  a 
■1  bar  permit  for  a dance;  to  aid  themselves,  that  is  all  the  aid  there  is  to  it. 
j Q.  Do  they  ever  have  to  furnish  any  bond  or  financial  backing,  or 
;;  anything  of  that  kind?  A.  No,  and  in  some  dance  halls  the  proprietors 

■ are  decent  enou.gh.  I know  of  one  in  my  neighborhood  who  simply  cannot 
stay  up  all  night  himself,  and  if  he  goes  home,  things  go  wrong,  and  I have 
known  him  in  the  last  three  years  to  hire  a man  at  $5.00  a night  to  keep 
order  and  have  drunken  men  put  out,  and  drunken  men  applyin.g  for  adrais- 

' sion  forbidden  to  enter.  By  the  way,  at  1 o’clock,  I forgot  to  say,  the  admis- 
sion  is  taken  off,  just  when  it  ought  to  be  kept  on.  Then  you  can  come  in 
free  and  go  on  drinking  to  3 o’clock. 

! Q.  There  is  some  evidence  before  this  Committee  that  showed  that  the 
; breweries  rented  out  these  houses  of  ill-fame  or  sub-leased  them  to  madams. 
i|  A.  I have  no  evidence  on  that,  and  I don’t  know. 

j'  Q.  You  don’t  know  about  that?  A.  I don’t  know,  but  I know  that 
Ij  breweries  in  most  localities  take  leases  for  the  saloons.  I have  run  up 

■ against  that  trying  to  get  bad  saloons  out  with  the  help  of  better  saloon- 
I keepers,  and  I had  no  means  of  classifying  the  saloonkeepers  in  with  the 
1 brewers,  and  I have  found  out  that  many  saloonkeepers  protest  against  the 
1 way  in  which  other  saloons  are  run.  On  the  other  hand,  the  brewers’  hand- 


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book  and  the  brewers’  congress  that  was  held  here  in  the  city  in  a most 
determined  way  denounced  the  brewers’  connection  with  them  and  any 
brewers  who  did  have  connection  with  them,  but  that  was  simply  the  action 
of  their  congress,  and  their  very  able  reports,  the  hand-book  reports,  that 
they  get  out  every  year,  the  brewers’  hand-book,  is  a remarkable  pro- 
duction. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  they  established  a one-for-all  rule?  A. 
Yes,  but  I don’t  think  that  they  can  control  their  own  constituents. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  There  are  many  who  are  against  local  option 
down  in  the  State.  They  attribute  the  owning  by  the  brewers'of  a large 
number  of  saloons  and  putting  irresponsible  men  in  charge  of  those  saloons 
at  high  prices  and  running  what  might  be  called  “doggeries” — A.  Yes,  I 
have  had  experience  with  one  or  two  such  cases,  but  not  enough  to  pass 
any  judgment  on  it. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  It  might  be  the  cause  of  this  local  option 
wave  that  has  been  sweeping  over  the  State?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Professor,  there  is  one  thing  we  have  before 
us,  and  it  is  a very  serious  question,  and  that  is  the  bill  that  is  before  the 
General  Assembly  which  comes  up,  I think,  on  \\'ednesday.  A.  Do  you 
mean  the  Minimum  Wage  Bill? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Yes.  A.  I am  glad  that  I can  speak  on  that 
subject. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Now,  what  do  you  think  a girl  can  live  on  and 
pay  her  board  and  dress  decently  and  get  along  in  this  world  with;  what 
amount  do  you  think  would  be  fair  now?  A.  Now,  I rather  anticipated 
that  question,  and  I think  that  before  you  can  answer  that  question  suc- 
cessfully you  have  got  to  make  inquiries  along  some  such  lines  as  this: 
You  have  got  to  ask  the  age  of  the  girl;  her  school  training;  her  mental 
development;  her  parental  background;  her  occupation;  her  hours  of  work; 
whether  she  is  an  apprentice  or  a regular  employe;  what  is  the  source  of 
her  support  if  she  is  an  apprentice  or  is  not  when  she  is  unemnloyed; 
whether  she  is  living  at  home  or  contributing  to  the  support  of  the  family, 
and  what  use  is  made  of  her  wages:  whether  she  is  to  give  them  all  to  her 
mother  and  father,  for  the  support  of  the  younger  children;  whether  she 
has  had  any  previous  deprivations,  necessary  to  make  her  more  or  less  of 
a spendthrift;  what  the  sex  standards  of  her  associates  are;  what  kind  of 
recreation  she  enjoys  and  are  open  to  her,  and  if  she  has  fallen  into  vice 
what  she  spends  the  money  that  she  earns  for,  whether  for  necessities  or 
luxuries,  or  to  help  her  family,  or  to  buy  finery.  Now,  I think  all  those 
things  have  to  be  gone  into  before  you  can  answer  that  question 
successfully. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  The  point  is  this:  this  bill  calls  for,  and  there 
will  be  a commission  formed  of  three,  and  the^-  will  fix  that  part  of  it;  the 
bill  now  calls  for  $7.50  a week.  Of  course,  it  provides  for  an  apprentice- 
ship and  will  probably  start  girls  off  with,  say,  six  months  at  a certain 
wage,  but  after  they  had  been  there  a certain  time  the  minimum  should  he 
$7.50,  or  whatever  the  bill  calls  for.  A.  Whether  the  girl  lives  at  home 
or  not? 

Q.  I think  a girl  living  at  home  ought  to  have  just  as  much  as  the 
girl  who  don’t  live  at  home.  A.  I mean  during  her  apprenticeship. 

Q.  Yes,  or  at  any  time,  so  far  as  that  is  concerned.  A.  Of  course, 
you  can’t  expect  an  emploj^er  to  give  as  much  to  a girl  that  lives  at  home. 

Q.  She  starts  off  with  a sliding  scale  and  she  works  up  during  her 
apprenticeship  of,  say,  six  months,  or  something  like  that,  until  she  re- 
ceives the  minimum  wage  of  $7.50.  Now,  a girl  living  at  home  is  worth 
just  as  much  to  the  employer  as  if  she  had  to  pay  her  board;  she  is  giving 
value  received,  and  what  we  are  trying  to  get  at  is  the  minimum  scale; 
now,  what  do  you  think  a girl  can  live  on  and  live  comfortably,  no  extras, 
dress  comfortably,  go  to  a show  once  in  a while  and  have  amusements,  a 
nice,, clean  girl — what  do  you  think  would  be  a fair  rate  to  start  her  in  at? 
The  amount  up  to  the  minimum  wage  amount  is  liable  to  be  changed  at 
any  time  by  this  Commission;  this  Commission  will  have  the  power  and 
will  have  the  right  to  go  into  factories  and  talk  to  the  people,  and  talk  to 


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669 


the  proprietors  like  some  of  your  good  people  in  Chicago  have  done.  We 
have  had  lots  of  girls  that  have  had  their  wages  increased  gradually,  and 
they  are  very  thankful  for  it,  but  you  know  that  a girl  cannot  live  on  $3.50 
to  $5.00  a week  in  Chicago,  can  she?  A.  No. 

Q.  She  can’t  do  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  Let  us  go  a little  further  on  that  subject:  if  a girl  is  working  for 
I $3.50  to  $5.00  a week — a lone  girl,  isn’t  that  girl  more  liable  to  go  astray 
1 than  she  would  be  if  she  were  getting  $8.00  or  $10.00  a week?  Let  me 
illustrate  that.  Professor;  I met  a young  girl  out  here  at  a dance  hall.  I 
was  out  several  nights  among  them,  and  she  told  me  her  story  of  how 
she  fell  and  how  it  came  about.  She  was  working  for  $4.50  a week  and 
paid  $3.75  every  week  for  board.  She  had  to  pay  5 cents  carfare  at  morn- 
ing and  at  night;  she  lived  out  about  seven  miles,  and  she  told  me  she  had 
15  cents  left  at  the  end  of  the  week.  She  told  me  the  whole  story.  I said, 
“My  girl,  had  you  been  receiving  $10.00  a week  instead  of  $3.50  to  $5.00, 
would  you  have  been  all  right?’’  She  said,  “I  would,  most  assuredly,  but 
what  could  I do?  My  clothes  were  getting  threadbare;  I only  had  one 
shirtwaist,  and  I had  to  iron  it  out  at  night,  and  when  that  was  gone  what 

■ could  I do?’’  Now,  if  that  girl  had  been  getting  $8.00  or  $10.00  a week,  do 
• you  think  that  that  girl  would  have  been  as  liable  to  fall  as  a girl  getting 

from  $3.50  to  $5.00?  Let  us  come  right  down  to  horse  sense  and  mother 
wit;  do  you  think  that  a girl  working  for  $3.50  to  $4.50  or  $5.00  a week  is 
as  liable  to  go  astray  as  the  girl  that  is  getting  $8.00  to  $10.00  a week  and 
having  all  the  necessities  of  life;  isn’t  she  more  liable?  A.  That  depends 
[ upon  the  girl. 

' Q.  Here  is  the  question:  it  is  a question  of  starvation,  or  suicide,  or 
prostitution,  or  slavery;  now  what  are  they  going  to  do?  A.  I don’t 
think  you  have  exhausted  the  categories  yet. 

Q.  I am  asking  you  the  question,  and  we  want  your  opinion;  you  are 
. better  posted  than  I am,  so  far  as  that  is  concerned.  A.  Let  me  tell  you, 
I have  known  a girl,  for  instance,  to  have  a job  offered  her  in  a place 
!;  where  they  had  a boarder;  she  didn’t  have  any  shoes  to  wear  to  go  to  take 
the  job.  She  was  bitterly  disappointed — was  crying.  The  boarder  came 
up  and  asked  what  she  was  crying  about,  and  she  told  him.  He  said,  “I 
will  fix  that.”  She  sold  herself,  poor  child,  for  a pair  of  shoes. 

Q.  That  is  exactly  it,  she  hadn’t  money  to  buy  the  shoes?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  That  is  what  I want  to  get  at.  A.  But  now,  that  is  a question 
that  is  very  rare;  on  the  other  hand,  I could  parallel  that  case  by  very 
many  of  hungry  girls  who  resisted  the  temptation;  of  others  who  sold 
i|  themselves  for  a new  hat  that  they  didn’t  need  at  all,  or  a one  night’s 
if  dinner,  or  an  entertainment  at  a small,  cheap  show,  or  something  of  that 
s sort. 

; Q.  You  are  correct  on  that.  A.  Yes,  and  it  is  not  always  a serious 
j economic  pressure  that  induces  her  to  do  that,  not  by  a great  deal,  but,  of 
course,  no  person  can  support  themselves  decently  at  all  with  anything 
but  the  very  barest  of  the  necessities  of  life  on  $3.00  to  $5.00  a week  in  any 
' place  like  Chicago. 

Q.  That  is  what  I am  trying  to  get  at.  A.  While  you  are  talking 
about  the  minimum  w-age,  I would  like  to  give  you  a little  experience  that 
I had  in  England.  I was  over  in  England  about  two  years  ago,  just  when 
they  were  starting  up  and  putting  into  effect  the  Parliamentary  law  of 
■ ; the  minimum  wage.  Of  course,  they  had  the  enormous  advantage  of 
I legislating  for  all  the  country,  and  we  are  payim?  a mighty  big  price  for 
, our  state  governments;  we  are  disturbing  the  balance  of  economic  com- 
j petition  and  putting  some  people  very  much  at  a disadvantage  with  other 
j people  not  five  miles  away  from  them.  Of  course,  I met  that  in  the  be- 
f ginning  in  investigating  the  Commission,  where  we  were  trying  to  make 
all  mines  of  Illinois  safe  from  fire  after  the  Cherry  Mine  disaster.  In 
[West  Virginia  they  have  not  done  anything,  and  that  is  the  way  it  goes 

■ along.  A lot  of  employers,  who  would  not  otherwise  object  if  the  thing 
1 went  from  one  end  of  the  continent  to  the  other,  then  they  would  be  all 
j even,  but  they  did  not  want  the  economic  balance  of  competition  upset,  so 
' they  all  objected  and  discharged  all  men  who  were  skinning  their  labor. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  BEALL:  I was  over  there  four  months;  were  you  at 
Budapest?  A.  No,  I didn’t  get  to  go  to  Budapest.  I went  to  London 
with  the  trade  boards.  They  passed  this  law  that  there  should  be  a mini- 
mum wage,  and  put  it  in  the  hands  of  the  trade  boards  to  see  employers 
and  the  employes  in  each  trade  by  itself,  and  they  started  on  four  trades. 
I was  over  in  July,  and  what  I am  afraid  of  is,  gentlemen,  that  anj-  kind 
of  omnibus  legislation  will  fail  at  tbe  end.  1 am  very  favorable  to  a mini- 
mum wage,  1 want  it,  but  I want  it  so  it  will  stay  after  we  get  it.  I was 
with  the  Trade  Board  men  when  they  were  doing  this.  They  took  up 
first  the  chainmakers,  mostly  women,  who  were  hammering  out  the  links 
of  chains.  I never  knew  that  they  were  in  the  industry.  Then  the3'  took 
the  wholesale  clothing,  the  lacemaking  and  the  paper  box  making,  and  they 
got  these  representative  emploj-ers  and  the  representative  employes  to- 
gether and  said,  “Now,  the  government  wants  you  to  arrive  at  some  de- 
cision as  to  what  the  minimum  wage  in  this  trade  should  be.”  And  when 
they  got  at  that,  I understand  it  was  with  the  understanding  that  the 
government  trade  boards  could  lower  it  or  raise  it,  but  they  did  not  do 
anything  without  a consultation  between  the  two  parties  most  involved. 

Q.  This  bill  at  Springfield  calls  for  a commission  of  three  to  consult 
with  the  manufacturers,  say,  for  instance,  the  box  factories;  this  commis- 
sion has  the  right  to  go  there  and  consult  with  the  manufacturers  and 
employes.  A.  That  might  be  well  while  you  are  on  the  question  of  paper  box 
manufacturing. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  if  the  Governor  would  select  good  men  we 
could  arrive  at  some  minimum  wage  scale  which  would  be  acceptable  to 
the  people?  A.  Now,  do  you  mean  one  that  would  prevail  over  all 
trades,  irrespective  of  the  cost  of  living  in  different  parts  of  the  State? 

Q.  No,  I expected  to  come  to  that,  but  take  in  the  southern  part  of 
the  State  the  cost  of  living  there  is  different  from  what  it  is  here.  A. 
There  is  quite  a difference.  Now,  I have  had  this  experience:  the  window 
washers  and  people  down  in  the  loop  district  wanted  a raise  of  wages,  or  in 
the  janitor  service;  I am  not  sure  whether  it  was  window  washers  or  not, 
and  they  based  it  on  the  cost  of  living.  The  managers  came  over  to  us 
and  wanted  to  know  what  it  cost  to  live,  saj-ing  that  the3'  didn’t  believe 
what  had  been  stated  to  them,  and  we  went  around  and  got  statistics 
which  showed  that  the  wages  had  not  anywhere  kept  pace  in  proportion  to 
the  cost  of  living.  Now,  I think  in  arriving  at  a minimum  wage  we  ought 
to  take  all  that  into  consideration  and  find  out  the  relation  of  the  wage 
to  the  cost  of  living,  then  you  will  have  it  on  a scientific  basis. 

Q.  If  this  bill  passes  and  the  Commission  is  appointed,  all  good  men, 
men  wdio  would  be  competent  to  go  over  the  matter  of  the  minimum  wa.ge 
scale  and  ascertain  also  the  different  costs  of  living,  don’t  3'ou  think  it 
would  be  better  than  to  have  conditions  as  they  are  at  the  present  time?  A. 
They  would  have  to  be  might3^  well  informed  men,  appointed  on  some  other 
basis  than  that  of  political  creed, 

Q.  It  would  be  up  to  the  Governor  to  see  to  that.  .-k.  Well,  let  me 
make  one  other  statement.  I had  been  ver3-  much  afraid  of  the  identification 
of  this  minimum  wage  movement — and  I want  the  Lieutenant  Governor  to 
hear  this — 1 had  been  ver3'  much  afraid  to  class  the  identification  of  this 
movement  for  a minimum  wage,  with  \ice  commissions,  on  two  grounds. 
In  the  first  place,  I think  that  the  public  hearings,  if  3'Ou  will  pardon  me  for 
saying  so,  in  which  so  man3-  girls  had  been  brought  in  to  testif3'  as  to  their 
wages,_  and  all  that,  has  been  an  injustice  to  them,  and  on  that  ground  1 
have  criticised  the  method  of  the  Committee,  On  the  other  hand,  I think 
that  the  minimum  wage  problem  is  such  a complicated  affair,  that  it  ought 
not  to  be  tied  up  with  the  comparatively  small  proportion  of  cases  in  which 
the  vices  of  immoralit}'  are  involved.  Now,  if  x'ou  can  somehow  or  other, 
in  your  report,  gentlemen,  to  the  Senate,  when  it  .gets  out  over  the  Slate, 
base  3mur  arguments  for  a minimum  wage  scale  on,  not  onlv  on  this  evidence 
that  3'OU  have  been  .getting,  which  of  course  I allow,  has  a kind  of  educational 
value,  but  if  you  could  get  some  broad  sweep  of  argument  such  as  the  message 
of  Parliament  had  and  put  it  up  to  the  Legislature,  it  would  carp-  through  the 
state  and  through  the  other  states.  1 have  a good  deal  to  do  with  journalism, 
and  I read  a great  manr-  papers,  and  this  Committee  has  been  ver3‘  severely 
criticised  all  over  bv  professors  of  political  economc',  and  by  men  of  public 


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671 


affairs,  and  by  those  who  are  very  insistent  upon  a minimum  wage  scale  law 
that  that  identification  is  damaging  the  movement. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Isn’t  it  a fact,  Professor,  that  not  every,  hut 
nearly  every  professor  of  political  economy,  every  newspaper  and  publica- 
tion that  has  criticised  this  Committee  is  receiving  part  of  his  or  her  income 
from  big  business  concerns  that  are  underpaying  these  girls?  A.  I would  not 
like  to  say,  but  that  is  not  the  reason  they  said  it,  for  some  of  these  men  are 
quite  as  free  and  independent  as  any  member  of  this  Committee  could  be. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Let  me  call  your  attention  to  one  other  thing:  I have  by 
correspondence  with  selected  individuals,  for  instance,  Catherine  Bement  Davis, 
she  is  a public  official  in  the  Bedford  Reformatory,  and  people  who  are  entirely 
independent,  I have  had  by  correspondence  and  inquiry,  I have  asked  them  for 
their  opinion  as  to  the  direct  relation  between  w'ages  and  vice.  Now,  in  the 
order  of  their  accounting  for  the  w'omen  and  girls  falling  into  vice,  this  is  the 
order  from  this  correspondence  of  mine,  and  I think  that  they  were  the  best 
informed  people,  as  I would  not  write  to  a person  that  I thought  was  going 
to  lie  to  me,  but  here  is  the  way  they  put  it ; sub-normal,  weak-minded,  individual 
temperamental  conditions,  immoral  associates,  cramped  quarters  at  home.  When 
you  were  out  I made  quite  an  emphasis  on  the  wage  question  of  the  parent,  not 
only  of  the  girl  but  of  tbe  parent.  No  employment,  seeking  for  pleasure,  love 
for  finery,  inexperience,  ignorance  of  sex  relationship,  with  the  economic  influ- 
ences more  or  less  working  all  along  through  them,  but  not  a definite,  specific 
single  one.  It  is  too  complicated  a thing.  You  have  got  to  see  wdiat  a mixed, 
complicated  situation  it  is. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  We  have  got  way  off  of  our  subject,  altogether;  I 
asked  you  a question  to  start  with,  about  girls  working  for  three  and  a half  or 
four  dollars  a w'eek.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now"  then,  do  you  think  that  a girl,  as  I said  before,  do  you  think  that 
a girl  can  live  on  that?  A.  No,  on  any  decent  standard  of  life,  she  cannot. 

Q.  What  would  you  recommend  nowq  you  have  been  investigating  these  mat- 
ters, tell  us  what  to  do.  A.  I am  not  a high-brow ; I am  a low-brow. 

Q.  You  criticised  us  and  you  don’t  know  what  this  Committee  had  been 
through  the  last  four  months.  I am  sixty-five  years  of  age  and  I have  traveled 
all  over  this  world,  but  I have  learned  more  in  the  last  four  months  than  I did 
all  of  my  life  before;  my  whole  sphere  is  changed.  Now,  tell  us  what  to  do. 
We  say  that  a girl  cannot  live  on  three  and  a half  to  five  dollars  a week  and 
live  right.  Tell  us  what  to  do;  you  will  get  up  and  preach  about  it,  but  let  us 
get  down  to  brass  tacks;  what  would  you  do?  A.  I have  been  trying  to  solve 
that  problem  myself. 

Q.  Let  us  put  ourselves  in  the  other  fellow’s  place.  A.  I have  been  trying 
to  do  that  all  of  my  life;  in  the  first  place,  there  is  no  “Humphrey’s  Specific.” 

Q.  No,  we  can't  adopt  one  remedy  for  everything.  A.  There  is  no  one 
remedy  for  such  a complication  as  this;  the  whole  situation  is  involved.  I can’t 
answer  yes  or  no  to  such  a question  without  making  a fool  of  myself. 

Q.  No,  we  can  all  do  that,  but  can  you  give  us  any  recommendation  ; you 
have  been  in  this  business  for  a good  man}-  years?  A.  I would  have  to  say 
that  a good  many  things  were  to  be  done  in  the  first  place  to  answer  what 
you  want  me  to  answer.  First,  1 w-ould  say  that  a well  considered  maximum 
w'age  law',  somewhat  on  the  lines  of  what  the  English  law  has  been  arrived  at, 
would  be  essential. 

Q.  That  is  what  I have  been  trying  to  get  out  of  3-011  for  half  an  hour; 
now  3-0U  come  down  to  it.  A.  I am  not  through  yet. 

Q.  Well,  go  ahead  and  give  us  the  balance  of  it  now  and  don’t  qualif}'.  A. 
No,  I am  not  going  to  qualify  it. 

Q.  Well,  go  ahead  then.  A.  I would  say  in  addition  to  that  I would 
have  vocational  guidance  or  vocational  training  all  down  to  the  kindergarten 
in  the  public  school. 

Q.  That  is  all  right.  Now  let  us  talk  about  the  matter  further.  A.  I 
would  have  sex  training  of  the  parents.  I w'ould  also  have  it  very  carefully 
given  to  children,  if  possible,  by  parents,  if  not  by  somebody  who  would  do  it 
better,  in  sex  hygiene.  Man\-  of  these  little  girls  fall  before  they  know  what  it 
is  to  stand,  and  they  don’t  know  the  consequences  of  their  acts. 


672  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  What  would  you  think  of  a man  who  brings  girls  from  Milwaukee  and 
Des  Moines,  Iowa,  and  Montreal,  Canada,  brings  them  here  and  sells  them,  you 
know  what  I mean  by  that,  you  have  heard  of  it?  A.  Heard  of  it!  Heard  of 
it ! I should  say  I have. 

Q.  All  with  the  promise  of  good  wages,  they  come  here  and  they  don’t  get 
it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  and  I agree  on  all  those  subjects,  and  I agree  with  you  on  all  that 
you  have  said ; you  are  a man  who  is  well  posted,  but  it  all  comes  right  down 
to  the  start,  to  what  we  started  to  say  first,  if  we  had  a good  minimum  wage 
law  for  girls,  under  a good  commission,  good,  reliable  men,  do  you  not  think 
as  well  as  I do  that  it  would  be  a good  thing?  A.  It  would  be  a good  thing, 
but  it  does  not  all  come  down  to  that. 

Q.  It  is  a good  start?  A.  Yes,  it  is  a good  start. 

Q.  This  Committee  lasts  two  years,  and  we  have  two  years  to  work  on. 
I don’t  know  who  the  Governor  will  appoint,  but  I assure  you  that  the  Governor 
will  select  good  men,  men  that  have  had  experience  like  you  Irave  had,  and  you 
might  be  one  of  them.  A.  I have  no  desire  in  that  direction ; I have  troubles 
now  of  my  own  at  present.  I would  like  to  saj’  just  another  thing,  I feel  that 
the  Minimum  Wage  Bill,  not  the  minimum  wage  movement,  needs  backing  up 
by  educational  training.  Now,  I find  that  most  of  these  boys,  as  well  as  girls, 
and  it  is  a man’s  question  as  well — there  is  at  least  fifteen  men  every  twenty- 
four  hours  to  one  woman,  at  least,  and  in  New  York  they  said  ten,  and  it  is 
between  ten  and  fifteen,  and  I am  more  intensely  interested  on  the  man’s  side 
than  I am  on  the  woman’s  side.  It  is  a man’s  vice,  and  the  woman  is  used;  that 
is  all  there  is  to  it. 

Q.  You  take  a poor  girl  coming  to  Chicago  with  no  friends  and  ever\'body 
is  trying  to  catch  her.  A.  Yes,  sir,  sure.  Now,  I think  that  the  school  age 
should  be  raised  and  that  we  should  have  educational  training,  not  at  the  expense 
of  general  discipline  and  culture,  but  educational  guidance  and  training  all  the 
way  along.  Here  is  a little  girl,  possibly  of  foreign  parentage,  and  the  day 
she  is  fourteen  years  old — y-ou  have  lived,  possibly,  in  a tenement  house  region 
as  I have  all  of  my  manhood — and  what  happens  to  that  poor  little  thing?  'That 
household  is  open  for  the  panderer  to  work.  She  has  to  stop  in  the  middle  of 
the  week,  if  she  is  fourteen  years  old,  and  go  out  and  find  a job.  The  child 
does  not  know  where  to  find  a job.  “Girl  wanted.’’  Probably  she  gets  into  sorne 
of  these  employment  agencies.  While  we  were  investigating,  and  were  in  this 
Commission,  the  Vice  Commission,  we  sent  women  detectives  around  to  employ- 
ment agencies  and  said  to  them,  “Can  you  furnish  us  any  girls  to  sporting 
houses?”  We  had  no  difficulty  at  all.  They  put  down  the  name  and  the  locations 
of  these  employment  agents  that  at  once  said  they  would  do  the  same.  That 
child  goes  around,  wanders  up  and  down  the  street,  and  her  rnother  in  some 
cases  don’t  even  know  where  she  is  employed.  If  she  is  an  immigrant,  that  has 
just  come  in,  she  can’t  speak  the  English  language,  and  I warrant  you  that  if 
there  was  a big  fire  and  several  hundreds  of  those  girls  were  burned  up,  why, 
a certain  proportion  of  the  families  of  those  girls  would  not  kmow  that  they 
were  in  that  building.  There  is  no  guidance  for  that  poor  little  child  just  at 
the  time  when  they  most  need  it,  so  I say  to  select  it  all  and  put  it  down  on 
the  wage  question,  is  really  not  fair. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Now,  I want  to  ask  you  just  a few  questions. 
A.  All  right. 

Q.  You  were  connected  with  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission?  A.  I was. 

Q.  In  the  report  given  by  the  Chicago  \'ice  Commission  is  any  reference 
made  to  the  matter  of  wages?  A.  Sure,  there  is;  I made  it  myself. 

Q.  That  makes  a connection  between  low  wages  and  vice?  A.  A con- 
nection, yes. 

Q.  And  that  report  was  written  after  investigation?  A.  Yes,  sir;  why, 

yes. 

Q.  That  was  written  after  an  investigation?  A.  Why,  of  course 
it  was. 

Q.  And  in  that  investigation  you  found  that  low  wages  has  something 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


673 


to  do  with  immorality?  A.  I reported  the  proportions  all  the  way 
through. 

Q.  How  much,  if  you  are  familiar  with  the  figures,  did  it  cost  the 
Chicago  Vice  Commission  to  conduct  its  investigations?  A.  I think  the 
printing  of  it  cost  about  not  less  than  fifteen  thousand  dollars.  We  were 
at  it  about  a year  and  a half. 

Q.  Did  that  include  everything,  fifteen  thousand  dollars — printing  and 
everything?  A.  I didn’t  have  anything  to  do  with  that  part  of  it;  I 
think  the  City  Council  made  two  appropriations  of  five  thousand  dollars 
each,  and  I think  we  got  one.  I think  that  something  like  five  thousand 
dollars  in  money  was  given  us  from  the  outside. 

Q.  Who  was  the  chief  contributor  of  that  money  given  from  the 
outside?  A.  I don’t  remember;  I never  heard  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear?  A.  Why,  I don’t  know  whether  it  was  given 
in  one  sum  or  several.  I have  heard  of  some  who  gave  to  it. 

Q.  Who  are  some  who  gave  to  it,  according  to  your  recollection? 
A.  I think  Mr.  Rosenwald  gave  some;  I had  nothing  to  do  with  the 
finances  at  all,  and  it  is  so  long  ago  that  I can’t  remember.  I would  tell 
you  if  I knew,  frankly.  ’ 

Q.  When  you  wrote  the  paragraph  in  the  report  on  low  wages,  did  you 
first  write  another  report  on  the  matter  of  wages?  A.  No,  everything  I 
wrote  is  in  there. 

Q.  Do  3mu  know  of  any  other  report  connecting  low  wages  and  im- 
morality that  was  written  and  submitted  to  the  Committee,  except  that 
which  went  into  the  book?  A.  Here  is  the  way  we  proceeded:  Sub- 
committees were  formed,  on  some  of  which  I served.  The  sub-committee 
made  its  investigation — I am  speaking  of  the  one  I was  on — and  we  pre- 
sented a preliminary  report  at  very  considerable  length.  The  entire 
commission,  when  we  were  ready  to  report,  sat  for  hours  and  hours  and 
hours,  whole  evenings  at  a time,  listening  to  those  reports.  Then  those 
reports  were  put  back  into  the  hands  of  a committee  on  the  entire  report, 
so  as  to  prevent  overlapping  and  to  make  it  short,  condense  it  sufficiently 
to  make  it  a readable  volume,  and  in  that  way  they  were  condensed  and 
laid  out  and  put  in  line  with  each  other  so  that  there  would  be  no  repe- 
tition, and  there  was  absoluteh^  no  blinking  at  facts,  and  if  there  had 
been  I would  have  been  the  first  to  cry  out  against  it.  I had  no  axe  to 
grind  there;  I stood  straight  up  on  two  feet  for  the  things  that  I be- 
lieved in,  and  I watched  very  closely,  and  I think  I attended  about  every 
session  of  the  commission,  and  I know  of  no  manipulation  of  figures  or 
reports  of  any  kind  that  would  change  the  opinion  of  the  committee,  or 
any  attempt  to  change  it;  the  committee  would  not  have  stood  for  it. 

Q.  That  report,  as  published,  has  a key?  A.  Yes,  I have  referred 
to  it. 

Q.  You  have  that  key?  A.  No,  I haven’t. 

Q.  Have  you  a copy  of  the  key?  A.  No,  none  of  us  have. 

Q.  Why  was  the  key  not  made  public?  A.  As  I stated  before, 
it  was  because  we  got  a great  deal  of  this  evidence  on  the  assurance  of 
confidence.  I personally  interrogated,  as  I told  these  gentlemen  when  you 
were  out,  scores  of  these  women.  I said,  “Now,  your  name  will  never 
be  mentioned  in  this  thing.”  And  some  of  those  even  in  the  sporting  life, 
a great  many  of  them,  have  been  in  the  sporting  life  for  most  of  their 
womanhood,  and  those  women  were  just  as  urgent  that  their  names 
should  not  be  mentioned  as  those  were  who  had  recently  entered,  and  I 
would  consider  it  the  most  outrageous  breach  of  confidence  and  trust 
if  anything  were  given  out  to  lead  to  the  identification  of  the  persons 
that  committed  their  confidence  to  me.  It  is  not  fair,  moreover,  what 
could  have  been  proved  then  and  what  was  true  could  not  be  proved 
about  locations,  owners  of  property,  madams,  inmates  and  patrons  of 
the  eighteen  different  groups  of  merchants  and  all  who  were  preying  like 
wolves  on  these  poor  creatures.  We  could  have  proved  it  then  but  you 
could  not  prove  it  six  weeks  after  with  all  your  witnesses  scattered,  and 
we  would  all  of  us  have  been  liable  to  be  sent  up  for  libel,  and  the  most 
of  us  wanted  to  keep  out  of  jail. 


674  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


SENATOR  BEALL:  There  is  one  or  two  things  that  you  agree  with 
us  on;  you  agree  with  us  that  it  is  poor  practice  to  allow  liquor  in  these 
dance  halls  where  girls  will  drink?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  agree  that  a minimum  wage  law  is  a good  thing?  A. 
Yes,  surely. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  all  I want.  Professor. 

PROF.  TAYLOR:  I wish  to  absolutely  disavow  the  opinion  that 
has  been  attributed  to  me,  I think,  twice  within  two  days,  in  the  public 
press,  that  I have  ever  said  or  thought  that  wages  have  no  connection  with 
the  victims  of  vice;  I never  said  it  and  never  thought  it. 

Q.  You  never  said  that?  A.  It  has  been  stated  in  connection  with 
my  being  subpoenaed. 

Q.  You  never  did  say  that?  A.  I never  said  it  and  never  thought  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  are  in  sympathy  with  the  w’ork  done 
by  this  Committee,  are  you,  Professor?  A.  I am  in  sympathq  with  two 
public  steps  you  have  in  mind;  one  is  to  get  a well  considered  minimum 
wage  law  in  the  state  of  Illinois,  and  second  is  to  stop  the  source  of  supply 
of  victims  of  this  vice. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  But  I have  criticised,  gentlemen,  in  public,  and  I will 
stand  by  the  criticism  that  some  of  the  methods  employed  by  the  Com- 
mittee, I think  they  might  have  been  errors  in  judgment;  I think  they 
were  mistakes,  and  I think,  nevertheless,  notwithstanding  the  mistakes, 
that  the  work  of  the  Committee  has  called  very  wide  attention  to  condi- 
tions among  people  who  probably  would  not  have  paid  attention  to  any- 
thing or  anybody  else  and  that  notwithstanding  some  harm  that  has  been 
done  by  it.  I think  that  a very  great  deal  of  good  has  come  out  of  it. 

Jacque  Rosseau’s  Testimony. 

JACQUE  ROSSEAU,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Jacque  Rosseau. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Rosseau?  A.  I am  engaged  in  the 
manufacture  of  the  safety  towel  device,  operate  a laundry  of  my  own  in 
connection,  and  also  operate  some  concessions  in  various  hotels,  res- 
taurants and  so  forth. 

Q.  What  are  the  nature  of  those  concessions?  A.  Well,  checking 
wraps. 

Q.  At  what  hotels  and  restaurants  do  j'ou  operate?  A.  The  most 
prominent  places  in  town. 

Q.  Will  you  please  name  your  places?  A.  Well,  if  you  insist; 
such  as  the  Bismarck  and  Dejonghes,  the  Palmer  House  and  the  Sherman 
House. 

Q.  And  others?  A.  Yes,  the  Kaiserhof  here  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Do  you  operate  as  an  individual,  a company  or  a corporation? 
A.  As  an  individual;  the  towel  company  is  a corporation  of  the  State 
of  Illinois. 

Q.  But  the  concession  business  is  your  individual  business?  A.  ^ly 
individual  business. 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  do  you  employ  in  this  hotel  con- 
cession business?  A.  Fourteen. 

Q.  Only  fourteen  in  all?  A.  Only  fourteen. 

Q.  How  are  they  placed;  for  instance,  at  the  Sherman  House  how 
many  have  you?  A.  Two. 

Q.  Two  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  Bismarck  two,  and  the  Dejonghe 
one,  and  one  at  the  Kaiserhof. 

Q.  Where  else  do  you  employ?  A.  One  at  the  Palmer  House  and 
two  at  the  Edelweiss,  and  that  is  about  all. 

Q.  That  only  covers  eight?  A.  There  is  two  maids  in  the  Sherman 
House  and  one  at  Dejonghe. 

Q.  What  do  those  girls  do?  A.  They  receive  and  give  out  wraps. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


675 


'j  Q.  Are  they  paid  anything  for  their  services?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  How  are  they  paid?  A.  They  are  paid  more  than  those  in  any 

:i  factory  is  paid;  we  pay  eight,  nine  and  ten  dollars  and  meals. 

! Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wages  you  pay?  A.  Seven  dollars  at  present 

i;  for  maids,  but  they  get  nine  dollars  during  the  season:  this  ends  our 

■ winter  season  for  hotels  and  restaurants. 

■ Q.  How  many  hours  do  they  work?  A.  They  never  exceed  the 

I;:  ten-hour  law. 

; Q.  What  time  do  they  go  to  work  in  the  morning?  A.  At  twelve, 
..)  at  noon. 

IQ.  What  time  do  they  quit  for  dinner?  A.  At  two  o’clock;  there 
is  always  more  than  one  woman  employed  in  any  department. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  they  change  off. 

Q.  They  get  off  at  two  o’clock;  now,  what  time  do  they  come  back? 
A.  About  five-thirty. 

Q.  At  five-thirty  o’clock  in  the  afternoon?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  do  they  remain  on  duty?  A.  Again  until  about  one 
o’clock.  In  every  case  we  have  a book  that  we  keep  track  of  where 
y there  is  two  girls  employed,  as  at  the  Sherman  House  and  we  have  five 
li  men  working  there. 

■''  Q.  When  these  girls  leave  work  at  about  one  o’clock  in  the  morning, 

I I presume  they  go  home  on  the  street  cars?  A.  I suppose  so;  I don’t 
watch  them  any  more  than  any  other  factory  man  or  any  other  employer 
watches  his  employes. 

Q.  Yes,  but  there  aren’t  very  many  factories  that  work  girls  and 
j put  them  out  on  the  streets  to  go  home  alone  at  one  o’clock  in  the 
morning,  so  you  will  admit  the  condition  of  your  business  in  that  detail 
is  different?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  how  they  get  home?  A.  I don’t  know,  your 
Honor,  but  I imagine  that  they  go  home  on  the  street  car. 

] Q.  Is  it  fair  to  presume  that  they  go  home  on  the  street  car?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  They  leave  your  place  and  they  have  to  stand  sometimes  quite 
'a  while  until  a street  car  goes  by,  waiting  for  a car  at  one  o’clock  in 
the  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

IQ.  Have  any  of  those  girls  ever  complained  to  you  of  being  accosted 
while  waiting  on  the  corner  at  one  o’clock  in  the  morning  for  a car? 
A.  No,  sir,  at  no  time. 

Q.  They  have  not  called  your  attention  to  that?  A.  No,  sir. 
CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Well,  they  have  been,  because  some  of 
those  girls  have  written  in  to  us  telling  us  of  insults  that  are  offered  to 
them  at  that  hour  of  the  night,  not  in  your  place  of  business,  but  in 
getting  home. 

THE  WITNESS:  I,  like  all  manufacturers,  have,  my  competitors  to 
compete  with,  and  I don’t  doubt  the  least  that  letters  written  to  you 
by  one  of  my  former  employes  must  have  been  from  a competitor’s 
position. 

Q.  Then  there  is  competition  in  your  line  of  business?  A.  Yes, 
your  Honor. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  engaged  in  the  concession  business?  A. 
Right  in  Chicago? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Three  or  four. 

O.  Who  is  your  leading  competitor?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know 
whether  that  is  right  to  make  public. 

Q.  We  ask  you?  A.  One  by  the  name  of  Newberger. 

Q.  What  is  his  address?  A.  I don’t  know,  but  I will  give  you 
the  names  of  the  places  he  operates. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Rectors  and  the  North  American,  the  Bismarck  Garden, 
the  Morrison  Hotel  and  Riverview  Park. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  that  is  about  all  that  I can  think  of. 


676  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Who  are  some  of  the  other  companies  or  individuals  in  this  line 
of  business?  A.  There  is  one  individual  by  the  name -of  Sam  Lerner. 
Oh,  I missed  one  place  of  Newberger’s;  he  operates  the  Congress  Cafe. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  man  whose  name  you  just  gave?  A. 
Sam  Lerner. 

Q.  What  places  does  he  operate?  A.  Well,  he  operated  some  of 
the  places  you  have  lately  closed  down  on  the  South  Side;  also  the  Cafe 
Savoy. 

Q.  And  some  of  the  places  in  the  22nd  Street  district?  A.  Well, 
about  18th  Street  on  Wabash  Avenue. 

Q.  Those  two  gentlemen  are  your  leading  competitors?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  get  your  business  concessions;  do  j-ou  bid  one 
against  the  other?  A.  Well,  I am  in  Chicago  since  1906;  when  I came 
here  there  was  nobody  here.  It  was  like  any  other  person  thinking  of 
a new  idea  and  entering  into  business. 

Q.  The  idea  originated  with  you?  A.  Yes,  but  two  3-ears  later 
Mr.  Newberger  reached  Chicago,  and  then  secured  the  privilege  at  Rector’s 
and  commenced  to  compete  with  me. 

Q.  Did  he  take  a number  of  places  awa3-  from  \’ou?  A.  Yes,  he 

did. 

Q.  By  offering  more  money?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  first  place  he  took  from  3-011?  A.  He  took  away 
the  Edelweiss. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  there  what  were  you  pa3ing  for  that  con- 
cession? A.  I don’t  care  to  make  that  public,  3mur  Honor. 

Q.  Well,  I ask  you  to?  A.  I don’t  think  it  is  the  proper  time  to 
give  that  out;  I am  here  to  give  you  all  the  ideas  of  what  is  most  interest- 
ing to  the  public,  and  I feel  this  is  a little  personal. 

Q.  Yes,  but  we  ask  you  to  give  that.  A.  I will  tell  3-ou  ever3-thing 
I feel  like,  but  I will  not  give  you  everything  on  this  basis. 

Q.  Do  you  refuse?  A.  I would  be  glad  to  if  it  was  m3"  business; 
if  I opened  a store,  if  I was  independent,  but  I am  going  to  talk  about 
somebody  else’s  business,  and  that  is  not  right.  I am  an  emplo3"e  of  the 
house.  In  fact  there  is  some  concessions  that  I don’t  pa3"  any-thing  for 
the  concession. 

Q.  How  is  that?  A.  Well,  I say-  I was,  as  y-ou  see,  the  first  one 
in  Chicago. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  I had  the  first  chance;  I was  lively-  enough,  and  suc- 
cessful enough  to  obtain  every  place  in  the  city"  of  those  I have  men- 
tioned, excluding  a few  of  them. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  I didn’t  go  at  it  to  keep  any'body"  out  of  business,  but 
merely  as  an  energetic  young  man,  and  finding  the  business  and  looking 
after  it. 

Q.  You  started  out  without  any  money"?  A.  I had  a thousand 
dollars  when  I came  from  Pittsburgh,  where  I operated. 

Q.  You  came  here  with  a thousand  dolltirs  in  1906?  A.  In  1906, 
that  is  personal,  but  I don’t  mind  to  make  that  public. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  worth  now?  A.  I don’t  care  to  say-  that 
either. 

Q.  When  you  get  more  than  a thousand,  that  becomes  a little  too 
personal  to  be  told  about:  now,  Mr.  Newberger  entered  into  competition, 
did  he,  with  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  he  is  your  principal  competitor?  A.  He  goes  at  it  different 
than  the  other  people  have  gone  at  it,  the  other  people  that  is  ahead  of 
me. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ"  in  your  business?  A.  Oh,  about 
thirty-five. 

Q.  The  girls  in  your  employ  wear  a uniform,  do  they?  A.  No,  your 

Honor. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


677 


Q.  They  don’t?  A.  No,  sir,  just  an  apron. 

Q.  Are  there  any  pockets  in  that  apron?  A.  Pockets,  all  you  want; 
3"ou  can  fill  them  up  with  all  kinds  of  change  and  they  will  hold  it,  not 
as  the  papers  made  it  public,  as  there  was  no  pockets  allowed. 

Q.  You  do  allow  pockets?  A.  All  they  want. 

Q.  Do  you  reserve  the  privilege  of  going  into  those  pockets?  A. 
No,  sir,  we  never  inquire  of  those  people  that  wear  them;  if  they  are 
not  satisfied,  we  make  a change,  that  is  the  means  of  what  we  do  in  our 
business. 

Q.  What  I want  to  get  at  is  how  do  you  find  out  whether  you 
are  satisfied  or  not?  A.  How  do  we  find  out? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  We  generalh^  never  have  any  trouble,  as  a rule. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean?  A.  Well,  we  have  men,  just  the  same  as 
the  girls;  the  girls  can’t  do  the  hard  work  anyway.  There  is  more  work, 
in  fact  the  girls  can’t  do  as  well  as  men;  in  other  words,  taking  in  at 
the  Hotel  Kaiserhof,  taking  in  the  wraps  and  checking  them  and  hanging 
them  up. 

Q.  Have  you  a list  on  which  you  keep  the  daily  record,  or  nightly 
record,  of  these  girls?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  have  some  record  of  how  much  is  turned  in  to  each  hotel? 
A.  Ves,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  restaurants  everj'  night?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  not  of  the  individual 
employes. 

Q.  There  is  no  check  of  anj-  kind  kept  upon  the  individual?  A.  No,  sir, 
but  I imagine  that  your  Honor  has  been  in  some  of  the  places  and  you  have 
noticed  how  it  has  worked. 

Q.  Is  there  anyone  stationed  to  keep  an  eye  on  those  girls  and  report  if 
they  seem  to  be  getting  away  with  some  of  the  money?  A.  No,  sir;  in  fact 
we  trust  the  whole  thing  to  the  girls  as  well. 

Q.  These  girls  are  paid  tips?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Gratuities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  gratuities  she  keeps  until  the  end  of  the  evening,  or  does  she 
immediately  turn  them  in?  A.  It  all  depends  on  where  she  is;  take  for  in- 
stance in  Dejonghe’s,  she  keeps  it  all  day  long  and  turns  it  in  when  she  gets 
through ; but  at  the  larger  places,  where  the  place  is  a little  bit  larger,  they 
turn  it  in  right  along. 

Q.  When  do  you  make  your  collections?  A.  I make  my  daily  collections 
like  any  other  business. 

Q.  What  hours  do  ^'ou  make  those  collections?  A.  Sometimes  at  twelve 
o’clock  or  one  o’clock,  and  sometimes  the  next  morning. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  a certain  flat  amount  to  the  hotels  and  restaurants?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  have  no  interest  in  the  amount  of  your  gratuities?  A.  That  is 
not  done  for  the  sake  of  money  getting;  it  is  done  more  because  it  is  to  save 
embarrassment  to  the  hotel. 

Q.  How  is  that?  A.  Well,  it  is  a very  troublesome  proposition  to  handle 
those  wraps,  in  case  any  should  get  lost.  I will  point  out  to  you,  for  instance, 
all  over  the  country  that  in  some  places  they  have  not  the  chance  to  get  any 
money  for  the  concession ; they  actually  give  it  over  to  somebody  to  operate  for 
them  as  will  be  liable  for  any  losses ; in  other  words,  it  is  a matter  of  the  short- 
age being  guaranteed  the  house  against  loss. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Rosseau,  I will  have  to  ask  you  a few  direct  questions.  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  You  have  one  girl  at  Dejonghe’s?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  she  receives  gratuities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  weekly  turn  in  of  that  girl  at  Dejonghe’s?  A.  I 
know,  she  gets  nine  dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  much  money  does  she  turn  in  to  you?  A.  That  don’t  make  no 
difference. 

Q.  Now,  I ask  you  that?  A.  Well,  I don’t  want  to  answer  that  question. 


678  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  Do  you  refuse?  A.  Yes,  I don’t  think  I should  tell.  It  makes  no 
difference  to  the  public. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  counsel  on  it?  A.  I did,  yes. 

Q.  And  you  now  refuse  to  answer  the  question?  A.  That  is  quite  differ- 
ent; I am  not  making  that  public. 

Q.  You  refuse  then  to  answer?  A.  Well,  I can’t  see  why  30U  should  in- 
sist on  this  question,  your  Honor. 

Q.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  the  question?  A.  Right  now  I do. 

Q.  Do  you  desire  to  consult  counsel?  A.  I desire  for  further  steps,  yes, 
if  it  is  very  important  for  you  gentlemen  to  know. 

Q.  The  Committee  will  insist  upon  j-our  answering  the  question.  A.  I will 
consult  counsel  and  let  you  know. 

Q.  Then  you  will  return  here  at  two  o’clock  this  afternoon  prepared  to 
answer  the  question  or  to  refuse  to  answer  the  question,  and  on  jour  refusal 
the  record  will  show,  and  further  proceedings  will  be  taken  against  you.  A. 
All  right. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  are  excused  now  for  the  time  being;  you 
are  excused  until  two  o’clock. 

Whereupon  a recess  was  taken  by  the  Committee  until  two  o’clock 
P.  M.,  May  26,  1913. 


SESSION  XXV 


Owner  of  many  restaurant  coat  checking  concessions,  recalled 
as  a witness,  refuses  to  answer  questions  concerning  his  profits. 
Official  of  a laundry  company,  employing  186  girls  in  several  plants, 
explains  his  wage  scale.  Statements  of  profits,  refused  the  Com- 
mittee by  several  witnesses  at  previous  hearings,  are  given  by  an 
attorney  as  copied  from  the  records  of  Federal  Excise  Tax  Re- 
turns in  the  office  of  the  Commissioner  of  Corporations  at  Wash- 
ington, D.  C.  Executives  of  two  chain-store  corporations  give 
evidence.  Working  conditions  and  how  wages  are  fixed  in  the 
meat  packing  plants  at  Chicago  stock  yards  revealed  by  em- 
ployers in  that  industry.  Testimony  of: 

Jacque  Rosseau,  concessionaire; 

Mr.  George  E.  Hunger,  Mimger’s  Laundry  Co.; 

Mr.  Maxwell  Edgar,  attorney  at  law; 

Mr.  C.  W.  Gasque,  auditor,  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Co.; 

Mr.  L.  R.  Steele,  manager,  Knox  5 and  10  cent  Store; 

Mr.  Louis  F.  Swift,  president,  Swift  & Co.,  packers; 

Mr.  M.  D.  Harding,  superintendent,  Armour  & Co.,  packers; 

_ Mr.  C.  L.  Charles,  assistant  superintendent,  Morris  & Co., 

packers. 

j Chicago,  111.,  May  26,  1913,  2 :00  o’clock  P.  M. 

La  Salle  Hotel. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  same  members 
. being  present,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had,  to  wit : 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  meeting  will  come  to  order. 

Jacque  Rosseau’s  Testimony. 

JACQUE  ROSSEAU,  recalled  for  further  examination  by  Chairman 

I O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  been  sworn,  Mr.  Rosseau?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

[ Q.  Are  you  represented  by  counsel,  Mr.  Rosseau?  A.  This  is  my 
I counsel. 

MR.  EGBERT  ROBERTSON:  I represent  Mr.  Rosseau. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Egbert  Robert- 
•'  son,  of  the  law  firm  of  Foreman,  Levin  & Robertson. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  will  be  granted  full  privilege  to  advise 
1 or  take  part  in  the  examination  of  the  witness. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Rosseau,  what  do  you  pay  the  girl  employed  at 
Dejonghe’s  restaurant?  A.  Nine  dollars  a week, 
j Q.  How  long  has  she  been  in  your  employ?  A.  I have  to  look  up 
the  date. 

Q.  Well,  roughly  speaking?  A.  For  a good  many  months. 

Q.  She  is  an  experienced  hand  at  that  kind  of  work?  A.  Yes,  sir 

Q.  What  are  her  duties?  A.  To  check  wraps. 

Q.  That  is,  coats  and  hats  are  given  to  her  and  she  puts  them  up 
^ and  takes  care  of  them?  A.  Yes. 

i Q.  And  gives  them  out?  A.  Yes,  as  they  come  in  for  them. 

I Q.  Puts  them  on  hooks?  A.  Yes. 

679 


HI 

I 


680 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Is  that  the  only  woman  you  have  employed  at  Dejonghe’s  res- 
taurant? A.  And  the  maid. 

Q.  What  are  her  duties?  A.  To  keep  the  place  clean  and  provide 
the  toilet. 

Q.  She  looks  after  the  cleanliness  of  the  place?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  she  receives  gratuities,  as  the  check  girl  receives  gratuities? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  this  maid?  A.  Eight  dollars  a week. 

Q.  She  has  been  in  your  place  some  little  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  she  is  an  experienced  hand?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  to  any  other  expense  outside  of  the  amount  you  pay 
the  hotel  for  the  privilege,  and  the  salaries  you  pay  these  two  girls,  are 
you  to  any  other  expense  in  the  conduct  of  your  business?  A.  Not  any, 
unless  a loss  occurs.  I am  to  reimburse  a loss  if  any  happens. 

Q.  What?  A.  If  they  should  lose  a coat  or  hat  I make  good  for  it. 

Q.  And  you  have  made  good  for  coats  and  hats  lost?  A.  Well,  very 
little,  very  little  losses  occur. 

Q.  But  there  have  been  losses  occur  and  you  have  made  good  for 
them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  good  to  the  hotel?  A.  No,  sir,  I make  good  directly 
to  the  people;  in  other  words,  I avoid  all  trouble  of  going  to  the  hotel. 

Q.  Suppose  I should  lose  a hat  there,  where  do  1 report  it?  A.  You 
leave  your  name  and  address  and  we  call  on  you  and  make  good  to  you. 

Q.  Now,  I ask  you  again,  what  was  the  amount,  the  total  amount 
of  money  taken  in,  in  the  form  of  gratuities,  and  turned  over  to  you 
by  these  two  women  employed  at  Dejonghe’s  restaurant  last  week? 

MR.  ROBERTSON:  That  is- objected  to. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  And  you  advise  your  client  to  refuse  to 
answer  that  question? 

MR.  ROBERTSON:  Yes. 

Q.  You  do  that  believing  that  your  client  is  within  his  rights? 

MR.  ROBERTSON:  Oh,  absolutely,  surel}',  or  I should  not  other- 
wise do  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA  fto  the  witness):  You  do  refuse  to  answer 
it? 

THE  WITNESS:  I personally  do.  I really  am  surprised  at  this 
question  from  people  who  know  something  about  competition  in  this 
world.  For  instance,  I made  public  such  a question  as  this 

MR.  ROBERTSON:  Mr.  Rosseau,  I don’t  think  that  the  Committee 
wants  an  argument  from  you  on  the  question. 

THE  WITNESS:  There  is  something  as  an  excuse. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  us  get  down  to  cases:  you  do  refuse? 

THE  WITNESS:  Yes,  sir. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  secretary'  will  make  a note  of  the 
refusal  of  the  witness  to  answer  the  question  and  will  prepare  a certified 
copy  of  the  evidence  at  the  earliest  possible  moment,  and  give  to  the 
Committee  to  present  to  the  Senate.  That  is  all,  !Mr.  Rosseau. 


STATE  OF  ILLINOIS. 


COUNTY  OF  COOK.  J 

A.  S.  C.ARPENTER,  of  the  City  of  Chicago,  County  of  Cook 
and  State  of  Illinois,  being  first  duly  sworn  on  oath,  deposes  and 
says  that  he  is  a shorthand  writer  doing  business  in  the  cit3’  of 
Chicago,  county  and  state  aforesaid,  and  has  been  engaged  in  said 
business  in  the  Cit}"  of  Chicago  for  the  eighteen  years  last  past:  that 
he  was  emploj-ed  to  report  and  did  report  the  proceedings  of  the 
Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  held  at  the  LaSalle  Hotel  this  26th 
day  of  May,  A.  D.  1913;  that  among  other  witnesses  called  to  testify 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


681 


at  said  time  and  place  was  one  Jacque  Rosseau,  who  was- called  and 
sworn  and  testified  before  said  Committee;  that  the  above  and  fore- 
going is  a full,  true,  correct  and  complete  transcript  of  my  shorthand 
notes,  and  of  the  testimony  of  said  witness  Jacque  Rosseau,  and  of 
the  proceedings  had  at  said  time  and  place.  And  further  this  affiant 
sayeth  not. 

A.  S.  CARPENTER. 

.Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  26th  day  of  May,  A.  D. 

1913. 


MARTIN  J.  HOGAN, 

Notary  Public  in  and  for  Cook  County,  Illinois. 


STATE  OF  ILLINOIS.| 
COUNTY  OF  COOK.  J 


THOMAS  J.  O’NEILL,  of  the  City  of  Chicago,  county  and  state 
aforesaid,  being  first  duly  sworn  on  his  oath  deposes  and  says  that 
he  is  the  official  stenographer  duly  appointed  to  report  the  procedings 
of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee.  That  he  was  present  at  the 
hearing  at  the  LaSalle  Hotel,  Chicago,  Illinois,  on  May  26th,  1913, 
when  one  Jacque  Rosseau  was  called  and  sworn  and  testified  before 
the  said  Committee.  That  he  heard  all  that  was  said  during  the 
examination  of  said  Jacque  Rosseau;  that  he  has  read  over  the  before 
and  foregoing  transcript  of  the  evidence  of  said  Jacque  Rosseau, 
and  the  same  is  a correct  transcript  of  the  proceedings  had  at  said 
time  and  place.  And  further  this  affiant  sayeth  not. 

THOMAS  J.  O’NEILL. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  26th  day  of  May,  A.  D. 
1913. 


MARTIN  J.  HOGAN, 

Notary  Public  in  and  for  Cook  County,  Illinois. 


(Note:  The  Forty-Ninth  General  Assembly  enacted  a law  prohibit- 
ing tip  concessions  in  Illinois  of  the  nature  conducted  by  Mr.  Rosseau.) 


Mr.  George  E.  Munger’s  Testimony. 

GEORGE  E.  MUNGER,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
being  first  duly  sworn,  was  examined  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified 
as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  George  E. 
Munger. 

Q.  And  your  business,  Mr.  Munger?  A.  Laundry  business. 

Q.  With  what  company  or  concern  are  you  connected?  A.  Munger’s 
Laundry  Company  and  Drexel  Laundry  Company. 

Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Incorporated  under  the  laws  of  Illinois?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  laundries  do  you  operate,  Mr.  Munger?  A.  In 
Illinois? 

Q.  In  Illinois.  A.  Four. 

Q.  Where  are  those  laundries  located?  A.  One  is  at  24th  and 
Indiana  Avenue,  one  at  1437  West  Madison  Street,  one  out  in  Hyde 
Park  and  one  at  39th  and  Langley  Avenue. 

Q.  All  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  laundries  outside  of  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Not 
in  Illinois. 

Q.  You  have  laundries  in  other  states?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  what  other  states?  A.  In  Missouri  and  Iowa. 

Q.  They  are  all  owned  by  the  Illinois  corporation?  A.  With  the 


682 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


exception  of  the  Westminster  Laundry  Company  of  St.  Louis;  that  is  a 
separate  corporation  organized  under  the  laws  of  Missouri. 

Q.  What  is  your  position  with  this  company?  A.  I am  assistant  treasurer. 

Q.  You  are  familiar,  Mr.  Munger,  with  the  salaries  of  the  women  and 
girls  employed  by  your  company?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  woman  and  girls  are  employed  by  your  corporation  in  the 
four  laundries  situated  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Approximately  186;  it 
varies  slightly. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  girl  or  any  woman  employed  by 
your  corporation  in  Illinois?  A.  A few  weeks  ago,  when  your  committee  was 
sitting,  I had  some  figures  taken  at  that  time;  at  that  time  we  had  one  girl  that 
was  getting  four  dollars. 

Q.  Have  you  a statement  covering  the  number  of  girls  working  at  different 
figures?  A.  I have  for  a portion  of  the  help;  for  the  lower  salaried  girls. 

Q.  Will  you  read  that,  Mr.  Munger?  A.  Out  of  186  girls  we,  at  this 
time — three  or  four  weeks  ago — we  had  one  girl  at  four  dollars ; one  at  four 
and  a half — these  girls  are  between  the  ages  of  fourteen  and  sixteen — ^five  girls 
at  five  dollars ; twenty  girls  at  six  dollars ; eleven  girls  at  six  and  a half ; thirty- 
two  girls  at  seven ; eighteen  girls  at  seven  and  a half,  making  a total  of  ninety- 
three  girls  that  are  getting  under  eight  dollars. 

Q.  Ninety-three  girls  getting  under  eight  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Could  you  afford,  Mr.  Munger,  could  your  corporation  afford  to  raise 
the  pay  of  these  ninety-three  girls  from  below  eight  dollars  to  eight  dollars 
and  still  make  money?  A.  We  could  not. 

Q.  Then  if  those  girls  were  paid  eight  dollars  a week,  a reasonable  con- 
clusion would  be  that  your  company  would  have  to  go  out  of  business?  A.  That 
would  be  true  unless  we  could  obtain  more  money  for  our  product;  we  cannot 
raise  these  girls  without  raising  the  rest  of  them.  The  drain  on  the  laundry 
business  would  be  too  great  to  allow  them  to  stand  the  strain.  We  pay  on  an 
average  of  fifty  per  cent  of  our  total  income  out  in  wages. 

Q.  Then  you  believe,  Mr.  Munger,  that  if  the  state  should  enact  a minimum 
wage  law,  setting  eight  dollars  as  a minimum  wage,  that  the  consumer  would 
pay  the  freight?  A.  That  would  be  the  result  in  most  lines;  whether  it  would 
be  true  in  the  laundry  business  or  not,  we  don’t  know.  The  laundry  might 
have  to  close  down  if  they  could  get  the  consumer  to  do  it. 

Q.  Where  else  could  the  consumer  get  it  done?  A.  By  washwomen,  by 
Chinamen,  and  they  can  do  it  in  their  own  homes;  that  is  what  we  have  to 
contend  with  most,  is  the  housewife. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  paid  by  your  corporation  to  any  girl  or 
woman?  A.  Twenty-one  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  are  paid  twenty-one?  A.  One. 

y.  How  long  has  she  been  with  your  concern?  A.  Approximately  ten 
years. 

Q.  What  is  she  doing  now?  A.  Bookkeeper. 

Q.  She  started  as  a bookkeeper?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  wage  paid?  A.  We  have  several  girls  getting 
fifteen  and  sixteen. 

Q.  What  are  they  doing?  A.  Some  of  them,  well,  we  have  women  at 
certain  times  on  piece  work.  The  piece  work  I speak  of,  is  shirt  finishing  and 
markers  and  sorters. 

Q.  Why  are  they  paid  these  larger  wages?  A.  They"  are  more  skilled. 

Q.  They  have  been  with  your  company  a number  of  years?  A.  Usually, 
yes,  we  have  girls  that  have  been  with  us  twenty  to  twenty-five  years;  one  girl 
since  the  concern  was  organized. 

Q.  Been  with  you  twenty  or  twenty-five  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  money  is  she  making  now?  A.  The  two  I have  named, 
one  of  them  makes  fifteen  dollars  and  one  of  them  makes  sixteen  dollars. 

Q.  After  twenty-five  years  of  preparation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  period  of  service  of  girls  in  your  employ?  A. 
They  only  average  three  and  a half  years. 


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Q.  Most  of  these  girls  live  in  the  neighborhood  in  which  the  laundry  is 
situated?  A.  Not  necessarily. 

Q.  They  have  car  fare  to  pay?  A.  The  majority  of  them  have  car  fare 
to  pay. 

Q.  Does  the  average  daily  expenditure  for  car  fare  run  up  to  ten  cents 
per  day;  it  would  amount  to  ten  cents  per  day  wouldn’t  it?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  estimate  the  minimum  cost  of  living  of  a girl  or  woman 
in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  I don’t  know  if  I am  qualified  to  answer  that 
question;  I think  it  varies  in  different  cases  or  different  localities.  Practically 
all  of  our  girls  live  at  home.  There  are  a few  that  support  themselves.  Most 
of  those  girls  live  in  districts  and  with  people  of  their  own  nationality  where  they 
get  their  board  quite  reasonable. 

Q.  They  are  enabled  to  live,  exist,  because  they  live  in  neighborhoods  that 
are  not  as  good  as  some  other  neighborhoods?  A.  Possibly  so. 

Q.  You  are  enabled  to  get  those  girls  and  they  are  enabled  to  work  under 
smaller  wages  because  they  live  in  such  districts?  A.  Because  their  expenses 
are  not  possibly  as  high  as  that  of  girls  working  in  department  stores,  where 
they  have  to  dress  better ; their  expenses  are  naturally  lower. 

Q.  You  would  say  as  a general  rule,  would  you,  Mr.  Munger,  that  a girl 
that  is  getting  less  than  eight  dollars  a week,  if  she  be  entirely  self-supporting, 
must  of  necessity  live  in  a section  of  the  city  where  the  conditions  are  not  the 
best?  A.  No. 

Q.  In  the  way  of  housing?  A.  No,  not  necessarily;  she  can  live  in  a 
section  of  the  city  where  she  can  obtain  board  for  less  money;  possibly  the  con- 
ditions in  that  section  may  be  better,  and  they  may  not  be  as  good  as  in  certain 
other  localities. 

Q.  You  have  twenty  girls  working  at  six  dollars  a week;  what  do  they  do? 
A.  A good  many  of  them  work  in  the  flat  work  department. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A.  Where  we  iron  sheets,  table  linen, 
pillow  slips,  towels,  and  all  that  sort  of  thing. 

Q.  They  come  to  work  at  what  hour  in  the  morning?  A.  Their  usual 
starting  hour  is  seven-thirty. 

Q.  They  work  how  late  in  the  afternoon?  A.  We  figure  on  ten  hours 
a day. 

Q.  They  quit  at  what  hour  in  the  afternoon?  A.  Usually  by  six  o’clock, 
it  varies  a little  at  different  times. 

Q.  Do  they  work  ten  hours  on  Saturday?  A.  No,  only  on  Monday. 

Q.  What  is  it,  fifty-four  hours  a week?  A.  It  will  average  approximately 
fifty-four  hours.  On  certain  holiday  seasons  there  are  times  when  we  are  excep- 
tionally busy,  and  they  may  work  more  than  fifty-four  hours  a week. 

Q.  These  girls  are  largely  used  in  ironing?  A.  Ironing  by  machinery. 

Q.  What  is  that  process?  A.  After  the  goods  are  washed,  they  are  shaken 
out,  and  after  they  are  shaken  out  they  are  put  through  our  flat  work  ironers, 
large  ironing  machines. 

Q.  What  do  the  girls  do,  just  feed  them?  A.  Some  of  the  girls  feed 
them,  others  catch  them  as  they  come  out  and  fold  them. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  to  do  that  work  sitting,  is  it?  A.  Not  to  the  best 
advantage,  no. 

Q.  The  girls  all  stand  up?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  on  their  feet  all  day?  A.  If  they  are  on  small  work  they 
can  sit  down,  when  folding  small  pieces ; when  they  fold  the  large  pieces  they 
stand. 

Q.  And  while  they  are  on  that  kind  of  work  they  stand  up  all  the  time,  do 
they,  while  they  are  at  work?  A.  Practically,  yes,  sir.  . 

Q.  They  are  on  their  feet  about  ten  hours  a day?  A.  Nearly  that. 

Q.  They  are  being  paid  six  dollars  a week  for  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  Some  of  them  are?  A.  No,  we  have  no  feeders  that  are  getting  as 
low  as  six  dollars,  but  the  six  dollars  a week  girls  are  the  ones  that  shake  them 
out  before  they  go  through  the  machine. 


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Q.  How  much  do  the  feeders  get?  A.  Usually  seven  or  seven  and  a half. 

Q.  These  six  dollar  girls,  most  of  them  you  say,  are  used  in  shaking  out? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  they  do  that?  A.  Simply  pick  the  pieces  out  as  they  come 
frorn  the  washing  machine,  after  they  have  been  shaken  out,  and  sort  them  out, 
sorting  them  by  themselves,  sheets  by  themselves  and  cases  by  themselves. 

Q.  Do  they  do  that  standing?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Stand  during  the  entire  process?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  remain  standing  for  about  ten  hours  a day?  A.  If  we  are  busy 
all  the  time,  they  are  standing,  but  they  are  not  always  busy. 

Q.  Sometimes  you  are  busy  all  the  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  the  girl  comes  to  work  at  seven  o’clock  in  the  morning;  what 
time  does  she  get  through  to  go  to  lunch?  A.  Usually  at  twelve  o’clock. 

Q.  From  seven  to  twelve  o’clock,  and  if  it  is  a busy  day,  she  is  on  her  feet 
all  the  time  and  does  not  have  any  opportunity  to  rest  at  all  during  that  period 
of  time?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  long  does  she  remain  for  lunch?  A.  Well,  it  varies,  sometimes 
half  an  hour  and  sometimes  an  hour ; it  depends  on  the  plant,  we  will  say  half 
an  hour  for  noon. 

Q.  Where  does  she  get  her  lunch?  A.  She  quite  frequently  brings  it 
with  her ; sometimes  goes  out. 

Q.  She  brings  it  with  her?  A.  I think  the  majority  of  them  bring  it 
with  them. 

Q.  When  they  bring  it  with  them  it  is  cold,  and  thej'  don’t  have  any  coffee? 
A.  They  make  their  own  coffee. 

Q.  In  the  plant?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  furnish  the  coffee?  A.  No,  we  don’t;  they  bring  the  coffee. 

Q.  Do  you  furnish  the  coffee  pots?  A.  In  some  places;  not  as  a rule. 
Each  three  or  four  of  the  girls  bring  their  coffee  pot  and  make  their 
coffee  together;  they  wdll  start  making  it  half  an  hour  before  lunch  time 
to  get  their  coffee  ready  and  preparing  for  the  lunch. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  girls  would  you  say  bring  their  lunch 
with  them  to  work?  A.  Oh,  I should  think  there  w’ould  be  more  than 
fifty  per  cent. 

Q.  Preparing  and  eating  their  lunch  that  takes  either  a half  hour  or 
an  hour?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  they  go  back  to  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  are  on  their  feet  until  the  day  is  up  at  about  six  o’clock 
in  the  evening?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  that  they  get  six  dollars  a week?  A.  Some  are  not  worth 
more  than  that. 

Q.  Why  do  you  say  that?  A.  I don’t  think  the}'  could  go  in  any 
other  line  of  business  and  make  more  than  that;  their  ability  is  not  such, 
as  a rule,  on  the  work  in  that  department  that  they  can  draw  more 
wages. 

Q.  Aside  from  the  matter  of  business,  kir.  Hunger,  looking  at  it  from 
the  standpoint  of  humanity,  do  you  think  it  is  quite  right  that  any  girl 
should  work  ten  hours  a day,  be  on  her  feet  that  length  of  time,  eat  a 
cold  lunch  at  noon,  and  at  the  end  of  that  week  get  less  money'  than  she 
can  decently'  live  upon?  A.  I think  you  have  to  take  into  consideration 
the  law's  of  supply  and  demand.  If  that  girl  could  obtain  no  employment 
elsewhere  at  a better  w'age,  isn’t  she  better  off  at  that  than  doing  nothing? 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  she  is  entitled  to  a living  w'age?  A.  She 
has  plenty,  or  should  have,  to  meet  her  conditions,  if  she  has  ambition, 
and  works  hard.  We  are  anxious  to  get  girls  that  are  ambitious  to  work 
for  us  and  w'e  offer  them  an  opportunity'  to  advance. 

Q.  Let  us  see  what  that  opportunity  is  in  fairness  to  you  and  the 
girl.  The  girl  starts  in  at  about  four  dollars  a week,  does  she?  _A. 
Usually  those  four-dollar  girls — some  sister  of  the  girl  that  works  with 


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685 


us,  they  make  the  request  of  us  that  we  put  their  little  sister  to  work.  We 
would  prefer  not  to  take  them  as  young  as  that. 

Q.  You  think  about  five  dollars  would  be  about  the  minimum?  A. 
Usually. 

Q.  Outside  of  one  or  two,  that  is  the  case?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Apparently  your  maximum  is  about  fifteen  dollars,  because  you 
have  two  or  three  girls  at  that  figure  who  have  been  working  twenty  or 
twenty-five  years  with  you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  The  average  girl,  working  at  six  dollars  a week,  how  long  has  she 
been  in  your  employ?  A.  That  varies;  she  might  have  been  there  two 
weeks,  and  she  might  have  been  there  a year.  If  she  shows  ability,  she 
will  be  advanced  before  that. 

Q.  Have  you  any  girls  at  six  dollars  a week  who  have  been  em- 
ployed longer  than  a. year?  A.  We  might  have,  but  I would  have  to  look 
that  matter  up. 

Q.  Would  you  say  you  had  in  your  employ  any  that  had  been  there 
two  or  three  years?  A.  I doubt  that. 

Q.  Now,  at  six  dollars  and  a half  a week;  have  you  any  girls  work- 
ing at  six  dollars  and  a half  a week  that  have  been  in  your  employ  longer 
than  a year?  A.  No,  not  that  I would  quote  off  hand;  I don’t  believe  so. 

Q.  You  have  thirty-two  at  seven  dollars  a week;  what  would  you  say 
is  the  average  period  of  service  of  those  girls?  A.  I would  judge  that 
the  average  period  of  the  seven  dollar  a week  girls  would  be  well  under 
a year. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  any  girl  working  at  seven  dollars  a week  that  has  been 

in  your  employ  two  or  three  years?  A.  We  have  one  or  two. 

Q.  Have  you  one  who  has  been  in  your  employ  five  years?  A.  I 
don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Four  years?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Then  you  would  say  that  if  a girl  has  shown  ability,  and  is  quick 

to  learn  and  so  forth,  that  after  she  had  been  in  your  employ  a year, 
that  she  ought  to  be  getting  seven  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Or  more?  A.  Yes,  if  she  has  ability  she  would  be  getting  more 
than  that. 

Q.  After  she  gets  seven  dollars  a week,  how  long  would  it  take  her 
to  get  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  It  depends  entirely  on  the  individual 
case,  on  the  ability  of  tbe  girl;  we  are  looking  for  the  better  class  of 
employes  every  time. 

Q.  Can  you  take  a girl  who  starts  in  your  business  green  and  so 
educate  her  that  at  the  end  of  six  months  she  is  able  to  earn  a fairly  good 
wage?  A.  If  a girl  has  ability  sbe  certainly  can;  if  she  has  not  ability, 
she  can’t  do  it  in  six  years  possibly. 

Q.  Suppose  she  had  not  the  ability,  do  you  let  her  go?  A.  We  do, 
or  she  stays  in  one  of  the  minor  positions;  she  does  not  advance. 

Q.  Where  do  the  most  of  these  girls  come  from  that  you  have  in  your 
employ?  A.  A good  many  of  them  come  from  the  south  district,  down 
near  South  Chicago,  out  in  the  Hyde  Park  laundry. 

Q.  They  come  from  poor  homes?  A.  Largely;  there  is  a large  per- 
centage of  them  that  are  Polish;  our  average  girl  gets  eight  dollars  and 
fifteen  cents. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  are  probably  aware  that  we  have  a bill  in 
the  General  Assembly  now  pending  by  tbe  name  of  the  Minimum  Wage 
Scale  Bill?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  that  a girl  can  live  on  and  live  moderately  right 
and  easy?  A.  I don’t  think  that  I am  qualified  to  answer  that  question, 
Senator.  I think  it  varies  in  the  locality  in  which  she  lives. 

Q.  That  is  probably  correct.  Now,  if  the  bill  is  passed  there  will  be 
a commission  formed,  appointed  by  the  governor,  of  three  good  men,  and 


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they  vvill  have  full  say.  We  have  started  on  seven  dollars  and  a half,  and 
that  is  only  subject  of  course  to  amendment;  but  that  is  only  what  we  have 
heard  in  the  past  two  months;  now,  what  would  you  think  a girl  paying 
board,  and  having  a reasonable  amount  of  clothes  and  a good  room — what 
do  you  think  would  be  a fair,  reasonable  wage  for  her?  Now,  understand 
me,  I don’t  mean  to  say  a wage  that  will  enable  her  to  live  extravagantly, 
and  I do  not  mean  that  wage  to  apply  to  beginners.  Of  course,  the  wage 
as  to  them  will  be  fixed  at  a sliding  scale  during  apprenticeship,  and  the 
time  fixed  at  say  six  months  or  a year,  providing  she  is  a good  girl.  A. 
I don’t  think  that  you  can  set  any  definite  scale. 

Q.  You  can’t  set  any  definite  scale,  but  what  would  it  cost  them  to 
live?  A.  It  varies,  absolutely. 

'Q.  Take  it  in  Chicago,  for  instance.  Chicago  is  different  than  the 
southern  part  of  the  state;  it  costs  more  to  live  in  Chicago  than  it  does 
in  any  other  part  of  the  state.  Now,  what  do  you  think  it  costs  in  Chi- 
cago to  a girl  coming  in  from  the  country  and  getting  a job  in  a laundry  or 
a store  or  a factory,  what  do  you  think  that  she  can  pay  board  and  live 
on  reasonably?  A.  I don’t  know;  some  of  them  live  on  five  or  five  and 
a half  or  six  dollars  a week,  and  some  can’t. 

Q.  How  do  the  girls  live  on  that  salary?  A.  We  have  been  told 
that  a great  many  girls  working  for  four  and  a half  a week  were  paying 
three  dollars  and  seventy-five  cents  a week  for  board;  that’s  mighty 
cheap,  isn’t  it?  A.  No,  they  can’t  get  board  for  that. 

Q.  They  do  get  it  for  that,  and  then  they  pay  the  street  car  fare 
morning  and  night,  and  that  takes  all  but  fifteen  cents;  now,  where  is  her 
clothes  coming  from?  A.  There  is  a good  many  of  the  class  of  people 
that  we  employ  that  would  be  glad  to  board  the  girl  to  help  out  the  family 
income  for  less  than  three  dollars^  a week. 

Q.  I don’t  see  at  the  present  cost  of  board,  how  anybody  can  board 
for  less  than  three  dollars  and  a half,  to  get  board  and  room;  that  is  the 
lowest  we  have  found.  A.  Possibly  you  know  more  about  it  than  I do. 

Q.  I ask  you  the  question  for  information.  I want  your  opinion  on 
the  matter.  We  want  to  find  out  your  opinion  because  you  are  posted  and 
know  something  about  it.  We  have  asked  all  the  same  question.  A.  I 
don’t  feel  that  I am  competent  to  answer,  because  the  most  of  our  girls — 
the  vast  majority  of  them — live  at  home. 

Q.  Do  the  girls  ever  complain  about  the  fact  that  they  could  not  live 
on  what  you  are  paying  them?  A.  Possibl3^  I haven’t  had  it  come  to 
my  knowledge,  though. 

Q.  Now,  you  can’t  hire  a man  nowadays  at  less  than  a dollar 
seventy-five  cents  to  two  dollars  and  a half  a daj''  for  common  work? 
A.  We  don’t  employ  a great  manj'  men  for  that  kind  of  work. 

Q.  You  don’t?  A.  No,  we  have  drivers  in  our  employment. 

Q.  You  have  got  men  working  on  the  inside?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  these  men  do?  A.  Usually  we  have  engineers  and 
assistants. 

Q.  Of  course,  they  are  higher  priced  than  the  ordinary  laborers?  A. 
We  haven’t  any  ordinary  laborers;  we  have  some  men  working  in  the 
wash  room. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  these  men  in  the  wash  room?  A.  It  varies  from 
eight  or  nine  dollars  up. 

Q.  Could  the  women  do  that  work?  A.  She  could;  she  does  some- 
times, in  certain  places. 

Q.  Then  if  you  had  a woman  do  that  work,  would  j'^ou  pay  her  the 
same  as  you  are  paying  that  man?  A.  Practically. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Munger,  you  say  that  you  could  not 
afford  to  pay  these  ninety-three  girls  as  much  as  eight  dollars  a week. 
May  I ask  you  how  you  have  arrived  at  that  conclusion?  A.  It  would 
be  suicide  to  the  business. 


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Q.  You  have  consulted  your  books  on  that  in  reaching  that  con- 
clusion? A.  Yes,  but  it  was  not  necessary  to  consult  the  books;  I figured 
by  what  it  would  amount  to. 

Q.  How  much  would  it  amount  to,  according  to  your  figures?  A. 
We  figure  it  would  cost  us,  as  I remember  it  (I  have  not  got  the  figures, 
it  is  just  offhand)  between  six  and  seven  thousand  dollars  a year  to  raise 
that  number  of  girls,  and  that  is  not  taking  into  consideration  the  other 
hands  that  would  have  to  be  raised  as  the  result  of  any  such  raise. 

Q.  For  much  how  is  your  laundry  incorporated?  A.  Fifteen  thou- 
sand dollars. 

Q.  How  much  money  have  you  actually  invested  in  the  business? 
A.  I could  not  tell  you  that;  it  is  invested  in  such  a way  from  time  to 
time  that  we  could  not  keep  track  of  it. 

Q.  After  paying  a reasonable  rate  of  interest  on  the  money  invested 
your  corporation  has  made  a profit  of  less  than  six  thousand  dollars,  an 
annual  profit?  A.  I figured  that,  yes. 

Q.  Do  you  tell  this  Committee  that  the  net  profit  of  your  corporation 
during  the  last  fiscal  year  was  below  six  thousand  dollars?  A.  No,  I 
would  not  say  that. 

Q.  You  would  not  make  that  statement?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  incorporated  for  fifteen  thousand  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  An  eight  per  cent  dividend  is  a good  dividend,  isn’t  it.  Mr.  Hun- 
ger? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Eight  per  cent  on  fifteen  thousand  dollars  would  be  something 
like  twelve  hundred  dollars,  wouldn’t  it?  A.  I suppose  so. 

Q.  Take  six  thousand  dollars,  the  amount  of  money,  according  to 
your  figures,  to  raise  the  wages  of  these  girls  to  a living  wage,  and  add 
your  dividend,  which  would  make  seventy-two  hundred  dollars;  do  you 
now  tell  this  Committee  that  the  annual  net  profit  of  your  corporation 
is  less  than  seventy-two  hundred  dollars?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  make  that  statement?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  desire,  Mr.  Hunger,  for  the  members  of  this  Committee  to 
leave  you  with  the  impression  in  their  mind  that  3'our  profit  is  less  than 
seventy-two  hundred  dollars  a year?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don’t?  A.  No,  I don’t  say  that. 

Q.  Then,  Mr.  Hunger,  I will  ask  you  what  was  the  profit  of  your 
corporation  last  year?  A.  I prefer  not  to  state  that. 

Q.  But  you  will  say  that  it  was  more  than  seventy-two  hundred  dol- 
lars? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Considerably  more?  A.  I prefer  not  to  say  anything  along  those 
lines. 

Q.  Have  you  consulted  counsel  regarding  that?  A.  No,  I haven’t. 

Q.  Do  you  refer  simply  to  this  state  or  to  the  profits  of  all  proper- 
ties of  the  corporation?  A.  I prefer  not  to  state  it;  you  are  not  taking 
into  consideration  that  the  company,  among  other  things,  have  plants  in 
other  states;  the  profits  are  figured  on  the  total  number  of  plants.  You 
are  speaking  on  an  advance  in  wages  of  a certain  state,  or  in  one  state. 
It  would  be  rather  difficult  to  get  at  just  the  figures  that  you  would  want 
there,  and  I would  prefer  not  to  state  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Hunger,  you  have  made  a statement  to  the  Committee 
that  you  could  not  afford  to  give  these  girls  more  money,  and  when  I 
asked  you  for  some  proof  on  your  inability,  you  prefer  not  to  give  it;  how 
do  you  expect  this  Committee  in  its  report  to  do  justice  to  you  as  well  as 
to  the  girls  if  you  fail  to  give  that  information?  A.  Possibly  there  would 
not  be  the  same  objection  to  giving  the  Committee  some  of  the  infor- 
mation that  they  desire  if  they  would  consider  it  confidential. 

Q.  We  cannot  do  that;  that  can’t  be  done,  Mr.  Hunger.  A committee 
of  this  sort  is  composed,  in  a sense,  of  all  of  the  people  of  the  state.  We 
are  passing  upon  questions  of  public  policy,  and  the  people  are  to  decide 
upon  those  questions.  The  theory  of  government  today  is,  as  I under- 
stand it,  to  take  everybody  into  your  confidence  and  play  your  cards  on 


688  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

the  table.  The  people  are  fair-minded  and  they  will  give  you  a fair 
deal  and  we  will  give  the  girls  a fair  deal.  But  this  is  digressing  in  the 
examination.  You  refuse  to  answer  that  question?  A.  I prefer  not  to 
•answer. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  record  will  show  the  refusal.  Senator 
Harris,  have  you  any  questions  to  ask? 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  HARRIS. 

SENATOR  HARRIS;  You  say  your  company  is  incorporated  for  fif- 
teen thousand  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  an  Illinois  corporation?  A.  Y'es,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  profits  of  that  company,  aside  from  the  Missouri  cor- 
poration, and  those  other  corporations?  A.  I could  not  give  it  to  3'ou  off- 
hand; I could  figure  it  up. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  your  girls  work  on  an  average,  a week?  A.  On 
an  average,  they  will  work,  I should  say,  fifty-four  hours.  It  is  necessary  to 
work  more  than  fifty-four  hours  in  certain  periods  of  the  year. 

SENATOR  HARRIS:  But  fifty-four  hours  is  a fair  average? 

THE  WITNESS : That  is  about  what  they  are  working  now. 

Mr.  Maxwell  Edgar’s  Testimony. 

MAXWELL  EDGAR,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  What  is  your  name,  please?  A.  Maxwell 
Edgar. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Attorney-at-law. 

Q.  You  have  devoted  some  time,  Mr.  Edgar,  to  a study  and  an  investiga- 
tion that  has  familiarized  you  with  the  profits  made  by  some  of  the  corpora- 

tions in  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  I run  across  that  in  connection  with  the  suit  which 
we  have  brought  here  in  the  name  of  the  people  of  the  State  of  Illinois. 

Q.  May  I ask  what  corporations  you  have  familiarized  j'ourself  with  in 
that  connection  in  the  way  of  profits?  A.  That,  I might  say,  we  brought  suit 
against  all  the  corporations  doing  business  in  Illinois,  who  were  considered  to 
be  exempt  from  the  payment  of  capital  stock  tax.  We  picked  out  some  twenty- 
five  or  thirty-five  of  those  corporations,  different  corporations,  manufacturing, 
mercantile,  public  printing  and  stock  operating,  and  we  brought  suit  particularly 
against  these  thirty-five,  but  the  bill  was  directed  against  all  the  corporations 
in  Illinois  who  were  subject  to  the  payment  of  capital  stock  tax.  Our  object 
was  to  enforce  the  capital  stock  tax  which  had  remained  a dead  letter  in  Illinois 
for  the  lack  of  enforcement,  for  anywhere  between  tw'entj-  and  thirty-  j'ears. 

Q.  And  in  what  way  did  j'ou  gain  information  regarding  the  profits  of 

the  corporations?  A.  When  we  brought  suit  against  these  thirtj’-five  corpora- 
tions a number  of  them  appeared  by  their  attorneys,  some  fifteen  of  them.  Thej’’ 
answered  the  bill,  all  except  the  National  Box  Company,  which  answered  bj' 
demurrer ; the  demurrer  was  overruled,  and  they  stood  bj'  their  answer  and 
appealed  to  the  Supreme  Court.  The  trial  court  gave  us  a ■writ  of  mandamus, 
and  the  Supreme  Court  affirmed  that  writ.  It  was  then  returned  to  the  Circuit 
Court  here  for  further  proceedings.  The  matter  was  set  before  Judge  Mangan, 
and  he  delayed  the  matter  for  a whole  j'ear ; he  didn’t  seem  to  be  able  to  make 
up  his  mind  one  way  or  the  other.  We  then  found  out  that  we  were  short  of  evi- 
dence. We  had  established  the  law  that  the  capital  stock  law  was  valid,  and  that 
there  was  no  exemption,  but  now  we  have  to  get  the  evidence,  so  I wrote  down 
to  the  Commissioner  of  Corporations,  to  kir.  Cabell,  I think  it  is  kir.  Frank- 
lin McVeagh’s  former  department,  for  the  returns  of  these  corporations  to 
the  Federal  Excise  Tax,  and  they  sent  me  copies  of  the  returns  in  their  of- 
fice from  those  corporations,  sworn  to  bj^  the  various  officers.  They 
afterwards  came  up  to  mj^  office,  or  kir.  Cameron,  my  attorne}',  or 
associate  attornejq  and  demanded  these  papers  back,  and  thej^  were  a 
little  loud  about  it  and  hinted  that  we  had  got  them  wrongful^.  We 
showed  them  the  correspondence  between  ourselves  and  kIr.  Cabell 
to  sho'w  that  we  had  written  for  these  documents  and  the3-  had  been 
sent  to  us,  and  that  ever3Hhing  Avas  done  in  good  faith.  Then  the3'  asked  if 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


689 


we  would  be  good  enough  to  return  them.  We  stated  that  we  would,  provided 
we  could  have  these  documents  at  any  time  that  we  required  them  in  the  Circuit 
Court.  In  the  meantime  we  took  copies  of  them,  and  we  still  have  copies,  and  we 
intend  to  use  them  in  the  suits  when  they  come  up  again.  When  we  took  the 
National  Box  case  before  the  judges  of  the  Circuit  Court,  and  a copy  of  the 
evidence  after  Mangan  had  refused  to  do  anything,  and  after  I had  complained 
that  we  could  not  get  justice,  the  Circuit  Court  first  refused  to  give  us  any 
relief,  and  then  they  seem  to  have  talked  it  over  and  they  sent  it  before  three 
of  the  justices,  and  they  were  with  us  up  to  within  two  days  of  the  time  of  their 
decision.  Then  they  switched  around  and  decided  flat  against  us  on  almost 
every  proposition,  and  we  are  now  taking  that  matter  to  the  Supreme  Court 
again  on  the  theory  that  the  Board  of  Review  ought  to  be  attached  for  contempt 
of  the  Circuit  Court  of  Cook  County,  and  for  contempt  of  the  Illinois  Su- 
preme Court. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Edgar,  what  corporations  were  mentioned  in  the  reports 
i|:  obtained  by  you  from  the  tax  officials  in  Washington?  A.  I have  a list  of 
I them. 

, Q.  Will  you  read  that  list,  Mr.  Edgar?  A.  Armour  & Company,  Butler 
Brothers,  Crane  Company,  Creamery  Package  Manufacturing  Companw  Cudahy 
j Packing  Company,  Diamond  Match  Company,  Elgin  National  Watch  Company, 
Fairbanks  Canning  Company,  The  Fair,  The  Illinois  Brick  Company,  The  Illi- 
nois Steel  Company,  James  S.  Kirk  & Company,  John  V.  Farwell  Company, 
Knickerbocker  Ice  Company,  Libby,  McNeill  & Libby,  Marshall  Field  & Com- 
pany, Morris  Packing  Company,  McAvoy  Brewing  Company,  National  Box 
Company,  N.  K.  Fairbanks  Company,  Peabody  Coal  Company,  Sears  Roebuck 
& Company  of  Illinois,  Sprague,  Warner  & Company,  Swift  & Company,  Union 
Rendering  Company,  W.  D.  Boyce  Company,  Western  Stone  Company,  W.  W. 
Kimball  Company,  Western  Electric  Company. 

Q.  For  what  year  were  those  figures  made?  A.  For  1909  and  1910. 

; Q.  Will  you  state  to  the  Committee  the  annual  profit  of  Marshall  Field 
& Company  during  that  period  as  shown  by  those  figures?  A.  In  1909,  the 
I annual  profit  of  Marshall  Field  & Company — this  is  the  net  profit  as  computed 
by  the  Federal  authorities — was  $4,643,197.98;  for  1910,  the  same  profit  was 
j $4,419,427.81. 

Q.  That  is  the  annual  net  profit?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  Board  of  As- 
I sessors’  full  valuation  of  the  capital  stock  was  $250,000,  which  was  affirmed  by  the 
Board  of  Review ; the  Board  of  Assessors’  full  valuation  for  1910  was  raised 
I to  $600,0000,  and  was  cut  down  by  the  Board  of  Review  to  $250,000. 

j Q.  Will  you  tell  us,  Mr.  Edgar,  what  was  the  annual  net  profit  of  The  Fair 
as  shown  by  these  figures?  A.  The  Fair’s  net  profit  for  1909  was  $1,000,910.44; 

] that  was  for  1909.  For  1910  it  was  $1,136,878.46;  in  1909  the  Board  of  As- 
sors’  full  valuation  of  the  capital  stock  was  $100,000,  which  was  cut  down  to 
I nothing  by  the  Board  of  Review.  In  1910,  the  Board  of  Assessors’  full  valua- 
tion of  the  capital  stock  was  no  assessment,  which  was  confirmed  by  the  Board 
of  Review. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  what  the  annual  profit  was  of  Sears  Roe- 
buck & Company?  A.  This  is  Sears  Roebuck  & Company  of  Illinois — not 
of  New  York  or  New  Jersey.  The  annual  profit  of  Sears  Roebuck  & Company, 
on  which  they  paid  a Federal  tax  for  1909,  was  $6,099,794.61.  That  was  assessed 
by  the  Board  of  Assessors,  the  full  value  of  the  capital  stock  at  $500,000  in 
1911,  which  was  cancelled  by  the  Board  of  Review.  The  profits  for  1910,  was 
$6,606,291.47.  No  assessment,  either  by  the  Board  of  Review  or  the  Board  of 
Assessors  for  capital  stock  in  1912. 

Q.  Marshall  Field  is  a corporation,  is  it,  Mr.  Edgar?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Organized  under  the  laws  of  what  state?  A.  Under  the  laws  of  Illinois. 
Marshall  Field  & Company  incorporated  prior  to  1904,  as  a mercantile  business, 
capital  stock  $6,000,000;  the  full  cash  value  was  $12,000,000.  Tangible  property 
$5,500,000;  net  full  value  of  the  capital  stock  $6,500,000,  and  deducting  $250,000 

the  net  tangible  value  of  the  capital  stock  leaves  $6,250,000.  

Q.  The  corporation  is  for  six  million  dollars?  A.  Yes,  six  million  dollars, 
not  the  capital  stock,  but  the  share  capital.  You  know,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  there 
is  a distinction  between  share  capital  and  capital  stock;  the  capital  stock  is 
^ull  value  of  the  corporation,  tangible,  all  its  assets,  good  will  and  everything. 


690 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


that  is,  in  a legal  sense,  and  the  share  capital,  as  in  this  case,  $6,000,000,  is  the 
amount  of  capital  paid  in  by  the  share  holder. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  net  profit;  what  is  the  difference  between  gross 
profits  and  net  profits?  A.  That  depends  on  the  accounting  a good  deal,  and 
on  the  different  systems  of  bookkeeping  kept  by  the  various  corporations.  There 
is  no  standard  value.  Some  corporations  cut  down  everything  except  what  is 
available  for  dividends,  and  that  is  net  profit ; others,  again,  consider  surplus 
and  depreciation,  and  there  is  no  real  standard  meaning  to  net  profit ; it  all 
depends  on  how  the  books  are  kept. 

Q.  But  in  this  case  the  four  million  dollars,  or  the  four  and  a half 
million  dollars  annual  profit  of  Marshall  Field  & Company  would  be 
available  for  dividends,  is  that  your  understanding,  Mr.  Edgar?  A.  It 
would  be  the  net  profits  as  considered  by  the  Treasury  Department  of 
the  United  States  or  the  legal  department  of  the  United  States.  Now, 
just  what  these  are  I don’t  know  exactly,  but  I know  there  is  a difference. 
They  allow  certain  deductions,  that  is  the  Federal  government  does,  that 
they  don’t  allow  in  Illinois,  and  vice  versa;  for  example,  here  is  Armour 
& Company,  having  a net  profit  in  1909  of  $4,358,488.83;  for  1910,  these  , 
profits  fell  to  $865,266.95.  Now,  either  the  business  of  Armour  & Company 
was  very  much  less  profitable  in  1910  than  it  was  in  1909,  or  they  had 
juggled  their  accounts  to  show  a small  net  profit  in  order  to  escape  the 
excise  tax,  one  of  the  two. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  time  of  an  agitation  against  the  beef  industry 
in  Chicago?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just  about  the  time  they  were  indicted,  I think. 

Q.  That  might  have  had  some  influence  on  it?  A.  Yes,  but  if  you 
compare  that  with  Swift  & Company,  you  don’t  find  the  same  discrepancy; 

they  are  the  only  ones  who  fell  down  so  very  far. 

Q.  Before  we  get  into  that,  kir.  Edgar,  now  Marshall  Field  & Com- 
pany is  incorporated  for  six  million  dollars;  in  1909,  and  again  in  1910, 
the  profit  as  reported  to  the  Federal  government  was  about  four  and 
a half  million  dollars;  that  money  was  available  for  dividends,  and  there- 
fore Marshall  Field  & Company  made  something  like  eighty  per  cent  on 
its  investment  during  those  years?  A.  Perhaps  not  on  its  investment, 
but  on  its  share  capital.  It  may  have  been  that  Marshall  Field  & Com- 
pany had  bonds  or  mortgage  on  that.  There  may  have  been  some  fixed 
debt  that  we  don’t  know  about,  and  the  theory  of  the  Illinois  law  is  that 
the  funded  debt  is  supposed  to  be  added  to  the  share  capital,  and  from 
that  the  fair  cash  value  is  deducted,  and  the  tangible  property,  and  the 

balance  is  the  capital  stock  value  upon  which  taxes  shall  be  assessed 

in  Illinois. 

Q.  For  how  much  is  The  Fair  incorporated?  A.  One  million 

dollars. 

Q.  One  million  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  was  it,  but  the_  cash 

valuation  of  that  is  ten  million  dollars.  The  tangible  property  is  $1,050,000, 
leaving  a net  value  of  $8,950,000  on  which  they  did  pay  fift}'  thousand 
leaving  the  net  value  at  $8,900,000  capital  stock  on  which  no  taxes  have  ever 
been  paid. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  fair  cash  value  is  ten  million  dollars?  A.  Yes, 

sir,  we  think  that  ten  per  cent  is  a fair  dividend;' a department  store  will 

pay  that.  We  think  that  it  could  be  sold  to  an  American  or  a British 
syndicate  for  ten  million  dollars,  and  we  consider  that  the  full,  fair  cash 
market  value  of  The  Fair  is  ten  million  dollars,  and  we  put  it  that  in  our 
bills. 

Q.  That  is  your  own  conclusion?  A.  That  is  our  own  estimation. 

Q.  Are  the  figures  and  books  at  Washington  from  which  these  figures 
were  taken,  open  to  the  public?  A.  No,  there  is  a dispute  about  that. 
When  I was  down  to  Washington  at  the  Lorimer  Senatorial  Investigation 
I called  to  see  Mr.  Cabell,  and  in  talking  to  him  he  said  that  it  was  all 
a horrible  mistake,  that  some  clerk  had  blundered,  and  he  would  not  give 
me,  he  told  me,  any  more  figures.  I wanted  it  for  several  people  here. 
He  stated  that  under  the  Federal  law  a person  held  himself  open  to 
liabilitv  if  he  gave  out  those  figures.  He  asked  me  to  go  and  see  _^Ir- 
Frankfin  McVeagh,  but  I had  known  Mr.  McVeagh  before,  and  I didn’t 


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691 


think  that  I could  get  any  information  out  of  Mr.  McVeagh,  so  I didn’t 
go.  There  is  some  part  in  the  Federal  law  that  prevents  or  prohibits 
anyone  from  giving  out  these  figures,  1 understand.  I said  that  the  law 
was  unconstitutional  and  that  he  ought  to  give  me  these  figures,  because 
we  could  not  collect  our  taxes  in  Illinois  from  these  great  tax-dodging 
corporations,  and  he  said  that  if  he  gave  out  those  figures  that  the  Federal 
government  would  not  be  able  to  collect  its  tax,  because  the  corporation 
would  not  give  the  figures.  1 said  that  the  State  of  Illinois  was  a part 
of  the  United  States  and  was  paying  its  share  for  all  of  these  Federal 
officials  and  collection  agencies,  and  that  they  were  simply  taking  money 
out  of  one  pocket  and  putting  it  into  another,  simply  to  avoid  payment, 
and  there  should  be  no  concealment  between  these  men  and  the  state 
government,  it  is  all  one  government. 

Q.  Were  you  warned  not  to  give  out  these  figures?  A.  No,  I was 
not  warned,  but  he  said  that  a person  laid  himself  liable  if  he  gave  out 
those  figures,  but  that  was  under  a Republican  administration.  Now,  we 
are  under  a Democratic  administration  and  we  are  not  afraid  of  any 
publicity. 

Q.  Do  you  mind  giving  to  the  Committee,  so  it  will  be  of  record, 

your  list  there  complete?  A.  1 could  make  a copy  of  it,  Mr.  Chairman, 

and  give  it  to  you. 

Q.  Will  you  do  that,  Mr.  Edgar?  A.  Yes.  I could  give  you  a 
copy  of  the  abstract  of  record  or  proof  in  the  National  Box  Company 
case  that  has  gone  up  to  the  June  term  and  will  be  decided  some  time 
between  now  and  October. 

Q.  We  desire  to  get  now,  Mr.  Edgar,  at  this  time,  simply  a copy 

of  the  figures  of  the  sworn  profits  given  to  you  by  the  Federal  govern- 

ment. A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  stated  that  the  list  of  profits  given  you  was  in  the  form 
of  a certified  list?  A.  Certified  copy  of  the  lists  at  Washington,  sworn 
copy  given  by  these  corporation  officials. 

Q.  And  you  declare  that  the  figures  you  have  given  us  and  the 
figures  you  will  give  us  in  the  list  are  accurate  according  to  the  figures 
given  you  in  that  certified  list?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL., 

SENATOR  BEALL;  I understood  you  to  say  that  these  parties 
were  paying  no  tax  on  this  capital  stock?  A.  There  was  a few  of  them 
paid;  a great  many  of  them  don’t  pay  anything  at  all. 

Q.  Who  is  it  that  don’t  pay  anything?  Let  us  have  the  ones  that 
don’t  pay  anything?  A.  Here  is  Butler  Brothers,  a very  wealthy  firm, 
was  assessed  by  the  Board  of  Assessors  full  value  of  capital  stock  three 
hundred  thousand  dollars,  and  the  Board  of  Review  cut  that  down  to 
nothing.  Take  the  last  one  on  the  list,  the  W.  W.  Kimball  Company. 
This  is  a very  wealthy  company,  and  their  profits  in  1910  was  $636,622.70. 
The  Board  of  Assessors’  full  valuation  of  the  capital  stock  was  $60,000; 
that  was  wiped  out  by  the  Board  of  Review.  Take  the  Illinois  Steel 
Company:  The  Illinois  Steel  Company’s  profits  in  1910  were  $11,165,839.22. 
They  were  assessed  by  the  Board  of  Assessors  on  $150,000  full  valuation 
of  the  capital  stock,  which  was  confirmed  by  the  Board  of  Review.  Here 
is  The  Fair,  capitalized  at  $1,000,000.  The  Board  of  Assessors’  full 
valuation  of  the  capital  stock  was  $100,000  and  was  cut  to  nothing  by  the 
Board  of  Review,  and  in  1910  their  profits  were  over  a million  dollars, 
and  they  were  not  assessed  at  all  on  the  capital  stock.  A system  of  cor- 
ruption all  the  way  through.  Crane  & Company,  this  is  Mr.  Crane’s 
company;  the  profits  of  that  company  in  1909  were  $2,576,777.58;  the 
Board  of  Assessors’  full  valuation  of  the  capital  stock  was  no  assessment; 
the  Board  of  Review’s  full  valuation  of  the  capital  stock  no  assessment. 
In  1910  the  profits  were  $2,974,334.70;  no  assessment  there  either  years 
by  either  of  the  taxing  boards.  Now,  the  Creamery  Package  Manufactur- 
ing Company;  the  profits  of  that  company  in  1909  was  $230,584.13;  it 
was  assessed  by  the  Board  of  Assessors  at  $100,000,  which  was  wiped 


692  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

out  by  the  Board  of  Review,  and  the  same  thing  occurred  in  1910  when 
the  profits  of  that  company  was  $240,721.34. 

EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  much  obliged  to  you  for  coming 
here  today.  If  you  will  give  us  that  list  of  profits,  we  can  have  our 
reporter  copy  it  and  return  the  list  to  you. 

MR.  EDGAR:  I prefer  to  take  it  back  and  make  a list  of  it.  When 
we  were  in  the  Supreme  Court  with  the  National  Box  Company  case 
we  were  afraid  to  put  that  document  on  file  for  fear  it  would  be  stolen. 
We  kept  it  in  the  safe  and  we  would  not  place  it  on  file. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  don’t  trust  corporations  very  far,  do 
you? 

MR.  EDGAR:  No,  sir,  I have  worked  for  them  and  against  them; 
I know  them. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all.  I thank  you. 

Which  list  was  and  is  in  words  and  figures  as  follows,  to-wut: 


Company. 

Net  profit. 

B.  of  Ass’rs 
full  valuation 

B.  of  Review 
full  valuation 

Armour  & Co. 

(1909) 

$ 4,358,488.83 

capital  stock 
$500,000  (1911) 

capital  stock 
$500,000 

(1910) 

865,266.95 

500,000  (1912) 

500,000 

Butler  Bros. 

(1909) 

1,619,158.23 

300,000 

.000 

(1910) 

2,111,510.88 

500,000 

.000  1 

Crane  Co. 

(1909) 

2,576,777.58 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t 

(1910) 

2,974,334.70 

(( 

a 

Creamery  Pkge. 

(1909) 

230,584.13 

100,000 

.000 

Mfg.  Co. 

(1910) 

290,721.34 

100,000 

.000 

Cudahy  Pkg.  Co. 

(1909) 

230,584.13 

100,000 

100,000  1 

(1910) 

290,721.34 

100,000 

100,000  ! 

Diamond  Match 

(1909) 

1,667,670.12 

No  ass’t 

• No  ass’t  1 

Co. 

(1910) 

1,425.513.30 

1 

Elgin  Nat.  Watch 

(1909) 

669,921.76 

ti 

i 

Co. 

(1910) 

572,138.19 

it 

“ 1 

Fairbanks  Can. 

(1909) 

753,118.86 

500  1911 

500  1 

Co. 

(1910) 

None 

No  ass’t  1912 

No  ass’t  1 

The  Fair 

(1909) 

1,000,910.44 

100,000 

.000 

(1910) 

1,136,878.46 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t 

Illinois  Brick  Co. 

(1909) 

114,116.17 

100,000 

50,000 

(1910) 

93,694.88 

500,000 

50,000  1 

Illinois  Steel  Co. 

(1909) 

8,375,725.25 

150,000 

150,000 

(1910) 

11,165,839.22, 

150,000 

150,000 

Jas.  S.  Kirk  & Co. 

(1909) 

239,002.15 

10,000 

10,000 

(1910) 

138,583.13 

10,000 

10,000  : 

John  V.  Farwell 

(1909) 

405,021.54 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t  'I 

Co. 

(1910) 

534,522.84 

it 

it 

Knickerbocker 

(1909) 

573,189.55 

150,000 

.000  1 

Ice  Co. 

(1910) 

261,156.39 

100,000 

100,000  ! 

Libby,  McNeill 

(1909) 

47,584.13 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t  ! 

& Libby 

(1910) 

Out  of  bus. 

a 

it 

Marshall  Field 

(1909) 

4,643,197.98 

250,000 

250,000  1 

& Co. 

(1910) 

4,419,427.81 

600,000 

250,000 

Morris  Pack’g 

(1909) 

Loss  30,254.67 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t 

Co. 

(1910) 

Loss  14,712.14 

** 

“ 

McAvoy  Brew. 

(1909) 

122,416.09 

(( 

Co. 

(1910) 

147,337.03 

** 

“ 

Nat.  Box  Co. 

(1909) 

91,752.57 

No  ass’t  (1911)  No  ass’t  (1911) 

(1910) 

35,551.09 

$ 1,000  (1912) 

$ 1,000  (1912)  ; 

Public 

Meetings  and 

Testimony 

693 

N.  K.  Fairbanks 
Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

1,354,639.56 

No  data 

100,000 

300,000 

100,000 

100,000 

Peabody  Coal  Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

98,698.07 

150,499.72 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t 

Sears,  Roebuck 
& Co.  (111.) 

(1909) 

(1910) 

6,099,794.61 

6.606,291.47 

500,000  (1911) 
No  ass’t  (1912) 

.000 
No  ass’t 

Sprague,  Warner 
& Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

77,213.57 

311,054.46 

150,000 

No  ass’t 

.000 
No  ass’t 

Swift  & Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

7,769,529.33 

(Missing) 

500,000  (1911) 
500,000  (1912) 

500,000  (1911) 
500,000  (1912) 

LTnion  Rendering 
Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

5,783.63 

823.63 

No  ass’t 

ti 

5,000 
No  ass’t 

W.  D.  Boyce  Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

159,950.24 

184,104.44 

100,000 

No  ass’t 

150,000 
No  ass’t 

Western  Elec.  Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

2.058.866.00 

4.088.208.00 

450.000 

750.000 

450,000 

.000 

Western  Stone 

Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

28,545.15 

21,885.93 

No  ass’t 

No  ass’t 

n 

W.  W.  Kimball 
Co. 

(1909) 

(1910) 

834,709.56 

636,622.70 

tt 

60,000 

200,000 

.000 

Mr.  C.  W.  Gasque’s  Testimony. 

C.  W.  GASQUE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Clarence  W. 
Gasque. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I am  at  the  present  time  auditor  for  F.  W. 
Woolworth  & Company. 

Q.  In  what  line  of  business  is  Woolworth  engaged?  A.  Five  and  ten 
cent  store. 

Q.  You  are  the  auditor  for  the  Chicago  stores?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Exclusively?  A.  All  stores  under  the  jurisdiction  of  our  Chicago 
office. 

Q.  How  many  stores  does  that  include?  A.  A hundred  and  twenty- 
seven. 

Q.  Are  most  of  those  stores  in  Illinois?  A.  Forty-one  of  them. 

Q.  Covering  what  cities?  A.  I think  most  of  them  are,  I can’t  remember 
that  off-hand. 

Q.  What  are  they?  A.  Well,  Alton,  Bloomington,  Chicago  Heights, 
Quincy,  Cairo,  Decatur,  Danville,  DeKalb,  Evanston,  Elgin,  Freeport,  Gales- 
burg, Joliet,  Jacksonville,  Kankakee,  Kewanee,  LaSalle,  Moline,  Peoria,  Pekin, 
Canton,  Rock  Island,  Rockford,  Streator,  Springfield,  South  Chicago,  Waukegan. 
I guess  that  is  all. 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  employed  in  the  series  of  Woolworth 
stores  that  come  under  your  jurisdiction?  A.  I could  not  say  about  twenty- 
five  hundred  or  three  thousand,  I should  say ; somewheres  in  that  neighbor- 
hood. 

Q.  What  is  the  least  amount  of  money  paid  as  a wage  to  any  girl  or  any 
woman  in  any  of  these  stores?  A.  Is  this  in  Illinois,  or  in  any  store? 

Q.  In  Illinois,  if  you  have  it  so  divided.  A.  Why,  I should  say  in 
the  neighborhood  of  about  four  dollars,  in  some  cases. 

Q.  Now,  couldn’t  you  state  positively?  A.  No,  I could  not,  not 
unless  I refer  to  my  records. 

Q.  How  long  will  it  take  to  refer  to  your  record?  A.  Oh,  probably 
an  hour  or  so  to  go  over  them.  There  may  be  exceptional  cases;  there  is, 
may  be,  one  or  two  under  four  dollars,  but  I am  not  positive  whether  there 
are  or  not. 


694  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  You  would  say  there  are  not  very  many?  A.  Oh,  no,  not  very 
many. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage?  A.  In  all  the  stores? 

Q.  In  all  the  stores?  A.  Why,  I can’t  give  you  that  information  just 
now;  that  would  take  a good  deal  of  work;  I was  not  informed  as  to  what 
itiformation  you  wanted.  I was  out  when  the  investigator  called,  and  I 
didn’t  know  what  information  he  wanted. 

Q.  I want  to  ask  you  a few  general  questions  now;  you  have  a store 
at  Springfield,  have  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  higher  wages  in  Springfield  than  you  do  in  Chicago? 
A.  No,  I could  not  say  so. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  higher  wages  in  Chicago  than  you  do  in  Springfield? 
A.  I should  think  they  would  run  about  the  average,  those  two  cities; 
I should  think  Chicago  would  be  a little  bit  higher. 

Q.  How  about  Peoria?  A.  That  is  about  on  a par  with  Chicago. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  But  I should  not  think  the  average  would  be  quite  as 
high  as  Chicago. 

Q.  Who  fixes  the  wages  that  they  pay,  the  wages  in  Peoria  and  Spring- 
field?  A.  The  local  manager. 

Q.  In  the  different  cities?  A.  In  the  different  cities,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  has  full  power  as  to  wages?  A.  Yes,  he  has  full  power  as  to 
wages  and  the  hiring  of  all  female  help. 

■Q.  There  are  no  restrictions  upon  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  No  rules  to  guide  him?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  anything  of  that  nature?  A.  No,  sir;  not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  He  could  pay  a girl  if  he  wanted  to  $10.00  a week?  A.  Well,  I 
suppose  that  he  could. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  rule  limiting  the  maximum  to  be  paid  a girl?  A. 
No,  I do  not. 

Q.  And  you  know  of  no  rule  fixing  a minimum?  A.  There  tvas  a 
rule  years  ago,  I don’t  know  whether  it  is  in  force  or  not,  that  the  minimum 
was  $3.50. 

Q.  You  are  not  prepared  right  now  to  give  us  very  much  information 
about  the  wages  paid  by  the  Woolworth  people?  A.  It  depends  on  what 
information  you  want. 

Q.  I would  like  to  get  tables  showing  the  number  of  women  employed 
by  the  Woolworth  stores  in  Illinois,  your  forty-one  stores,  showing  the 
lowest  wage  paid,  the  number  of  women  receiving  the  lowest  wage  and  then 
a grading  scale  up  to  your  maximum.  A.  On  each  individual  store? 

Q.  No,  collectively.  A.  Collectively? 

Q.  And  also  let  us  know  where  you  pay  the  lowest  wage  and  where 
you  pay  the  highest  wage.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Also  I wish  you  would  bring  a copy  of  any  rules  regarding  the 
employment  of  girls,  rules  that  are  sent  out  to  your  local  managers.  Your 
Peoria  manager  testified,  if  I remember  correctly,  that  there  was  a rule 
fixing  the  maximum  and  the  minimum  wage,  and  that,  as  a matter  of  fact, 
he  didn’t  have  a great  deal  of  power  in  the  matter  of  wages.  I don’t  want 
to  do  your  concern  an  injustice,  but  that  is  my  memory.  I may  be  mistaken, 
but  if  there  are  any  rules  sent  out  to  these  local  managers,  I would  like  to 
get  those  rules.  A.  There  is  none  that  I know  of. 

Q.  Then  you  are  excused.  Can  you  be  here  today  at  3:45  o’clock; 
that  is,  an  hour  from  now?  A.  I think  so,  but  I don’t  think  that  I can  get 
all  of  the  information  at  that  time;  do  you  want  last  week’s  reports? 

Q.  Any  week  within  a recent  period  of  time.  You  prepare  that  and 
appear  before  our  Committee  at  its  next  meeting?  A.  Tomorrow? 

Q.  No,  it  will  be  next  week,  I think.  A.  You  will  let  me  know  when 
that  will  be? 

Q.  Yes,  but  prepare  that  at  once  if  you  will;  you  may  be  excused  for 
the  time  being.  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


695 


Mr.  L.  R.  Steele’s  Testimony. 

L.  R.  STEELE,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  L.  R.  Steele. 

,i  Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  Manager  of  the  Knox  5 and  10-cent 
I store  on  State  Street. 

I Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  employed  in  that  store?  A.  Well, 

‘ we  have  seventy  girls  right  now. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  one  of  those  girls?  A.  Six 
dollars. 

Q.  Six  dollars  is  the  lowest?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest?  A.  Fifteen  dollars, 
j . Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  that  store?  A.  This  is 
’ my  second  year.  ^ 4 

I Q.  During  the  two  years  that  you  have  been  there,  what  has  been  the 
lowest  wage  paid  at  any  time  to  any  girl  employed  there?  A.  Six  dollars. 

Q.  During  that  period  of  time  no  girl  has  received  less  than  $6.00? 
A.  No.  We  made  an  attempt  to  get  girls  at  $5.00,  but  we  could  not  get 
f them. 

I Q.  Tell  us  that.  A.  Well,  our  allowance  for  help  is  not  to  exceed 
, 7 per  cent  of  our  sales,  and  there  are  times  during  the  year  when  business 
i gets  extremely  dull,  in  summer,  occasionally,  and  you  must  try_  to 

I economize,  and  that  was  when  we  tried;  that  was  one  of  the  ways  we  tried, 
but  we  were  not  successful. 

Q.  You  are  given  an  allowance  of  7 per  cent  for  help?  A.  Seven  per 
cent. 

Q.  This  allowance  is  made  by  whom  or  comes  from  where?  A.  That 
seems  to  be  a general  set  rule  of  5 and  10-cent  stores;  that  has  been  my 
experience,  and  I have  been  connected  with  several  of  them. 

Q.  These  people  for  whom  you  work  have  a syndicate  of  5 and  10-cent 
stores?  A.  Yes,  they  operate  106  stores. 

Q.  How  many  stores  have  they  in  Illinois?  A.  I don’t  know  as  I 
can  give  you  that  right  now.  There  would  be  at  Springfield,  one  at  Jack- 
sonville, one  in  Chicago,  and  I don’t  recall  whether  there  is  any  more  than 
that  in  the  State  of  Illinois.  We  operate  principally  East  at  the  present 
time. 

Q.  And  7 per  cent  is  allowed  for  help?  A.  We  are  not  supposed  to 
f exceed  that. 

f Q.  How  much  is  allowed  for  rent?  A.  That  all  depends  on  local 

i conditions. 

[ Q.  There  is  no  rule  regarding  that?  A.  No;  for  instance,  as  rents 

t N are  advancing  on  State  Street  today,  if  it  keeps  on,  they  will  soon  be  20  per 
i cent  of  the  sales,  and  it  will  be  almost  prohibitive,  so  far  as  10-cent  stores 
f are  concerned. 

Q.  There  is  no  rule  so  far  as  rent  is  concerned?  A.  You  can’t  fix 
i a rule. 

Q.  But  there  is  regarding  wages?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  7 per  cent  rule  holds  good  throughout  the  entire  State?  A. 
f Supposed  to;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  rule  regarding  wages?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

, Q.  Any  local  manager  of  any  5 and  10-cent  store  that  you  know  any- 

thing  about  can  exercise  full  authority  in  hiring  girls  providing  he  does 
not  exceed  7 per  cent?  A.  Yes,  that  all  depends  on  the  store.  If  he  has 
charge  of  the  store,  naturally,  he  must  economize  on  the  wages  he  pays  to 
! cover  the  store  profit  if  his  business  is  not  what  it  should  be.  If  business 
is  good,  he  could  pay  good  wages;  in  other  words,  it  is  a business 
proposition. 


696  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  But  in  no  case  is  it  to  exceed  7 per  cent?  A.  Oh,  there  is  lots  of 
cases  where  it  runs  as  high  as  9 per  cent. 

Q-  How  low  have  you  got  it  in  your  store?  A.  My  salary  list  runs  a 
little  over  7 per  cent  last  year. 

Q.  You  have  how  many  girls  employed?  A.  We  have  seventy  girls. 

Q.  And  the  lowest  you  pay  is  $6.00?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  are  working  at  $6.00  a week?  A.  Fifty-two. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  wage  after  $6.00?  A.  Six  and  seven 
dollars. 

Q.  And  the  next  figure?  A.  One  at  $7.50,  and  one  at  $8.00. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  And  four  at  $9.00,  two  at  $10.00,  one  at  $11.00,  one  at 
$12,00,  one  at  $13.00  and  one  at  $15.00,  that  is  seventy,  I think. 

Q.  Out  of  seventy  girls,  fifty-two  work  at  $6.00?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  $6.00  is  about  your  usual  pay?  A.  That  is  what  we  start 
girls  at — $6.00  a week. 

Q.  Now_,  the  girl  getting  $15.00  a week,  how  long  has  she  been  in  the* 
employ  of  this  concern?  A.  I should  say  approximately  three  years. 

Q.  What  has  she  been  doing?  A.  She  works  at  the  music  counter. 

Q.  Why  does  she  get  $15.00?  A.  Because  we  have  not  been  able  to 
get  a young  lady  to  take  charge  of  it  for  less  money. 

Q.  That  work  requires  a sort  of  expert?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  girls  that  work  for  $6.00,  fifty-two  of  them,  how  long  have 
they  been  in  your  employ?  A.  I should  judge  probably  twelve  out  of 
the  fifty-two  might  have  been  there  for  six  months;  the  rest  of  them  may 
be  floaters. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  floaters?  A.  They  might  stay'  a week  or  two 
weeks,  and  they  might  be  in  the  store  two  hours  and  we  catch  them  steal- 
ing, and  discharge  them. 

Q.  Do  you  find  that  happens  quite  often?  A.  I should  say  so. 

Q.  It  does?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  had  one  girl  at  Christmas  time, 
she  reported  in  the  morning  and  by  11  o’clock  she  had  gotten  away  with 
$42.00. 

Q.  Did  you  discharge  her?  A.  We  didn’t  even  see  her  go  out  of  the 
door. 

Q.  What  were  your  total  losses  from  stealing  last  y'ear?  A.  Well,  1 
don’t  know  just  exactly  what  the  total  would  be,  but  from  stealing  by  the 
general  public  and  clerks,  losses  of  every  character,  they  exceed  5 per  cent 
of  the  sales. 

Q.  They  exceed  5 per  cent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  you  took  5 per  cent  out  and  added  it  to  the  salaries;  would 
that  lessen  the  loss?  A.  It  might  lessen  it  probably  1 or  2 per  cent. 

Q.  You  think  it  would  lessen  the  loss?  A.  Yes,  but  I am  not  able 
to  say  that. 

Q.  Then,  in  your  judgment,  some  of  these  girls  who  are  getting  less 
than  a living  wage,  who  are  getting  $6.00  a week,  steal  to  live?  A.  1 
would  not  say  that  of  all  of  them;  I would  say  some  of  them  did. 

Q.  You  would  say  some  of  them  do?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I don’t  know 
whether  they  steal  to  live,  but  we  have  had  two  cases  recently'  where  two 
girls  were  stealing  from  us  to  keep  what  they  termed  their  sweethearts. 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that.  A.  Well,  one  girl,  we  caught  her  stealing,  and 
actually'  found  that  she  was  giving  her  money'  to  some  man  she  had;  the 
other  girl,  who  was  chumming  with  her,  found  out  about  it  and  she  started 
to  steal  to  give  money  to  her  friend.  We  brought  the  matter  before  the 
authorities,  and  we  were  criticised  because  we  paid  the  girls  $6.00  a week. 

Q.  How  old  were  these  girls?  A.  Probably  nineteen  y'ears  old. 

Q.  How  long  had  they  been  in  y'our  employ'?  A.  Not  over  three 
weeks. 

Q.  How  did  they  come  to  your  notice?  A.  Just  caught  them  de- 
liberately stealing. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


697 


* Q.  No,  I mean  when  you  employed  them,  how  did  they  come  to  you? 

[ A.  They  came  in  and  applied  for  a position. 

j Q.  In  answer  to  a want  ad.?  A.  No,  just  came  in  and  applied  for  a 

J position;  50  per  cent  of  our  girls  don’t  stay  long  enough  to  keep  the  store 
|;  properly  filled  with  clerks,  so  we  are  always  in  need  of  help, 
f Q.  When  they  come  in  looking  for  a job,  do  they  fill  out  any  applica- 

■ tion  blank?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  fill  out;  what  do  they  have  to  state  in  the  blank?  A. 

■ She  gives  the  name  of  her  father  and  mother,  how  long  she  attended  public 
school  and  where  she  worked  at  last  and  three  references;  usually  the 

; references  they  give  are  fictitious, 
f Q.  Do  you  ever  look  them  up?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  How  often?  A.  We  make  an  attempt  to  look  all  the  girls  up. 

Some  of  them  don’t  stay  long  enough  for  us  to  look  them  up. 

' Q.  Before  putting  a girl  to  work  will  you  look  up  her  references?  A. 

We  are  supposed  to  look  them  up  right  away;  we  have  a young  man  who 
is  supposed  to  look  a girl  up  right  away. 

Q.  Suppose  a girl  hasn’t  a father  and  has  not  a mother,  you  take  her^ 
! anyway,  don’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  That  is,  you  don’t  care  whether  she  is  entirely  self-dependent  or 

not?  A.  No,  that  doesn't  enter  into  the  proposition  at  all. 

I Q.  In  other  words,  you  want  to  get  girls  at  $6.00  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  And  what  they  do  with  the  $6.00,  and  whether  they  live  on  it,  is 

j their  own  concern?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

t Q.  Well,  you  are  frank  and  honest  with  us,  anyway.  A.  Yes,  it  is  a 
commercial  proposition  with  us. 

Q.  Some  of  the  witnesses  before  us  have  told  us  that  they  didn’t  like 
I to  take  these  girls  unless  they  were  thoroughly  satisfied  that  they  were 
living  at  home.  A.  That  is  a good  rule,  but  we  have  applications  or  re- 
I quests  from  the  largest  firms  in  the  city  on  the  same  girls  that  we  have 
' lost  from  the  store. 

i Q.  You  don’t  think  it  really  makes  any  more  difference  with  them 

■ than  it  does  with  you?  A.  No,  I do  not. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  the  5 and  10-cent  stores  are  largely  used  as  a 
school  for  education  for  the  larger  retail  places?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  reason  that  you  cannot  keep  them,  cannot  keep  your  help 
J longer,  is  because  when  they  get  a little  skilled  they  go  into  the  larger 
j stores?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

; CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  this  witness  has  been  very  honest 

■ with  us. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  It  looks  like  it. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  He  has  given  us  good  information.  Senator 

[Beall,  do  you  want  to  ask  any  question? 

; SENATOR  BEALL:  He  looks  all  right  to  me. 

* SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  the  5 and  10-cent  stores  pay  less  wages 

i;  than  the  other  stores?  A.  We  don’t  aim  to. 

M Q.  _ But  the  girls  would  rather  work  in  the  larger  stores?  A.  Yes, 
I?  that  is  it. 

■I  Q.  At  the  same  wages?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  any  harder  work  in  the  5 and  10-cent  stores  than  in  the  other 
):  stores?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

'j  SENATOR  TOSSEY:  That  is  all. 

‘ SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Steele,  what  would  you  think  of  a gradu- 
ated  scale;  we  have  a bill  in  the  Legislature  and  we  want  information  from 
^1  such  men  as  you,  how  do  you  think  that  would  act?  In  other  words,  you 
il  know  about  what  a girl  can  live  on.  Now,  what  do  you  think  would  be  a 
[(  good  minimum  wage  to  start  off  at;  what  do  you  think  is  a good  minimum 
wage  after  a girl  has  worked  six  months  or  a year  and  proved  herself  good 
i|  and  faithful,  what  do  you  think  of  a minimum  wage  of  that  kind  all  over 


698  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  I 

the  State,  and  what  do  you  think  the  wage  should  be?  A.  I think  it  would  j 
be  a good  thing  for  50  per  cent  of  the  girls;  for  the  other  50  per  cent  it  : 
would  not  help.  ' 

Q.  Take  a girl  you  put  in  at  $5.00  a week;  at  the  end  of  six  months 
you  know  whether  she  is  a good  girl  or  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  that  girl  be  worth  a minimum  price  of,  say,  $7.00  or  $7.50?  ? 
A.  Our  average  is  $7.94.  ' 

Q.  Suppose  you  keep  a girl  there  for  six  months;  at  the  end  of  six 
months  you  know  whether  she  is  a good  girl  for  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  end  of  that  six  months  would  you  be  willing  to  pay  a 
minimum  wage  scale  of  the  same  price?  A.  I would;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  end  of  six  months,  if  she  was  not  a good  girl,  j^ou  would 
let  her  go?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  your  idea  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  How  would  it  affect  your  business  to  give  a 
minimum  wage  of  $7.50?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  as  it  would  affect  us  1 
any  in  Chicago. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  would  work  them  all  in  as  apprentices?  | 
'A.  No,  I would  not  work  them  all,  but  about  50  per  cent  of  them  would  j 
fall  in  under  the  apprenticeship  rule,  but  that  would  be  their  own  fault  if  i 
they  didn’t  remain. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  your  girls  work;  that  is,  on  the  average?  A.  i 
About,  on  the  average,  nine  hours  a day,  fifty-four  hours  a week. 

Mr.  Louis  F.  Swift’s  Testimony. 

LOUIS  F.  SWIFT,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  , 
first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Louis  F.  Swift. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Packing  business. 

Q.  You  are  connected  with  what  concern?  A.  Swift  & Company. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  your  connection?  A.  Onlj'  the  president. 

Q.  Only?  A.  That’s  all. 

Q.  As  president  of  that  concern,  Mr.  Swift,  you  are  familiar  with  the 
wages  paid  to  girls  and  women  there  employed?  A.  Just  in  a general  way; 

I don’t  know  of  the  details;  but  I know  in  a general  wa3^ 

Q.  How  many  girls  and  women  are  emplo3'ed  by  3'our  company?  A. 
Can  I refer  to  a memorandum  I have? 

Q.  Yes,  of  course.  A.  Six  hundred  and  ninet3'-five  women  and  girls. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage,  klr.  Swift,  paid  to  any  of  those  six  hun- 
dred and  ninety-five  women  and  girls?  A.  Six  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Six  dollars  a week  is  3^our  lowest  wage?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  man3r  are  employed  at  that  rate — at  $6.00?  A.  Fourteen. 

Q.  Have  3^00  a table  there,  Mr.  Swift,  of  the  wages  paid?  A.  _Y’ell, 
this  table  says  that  the  average  of  these  695  women  and  girls  is  $10.05,  but, 
now,  this  includes  office  help;  there  is  two  divisions,  you  know. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Of  course,  office  help  is  higher?  A.  Yes,  I 
have  got  that  in  here. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  There  are  fourteen  at  $6.00?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  next?  A.  I haven’t  an3'  other  table  except  the  average. 

Q.  Of  the  695  women  and  girls,  Mr.  Swift,  how  man3^  are  paid  less  than 
$8.00  a w'eek?  A.  I have  not  got  it  figured  that  way.  I have  got  the  office 
women  by  themselves,  and  then  the  plant  help  separate. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  at  the  plant,  the  average  wage?  A.  There  is 
399  of  them  averaging  $7.59  a week. 

Q.  The  average  is  $7.59?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  those  girls  and  women  doing,  Mr.  Swift,  in  the  plant? 

A.  Well,  different  things;  the  majorit3"  of  the  work  is  that  the3'  work  in 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


699 


the  butterine  factory,  and  they  work  in  the  soap  factory,  and  they  wrap 
the  cakes  of  soap,  and  a few  of  them  work  in  the  sausage  department  trim- 
ming meat,  and  there  are  quite  a good  many  of  what  we  call  egg  candlers, 
you  understand  what,  that  is? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Examining  eggs?  A.  Yes;  holding  them  up  to 
the  light. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  The  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  them  is 
$6.00  per  week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  average  wage  is  what?  A.  The  average  is  $7.59  per  week. 
I don’t  know,  some  of  them  make  as  high  as  $14.00  and  $15.00  a week,  a 
few — not  a great  many. 

Q.  How  many  hours  do  they  work,  Mr.  Swift?  A.  About  fifty  hours 
on  the  average. 

Q.  A week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  stand  up  most  of  the  time?  A.  Well,  we  let  them  sit 
down  wherever  possible;  they  sit  down  most  of  the  time,  but  in  a few  cases 
they  stand. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea,  Mr.  Swift,  as  to  the  lowest  amount  that  a 
woman  or  girl  can  live  on  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  I think  that  would 
be  pretty  difficult  to  tell. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  conduct  an  investigation  to  ascertain?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  an  employer  has  some  moral  responsibility  to 
conduct  such  an  investigation?  A.  Yes,  that  might  be  a very  good  thing. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  low  wages,  Mr.  Swift,  has  anything  to  do  with 
immorality  either  directly  or  indirectly?  A.  It  is  my  opinion  that  the  rela- 
tion is  very  slight. 

Q.  To  what  one  cause  would  you  attribute  immorality,  or  to  what  one 
cause  above  others?  A.  Oh,  I don’t  think  I could  say. 

Q.  You  have  no  opinion  on  that?  A.  No,  I have  no  definite  opinion. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  bad  housing  conditions  has  something  to  do 
with  immorality?  A.  I should  think  it  might;  I should  think  that  a girl’s 
home  life  had  a good  deal  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Home  life,  in  a measure,  is  dependent  upon  money,  isn’t  it?  A.  I 
suppose  it  is,  some. 

Q.  The  money  that  is  paid  the  girl  or  the  father?  A.  Some  relation, 

yes. 

Q.  Now,  girls  working  for  $6.00  a week,  girls  and  women  that  are 
working  for  your  company,  where  do  they  live,  most  of  them?  A.  A good 
many  in  that  neighborhood  around  Forty-seventh  Street  and  Ashland  Ave- 
nue; there  is  quite  a residence  district  in  there.  It  is  about  half  a mile 
away. 

Q.  What  are  the  housing  conditions  in  that  district?  How  would  you 
describe  them?  A.  I don’t  know  as  I am  competent  to  judge,  but  I should 
think  it  would  compare  favorably  with  any  manufacturing  or  any  factory 
district;  they  are  pretty  good  houses. 

Q.  Has  your  company  or  any  other  company  in  a similar  line  of  busi- 
ness ever  made  an  effort  not  only  to  make  that  district  compare  favorably 
with  similar  districts,  but  have  you  ever  made  an  effort  to  make  that  the 
best  district  of  its  kind  anywhere?  A.  Well,  we  have  done  considerable 
in  a general  way;  we  have  subscribed  to  association  houses  and  are  doing 
what  we  can  in  that  way.  We  give  a good  deal  of  attention  to  the  care  of 
the  girls  and  women  on  the  plant,  to  their  working  conditions;  they  have 
been  improved  a great  deal  in  the  last  two  years,  and  we  are  still  improving 
them. 

Q.  Would  you  say,  Mr.  Swift,  that  $8.00  a week  is  an  excessive  amount 
for  a girl  or  woman  to  spend  on  her  own  existence,  her  bed,  a few  meals  a 
day  and  some  clothing?  A.  That  does  not  look  excessive,  no  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  $8.00  a week  would  be  about  a fair  minimum? 
A.  Well,  I could  not  exactly  say  that  I think  it  would  be  a fair  average. 

Q.  Admitting  that  it  is  a fair  minimum,  why  should  an  employer  pay 
399  girls  less  than  that  minimum?  A.  Why,  I suppose  there  is  standard 


700 


Report  op  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


wages.  I suppose  they  pay  somewhat  on  the  standard  of  the  localitj'  and  ■ 
of  the  city. 

Q.  What  fixes  the  wages  that  you  pay  the  girl?  A.  The  standard  of 
tiie  city,  I suppose,  to  some  extent. 

Q.  Then  the  girls’  value  is  based  upon  the  use  that  the  employers  ’ ; 
have  for  their  services?  A.  Not  altogether.  It  is  in  connection  with  the 
girl’s  ability  herself  and  the  ability  of  what  the  department  can  afford  to 
pay;  the  three  things,  I should  say,  have  to  go  together. 

Q.  What  department,  if  any,  do  you  employ  the  majority  of  these  ■ 
girls  in,  or  are  they  scattered  around  pretty  generally  among  the  depart- 
ments? A.  Pretty  generally  scattered. 

Q.  Have  you  any  departments  at  your  plant  that  are  losing  monej-? 

A.  At  times  they  do.  I 

Q.  Year  in  and  year  out  do  they  lose  money,  Mr.  Swift?  A.  Well,  I i 
don’t  think  so,  not  continuously. 

Q.  Is  Swift  & Company  losing  money?  A.  No,  sir;  but  w'e  have  had  { 
departments  that  lost  money  continually,  that  were  closed  down  by  the  i 
company. 

Q.  How  much  would  it  cost  you,  Mr.  Swift,  to  establish  the  rule  in  t 
your  place  of  business  that  no  girl  or  no  woman  in  your  employ  there  j 
should  get  less  than  $8.00  a week,  a reasonable  living  wage;  how  much  J 
would  that  cost  you  a year?  A.  In  Chicago  alone? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  It  might  be  about  $20,000  a year,  perhaps.  j 

Q.  Are  the  profits  of  Swift  & Company  in  excess  of  $20,000?  A.  Yes.  ; 

Q.  What  were  your  profits  last  year,  Mr.  Swift?  A.  In  Chicago? 

Q.  Yes,  in  Chicago.  A.  We  don’t  keep  them  separate;  the  whole  5 
company  is  all  combined. 

Q.  And  roughly  speaking,  what  would  you  say  they  are  in  Chicago? 

A.  I could  not  figure  that  out.  Governor  O’Hara. 

Q.  What  were  the  profits  all  told  last  year?  A.  We  paid  7 per  cent 
dividends  on  our  capital  stock  and  had  about  4 per  cent  left  over  to  the 
surplus  account. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : How  much  is  your  company  capitalized  at? 

A.  Seventy-five  million  dollars. 

Q.  About  11  per  cent?  A.  Yes,  about,  but,  of  course,  Chicago  is  a 
small  portion  of  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  You  could  establish  a minimum  living  wage 
without  hurting  your  business,  without  increasing  the  cost  to  the  con- 
sumer of  your  products?  A.  I could  not  say  that;  I suppose  the  cost 
would  go  on  to  the  product  as  small  as  it  is;  I suppose  it  would  have  to 
be  paid  by  somebody.  It  might  come  out  of  the  profits. 

Q.  Wouldn’t  you  be  willing  to  pay  out  of  j'our  own  pocket,  !Mr.  Swift, 
$20,000  a year  to  bring  a little  hope  into  the  existence  of  399  girls  that 
are  building  up  your  business  for  you?  A.  I would  like  to  improve  their 
condition.  I would  like  to  improve  the  men’s  condition,  too;  the  laboring 
men;  they  have  their  troubles,  too. 

Q.  Yes,  that  is  up  to  you.  The  State  at  this  time  cannot  enact  a 
minimum  wage  law'  for  men,  but  the  State  can  for  w'omen — pretty  soon,  I 
think,  the  State  will  get  around  to  a minimum  wage  for  men.  A.  M'ell, 
we  will  try  to  conform  -with  any  law  that  the3r  make,  and  do  it  cheerfulh-. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Swift,  I suppose  that  3-ou  are  aware  that 
we  have  a bill  now  before  the  General  Assemblj- — a minimum  wage  scale 
bill?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  As  the  bill  calls  for  now,  there  will  be  a commission  of  three 
appointed  to  look  after  these  matters.  Now,  we  started  on  a basis  of 
$7.50  a week  for  girls.  Of  course,  an  apprentice,  for  the  first  six  months, 
probably,  wdll  be  graded  up;  do  you  think  if  this  law  was  passed  to  make 
$7.50  that  it  W'Ould  be  a good  thing  or  a bad  thing  for  }-ou  to  pa^-  it  ou*- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


701 


of  the  profits  that  you  are  making-  in  your  business?  A.  What  is  that 
( question  again?  9i 

Q.  The  question  is:  if  they  pass  this  minimum  wage  scale  law  of 
$7.50  a week;  that  is,  pay  the  girls  that  are  working  there  for  six  months 
or  a year,  the  first  six  months  her  salary  would  be  graded  possibly  as  an 
1 apprentice,  but  after  she  has  been  there  a year,  say,  or  six  months,  if  the 
girl  is  a good  girl,  out  of  the  profits  of  your  concern  could  you  stand  to 
pay  these  girls  $7.50  or  $8.00  a week?  There  will  be  a State  law,  and  all 
of  you  people  in  the  business  will  be  equal,  and  there  will  be  no  cutting 
on  prices  and  going  from  one  to  the  other  because  there  are  better  wages 
at  one  place  than  another;  now,  don’t  you  think  it  would  be  better  for  all 
concerned?  Don’t  you  think  it  would  be  a good  thing?  A.  It  would  be  a 
I good  thing  for  a majority  of  the  girls,  perhaps;  I guess,  half  of  the  girls. 

Q.  The  bad  ones  you  would  not  keep  after  six  months?  A.  Some 
of  them  are  not  as  competent  as  others. 

Q.  Do  you  think  those  girls  could  live  on  $4.00  or  $5.00  a week? 
A.  No. 

Q.  We  are  trying  to  help  the  girls,  and  I believe  you  are  trying,  too. 
A.  We  have  helped  them  a good  deal. 

Q.  Yes,  and  I am  glad  to  hear  it.  Do  you  think  that  $7.50  would 
! be  a fair  minimum  wage  for  us  to  put  in  a bill  of  that  kind,  or  what  do  you 
think  is  right?  We  want  to  learn.  You  have  had  the  experience,  and  you 
" know  more  about  it  than  we  do.  A.  Well,  that  don’t  look  very  unreason- 
,,  able.  I don’t  know  what  effect  it  would  have  in  Illinois  if  Illinois  does  it 
: and  the  other  states  do  not. 

' CHAIRMAN  OHARA;  Mr.  Swift,  your  concern  is  one  of  the  Big 
1 Four,  popularly  known  in  the  packing  industry  as  the  Big  Four?  A.  They 
call  it  that  sometimes,  but  I never  knew  of  a reason  for  it. 

; Q.  This  $75,000,000  capital,  is  it  all  paid  in?  A.  Every  cent.  There 
I!  is  not  $1.00  for  trade  mark,  good  will  or  any  other  excessive  charges  of 
' any  kind  on  the  books.  That  is  all  the  company  averages  to  earn,  is  this 
10  or  11  per  cent,  if  they  have  good  luck. 

Mr.  M.  D.  Harding’s  Testimony. 

M.  D.  HARDING,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  M.  D.  Harding. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Superintendent  for  Armour  & Company. 
;!  Q.  Eor  the  Chicago  plant?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

I Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  employment  of  women  in  that  plant? 

|j  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  women  and  girls  are  employed  there?  A.  Eight  hun- 
I dred  and  forty. 

j Q.  What  is  the  lowest  weekly  wage  paid  to  any  one  of  these  women 

||  or  girls?  A.  Five  dollars  a week  is  the  lowest. 

■ Q.  How  many  are  paid  $5.00?  A.  Ten. 

Q.  What  is  the  next  lowest  wage?  A.  Eleven  fifty. 

Q.  They  jump  from  $5.00  to  $11.50?  A.  No,  we  go  up,  the  hourly 
rate  is  lll4  cents  an  hour;  most  of  our  girls  work  on  the  hourly  basis, 

ij  Q.  Some  of  these  girls  are  paid  $5.00  a week?  A.  No,  they  are  on 

■ the  hourly  basis,  too. 

j Q.  How  much  are  they  paid?  A.  Eight  and  one-third  cents  an  hour. 

I Q.  The  next  highest  scale  is  what?  A.  The  next  highest  scale  is 

I 10  cents. 

' Q.  Ten  cents  an  hour?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

jj  Q.  What  is  the  next  highest  scale?  A.  Eleven  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  And  the  next?  A.  Eleven  and  two-thirds  cents  an  hour. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Then?  A.  Twelve  and  a half  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  Then?  A.  Thirteen  and  a half  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  The  next?  A.  Fourteen  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Fifteen  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Sixteen  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  From  16  cents  it  goes  how  high?  A.  To  cents  an  hour. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  employed  at  8 1-3  cents  an  hour?  A.  Ten. 

Q.  At  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  Three  hundred  and  eleven. 

Q.  At  11  cents  an  hour?  A.  One. 

Q.  At  112-3  cents  an  hour?  A.  Forty-nine. 

Q.  At  12J/4  cents  an  hour?  A.  Seventy-seven. 

Q.  At  I3y2  cents  an  hour?  A.  Five. 

Q.  At  14  cents  an  hour?  A.  Eight. 

Q.  At  15  cents  an  hour.  A.  Six.  The  balance  are  piece  workers;  we 
have  got  a number  of  girls  working  at  piece  work. 

Q.  On-  your  last  week’s  pay  roll,  Mr.  Harding  what  was  the  lowest 
amount  paid  to  any  girl  for  a full  week’s  work?  A.  I could  not  tell  you 
about  last  week’s  pay  roll. 

Q.  Well,  the  week  before?  A.  I could  not  tell  you  of  the  week 
before,  but  for  the  average  ten  weeks  last,  the  lowest  paid  any  girl  was 
$4.80  for  an  average  of  ten  weeks. 

Q.  Being  an  average  of  ten  weeks?  A.  The  lowest  paid  was  $4.80; 
that  was  the  case  where  a girl  didn’t  work  full  time. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  full  time?  A.  Sixty  hours. 

Q.  Sixty  hours  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  a girl  is  paid  $6.00  a week,  for  that  she  works  sixti”"  hours?  A. 
It  all  depends  upon  her  hourly  rate. 

Q.  But  the  average  that  you  have?  A.  Our  average  rate  was  $7.19 
for  the  844  girls. 

Q.  You  have  311  girls  working  at  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  do  those  girls  do?  A.  Various  works;  some  label  cans, 
some  trim  sausage  meat,  some  w'ork  in  dried  beef  chipping  (the  chipped 
beef  department),  some  put  sliced  bacon  in  cartons,  some  pack  butter  in 
cartons,  some  wrap  butter  and  some  break  eggs  in  the  egg  room. 

Q.  They  go  to  work  at  what  time  in  the  morning?  A.  Seven  o’clock. 

Q.  What  time  do  they  go  to  lunch?  A.  Twelve  o’clock. 

Q.  Have  half  an  hour  off?  A.  Half  an  hour. 

Q.  Where  do  they  get  their  lunch?  A.  All  over  our  plant,  in  four 
or  five  different  places  we  have  lunch  rooms. 

Q.  Do  you  serve  lunch  there  all  da}-?  A.  No,  sir;  we  serve  coffee  for 
1 cent  a cup;  most  of  the  girls  bring  their  own  lunch  and  get  just  the 
coffee.  In  each  one  of  our  departments  we  have  a rest  room,  presided 
over  by  a matron,  where  these  girls  can  go  and  eat  their  lunch  and  rest 
during  the  noon  hour. 

Q.  At  12:30  o’clock  they  go  back  to  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  do  they  quit?  A.  Five  thirty. 

Q.  Are  they  on  their  feet  the  most  of  the  time?  A.  A large  per- 
centage of  our  girls,  65  to  70  per  cent  are  doing  work  where  they  can  sit 
down;  the  other  percentage,  30  to  35  per  cent,  are  on  work  where  they 
can  sit  down  if  they  desire;  there  are  seats  provided  for  them.  The  girls 
in  the  canning  room,  the  chipped  beef  department,  the  egg  rooms,  the 
butter  rooms — their  work  is  such  that  they  can  sit  down. 

Q.  That  leaves  about  35  per  cent  that  cannot  sit  down?  A.  They  can 
sit  down  if  they  want  to,  but  it  is  not  quite  so  convenient  as  it  is  in  the 
other  departments;  trimming  sausage  meat  they  have  to  stand  up  when- 
ever they  do  the  trimming. 

Q.  Let  me  ask  you,  hir.  Harding,  would  the}'-  hold  their  jobs  very 
long  if,  while  at  work,  instead  of  standing  up,  they  were  to  sit  down?  A. 


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703 


We  never  object  to  a girl  sitting  down.  I never  have,  and  no  foreman  ever 
did;  we  don’t  mind  them  resting  at  all. 

Q.  I want  to  understand  you  clearly.  You  say  that  65  per  cent  are 
doing  work  where  they  can  sit  down?  A.  Sixty-five  to  75  per  cent. 

Q.  I want  to  know  what  the  other  35  or  25  per  cent  do?  A.  Trim 
sausage  meat. 

Q.  And  they  are  expected  to  stand  up?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  do  these  girls  live?  A.  Well,  I could  not  tell  you  exactly; 
the  bulk  of  them  live  between  Halsted  Street,  Western  Avenue  and  from 
Forty-seventh  Street  south. 

Q.  How  are  conditions  in  the  neighborhood  in  which  they  live?  A. 
In  what  respect? 

Q.  Are  the  housing  conditions  good?  A.  Well,  we  have  a welfare 
department  in  our  plant  that  is  presided  over  by  the  Visiting  Nurses’ 
Association.  They  have  a representative  at  our  plant;  we  furnish  the 
office  and  certain  rooms  for  her,  and  she  visits  the  homes  of  all  of  our 
girls  who  are  absent  from  duty  to  see  if  they  are  sick  or  ill,  or  the 
reason  that  they  are  not  working.  She  goes  right  into  their  homes.  If 
she  finds  a case  that  she  thinks  we  ought  to  know  about  she  reports  it  to 
us.  If  it  is  a case  that  requires  medicine  we  see  that  they  are  taken 
care  of. 

Q.  Are  the  majority  of  these  girls  native  Americans?  A.  No,  sir; 
they  are  mostly  foreign  born. 

Q.  Born  in  what  country?  A.  Well,  the  largest  percentage  of  them 
are  Lithuanians,  Slavs,  Bohemians,  Servians  and  Polish. 

Q.  Are  they  organized  into  a union?  A.  I don’t  know  anything 
about  that. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  connected  with  Armour  & Company? 
A.  One  year. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  girls  out  there  were  ever  organized 
into  a labor  union?  A.  Not  that  1 know  of;  I have  been  in  the  stock 
yards  twenty-three  years,  but  I never  knew  that  the  girls  were  organized 
into  a union. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  it  is  true  or  false  that  organized  girls 
on  piece  work  used  to  make  $18.00  a week  for  the  very  work  that  you  are 
now  paying  these  girls  $6.00  a week?  A.  Never  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  if  that  organization  was  broken  up  and  the 
places  of  those  girls  filled  with  cheaper  foreign  labor?  A.  No,  sir;  not 
to  my  knowledge,  not  during  my  time. 

Q.  What  would  you  say,  Mr.  Harding,  is  the  lowest  amount  upon 
which  a girl  can  decently  live  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  Well,  I am 
not  competent  to  judge  on  that  particular  point;  I would  not  want  to 
say;  it  all  depends  upon  their  environments  and  their  desires. 

Q.  If  you  had  a girl  that  you  thought  a good  deal  of,  a sister  or  a 
daughter,  you  would  not  want  her  to  try  it  on  very  much  less  than  $8.00 
a week?  A.  I have  lived  and  supported  my  mother  and  two  brothers  on 
$5.00  a week. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  Oh,  that  has  been  twenty-five  years 
ago.  I got  $5.00  a week  for  three  years;  I was  the  only  support  of  my 
mother  and  two  smaller  brothers. 

Q.  Was  that  in  Chicago?  A.  No,  sir;  in  Kansas  City;  it  all  depends 
upon  your  desires  and  the  way  you  want  to  dress  and  the  way  you  want 
to  live.  You  can  live  on  $5.00  a week,  as  I have  done  it. 

Q.  Five  dollars  a week  twenty-five  years  ago  was  much  more  than 
the  same  amount  today?  A.  Yes,  then  it  would  go  farther  than  today. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I worked  for  $2.50  a week. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Could  the  company  with  which  you  are  con- 
nected afford  to  raise  the  wages  of  these  girls  from  below  to  above  the 
bread-line;  that  is,  from  below  $8.00,  $9.00  or  $10.00  a week,  to  whatever 
it  may  be  found  would  constitute  a living  wage,  without  increasing  the 
cost  to  the  consumer?  A.  Our  average  pay  for  the  844  girls  was  $7.19; 


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that  was  the  average  for  ten  weeks.  It  all  depends  upon  how  high  you 
want  to  make  it.  The  packing  business  is  scattered,  particularly  through 
the  Missouri  River  states,  and  there  is  considerable  competition  between 
Kansas  City,  Omaha  and  Chicago.  If  it  costs  more  to  do  a certain  line  of 
work  in  Chicago  than  it  does  in  Kansas  City — if  it  costs  more  in  Chicago 
to  do_  work  than  at  Kansas  City.  Cudah}%  for  instance,  in  Kansas  Citj-,  or 
Morris  in  Omaha,  they  would  get  the  business  in  some  cases.  In  other 
words,  when  the  states  that  have  the  large  packing  centers  that  don’t 
adopt  it,  it  might  mean  the  cutting  down  of  the  department  and  laying  off 
of  the  help,  for  instance,  of  our  chipped  beef,  of  our  sliced  bacon  depart- 
ment, where  a large  percentage  of  the  girls  are  working  on  a very  close 
scale.  If  we  had  to  pay  $1.00  or  $1.50  a week  for  our  girl  labor  more  in 
those  departments,  it  would  give  an  advantage  to  people  in  the  same  line 
of  business  elsewhere,  outside  of  the  State  of  Illinois. 

Q.  Why  do  you  pay  by  the  hour  instead  of  by  the  week?  A.  Well, 
throughout  the  entire  stock  yards  the  wages  generally  are  on  an  hourly 
basis. 

Q.  Is  that  because  the  average  girl  does  not  work  a full  week?  A.  I 
would  not  say  so;  it  is  a custom,  I call  it  a custom. 

Q.  Under  this  system  you  can  v/ork  a girl  two  or  three  hours  today 
and  four  or  five  hours  tomorrow,  or  not  at  all?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  done?  A.  The  average,  though,  will  come  verj^  close; 
the  girls  will  average  around  fifty-five  to  fifty-eight  hours  a week. 

Q.  From  fifty-five  to  fifty-eight  hours  a week?  A.  Yes;  it  is  an 
impossibility  to  operate  some  of  our  departments  sixty  hours,  because  we 
can’t  control  the  supply  of  hogs  and  cattle.  Some  da3^s  the  receipts  are 
heavier  than  others,  _ and,  as  the  result,  we  cannot  operate  all  of  our 
departments  all  the  time,  sixty  hours. 

Q.  Now,  under  this  hourly  system,  a girl  has  si.xtj'  hours  a week  of 
her  time  to  sell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  She  comes  to  you  to  sell  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  instead  of  buying  all  of  her  time  at  wholesale,  you  bui'  it  by 
retail,  as  you  need  it;  if  you  need  her  all  of  her  time  today  j-ou  bui'  it;  she 
has  no  other  market  to  go  to;  is  that  system  fair  to  the  girl?  A.  There 
is  a lot  of  these  girls  that  prefer  work  in  the  packing  houses  to  doing 
domestic  work.  It  is  almost  impossible  to  take  one  of  these  girls  who 
are  working  in  our  departments  and  get  them  to  accept  a position  as  a 
domestic. 

Q.  Why  is  that?  A.  They  prefer  to  have  their  evenings  to  them- 
selves, their  homes  to  themselves,  their  holidays  to  themselves;  thej"  prefer 
living  there,  as  they  do  in  the  stock  yards  district,  than  to  working  as  a 
domestic. 

Q.  Do  some  of  them  go  from  your  service  into  domestic  service? 
A.  I very  rarely  hear  of  it  if  they  do.  I have  tried  from  time  to  time 
to  get  them  to  leave  the  packing  house  for  some  of  our  officials  and  some 
of  our  friends  as  a domestic,  but  they  don’t  care  for  the  jobs;  they  come 
back  again  to  work. 

Q.  Do  you  get  some  girls  from  domestic  service;  do  girls  come  from 
domestic  service  into  your  service?  A.  I could  not  answer  that  ques- 
tion, because  we  never  question  them  when  they  come  to  work.  This  is 
work,  probably,  that  they  have  been  on  before,  and  we  simpl3'  put  them 
to  work.  I know  it  is  an  impossible  proposition  to  get  them  to  leave  us 
and  go  to  work  at  domestic  work,  because  I have  had  experience  in  that 
direction;  I have  tried  to  get  them  to  go  to  0:3-  own  house. 

Q.  And  they  won’t  do  it?  A.  The3-  won’t  do  it;  the3-  want  their 
evenings,  their  holidays  and  their  Sundays  to  themselves. 

Q.  Do  they  talk  English?  A.  Some  few;  a larger  percentage  do  not. 

Q.  When  you  find  a girl  who  speaks  English,  do  3-011  have  to  pa3-  her 
more  than  $6.00?  A.  When  we  find  an  English  speaking  girl  we  usually 
have  a position  that  we  can  utilize  her  services  in  to  good  advantage; 
perhaps  that  of  a paymaster,  perhaps  as  a forelad3"  over  the  balance. 

Q.  Now,  let  us  get  down  to  it;  you  use  these  girls  because  the3-  are 
good,  big,  strong  girls  and  don’t  have  to  spend  so  much  mone3-  to  live 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


705 


:1  on,  isn’t  that  why  you  use  them?  A.  No;  we  use  them  because  there  are 
certain  lines  of  work  which  women  can  do  much  handier  than  men;  they 
I are  niftier;  it  is  a clumsy  thing  for  a man  to  wrap  a pound  of  butter; 

' women  have  nimble  fingers,  for  instance,  putting  chipped  beef  in  a jar. 
::  There  is  not  one  man  in  100  that  can  do  that  and  have  it  look  like 
anything.  A woman  has  an  idea  of  tidiness  that  a man  hasn’t  got. 

' Q.  You  hire  them  not  because  they  are  big  and  strong,  but  because 
they  are  dainty  and  neat?  A.  They  are  niftier  than  men. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  a strike  out  in  the  stock  yards?  A.  Many  of 
them. 

Q.  When  was  the  last  big  strike?  A.  1904. 

Q.  Were  you  there  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  there  before  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  familiar  with  the  conditions  out  there  pretty  thoroughly? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Before  the  strike  of  1904  were  American  born  girls  doing  the 
work  now  being  done  by  the  girls  you  have  described?  A.  There  were 
quite  a number  of  American  born  girls  working  there  at  that  time. 

1 Q.  Is  it  a fact,  or  is  it  not,  that  as  a result  of  that  strike,  foreign- 
born  girls  were  taken  into  the  stock  yards?  A.  No;  there  was  a large 
percentage  of  foreign-born  men  and  foreign-born  women  in  the  stock 
i|  yards -prior  to  the  strike  of  1904,  and  the  same  condition  is  true  in  the 
1 stock  yards  as  it  is  in  other  parts  of  the  United  States  in  manufacturing 
districts,  where  this  Slav  element  comes  in  more  and  more  as  the  years 
. go  on.  They  keep  on  increasing  and  increasing  all  the  time.  The  vicinity 
' of  the  stock  yards  is  now  populated  by  Slavish  people,  and  we  have  to 
draw  upon  those  who  live  in  the  vicinity  of  the  stock  yards  for  our  help. 

Q.  They  are  pretty  good  citizens?  A.  We  have  no  fault  to  find 
with  them  at  all. 

Q.  They  ought  to  be  paid  as  much  as  American-born  people?  A. 
■ ■ We  make  no  distinction. 

Q.  You  don’t  make  much  of  a distinction,  but  I notice  that  most  of 
your  girls  are  paid  at  the  rate  of  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  About  50  per 
cent  of  the  girls  that  work  on  the  hourly  basis,  out  of  the  844  there  is  a 
larger  percentage,  54  per  cent,  that  are  working  on  piece  work;  they 
i average  from  12  to  14  cents.  You  haven’t  calculated  them  in  your  table 
! at  all. 

S Q.  No,  I merely  notice  that  you  have  311  girls  working  at  10  cents 
I an  hour.  A.  Yes,  that  is  on  the  hourly  basis. 

! Q.  Those  girls  have  got  to  work  sixty  hours  a week  to  make  $6.00? 
i"  A.  Yes,  sir. 

j Q.  And  35  per  cent  of  them  have  to  stand  up?  A.  No,  35  per  cent 
Hi  of  the  total  number  of  girls  in  the  plant. 

Q.  That  is  35  per  cent  of  what?  A.  They  are  ail  doing  work  where 
they  can  sit  down;  the  girls  stand  up  on  piece  work  generally,  because 
U they  think  they  can  do  it  faster  that  way. 

- Q.  What  is  the  lowest  amount  paid  last  week  to  any  girl  working 
■J  under  the  piece  system?  A.  I can’t  tell  you  last  week. 

. Q.  In  any  average  week?  A.  I will  read  you  off  a few  of  the 
f!  average  rates  made.  I will  go  down  it  rapidly:  $7.88,  $9.07,  $5.92 — that  girl, 
►}  perhaps,  was  absent. 

Q.  How  many  hours  did  she  work?  A.  I haven’t  got  that. 

j Q.  She  got  $5.92?  A.  Yes;  $9.69,  $9.32,  $8.22,  $11.70,  $10.01,  $8.53, 
$6.87,  $8.18,  $12.85,  $9.35,  $10.74  and  $9.36.  Those  are  all  piece  workers, 
i-l  doing  work  where  they  have  to  stand  up. 

li  Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  profits  of  Armour  & Company  were  last 
1 year?  A.  No,  sir;  I am  only  interested  in  the  operating  end,  not  the 
f financial  end. 

Q.  Upon  what  basis  do  you  figure  the  worth  of  a girl?  A.  Generally 
r on  the  prices  that  similar  work  brings  in  similar  cities,  in  other  cities 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


doing  the  same  kind  of  work  that  we  are  doing,  our  corapefitors,  both  here 
in  Chicago  and  elsewhere. 

Q.  I don’t  catch  that.  A.  We  try  to  pay  the  same  wages  to  our 
girls,  for  instance,  working  in  the  chipped  beef  department,  that  other 
packers  pay  here  in  Chicago,  and  that  other  packers  pay  elsewhere,  that 
are  in  the  same  line  of  business  as  we  are,  so  that  our  average  cost  of 
manufacture  will  correspond  with  the  average  cost  of  manufacture  in  those 
other  cities. 

Q.  You  do  pay,  do  you,  the  same  as  are  paid  by  other  packers  in 
Chicago?  A.  We  try  to,  but  we  may  vary  in  some  departments,  but  we 
are  generally  along  on  the  same  lines. 

Q.  Then  you  remain  back  and  wait  until  they  fix  the  price?  A.  Xo, 
sir;  we  don’t,  only  in  some  cases. 

Q.  Who  takes  the  lead?  A.  We  do  in  some  cases;  other  cases  some 
of  the  other  packers  do. 

Q.  Now,  here  is  a girl  going  to  work  in  your  labeling  department; 
who  fixes  the  amount  that  girl  is  to  be  paid?  A.  The  superintendent’s 
office. 

Q.  He  know,  does  he,  what  is  paid  to  a similar  girl  for  doing  similar 
work  in  Kansas  City  or  here  in  Chicago?  A.  We  know  generally  the 
wages  that  are  paid  for  similar  lines  of  wmrk. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  get  together  on  the  outside  and  determine  on 
how  much  these  girls  are  going  to  be  paid?  A.  We  never  did;  we  don’t 
get  together  at  all  to  decide  on  how  much  they  are  going  to  be  paid. 

Q.  Yet  you  were  telling  me — I want  to  be  fair  with  you — that  these 
girls’  wages  are  fixed  by  the  packers  themselves?  A.  No,  sir.  I did  not 
say  anything  of  the  kind.  I said  that  we  tried  to  keep  in  touch  with 
what  is  being  paid  so  that  we  can  keep  our  factory  going  the  same  as 
other  men  in  a similar  line  of  business. 

Q.  Suppose  your  concern  were  to  raise  the  wages  of  these  girls,  who 
are  now  getting  $6.00  to  $10.00,  and  in  Kansas  City  they  should  raise  them 
and  establish  a $10.00  minimum,  would  that  make  any  difference  in  the 
price  that  you  would  pay  in  Chicago?  A.  Probably  not  in  Kansas  City, 
but  it  probably  would  in  Chicago  if  thej'  wanted  trained,  skilled  help  to 
do  the  work. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  establish,  Mr.  Harding,  $10.00  as  3'our  minimum,  it 
would  be  only  a matter  of  time  until  the  other  factories  would  establish 
the  same  minimum?  A.  In  Chicago? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  It  would  probably  be  so. 

Q.  Or  might  it  happen  that  you  would  be  called  off;  they  would  come 
to  you  and  say,  “You  are  paying  too  much?”  A.  No,  thej^  wouldn’t  do 
that;  we  handle  that  end  of  it  ourselves,  and  we  bother  with  nobody  else; 
they  would  not  dictate  to  us  what  we  would  paj'  our  help. 

Q.  Then  you  think  it  is  within  the  power  of  an^'  packer  to  revolu- 
tionize conditions  out  there  b}^  setting  a precedent?  A.  Revolutionize  it 
in  what  way? 

Q.  By  increasing  the  wages  of  the  girls  and  bringing  them  up  to  a 
living  wage?  A.  It  is  possible,  providing  the  present  wages  is  not  a 
living  wage. 

Q.  Granted  that  they  are  not,  then  Air.  Armour,  Air.  Swift,  Air. 
Sulzberger,  or  anj’  of  the  gentlemen  out  there,  individually  can  increase 
wages  throughout  the  entire  stock  j'ards  district?  A.  N^o,  sir;  he  cannot. 

Q.  Didn’t  I understand  j'ou  to  sar'  that  would  be  the  result  of  in- 
creasing the  pay  of  these  girls?  A.  If  one  particular  packer  increased 
the  wages  of  his  help  he  would  be  able  to  select  the  best  of  the  help;  it 
would  then  be  a matter  of  policr"  whether  the  other  packers  would  want 
to  get  along  with  less  experienced  help  or  make  the  same  rate.  It  is 
just  the  same  as  with  the  department  stores  downtown. 

CHAIRAIAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all.  Air.  Harding.  Thank  j-ou. 

Mr.  C.  L.  Charles’  Testimony. 

C.  L.  Charles,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  being  first 
duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


707 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  What  is  your  name?  A.  C.  L.  Charles. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  With  Morris  & Company,  at  the  stock 
yards. 

Q.  What  is  your  connection  with  that  company?  A.  Assistant 
superintendent. 

Q.  What  business  is  this  concern  engaged  in?  A.  Packers. 

Q.  How  many  women  and  girls  are  employed  in  your  concern?  .A.. 
In  the  plant  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Exclusive  of  the  office  force,  324. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  those  girls?  A.  Ten 
cents  an  hour. 

Q.  And  the  highest  wage?  A.  The  highest  is  17^2  cents  on  a straight 
salary,  then  there  is  piece  work. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  paid  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  Twenty-six. 

Q.  What  is  the  next?  A.  Eleven  and  a half. 

Q.  How  many  are  paid  that?  A.  One  hundred  and  twenty-eight. 

Q.  What  is  the  next?  A.  Twelve  and  a half. 

Q.  And  how  many  are  paid  that?  A.  One  hundred  and  twenty. 

Q.  What  is  the  next?  A.  Fourteen  and  a half. 

Q.  And  how  many  are  paid  that?  A.  Fifteen — pardon  me,  twenty- 
three  instead  of  fifteen. 

Q.  Let  us  see,  this  is  Morris  & Company?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  compete  with  Armour  & Company?  A.  We  do  with 
all  packers. 

Q.  We  find  that  at  Armours  311  girls  are  paid  at  the  rate  of  10 
cents  an  hour,  while  only  twenty-six  at  your  place  of  business  are  paid 
at  the  rate  of  10  cents  an  hour?  A.  Twenty-six;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  paying  a little  more  money,  apparently,  than  Armour? 
A.  I don’t  know  what  Armour  is  paying;  I heard  this  gentleman  testify. 

Q.  Well,  Mr.  Charles,  why  is  this  hourly  system  used?  A.  Well, 
it  is  used  for  the  reason  that  the  girls  don’t  work  steady;  they  work  on 
an  hourly  basis;  one  day  might  be  a light  day  and  they  might  quit  at  4 
o’clock,  and  the  next  day  at  5:30  o’clock. 

Q.  Can  they  quit  at  afiy  time  they  want  to?  A.  There  is  no  restric- 
tion on  them;  if  they  have  any  reason  that  they  want  to  quit,  they  quit;  but 
the  girls,  as  a rule,  want  the  work,  so  they  don’t  quit  as  long  as  the  work 
is  there.  Do  you  mean,  now,  if  a girl  wanted  to  go  home  that  she  could 
not,  is  that  your  question? 

Q.  No,  I would  like  to  know  whether  this  system  of  paying  them 
by  the  hour  is  for  the  convenience  of  the  girls  or  of  the  packers.  Let  me 
ask  you  a few  questions  leading  up  to  that;  are  there  some  periods  of  the 
year  or  some  periods  of  the  month  when  you  don’t  need  so  many  girls 
as  at  other  periods?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  your  slack  periods  do  you  have  some  of  these  girls  come 
in  for  a part  of  a week?  A.  Do  you  mean  for  a portion  of  the  week? 

0-  Do  voU'  sometimes  lay  off  all  the  girls  for  two  or  three  hours  a 
week?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  does  happen  sometimes?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  sometimes  do  you  la}^  them  all  off  for,  say,  a day?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  for  two  or  three  hours  a day?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or  for  a period  of  suspension  running  for  a week?  A.  No,  it 
won’t  run  that  much;  you  will  find  that  the  girls  will  make  from  fifty-six 
to  fifty-eight  hours  a week,  about  on  an  average. 

Q.  That  would  be  an  average?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  That  is,  the  girls  would  be  willing  to  work  the  full  sixty  hours? 
A.  Most  of  the  girls  want  to  get  away  on  Saturday  afternoons;  in  fact, 
seem  to  be  anxious  to  get  off. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


1 


Q.  If  you  let  them  off  for,  say,  two  hours  on  Tuesday,  that  would  ' j 
not  affect  their  getting  off  on  Saturday,  would  it?  A.  No.  i 

Q.  They  would  still  want  to  get  off  on  Saturday  afternoon?  A.  Yes.  ( 

Q.  If  you  let  them  off  on  Tuesday?  A.  That  would  be  on  account  i 

of  no  work  on  Tuesday. 

Q.  The  girl  has  sixty  hours  of  her  time  to  sell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  She  comes  to  you  and  you  are  a big  business  man,  a big  business  \ 

concern,  and  instead  of  buying  from  this  girl  wholesale,  buying  outright 
her  sixty  hours’  time  during  the  week,  you  insist  upon  buying  from  the 
girl  retail,  buying  her  time  in  hour  lots,  as  you  can  use  it.  and  the  girl  has 
to  stand  the  loss  of  any  time  that  you  can’t  use?  A.  That  is  verj^  true. 

Q.  Then  the  real  loss  occasioned  by  slackness  falls  upon  the  girls, 
under  this  system?  A.  There  is  no  question  about  that;  also  the  custom 
as  to  the  men  is  the  same;  j^ou  will  find  even  the  high-classed  butchers 
are  working  under  the  same  condition;  they  are  getting  good,  big  salaries, 
are  paid  by  the  hour  just  the  same  as  the  girls;  that  is  a custom  that  has 
been  in  effect  in  the  yards  ever  since  I can  remember. 

Q.  Are  you  paid  by  the  hour?  A.  No. 

Q.  Are  the  highest  salaried  people  paid  by  the  hour?  A.  No,  simply 
the  people  that  work  in  the  plant,  including  all  butchers,  meat  cutters,  meat 
trimmers,  all  work  on  piece  work. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe,  Mr.  Charles,  that  it  is  injustices  of  that  sort 
that  brings  discontent  upon  your  working  people?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  are  you  doing  for  the  welfare  of  these  girls.  Mr.  Charles? 

Q.  Well,  we  feel  that  we  have  done  quite  a little  out  there;  we  have  three 
doctors,  a dentist  and  a nurse  that  devote  their  exclusive  time  to  the 
employes  of  the  plant,  girjs  and  w'omen,  too.  Now,  we  have  in  force  and 
have  had  for  about  three  vears  what  we  call  an  Employes’  Benefit  Associa- 
tion; the  employes  contribute  a small  amount  to  that  association,  and  that 
association  pays  $3.00  a week,  and  it  will  run  up  to  nine;  nine  is  the 
largest  we  allow  them  to  pay.  and  if  they  are  sick  they  get  medical 
service,  medicine,  doctor’s  attention,  and,  if  necessary,  we  take  them  to  a 
hospital  without  cost  to  them  at  all.  In  fact,  right  at  the  present  time  I 
think  we  have  twelve  people  in  the  hospital;  two  of  them  at  Mercy  and 
some  at  Wesley.  That  is,  if  they  have  an  accident  or  sickness,  whether 
the  accident  happened  at  home  or  where;  we  also  have  a dentist  out  there 
that  devotes  most  of  his  time  to  the  \\-omen;  we  find  it  a hard  matter  to 
get  the  men  to  pay  any  attention  to  it. 

Q.  How  rntfch  money  do  you  expend  annually  for  this  kind  of  work? 

A.  Probably  $8,000  at  this  plant. 

Q.  You  pay  the  doctors  and  dentists?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  haven’t  any  benefit  association?  A.  Yes,  if  the  employe  is 
away,  if  they  are  sick  for  any  reason  whatever,  they  get  $3.00  a week. 
Understand,  they  don’t  get  their  time. 

Q.  Who  pays  that  $3.00  a week?  A.  The  Employes’  Benefit  Associa- 
tion. 

Q.  Do  they  also  pav  these  doctors?  A.  Oh.  no,  no,  Morris  & Com- 
pany pays  the  doctors;  the  doctors  are  exclusive  of  the  Benefit  Association. 

O.  And  the  dentist  is  exclusive  of  the  Benefit  Association?  A.  Yes. 
sir:  that  is  a matter  of  charity:  the  dentist  was  put  on  about  a year  agcv 
a^nd  he  is  right  at  the  plant  from  about  9 o’clock  in  the  morning  tn  5 
o’clock  in  the  afternoon;  he  does  not  po  to  the  houses  as  the  doctors  do; 
and  the  nurses  go  to  the  houses,  we  aim  to  keep  two  doctors  nut  all  the 
time,  and  a nurse  and  one  doctor  at  the  plant,  and  there  is  quite  a sized 
hospital  at  the  plant. 

Q.  V’hat  finally  happens  to  the  girls  who  are  workin?  for  your  con- 
cern— do  they  leave  for  other  positions  nr  to  marry?  A.  Oh.  well,  that’s 
something  that  I don’t  know:  that  is  a liard  thing  to  say.  You  would  be 
surprised  at  the  large  percentage  of  married  women  that  are  working  at 
the  plant.  You  will  find  a man  coming  in  and  ask  that  they  put  his  woman 
to  work.  , 

Q.  Who  collects  their  wages?  A.  They  do. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


709 


Q.  The  men?  A.  Oh,  no,  no;  they  won’t  give  it  to  their  husbands, 
they  give  it  to  the  women.  Now,  don’t  misconstrue  the  meaning  of  that; 
you  will  find  that  some  of  the  people  are  saving  their  money,  working  men 
and  women;  where  they  are  both  working,  you  will  often  find  that  they 
are  saving  money.  And  again,  I find  that  those  people  are  pretty  well  up 
on  religion;  take  the  Polish  people  for  instance:  they  seem  to  be  very 
strict.  Of  course,  we  see  them  around  the  plant,  necessarily  they  have  to 
be  around  there;  what  their  home  relations  may  be,  may  be  different. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  have  down  in  the  General  Assembly  a bill 
now  for  a minimum  wage  scale  law;  I presume  you  have  heard  of  it?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  provides  for  a commission  of  three  to  be  appointed  to  look 
after  these  matters.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  They  are  starting  out  at  $7.50  a week  for  the  minimum;  this,  of 
course,  is  not  for  apprentices,  they  begin  lower  down  than  that;  what 
would  you  think  of  that?  A.  Well,  Senator,  it  would  not  do  for  any  man 
to  say  that  they  would  not  think  well  of  a minimum  of  $7.00  or  $7.50  a 
week. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  too  low?  A.  People  are  living  on  less  than 
that,  but  how  they  are  living  you  gentlemen  know, 
i Q.  I am  asking  you  if  you  think  that  is  too  low.  A.  A girl  cannot 

i|  live  on  less  than  $7.00  a week. 

Q.  We  have  started  out  at  $7.50  a week;  it  is  liable  to  be  arr  ended, 
if  and  we  are  asking  for  information  from  men  that  know.  A.  Yes. 

1;  Q.  Of  course,  if  this  bill  passes,  which  I think  it  will,  then  the 

if  Governor  will  appoint  three  good  men  upon  that  commission,  men  who 
7’  understand  conditions;  now,  do  you  think  that  $7.00  to  $7.50  per  week  is 
r;  too  low  for  a girl  to  live  on  and  live  decently?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so. 

1[  Q.  So,  all  around,  do  you  think  it  would  be  a good  thing?  A.  Yes, 

i I do. 

p Q.  We  have  talked  with  a good  many  people  in  regard  to  this  matter, 

j[,  and  I want  to  state  now  that  Missouri,  and,  in  fact,  thirty-two  states 
besides  this  are  investigating  this  matter  now.  A.  I went  to  one  of  their 
t'  meetings  down  in  the  country;  Oklahoma  has  the  same  thing.  I was  down 
there  last  week,  and  do  you  know  that  Oklahoma  has  the  same  proposition 
" that  we  have  up  here.  The  business  men  are  fighting  it  down  there.  They 
are  making  no  distinction  down  there  as  to  stenographers  and  girls  work- 

ii  ing  in  plants:  they  are  also  trying  to  fix  a maximum.  They  have  not 
I included  that  in  any  bill,  but  they  are -trying  to. 

' Q.  The  business  men  in  Chicago,  and  we  have  talked  to  a great 

many  people  on  State  Street,  and  they  seem  very  agreeable  to  it,  and 
every  place  that  we  have  been  to  they  think  it  is  a very  good  thing, 
t,  A.  If  you  will  pardon  me,  let  me  say  to  you  gentlemen  something  about 
the  question  of  marriage  out  there  in  the  plants:  you  understand  that 
[ji!  all  of  these  women  employed  out  there,  or  the  majority  of  them,  are 
foreigners,  do  you  understand  that?  Now,  assuming  there  is  anything 
, ■ wrong  going  on,  it  is  not  on  account  of  money.  We  know  these  things 
go  on  ourselves.  For  instance,  one  man  and  one  woman  will  run  a 
I I sporting  house  and  possibly  have  two  or  three  girls;  I don’t  believe  there 
! is  any  money  in  it.  I believe  that  it  is  due  to  the  natural  desire  of  these 
people;  that  is  my  honest  opinion  of  it.  I believe,  coming  in  contact  with 
! them,  I have  some  fair  idea  of  it;  in  other  words,  what  I am  trying  to 
I explain  is  I don’t  think  any  of  those  girls  are  reaping  any  financial  benefit 
for  it  if  anything  wrong  is  going  on. 

^ SENATOR  BEALL:  Don’t  you  think  that  a girl  working  for  from 

i,  $3.50  to  $5.00  a week  is  liable  to  go  astray?  A.  There  is  no  question 
( , about  it. 

Q.  She  can’t  live  on  that?  A.  That  is  my  own  opinion. 

' SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  the  general  opinion. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


EXAMINATION  CONTINUED  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Do  you  say,  Mr.  Charles,  that  the  condition 
that  you  are  facing  at  the  yards  is  in  a way  brought  about  by  the  low 
wages  that  are  being  paid,  and  do  you  not  say  that  the  pa3'ing  of  higher 
wages  will  correct  it?  A.  Yes,  possibly. 

Q.  These  people  are  living  in  a district  where  the  housing  conditions 
are  not  the  best?  A.  They  are  very  bad. 

Q.  If  they  were  paid  more  money  thej*  would  graduallj-  improve  the 
atmosphere  in  which  they  live?  A.  \es,  1 agree  with  you,  but  j'ou  must 
bear  in  mind  the  enormous  amount  of  money  that  these  cheap  laborers 
get  together  and  send  to  the  old  country.  You  will  find  that  these  little 
banks  are  doing  an  enormous  business.  That  class  of  labor  use  up  every 
cent  of  what  theyuhave  to  live  on  and  to  send  away. 

Q.  There  is  another  angle  to  it,  and  I know  that  you  will  consider  it, 
and  that  is;  if  you  would  pay  more  money  out  there  the  emploj'ment 
would  be  more  attractive?  A.  Yes,  that  is  true. 

Q.  To  American-born  girls?  A.  That  is  true;  there  is  no  argument 
that  the  presence  of  the  foreigner  there  is  entirely  due  to  low  wages,  not 
only  men  but  women. 

Q.  That  is  because  you  get  foreign  labor  in  there  that  will  accept  low 
wages?  A.  There  is  no  question  about  it,  not  only  women  but  men. 

Q.  I believe  that  you  ought  to  pay  your  employes  what  they  can 
earn;  that  you  should  not  pay  the  foreigner  who  does  not  speak  our 
language  less  money  than  you  would  pay  to  our  own  American-born, 
because  that  is  encouraging  a baneful  sort  of  class  feeling.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A feeling  between  the  native-born  and  the  foreign-born?  A. 
Especially  against  the  foreigner,  because  he  was  doing  his  work  so  cheap. 
I do  not  know  that  it  would  be  of  any  interest  to  you,  but  if  at  any  time 
you  would  care  to  come  out  to  the  stock  yards,  I think  the  packers  would 
be  glad  to  show  you,  I don’t  mean  this  for  any  purpose,  but  I think  that 
they  are  all  trying  to  help  their  employes.  1 know  that  ^Ir.  Swift  has 
spent  an  awful  lot  of  money  trying  to  help  their  employes,  and  I believe 
that  if  some  of  you  would  come  out  there  that  you  would  change  your 
ideas. 

Q.  I have  no  ideas  about  it.  A.  You  will  be  surprised  how  neat  and 
clean  those  foreign  women  are  kept. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Do  you  know  how  much  they  are  pa3-ing  for 
labor  in  Germany — 50  cents  a day? 

THE  WITNESS;  Common  labor  in  the  3'ards  now  is  $1.75;  17’4 
cents  and  from  that  to  20  cents;  the3'  will  average  about  18  cents  an  hour 
or  18^  cents. 

Whereupon,  upon  motion  duly  made  and  seconded,  an  adjourn- 
ment was  taken,  subject  to  the  call  of  the  Chair. 


SESSION  XXVI 


From  employer  witnesses,  the  Committee  obtains  information 
I as  to  low  wages  paid  to  husbands  and  fathers  and  admissions 
that  the  earnings  of  many  such  are  inadequate  for  the  family  support, 

^ compelling  the  placing  of  young  daughters  at  work.  Witnesses 
'testify  voluntarily,  without  being  sworn,  expressing  their  desire 
to  co-operate  with  the  Committee  in  every  way  possible.  Twelve 

(dollars  a week  minimum  wage  for  married  man  is  standard  ac- 
cepted generally  by  those  testifying.  Testimony  of; 

I = Mr.  George  M.  Reynolds,  president.  Continental  and  Com- 
[ mercial  National  Bank; 

! Mr.  James  M.  Simpson,  vice-president,  Marshall  Field  & Co.; 

Mr.  Edward  Lehmann,  vice-president.  The  Fair; 

I Mr.  David  R.  Forgan,  president.  National  City  Bank; 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald,  president.  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.; 

Mr.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr.,  vice-president,  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott 
& Co. 

Chicago,  Illinois,  June  6,  1913,  10:00  o’clock  A.  M. 
j LaSalle  Hotel. 

I The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  notice.  Chairman  O’Hara  and 
!'  Senators  Beall,  Tossey  and  Woodard  being  present,  the  following 
r proceedings  were  had : 

f CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  For  the  information  of  witnesses  at  today’s 
' session,  I am  delegated  by  the  Committee  to  announce  that  none  will  be 
ii  put  under  oath.  The  Committee  desires  to  co-operate  with  the  em- 
I ployers  and  the  employed  to  get  all  the  information,  which  may  be 
j obtainable,  concerning  the  wages  paid  to  men,  and  the  connection  of 
f that  payment  of  wages  to  men  with  the  wages  paid  to  women. 

Ij 

f Mr.  George  M.  Reynolds’  Testimony. 

i GEORGE  M.  REYNOLDS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Com- 
i mittee,  was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as 
follows: 

: CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  George'  M. 

'I  Reynolds. 

i Q.  And  your  business,  Mr.  Reynolds?  A.  I am  president  of  the 
1 Continental  and  Commercial  National  Bank,  and  vice-president  of  the 
p American  Trust  & Savings  Bank,  and  the  Hibernian  Banking  Association. 

* Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee,  Mr.  Reynolds,  how  many  men  are 
employed  in  the  banks  with  which  you  are  connected?  A.  Eight  hun- 
dred and  thirty-seven. 

j Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  in  your  employ? 

: A.  Five  dollars  a week,  or  twenty  dollars  a month,  to  office  boys — 
I purely  office  men  that  come  in  from  the  graded  schools. 

1 Q.  How  many  office  boys  have  you  today  to  whom  you  are  paying 

I that  wage?  A.  About  twenty-five. 

: Q-  What  is  the  next  scale  in  payment?  A.  The  majority  of  boys 

I that  come  in.  come  in  from  the  eighth  grade  of  the  schools,  usually 
■ at  from  $25  to  $35  a month. 

! Q.  How  many  are  there  at  that  age?  A.  About  forty, 

j Q.  And  the  next  in  that  scale,  Mr.  Reynolds?  A.  Well,  the  next 

I in  scale  will  be  the  clearing  house,  or  transit  clerks,  at  from  forty  to 

sixty  dollars  a month, 
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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  How  many  of  those  clerks  have  you  at  forty  dollars  a month? 
A.  I could  not  tell  you  off-hand. 

Q.  How  many  at  wages  running  from  $40  to  $60  a month?  A.  I 
couldn’t  tell  you.  I don’t  have  that.  I have  the  maximum  and  the 
average,  and  I have  the  memorandum  of  what  we  regard  as  the  real 
lowest. 

Q.  And  of  the  sixty  dollars  a month;  that  is  the  next  in  the  scale? 
A.  Oh,  well,  it  ranges  from  sixty  to  one  hundred  dollars  a month, 
and  runs  from  that  up  through  the  various  lines  of  work  to  three  hun- 
dred dollars  a month. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  the  Committee,  Mr.  Reynolds,  approximately  how 
many  men  are  employed  at  a wage  of  from  $40  to  $100  a month?  A. 
Well,  it  would  be  a mere  guess  on  my  part,  from  $40  to  $100  a month, 
but  I expect  two  or  three  hundred  probably;  that  is  only  a guess  because 
I have  nothing  to  do  from  day  to  day  with  the  employes. 

Q.  How  do  those  ages  run?  A.  W’hen  they  get  from  sixty  to 
one  hundred  dollars  a month,  those  boj^s  are  probably  from  21  years 
to  25  years  or  26  years  of  age.  We  take  in  none  under  sixteen  years  of  age, 
and  we  take  them  in  as  a rule,  under  the  civil  service,  although  we  don’t 
have  any  set  rules  in  regard  to  that.  None  of  these  boys  at  all  have  any 
experience,  and  are  of  very  little  value  to  us  to  start  with,  and  they  are 
used  in  the  beginning  to  simply  run  errands  in  the  office,  between  the 
officers  and  the  various  departments  and  the  various  clerks.  Those  boys 
stay  in  those  positions  for  probably  six  months,  and  then  get  a raise  of 
probably  five  dollars  a month,  and  within  a year,  probably,  an  additional 
five  dollars  a month,  but  the  vacancies  in  our  force,  in  view  of  the  number 
of  men  that  we  employ,  are  so  many,  that  they  are  rapidly  advanced 
from  those  lower  points  all  the  time,  but  the  messengers,  the  messenger 
boys  and  office  boys,  who  come  in  on  this  low  wage,  have  had  no  expe- 
rience whatever  in  business,  and  for  the  first  six  months,  as  I said  before, 
are  of  very  little  value  to  us,  although  they  get  paid  up  to  forty  dollars 
a month;  if  we  could  get  them  with  experience,  we  would  much  prefer, 
but  we  can’t  get  them.  They  have  to  begin  at  apprenticeship  in  order 
to  get  the  experience. 

Q.  Five  dollars  a week  is,  as  you  understand  it,  a fixed  rate  for 
office  boys  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Well,  I should  saj'  from  five  to 
six  dollars  a week  among  the  banks;  in  mercantile  houses  it  is  less  than 
that.  Still,  I am  not  familiar  enough  to  speak  of  that. 

Q.  Would  you  say,  Mr.  Reynolds,  that  the  fixing  of  seven  dollars 
and  ^ half  as  a minimum  wage  for  boys,  minors,  would  work  an  injustice 
on  business?  A.  Well,  I should  think  that  anything  that  fixed  a minimum 
or  maximum  price,  when  you  eliminate  efficiency,  and  put  it  on  the  basis 
of  mere  dollars  and  cents,  it  might  work  a hardship  in  some  instances. 
I don’t  think  that  the  question,  so  far  as  the  banks  are  concerned,  of 
dollars  and  cents,  would  make  any  difference  especialh'.  but  I do  think 
it  would  impair  the  efficiency,  because  if  3’ou  take  awaj-  from  it  the  merit 
system  and  the  opportunities  for  advancement  through  merit,  I think 
it  would  impair  the  efficienc}^. 

Q.  The  Committee  has  been  informed  in  man3^  instances  that  girls 
have  been  paid  five  dollars  a week,  and  bo3's  of  about  the  same  class 
five  dollars  a week,  because  the3'  were  inexperienced  and  not  worth 

more A.  Well,  that  is  the  point  I have  tried  to  make  in_  what  I 

have  said  here:  then  3mu  would  not  pa3'  an3-  attention  to  efficienc3'  or 
skillfulness  at  all.  You  would  start  ever3'  bo3'  and  ever3'  girl  at  a given 
price  regardless  of  whether  the3'  could  earn  that  or  not;  that  would 
be  your  theory? 

■Q.  How  would  3'ou  say  this  five  dollars  is  arrived  at  as  a fair  figure 
for  beginners?  A.  I would  say  that  it  is  more  probabh'  a custom  than 
an3^thing  else. 

Q.  Don’t  you  believe  that  the  custom  should  be  based  on  the  cost 
of  living  of  these  bo3'S  and  girls,  rather  than  an  arbitrar3'  figure  of  five 
dollars  or  six  dollars  per  week?  A.  Possibh-  so.  I wouldn’t  object 
to  that  myself.  They  have  not  had  any  experience  in  the  world  in  busi- 


I 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


713 


r ness,  and  there  is  another  phase  of  it  which  we  would  have  to  take  into 
» consideration.  » 

Q.  You  have  some  other  figures  there,  tabulated,  Mr.  Reynolds? 

;;  A.  We  have  827  men  in  the  three  institutions,  with  average  salaries  of 
’ $900  a year,  or  $75.00  a month.  The  lowest,  as  I have  told  you,  is  the 

f | office  boy,  who  begins  wdth  no  experience,  and  the  messenger  boy,  who 

i ' begins  with  no  experience,  and  the  highest  is  $300  a month,  under  the 

f;t  official  positions. 

■ _ Q.  The  average  is  $900  a year?  A.  Yes,  it  lacks  one  dollar  of  that 

in  actual  computation. 

_Q.  Have  you  any  idea,  Mr.  Reynolds,  or  have  you  ever  conducted 
|i  an  investigation  along  that  line,  as  to  how  much  it  would  cost  a man 

. i to  support  his  wife  and  a family  of  one,  say  a child,  a wife  and  himself, 

»i!  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  No,  I can’t  say  that  I have  ever  made  an 
investigation  that  would  make  my  opinion  of  any  value  to  you. 

I CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I think  that  is  all,  Mr.  Reynolds;  thank 

>1  you. 

I Mr.  James  Simpson’s  Testimony, 

JAMES  SIMPSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee  was  ex- 
amined in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

Q.  Your  name,  please?  A.  James  Simpson. 

* Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Vice  President  of  Marshall  Field  & Com- 

If  pany. 

d Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  at  Marshall  Field  & Company?  A. 

p Thirty-five  hundred  and  ten. 

|;;  Q.  What  is  the  average  wage,  Mr.  Simpson?  A.  Nineteen  dollars  a 
>1  week,  exclusive  of  section  heads. 

Q.  Nineteen  dollars  a week  is  the  average  of  3510  men?  A.  No,  that 
is  the  average  of  three  thousand  men  over  twenty-one  years  of  age;  the 
!j  others  are  under  twenty-one. 

li  Q.  These  men  are  employed  in  what  capacities,  generally  speaking? 

r A.  Porters,  elevator  men,  and  so  forth — salesmen,  packers,  drivers. 

I Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  these  men  under  twenty-one 

■ years  of  age,  to  make  up  this  average?  A.  Oh,  I should  say  that  $12.50 
'■!  would  be  the  lowest  wage  that  we  pay  a married  man;  I have  got  it  tabu- 
ilj  lated  in  that  way. 

J Q.  You  make  a distinction  in  the  payment  of  wages  between  those  paid 

I to  married  men  and  those  to  single  men?  A.  Well,  I say  that  twelve  dollars 
ii|  a week  is  the  lotvest  wage  that  we  pay  to  married  men. 

J Q.  There  is  a distinction  between  married  and  single  men?  A.  Yes. 

ji  Q.  You  pay  married  men  more  than  you  pay  single  men?  A.  I would 

not  say  that,  but  we  do  not  want  married  men  to  get  less  than  twelve  dollars 
'li  a week  in  our  employ. 

Q.  If  you  have  a man  in  your  employ  and  he  is  single,  making  ten  dol- 
11  lars  a week,  when  he  gets  married,  do  you  raise  him  to  twelve  dollars  a 
: week?  A.  That  would  be  our  aim;  we  don’t  want  a married  man  in  our 
I employ  getting  less  than  twelve  dollars  a week. 

I'  Q.  Then  you  have  a sort  of  a minimum  wage  scale  for  married  men? 

A.  For  married  men,  yes. 

Q.  And  that  minimum  wage  scale  is  twelve  dollars?  A.  Yes. 

! . Q.  Now,  do  you  have  a minimum  wage  scale  for  married  men  with 
,|  children?  A.  No,  we  don’t  make  any  distinction, 
j Q.  You  don’t  make  any  distinction  there?  A.  No. 

j Q.  The  size  of  the  family  you  leave  up  to  him?  A.  Yes. 

1 ’ Q.  Have  you  some  more  figures  there,  Mr.  Simpson?  A.  No,  I think 

‘!:  that  is  all  I have  got  here.  We  pay  young  fellows,  say  from  sixteen  to  twen- 

j ty-one,  from  eight  to  twelve  dollars  a week. 

I Q.  You  pay  young  fellows  from  sixteen  to  twenty-one  from  eight  to 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  boys  below  sixteen — we  have  only  got  a 
very  few  of  them — we  pay  from  five  to  eight  dollars  a week. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  That  is  below  sixteen?  A.  Yes,  we  have  only 
a very  few  of  them. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  Q.  Then  for  boys  of  sixteen  or  over,  you 
have  a minimum  wage  scale  of  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  pay  none  below  that?  A.  I wouldn’t  say  that;  there  is 
possibly  an  exception  here  and  there,  but  it  is  our  aim  to  do  that;  as  a matter 
of  fact,  you  can’t  get  boys  for  less  than  eight  dollars  a week. 

Q.  Why  is  that?  A.  Because  of  the  supply  and  demand. 

Q.  Is  a boy  of  sixteen  worth  more  to  you  than  a girl  of  sixteen?  A. 
You  can’t  answer  that  question;  he  might  be,  yes,  and  he  might  not  be;  it 
would  depend  on  the  boy  and  it  would  depend  on  the  girl. 

Q.  You  have  girls  in  your  store  who  get  less  than  eight  dollars  a week? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  boys  of  sixteen  or  over,  who  get  less  than  eight?  A. 
We  can’t  get  them;  the  supply  and  demand  regulates  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  girl  to  do,  if  she  is  as  valuable  to  you  as  the  boy,  and 
she  does  not  get  eight  dollars  a week;  what  has  she  to  do  to  get  it?  A.  If 
she  is  just  as  valuable  as  the  boy,  we  w'ould  pay  it  to  her. 

Q.  Isn’t  she  just  as  valuable?  A.  That  is  a question  you  can’t  answer; 
that  is  a hard  question;  it  depends  on  the  boy  and  it  depends  on  the  girl. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  And  it  depends  also  on  the  individual?  A. 
It  depends  also  on  the  individual. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  I can’t  understand  how  it  is  dependent  on  the 
individual,  when  we  find  that  boys  are  getting  a minimum  of  eight  dollars  a 
week,  and  girls  of  the  same  age  and  the  same  experience  are  getting  less 
than  eight  dollars  a week;  it  seems  to  me  it  is  a matter  of  se.x  rather  than 
of  individuals.  A.  It  depends  on  their  value  to  the  business. 

Q.  Let  us  understand  it,  Mr.  Simpson,  do  you  have  in  your  stores  boys 
who  are  getting  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Possibly  yes,  I should  imagine  so. 

Q.  You  have  some  girls  who  are  getting  less  than  eight  dollars  a week 
employed  as  clerks?  A.  Yes,  a very  few  girls  get  less  than  eight  dollars  a 
week,  are  not  employed  as  clerks.  They  do  different  classes  of  work.  They 
work  in  the  auditing  department.  You  can’t  get  much  of  a salesgirl  for 
much  less  than  eight  dollars  a week  in  our  business.  I think  statistics 
showed  you  that  there  are  very  few  girls  that  are  getting  less  than  eight 
dollars  a week;  the  average  woman,  exclusive  of  section  heads,  in  our  busi- 
ness, gets  from  twelve  to  thirteen  dollars  a week. 

Q.  The  girl  clerk,  who  is  getting  seven  dollars  a we'ek,  Mr.  Simpson, 
isn’t  she  as  valuable  to  you  as  the  boy  who  is  getting  eight  dollars  a week? 
A.  It  depends  upon  what  she  sells;  it  depends  upon  her  sales. 

Q.  Then  there  is  no  distinction  made  in  your  establishment,  between 
girl  labor  and  boy  labor?  A.  No,  their  compensation  depends  on  their  value 
to  the  business;  there  is  no  distinction  made  as  between  girls  and  boj'S  in 
that  respect.  If  a girl  is  worth  ten  dollars  a week  to  the  business,  we  give 
it  to  her;  if  she  is  worth  fifteen  dollars  a week,  we  give  it  to  her;  we  don’t 
compare  it  with  the  boys’  work. 

Q.  We  find  here,  Mr.  Simpson,  that  the  law  of  supply  and  demand, 
practically,  in  your  business,  has  established  a minimum  for  boys  of  eight 
dollars  a week,  and  that  such  a minimum  for  girls  is  not  established  because 
you  insist  the  girls  are  not  worth  that  much  money;  would  a law  fixing  a 
minimum  wage  for  girls  of  eight  dollars  a week  work  a hardship  on  any  busi- 
ness, any  more  hardship  on  any  business  than  the  law  of  supply  and  demand 
has,  which  fixes  a minimum  wage  for  boj’-s?  A.  If  it  were  a Federal  law,  I 
don’t  think  it  would,  but  if  you  make  a law  in  Illinois  that  does  not  apply 
across  the  line,  then  it  will  work  a hardship  in  this  state,  if  you  have  got  a 
minimum  which  is  very  high.  I think  that  it  would  affect  the  manufacturing 
interests  more  than  it  would  the  mercantile  interests. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  Mr.  Simpson,  that,  as  a matter  of  fact,  depending  on 
Federal  legislation  would  mean  a long  wait  for  these  girls  before  they  re- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


715 


ceived  what  this  Committee  has  been  pleased  to  term  a living  wage?  A. 
Well,  it  might  be. 

Q.  It  would  be  a long  wait?  A.  It  might  be. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  of  how  much  it  costs  a man  to  support  a family 
i in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  No,  but  I do  know  that  the  United  States  statis- 
tics show  that  46  per  cent  of  the  families  in  this  country  get  twelve  dollars 
; a week  or  less;  65  per  cent  of  the  families  in  this  country,  their  incomes  is 
nine  hundred  dollars  a year  or  less. 

! Q.  Sixty-five  per  cent  of  the  families;  that  includes  the  families  in  the 

I rural  districts  as  well  as  in  the  metropolitan  districts?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  statistics  that  apply  to  families  in  the  metropolitan 
districts  in  cities,  say  of  sixty  to  one  hundred  thousand?  A.  I do  not  know 
that  that  is  published  in  the  census  reports. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  our  people  live  in  rural  communities,  as  com- 
pared to  those  who  live  in  the  metropolitan  districts?  A.  That,  of  course, 
is  published,  but  I haven’t  got  that  proportion  at  my  fingers’  ends. 

Q.  That  would  be  about  sixty-five  per  cent  of  our  people  who  live  in 
rural  districts  outside  of  the  metropolitan  districts,  so  that  those  figures 
might  be  open  to  some  discussion,  might  they  not?  A.  Oh,  yes.  I am  just 
giving  you  what  I know.  The  census  reports  published  last  year  show  that 
sixty-five  per  cent  of  the  families  in  this  country  live  on  an  income  of  less 
than  nine  hundred  dollars  a year;  those  are  vital  statistics. 

Q.  Well,  you  have  never  conducted  an  investigation,  Mr.  Simpson,  as 
to  the  cost  of  supporting  a family  in  the  City  of  Chicago?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  did  you  decide  on  twelve  dollars  a week  as  the  lowest  amount 
that  you  would  care  to  pay  a married  man?  A.  Oh,  it  is  an  arbitrary  de- 
cision, based  on  what  other  men  are  getting;  it  is  more  or  less  comparative. 

Q.  You  desire  to  be  fair  with  your  workers,  unquestionably?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  That  is  good  business  with  you,  I dare  say?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  that  spirit  of  fairness  you  fixed  twelve  dollars  a week  as  a 
sort  of  a minimum  wage  scale  for  married  men;  would  it  or  would  it  not, 
be  fair  and  equitable  for  the  state  to  fix,  after  an  investigation  as  to  the 
actual  living  expenses  of  a family,  a minimum  wage  to  be  paid  married 
men;  would  you,  or  would  you  not,  welcome  legislation  of  that  nature? 
A.  I don’t  know  that  I would;  from  a selfish  standpoint,  it  would  be  im- 
material to  me  and  it  wouldn’t  make  much  difference. 

Q.  Speaking  in  a broader  sense?  A.  Speaking  in  a broader  sense. 
I don’t  know;  I haven’t  got  it  studied  out  enough  to  say  whether  it  would 
be  better  for  the  state  or  not.  I say  this,  however,  that  unless  it  is  a 
Federal  statute,  I think  it  would  be  hurtful  to  the  state. 

Q.  Hurtful  in  what  way,  Mr.  Simpson?  A.  In  putting  the  state  in 
unfair  competition  with  other  states. 

Q.  Would  not_  the  possible  harm,  temporary  we  would  hope,  be  offset 
by  the  benefit  coming  from  everyone  in  the  state  getting  a living,  a living 
earned  by  the  male  of  the  family  and  enjoyed  by  wife  and  children  as  well? 
A.  Oh,  I don’t  know  as  to  that;  I couldn’t  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  Is  there  any  connection,  Mr.  Simpson,  any  direct  connection,  be- 
tween the  low  wages  paid  to  a married  man  to  support  a family,  and  vice 
among  women?  A.  My  personal  opinion  is  that  there  is  not. 

Q.  None  at  all?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  is  the  cause  of  vice  among  women,  where  it  comes  from 
economic  conditions?  A.  Environment — home  training. 

Q.  Environment  and  home  training,  do  they  not  depend  somewhat 
upon  the  income  received  by  the  head  of  the  family?  A.  Not  the  mere 
environment. 

Q.  There  is  a difference?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  Mere  environment  is  not  dependent  upon  the  physical  home  at- 
mosphere? A.  I think  not. 

Q.  Bad  housing  has  nothing  to  do  with  morals?  A.  Oh,  I think 


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very_  little;  very  little.  Bad  housing  is  a separate  subject.  It  is  bad  eco- 
nomics; it  is  bad  in  principle. 

Q.  How  are  you  going  to  get  good  housing,  Mr.  Simpson,  without 
the  use  of  money?  A.  Well,  that  helps. 

Q.  Then,  in  all  fairness,  isn’t  there  some  connection  between  wages 
paid  to  the  head  of  the  family,  and  the  moral  atmosphere?  A.  I think 
very  little. 

Q.  But  you  will  admit  that  there  is  some?  A.  Oh,  it  is  infinitesimal. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Q.  You  spoke  about  a Federal  law;  there  are 
some  thirty  states  that  have  started  on  the  same  line  of  work  that  we  are 
on  and  have  appointed  commissions  similar  to  this.  I was  down  to  St. 
Louis  last  week,  and  I attended  two  of  their  sessions  there.  They  had 
business  men  down  there  on  the  stand  and  they  were  asking  the  same 
kind  of  questions  that  we  are  asking,  and  I am  of  the  opinion  that  this 
inquiry  is  going  to  reach  all  over  the  United  States;  I believe  Indiana,  Wis- 
consin, Iowa,  and  some  thirty  odd  states,  have  appointed  commissions  of 
this  kind  to  seek  light  on  the  subject,  and  we  are  here  to  find  out  and 
to  ask  questions,  and  we  are  much  obliged  to  you  for  your  coming  here. 
This  is  all  done  in  a friendly  spirit,  to  help  one  another,  and  if  j'ou  can  give 
us  any  other  pointers,  we  would  like  to  have  them.  A.  I would  like  to  tell 
you  anything  that  3^011  want  to  know. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY;  Now,  in  the  sale  of  3-our  goods,  I believe  that 
you  are  governed,  as  a rule,  your  prices  are  governed  by  the  suppE'  and 
demand?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  as  a rule,  but  sometimes  there  are  exceptions  to  ili'  A. 

Yes. 

Q.  In  hiring  3'our  clerks  and  hiring  your  woman  help  and  man  help, 
isn’t  that  also  controlled  by  the  laws  of  suppE'  and  demand?  A.  Yes,  to 
a very  great  extent. 

Q.  But  there  are  some  exceptions  to  that  rule?  A.  I think  that  is  a 
controlling  factor. 

Q.  And  if  you  should  create  any  law  there  would  still  be  to  ov'er- 
come  that  law  of  suppl3'  and  demand,  is  that  correct?  A.  Yes.  I think  so. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Just  a few  more  questions:  a clerk  starting 
in  your  store,  an  inexperienced  clerk,  would  get  about  how  much?  A. 
How  much? 

Q.  A man  clerk,  what  would  be  the  lowest  that  3'ou  would  pa3’  him — 
eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  I should  think  so. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  he  might  expect  to  receive  as  a clerk? 
A.  Oh,  he  might  go  away  up  the  scale;  he  might  get  up  to  ten  thousand 
dollars  a year. 

Q.  As  a clerk?  A.  As  a salesman,  3'es.  We  have — I should  sa3'  that 
would  be  the  extreme,  though  we  have  men  that  are  getting  that  much. 

Q.  Take  the  retail  stores  on  State  street.  3'ours  for  instance,  what  is 
the  highest  wage  you  paA^  any  man  as  a clerk,  emplo3'ed  on  a salar\'?  A. 
I should  think  it  would  run  up  to  ten  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Commissions  and  salary?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  have  had  clerks  who  have  been  in  the  store  there  a great 
many  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  greatest  period  of  service  in  length  of  time  of  any 
man  clerk  in  your  employ?  A.  Fifty  years — that  ma3'  var}'  two  or  three 
years — possibly  forty-five  or  fifty  years. 


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717 


Q.  How  much  are  those  men  receiving  today?  A.  Oh,  they  are  re- 
ceiving all  sorts  of  salaries,  all  pretty  good  salaries,  all  the  clerks  that 
have  been  there  that  length  of  time  are  receiving  good  salaries. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  amount  paid  any  man  that  has  been  in  your 
employ  between  forty  and  fifty  years?  A.  Doing  any  kind  of  work? 

Q.  No,  as  a clerk?  A.  I can’t  tell  you  that;  I haven’t  the  figures 
on  that. 

Q.  Was  there  celebrated  about  six  months  ago,  the  completion  of 
fifty  years  of  service  by  a man  clerk  in  your  employ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  name  of  that  clerk?  A.  Edward  Nevers. 

Q.  What  is  his  address,  Mr.  Simpson?  A.  He  lives  out  on  Wash- 
ington boulevard. 

Q.  Has  he  been  a clerk  in  the  store  for  fifty  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  mind  telling  the  Committee  how  much  he  is  receiving  to- 
day? A.  Well,  he  gets  a salary  of  six  thousand  dollars  a year  and  com- 
missions, I think;  I have  forgotten  what  that  is,  I think  it  is  about  two 
thousand  dollars;  I think  he  is  getting  eight  thousand  dollars  a year. 

Q.  How  much  was  he  paid  at  the  time  he  started  in  the  store?  A. 
Probably  two  dollars  a week,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Then  in  fifty  years,  he  has  come  up  from  two  dollars  a week  to 
eight  thousand  dollars  a year?  A.  He  has  been  getting  that  for  a long 
time. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  instance  of  that  kind?  A.  Not  any  other 
instance  of  that  kind;  I suppose  not  fifty  years,  but  between  forty  and 
fifty,  I should  say;  we  have  had  innumerable  instances  of  that  kind,  I 
should  say,  perhaps  we  have  had  thirty  men. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  is  the  lowest  paid  to  any  of  those  men?  A. 
I don’t  know  that;  I suppose  we  have  old  fellows  down  in  the  warehouses, 
one  or  two,  who  might  be  getting  fourteen  or  fifteen  dollars  a week,  who 
have  been  there  upwards  of  thirty-five  years;  they  are  on  a pension  really; 
they  come  and  go  as  they  please,  and  there  is  a place  for  them  to  stop. 
They  are  not  worth  anything  to  us  today;  they  are  worthless  today,  but 
they  are  kept  on  the  roll.  They  have  lost  their  value  years  ago,  but  they 
are  there  and  will  be  kept  on  the  roll  as  long  as  they  live. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  receive  any  more  money  than  they  are  paid  today? 
A.  No. 

Q.  They  were  not  paid  any  more  money  than  they  are  paid  today 
and  you.  look  upon  them  as  useless?  A.  No,  they  are  of  no  use  to  us  in 
our  business. 

Q.  Have  you  an  age  limit?  A.  No. 

Q.  None  at  all?  A.  No. 

Q.  Suppose  a man  sixty  years  of  age  should  apply  to  you  for  work 
as  a beginner,  a clerk,  would  he  get  the  job?  A.  No,  sir. 

. Q.  Then  there  is  a sort  of  an  age  limit?  A.  There  might  be  ex- 
ceptions, but  as  a rule,  no. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I want  to  ask  a question  or  two;  your  men 
and  your  women  help  are  about  of  equal  numbers,  pretty  close  together, 
aren’t  they?  A.  I think  so,  about  even. 

Q.  Well,  now,  I want  to  ask  a question  and  I wish  you  would  answer 
it  if  you  are  not  afraid  of  getting  your  hair  pulled  when  you  get  back  to 
the  store;  take  them  all  around,  on  the  average,  the  women  and  the  men, 
are  the  women  as  good  salesladies,  sale  for  sale,  as  the  men?  A.  It  de- 
pends on  the  department;  it  depends  on  the  department.  You  take  a de- 
partment selling  men’s  wear,  and  a man  would  be  the  better  salesman,  but 
in  a department  selling  women’s  wear,  a woman  would  be  the  best  sales- 
man; on  the  other  hand,  in  the  carpet  department,  a man  makes  the  best 
salesman;  it  depends  entirely  upon  the  department  you  put  them  in. 

Q.  Taking  the  average  of  all  your  business,  are  the  women  as  good 


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as  the  men?  Don’t  answer  that  question,  if  you  are  afraid  to;  we  will 
just  pass  it.  A.  I can’t  answer  it  except  as  I have. 

Q.  You  know,  in  passing  through  your  stores,  the  girls  or  the  women 
that  are  salesladies,  you  know  which  are  the  best?  A.  Well,  I would 
not  think  of  employing  a man  in  some  spots,  and  there  are  other  spots  that 
I wouldn’t  think  of  employing  a woman  in. 

Q.  On  an  average,  is  a woman  as  good  as  a man  in  selling  goods? 
A.  Oh,  I don’t  think  I can  answer  that  question  intelligently  otherwise 
than  what  I have. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Let  me  ask  the  question  then  in  another 
way;  with  your  permission,  Senator? 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Yes.  go  ahead. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  How  many  clerks  are  there,  men  and 
women,  in  your  employ  as  clerks?  A.  Three  thousand,  we  will  say. 

Q.  Of  the  three  thousand, _ how  many  are  men  and  how  many  are 
women?  A.  We  will  say  half  and  half. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  it  is  half  and  half?  A.  No,  I am  not  sure;  I am 
guessing  now,  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  ever  looked  it  up?  A.  Yes,  but  I can’t  carry  all 
those  statistics  in  my  head. 

Q.  Suppose  then  it  is  half  and  half,  half  men  and  half  women,  which 
half  will  sell  the  more  goods?  A.  The  men,  I think  would. 

Q.  I wonder  if  you  could  prepare  a little  table  for  us,  showing  the 
men  employed  as  clerks  and  the  total  amount  of  their  sales  for  any  week 
or  any  month,  and  the  total  number  of  women,  and  the  amount  of  their 
sales  for  any  week  or  any  month?  A.  It  would  not  get  you  anywhere, 
because  some  merchandise  runs  up  into  money  quickly,  and  others  do 
not.  ' ' 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Won’t  it  average  up?  Haven’t  you  got  ladies 
that  sell  as  high-priced  goods  as  men?  Wouldn’t  it  average  up?  A.  I 
don’t  believe  so. 

Q.  I believe  that  is  the  point;  if  we  could  get  at  that,  whether  women 
are  equal  to  men  selling  goods  in  stores.  I think  that  point  is  well  taken. 
A.  I don’t  believe  it  would  help  you  any. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I believe  that  women  are  better  than  men,  and 
always  did  believe  in  women,  and  I would  like  to  get  them  above  the  av- 
erage if  you  possibly  can  get  it  figured  out  in  some  way,  and  I believe 
you  can.  Think  it  over  and  see  if  you  can  give  us  anj^  information  in 
that  line. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  table,  if  you  can  prepare  it,  should  show 
the  number  of  men  employed  as  clerks,  and  the  total  of  their  sales,  and 
the  total  profit  in  those  sales,  and  the  total  wage  paid  to  those  man 
clerks,  and  a similar  table  respecting  the  woman  clerks,  and  then  bv  com- 
parison we  can  reach  some  scientific  deduction  as  to  whether  girls  are 
getting  enough  money  as  compared  with  men,  and  also  whether  the  men 
are  getting  enough  money  as  compared  with  girls;  don’t  you  think  that  is 
the  way  to  approach  this  subject  scientifically?  A.  Yes,  I think  it  is  the 
way  to  approach  the  subject;  that  is,  to  get  it  from  statistics.  | 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  the  reason  I ask  the  question;  that  is 
the  only  way,  and  that  struck  me  just  a minute  ago.  if  we  could  get  the 
average  sales,  then  we  could  find  out  whether  the  ladies  were  as  good  as 
the  men  in  selling  goods. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  think  that  this  Committee  could 
really  solve  this  problem  scientifically  without  having  the  wages  paid,  the 
total  amount  of  sales  and  the  profit  in  those  sales?  A.  Oh,  I don’t  think 
that  that  has  any  bearing  on  it;  I don’t  think  it  will  help  you  at  all  the 
least  bit,  because  the  conditions  under  which  the  men  are  emploj'ed  are 
so  different  than  the  conditions  under  which  the  women  are  employed; 
there  are  spots  where  you  can’t  employ  one,  and  there  are  spots  where 
you  can’t  employ  the  other. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I know  it,  Mr.  Simpson;  that  is  a point  well 


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719 


taken,  but  all  over  the  country,  women  are  not  paid  as  much  as  men  are 
paid,  are  they?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  now,  if  the  average  woman  in  your  store,  on  the  average 
of  all  your  help,  can  sell  as  much  goods  as  your  men  and  make  as  much 
profit  for  you,  and  do  just  as  good  work  in  certain  departments,  we  can 
come  to  some  conclusion  whether  the  woman  is  entitled  to  as  much  salary 
as  the  man.  It  is  all  over  the  country  that  women  are  getting  less  salaries 
than  men,  and  we  have  found  places  where  they  have  been  paying  them 
as  low  as  two  dollars  a week,  or  a dollar  and  eighty  cents  a week,  and  if 
you  merchants  could  show  by  some  calculation  or  figures,  that  the  women 
are  selling  as  much  goods  as  the  men  are,  and  are  just  as  good  clerks  in 
every  way,  then  I think  they  ought  to  be  entitled  to  as  much  of  a salary 
as  the  men.  A.  Yes,  surely. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Do  you  think  that  because  they  are  not  re- 
ceiving as  much  is  because  there  is  a larger  supply  of  women  than  of 
men?  A.  No,  my  impression  is  that  they  are  not  worth  as  much  as  men 
are. 

Q.  There  is  more  of  a supply  of  women  in  accordance  with  the  de- 
mand, isn’t  there?  A.  I think  so. 

Mr.  Edward  Lehmann’s  Testimony. 

EDWARD  LEHMANN,  called  as  a witness  by  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edward 
Lehmann. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Dry  goods  business,  department  store 
business. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  examination  of  the  witness  will  now 
be  conducted  by  Senator  Beall. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I have  onh^  got  one  question  to  ask  him  and  that 
is,  who  sells  the  most  goods  on  the  average,  in  your  business — the  women 
or  the  men?  A.  That  depends  on  what  department  they-  are  in. 

Q.  In  that  could  you  strike  an  average?  A.  I don’t  know  but  1 
could  answer  that  question  a little  hit  different.  We  have  got  some  girls 
in  our  store  who  sell  more  goods,  would  sell  more  goods,  in  many  depart- 
ments, than  men;  we  have  got  more  girls  in  our  store  than  men.  more 
high-salaried  girls  than  men. 

Q.  Take  the  men  and  women  in  your  store,  they  are  about  equal, 
are  they  not?  A.  No,  it  is  about  one-third. 

Q.  Could  you  give  us  the  facts,  if  a woman  would  average  as  much 
in  sales  as  a man,  taking  all  departments?  A.  Right  off-hand,  I would 
say  they  do. 

Q.  Sell  as  much  as  the  men?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  think  they  do?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ?  A.  Salesmen? 

Q.  Yes,  on  your  pay-roll?  A.  Four  hundred  and  seventeen. 

Q.  Four  hundred  and  seventeen  men?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  will  their  averages  run?  A.  In  what,  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Salaries?  A.  The  average  salary  is  fourteen  dollars  and  forty- 
eight  cents;  that  is  exclusive  of  any  percentages. 

Q.  Fourteen  dollars  and  forty-eight  cents?  A.  That  is  our  drawing 
account;  then  we  have  this  percentage  basis  in  our  store. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  price  paid?  A.  Fourteen  forty-eight  is  the 
average;  the  lowest  price  paid  is  ten  or  twelve  dollars  a week;  those  are 
porters  and  young  men  around  the  store. 

Q.  That  is  your  lowest  wages?  A.  Except  possibly,  we  pay  boys 
five  or  six  or  seven  dollars,  or  eight  dollars  a week. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  You  don’t  have  any  boys  employed  in  the  store?  A.  No,  we  don’t 
use  them,  only  the  wagon  boys  and  errand  boys. 

Q.  I believe  there  are  about  eighteen  hundred  girls  in  your  store? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  a scale  for  your  married  men?  A.  No  scale  at  all;  you 
know  they  fill  out  applications. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  If  a married  man  applies  for  a porter’s  job,  he  can’t 
go  on  that  porter’s  job  for  less  than  twelve  dollars  a week. 

Q.  That  is  what  Mr.  Simpson  said,  he  paid  his  married  men  twelve 
dollars  a week.  A.  If  we  put  them  on  at  all,  the^'  are  put  on  at  twelve 
dollars  a week,  but  we  aim  to  get  these  younger  men  if  we  can,  but  we 
don’t  refuse  married  men  jobs. 

Q.  Those  men  ought  to  have  the  preference?  A.  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of 
those  four  hundred  and  seventeen  men?  A.  Ten  and  twelve  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  four  hundred  and  seventeen  are  paid  between 
ten  and  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  There  will  be  about  between  seventy 
and  seventy-five. 

Q.  Among  those  seventy  or  seventy-five  people,  are  there  any  married 
men?  A.  Yes,  I think  there  are;  I know  there  are.- 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  of  those  married  men  have  children? 
A.  I don’t  know. 

Q.  How  much  would  you  say,  Mr.  Lehmann,  that  a man  could  sup- 
port a wife  and  one  daughter  on  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  That  would 
be  pretty  hard  to  say;  I really  don’t  know. 

Q.  Can  he  do  it  on  ten  dollars  a week?  A.  I should  not  think  that 
he  could. 

Q..  Can  he  do  it  on  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  It  would  be  very 
hard;  do  you  mean  if  he  only  had  one  child? 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  and  she  a daughter  of  about  sixteen  years  of  age.  A.  Un- 
less she  helped  somewhat,  it  would  be  very  hard  for  him. 

Q.  Then  you  think,  Mr.  Lehmann,  that  the  daughter  would  be  forced 
to  help  out  on  the  income?  A.  Well,  to  get  them  along  fairly  well.  They 
might  exist  on  it,  but  that  is  about  all.  But  the  more  income  coming 
in  would  help  them  a little  better. 

Q.  You  would  not  say,  Mr.  Lehmann,  that  in  many  cases  it  would 
be  an  impossibility  for  a famih'  of  three,  a father  and  mother  and  daughter 
of  sixteen,  to  exist  on  ten  or  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  It  would  be 
very  hard. 

Q.  Very  hard?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  would. 

Q.  Then,,  the  economic  condition  would  force  the  girl  of  sixteen  out 
into  the  business  world?  A.  I presume  it  would,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  the  business  world  she  would  come  in  competition  with 
men,  wouldn’t  she,  in  the  way  of  being  taken  into  your  store  as  a clerk? 
A.  She  would  come  in  contact  with  men. 

Q.  No;  come  in  competition  with  them?  A.  No,  not  at  sixteen  years 
of  age,  she  would  not. 

Q.  You  employ  no  clerks  at  sixteen?  A.  No,  they  have  got  to  start 
right  in  and  work  up. 

Q.  She  starts  in,  and  in  a j^ear  or  two  she  works  up  into  a clerkship? 
A.  Yes,  if  she  is  good,  she  can  work  right  up  in  there. 

Q.  Then,  as  a clerk,  she  does  come  in  competition  with  men?  A. 
She  might,  in  several  years,  come  in  competition  with  men,  but  she  would 
not  in  those  first,  second  or  third  years,  possibly. 

Q.  But  when  she  does  become  a clerk,  she  does  come  in  competition 
with  men  because  she  does  the  work  of  men;  isn’t  that  true?  A.  No. 
she  would  be  in  another  department;  she  would  have  a center  table,  or 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


721 


f 

« in  the  middle  of  an  aisle  you  could  not  compare  that  with  a girl  if  she 
started  at  sixteen  years  of  age_;  she  is  perhaps  twenty  or  twenty-one  or 
two  years  old,  and  then  she  might  be  up  in  the  cloak  department,  or  go 
away  ahead  of  the  men. 

Q.  Finally  she  does  compete  with  men?  A.  As  her  ability  shows, 

yes. 

Q.  Then  this  girl  helper  as  a rule  is  paid  less  than  the  man  helper? 
A.  i didn’t  say  that. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  believe  that  to  be  true?  A.  I don't  bellieve  that  to 
be  true  in  all  cases. 

Q.  You  don’t?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 

Q.  On  the  average?  A.  No,  I dont  think  so. 

Q.  You  shouldn’t  say  so?  A.  No. 

; Q.  The  point  I am  trying  to  get  at  is  that  the  girl  is  forced  out  into 

i the  business  world,  into  the  industrial  world,  by  the  insufficiency  of  the 
! wages  of  her  father?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  in  that  industrial  world,  she  there,  immediately^  or  finally, 
comes  into  competition  with  men,  and  because  of  that  competition  forces 
: down  the  wages  of  the  men;  you  don’t  think  that  happens?  A.  No,  I 
, don’t  think  so;  I don’t  so  regard  it.  I think  it  is  just  the  other  way.  We 
: have  got  girls  that  started  in  there  at  sixteen  years  of  age.  One  girl  in 
particular — I just  cite  that  because  a buyer  went  to  New  York  about  two 
, weeks  ago,  and  I had  in  mind  one  of  these  girls  who  is  working  for  us.  and 
I'  I said  to  the  buyer,  “Why  don’t  you  take  Miss  Gatz  along;  why  don’t  you 
; take  her  along  and  show  her  the  ropes?”  and  she  said  she  would  be  very 
1 glad  to.  This  girl  came  to  me  and  said,  “I  want  to  thank  you  very  heartily 
i:  for  giving  me  this  opportunity  to  go  to  New  York.”  I says,  “I  guess  you 
!|  deserve  it;  how  long  have  you  been  here?”  She  says  “I  have  been  here 
1 eight  years.”  I says,  “What  did  you  start  at?”  She  says  “Four  dollars 
: a week.”  I asked  her  “What  do  you  get  now?’  She  says,  “I  am  getting 
' twenty-six  dollars  a week  now.”  Now,  you  see,  we  are  pushing  her  along. 
The  men  do  not  keep  the  girls  back  and  the  girls  do  not  keep  the  men 
back;  it  all  depends  on  their  ability. 

Q.  How  many  men  clerks  and  women  clerks  have  you;  how  many 
employes?  A.  Women  employes  selling  goods? 

: Q.  No;  in  your  store  there  are  four  hundred  and  seventeen  men,  and 

li  that  includes  all  the  man  employes?  A.  Yes,  all  the  men  employed. 

ii  Q.  You  also  have  a similar  classification  of  women?  A.  Well,  that 
means  what?  Girls  and  everything? 

Q.  Everything?  A.  I should  judge  ten  or  eleven  hundred. 

!|  Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  there,  do  you  recall?  A.  Nine 

dollars,  or  something  like  that,  without  percentages, 
i Q.  Then  the  average  wage  to  women  is  nine  dollars,  and  the  average 
wage  to  men  is  fourteen  dollars  and  forty-eight  cents?  A.  Without  any 
percentage;  the  more  goods  they  sell  the  more  salary  they  earn. 

! Q.  The  average  would  hold  true  of  both  women  and  men?  A.  Oh, 

i|  the  women  have  the  same,  practically,  as  the  men. 

Q.  But  on  the  salary  end  of  it,  the  average  wage  to  men  is  higher 
I than  the  average  wage  to  women?  A.  Yes,  because  of  the  different 
classes  of  work. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

! SENATOR  TOSSEY : Q.  Do  you  think  the  supply  has  got  anything 
; to  do  with  the  wages  paid  to  women  or  men?  A.  What  do  you  mean? 
j;  Q.  _If  the  supply  is  plenty,  you  will  get  cheaper  help?  A.  No,  I 
; don’t  think  so. 

Q.  And  if  it  is  scarce,  you  will  have  to  pay  more?  A.  We  are  paying 
i;  more  for  help  within  the  last  four  years  than  ever  before. 

!j  Q._  That  is  because  it  has  been  scarce?  A.  No,  there  is  greater  op- 
portunity and  greater  demand  for  labor. 


722  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  But  labor  has  been  a little  scarce?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  takes  a higher  price  to  get  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

senator  BEALL:  Would  you  prepare  a little  table  for  us;  take 
your  time  to  it,  and  take  the  average  of  the  amount  paid  your  male  and 
female  help,  and  the  sales — on  most  goods  along  similar  lines — I presume 
you  keep  a record  showing  your  profits  on  all  those  things?  A.  In  what 
way? 

Q.  We  want  to  prepare  a table,  if  we  possibly  can,  and  I think  we 
can,  that  is,  get  the  figures  from  the  different  merchants  throughout  the 
country — A.  Let  me  get  an  idea  of  what  you  want  to  get  at. 

Q.  Suppose  you  have  nine  hundred  men  and  nine  hundred  women, 
strike  an  average  of  the  sales  of  them  and  show  which  sells  more.  A.  We 
have  more  women  than  men. 

Q.  Well,  take  the  same  number.  A.  I will  see  if  I can  get  that  out 
for  you.  The  number  of  sales  would  be  greater  by  the  women — the  num- 
ber of  sales. 

Q.  See  if  you  can  find  out  the  profits  of  them  all.  A.  I don’t  know 
if  I can  or  not. 

Q.  If  you  will  prepare  a table,  let  us  see  what  you  can  do.  A.  All 
right,  I will  see  if  1 can  do  that. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  all. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  That  is  all,  Mr.  Lehman;  thank  you. 

Mr.  David  R.  Forgan’s  Testimony. 

DAVID  R.  FORGAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  b}'  Senator  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  David  R.  Forgan. 

Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  I am  president  of  the  National 
City  Bank. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  there?  A.  Under  officers,  as 
clerks,  one  hundred  and  twenty. 

Q.  One  hundred  twenty  as  clerks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid?  A.  The  average  is  within  a 
few  cents  of  eighty  dollars  a month. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  age  approximately?  A.  Well,  we  are  a 
new  bank  and  our  men  are  rather  young;  of  course,  we  have  employed 
most  of  them  as  boys  and  promoted  them.  We  have  only  been  running 
six  years,  so  our  average  is  probably  about  twenty-five. 

Q.  Among  the  120,  quite  a number  of  them  were  with  the  bank 
when  it  started  six  years  ago?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  of  the  number  that  started  with  you?  A, 
It  couldn’t  be  very  many,  because  w-e  only  started  with  twentj'-five  em- 
ployes, all  told. 

Q.  It  would  be  a comparatively  small  proportion,  then?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  the  120  clerks?  A.  The 
lowest  wage  paid  is  $25  a month. 

Q.  That  wage  is  paid  to  a clerk,  a man  doing  clerical  work?  A. 
Well,  no,  that  is  paid  to  what  we  would  call  office  boys,  or  probably  bell 
boys;  they  answer  the  bell  and  bring  something  to  an  officer  from  the 
files,  or  whatever  he  wants.  Then  thej"  sit  down  and  wait  until  the  bell 
rings  again. 

Q.  How  old  are  those  boys?  A.  They  come  in  at  about  16  or  17 
years  of  age,  mostl}". 

Q.  And  how  many  years  do  they  remain  as  a rule,  doing  that  kind 
of  work?  A.  About  six  months. 

Q.  Are  there  ever  cases  where  they  remain  longer  than  a 3-ear?  A. 
No,  1 should  not  think  they  would  remain  longer  than  a year;  if  the3-  didn’t 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


723 


show  some  intelligence  during  the  year,  that  we  thought  we  could  make 
clerks  of  them,  we  would  tell  them  that  they  better  get  in  some  other 
line  of  business. 

Q.  Then  that  is  really  an  apprenticeship?  A.  In  a way,  yes. 

I Q.  And  at  the  end  of  six  months  or  a year,  when  they  have  shown 
some  signs  of  usefulness,  in  the  future,  their  wages  are  increased?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  much  would  you  say  the  average  goes,  Mr.  Forgan? 
I A.  Well,  the  average  increase  is  usually  five  dollars  a month,  and  that 
I may  occur  once  or  twice  a year. 

Q.  Now,  with  that  increase,  does  the  nature  of  the  duties  to  be  per- 
formed change?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  gradual  change  there?  A.  Well,  they  can  do 
■ simple  forms  of  clerical  work;  we  do  a great  deal  of  clerical  work  by 
machines  now,  adding  machines,  and  so  forth;  they  can  be  learning  how 
to  handle  these  things  and  doing  all  simple  forms  of  clerical  work,  such 
as  the  listing  of  checks,  the  same  things  over  and  over  again;  it  is  a 
simple  matter,  but  of  course  it  requires  accuracy. 

Q.  When  they  have  reached  eighty  dollars  a month,  which  is  the 
average  paid,  about  what  kind  of  work  are  they  doing  then?  A.  Well, 
they  are  statement  clerks,  making  regular  statements  to  customers  for  the 
month,  or  keeping  certain  books  or  putting  through  the  out-of-town 
checks;  they  are  registered;  if  we  cash  a check  on  Peoria,  we  have  to  send 
it  down  there  to  get  the  money  and  we  have  to  keep  some  kind  of  a record 
for  it  while  it  is  gone,  and  they  would  make  that  kind  of  a record. 

' Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  paid  any  of  the  120  clerks  included  in 
this  average?  A.  The  highest  is  three  thousand  dollars  a year;  he  is 
chief  clerk. 

Q.  Three  thousand  dollars  a year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  the  wage  is  from  $25  a month  to  $3,000  a year,  in  this 
class?  A.  As  clerks,  yes. 

Q.  And  the  chief  clerk,  as  a rule,  not  in  your  bank,  but  in  the  average 
1 bank,  as  a rule,  has  spent  quite  a number  of  years  in  the  banking  service? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  generally  is  a man  well  along  in  middle  life?  A.  Well,  I 
I think,  generally,  but  in  other  banks  they  get  a larger  salary. 

Q.  How  many  of  the  120  clerks  are  receiving  more  than  two  fliousand 
dollars  a year?  A.  There  is  only  two  receiving  more  than  two  thousand 
dollars  a year  in  my  office. 

Q.  How  many  receiving  more  than  a thousand  dollars  a year?  A. 
About  forty. 

Q.  Of  those  receiving  less  than  a thousand  dollars  a year,  are  any 
of  them  married?  A.  There  may  be  one  or  two  cases,  but  we  have  a rule 
connected  with  our  pension  fund  that  no  one  is  to  get  married  in  our 
employ  who  is  earning  less  than  one  thousand  dollars  a year,  without  the 
consent  of  the  officers  of  the  bank,  say  the  president,  and  in  such  case,  we 
would  look  into  it.  Of  course,  circumstances  alter  cases;  the  girl  whom  he 
married  might  have  some  income  and  then  we  might  consent  to  it,  but 
without  such  exceptional  cases,  we  don’t  allow  our  men  to  remain  in  the 
service  and  get  married  under  a thousand  dollars  a year. 

Q.  What  is  the  underlying  reason  for  that  rule,  Mr.  Forgan?  A. 
Well,  I suppose,  as  I said,  it  was  a rule  of  the  pension  fund,  which  is  a fund 
; established  by  the  men  themselves  into  which  they  pay  a certain  propor- 
tion of  their  salary,  and  under  which  they  have  certain  rights  when  they 
become  of  a certain  age.  If  they  leave  the  service  they  can  take  what 
they  paid  into  it  out;  it  is  like  a savings  fund.  It  is  under  that  rule,  more 
; for  the  protection  of  the  fund  than  for  any  other  reason,  that  the  rule  is 
made;  for  the  protection  of  the  pension  fund,  against  people  getting 
married  and  perhaps  getting  into  our  life  or  something  of  that  sort,  and 
having  a lot  of  difficulties  and  being  dependent  upon  the  benefits  of  either 
the  bank  or  the  fund. 


724  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Ihis  rule,  then,  is  made  by  the  men  themselves?  A.  In  our  case, 
it  is,  yes. 

Q.  And  enforced  by  the  bank?  A.  At  the  request  of  the  men,  yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  really  believe  that  to  be  a good  work,  do  3'^ou,  Mr.  Forgan? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  I do. 

Q.  You  believe  that  no  man  should  marry  when  he  is  receiving  less 
income  than  a thousand  dollars  a year  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  I 
would  say  I don’t  think  any  clerk  in  a bank  should  marry  on  less  than 
that.  Of  course,  men  have  to  live  differently;  a clerk  in  a bank  probably 
has  to  dress  a little  better  than  a workman  would,  and  things  like  that. 
A workman  might  marry  on  less  than  that  and  get  along,  perhaps,  better 
than  a clerk  would  on  that. 

Q.  Would  you  say,  Mr.  Forgan,  that  the  clerk  in  the  bank  should 
dress  better  than  a clerk  in  a store,  for  instance?  A.  No;  I don’t  think  so; 
about  the  same. 

Q.  And  you  make  it  a rule  that  any  clerk  you  have  must  be  getting 
a thousand  dollars  a year  before  marriage,  do  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  then,  Mr.  Forgan,  that  there  is  some  connection 
between  the  wages  paid  the  head  of  the  household  and  the  home  atmos- 
phere? A.  Oh,  yes;  I think  there  is  some  connection. 

Q.  And  that  that  home  atmosphere  has  something  to  do  with  the 
upbringing  of  girls  in  that  home?  A.  Yes,  I think  so. 

Q.  And  you  believe,  of  course,  Mr.  Forgan,  that  all  men  should 
marry?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know;  I have  my  doubts  about  that. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  If  he  could  support  a wife,  you  mean?  A.  If 
he  could  support  a wife  properly,  I suppose  it  would  be  better  for  him 
to  marry. 

Q.  Have  you  any  girls  in  your  employ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  Thirt^’-one. 

Q.  What  do  those  girls  do,  Mr.  Eorgan?  A.  The^-,  some  of  them 
are  stenographers,  and  a good  many  of  them  are  emplo3'ed  at  what  is 
called  our  transit  department,  in  which  they  write  form  letters  containing 
the  lists  of  checks,  collections  and  all  that  sort  of  things,  going  to 
different  places. 

Q.  Do  you  find  girls  profitable  in  3fOur  employ'?  A.  Yes,  sir;  for 
that  kind  of  work  they  are  very  good. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  stenographers  in  Chicago?  A.  I 
don’t  know  what  the  average  wage  in  Chicago  is;  I can  tell  3'ou  our 
average;  the  average  that  we  pa3'  our  girls  is  just  within  a few  cents  of 
sixty  dollars  a month. 

Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald’s  Testimony. 

JULIUS  ROSENWALD,  called  as  a witness  for  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  by  Senator  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

Q.  What  is  your  name?  A.  Julius  Rosenwald. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Mail  order  business;  president  of  Sears- 
Roebuck  & Company. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  emplo3'ed  by  your  corporation,  kir.  Rosen- 
wald? A.  The  total  number  of  adult  male  emplo3'es  is  4,171. 

Q.  How  many  minors?  A.  The  number  under  21  is  1,289. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  the  1,289  under  21  3-ears?  A. 
Seven  dollars  and  eighty-one  cents. 

Q.  What  is  the  low-est  wage  paid  to  an3'  male  emplo3-e^under  21 
years?  A.  The  lowest  is  five  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  are  emplo3’^ed  at  five  dollars?  A.  I haven’t  those 
figures. 

Q.  Approximately,  Mr.  Rosenwald?  A.  I have  no  figures  to  guide  me 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


725 


on  that.  We  have  the  statistics  and  they  are  at  your  disposal,  but  I 
haven’t  them  here. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  paid  to  any  male  employe  under  21 
years  of  age?  A.  I haven’t  that  figure  here,  either. 

Q.  The  only  figures  which  you  have  here  is  the  average,  which  is 
$7.81?  A.  I would  not  say  that  that  is  the  only  figures;  I have  other 
figures. 

Q.  What  other  figures  have  you  regarding  employes  under  21  years 
of  age?  A.  Under  21?  I have  the  average  salary,  which  you  have,  the 
maximum  starting  wage  for  boys. 

Q.  Which  is  five  dollars?  A.  Five  dollars  for  boys  under  16  and 
six  dollars  for  boys  over  16. 

Q.  Six  dollars  is  the  lowest  for  boys  over  16?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  are  there  in  your  employ  under  16?  A.  I have  no 
figures  on  the  number. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  paid  to  men  over  21  years  of  age  in  your 
[employ?  A.  The  average  salary  to  adult  male  employes  is  $18.82. 

Q.  That  is  the  average  of  those  over  21  years  of  age,  is  it?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  over  21  years  of  age  in 
your  employ?  A.  We  hire  no  man  over  21  years  of  age  at  a salary  of 
less  than  twelve  dollars. 

Q.  That  is,  that  no  man  over  21  years  of  age  is  getting  less  than 
twelve  dollars?  A.  That  is  my  understanding;  I won’t  make  that  as  a 
■statement;  he  may  have  come  in  under  another  age  and  he  may  not  have 
Ireached  the  twelve  dollars  salary,  but  when  we  hire  them,  if  they  are  21; 
if,  when  we  hire  them,  they  are  21,  our  starting  salary  is  twelve  dollars; 
21  years  or  over. 

Q.  But  if  they  come  in  at  15  and  work  up,  they  might  pass  21  and 
(receive  less  than  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  That  is  possible;  I am  not 
prepared  to  say  what  the  conditions  are. 

Q.  Have  you  a minimum  wage  paid  to  married  men  in  your  employ? 

Yes. 

Q.  What  is  that  minimum?  A.  We  hire  no  married  men  at  less  than 
■Twelve  dollars  a week. 

Q.  How  many  men  in  your  employ  are  receiving  twelve  dollars  a 
Week?  A.  I haven’t  that  information. 

Q.  You  haven’t  the  information  with  you  of  how  many  men  are 
■•eceiving  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  any  statistics,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  as  to  the  number  of 
narried  men  you  have  in  your  employ?  A.  I have  no  statistics,  Governor 
D’Hara. 

j Q.  Do  you  keep  such  statistics?  A.  I think  we  know  how  many 
lire  married,  to  the  best  of  our  knowledge;  of  course,  if  a man  would  be 
i inarried  without  our  knowledge  after  he  had  been  employed,  we  might  not 
[■  enow  of  it,  but  when  we  hire  them  we  keep  a record  of  those  that  we 
enow  are  married  when  they  are  hired. 

Q.  Do  you  also  endeavor  to  keep  a record  showing  the  size  of  the 
; .amily,  the  number  of  children  in  the  families  of  the  men  who  work  for 
'rou?  A.  I would  not  say  as  to  that,  but  I think  we  do. 

( ; Q.  And  do  you  pay  the  man  in  your  employ  who  has  children  more 
; :han  you  pay  the  man  in  your  employ  who  has  only  one  child?  A.  I don’t 
hink  that  is  taken  into  consideration. 

; Q.  There  is  a minimum  wage  fixed  for  married  men,  but  there  is  no 
j ninimum  wage  fixed  for  married  men  with  a family  of  children?  A.  I 
,hink  that  is  correct. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  an  investigation,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  as 
? (o  the  amount  of  money  upon  which  a man  can  support  a wife  and  one 
;•  :hild?  A.  No,  sir. 

V ■ Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  any  such  investigation  being  conducted 
;>y  anyone?  A.  No,  sir. 


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Q.  Do  you  believe  that  such  an  investigation  should  be  conducted? 
A.  I have  no  opinion  to  express. 

Q.  You  have  no  opinion  to  express  on  that  subject  or  upon  any 
similar  subject  that  may  be  introduced?  A.  Well,  I don’t  have  an  opinion; 
I don’t  care  to  volunteer  opinions  to  this  Committee. 

Q-  , You  are  willing  to  give  the  Committee  any  information,  but  not 
any  opinion?  A.  I am  willing  to  give  them  facts  that  I know  about; 
I am  willing  to  give  them  that. 

Q.  Can  you  prepare  and  give  to  this  Committee  a statement  showing 
the  number  of  men  or  boys  who  are  receiving  five  dollars  a week  in  your 
service,  and  the  number  receiving  six  dollars  a week  and  on  up.  In  other 
words,  of  the  1,289  males  under  21  j^ears  of  age,  who  are  getting  an 
average  wage  of  $7.81  a week,  will  you  prepare  a statement  and  give  to 
this  Committee  showing  the  number  who  are  receiving  the  different  speci- 
fied amounts?  A.  I shall  try  to;  I don’t  know  how  long  that  will  require; 
probably  that  will  be  quite  a laborious  task. 

Q.  Could  you,  Mr.  Rosenwald,  also  prepare  a statement  showing  the 
number  of  married  men  in  your  employ?  A.  I suppose  that  could  be 
prepared. 

Q.  Also  the  wage  paid  to  those  married  men?  A.  If  it  can  be  gotten, 
I will  be  very  glad  to  furnish  the  Committee  with  it. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEAL:  I have  one  question,  Mr.  Rosenwald;  what  is  j'our 
opinion  of  the  ability  as  between  the  male  and  female  employees  of  your 
place  so  far  as  their  quickness  and  aptness  in  filling  orders,  and  so  forth? 
A.  I have  no  opinion  to  express. 

Q.  Well,  couldn’t  you  answer  the  question,  which  you  think  is  best, 
which  can  do  the  most,  the  men  or  the  women?  A.  I would  rather  not 
give  any  opinions  to  this  Committee  except  on  matters  of  fact  that  I know 
about. 

Q.  But  all  of  the  other  gentlemen  we  have  talked  to  this  morning 
were  very  glad  to  assist  us  in  the  matter;  of  course,  y^ou  could  not  give  the 
same  information  as  they,  because  you  haven’t  a retail  business,  but  it  is  a 
problem  that  we  would  like  to  solve,  if  the  women  are  as  capable  of  doing 
business  for  the  different  concerns,  as  well  as  men.  That  is  a very  easy 
question.  I could  tell,  it  seems  to  me,  by  going  through  the  factories  or 
stores,  if  I had  one,  whether  a man  was  better  than  a woman,  or  whether 
a man  could  do  as  well  or  better,  and  I think  it  would  be  an  easy  matter 
for  you;  you  employ  more  men  than  women?  A.  We  employ'  more  men 
than  women. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : Doesn’t  the  law  of  supply'  and  demand  govern 
the  wages  as  a rule?  A.  Well,  I think  that  is  purely  a matter  of  opinion, 
and  I would  rather  not  express  opinions  of  that  kind. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  here  to  learn;  you  are  a man  of  busi- 
ness and  have  been  in  business  all  your  life,  and  y'ou  have  got  as  much 
sense  and  probably  more  than  we  have;  now,  can’t  you  give  us  that 
opinion  in  your  own  way;  it  is  very  simple,  as  to  whether  the  woman  is 
as  good  as  the  man  in  the  different  classes  or  departments  that  they  are 
employed  in;  for  instance,  take  girls  packing — take  some  certain  article: 
can  the  girls  do  as  good  work  as  the  men?  Now  that  is  a simple  question 
to  answer.  We  want  your  opinion?  A.  I think  I evidenced  my'  good 
intentions  to  this  Committee  on  a previous  investigation,  and  that  I wanted 
to  be  as  helpful  to  them  as  I could.  I am  willing  to  give  y'OU  any'  facts. 
Senator,  of  which  I have  knowledge,  but  not  to  volunteer  opinions. 

Q.  You  are  not  volunteering  anything;  you  are  asked  the  question. 
A.  There  is  nothing  we  will  not  give  you,  as  I told  y'ou  when  I was  here 
previously,  so  far  as  any  facts  pertaining  to  our  business  is  concerned: 
we  turned  over  our  pay-rolls  to  this  Committee,  and  I think  we  were  the 
only  people  who  did  turn  over  our  pay-rolls  to  this  Committee.  We  tried 
to  be  as  open  as  we  could  be  with  you;  we  gave  y'ou  the  name  of  every 
female  employ'e  in  our  institution,  with  the  salaries  paid  to  them. 


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727 


SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  finding  no  fault  with  what  you  have 
done;  we  want  to  sit  down  and  have  a plain  business  talk;  every  business 
man  in  Chicago  is  willing  to  sit  down  and  talk  and  we  have  had  Mr. 
Simpson  and  Mr.  Hillman  and  Mr.  Lehmann  here  this  morning  and  we 
have  asked  them  the  same  question  that  I have  asked  you.  In  Missouri 
they  are  doing  the  same  thing  they  are  here.  I was  in  St.  Louis  last  week 
and  I attended  their  investigations  down  there.  We  are  not  here  to  tell 
you  how  you  should  run  your  business,  but  trying  to  ask  for  your  opinion 
because  we  know  that  you  have  had  the  experience;  and  if  you  have  the 
experience,  if  you  have  the  good-will  -of  people,  or  want  to  get  the  good- 
will of  the  people  here,  why,  aren’t  you  willing  to  give  us  your  opinion? 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  I have  been  through  this  performance  with  this 
Committee  on  a previous  occasion,  and  I found  that  the  things  that  were 
emphasized  and  brought  out,  were  the  things  which  should  not  have  been; 
everything  was  turned  absolutely  in  the  direction  of  trying  to  make  it 
appear,  and  to  lay  particular  emphasis  on  the  fact  that  $5  a week  have  been 
paid,  for  the  benefit  of  the  people  at  large.  And  I want  to  say  to  you 
gentlemen  that  I am  perfectly  in  accord  with  the  minimum  wage,  properly 
gotten  at  on  a proper  basis,  as  I stated  in  the  previous  investigation,  but 
when  the  investigation  is  conducted  in  the  manner  that  this  is,  I don’t 
believe  that  it  is  tending  in  a direction  to  produce  results.  For  that 
reason  I shall  not  offer  an  opinion.  I shall  be  very  glad  to  give  you  any 
information  of  facts  concerning  our  business.  You  can  have  anything  you 
want,  and  that  does  not  differ  from  any  other  position  that  we  have  taken. 
; Anybody  can  have  it  if  he  asks  for  it.  Our  business  has  always  been  an 
open  matter,  we  have  never  tried  to  keep  anything  secret  from  the  public. 
We  have  never  done  anything  that  we  are  ashamed  of.  You  have  had 
■ our  pay-roll,  which  we  gave  you  upon  request  at  the  last  meeting  that  T 
l|  was  here. 

(:!  SENATOR  BEALL:  You  seem  to  misunderstand  me.  I believe  the 

Committee,  so  far  as  I know,  treated  you  with  the  utmost  courtesy,  I am 
sure,  and  I am  trying  to  do  it.  I can’t  be  any  nicer  to  you  than  I am 
■ now;  I can’t  talk  any  nicer  to  you  if  I tried  every  way  in  the  world.  If 
i;  I have  done  anything  to  offend  you,  I am  ready  to  apologize.  You  are  not 
i-  complaining  of  any  offence  on  the  part  of  the  Committee,  but  we  can’t 
1 help  what  people  on  the  outside  are  doing,  if  you  are  not  finding  fault  with 
Y us.  If  a man  were  to  ask  me  for  an  opinion  on  any  matter,  I think  I would 
j;  be  willing  to  give  him  an  opinion.  I might  be  mistaken,  because  I have 
Y lived  three  score  years  and  five,  and  I think  I have  been  around  about  as 
ji;  much  as  the  most  of  you  have;  I thought  I knew  it  all  before  I got  on  this 
Committee,  but  I have  learned  lots  since,  and  there  is  none  of  us  who  are 
[;■  too  old  to  learn. 

■i  MR.  ROSENWALD:  If  you  will  look  over  my  testimony,  I think  you 
I®  will  find  I testified  for,  I think,  about  two  hours  and  answered  every 
II  question  asked  me. 

J SENATOR  BEALL:  I am  not  finding  any  fault  with  that.  I am 
trying  to  get  down  and  get  some  information  here  and  I want  you  to 
'll  help  me.  I can’t  be  mistaken.  I have  asked  you  a plain  question  and 
if  there  is  no  reason  that  I can  see,  for  your  refusing  to  answer. 

MR.  ROSENWALD:  I cannot  reply  to  questions  on  which  I cannot 
and  have  no  absolute  facts  to  back  them  up  with.  Everything  that  are 
facts  concerning  our  business,  as  I said  before,  you  are  welcome  to  in  any 
: shape  or  manner.  We  have  nothing  to  hide. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  seem  to  be  the  only  one  we  have  found  so 
■ far  who  seems  to  misinterpret  our  intentions.  We  have  been  sent  here 
’ from  the  Senate  to  inquire  into  certain  matters.  Now,  we  are  trying  to 
get  the  question  of  girl  labor  and  man  labor  straightened  out.  Now,  if 
i;  you  would  answer  the  question  one  way  or  the  other,  as  Mr.  Lehmann  or 
['  Mr.  Simpson  have  answered  the  question;  and  we  didn’t  first  put  them 
t under  oath,  but  just  asked  them  in  a friendly  way,  just  as  we  have  met 
I you  in  a friendly  way,  and  they  have  answered.  A.  I can’t  give  you  that 
I information;  there  is  no  basis  for  that  so  far  as  I can  see. 

I'  Q.  Don’t  you  know,  as  a man  of  business,  whether  your  female 


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workers  are  as  good  as  your  male  workers?  A.  'That  is  like  asking: 
Don’t  you  believe  that  the  women  are  better  than  the  men? 

Q.  We  are  talking  about  the  one  that  can  do  the  work,  can  make 
the  most  money  for  you;  that  is  our  question.  A.  It  may  seem  very  easy 
to  you,  but  it  does  not  seem  very  easy  to  me. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Mr.  Rosenwald,  you  say  you  have  a mini- 
mum wage  for  married  men  of  $12  a week?  A.  So  I stated.  I stated  also 
that  under  certain  conditions  we  hired  nobody,  if  we  knew  he  was  a 
married  man,  under  $12  a week.  We  ask  him  if  he  is  a married  man;  if 
he  says  he  is  a married  man,  then  we  do  not  start  him  in  for  less  than 
$12  a week.  We  hire  no  man  for  any  position  that  pays  less  than  $12  a 
week,  if  he  is  a married  man.  If  he  lies  to  us,  we  may  hire  a man  who  is 
married  and  who  may  be  employed  at  a lower  wage  than  $12  a week; 
a boy  of  eighteen  or  nineteen  or  seventeen  may  be  married,  for  all  we 
know.  He  comes  in  and  we  ask  him  the  question  if  he  is  married,  and 
if  he  says  “No,”  we  may  hire  him,  but  to  the  best  of  our  ability  we  try 
to  find  out,  and  we  hire  no  married  man  at  a lower  salary  than  $12  a 
week. 

Q.  Then  $12  a week  is  fixed  by  your  corporation  as  a minimum  wage 
for  married  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I ask  you,  as  a statement  of  fact,  upon  what  that  $12-a-week 
minimum  is  based?  A.  That  is  based  on  what  we  consider  to  be  the 
minimum  wage  for  married  men. 

Q.  You  consider  that  a married  man  can  live  and  exist  upon  $12  a 
week?  A.  I think  that  is  fair  to  assume  that  that  is  our  opinion. 

Q.  I asked  you  earlier  in  your  examination  if  you  ever  had  conducted, 
had  caused  to  be  conducted,  or  had  ever  heard  of  anyone  conducting  an 
investigation  tending  to  show  the  lowest  amount  upon  which  a man  could 
support  a wife  and  family  comfortably,  and  your  answer  then  w-as  “No.” 
Is  your  answer  now  the  same?  A.  I don’t  quite  understand  you;  I don’t 
think  I gave  that  answ^er.  Will  the  reporter  kindly  read  the  answer  to  that 
question  at  the  time,  and  the  question,  too,  if  I may  ask  for  it. 

chairman  O’HARA:  The  reporter  will  go  back  and  read  the 
question  and  answer. 

(Reporter  reads  as  follows): 

“Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  an  investigation,  Mr.  Rosenwald, 
as  to  the  amount  of  money  upon  which  a man  can  support  a wife  and 
one  child? 

“A.  No,  sir. 

“Q.  Have  you  ever  heard  of  such  investigation  being  conducted 
by  anyone? 

“Q.  No,  sir. 

“Q.  Do  you  believe  that  such  an  investigation  could  be  conducted? 

“A.  I have  no  opinion  to  express.” 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  And  your  answer  to  that  is  the  same,  Mr. 
Rosenwald?  A.  I don’t  think  the  question  is  the  same. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  the  reporter  again  read  the  original 
questions  and  answers?  (Reporter  reads  as  instructed.)  Now,  Mr.  Rosen- 
wald, is  your  answer  now  the  same?  A.  The  question  is  not  the  sanie 
question  you  are  putting  into  the  testimony.  I don’t  think  this  question 
is  the  same. 

Q.  What  is  the  difference  in  the  question?  A.  ^ V eil,  it  is  entirely 
different  so  far  as  my  conception  of  it  goes;  I can’t  see  any  similarity 
between  them.  I didn’t  answer  “No”  to  the  question  which  you  asked  of 
the  same  nature,  or  as  the  record  would  show,  because  I didn’t  make  that 
answer.  That  question  was  not  asked. 

Q.  The  reporter  will  again  read  the  original  question  and  answer. 
(Last  question  and  answer  read  by  reporter.)  In  all  fairness,  if  you 


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desire  to  amend  your  answer  to  that  question,  having  answered  it  through 
a mistake,  you  may  now  do  so.  We  want  to  get  at  the  facts,  and  we  are 
glad  to  accord  you  the  opportunity  to  change  any  testimony  that  may  have 
been  given  in  error.  A If  it  is  a question  of  whether  we  ever  made  an 
investigation,  I said  “No.” 

Q.  Then,  upon  what  is  based  the  minimum  paid  married  men  of 
twelve  dollars  a week?  Upon  facts  as  found  out  during  investigations,  or 
from  an  opinion?  A.  I should  say  upon  judgment  without  an  investiga- 
tion, to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.  As  a matter  of  fact,  then,  Air.  Rosenwald,  that  twelve  dollars  a 
week  was  arrived  at  without  an  investigation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

EXAAIINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL: 


SENATOR  BEALL:  Air.  Rosenwald,  if  a man  is  working  at  nine  or 
ten  dollars  a week,  and  should  be  fortunate  enough  to  marry,  would  he 
get  his  wages  increased  to  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  I would  not  know 
I I’ow  that  would  work  out.  I don’t  know  whether  there  is  a provision  for 
that  or  not. 


Q.  I was  wondering  if  you  did  increase  them  to  twelve  dollars  a 
week.  A.  I don’t  know.  I believe  the  rule  is  that  he  is  to  be  advanced, 
but  I would  not  state  positively  on  that  fact;  I think  that  is  our  rule, 
that  he  is  to  be  advanced  to  twelve  dollars  a week  if  he  is  a married  man. 


Q.  You  think  that  is  the  rule?  A.  I think  so;  I would  not  say 
positively. 

Q.  Now,  Air.  Rosenwald,  you  and  I begun  at  the  foot  of  the  ladder 
and  worked  up  to  where  we  are  today.  You  know  what  you  used  to 
work  for,  and  I know  what  I used  to  work  for;  we  know  what  we  got; 
you  know  what  you  did  and  I know  what  I did  and  what  I got.  Now, 
'take  females,  or  the  young  men  and  young  women  throughout  the  country, 
"we  are  trying  by  every  possible  means  to  get  some  conclusions  as  regards 
the  relation  of  female  wages  to  the  male  wages,  and  vice  versa.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  we  are  trying  to  prepare  statistics  to  show  if  the  female,  for 
instance,  take  a thousand  clerks,  500  men  and  500  women,  we  are  trying 
to  show  if  the  female  clerks  sell  as  many  goods  as  the  men.  If  they  do 
sell  as  many  goods. as  the  men,  they  surely  ought  to  be  entitled  to  recogni- 
tion in  the  shape  of  a wage  equal  to  that  of  the  men,  had  they  not?  A.  I 
would  rather  not  answer  that,  Senator. 

I Q.  Let  us  ask  it,  not  for  an  opinion,  but  for  facts.  How  many  women 
.and  girls  are  employed  by  your  corporation  in  a selling  capacity?  A.  I 
jif  could  not  answer  that  question  because  I don’t  know.  We  have  very  few, 
if  any.  We  don’t  sell  goods  over  the  counter. 

Q.  It  is  all  mail  order?  A.  I say  we  don’t;  we  sell  a very  small 
amount;  a very,  very  infinitesimal  part  of  our  business  is  done  over  the 
counter.  It  is  only  just  an  occasional  customer.  Alost  all  of  them  write 
in  for  their  merchandise  and  send  their  orders  in  by  mail,  and  the  orders 
! are  filled  in  that  way. 

I Q.  And  the  wage  of  the  men  and  women  working  for  you  is  fixed  upon 
^ individual  ability,  that  is  true,  isn’t  it?  A.  I think  so. 


t,  EXAAIINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

;!  SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  think  it  is  fixed  so  much  on  individual 
’ ' ability  as  upon  the  question  of  supply  and  demand?  A.  I should  say 
''  largely  upon  the  ability  of  the  individual. 

Q.  If  a number  of  persons  without  having  the  same  ability  were 
1 wanting  jobs,  wouldn’t  that  bring  down  the  wages?  A.  It  would  not  in 
! our  case;  I don’t  know  how  it  would  apply  generally;  it  would  not  in  our 
Lease,  because  we  have  fixed  rates  for  beginning  at  certain  work,  and 
Lability  is  recognized  as  it  develops. 

j Q.  Yes,  I understand  that;  but  about  competition?  A.  No,  we  have 
' ! no  competition.  Competition  would  not  regulate  that  a particle,  because 
! we  have  a regular  fixed  starting  wage  for  different  classes  of  work. 


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Q.  Then  the  question  of  supply  and  demand  would  not  enter  into  that 
employment?  A.  No,  sir. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  question  of  wag-es  is  fixed  upon  the 
ability  of  the  individual?  A.  I should  say  so. 

Q.  How  do  you  reach  an  expression,  a financial  expression  in  wages, 
of  the  ability  of  the  individual?  A.  I suppose  it  is  reached  in  various 
ways. 

Q.  What  is  the  system  used  by  your  corporation?  A.  If  the  people 
show  an  unusual  amount  of  ability  they  may  be  transferred  from  one 
department  to  another,  and  in  that  way  have  their  salaries  increased  by 
doing  work  which  is  of  a more  valuable  nature. 

Q.  There  are  departments  where  salaries  are  higher  than  they  are  in 
other  departments?  A.  Oh,  certainly. 

Q.  Why  are  they  higher  in  those  departments  than  in  others?  A. 
The  nature  of  the  work  requires  a higher  class  of  ability;  a higher  class 
of  intelligence  also  in  a great  many  cases. 

Q.  Does  that  higher  class  of  intelligence  and  abilitj'  mean  that  their 
work — the  work  done  by  the  individuals — results  in  more  dollars  and  cents 
■to  you,  the  employer?  A.  I would  say  that  would  be  fair  to  assume. 
We  don’t  figure  it  out  on  that  basis,  but  I suppose  that  would  be  fair  to 
assume. 

Q.  How  do  you  apportion,  or  divide,  the  money  necessary  for  the 
conduct  of  your  business  in  the  employment  of  hire?  A.  It  is  done  by 
the  department.  It  is  not  apportioned  at  all;  each  department  uses  what- 
ever amount  is  necessary  for  its  needs,  depending  upon  the  volume  of  their 
business  at  the  time. 

Q.  Does  each  department  head  come  to  you  with  an  estimate  of  the 
amount  of  money  to  be  expended  in  his  department?  A.  No,  sir;  I don’t 
have  anything  to  do  with  it  at  all;  it  is  conducted  through  a department: 
each  man  has  control  of  his  own  department. 

Q.  May  each  department  head  spend  as  much  money  as  he_  desires  in 
his  department  without  any  supervision?  A.  He  can  requisition  for 
whatever  help  he  needs  in  that  department  upon  the  employment  depart- 
ment and  state  what  the  nature  of  the  work  is  that  he  wants  help  for. 

Q.  He  is  given  whatever  help  is  necessary';  in  other  words,  he  is  the 
judge  of  how  much  help  wdll  be  required  for  the  work  that  his  depart- 
ment is  doing?  A.  Certainly. 

Q.  At  regularly  stated  periods,  I presume  j'ou  have  statements  made 
by  the  department  managers  of  the  cost  to  the  corporation  of  running 
their  respective  departments?  A.  That  is  done  through  our  auditing 
department  every  day;  the  expenses  of  everj^  department  is  known  every 
day. 

Q.  Now,  is  the  expenditure  for  help  in  a department  regulated  by 
the  profit  made  by  that  department?  A.  No.  Me  have  certain  depart- 
ments that  lose  money  right  along,  so  that  if  it  was  regulated  by  that, 
some  people  would  have  to  pay  us  for  working  there. 

Q.  What  departments,  as  a matter  of  fact,  do  lose  money?  A.  Me 
have  certain  departments  that  are  unprofitable. 

Q.  Selling  departments?  A.  M-Tll,  merchandise  departments,  cer- 
tain kinds  of  merchandise  that  is  not  profitable  to  handle,  but  must  be 
handled  on  account  of  other  things  that  we  handle;  whole  departments, 
yes,  we  have  whole  departments  that  lose  money  ever}'  year,  a good  many 
thousand  dollars. 

Q.  In  replying  to  a question  of  Senator  Tossey,  you  stated  that  the 
law  of  supplv  and  demand  did  not  regulate  wages  in  your  business?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  But  the  question  of  ability  does  _ regulate,  the  ability  of  the  in- 
dividual does  regulate  the  wage  paid  the  individual  in  your  business?  A. 
Yes,  I said  that. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


731 


Q.  That  being  so,  do  you  at  the  end  of  every  year  take  the  profit 
made  by  your  corporation  and  decide  whether  the  employe  has  received 
up  to  his  ability,  his  full  pay?  A.  We  don’t  wait  until  the  end  of  the 
year.  We  do  that  every  day  in  the  year  in  the  different  departments,  de- 
pending upon  ability.  If  people  don’t  show  ability  we  start  them  at  a 
certain  wage;  if  they  show  ability  enough  to  hold  their  position,  they 
are  inevitably  raised  until  they  reach  a certain  wage;  we  don’t  keep  anybody 
!in  our  employ  that  starts  out  at  five  or  six  or  seven  dollars  a week,  or 
eight  dollars  a week,  for  any  length  of  time  at  that  rate;  after  he  has 
been  there  say  for  sixty  days,  if  he  shows  sufficient  ability,  he  gets  an  in- 
crease in  his  salary,  and  that  continues  up  to  a certain  point. 

Q.  You  say  up  to  a certain  point;  that  point  is  fixed  by  what — by 
'ability  or  by  your  judgment?  A.  By  both;  by  our  judgment  and  by  the 
ability  of  the  employe. 

^ Q.  In  other  words,  you  fix  the  price  that  you  consider  his  ability  is 

H worth?  How  do  you  fix  that  price?  A.  Somebody  has  to,  and  the  man 

jithat  he  is  working  for  is  the  man  to  do  it.  I tried  to  state  to  you  that  we 
judge  as  to  the  value  of  the  work  done  by  that  person. 

Q.  In  forming  an  opinion  as  to  the  value  of  that  work,  you  don’t 
take  into  consideration  the  law  of  supply  and  demand?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  do  you  take  into  consideration  the  profit  they  are  actually 
making  for  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

|,  Q.  Then  what  law  do  you  take  into  consideration?  A.  I tried  to 
' [make  myself  very  plain.  I think  I answered  the  question  two  or  three 
dor  four  times,  that  it  is  the  ability  of  the  individual  that  is  in  question, 

-and  the  value  of  the  work  in  which  he  is  engaged.  Now,  if  we  find  that 

the  individual  is  fitted  for  work  in  the  higher  departments,  then  when  he 
fitted  for  that  we  try  to  find  a place  for  him  in  another  department  and 
try  to  give  him  a vacancy  in  a department  where  greater  ability  is  desired 
or  necessary. 

f Q.  All  right,  that  takes  cares  of  the  individual,  Mr.  Rosenwald;  but 
"who  fixes,  and  in  what  manner,  the  w'ages  to  be  paid  in  these  various 
positions?  Is  that  fixed  by  the  profit  made  by  the  business,  or  exclusively 
upon  your  judgment?  A.  That  depends  upon  the  ability  they  pos'sess. 
_We  start  them  out  at  a certain  wage  and  let  them  go  up  in  that  depart- 
/'  ment;  if  they  have  an  ability  to  go  up  and  increase,  we  increase  their  wages 
' i [regardless  of  whether  we  profit  or  whether  we  don’t  profit.  The  profit  in 
ijthat  particular  department  would  not  affect  the  wage  of  that  person  w’orking 
in  that  depatment  if  they  had  the  ability. 

Q.  Do  you  wish  the  Committee  to  understand  that  you  pay  all  of  the 
* people  working  for  you  as  much  money  as  you  can  afford  to  pay  them? 
jA.  I didn’t  say  that.  I didn’t  say  that,  sir.  I have  intimated  nothing  of 
[that  kind.  If  ten  thousand  people  were  out,  of  employment  today  and 
^wanted  work  in  our  store  it  would  not  change  the  attitude  of  our  employ- 
ment one  iota  as  to  the  starting  wage  the}'  would  pay,  or  the  increase  of 
wages  that  they  would  receive  for  their  ability  beyond  what  w'e  would 
I expect  it  to  be  if  they  got  an  increase  in  their  wages,  or  if  they  remained 
i ; at  all. 

I'  Q.  Have  you  a minimum  wage  now  for  women  of  eight  dollars?  A. 
i No,  sir;  we  haven’t. 

!Q.  The  only  minimum  wage  you  have,  then,  is  for  married  men?  A. 
No,  we  have  a minimum  wage  for  women  and  we  have  a minimum  wage 
for  boys,  and  we  have  a minimum  wage  for  men,  and  we  have  a minimum 
^ wage  for  married  men. 

[ ' Q.  For  married  men,  you  place  twelve  dollars  a week  as  the  minimum? 
I ' A.  Yes,  sir. 

! Q.  And  your  women,  your  adult  women,  what  is  the  minimum  wage 
1 for  them?  A.  Adult  women,  I think  it  is  eight  dollars  for  adult  women. 

, I _ Q.  What  is  the  minimum  wage  for  single  men?  A.  For  single  men, 
; if  he  is  21,  that  is  twelve  dollars. 

I “ Q.  For  a single  man?  A.  Yes. 

I I Q.  Then  your  minimum  wage  for  married  men  is  twelve  dollars  a 
(.  week,  and  for  a single  man  it  is  twelve  dollars  a week,  and  for  a single 


732  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


adult  woman  is  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  The  woman  is  an  adult  at  18, 
and  a man  is  an  adult  at  21. 

Q.  You  make  no  real  distinction  in  the  minimum  paid  a single  man 
over  21  and  that  paid  to  a married  man?  A.  A married  man  may  be  only 
20  or  19,  and  he  would  still  get  twelve  dollars  a week,  if  he  was  hired. 

Q.  Then  the  only  difference  is  one  of  age?  A.  I said  so. 

Mr.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr.’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  T.  PIRIE,  JR.,  called  as  a wdtness  before  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  T.  Pirie,  Jr. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Vice-president  of  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & 
Company. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  in  your  emploj'?  A.  The  total  number  of 
men  is  1,207;  that  is,  in  our  retail  store.  Q.  What  is  the  average  wage? 
A.  The  average  wage  is  $18.38. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  lowest  wage?  A.  The  lowest  wage  is  $10. 

Q.  Is  that  $10  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  or  boy  in  your 
employ?  A.  We  start  on  twenty-one  years  of  age;  w'e  pay  some  boys 
less  than  $10. 

Q.  No  man  over  twenty-one  years  of  age  is  receiving  less  than  $10 
a week?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  boys  under  twenty-one  years  of  age  are  emplo3'ed. 
A.  Now,  I haven’t  it  between  sixteen  and  eighteen,  but  I can  give  it  to 
you  between  fourteen  and  sixteen;  I can  get  that  for  you. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  think  there  are?  A.  There  are,  oh,  I suppose, 
a couple  of  hundred. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  them?  A.  The  lowest 
wage  paid  to  any  of  them  is  to  errand  boys — $4. 

Q.  Four  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  and  we  have  eight  of  them. 

Q.  All  little  boys?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  over  twentj'-one  j^ears  of 
age  is  $10  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  you  paj-  to  any  married  man?  A.  Twelve 
dolars;  that  is,  we  don’t  hire  any  married  men  at  less  than  $12,  but  there 
might  be  a few  instances  of  them  getting  married,  but  I don’t  think  there 
are  many;  but  we  have  no  married  men,  if  we  know  it,  at  less  than  $12. 

Q.  How  do  you  reach  that  figure  of  $12  a week  as  a minimum  wage 
for  married  men?  A.  Well,  we  have  gone  into  it  very  scientifically  in  this 
case.  Our  superintendents  have  questioned  a great  many  of  the  people 
as  to  their  expenses  of  living,  and  we  have  tried  to  tabulate  it  from  that; 
it  is  covering  the  conditions  in  Chicago,  and  we  thought  from  those  con- 
clusions that  we  reached,  that  the  minimum  for  married  men  should  be  $12. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  a man  can  support  a wife  and  saj^  one  child, 
and  himself,  on  $12  a week?  A.  We  thought  so  if  it  is  a 3-oung  child— 
not  a grown  child. 

Q.  Can  you  give  this  Committee  a statement  showing  how  a married 
man  in  the  city  of  Chicago  can  support  himself  and  a wife  on  $12  a week, 
itemized?  A.  I haven’t  it  with  me;  I am  perfectly  willing  to  give  3-ou 
the  information  we  have;  I will  get  it  for  you.  It  is  some  time  since  we 
took  that. 

Q.  How  many  men  have  you  at  $10  a week?  A.  I am  sorry  I 
haven’t  tabulated  it  that  way  for  you;  I have  divided  it  into  salesmen  and 
general  employes. 

Q.  Will  you  read  the  statement  as  3'ou  have  it?  A.  Work  rooms, 
buyers,  and  so  forth,  salesmen,  we  have  429;  this  is  the  retail  store; 
married  men  219,  and  single  men  210,  ranging  from  $10  to  $60  a week- 
average,  $18.97.  Do  you  want  the  other? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  The  general  emplo3-es,  610;  married  men,  268;  single, 
342;  salaries  ranging  from  $10  to  $60  a week;  average,  $15.36.  \ ou  don  t 

want  our  buyers,  do  you? 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


733 


Q.  It  shows  the  range  of  wages?  A.  We  have  twenty-one  buyers; 
wenty  of  them  married  and  one  single;  the  average  is  $87.22  a week.  In 
he  work  rooms  here  we  have  142;  eighty-four  married  and  fifty-eight 
jingle;  average  wage,  $17.37  a week.  Then  here  is  some  that  get  higher 
Images  than  that. 

Q.  Most  of  the  men  in  your  employ  seem  to  be  married;  that  is  true? 
Yes. 

Q.  In  the  class  of  salesmen,  Mr.  Pirie,  the  average  is  $18.97  a week? 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  range  is  from  $10  a week  to  $60  a week.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  most  numerous  figure,  about  $12  a week?  A.  Oh,  I 
hink  it  is  more  than  that. 

Q.  That  is,  if  you  were  to  classify,  in  which  class  would  be  the  greatest 
lumber  of  the  men?  A.  I think  they  would  be  between  $20  and  $30  a 
veek. 

Q.  But  your  average  is  $18.97  here.  You  make  the  statement  that  so 
nany  men  are  getting  $10  a week  and  so  many  $11  and  so  many  men  $12 
i'.nd  so  many  men  $13,  and  on  up?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Which  one  of  those  figures  is  the  popular  figure,  so-called,  at 
vhich  the  greatest  number  are  working?  A.  About  $20. 

Q.  Then,  in  this  classification  of  salesmen,  what  is  the  average  period 
)f  service  of  the  men  in  that  class?  A.  I could  only  give  you  that  from 
nemory.  Some  remain  a great  length  of  time  and  some  only  a short 
ime.  I would  rather  get  more  information  before  I answer  that  question. 
I Q.  Let  us  get  some  specific  case.  A.  Yes. 

1 Q.  Have  you  any  men  who  have  been  in  your  employ  for  twenty 
rears?  A.  Oh,  many;  yes. 

i Q.  Any  longer  than  twenty  years?  A.  Some  longer. 

I Q.  What  is  the  longest  period  of  service?  A.  I think  forty-seven 
i-ears. 

’ Q.  Have  you  any  man  who  has  been  in  your  employ  over  twenty 
'ears  who  is  now  a salesman  and  who  is  getting  less  than  $20  a week? 
;V.  No,  sir. 


Q.  You  haven’t  one?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  men  in  your  employ  as  salesmen  who  have  been 
|vorking  over  ten  years,  and  are  now  getting  less  than  $20  a week? 
iV.  There  might  be  one  or  two,  but  it  would  be  very  exceptional. 

* Q.  There  would  not  be  many  of  them?  A.  Very  few  of  those  depart- 
pent  managers  started  at  less  than  $5  a week. 

Q.  We  are  not  trying  especially  to  do  anything  for  the  department 
managers,  Mr.  Pirie.  A.  I wanted  to  show  you  how  those  $5  and  $6  and 
10  a week  people  can  be  promoted. 

i Q.  Do  you  think  their  promotion  helps  the  other  fellow  who  remains 
jown  there  and  who  is  not  promoted?  A.  That  is  up  to  him. 
j Q.  Outside  of  the  classification  of  salesmen,  in  any  of  the  other 
lepartments  have  you  any  other  man  who  has  been  in  your  employ  in  any 
lapacity  for  a period  of  years  in  excess  of  twenty,  who  is  now  receiving 
5ss  than  $20  a week?  A.  Well,  I think  not;  I didn’t  examine  the  records 
!dth  that  end  in  view.  I cannot  answer  you  positively,  but  I think  not. 
f there  are  any,  there  are  only  one  or  two. 

• SENATOR  BEALL:  Well,  Mr.  Pirie,  I want  to  ask  my  same  old 
uestion  of  you;  we  are  trying  to  prepare  statistics  now,  between  the 
^ages  of  women  and  the  wages  of  men  based  on  the  ability  of  each.  Now 
ou  have  been  around  and  been  in  business  a long  time,  and  you  get 
:round  the  store  and  you  know  which  are  your  good  salesladies  and  which 
re  your  good  salesmen;  in  your  opinion,  how  do  you  think  they  compare, 
re  women  and  the  men,  as  salesmen  or  salesladies?  I know  you  might 
ay  that  one  is  selling  fine  dresses  and  such  things  and  they  get  the  most, 
ut  there  is  somebody  selling  jewelry.  Take  it  on  the  average,  all  the  way 
irough,  how  do  your  clerks  compare,  the  male  and  the  female,  as  to 
[bility  to  sell?  A.  The  ability  is  about  the  same.  Do  you  want  to  know 


734 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


about  what  I think  they  ought  to  earn?  I think  they  ought  to  get  the 
same  where  the  abilitj'-  is  the  same;  they  ought  to  get  the  same. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Could  you  prepare  a table  for  us  of  sales  by 
the  ladies  and  sales  by  the  men: 

MR.  PIRIE:  Yes,  I shall  be  glad  to.  I think  that  where  ability  and 
service  rendered  is  about  the  same,  that  they  ought  to  get  just  about  the 
same,  and  they  do. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  That  is  about  what  the  balance  of  the  testimony 
is,  except  this  one  fellow,  who  wouldn’t  answer  anything.  I wanted  just 
a matter  of  opinion,  but  if  you  could  prepare  a table  of  that  kind,  we  would 
like  to  have  it.  It  don’t  matter  if  it  is  done  in  ten  days  or  a week,  or  any 
time  this  month;  when  you  get  time  to  do  it,  let  us  get  it. 

MR.  PIRIE:  I will  try  and  get  it  out  for  you. 

. SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  think  the  question  of  supply  and 
demand  controls  in  hiring  people? 

MR.  PIRIE:  Yes. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  heard  Mr.  Rosenwald  testify  wLen  he  said 
that  they  didn’t  take  that  into  consideration  in  his  store? 

MR.  PIRIE:  Yes. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  How  long  is  it  since  you  made  an  investi- 
gation and  reached  the  conclusion  that  $12  a week  w'as  about  right 
as  a minimum  for  married  men?  A.  .1  think  it  is  about  a y'ear  and  a 
half;  I am  not  quite  positive. 

Q.  There  was  an  investigation  made  a year  and  a half  ago?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  In  your  store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  your  store  individually,  or  in  connection  with  other  stores? 
A.  Our  store  individually. 

Q.  I wish  5^011  would  furnish  us  with  that.  A.  I will  try-  to  get 
it  for  you. 

Mr.  John  J.  Mitchell’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  J.  MITCHELL,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  J.  Mitchell. 

Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  I am  president  of  the 
Illinois  Trust  & Savings  Bank. 

Q.  How  many-  men  are  y-ou  employ-ing  in  that  bank?  .-K.  Two 
hundred  and  seventeen;  I say  217;  201;  there  are  217  employed  in  it,  and 
201  are  men. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  w-age  paid?  A.  Now,  if  you  will  let  me 
answer  with  this  memorandum  which  I had  made  hurriedly-  this  morning: 
I didn’t  understand  just  what  you  wanted  in  this  investigation,  or  what 
nature  this  investigation  was  going  to  take,  and  I did  not  prepare  myself 
with  anything.  I came  in  this  morning,  and  as  I came  in  I saw  that  you 
were  going  to  inquire  about  salaries  paid,  so  just  as  I got  here,  they  gave 
me  this  memorandum.  This  shows  that  fifteen  messengers  average  $42  a 
month.  Bookkeepers,  they-  have  not  given  the  number  of  bookkeepers, 
but  the  bookkeepers  have  reached  $90  a month;  sixteen  women  averaging 
$80  a month;  ten  policemen  averaging  $81  a month;  180  clerks,  and  that 
includes  the  bookkeepers,  $120  a month  average. 

Q.  Wave  y-ou  any-  other  figures  on  y-our  statement  there.  ]Mr.  Mitchell: 
A.  No,  sir;  those  are  all  the  figures  that  were  furnished  rne,  and  that  very 
hurriedly,  as  I came  in  from  the  country-  and  just  had  time  to  .get  down 
here. 

Q.  Have  you  any  rule  at  your  bank  regarding  the  minimum  wage 
paid  to  married  men?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


735 


Q.  You  heard  Mr.  Forgan  tell  of  some  rule  in  effect  at  his  bank? 
A.  I don’t  think  we  have  any  such  rule  as  that.  I think  a question  some- 
times has  arisen  where  a young  fellow  who  was  only  getting  possibly 
fifty  dollars  a month,  a young  messenger  boy,  got  married,  and  we 
promptly  gave  hiiu  his  dismissal  for  the  reason  that  we  did  not  think  he 
could  support  a wife  on  that. 

Q.  You  dismissed  him  because  your  best  judgment  was  that  he  could 
not  support  a wife  on  $50  a month?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  it,  absolutely. 

Q.  That  left  the  bank  open  to  danger?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that  danger,  in  your  opinion?  A.  That 
his  expenses  would  exceed  his  income,  and  the  demands  on  his  income 
might  get  away  with  his  judgment  if  it  didn’t  with  his  integrity,  and  we 
could  not  afford  to  have  a man  with  us  that  we  knew  was  living  beyond 
his  salary. 

y.  That  is  the  position  generally  taken  by  banks,  is  it  not,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  That  is  based  upon  a good,  sound  business  judgment?  A.  I 
think  so;  an  employe  that  is  getting  $8,000  a year,  if  we  find  that  he  is 
not  paying  his  bills  and  that  he  is  running  in  debt,  we  dismiss  him  in  the 
same  way.  A man  who  is  extravagant  in  his  expenses  and  has  not  got 
the  money  to  spend  regularly  is  liable  to  get  into  trouble. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Mitchell,  it  is  the  policy  of  your  bank  not  to  employ  a 
man  who  is  receiving  fifty  dollars  a month  and  who  marries;  do  yoU 
think  it  is  good  business  judgment  for  any  man  to  pay  to  another  man 
who  is  married  less  than  fifty  dollars  a month?  A.  Well,  I would  answer 
that  simply  by  saying  that  1 employ  a good  many  men  personally  outside 
of  the  bank  and  I don’t  pay  any  of  them  less  than  fifty  dollars  a month, 
but  that  is  not  as  a business  proposition;  competition  in  business  is  such 
that  they  may  be  obliged  to  pay  less  than  that. 

Q.  Has  your  bank  lost  any  considerable  amount  from  the  thefts  of 
employes?  A.  No,  sir;  we  don’t  in  our  bank;  we  are  the  only  bank  in 
this  city  that  does  not  require  bonds  from  our  employes;  and  with  one 
exception,  which  was  a four  thousand  dollar  defalcation,  where  a young 
fellow  went  in  to  help  the  teller  and  put  his  hand  right  into  the  money 
drawer  and  took  four  thousand  dollars;  he  was  arrested,  was  convicted  and 
sent  to  the  penitentiary  for  six  years;  that  is,  with  that  exception,  we  have 
never  had  a defalcation,  and  that  man  was  getting  something  like  fourteen 
or  sixteen  hundred  dollars  a year;  that  is  the  only  instance  to  my  knowledge 
that  we  have  ever  had,  but  we  have  to  keep  watching  them  all  the  time,  to 
. keep  changing  them  all  the  time,  and  it  is  by  eternal  vigilance  that  we 
probably  don’t  have  any. 

I Q.  Have  you  any  idea,  Mr.  Mitchell,  of  how  much  money  it  would 
• cost  a man  to  support  a wife  and  child — say  a girl  of  15  or  16  years  of 
I age — here  in  Chicago?  A.  Well,  that  depends  a good  deal  upon  the  mother 
and  father.  You  take  a German,  who  is  thrifty,  and  he  will  get  along  on 
a small  amount.  You  take  the  average  American  and  he  has  got  to  have 
a good  deal  more.  His  ideas  as  regards  economizing  are  very  different 
from  those  of  the  German.  Now,  in  the  little  towns— I live  in  the  country 
six  months  in  the  year  and  I have  a number  of  employes  and  have  paid 
them  for  years  at  fifty  dollars  a month;  they  come  in  the  morning  and 
i go  at  night.  They  have  raised  families,  some  of  them  have  five  or  six 
boys  and  girls;  they  are  respectable  and  they  send  them  to  school.  They 
! are  intelligent  and  have  good  sense;  they  are  good  people  and  they  go 
out  and  hustle  for  themselves.  Now,  all  that  is  done  on  fifty  dollars  a 
■ month.  Now,  that  same  class  of  people  in  the  city,  they  want  amusements 
I that  they  don’t  have  in  the  country.  The  opportunities  for  the  spending 
: of  money  in  a large  city  are  much  greater  than  in  a village.  A greabmany 
‘ of  those  people  would  be  a great  deal  better  off  if  they  went  to  the  country 
. instead  of  staying  in  town,  but  you  can’t  get  them  to  go;  but  the  other 
people  live  comfortably  and  creditably  upon  fifty  dollars  a month  in  the 
little  towns. 

Q.  In  Chicago,  how  do  you  find  it  from  your  observation?  A.  Well, 
there  are  lots  of  very  respectable  men  and  women  that  are  not  getting 
more  than  that,  that  are  comparatively  respectable,  and  they  are  sending 


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their  children  to  school.  1 have  a number  of  instances  that  I know  of 
where  janitors  are  getting  fifty  dollars  a month  and  they  are  taking  care 
of  their  families;  they  are  sending  their  girls  to  the  public  school,  and 
they  seem  to  be  thoroughly  respectable. 

Q.  In  those  cases  they  get  their  rent  free,  do  they  not?  A.  In  some 
instances,  yes;  in  others,  no.  I have  two  men  in  mind  that  have  their 
own  little  place  and  they  are  getting  fifty  dollars  a month,  and  they  have 
saved  money  from  the  very  start  in  connection  with  it.  They  are  thrifty 
Swedes,  both  of  them. 

Q.  Have  they  children?  A.  They  have  children,  one  of  them  having 
three  and  the  other  has  two. 

Q.  Are  some  of  the  children  grown?  A.  They  are  now  up,  I think 
the  boy  in  one  instance  is  a young  man  of  23  or  24;  I think  he  is  employed 
by  one  of  the  railroads  at  the  present  time;  they  are  self-supporting 
children,  but  they  have  been  able  to  raise  that  family  up  to  a point  where 
they  could  support  themselves. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  the  average  father,  having  a wife  and  a 
daughter  of  15  or  16  years  of  age,  and  receiving  at  the  most  a salary  or 
wage  of  fifty  dollars  a month,  would  be  forced  to  send  the  girl  out  into 
the  business  world?  A.  I would  say  that  that  compensation  would  require 
that  the  girl  or  boy  would  have  to  assist  the  family  as  soon  as  they  were 
able  to  do  so. 

Q.  And  in  the  business  world  would  that  girl  come  in  competition 
with  men,  or  with  man  labor?  A.  Well,  comparatively  they  never  have; 
they  never  have  been  paid  the  wages  of  men;  I don’t  know  of  any  place 
where  they  do.  I think  theoretically  that  they  should  be,  but  practically 
they  never  have  been. 

Q.  When  these  girls  go  out  and  are  paid  less  than  the  men  are 
being  paid,  do  they  not  in  a sense  affect  the  wages  paid  to  men  inasmuch 
as  it  is  in  the  line  of  competition?  A.  I would  think  that  that  might 
fairly  be  inferred;  the  fact  that  they  could  get  girls  to  do  work  that  they 
otherwise  would  have  to  get  men  to  do,  at  less  wages,  would  probably  keep 
it  down. 

Q.  These  girls  would  be  forced  out  into  the  world  through  an  in- 
sufficiency of  wage  paid  the  parent,  so  that  it  becomes,  by  that  line  of 
reasoning,  a sort  of  a circle?  A.  Well,  even  if  j'ou  paid  that  parent  a 
substantial  amount  in  advance,  still,  that  girl  or  boy  would  be  forced  to 
come  out.  I don’t  believe  if  they  were  paid  instead  of  fifty  dollars,  if  they 
were  paid  seventy-five  dollars  a month,  if  a man  had  two  or  three  children, 
that  those  children  would  not  be  forced  to  go  out  and  seek  emploj-ment. 

Q.  What  suggestion,  if  any,  have  you  to  make,  Hr.  Mitchell,  to  this 
Committee?  A.  I have  no  recommendations  to  make,  gentlemen,  in  con- 
nection with  it.  I have  been  away  all  winter  and  I haven’t  given  much 
thought  to  the  situation.  It  is  a very  important  question  and  one  that 
affects  a great  many  business  interests,  and  of  course  a great  many  men 
and  women  and  should-  be  given  a very  great  deal  of  careful,  thoughtful 
attention.  I don’t  know  whether  it  would  not  be  wise  to  have  it  done 
through  some  scientific  commission,  as  I would  suggest  to  my  Democratic 
friends  on  the  tariff  question,  to  have  some  certain  conditions  followed 
out;  to  have  the  question  studied  by  men  who  were  adequately  posted 
and  understood  the  situation  and  let  them  accomplish  it  and  follow  it  up. 
This  suggestion  is,  of  course,  without  any  reflection  upon  my  political 
friends  here,  but  it  always  has  seemed  unfair,  to  be  frank  about  it.  that 
women  were  doing  the  work  of  men  and  were  not  receiving  the  compensa- 
tion that  the  men  are.  But  it  never  has  been  so  the  world  over;  women 
don’t  get  paid  as  the  men  do.  I suppose  there  are  some  physical  defects 
with  the  woman,  possibly,  that  might  cause  that;  you  can't  really  depend 
upon  them  for  especial  efforts  and  extra  time  like  j-ou  can  many  times 
require  of  a man.  In  other  words,  a man  is  on  deck  all  the  time  and 
through  physical  conditions  a woman  cannot  possibly  be,  and  that  makes 
a little  difference  in  ■^act. 

Q.  Do  you  thiuK  it  quite  fair  that  any  woman  should  work  for  less 
money  than  she  can  live  on?  A.  No,  I think  that  that  is  a very  un- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


737 


fortunate  situation  that  they  are  apparently  obliged  to  do  with;  I will 
admit  that  freely. 

Q.  How  should  we  remedy  that,  in  your  judgment?  A.  I don’t  know 
whether  the  law  can  do  that  or  not.  Of  course,  the  matter  of  supply  and 
demand  is  regulating  that  at  the  present  time;  if  they  could  not  get  plenty 
of  girls  at  six  or  eight  dollars  a week,  they  would  have  to  pay  more  for 
them.  Now,  whether  it  is  proper  for  the  State  to  come  in  and  say  what 
minimum  should  be  paid,  I am  not  prepared  to  say.  I think  that  any 
increase  in  wages  would  come  out  of  the  purchaser,  finally;  I think  that 
prices  would  be  raised  all  along  the  line.  They  are  in  competition  with 
: outside  lines  of  business,  and  there  are  wages  beyond  which  they  could 
not  go  and  meet  the  others  in  competition,  and  that  would  have  to  be 
1 considered.  But  so  far  as  the  department  stores  are  concerned,  they  have 
a remedy  within  themselves;  if  they  have  to  pay  more,  why  they  just 
■ put  it  onto  the  laces  and  silk  and  buttons  and  things  of  that  kind. 

Q.  They  would  do  that  rather  than  take  it  out  of  the  profits?  A.  I 
rather  think  that  that  is  where  it  would  come,  gentlemen,  in  all  fairness; 
I don’t  think  it  would  reduce  the  cost  of  living  a bit. 

Q.  You  believe,  Mr.  Mitchell,  that  a minimum  wage  law  should  be 
icnacted  in  connection  with  a maximum  profit  law?  A.  Well,  that  may 
be  the  next  suggestion;  I am  prepared  for  it. 

I EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

® SENATOR  BEALL:  Things  have  changed  since  you  and  I were 
boys  in  Alton.  A.  Yes,  no  question  about  that. 

Q.  Especially  as  to  the  difference  in  wages?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  is  considerable  difference  between  when  I was  married 
forty-six  years  ago  and  the  present  time.  A.  I got  five  dollars  a week 
'when  I started  in. 

j Q.  And  I started  in  at  two  and  a half.  A.  Oh,  I beat  you. 

Q.  Your  father  and  brother  were  better  fixed  than  mine.  But  you 
^brought  out  a while  ago  that  you  did  not  bond  your  men  in  your  bank. 
1 [A.  No,  sir. 

^ Q.  I had  heard  this  before,  and  it  is  a very  good  thing,  but  what  is 
llyour  reason  for  that?  A.  We  thought  there  was  just  some  little  humilia- 
y'tion  to  say  to  a man  that  you  believe  that  he  was  honest,  but  that  you 
^>’|were  not  going  to  take  any  chances  on  him  and  that  you  were  going  to 
i.bond  him.  I think  there  is  more  loyalty  to  the  bank  with  the  knowledge 
pthat  they  are  put  upon  their  honor,  rather  than  under  a bond;  that  there 
would  be  a better  feeling  and  we  would  get  better  services  from  our  men, 
||iand  we  have  found  that  so,  and  we  have  started  out  with  that  principle 
j trusting  our  men,  and  at  the  same  time  making  shifts  and  changes  so 
I 'that  the  opportunity  for  slipping  could  not  be  offered,  and  it  is  working 
j!so  satisfactorily  that  we  have  always  followed  it. 

f i Q.  How  long  has  this  been  going  on,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  That  has 
i Teen  going  on  for  forty  years. 

I Q.  How  many  females  do  you  have  in  your  bank?  A.  Sixteen. 

I Q.  Do  you  corrSider  them  as  efficient  as  you  do  the  men,  in  doing 
I their  respective  tasks?  A.  Yes,  and  in  some  instances  much  better. 
% When  it  comes  to  a stenographer  in  a bank,  the  average  girl  stenographer, 
I .:in  my  judgment,  is  equal  to  any  man,  and  they  get  in  with  us  at  the  same 
.’i,;  salary  that  we  pay  the  men. 

j Q.  That  is  a question  that  I have  asked  all  of  these  retail  store  men, 
j jjand  these  men,  all  except  one,  have  answered  us,  and  he  won’t  give  us 

Ian  answer,  and  they  have  all  said  the  same  thing,  that  they  thought  the 

Vi  girls  were  sometimes  as  good  or  better.  A.  Yes. 

j ■;  Q.  Now,  Mr.  Mitchell,  have  you  any  further  suggestions  that  you 
1 can  give  us;  you  know  what  we  are  trying  to  do  and  what  we  are  here 

i for;  we  are  trying  to  look  after  the  girls  and  we  are  trying  to  find  out 

' why  a girl  with  equal  ability  with  a boy  or  man  should  not  receive  the 
; same  salary  as  the  boy  or  man.  A.  Well,  I think  that  is  largely  a question 
; of  the  situation  of  supply  and  demand  There  are  so  many  girls  that  can 


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onl}^  do  certain  lines  of  work,  that  do  it  and  are  in  such  abundance  that 
they  will  keep  the  cost  of  that  labor  down.  I think  it  is  simply  a question 
of  cost,  of  supply  and  demand.  If  girls  were  not  to  be  had,  they  would  pay 
more  for  them;  that  has  always  been  the  case,  but  1 don’t  know  whether 
it  always  will  be  or  not.  It  is  so  in  Europe,  and  it  is  so  everywhere  else.  ) 

Q.  I was  in  Europe.  I was  over  there  last  year  for  four  months,  and  ! 
I can’t  compare  labor  conditions  in  this  country  with  rvhat  I saw  there.  > 
A.  I hope  not,  because  the  w'omen  there  do  most  of  the  work. 

Q.  I was  there  and  I saw  women  working  in  the  fields,  some  with  , 
babies  on  their  backs,  working  for  twenty-five  cents  a day.  A.  I think,  ■ 
as  a rule,  that  employers  of  labor  in  this  country  are  gratified  to  feel  that 
they  are  able  to  pay  wages  that  they  are  able  to  pay  their  help  today, 
rather  than  the  wages  that  are  paid  in  the  old  country,  and  I think  that 
everybody  would  rather  pay  more  for  what  they  are  getting  today  than 
to  have  labor  reduced,  if  it  was  a question  of  one  or  the  other,  but  at  the 
same  time  there  has  got  to  be  consistency  in  the  situation. 

Whereupon,  upon  motion  of  Senator  Beall,  an  adjournment  was 
taken  until  2 o’clock  P.  M.  of  the  same  day. 


SESSION  XXVII 


; Illinois  Steel  Company  official  questioned  concerning  his 

I knowledge  of  moral  conditions  in  Gary;  also  gives  information  as 
to  wages  paid  in  steel  mills;  gives  $1.95  as  minimum  day  wage  of 
married  men  in  employ  of  his  company.  Traction  company  head 
submits  wage  figures  taken  from  payrolls.  Superintendent  of 
Schools  favors  immediate  extension  of  vocational  education.  Bank 
president  opposed  to  marriage  for  men  earning  less  than  $1,000  a 
year.  Department  store  manager  estimates  cost  of  living  increased 
15  to  20  per  cent  in  twelve  years.  President  of  a large  mail  order 

!,  firm  disagrees  with  Mr.  Rosenw.ald  and  believes  that  the  law  of 

■ supply  and  demand  does  influence  wages.  Vice  president  of  The 

|:  Fair  supplies  further  information  with  particular  reference  to  male 

II  workers  and  their  wages.  Testimony  of: 

Mr.  Theodore  W.  Robinson,  vice  president,  Illinois  Steel  Com- 
pany; 

Mr.  Henry  A.  Blair,  chairman,  Board  of  Directors,  Chicago 
Railways  Company; 

Mrs.  Ella  Flagg  Young,  Superintendent  of  Schools; 

Mr.  James  B.  Forgan,  president.  First  National  Bank; 

|;  Mr.  Joseph  Basch,  general  manager,  Siegel,  Cooper  & Com- 

!■  pany; 

jl  Mr.  Abraham  Harris,  president,  Chicago  House  Wrecking 

Company; 

t Mr.  Edward  J.  Lehmann,  vice  president.  The  Fair. 


. I Chicago,  June  6,  1913,  2 o’clock  P.  M. 

I LaSalle  Hotel. 

I I The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  same  members 
I libeing  present,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had,  to-wit : 

Mr.  Theodore  W.  Robinson’s  Testimony. 

THEODORE  W.  ROBINSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Com- 
3 mittee,  was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as 
■ follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

I ! CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Y^ou  may  state  your  name.  A.  Theodore 
I W.  Robinson. 

. I Q.  What  is  your  business?  A.  First  Vice-President  of  the  Illinois 

' Steel  Company. 

. 1 Q.  That  is  a corporation?  A.  A corporation? 

, I Q.  Of  Illinois?  A.  Of  Illinois. 

, Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  by  your  corporation?  A.  About 

; twenty-two  thousand. 

i Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  of  the  twenty-two 
thousand?  A.  One  dollar  and  ninety-five  cents  a day. 
j Q.  Does  that  mean  six  times  $1.95  for  a week?  A.  One  dollar  and 
t ninety-five  cents  for  ten  hours  work. 

^ Q.  Do  you  employ  men  by  the  day  and  give  them  but  two  or  three 
I lays  work  during  the  week?  A.  Oh,  no,  no,  no,  we  couldn’t  keep  the  men 
i we  did  that. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  at  $1.95  a day?  A.  I can’t  give 
^'Ou  those  figures,  Governor. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  What  figures  have  you?  A.  I can  give  you  the  average  figures 
per  man  in  a general  way. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid?  A.  The  average  wage  paid  is 
$2.74. 

Q.  Two  dollars  and  seventy-four  cents  per  day?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  a general  way,  what  do  the  men  do;  what  is  the  nature  of  their 
ernployment?  A.  Of  course  we  are  in  the  steel  business,  and  that  begins 
with  the  smelting  of  the  ore  until  the  finished  product  is  turned  out  in 
the  shape  of  rails  and  bars  and  what  not.  It  takes  in  not  only  the  smelting, 
but  the  work  at  the  furnaces  and  the  conversion  of  the  ore  into  steel,  and 
the  rolling  of  the  steel,  and  so  forth,  in  the  various  departments. 

O.  Those  men  are  doing  what  you  would  term  hard  phj'sical  labor? 
A.  They  are  doing  physical  labor. 

Q.  Labor  of  a nature  that  would  require  strong  muscle?  A.  Not 
entirely,  no;  not  entirely;  there  is  a great  deal  of  mechanical  work 
performed;  a person  pulling  a lever,  it  doesn’t  take  a very  strong  man  to 
do  that. 

Q.  These  men  are  paid  by  the  day?  A.  Yes,  wq  have  day  men  and 
month  men. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  wage  paid  to  any  of  these  men?  A.  Why, 
if  I remember  correctly,  we  have  men  who  are  earning  $300  and  $400,  and 
possibly  some  that  are  earning  more  than  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  their  employment?  A.  What  is  termed 
“heating”;  that  is,  heating  the  steel  and  rolling  the  steel;  that  is  skilled 
labor. 

Q.  They  are  paid  higher  salaries  because  of  the  skill  that  they 
possess?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  are  those  men  employed?  A.  We  have  mills  at  Joliet, 
South  Chicago,  Milwaukee  and  North  Chicago,  and  Gary. 

Q.  Do  the  men  as  a rule  live  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  plant? 
A.  As  a rule,  yes. 

Q.  And  does  your  corporation  regulate  the  condition,  or,  in  a general 
way,  supervise  the  condition  of  the  neighborhood  in  which  the  men  live? 
A.  Only  indirectly.  We  have  no  tenants.  We  have  our  visiting  nurses, 
our  hospitals,  our  physicians,  and  we  do  a great  deal  of  welfare  work  and 
things  of  that  character,  but  we  are  not  landlords  in  that  sense.  I might 
modify  that  to  a certain  extent.  In  Gary,  it  being  a new  town,  we  have  had 
to  do  something  for  those  men. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  at  Gary"?  A.  We  have  about 
seventy-eight  hundred  men  at  Gary. 

Q.  What  proportion  of  the  population  of  Gary  work  for  you;  that  is, 
your  employes  constitute  what  proportion  of  the  total  population  of  Gary? 
A.  I can’t  answer  that  because  there  are  a good  many  industries  outside 
of  the  Illinois  Steel  Company  there,  and  I didn’t  have  those  figures  in 
mind. 

Q.  Gary  is  outside  the  jurisdiction  of  this  Committee  and  I am  simply 
asking  for  information  as  bearing  on  the  general  subiect.  At  Gary,  because 
so  many  of  your  men  live  there  with  their  families  and  children,  has 
your  corporation  interested  itself  in  the  direction  of  cleaning  the  moral 
atmosphere  of  the  town?  A.  As  far  as  we  can,  through  a general  scheme 
of  education,  for  instance,  at  Joliet,  we  have  what  we  call  our  Steel  Works’ 
Club,  and  through  that  club,  as  the  instrument,  we  hold  educational  classes 
and  lectures  and  work  of  that  nature.  We  do,  directly'  or  indirectly,  a 
great  deal  along  the  lines  ymu  speak  of. 

Q.  The  Committee  is  interested  in  Gary,  because  at  a previous  session 
it  was  shown  that  girls  were  taken  from  Chicago  to  Gary,  Indiana,  and 
sold  into  white  slavery  there  at  Gar_v,  and  the  Committee  would  like  to 
know  what  effort,  if  any',  the  corporation  that  y'ou  represent,  is  making  to 
remedy  conditions  there?  A,  I can’t  answer  that.  Governor;  I really 
don’t  know. 

Q.  As  Vice-President  of  your  corporation,  is  it  your  opinion  that  a 


I 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


741 


moral  responsibility  in  the  connection  indicated  should  be  accepted  by  you? 
A.  Yes;  as  is  evidenced  by  the  fact  that  with  the  club  at  Joliet,  with  our 
visiting  nurses,  with  our  hospital  work,  yes,  we  endeavor  as  far  as  we 
may  properly  to  benefit  the  community. 

Q.  Does  the  corporation  that  you  represent  control,  directly  or  indi- 
rectly, any  of  the  real  estate  in  Gary?  A.  By  a subsidiary  company;  not 
jdirectly  by  the  Illinois  Steel. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  subsidiary  company?  A.  The  Gary 
Land  Company. 

Q.  And  that  is  controlled  by  your  corporation?  A.  Not  by  the 
Illinois  Steel  Company,  no. 

t Q.  But  there  is  a connection?  A.  Through  the  United  States  Steel 
I sCorporation. 

Ili  Q.  How  much  of  the  real  estate  in  Gary  is  controlled  by  your 
subsidiary  corporation?  A.  I can’t  answer  that  question.  Governor,  inas- 
Imuch  as  I have  nothing  to  do  with  that;  that  is  not  an  Illinois  Steel 
; proposition  at  all. 

Q.  This  is  merely  illustrative  information  that  we  are  seeking.  A.  I 
(would  be  glad  to  give  it  to  you  if  I knew  it. 

Q.  May  I ask*  you  this:  are  any  of  the  houses  of  ill-repute  at  Gary, 
into  which  Chicago  girls  are  taken  and  sold  into  white  slavery,  situated 
on  land  owned  or  controlled  by  the  subsidiary  corporation?  A.  I don’t 
know,  but  I should  seriously  question  if  that  was  the  fact;  certainly  not  if 
the  corporation  knew  it.  Mr.  Knapp  tells  me  that  that  location  is  down 
I in  what  we  call  “The  Patch,’’  and  I,  of  course,  know  nothing  about  that, 
but  I dm  perfectly  safe,  I think,  in  saying  that  there  is  no  land  used  for 
any  such  purpose  if  the  corporation  knows  it;  there  is  no  question  about 
that. 

Q.  I believe  that;  but  I was  trying  to  find  out  how  far  your  corpora- 
jtion  has  accepted  its  moral  responsibility.  A.  Only  the  moral  influence  of 
any  body  of  men  who  are  desirous  of  bettering  the  community  in  which 
they  live. 


Q.  Your  corporation,  as  you  have  stated,  is  interested  in  the  welfare 
of  its  workers?  A.  Yes,  sir;  in  the  way  we  are  interested  in  the  conditions 
(Under  which  our  workers  live. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  find  that  some  man  working  for  your  corporation 
iwas  paid  inadequately,  an  inadequate  wage  for  the  support  of  his  wife 

i'and  family,  what  would  be  your  course;  to  increase  the  wage?  A.  I would 
answer  that.  Governor,  by  saying  that  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  and 
belief,  the  wages  we  are  paying  are  adequate  for  the  support  and  sustenance 
j of  a family.  < . j ^ ^ 

j Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  an  investigation,  or  caused  to  be  started 

1' an  investigation,  seeking  to  ascertain  what  is  a fair  living  wage?  A.  Only 
in  a general  way.  Governor. 

Q.  In  what  general  way?  A.  We  endeavor  at  all  times  to  keep  in 
touch  with  inside  conditions;  you  know  as  well  as  I know  how  that  is. 

Q.  Basing  your  reply  upon  that  general  information,  what  would  you 
' say  is  a fair  living  wage  for  the  man  who  has  to  support  a wife  and  family? 
j A.  We  recently  raised  our  wages,  I think  three  or  four  months  ago,  from 
i $1.75,  as  I recall  it — I am  giving  you  the  minimum  now — to  $1.95.  We  did 
I that  on  account  of  general  existing  circumstances  as  we  saw  them,  desiring 
to  be  fair  and  liberal  with  our  men,  and  desiring  to  have,  as  we  do  have, 
j their  hearty  co-operation.  Our  policy  is  not  to  see  how  little  we  can  hire 
; men  for,  but  rather  how  much  can  we  afford  to  pay  a man  for  any  given 
I character  of  work  they  do  for  any  given  efficiency. 

[ Q.  In  fixing  the  wage  paid  to  your  men,  you  take  into  consideration 
the  profits  made  by  your  corporation?  A.  That  would  simply  be  an 
indirect  factor  as  representing,  if  you  please,  the  general  prosperity  of 
the  community  and  the  country. 

Q.  Might  I ask  if  your  corporation  this  year  were  to  make  a profit 
j larger  than  last  year,  would  it,  in  readjusting  its  affairs,  give  the  men 
in  its  employ  a wage  higher  than  they  received  last  year  and  in  proportion 


742 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


to  the  increase  in  its  profits?  A.  We  don’t  attempt  to  handle  the  measure 
of  wages  directly  upon  profits  or  upon  losses;  neither  do  we  attempt  when 
the  adjustment  of  wages  is  under  consideration,  to  take  into  consideration 
factors,  of  which  that  naturally  would  be  but  one. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Robinson,  going  back;  did  I understand  that  you  stated 
what  you  considered  to  be  a fair  living  wage  for  a man  with  a family? 
A.  I stated  that  in  paying  $1.95  a day,  which  is  the  minimum  for  common 
labor,  we  considered  that  we  were  paying  a wage  which  we  considered  a 
fair,  just  wage. 

Q.  That  minimum  was  increased  from  $1.75  within  the  last  two  or 
three  months?  A.  Yes,  sir;  three  or  four  months,  as  I recall  it. 

Q.  A man  getting  $1.95  a day,  and  with  a family,  generally  lives 
where?  What  sort  of  a place  does  he  rent?  A.  Many'  of  our  men  own 
their  own  houses;  many  men  rent  and  then  take  boarde'rs,  and  if  so,  there 
are  many  men  who  board  with  those  who  own  the  homes. 

Q.  Do  any  of  the  people  who  work  for  you  live  in  so-called  tene- 
ments? A.  Practically  none;  not  that  I know  of  and  not  as  I understand 
what  you  mean  by  tenement. 

Q.  Do  they  live  in  crowded  quarters?  A.  No,  no,  no. 

Q.  How  are  the  housing  conditions?  A.  The  housing  conditions, 
as  a whole,  are  very  good. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  an  investigation  to  ascertain  what  pro- 
portion, if  any,  of  the  men  working  for  you,  have  savings  accounts  in  the 
banks?  A.  No,  I have  not,  although  I have  a general  knowledge  to  the 
effect  that  our  men  are  prosperous. 

Q.  By  prosperous,  you  mean  what?  A.  Thrifty,  saving  men. 

Q.  You  mean  that  many  have  savings  accounts.  A.  Oh,  ves;  many 
men  had  them  for  years  and  years  and  own  their  own  homes.  Those  men 
are  advanced  as  opportunities  permit  and  they  are  increased  because  of 
their  own  skill  and  efficiency.  We  work  under  a system  of  promotion 
wherever  the  opportunity  will  permit. 

Q.  You  have  boys  in  your  employ,  too.  A.  We  have  a certain 
number  of  boys;  most  of  them  are  really  young  men.  I judge  eighteen  to 
twenty-one  years  of  age.  We  have  some  of  them  apprentices. 

Q.  What  are  they  employed  at?  A.  Principally  messenger  boys;  I 
am  speaking  now  of  the  younger  boys— messenger  boys  and  the  sorting  of 
nuts  and  light  labor,  of  that  description. 

Q.  The  messenger  boys  are  paid  how  much?  A.  Let  me  see.  I 
think  I have  the  figures  here.  Governor,  to  show  that.  I see  that  the 
average  paid  all  of  the  young  men  under  twenty-one  years  of  age,  amounts 
to  $1.96;  that  is  the  average  of  them  all. 

D.  Per  day?  A.  Per  day;  now  that  includes  boys  who  are  working 
the  first  year  as  an  apprentice;  for  instance,  for  $1  a daj',  and  who  during 
the  second,  third  and  fourth  years  are  gradually  advanced  to  $2  or  $3  a 
dajr  as  the  case  may  be.  This  average  is  $1.96,  which  includes  them  all — 
apprentices  and  others. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  period  of  service  of  men  in  your  employ? 
A.  I can’t  give  you  those  figures;  we  have  men  in  our  employ  who  have 
been  there,  to  our  knowledge,  thirty  years. 

Q.  Have  you  any  men  who  have  been  in  your  employ  thirty  years 
who  are  receiving  less  than  $20  a week?  A.  I think  not,  although  I would 
not  say  positively. 

O.  Does  the  average  man  with  wife  and  family  get  enou.gh  money 
for  his  service  to  your  corporation  to  keep  up  a home  without  the  other 
members  of  the  family  being  compelled  also  to  go  out  into  the  business 
world?  A.  They  certainly  get  money  enough  to  raise  a family  respect- 
ably. When  vou  sajr  go  out  into  the  business  world,  you  and  I went 
out  into  the  business  world  and  everv  man  or  boy  goes  out  into  the 
business  world.  Your  son  goes  into  the  business  world:  when  he  starts 
in  high  school  or  technical  college  he  pays  for  that  privilege.  I claini  if 
a boy  or  girl  comes  from  a family,  who  are  not  financially  able  to  give 
their  children  that  educational  opportunity,  they  at  least  should  have  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


743 


opportunity  of  learning  a trade  or  a profession  in  the  shop  or  elsewhere, 
which  will  gradually  bring  them  to  that  state  of  efficiency  where  they  will 
likewise  be  able  to  make  good  wages  as  they  go  on  in  life.  So  I would 
again  say,  possibly  I may  have  misunderstood  you,  but  that  phrase, 
“forcing  them  out  into  the  business  world,” — we  are  all  forced  out,  and 
properly,  too. 

Q.  I am  referring  now  especially  to  the  girl,  Mr.  Robinson;  the  man 
who  has  a wife  and  a daughter  of  15  or  16  years;  he  is  working  for  your 
corporation,  and  he  is  being  paid  the  average  of  $2.74  per  day;  on  that 
$2.74  a day,  can  he  support  his  wife  and  daughter  of  15  or  16  years  of  age 
without  the  daughter  being  forced  out  to  get  a job  to  help  out?  A.  My 
answer  would  certainly  be  “yes.” 

Q.  I ask  you,  Mr.  Robinson,  if  among  the  men  working  for  your 
corporation,  the  men  .who  are  the  fathers  of  such  daughters,  there  are 
any  considerable  number  who  have  daughters  that  don’t  go  out  to  work 
to  help  support  the  family?  A.  I can’t  give  you  any  definite  information 
on  that.  Governor,  I am  sure;  I really  don’t  know. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  observation — does  the  average  child,  the  girl 
child,  in  your  industrial  colony,  go  out  into  employment?  A.  Not  until 
they  would  at  least  finish  the  public  school  system. 

Q.  By  public  school  system,  do  you  mean  the  high  school?  A. 
Statistics  show  that  there  are  comparatively  few  that  go  through  high 
school;  as  you  probably  know,  90  per  cent  of  our  school  children  leave 
'school  at  14  years  of  age. 

Q.  You  would  say  that  girls  go  out  into  employment  at  14  years  of 
age,  and  they  have  the  usual  education  given  to  girls  up  to  14?  A.  At  the 
age  of  14  statistics  show  that  the  average  child,  both  boy  and  girl,  leaves 
school;  if  they  go  to  take  care  of  the  household  with  the  mother,  or  they 
,may  go  into  training  of  some  kind,  or  into  industrial  life;  I have  no 
definite  statistics  on  that.  Governor. 

Q.  As  man  to  man,  Mr.  Robinson,  do  you  think  that  it  is  right  for 
any  girl  14  or  15  or  16  years  of  age  to  be  forced  into  employment  in  order 
) to  help  support  the  father’s  home?  A.  I again  would  question  the  word 
.’“forced,”  Governor.  Every  girl,  whether  it  be  in  the  family  of  the  rich 
'^or  in  the  family  of  the  poor,  after  they  leave  school,  whether  they  are  1-f 
or  18,  if  they  are  not  going  to  be  drones  in  the  human  family,  have  got 
(to  undertake  something  in  the  shape  of  education,  whether  it  be  training 
j for  a stenographer,  or  whether  it  be  in  the  training  of  a higher  education, 

; we  have  all,  naturally  every  woman  and  every  girl  has  naturally  when 
They  leave  school,  they  have  got  to  do  something. 

I Q.  Mr.  Robinson,  the  average  girl  who  goes  into  a store  as  a clerk 
or  who  goes  into  a factory  as  a working  girl,  in  that  factory,  does  she 
f come  usually  from  a rich  home  or  a poor  home?  A.  Naturally  from  a 
■poor  home,  I would  say. 

: Q-  Wouldn’t  you  say,  in  a sense,  that  the  poorness  of  her  home  has 

];  forced  her  into  that  kind  of  work?  A.  I think  you  mean,  possibly,  that 
■,  the  average... girl  is  under  the  financial  necessity  of  earning  her  livelihood; 

I assume  that  that  is  what  you  mean,  which  of  course  is  the  fact,  abso- 
■ lutely,  to  assist  in  gaining  a livelihood,  whether  by  assisting  at  home  or 
ji  getting  out  and  earning  what  she  can. 

; Q.  Have  you  any  girls  in  your  employment?  A.  We  have  about 

;H40,  all  told,  among  the  22,000;  150  possibly. 

i Q.  What  is  their  occupation?  A.  Stenographers,  typists,  telephone 

' operators. 

i Q.  What  are  they  paid  as  a general  thing?  A.  The  average  of 

; $60.77  a month. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 


SENATOR  BEALL:  Take 
vaphers  and  men  stenographers, 
which  give  you  the  best  service? 


your  stenographers,  your  lady  stenog- 
which  do  you  think  are  the  best,  and 
A.  I think  from  a standpoint  of  efficiency. 


744  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


while  I personally  prefer  women  from  the  standpoint  of  efficiency,  there 
is  not  very  much  difference;  it  depends  upon  the  individual. 

Q.  You  think  that  a man  and  a gfrl  ought  to  have  an  equal  chance 

in  this  world;  of  course  you  can’t  hire  girls  in  your  factory,  but  take  it 

in  the  stenographic  department  and  in  stores,  if  a girl  does  the  work  that 
a man  does  and  does  it  equally  as  well  as  he  does,  do  you  not  believe  she 
should  receive  the  same  wages?  A.  No. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  First,  for  physical  reasons. 

Q.  You  misunderstand  me.  I said  if  she  did  the  work  equally  as 

well  and  as  fast  as  the  man?  A.  I would  call  your  attention.  Senator,  to 

this  fact,  the  very  important  element  in  the  employment,  or  in  the  advance- 
ment of  any  individual  man  or  woman,  the  advancement  of  that  individual, 
whether  it  be  man  or  woman,  naturally  lies  in  the  expectancy  and  their 
capacity  to  go  forward  to  higher  things.  Now,  on  account  of  the  well 
known  limitations,  women  cannot  expect,  in  the  industrial  world,  to  reach 
the  heights  that  man  can. 

Q.  You  misunderstood  me.  You  put  a boy  into  your  business  world 
and  that  boy  wants  to  build  himself  up  in  it;  the  girl  expects  to  be  a 
stenographer;  she  can’t  go  higher,  and  therefore  her  occupation  is  not  as 
great  as  a man’s.  A.  Well,  I will  have  to  say  that  girls  could  not  go  as 
high  as  men;  her  field  is  more  limited. 

Q.  She  could  not  go  any  higher  in  your  employment;  take  these 
stenographers  that  you  are  paying  sixty  dollars  a month  for;  those  girls 
cannot  expect  to  go  higher?  A.  Some  of  them  do. 

Q.  You  take  a boy  16  or  18  years  of  age  and  they  go  up,  step  bv 
step?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Therefore,  after  a girl  has  been  there,  if  she  gets  the  chance  the 
boy  gets,  she  could  not  avail  herself  of  it,  but  if  the  boy  gets  a chance, 
he  is  going  to  work  higher?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Therefore,  up  to  that  time  that  she  gets  married,  for  instance,  if 
the  girl  is  as  good  a stenographer  as  the  man,  shouldn’t  she  be  entitled 
to  the  same  wages  as  the  man?  A.  I will  say  “No,”  as  a practical 
proposition.  You  possibly  know,  and  I certainly  know  of  certain  well 
known  presidents  of  large  railroads  that  center  here  in  the  city  of  Chicago, 
who  started  as  stenographers.  Women  could  not  possibly  do  that. 

Q.  That  may  be  true,  but  at  the  same  time  if  a woman  does  the 
work  allotted  to  her  as  well  as  a man  does  the  work  allotted  to  him,  if 
that  work  is  of  the  same  character,  should  she  not  receive  the  same  amount 
of  pay?  A.  My  point  is,  while  I agree  with  all  you  have  to  say,  there  is 
this  much  in  addition,  that  when  I hire  a stenographer,  a man  stenographer, 
you  understand  that  I am  hiring  someone  who,  if  he  has  got  mental 
capacity  to  recognize  what  is  going  on  about  him,  may  go  on  up.  Y'hen 
we  hire  a woman,  the  chances  are  that  she  stays  right  there  on  account  of 
conditions  that  you  and  I know  of. 

Q.  You  and  I agree  on  that;  there  is  no  question  on  that.  But 
suppose  you  were  going' to  hire  a stenographer  and  nothing  but  a stenog- 
rapher, and  a girl  was  as  good  as  a man,  don’t  you  think  that  the  girl 
ought  to  be  treated  as  well  as  the  man?  A.  I think  practically  she  is. 

Q.  That  is  exactly  what  I was  trying  to  get  at.  A.  I think  she  is. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Does  the  law  of  supply  and  demand  enter  into 
your  wages?  A.  The  law  of  supply  and  demand.  Senator,  influences  every 
industrial  consideration  to  a greater  or  less  extent;  it  is  by  no  means  the 
consideration  that  influences  us. 

Q.  You  have  a bonus  system  in  hiring  your  men?  A.  Well,  we 
have  and  we  haven’t;  I don’t  know  as  I exactly  know  what  you  mean. 
We  pay  certain  men  by  the  ton,  on  a certain  basis;  we  give  a bonus,  also 
as  a bonus  for  special  work  well  done,  at  different  periods  of  the  year; 
of  course,  that  is  in  addition. 

Q.  That  you  say  is  in  addition  to  the  regular  salary?  . A.  Those 
things  are  in  addition  to  the  regular  salary. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


745 


Q.  One  of  the  witnesses  this  morning  stated  that  the  law  of  supply 
and  demand  in  his  particular  business  did  not  enter  into  the  wage  question 
at  all;  he  didn’t  regard  that  as  any  item.  Do  you  regard  it  as  cutting  any 
figure  in  your  business?  A.  Why,  I don’t  think  so  great  a figure;  1 said 
it  would  cut  some  figure. 

Q.  Some  figure?  A.  In  every  industrial  enterprise,  in  my  opinion, 
we  have  to  recognize  it. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  When  did  your  people  have  a raise?  A. 
About  February. 

Q.  Last  February?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  as  a whole?  A.  Just  as  to  the  rank  and  file. 

Q.  Of  what  per  cent?  A.  If  I remember  it,  it  was  something  like 
10  per  cent;  it  was  not  a straight  increase,  you  understand,  but  it  averaged 
something  like  that,  as  I recall  it.  May  1 make  just  one  suggestion  to 
you?  I think  it  is  of  a great  deal  of  interest. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  all  here  to  learn. 

MR.  ROBINSON:  There  was  one  thought  that  has  come  to  me  in 
the  discussion  in  connection  with  this  question.  It  turned,  your  conversa- 
tion turned  to  questions  particularly  upon  the  girl  who  was  receiving  five 
dollars  a week  and  being  forced  out  into  the  business  world  at  five  dollars 
a week.  You  asked  a question  of  several  of  the  gentlemen  of  what  sugges- 

Itions  they  had  for  the  betterment  of  those  conditions.  I would  like  to 
suggest  that  there  are  two  things  which  you  should  consider,  and  which 
I presume  you  probably  have  considered,  and  one  is  that  in  all  of  these 
discussions,  you  have  got  to  recognize  the  laws  of  economics  just  as  sure 
as  you  have  got  to  recognize  the  laws  of  the  physical  being;  if  you  go 
contrary  to  either  one  of  which  you  will  get  yourself  into  trouble.  As 
R "bearing  on  that,  I wish  to  say  this:  that  my  opinion  is  that  if  the  girl  is 
[given  the  opportunity,  and  if  the  boy  is  given  the  opportunity,  of  increasing 
: |his  or  her  efficiency,  she  or  he  will  very  quickly  get  a larger  wage,  arid  as 
^ibearing  on  that,  you  have  right  now,  before  the  Senate,  an  educational 
f bill  for  vocational  training,  which  is  based  on  this  very  thing.  We  have, 
I so  I am  told,  a matter  of  twenty-five  thousand  or  thirty  thousand  boys  and 
I girls  between  14  and  16  years  of  age  in  the  city  of  Chicago  who  are  doing 
4 nothing,  derelicts  wandering  around  the  streets.  If  you  will  enact  some 
-Taws  that  will  tell  those  young  people  to  acquire  a training  which  will 
^ Tead  them  to  greater  industrial  efficiency,  you  will  go  a long  ways  toward 
■ ip solving  the  problem  which  you  are  studying  now,  in  my  opinion.  One 
Another  thing:  I have  heard  discussed  the  matter  of  industrial  service. _ I 
^ have  known  where  a girl  in  domestic,  not  industrial,  but  in  domestic  service, 
H lhad  ambition  to  study  and  become  a trained  nurse,  getting  twenty-five 
■j  . dollars  a week  from  now  on.  And  so  it  appears  to  me,  when  these  girls 
!!and  young  men  are  forced  to  go  into  the  W9rld  of  industry,  if  something 
j could  be  brought  forth  to  dignify  the  question  of  domestic  service;  now 

there  is  a prejudice  against  that,  but  if  they  can  remove  that  prejudice 

■<  against  that,  so  that  young  girls,  who  have  no  home  of  their  own.  can 
' get  such  training  which  would  lead  them  to  higher  things.  If  the  girl 
it  who  has  no  home  can  get  five  dollars  a week  and  thereby  gets  her  training, 
S it  will  in  the  end  give  her  an  earning  capacity  much  greater  than  she  can 

v hope  to  expect  in  almost  any  other  line.  I believe  that  while  you  are 

V handling  these  important  questions,  that  some  consideration  should  be 
t t given  to  the  fact  that  among  these  girls,  who  are  getting  these  low  wages, 
,!  many  are  getting  them  simply  because  they  are  acting  practically  as 
* apprentices.  I thank  you.  I agree  with  you  most  thoroughly  in  what  you 
? ’■  have  said  in  most  respects. 

•j  SENATOR  BEALL;  And  I agree  with  you  directly  in  regard  to  what 
j you  have  said  with  respect  to  domestic  service. 

'J  ; CHAIRMAN  O’HARA;  The  evidence  introduced  before  this  Com- 
i mittee  has  shown  something  like  50  per  cent  of  the  women  who  went  into 
I prostitution,  and  whose  cases  were  investigated  by  the  Federal  service, 
' came  from  domestic  service;  something  like  50  per  cent  of  them,  if  I 

I 


746  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  , 

remember  correctly.  An  investigation  by  the  Federal  authorities  showed  1 
that  to  be  the  fact,  and  it  appeared  that  was  because  the  hours  of  employ-  i 
ment  and  the  conditions  were  not  regulated.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  ( 
not,  that  the  regulation  by  the  State  of  the  hours  and  conditions  of  girls  } 
in  domestic  employment  might  have  the  effect  of  giving  dignity  to  that 
kind  of  female  employment  and  thus  attract  to  it  a large  number  of  young  . 
women?  A.  Of  course,  that  is  a form  of  employment  itself,  which  would  i 
be  subject  to  a very  extensive  discussion  on  both  sides. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  What  suggestion  would  you  have  to  offer  to 
dignify  that  service? 

MR.  ROBINSON:  It  is  a rather  difficult  and  complicated  question 
to  answer,  and  should  require  careful  study. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Wouldn’t  teaching  them  domestic  science 
do  that? 

MR.  ROBINSON:  Very  largely. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Or  other  vocational  education. 

MR.  ROBINSON:  Yes,  there  is  no  measure,  in  my  opinion,  that  so 
closely  touches  upon  this  whole  subject  matter  as  the  vocational  bill 
which  is  now  before  the  Senate. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  is  the  number  of  the  bill?  A.  That  is 
the  Cooley  bill. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  people  recommend?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  I am  going  to  ask  you  a question:  in  our  investigations  we  have 
been  talking  on  domestic  affairs,  and  people  complain  to  us  and  say  that 
they  cannot  hire  domestics,  that  they  won’t  come  to  work  in  the  house. 
We  had  a girl  on  the  witness-stand  in  Peoria,  a fallen  girl,  and  she  told  her 
story;  she  said  she  worked  out;  she  had  to  get  up  in  the  morning  at  half- 
past five  and  work  all  day;  at  night  the  men  folks  came  home  at  all  times, 
she  had  to  get  two  or  three  suppers,  and  she  could  not  get  her  dishes  done 
and  her  work  done  up  until  some  times  eight  or  nine  o’clock  at  night. 
When  she  had  a beau  come  to  see  her,  she  had  to  take  him  into  the  kitchen 
or  out  into  the  park,  or  in  the  backyard,  or  wherever  she  might  be  able 
to  see  him,  and  she  says  to  me,  “Do  you  suppose  I am  a slave?  I want 
some  of  my  hours  to  myself.”  You  can’t  hire  domestics;  and  nowadaj'S 
they  pay  $5  or  $6  a week  and  board  and  room,  but  the  girls  will  not  go 
to  work  in  domestic  service.  They  will  go  to  work  in  the  factories,  but 
they  will  not  be  a domestic;  now  is  there  anything  that  you  could  suggest; 
how  are  you  going  to  remedy  it?  A.  I think  that  might  be  a subject  well 
worthy  of  careful  and  scientific  investigation  on  the  part  of  some  people, 
a commission  or  otherwise. 

Q.  Domestics  have  no  pleasure,  or  very  few  of  them,  and  they  get 
them  after  nine  o’clock  at  night,  and  there  you  are.  If  they  could  sit  out 
on  the  porch  or  in  the  yard  or  some  place,  any  place  to  take  care  of  their 
beaux.  A.  As  I said  before,  I think  that  that  is  a matter  that  would  require 
very  careful  and  scientific  investigation  and  careful  thought. 

Q.  This  vocational  bill,  you  would  recommend  it,  would  you?  A. 
That  is  the  result  of  at  least  five  years’  hard  work,  of  scientific  investiga- 
tion of  many  of  the  conditions  that  we  have  been  discussing  here,  not  only 
in  every  state  in  this  country,  but  practically  every  country  abroad,  attd 
it  is,  without  doubt,  based  upon  the  most  scientific,  careful,  exhaustive 
investigation  ever  made  in  the  United  States  of  America.  In  m}-  opinion, 
you  have  in  that  bill  the  best  vocational  bill  of  any  state  in  this  country. 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

Q.  Are  the  men  working  for  your  corporation  organized,  A.  Yes 
and  no.  We  run  an  open  shop  and  there  are  union  and  non-union  men 
working  there. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


747 


Q.  Is  that  the  Cooley  vocational  educational  bill?  Is  that  the  one  you 
ire  referring  to?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  that  endorsed  by  the  labor  unions?  A.  That  bill  is  drawn,  and 
»vas  to  a certain  extent,  influenced  by  the  finding  of  the  committee  of  educa- 
:ion  appointed  by  the  Federation  of  Labor  and  reported  before  Mr. 
jGompers  in  Detroit,  or  Toledo,  two  years  ago.  There  has  been  some 
question,  as  I understand  it,  raised  on  the  part  of  some  of  the  labor 
leaders  here  in  the  City  of  Chicago,  but  it  is  a measure,  the  conditions  of 
which  and  the  provisions  of  \vhich  absolutely  meet  with  the  findings  of 
fhe  General  Federation  of  Labor,  Mr.  Gomper’s  body. 

Q.  Is  it  not  the  fact  that  the  bill  is  being  opposed  by  representatives 
bf  certain,  if  not  all,  of  the  labor  unions  in  this  state?  A.  I have  under- 
stood that  there  has  been  certain  opposition  to  it;  how  far  that  goes. 
Governor,  I don’t  know.  I know  and  you  will  find  that  it  is  a measure 
that  has  been  advocated  by  the  national  body  and  has  been  introduced  in 
various  states  and  endorsed  by  the  labor  leaders.  Here  in  this  state  there 
seems  to  be  some  special  objections  which  have  brought  forth  more  or 
less  opposition. 

Mr.  Henry  A.  Blair’s  Testimony. 

HENRY  A.  BLAIR,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
pxamined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

j CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Henry  A.  Blair. 

I.  Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  Chicago  Railways  Company,  Chairman 
|of  the  Board  of  Directors. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  by  that  corporation,  Mr.  Blair? 
A.  Eight  thousand  seven  hundred  and  sixty-nine. 

f ' 

1 Q.  What  is  the  average  w^age  paid?  A.  Sixty-nine  dollars  and  twenty 
jcents,  and  that  is  divided  up  in  this  way:  the  trainmen  receive  $75.63;  the 
car  shops,  $65.58;  track  department,  which  is  mostly  construction  and 
labor,  $52.63;  office,  $91;  engineering,  $63;  operating,  $79,  making  an 
laverage  of  $69.28.  There  are  4,879  men  in  the  train  department;  984  in 
the  car  shops;  1904  in  the  track  department;  236  in  the  office  and  557  in 
.the  engineering  department,  and  209  in  the  operation  of  cars. 

Q.  Have  you  an  age  limit,  Mr.  Blair,  in  your  corporation?  A.  No, 

I sir. 

j Q.  In  regard  to  conductors  there  is  no  age  limit?  A.  No,  sir. 

I Q.  Under  wdiat  system  are  conductors  and  motormen  engaged?  A. 
They  go  through  the  employment  department,  or  employment  departments, 
jand  they  are  examined  for  physical  conditions  and  so  forth;  and  if  strong, 
able  men,  they  are  taken  in  as  motormen  or  conductors.  I suppose  there 
'are  a number  of  the  oldest  men,  conductors,  who  have  been  transferred 
'to  other  departments,  either  swdtchmen  or  something  of  that  sort,  or  to 
the  barn. 

Q.  Have  you  any  particular  employment  at  which  you  keep  at  work 
men  that  might  be  generally  classified  as  old  men?  A.  I don’t  think  so. 
Governor;  that  comes  entirely  within  the  operating  department,  and  I 
don’t  know  that  I could  answer  that  question  entirely  satisfactorily,  but 
they  are  transferred  to,  for  instance,  the  barns;  they  are  stationed  at  the 
barns;  a great  many  of  the  older  men  that  can  do  work,  they  are  about  the 
.cars  doing  work  that  they  could  not  do  as  motormen  and  conductors;  then 
'we  have  a large  number  of  barns. 

Q.  Now,  at  the  barns,  Mr.  Blair,  what  are  those  men  paid?  What 
would  be  a fair  average  of  the  amount  paid  to  men  at  the  barns?  A.  I 
'don’t  think  there  would  be  any  change;  we  haven’t  any  changes;  we  keep 
|Our  men  along.  Our  wages  are  regulated  by  the  unions  and  we  make  a 
'contract  with  them;  it  is  simply  a question  of  the  time  that  they  have 
been  in  the  employ. 


I 

748  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Q.  All  of  your  men  are  union  men?  A.  All  of  the  trainmen.  There 
are  some  non-union  men  in  the  shops,  I think. 

Q.  In  the  shops  do  the  men  get  less  money  than  the  trainmen  get?  A. 
No,  I think  not;  there  are  certain  men  in  the  shops,  and  probably  they 
do.  I think  the  average  is  a bit  over  that  of  the  barns;  the  car  shops 
average  $65.58  and  the  trainmen  average  $75.63.  They  work  a greater 
number  of  hours.  The  minimum  hours  for  trainmen  is  nine  hours,  while 
in  the  shop  it  would  be  six,  seven  or  eight  hours,  because  the  shops  don’t 
run  as  the  trainmen  run.  I think  that  would  account  mostly  for  the 
difference. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea,  Mr.  Blair,  of  the  minimum  wage  that  should 
be  paid  a man  with  a wife  and  family  to  support?  A.  No,  I have  not, 
Governor;  I never  have  studied  that  carefully  enough  to  give  an  opinion. 

Q.  In  your  employ  no  difference  is  made  between  a man  who  is 
single  and  a man  who  is  married?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  fact,  the  wage  is  not  based  upon  the  sufficiency  or  the  insuffi- 
ciency of  the  wage  paid  to  support  a wife  and  family?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe,  Mr.  Blair,  that  there  should  be  an  industrial 
condition  in  which  the  minimum  living  wage  paid  to  the  head  of  a family 
should  suffice  to  support  the  entire  family?  A.  I do;  I think  it  could 
be  brought  about  where  such  a problem  could  be  worked  out;  I think 
they  ought  to  get  a little  more. 

Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  give  to  the  Committee  along  that 
line?  A.  Well,  I don’t  know  that  my  experience  in  the  business  world 
has  been  so  much  in  the  way  of  a commercial  life  as  it  has  been  in  the 
banking  field  and  with  the  traction  companies,  and  I have  dealt  with  men 
very  largely.  The  problem  is  too  big  for  me.  I think  it  should  be  ver>- 
carefully  thought  of.  and  I think  the  evidence  should  be  given  the  greatest 
consideration,  and  this  Committee  should  give  its  best  efforts  and  should 
be  given  the  greatest  support  to  bring  about  the  result  desired. 

O.  One  other  question  and  I am  through:  your  average  wage  to  men 
is  a little  less  than  seventy  dollars  a month?  A.  Sixty-nine  dollars,  in- 
cluding all  classes.  That  includes  boys  and  labor  of  all  sorts;  it  includes 
all  in  our  emplov.  For  instance,  I simply  take  the  statement  for  April 
here,  which  has  been  handed  to  me;  there  are  152  men  in  our  emnloy  in 
the  claim  department  that  earn  over  $100  a month;  there  are  888  men 
that  earn  between  $90  and  $100;  there  are  1.346  men  that  earn  between 
$80  and  $90:  there  are  1,044  men  that  earn  between  $70  and  $80,  and  it 
goes  down  in  that  proportion.  The  minimum  wages  that  we  pay — nine- 
hour  wages:  a person  working  for  two  hours,  we  pay  for  nine  hours.  The 
maximum  is  eleven  hours.  It  was  agreed  among  the  men  themselves  and 
it  was  adjusted  in  that  way,  I think,  where  up  from  the  first  year  they 
come  in  at  23  cents  per  hour,  and  at  the  end  of  the  sixth  year  they  receive 
the  maximum  charging  for  three  months,  so  they  increase  according  to 
their  ability  and  so  forth. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I suppose  those  schedules  are  fixed  by  the 
union?  A.  Yes,  they  are  absolutely. 

Q.  And  you  were  pleased  on  both  sides?  A.  Yes,  it  was  fixed  by 
arbitration,  and  Justice  Carter  was  the  umpire. 

Q.  For  how  long  did  you  have  that  schedule?  This  was  for  a 

term  of  three  years.  The  one  before  this  was  for  three  years  and  I 
think  this  is  for  three  years. 

O.  At  the  end  of  three  years  you  have  a new  schedule?  A.  Yes. 

O.  When  did  the  old  schedule  expire?  A.  It  exnired.  and  this  was 
dated  back  as  of  August  the  12th,  so  this  expires  in  1915:  I am  not  sure 
whether  it  is  three  years  or  four  years.  I was  away  at  the  time  of  the 
arbitration.  I am  not  sure  whether  it  was  three  or  four  years,  but  I 

think  it  is  three  years,  though.  

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  There  was  a division  among  the  members  of 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


749 


I 

I 


he  commission  fixing  that  schedule?  A.  There  was  a minority  report. 

' think  Judge  Scanlan  made  a minority  report. 

Q.  He  was  an  arbitrator,  appointed  by  the  men?  A.  He  was  arbi- 
rator  for  the  men.  I don’t  think  it  was  a question  of  wages;  I think  the 
aien  were  perfectly  satisfied  with  the  wages;  it  was  a question  of  arriving 
it  the  maximum  perhaps,  a little  quicker. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Have  you  any  women  in  your  employ?  A. 
jifes,  sixty-nine. 

Q.  What  do  they  do?  A.  Mostly  stenographers  in  the  office;  their 
average  is  $63.26. 

Mrs.  Ella  Flagg  Young’s  Testimony. 

ELLA  FLAGG  YOUNG,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 

' EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

j'  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Ella  Flagg 

|Young. 

Q.  Your  occupation?  A.  Teaching. 

I Q.  And  your  official  position?  A.  Superintendent  of  Schools. 

' Q.  For  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  Mrs.  Young,  what  do  you  think  of  the  proposition  of  vocational 

ieducational  training?  A.  I think  that  when  the  schools  rise  to  a full 
(Understanding  of  that,  that  we  shall  have  as  few  complaints  made  re- 
Igarding  schools,  as  it  is  possible  for  anything  here  on  earth  to  have, 
i!  Q.  What  will  the  effect  be  of  vocational  education  as  bearing  upon 
(industrial  conditions?  A.  If  they  have  vocational  education,  industrial 
(education,  the  American  workman  and  workwoman  will  have  a higher 
^tconception  of  what  it  is  possible  for  him  or  for  her  to  do  in  the  line  of 
Iwork  to  which  he  or  she  is  chosen;  if  they  have  simply  vocational  train- 
ling,  we  may  have  a lot  of  cogs  to  the  machine  that  will  start  off  fairly 
■Iwell,  and  reach  the  limit  of  aspiration  and  power  in  about  two  years. 
liDo  I make  myself  clear? 

}|  Q.  Vocational  education  brought  to  perfection,  or  near  to  perfec- 

Ii'tion,  would  require  how  many  years  of  a student’s  time?  A.  That  would 
i.  depend  upon  the  vocation  to  some  extent.  I think  that  the  day  is  coming, 
(|and  not  far  distant,  when  the  training  in  the  school  from  the  first  will  be 
||a  training  for  knowledge  as  a tool  and  not  as  it  is  now,  to  a very  large 
Si  extent  all  over  the  world,  a training  for  the  impression  upon  the  mind 
1 of  that  which  has  been  done,  instead  of  the  training  school  to  be  used 
I in  the  future.  Now  the  question  in  vocational  education  is  to  train 
is  the  doing,  and  at  the  same  time  have  the  mind  at  work  behind  that. 
Training  to  doing  so  that  the  ability  to  do  a thing  and  its  environments 
::  is  acquired,  and  the  mind  very  soon  drops  out  of  its  mere  habit, 
ill  Q.  The  practical  purpose  of  vocational  education,  is  to  make  the 
y.boys  and  girls  able  to  support  themselves;  isn’t  that  the  end  sought  to 
, be  achieved?  A.  Not  alone;  you  will  have  to  put  something  else  in 
there  if  you  accept  vocational  education  that  I have  in  mind.  It  must 
not  only  fit  the  boy  and  girl  to  do  the  work  so  that  the  individual  will 
' ; be  supported  well  by  the  industry,  but  also  to  set  an  aim  in  the  mind 
; of  the  boy  and  an  aim'  in  the  mind  of  the  girl  to  -besome  something. 

I ' And  I don’t  mean  by  that  all  of  that  old  thought  about  president  of  the 

i United  States  and  so  on;  but  all  of  these  various  lines  of  work  that  we 

1;  are  trying  to  do  now,  is  to  work  out  an  understanding  of  the  many  lines 

, of  occupation,  so  that  when  the  boy  goes  out  of  school  he  does  not 
j simply  drift  into  something;  he  has  learned  to  work  with  his  hands  and 
[ to  use  his  mind  upon  his  work,  and  in  the  study  which  we  endeavor  to 
I make  of  occupations,  he  has  found  out  already  that  he  is  possessed  of 
r ! talent  or  desire  in  certain  directions,  and  he  would  like  to  work  in  those 
I [ lines. 

; i Q.  One  of  the  ends  aimed  at  by  vocational  education  is  to  plant  in 
G the  mind  of  the  student  an  occupational  ideal;  to  change  the  ambition 


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I 


of  the  American  boy  from  the  one  commonly  expressed,  to  become 
president,  to  becoming  proficient,  or  almost  proficient,  in  the  line  of  work 
in  which  he  individually  is  fitted;  is  that  your  idea?  A.  Yes;  which 
would  fit  his  endowment  or  training;  the  school  gives  him  that  endow- 
ment. 

Q.  The  fundamental  thing  is  to  make  first  the  boy  or  girl,  who  has 
completed  the  system  of  vocational  education,  self-supporting?  A.  Yes. 
if  the  first  you  have  stated  full}"  were  accomplished,  it  would  frerjuently 
comprehend  the  second;  self-support. 

Q.  You  believe  that  anyone  with  an  ambition  is  capable  of  self-  > 
support?  A.  I have  no  confidence  in  these  ambitions  that  are  in  the  air, 
with  no  foundation. 

Q.  Then,  we  will  say  that  when  the  boy  or  girl  gets  through  with 
that  system  of  vocational  education,  he  has  an  ambition  and  he  has  the 
ability  to  make  a living.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that,  under  the  system  of  vocational  education, 
you  can  complete  the  course  of  instruction  by  the  time  the  boy  or  girl 
reaches  the  age  of  fourteen  or  fifteen?  A.  No.  We  have  between  six 
hundred  and  seven  hundred  boys  and  girls,  a great  many  more  boys  than 
girls,  in  continuation  work;  doing  their  work  during  the  day  and  coming 
to  us  in  the  evening  and  working  there  along  the  lines  that  make  them 
more  proficient;  whether  it  is  electricity  training  or  the  scientific  side. 
We  have  also  in  Chicago  a class  coming  from  the  .factory  of  the  R.  T. 
Crane  Company,  two  rooms-full  of  apprentices,  who  come  one  morning 
in  the  week;  they  come  at  half-past  eight  in  the  morning  and  stay  until 
twelve  and  are  taught,  not  to  do  hand  work  (we  have  got  no  factory), 
but  they  are  taught  to  believe  that  they  should  burden  their  minds  with 
a knowledge  of  the  things  on  which  they  are  working.  Now,  the  car- 
penters, they  send  the  apprentices  three  months  in  the  year  for  three 
years  to  us  all  day  long,  and  we  give  them  at  first  purely  what  I call 
academic  work,  for  lack  of  a better  name;  we  give  them  mechanical  draw- 
ing and  mathematics  bearing  on  wood  work,  and  reading.  We  have 
added  to  that  in  the  last  few  j"ears  manual  training.  Young  fellows 
eighteen  to  twenty  years  of  age  come  to  us  with  hardly  any  knowledge 
of  the  foundation  of  municipal,  state  or  national  government.  Now  we 
have  added  to  it  some  advanced  forms  of  woodwork.  At  first  the  unions 
and  the  skilled  laborers  smiled  and  would  not  concede  that  we  could 
teach  anything  to  their  apprentices  about  carpentry,  but  they  come  to 
us  now. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Is  that  an  industrial  school  that  you  are  talk- 
ing of?  A.  Not  onlv  an  industrial  school,  but  we  have  three  technical 
schools,  as  we  call  them,  because  the  industrial  school  is  rather  limited 
to  trade  work,  and  in  Chicago  we  are  not  doing  pure  and  simple  trade 
work.  We  are  trying  all  the  time  to  keep  improving  the  trade  work, 
but  at  the  same  time  to  put  something  into  the  life,  so  that  when  the 

boy  gets  through  with  his  work,  the  eighteen,  twenty  or  sixteen  year  old 

bov,  in  the  evening  when  he  gets  through  with  his  work,  that  he  is  not 
going  to  be  satisfied  with  the  lowest  form  of  entertainment  that  the  city 
can  offer. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  the  age  of  the  average  girl  or  boy 
leaving  the  public  schools?  A.  Do  you  mean  leaving  the  eighth  grade 
or  the  high  school? 

Q.  Dropping  out  of  the  system  alto.gether?  A.  I could  not  give 

you  that;  I could  tell  you  the  age  at  which  we  begin  to  lose  them  auite 

markedly,  and  that  is  the  age  of  fourteen,  and  the  class  of  children 
whom  we  lose  generally  at  that  age,  belong  to  this  great  class  that  need 
particularly  to  do  hand  work  of  some  kind;  not  to  be  limited  to  books.  It  is 
strange,  we  have  what  we  call  three  vocational  schools.  The  boys  and  girls 
that  have  dragged  along,  get  to  the  middle  grades,  are  tired  of  school  and 
would  rather  ,go  to  any  place  in  the  world  than  to  school,  and  so  they  begin 
to  be  truants.  MY  have  three  vocational  schools,  where  thev  work  half 
the  day  on  hand  work  and  half  a day  on  book  work,  and  it  is  one  of 
the  strangest  things  that  ever  hapnened  in  educational  work,  that  with 
that  work,  half  a day  only  on  the  book  and  half  a day  with  hand  work. 


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’they  are  keeping  up  with  the  other  children  that  are  working  all  day  on 
ibooks. 

I Q.  These  children,  who  leave  school  at  fourteen,  do  they  come 
[usually  from  the  poorer  homes?  A.  I should  naturally  say  yes  to  that, 
land  yet,  in  a school  down  on  the  South  Side,  in  the  stock-yards  district, 
'ffrom  which  you  could  scarcely  find  five  per  cent  of  the  pupils  who  were 
[doing  advanced  work,  five  per  cent  of  the  pupils  that  had  passed  through 
The  eighth  grade,  we  started  this  vocational  work  and  one  hundred  per 
'cent  of  those  in  the  upper  classes  have  gone  on  to  the  high  technical 
(school.  They  are  supposed  to  be  children  of  poor  people,  but  as  soon 
fas  you  get  implanted  in  the  mind  of  the  boy  or  girl  the  idea,  “I  \vant  to 
"be  that,  and  they  are  teaching  me  how  to  do  that  work  to  be  that,” 
Ithen  you  have  struck  a responsive  chord  in  an  otherwise  reluctant  and 
{dormant  mind.  I have  never  had  so  much  faith  as  to  the  ultimate  good 
(that  these  schools  will  do  as  I have  had  since  I have  seen  work  that 
jhas  been  done  in  and  about  these  schools. 

j Q.  A percentage  of  boys  and  girls  is  lost  to  the  public  schools, 
jis  it  not,  because  of  poverty  in  the  homes?  A.  I suppose  so. 
j Q.  You  haven’t  an}^  way  of  telling  us  definitel}^  what  that  per- 

jcentage  or  proportion  is?  A.  No,  really  we  are  always  shy  of  two 
[things  in  the  public  schools;  one  is  making  an  inquiry  into  the  condition 
i of  the  family,  and  the  other  is  probing  down  into  their  connections, 
1 and  yet  I rvant  to  say,  on  the  other  hand,  that  there  are  a great  many 
j children  that  are  going  to  our  public  schools,  who  are  fed  and  clothed 
" by  their  teachers. 

{ Q.  There  are  a great  many  of  them  fed  and  clothed  by  their 

i teachers?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  nobody  knows  it  except  a few  teachers. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Why,  Mrs.  Young?  A.  Why  are  they  fed  and 
clothed? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Because  their  parents  are  poor.  We  have  in  certain 
schools  what  is  called  penny  lunches,  in  four  schools,  where  the  mothers 
go  out  to  w'ork.  At  noon  the  children  w'ant  to  be  out  around  on  the 
streets,  or  run  home  and  get  a crust  of  bread  or  something  of  that  sort, 
or  maybe  some  beer;  and  with  these  penny  lunches,  they  are  not  fed 
like  paupers;  we  feed  in  these  four  schools  about  tw'o  thousand  children 
a day. 

Q.  What  do  you  give  them  for  that  penny?  A.  We  have  to  have 
a variety;  it  is  rather  odd;  they  know  which  days  are  soup  days  and 
which  days  are  doughnut  days,  and  which  days  are  rice  and  cakes. 

Q.  A penny  does  not  pay  for  it,  does  it?  A.  No,  the  women’s 
clubs  pay  for  it;  there  are  fifty-seven  women’s  clubs  in  this  city  and 
they  have  what  they  call  an  extension  committee,  and  that  extension  com- 
mittee always  attaches  itself  to  the  public  schools  to  introduce  and  help 
inodernize  some  form  of  work  or  support  it  until  the  Board  of  Education 
is  satisfied  that  that  should  be  maintained  by  the  city.  Then  the  city 
takes  it  of¥  their  hands,  and  instantly  those  industrious  women  have 

something  else.  Those  are  the  women  who  started  the  vacation  schools 
and  they  supported  them  for  years;  afterwards  the  Board  of  Education 
saw  that  the  vacation  school  was  a desirable  adjunct  to  the  reeular 
schools;  then  these  women  started  out  and  came  to  me  and  wanted  to 
know  if  there  was  anything  else  they  could  do.  I said,  “Yes,  they  had 
better  try  penny  lunches.  I think  the  food  is  not  so  palatable  or  so 
good  as  it  should  be;  I should  think  that  women  who  are  heads  of 

families,  women  from  the  fifty-seven  clubs,  ought  to  be  able  to  go  in 
there  and  help  us  out  on  this.”  They  immediately  took  that  matter  up, 
and  they  supplied  the  deficit.  There  is  a deficit  right  along  and  they  have 

been  supplying  it.  The  Board  furnishes  equipment  and  all  that,  but  they 

furnish  the  food. 

Q.  The  effect  is  that  the  child  is  beter  prepared  for  study,  with  more 
food?  A.  That  is  what  the  principals  of  the  schools  say,  that  there  is  a 
marked  change  in  those  children. 


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Q.  Physical  well  being  has  much  to  do  with  the  mental,  do  you  find? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  also  with  the  morals?  A.  Undoubtedly. 

Q.  There  is  no  doubt  about  it?  A.  Of  course,  you  get  along  where 
the  physical  well  being  may  pass  be3^ond  the  stage  of  well  being,  and  be — 
I was  going  to  say — coddling  of  the  body,  and  then  you  have  the  decentive, 
you  see  from  the  fine  conditions  of  the  body. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  are  two  dangers — one  the  danger  of  the  very 
poor  and  the  other  the  danger  of  the  very  rich?  A.  Yes;  that  is  what  they 
say — the  extremely  poor  and  the  extremely  rich  are  all  the  time  wandering 
over  the  earth — one  traveling,  the  other  wandering,  but  they  are  both  doing 
the  same  thing  with  soul  and  body. 

Q.  Do  you  find  that  there  are  quite  a number  of  girls  who  are  sent 
to  the  public  schools,  and  who  come  there  without  enough  to  eat?  A.  I 
have  an  idea  that  there  are  many  more  children  that  are  not  well  fed  then 
we  know  about;  they  may  eat  large  enough  bulk,  but  they  are  not  well 
enough  fed;  a much  larger  percentage  than  we  suppose,  but  we  are  meeting 
that;  we  are  trying  to  meet  that  in  our  teaching,  in  our  household  dietetics. 

Q.  How  many  children  are  enrolled  in  the  public  schools  of  Chicago? 
A.  We  had  enrolled  306,000  in  the  day  schools,  not  counting  the  evening 
schools.  It  is  not  counting  the  branches  that  come  to  our  evening  schools, 
but  it  is  counting  those  that  come  to  our  continuation  schools,  the  car- 
penters, _ electricians,  plumbers  and  the  girls  from  the  department  stores, 
but  not  including  the  evening  schools.  We  had  about  20,000  in  the  evening 
classes. 

Q.  If  the  father  is  paid  a wage  inadequate  to  support  the  wife  and  the 
family,  and  as  a result  the  daughter  attending  public  school  until  she  is  14, 
has  not  quite  enough  to  eat,  would  saj'  in  a general  way  that  her  mental 
and  moral  growth  might  be  retarded,  directly  because  of  that  inadequacy 
of  wage  paid  the  father?  A.  That  would  be  a pretty  hard  question  to 
answer.  We  know  that  some  of  the  strongest  men  and  some  of  the 
strongest  women  we  have  had  in  this  country  have  been  inadequately  fed. 
I should  say,  first,  it  is  a great  loss  to  the  children,  to  the  .girls  and  to  the 
boys.  Take  the  girls  and  the  boys  who  have  simplj^  rj^e  bread  and  poor 
coffee  or  beer  for  breakfast,  and  then  have  them  come  to  school,  then  go 
home  at  noon  and  get  something  of  the  same  sort;  I should  say  that  they 
could  not  be  well  fed,  and  I would  venture  it  as  an  opinion  that  those 
children  cannot  do  as  well  on  that  sort  of  food,  or  as  efficient  work  as 
those  who  are  better  fed,  or,  I might  saj’,  properly  fed. 

Q.  Do  you  care  to  express  an  opinion  as  to  the  advisability  of  the 
enactment  of  a woman’s  minimum  wage  law?  A.  Well,  I have  expressed 
myself.  I am  always  afraid  of  a minimum  wage  law.  They  undertook 
to  have  a minimum  salary  for  teachers  established  in  Chicago  some  j-ears 
ago;  they  undertook  to  have  it  established  bj^  law.  Now,  as  soon  as  you 
do  that  you  have  special  legislation.  That  was  my  position  at  that  time. 
Now,  when  you  have  special  legislation,  before  you  get  through  with  that 
law,  you  will  see  the  day  that  you  will  wish  it  had  not  ever  been  enacted. 
I believe  that  this  was  about  ten  j^ears  ago.  If  we  had  had  the  minimum 
salaries  fixed  by  law  for  the  teachers  in  Chicago,  then  it  would  mean 
that  every  teacher  must  begin  at  that  lowest  salarjq  and  when  the  cost 
of  living  advanced — I didn’t  think  at  that  time  that  it  was  going  to  advance 
as  it  has  advanced  in  this  country  the  last  few  j-ears — when  the  cost  of 
living  advanced,  that  minimum  wage  would  not  enable  one  to  meet  the 
reasonable  demands  of  her  position  or  his  position  as  a teacher;  that  is  the 
danger  of  a minimum  wage. 

Q.  You  refer  to  a minimum  wage  fixed  in  dollars  and  cents?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  I mean  one  that  is  flexible,  that  can  be  changed;  that  minimum 
always  to  be  a living  wage.  A.  Do  j'ou  believe  that  could  ever  be  done? 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  This  bill  provides  for  a change  once  a ^-ear 
if  necessary. 

MRS.  YOUNG:  I wonder  if  j-ou  could  follow  things  up  that  waj’? 


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CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  There  is  the  element  of  experiment  in  every- 
thing. 

MRS.  YOUNG:  Of  course,  if  you  have  a flexible  minimum  wage; 
but  to  go  back  to  my  original  point  as  to  special  legislation,  there  are  so 
many  things  that  can  come  up. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  As  a general  principle,  you  believe  that  the 
girl  and  the  man  worker  should  at  least  be  paid  a living  wage?  A.  At 
least — most  certainly. 

Q.  And  you  believe  that  the  man  who  has  a wife  and  children  should 
be  paid  a wage  adequate  to  the  support  of  the  family?  A.  Yes,  sir;  you 
mean  more  than  simply  enough  for  food  and  clothing,  don’t  you?  “Man 
cannot  live  by  bread  alone.’’ 

Q.  Then,  if  a minimum  wage  for  women  is  necessary  to  protect  the 
health  and  promote  the  happiness  of  the  girls,  and  the  welfare  of  the 
women,  do  you  believe  that  a minimum  wage  law  for  married  men  would 
prove  of  benefit?  A.  Oh,  certainly;  I don’t  see  how  you  can  limit  it  as 
to  men  or  as  to  women.  I think  it  must  be  as  to  both. 

Q.  You  believe  that  sometimes  the  inadequacy  of  wage  paid  to  men, 
who  are  the  heads  of  households,  permanently  injures  the  girls  and  the 
boys  of  those  families?  A.  Oh,  certainly. 

Q.  You  have  ascertained  that  to  be  the  case  as  superintendent  of  the 
public  schools  of  Chicago  and  coming  into  contact  with  these  of  thousands 
; of  children?  A.  I have  come  into  contact  with  it  as  principal  of  the  large 
t schools. 

jj  Q.  Do  you  believe  that  girls  from  these  homes,  where  there  is  in- 
i[  adequacy  of  income,  when  they  go  out  into  business,  become,  directly  or 
q indirectly,  the  competitors  of  the  male  heads  of  households?  A.  As  a 
:■  stenographer,  probably  yes;  as  a teacher,  yes,  and  yet  not.  In  both  of 
d those  cases,  I fully  believe  that  a man  of  ability  always  rises  above  the 
position  in  which  the  low  salaries  are  paid,  either  as  stenographer  or 
j!  teacher,  within  two  or  three  years,  while  the  great  mass  of  women  do  not 
i.  rise  above  them. 

Q.  Why  is  that,  Mrs.  Young?  A.  Well,  in  teaching,  a man  who  goes 
111  ■ in  as  a teacher  in  the  elementary  schools  at  the  salary  paid,  would  continue 
E':  to  advance  one  hundred  dollars  a year;  he  would  be  a man  who  would  look 
t;  to  the  future,  probably  a man  desiring  to  have  a home  and  a family,  and 
would  naturally  look  forward  to  that  time  and  would  work  for  advance- 
1 ment,  while  a woman  who  would  go  in  at  that  wage,  into  those  places, 
would  remain  there;  and  many  of  them  do  remain  there.  The  average 
woman  expects  to  marry,  or  to  be  married — I would  put  it  in  the  passive — 
, and  she  usually^remains  there. 

Q.  That  is  an  ambition,  isn’t  it,  if  she  wishes  to  be  married?  A.  She 
doesn’t  go  around  saying,  “I  must  marry,  I must  marry,’’  not  in  that  way, 
but  she  thinks  of  it  just  the  same,  and  she  thinks  that  it  is  only  a question 
of  time  when  she  may  leave  teaching  and  go  into  the  home,  and  she  does 
not  endeavor  to  advance  like  a man  would.  There  are  manv  who  do 
endeavor  to  rise  above  the  lowest  schedule  of  salary.  But  that  man,  you 
would  not  want  that  man  in  school  if  he  did  not  advance.  I remember  a 
superintendent,  Mr.  Howland,  maybe  you  remember  him  here.  He  used 
to  say  that  he  didn’t  want  that  kind  of  a man  in  the  schools.  I never  said 
that;  of  course,  I think  it  is  a good  thing  for  him  to  begin  there  and  stay 
there  a short  time,  but  it  is  a different  thing  to  teach  in  the  high  schools. 
There  they  run  up  to  $2,600  a year  in  salaries. 

Q.  Mrs.  Young,  your  theory  is  that  there  should  be  some  ambition 
implanted  in  the  minds  of  both  the  boy  and  the  girl?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  generally,  in  the  case  of  the  girl,  that  ambition  has  to 
do  with  the  home?  A.  Yes,  a man  has  that  idea,  too;  that  is  basic  in  the 
nature.  If  you  have  got  a nation  full  of  unmarried  men  I would  not  give 
much  for  your  nation. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Good. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  the  ambition  implanted  in  the  mind 
of  the  girl  who  leaves  school  at  14,  comes  from  a poor  home,  comes  into 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


a factory,  on  a wage  of  five  dollars  a week;  what  is  the  ambition  that  is 
implanted  in  her  mind?  A.  To  get  out  of  it. 

Q.  That  is  her  ambition,  to  get  out  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  ways  are  open  to  her  to  get  out  of  it?  A.  klarriage,  or 
some  other  line  of  work.  We  have  many  girls  who  come  into  our  evening 
continuation  classes  who  are  in  those  cheap  lines  of  factory  work,  whose 
minds  have  become  filled  with  the  idea  that  they  ought  to  do  something 
that  leads  somewhere,  and  they  come  to  us  in  our  evening  continuation 
classes,  and  many  of  them  have  been  fitted  for  work  in  better  lines  and  have 
lifted  themselves  above  the  cheap  factory  places. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  As  the  head  of  Chicago’s  great  public  school 
system,  is  it  your  opinion  that  a factory  which  pays  girls  two  or  three 
dollars  or  four  dollars  a week  is  a benefit  or  a menace  to  the  community  in 
which  it  is  situated?  A.  A menace. 

Q.  It  is  a menace?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  suggest  as  the  remedy  for  that?  A.  Send  the 
employers  to  school.  They  have  a school  of  civics  and  philanthropj'  here 
in  town;  that  might  be  a good  place  for  them. 

Q.  What  is  that  paper  you  have  in  your  hand?  A.  That  is  a sched- 
ule of  salaries  paid.  We  have  different  schedules;  jmu  take  the  elementary 
schools  and  the  highest  salary  is  $1,200  and  the  lowest  salary  is  $650. 
That  would  make  $925  the  average;  that  is  simply  in  the  elementar}' 
grade;  but  the  moment  one  becomes  an  eighth  grade  teacher,  she  or  he  is 
paid  a little  extra,  and  the  head  assistants  receive  $1,500  a j-ear.  The 
men  in  the  manual  training  elementarj^  schools  are  in  a group  by  them- 
selves; thej'  begin  at  $850.  and  they  run  up  to  $1,500.  It  takes  them  seven 
years  to  reach  $1,500,  and  that  means  every  forty  weeks  out  of  fifty-two. 
I think  that  the  most  of  those  men  also  teach  in  the  evening  schools,  and 
there  they  receive  $3.50  an  evening,  and  the  evening  schools  run  about 
one  hundred  evenings  in  the  year,  and  that  would  be  $325  added  to  the 
$1,500.  They  are  young  men.  The  women  teach  household  art  and 
science  and  cooking,  and  the  salaries  run  from  $850  to  $1,300. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  What  do  you  think  of  our  Normal  Schools  for 
fitting  the  teachers  to  teach  in  the  public  schools? 

MRS.  YOL^NG:  I think  the  Normal  Schools  have  advanced  in  their 
method  of  preparation  of  teachers,  the  most  markedlj'  of  anj-  class  of 
schools  that  we  have.  The  time  was  when  teachers  in  the  Normal  Schools 
were  theorists;  they  did  very  little  in  the  wa^-  of  preparing  teachers  to 
go  in  and  make  their  work  a part  of  the  life  of  the  boys  and  girls.  They 
have  advanced  most  wonderfully. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  We  are  asked  for  a great  deal  of  money  for 
them,  and  I guess  they  are  worth  it. 

MRS.  YOL'NG:  Yes,  you  take  teachers  who  haven’t  had  an^-  prep- 
aration; if  you  had  a fine  horse,  j'ou  would  not  let  a man  come  in  and 
take  charge  of  it  who  had  never  had  anything  to  do  with  a horse,  or  knew 
nothing  about  horses. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Me  will  agree  with  you  on  that.  I wanted 
some  information,  that  was  all.  I wanted  to  find  out.  \Ve  have  appro- 
priated for  a new  training  school  at  Champaign  and  one  at  Normal. 

MRS.  YOL^NG:  I think  the  money  is  well  spent.  The  L’niversity 
of  Illinois  is  doing  a tremendous  piece  of  work  in  the  uay  of  developing 
the  practical  education  of  young  men.  I don’t  know  as  it  is  doing 
so  much  for  the  women.  One  thing  that  you  have  got  to  take  up  in 
connection  with  this  wage  question,  and  that  is,  when  you  speak  about 
what  a man  can  earn,  can  live  upon,  are  the  women  trained  so  that  they 
know  how  to  spend  the  money  for  the  housekeeping  most  advantageously? 
It  is  really  a tremendous  question,  and  that  is  my  greatest  objection  to 
girls  going  so  early  into  the  work  at  factories,  that  they  don’t  learn  about 
economical  housekeeping. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


755 


1 1' 

j EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

I SENATOR  TOSSEY:  You  are  acquainted  with  what  is  known  as 

> the  Cooley  \^ocational  School  Bill?  A.  Yes. 

^ Q.  Will  you  tell  us  what  you  think  about  that  bill — whether  you  en- 

! j doi:se  it  or  not?  A.  No,  I don’t  endorse  it  because  of  the  split  in  the 
(f  school  system.  If  you  put  that  wedge  in,  and  have  part  of  the  public 

i I!  money  appropriated  for  the  training  of  boys,  from  fourteen  to  sixteen,  you 

. j:  will  have  another  wedge  put  in  soon,  and  then  you  will  have  another 

> wedge,  and  then  I would  like  to  know  where  your  public  school  system 

i I . will  be  after  awhile.  I think  there  should  be,  I think  there  is  and  should  be 

; a method  of  teaching  which  develops  and  expands  the  minds  and  powers 
i of  the  children  in  accordance  with  the  fundamental  ideas  of  government. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  I understand  you  to  say  you  don’t  endorse 
! S that  bill?  A.  No,  I do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  endorse  any  of  those  bills  down  there?  A.  I would  have 
i to  qualify  that  answer  as  to  that. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  I understand  j^ou  to  say  that  you  endorsed 

I vocational  training?  A.  Oh,  yes,  I do. 

Mr.  James  B.  Forgan’s  Testimony. 

1 JAMES  B.  FORGAN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
- examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 


|l  EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN, 

i 

" CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  James  B.  Forgan. 

i Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  President  of  the  First  National  Bank, 

j Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  in  that  bank,  Mr.  Forgan?  A.  I 

have  a memorandum  here  which  shows  that  we  have  597  persons  em- 
Ij'  ployed — 580  males  and  17  females. 

ji  Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  in  your  bank?  A.  Well, 

I we  commence  with  bell-boys.  There  are  48  of  them;  the  lowest  wage  is 
■ i $240  a year — $20  a month;  the  minimum  is  $216,  and  the  maximum  $276 
I a year.  The  salary  starts  at  $18  a month  and  the  average  service  is  a 
I year  and  a half,  and  the  average  age  is  fifteen  and  a half  years,  and  all  of 
our  boys  of  14  to  16  are  limited  to  eight  hours  work  a day.  Then  we 
! take  them  above  that  and  we  have  them  classified  as  follows: 

I This  is  the  employes  below  what  we  call  the  officers;  this  is  below 

! the  officers — below  the  official  staff;  I don’t  think  you  want  to  investigate 

I them,  because  they  are  all  in  pretty  good  circumstances. 

Managers  of  departments,  clerical  departments,  we  have  got  nine, 
averaging  a monthly  salary  of  $260  a month;  the  average  yearly'  salary 
is  $3,120;  the  minimum  is  $2,500,  and  the  maximum  $4,500. 

i Assistant  managers,  there  are  thirteen  of  them,  getting  an  average 

monthly  salary  of  $200  a month,  and  an  average  yearly  salary  of 
$2,445,  a minimum  of  $1,700  and  a maximum  of  $3,100. 

I Then  we  have  what  we  call  general  men,  that  is,  men  who  have 

been  trained  in  the  office  and  can  be  put  behind  a clerical  desk.  They 
get  about  $180  a month,  on  the  average;  average  yearly  salary  $2,180, 
a minimum  $1,400,  maximum  $2,600. 

Then  there  are  the  payers,  or  paying  tellers;  they  are  very  well 
paid  men;  they  are  experts;  there  are  only  four  of  them,  and  they 
I average  in  salary  $350  a month;  average  yearly  salary  $4,190;  the 

i minimum  is  $3,400,  and  the  maximum  $5,000  a year. 

Assistant  payers,  the  men  that  handle  money  and  get  it  ready 
1 for  the  payers,  there  are  eleven  of  them.  The  average  monthly 

I salary  is  $133;  average  yearly  salary  $1,600;  minimum  salary  $600; 

maximum  $3,300. 

f Receiving  tellers — fifteen  of  them — get  a monthly  salary  of  $180; 

i average  yearlv  salary  $2,150;  minimum  of  $1,500,  and  maximum  of 
I $2,400. 


yS6  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


i 


Assistant  receiving  tellers — nineteen  of  them — average  monthly 
salary  $105,  average  yearly  salary  of  $1,250;  minimum  of  $960,  and 
maximum  of  $1,300. 

There  are  thirty-eight  bookkeepers,  average  monthly  salary  $128, 
average  yearly  salary  $1,330;  minimum  $1,200;  maximum  $1,600. 

Assistant  bookkeepers,  there  are  fifty-seven,  average  monthly 
salary  $73;  average  yearly  salary  $872;  minimum  $600;  maximum 
$1,100. 

Currency  assistant  tellers,  that  is,  sorting  and  handling  currency 
to  be  sent  to  Washington  for  redemption,  nineteen  of  them  getting 
an  average  salary  of  $100  a month;  average  yearly  salary  $1,220;  mini- 
mum $900;  maximum  $3,000. 

Clerks,  216,  getting  an  average  salary  of  $91  a month;  average 
yearly  salary  $1,100,  minimum  salary  $420,  maximum  $3,800. 

Messengers — they  are  the  young  men  that  we  have  come  up 
from  bell-boys,  and  come  right  in  from  high  school  at  the  age  of  17 
or  so.  They  come  in  to  learn  the  business  and  we  put  them  to  work 
as  messengers  first.  We  pay  them  an  average  monthly  salary  of  $43, 
an  average  yearly  salary  of  $515,  minimum  $300,  maximum  $l,0OO. 
The  ones  that  get  a $1,000  are  somewhat  different  from  what  I have 
explained,  but  these  men  are  probably  average  men,  like  letter-car- 
riers, that  come  in  as  permanent  messengers  and  do  not  expect  to 
dvelop  beyond  that;  they  come  in  presenting  drafts,  and  go  from 
one  bank  to  another,  and  one  thing  and  another.  Those  are  men. 
The  rest  would  be  quite  young,  under  age.  The  salary  to  start  with, 
as  a messenger,  is  $25  a month,  and  the  average  service  of  a messenger 
is  two  years.  The  average  age  of  a messenger  is  seventeen  and  a 
half  years. 

In  regard  to  the  females,  we  have  twelve  stenographers,  and 
they  get  an  average  salary  a month  of  $96,  an  average  by  the  3-ear 
of  $1,155,  minimum  $900,  maximum  $1,650. 

We  have  two  telegraph  operators  getting  an  average  salary  of 
$90  a month,  the  average  salary  is  $1,070  a year,  minimum  3-early  salary 
$840,  and  maximum  $1,300.  Of  course,  there  are  only  two  and  that 
means  that  one  of  them  gets  $840,  and  the  other  gets  $1,300. 

Telephone  switchboard  operators,  there  are  three  of  them,  getting 
an  average  salary  of  $57,  an  average  by  the  3'ear  of  $680,  minimum 
yearly  salary$540,  maximum  $840. 

I wish  to  say  that,  in  addition  to  salaries,  the  bank  supplies  the 
midday  meal  to  the  people  that  are  employed  b3-  us,  at  its  own  expense, 
which  is  quite  a matter  of  saving  to  the  clerks  and  messengers. 

Q.  Is  that  a good  custom  for  other  emplo3-ers  to  adopt?  A.  I 
think  from  our  standpoint  it  would  be.  We_  are  sort  of  forced  to  do  it 
because  of  our  very  short  hours  of  public  business,  running  from  9 o’clock 
to  3;  we  can’t  afford  to  give  very  much  time  for  lunch  in  the  middle 
of  the  day.  With  587  people  in  our  employ,  besides  officers,  _we  could 
not  let  them  out  for  an  hour  or  so  in  the  middle  of  the  da3-.  We  have  to 
take  lunches  in  relays  and  it  is  served  quick.  We  have  a lunchroom  in 
the  top  story  of  the  building  and  they  do  it  all  up  in  about  thirty  minutes. 

senator  BEALL:  Do  they  all  sit  down  at  the  same  time? 

MR.  FORGAN;  No,  in  relays,  but  it  only  takes  them  about  twenty 
minutes  to  get  their  lunch,  because  it  is  all  prepared  and  well  ser\-ed. 
It  is  not  altogether  for  their  benefit;  it  saves  time. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Have  you  an3-  rule  regarding  the  amount  of 
salary  a man  must  receive  in  your  employ,  if  he  marries? 

MR.  FORGAN:  That  is  not  a rule  of  the  bank.  We  have  a rule  in 
connection  with  our  pension  fund.  The  emplo3-es  of  the  bank  have  a 
pension  fund,  which  is  partially  paid  by  the  employes  and  a portion  by 
the  bank,  and  into  which  the  employes  contribute  3 per  cent  of  their 
salary.  The  bank  contributes  much  more  than  the  employes  do,  and  we 
have  built  up  a very  substantial  fund  there  from  which  the  emplo3-es 
derive  benefit.  After  they  have  been  fifteen  3'ears  in  the  employ  of  the 
bank  if  they  break  down  in  health,  the  bank  takes  care  of  them  and  gives 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


757 


|,  them  as  many  fiftieths  of  their  salary  as  they  have  spent  years  in  the  bank. 
That  is  to  say,  a man  who  has  been  there  fifteen  years  would  receive  fifteen 
fiftieths  of  his  earnings,  running  up  to  twenty-five  fiftieths  as  the  maxi- 
mum, and  that  would  be  one-half  salary  that  is  paid  to  men  who  break 
down  in  health.  It  is  paid  to  his  widow  if  he  dies,  and  it  is  paid  for  the 
1 benefit  of  his  children  until  they  are  18  years  of  age.  It  follows  the 
children  if  the  widow  gets  married  again.  It  stops  as  to  her  if  she  marries 
again,  but  the  children  get  it  up  to  18  years  of  age. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  a man  with  a wife  and  family  to  support 
should  receive  a minimum  salary  of  a thousand  dollars  a year?  A.  I 
want  to  explain.  I will  answer  the  question  and  say  that  it  is  a part  of 
;i  the  system  to  which  they  contribute  themselves.  The  man  that  is  not 
ii  earning  a thousand  dollars  a year  should  not  involve  the  pension  fund 
( with  liability  for  his  wife  and  children,  for  he  is  not  contributing  enough 
||  to  it. 

' Q.  You  adopt  the  rule  suggested  by  the  pension  fund?  A.  Yes, 

i the  penalty  would  be  that  they  would  lose  the  benefit  of  the  pension 
j'  fund  if  they  got  married  before  they  were  getting  a thousand  dollars  a 
f year. 

j Q.  They  would  not  be  discharged?  A.  No,  but  they  would  lose 

i the  benefit  of  the  pension  fund. 

Q.  Have  you  any  married  men  who  are  receiving  less  than  a thousand 
;;  dollars  a year?  A.  I think  not;  we  have  had  to  break  the  rule  once 
j:  or  twice.  We  have  had  to  break  the  rule  and  add  a hundred  dollars  to  a 
|i  sayary  under  certain  circumstances,  for  young  fellows  who  were  in  a 
;|  hurry  to  get  married.  We  have  done  it  when  we  had  a nice  young 
il  fellow  and  he  would  not  quite  reach  that  amount,  we  would  make  it  up 
I'  rather  than  to  let  him  lose  the  benefit  of  the  pension  fund  or  let  him 
;i  go;  we  put  him  so  that  he  could  do  it  legally. 

i Q.  Mr.  Forgan,  do  you  think  that  a man  earning  $12  a week  can 

j:  support  a wife  and  family  here  in  Chicago?  A.  I can  only  say  I could 
1:  not.  I don’t  know  how  anybody  else  can.  I don’t  know  how  that  could 

;!  be  done.  It  is  too  distant  from  what  I have  to  do,  so  I have  nothing 

; to  say. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  care  to  try  the  experiment?  A.  And  I don’t 
care  to  try  the  experiment. 

Q.  Is  it  a fair  presumption,  Mr.  Forgan,  that  the  children  of  the 

I,  man  being  paid  $12  a week  must  leave  school  at  an  early  age  and  go  to 

I'l  work?  A.  Yes,  we  have  a selfish  way  of  looking  at  that.  When  we 

1 employ  a boy  that  is  not  of  paying  age,  one  of  the  first  inquiries  is,  are 

j his  parents  in  position  to  support  him?  I think  you  can  see  the  reason 
|!  for  it.  We  can’t  afford  to  have  anybody  who  is  dishonest  working  in 
the  bank;  the  opportunities  are  too  big,  and  therefore  the  question  of 
1 whether  he  can  be  properly  supported  or  not  is  one  of  the  questions  to 
!|  be  investigated  before  we  employ  him.  We  see  the  father  and  make 
arrangements  with  the  father  with  the  understanding  with  that  boy  that 
' we  pay  him  enough  to  live  on,  but  with  the  understanding  that  the  father 
il  wants  him  to  learn  the  business  and  for  a year  or  two  he  will  be  supported. 

I When  I started  the  business,  I got  as  much  a year  as  these  young  fel- 

lows  get  a month.  I got  five  pounds  the  first  year,  ten  pounds  the 

second,  fifteen  pounds  the  third,  and  twenty  pounds  the  fourth;  that  was 
i my  first  four  years  in  the  bank  and  I thought  I was  getting  quite  an 
' advantage  and  it  was  quite  a privilege  to  get  the  position. 

[ Q.  Then  you  think  that  the  inadequacy  of  wa^e  has  something  to 

' do  with  the  power  to  resist  temptation?  A.  Decidedly.  A young  fellow 
; gets  into  spending  more  than  he  is  earning,  gets  into  debt,  he  may  get  in 
' debt  to  some  pretty  hard  creditor,  who  is  crowding  him  or  pushing  him, 

' and  it  is  undoubtedly  a strong  temptation  to  him  to  temporize  at  first, 

I perhaps  thinking  he  can  help  himself  to  something  to  meet  that  emer- 
j gency,  and  in  meeting  that  emergency  he  gets  in  from  bad  to  worse. 

Q.  Most  of  the  dishonesty  in  life  comes  from  such  conditions,  does  it 
I'  not?  A.  I think  so,  from  pressure  of  circumstances,  yes. 

Q.  What  suggestion  have  you  to  make  to  this  Committee,  in  the^way 
T)f  laws  that  might  give  to  the  man  who  has  a family  to  support,  a living 


758 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


wage;  and  to  give  to  the  girl  and  to  the  boy  who  is  working  a living 
wage;  without  working  an  injustice  upon  the  emploj'er?  A.  I don’t 
think  that  I can  make  any  suggestion.  I don’t  think  I have  any  suggestion 
to  make.  The  work  of  the  Committee,  as  I see  it,  is  so  complicated,  I 
would  have  to  follow  it  out  the  way  you  are  following  it,  by  a very 

careful  study.  I have  never  gone  into  that  study  myself;  I have  never 

had  the  time,  for  one  thing.  Things  flash  into  my  mind  about  the  dissi- 
pated man  or  the  spendthrift  and  the  man  who  does  not  take  care  of  his 
money  when  he  makes  it,  or  uses  it  for  a poor  purpose,  as  a good  many 
of  them  do,  as  compared  with  the  man  who  husbands  his  resources  and 
takes  care  of  them  and  applies  them  in  a proper  direction  to  care  for 
himself  and  his  family;  there  is  so  much  of  that  that  comes  into  it  that 

I get  confused.  I must  say  that  I haven’t  got  any  idea  or  any  theory 

that  I could  suggest. 

Q.  Have  you  considered  the  matter  of  a minimum  wage;  that  is,  leg- 
islation looking  in  the  direction  of  a minimum  wage?  A.  Yes,  but  I could 
not  say  that  I thought  much  of  it.  I have  seen  it  discussed  in  the  news- 
papers, largely  in  connection  with  the  work  of  this  Committee,  but  I think 
it  is  an  open  question  whether  a minimum  wage  law  is  desirable,  from 
a social  economic  standpoint. 

Mr.  Joseph  Basch’s  Testimony. 

JOSEPH  BASCH,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee,  was 
examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Joseph  Basch. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  I am  in  the  retail  dry  goods  store 
business. 

Q.  With  what  company?  A.  Siegel,  Cooper  & Company. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  there,  Mr.  Basch?  A.  We  employ 
eleven  hundred  men — a thousand  to  eleven  hundred  men. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  these  men?  A.  When  I say 
men,  I mean  we  employ  adults,  780;  we  employ  150  of  the  age  between 
18  and  21;  we  employ  one  hundred  between  17  and  18,  and  then  we  emploj' 
around  fifty  at  or  about  16  years,  making  a total  of  1,080. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  or  boy  in  your  emplo\'? 
A.  The  lowest  wage  paid  any  boy  is  six  dollars. 

Q.  Six  dollars  a week?  A.  We  haven’t  paid  a lower  wage  for  bot'S 
than  six  dollars  a week. 

Q.  That  is  your  minimum  wage  for  boys?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  those  boys  do?  A.  They  are  as  a rule  apprentices:  they 
enter  our  houses  and  are  promoted;  thej-  are  started  in  the  different 
channels  in  which  their  mind  is  running  and  according  to  the  application 
that  they  show. 

Q.  How  long  an,  apprentice  period  do  they  generally  serve?  A.  We 
have  had  apprentices  that  developed  within  eighteen  months  or  twenty 
months;  then  we  have  had  some  that  took  two  years  to  reach  a higher 
wage  or  better  position  that  pays  a higher  wage. 

Q.  Now,  of  the  men  outside  of  the  apprenticeship  class,  what  is  the 
lowest  wage  paid?  A.  The  next  pay  is  eight  dollars. 

Q.  What  do  they  do?  A.  These  are  the  boys  that  have  developed 
from  the  16  and  17-year  wage  class,  and  they  walk  into  positions  that  they 
have  developed  into.  They  are  perhaps  six  months  stock  boys,  messenger 
boys,  they  are  in  the  auditing  department,  some  are  inclined  to  do  book- 
keeping, some  are  in  our  advertising  department,  in  our  publicity  bureau: 
some  of  the  boys  will  develop  in  our  publicit3'  end,  and  start  there  at  a- 
salary  of  eight  dollars. 

Q.  Now,  Air.  Basch,  what  is  the  lowest  wage,  the  lowest  amount  of 
monejr  that  you  paj'  anj-  of  3'our  man  clerks?  A.  The  lowest  wage  that 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


759 


( 

I 

l|  we  pay  men — that  is,  we  have  a class  here  between  18  and  21,  we  pay 
;!  them  ten  and  a half  as  an  average,  up  to  the  21-year  period. 

Q.  They  are  clerks,  are  they?  A.  They  are  stock  men  and  beginners 
of  the  selling  force;  beginners  in  the  selling  force.  Our  sales  help  men 
begin  at  twelve  dollars;  that  is  about  the  salary. 

, Q.  About  what  is  the  average  salary  paid  to  man  clerks?  A.  Fourteen 
, dollars  and  ninety  cents — that  is,  the  selling  force. 

Q.  Then  you  would  say  that  fourteen  or  fifteen  dollars  is  a fair 
1 average  wage  for  a man  clerk?  A.  For  that  sort  of  work. 

Q.  Does  fifteen  dollars  a week  get  you  a pretty  good  clerk?  A.  A 
fairly  efficient  clerk.  We  pay  as  high  as  forty  dollars.  We  have  salesmen 
I to  whom  we  are  paying  eighteen,  twenty,  twenty-five,  thirty-five  and  forty 
; i dollars  a week.  Of  course,  you  understand  that. 

I Q.  But  fifteen  dollars  would  get  what  you  would  consider  to  be  a 
i;  pretty  fair  clerk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  has  got  to  have  some  experience?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  enters  at 
twelve  dollars  and  develops  very  quickly  into  fifteen  dollars;  it  depends 
I;  entirely  upon  his  ability. 

Q.  You  have  a minimum  wage  to  married  men?  A.  We  don’t  employ 
; any  at  less  than  twelve  dollars. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  rule  been  in  effect?  A.  Always  has  been; 

; that  is,  as  long  as  I can  remember. 

Q.  Always  has  been?  A.  I think  that  we  have  had  that  rule  at 
least  for  twelve  years. 

Q.  That  is,  twelve  years  ago  you  paid  no  married  man  less  than 
ii  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  No. 

Q.  And  today  you  pay  no  married  man  less  than  twelve  dollars  a 
b'week?  A.  We  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  not  believe,  Mr.  Basch,  that  the  cost  of  living  has  increased 
■ii  in  these  last  twelve  years?  A.  I believe  that  certain  commodities  have 
Ml  increased,  only.  I don’t  believe  everything  in  the  home  or  everything  in 
L foods,  or  everything  in  wearing  apparel  has  increased.  I think  the  foods 
*'  have.  Most  of  the  foods  have.  Meats,  for  instance.  I think  the  develop- 

11;  ment  in  the  production  of  manufactured  lines  is  so  enormous,  the  work 
II  room  facilities,  transportation  facilities  and  consumption  of  all  of  it  having 
> entered  into  the  larger  production  and  cost,  enables  us  to  give  a small 
I article  for  less  money  than  we  were  able  to  furnish  it  twelve  years  ago. 

' In  other  words,  we  are  selling  a better  suit  of  clothes  today  to  a man  for 
fifteen  dollars,  in  material,  quality  of  cloth,  in  trimmings,  in  make  and 
[.  in  style,  than  has  come  to  my  notice  in  at  least  twenty  years.  It  is  a 
II!  beter  article,  better  fitting  and  better  made. 

I Q.  Averaging  it  all  up,  the  price  of  food,  the  price  of  rent,  and  so 
‘ forth,  would  you  say  that  in  the  last  twelve  years  the  cost  of  living  has 
I gone  higher  or  lower?  A.  I think  it  is  generally  higher,  but  I think  it 
; has  just  started,  from  my  own  experience  as  a general  department  store 
j man.  It  is  exaggerated  to  a degree,  from  my  experience  as  a department 
j " store  man. 

Q.  What  percentage  would  you  say  that  the  cost  of  living  has  in- 
j,  creased  in  twelve  years?  A.  If  the  household  expense  is  represented  by 
i n 50  per  cent  in  food,  that  50  per  cent  in  food,  I believe,  is  the  greatest  in- 
1:  crease  in  the  cost  of  living.  The  balance,  I doubt  whether  that  is  in  keeping 
j with  the  advance  in  foods.  In  other  words,  I think  you  get  a better 
P apartment  today  for  twenty  dollars  a month  than  you  could  twelve  years 

I-  ago,  much  more  sanitary  conditions  than  you  could  twelve  years  ago. 
I believe  you  can  furnish  your  home  at  a less  cost  than  you  could  twelve 
: years  ago.  We  are  selling  brass  beds  today  for  perhaps  50  per  cent, 

I quality  for  quality,  less  than  twelve  years  ago,  and  that  is  only  one  of 
I the  items.  I think  the  cost  of  furniture  generally,  you  would  get  a better 
article  for  the  same  money  today  than  twelve  years  ago,  and  also  in  many 
, other  lines. 

.j;  Q.  Well,  could  you  say,  Mr.  Basch,  that  the  cost  of  living  has  in- 
creased in  the  last  twelve  years  12  per  cent,  or  15  per  cent,  or  any  definite 

! 

i 


760  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


figure?  A.  I would  average  the  estimate  of  increased  cost  of  living  to 
be  from  15  to  20  per  cent. 

Q,  Higher  than  it  was  twelve  years  ago?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  this  twelve  dollar  minimum  wage  paid  by  you  to  the  mar- 
ried men  is  really  based  upon  the  cost  of  living  twelve  years  ago?  A.  No, 
it.  isn’t,  because  we  haven’t  many  men  at  twelve  dollars,  and  we  haven’t 
perhaps  any  more  than  we  had  then.  Those  are  men  that  began  at 
twelve  dollars. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  twelve  dollars  will  support  a married  man. 
and  his  family  at  the  present  cost  of  living?  A.  I could  not  say  as  to 
that.  I might  say  that  the  ability  of  the  housewife  is  a large  factor, 
perhaps  as  large  a factor  as  the  ability  of  the  husband  to  earn.  I have 
seen  twelve-dollar-a-week  men  in  that  situation  of  life  save  money  and 
come  home  to  a cheerful  home,  and  I have  seen  men,  married  men,  with 
an  earning  capacity  of  double  that  amount,  who  are  not  as  fortunate  in 
their  surroundings  at  home.  It  is  altogether  an  economic  question,  you 
know;’  money-spending  is  not  always  productive  of  the  greatest  amount 
of  comfort  or  happiness. 

Q.  You  would  say,  then,  that  a man  can  support  a wife  and  children 
on  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  That  depends  on  the  wife,  to  a great 
extent. 

Q.  But  he  can  do  it?  A.  Yes,  it  is  being  done,  but  we  don’t  en- 
courage that. 

Q.  It  is  being  done  by  some  of  the  people  who  work  at  your  store? 
A.  To  a very  small  degree,  yes;  we  have  such  men.  Unfortunately  their 
capacity  is  small,  their  earning  capacity  being  limited  to  twelve  dollars 
a week  wage;  they  do  twelve-dollar  work. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  a man  who  is  receiving  twelve  dollars  a 
week  and  has  a daughter  can  afford  to  keep  her  in  school  until  she  is  19 
years  of  age?  A.  I think  he  can;  schools  are  free;  I think  a thrifty  mother 
will  provide  that. 

Q.  It  is  possible,  you  think?  A.  They  do  exist. 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  When  you  testified  before,  how  many  girls  did 
you  say  you  had  in  your  employment?  A.  If  I remember  right,  about 
nine  hundred — no,  pardon  me,  thirteen  hundred;  I don’t  remember  the 
exact  number. 

Q.  The  number  being  equal,  an  equal  number  of  girls  and  an  equal 
number  of  men,  did  you  ever  study  to  see,  or  do  you  know  if  the  girl  is 
as  good  a salesman  as  the  man?  A.  I am  happy  to  state  that  we  have 
some  girls  in  some  lines  that  are  much  better  than  men,  and  are  paid 
splendid  wages. 

Q.  We  wish  to  get  at  statistics  now,  to  know  if  the  girl  is  equal  with 
the  man  in  earning  ability.  Whether  you  can  answer  that  question  off 
hand,  I don’t  know.  Maybe  you  can.  Take  a girl,  sa.y  5'ou  have 
five  hundred  girls  and  five  hundred  men  and  they  are  all  working  in  equal 
places,  would  the  sales  of  the  girls  equal  the  sales  of  the  men,  or  would 
they  have  the  ability  to  sell  as  much  goods  as  the  men?  You  ma3-  have 
men  selling  fine  Persian  rugs,  and  he  would,  of  course,  outsell  some  of 
the  girls  selling  ribbons,  but  take  that  girl  and  put  her  on  the  jewelry 
counter;  we  want  to  find  out  if  these  girls  are  as  good  saleswomen  as  the 
men  are.  A.  The  positions  for  the  women  are  largely  created  for  them 
to  fit  their  physical  condition. 

Q.  I understand  that.  A.  And  it  is  not  possible  to  expect  the  un- 
tiring efficiency  or  general  efficiency  in  a woman  that  j-ou  will  look  for  in 
a man. 

Q.  No,  you  cannot  use  a girl  as  you  would  a man.  A.  You  could 
not,  no. 

Q.  But  what  I was  trying  to  get  at — it  was  an  idea  of  mj-  own — was 


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761 


whether  the  girl  or  woman  was  equally  as  efficient  as  a man.  A.  In  a 
great  many  lines  they  are. 

Q.  Then,  if  you  put  that  man  right  in  her  line,  would  he  do  as  well 
as  she?  A.  I think  we  have  lines  in  our  business  where  women  are 
much  more  efficient  than  men  would  be  and  they  are  getting  the  salaries 
of  men  and  as  high  salaries  as  men  in  our  house.  For  instance,  you  take 
women  buyers. 

Q.  Put  this  man  that  is  more  efficient  in  his  line,  put  him  over  here 
in  the  girl’s  line,  would  he  do  as  well  as  the  girl  does,  or  you  may  reverse 
it — either  way?  A.  Well,  it  depends  on  the  line  entirely. 

Q.  In  other  words,  do  you  keep  an  account  of  the  sales  of  the  girls 
and  of  the  men,  and  the  profits  of  the  men  and  of  the  girls?  A.  We  keep 
an  audit  of  their  sales,  yes. 

Q.  Would  it  be  too  much  trouble  for  you  to  furnish  a tabulated 
account  of  that?  A.  I will  be  glad  to  furnish  you  anything  you  want. 

Q.  If  you  could  furnish  us  with  that,  we  will  be  pleased  to  have  it. 
A.  I will  be  very  glad  to  do  it.  Do  you  want  to  know  the  percentage 
and  the  earning  capacity  of  the  two  classes  on  the  same  kinds  of  goods? 

Q.  Yes,  take  your  average,  all  over  your  store;  so  far  as  your  judg- 
ment will  go.  A.  Of  course,  the  common  theory  always  is  that  a man 
must  be  fitted  to  assume  responsibility,  and  they  will  seek  positions  of 
responsibility. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I sat  in  a store  here  a few  weeks  ago,  my  wife 
was  up  here  buying  something,  and  I sat  there  waiting  for  her,  and  I 
' watched  the  men  and  the  women  clerks  waiting  on  customers,  and  what 
I saw  was  that  the  girls  were  flying  around  and  seemed  to  be  more  expert 
than  the  men  were;  the  men  seemed  a little  lazy,  but  the  girls  were  running 
'!  from  one  to  another,  and  they  were  flying  around  and  making  sales,  about 
two  sales  to  the  man’s  one.  I watched  them  there  about  an  hour.  I was 
looking  all  through  this  store  I was  at.  That  is  how  this  idea  came  into 
' my  head;  if  a woman  is  capable  of  selling  as  much  goods  as  a man  is,  I 
; think  she  ought  to  be  treated  the  same. 

MR.  BASCH:  You  will  find  that  she  is,  as  a rule.  We  have  women 
' who  go  to  Europe  for  us  at  a big  salary,  the  same  as  men. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Lehmann  told  us  of  a new  girl  they  sent 
east  with  one  of  their  buyers  to  buy  goods,  for  instruction,  but  there  was 
one  man  only  who  refused  to  give  us  any  answer.  I don’t  know  what  his 
reason  was.  I asked  him  question  after  question  and  he  refused  to  give 
I us  the  information.  I don’t  see  what  he  acted  that  way  for,  because  we 
i are  out  here  to  learn.  You  say  you  are  willing  to  give  us  those  tabulated 
reports? 

MR.  BASCH:  I will  be  very  glad  to.  I think  I can  frame  up  some- 
thing in  the  way  of  reports. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY : I would  like  your  opinion  about  this  vocational 
educational  bill;  that  is,  a little  in  line,  I believe,  with  what  you  testified 
before,  that  you  thought  that  home  training,  or  home  environment,  had 
more  to  do  with  the  immorality  of  girls  than  other  things.  Don’t  you 
think  that  this  vocational  education  will  prevent  the  boys  and  girls  from 
going  astray  and  give  them  a method  of  livelihood  to  occupy  their  minds? 

MR.  BASCH:  You  are  starting  them  out  with  an  ambition,  and  you 
bring  them  to  us  where  they  can  be  fitted  for  better  wages;  as  it  is  now, 
we  are  a school  for  them  to  give  them  an  education. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  believe  it  is  a fine  thing  for  a boy  or  a 
, girl  to  have  an  ambition?  A.  Yes,  yes;  that  is  true. 

Q.  We  all  have;  I believe  every  man  his  an  ambition  of  some  kind. 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  do  you  think  a man  could  harbor  a very  high  ambition  on 
an  empty  stomach?  A.  Governor,  the  empty  stomach  does  not  exist. 
Really  not.  Mr.  Robinson  testified  here  and  told  you  here  that  today  in 
the  city  of  Chicago  there  were  twenty  thousand  boys  and  girls  unem- 
ployed, without  any  inclination  or  any  ambition  to  do  anything.  That 


762 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


1 


vocational  school  will  wipe  that  all  out.  Apprenticeships  in  all  branches  i 
of  industry  will  wipe  that  all  out,  absolutely.  ' ' 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  In  the  minimum  wage  law  that  we  frame  we  ) 
would  have  to  take  into  account  the  apprentices.  ' 

MR.  BASCH:  Oh,  yes;  slcill  must  be  respected;  you  can’t  put  an  • 
unskilled  individual  on  a par  with  a skilled  person;  you  could  not  do  it;  v 
it  is  not  possible  to  do  it  and  it  is  not  fair;  it  would  be  unfair  business,  i 
I am  very  earnest  about  it.  You  could  not  do  that. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Wouldn’t  you  say  that  the  fair  position  for  ’ 
us  all  to  take  is  that  every  person  that  works  shall  get  in  return  for  his 
or  her  work  a living  wage? 

MR.  BASCH:  Absolutely,  in  return  for  work;  absolutely,  but  not  the 
shiftless,  the  idleness  of  the  forty  per  cent  of  them,  or  indifference. 

Q.  Let’s  see;  here  is  a girl  wTo  is  working  and  she  is  an  idle  girl; 

she  is  a lazy  girl;_  what  are  you  going  to  do  to  her?  A.  You  bring  her 

in  to  us  and  we  will  get  ginger  into  her  if  anybody  will. 

Q.  How  will  you  get  that  ginger  into  her?  A.  By  associating  with 
her  elements  who  are  ambitious,  but  not  by  association  with  out-of-door 
individuals. 

Q.  What  do  j^ou  mean  by  out-of-door  individuals?  A.  Oh,  meeting  ! 
persons  on  the  streets,  dance  halls  or  places  of  amusement,  or  certain  ( 
districts  with  so-called  playgrounds — I don’t  know  what  they  call  them. 

It  is  absolutely  true  that  we  have  a great  many  children  who  ought  to 
be  at  work. 

Q.  How  do  you  get  ginger  into  them?  I am  asking  this  for  informa-  ; 

tion,  because  we  have  heard  in  one  factorj',  not  in  the  city  of  Chicago.  ' 

where  they  got  ginger  into  them  by  grabbing  them  by  the  arms  until 
their  arms  were  black  and  blue.  That  is  how  they  got  ginger  into  them; 
it  was  by  physical  means.  Now,  we  want  to  hear  suggestions  of  another 
way,  possibly  an  entirely  correct  way.  Take  a girl  who  comes  to  your 
place,  is  naturally  lazy  and  you  want  to  make  a good  worker  out  of  her, 
what  is  your  way  of  getting  ginger  into  her?  A.  Those  who  apply  for 
work  are  generally  those  who  are  desirous  of  going  ahead,  and  that  is 
a very  gratifying  sign  of  ambition,  and  the  fewest  of  them,  the  very 
fewest  of  them,  fall  down;  those  who  do,  we  have  a school  that  is  operated 
by  some  of  our  superintendents.  W’e  have  very  able  women  who  are  in 
charge  of  that  work,  and  they  show  them  the  difference;  they  show  them 
the  other  side,  what  the  opportunities  are,  the  better  side,  the  side  of  the 
opportunities,  and  the  prospects;  the  prospects  the^^  put  them  to  upstairs. 
Some  of  the  girls  may  be  fitted  for  office  work,  others  for  the  selling  force; 
some  may  be  fitted  for  the  work  room  duties;  some  ma^-  not  be  fitted 
for  anything  we  have  for  them  at  all;  some  may  be  better  fitted  for  i 
household  work;  so  much  depends  on  the  judgment  of  the  individual,  as 
well  as  upon  the  judgment  of  the  concern,  to  direct  their  particular  abilin'. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Frankh',  iMr.  Basch,  is  it  not  3'our  opinion 
that,  as  a general  thing,  it  would  be  a hard  matter  to  get  ginger  into  i 
the  girl  who  was  not  receiving  enough  money  to  pay  for  her  living?  | 
A.  Well,  again.  Governor,  I must  say  that  the  not  enough  money  part  ? 
is  one  that  we  experience  rarely.  We  find  that  most  mothers  are  willing  ■ 
to  continue  their  furnishing  of  home  and  lodging  and  food  so  long  as 
they  have  to  be  an  apprentice  and  have  to  learn.  This  minimum  wage 
that  we  pay  to  girls,  beginners,  that  is  a very  desirable  income  for  the  : 
girl,  perhaps,  to  pay  for  the  necessary  clothes,  or  car-fare  or  her  lunch. 
They  are  often  contented  with  that  for  the  first  six  months,  perfectly 
contented. 

Q.  Let  us  see;  what  is  your  minimum  wage  paid  to  women,  iMr. 
Basch?  A.  We  haven’t  a girl  in  our  house  today  at  less  than — I don’t 
think — less  than  five  dollars;  that  is,  apprentices,  of  course. 

Mr.  Abraham  Harris’  Testimony. 

ABRAHAM  HARRIS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  committee, 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


763 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Give  the  reporter  your  name.  A.  Abraham 
Harris. 

Q.  And  your  business?  A.  Chicago  House  Wrecking  Company. 

Q.  You  are  president  of  that  company,  Mr.  Harris?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ  there?  A.  Four  hundred  and 
sixty. 

Q.  And  how  many  women?  A.  About  208. 

Q.  Do  the  women  do  practically  the  same  work  as  the  men?  A.  No. 

What  do  the  men  do?  A.  Well,  the  men  do  all  kinds  of  work; 
we  have  men  in  the  machine  shops,  structural  iron  workers,  men  in  the 
lumber  yard,  salesman,  and  the  women  are  working  in  the  office. 

Q.  They  are  office  women?  A.  Office  women,  stenographers,  and 
things  of  that  kind. 

Q.  You  have  no  women  in  a clerical  capacity?  A.  No. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  your  men?  A.  The  average 
wage  is  about  seventeen  dollars  and  a half. 

Q.  A week?  A.  A week. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  or  boy?  A.  We 
have  three  or  four  boys  around  the  offices,  about  five  dollars  a -week, 
I guess. 

Q.  That  is  the  lowest?  A.  Yes,  just  little  errand  boys. 

Q.  Leaving  the  boys  out  of  the  question,  what  is  the  lowest  wage 
paid  to  any  man?  A.  Two  dollars  a day. 

Q.  Does  that  mean  twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  Twelve  dollars  a 
week. 

Q.  That  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  in  your  employ  outside 
of  two  or  three  errand  boys?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  woman  in  your  employ? 
A.  Well,  we  have  a few  errand  girls  that  get  about  the  same  as  the 
errand  boys  get. 

Q.  They  get  about  five  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Aside  from  those  few  errand  girls,  what  is  the  lowest  wage  paid 
to  any  woman  in  your  employ?  A.  1 don’t  know;  the  lowest  would  be 
perhaps  seven  or  eight  dollars. 

Q.  Seven  or  eight  dollars  a week?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  most  of  the  men  in  your  employ  married  men?  A.  No,  I 
don’t  think  they  are;  I don’t  know. 

Q.  Have  you  a minimum  wage  that  you  pay  to  married  men? 
A.  Well,  I don’t  think  we  have;  no. 

Q.  You  never  have  made  any  classification  according  to  matrimonial 
ends?  A.  No,  we  don’t  classify  them;  it  is  all  on  ability. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  errand  boys,  you  have  paid  no  man  less  than 
twelve  dollars  a week?  A.  No. 

Q.  And  is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  on  that  two  dollars  a day 
he  can  support  himself  and  family?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  some  of  those  men,  to  your  knowledge,  support  families? 
A.  There  is  no  doubt  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  possible  for  a man  to  support  a wife  and  a 
child,  say  the  child  being  a girl  14  or  15  or  16  years  of  age,  upon  twelve 
dollars  a week,  in  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  Well,  it  is  done. 

Q.  Have  you,  from  your  own  observation,  ever  noticed  any  instance 
in  which  it  was  done?  A.  Well,  I can’t  recall  any,  no,  but  I surmise 
it  is  done;  there  is  no  doubt  of  it. 

Q.  You  could  not  tell  the  committee  how  a man  is  able  to  do  it, 
could  you?  A.  By  practicing  economy. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  Mr.  Harris,  that  girls  are  sometimes  forced  into 


764  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


the  business  world  because  of  the  inadequacy  of  the  wage  paid  the 
head  of  the  household,  the  father?  A.  I think  that  is  possible. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  or  is  it  not,  that  that  forcing  of  young  girls 
into  the  business  world  has  a harmful  effect  on  our  society  as  a whole, 
inasmuch  as  it  may  tend  to  break  up  the  home  life?  A.  I don’t  think  so! 

Q.  You  would  not  say  that  when  a girl  is  forced  into  the  business 
world,  because  of  the  inadequacy  of  the  wage  paid  the  father,  that  the 
girl  is  deprived  of  some  of  the  home  atmosphere?  A.  Well,  she  would 
be  deprived  of  some  of  that  home  atmosphere,  but  if  that  atmosphere 
is  present,  the  same  thing  would  occur  when  she  came  home  from  work, 
she  would  be  in  that  pleasant  atmosphere. 

Q.  You  would  say  as  a general  thing,  Mr.  Harris,  that  a girl  14  or  15 
years  of  age  who  is  forced,  we  will  say,  into  a factory,  or  into  a store, 
at  that  immature  age  is  in  as  wholesome  an  atmosphere  as  is  that  girl 
who  is  at  home  under  the  guidance  of  her  mother?  A.  Well,  I don’t 
know;  I would  not  say  anything  about  that;  I don’t  know;  I know  she 
would  be  in  our  employ. 

Q.  Have  you  any  girls  of  14  or  15  years  of  age  in  your  employ? 
A.  I don’t  know  the  ages  of  them;  I think  we  have  a few  little  girls 
there,  the  few  that  I mentioned.  I think  they  only  work,  perhaps,  during 
the  vacation  season;  they  get  a permit  to  work.  They  want  to  do  some- 
thing; they  are  ambitfous  to  do  something. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  TOSSEY. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  Do  you  think  the  law  of  supply  and  demand 
governs  the  price  of  female  labor  in  your  establishment?  A.  Well,  j^es, 
it  would  have  an  influence. 

Q.  It  would  largely  govern?  A.  Yes,  and  the  same  thing  applies 
to  labor  of  all  kinds. 

Q.  Some  of  the  witnesses  here  have  testified  that  they  did  not 
think  that  we  should  take  that  into  consideration  at  all,  and  some  of 
them  said  that  they  did.  A.  I know  there  are  times  that  we  can’t 
get  labor  and  we  have  to  pay  more  for  that  labor,  and  we  do  it. 

Mr.  Edward  J.  Lehmann’s  Testimony. 

EDWARD  J.  LEHMANN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edward  J.  Leh- 
mann. 

Q.  And  your  business?  Vice  President  of  The  Fair. 

Q.  How  many  men  do  you  employ,  Mr.  Lehmann?  A.  I don’t 
believe  I have  my  schedule  the  way  you  would  like  to  have  it,  Governor; 
I didn’t  know,  when  I came  over,  just  what  you  w'anted.  We  have  1,580 
altogether,  of  which  264  are  under  21  years  of  age. 

Q.  Of  the  1,316  over  21  years,  how  many  are  married  men?  A.  I 
haven’t  got  the  married  men  separated  at  all,  because  I could  not  get 
it  that  way. 

Q.  Have  you  a memorandum  showing  the  salaries  paid  the  married 
men?  A.  No,  but  it  is  understood  in  the  store  that  no  married  man  gets 
less  than  twelve  dollars  a week. 

Q.  That,  you  think,  is  based  upon  actual  figures  of  what  it  costs 
a man  to  live?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  it  is. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  pay  of  the  man  clerks?  A.  I could  not 
say,  but  I think  in  our  store  it  is  about — well,  in  the  neighborhood  of  six- 
teen or  seventeen  dollars,  because  we  work  most  of  our  man  clerks  on 
per  centage  basis.  I know  the  men  that  are  paid  on  the  per  centage  basis 
average  $18.06.  Our  total  average  for  men  over  21  is  17.36. 

Q.  How  many  men  go  to  make  up  that  average?  A.  One  thousand, 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


765 


three  hundred  sixteen;  I want  to  state  that  I have  omitted  32  men  here 
that  w-e  have  had,  that  I didn’t  put  in  that  average;  32  of  them  that 
average  eight  and  a half;  their  average  age  is  58  years  old.  They 
really  don’t  do  much  work;  they  watch  the  conveyors  that  the  boys  don’t 
jump  into  them,  or  slide  down.  They  are  most  of  them  cripples;  there 
are  32  of  them. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  those  men?  A.  Eight  dollars  and  a half. 

Q.  What  are  they,  pensioners,  largely?  A.  Pensioners;  they  don’t 
do  any  work;  they  come  and  go  when  they  want  to;  they  have  nothing 
to  do  only  watch  to  see  that  the  boys  don’t  jump  down  the  conveyors. 

Q.  Outside  of  those  men,  Mr.  Lehmann,  what  is  your  age  limit? 
A.  We  haven’t  any  age  limit. 

Q.  Isn’t  there  sort  of  an  unfixed  age  limit?  A.  Nothing  more 
than  if  a man  has  been  in  the  employ  of  any  store,  after  a certain  age, 
we  let  him  come  and  go  as  he  wants  to  and  pay  his  salary;  that  has 
been  the  rule  in  our  house;  we  haven’t^  any  age  limit  at  all.  If  a man 
has  been  in  our  employ  any  length  of  time,  we  always  take  care  of  him 
whether  he  comes  down  or  not;  in  fact,  a great  many  of  them,  we  would 
rather  they  would  not  come  down;  they  are  an  annoyance,  a hindrance 
more  than  they  are  a benefit,  although  their  salaries  go  on. 

Q.  Have  many  men  been  in  your  employ  quite  a time?  A.  I 
wouldn’t  say  how  long,  but  there  are  quite  a few  there  that  have  been 
there  quite  a number  of  years. 

Q.  Are  there  any  who  have  been  there  ten  or  fifteen  years  who  are 
getting  only  fifteen  or  sixteen  dollars  a week  now?  A.  I should  think 
there  would  be  possibly  a few  down  in  the  warehouse  or  shipping  de- 
partment. 

Q.  Take  a man  who  has  been  with  you  ten  or  fifteen  years,  and  he 
is  getting  fourteen  or  fifteen  dollars  a week — what  is  ahead  of  him? 
A.  There  is  really  not  anything  ahead  of  him,  because  a fellow  who  has 
been  there  ten  or  fifteen  years,  he  can’t  earn  more  than  ten  or  fifteen 
dollars,  he  has  not  got  it  in  him.  They  have  got  to  the  end  of  their 
capacity  at  that  price.  They  don’t  seem  to  keep  up  with  the  procession, 
or  go  ahead;  they  are  mostly  in  the  laboring  class.  They  are  more  what 
you  would  call  the  foreign  class,  the  lower  class;  more  in  the  laboring 
end  of  it.  It  is  the  individual’s  own  fault;  it  is  not  in  him  to  go  any 
further  ahead;  if  it  was  in  him  he  could  advance.  We  have  men,  as  I 
say,  that  started  in  at  six  dollars  a week,  that  are  getting  from  fifteen 
to  twenty  dollars,  fifteen  or  twenty  thousand  dollars  a year;  not  many 
of  them,  but  there  are  some. 

Q.  What  could  you  have  done  with  such  a man  when  he  entered 
the  store  fifteen  years  ago  that  would  have  made  him  worth  more  today? 
A.  Well,  I don’t  know;  I don’t  know  what  you  could  have  done  with 
him,  because  it  was  not  in  his  makeup  to  advance.  He  is  not  smart 
enough;  he  is  not  intelligent  enough. 

Q.  Would  vocational  education  have  helped  him?  A.  It  certainly 
would  have  in  his  younger  days;  he  would  have  been  a brighter  man;  it 
would  have  changed  his  environments  as  he  went  along,  but  he  kept 
down  in  the  lower  rut. 

Q.  Is  it  the  fact,  as  you  understand  it,  that  the  average  man  never 
gets  very  much  above  the  fourteen  or  fifteen-dollar  class?  A.  No,  I 
wouldn’t  say  that;  the  average  fellow,  did  you  say? 

Q.  Yes,  the  average  fellow.  A.  Why,  no,  I would  not  say  that;  I 
can  show  you  young  fellows  that  come  in  there  and  work  for  eight  or 
ten  dollars  a week  as  boys,  when  they  are  15  or  16  years  of  age,  and 
have  advanced  in  the  store;  then  they  have  left  our  store  and  got  into 
other  business,  and  gone  ahead,  and  I find  them  getting  a great  deal  of 
money,  different  places.  I find  that  there  is  a small  per  centage  of 
people  who  stay  at  one  fixed  salary  all  the  time. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  men  in  your  store?  A.  Seven- 
teen dollars  and  thirty-nine  cents. 

Q.  Then  when  I say  the  average  man  never  gets  very  much  above 
the  fourteen  or  fifteen-dollar  class.  I have  not  made  a mistake;  I have 


766 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


not  mis-stated  it,  according  to  your  figures.  A.  No.  i'ou  have  not  mis- 
stated it  in  that  way,  but  it  is  on  account  of  change  in  our  stores. 
Another  thing:  I don’t  suppose  there  is  enough  room  in  our  store  for 
a great  majority  to  go  ahead.  There  is  a limited  number  of  positions 
for  them,  which  would  naturally  keep  them  down. 

Q.  That  is  what  keeps  the  average  fellow  down  to  the  fourteen  or 
fifteen  or  sixteen-dollar  class?  A.  It  may  be  there  is  something  wrong 
with  the  fellow. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  a minimum  wage  law?  A.  I believe  in 
a minimum  wage  law  if  it  were  a national  law;  1 believe  if  it  were  in 
one  state  only,  I believe  it  would  hurt  all  the  business;  it  would  hurt 
the  state.  This  is  a question,  if  it  was  national  all  the  way  around,  would 
not  the  merchants  and  other  parties  raise  the  price  up  and  make  condi- 
tions almost  the  same? 

Q.  If  they  did,  do  you  think  there  would  come  in  connection  with 
that  minimum  wage  law,  a maximum  profit  law?  A.  I suppose  that 
is  what  it  would  result  in;  otherwise,  if  salaries  went  up,  merchants 
would  raise  their  prices  and  conditions  would  be  the  same. 

Q.  You  think  a national  minimum  wage  law  could  be  enacted 
without  working  an  injustice  on  the  consumer  and  without  the  enact- 
ment of  a maximum  profit  law?  A.  Well,  I can’t  sa3"  that;  it  might 
force  an  increase  in  prices  some,  but  possiblj^  it  might  be  so  infinitesimal 
as  not  to  be  changed  as  a whole.  I think  that  a minimum  wage  national 
law  might  work  out  all  right;  I begin  to  think  it  might,  but  I think  it 
would  have  a tendency  to  raise  prices;  the  competition  irt  department 
stores  is  so  keen,  if  we  raise  prices  individuallj',  we  don’t  get  the  busi- 
ness. We  spend  too  much  money  in  advertising,  and  if  we  did  not  get 
the  business  we  would  be  out  of  it. 

Q.  How  much  do  the  State  Street  stores  spend  in  advertising  in 
Chicago  newspapers?  A.  I think  that  the  eight  stores  on  State  Street 
in  the  last  j^ear  have  spent  something  like  two  million  and  a half  for 
advertising  purposes  in  the  daily  papers. 

Q.  Then  would  you  saj^  these  girls,  who  are  being  paid  small  salaries 
on  State  Street,  are  supporting  in  a verj-  great  sense,  the  newspapers 
in  the  city  of  Chicago?  WYll,  the  question  is,  if  we  don’t  give  it  to 

the  newspapers,  whether  we  won’t  have  to  give  it  to  something  else  in 
order  to  get  the  women  down  to  buy  the  stuff. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  In  other  words,  what  30U  have  to  pa^-  the 
girls  is  controlled  by  the  law  of  supply  and  demand  largely? 

MR.  LEHMANN:  By  the  law  of  supph'  and  demand,  yes — in  a 
way;  now,  if  we  had  our  full  quota  of  help  for  The  Fair,  and  there  were 
10,000  people  outside  looking  for  employment,  we  would  not  discharge 
those  girls  in  order  to  hire  other  girls  at  a lesser  price,  and  if  we  need 
a lot  of  girls,  we  can’t  get  them,  and  we  naturalh'  have  to  pa^-  an\-  price 
they  demand,  so  naturally,  it  is  a question  of  supply  and  demand. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  It  would  cut  down  the  wages,  too,  if  the 
supply  was  more  than  the  demand? 

MR.  LEHMANN:  Yes,  I think  so. 

SENATOR  TOSSEY:  I mean  employers  generally. 

MR.  LEHMANN:  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  30U  think  there  has  been  an  increase 
in  wages  paid  the  girls  in  rmur  store  and  other  similar  stores  in  the  last 
few  months? 

MR.  LEHMANN:  Well,  to  be  truthful,  I should  not  think  but  what 
there  is  a change;  I think  the  agitation  has  been  causing  the  girls  to 
demand  more  money,  and  to  get  it. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Are  you  paying  more  money  in  your  store? 

MR.  LEHMANN:  I suppose  the  average  holds  .good  as  to  us.  In 
fact,  we  have  a hard  time  to  get  help  all  the  time.  \ ou  take  the  cheaper 
stores — what  I mean  by  cheaper  stores,  the  popular  priced  store — in  the 
way  of  help,  the  popular-priced  stores  are  equipped  with  girls,  appren- 
tices, teaching  them  all  thej"^  know,  and  when  the^’  get  a certain  knowledge 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


767 


they  iuimediatel)"  go  down  to  the  higher-priced  stores,  not  that  they  send 
tor  them  or  that  they  get  any  more  money  at  all,  but  it  seems  to  be  imbued 
into  the  girls  that  they  would  rather  work  for  Marshall  Field  or  Carson, 
Pirie  Scott  & Company  than  for  us,  and  they  all  leave  The  Fair  and  go 
down  there,  so  that  the  popular-priced  stores  are  all  the  time  a kinder- 
garten for  the  other  end  of  the  street,  as  we  call  it.  That  is  what  makes 
■the  popular-priced  store  a pretty  hard  proposition  on  beginners,  and 
that  is  why  it  shows  our  average  female  help  is  paid  lower  than  the  others. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  Mr.  Lehmann,  that  many  girls  sacrifice  money  for 
the  sake  of  working  for  what  they  consider  the  higher  class  stores? 

,A.  They  would  not  sacrifice  anything  so  far  as  the  salary  goes. 

I EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

I SENATOR  BEALL:  How  many  girls  have  you  employed  there? 

I could  not  say,  I don’t  remember,  but  I think  it  is  approximately 

seventeen  hundred. 

Q.  They  are  about  even  up?  A.  Well,  not  quite, 
j Q.  Just  approximately?  A.  I think  they  are  about  the  same.  If 

we  have  seventeen  hundred  girls,  we  have  fifteen  hundred  and  eighty  men. 

Q.  How  do  they  compare  in  ability  in  salesmanship?  A.  That  is 
:a  difficult  question. 

■ Q.  We  are  trying  to  get  up  some  tabulated  statistics  on  that. 

A.  Women  work  in  different  departments;  take  in  certain  departments, 
the  men  will  sell  more  than  the  women,  but  that  is  because  the  merchan- 
dise brings  more  money. 

Q.  Suppose  they  are  both  equal,  both  have  an  equal  chance?  A.  If 

you  put  them  in  the  same  department,  where  the  sales  are  about  the  same 
amount  of  everything? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Oh,  I think  as  a whole  the  man  might  be  a little 
better  salesman,  because  they  can  stand  the  grind  better. 

] Q.  You  are  at  The  Fair?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  any  data  of  the  sales  of  the  girls  and  men?  A.  Yes. 

I Q.  Do  you  believe  that  you  can  furnish  a statement?  We  would 

[like  it  to  publish,  to  see  how  they  would  compare.  A.  I don’t  believe 
ithat  would  give  you  much  information,  because  the  girl  will  average  far 
;more  sales  than  the  man,  because  they  are  in  departments  where  the 
Isales  are  smaller,  while  the  men  are  in  the  larger  departments. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  sales  of  the  girls  will  run  much  smaller  than 
jjthose  of  the  men?  A.  Yes. 

" Q.  In  other  words,  the  girls  will  make  more  sales,  but  the  amounts 

[iare  smaller?  A.  That  is  the  idea. 

I Whereupon  an  adjournment  was  taken  until  ten  o’clock  A.  M. 
the  following  day,  Saturday,  June  7th,  A.  D.  1913. 


■ ■ '•  "r"z  svfiSi 

SESSION  XXV rn.- 

. rio  - :0 

I Presidents  of  two  universities  discuss  actual  cash  value  of  com- 

plete college  training  for  young  men  and  women  as  demonstrated 
in  the  earnings  of  graduates,  and  the  importance  of  vocational  edu- 
cation and  practical  training  for  children  before  graduation  from 
I the  public  schools.  Bank  officer  gives  his  views.  General  manager 

! of  traction  lines  considers  $1,100  a year  reasonable  allowance  to 

i cover  living  expenses  of  a family  of  five.  Testimony  of: 

Prof.  Harry  Pratt  Judson,  president,  University  of  Chicago; 

Mr.  William  T.  Abbott,  vice  president.  Central  Trust  Com- 
pany of  Illinois; 

j|  Mr.  Abraham  W.  Harris,  president.  Northwestern  University; 

; Mr.  Leonard  A.  Busby,  general  manager,  Chicago  City  Rail- 

way. 

|.  Chicago,  Illinois,  June  7,  1913,  10:00  A.  M.,  Hotel  LaSalle. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment.  Chairman  O’Hara 
j and  Senator  Beall  being  present;  Senators  Woodard  and  Tossey  being 
■ absent  on  account  of  sickness  in  their  families ; Senator  Harris  being 
; present,  representing  Senator  Tosseyi 

Prof.  Harry  Pratt  Judson’s  Testimony. 

HARRY  PRATT  JL^DSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Com- 
» mittee,  being  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O.’Hara,  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

i 

!'  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  give  us  your  name,  please?  A. 
i Harry  Pratt  Judson. 

j Q.  Your  occupation,  Doctor?  A.  Teaching  in  the  schools. 

Q.  You  are  connected  with  what  institution?  A.  With  the  Uni- 
versity of  Chicago. 

o Q.  You  are  president  of  the  University  of  Chicago?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Doctor,  what  is  the  average  age  of  your  male  graduates?  A. 
Well,  that  I can’t  answer,  for  the  reason  that  we  have  so  many  different 
branches  in  the  university;  those  that  graduate  from  the  college,  I fancy 
to  be  between  23  and  24;  those  that  graduate  from  the  law  school,  three 
or  four  years  later  than  that,  and  from  the  other  professional  schools 
-three  or  four  years  later  than  that. 

Q.  Those  graduating  from  the  colleges  average  about  what  age?  A. 
i Twenty-three  to  twenty-four  years  of  age;  approximately  twenty-three,  I 
! should  say. 

I Q.  How'  many  do  you  annually  graduate  from  the  colleges?  A.  I 

li  don’t  know  exactly;  I did  not  know  exactly  what  you  wanted  when  I 
j came  here;  if  I had  known  that  I could  have  brought  the  exact  figures  with 
I me.  We  will  graduate,  I think,  about  four  hundred  from  the  colleges  this 
j year. 

;l  Q.  That  is  a fair  average,  is  it.  Doctor?  A.  Yes,  something  like 

j that. 

I Q.  Do  you  follow  up  your  graduates;  have  you  any  system  of 

I records?  A.  No,  not  exactly,  other  than  those  of  teachers.  They  file 
I their  names  with  us  and  we  follow  them  up.  We  haven’t  any  method 
I of  following  them  up,  but  we  know  more  or  less  about  them. 

I Q.  From  the  knowledge  you  may  have  of  your  graduates,  after  they 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


leave  your  school,  what  can  you  tell  the  Committee  as  to  what  happens 
to  them?  A.  _A  great  variety  of  things;  they  are  all  engaged  in  some 
useful  occupation;  many  in  professions,  some  in  law,  and  some  in  busi- 
ness. Of  the  young  men,  a considerable  majority  of  them  are  engaged 
in  business  occupations.  We  graduate  many  women;  some  of  them 
ultimately  marry,  you  know. 

Q.  Most  of  them  marry?  A.  Yes,  but  we  have  no  exact  figures 
on  that. 

Q.  The  young  man  leaving  the  college  after  graduation  entering  busi- 
ness, as  a rule  how  much  money  is  he  able  to  command?  A.  That  I 
could  not  answer,  the  conditions  are  so  variable;  there  are  all  kinds  of 
businesses.  I have  no  data  under  that  heading. 

Q.  How  many  years  would  you  say  elapse  after  graduation  before 
the  average  graduate  is  in  position  to  marry  and  support  a family?  A. 
That  varies,  but  it  is  a very  short  time  as  a rule.  I hear  from  my  young 
men  very  often,  and  they  usually  marry  within  two  or  three  years,  some- 
times later;  but  I think  the  most  of  them  are  in  position  to  do  that  if 
they  wish  to  do  that,  in  that  time,  two  or  three  years. 

Q.  You  would  say  that  the  young  man  who  goes  through  a univer- 
sity, such  as  Chicago,  and  who  graduates  between  the  ages  of  23  and  24, 
is  generally  in  a position  to  marry  and  support  a family  by  the  time  he 
reaches  the  age  of  25  or  26?  A.  Oh,  yes,  yes,  and  sometimes  before  that. 

Q.  You  are  in  favor.  Doctor,  of  shortening  the  college  course?  A. 
Yes,  and  also  the  school  course;  I think  there  is  too  much  time  spent  in 
the  preparatory  schools — needlessly  spent.  I don’t  mean  to  say  that  the 
time  is  wasted;  any  of  that  is  of  benefit,  but  more  time  than  is  necessary. 

Q.  What  is  the  age  at  which  you  believe  a young  man  should  go  into 
active  life?  A.  I think  that  the  average  young  man  should  take  his 
college  degree  by  the  time  he  is  20  or  21;  it  will  take  him  after  that,  if  he 
is  going  into  law  or  medicine,  three  or  four  years  before  he  will  be  able 
to  earn  a competence;  if  he  is  going  into  business,  he  will  enter  imme- 
diately, but  if  a man  is  going  into  the  legal  or  medical  profession,  through 
legal  or  medical  schools,  he  ought  to  begin  his  practice  by  the  time  he  is 
25.  By  that  time  a young  man  who  graduates  in  the  colleges  and  goes 
into  business  ought  to  be  pretty  well  established  in  business. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion.  Doctor,  that  the  shortening  of  the  course  of 
education  so  that  the  young  man  can  enter  active  business  life  at  20  or  21, 
or  a professional  life  at  25,  would  aid  in  solving  the  present  industrial 
situation?  A.  To  a certain  extent  I think  it  would,  because  it  would  tend 
to  earlier  efficiency,  and  the  core  of  the  whole  question  is  efficiency;  of 
course,  you  understand,  we  theorize  on  the  lines  of  efficiency.  I think  in 
the  school  life  of  a person  at  the  present  time,  too  man3r  j^ears  are  spent 
in  the  elementary  schools;  that  is,  in  the  eight  grades.  No  matter  what 
we  teach  these  children  in  former  school  life,  they  want  to  be  happj^  and 
healthy  and  use  their  hands,  and  then  they  want  to  forget  about  half  of 
what  we  are  teaching  them;  I think  that  can  be  done  in  less  than  eight 
years. 

Q.  How  many  years  would  you  say?  A.  We  have  an  elementary 
school  in  connection  with  our  department  of  education,  and  we  find  that 
they  have  been  able  to  do  it  in  seven  years;  children  are  just  as  high  up 
in  their  high  school  work  after  getting  through  on  seven  instead  of 
eight,  and  I think  the  time  will  shortly  come  when  it  will  be  done  in  six. 

Q.  Would  you  shorten  the  high  school  course?  A.  Not  in  j-ears. 
I think  the  high  schools  are  teaching  too  many  things;  they  fritter  away 
their  time  on  too  many  things.  Then  I think  the  first  year  of  college 
course  is  unnecessary.  It  is  a part  of  the  high  school  work.  I would  say 
the  high  school,  four  years,  devoted  to  more  intensive  study;  and  shorten 
the  real  college  work  to  three  years;  cut  off  the  first  y-ear  as  being  a 
useless  repetition  of  the  high  school  work.  I believe  in  time  that  things 
will  justify  this. 

Q.  You  would  change  the  course  of  studies  in  high  school?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  would  you  change  the  high  school  course.  Doctor?  A.  By 
merely  having  any  given  student  study  fewer  things.  What  I have  in 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


771 


mind  is  this:  it  is  not  enough  to  go  over  a certain  thing;  you  haven’t 
mastered  anything  at  all  when  you  have  gone  over  it;  it  will  not  do  to 
[Stop  it  until  it  is  a matter  of  habit  to  him;  that  is  the  only  way  to  accom- 
plish, is  to  take  fewer  studies  and  pursue  those  studies  a greater  length  of 
time. 

Q.  Concerning  vocational  legislation,  have  you  any  opinion  to  offer 
this  Committee?  A.  I think  that  is  one  of  the  most  important  things 
that  we  have  before  us  today,  and  it  has  a very  important  bearing  on  our 
colleges  and  our  schools  and  on  the  efficiency  of  our  industrial  life. 

I Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  measure  known  as  the  Cooley  Bill?  A. 
I suppose  I am;  at  all  events,  I have  heard  about  them  when  they  were 
introduced. 

Q.  Have  you  any  opinion  to  express  to  the  Committee  concerning 
the  Cooley  Bill  or  any  other  bill  on  vocational  education?  A.  I prefer 
jnot  to  express  an  opinion  about  any  one  of  those  particular  bills,  ex- 
Icept  in  a general  way.  First,  I think  that  all  of  the  bills  contain  merito- 
rious things;  second,  the  difference  is  in  theory  rather  than  in  practice. 
My  hope  is  that  the  General  Assembly  will  see  its  way  clear  to  give  us 
ja  bill  which  is  best  adapted  to  this  state.  I would  rather  put  it  that 
way  than  to  offer  any  one  bill.  It  is  more  important  that  you  have  a 
ibill  instead  of  any  one  particular  bill. 

Q.  Some  persons  have  expressed  the  fear  that  vocational  training 
'will  result  in  the  establishment  of  classes  in  this  country?  A.  Of  classes? 

Q.  That  carpenters  would  bring  up  their  children  as  carpenters,  a 
igood  deal  as  the  English  system  is;  now,  do  you  consider  that  fear  well 
founded?  A.  I do  not.  I do  not  think  that  is  well  founded.  My  ob- 
fservation  is  that  whatever  a man  does  he  usually  wants  his  boy  to  do 

! something  else.  If  a man  is  a carpenter,  he  is  more  likely  to  educate  his 
boy  as  a stone  mason.  I don’t  believe  that  that  follows  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  as  to  the  cost  of  living  in  the  city  of  Chicago; 
ithat  is,  the  cost  to  the  head  of  the  family  to  support  a family,  say  of  three, 
lin  the  city  of  Chicago?  A.  No,  no,  I haven’t  any  adequate  knowledge 
on  that  subject;  it  depends  on  an  infinite  multiplicity  of  certain  circum- 
[stances.  I don’t  see  how  you  can  estimate  it;  T don’t  know. 

Q.  Senator  Harris  suggested  that  you  may  have  some  opinion  as  to 
(the  average  cost  of  the  student  going  through  the  University  of  Chicago? 
A.  Yes,  I have  some  data  on  that,  Governor.  I have  a theory,  of  course. 

Q.  What,  is  that  theory?  A.  A student  may  spend  more  or  less, 
according  to  his  or  her  habits  and  according  to  whether  he  or  she  is 
.economical  or  extravagant.  A young  man  was  telling  me  the  other  day, 
.only  yesterday  (I  was  talking  with  him  on  that  very  subject),  that  a boy 
[could  go  through  the  colleges  comfortably  on  four  or  five  hundred  dollars 
a year,  but  that  required  economy. 


i Q.  That  is  a school  year  of  nine  months?  A.  Yes,  and  I want 
|to  say  in  that  connection  that  a great  many  of  our  young  men  earn  their 
own  way,  either  in  whole  or  in  part,  a great  number. 

Q.  In  that  connection  would  you  say.  Doctor,  that  it  is  possible  for 
any  young  man,  without  any  means,  to  come  to  Chicago  and  go  through 
,the  University  of  Chicago  without  outside  help?  A.  Without  outside 
jhelp?  Do  you  mean  other  than  his  own  activities? 

j Q.  Yes;  can  the  average  young  man  do  that?  A.  It  requires  ex- 
ceptional energy,  possibly,  and  ambition,  but  not  exceptional  abilities  in  a 
man  who  really  wants  to  do  it.  I know  a little  about  that;  I began  sup- 
porting myself  when  I was  fourteen;  I didn’t  cost  my  father  anything 
after  that,  and  I know  it  required  hard  work  and  plenty  of  it,  and  self- 
jdenial.  That  is,  I didn’t  have  the  pleasures  that  boys  usually  want. 

Q.  You  say,  Doctor,  that  some  of  your  students  find  that  they  can 
support  themselves  for  nine  months  and  go  through  the  University  on  four 
’or  five  hundred  dollars,  and  yet  that  requires  economy?  A.  Oh,  yes. 

Q.  This  Committee  has  learned  of  some  married  men  in  Chicago 
who  receive  only  twelve  dollars  a week;  that  is  less  money  than  a student 
liat  the  University  of  Chicago  spends  to  support  himself?  A.  Yes. 


772  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Would  you  say  that  the  payment  of  that  twelve  dollars  a wee! 
to  the  head  of  a household  could  be  described  as  inadequacy  of  wage'. 
A.  Why,  that  depends  entirely  on  the  point  of  view;  it  depends  on  wha' 
the  man  earns.  It  might  be  adequate  to  support  his  family,  and  it  mighi 
be  an  adequate  wage  because  he  does  not  earn  any  more. 

Q.  Viewing  it  from  the  particular  viewpoint  of  the  family?  A.  Tha' 
would  not  be  a question  of  wage;  it  would  be  a question  of  income;  i' 
would  be  inadequate  to  the  support  of  his  family,  I should  think.  Lei 
me  say  that  this  same  student  at  the  University  of  Chicago  pays  a tui- 
tion fee  of  $120  a year,  which  you  have  to  pay  out  of  that,  which  wouk 
leave  him  $380. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  this  inadequacy  of  income  might  resul 
in  either  a mental  or  moral  handicap  to  members  of  the  family?  A 
It  might  so  result;  on  the  other  hand,  it  might  be  the  cause  of  its  work- 
ing both  ways.  What  I mean  is,  the  laborer  himself  might  have  such  i 
mental  or  moral  handicap  as  to  be  not  worth  more;  it  always  reacts 
on  the  family.  Of  course,  it  must  have  some  result,  yes. 

Q.  Now,  because  of  that  inadequacy  of  income,  is  it  not  a fail 
presumption  that  the  members  of  the  family  would  be  forced  out  intc 
the  industrial  w'orld  at  an  early  age — say  at  fourteen  or  fifteen  years  o 
age?  A.  Probably. 

Q.  And  at  that  age,  they  would  be  not  as  well  prepared  to  battk 
with  the  world  as  possibly  the  girls  who  go  through  j'our  universit}^?  A • 
Oh,  certainly  not,  although  I am  a little  handicapped  in  answering  tha' 
because  I began  at  that  age  myself,  to  battle  with  the  world  withou' 
help. 

Q.  But  your  case  probably  would  be  an  exception  rather  than  the 
average  case.  Doctor?  A.  Oh,  I don’t  know;  not  a bit;  in  that  day  1 

knew  a great  many  of  my  fellows  who  did  the  same  thing. 

Q.  Now,  if  a girl  of  fourteen  j-ears  of  age  is  forced  out  into  the 
industrial  world  because  of  the  inadequacy  of  income  received  by  the  heae 
of  the  household,  would  that  girl  in  a sense,  being  forced  into  the 
business  world,  become  a competitor  with  the  man  worker?  A.  It  de 
pends  upon  the  vocation.  That  might  be  the  case,  of  course;  and  ii 
some  cases  it  is  the  case.  In  some  cases  she  might  be  called  upon  tc 
compete  with  man  workers,  and  in  other  cases,  she  would  not  be  callec 
upon  at  all,  so  it  is  only  partially  true;  largely  true,  I would  say. 

Q.  Take  in  a factory  running  with  machinery,  in  that  case  the  com 

petition  would  be  there?  A.  It  depends  on  the  machinery;^  there  art 
machines  that  can  be  run  by  a younger  person  without  the  intelligence 
and  without  the  physical  force  of  an  older  person,  and  they  would  no' 
be  apt  to  call  on  this  older  person  anyway;  it  might  be,  of  course,  no 
exactly  the  occupation  of  a man.  Therefore,  she  might  come  in  compe 
tition,  and  she  might  not  come  in  competition,  with  the  man. 

Q.  If,  however,  that  girl  or  woman  w^ere  paid  a wage  smaller  thar 
a man  could  live  on  and  upon  which  a man  could  support  a family,  i 
might  be  an  excuse  to  the  employer  not  to  pav  an  adequate  wage  to  thi 
head  of  the  household,  or  to  the  man?  A.  Possibly. 

Q.  Following  this  line  of  reasoning,  is  it  not  your  opinion  that  in 
adequacy  of  income  creates  an  industrial  circle:  the  head  of  the  house 
hold  is  paid  an  inadeauacy  of  income  and  the  girl  is  forced  into  the  work, 
because  of  tha,t  inadequacy  of  income  paid  to  the  head  of  the  family 
and  she  in  turn  becomes  a competitor  of  other  men,  keeping  down  thei: 
Avages,  so  that  their  children  are  forced  out  into  the  Avorld  under  th( 
same  circumstances?  A.  That  might  be  true.  Of  course,  that  is  a ver} 
complicated  Question  and  I would  not  want  to  answer  it  without  study 
so  that  I could  give  an  intelligent  ansAver. 

Q.  If  the  thought  Ave  have  been  pursuing  be  correct  in  a genera 
Avay,  does  it  not  folloAV  that  the  oayment  to  the  man  of  a Avage  that  con 
stitutes  inadequacy  of  income  is  harmful  to  society  as  a Avhole,  and  there 
fore  a proper  subiect  for  regulation  by  the  state?  A.  ^\  ell,  it  deoend 
on  different  considerations.  He  ought  to  be  paid  AA'hat  he  earns.  Ther' 
are  two  totally  different  bases  upon  Avhich  payment  for  Avork  may  b' 


> Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  773 

based.  First,  on  what  a man  earns,  on  his  efficiency,  and  his  ^efficiency 
■may  not  be  equal  to  earning  enough  to  support  the  family. 

Q.  Then  would  you  say.  Doctor,  that  the  state,  realizing  that  a man 
should  be  paid  according  to  his  efficiency,  should  provide  that  the  mini- 
!mum  of  efficiency  should  receive  as  a minimum  wage,  a living?  A.  I don’t 
fthink  that  is  necessary.  Governor;  as  1 look  at  it,  if  you  will  allow  me  to 
[state. 

' Q.  Surely;  we  want  your  opinion.  A.  This  question,  as  I look  at 
lit,  is  rather  efficiency  before  anything  else  by  people  who  work  with 
their  heads  or  hands  or  both,  people  who  belong  to  three  grades:  those 
iwho  are  efficient,  those  who  are  semi-efficient,  and  those  who  are  inefficient. 
iNow,  the  people  who  are  efficient,  there  is  no  trouble  about  their  earnings, 
df  they  are  really  efficient  and  ambitious,  they  can  create  enough  wealth 
^so  that  their  situation  in  the  world  is  secure;  they  can  earn  far  more 
than  any  minimum  that  the  law  will  fix;  those  are  the  efficient  people. 
'When  you  come  to  the  semi-efficient  people,  of  whom  there  are  a great 
many,  that  is  another  question;  they  may  or  may  not  be  able  to  support 
I a family;  they  may  or  may  not  be  able  to  earn  enough  to  support  a 
'family,  and  no  law  can  make  them  any  different.  Now,  when  you  come 
'to  the  inefficient  people,  there  you  come  to  the  great  mass  of  people  who 
are  down  and  out;  tramps,  and  such.  My  theory  is  that  much  crime  of 
the  world  is  recruited  from  this  class.  The  efficient  people  will  take  care 
of  themselves.  As  to  the  semi-efficient  people,  what  we  need  is  aid  in 
various  ways  to  make  them  more  efficient,  to  transfer  them  to  the  other 
class.  Such  work  as  this  industrial  education,  as  you  have  it  in  mind, 
is  one  of  those  many  agencies  which  might  reduce  it  to  that  effect. 

Q.  Doctor,  the  law  presumes  that  anything  tending  to  decrease  mar- 
riage is  against  public  policy,  as  I understand  it;  is  that  your  understand- 
ing? A.  As  a whole,  yes. 

Q.  Then  an  industrial  system  that  makes  it  impracticable  for  any 
considerable  number  of  our  male  citizens  to  marry  is  against  public  policy? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Following  that  line  of  reasoning.  Doctor,  again  may  I ask  if  the 
State  is  not  justified  in  decreeing  that  the  minimum  of  efficiency  shall 
always  command  the  minimum  of  a family  living?  A.  I don’t  think  so; 
I think  that  is  a matter  for  the  national  laws  to  remedy. 

Q.  If  because  of  inadequacy  of  wage,  men  are  not  able  to  marry, 
does  that  contribute  to  the  immorality  of  the  community?  A.  Probably 
. it  does. 

Q.  In  that  manner,  inadequacy  of  income  would  have  a connec- 
j tion  with  the  general  immorality  of  the  community?  A.  Yes,  I would 
I say  inadequacy  of  efficiency,  which  is  the  cause  of  the  other. 

I Q.  Doctor,  I should  like  to  ask  what  is  the  basis  of  the  money  value 

! of  the  individual’s  industrial  efficiency?  A.  The  amount  of  wealth  he 
can  create,  the  potential  wealth,  business  activity. 

' Q.  The  man  who  is  working  for  another — what  determines  his  in- 
I dustrial  value  in  money?  A.  The  amount  of  product,  business  product 
that  his  work  will  create. 

IQ.  If  a man  is  working  for  a factory — is  making  boxes,  we  will  say — 
the  value  of  his  work  would  be  dependent,  would  it  not,  upon  the  profit 
made  by  the  factory  or  the  employer?  A.  On  the  business  products.  Of 
course,  they  don’t  realize  the  profits  they  expect  to  make;  nevertheless, 

I a man  should  get  compensation  for  his  work;  he  does  not  share  in  the 
I risks  wholly  of  the  business;  the  employers  do. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  a law  providing  a maximum  of  profit?  A.  I do. 

' EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  Doctor,  you  brought  out  a point  in  your  testimony  that  Vve  have 
had  a great  controversy  about.  In  the  place  that  I am  from,  Alton,  in 
our  high  school  there  they  have  devoted  the  last  two  years  of  school  to 
the  students,  preparing  them  for  college,  when  not  probably  to  exceed 
five  or  ten  per  cent  of  our  high  school  graduates  ever  go  to  college.  They 


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I 


liave  to  go  to  work.  And  many  of  the  people  there  in  town  have  taken 
their  sons  out  of  the  high  school  and  have  sent  them  down  to  St.  Louis 
to  a business  college  to  learn  business.  There  are  very  few  of  our 
men,  business  men  and  manufacturers,  who  are  college  men.  When  we 
opened  up  here,  on  one  of  our  former  occasions,  we  heard  these  State 
street  merchants,  and  1 do  not  believe  that  there  is  one  of  them  that 
ever  graduated  at  any  college,  and  some  never  got  above  the  eighth  grade. 
When  1 was  mayor,  this  question  came  up,  and  we  had  quite  a con- 
troversy about  it,  and  1 would  like  to  ask  your  opinion  on  it.  In  your 
judgment,  do  you  think  it  is  a good  thing  to  give  the  last  two  years  of 
high  school  work  to  preparatory  work  for  college?  A.  I think  that  any 
boy  who  has  been  through  a good  high  school,  well  taught,  is  prepared 
for  and  should  be  admitted  to  college  anyway. 

Q.  Most  of  the  colleges,  or  a good  many  of  them  throughout  the 
country,  won’t  take  them  in  unless  they  are  prepared  for  college.  A. 
Some  of  the  colleges  won’t  admit  them;  many  will.  However,  the  in- 
creasing tendency  is  to  admit  any  student  who  is  w'ell  informed.  Do  you 
mean  whether  it  is  good  policy  to  give  two  years  of  preparation  in  high 
school  for  college? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I should  say  no.  Incidentally  you  mean  to  htting  boys 
for  going  higher — for  going  on  if  they  want  to  do  it,  but  that  is  an  inci- 
dent of  a secondary  nature,  not  primarily. 

Q.  That  is  the  point.  I thought  that  seven  years  was  long  enough 
for  a boy  to  go;  I know  that  a great  many  have  been  taken  out  of  our 
high  school  in  the  last  two  years.  A.  I know  what  you  mean;  1 don’t 
w'ant  to  take  your  time  any  longer. 

Q.  Well,  we  are  here  to  learn.  A.  I will  answer  your  question  by 
saying  this,  in  regard  to  the  high  schools  in  Chicago:  a very  large  per- 
centage of  the  boys  who  enter  the  Chicago  high  schools  do  not  attend 
them  over  a year,  or  two  years  at  most,  and  then  they  drop  out.  They 
don’t  drop  out  on  account  of  poverty,  but  because  they  don’t  want  to 
be  bothered  by  school;  they  want  to  be  earning  money.  A very  small 

percentage,  not  over  ten  per  cent  (my  figures  may  not  be  entirely  accu- 

rate), ever  graduate  from  college.  In  the  Crane  Technical  High  School 
the  boys — a large  proportion  of  them  (perhaps  more  than  three-fourths) — 
go  through  and  graduate;  I think  that  answers  y'our  question.  Senator. 

Q.  Yes,  that  is  a question  that  has  bothered  me  for  a long  while.  I 
had  it  argued  to  me  when  I was  mayor,  and  the  people  were  divided 
in  their  opinion.  They  said  that  the  boys,  there  was  no  use  of  taking 

them  out  of  high  school,  to  let  them  go  two  years  and  then  take  them 

out  and  let  them  go  to  some  business  college  and  learn  common,  every^-day 
business  transactions;  that  is  your  idea?  A.  Yes,  j'es,  common,  every- 
day business  transactions  ought  to  be  a part  of  the  high  school  course. 

Q.  All  we  had  was  Green’s  spelling  book  when  I was  a boy.  A. 
Well,  you  learned  a lot  out  of  that;  I never  got  to  go  to  school  but  two 
years.  I presume  I would  have  gone  longer  onlj^  I escaped  from  the 
teachers. 

Q.  Now,  you  take  the  difference  in  schools  now  and  when  you  and  I 
were  boys,  and  the  different  kind  ,of  teachers  they  have,  and  the  expense 
it  is  to  keep  and  maintain  those  schools,  on  the  people  and  on  the  state?  A. 
It  is  enormous. 

Q.  Now,  I want  to  ask  you  another  question:  Where  I live,  at  Alton, 
we  have  the  oldest  college,  I guess,  in  the  West;  the  McKendry'  College, 
down  at  Lebanon,  is  another  one.  Those  colleges  can’t  exist,  simply 
because  they  can’t  hire  the  faculty;  it  has  broken  up  our  small  colleges  be- 
cause they  go  to  the  university;  how  does  the  university  conflict  with  your 
institution?  A:  I will  answer  that  question  by  going  back.  M’hen  our 
institution  was  founded,  some  twenty-  odd  y-ears  ago,  there  was  some  ap- 
prehension in  the  educational  world  that  a large  educational  institution 
might  affect  injuriously  our  neighboring  state  universities.  We  did  not 
believe  it,  and  the  point  of  fact  is  that,  insteading  of  injuring  them,  it 
benefited  every  one  of  them  in  this  way-.  Of  course,  in  the  first  place,  it 
was  an  incentive  to  them  to  do  better  by-  the  state  institutions;  and,  second, 


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775 


the  legislature  did  better  by  the  state  university  than  in  any  other  twenty 
years  before  that.  But  beyond  that,  it  has  spread  the  idea  of  university 
education  more  and  more  throughout  the  country.  If  a boy  comes  to  some 
university  from  some  small  town,  all  of  his  friends  learn  about  it,  and  they 
get  a desire  to  go  to  some  university;  and  where  one  boy  will  come  to 
us,  maybe  other  boys  will  go  to  Illinois  or  Wisconsin,  or  Michigan  Uni- 
versity, where  they  would  not  have  gone  otherwise;  so,  you  see,  the  in- 
fluence was  helpful  and  not  hurtful. 

Q.  You  say  it  costs  $120  a year  for  a student  at  your  university?  A. 
The  tuition  fee. 

Q.  At  the  University  of  Illinois,  it  costs  them  $24?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Can  a young  man  go  to  your  college  and  learn  as  much,  as  many 
things  as  they  teach  in  Champaign?  A.  It  depends  on  the  particular 
field;  they  have  a great  many  things  at  the  State  University  that  we  do 
not  profess  to  teach  at  all.  We  have  no  agricultural  or  engineering 
courses.  Of  course  we  have  college  work.  But  we  have  other  work  that 
they  have  not.  Our  graded  work  is  longer,  I think,  than  theirs. 

Q.  It  is  your  opinion  that  the  last  two  3fears  of  high  school  work 

should  be  given  to  every  day  business  training?  A.  1 think  the  high 

school  work,  and  not  the  last  two  years,  but  the  whole  course,  ought  to  be 
for  making  the  student  more  efficient  in  his  life  work;  that  is,  adapted 
to  the  great  majority  of  those  who  go  there.  I would  not  confine  it  to 

the  two  last  years;  I would  run  back  into  the  elementary  schools  the  same 

way. 

Q.  Doctor,  if  the  boy  or  girl  has  no  intention  of  going  to  the  uni- 
versity, is  it  advisable  for  them  to  begin  the  study  of  either  Latin  or  Greek 
in  the  high  school?  A.  Well,  I don’t  think  it  is  imperative.  I think 
that  the  study  of  Latin  is  useful  for  any  boy  going  through  school,  but  it 
is  not  at  all  imperative;  so  far  as  Greek  is  concerned,  distinctly  no.  He 
:j  can  get  that  later. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  HARRIS. 

SENATOR  HARRIS;  Doctor,  your  contention  is  that  inadequate  in- 
come is  the  cause  of  a lack  of  efficiency  upon  the  part  of  the  individual? 
A.  As  a general  thing.  Senator,  not  in  every  case,  but  as  a general  thing. 
Of  eourse  there  are  exceptional  cases. 

Q.  You  consider  that  an  efficient  man  would  get  sufficient  wages  to 
keep  him  and  his  family?  A.  In  the  long  run,  yes. 

Q.  Now,  would  you  consider  that  a person  who  went  through  the 
P University  of  Chicago  is  efficient?  A.  Most  of  them  are;  some  of  them, 
ii  I am  sorry  to  say,  are  not. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  any  number  of  graduates  of  the  Chicago 
.and  Illinois  Universities  are  not  making  a sufficient  living  wage?  A.  Grad- 
" uates  of  the  University  of  Chicago? 

i Q.  Yes.  A.  I don’t  know  it  to  be  a fact;  I don’t  believe  it  to  be 
; true.  There  are  some,  of  course,  always,  in  any  institution,  but  I think 
they  are  a small  number  comparatively.  I believe  that  the  great  masses 
’ of  our  graduates  do  earn  a decent  living. 

Q.  Do  you  consder  that  an  efficent  man  is  almost  always  sufficient!}' 
able  to  earn  a living?  A.  Yes.  The  difficulty  lies,  as  I take  it,  you  can 
provide  by  law  for  what  you  think  a man  needs,  but  no  laws  can  ever 
: govern  what  a man  wants.  Now  to  establish  a law  fixing  a minimum  wage, 
it  comes  out  of  what  you  asked  me  before,  or  I would  not  speak  of  it. 

!,  I assume  that  is  based  on  what  you  would  consider  the  normal,  healthy 
man  and  his  family,  consisting  of  himself,  his  wife  and  a daughter,  as  I 
j believe  you  stated,  would  need.  Now,  when  he  gets  that  you  have  no 
idea  as  to  what  he  and  his  family  want  in  addition.  He  always  wants 
more  than  he  has;  and  that  is  one  of  the  best  things  in  the  world;  other- 
wise we  should  not  get  ahead  and  make  things  go.  If  the  man  has  what 
I you  think  will  support  him  and  his  family  in  a decent  way,  perhaps  he  has 
I half  a dozen  girls  and  they  want  a lot  of  other  things,  but  the  father  is 
I in  that  walk  of  life  where  he  can’t  supply  them.  Therefore,  in  order  to 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


get  them,  they  find  tiiat  they  .can  secure  those  things  by  going  out  into 
i occupation,  and  you  can’t  stop  them.  Therefore  the  law  won’t 

help  the  situation  a particle  as  I view  it.  It  is  simply  the  human  wants 
that  can  t be,  controlled  by  law. 


Mr.  William  T.  Abbott’s  Testimony. 

WILLIAM  T.  ABBOTT,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  give  the  stenographer  your  name? 
A.  William  T.  Abbott. 

Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  Vice-president  of  the  Central  Trust 
Company  of  Illinois. 

Q.  How  many  men  are  employed  at  that  bank?  A.  Outside  of  the 
payroll  force,  247. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  them?  A.  It  is  a little  over  a 
thousand  dollars;  I think  exactly,  one  thousand  three  dollars  and  some 
cents. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage?  A.  The  lowest  wage,  of  which  we 
have  very  few,  is  $25  to  $30,  which  was  testified  to  by  other  bankers  yes- 
terday, to  the  boys  who  come  in  last  and  begin  as  messenger  bo3'S. 

Q.  And  the  bookkeepers,  what  is  the  average  wage  paid  to  the  book- 
keepers? A.  I don’t  classify  my  wages.  In  the  case  of  certain  lines  of 
employment  in  the  bank  they  run  from  twelve  to  fifteen  or  eighteen  hun- 
dred dollars,  and  some  who  become  heads  of  departments,  or  hold  respon- 
sible positions,  like  tellers,  run  higher  than  that.  I should  sa3'  that,  gen- 
erally speaking,  the  bookkeepers  are  paid  about  the  average  or  a little  less. 

Q.  Have  you  any  minimum  wage  for  married  men?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  a rule  similar  to  that  spoken  of  b3'  !Mr.  Forgan  as  exist- 
ing in  his  bank?  A.  No,  as  a rule  I think  the  3'oung  men  in  the  bank, 
possibly,  are  of  that  temper  of  mind  that  they  are  not  likely  to  be  led 
into  matrimony  until  they  are  assured  of  a reasonable  income  which 
would  enable  them  to  get  along. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  think  a man_should  have  in  the  cit3-  of  Chicago, 
to  marry  and  support  a family  on?  A.  I could  answer  that.  Governor, 
only  from  my  own  knowledge  of  the  , cost  ,of  necessities  of  life,  and  it  is 
my  deliberate  judgment  that  a man  on  a-  salary  ,of  a thousand  dollars  a 
year  can  afford  his  wife  and  small  familv'  a comfortable  support;  that  is, 
proyiding  he  is  not  trying^to,  make  a splurge  to  equal  his  neighbor,  who 
has  an  income  of  say  three,  jhousand,  and  who,  in  his  turn,  is  tr3-ing  to 
make  a splurge  equal  to  the  man  with  an  income  of  five  or  six  thousand 
dollars  a year.  In  other  words,  the  thousand  dollars  affords  a comfortable 
living,  but  they  can’t  have  an  automobile,  and  the3'  can’t  take  man3-  trips 
to  Europe  on  that  salary  or  income. 

Q.  The  State  of  Illinois  then  is  pa3-ing  its  legislators  a comfortable 
living?  A.  With  perquisites.  I have  been  ver3"  much  interested  in  Dr. 
Judson’s  statement,  in  which  he — perhaps  I ought  not  intentionalh’  to 
correct  the  Committee — and  3mu  used  the  term  “inadequate  income’’  in 
place  of  “inadequate  ^vage” — because  when  it  comes  to  that,  we  all  of  us 
have  an  inadequate  income.  I think  that  I could  count  on  the  fingers  of 
my  two  hands  every  person  who  thinks  he  has  an  adequate  income. 

Q.  Have  3'ou  any  information  on  that  subject  that  3'ou  desire  to 
impart  to  this  Committee?  A.  I have  onh’  studied  these  matters  as  any 
intelligent  man  ought  to,  but  I have  made  no  special  investigation  such 
as  qualifies  me  to  give  the  Committee  an3-  definite  information.  You  want 
my  honest  opinion,  don’t  3'OU? 

Q.  Absolutely?  A.  I want  to  sa3-  then  that  so  far  as  concerns  em- 
ployment in  a bank,  I believe  the  establishment  of  a minimum  wa.ge,  we 
will  say  even  for  the  different  classifications  of  employment,  would  be  the 
most  effective  means  of  crippling  human  ambition  that  human  ingenuity 
could  devise.  You  find  a man,  who  has  no  skill,  a situation;  sometimes  he 


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777 


IS  given  life  employment.  The  moment  that  occurs,  he  will  lay  down  on 
the  job  under  such  a system.  You  have  removed  every  incentive  for 
increasing  their  efficiency,  or  their  usefulness  to  the  institution.  So  long 
as  the  boy  knows  that  his  chance  for  advancement  in  that  institution  is 
dependent  upon  making  good,  he  is  going  to  work  hard,  irrespective  of 
the  wages  he  is  getting.  The  intelligent  employe,  the  intelligent  young 
man  in  any  employment,  ought  to  know  that  the  first  few  years  of  his  life, 
during  that  period,  he  has  got  to  give  service,  perhaps  out  . of  proportion 
to  the  wage  that  he  is  then  receiving,  in  hopes  of  advancement.  Now  when 
you  remove  that  incentive  and  the  boy  is  working  on  a minimum  wage, 
he  knows  that  the  state  is  going  to  compel  his  employer  to  pay  it,  so 
what  is  the  result?  I am  telling  you  that  my  judgment  is  that  that  boy 
will  never  get  above  that  minimum  wage.  And  let  me  say  just  one  other 
thing:  if  all  the  salaries  paid,  which  you  have  heard  testified  to,  which  on 
an  average  run  from  $75  a month  to  $83,  as  you  were  informed  by  the 
different  witnesses,  if  that  seems  a low  salary,  you  must  remember  that 
there  is  probably  no  business  in  the  world  in  which  the  relation  of  supply 
and  demand  is  so  large  a factor,  in  salaries  paid,  as  the  banking  business. 
The  supply  is  so  much  greater  than  the  dernand.  Young  .men  look  upon 
a position  as  statement  clerk  or  bookkeeper  in  a bank  a good  deal  as  the 
laborer  said  to  the  bishop  when  he  saw  the  bishop  passing  by  with  a fine 
suit  of  clothes  on;  he  said,  “Sometimes  I think  I would  like  a bishop’s 
job;  it  is  a nice  clean,  easy  job.”  There  are  a great  many  who  would 
prefer  to  go  into  the  banking  business  because  it  is  clean  work  and  shorter 
hours,  and  would  take  smaller  salaries  than  the  same  men  could  earn 
if  they  wished  to  apply  themselves  harder  to  work  in  some  ojher  lines 
of  employment. 

Q.  Mr.  Abbott,  you  have  expressed  the  opinion  that  the  establish- 
ment by  the  state  of  a minimum  wage  would  ruin  the  morale  and  destroy 
ambition?  A.  I really  think  so. 

Q.  Then  I will  ask  you  if  already  in  your  bank  you  haven’t  a minimum 
wage?  A.  Well,  yes  and  no.  The  amount  paid  to  the  boy  when  he  starts 
in  there  is,  as  Mr.  Reynolds  said;  that  is  the  customary  amount  paid  to 
boys. 

Q.  Doesn’t  that  constitute  a minimum  wage,  established  by -custom, 
which  is  always  the  forerunner  of  law?  A.  No,  because  the  boy  after 
continuing  there  for  a little  while,  and  being  given  a chance  to  demon- 
strate his  efficiency  and  probable  chances  for  promotion  if  he  did  not 
improve,  would  be  told  that  there  was  no  chance  for  any  further  promotion 
and  that  he  would  better  start  in  some  other  kind  of  business. 

Q.  What  difference  do  you  draw  between  a minimum  wage  fixed  by 
custom,  or  by  individual  employers,  and  a minimum  wage  fixed  by  law; 
the  minimum  wage  fixed  by  law  being  upon  the  theory  that  every  human 
being  in  society  has  a right  to  a living?  A.  Oh,  yes,  I think  there  is  a 
great  difference.  For  instance,  a minimum  wage  of  $25  to  $30  per  month 
for  boys  is  expected  to  last  but  temporarily,  and  the  boy  at  the  end  of  his 
first  week  or  two — if  he  has  not  demonstrated  his  capacity  for  increased 
efficiency- — would  be  allowed  to  go  and  get  into  some  other  employment, 
whereas  if  the  minimum  wage  was  fixed  by  law,  why,  he  or  some  other 
equally  inefficient  person  would  of  necessity  have  to  be  retained  there. 

Q,  Why?  A.  Because  you  would  not  be  able  to -get  any  better  boys. 

Q.  Why?  A.  That  is  the  way  of  it. 

Q.  I don’t  exactly  see  it  that  way,  Mr.  Abbott;  if  your  minimum  wage 
'fixed  by  law  requires  that  the  boy  or  girl  in  employment  shall  receive  as 
■ a minimum  a living,  instead  of  an  arbitrary  figure  set  by  custom  as  a 
minimum,  as  at  present,  how  is  that  change  from  one  minimum  to  another 
to  affect  materially  the  conduct  of  your  business,  including  your  system 
of  employment  and  discharge?  A.  Well,  I don’t  see  how  the  law  can  say 
that  anyone  must  be  paid  a living  wage.  I don’t  see  how  it  possibly  can, 
because  nobody  can  be  paid  by  an  employer  more  than  he  earns.  If  a boy 

comes  in  at  $25  a week  and  can’t  earn  $10,  he  ought  to  go  somewhere  else. 

Q.  Let  us  endeavor  to  get  at  it  in  another  way,  Mr.  Abbott.  When 
a girl  is  fourteen  and  she  goes  into  employment  in  a factory,  where  she 
stands  all  day  on  her  feet,  is  that  a good  thing  or  a bad  thing  for  a 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


girl  s health?  A.  There  is  no  room  for  argument  on  that  proposition. 

Q.  Might  it  shorten  her  life?  A.  Certainly,  certainly. 

Q.  If  in  addition  she  receive  an  inadequacy  of  income,  as  a result  of 
which  she  has  not  a healthy  place  to  sleep  in,  nor  enough  food  to  eat,  nor 
enough  warm  clothing  to  wear,  might  not  that  still  further  shorten  her 
life?  A.  There  is  no  argument  about  that;  there  is  no  question  about  it 

Q.  The  state  prohibits  the  taking  of  life,  does  it  not?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  hasn’t  the  state  the  same  right  to  prohibit  that  which, 
through  another  process,  leads  to  the  same  end,  the  shortening  of  life? 
A.  Undoubtedly.  I follow  you  exactly. 

Q.  Then  we  are  not  so  far  apart?  A.  No,  I don’t  think  so.  The 
most  of  the  arguments  in  the  world  arise  from  a failure  to  properly  define 
the  points  of  argument  to  start  with.  I do  wpt  to  say  one  thing:  I 
find  that  in  our  institution,  for  the  same  work,  girls  are  paid  at  least  equal 
to  or,  in  some  instances,  greater  salaries  than  the  men  for  the  same  work. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

Q.  How  many  girls  have  you?  A.  Let  me  see — between  twenty- 
five  and  thirty. 

Q.  And  mostly  stenographers?  A.  I should  say  about  half  of  them; 
the  others  are  tellers  in  the  savings  department;  I have  three  women 
bookkeepers  in  my  department. 

Q.  One  question  brings  on  another:  those  girls  you  have  employed 
there  do  their  work  as  well  as  if  you  had  men  there,  or  boys?  A.  Well, 
personally  speaking — strictly  speaking,  from  a personal  standpoint  and 
not  from  an  official  standpoint — the  kind  of  work  that  the  women  do 
in  my  department,  I infinitely  prefer  them  to  men.  They  are  prefer- 
able in  any  work  which  requires  a careful  degree  of  accuracy,  and  pains- 
taking attention  to  an  infinite  number  of  little  details;  in  that  they  are 
very  much  superior  to  men. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  if  a girl  or  a woman  can  do  a certain  class 
of  work  as  well,  or  better,  than  a man,  that  she  should  be  paid  equal  or 
better  wages?  A.  Yes,  and  we  pay  them. 

Mr.  Abraham  W.  Harris’  Testimony. 

ABRAHAM  W.  HARRIS,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Commit- 
tee, was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara,  and  testified  as  follows: 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Will  you  state  your  name,  please?  A. 
Abraham  W.  Harris. 

Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  President  of  the  Northwestern  Uni- 
versity. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  As  I have  to  leave  in  a few  moments,  I would 
like  to  ask  you  a few  questions.  I was  mayor  of  the  city  of  Alton  three 
terms,  and  we  had  quite  an  excitement  in  our  school  as  regards  the  boys 
and  girls  of  our  high  school.  The  Board  of  Education,  and  I think  the 
majority  of  them,  were  opposed  to  the  last  two  j-ears  of  their  going  to 
high  school.  During  the  last  two  years  they  didn’t  have  any  particular 
study,  only  fitting  themselves  for  college,  the  last  two  j-ears  solely  a col- 
lege preparatory  course,  and  a great  many  of  our  men  have  taken  their 
boys  out  of  the  high  school  and-sent  them  to  a business  college  in  St.  Louis 
because  they  wanted  to  make  business  men  out  of  their  bo3's  and  not  col- 
lege professors,  and  not  over  five  per  cent  of  the  boj'^s  that  go  to  the  high 
school  ever  go  to  college.  Now,  I would  like  to  ask  j'our  opinion. 
Doctor:  do  you  think  it  is  right  or  wrong  to  use  these  last  two  j-ears 
of  the  young  man’s  time  preparing  him  for  college,  when  he  is  not  going 
there?  Wouldn’t  it  be  better  to  give  him  a business  education?  A.  I 
think  that  a high  school  ought  to  do  both.  I think  it  would  be  a great 
wrong  to  disregard  in  tbe  two  years  of  high  school  the  special  needs  of 


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iny  large  proportion.  I would  include  both  girls  and  boys.  I feel  that 
it  is  quite  as  important  to  train  pupils  to  use  an  income  as  it  is  to  train  them 
to  get  it,  and  while  men  ordinarily  make  the  income,  the  greater  part  of 
ill  money  that  is  made  is  spent  by  the  women,  and  I am  inclined  to  think 
that  there  is  quite  as  much  need  for  efficiency  in  spending  as  in  earning. 
Take  the  great  body  of  women,  nine-tenths  of  whom  are  going  to  enter 
into  some  walk  of  life,  and  put  them  in  school,  and  give  them  no  special 
training,  is  certainly  blindness  in  our  school  system;  and  the  high  schools, 
as  well  as  the  lower  schools,  ought  to  give  the  girl  the  best  training  for 
the  business  she  will  ordinarily  follow.  We  sometimes  teach  bookkeeping 
to  boys  _and  not  to  girls.  Not  very  many  boys  have  use  for  bookkeeping, 
but  every  woman,  with  hardly  any  exception,  ought  to  know  how  to 
keep  simple  accounts.  If  you  have  ever  looked  over  a woman’s  accounts, 
lyou  will  find  that  not  many  of  them  know  how  to  keep  them. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I was  talking  recently  with  a lot  of  people 
that  were  up  to  my  house,  and  among  them  were  several  graduates 
from  the  high  school,  and  I made  the  remark,  I said,  “If  the  price  of 
any  article  is  a dollar  and  the  discount  is  fifty  and  five  off,  how  much 
■will  that  article  cost?”  and  there  was  no  one  who  could  answer  that  ques- 
tion. They  said  they  didn’t  learn  that  at  school.  That  is  a fact;  they 
could  not  tell  me  what  that  article  cost. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Senator  Harris,  will  you  conduct  the  ex- 
amination of  Dr.  Harris? 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  HARRIS. 

Q.  Doctor,  how  many  students  have  you  in  your  school?  A.  About 
j,4,800  or  5,000. 

Q.  And  they  are  divided  up  about  evenly  between  men  and  women? 
A.  There  are  perhaps  one-fifth  women,  perhaps  a little  more — about 
jfifteen  hundred,  I should  say. 

Q.  What  is  the  tuition  fee?  A.  It  varies  according  to  the  different 
classes:  in  college,  liberal  arts,  it  is  $120  a year;  in  the  law  school  it  is 
$150;  the  school  of  commerce,  $175.  It  varies  somewhat  according  to 
the  amount  of  work. 

. Q.  Can  you  approximate.  Doctor,  the  cost  of  living  per  year  for 
your  students  in  college?  A.  No,  I haven’t  any  figures  that  would 
enable  me  to  give  you  an  accurate  statement.  I would  suppose,  including 
traveling  expenses,  it  might  not  run  very  far  from  six  hundred  dollars, 
but  that  might  be  quite  a ways  off. 

Q.  You  have  dormitories  and  such  things  as  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  track  of  any  of  your  students  when  they  leave  your 
college?  A.  Oh,  yes,  in  a general  way;  of  course,  we  keep  quite  an 
accurate  record  of  all  of  our  graduates  where  they  are.  We  don’t  attempt 
to  keep  track  of  their  income;  there  is  no  way  in  which  we  can  do  that. 

Q.  You  have  some  theory  about  what  they  make  after  they  leave 
your  college?  A.  No,  not  very  definite;  not  definite  enough  to  give  you 
any  figures.  It  is  difficult  to  get  at  it.  Now  and  then  a class  will  make 
a census,  but  even  those  results  are  very  incomplete. 

Q.  The  graduates  mostly  follow  professions?  A.  Out  of  the_  Col- 
lege of  Liberal  Arts,  I should  say  the  largest  number  go  into  business. 
Of  course,  our  location  leads  to  unusual  results.  A college  in  a great 
city  like  Chicago  would  be  apt  to  have  most  of  its  members  go  into  busi- 
ness; college  students,  some  of  them,  are  going  to  teach;  a few  of  them 
I will  go  into  the  ministry,  a great  many  will  go  into  the  other  profes- 
‘ sions,  but  those  who  stop  at  the  end  of  college,  I should  say  sixty  per  cent, 
go  into  business.  I am  talking  of  men  now. 

' Q.  Do  you  feel,  like  Dr.  Judson,  that  inadequate  wage  is  a matter 
I I of  inefficiency?  A.  In  the  last  analysis,  it  must  be,  but  there  is  a good 
1 Ideal  of  luck  about  it.  You  take  two  men  of  about  equal  ability,  or  about 
* I equal  character,  and  one  does  much  better  than  the  other;  there  might 
' be  some  particular  personality  which  might  have  something  to  do  with  it, 


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but  I think  that  men  are  very  blind  to  think  that  merit  has  to  be 
related  in  just  exact  proportions. 

Q.  What  is  your  general  idea  about  a minimum  wage?  A.  I am 
rather  at  sea  on  that;  I do  believe  that  every  man  and  ever3'  woman 
ought  to  have  a living;  it  should  be  a broad,  modest  living,  of  course. 
But  how  that  is  possible  or  best  to  be  brought  about,  is  not  entirely 
clear  in  my  mind.  But  the  community  ought  to  see  to  it  that  there  is  a 
fair  living  provided;  that  principle  has  been  recognized  for  many'  years. 
What  the  effect  of  a minimum  law  would  be  is  impossible  to  tell.  I feel 
that  young  women  in  the  city,  who  are  trying  to  establish  themselves  in 
business  and  who  have  not  really  completed  their  education,  • because 
the  young  woman  who  starts  in  is  really  still  in  her  educational  period, 
I feel  that  they  ought  to  in  some  way  be  taken  care  of.  Four  or  five 
dollars  a week,  or  whatever  it  may  be,  is  not  sufficient  to  properly  keep 
her,  and  the  deficiency  should  be  made  up  in  some  way. 

Q.  Can  you  conceive  of  any'  manner  in  which  they  can  be  taken  care 
of  unless  the  state  steps  in?  A.  Well,  I think  this  thing  might  be  done: 
I believe  we  ought  to  register  all  women  who  are  working  under  a cer- 
tain wage,  in  order  that  their  cases  may  be  followed  up.  Of  course,  there 
are  a great  many  girls  who  go  into  business  as  apprentices;  they  don’t 
use  that  term,  but  that  is  what  it  is,  and  are  yvorth  very  little  as  a begin- 
ner. They  are  in  their  homes,  the  great  majority'  of  them,  and  they'  re- 
ceive probably  not  any  more  than  a part  of  their  expenses.  The  situa- 
tion is  not  very  much  different  than  that  which  existed  when  they  were 
in  school,  and  if  all  homes  were  able  to  take  care  of  them,  that  might  be 
the  best  way',  but  there  are  others  who  are  thrown  upon  their  own  re- 
sources, and  they  must  make  their  own  way.  I think  that  one  of  the 
most  pitiful  situations  you  can  imagine  is  that  of  a young  girl  who  is 
forced  to  take  care  of  herself  without  home  help,  and  I have  no  hesita- 
tion in  say'ing  that  the  community'  should  help.  If  there  is  no  home  to 
help  the  completing  of  the  education,  the  community'  should  take  a hand. 
If  we  registered  them,  we  could  get  it  fixed.  I am  convinced,  how- 
ever, that  something  must  be  done,  and  a well-studied,  carefully'  pre- 
pared minimum  wage  for  girls  looks  as  if  it  would  be  a good  thing  after 
proper  investigation,  thought,  and  research. 

Q.  A great  deal  of  stress  has  been  laid,  and  is  laid  by'  employers  upon 
efficiency;  of  course,  the  supposition  is  that  efficient  men  can  alway's  get  a 
job;  now,  if  colleges  like  the  Northwestern  University  and  the  Chicago 
University  turn  out  efficient  men,  I should  not  consider  a thousand  dol- 
lars a year  a sufficient  wage  for  that  class  of  men;  still,  is  it  not  true 
that  there  are  any  number  of  them  working  in  these  banks  around  town 
for  that,  or  possibly  less?  A.  Oh,  y'es,  undoubtedly';  of  course,  many 
young  men  are  willing  to  work  for  less  than  a thousand  dollars  in  a bank, 
but  that  is  a pretty  poor  result.  I don’t  say'  that  the  number  of  cases  is 
very'  large,  if  you  will  investigate;  but  you  take  certain  professions  and  we 
see  every  now  and  then  that  a college  graduate  averages  less  than  a 
thousand  dollars.  But  that  is  not  a very'  large  number,  and  also  there  are 
some  college  men  who  go  into  the  ministry'. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a fact  that  numbers  of  college  graduates  that  go  into  the 
skilled  trades,  make  more  money,  as  a rule,  than  the  college  graduates 
who  go  into  the  professions?  A.  Oh,  no,  I think  not;  my  judgment 
would  be  that  that  is  not  the  fact. 

Q.  Then  let  me  put  the  question  differently:  Is  it  not  a fact  that 
members  of  the  skilled  trades  make  more  money,  as  a rule,  than  college 
graduates?  A.  No,  I would  not  think  that  to  be  the  fact;  that  is  not  the 
fact;  it  is  very  far  from  the  fact.  You  take  the  average  college  graduate 
and  he  is  once  on  his  feet,  he  will  very  far  outstrip  the  other.  There 
w'ere  some  statistics  brought  out  by  an  engineer  in  regard  to  engineering 
estimates.  He  took  an  estimate  based  upon  the  records  of  one  of  the 
very  largest  engineering  concerns  out  here  in  the  Y est — I forget  ^yhich 
one — he  took  the  case  of  men  who  were  laborers,  without  much  of  any 
skill,  and  then  the  skilled  laborers,  and  then  the  engineers.  Of  course,  the 
laborers  got  to  work  first,  so  they  began  to  earn  first.  For  a while  they 
yvere  ahead  of  the  proposition.  Then  they  were  passed  in  a very  short 


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time  by  the  higher  class  of  laborers,  the  skilled  laborers,  and  in  ten 
years  from  the  time  that  the  first  class  went  to  work,  the  college  graduate, 
the  engineers,  which  were  the  last  really  to  go  to  work,  had  overtaken 
and  passed  both  the  other  classes  in  their  earnings,  although  the  engineer- 
ing class  had  not  been  working  half  as  long.  Of  course,  there  are  some 
■men  who  earn  very  large  wages. 

Q.  We  found  yesterday.  Doctor,  that  in  some  of  our  largest  retail 
establishments  here,  the  average  wage  paid  to  man  workers,  is  in  the 
neighborhood  of  sixteen  or  seventeen  dollars  a week;  now  that  being  the 
average  wage  paid,  it  would  rather  suggest  that  in  the  average  family  the 
head  of  the  household  is  not  getting  enough  money  to  support  a wife  and 
family  on,  and  that  being  so.  Doctor,  isn’t  it  a fair  presumption  that  in 
jsuch  a home — the  average  home — the  average  working  home — the  daughter 
is  forced  out  into  the  industrial  world  when  she  reaches  the  age  of  four- 
teen or  fifteen,  the  age  when  she  needs  a little  extra  clothing  and  her 
expenses  become  a little  heavier;  would  you  think  that  that  is  a fair  pre- 
sumption? A.  Yes,  I should  think  so. 

Q.  Then  as  she  is  forced  out  and  has  to  do  something,  and  she  does 
get  part  of  her  support  from  the  home,  she  can  afford  to  sell  her  time 
for  less  money  than  the  man  who  would  be  entirely  self-supporting,  and 
as  in  some  of  our  factories  they  have  machinery,  for  instance,  that  re- 
quires merely  a human  being  to  run  it;  there  is  no  efficiency  required, 
just  a human  being;  human  help  must  be  harnessed  to  that  machine;  also 
in  some  of  our  retail  places,  in  selling  certain  goods,  it  is  more  or  less  a 
mechanical  process  and  a girl  can  do  it  as  well  as  any  other  human  being, 
practically;  now  doesn’t  the  forcing  of  that  girl  into  the  business  world 
or  into  that  employment  by  the  inadequacy  of  wage  paid  to  the  head  of 
the  household,  bring  her  into  competition  with  men  and  thus  tend  to  re- 
duce their  wages?  A.  The  more  workers,  practically  the  lower  average 
salary,  probably,  unless  the  production  is  to  some  extent  increased.  I 
have  no  doubt  that  if  you  withdraw  the  woman  from  commercial  enter- 
prises, you  would  find  that  wages  would  go  up. 

Q.  If  wages  went  up,  the  heads  of  the  households  would  get  enough 
money,  possibly,  for  them  to  keep  their  girls  at  home?  A.  In  some  cases 
they  would,  but  I don’t  think  they  would  in  all  cases.  What  I said  before, 
in  regard  to  the  efficiency  of  spending:  there  are  some  people  who  would 
be  just  on  the  border  line  in  any  case.  It  is  an  extremely  complicated 
problem.  There  are  certain  lines  of  work  which  women  have  done  for 
ages,  and  which  I do  not  think  could  be  carried  on  by  men;  you  could 
not  supply  them.  Here  in  the  city  you  have  a great  number  of  steno- 
graphers; if  you  I repared  women  to  do  that  you  could  not  get  men  to 
do  it.  There  would  be  simply  a reduction  in  the  amount  of  such  work. 
For  in  such  a line  of  work  as  that,  women  in  my  opinion,  are  very  much 
better  on  the  average  than  men. 

Q.  Why  do  you  think  that  the  woman  is  better?  A.  In  the  matter 
of  details,  I think  that  a. woman  is  very  much  better  than  a man,  on  an 
average.  If  you  put  a man  to  work  bringing  up  two  or  three  children 
and  keeping  the  house  going,  and  working  from  the  time  he  got  up  in 
the  morning  until  bed  time,  at  all  times,  at  one  thing  and  another,  almost 
any  man  would  go  crazy  in  two  or  three  months,  but  the  woman  will 
prosper  on  it.  The  notion  that  a,  woman  is  weaker  than  a man  is  only 
true  in  some  lines.  In  some  businesses,  where  you  need  to  take  charge 
of  large  details,  a woman  will  ordinarily  beat  a man.  She  goes  at  it  in 
a way  which  does  not  seem  to  work  on  her  nerves.  A man  is  quite  as 
nervous  as  a woman  is.  That  is  true  too,  in  vocational  life.  The  notion 
that  a woman  could  not  do  some  of  those  things  as  well  as  a man  has 
been  entirely  exploded.  The  notion  also  that  a woman  could  not  have  an 
education  has  been  entirely  exploded;  the  girls  will  beat  the  boys  in  college 
in  certain  studies,  will  beat  them  every  time.  While  all  that  is  true,  the 
men  have  their  advantages  to  a certain  extent,  in  which  they  will  beat 
the  women,  but  the  initiative  is  more  to  be  found  in  the  woman. 

EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion,  Doctor,  that  the  minimum  wage  law,  providing 


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the  girl  who  goes  out  to  work  with  a living,  would  tend  to  protect  her 
from  the  grinding  of  some  employers?  A.  I would  like  to  see  it  tried, 
but  I would  like  to  see  it  tried  on  a very  modest  scale  first,  pretty  well 
down.  If  you  put  it  too  far  up  you  may  work  a tremendous  hardship 
on  girls  who  can’t  get  work  at  all.  You  know,  in  New  York  state  there 
was  a law  passed  which  gave  a certain  salary  to  women  teachers:  it  was 
not  intended  that  way,  but  the  result  was,  and  the  tendency  of  that  law 
was  to  displace  the  women  by  the  men.  If  you  put  a woman’s  salary 
up  to  that  of  a man,  the  woman  doesn’t  get  the  chance;  if  you  put  a 
man’s  salary  down  to  that  of  a woman,  the  man  won’t  take  the  place 
and  you  will  have  the  woman,  and  with  the  best  of  intentions,  sometimes, 
you  might  work  things  just  the  way  you  didn’t  want  to,  but  I think  it  is 
worth  trying. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  a woman’s  minimum  wage  law  would  even- 
tually have  the  effect  of  increasing  wages  to  men?  A.  I don’t  dare  to 
venture  an  opinion  on  that;  it  is  too  complicated,  I am  sure.  Of  course 
you  have  got  so  much  of  product;  if  you  don’t  increase  the  product,  then 
your  problem  becomes  one  of  distribution.  I don’t  think  it  would  be  a 
very  great  hardship  for  you  to  take  something  from  those  who  are  getting 
more  and  pay  it  to  those  who  are  getting  less,  providing  you  are  very 
conservative  about  it.  It  is  a necessity  to  the  community  that  some  men 
should  have  great  incomes,  because  it  is  only  in  that  way  that  you  can 
control  a profit  that  makes  for  opportunities.  If  I am  right  in  diagnosing 
the  trend  of  affairs,  we  are  coming  to  a point  where  the  public  thinks 

that  great  wealth  is  not  always  for  the  benefit  of  one  alone.  The  time 

was  when  it  was  undisputed  that  a man  had  the  right  to  his  own  winnings, 
who  did  not  trespass  upon  the  rights  of  others,  but  the  trend  of  opinion 
now  seems  to  be  that  after  he  has  certain  wealth,  he  must  use  his  surplus 
wealth  to  build  up  the  welfare  of  his  fellow-rnan  who  has  made  great 
efforts  to  aid  him  in  building  up  and  accumulating  it.  Take  a man  with 
a million  dollars  of  income;  what  he  gets  for  his  personal  use  is  not  very 
much  more  than  when  he  only  had  fifty  thousand  dollars  income;  he 
can’t  use  much  more.  He  may  hunt  around  for  a yacht  or  something.  As 
a rule  he  has  put  it  into  property.  As  a rule,  he  is  a man  of  outstanding 
ability,  who  knows  how  to  organize  industry  so  as  to  give  to  the  poor 
man  a chance.  Now  you  can  afford  to  let  that  man  control  a great  for- 
tune, if  he  is  using  it.  The  weakness  comes  in  when  he  takes  it  and 

abuses  it  in  some  way  and  don’t  possess  that  outstanding  ability. 

Q.  The  public  menace  comes  when  he  dies  and  the  wealth  passes  into 
other  hands,  perhaps  inefficient;  then  what  shall  we  have,  an  inheritance 
tax?  A.  I think  we  are  drifting  towards  the  inheritance  tax  theory. 
You  will  find  some  family  name  has  always  been,  for  instance,  linked  with 
great  railroad  enterprises.  A generation  passes  away  and  a new_  man 
arises;  the  name  disappears.  You  take  Harriman.  He  has  been  criticised 
sharply  for  some  of  his  methods,  yet  he  certainly  was  a master  of 
efficiency  in  railroads.  He  did  a tremendous  service  to  the  country  in 
making  groups  of  railroads  wonderfully  efficient.  He  died  with  one  hun- 
dred millions  of  dollars  in  his  possession.  Probably  in  giving  him  that 
hundred  millions  of  dollars,  the  community  made  a better  bargain  than 
it  does  in  most  cases  when  it  pays  twelve  dollars  a week  to  another  man. 
The  community  can  afford  to  pay  big  salaries  to  efficient  men.  but  one  of 
the  great  problems  of  educational  industry  or  vocational  industry  is  to 
sort  out  those  men  who  are  really  in  the  end  the  greatest  public  servants, 
to  serve  the  public,  and  I think  that  the  public  can  afford  to  pay  them 
well. 

Q.  Suppose  a man  were  a merchant  here  in  Chicago  and  he  built 
un  a big  store  and  by  the  time  he  died  he  had  accumulated  a fortune 
of  many  million  dollars,  and  instead  of  being  permitted  by  law  to  tie  that 
fortune’ up  in  a trust  fund,  to  hand  it  down  to  his  descendants  who  might 
not  have  the  same  ability  to  care  for  it  that  he  had,  suppose  that  under 
the  law  a certain  amount,  a liberal  amount,  has  been  left  to  his  family 
to  keep  them  well,  and  provide  for  them  during  life,  and  the  rest  had 
been  divided  among  the  men  and  women  and  the  children,  who  were 
instrumental  in  aiding  to  build  up  that  business,  his  employes,  would  that 
have  been  a proper  solution  of  the  present  question  that  we  are  discussing; 


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A.  I very  much  doubt  it.  Most  concerns  that  are  co-operative  enter- 
prises, show  that  they  are  not  efficient  for  a very  long  time.  You  have 
got  some  illustrations  that  are  well  worthy,  taking  into  account  here  in 
Chicago.  Now,  take  in  the  beef  industry;  you  have  had  several  great 
, names  in  the  last  generation.  Now,  the  common  saying  used  to  be  that 
a rich  man’s  son  was  of  no  account,  but  that,  I think,  is  a mistake.  So 

far  as  I can  see,  the  boys,  the  sons  of  the  great  beef  men,  are  not  only 

as  able  as  their  fathers  were,  but  are  getting  results  that  are  greater  than 
their  fathers  did.  There  are  many  cases  where  that  is  tue.  I am  not  at 

1 all  sure  that  the  drift  of  poor  stock  in  great  families  is  any  greater  than 

we  ought  to  expect.  There  must  be,  of  course,  for  great  achievement, 
great  prices,  and  I would  go  pretty  slow  towards  limiting  it.  At  the  same 
time  I think,  beyond  any  question,  that  the  community  is  not  only  in- 
terested, but  should  assert  its  interest  in  the  public  use  of  great  funds, 
whether  in  the  hands  of  private  individuals  or  in  the  hands  of  corpor- 
ations, and  I understand  that  that  theory  is  being  generally  accepted. 
That,  I think,  is  to  a great  extent  the  cause  of  the  tremendous  fortunes 
which  are  being  made. 

Q.  If  there  were  a very  strong  inheritance  tax,  stronger  than  any 
we  have  on  the  books  now,  and  the  money,  or  a large  part  of  the  money, 
went  into  a fund  to  pay  pensions  to  mothers,  to  retired  workmen  at  say 
the  age  of  fifty,  and  so  forth,  would  that,  in  your  judgment,  be  one  of 
the  possible  solutions  of  the  problem  that  we  are  studying  now?  A.  It 
is  a possible  solution,  but  the  reason  why  1 would  hesitate  about  it  is 
that  the  dragging  out  of  capital  might  mean  the  breaking  up  of  great 
enterprises.  Now,  what  difference  does  it  make  to  a place,  for  instance, 

' where  one  of  these  great  concerns  are  situated,  as  to  who  holds  the  capital 
j stock  of  that  concern,  provided  that  the  concern  gets  on  and  does  its 
work  and  gives  aid  to  the  community.  The  capital  stock  ought  to  be 
held  where  it  will  be  most  efficiently  used.  Do  you  get  my  idea?  Sup- 

i pose  we  take  Marshall  Field.  There  was  a great  fortune  left  to  the 

I individual,  and  while  he  won’t  get  much  of  it,  the  community  is  vitally 
I interested  as  to  whether  that  concern,  by  the  impairment  of  its  capital, 
I should  be  broken  up;  its  gives  employment  to  thousands.  Now  what  does 
\ it  matter  to  the  masses  as  to  who  holds  the  capital  stock?  Providing  it 
i is  held  together  in  such  a way  that  there  will  be  an  incentive  to  employ 
people,  men  to  make  it  work  and  furnish  opportunities  for  all  of  these 
employes?  Do  you  get  my  point?  We  are  not  much  concerned  over  who 
holds  the  capital  stock.  You  know  that  old  story.  I think  it  was  Emerson 
; who  tells  us  the  story  that  he  went  with  a friend  overy  a very  beautiful 
1 estate,  across  the  fields  and  through  the  woods,  and  he  asked  his  friend 
[ who  owned  it;  his  friend  replied,  “I  own  it,  but  John  Smith  holds  the  title 
j deeds  and  takes  care  of  it.”  That  is  possibly  true;  you  take  a rich  man 
I with  a great  estate,  great  property  to  take  care  of;  he  may  be  so  busy 

I doing  clerical  work  and  looking  after  things,  that  he  does  not  get  a great 

1 deal  out  of  it  after  all. 

Mr.  William  T.  Abbott’s  Testimony  Resumed. 

WILLIAM  T.  ABBOTT,  recalled  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 
j MR.  ABBOTT:  Won’t  you  give  me  just  a minute  of  your  time  be- 
cause I am  afraid  that  I left  the  wrong  impression  with  you. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Very  gladly. 

MR.  ABBOTT:  I agree  with  you.  I agree  with  you  on  your  diagnosis 
of  existing  conditions,  but  I said  I did  not  believe  that  the  remedy  was 
to  be  found  in  legislation.  I want  to  make  myself  clear  on  that,  and  I 
thought  that  you  would  have  no  objections  to  my  making  a further  state- 
ment. The  difficulty  about  any  legislation  as  a remedy  for  those  social 
or  economic  conditions  as  we  find  them,  if  you  assume  the  right  and  exer- 
cise the  power  to  carry  into  effect  the  minimum  wage  sufficient  to  cover 
what  the  then  existing  legislature  may  deem  to  be  the  actual  human 
necessities,  you  are  ignoring  a great  economic  principle  of  the  relation 
: of  those  necessities  to  the  human  wants.  Let  me  give  you  an  illustration: 

Let  us  take  a family  with  an  income  of  six  hundred  dollars  without  any 
,j  minimum  wage  law.  That  family  finds  that  to  live  as  it  wishes  to  in 


784 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


these  days,  it  is  bound  to  spend  eight  hundred  dollars.  Now  to  get  that 
eight  hundred  dollars,  it  either  goes  in  debt  or  some  of  the  children  of 
the  family  go  out  to  work,  to  get  that  eight  hundred  dollars  to  spend. 
Now  if  the  legislature  could,  or,  on  that  theory,  should  enact  a minimum 
wage 'law  for  the  family  of  that  number  of  persons,  irrespective  of 
efficiency  and  actual  earning  power  of  the  head  of  the  family  making  that 
eight  ‘hundred-  dollars,  it  is  a principle  of  economics,  and  it  is  a thoroughly 
demonstrated  thing  in  every-day  life,  that  the  wants  of  that  family  imme- 
diately go  up  to  eleven  or  twelve  hundred  dollars.  We  find  that  every 
day  in  our  experience,  and  we  know  that  it  is  the  experience  of  people, 
that  Avhen  their  income  increases  from  ten  to  fifteen  or  twenty  per  cent, 
theft  wants  increase  thirty  to  forty  per  cent.  They  continually  want 
more  things  and  better  things.  Now  undoubtedly,  human  progress  is 
largely  dependent  upon  the  operation  of  that  economic  theory  and  we  are 
living_  in  an  age  today  when  it  is  perhaps  carried  to  the  greatest  extreme 
that  it  ever  has  been,  by  reason,  perhaps,  very^  largely,  of  ingenious 
advertising  by  the  concerns,  through  the  active  compaigns  of  advertising 
managers  of  newspapers.  But  that  is  the  situation  as  it  exists,  and  that 
is  a reason,  and  to  my  mind,  an  effective  one,  why  a minimum  wage  law 
wduld  not  remedy  the  evils  which  we  are  investigating  and  about  which 
there’ is‘  no'  room  for  argument.  In  other  words,  you  will  be  elevating 
the  whole  thing  to  a horizontal  plane  of  conditions  ten  or  twenty  per 
cent  above  what  they  are  today,  but  conditions  will  remain  the  same. 
There  is  only  one  person  that  I can  think  of  that  I believe  that  a minimum 
wage  law  would  be  of  any  benefit  to,  and  that  is  the  one  that  must  have 
help. 

Q.  Do  j^ou  not  believe  that  it  is  also  sound  logic  and  perfectly  good 
economics  that  for  a minimum  of  industrial  efficiency  there  should 
always  be  paid  the  minimum  of  a living?  A.  If  I granted  that  it  would 
only  be  on  the  basis  of  a living  for  that  individual.  I think  I stated  my 
position  ve'ry  clearly  on  the  wage  question.  As  to  the  wages  for  women, 
I think  that  they ‘should  have  equal  wages  with  men  for  doing  the  same 
work.,  I am  very  much  obliged  to  you  for  this  opportunity  of  making 
myself  clearer;  I thought,  on  reflection,  that  I had  perhaps  left  it  not 
verjr  clear  in  your  minds. 

Mr.  Leonard  A.  Busby’s  Testimony. 

'LEONARD  A.  BUSBY,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Committee, 
was  examined  in  chief  by  Chairman  O’Hara  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAbT  O’HARA:  W'ill  you  give  the  reporter  j-our  name?  A. 
Leonard  A.  Busby. 

Q.  What  is  j'our  occupation?  A.  I operate  the  Chicago  City  Rail- 
way. 

Q.  How  many  employes  have  vou,  Air.  Busbv?  A.  Approximately 
4,500. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid?  A.  The  average  wage  for  all 
men  in  the  transportation  service  is  $71.50,  speaking  approximately. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  man  employed  by  that 
company?  A.  Do  you  mean  adult? 

Q.  You  can  separate  the  two  if  you  desire;  first,  the  lowest  wage 
paid  to  any  minor.  A.  '\Vell,  practically  all  of  our  employes  are  adults, 
or  at  least  young  fellows  who  are  employed  to  do  a man’s  work.  Those 
that  go  into  the  train  service;  we  employ  practicalh-  no  boys.  There 
are  four  or-  five  .boys  around  the  offices  that  are  merely  office  boys; 
the  rest  of  the  men  are  practically  adults.  The  lowest  wage  that  we 
pay  is  for  unskilled  labor.  Those  men  are  classified  as  car  cleaners. 
They  begin  at  $1.91  a day;  that  is  19  cents  an  hour  for  ten  hours.  The_ 
second,  I think,  get  $2.20  per  day.  Now  those  men,  the  better  class  of 
men,  are  generally  promoted  to  that  of  car  placers,  having  a ma.ximum 
of  $2.50  a day,  and  from  that  to  car  repair  men_  employed  in  making 
renairs,  car  inspectors,  dopers  and  so  forth,  running  to  $2.80  per  day. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  785 

Our  trainmen  begin — the  conductors  and  motormen  I mean  by  trainmen-^ 
at  $2.30  a day,  or  23  cents  an  hour,  ^or  the  first  three  months;  25  cents 
per  hour  for  the  second  three  months;  26  cents  per  hour  for  the  next 
six  months,  and  then,  beginning  on  the  second  year,  they  get  27  cents 
an  hour  for  the  first  six  months,  28  cents  an  hour  for  the  second  six 
; months  of  that  year,  and  29  cents  an  hour  for  the  third  year,  30  cents 
an  hour  for  the  fourth  year,  31  cents  an  hour  for  the  fifth  year,  and  32 
cents  an  hour  thereafter.  Our  average  day’s  work  for  those  men  over 
i the  entire  system  is  ten  hours  and  twenty  minutes.  That,  of  course, 

includes  our  allowance  ofif;  I mean  that  the  amount  of  time  for  which 
they  are  paid  for  a day’s  work,  is  ten  hours  and  twenty  minutes  per 
day. 

Q.  Are  most  of  the  men  employed  by  your  corporation  married 
men?  A.  We  made  an  estimate  of  .that  some  time  ago  when  we  had 
the  question  before  the  Board  of  Arbitration.  On  that  board,  Mr. 

' Justice  Carter  of  our  Supreme  Court  was  the  umpire.  There  was  not 
an  actual  test  made,  but  it  seemed  to  run  about  fifty  per  cent  of  our  men 
that  were  married;  the  younger  men  were  unmarried. 

Q.  ,At  the  time  you  made  that  investigation,  , or  inquiry,  did  you 
also  conduct  an  investigation  or  inquiry  into  the  cost  to  the  head  of 
the  household,  as  to  what  it  would  cost  him  to  support  a family?  A. 
i That  question  was  taken  up  and  some  data  was  submitted  by  the  men 
before  the  board  on  that  question. 

Q.  And  what  did  that  data  show  in  a general  way?  A.  I am 
speaking  now  from  recollection,  but  I think  that  the  testimony,  as  we 

didn’t  go  into  that  question,  was  ex  parte,  and  it  was  that  for  a family 

of  five,  a man  and  wife  and  three  children,  it  ranged  from  eleven  hundred 
to  twelve  hundred  dollars  per  year. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  that  estimate  is  high?  A.  It  was  for  our 
men;  the  average  family,  as  I recollect  it,  for  the  entire  class  of  em- 
ployes, will  have  about  three  and  a half  members  per  family,  but  to  take 
a family  of  five,  no  one  could  say  that  eleven  hundred  dollars  was  an 
extravagant  estimate  for  the  living  e.xpenses  at  this  time. 

J Q.  You  say  the  company  did  not  offer  any  evidence  of  a similar 
I nature?  A.  We  didn’t. 

I Q.  And  for  what  reason,  Mr.  Busby?  A.  That  that  in  our  judg- 
ment would  not  have  afforded  very  much  if  any  light  which  would  have 
been  of  any  value  to  the  board  with  reference  to  the  questions  in  con- 
troversy. Now,  if  you  take  a family  of  five  members,  and  their  figures 
on  that  question  were  submitted  as  itemized,  and  the  itemized  cost  of 
living,  the  itemized  cost  of  clothing,  and  so  forth,  and  if  you  went  at 
it  from  the  standpoint  of  giving  the  amount  of  money  estimated  for  a 
given  family,  you  would  readily  reach  the  conclusion  that  they  had  not 
:i  expended  anything  ■ vfery  extravagantly,  or  had  not  indulged  in  extrava- 
i gant  living  in  order  to  reach  those  results.  Nevertheless,  the , way  we 
1 approached  that  matter  was  this:  Our  men  are  getting  and  receiving 
an  average  wage,  and  a large  proportion  of  those  men  have  saved  money; 
i some  of  them,  and  a large  number  of  our  men,  I am  very  glad  to  say 
^ from  the  check  we  made  of  it,  have  accumulated  quite  a little  property 
during  the  years.  We  approached  the  matter  from  this  standpoint  as  to 

what?  As  to  the  desirability,  of  these  conditions  for  these  men.  For 

example,  when  we  take  a trainman  he  is  absolutely  unskilled  so  far  as 
our  business  is  concerned.  In  fact,  the  business  of  operating  a street  car 
is  at  best  but  a semi-skilled  occupation.  We  take  those  men  and  we 
put  them  in  school  for  a period  of  two  weeks,  and  if  at  the  end  of  that 
time  they  qualify,  they  are  put  in  the  service  then  as  extra  men.  Now, 

take  this  particular  occupation  and  , compare  it  with  any  other  occupation 

I which  any  man  who  is  not  a skilled  artisan  would  care  to  enter  into, 
? the  question  was  as  to  what  the  man  entering  into  this  employment 
; should  have,  should  be  paid  as  compared  to  other  employments  which 
I are  open  to  them.  That  is,  to  take  for  instance,  young  fellows  who 
j are  unmarried,  whom  you  might,  say  are  practically  foot-loose,  they  will 
jj  take  the  first  position  that  they  can  get,  and  I found  this,  that  we  had 
I in  our  train  service  at  that  time  probably  3,300,  of  which  2,650  were 
I regular  men  and  650  were  extra  men.  Now,  we  found  that  in  addition 


786  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


lo  the  number  of  new  men  that  we  would  employ  from  year  to  year, 
which  would  range  from  six  hundred  to  eight  hundred  men,  that  we 
would  have  annually  more  than  twenty-five  hundred  applications  for 
employment,  which  we  were  not  able  to  fill  or  give  places  to,  and  in 
addition  to  this  twenty-five  hundred  extra  applications,  we  had  fully  two 
hundred  applications  per  month  that  we  did  not  receive  owing  to  the 
fact  that  we  did  not  consider  the  men  suitable  for  our  train  service. 
These  men  begin  and  the  average  wage  of  the  extra  man  on  our  system 
is  in  excess  of  fifty-five  dollars  a month,  and  it  runs  from  there  as  high 
as  $1,300  per  year,  or  a little  over  $100  a month.  Our  best  men,  at  the 
top,  having  the  best  runs  which  they  select  themselves,  according  to 
their  seniority  and  their  highest  wage.  That  was  under  the  old  scale, 
when  the  maximum  was  thirty  cents  and  the  minimum  twenty-two; 
under  the  new  scale  the  maximum  is  thirty-two  cents  an  hour,  and  it 
will  be  a different  question.  We  took  up  this  question  of  the  relative 
cost  of  living,  the  relative  increased  cost  of  living  as  compared  wdth  the 
increase  in  wages  during  the  last  twenty  years  and  going  back  (at  that 
time  the  wages  of  the  men  were  seventeen  cents  an  hour  as  compared 
with  thirty  cents  an  hour  allowed  them  by  the  board),  and  we  found 
that  the  increase  per  annum  of  w'ages  of  the  men  on  the  South  Side  system 
here,  had  been  in  excess  of  the  cost  of  living,  as  shown  by  the  United 
States  Government  reports-  upon  all  the  various  commodities,  including 
the  common  necessities  and  some  of  the  luxuries  of  life. 

Q.  Your  average  wage  is  something  like  $72  per  month?  A.  For  all 
men,  including  the  unskilled  men  at  the  barn  that  have  the  low  wage  of 
$1.90.  It  would  not  be  the  average  wage  paid  the  trainmen,  because  they 
draw  higher  compensation.  You  see,  there  is  quite  a difference  in  the 
classes;  you  take  the  trainmen  and  the  barnmen,  the  unskilled  men  at  the 
barn.  If  you  w-anted  to  get  everything  accurate,  you  would  take  the 
average  of  each,  but  the  average  fellow,  the  man  unskilled  as  well  as  those 
who  are  in  the  train  service  work — those  who  work  at  repairing  the  cars — 
are  more  skilled  than  those  who  do  the  car  cleaning;  the  average  of  those 
is  $71.50  per  month. 

Q.  You  see,  Mr.  Busby,  in  justice  to  yourself  and  also  in  justice  to 
the  employed,  I am  building  up  a composite  man;  here  is  your  composite 
man;  he  is  getting  $71  a month,  upon  which  amount  of  money  it  is  a' 

pretty  hard  matter  for  him  to  support  a wife  and  family  in  the  city  of 

Chicago;  now,  what  is  the  effect  upon  society  as  a whole,  Mr.  Busby,  of 

paying  the  average  man  a less  wage  than  he  can  marry  and  support  a 

family  on?  A.  Well,  one  of  two  things:  if  a man  is  already  married,  he 
has  to  exercise  very  strict  economy;  if  he  is  not  married,  he  probably  will 
defer  marrying  for  some  time.  I think  there  is  a tendency  at  this  time 
for  that. 

Q.  If  he  already  is  married,  in  the  exercise  of  that  economy  is  it 
necessary  for  him  to  go  to  the  point  of  depriving  his  children  of  a proper 
education  and  perhaps  of  sufficient  wholesome  food?  A.  With  our  em- 
ployes, I don’t  think  so.  You  take  the  average  of  $71.50  a month — that 
is  about  $850  per  year.  Now,  I don’t  theorize  about  these  things;  I am 
not  theorizing  with  reference  to  them;  I can  only  speak  of  the  facts  about 
which  I know;  our  men  do  not  live  in  an  uncomfortable  way;  they  are  not 
underfed.  We  had  a large  number  of  them  there  when  that  question  was 
brought  up,  and  they  afforded  quite  a little  bit  of  amusement  from  time 
to  time.  Some  of  the  men  that  were  on  the  stand  would  state  that  they 
were  spending  considerably  more  money  than  they  made,  and  according 
to  the  schedule  cost  of  living  they  evidently  could  not  live  on  that,  and 
were  insufficiently  fed,  while  they  were  ranging  in  weight  anywhere  from 
175  pounds  to  upwards  of  300,  which  put  a somewhat  humorous  tinge 
for  a moment  on  that  question.  No,  the  question  of  living  is,  of  course, 
one,  as  I take  it,  for  the  individual  family.  There  is  not  any  question  but 
what  a family  will  live  better  on  eight  hundred  dollars  a year  than 
another  family  will  on  eleven  hundred  dollars  a year.  It  gets  down  to 
be  a problem  for  the  individual;  that  is,  assuming  that  the  wage  is  suffi- 
cient to  live  on,  to  rent  a cottage  or  an  apartment,  or  a small  flat,  and  to 
live  as  an  American  workman  is  expected  to  live,  and  the  children  to  be 
dressed  as  they  should  be  dressed,  and  go  to  school,  and  attach  them- 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


787 


selves  to  our  school  system.  1 think  it  requires  economy,  but  thousands 
of  our  men  do  it,  and  have  been  doing  it. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  a minimum  wage  for  women  fixed  by  law?  A. 
I have  not  been  a student  of  that  question,  because  we  employ,  all  told, 
only  thirty  women,  and  I think  that  the  minimum  wage  there — and  there 
are  only  three  or  four  of  those — is  $40  per  month,  and  it  runs  from  that 
to  $75  a month. 


Whereupon,  there  being  no  more  witnesses  to  be 
mittee  adjourned  subject  to  the  call  of  the  chair. 


heard,  the  Com- 


I 


4 

0‘ 


SESSION  XXIX 


I 1 Continuing  its  labors  under  renewed  authority  conferred  upon 

' i it  by  the  Upper  House  of  the  Forty -ninth  General  Assembly,  the 
Committee  inaugurates  at  Alton  a series  of  public  hearings  to  be 
> I held  in  Illinois  cities  previously  visited  by  its  investigators.  Wit- 

^ I nesses  at  Alton  generally  agreed  that  existing  laws,  when  enforced, 

: j are  sufficient  to  abolish  commercialized  vice  in  municipalities.  Tes- 

f timony  of 

Mr.  C.  F.  Trick,  Clerk  to  the  Committee, 
j Mr.  Joseph  J.  Mullen,  Chief  of  Police. 

Mrs.  Anna  J.  Wilkinson,  Vigilant  Improvement  Association. 

I ‘ Dr.  Mather  Pfeiffenberger,  physician. 

Mr.  W.  C.  Gates,  dry  goods  merchant. 

Mr.  E.  E.  Campbell,  publisher  Alton  Daily  Times, 

Mr.  John  McAdams,  publisher  Alton  Telegraph. 

I Mr.  Paul  B.  Cousley,  editor  Alton  Telegraph, 

j Mrs.  Sophia  DeMuth,  police  matron. 

Senator  Edmond  Beall,  Mayor  of  Alton. 

( Mrs.  Rose  Gillespie,  City  Milk  and  Food  Inspector. 

|j  Mr.  John  Coleman,  business  agent  Glass  Blowers’  Union. 

j Alton,  Illinois,  September  11,  1915,  10:00  A.  M. 

i The  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  met  in  the  court  house  at 
I Alton,  there  being  present  Chairman  O’Hara,  Senator  Beall  and 
I,  Senator  Woodard,  and  the  following  proceedings  were  had : 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  This 
I is  a regular  meeting  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee,  created  by  the 
Forty-eighth  General  Assembly  and  continued  in  power  and  authority  by 

I the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly.  This  Committee  was  appointed  for 
the  purpose  of  studying  moral  conditions  in  the  State  of  Illinois  and  re- 

II  porting  to  the  Legislature  such  recommendations  as,  in  the  judgment  of 
I the  Committee,  look  toward  the  reduction  and  elimination  of  the  menaces 
f to  and  perils  of  our  girlhood  and  womanhood.  The  Committee  during  the 

I last  two  years  has  been  carrying  on  a quiet  investigation  throughout 
different  parts  of  the  State,  some  fifteen  or  twenty  cities  having  been 
covered  in  all.  This  is  the  first  of  a series  of  public  meetings  which  it  is 
purposed  to  hold  in  the  various  communities  visited  by  our  investigators, 
'j'  We  solicit  the  frank  opinions  of  citizens  generally  and  the  benefit  of  their 
;:i  judgment  in  the  framing  of  recommendations  within  the  scope  of  the 
‘i  Committee’s  inquiry.  The  Committee  desires  it  understood  that  because 
II  of  the  peculiar  position  of  Senator  Beall,  a member  of  the  Committee  and 
.i  at  the  present  time  mayor  of  the  city  of  Alton,  it  was  not  deemed  ad- 
iij  visable  to  consult  him  in  the  details  of  a secret  inquiry  into  conditions 
J in  the  city  of  which  he  is  the  responsible  head.  The  inquiry  in  Alton 
,*  was,  in  short,  conducted  as  in  other  cities,  without  the  knowledge  of  local 
1 authorities.  The  Committee  at  this  session  hopes  to  determine  if  the 
‘ strict  application  of  the  existing  laws  of  the  State  of  Illinois,  when  prop- 
'!  erly  enforced  in  any  community  by  the  regularly  elected  officers  of  that 
! community,  are  sufficient  to  correct  the  moral  problems  and  the  vice 
ii  situation  in  general.  • 

! SENATOR  WOODARD:  The  question  we  wish  decided  is  whether 
j the  law  has  been  enforced  or  whether  it  can  be  enforced.  One  thing  we 
need  is  an  institution  in  which  to  place  the  inmates  driven  from  houses 
of  ill  repute,  a place  of  shelter  for  them  and  a place  for  them  to  lay  their 
j heads.  _ This  is  the  question  now  in  the  minds  of  the  members  of  this 
I Committee  and  we  desire  if  possible  in  the  future  to  make  laws  to  provide 
for  these  institutions  and  a place  for  these  inmates  to  go  to  to  be  treated 

789 


790 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


and  to  give  them  work  to  do  and  to  interest  them,  instead  of  permitting 
them  to  lead  idle  lives.  In  that  way,  perhaps,  we  may  better  conditions. 

Mr.  C.  F.  Trick’s  Testimony. 

C.  F.  TRICK,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined 
and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Your  name?  A.  C.  F.  Trick. 

Q.  You  .are  employed  by  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee,  Mr. 
Trick?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Working  under  your  direction  have  been  investigators?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Have  any  of  those  investigators  visited  the  city  of  Alton?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state,  very  briefly,  what  the  report  of  those  investigators 
has  been  as  to  the  moral  conditions  in  Alton?  A.  Report  was  made  in 
detail;  briefly,  it  was  to  the  effect  that  conditions  in  Alton  had  been  as 
bad  as  those  in  any  city  in  the  State.  A “clean-up”  had  been  accomplished, 
however,  in  the  present  year,  and  in  June  our  investigators  were  unable 
to  locate  anywhere  the  so-called  sporting  houses  and  rooms  of  ill  repute. 

Q.  Did  the  investigators  have  anything  to  report  as  to  the  enforce- 
ment of  law  in  Alton  at  the  time  of  their  last  visit?  A.  Yes;  that  in 
conversation  with  many  citizens  interviewed  by  them  they  found  all  agreed 
that  law  enforcement  was  actually  a fact  in  Alton. 

Q.  You  are  acquainted  with  Senator  Beall,  now  mayor  of  the  city  of 
Alton?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  instructions  from  Senator  Beall,  now  Mayor 
Beall,  as  to  the  Investigation  in  Alton?  A.  No,  sir. 

■ Q.  From  whom  did  you  receive  your  instructions?  A.  From  the 
chairman  of  the  Committee. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  investigators  consult  with  AIa3’Or  Beall?  A.  They 
were  instructed  not  to  do  so. 

Q.  And,  as  far  as  you  are  informed,  they  did  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Joseph  J.  Mullen’s  Testimony. 

JOSEPH  J.  MULLEN,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Cornmittee, 
being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  was  examined  and  testified  as 
follows; 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name  please?  A.  Joseph  J. 
Mullen. 

Q.  You  are  employed  by  the  city  of  Alton?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  capacity?  A.  As  chief  of  police. 

Q.  How  long  have  j'ou  held  that  office?  A.  Since  the  first  of  May, 

1915. 

Q.  Before  that,  your  occupation  was  what?  A.  W’ith  the  Illinois 
Glass  Company  as  chief  superintendent  of  blow  factories. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Alton?,  A.  Born  and  raised  here, 
fifty-two  years. 

Q.  You  w'ere  appointed  by  whom?  A.  Mayor  Beall. 

Q.  Briefly,  what  were  the  instructions  given  you  as  to  the  enforce- 
ment of  law  in  Alton?  A.  Well,  my  instructions  were,  upon  assuming 
the  duties  of  my  office,  to  strictly  enforce  the  State  law  in  regard  to 
saloons;  that  is,  the  closing  of  saloons  on  Sundays.  Previous  to  that  time 
the  saloons  remained  open  on  Sundays  and  the  back  doors  were  open. 
As  long  as  I can  remember,  they  have  not  closed  on  Sundaj's  until  the 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


791 


first  of  May.  Now  the  saloons  close  at  12  o’clock  Saturday  night  and 
remain  closed  until  5 o’clock  Monday  morning. 

Q.  Has  that  instruction  been  obeyed?  A.  I think  so.  I have  not 
had  any  complaints. 

Q.  How  did  the  saloon  owners  accept  the  enforcement  of  the  law? 
A.  Well,  at  first  there  were  some  objections.  They  did  not  make  obje.c- 
itions  to  me,  but  they  did  not  like  the  idea  of  closing  on  Sunday.  They 
are  now  a unit,  however,  and  feel  the  saloons  should  be  closed. 

Q.  Would  you  have  the_  Committee  understand.  Chief,  that  the  law 
as  regards  the  saloons  is  being  strictly  and  entirely  enforced  in  Alton? 
A.  I think  so,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge.  I make  trips  around  the 
city  on  Sundays  and  the  curtains  are  all  drawn  so  you  can  see  in. 

Q.  In  this  enforcement  of  the  law,  do  you  wish  the  Committee  to 
understand  that  the  police  have  the  co-operation  of  the  saloonkeepers? 
A.  Yes,  I am  sure  they  have. 

Q.  How  about  the  general  sentiment  of  the  citizens?  A.  Yes,  the 
•general  sentiment  of  the  best  citizens  is  to  co-operate. 

Q.  Now,  Chief,  when  you  were  appointed,  what  was  your  instruction 
from  the  mayor  concerning  the  enforcement  of  the  so-called  vice  laws? 
A.  Well,  my  instruction  was  this:  that  if  I knew  of  any  so-called  houses 
of  ill  fame  in  this  city,  or  if  any  attempted  to  start  in  this  city,  the  police 
were  to  stop  their  business  at  once,  I was  to  bring  the  inmates  in,  arrest 
•them  and  prosecute  them. 

Q.  At  that  time.  Chief,  did  the  records  of  the  police  department  show 
the  existence  of  any  house  of  ill  repute  in  Alton?  A.  On  the  first  of 
May  the  houses  that  we  termed  houses  of  ill  fame  had  closed.  Mayor 
Beall  had  issued  an  order  to  them  previous  to  his  coming  into  office  that 
!if  they  were  not  closed  on  the  first  day  of  May,  that  he  would  issue  orders 
to  the  chief  of  police  to  raid  them  and  close  them  up.  I found  on  the  first 
[of  May  that  they  had  all  closed  up. 

! Q.  On  the  first  day  of  May,  do  you  wish  the  Committee  to  under- 
stand that,  as  far  as  you  know,  there  were  no  public  houses  open?  A. 
Yes,  that  is  the  condition  I found  on  the  first  day  of  May. 

Q.  I presume  the  records  of  the  police  department  go  back  a year 
or  two  or  longer,  so  that  from  those  records  you  would  be  in  a position 
to  inform  the  Committee  as  to  the  number  of  houses  that  had  existed 
prior  to  that  time  in  the  city  of  Alton?  A.  Yes,  I guess  I could.  The 
■ecords  would  only  show  in  one  particular. 

Q.  What  is  that?  A.  The  recor-ds  would  show  when  inmates  were 
irrested  and  fined. 

I Q.  From  your  understanding  and  knowledge,  how  many  public  houses 
lid  exist  in  the  city  of  Alton  prior  to  May  1,  1915?  A.  I am  not  positive, 
iput  I think  it  was  four  or  five. 

! 0.  What  would  you  estimate  the  number  of  inmates  of  these  houses? 

I could  not  speak  truthfully  on  that  because  I do  not  know,  but 
)robably  they  would  average  four  or  five  to  each  house. 

Q.  Then  you  would  estimate  the  number  of  inmates  as  somewhere 
)etween  twenty  or  thirty?  A.  Probably,  yes. 

Q.  What  has  become  of  these  women?  A.  Well,  some  of  them 
lave  left  the  city,  and  I have  been  informed  that  there  are  others  that 
re  still  here,  working  out  at  the  cartridge  works;  some  are  boarding  here 
nd  some  are  living  here. 

I Q.  What  have  you  to  say  regarding  the  present  conduct  of  these  girls? 

I have  not  had  any  occasion  to  caution  the  girls  about  their  actions 
nd  I have  not  had  any  complaints  from  officers.  The  complaints  that 
ve  have  mostly  now  are  rather  about  girls  that  come  here  from  other 
laces.  They  are  working  out  at  the  cartridge  works,  and  sometimes 
hey  do  not  wok.  They  lay  off.  I have  not,  since  I assumed  office,  found 
ny  girls  here  I have  had  cause  to  arrest. 

Q.  Then,  as  far  as  you  know,  the  women  that  were  formerly  in  your 


I 


792  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


public  houses  are  behaving  themselves;  they  are  not  at  least  violating  the 
laws  in  such  a manner  as  to  bring  them  to  your  notice?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ordered  any  women  from  the  city  of  Alton?  A.  Yes. 

sir. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  I think  about  ten. 

Q.  Why  did  you  order  them  from  the  city,  Chief?  A.  Well,  there 
were  complaints  sent  to  the  police  department  about  houses  causing  dis- 
turbances, especially  at  night  time,  and  I had  officers  inspect  the  com- 
plaints and.  found  these  houses  were  a menace  to  the  neighborhood.  In 
fact,  I was  in  two  or  three  raids  myself  and  w'e  brought  them  in  and 
found  that  they  were  girls  of  bad  repute  who  had  men  coming  there 
and  they  w-ere  making  it  a business,  an  assignation  house  or  house  of 
ill  fame. 

Q.  In  those  cases  you  ordered  the  girls  to  leave  the  city?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  comply  in  every  case?  A.  Some  have,  and  some  have 
not.  They  moved  from  the  neighborhood  they  were  in. 

Q.  When  you  ordered  them  from  the  city  and  they  complied  with 
your  instructions,  where  did  they  go?  A.  Well,  some  of  them  go  back 
to  their  homes,  where  they  come  from. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  that?  A.  Some  of  them  came  to  look 
for  work.  Of  course,  they  all  say  that;  and  I always  inquire  where  they 
come  from,  and  they  tell  me,  and  when  w'e  have  occasion  to  order  them 
to  leave  the  city,  we  order  them  back  to  wffiere  they  came  from.  At  least, 
we  try  to. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  in  every  case  the  girls  have  homes?  A.  Well, 
no;  not  in  every  case  I don’t.  I have  to  depend  upon  just  what  they  tell  us 

Q.  Where  do  most  of  these  girls  come  from?  A.  Well,  most  ol 
them  come  from  small  towns  around  here — Winchester,  Litchfield,  Hills; 
boro  and  Louisiana,  Afissouri.  Two  came  from  Louisiana,  Alissouri 
Their  father  is  here  and  a pensioner,  and  it  is  hard  to  order  them  to  leave 
town  immediately.  We  always  encourage  them  in  an  effort  to  have  them 
lead  better  lives. 

Q.  When  you  find  that  they  are  not  going  to  accept  your  advice! 
A.  Then  we  have  to  adopt  stricter  measures  to  make  them  behave.  . 

Q.  You  say  that  most  of  the  girls  that  you  have  come  in  contact  witi 
have  come  from  smaller  towns?  A.  Yes.  Some  were  born  and  raisec 
here,  but  I did  not  know  it. 

Q.  These  girls  that  come  from  smaller  towns,  do  they  come  from 
well-to-do  families?  A.  From  my  observation,  they’  do  not.  From  my 
observation,  they  came  from  fainilies  that  did  not  give  the  girls  any 
opportunity  for  an  education.  As  soon  as  they  were  large  enough,  they 
were  put  to  work.  Alost  of  them  are-  illiterate  and  most  of  them  drink 
I think  drink  is  one  of  the  causes  of  their  downfall. 

Q.  You  would  have  the  Committee  understand.  Chief,  that  most  o 
the  girls  of  this  class  that  you  have  had  experience  with  here  in  Altoi 
come  from  homes  that  are  poor,  where  they  have  not  been  properly 
educated?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  I understand  you  to  say  that  most  of  them  go  to  work  at  ai 
early  age?  A.  Yes,  sir.  ' ' ‘ 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  pay  received  by  them  for  thei 
work?  A.  No,  I could  not  speak  positively^  about  their  pay^  The  onl 
opportunity  I have  to  speak  positively  in  regard  to  pay  is  two  girls 
know  of  that  receive  $1.20  a day"  at  the  cartridge  works,  both  13  years  old. 

Q.  Is  that  not  in  violation  of  the  State  law?  A.  Yes,  sir.  On  th 
advice  of  Miss  Demuth,  I wired  the  factory  inspector  to  come  and  vis; 
the  plant  Wednesday',  and  he  found  that  we  gave  him  the  truth. 

Q.  How  many  girls  are  employed  there.  Chief?  A.  Really  I coul 
not  say.  I guess  in  the  neighborhood  of  six  or  eight  hundred  girls, 
speak  only  from  hearsay. 

Q.  What  are  they'  employed  doing?  A.  Packing  cartridges,  labe 
ing,  etc.  . . ■ 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony  793 

I ' Q.  Cartridges  for  local  consumption?  A.  lNo,  for  all  . over,  I think.  . 
iWar  orders,  they  say;  but  ! do  not  know.  ■ 

i Q.  Have  you  found  ‘present  laws  in  regard  to  the  vice  problem 
adequate,  or  have  you  suggestions  to  make  for  further  and  better  law?? 

Well,  I believe-  the  present  laws,  when  they  are  enforced  strictly,  are 
idequate.  . t:  , , - 

Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  make  as  to  advisable  additional 

Iegislation?  A.  Not  at  present. 

■'  ■ EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Chief,  is  there  any'  relation  between  the 
liquor  question  and  the  vice  question?  A.  Well,  I could  not  say  that 
there  is  any  relation.  All  I found  is  that  most  of  the  girls  or  women'  that 
had  been  brought  into  our  department  were  addicted  to  liquor.  . 

Q.  How  do  they  get  liquor?  A.  Well,  they  can  get  it  at  arty  of  the 
saloons  by  sending  for  it  or  getting  it  by  the  case.  t 

* Q.  Do  they  freqqent  .the  saloons?  A.  No,  I do  not  believe  there 
is  a saloon  in  Alton  that  permits  women  , to  frequent  it. 

Q.  But  previously?  A.  Well,:  there  was  a time  here  that  Alton  had 
wine  rooms,  but  not  lately;  in  fact,  not  for  the  past  six  or  eight  or  ten 
years.  There  was  a time,  though,  that  it  was  a common  thing  to  have 
back  rooms. 

Q.  Are  these  places  over  saloons  or  near  them?  A.  No,  they  are 
back  rooms,  back  of  the  saloons. 

Q.  Did  they  bring  patrons  to  the  saloons?  A.  No,  they  just  merely 
went  in  to  drink,  in  what  is  commonly  called  wine  rooms. 

Q.  W'ould  it  not  be  easier  to  stamp  out  vice  where  there  are  no 
saloons?  A.  Well,  I am  not  in  a position  to  say. 

Q.  What  is  youi  opinion,  as  an  officer?  A.  I found  that  our  gardens 
and  some  of  our  so-called  dance  halls  are  more  of  a detriment  than 
saloons  properly  regulated.  They  are  more  danger  to  the  girls  where 
they  sell  beer  and  have  no  officers  there  to  look  after  them, 
i Q.  Have  you  dance  halls  here?  A.  We  did  have  them  here.  We 
have  gardens  here;  we  have  one  in  the  city  and  one  just  outside  the  city. 

Q.  They  pay  no  city  license?  A.  The  one  outside  does  not;  but  the 
one  here  does;  it  is  inside  the  city  limits.  Since  the  first  of  May  the  one 
in  the  city  has  not  been  permitted  to  sell  liquor  in  the  garden.  Previously 
they  had  waiters  who  carried  the  drinks  from  the  saloon  to  the  gardens, 
but  since  the  first  of  May  the  mayor  notified  them  that  that  practice 
must  cease. 

Q.  They  sell  only  soft  drinks?  A.  Yes,  there  is  no  sale  of  drinks 
jito  anyone  in  the  garden,  but  in  Washington  Garden,  outside  the  city 
llimits,  They  do  not  pay  any  license;  they  pay  a' fine  about  every  quarter. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  would  it  not  be  easier  to  enforce  the  law  if  they 
had  an  institution  to  take  these  girls  to  and  give  them  .some  kind  of, 
jemployment?  A.  Yes,  I think  so.  Yes,  I think  that  is  better  than 
[ordering  them  to  leave,  or  .telling  them  to  get  out,  for  I do  not  think  that 
is  practical.  You  are  not  helping  the  girls  by  ordering  them  out;  you 
are  only  sending  them  to  another  place. 

j Q.  Have  you  jailed  any  under  the  new  law?  A.  No,  we  have  not. 

j Q.  You  just  tell  them  to  clear  out  and  leave?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  necessarily  their  lot  must  be  hard;  they  should  have  some 

Iplace  to  go  and  some  place  for  employment?  A.  I believe  so.  I believe 
Jthere  should  be  some  way  of  making  things  better  for  the  women  to  get 
them  to  lead  better  lives.  You  cannot  help  them  by  telling  them  to 
jget  out. 

ji  EXAMINATION  BY  CHAIRMAN  O’HARA. 

1 CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  no  segregated  district  now?  A. 
JNo.  sir. 


794  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  It  has  been  contended  by  some,  Chief,  that  the  closing  of  the 
segregated  district  scatters  the  inmates  to  the  residential  districts.  Have 
you  found  that  to  be  the  case  in  Alton?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  found  that  the  closing  of  the  district  has  increased  the 
practice  of  vice  in  other  parts  of  the  city  to  any  extent  at  all?  A.  No,  sir 

Q.  Have  you  found  that  the  closing  of  the  segregated  district  ha; 
increased  the  business  of  the  segregated  districts  in  any  of  the  neighboring 
cities?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  know  what  is  meant  by  a “call  girl”  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  “call  girl”  houses  in  Alton?  A.  Not  that  I know  of 

Q.  The  Committee  has  found  in  some  cities  that  women  having 
apartments  have  a list  of  girls  and  women  with  their  telephone  numbers 
and  they  call  the  girls  in.  Have  you  anything  of  that  sort  here?  A.  Not 
that  I know  of. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  such  a practice  in  Alton  to  your  knowledge: 
A.  No,  not  to  my  knowledge. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Chief,  you  remember  you  had  a complaint  of 
a certain  house  on  George  and  Second  Streets,  about  the  girls  that  worked 
in  the  cartridge  factory.  You  investigated  them  and  found  what  they 

were  doing?  A.  Well,  they  told  me  that  when  they  were  ordered  to 

leave  the  segregated  district  and  had  to  leave,  they  sought  employ^ment 
at  the  cartridge  factory,  and  they  moved  some  of  their  baggage  to  the 
Alton  House.  I called  on  the  proprietor  of  the  house  and  had  a talk 

with  him,  and  he  told  me  that  as  long  as  they  remained  there  they  would 

have  to  behave  themselves,  but  if  they  attempted  to  bring  any  male  com- 
panions there  they  would  have  to  get  out.  He  wanted  to  know  if  that 
was  satisfactory  to  me,  and  I told  him  yes,  it  was,  and  that  we  would 
not  arrest  them  or  bother  them  if  they  behaved.  He  said,  as  far  as  he 
had  been  able  to  observe,  they  were  behaving  themselves  there,  and  he 
told  me  that  again  just  about  a week  ago,  and  we  have  an  officer  that 
lives  only  about  two  hundred  feet  from  there  and  he  is  in  a position  to 
observe  whether  there  is  any  disturbance. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  wish  the  Committee  to  understand 
that  in  Alton  you  have  redeemed  those  two  girls  at  least  from  a life  of 
shame  by  closing  the  vice  district?  A.  Yes,  I think  so. 

Q.  We  are  dealing  in  facts.  Can  the  Committee  accurately  report 
to  the  Legislature  that  the  city  of  Alton  has  redeemed  some  of  the  girls 
formerly  in  the  segregated  district?  A.  Well,  I know  of  those  two;  there 
are  probably  others. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  I just  wish  to  ask  Mr.  Mullen:  Were  not  jmur 
instructions  from  me  to  see  that  all  city  ordinances  were  enforced?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Chief,  did  you  make  a financial  sacrifice  in 
accepting  this  position?  A.  I was  getting  $125  a month  and  I resigned 
down  there  about  six  weeks  previous  to  accepting  this  position.  Of  course, 
1 made  a sacrifice  in  a financial  way,  for  I only  get  $95  a month  here. 

Mrs.  Anna  J.  Wilkinson’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  ANNA  J.  WILKINSON,  called  as  a witness  before  the  Com- 
mittee, being  first  duly  sworn  by  Senator  M'oodard,  was  examined  and 
testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  are  a citizen  of  Alton?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  a voter?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  always  vote?  A.  Indeed  I do. 

Q.  With  what  organization  are  you  connected,  kirs.  Wilkinson?  A, 
The  Vigilant  Improvement  Association. 

Q Will  you  tell  the  Committee  something  of  the  moral  condition  of 
Alton  at  the  present  time?  A.  Yes,  I can  as  far  as  I know.  Of  course. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


795 


the  Chief  knows  a great  deal  more  of  it  than  I do.  To  go  back  farther, 
I knew  something  of  it  when  we  had  a segregated  district. 

Q.  What  were  the  conditions  then?  A.  The  V.  I.  A.  started  the 
vice  clean-up.  While  I myself  did  a little  of  the  work,  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Reiss  did  the  major  portion.  On  two  occasions  we  went  to  the  segregated 
district  to  see  if  we  could  do  anything  for  the  girls  before  the  houses 
were  closed;  we  offered  them  a temporary  place  of  abode  if  they  would 
stay  here  and  try  to  do  better.  We  offered  to  send  them  back  to  their 
homes  if  they  wanted  to  go  back  there.  And  we  interviewed,  I suppose 
'all  together,  eight  or  nine  girls. 

I Q.  How  many  girls  were  in  the  district  at  that  time?  A.  I could 
not  tell  you  how  many.  I did  not  gain  admission  to  all  the  houses,  but 
at  the  three  I went  to  I think  there  were  about  twelve  or  thirteen. 

Q.  Of  the  eight  or  nine  you  interviewed,  did  any  accept  your  proffer 
of  help?  A.  No,  they  did  not. 

Q.  The  Chief  has  stated  these  houses  were  closed  the  first  of  May, 
this  year.  A.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  Are  there  any  of  these  rooming  houses  open  at  this  time?  A.  Not 
to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Has  the  closing  of  the  district  resulted  in  spreading  vice?  A. 
According  to  my  knowledge,  it  has  not. 

Q.  Would  you  state  that  positively?  A.  To  the  best  of  my  knowl- 
edge, it  has  not. 

Q.  What  has  happened  to  these  girls  who  were  formerly  in  that 
district?  A.  To  be  honest,  I did  not  know  until  I heard  the  Chief  this 
morning. 

Q.  Have  you,  or  any  members  of  your  Committee,  interviewed  any 
of  the  girls  since  the  closing  of  the  houses?  A.  Not  tliis  spring. 

Q.  Are  the  women  of  Alton  willing  to  help  the  girls?  A.  Not  to  any 
great  extent. 

Q.  Are  they  willing  to  open  their  homes  to  them?  A.  I believe, 
in  a way,  a few  would  for  a very  short  time. 

Q.  What  suggestion  have  you  for  the  Committee  as  regards  laws 
'and  measures  that  will  help  in  the  reduction  of  vice?  A.  Well,  I do  not 
know  whether  a home  provided  for  these  girls  would  come  under  your 
idea  of  a law  or  measure  or  not,  but  that  seems  to  be  the  practical  way 
to  take  care  of  them.  It  is  not  a good  thing  to  take  them  into  homes 
where  there  are  children.  It  is  not  wise  and  it  seems  to  me  there  should 
■be  some  place  where  they  could  be  taken  care  of. 

I Q.  Where  do  these  girls  come  from,  according  to  your  understanding? 
A.  One  said  she  was  from  St.  Louis,  and  two  of  these  girls  were  from 
jjDenver,  and  we  offered  to  provide  their  fare  home,  but  when  the  time 
fcame  they  were  not  ready  to  go.  The  greater  number  of  the  girls  I inter- 
viewed were  from  St.  Louis.  At  that  time  the  segregated  district  at  St. 
Louis  had  been  closed  a short  time,  and  whether  that  was  their  real  home 
or  not  I do  not  know. 

Q.  You  found  then  that  the  closing  of  the  St.  Louis  district  scattered 
the  girls  to  other  cities;  now,  in  turn,  has  the  closing  of  the  Alton  district 
scattered  the  girls  to  other  cities?  A.  I have  no  information  to  bear  on 
that  question. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Do  you  find  there  is  any  relation  between 
vice  and  the  liquor  question.  A.  It  would  seem  to  me  that  there  is. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  easier  to  suppress  vice  where  there 
are  no  saloons?  A.  I should  certainly  think  so. 

Dr.  Mather  PfeiffenbergePs  Testimony. 

; DR.  MATHER  PFEIFFENBERGER,  being  first  duly  sworn  by  Sen- 
ator Woodard,  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 


I 


796  Report  op  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  ^father  Pfeiffen- 
berger. 

Q.  You  are  a physician?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Doctor,  how  long  have  you  lived  in  Alton.  A.  All  my  life. 

Q.  You  have  known  conditions  here;  was  there  ever  a viee  district 
aere  in  Alton?  A^  All  1 know  is  they  sac^  there  was,  and  what  I see  in 
the  newspapers.  There  were  eight  years  I spent  in  St.  Louis. 

Q.  Are.  laws  being  enforced  in  Alton?  A.  To  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  yes. 

Q.  Has  the  closing  of  the  vice  district  in  Alton,  as  far  as  you  have 
been  able  to  observe,  had  any  beneficial  result  upon  the  boys  and  girls 
growing  up?  Has  it  cleared  the  moral  atmosphere?  A.  You  are  not 
getting  at  the  problem  deep  enough  is  my  judgment.  Suppose  you  go 
a little  farther.  We  have  a vocational  education  system  in  the  high 
schools,  where  each  sex  has  to  be  segregated.  They  ought  to  be  taught 
something  about  sex.  Teach  them  a little  less  of  other  useless  things 
and  then  devote  more  time  to  the  most  important  thing  in  their  education. 
There  is  not  a day  passes  or  week  passes  that  there  is  not  a boy  or  a girl 
comes  to  the  doctor’s  office  for  the  information  they  should  have  gotten 
at  home. 

Q.  Why  do  they  go  to  the  doctor?  A.  I do  not  know  why'.  They 
think  he  is  the  one  that  should  tell  them,  I suppose.  I do  not  solicit 
that  class  of  work.  I do  not  do  it.  I cannot  do  clean  obstetrical  work 
and  do  that  work,  too. 

Q.  Is  sex  hygiene  being  taught  in  the  schools  of  Alton?  A.  No,  sir. 
About  three  or  four  years  ago  I got  most  of  the  physicians  to  give  talks, 
and  one  Saturday  I gave  a talk  to  the  teachers  and  superintendent;  that 
was  all  the  farther  it  got.  The  schools  here  gave  medical  instruction, 
to  be  exact,  one  year  only  and  then  they  dropped  it. 

EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  What,  in  your  judgment,  would  be  the 
best  manner  of  getting  public  sentiment  running  in  order  to  have  the  sex 
question  taught?  A.  Well,  I think  from  the  organization  of  the  Vigilant 
Improvement  Association,  the  organization  we  have  in  town. 

Q.  Has  it  been  taken  up  with  them?  A.  . Not  that  I know  of;  no.  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  would  be  most  willing  workers?  A.  They 
ought  to  be  the  most  wdlling  workers.  There  is  a field  there  for  some- 
body. Yes,  sir,  a big  field,  and  they  could  get  all  the  support  they 
wanted  from  the  educational  department  of  the  American  Medical  Asso- 
ciation. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  We  are  very-  much  obliged  to  you,  doctor, 
for  your  testimony.  Have  you  any  further  recommendations  for  the 
benefit  of  the  Committee?  A.  The  only  recommendation  is  getting  at 
the  root  of  the  thing  and  beginning  the  thing  properly.  Sex  hygiene 
should  certainly  be  taught  in  the  schools.  I know  of  cases  of  venereal 
diseases  in  the  high  schools. 

Q.  Many  cases?  A.  No,  just  a few  cases  reported  to  me. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Both  sexes?  A.  No,  just  one. 

Q.  Have  you  any  figures  as  to  the  prevalence  of  the  disease  in 
Alton?  A.  Not  in  Alton;  only'  general  figures  for  the  entire  country. 
I could  not  say  in  this  community  because  I do  not  take  that  class  of 
work. 

Mr.  W.  C.  Gates’  Testimony. 

W.  C.  GATES,  called  as  a witness  by  the  Committee,  being  duly 
sworn  by  Senator  Beall,  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  W.  C.  Gates. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


797 


Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Gates?  A.  Dry  goods  merchant. 

Q.  And  the  name  of  your  company?  A.  Gates  Dry  Goods  Company. 
Q.  Is  that  a corporation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  president?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  held  that  position?  A.  Eight  years. 

Q.  You  employ  girls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  I have  seventeen  today. 

Q.  What  is  the  lowest  wage  paid  to  any  of  the  seventeen?  A.  I 
have  one  we  pay  $5. 

i;  Q.  And  the  highest  wage?  A.  Eighteen  dollars, 
j Q.  And  the  average?  A.  About  $9.65. 

j Q.  Have  you  ever  conducted  an  investigation  of  your  own  to  ascer- 
! tain  the  lowest  amount  upon  which  a girl  or  woman  could  live  in  the 
‘city  of  Alton?  A.  No,  because  I have  never  had  anybody  in  my  employ 
■ who  was  entirely  dependent  upon  th.e  salary. 

Q.  What  do  you  estimate  the  lowest  amount  a girl,  or  woman,  could 
live  on  in  the  city  of  Alton,  if  she  were  self-dependent?  A.  Well,  I do 
not  see  how  she  could  get  by  with  less  than  six  or  seven  dollars  a week, 
r Q.  Would  it  be  difficult  to  do  it  on  that  amount?  A.  Yes,  I sup- 
1 pose  so. 

Q.  You  think  a girl  could  live  comfortably  on  six  or  seven  dollars 
I a week?  A.  I suppose  seven  would  be  the  minimum. 

' Q.  How  many  have  you  getting  less  than  seven  dollars  a week? 
A.  Just  one. 

Q.  How  old  is  this  girl?  A.  Seventeen  years. 

Q.  How  long  has  she  been  with  you?  A.  Three  months.  She 
is  in  the  apprentice  class,  and  will  be  raised  the  first  of  October. 

; Q.  Raised  to  seven  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

' Q.  And  by  that  time  she  will  have  been  in  your  employ  seven 
. months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Gates,  there  has  been  suggested  the  advisability  of  a law 
requiring  business  men  to  pay  all  girls,  with  the  exception  of  those  in 
the  apprentice  class,  at  least  a living  wage,  a living  wage  being  the  amount 
of  money  on  which  she  can  reasonably  live  in  the  community  in  which 
she  is  employed;  I understand  from  your  testimony  jmu  are  voluntarily 
following  that  plan?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  as  a business  man,  the  enactment  of  that  which 
is  custom  with  you  into  a law  for  the  guidance  of  all,  would  be  advisable? 
A.  I would  not  favor  it  much.  While  I believe  in  it  personally,  there 

I are  many  instances  where  any  such  amount  or  any  set  price  would  be, 
in  my  judgment,  a detriment  to  the  girls  who  might  be  employed.  For 
instance,  you  make  seven  dollars  a week  or  eight  dollars  a week  a mini- 
mum wage.  There  are  many  merchants  who  could  employ  five  girls  and 
give  them  $6  a week.  Those  girls  could  get  along  very  nicely  on  that  $6 
j a week.  Inasmuch  as  they  had  homes  and  spent  more  for  dress  than  on 
I general  living.  If  the  same  were  paid  $8  a week,  the  same  man  could  not 
employ  the  same  number  of  girls. 

Q.  Do  you  come  in  competition  with  large  mail-order  house  in  the 
' large  cities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  take  any  of  your  business  from  you?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  Some  of  those  houses  may  pay  less  than  a living  wage.  Would 
a state  law  requiring  all  employers  to  pay  a living  wage,  to  pay  the  same 
; wage  you  are  paying,  help  you  in  that  connection?  A.  It  would  be  a 
benefit  to  me  personally.  I would  be  strictly  in  favor  of  such  a law.  I 
■ question  the  advisability  of  it  for  all,  though,  but  for  me  it  would  be  a 
; benefit. 

Q.  What  are  the  general  moral  conditions  in  Alton?  A.  Very 
I much  better'  than  they  were. 

Q.  Are  the  laws  being  enforced  in  Alton  today?  A.  So  tar  as  1 
know,  yes.  _ 


I 


798 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Q.  Has  the  strict  enforcement  of  law  in  Alton  cleared  the  moral 
atmosphere?  A.  It  has  made  us  feel  easier. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  of  any  ^irls  in  Alton  going  wrong  since  the 
laws  were  enforced?  A.  Personally,  no. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  matter  of  wages  has  anything  to  do  with  girls 
going  wrong?  A.  In  a measure. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  man  who  pays  less  than  a living  wage  to 
the  girl  is  at  all  responsible  for  her  moral  downfall?  A.  In  a meas- 
ure, yes. 

Q.  As  an  eniployer,  could  you  sleep  with  a clear  conscience  if  you 
paid  less  than  a living  wage?  A.  I would  not  want  to  pay  less  than  that 
at  all,  whether  I could  sleep  or  not. 

Mr.  E.  E.  Campbell’s  Testimony. 

E.  E.  CAMPBELL,  being  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Woodard,  was 
examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  E.  E.  Campbell. 

Q.  You  are  a publisher,  Mr.  Campbell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Alton?  A.  Six  years. 

Q.  You  are  the  publisher  of  what  newspaper?  A.  The  Alton  Daily 
Times. 

Q.  You  have  been  familiar  with  conditions  here  during  the  last  six- 
years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  ■ the  general  moral  condition  of  Alton  at  the  present 
time?  A.  Well,  I think  it  is  better  than  at  any  time  during  the  last 
six  years. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  Well,  the  saloons  are  closed  on  Sunday  and, 
so  far  as  I am  advised,  there  is  no  segregated  vice  district. 

Q.  Has  all  this  had  a wholesome  influence  on  the  town?  A.  Un- 
doubtedly. 

Q.  Has  it  helped  business?  A.  I think  so. 

Q.  Has  it  helped  the  advertising  business?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  there  any  public  houses  of  vice  in  Alton  at  the  present  time? 
A.  Not  according  to  my  information. 

Q.  Are  there  any  so-called  call-girl  houses?  A.  Not  that  I know  of. 

Q.  During  the  six  years  that  you  have  been  her'fe  have  there  ever  been 
any  public  houses?  A.  Yes;  there  were  a group  over  on  Piasa  Street, 
three  or  four,  I should  say. 

Q.  How  many  women  would  you  say  were  inmates?  A.  I have 
never  heard. 

Q.  What  has  become  of  the  women  who  once  were  employed  there? 
A.  I do  not  know. 

Q.  What  is  the  street  talk?  A.  The  street  talk  is  that  they  have 
left  town. 

Q.  Have  been  run  out  of  town?  A.  I do  not  know.  They  have 
left  Alton,  and  that  is  sufficient. 

Q.  Does  our  moral  responsibility  end  when  they'  have  been  driven 
from  our  particular  community?  A.  I do  not  think  so;  but  I think 
most  of  these  women  came  from  other  places.  I do  not  remember  of 
hearing  that  any  of  them  -were  Alton  girls.  I think  they'  came  here  to 
engage  in  business,  and  then  when  the  district  was  closed  they  left  town. 

Q.  Mr.  Campbell,  I wish  you  would  give  the  committee  the  benefit 
of  your  experience  and  knowledge  of  measures  that  inight  help,  not  only  • 
Alton,  but  other  communities  in  the  state  of  Illinois.  A.  \\'ell,  your 
question  is  rather  broad.  Governor,  and  then  I have  never  aspired  to 
be  in  the  legislature  and  know  little  about  it,  except  what  I see  in  the 
newspapers. 


Public  Meetings  and  Testimony 


799 


Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  as  to  measures  that  might  reduce 
he  number  of  girls  in  the  industry  of  prostitution?  A.  No,  that  is  too  big 
1 problem  for  me. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  it  is  morally  right  to  send  these  girls  from 
)ne  district  to  another?  A.  No. 

Q.  Would  you  recommend  the  opening  of  homes  for  these  women 
[vhen  they  desire  to  reform?  A.  Well,  1 do  not  know.  Governor. 
There  are  some  questions  that  a newspaper  man,  being  busy,  does  not 
hink  much  about.  I have  read  some  of  the  Rockefeller  ideas,  but  have 
|iot  had  much  time  to  think  about  them.  I think  the  Mann  Act,  pre- 
senting them  going  from  one  state  to  another,  is  an  excellent  law. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  wages  paid  working  girls  in 
Uton?  A.  Well,  in  a general  way  I know  something  about  it. 

Q.  Would  you  say  the  average  working  girl  in  Alton  receives  in 
teturn  for  her  services  a living  wage?  A.  No,  I think  most  of  the 
[iris  who  work  live  at  home  and  could  not  live  if  they  had  to  pay 
)oard. 

Q.  It  has  been  suggested  by  some  of  the  persons  before  this  Com- 
hittee  that  a law  be  enacted  compelling  the  employers  to  pay  a living 
,vage;  would  you  favor  that  enactment?  A.  I never  gave  it  much 
bought.  Governor.  If  it  is  right,  I should  approve  of  it.  I have  op- 
losed  the  girls  working  for  less  than  a living  wage..  I am  a strong 
leliever  in  labor  unions.  It  seems  to  me  there  has  been  more  accom- 
llished  in  that  way  than  in  any  other  way.  It  seems  to  me  that  if  the 
iromen  would  organize  in  that  way,  as  effectively  as  they  do  polit- 
pally,  it  would  be  a success. 

; Q.  Have  you  any  labor  unions  among  the  women  of  Alton?  A.  I 
jhink  so. 

, Q.  Are  they  opposed  by  the  employers?  A.  I do  not  think  so. 

Q.  The  employers  encourage  the  organization?  A.  I would  not 
ay  they  encourage  it,  but  I think  they  expect  it.  One  laundry  is  or- 
anized,  and  they  try  to  get  business  on  that  basis, 
i Q.  You  have  lived  here  six  years  and  know  what  it  costs  to  live, 

laving  that  in  mind,  what  would  you  say  a girl  ought  to  be  paid  in 

eturn  for  her  services?  A.  Well,  if  she  had  to  pay  her  board,  she 
ught  to  have  $15  a week  at  least,  entirely  dependent. 

I Q.  And  the  man  with  one  child  and  a wife  should  have  how  much, 
>1  your  judgment?  A.  He  should  have  $150  a month.  A single  man 
hould  get  along  on  $15  a week.  It  used  to  be  the  theory  that  two  per- 
Dns  could  live  as  cheaply  as  one,  but  I know  better. 

* Q.  You  have  tried  it?  A.  I have  tried  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  average  wage  is  at  the  present  time  in 

I.lton?  A.  For  girls? 

Q.  Yes,  for  girls.  A.  No,  I do  not.  I suppose  in  some  cases  it 

as  low  as  $5  or  $6  and  in  some  places  as  high  as  $10  to  $11.  I know 

Dme  girls  at  the  Western  Cartridge  Company  who  make  $12  a week, 
hey  are  experts  in  their  line. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know  all  laws  are  being  enforced  at  the  present 
me?  A.  Yes,  they  are  being  enforced  so  much  better  at  the  present 
me  than  before  that  we  all  say  they  are  being  enforced. 

Ir.  John  McAdams’  Testimony. 

JOHN  McADAMS,  being  duly  sworn  by  Senator  Woodard,  was 
camined,  and  testified  as  follows: 

; EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  McAdams. 
Q.  Your  occupation,  Mr.  McAdams?  A.  Newspaper  publisher. 

Q.  Of  what  newspaper?  A.  Alton  Evening  Telegraph. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  the  publisher?  A.  Well,  with  my 
iirtner,  we  have  been  the  publishers  of  the  paper  for  the  last  twelve 
!ars.  The  paper  has  been  published  for  the  last  seventy-eight  years. 


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Q.  You  are  familiar  with  conditions  in  the  city  of  Alton?  A. 
think  so,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  present  moral  condition  in  the  city  of  Alton,  a 
you  have  observed  it?  A.  I think.  Governor,  that  it  is  good.  Com 
paring  it  with  other  cities.  1 think  it  is  splendid.  I believe  there  ar 
loads  of  work  still  to  be  accomplished  which  cannot  be  done  by  a polic 
force? 

Q.  Are  the  laws  being  enforced  at  the -present  time?  A.  Yes,  sii 
as  far  as  I know. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know,  all  the  laws  are  being  enforced?  A. 
think  SO’;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  still  work  to  be  done?  A.  In  this  waj',  I think  w 
are  not  yet  done  with  many  of  these  women  who  were  openl3'  runnin 
houses  of  prostitution  before  the  laws  were  enforced.  For  instance,  \v 
have  knowledge  that  there  are  w'omen  \vho  still  practice  prostitutior 
We  know  of  one  specific  instance  of  a woman  here  who  goes  out  o 
trips  with  men. 

Q.  Where  does  she  go?  A.  Well,  to  St.  Louis  and  other  cities 
not  long  ago  she  went  to  Peoria. 

Q.  When  she  goes  to  St.  Louis,  she  crosses'  the  State  line,  an 

her  case  falls  under  the  Mann  Act?  A.  Yes,  but  St.  Louis  is  ver 

close  here.  She  goes  dowm  alone,  and  a man  meets  here  there.-  Sh 
leaves  here  alone. 

Q.  This  is  not  practiced  in  Alton?  A.  The  woman  meets  the  ma 
in  Alton  and  makes  an  engagement  to  meet  him  in  some  other  cip 
That  is  the  idea. 

Q.  It  has  been  suggested  by  some  witnesses  before  this  Commi 
tee  that  the  state  apply,  in  the  cases  of  women  being  taken  from  on 

couiity  to  another,  a law  similar  to  the  klann  Act,  preventing  the  takin 

of  women  from  one  state  to  another.  How*  would  3'ou  regard  such 
law?  A.  I am  in  favor  of  that.  Governor.  I am  stronglv-  in  favor  of  i 

Q.  If  such  a bill  were  presented  to  the  legislature,  3'our  newspapt 
would  support  it?  A.  I think  we  would  support  it. 

Q;  Have  you  any  suggestions  of  similar  legislation  that  3'ou  desii 
the  Committee  to  report  to  the  legislature?  A.  Xo.  except  that 

heard  you  ask  a question  about  what  should  be  done  with  these  wome 
The  women  were  all  run  out  of  our  town.  The3’  were  given  two  da\ 
to  go.  The  question  is,  where  did  they  go?  The3'  went  to  some  plac 
else.  I think  if  some  place  were  owned  by  the  state,  or  there  wei 
some  institution  to  take  them  to,  the3'  would  be  glad  to  go  to  it. 
know  one  of  the  most  notorious  characters  we  had  in  Alton,  when  tl 
laws  were  enforced,  went  but  of  the  business  entireU'.  She  was  marrit 

to  a man  in  Alton  and  went  out  of  the  business  completeh". 

Q.  What  is  she  doing  now?  A.  Living  here  now,  as  far  as  an; 
body  knows,  a straight  life;  but  under  the  other  conditions  she  -vv: 

given  all  the  leeway  she  wanted. 

Q.  You  wish  the  committee  to  understand  that  her  marriage  ai 
redemption  were  brought  about  b3"  the  closing  of  her  house? 

'-think  so.  These  houses  were  owned  b3"  men  who  looked  to  gettii 
tenants  in  them,  getting  tenants  who  paid  them  two  or  three  times  tl 
rent  the  houses  were  worth,  and  the  people  were  induced  to  remain 
the  business.  I think  that  was  the  condition. 

Q.  This  is  an  interesting  case.  The  chief  told  us  of  two  girls  vl 
were  redeemed.  This  makes  a third  case,  but  of  possibh-  twenty 
thirty  girls.  Do 'you  know  of  an3'  other  cases?  A.  X’o,  sir,  I do  ni 
There  were  about  thirt3'-four  or  thirt3'-five  houses  of  prostitution  operj 
ing  in  Alton. 

Q.  Women  or  houses?  A.  Houses,  where  the3"  had  women.  T 
federal  inspector  found  thirt3'-four  houses,  and- there  were  possibh"  seve 
ty-five:  women  in  all  those  houses;  who  the3'  were  no  one  especia' 
knows.. 

Q.  Where  ■were  these  houses?  A.  The3"  were  scattered  all  o\ 


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801 


I . ' . 

ihe  town.  Some  of  them  were  in  the  eastern  part  of  the  city.  The  big- 
|est  ones  were  in  the  western  part  of  the  city. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  all  these  places  have  been  closed?  A.  Yes, 
ir,  I feel  quite  certain  of  that. 

f Q.  Has  that  resulted  in  the  spreading  and  scattering  of  immorality 
h the  town?  A.  I think  not;  if  so,  no  case  has  been  reported. 

[ Q.  The  effect  has  been  entirely  beneficial?  A.  I think  so.  Un- 
doubtedly so. 

jj  EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  WOODARD 

SENATOR  WOODARD;  In  the  renting  of  these  houses,  would 
hey  rent  direct,  or  rent  and  then  sub-let?  A.  No,  they  would  rent 
jiirect.  They  were  owned  by  a few  men.  One  building  in  our  city 
Iras  drafted  entirely  for  that  business;  and  I am  merely  giving  you 
jjhis  as  an  idea  to  show  if  a Mayor  wants  to  enforce  the  law  what  can 
Se  done.  The  building  was  erected  entirely  for  the  purpose  of  pros- 
itution.  Now,  that  building  was  rented  directly  by  the  man,  who  owned 
t,  to  the  women,  who  ran  the  house. 

I Q.  He  is  a man  of  standing  in  the  community?  A.  Yes,  he  is  a 
nan  of  means.  They  are  all  men  who  have  made  their  money  either 

rom  the  liquor  business  or  the  gambling  business. 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  those  three  businesses  go  together  more  or 
Jess?  A.  Undoubtedly  so,  in  my  mind.  I may  be  a little  prejudiced  in 
jhat  way,  but  I think  so.  There  are  some  men  in  the  liquor  business 

lyho  are  upright  citizens.  Some  of  them  are  not,  but  some  of  them  are. 

|n  the  case  of  our  city  the  business  of  prostitution  was  owned  by  the  man. 

p Q.  The  closing  of  the  vice  district  and  the  closing  of  the  saloons 

pn  Sundays  in  Alton  has  had  what  effect  on  business?  Has  it  in- 

Ireased  the  business  of  your  newspaper?  A.  Our  business  has  grown 
luring  that  time.  We  would  have  reason  to  believe  that  it  has 
jielped  us. 

Mr.  Paul  B.  Cousley’s  Testimony. 

I PAUL  B.  COUSLEY,  being  called  as  a witness,  was  duly  sworn  by 
Senator  Woodard,  and  was  examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 

I EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Paul  B.  Cousley. 
Q.  What  is  your  business,  Mr.  Cousley?  A.  Editor  of  the  Alton 
Telegraph. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  thus  employed?  A.  Two  or  three 
rears. 

Q.  During  that  period  you  have  been  familiar  with  conditions  in 
\lton  generally?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  During  that  period  have  there  been  any  public  houses,  or  houses 
jf  ill-repute,  in  Alton?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  at  the  present  time?  A.  No. 

Q.  The  houses  have  been  closed  and  the  police  are  attempting  to 
<eep  them  closed?  A.  They  are. 

Q.  Has  this  had  a beneficial  influence  on  the  moral  atmosphere  of 
:he  city?  A.  Very  much. 

Q.  Do  the  citizens  approve  of  this  policy?  A.  The  majority  of 
them  do. 

Q.  How  many  girls  were  previously  employed  in  this  business?  A. 
It  is  very  hard  to  tell.  There  were  probably  twelve  or  fifteen  in  the  most 
notorious  places.  The  United  States  Government  sent  a man  here  and 
wanted  the  postoffice  to  give  a list  of  these  places.  The  deputy  postmaster 
was  detailed  to  go  out  and  make  this  report,  and  he  sent  in  the  names  of 
three  places.  I myself  investigated,  and  I found  forty-one  places  instead 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


of  three  in  the  city  of  Alton  that  were  willing  to  be  registered  under  tl 
Mann  Act. 

Q.  What  has  become  of  the  girls  who  were  formerly  employed 
these  places?  A.  Some  are  at  the  cartridge  plant. 

Q.  What  percentage  of  these  girls  would  you  say  are  now  honorab 
employed?  A.  It  is  hard  to  say.  I have  seen  a great  many  of  them 
the  evening  coming  home.  Their  places  are  right  above  our  offices,  ; 
I am  familiar  with  the  situation  in  that  way. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know,  they  are  now  honorably  supporting  then 
selves?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Girls  who  were  formerly  in  the  business  of  prostitution?  A. 
think  so,  insofar  as  they  are  no  longer  in  the  business  of  prostitution. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  Mr.  Cousley,  you  know  we  are  now  havir 
municipal  dances  for  the  young  folks.  The  ladies  take  charge  of  the  gir 
and  the  men  the  boys.  What  are  your  ideas  about  them?  A.  Very  goo' 
undoubtedly  a good  thing. 

Q.  Have  you  any  recommendations  for  the  bettering  of  the  city  c 
Alton?  A.  All  I know  is  just  to  keep  on  at  the  present  rate. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  in  any  city  in  the  State  of  Illinois  this  clean-u 
can  be  enforced  without  additional  laws?  A.  I do. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  mayor  has  full  power  to  do  this  work?  A. 
believe  he  has.  He  has  done  it  all  right  here.  I think  that  this  injunctio 
law  just  passed  is  a fine  weapon  put  in  the  hands  of  the  people  who  war 
to  clean  up. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  Mr.  Cousley,  you  know  that  for  the  past  te 
Sundays  we  have  not  had  an  arrest,  and  we  are  giving  our  day  police 
days  off.  No  telephone  calls  even  for  police.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mrs.  Sophia  DeMuth’s  Testimony, 

MRS.  SOPHIA  DEMUTH,  being  called  as  a witness,  was  dulyswor 
by  Senator  Beall  and  was  examined  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Sophia  Demuth. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation?  A.  Police  matron. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  held  that  position?  A.  Fifteen  years  ^e.^ 
May. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  paid  for  that  work?  A.  Just  the  same  as  th 
patrolmen,  $36.25  every  two  weeks. 

Q.  You  have  been  familiar  with  conditions  in  Alton  for  the  last  fiftee 
years?  A.  For  the  last  twenty-four  years. 

Q.  During  that  period  there  have  been  houses  of  ill  repute  in  Alton 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  greatest  number  of  houses  at  any  period  durin 
that  time?  A.  So  many  little  ones  it  w'ould  be  hard  to  say,  but  I shoul 
say  about  eight  different  places  in  a bunch  on  Piaso  Street  and  then  ther 
were  little  ones  all  around;  but  they  all  were  carried  on  in  the  same  way. 

Q.  Did  these  houses  pay  a tax  to  the  city?  A.  A fine  of  twentj'-fiv 
dollars  and  costs  every  three  months. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  the  Committee  what  that  amounted  to  in  dollars  an 
cents  to  the  city  of  Alton?  A.  There  has  never  been  any  other  one 
“pulled”  except  those  on  Paiso  Street;  but  I should  say  the  fines  ra 
about  seven  or  eight  hundred  dollars. 

Q.  That  money  from  the  vice  district,  collected  in  the  form  of  fine: 
went  where?  A.  It  w'ent  into  the  city  treasury. 

Q.  Are  there  any  immoral  houses  in  Alton  today?  A.  I think  ther 
are  a few  scattered  over  the  town  today,  but  I wish  to  explain  that  ther 
must  not  be  too  much  expected.  This  thing  has  been  going  on  for  }'ear 
and  years  and  it  will  take  time  to  fight  things  down  more  than  we  hav 
along  this  line.  The  police  department  and  myself  work  hand  in  hand  i 
this  work. 


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803 


Q.  You  say  there  are  houses  open  in  Alton  now?  A.  There  may 
e a few  on  the  sly.  We  are  driving  them  from  place  to  place. 

j Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  immoral  houses  today?  A.  No,  I do  not 
l;now,  but  there  are  some  rooming  houses  here  with  lots  of  things  in  them, 
nd  I do  not  have  any  confidence  in  them. 

j SENATOR  BEALL:  You  see.  Governor,  there  is  a place  called 
fherry  Alley  here  and  which  was  called  “The  Dump,”  and  we  keep  work- 
ig  as  fast  as  we  can  in  here,  but  it  is  pretty  hard  to  get  them  all  at 
[Ue  time. 

MRS.  DEMLfTH:  We  expect  to  have  the  work  cleaned  up  some 
ime. 

SENATOR  BEALL:  You  remember  your  orders  and  the  Chief’s 
jrders  to  enforce  the  State  laws?  A.  Yes. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  Do  you  think,  madam,  that  the  present 
Itate  laws  are  adequate?  A.  I think  they  are,  if  enforced;  but  we  are 
loing  the  best  we  can.  We  are  not  what  we  ought  to  be  yet,  but  we  are  so 
jjery  much  better  than  we  were. 

Q.  Are  you  handicapped  in  your  work  in  any  way  or  manner  what- 
oever?  A.  Sure  we  are,  right  along.  Suppose  we  bring  someone  into 
purt  and  we  prefer  a charge,  and  the  very  first  thing,  if  we  do  not  leave 
t with  the  police  magistrate,  they  will  ask  for  a change  of  venue  and 
JO  somewhere  else,  and  nearly  all  cases  have  been  discharged.  The  mayor 
mows  what  I am  referring  to.  We  have  had  it  this  week,  and  we  have 
lad  it  right  along. 

I Q.  What  is  being  done  to  redeem  these  girls?  A.  Nothing  at  all; 
ye  have  no  way  of  doing  anything. 

f Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  cases  where  the  women  have  been  redeemed 
Ind  gone  into  honorable  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

[!  Q.  How  many  cases?  A.  I know  a great  many  cases,  but  have  never 
itept  tab;  about  seventeen,  I should  say,  that  are  now  married  and  doing 
Ivell. 

i Q.  Have  you  ever  tried  to  put  these  women  in  respectable  homes  as 
jlomestics?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  have  you  tried  that?  A.  I have  had  two  re- 
urned,  but  the  other  fifteen  have  been  satisfactory  and  made  good, 
ij  Q.  Have  you  found  good  respectable  women  willing  to  take  these  girls 
■ti  and  give  them  a chance?  A.  They  take  them,  in  and  keep  them  until 
hey  found  where  I got  them.  Not  all,  but  some  of  them;  some  have 
:ept  them. 

Q.  Where  would  you  advise  sending  these  women  if  the  women  in 
he  homes  will  not  take  and  keep  them?  A.  I would  suggest  that  the 
:reat  State  of  Illinois  have  a place,  a farm,  or  some  place  where  we  can 
lut  them,  and  I think  90  per  cent  of  them  would  be  willing  to  go  and 
nake  a change.  I live  with  them.  There  is  not  a day  passes  that  I do 
lot  come  in  contact  with  them.  I found  a lot  of  them  yesterday,  and 
ihere  was  a young  woman  there  who  has  a young  baby,  and  she  said  she 

Ioes  not  know  where  to  go. 

Q.  With  twenty-four  or  twenty-five  years  of  experience  in  this  work, 
ou  think  it  essential  that  the  State  provide  a home  to  put  these  women  in? 
t.  I have  been  studying  this  for  twenty-five  years,  and  I believe  that  is 
/hat  we  need.  There  is  no  reform  in  a jail. 

Ir.  Edmond  Beall’s  Testimony. 

EDMOND  BEALL,  being  called  as  a witness,  was  duly  sworn  by 
'■enator  Woodard,  and  was  examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 


EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Edmond  Beall. 

Q.  Your  occupation,  Mr.  Beall?  A.  Mayor  of  Alton. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  mayor.  A.  Well,  I was  mayor  three 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


terms  before  I went  to  the  Senate,  then  I was  elected  on  this  last  tern 
I took  office  the  twenty-eighth  day  of  April,  1915. 

Q.  Since  the  28th  day  of  April,  1915,  what  has  been  your  instruction 
to  the  police  of  Alton?  A.  Well,  I called  them  in  and  told  them  I wa 
going  to  appoint  them  on  only  one  condition,  that  they  take  solemn  oat 
that  they  would  enforce  all  State  laws  and  State  ordinances. 

Q.  To  the  best  of  your  knowledge  and  belief,  they  have  been  doin 
this?  A.  Yes,  sir;  to  the  letter. 

Q.  What,  Mr.  Mayor,  has  been  the  effect  on  the  general  moral  situt 
tion  of  the  city?  A.  Well,  I expect  I am  stopped  twenty  or  thirty  time 
a day  by  good  people  of  Alton,  complimenting  me  on  the  good  work  thj 
has  been  done,  and  I hear  good  words  from  every  place  I have  been. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  from  your  observation  and  what  j^ou  hear  froi 
others  that  the  enforcement  of  the  law  has  had  a good  moral  effect  upo 
the  growing  generation?  A.  I do,  undoubtedly  so. 

Q.  What  effect  has  the  enforcement  of  the  law  had  upon  the  busines 
of  the  city?  A.  Good.  I will  say  one  prominent  preacher  said:  “Mayc 
Beall,  our  congregation  are  poor  people  mostly,  and  since  these  laws  hav 
been  enforced,  my  people,  I am  told,  have  money  to  pa}'  all  their  grocer 
and  other  bills.”  I have  heard  it  on  all  sides.  Much  good  has  bee 
accomplished  here  at  the  glass  works.  They  would  open  their  saloon 
about  2 a.  m.  near  the  glass  works,  and  most  of  the  men  would  stop  ther 
on  their  way  from  work,  and  many  women  have  told  me  that  their  hu; 
bands  come  right  home  since  the  enforcement  of  the  law;  it  used  to  b 
that  they  would  stay  there  until  about  9 or  10  o’clock  and  get  no  rest  c 
no  sleep  and  have  to  go  back  in  the  evening  and  they  were  not  fit  to  worl 
They  are  now  getting  more  work  out  of  the  men.  Men  would  lay  o 
on  Monday  and  not  come  down  until  Tuesday,  and  their  wives  an 
daughters  have  told  me  they  are  now  working  and  their  fathers  makin 
a living  for  their  families. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  effect  it  has  had  on  the  savings  banks? 
Yes;  bankers  tell  me  that  men  are  depositing  money  that  used  to  hav 
no  money  there  at  all.  I know  of  a colored  boy  who  has  an  account  nov 
and  he  used  to  save  no  money  at  all. 

SENATOR  WOODARD:  Don’t  you  think  it  is  because  you  have 
clean  and  more  wholesome  city?  A.  The  wife  and  I started  on  a tri 
last  Friday  and  we  went  to  St.  Louis,  St.  Charles  and  Collinsville,  and 
had  more  good  words  from  those  towns  than  at  home.  ^Ir.  Princeton  tol 
me  he  and  the  mayor  were  standing  in  front  of  the  banlT  one  time  an 
some  fine  looking  girls  came  along.  They  said  they  were  from  Alton,  an 
that  the  mayor  ran  them  out  of  tbe  city. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  You  have  closed  the  vice  district  in  Alton 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And,  as  far  as  you  know,  there  are  no  houses?  A.  Not  that 
know  of;  if  there  were,  I would  have  them  gotten  after. 

Q.  Has  the  enforcement  of  the  law  and  the  closing  of  these  house 
decreased  the  number  of  arrests?  A.  We  have  not  had  an  arrest  in  te 
Sundays,  and  we  have  had  no  telephone  calls;  we  have  given  the  day  polic' 
two  of  them  a Sunday,  a day  off. 

Q.  Is  that  unusual?  A.  Yes,  I would  say  it  is  unusual.  Somethin 
that  never  happened  before  in  the  city. 

Q.  How  many  houses  were  open  before  in  the  city?  A.  I could  nc 
say.  Governor,  but  there  were  many  of  them.  I met  a man  who  said  th: 
on  Bell  Street  it  was  terrible  and  he  couldn’t  sit  on  his  sidewalk  in  th 
evening. 

Q.  Mr.  Mayor,  just  one  more  question:  Have  you  found  it  possibl 
backed  by  the  chief  of  police  and  public  sentiment,  under  the  present  law 
to  clean  iip  the  vice  situation?  A.  Yes,  sir.  When  I issued  my  platforr 
many  people  laughed  at  me,  and  nine  days  after  I took  office  I had  enforce 
the  law  in  regard  to  clubhouses  and  making  them  draw  the  curtains  i 
saloons  so  that  you  can  see  right  through  them.  I want  to  state  this  muci 
this  meeting  was  a perfect  surprise  to  me  and  I never  knew  you  ha 
investigators  here.  There  was  nothing  prearranged. 


Public  Meetings  And  Testimony 


80S 


irs.  Rose  Gillespie’s  Testimony. 

MRS.  ROSE  GILLESPIE,  being  called  as  a witness,  was  duly  sworn 
<y  Senator  Beall,  and  was  examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 

, CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  Mrs.  Rose 
iillespie. 

[Q.  Your  present  position?  A.  At  the  present  time  I am  city  milk 
id  food  inspector. 

Q.  Mrs.  Gillespie,  do  your  duties  as  milk  and  food  inspector  take  you 
1 over  the  city  of  Alton?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  conditions  in  Alton  at  the  present  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  What  would  you  say  in  regard  to  the  present  moral  condition  and 
he  enforcement  of  the  laws  in  Alton?  A.  I think  the  enforcement  of  the 
aws  could  not  be  any  better.  As  far  as  Cherry  Alley  is  concerned,  there 
las  always  been  Cherry  Alley  in  Alton  and  there  have  been  more  arrests 
lere  recently  than  ever  before. 

Q.  During  your  travels  in  the  city,  you  have  met  a good  many  people 
1 the  Paiso  Street  district?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  now  with  respect  to  six  months  ago?  A. 
'he  improvement  is  wonderful. 

Q.  Are  there  any  houses  of  prostitution  now?  A.  None  that  1 
now  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  saloons  having  been  open  on  Sunday?  A. 
Jo,  sir. 

j Q.  What  is  the  opinion  of  the  people  in  regard  to  this  matter?  A. 
I’eople  who  are  on  the  right  side  are  well  pleased.  That  is,  people  who 
elieve  in  law  enforcement. 

Q.  How  do  the  men  who  drink  feel  about  this  subject?  A.  The  man 
yho  is  strong  for  drink  is  opposed  to  this,  but  his  family  is  well  pleased. 

( Q.  You  think,  then,  that  if  it  were  put  up  to  the  mothers  and  children, 
jhey  would  say  to  keep  them  closed?  A.  They  certainly  would. 

JIt.  John  Coleman’s  Testimony. 

JOHN  COLEMAN,  being  called  as  a witness,  was  duly  sworn  by 
ienator  Woodard,  and  was  examined,  and  testified  as  follows: 

EXAMINATION  BY  THE  CHAIRMAN. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  your  name?  A.  John  Coleman. 

Q.  Your  employment,  Mr.  Coleman?  A.  As  a glass  blower;  right 
low  as  business  agent  for  the  Glass  Blowers’  Association. 

Q.  You  are  acquainted  with  labor  conditions  in  general  in  Alton?  A. 
i^es,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many,  if  any,  of  the  working  women  are 
iirganized  in  Alton?  A.  As  far  as  I know,  and  I am  familiar  with  the 
inovement,  there  are  only  two  unions  of  woman  workers,  those  who  work 
In  the  laundries  and  the  clerks  for  the  retail  merchants.  The  laundry 
vorkers  have  about  fifteen  members  and  the  clerks  for  the  retail  merchants 
bout  twenty-five. 

Q.  Are  the  employers  hostile  to  these  organizations?  A.  I could 
ot  say.  They  are  not  fighting  their  employes. 

Q.  What  do  these  organizations  stand  for?  A.  Higher  wages  and 
. etter  hours. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  wage  paid  the  woman  workers  in  Alton? 
h.  Well,  Governor,  I could  not  say  exactly,  but  it  runs  between  four 
nd  five  dollars. 

I Q.  What  do  you  advise  as  a reasonable  living  wage  in  Alton?  A. 
rhat  is  a hard  thing  to  say.  The  least  amount  a girl  could  live  on  decently 
j/ould  be  between  nine  and  ten  dollars. 

j Q.  What  do  you  think  the  connection  is  between  the  low  wages  and 
|he  vice  problem?  A.  Low  wages,  that  is  all  I can  say;  low  wages  is  at 
[he  bottom  of  the  entire  vice  question. 


806 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


EXAMINATION  BY  SENATOR  BEALL. 

SENATOR  BEALL;  In  our  investigations  in  Chicago  and  other  citie 
we  found  that  many  girls  were  working  for  from  three  to  five  dollars 
week,  less  than  a living  wage,  and  we  asked  some  of  the  girls  to  fill  ou 
cards  showing  what  they  considered  the  lowest  wage  they  could  live  or 
and  eight  dollars  was  the  lowest  wage  they  figured.  We  offered  a bil 
to  the  Legislature,  a bill  of  that  kind  to  make  a minimum  wage  scale  fo 
women,  and  the  bill  was  killed.  What  do  you  think  should  be  a minimun 
wage  scale  throughout  the  State?  A.  It  is  a pretty  hard  question,  but  ni 
one  should  be  asked  to  work  for  less  than  a living. 

Q.  You  know  conditions  as  well  as  I do.  Take  the  labor  class,  di 
you  think  by  the  closing  of  the  saloons  on  Sunday  it  is  better  for  then 
and  the  public  generally?  A.  Being  a labor  man,  I think  liquor  is  a gros 
detriment  to  our  class.  I do  not  think  if  a man  wants  a drink,  no  on' 
should  say  he  should  not  have  it,  but  I do  think  the  question  should  bi 
regulated. 

CHAIRMAN  O’HARA:  What  is  the  average  wage  now  among  thi 
clerks  in  the  retail  stores?  A.  Well,  the  minimum  is  five  dollars. 

Q.  Has  the  organization  of  the  workers  helped  to  raise  the  wages  ii 
that  line?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  3'^ou  know  to  what  extent?  A.  bTo,  not  exactly;  but  I under 
stand  they  have  raised  the  wages  from  four  and  five  dollars  to  five  dollar: 
and  fifty  cents.  Waitresses  are  now  organizing  in  the  hotels  and  restau 
rants.  Their  average  salary  is  about  sixteen  dollars  a month. 

Whereupon,  upon  motion  duly  made,  the  meeting  of  the  Illinoi: 
Senate  Vice  Committee  was  adjourned,  subject  to  call  of  the  chair. 


INQUIRY  IN  CITIES 
UNDER  100,000 
POPULATION 

ii  , , . ^ 

i ^ Reports  of  investigators  employed  by  the  Illinois 
j Senate  Vice  Committee.  Summarized  by  C.  F.  Trick. 


NOTE. — The  reports  herein  summarized  properly  constitute  a 
portion  of  the  unfinished  work  of  the  Committee.  They  were  pri- 

I . 

■ marily  intended  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  in  a series  of  public 
hearings  proposed  to  be  held  in  the  cities  previously  visited  by  the 
Committee’s  investigators.  In  their  present  form,  they  may  be 
found  useful  as  presenting  a fairly  good  view  of  general  vice  con- 
ditions throughout  the  state.  It  should,  of  course,  be  borne  in 
i mind  that  the  investigators  were  searching,  though  without  prejudice, 
I for  vice,  not  for  virtue.  The  reports,  while  believed  by  the  Commit- 
J tee  to  be  accurate  and  reliable,  are  unverified. 

!! 

I 


1# 


,l -ft 


^ ' ■•,.**  ■ 

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*V.J. 


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■'  :■.  ‘c‘';'-  •'? 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population 


809 


CITY  OF  WX. 

1 The  reputation  of  the  WXA  Cafe  at  WXB  Street,  in  the  basement 
I of  the  WXC  Hotel,  in  the  heart  of  the  business  section,  as  a resort  of 
;i;  public  women,  has  extended  to  other  cities  and  this  place  is  crowded 
j:  nightly  with  flashily  dressed  and  brazen  women  of  the  underworld  and 
i their  male  consorts.  A cabaret  performance  serves  to  advertise  the 
place  and  attract  pedestrians  passing  the  door. 

; Investigator  visited  this  place  ten  times  and  personally  saw  many 
couples  go  directly  from  the  cafe  to  register  for  rooms  in  the  hotel 
' above  and  at  other  nameless  hotels  in  the  vicinity.  One  woman  whose 
f confidence  was  gained  by  the  investigator  stated  that  the  place  is  pat- 
;!  ronized  by  good  spenders  and  that  the  women  frequenters  of  this  dive 
[ make  good  money.  The  management  is  critical  only  of  the  appearance 
I of  the  women,  not  of  their  conduct,  and  the  attendance  of  women 
i!  who  do  not  dress  well  is  discouraged.  Women  are  not  required  to 
i have  male  escorts  to  gain  admittance  and  the  forming  of  spontaneous 
; acquaintance  between  patrons  of  opposite  sex  is  ignored. 

! Several  notorious  resorts,  less  pretentious  than  the  one  just  referred 
I to,  constitute  a district  at  the  edge  of  the  business  section.  About  three 
[ hundred  women  operate  in  these  places  and  obtain  “accommodations” 

I in  unnamed  hotels  and  rooming  houses  nearby,  including  flats  directly 
I over  the  cafes. 

! Unescorted  women  to  the  number  of  from  twenty  to  forty  are  ad- 
mitted nightly  to  the  WXD  Cafe  at  WXE  and  WXF  streets,  where 
they  openly  solicit  men  who  enter  the  place.  A cabaret  performance 
. of  low  type  is  featured  by  flaring  posters  at  the  entrance  which  explain 
that  admission  is  free  to  all,  and  because  this  cafe  is  situated  prom- 
inently upon  WX’s  principal  business  street  many  unsophisticated 
girls  are  misled  by  the  invitation  and  enter.  During  several  evenings 
when  the  investigator  visited  this  place  to  make  observations  he  saw 
' such  girls  come  in  and  then  depart  hastily  and  in  confusion  when  after 
a few  minutes  they  sensed  the  character  of  the  resort. 

The  WXF  Hotel  is  situated  on  WXG  Street  near  WXH  Street, 
I but  in  a more  secluded  location.  The  hotel  is  operated  in  conjunction 
! with  the  WXI  Cafe  in  the  basement  of  the  same  building  and  the  man- 
; agement  makes  no  pretense  of  maintaining  respectability.  The  only 
; restriction  imposed  upon  women  frequenters  of  this  cafe  is  that  they 

(must  enter  in  couples  or  with  a male  escort.  A cabaret  is  presented 
here  and  the  cafe  is  the  most  popular  in  the  district,  though  not  the 
busiest. 

WXJ’s  Cafe,  at  the  corner  of  WXK  and  WXL  streets,  occupies  a 
i much  more  conspicuous  location  on  the  street  level.  Ribald  crowds 
fill  the  place  each  night  and  the  women  here  claim  to  earn  more 
! money  than  at  either  of  the  two  places  previously  mentioned.  Accord- 
! ing  to  their  own  statements  to  the  investigator,  five  women  at  this 
place  were  averaging  $75  a week.  No  concessions  to  decency  are  made 
in  this  cafe  except  to  keep  the  blinds  drawn  and  the  street  door  closed. 

A number  of  smaller  saloon  dives  in  the  immediate  vicinity  of  those 
already  mentioned  maintain  poorly  lighted  winei'ooms  but  do  not  ad- 


810  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

vertise  for  business  by  presenting  cabarets  or  other  entertainment. 
Women  are  called  in  and  supplied  promptly  upon  request  by  the  bar- 
keeper or  proprietor. 

Your  investigator  found  unescorted  women  soliciting  in  WXM’s 
Cafe  at  WXN  and  WXO  streets,  and  in  WXP’s  Cafe  on  WXQ  Street, 
near  WXR. 

Neither  in  this  district,  however,  or  elsewhere  in  WX  are  there 
conducted  assignation  houses  under  the  management  of  mesdames  who 
employ  girls  on  a percentage  or  wage  basis. 

In  the  northern  suburbs  of  the  city,  situated  close  to  WXS  and 
WST  (two  popular  amusement  resorts),  is  WSU’s  garden  and  danc- 
ing pavilion,  the  character  of  which  corresponds  with  the  cafes  of  the 
district  described.  During  the  summer  season  this  resort  is  filled  ever}' 
evening  and  till  after  midnight  by  girls  and  women,  many  of  them  re- 
cruited by  their  male  escorts  from  the  adjacent  amusement  parks  by 
flirtation  methods. 

Investigator  personally  witnessed  many  shocking  scenes  here  and 
also  upon  the  excursion  steamer  WXV,  which  is  chartered  once  or 
twice  each  week  for  moonlight  river  trips  by  so-called  pleasure  clubs 
and  organizations  of  doubtful  character  and  standing.  Usually  women 
and  girls  are  carried  free  on  these  excursions  and  three  professional 
women  encountered  by  the  investigator  in  WX  dives  stated  that  they 
had  been  enticed  to  their  ruin  by  panders  who  operate  on  this  boat. 
Drunken  orgies  invariably  mark  the  return  trip  of  these  river  excur- 
sions as  the  result  of  the  unrestricted  sale  of  liquor  on  the  vessel. 

Intoxicated  women  and  men  are  not  ejected  from  any  of  these  re- 
sorts unless  they  become  so  noisy  as  to  annoy  other  patrons,  and  patrol- 
men are  deaf  to  all  ribaldry. 

At  none  of  the  cafes  are  patrons  charged  extra  prices  for  drinks 
and  there  is  no  sharing  of  his  profits  by  the  proprietor  with  the  women 
who  frequent  his  place. 

As  an  indication  of  the  influence  exercised  by  WXU’s  resort  and 
the  steamship  excursions,  four  ymung  girls  told  the  investigator  that 
they  had  met  their  downfall  at  the  hands  of  chance  acquaintances 
formed  on  the  steamer  WXV  and  nine  other  women  and  girls  blamed 
ruin  to  friendships  formed  at  WXU’s  place,  where  they  went  to  “learn 
to  dance.” 

No  evidence  was  obtained  of  any^  collusion  between  the  police  and 
the  proprietors  of  any  of  the  enterprises  named  except  the  circumstan- 
tial evidence  of  their  plainly  evident  character  being  ignored  by  the 
patrolmen  covering  the  districts.  No  police  officers  were  to  be  seen  on 
the  excursion  boat  when  the  investigator,  on  two  occasions,  accompa- 
nied the  excursion. 


CITY  OF  TX. 

Except  in  a few  sections  this  city'-  presents  every^where  a very’ 
squalid  appearance.  Indicative  of  the  city^’s  lack  of  self-respect  and  of 
its  disregard  for  the  dangers  menacing  its  girls  and  y’oung  women  is 
the  fact  that  the  vice  district  partially  surrounds  the  cit\’  hall  building. 
A recent  saloon  murder  in  this  district  was  followed  by  a campaign 
of  suppression  and  the  disorderly^  houses  are  now  operating  more  qui- 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population 


811 


rjetly.  The  largest  colony  of  these  houses  is  located  on  TXA  Street, 
11  from  TXB  to  TXC  avenues.  Window-blinds  are  kept  drawn  and  trade 
I'ls  solicited  by  women  sent  out  upon  the  dark  streets  and  to  nearby 
I saloons. 

|i  Recently  several  disreputable  women  have  invaded  the  city’s  prin- 
(icipal  business  street  and  the  investigator  visited  a flat  at  No.  TXD  and 
I others  on  the  same  street  near  TXE. 

TX  is  a typical  railroad  town  and  no  reform  movement  has  ever 
' been  sufficiently  thorough  to  purge  it  of  immorality.  Many  citizens 
with  whom  the  investigator  talked  concede  that  the  task  of  improving 
present  conditions  is  a difficult  one.  The  dens  of  vice  already  men- 
tioned are  only  one  of  the  evils  with  which  the  city  has  to  contend, 
though  they  draw  to  the  city  a large  undesirable  element  from  miles 
around,  so  that  respectable  women  avoid  the  streets  after  dark,  as 
much  as  they  are  able. 

Much  complaint  is  heard  of  conditions  existing  upon  the  excursion 
boats  that  ply  the  river  at  night,  carrying  large  crowds  of  vicious  men 
i and  women  and  young  girls.  Investigator  was  told  of  young  girls 
inveigled  into  moonlight  rides  upon  these  boats  and  led  to  their  ruin 
! and  the  conditions  noted  by  the  investigator  fully  support  the  charge 
i that  two  of  these* boats  in  particular  are  more  subtly  dangerous  than 
! ordinary  sporting  houses.  There  are  no  staterooms  on  these  steamers, 
but  the  moral  resistance  of  girls  who  travel  upon  them  with  male  com- 
panions is  within  a few  hours  so  far  reduced  by  beer  and  whiskey 
\ drinking  that  they  are  often  persuaded  to  go  anywhere  upon  disembark- 
t ing.  Many  girls  go  upon  the  boats  alone  or  in  pairs  for  the  sole  pur- 
pose of  flirting  and  forming  acquaintances,  and  the  investigator  was 
! accosted  by  several  with  the  request  that  he  buy  a drink. 

In  the  big  plants  of  TXF,  TXG  and  TXH,  at  , and  in  the 

foundry  of  TXI  the  investigator  secured  first-hand  information  from 
I the  women  workers  themselves  that  they  are  preyed  upon  constantly 
by  immoral  fellow  workers  of  the  male  sex  and  a few  give  up  their 
evenings  regularly  to  the  practice  of  prostitution,  for  which  they  re- 
ceive mere  pittances  or  nothing  at  all. 

The  stories  of  more  than  twenty  girls  and  women  employed  in  these 
I places  were  obtained  by  the  investigator  and  are  included  in  his  re- 
i'  port. 

I CITY  OF  HX 

E The  usual  result  has  followed  the  closing  of  the  bawdy  houses  in 
I the  old  segregated  district  on  HXA,  HXB  and  HXC  streets.  With 
I the  closing  of  the  saloons  last  year  the  sale  of  liquor  in  these  houses 
ij  was  stopped  because  supplies  could  not  be  readily  secured  and  they 
I were  soon  closed.  With  one  exception  no  women  were  found  estab- 
lished  in  “flats,”  and  in  five  days’  inquiry  the  investigator  was  able  to 
I meet  only  four  public  women  upon  the  streets. 

Admittance  to  a cottage  on  HXD  Street  was  gained  by  an  investi- 
^1|  gator  through  making  the  acquaintance  of  one  of  its  inmates  at  the 
* interurban  station  in  the  heart  of  the  city.  The  place  was  richly  fur- 
1,  nished  and  the  operative  counted  three  women  residents.  During  one 
visit  extending  over  two  hours  in  the  evening  three  patrons  were  met 
I at  the  street  door  and  taken  directly  to  other  rooms  by  two  of  the 


812  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

women.  Precautions  were  taken  to  keep  one  caller  from  being  seen 
by  another  during  his  stay.  Investigator  learned  that  a uniform  fee  of 
$5.00  was  charged  by  the  women  at  this  place,  though  customers  were 
occasionally  “worked”  for  much  more.  Each  girl  has  her  own  list  of 
patrons  which  she  secures  by  her  own  solicitation  or  through  the  rec- 
ommendations of  friends. 

Investigator  was  able  to  find  only  four  professional  street  walkers, 
none  of  whom  seemed  to  be  prospering  and  who  depend  largely  for 
trade  upon  Saturday  night  visitors  from  the  rural  districts. 

CITY  OF  NX. 

This  town  is  wet  but  the  saloons,  on  the  whole,  are' conducted  in 
an  orderly  manner.  A rathskeller  in  the  basement  of  the  XX A is 
patronized  by  men  and  women  advocates  of  personal  liberty  but  does 
not  appear  to  cater  to  immorality.  Other  saloons  and  cafes  have  no 
winerooms  or  accommodations  for  women. 

There  is  a large  number  of  schools  and  business  colleges  in  XXB, 
at  one  of  which  about  1,500  students  are  enrolled  each  year,  the  ma- 
jority coming  from  other  parts  of  Illinois  and  many  from  other  states. 

Employment  is  furnished  at  low  wages  to  about  400  girls  in  the 
factory  of  NXC  Company.  Among  these  the  investigator  personally 
found  a few  whose  habits  are  unrestrained.  One-half  of  these 
girls  earn  less  than  $7.00  a week  and  employment  is  not  steady.  In 
common  with  women  workers  in  other  factories  elsewhere  the  im- 
moral girls  at  this  plant  derive  little  profit  from  their  vices  and  usually 
prefer  to  cohabit  with  “friends”  in  unfrequented  outdoor  places  than 
to  risk  being  seen  and  recognized  in  hotels.  In  conversation  with  sev- 
eral of  them  the  investigator  gained  the  impression  that  they  look  upon 
their  situation  and  prospects  for  marriage  as  practically  hopeless  and 
that  a reckless  spirit  has  guided  them  into  bad  habits. 

On  NXD  Street,  near  N^XE  Street,  is  a “flat”  over  a store,  occu- 
pied by  a woman  who  does  a very  prosperous  business.  Though  she 
rents  the  place  alone,  she  has  on  call  two  other  girls.  She  is  a good- 
looking  woman  of  about  twenty-five.  Though  she  solicited  the  investi- 
gator on  the  street,  he  confirmed  her  own  statement  that  she  was  usu- 
ally so  busy  that  she  had  no  time  to  go  out.  Her  fee  is  $5.00  and  she 
often  clears  $100.00  a week.  Several  other  professionals  operate 
boldly  upon  the  streets  and  appear  to  have  little  fear  of  the  police. 
These  find  accommodations  in  small  hotels  and  rooming  houses. 

On  NXE,  between  NXG  and  NXH  streets,  eight  parlor  and  assigna- 
tion houses  are  grouped.  Of  these  the  largest  patronage  and  highest 
favor  are  enjoyed  by  the  house  at  No.  XXL  This  house  has  five  girls 
and  extra  ones  are  drafted  for  the  Saturday  and  Sunday  trade. 

CITY  OF  AB. 

Is  regarded  as  the  vice  center  for  other  cities  nearby.  Many  sport- 
ing women  frequent  the  three  most  popular  cabarets,  where  they  have 
little  difficulty  in  meeting  men,  though  open  soliciting  is  discoun- 
tenanced. These  three  cabarets  are  operated  in  conjunction  with  as 
many  hotels,  which  rank  as  the  best  in  the  city  and  cater  tP  the  best 
transient  trade. 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population 


813 


■ Couples  are  permitted  to  register  with  very  little  baggage  at  any  of 
jthese  hostelries  and  to  buy  drinks  in  the  cafes  below.  Midnight  invari- 
ably finds  many  women  intoxicated  in  these  places,  but  waiters  continue 
■to  serve  them  as  long  as  their  escorts  have  money  to  buy. 

I The  same  conditions  and  conduct  on  the  part  of  patrons  were  found 
'to  exist  in  the  three  hotels  mentioned,  in  the  ABA,  ABB  and  ABC 
hotels. 

Further  facilities  for  licentious  practices  are  afforded  by  rooming 
houses  in  the  immediate  vicinity  and  investigator  personally  followed 
I several  couples  from  these  winerooms  to  nearby  rooming  houses. 

Drunkenness  and  profanity  characterize  the  conduct  of  the  crowds 
upon  the  excursion  boat,  steamer  ABD.  Vulgar  and  suggestive  danc- 
ing by  the  passengers  is  the  leading  feature  of  the  entertainment  pro- 
vided on  this  boat.  Vile  conversation  was  indulged  in  between  boys 
and  girls,  who  sat  and  lounged  in  each  other’s  arms  on  the  upper  deck 
on  three  occasions  when  the  investigator  was  witness.  The  vessel  is 
chartered  at  frequent  intervals  by  “social”  and  other  clubs  for  moon- 
light excursions.  On  one  such  occasion  the  investigator  counted 
forty-two  girls  being  embraced  by  their  male  escorts. 

The  most  prominent  of  the  town’s  several  sporting  houses  is  located 
directly  within  the  business  district  at  ABE  Street.  This  place  houses 
twelve  women  and  does  a rushing  trade  on  Saturday  and  Sunday. 
Two  other  houses  are  located  on  ABF  Street,  between  ABG  and  ABH 
streets,  three  blocks  distant  from  the  first  mentioned. 

These  houses  of  prostitution  draw  much  custom  from  the  dry  city 
of  ABI  and  from  ABJ,  where  vice  is  held  under  close  surveillance  so 
that  it  cannot  flourish.  , 

Several  small  saloons  are  fitted  with  winerooms  for  serving  women 
patrons  and  these  arranged  to  afford  as  much  privacy  as  the  city  ordi- 
nances will  permit.  These  are  frequented,  for  the  most  part,  by  street 
walkers  and  semi-prostitutes,  who  may  be  found  strolling  the  streets 
in  the  immediate  vicinity,  usually  walking  in  pairs.  The  number  of 
these,  however,  is  reported  to  have  greatly  diminished  under  the  pres- 
ent mayor. 

Employment  for  girls  is  scarce  in  this  city  and  wages  paid  to  the 
ABK  factory  workers  and  in  the  stores  are  not  sufficient  to  cover  living 
expenses,  the  average  for  both  classes  being  about  $6.00  per  week.  In- 
ability to  find  employment  of  any  kind,  except  housework,  was  the 
excuse  given  to  the  investigator  by  three  young  girls  for  going  out  with 
men  for  money  which  they  spend  for  clothes. 

CITY  OF  ZX. 

ZX  has  been  dry  for  over  two  years,  but  it  was  not  until  the  present 
spring  that  a crusade  was  begun  by  the  present  administration  to  rid 
the  city  of  houses  of  ill-fame.  The  places  that  formerly  were  notorious 
are  now  closed.  But,  though  the  police  are  reasonably  vigilant,  a con- 
siderable number  of  women  have  escaped  arrest  and  continue  to  ply 
their  activities  in  the  side  streets  or  the  business  district  after  dark, 
taking  their  patrons  to  low-class  rooming  houses  or  even  to  secluded 
outdoor  spots. 

This  city  has  no  public  parks  or  recreation  facilities.  So  general 
was  the  fear  of  disease  infection  expressed  by  many  young  idlers  with 


814  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

whom  the  investigator  talked  that  he  was  convinced  that  either  the 
sporting  women  who  linger  in  this  city  had  already  spread  much  dis- 
ease or  else  the  fear  was  the  result  of  a propaganda  secretly  promul- 
gated by  reformers  and  designed  to  defeat  the  enticements  of  the 
prostitutes. 

Investigator  discovered  and  talked  with  six  women  who  offered  to 
go  with  him  to  the  outskirts  of  the  city  if  he  would  pay  them.  They 
seemed  to  have  no  other  occupation. 

The  women  and  girl  employes  of  the  local  stores,  the  telephone  com- 
pany and  factories  had  no  complaint  to  make  of  working  conditions 
except  that  their  wages  were  too  small  to  pay  actual  living  expenses. 
The  average  wage  in  all  these  places  is  less  than  $6.00  a week,  accord- 
ing to  information  given  by  girl  workers. 

CITY  OF  LX. 

Saloons  were  voted  out  of  LX  two  years  ago  and  the  police  depart- 
ment appears  to  be  making  conscientious  efforts  to  discover  and  prose- 
cute “blind  pigs.” 

Segregated  in  one  district,  at  the  intersection  of  LXA  and  LXB 
streets,  are  twelve  typical  parlor  houses.  There  is  no  soliciting  from 
windows  or  doorways  of  these  houses  and  they  are  raided  at  intervals, 
but  have  not  been  closed  up.  Operative  visited  these  houses  and 
learned  that  many  of  their  inmates  have  left  for  lack  of  trade  since  the 
city  went  “dry.”  He  was  able  to  buy  whiskey,  but  no  beer  was  sold  in 
any  of  the  houses,  the  women  explaining  that  it  was  impossible  because 
of  its  bulk  to  smuggle  it  into  the  district  secretly.  The  girls’  charges 
range  from  $2.00  to  $5.00,  and  total  depravity  was  the  rule  among  them. 

Street  walkers  are  active  in  the  downtown  district  after  night,  in 
the  public  park  and  wherever  picnics  or  other  evening  gatherings  are 
held.  These  women  make  their  homes  in  furnished  rooms  on  LXC 
Avenue,  LXD  Street  and  LXE  Street. 

These  sporting  women  are  satisfied  that  the  town  will  go  “wet’ 
again  with  the  next  election  and  look  for  a return  of  prosperity  in  their 
business.  Several  of  the  city’s  leading  merchants  are  also  firm  in  their 
belief  that  the  “wets”  will  win  at  the  next  election. 

Operative  visited  a bawdy'^  house  at  LXF  Street,  which  bears  in  big 
letters  at  its  entrance  the  name — . This  small  building  was  ex- 

pressly built  for  the  business  conductyd  in  it  and  is  owned  by  the  pro- 
prietress. The  three  present  occupants  complain  bitterly  of  poor  trade 
and  one  expects  to  leave  shortlyL  Substantially  the  same  conditions 
were  reported  by  the  women  in  eight  other  houses  in  this  district  en- 
tered by  the  investigator. 

“When  the  saloons  were  open  in  this  town  a lot  of  farmers  and 
small  town  sports  used  to  come  into  the  city  every'^  Saturday'  night  and 
they  were  pretty  sure  to  wind  up  here  before  midnight  and  leave  a lot 
of  money.  The  district  never  had  much  city  trade  because  we  can’t 
compete  with  the  ‘charity  girls’  and  street  walkers  who  solicit  outside,” 
was  the  statement  of  the  keeper  of  the  house  at  LXE  Street. 

Few  opportunities  to  secure  employ'ment  at  a living  wage  are 
afforded  to  self-dependent  girls  in  LX.  None  of  the  large  factories 
hire  girls  and  the  wages  paid  by  the  large  stores  and  to  operators  by'  the 


I 

t 

i 

5 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population  815 

telephone  companies  are  very  small,  ranging  from  $3.00  to  $6.00  a 
week. 

Reports  of  conversations  had  with  working  girls  and  of  former 
working  girls  who  are  now  “on  the  town”  are  covered  on  other  pages. 

As  no  cognizance  is  taken  of  the  existence  of  the  sporting  houses 
aforementioned  by  the  city  officials,  there  is,  of  course,  no  medical  ex- 
amination or  supervision  of  their  inmates. 


CITY  OF  VX. 

Open  traffic  in  vice  is  discountenanced  in  VX  by  the  administration 
and  there  are  few  flagrant  violations  of  the  city  ordinances  designed  to 
suppress  it.  No  segregated  vice  district  exists  here.  A few  profes- 
sional women  ply  their  trade  on  the  street  with  extreme  caution  to 
avoid  arrest.  Of  these  the  investigator  discovered  and  talked  with  six. 

Investigator  located  a single  assignation  house  at  VXA  Street.  The 
character  of  this  place  is  carefully  disguised  and  it  is  said  to  enjoy  a 
steady  and  profitable  patronage  by  prosperous  business  men.  The 
keeper  claims  to  cater  only  to  the  best  trade  and  the  sumptuous  furnish- 
ings of  her  house  support  her  boast  that  she  is  making  good  money. 
Also  stated  that  she  has  a few  women  who  come  on  call  to  fill  appoint- 
ments. She  is  about  forty  years  old  and  claims  to  have  been  operating 
here  for  years  without  police  interference.  “I  won’t  permit  any  noise 
in  my  place.  I keep  an  orderly  house  and  nobody  has  complained  about 
my  place  and  I am  doing  a good  business,”  she  said. 

No  liquors  are  served  to  patrons  in  the  restaurants,  hotel  dining 
rooms  or  parks  in  and  around  VX.  So  few  facilities  are  afforded  to 
street  walkers  and  semi-prostitutes  that  they  frequently  take  their 
patrons  to  the  city’s  poorly  lighted  outskirts,  where  heavily  wooded 
vacant  lots  furnish  as  much  privacy  as  a hotel  room,  with  no  danger  of 
police  detection. 


SPECIMEN  REPORTS. 

In  the  following  pages  are  presented  35  cases  selected 
from  the  reports  of  the  investigators  conducting  the  in- 
quiry in  the  above  cities.  They  are  believed  by  the  Com- 
mittee to  afford  adequate  opportunity  to  those  readers  who 
may  wish  partly  to  base  their  conclusions  on  the  causes 
and  effects  of  vice  in  this  state  on  the  statements  of  the 
victims,  not  in  public  and  under  oath,  but  in  private  and 
to  persons  regarded  as  of  their  own  kind.  The  Committee 
respectfully  suggests  that  the  degree  of  reliance  properly 
to  be  placed  on  these  statements  must  be  left  for  decision 
to  the  individual  reader. 

No.  1 — Shares  a cottage  with  another  girl.  To  give  the  neighbors  the 
impression  that  they  are  employed,  both  leave  the  house  for  several  hours 
each  day.  Their  only  income  is  derived  from  prostitution,  which  they 
practice  with  men  who  call  on  them  in  the  evening  or  whom  they  meet  on 
the  streets.  This  woman  is  28  years  old,  her  chum  31.  Came  to  ZX  from 


816 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Indianapolis  at  the  age  of  15,  at  which  time  she  was  outraged  by  her  step- 
father. Weak  of  will,  she  submitted  to  his  demands  for  several  months 
when,  her  mother’s  suspicions  being  aroused,  the  girl  ran  away  from  home. 
She  joined  a traveling  troupe  of  acrobats  and  toured  the  country  for  two 
years  as  the  mistress  of  her  trainer.  An  accidental  fall  resulted  in  an  in- 
jury that  unfitted  her  for  further  stage  work  and  upon  recovering  her 
strength  she  was  discarded  by  the  acrobat  and  drifted  into  a life  of  pros- 
titution because,  she  says,  she  was  not  fitted  for  any  other  kind  of  work. 
She  never  learned  housework  and  was  unwilling  to  do  so.  Blames  her 
home  training  for  her  downfall  and  feels  no  remorse  but  rather  boasts  of 
her  “friends”  and  her  financial  independence.  Not  fastidious  in  dress,  but 
very  fond  of  amusement  and  a hard  drinker.  Contracted  syphilis  several 
years  ago. 

No.  2 — Domestic.  Age  25.  Swedish.  Left  home  at  16,  upon  the 
death  of  her  mother,  to  earn  her  own  living.  In  her  first  position  as  a 
servant,  she  fell  a victim  of  a son  of  the  family,  with  whom  she  cohabited 
whenever  they  were  left  alone  in  the  house  for  an  evening.  Caught  in  a 
compromising  situation  by  her  mistress,  she  was  discharged.  Soon  after 
she  entered  the  home  of  a woman,  who  was  an  invalid.  Here  she  was  paid 
$4  a week  by  her  mistress  and  says  she  received  more  than  that  from  the 
woman’s  husband.  She  remained  with  this  family  for  about  a year.  Then 
upon  the  departure  of  her  own  father  from  the  city,  she  gave  herself  up 
to  a life  of  prostitution  “for  the  money  there  was  in  it,”  she  said.  “No- 
body really  cares  what  becomes  of  me,  so  why  should  I starve  to  be 
decent?  Only  one  week  this  year  have  I made  less  than  $30.00  and  so 
far  I haven’t  spent  a cent  on  doctors  either.”  Is  a very  attractive  blonde 
with  clear  skin;  takes  a great  pride  in  dressing  fashionably.  Moral  sense 
never  developed. 

No.  3 — Hotel  chambermaid.  Age  30.  Austrian.  Has  been  in  America 
five  years.  Was  engaged  to  a young  man  who  preceded  her  to  this 
country  by  three  years.  When  she  followed  to  join  him  he  changed  his 
mind  about  marrying  her.  Finding  domestic  employment  disagreeable, 
she  found  work  in  hotels  and  had  drifted  about  the  country  from  one 
city  to  another.  Is  not  in  good  health  and  engages  in  immoral  practices 
only  at  intervals,  and  then  for  money.  Performs  her  duties  faithfully 
and  avoids  contact  with  guests  of  the  hotel,  but  goes  out  with  male 
workers  of  her  own  class.  Believes  she  has  not  long  to  live  and  entertains 
no  hope  of  marriage. 

No.  4 — Found  loitering  on  the  street.  Accompanied  investigator  to 
a cafe  where,  after  imbibing  a couple  of  glasses  of  whiskey,  she  solicited 
him  to  repair  to  a nearby  rooming  house.  Upon  being  given  compensation 
for  her  time,  she  remained  in  wine  room,  and  her  story  was  obtained. 
Two  years  ago,  with  a girl  chum,  she  went  upon  a river  steamer  moonlight 
excursion.  The  pair  struck  up  an  acquaintance  with  a couple  of  men,  who 
spent  their  money  freely  at  the  bar.  She  believes  she  was  drugged,  and 
next  day  had  only  an  indistinct  recollection  of  her  new  acquaintance  taking 
her  to  an  isolated  spot  in  the  city’s  suburbs  after  leaving  the  boat.  She 
never  saw  the  man  again,  but  shortly  discovered  that  she  was  about  to 
become  a mother.  The  child  died  at  birth  and  she  was  cast  out  by  her 
family.  Having  no  funds  to  leave  the  city  and  no  place  to  go,  she  first 
became  the  mistress  of  a married  man,  but  left  him  when  caught  in  a 
liason  and  “went  upon  the  town.”  She  told  her  stor^-  in  a maudlin  way, 
with  fitful  weeping,  as  one  who  drinks  hard  to  drown  her  memories. 

No.  5 — Inmate  of  a house  of  ill  fame.  Age  23.  Has  been  a harlot  for 
six  years.  Professes  to  have  no  desire  to  quit  the  life.  Lentil  the  last 
year  she  made  good  money  in  this  city  and  made  it  a practice  to  save  much 
of  her  earnings,  which  she  spent  each  summer  on  vacation  tours  to  Atlantic 
City  and  other  resorts,  where  she  sojourned  as  a respectable  woman.  She 
takes  great  delight  in  these  excursions  and  other  luxuries  which  she  feels 
she  could  never  have  attained  by  the  earnings  of  anj^  honest  labor  for 
which  she  is  fitted.  Would  not  tell  the  story  of  her  earh-  life,  but  un- 
doubtedly had  educational  advantages.  Boasted  that  she  still  has  more 
steady  patrons  and  makes  more  money  than  any  other  harlot  in  the  city, 
despite  the  “hard  times.” 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population  817 


No.  6 — No.  7 — No.  8 — These  three  girls,  judged  by  the  investigator 
to  be  twelve,  twelve  and  fourteen  years  old,  respectively,  were  observed 
by  him  on  a moonlight  steamer  excursion.  Because  of  their  extreme  youth, 
the  investigator  could  not  engage  them  in  conversation  without  drawing 
attention  to  himself.  Five  boys  who  accompanied  the  girls  were  cultivated 
by  the  operative.  These  youths  ranged  from  14  to  17  years  of  age  and 
all  boasted  of  illicit  relations  with  these  girls  and  declared  their  intention 
of  inveigling  them  to  a haunt  on  their  way  home.  The  girls  indulged  freely 
in  vile  profanity  in  th^  hearing  of  other  passengers,  which  latter,  however, 
were  so  engrossed  in  love-making  that  they  paid  no  attention  and  were 
evidently  accustomed  to  such  conduct  on  the  part  of  juvenile  passengers 
on  this  boat.  Investigator  trailed  the  youngsters  when  they  disembarked 
and  later  broke  up  their  party  when  they  entered  a heavily  wooded  lot 
on  an  unfrequented  street.  No  police  officer  was  to  be  found  in  the 
vicinity  and  the  operative  did  not  undertake  to  hold  any  of  the  party  in 
custody,  as  he  would  then  be  required  to  reveal  his  own  identity  to  escape 
censure  and  complications.  The  names  of  the  girls  were  obtained  from 
one  of  the  youths,  who  said  they  were  all  attending  school.  The  entire 
party  appeared  to  be  familiar  with  the  locality  to  which  they  were  followed, 
but  search  of  the  neighborhood  the  following  day  failed  to  discover  them. 

No.  9 — Investigator  was  told  by  a hotel  elevator  man,  who  directed 
him  to  her,  that  she  is  the  sister  of  one  of  the  city’s  successful  business 
men.  Though  the  investigator  drew  from  her  some  facts  of  her  history, 
she  firmly  denied  any  such  relationship.  Said  she  was  seduced  by  a man 
for  whom  she  formerly  worked  as  an  office  clerk,  and  that,  with  the  aid 
of  the  courts,  *she  compelled  him  to  marry  her.  He  refused,  however,  to 
live  with  her  and  after  the  first  few  weeks  he  refused  to  contribute  to  her 
support.  She  believed  it  useless  to  appeal  further  to  the  courts,  as  he  had 
threatened  to  leave  the  State  and  its  jurisdiction  if  prosecuted  for  non- 
payment of  separate  maintenance.  She  thereupon  sought  employment  to 
support  herself,  but  found  that  the  publicity  given  to  the  circumstances 
surrounding  her  marriage  had  branded  her.  Two  offers  of  employment 
were  made  her,  each  with  the  condition  that  she  consent  to  immoral 
relations  with  the  employer.  She  finally  secured  a job  as  saleslady  at  six 
dollars  a week,  but  after  struggling  for  four  months  to  support  and  clothe 
herself  on  this  wage,  she  gave  up  and  yielded  to  the  persuasions  of  a 
fellow  worker  to  “come  on  out  tonight  and  pick  up  a piece  of  change 
with  me.”  Shortly  thereafter,  having  made  a chum  of  this  woman,  the 
two  gave  up  their  jobs  and  opened  a flat,  where  they  are  visited  by  a few 
regular  patrons.  Insists  she  is  not  promiscuous  and  that  she  doesn’t  have 
to  be,  as  she  has  money  in  the  bank. 

No.  10 — Inmate  of  sporting  house.  Age  about  28.  Was  formerly 
an  artist’s  model  in  Chicago  and  posed  in  the  nude  at  studios  and  before 
life  classes  in  an  art  college.  Was  never  educated  for  any  other  kind  of 
work.  Drifted  into  loose  habits  and  an  immoral  life  upon  the  death  of 
her  mother  and  never  made  any  effort  to  reform.  With  the  passing  of 
youth  found  it  more  and  more  difficult  to  secure  engagements  to  pose  and 
paid  her  living  expenses  by  frequent  excursions  into  cafes  of  the  tenderloin 
district  and  finally  found  herself  obliged  to  give  all  her  time  to  sporting. 
At  different  times  has  lived  as  the  mistress  of  artists,  but  could  not  be 
true  to  them.  Is  well  preserved  after  many  years  of  fast  living  and  avers 
her  intention  of  quitting  the  life  shortly  when  her  savings  have  reached 
$3,000.  In  a garrulous  mood,  induced  by  drink,  she  boasted  of  having  more 
than  once  prevented  the  outraging  of  young  girls  who  were  decoyed  to 
houses  in  which  she  stayed. 

No.  11 — Age  16.  Has  been  living  with  her  sister.  The  sister  is  a 
married  woman  who  has  been  living  with  a barber  who  is  not  her  husband. 
Paints  and  powders  and  goes  to  resorts  frequented  by  women  of  the 
underworld  whenever  she  can  escape  her  sister’s  surveillance.  Offered  to 
go  with  investigator  to  a hotel  for  five  dollars  and  declared  that  as  soon 
as  her  “friend”  returned  to  the  city  she  was  going  to  have  a home  of  her 
own.  Lazy  and  has  never  worked. 

No.  12 — Age  23.  Sales  clerk  in  a department  store.  Father  dead  and 
her  wages  support  an  invalid  mother  and  two  smaller  children.  Keeps 


818 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Sinate  Vice  Committee 


company  with  a young  man,  who  hands  her  a little  money  each  week  and 
makes  more  money  on  the  side.  Says  she  must  do  wrong  or  see  her 
mother  die.  Her  story  corroborated  by  investigator.  Low  wages  in  this 
case  appear  to  be  the  sole  cause  of  the  girl’s  downfall,  as  she  seems  to 
find  no  enjoyment  or  pleasure  in  her  habits.  Cried  bitterly  while  confiding 
her  story  and  seemed  devoted  to  her  family.  Declares  she  will  some  day 
end  her  life. 

No.  13 — Employed  in  a packing  plant,  but  was  laid  off  during  the 
winter  and  has  found  no  other  work  since.  Seduo^d  by  a man  whose 
acquaintance  she  made  at  a picnic  and  thereafter  met  him  and  other 
men  with  whom  she  went  to  cheap  hotels  for  money.  Is  23  years  old, 
unmarried  and  of  a low  order  of  intelligence.  Has  no  family.  Offered  to 
take  investigator  to  a place  where  she  could  get  a room  for  the  night 
and  wanted  three  dollars.  Says  she  has  been  obliged  to  sport  or  starve, 
but  has  not  prospered  and  will  take  a job  when  she  can  get  one  that  will 
pay  her  expenses. 

No.  14 — Age  16.  Employed  as  cashier  in  a moving  picture  theater 
and  generally  known  to  young  fellows  in  a nearby  pool  room  as  a “charity 
girl.”  Very  fond  of  dancing  and  automobiling  and  offers  herself  in  return 
for  a good  time.  She  boasts  that  her  family  has  no  control  over  her  and 
that  she  can  stay  out  as  late  as  she  pleases  because  she  does  not  have  to 
report  for  work  till  2 o’clock  in  the  afternoon.  Often  stays  away  from 
home  all  night.  Approached  by  investigator,  she  promptly  agreed  to  go 
for  an  auto  ride  and  at  2 a.  m.  was  willing  to  go  with  him  to  a room  at 
a cheap  hotel  which  she  recommended.  Showed  no  sense  of  shame  or 
embarrassment  while  admitting  that  she  had  been  immoral  lor  two  years 
and  stated  that,  while  her  employer  knew  of  her  habits,  he  never  “called” 
her  for  them. 

No.  15  — Manicurist  in  a hotel  barber  shop.  Does  not  solicit  men, 
but  will  make  dates  to  meet  them  after  working  hours  and  offered  to  make 
trip  to  Chicago  with  investigator  if  given  money  in  advance.  Proposed 
to  entertain  him  at  an  obscure  hotel  in  distant  part  of  city  in  return  for 
money.  A bright,  attractive  girl,  about  21.  Had  failed  as  a stenographer 
and  was  glad  of  it,  as  she  was  now  making  good  money.  Has  a girl  chum 
living  at  home,  and  she  frequently  is  asked  to  get  this  girl  to  make  up 
a party  of  four  to  go  out  for  the  night.  Does  not  live  at  home.  She 
explained  that  if  her  trade  was  limited  to  those  few  customers  who  paid 
regular  prices  for  having  their  hands  manicured,  she  could  not  earn  enough 
to  support  herself;  that  it  was  the  men  who  sought  her  acquaintance  by 
sitting  at  her  work  table  and  who  handed  her  big  tips  and  then  spent 
money  with  her  and  upon  her  that  made  her  job  profitable. 

No.  16 — Employed  in  a large  factory.  Nineteen  years  old.  Polish. 
Generally  known  to  male  workers  at  the  same  plant  as  “easy.”  Cultivated 
by  investigator,  her  confidence  was  easily  won  and  she  admitted  indis- 
criminate relations  with  men  at  Public  Park  and  in  other  outdoor  places. 
She  surrendered  to  those  who  sought  her  favors  with  presents  of  money 
or  articles  of  new  clothing.  She  boasted  of  twenty  pairs  of  silk  stockings, 
none  of  which  she  had  bought  herself.  “But  now  I’m  out  to  get  the 
money,”  this  girl  explained.  “I  got  to  get  out  of  this  place  and  meet  some 
guy  and  marry  him  before  my  folks  get  wise.  If  my  father  knew  he’d 
kill  me.”  She  said  she  earned  seven  dollars  a week  in  the  factor^'  when 
she  had  steady  work  and  that  of  this  she  turned  in  $4.50  at  home. 

No.  17  — Lives  in  a furnished  room  in  which  her  landlady  permits 
her  to  entertain  men  callers  without  espionage  or  question.  Offered  her 
service  for  two  dollars.  She  had  recently  given  up  all  pretense  of  respecta- 
bility and  left  her  parents  upon  losing  her  position  as  a waitress  in  a hotel 
dining  room  and  was  now  intent  only  upon  making  enough  money  to  leave 
NX  and  enter  the  life  of  a prostitute  in  WX  where  she  had  “heard  the  girls 
were  making  big  money.”  Replying  to  a word  of  admonition,  she  answered, 
“I’ll  live  fast  and  die  early  rather  than  become  somebody’s  kitchen  slave. 
Restaurant  work  is  bad  enough,  but  I won’t  be  a dog  in  anybody’s  kitchen.” 
She  declared  that  work  in  .her  line  was  growing  scarcer  every  day,  owing 
to  the  popularity  of  the  new  help-yourself  dairy  lunch  rooms  where  no 
girls  are  employed  and  which  have  put  many  old-style  restaurants  out  of 


I-*'  % 

■ Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population  819 

f business.  Was  never  married  and  said  she  had  never  met  a man  she 
wanted  to  live  with,  either  as  wife  or  mistress.  Age  26.  German. 

' No.  18 — Employed  as  a waitress  in  a restaurant  at  VXE  street  and 
said  she  had  worked  in  other  restaurants  in  Elgin  and  St.  Louis. 

. According  to  her,  the  girl  who  puts  in  ten  or  twelve  hours’  work 

daily  as  a waitress  to  earn  $4  to  $6  a week  usually  seizes  eagerly  upon 
the  small  tips  occasionally  given  by  patrons  whose  generosity  is  prompted 
by  evil  designs.  In  her  own  words:  “You  wait  on  a man  and  he  smiles 
■ ■ at  you.  You  see  the  chance  to  get  a tip  and  you  smile  back.  Next  day 
■ he  returns  and  you  try  harder  than  ever  to  please  him.  Then  right  away 

' he  wants  to  ‘make  a date,’  and  offers  you  money  and  presents  if  you’ll 

be  a good  fellow  and  go  out  with  him.  And  if  you  refuse  and  he  stops 
I coming  in,  the  boss  jumps  on  your  neck  and  wants  to  know  why  you 
' ' are  losing  his  customers.  Then  the  next  thing  you  know  there’s  a new 
j girl  in  your  job  and  you’re  out  on  the  street.  For  my  work  in  the 

! restaurant  I get  $3  a week  and  my  meals  and  a few  dimes  each  day  in 

tips  just  enough  to  pay  my  room  rent  and  for  my  laundry.  If  I didn’t 
j’  pick  up  a little  money  on  the  side  I’d  have  to  go  naked.  If  it  wasn’t  for 

' my  folks  I’d  quit  bluffing  and  get  into  the  game  right.”  This  woman  is 

' 24  years  old,  plain  but  not  unintelligent.  She  gave  the  investigator  the 

address  of covered  by  separate  report. 

No.  19  — Inmate  of  an  assignation  house.  This  girl  tells  a shocking 
story  of  having  been  started  upon  the  road  to  ruin  at  the  age  of  15  by 
her  own  brother  who  came  home  drunk  one  night  and  attacked  her  when 
he  found  her  alone  in  the  house.  Her  mother  had  died  when  she  was 
8 years  old,  and  her  father  was  a confirmed  drunkard.  The  boy  was' 
driven  from  home  by  the  father  but  the  facts  reached  the  ears  of 
neighbors  and  she  herself  stole  away.  She  found  employment  in  a gar- 
ment factory  as  a machine  hand,  but  was  unable  to  support  herself  on  her 

small  earnings  and  accepted  the  attentions  of  a foreman  who  offered  to 
support  her.  He  deserted  her  after  a few  months  and  she  went  upon  the 
streets.  Age  20.  Polish.  Not  very  bright. 

No.  20  — Nineteen  years  old.  Low  German.  Had  her  first  immoral 
experience  with  a nephew  of  the  owner  of  the  fruit  and  confectionery 
store  in  which  she  is  employed  as  cashier  and  saleslady.  Now  has  many 
friends  among  the  boys  and  young  men  who  patronize  the  cigar  counter 
and  shake  dice  with  her  for  cigars  and  cigarettes.  Is  not  finicky  in 
choosing  companions  and  will  go  out  with  anybody  who  has  money  to 
spend  or  an  automobile.  Has  no  respect  for  her  mother,  with  whom  she 
lives,  and  believes  that  her  mother  is  not  a'ctually  married  to  the  man 
she  brought  into  the  home  to  be  “step-father”  to  herself  and  her  younger 
brother,  who  is  also  an  unruly  character. 

Boasts  that  she  earns  her  own  living,  asks  nothing  from  her  folks 
and  is  ready  to  leave  “whenever  they  start  a holler.” 

No.  21  — Seamstress.  Does  not  have  steady  work  and  earns  $5.50 
per  week.  Was  first  victimized  by  a strange  young  man  she  met  in  a 
moving  picture  theater  who  took  her  for  evening  walks  in  unfrequented 
places.  Finds  gratification  in  immoral  practices  and  seems  afraid  to 
collect  money  because  she  cannot  spend  it  and  then  satisfactorily  explain 
to  her  family  where  she  got  it.  Is  16  years  old,  a comely  brunette. 
Offered  to  take  investigator  to  a vacant  house  on  a dark  street  to  which 
she  frequently  gained  entrance  without  detection,  if  he  would  give  her  $2 
i to  pay  back  some  money  she  had  borrowed  from  a friend. 

No.,  22 — Daughter  of  a farmer.  Age  18.  Came  to  LX  to  make  her 
A own  living  and  went  to  work  in  a dry  goods  store.  Made  friends  with 
? another  girl  of  her  own  age  and  to  reduce  living  expenses  they  took  a 
I'  room  together.  Could  not  meet  expenses  on  their  low  wages  and  turned 
* sporty.  After  reporting  late  for  work  in  the  morning  several  times  in  a 
, short  period,  both  were  discharged.  Neither  is  clever,  and  they  eke  out 
a bare  living  by  entertaining  men  in  their  room  and  outdoors.  Are  de- 
voted  to  each  other  and  divide  their  earnings. 

■ No.  23 — Waitress  in  the  dining  room  of  a prosperous  hotel.  About 

;■  27  years  old.  Has  not  seen  her  husband  for  four  years.  Attends  faith- 

fully  to  her  duties  in  the  dining  room  and  is  probably  not  suspected 

by  the  management  of  the  immoral  diversions  in  which  she  engages  with 

transient  guests  after  working  hours.  Was  “dated  up”  for  the  investigator 


820 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

by  the  news  stand  clerk  and  promptly  agreed  to  meet  him  on  a distant 
corner  to  spend  a couple  hours  with  him  anywhere. 

In  conversation  she  admitted  immoral  habits  and  declared  she  had 
to  make  extra  money  to  pay  for  the  care  of  her  child  in  another  city. 
Depends  for  money  upon  lour  or  five  traveling  men  who  “make'  Ha 
regularly,  and  avers  she  does  not  and  will  not  entertain  men  who  live 
in  the  city.  , 

No.  24  and  No.  25 — With  a companion  the  investigator  picked  up 
on  the  streets  of  VA.  two  young  girls  of  the  class  popularly  termed 
“chickens.”  'They  were  aged  16  and  15  years,  and  the  youngest  con- 
fessed to  having  recently  had  an  operation.  The  eldest,  when  the  party 
had  strolled-  to  an  unfrequented  locality,  offered  to  surrender  herself  in 
return  for  $2,  but  the  younger  demurred  but  encouraged  her  companion 
to  fondle  her  and  to  take  liberties,  while  trying  to  cajole  him  into  giving 
her  some  money. 

The  two  are  employed  together  as  seamstresses  in  a garment  factory. 
They  gave  names  that  were  probably  fictitious,  and  refused  escort  to  their 
homes  when  placed  upon  a car.  Were  not  located  again. 

From  their  manner  and  conduct  investigator  judged  that  their  habits 
were  not  recently  acquired,  both  being  thoroughly  coarsened  and  vulgar 
and  very  evidently  the  product  of  low-class  homes,  as  both  were  defiant 
of  parental  authority. 

No.  26 — Eighteen  years  old.  Italian.  A chocolate  dipper,  but  out 
of  work.  Fives  with  a married  sister,  who  complains  because  she  does 
not  bring  enough  money  home  to  pay  her  board.  Is  not  fitted  for  any 
other  kind  of  work  and  has  vainly  tried  for  a job  as  a domestic.  Her 
sister’s  family  is  large,  so  that  often  there  is  not  enough  to  eat  and  she 
comes  home  to  find  the  table  empty.  She  claims  that  it  was  to  avoid 
starvation  that  she  became  the  property  of  a couple  of  Greeks  who  run 
a restaurant  who  give  her  occasional  employment  and  regular  meals  in 
return  for  her  company. 

Seems  lacking  in  the  nerve  and  courage  to  leave  town  and  hunt  for 
steady  work  at  her  trade  elsewhere  and  believes  that  the  loss  of  her  job 
was  due  to  her  having  refused  the  attentions  of  a married  man  she 
worked  with  in  the  factory.  Her  Greek  friends  are  unmarried. 

No.  27 — Polish.  Age  22.  Works  in  a laundry.  Wages  $7  a week. 
Married  at  19  and  deserted  five  months  later  by  her  husband.  Has  not 
seen  him  since.  Child  died  soon  after  birth.  Unable  to  read  or  write 
and  with  no  training  for  any  kind  of  work  she  found  employment  in  a 
laundry  and  had  worked  in  several  of  them.  "Men  don’t  hunt  in  laundries 
for  wives,”  was  the  explanation  with  which  she  justified  her  loose  morals. 

This  girl  refuses  to  go  to  a hotel  lest  she  might  be  seen  by  some 
friend,  but  offered  to  show  the  investigator  a lonely  spot  in  the  north 
end  of  the  city. 

No.  28 — Age  16,  and  looks  younger.  Saleslady  in  a retail  store. 
Very  shrewd  and  wise  for  her  years;  profane  but  will  not  drink.  Earns 
$4  a week  and  tells  her  family  that  she  earns  $9  to  account  for  the  good 
clothes  which  are  furnished  to  her  by  her  “friend,”  who  is  married.  Is 
not  faithful  to  him,  however,  and  declares  she  will  “jump  the  town” 
with  the  first  man  that  will  take  her  where  she  does  not  have  to  fear 
discovery  by  her  parents  and  doesn’t  have  to  go  home  everj-  night.  This 
girl  graduated  from  grammar  school,  but  was  unable  to  obtain  anj-  better 
position  in  NX  than  the  job  she  holds  as  saleslady  at  $4  a week.  Home 
conditions  bad. 

No.  29 — Age  22.  Is  kept  as  a “widow  with  means”  in  a respectable 
home  by  a prosperous  married  business  man  who  calls  for  her  one  or 
two  evenings  each  week  and  takes  her  for  automobile  rides  into  the 
country  where  she  has  immoral  relations  with  him.  Between  his  visits 
she  entertains  three  other  young  men,  but  will  not  let  them  come  to  her 
room.  When  the  investigator  was  introduced  by  one  of  her  friends  she 
consented  to  go  for  a ride  in  the  country  and  for  a “good  time”  if  she 
could  get  another  girl  to  go  along.  Formerly  worked  as  a domestic  in 
the  home  of  the  man  who  now  keeps  her. 

No.  30 — Was  married,  but  her  husband  would  not  support  her  and 
compelled  her  to  earn  her  own  living.  She  secured  emploj-ment  as  a 
house  servant.  Without  knowing  its  character  she  visited  a low  cafe 


Inquiry  in  Cities  Under  100,000  Population  821 


one  evening  by  chance.  What  she  saw  and  heard  opened  her  eyes  to 
the  money-making  possibilities  of  the  “profession,”  and  she  entered  it  a 
few  days  later.  Declares  she  often  earns  more  money  in  one  night  than 
she  formerly  got  for  two  weeks’  work  as  a servant  and  that  she  will 
never  again  “work”  for  a living.  Not  very  intelligent,  but  fresh  looking 
and  attractive.  Age  19.  German  nationality. 

No.  31 — A frequenter  of  cafes  in  the  red  light  district.  Recently 
came  to  WX  from  Chicago,  where  she  worked  in  a tailoring  shop  and 
earned  $6  a week  at  piecework.  Russian.  Twenty-two  years  old.  Se- 
duced and  deserted  in  Chicago  by  her  fiance;  her  sister  had  supplied  her 
with  money  to  leave  home  and  escape  the  slander  of  neighbors.  She 
had  gone  to  NX  and  been  advised  by  women  of  the  tenderloin  there  to 
go  to  WX  where  things  were  “wide  open,”  and  the  girls  were  making 
“good  money.”  She  is  bright  and  is  ambitious  to  save  enough  money 
to  open  a flat. 

No.  32 — About  17  years  old.  Employed  as  office  girl.  Earns  $5 
a week.  Lives  at  home,  one  of  seven  children.  An  older  sister  was  driven 
from  home  in  shame.  Fears  detection  herself  and  goes  out  only  on 
Saturday  night  to  cabarets,  where  she  makes  promiscuous  acquaintances 
and  earns  a little  money  before  returning  home  at  midnight.  Has  made 
many  friends  among  the  sporting  women  of  the  town  and  is  planning  to 
run  away  from  home  and  to  some  other  city. 

No.  33 — Age  22.  Of  Irish  parentage.  Cabaret  singer.  Lives  and 
travels  with  a piano  player  who  took  her  from  a house  of  prostitution 
in  Chicago  where  she  had  contracted  a venereal  disease  that  forced  her 
out  of  the  life  until  she  could  be  treated  for  her  malady.  Turns  over 
to  her  paramour  all  of  her  wages  and  he  has  been  treating  her  well  and 
paying  her  doctor  bills.  The  couple  have  been  roving  over  the  cabaret 
circuit  for  several  months. 

This  girl’s  first  employment  was  as  a chorus  girl  in  a first-class  musi- 
cal comedy  where  she  was  influenced  by  wild  associates  to  go  out  for 
“good  times”  and  to  “work”  fellows  for  late  dinners  and  presents.  With 
the  decline  of  the  theatrical  business  she  found  a home  for  a few  months 
with  an  admirer  and  when  he  deserted  her  she  followed  one  of  her 
former  friends  in  the  chorus  to  a sporting  house  in  Chicago. 

No.  34 — Telephone  switchboard  operator  in  a hotel,  23  years  old. 
Vivacious  and  a clever  talker.  Dresses  well  and  explains  to  her  folks 
that  she  gets  her  clothes  with  the  big  tips  she  earns.  Has  made  many 
friends  by  visiting  the  hotel  cabarets  and  has  an  arrangement  with  a 
woman  who  keeps  a “flat”  by  which  she  can  get  the  use  of  a room  at 
any  time  in  which  to  entertain  a “friend.”  Declared  to  investigator  that 
“a  girl  can’t  earn  her  salt  at  any  honest  work  she  can  get  in  this  town.” 
Reckless  and  fond  of  a good  time.  Has  held  the  same  job  for  a year 
and  earns  $5  a week  with  nothing  extra  for  occasional  Sunday  work. 

No.  35 — Age  16.  Works  as  cashier  in  an  ice  cream  parlor.  Had  her 
first  immoral  relations  with  one  of  the  proprietors  in  the  basement  of  the 
establishment.  Outside  of  working  hours  she  loiters  at  moving  picture 
shows  or  seeks  the  company  of  boys  at  dances  or  on  river  excursions. 
Is  not  awake  to  the  profit-making  possibilities  of  vice  and  is  generally 
known  as  a “charity  girl.”  In  the  neighborhood  of  her  home  investigator 
was  told  that  she  had  always  been  wild  and  that  her  parents  could  not 
control  her.  Earns  seven  dollars  a week  and  works  long  hours. 


HffmmtrJtm 


PUBLIC  OPINION 


REFLECTED  IN 
CORRESPONDENCE 


Forty  typical  letters  presenting  matters  of  fact  and 
judgment  from  many  viewpoints. 


NOTE. — Not  the  least  valuable  of  the  Committee’s  information 
came  to  it,  unsolicited,  from  correspondents.  A total  of  over  10,000 
letters — some  signed,  some  anonymous — were  received  by  your  Com- 
mittee, read,  and  the  information  tabulated.  They  came  from  every 
state  in  the  Union,  and  from  several  foreign  countries;  they  were 
from  men  and  women  in  all  stations;  they  embraced  every  phase  of 
the  problem  under  consideration.  Thle  greater  part  of  the  anonymous 
letters  were  from  girls  and  women.  They  related  details  of  the  vice 
situation,  and  of  industrial  conditions  in  certain  places  where  girls 
were  employed,  that  possibly  could  not  otherwise  have  been  arrived 
at,  and  that  proved  of  value  in  the  Committee’s  work.  Illustrating 
the  extent  of  this  correspondence  and  its  use:  Between  the  time  of 
the  first  newspaper  announcement  that  a certain  employer  would 
be  called  as  a witness  and  the  time  of  his  actual  appearance  before 
the  Committee,  a matter  of  forty-eight  hours  of  elapsed  time,  103 
letters  were  received  from  girls  professedly  in  his  employ.  Of  these, 
13  were  culled  as  of  doubtful  authenticity,  24  discarded  for  lack  of 
intelligence  and  point,  leaving  66  communications,  from  the  con- 
tents of  which  the  Committee  was  enabled  to  form  a fairly  accurate 
conception  of  the  existing  conditions  in  this  employment,  and  thus 
properly  to  direct  the  questioning  of  the  witness.  These  anonymous 
letters  are  not  printed  for  reasons  of  space  and  propriety.  From  the 
several  thousands  of  signed  communications,  forty  have  been  selected 
as  typical  and  as  showing  plainly  the  sweep  of  public  opinion. 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


825 


No.  1 

May  I call  your  attention  to  the  following  facts:  (1)  The  Reports 
of  the  Immigrants’  Protective  League  show  that  a considerable  number 
of  immigrant  girls  who  leave  New  York  destined  for  Chicago  never  reach 
the  addresses  to  which  they  ostensibly  come.  Undoubtedly  many  of  them 
have  fallen  into  peril.  Miss  Grace  Abbott,  Director  of  the  League,  could 
testify  as  to  the  experience  of  the  League  in  searching  for  these  girls.  (2) 
A very  large  proportion  of  the  girls  at  the  State  Reformatory  for  Girls 
are  found  to  be  of  subnormal  Intelligence,  if  they  are  not  absolutely  feeble- 
minded. The  testimony  of  Dr.  William  Healy  of  the  Juvenile  Court  and 
of  Dr.  D.  P.  MacMillan  of  the  Child  Study  Department  of  the  Board  of 
Education  could  undoubtedly  speak  on  this  aspect  of  the  problem.  (3) 
An  inquiry  into  the  conditions  surrounding  the  wards  of  the  Juvenile 
Court  made  sometime  ago  showed  that  large  numbers  of  girls  are  destroyed 
by  members  of  their  own  family.  Your  attention  is  respectfully  called  to 
Chapter  VI  of  the  “Delinquent  Child  and  the  Home.”  This  letter  is 
written  in  the  knowledge  that  your  attention  has  already  been  called  to 
the  dance  hall  evil  and  to  the  need  of  supervised  recreation.  I earnestly 
urge,  therefore,  that  the  honorable  members  of  your  Committee  familiarize 
themselves  with  (1)  the  needs  of  immigrant  girls  for  protection  during  their 
journey  (2)  the  desirability  of  providing  such  agencies  as  the  Child  Study 
Department  all  over  the  state  so  that  feeble-minded  and  subnormal  girls 
may  be  separated  from  the  normal  and  be  given  the  protection  they  so 
sorely  need,  and  (3)  the  necessity  of  strengthening  in  every  community 
the  juvenile  court  and  the  probation  staff  so  that  the  homes  in  which  the 
children  are  unsafe  may  be  discovered  and  the  girls  safe-guarded  by  wise 
and  safe  placement  in  normal  homes. — SOPHONISBA  P.  BRECKINRIDGE, 
of  the  Chicago  School  of  Civics  and  Philanthropy. 

[Note:  “The  Delinquent  Child  and  the  Home,”  referred  to  in  the  above 
letter,  is  published  by  the  Charities  Publication  Committee,  publishers  for  the 
Russell  Sage  Foundation,  105  East  22d  Street,  New  York.  Miss  Breckinridge 
and  Miss  Edith  Abbott  are  the  authors.  It  is  earnestly  recommended  to  all 
students  of  the  subject.^ 

No.  2 

As  representatives  of  the  Woman’s  City  Club,  we  wish  to  express  our 
sympathy  with  the  present  inquiry  of  the  Illinois  Senatorial  Vice  Com- 
mittee; and  to  inquire  whether  our  organization  can  be  of  any  assistance 
to  you  in  your  work.  Anything  in  our  power  we  will  gladly  offer.  May 
we  ask  whether  you  have  already  incorporated  in  your  program  the  fol- 
lowing subjects  of  inquiry,  and  in  case  you  have  not,  suggest  them  for 
your  consideration: 

CHICAGO. 

Crowded  conditions  in  housing. 

Crowded  conditions  in  housing  in  foreign  districts,  in  connection 
with  the  presence  as  boarders  of  numerous  classes  of  men  engaged  in 
casual  labor;  i.  e.,  railroad  workers  and  steel  workers. 

The  use  of  special  bar  permits  at  licensed  public  dances. 

The  victimization  of  boys  as  well  as  girls,  through  the  sale  of 
alcoholic  and  etherized  drinks  at  these  dances. 

Victimization  of  un-English  speaking  girls  engaged  (a)  as  scrub- 
women, (b)  in  restaurants. 

ILLINOIS. 

Night  work  for  viomtn.— CAROLINE  HEDGER,  M.D.;  EDITH  FRANK- 
LIN WYATT,  of  the  Woman’s  City  Club  of  Chicago. 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


No.  3 

I have  spent  this  afternoon  at  the  hearing  before  your  Committee, 
the  first  time  I have  been  able  to  attend.  Living  and  working,  as  I do, 
in  the  most  congested  part  of  Chicago,  where  the  greatest  number  of  young 
girls  and  boys  go  into  the  industrial  life  at  an  early  age,  I am  intensely 
interested  in  every  investigation  and  every  plan  that  looks  to  more  normal 
recreation  for  them.  I spend  every  Saturday  and  Sunday  night  in  the 
public  dance  halls  in  the  neighborhood,  and  there  is  no  subject  that  seems 
to  me  to  need  serious  attention  more  than  the  subject  of  the  dance  halls. 
I am  very  much  interested  in  all  that  you  are  doing,  and  may  I venture 
to  suggest  that  you  take  into  consideration,  during  your  study  of  the 
dance  halls,  the  type  of  music  played,  and  the  suggestive  song  matter 
which  is  printed  on  cards  and  distributed  in  the  dance  halls?  I have  sev- 
eral dozens  of  these  cards,  showing  the  types  of  vulgar  songs  which  are 
circulated  among  our  young  people.  I should  be  glad  to  turn  this  “exhibit” 
over  to  you,  if  it  would  be  useful.  I would  also  like  to  endorse  Mrs. 
Bowen’s  suggestion  of  women  police  officers.  I know,  by  mj-  own  experi- 
ence, that  there  is  much  women  could  do  in  the  dance  halls  that  is  over- 
looked by  the  average  police  officer.  I believe  that  the  policemen  them- 
selves, ordinarily,  do  the  type  of  service  demanded  of  them;  that  our  criti- 
cism of  police  work  in  the  dance  halls  should  be  at  the  system,  rather 
than  at  the  individual ; and  that  we  should  “boost,”  rather  than  “knock.” — 
HARRIET  E.  VITTUM,  Head  Resident  of  Northwestern  University  Settle- 
ment. 

No.  4 

In  view  of  the  revelations  made  to  your  committee  of  the  practices 
of  cheap  hotels  and  rooming  houses,  I beg  to  suggest  the  enactment  of  a 
law  requiring  the  keepers  of  all  such  places  to  provide  first:  A register 
such  as  is  found  in  all  reputable  hotels;  second,  that  all  persons,  both 
male  and  female,  shall  be  required  to  register  the  full  name,  with  pen  and 
ink,  in  own  handwriting,  giving  the  address  in  each  case,  before  being 
assigned  to  room  or  rooms;  third,  that  any  person  registering  under  a 
false  name  be  subject  to  fine  or  imprisonment,  or  both;  fourth,  that  any 
landlord,  keeper  of  such  rooming  house,  or  any  place  of  similar  character, 
or  other  person  or  persons  who  may  let  rooms,  or  rent  rooms  temporari^', 
for  any  purpose,  who  shall  violate  the  provisions  of  such  act,  shall  be 
deemed  guilty  of  a penitentiary  offense.  In  conversation  with  Senator 
Manny,  some  time  since,  I mentioned  such  legislation,  and  I recall  that 
he  made  a note  of  it  at  the  time.  I make  this  suggestion  with  a full 
knowledge  of  its  drastic  nature,  and  give  it  to  vou  for  what  it  is  worth. — B.  C. 
ALLENSWORTH,  Pekin,  III. 

No.  5 

I sincerely  hope  you  can  find  a way  to  thoroughly  kill  the  midnight 
suppers  and  after-theatre  drinking  custom  which  has  grown  so  much  in  the 
past  two  years.  The  volume  of  this  has  greatly  increased,  owing  to  the 
introduction  of  cabaret  shows;  and  the  cabaret  show_  is  wanted  by  the 
restaurant  and  cafe,  as  well  as  by  the  saloon,  because  it  greatly  increases 
the  volume  of  liquor  sold  to  customers,  in  addition  to  the  quantity  of 
food  sold.  In  addition  to  the  above,  the  midnight  supper  is  a bad  moral 
influence;  in  fact,  one  of  the  worst,  in  my  judgment,  that  we  have.  A 
physician  in  New  York  City,  who  recently  died,  was  one  of  the  most  prom- 
inent physicians  in  the  United  States  in  his  profession  and  in  his  welfare 
work;  he  told  me  that,  in  his  judgment,  where  one  girl  was  led  into  im- 
morality through  the  efforts  of  White  Slavers,  dozen  of  girls  were  ruined 
by  the  well-dressed,  well-mannered  gentlemanly  villain  who  would  make 
their  acquaintance  in  any  way  possible,  invite  them  to  the  theatre,  later 
to  a supper,  and,  through  the  influence  of  intoxicants  or  drugs,  usually 
intoxicants  alone,  would  lead  the  girl  to  her  ruin.  This  physician,  for 
four  or  five  years,  was  the  head  physician  in  the  skin  venereal  clinic  of 
the  New  York  Hospital,  and  the  girls  from  the  department  stores  came 
to  his  clinic,  because  it  was  known  as  a respectable  clinic,  not  a clinic  for 
immoral  women.  He  told  me  the  story  of  a number  of  them,  but  he  said 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


827 


that  literally,  hundreds  of  girls  told  practically  the  same  story;  that  fre- 
quently the  girls  did  not  want  a supper  after  the  theatre,  but  wanted  to 
go  home,  but  that  the  men  would  make  all  kinds  of  excuses,  claiming  that 
they  themselves  were  hungry,  that  they  only  wanted  a sandwich,  or  that 
they  had  not  had  a chance  to  eat  dinner  that  night  before  going  to  the 
theatre.  When  they  would  get  into  the  restaurant,  they  would  persuade 
them  to  drink  in  any  way  possible;  a few  weeks  later,  the  girls  would 
appear  at  the  clinic,  sick,  discouraged  and  not  caring  what  happened.  Con- 
sequently, if  you  kill  the  whole  midnight  supper  business,  you  will  save, 
not  only  hundreds,  but  thousands  of  people  from  dissipation,  from  de- 
veloping habits  of  drunkenness,  and  no  small  proportion  of  them  from 
drifting  into  lives  of  immorality.  I make  this  statement  based  on  my  own 
observation,  and  the  history  of  a conscientious  doctor  in  a large  and  high- 
grade  venereal  clinic  of  New  York  City. — WIRT  W.  HALLAM,  Secretary 
Illinois  Vigilance  Association. 

No.  6 

I would  like  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  one  of  the  serious 
causes  of  “Why  Girls  Go  Wrong,”  has  been  overlooked  by  your  Com- 
mittee. While  the  dance  hall,  saloon,  low  wages,  etc.,  contribute  to  the 
delinquency  of  our  girls,  yet,  after  careful  study  of  the  problem  I believe 
that  the  working  married_  woman  who  takes  the  places  of  our  girls  is 
responsible  for  this  condition.  We  have  in  Chicago  thirty  thousand  mar- 
ried women  who  are  supporting  husbands,  many  of  them  employed  by  char- 
itable organizations,  and  a host  of  others  working  in  our  State  Street  stores 
on  the  short  hour  schedyle  from  11  A.  M.  to  5 P.  M.  Personal  interviews 
with  many  mothers  of  our  worst  criminals  have  testified  that  the  cause  of 
their  children  going  wrong  was  due  to  their  (the  mothers)  being  com- 
pelled to  be  the  bread  winners  of  the  family.  No  married  woman  should 
be  accepted  in  the  business  world  who  is  living  with  her  husband,  unless 
he  is  totally  incapacitated  for  work.  Another  grievous  consequence  of 
the  employed  married  woman  is  Race  Suicide.  Return  the  married  woman 
to  her  home  and  the  care  of  her  children.  Why  construct  these  homes  and 
then  break  them  up? — L.  G.  MEDER,  Chairman  Relations,  Catholic  Woman’s 
League  Protectorate. 

No.  7 

If  you  are  familiar  with  what  it  costs  a girl  to  live,  to  dress  and  have 
a minimum  amount  of  pleasure  in  Chicago,  it  will  not  be  worth  while  to 
read  this  letter,  but  if  you  are  not,  I should  like  to  furnish  you  with  figures. 
I am  qualified  to  give  these  figures  as  I went  to  work  when  I was  thirteen, 
went  to  a charity  hospital  at  nineteen,  fighting  for  a living  wage  for  my- 
self, and  I have  spent  five  years  in  this  city,  holding  a position  until  I 
went  into  newspaper  work.  The  cheapest  board  a girl  can  get — without 
living  in  so-called  philanthropic  homes  that  always  smack  of  charity — is 
$5.00  a week.  This  sometimes  gives  her  a little  closet-like  room  alone, 
or  she  may  have  a larger  room  by  sharing  it  with  another  girl,  but  the 
girl  who  works  all  day  must  have  some  place  of  seclusion  at  night  if  she 
is  to  regain  any  of  her  lost  strength.  If  she  doesn’t  care  to  board,  and 
it  has  its  drawbacks  because  she  may  never  have  any  privacy,  she  may 
get  a room  at  $2.00  a week  in  a fairly  respectable  neighborhood.  This 
again  is  either  a cubbyhole  or  it  may  be  a larger  room  shared  with  another 
girl — and  such  a girl  must  use  the  common  bath-room  to  wash  in.  A 
breakfast  of  coffee  and  rolls — the  least  one  can  get  and  a very  poor  way 
of  starting  a day,  is  70  cents  a week.  The  cheapest  lunch  a cafeteria  \vill 
sell  is  15  cents,  and  they  are  the  working  people’s  restaurant.  That  is 
$1.05  a week.  A dinner  may  be  gotten  in  a private  boarding  house  for 
25  cents  a meal,  which  makes  $1.75  for  dinners.  Thus  the  sum  of  a roof 
over  one’s  head  and  bare  sustenance  in  the  way  of  food  brings  a total  of 
$5.50.  The  working  girl’s  laundry  will  cost  her  75  cents  a week,  at  the 
lowest  margin  and  more  in  the  summer.  If  she  does  it  herself  siie  must 
pay  for  the  use  of  the  gas,  and  the  girl  who  works  all  day  and  does  her 
laundry  at  night  loses  her  strength  just  that  much  faster.  I know  because 
I have  done  this.  And  the  doctor  gets  what  she  saves.  The  total  is  now 
$6.25.  None  of  the  employers  seem  to  remember  that  a working  girl 


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Report  op  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


has  teeth  and  must  buy  toothpowder  and  a brush.  This  will  average  20 
cents  a week  and  with  toilet  soap,  talcum  powder,  face  cloths,  etc.,  will 
run  up  to  40  cents  a week,  and  even  poor  girls  powder  their  noses,  and 
wash  their  teeth.  We  now  have  spent  $6.65.  And  there  is  always  the 
dentist  even  for  the  poor  girl  and  if  you  allow  $10  a year  at  the  present 
price  of  dentistry,  you  will  not  be  too  broad — that  makes  approximately 
20  cents  a week,  and  more  for  the  girl  with  soft  teeth  and  a candy  ap- 
petite. We  now  have  $6.85.  The  doctor’s  bill  will  depend  upon  the  physi- 
cal strength  of  the  girl  and  in  the  first  five  years  she  works  will  not  amount 
to  so  much.  Perhaps  four  trips  a year  will  cover  it  and  that  costs  $8.00,  or 
15  cents  a week,  making  $7.00.  After  she  has  worked  five  years  this  will 
steadily  increase,  because  the  most  delicate  part  of  a woman’s  constitu- 
tion is  her  nerves,  and  five  years  steady  grind  begins  to  break  the  nerves. 
This  exhibits  itself  in  lassitude — at  first  an  unwillingness  to  wmrk,  severe 
headaches,  indigestion,  all  of  which  must  have  medical  attention,  and 
toward  the  end  this  breakdown  results  in  hysterical  spells,  in  what  others 
will  term  laziness  and  which  makes  her  stay  home  an  occasional  day.  And 
her  doctor’s  bills  will  triple  the  amount  I have  stated.  Do  you  consider, 
in  speaking  of  a moderate  amount  of  pleasure,  that  a girl  can  have  no 
pleasure  unless  she  is  able  to  dress  for  it?  A girl  likes  to  dance — that 
may  be  too  bad  in  some  cases  and  in  others  she  may  gratify  her  longing 
in  a respectable  way — but  she  must  have  an  extra  dress  for  this  and  it  must 
be  a dress  that  costs  anywhere  from  $6.00  to  $15.00,  according  to  the 
tastes  of  the  girl.  She  doesn’t  want  to  wear  her  working  hat — she  doesn’t 
want  to  wear  her  practical  shoes,  and  all  of  this  costs  so  much  more. 
And  if  she  doesn’t  dance  but  goes  to  church  on  Sunday,  she  will  not  save 
money,  for  religion,  I am  sorry  to  say,  is  for  tiiose  who  can  afford  to 
wear  Sunday  clothes.  So  she  will  not  save  money  by  attending  church  nor 
will  she  get  the  same  degree  of  healthy  exercise.  Even  if  it  is  only  a 
nickel  show  a girl  likes  to  wear  something  different — in  the  heart  of  every 
working  woman  is  enshrined  a love  of  pretty  clothes.  And  she  has  a 
natural  right  to  see  a good  play  once  in  a while.  If  she  is  temperate, 
amusement  will  cost  her  50  cents  a week,  and  it  will  not  be  intoxicating 
amusement  at  that.  We  now  have  $7.35  and  she  hasn’t  any  clothes.  Not 
wishing  to  bother  you  with  the  cost  of  the_  various  articles  of  woman’s 
clothing  and  the  durability  of  same,  I am  giving  you  a total  figure — but 
if  you  are  interested  in  the  scale  I have  completed,  and  can  furnish  it 
to  you.  Just  the  necessary  things  for  business — as  a store  girl  or  a mini- 
mum wage  office  girl,  or  any  other  kind  of  a flesh  and  blood  girl — will 
amount  to  $2  a week  and  allow  her  only  her  necessary  working  clothes,  and 
not  the  little  evening  dress  or  Sunday  suit.  And  there  are  other  expenses — 
skirts  wrinkle  and  to  the  girl  not  at  home  this  means  from  50  to  75 
cents  for  cleaning  and  pressing,  and  must  be  done  about  six  times  a 
year.  These  are  bare  necessities,  and  they  will  average  more  than  $10  a 
week.  And  still  the  girl  is  just  beyond  the  “bread  line.”  I know  from 
personal  experience  that  $10  a week  in  Philadelphia,  where  living  is 
cheaper  though  clothes  are  dearer,  would  not  give  me  even  an  existence 
that  was  not  tinctured  with  fear  every  time  I felt  ill  lest  I would  go  where  I 
did  eventually  go,  to  a charity  hospital.  And  $10  doesn't  leave  a girl 
immune  from  temptation,  because  you  have  got  to  let  a girl  hold  a couple 
of  dollars  a week  in  her  pocket  before  she  sees  any  roseate  glow  on  life, 
and  I know  when  I say  that  you  cannot  divorce  the  poor  girl  from  her 
richer  sister — because  God  forgot  to  divorce  them  when  he  made  them 
of  the  same  mould.  Repression  may  keep  her  in  check,  but  the  craving 
is 'always  there  for  pleasure,  for  companionship — which  always  means  a 
little  more  expense.  And  I want  to  say  one  more  thing.  The  girls  the 
Vice  Committee  interviewed  were  the  girls  in  the  brothels — those  girls 
whose  lives  are  closed — but  they  are  not  so  horribh^  pitiable  as  the  girls 
with  whom  I come  in  constant  contact — who  are  ekeing  out  that  shortage 
in  wage  by  occasional  delinquency.  The  woman  who  is  in  the  gutter 
cannot  tear  at  your  heart-strings  like  the  girl  you  are  watching  as  she 
starts  and  pursues  that  road.  This  is  not  maudlin  sentimentality — I would 
rather  watch  a girl  dying  hy  inches. — JANE  WHITAKER,  Author  and  JJ'cT 
fare  Worker. 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


829 


No.  8 

I beg  leave  to  enclose  an  extract  from  my  report  as  Alienist  of  the 
Board  of  Administration,  discussing  certain  features  of  the  special  prob- 
lems of  the  feeble-minded  and  I would  respectfully  call  your  attention 
to  the  suggested  need  of  appropriate  legislation  to  solve  some  of  the 
questions  of  parole  of  the  feeble-minded.  In  the  investigations  of  your 
Committee,  no  doubt,  you  have  been  impressed  by  this  time  with  the 
fact  that  most  of  the  young  women  with  whom  you  have  to  deal  in  your 
problems  belong  to  the  group  known  as  Moron,  or  high  grade  feeble- 
minded. It  is  from  this  group  that  most  of  the  moral  delinquencies  occur, 
and  we  have  found  that  girls  of  this  type  are  paroled  from  the  feeble- 
minded institutions  and  are  lost  sight  of.  I mention  one  case.  Another 
fact  which  you  must  bear  in  mind  is  that  from  this  same  group  are  recruited 
the  mothers  of  the  feeble-minded,  and  it  is  quite  important  that  there  should 
be  segregation  and  legal  control  to  properly  regulate  this  class.  I would 
be  pleased  to  have  some  suggestions  from  you,  if  you  care  to  make  them, 
of  how  to  proceed  to  bring  this  question  before  the  legislative  assembly. 
I think  it  should  be  done,  and  Illinois  will  take  the  first  step  that  has  ever 
been  taken  in  this  country  to  legally  define  feeble-mindedness  and  to 
properly  regulate  parole. — FRANK  P.  NORBURY,  Alienist,  Board  of  Ad- 
ministration, of  the  State  of  Illinois. 

(Enclosure  in  Norhury  Letter.) 

SPECIAL  PROBLEMS  OF  THE  FEEBLE-MINDED. 

The  Board  of  Administration  deals  with  concrete  problems  in  its 
daily  administration  of  the  needs  of  the  wards  of  the  State  entrusted 
to  its  care.  This  responsibility  is  becoming  recognized  by  the  gen- 
eral public;  as  a result  the  Board  is  being  called  upon  daily  to  answer 
some  of  the  grave  questions  with  which  the  public  is  concerned 
regarding  the  care  of  dependents,  delinquents,  etc.  Also  for  guid- 
ance as  to  the  handling  of  local  problems  pertaining  to  these  questions. 
This  Board  recognizes  the  need  of  appropriate  legislation  in  order 
to  solve  some  of  these  perplexing  j)roblems  needing  solution,  if  we 
are  to  progress  in  constructive  thought  and  practice  in  meeting  these 
ever-pressing  needs.  The  needs  of  the  feeble-minded  and  epileptics 
are  of  especially  grave  concern  to  this  board.  We  believe  legislation  is 
needed,  relating  to  the  legal  status  of  the  feeble-minded  (authority  to 
control)  both  as  to  commitment  and  parole,  and  also  the  segregation 
of  feeble-minded  during  the  child  bearing  period.  The  first  provision 
should  be  made  with  much  forethought,  in  order  that  the  rights  of 
the  individual  may  be  conserved,  including  a legal  definition  of  feeble- 
mindedness, and  then  throwing  such  safe-guards  about  this  procedure 
as  will  protect  the  individual  during  parole  from  residence  in  the 
institution.  We  lately  had  a case  coming  under  our  observation 
which  brings  home  to  us  the  realization  that  our  present  methods 
are  inadequate  and  jeopardize  the  moral  welfare  of  many  of  our  girl 
inmates.  A girl  fifteen  years  old  was  paroled  to  her  brother,  who 
later,  it  is  said,  sold  her  into  white  slavery,  she  being  taken  to  the 
State  of  Arkansas  for  immoral  purposes.  Investigation  by  the  United 
States  District  Attorney  of  Arkansas  reveals  the  fact  that  we  have  no 
legal  methods  whereby  this  girl  can  be  returned  to  the  State  or  again 
placed  under  State  care.  Evidence,  too,  fails  to  locate  the  offenders 
who  took  this  girl  from  Illinois.  She  is  now,  at  the  age  of  sixteen, 
a public  prostitute  in  Arkansas.  We  need  definite  regulations  of  parole 
and  the  placing  of  legal  responsibility  in  commitment  and  parole. 
We  need  definite  regulation  of  procreation  of  the  feeble-minded,  and 
especially  so  with  reference  to  the  segregation  of  the  feeble-minded 
female  during  the  child  bearing  period.  It  is  a biological  fact  that 
seldom  does  a feeble-minded  woman  give  birth  to  a normal-minded 
child.  This  implies  the  biological  fact  that  feeble-minded  is  a trans- 
missable  hereditary  unit  and  that  to  prevent  the  reproduction  of  feeble- 
minded children  the  State  must,  as  far  as  possible,  prevent  their  pro- 
creation. This  burden  of  the  feeble-minded  is  social,  biological  and 
economic,  and  the  State  should  concern  itself  in  all  three  aspects  of 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


the  burden.  The  State  primarily  is  interested  in  the  financial  point 
of  view,  but  it  should  show  equal  interest  in  the  greater  problem  of 
prevention  and  segregation.  This  Board  feels  that  legislation  along 
these  lines  is  one  of  the  most  important  considerations  which  can 
claim  the  attention  of  the  legislative  assembly. 

No.  9 

About  six  weeks  ago,  before  the  investigation  of  your  committee  be- 
gan, the  Women’s  Trade  Union  League  was  requested  by  some  of  the 
girls  in  the  State  Street  stores  to  do  something  in  the  interests  of 
organization  among  them,  and  has  since  then  held  three  large  meetings 
in  the  interests  of  this  movement.  These  meetings  have  been  addressed 
by  Miss  Mary  McDowell,  Mrs.  Joseph  T.  Bowen.  Miss  Alice  Henr3', 
Miss  Elizabeth  Maloney,  Miss  Edith  Wyett,  Mrs.  Raymond  Robins  and 
Mr.  Emmett  Flood,  and  have  been  attended  by  girls  from  everj^  store 
on  State  Street.  Since  the  last  meeting,  we  have  learned  that  a group 
of  girls  in  a certain  store,  all  of  them  girls  who  had  been  present  at  the 
meeting,  were  without  warning  paid  off,  and  told  that  if  they  “wanted 
another  job  they  had  better  pay  closer  attention  to  business.”  Will  not 
jmu,  in  your  conferences  with  the  merchants,  ask  them  if  this  is  to  repre- 
sent their  attitude  towards  their  employes’  standing  on  thejr  own  feet 
and  following  the  example  of  the  merchants  themselves  in  uniting  to 
look  after  their  own  interests?  We  feel  that  there  is  no  more  potent 
influence  for  the  morals  which  your  Commisioners  are  trying  to  defend, 
than  self-reliance  and  the  self-respect  which  comes  with  organization. — EMMA 
STEGHAGEN , Secretary  of  the  Womans  Trade  Union  League  of  Chicago. 

No.  10 

Returning  from  the  hearing  of  the  Senate  Committee,  I met  ^Ir. 
John  Fitzpatrick,  president  of  the  Chicago  Federation  of  Labor,  on  the 
street.  I told  him  what  I had  heard  Mr.  Simpson  of  ^larshall  Field  & 
Co.  say  yesterday  in  reply  to  your  question  as  to  the  attitude  of  Marshall 
Field  & Co.  towards  organized  labor.  I told  him  that  Mr.  Simpson  said 
that  Marshall  Field  & Co.  employed  members  of  unions  and  non-mem- 
bers. I also  repeated  to  him  the  question  you  asked  Mr.  Simpson  as 
to  what  would  be  the  attitude  of  Marshall  Field  & Co.  toward  a move- 
ment to  organize  their  lowest  paid  help.  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  told  me  that 
about  a year  ago  Marshall  Field  served  notice  on  the  fur  workers,  or 
furriers,  as  they  are  called,  that  they  must  either  give  up  their  union 
or  leave  Field’s;  he  said  there  was  a union  of  these  furriers,  and 
that  he,  Mr.  Fitzpatrick,  held  a consultation  with  them.  He  said  he 
never  in  his  life  saw  anyone  feel  so  badly  as  did  one  member,  a deaf  and 
dumb  man,  when  forced  to  give  up  the  union,  but  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  advised 
them  it  would  be  better  as  a strike  would  be  hopeless,  and  thej'  formally 
disbanded  the  union.  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  said  if  the  Committee  wanted  him 
he  was  willing  to  testify  to  these  facts,  and  that  if  the  Committee  sub- 
poenaed these  furriers  they  would  undoubtedl3'  give  the  facts.  I know 
of  no  official  committee  or  bod3'  of  an3'  kind  whose  work  seems  to  me 
to  be  as  promising  as  the  work  of  3'our  Committee  and  some  of  us 
have  known  for  a long  time  how  sadlv’  this  work  was  needed. — MARGARET 
A.  HALEY,  Chicago  Teachers’  Federation. 

No.  11 

I wish  to  give  you  some  facts  relating  to  the  white  slave  evil  I 
have  not  seen  mentioned  in  print.  I am  a business  woman  and  have  had 
a wide  acquaintance  among  working  girls  in  this  cit3',  also  I have  trav- 
eled all  over  Illinois  and  adjacent  territory.  My  business  brought  me 
into  confidential  relations  -with  women.  (1)  Fortune  tellers,  both  male 
and  female,  are  often  procurers.  Specific  examples:  (a)  Mrs.  B,  fur- 
nished room  keeper,  went  to  a fortunte  teller  and  after  “hearing  her 
future,”  said:  “I  have  one  lodger,  excellent  pa3'.  I want  to  keep  him. 
He  has  asked  me  to  hire  a health3q  prett3'  3'oung  girl  to  help  do  m3- 
work,  one  that  can  be  persuaded  to  accommodate  him  as  he  wishes.” 
The  fortunte  teller  replied,  “For  a dollar  I will  send  3'ou  such  a girl 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence  831 

within  24  hours.”  The  dollar  was  paid.  Soon  after  two  factory  girls 
called  to  have  their  fortunes  told.  One  was  pretty  and  she  was  told 
of  a handsome  man,  etc.,  etc.,  also  that  she  would  change  employment 
next  day  on  account  , of  an  unexpected  offer  and  that  in  that  work  she 
would  meet  the  gentleman,  etc.  Her  address  was  adroitly  obtained, 
the  landlady  called,  secured  her  services;  the  end  need  not  be  described. 
(2)  These  fortunte  tellers  flock  into  the  factory  towns  around  here.  Cer- 
tain impressible  girls  are  told  of  a new  acquaintance,  a handsome  young 
man,  etc.  The  young  man — a procurer — promptly  turns  up.  The  girl  is 
lured  to  the  city  usually  under  promise  of  employment.  (3)  This  scheme 
I first  learned  in  Elkhart,  Ind.  An  excursion  to  Chicago  to  see  sights 
and  have  a good  time  is  arranged  for  Saturday,  return  to  be  in  tirne 
for  Monday  work.  Only  young  women  are  invited,  not  more  than  six 
or  eight  at  most  and  all  expenses  are  paid.  These  are  working  girls  tired 
of  monotonous  labor,  meager  livelihood  and  hungry  for  entertainment. 
At  their  first  visit  they  are  shown  “the  bright  lights” — the  gay  life  in 
its  most  innocent  aspects.  The  suggestion  is  subtly  made  that  this  is 
the  real  life,  that  if  they  only  were  employed  in  the  city,  they  could 
enjoy  it  constantly.  They  return  home  discontented  and  on  the  next 
excursion,  one  or  more  of  them  is  quite  willing  to  accept  employment 
which  appears  innocent  on  the  surface  only  to  find  herself  hopelessly 
entrapped. 

There  are  other  phases  of  this  subject  of  similar  import  but  for  this 
time  I respectfully  call  your  attention  to  fortunte  tellers  and  the  free 
joy  excursions  to  the  city.—SARAH  H.  CANFIELD. 

No.  12 

We  have  had  an  interesting  case  brought  to  our  attention.  A woman 
came  to  this  office  and  asked  about  her  baby  which  had  been  deserted.  She 
told  the  following  story;  She  had  been  married,  and  lived  in  Chicago.  Her 
husband  deserted  here  in  1909.  The  woman  then  worked  in  a restaurant  for 
a Mr.  Kolsath,  in  North  Clark  Street,  and  finally  on  Washington  Boulevard. 
During  the  time  she  was  at  this  last  place,  she  became  intimate  with  the 

head  waitress,  who  took  her  to  a concert  hall  at  Armour  Avenue,  a 

hall  which  she  says  is  connected  with  a house  of  ill-repute.  While  there  the 
woman  met  a man  named  Wilson.  She  states  that  she  doesn’t  know  what 
happened,  but  that  the  next  morning  she  found  herself  in  a room  with  Wilson 
and  this  other  girl.  She  thinks  that  the  glass  of  beer  which  she  drank  was 
probably  drugged.  She  was  at  this  house  for  nearly  two  years.  It  was  a 
year  and  a half  before  she  was  allowed  to  go  out,  and  then  only  because  of 
her  promise  to  return.  She  went  out  three  times  and  returned,  but  the  fourth 
time  bribed  the  colored  cook  to  leave  the  kitchen  open  so  that  she  could  go. 
The  watchman  forced  her  back  to  her  room,  but  she  waited  until  he  was 
sound  asleep,,  and  then  managed  to  get  out  again.  The  policeman  on  the 
beat  tried  to  send  her  back,  but  she  gave  him  ten  dollars  as  a bribe,  and  he 
sent  her  to  a hotel.  She  also  gave  him  money  with  which  to  buy  her  street 
clothes,  and  he  promised  he  would  not  tell  where  she  had  gone.  But,  finally, 
he  directed  the  man  Wilson  to  this  hotel.  Wilson  had  been  visiting  her 
frequently  at  the  Armour  Avenue  house.  He  finally  had  a mock  marriage 
ceremony  performed  and  brought  her  to  Boston.  After  she  came  here,  a 
child  was  born,  which  was  placed  at  board.  Wilson  told  her  that  he  had 
a wife  and  family  in  Chicago,  and  that  marriage  with  her  was  not  legal. 
About  the  same  time  the  woman  with  whom  the  baby  was  boarding,  left  it 
on  a doorstep  and  it  was  turned  over  to  this  department.  This  woman  re- 
fuses to  give  the  name  of  the  girl  with  whom  she  went  to  the  Armour  Avenue 
house,  because  she  thinks  she  has  now  reformed.  She  says  that  the  other 
girl  was  for  five  or  six  years  an  inmate  of  this  Armour  Avenue  house,  also 
one  on  Michigan  Avenue,  somewhere  in  the  1500’s,  and  a house  on  Indiana 
Avenue,  corner  of  Twenty-second  Street.  She  says  that  just  before  she 
escaped,  she  had  heard  plans  made  for  her  transfer  to  the  Indiana  Avenue 
house.  She  claims  that  when  the  girls  refuse  to  do  as  they  are  bidden,  they 
are  handcuffed  and  tied  to  the  wall,  with  the  hands  overhead,  and  giveij 
nothing  to  eat  but  dry  bread  and  water ; that  they  are  sometimes  stripped 
and  horse  whipped  and  kept  in  a small,  dark  room,  with  a small  air  hole.  She 
says  that  the  police  are  in  league  with  the  white  slavers,  and  are  easily 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


bribed.  She  remembers  that  Miss  Addams  at  one  time  visited  the  Armour 
Avenue  house,  but  that  the  girls  would  not  tell  the  truth.  She  states  that 
some  of  the  older  inmates  meet  the  trains  at  the  stations,  and  persuade  girls 
to  go  home  with  them,  and  that  frequently  advertisements  offering  easy 
work  in  the  city  would  be  placed  in  country  newspapers.  This  woman  is 
very  much  alarmed  lest  she  herself  suffer  some  physical  injury  by  having 

told  this  story.  Her  name  is , and  her  present  address  is 

, Boston.  However,  I hope  that  any  communication  that  you 

might  wish  to  hold  with  her  should  come  through  this  office,  as  she  feels  that 
we  are  really  interested  in  her. — JAMES  E.  FEE,  Superintendent  of  the 
State  Board  of  Charity,  State  House,  Boston,  Mass. 

No.  13 

The  Chicago  Chapter  of  the  Daughters  of  the  American  Revolution,  with 
an  enrollment  of  about  900  women,  has  undertaken  the  project  of  erecting, 
preferably  within  or  adjacent  to  the  Chicago  Loop,  a hotel  modeled  and 
managed  on  the  lines  of  the  Mills’  Hotels  of  New  York,  for  occupancy  by 
Chicago’s  self-supporting  girls  and  women.  The  need  of  this  hotel  in  Chicago 
is  beyond  belief.  The  business  girls  and  women  number  about  80,000.  The 
institutions  and  like  places  now  accommodate  only  about  1,400.  There  is  a 
great  lack  of  respectable  and  desirable  places  for  this  class  of  women  to  live 
economically.  These  workers  do  not  ask  charity ; they  resent  it.  This  project 
being  placed  before  Mr.  John  G.  Shedd,  Mr.  La  Verne  Noyes,  and  the  Hon. 
William  B.  McKinley,  they  have  pledged  $50,000  each,  provided  $1,000,000  is 
raised.  We  hope  to  keep  this  within  twenty  subscribers.  The  donors  of  the 
money  will  always  have  a supervision  and  control  over  the  enterprise,  this 
to  be  worked  out  as  seems  best  to  the  contributors  and  the  committee.  This 
movement  has  the  sanction  of  our  national  body  of  the  D.  A.  R.,  numbering 
nearly  90,000  members  in  the  United  States.  We  are  permanent  because  we 
are  a hereditary  organization.  We  are  responsible  because  each  chapter  is 
under  the  control  of  the  national  body  created  by  an  act  of  Congress.  We  are 
non-sectarian.  This  gives  us  the  broadest  field  of  any  organization.  The 
Chicago  Woman’s  Club  has  endorsed  our  work,  and  we  have  voted  to  include 
in  our  committee  representative  women  outside  of  these  organizations.  We 
desire  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  it  is  a matter  of  record  that  the 
men  and  boys  in  the  large  cities  are  much  better  provided  for  than  the  women 
and  girls.— THOMAS  L.  McCLELLAND,  Chairman;  MRS.  FRAXK 
R.  McMULLIN , Regent,  Chicago  Chapter,  Daughters  of  the  American 
Revolution. 

No.  14 

Not  only  as  physician,  but  as  man  and  citizen,  I am  deeply  interested 
in  the  work  you  have  undertaken,  and  wish  to  join  with  thousands  of 
others  in  commending  your  laudable  efforts.  Since  j-ou  are  open  to  sug- 
gestions, I have  a few  I wish  to  make;  not  that  I do  not  believe  you  to 
be  acquainted  with  such  facts,  but  merely  to  bring  them  to  a sharper  focus 
before  your  minds.  Other  factors,  just  as  important,  and  just  as  great  as 
low  wages  play  their  part  as  component  forces  of  evil  influences  in  the 
lowering  of  the  standard  of  morality  in  men  and  women.  Since  we  are 
searching  for  means  of  raising  this  standard,  it  behooves  us  to  consider 
very  seriously  all  the  contributing  evil  forces,  no  matter  how  slight  or 
insignificant  they  may  appear  to  be.  Objects  or  deeds  we  see  every  day, 
and  which  play  a part  of  our  daily  life,  we  in  reality  fail  to  observe,  unless 
our  attention  is  called  to  them;  and  that  is  a natural  phenomena.  Our 
noses  are  constantly  within  our  range  of  vision,  yet  no  one  sees  his  unless 
he  be  made  aware  of  the  fact.  One  componing  evil  factor  which  we  fail  to 
observe  is  that  of  congregation  of  boys  and  girls,  between  the  ages  of 
nine  and  sixteen  in  our  common  and  high  public  schools.  It  is  just  the 
age  when  sexual  development  occurs  in  both  sexes,  and  with  it  the  morbid 
sexual  mind  in  such  children  where  home  environment,  bad  associations, 
lax  parental  discipline,  or  even  immoral  parents,  make  it  possible.  During 
this  age  of  growth  and  development,  both  male  and  female  children  closeted 
together  in  a room  for  eight  hours  a day,  and  eight  months  a year,  and 
with  the  greatest  part  of  the  day  with  nothing  to  do,  but  listen  to  some 
dry  talk  or  reading  of  the  teacher,  perhaps  of  little  or  no  interest  to  the 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


833 


young  observing  mind,  and  with  ample  time  to  give  to  morbid  sexual 
thoughts,  induced  perhaps  more  readily  by  the  presence  of  class  associates 
of  the  opposite  sex,  can  have  anything  but  a good  effect  upon  the  morals 
of  the  young  growing  individual.  It  is  a well-known  fact  that  the  bad 
will  easier  spoil  the  good,  than  the  good  correct  the  bad.  These  are 
ugly  truths,  but  undeniable  psychological  phenomena.  Just  visit  the  lav- 
atories of  our  common  and  high  public  schools,  of  both  male  and  female 
children,  and  read  the  nasty  inscriptions  and  rhymes  on  the  walls.  Some 
very  vivid  and  shocking  stories  were  told  to  me  by  school  teachers, 
which  if  you  be  interested,  I can  relate  to  you,  and  perhaps  substantiate 
some  with  actual  proofs.  But  I do  not  doubt  that  you  are  acquainted  with 
such  facts  as  well  as  I am.  One  great  benefit  to  be  derived  from  segregation 
would  be  the  perfect  freedom  of  teaching  to  children  sexual  hygiene,  and 
which  to  my  mind,  should  be  one  of  the  most  important  studies  in  the 
curriculum.  We  must  endeavor  to  elevate  the  morals  of  our  boys  if  we 
wish  to  protect  the  ones  of  our  girls. 

One  other  great  factor  in  the  increase  and  dissemination  of  vice,  is 
the  obnoxious  “sample  room  or  family  room”  adjoining  saloons.  I be- 
lieve a woman  has  just  as  much  right,  in  our  beloved  free  country,  as  any 
man  has  to  partake  of  alcoholic  beverages  if  she  so  choose;  it  is  no  one’s 
business  but  her  own;  but  if  she  wants  to  exercise  the  same  rights  as  man, 
in  this  respect,  she  should  be  obliged  to  do  so  openly,  and  take  her  own 
consequences.  If  a law  could  be  formulated  and  enforced,  by  which  to 
abolish  the  back  rooms  of  saloons,  and  thereby  compel  men  and  women 
alike,  to  aggregate  in  one  large  public  room,  regulated  by  police  ordinance, 
I am  satisfied  to  say,  that  at  least  50  per  cent  of  women  frequenting  saloons 
at  present  time  would  not  dare  set  their  foot  into  one  so  public,  for  shame 
or  fear  of  meeting  some  acquaintance;  and  safely  99  out  of  a hundred 
novices,  that  never  have  been  in  a saloon,  would  never  muster  up  enough 
courage  to  enter  one,  when  some  might  be  easily  persuaded  to  enter  a 
back  way  into  a secluded  place.  The  absolute  public  drinking  place  will, 
by  far  more  than  anything  else,  prevent  girls  from  taking  the  wrong  path, 
and  perhaps  I can  say  as  much  for  men,  for  just  as  a highway-man  shuns 
the  glaring  light,  so  would  any  man,  who  is  not  totally  degenerate  abhor 
publicity.  As  a general  rule,  women  are  morally  far  superior  to  men,  and  the 
few  that  do  become  degenerate,  do  so  because  of  the  evil  influence  of 
some  man. 

Another  component  factor  of  vice  is  low  wages,  of  course!  When 
we  consider  the  environment  of  the  individual  plus  absolute  necessity 
and  want  of  things  essential  to  life  and  happiness  of  an  individual;  the 
saloon  back  room  as  the  next  step,  and  so  on,  we  can  readily  see  the  way 
it  might  lead  to.  Is  there  any  wonder  that  the  department  store  and  fac- 
tory is  the  common  outlet  for  degeneracy,  when  we  stop  to  consider  that 
only  such  who  are  forced  by  absolute  poverty  or  others  with  lax  morals, 
unwilling  to  learn  or  unfit  for  a vocation  or  trade  accept  a position  with 
such  low  salaries?  Your  interrogations  of  employers  and  female  em- 
ployees, and  also  of  degenerates,  are  good,  as  far  as  they  go,  but  all  are 
more  or  less  interested  parties,  and  it  is  but  human  nature,  to  unconsciously 
or  otherwise  exaggerate  statements  in  their  favor.  I believe  a great  deal  of 
unselfish  information  may  be  obtained  from  the  boys  and  men  employed 
where  girls  are.  To  illustrate  what  I am  saying,  the  following  incident 
may  do:  Last  December,  there  came  under  my  professional  care,  a young 
man  (employed  in  one  of  the  large  department  stores'),  afflicted  with  a 
venereal  disease — upon  inquiry  he  told  me  he  acquired  it  from  one  of  the 
girls  employed  by  his  firm;  he  also  volunteered  the  information,  (to  put 
it  in  his  own  phraseology)  it  was  an  open  secret  that  ninety  per  cent  of 
the  employees  of  that  firm  have  this  disease,  while  one-half  of  the  remain- 
ing, have  either  had  it  at  some  time,  or  will  have  it  in  the  near  future. 
That  he  claims,  holds  true,  for  both  male  and  female  employees.  This 
statement  is  broad  and  ugly — but  even  if  one-half  or  one-fourth  were  true, 
it  would  be  a calamity,  I assure  j^ou.  There  are  many  facts  that  could 
be  learned  from  the  men  and  boys  of  the  big  institutions,  which  under  no 
circumstances  may  be  obtained  from  women  or  girls. 

We  live  in  a commercial  age,  where  with  a good  many  employers, 
everything  is  simply  a question  of  dollars  and  cents.  Human  lives,  ideals, 
aspirations,  are  absolutely  nothing,  if  the  questions  of  profits  and  dividends 


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Report  of  ti-ie  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


are  concerned.  I am  inclined  to  think  that  the  great  philanthropic  deeds, 
so  well  advertised  in  the  daily  papers,  coming  from  employers  paying  the 
magnificent  wages_  of  three  dollars  per  week,  and  with  such  deductions  as 
fines  for  real  or  imaginary  offenses,  are  nothing  short  of  a commercial 
scheme  of  advertising.  Advertisements  which  appeal  to  the  higher  senses 
of  man,  and  to  the  very  ones  they  so  ignobly  ignore  in  their  employees. 
It  is  no  wonder  to  me,  that  representative  commercial  men,  who  see 
profits  endangered,  attack  and  abuse  the  motives  of  your  honorable  body.' 
I cannot  help  but  say  a word  of  praise  for  Mr.  Lytton,  who  is  among 
the  very  few,  doing  an  extensive  business,  yet  has  not  sacrificed  his  human 
feelings,  or  blinded  his  intellect,  in  the  worship  of  the  almighty  dollar,  or 
forgotten  that  his  employees  are  living  human  beings,  capable  of  lofty 
aims,  joys,  liberties,  and  thousands  of  good  things  which  this,  our  blessed 
free  country  make  possible;  and  that  they  are  not  merely  an  individual 
cog  in  the  commercial  machine.  In  conclusion  I wish  to  say:  Let  us 
regulate  and  abolish  all  or  as  many  as  possible  of  the  componing  factors 
of  demoralization,  and  thereby  eradicate  vice  itself  and  reduce  the  number 
of  inmates  which  fill  our  State,  criminal  and  insane  institutions.  To  summarize 
the  points  I’ve  been  trying  to  put  forth ; 

1st.  Investigate  conditions  in  public  schools,  and  segregate  chil- 
dren, during  the  age  of  sexual  development. 

2d.  Introduce  and  teach  sex  hygiene  in  public  schools. 

3d.  Endeavor  to  improve  the  standard  of  boys,  and  the  ones  of 
girls  will  partly  take  care  of  themselves. 

4th.  Abolish  the  obnoxious  “sample  or  back  rooms,”  compelling 
an  absolute  public  saloon  for  all  sexes. 

Sth.  Establish  a minimum  wage  scale,  and  enforce  it. 

6th.  Interrogate  male  employees  of  big  institutions,  and  receive 
valuable  information. 

7th.  Consider  all  good  suggestions  offered  by  yourselves  and 
others,  and  which  I care  not  to  take  your  time  with,  and  repeat — such 
as:  regulating  of  dance  halls,  nickel  shows,  etc. 

Personally  I believe  with  yourself,  and  thousands  of  others,  that  this 
is  not  an  ideal  world,  and  that  it  is  a duty  we  owe  to  posterity,  to  leave  it 
much  better  than  what  we  have  found  it. — MAU RICE  LOEBEL,  M.  D.. 
1905  Park  Avenue,  Chicago. 

No.  15 

While  the  investigation  is  on  regarding  the  cause  of  women’s  down- 
fall and  much  attention  is  being  attracted  to  the  low  wages  paid  females, 
would  it  not  be  advisable  to  look  into  the  low  wages  being  paid  the  men 
and  ascertain  whether  these  may  have  some  small  bearing  on  the  matter? 
Almost  every  girl  would  marry  if  she  could  find  a husband  who  could 
support  her.  No  woman  w'orks  from  choice.  There  are  ver3f  few  men  who 
dare  to  enter  into  matrimony  with  the  wages  they  are  receiving.  A little 
less  than  twelve  dollars  per  week  is  the  wage  received  bj"  men  on  the 
average  in  the  United  States.  Is  this  enough  for  a married  man?  A woman 
is  unable  to  find  a man  who  could  support  her  and  children.  She  is  unable 
to  earn  enough  to  support  herself  respectably.  She  finds  men  who  offer 
her  money  for  her  body  wdthout  the  bonds  of  matrimony.  She  falls.  In 
my  poor  opinion  the  w-age  question  Should  start  with  the  men.  Give  a 
man  more  pay  and  he  will  be  able  to  marrja  This  will  cut_  down  the  per- 
centage of  married  women  who  work  todaj"  to  help  their  husbands  in 
furnishing  a home  and  will  serve  to  encourage  girls  to  marry  without  the 
fear  of  povertj'. — R.  W.  DVORAK,  2406  S.  Sf.  Louis  Avenue,  Chicago . 

[Note:  The  Committee  devoted  two  sessions  to  an  inquiry  into  the  zoages 
paid  married  men.  Sec  Sessions  XXJ'II  and  XXVIII  in  the  printed  record 
of  testimony.^ 

No.  16 

While  the  good  work  of  saving  White  Slaves  is  going  on,  win-  would 
it  not  help  to  take  such  of  the  girls  as  would  like  to  get  away  from  Chicago, 
and  list  them  in  an  Employment  Bureau,  so  that  people  who  are  looking  for 
help  for  general  house  work,  in  places  like  this  little  cit\'  or  in  the  country. 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


835 


can  apply  there  for  this  help.  The  wages  for  a position  involving  general 
housework  is  free  room  and  board  and  laundry  and  $4.00  per  week  besides, 
provided  the  girl  has  had  any  experience  at  all.  This,  it  seems  to  me, 
would  be  an  excellent  chance  for  any  girl  who  wanted  to  straighten  out 
and  live  a clean  life.  We  are  looking  for  a girl  right  now,  and  they  are 
hard  to  get. — Js'.  FRED  CUMMINGS,  226  W.  Mazon  Avenue,  Dzvight,  III. 

No.  17 

Seeing  in  the  Chattanooga  Times  the  steps  that  you  have  taken  in 
regards  to  white  slaver}',  I bid  you  God-speed  in  the  work  as  I am  a work- 
ing girl.  I know  from  experience  how  girls  are  treated  in  Rossville  and 
Chattanooga.  They  make  all  the  way  from  $2.50  to  $5.00  per  week;  excep- 
tions to  this  as  a rule  some  of  them  make  a little  more  and  often  insults 
are  made  to  girls  by  their  employers  and  under  the  strain  no  doubt  some 
give  way  in  order  to  hold  their  position.  I sincerely  hope  your  investi- 
gating committee  are  good,  honest  men  that  will  sift  the  matter  to  the 
bottom  and  will  prove  a blessing  to  our  land  and  country.  Thousands  of 
ladies  are  praying  for  you. — MINNIE  CANNON,  Rossville,  Ga. 

[Note:  Letter  No.  17  is  typical  of  several  thousands  received  by  the  Com- 
mittee from  working  girls  in  states  other  than  Illinois.  They  indicate  the  na- 
tional scope  of  the  labor  undertaken — that  conditions  testified  to  before  the  Com- 
mittee are  not  peculiar  to  this  state.] 

No.  18 

May  I express  to  you  my  interest  in  the  work  of  the  Vice  Investigation 
Committee?  I am  a stenographer,  paying  my  way  and  something  more, 
but  I have  worked  for  $3  a week,  and  I know  of  nothing  which  so  stirs 
me  as  this  question  of  women’s  wages.  What  if  girls  do  live  at  home? 
I presume  the  most  of  them  are  expected  to  contribute  something  toward 
the  household  expenses,  even  though  they  may  not  pay  regular  board; 
and  why  should  girls  in  that  class  keep  the  ones  who  must  earn  their 
living  on  the  verge  of  starvation?  A girl  can’t  clothe  herself,  just  decently, 
on  $1  a week,  any  more  than  she  can  get  the  necessary  laundry  work  done 
for  25  cents  a week.  Possibly  she  is  expected  to  do  sewing  and  laundry 
work  after  she  has  finished  her  day’s  work.  To  me  the  terrible  part  of  the 
whole  matter  is  that  so  many  little,  untaught  and  untrained  girls  are  being 
turned  out  upon  the  world  to  fend  for  themselves.  For  showing  their  helpless- 
ness and  need  of  protection  this  investigation  is  of  value,  and  I desire  to  express 
to  you  my  appreciation  of  your  work. — IV A COOK,  Carthage,  Mo. 

No.  19 

Minimum  wage  laws  will  never  be  any  more  than  a temporary  palliative. 
I doubt  very  much  whether  a minimum  wage  law  will  have  any  good  effect 
whatever  even  when  first  enacted  or  at  any  time  and  there  can  be  no  doubt  that 
in  the  course  of  a few  days  the  effect  of  attempting  to  fix  high  wages  by  law 
will  result  in  such  an  enormous  Increased  cost  of  living  that  the  so-called  high 
wages  of  today  would  be  very  low  wages  of  tomorrow.  Mankind  always  makes 
a failure  when  he  attempts  to  legislate  contrary  to  natural  laws.  You  might 
just  as  well  try  to  abolish  the  physical  law  of  gravitation  by  statute  as  to  try  to 
create  high  wages  or  any  other  prosperity  by  statute.  The  only  effective  thing 
that  can  be  done  to  better  our  social  conditions  will  be  to  remove  from  the  statute 
books  those  laws  which  grant  monopolies  and  special  privileges  to  the  few  at 
the  expense  of  the  many  and  thereby  open  the  way  to  equal  opportunity  under 
the  law. — E.  J.  BURKE,  President  Blake  Signal  and  Mfg.  Co.,  Boston,  Mass. 

No.  20 

I wish  to  suggest  that  before  the  investigation  of  the  Senate  Vice  Com- 
mittee is  closed  physicians  be  called  to  testify  as  to  the  effect  of  prostitution 
upon  the  general  health  of  the  community.  Many  prior  investigations  of  the 
social  evil  have  been  conducted,  but  none  seem  to  have  been  so  effective  as 
the  one  overwhelming  argument  in  favor  of  the  minimum  wage  for  girls  and 
women  that  must  not  be  lost  sight  of,  and  that  is  the  question  of  disease.  It 
is  therefore  most  important  to  get  this  evidence  in  the  report  of  the  Com- 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


mittee,  which  will  no  doubt  become  the  foundation  for  a very  widespread 
movement  for  relief.  To  show  the  importance  of  this  phase  of  the  situation 
I may  say  that  in  the  space  of  a few  generations  the  blood  of  every  human 
being  is  so  diverted  that  there  is  some  strain  of  it  in  everyone.  This  was 
demonstrated  by  Kendall  in  his  little  work,  “The  Kinship  of  Man,”  in  which 
he  shows  that  as  each  man  has  two  parents,  and  these  parents  have  two 
each  and  so  on,  in  the  brief  space  of  thirty  generations,  of  33  1-3  years  each, 
the  number  of  parents  would  be  represented  by  the  enormous  total  of  one 
billion  seventy-four  million  and  some  odd  persons.  No  such  number  of  • 
people  ever  lived  on  this  earth  and  the  difference  is  made  up  by  intermarriages, 
but  Mr.  Kendall  demonstrates  that  this  shows  that  Nature  refuses  all  arti- 
ficial selection  and  that  today  we  are  practically  of  one  blood,  allowing  for 
the  isolation  of  certain  nationalities.  Among  the  physicians  who  might  be 
called  I would  suggest  Dr.  Frank  G.  Lydston,  Dr.  W.  A.  Evans,  Dr.  John  B.  ’ 
Murphy,  Dr.  A.  J.  Ochsner,  and  Dr.  Anna  E.  Blount. — HENRY  M.  ASHTON,  I 
Representative  Third  District.  48th  General  Assembly.  I 

No.  21  ' 

I wish  to  congratulate  the  Vice  Committee  for  its  energetic,  thorough 
questioning  of  the  big  employers  about  salaries  paid  to  their  women  employes,  i 
There  cannot  be  a doubt  that  the  low  wages  paid  to  girls  and  women  are  ' 
one  of  the  principal  reasons  of  girls  going  wrong;  on  the  other  side  a mini-  j 
mum  wage  law  of  $8.00  a week  for  girls  under  sixteen  years  of  age,  $10.00  ' 
under  eighteen  years  and  $12.00  for  girls -over  eighteen  years  could  not  hurt 
especially  big  employers,  whose  profits  amount  to  millions  on  an  investment 
of  a million,  although  it  may  hurt  small  poor  employers.  I would  like  to 
call  your  attention  to  the  laws  of  Austria  and  Germany  in  regard  to  com- 
mercial employes ; there  the  employer  has  to  give  notice  to  the  employe  six  j 
weeks  before  a calendar  quarter,  to-wit : Fibruary  15  for  the  1st  of  April,  j 
May  15  for  the  1st  of  July,  August  15  for  the  1st  of  October,  November  15  ( 

for  the  1st  of  January,  so  that  notice  given  later  than  six  weeks  before  i 
the  1st  of  January  goes  for  the  April  quarter,  etc.  During  this  six  weeks 
the  employe  can  ask  for  absence  of  two  hours  until  he  or  she  finds  another 
position  that  is  very  advantageous  for  the  employe,  if  he  cannot  be  dismissed 
immediately  except  for  theft,  and  has  to  be  paid  in  case  of  sickness  to  the 
next  quarter.  Here  an  employer  hires  hundreds  of  girls  before  Christmas  \ 
and  Christmas  eve  discharges  them  simply;  in  the  old  country  the  commercial  ( 
employe  knows  he  has  to  work  hard  during  the  business  rush,  but  don’t  I 
need  to  worry  about  being  dismissed  right  afterward.  December  31  he  or 
she  gets  double  monthly  salary  for  December,  commonly  a raise  in  wages 
and  can  take  it  easier  after  the  rush  is  over.  A law  should  be  made  1 
making  the  emploj'er  responsible  for  the  health,  morality  and  welfare  of  em- 
ployes. I am  sure,  other  states  would  follow  suit  any  progressive  humani- 
tarian laws  of  Illinois.  My  best  wishes  for  your  work,  which  is  in  line  and. 
in  the  spirit  of  true  democracy  and  humanity. — E.  ALTSCHUL,  Commission  ‘ 
Merchant,  2153  Sedgwick  Avenue,  Chicago. 

No.  22 

May  I suggest  that  you  look  into  the  question  of  “overtime”  and  Sunday  1 

labor  of  the  employes  of  the  big  stores — and  the  little — and  also  the  mail  1 

order  houses?  During  certain  seasons  of  the  year  the  girls  are  worked  under  1 

terrible  strain  for  long  hours  each  daj"  and  seven  days  a week.  And  in  spite  • 

of  the  enormous  increase  in  income  during  these  periods  they  receive  no 
extra  pay.  While  I do  not  believe  that  “low  wages”  is  a major  cause  of 
delinquency  in  girls,  I am  convinced  that  it  is  a contributing  factor.  The 
high  wages  of  the  prostitute  is  a larger  cause.  May  your  honorable  Com- 
mittee hit  this  social  nastiness  a death  blow. — PHILLIP  YARROW , President 
Young  People’s  Civic  League,  Chicago. 

No.  23 

T have  read  with  some  interest  the  proceedings  of  your  investigating 
committee.  Did  it  ever  occur  to  your  Committee  that  there  are  hundreds  of 
farmers  in  western  Illinois  who  find  it  impossible  to  get  any  kind  of  domestic 
help,  who  would  be  glad  to  pay  good  wages  and  give  good  homes  to  girls 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


837 


to  come  and  help  out  on  the  farm?  We  have  found  here  in  Iowa  that  the 
greatest  drawback  we  have  to  getting  our  young  married  people  on  the  farm  is 
the  lack  of  domestic  help  and  I am  of  the  opinion  that  a good  information 
bureau  could  place  a great  number  of  girls  who  are  willing  to  work  in  good 
homes  and  where  their  future  would  be  a great  deal  better  than  living  in  the 
city. — H.  S.  RAND,  President  Burlington  Lumber  Co.,  Burlington,  Iowa. 

No,  24 

Permit  me  to  suggest  one  line  of  questions  in  your  commendable  in- 
vestigation as  to  “Women’s  Wages  and  Vice.”  Ask  these  girls  working  for  a 
pitiable,  almost  criminal,  compensation,  why  they  object  to  working  as  a 
domestic — making  almost  double  the  money  and  having  the  benefit  of  board 
and  lodging  and  the  protection  of  a home  in  the  bargain?  The  market  of 
domestic  help  is  almost  “cornered”  and  lots  of  families  despair  of  keeping 
b.ouse  because  they  cannot  obtain  help ! I think  that  is  a leading  question. 
If  girls  as  a class  shirk  the  better  protected,  better  paid  positions  In  families — 
the  people  of  this  country  should  know  the  reason. — WILHELM  BODE- 
MANN , Chairman  Telephone  Committee,  National  Association  of  Retail  Drug- 
gists. 

[Note:  Letters  No.  23  and  No.  24  are  similar  to  those  from  many 
other  correspondents,  inquiring  why  girls,  poorly  paid  in  industrial  lines,  do 
not  go  into  domestic  service.  Letters  of  this  nature,  almost  ivithout  e.rcep- 
tion,  were  from  men.] 

No.  25 

My  purpose  in  writing  this  letter  is  merely  to  show  you  what  a 
tremendous  force  you  have  to  contend  with  in  attempting  to  correct  the 
hideous  conditions  of  the  exploitation  of  women.  Some  years  ago  a friend 
of  mine  was  elected  State’s  attorney  in  a city,  which  was  under  the  political 
control  of  vicious  elements.  It  fell  in  the  ordinary  course  of  his  official 
duties  that  he  prosecuted  a procuress  and  a man,  her  accomplice,  for  at- 
tempting the  ruin  of  a young  girl.  Pressure  was  brought  on  him  to  forego 
this  prosecution  at  the  instance  of  a politician  with  tenderloin  interests. 
He  was  at  the  time  mentioned  as  a candidate  for  the  gubernatorial  nomina- 
tion, but  was  informed  that  without  the  delegates  from  the  wards  in  which 
the  vice  district  was  situated,  his  nomination  was  impossible.  In  short, 
he  discovered  that  unless  he  was  willing  to  connive  at  the  escape  of  these 
wretches  froni  punishment  for  their  despicable  crime,  he  must  bid  farewell 
to  any  hope  of  a political  career.  The  result  showed  that  the  vice  ring 
was  just  as  powerful  as  it  claimed  to  be.  He  insisted  on  performing  his 
full  duty,  despite  all  the  pressure,  and  the  two  criminals  were  convicted 
and  sentenced.  Not  only  was  the  nomination  he  sought  denied  him,  but 
he  was  bluntly  told  that  the  political  powers  saw  no  way  in  which  he 
might  succeed  himself  in  the  office  of  State’s  Attorney.  Realizing  that  his 
own  community  was  closed  to  him  as  a field  of  action,  he  felt  obliged  to 
quit  the  State  and  take  up  practice  elsewhere.  When  I read  of  the  laudable 
efforts  of  your  Committee  in  behalf  of  women  and  the  telling  blows  you 
were  striking  against  the  vice  ring,  I wondered  if  the  members  of  your 
Committee  would  be  strong  enough  to  break  through  the  obstacles  that 
destroyed  the  career  of  my  friend. — A.  S.  WHEELER. 

No.  26 

It  is  with  great  interest  that  the  writer  has  been  reading  of  the  investi- 
gation you  are  holding  relative  to  white  slavery  and  the  minimum  wage  paid 
to  the  girls  and  women  workers  in  this  city.  For  over  four  years,  as  cost 
expert  and  efficiency  man,  the  writer  has  made  special  studies  along  wages 
in  great,  as  well  as  small,  plants  in  printing,  lithographing,  photo-engraving, 
electrotyping  and  box-making  industries  in  many  of  the  large  cities  of  this' 
county.  Studies  of  wage  conditions  made  at  first  hand  have  resulted  in  evolv- 
ing a method  of  analyzing  the  Cost  of  Producing  Labor  to  Sell,  a method 
exactly  the  same  as  used  in  finding  the  “chargeable  hour”  cost  in  the  many 
operations  that  go  to  make  up  a complete  manufactured  product.  If,  in  your 
opinion,  you  think  the  Committee  investigating  the  conditions  would  be  in- 
terested in  what  could  be  offered  along  this  line  in  a general  way,  the  writer 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


838 


would  be  glad  to  submit  to  it  such  information  as  he  might  have.  I wish  you 
ultimate  success  in  the  great  endeavors  you  are  putting  forth  to  correct  the 
many  great  evils  now  existing. — ED.  E.  SHEASGREEN , Secretary  of  the 
Ben  Franklin  Club  of  America. 

[Note:  The  Ben  Franklin  Club  is  an  association  of  employing  printers. 
It  has  accomplished  a notable  task  in  Chicago  in  teaching  the  small  job  printer 
hozv  not  to  sell  his  product  at  a loss;  in  other  words,  how  to  figure  his  actual 
cost  of  production.] 


No.  27 

I know  where  the  trouble  lies,  but  not  the  remedy.  I have  raised  a 
family  of  four  and  tried  to  raise  them  right.  My  girls  had  a better  show 
than  my  boy  did  in  the  purity  race.  The  only  way  to  keep  our  girls  safe  is 
to  keep  our  men  decent  and  in  order  to  keep  them  decent  we  must  see  that 
they  get  a good  self-respecting  wage.  I worked  sixteen  years  in  the  fac- 
tories here  and  I know  of  what  I speak.  Nineteen  years  ago  we  came  to 
this  town,  my  husband  worked  for  $1  a day,  he  is  a day  laborer,  and  we 
(six  of  us)  existed  on  it.  As  the  children  grew  it  required  more  and  more 
to  support  us  and  finally  came  a day  when  ’twas  me  or  our  oldest  daughter 
for  the  mills.  Now  I’ve  always  argued  that  each  generation  should  be 
an  Improvement  on  the  last,  if  it  is  not,  what  is  the  use  of  perpetuating 
the  race?  I decided  that  my  children  should  have  an  education.  My  hus- 
band at  that  time  received  $1.62  per  day,  there  were  six  of  us  to  clothe  and 
feed  and  buy  fuel  and  pay  rent  for.  I have  worked  in  the  laundry,  the 
“over-all”  factory,  the  knitting  factory,  and  the  shell  factory,  so  you  see 

1 know  what  they  are,  and  let  me  tell  you  this:  I think  I would  rather  kill 
my  little  daughter  with  my  own  hand  than  send  her  into  a factory,  it 
would  be  kinder  to  her.  Many  w'omen  have  to  work  as  I had  to,  to  keep 
things  going  and  a woman  can  have  very  little  real  home  comfort  who  has 
to  do  it.  I did  all  my  own  washing,  ironing,  mending,  cooking  and  the 
family  sewing.  I was  never  in  bed  until  12  o’clock  and  often  sewed  until 

2 o’clock  in  the  morning  and  then  rose  in  time  to  get  breakfast  and  start 
to  work  at  6:30.  The  children  did  the  routine  housework  and  studied,  kly 
oldest  daughter  graduated  from  the  high  school  in  1903  and  prepared  her- 
self for  a nurse.  She  is  now  married  to  a good,  steadj^  man,  who  has  a 

position  in  the  postoffice  in  . My  second  daughter  graduated  from 

high  school  in  1908,  prepared  herself  for  a teacher  at  the  Western  State 
Normal;  is  now  Mrs.  of  , Illinois.  Her  hus- 

band is  superintendent  of  schools  there.  Now,  if  I had  not  gone  out  of 
my  home  to  earn  the  money  they  must  have  left  school  and  found  em- 
ployment in  stores  or  factories  and  without  the  advantages  of  education 
they  must  have  been  thrown  into  the  society  of  uneducated  people  and 
could  never  have  made  the  marriages  they  have.  They  would  have  been 
subject  to  lower  order  of  society  and  would  not  have  had  the  training 
to  withstand  temptation  that  a good  education  gives.  I had  the  help  and 
encouragement  of  a good  moral  husband,  who  one  year  worked  enough 
over  time  to  draw  415  days’  wages  in  one  year.  But  here  is  the  point: 
when  a man  sees  his  women  go  out  to  work  to  help  keep  the  family  going, 
it  kills  his  self-respect.  All  men  hate  to  see  their  women  start  out  of  the 
home  but  in  a little  while  they  become  accustomed^  to  it  and  lose  the 
feeling  and  expect  them  to  care  for  themselves.  Women  are  crowding 
men  out  of  work  and  more  and  iiiore  are  assuming  the  burden  of  support, 
not  willinely,  but  because  they  are  obliged  to.  Every  woman  hired  at 
$6,  $8  or  $10  per  week  crowds  out  a man  at  $12,  $15,  $20  and  lowers  the 
wages,  the  man’s  self-respect  and  usefulness,  and  her  own.  Woman  is 
the  natural  home  maker  and  God  Himself  has  so  constituted  her  that  her 
work  is  alreadv  pointed  out.  If  every  laboring  man  received  the  full  equiv- 
alent of  his  labor  there  would  be  very  little  call  for  his  women  kind  to 
leave  the  protection  of  the  home.  Alothers  could  spend  their  time  with 
their  daughters  and  keep  a home  that  the  whole  family  would  want  to 
stay  in,  and  thereby  lessen  the  danger  of  the  present  evil  for  all  concerned. 
There  would  be  more  employment  for  men  if  every  man  who  has  a family 
could  be  assured  of  a wage  that  would  provide  for  them,  and  his  wife 
and  daughters  step  out  of  stores  and  factories  and  offices,  the  idle  men 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


839 


could  go  to  work.  I would  like  to  tell  you  about  some  of  the  things  I’ve 

seen  in  my  sixteen  years  of  factory  life,  but  this  is  already  too  long. — MRS. 

. \Name  and  address  given  by  corrcspundent  and  verified  by  Committee.] 

No.  28 

What  I wish  to  make  mention  of  is  a simple  thing  that  your  Committee 
might  be  aware  of,  but  at  the  same  time  might  not  be  quite  aware  of,  and  it 
is  this:  The  paying  of  small  wages  is  the  important  thing,  but  aside  from 
this,  there  are  many  cases  where  employers  require  a bond  from  their  help 
that  are  only  earning  as  low  as  five  dollars  a week,  and  these  unfortunate 
employes  are  required  to  pay  for  this  bond  out  of  their  earnings ; thus  you 
will  see  that  instead  of  really  earning  five  dollars  they  are  working  for  prob- 
ably three  and  one-half  dollars  instead  of  five.  In  a case  of  this  kind  I feel 
that  where  a person  is  earning  as  low  as  five  or  even  seven  dollars  a week 
the  employer  must  pay  for  the  bond  if  he  insists  on  a bond  from  the  far 
under-paid  employe.  Another  thing  is  this:  Most  cases  you  will  find  that 
an  employe  has  to  pay  for  any  shortage  or  shrinkage  that  may  happen  in  his 
or  her  counter  or  section,  and  at  the  best  and  with  the  smartest  girl  or  woman 
there  is  liable  to  be  some  shortage,  through  unseen  reasons,  and  thus  at 
the  end  of  each  week  she  will  not  get  what  the  employer  will  say  he  pays 
her,  but  will  have  these  small  shortages  taken  off  of  her  wages  and  thus  she 
gets  what  is  left  and  some  cases  when  there  are  shortages  that  are  unaccounted 
for  the  poor  clerk  has  to  stand  the  loss  instead  of  the  employer  who  must 
have  the  advantage  in  each  and  every  turn.  These  are  things  that  will  bring 
out  facts  that  many  employes  are  not  really  getting  what  their  employer 
claims  he  is  paying  them,  but  is  getting  that  salary,  less  the  amounts  that  are 
taken  off  for  these  small  shortages  which  in  most  cases  is  caused  by  simple 
errors  that  anyone  may  make,  and  you  can  see  that  the  poorer  person  has  to 
do  the  suffering.  I trust  that  the  Committee  will  be  aware  of  these  facts 
of  deducting  from  small  salaries  and  that  they  will  be  instrumental  in  legis- 
lation that  will  compel  employers  to  pay  a certain  amount  to  an  employe 
before  he  has  a right  to  deduct  anything  from  his  or  her  salary. — ELMhR  J. 
WOLF. 

No.  29 

With  great  interest  I have  followed  the  investigations  of  your  Committee 
into  the  conditions  which  contribute  to  the  increase  of  the  “White  Slave 
Traffic,”  or  social  vice  question.  There  is  one  phase  to  which  I would  like  to 
ask  your  attention.  It  involves  the  contribution  of  dependent  mothers,  women 
who  because  of  the  loss  of  the  fathers  of  their  children,  either  by  death  or  by 
desertion,  have  been  left  with  a number  of  children  dependent  upon  their 
wage-earning  ability.  For  over  twelve  years  I have  been  trying  to  aid  such 
women  by  such  methods  as  were  possible  of  employment  by  one  whose  means 
were  very  limited.  The  pressure  put  upon  these  women  to  contribute  them- 
selves to  the  ranks  of  women  who  are  lost  body  and  soul  that  they  may  earn 
bread  for  their  dependent  children  is  something  terrific.  Influences  which 
contribute  to  their  despair  are : 

1.  The  so-called  “bread-line  wage”  for  a woman  does  not  include  bread 
for  her  children.  On  the  average  wage  paid  a woman,  and  especially  a 
woman  suddenly  thrust  into  the  wage  market  after  years  of  simple  home 
keeping,  is  wholly  insufficient  for  the  care  of  herself  and  even  one  child. 

In  a number  of  cases  to  which  my  attention  has  been  asked  from  two 

to  five  children  have  been  involved.  Mrs. of  the 

Store,  Chicago,  has  three  boys.  She  could  give  you  some  valuable  in- 
formation regarding  the  struggle  of  such  a woman. 

2.  The  Juvenile  Court,  designed  for  the  benefit  of  dependent  children, 
is  frequently  used  in  such  a manner  as  to  terrorize  these  mothers.  In 
that  court  they  frequently  face  the  dreadful  alternative  of  providing  by 
“hook  or  crook”  for  the  care  of  their  little  ones  or  of  losing  forever  the 
custody  of  their  children.  This  is  not  the  intent  of  the  court,  but  such 
is  the  inevitable  pressure  upon  the  mothers  of  dependent  children  when 
they  know  that  through  this  court  children  are  made  to  pass  wholly  beyond 
the  jurisdiction  or  knowledge  of  the  women  who  gave  them  birth.  The 

case  of  Mrs.  and  her  two  children  in  Judge  Pinckney’s  court 

recently  is  a case  in  point. 


840 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


3.  Child-saving  societies  unwittingly  lend  themselves  to  the  work  of 
pressing  mothers  into  unworthy  efforts  to  support  their  children.  Some 
years  ago  such  a society  gave  a woman  who  was  a mother  of  five  children, 
dependent  wholly  upon  the  earnings  of  the  mother,  three  alternatives. 
First,  pay  the  society  $10  per  week  toward  the  support  of  her  children ; 
second,  legally  surrender  two  or  three  of  her  children  for  adoption;  third, 
remove  them  from  the  institution.  The  woman  was  working  for  this 
same  society  for  $16  per  month.  A fourth  alternative  for  that  mother 
or  any  other  mother  of  small  wage  earning  ability  would  have  been  the 
sale  of  herself  into  sin. 

In  the  early  years  of  the  present  century  a dive  keeper  by  the  name 
of  Lowenson  told  a committee  self-appointed  to  investigate  vice  conditions 
in  this  city  that  the  majority  of  the  women  who  visited  his  resorts  were 
mothers  of  two  or  more  children;  women  who  had  been  deserted  by  husbands, 
or  whose  husbands  had  died ; that  the  wage  of  any  legitimate  labor  in  depart- 
ment stores  or  shops  was  not  sufficient  to  enable  them  to  support  their  children, 
and  so  they  were  driven  into  sin  as  the  only  avenue  by  which  bread  could 
be  earned  for  their  little  ones.  In  1892  a mother  came  from  a hospital  where 
she  had  undergone  an  operation  and  found  that  her  home  was  gone.  Her 
husband  had  sold  the  furniture  and  had  departed  to  parts  unknown.  The 
woman  had  one  child  about  two  years  old.  The  incident  got  into  the  press. 
A dive  keeper,  without  revealing  his  occupation,  wrote  the  woman  to  come 
to  his  place,  where  she  would  find  a good  home  for  herself  and  her  child. 
This  was  the  only  invitation  the  poor  woman  received.  Some  things  to  be 
studied  are: 

First.  The  methods  and  policies  of  child-saving  or  home-finding  so- 
cieties. 

Second.  The  laws  which  make  it  possible  for  the  juvenile  courts 
to  be  used  for  the  purpose  of  annihilating  families  broken  in  part  by 
desertion  or  death  of  father  or  mother. 

Third.  The  indifference  with  which  our  courts  and  their  machinery 
view  desertion  of  their  families  by  husbands  and  fathers.  If  a man 
deliberately  kills  his  children  the  State’s  Attorney  gets  busy.  But  if  a 
man  leaves  his  children  to  die  by  starvation  or  exposure,  no  notice  is  as 
a rule  taken  of  the  incident. 

The  children  of  such  men  are  frequently  brought  into  the  courts  as  de- 
pendents, the  mother  not  being  able  to  support  them  and  also  keep  the  home, 
and  they  are  distributed  to  the  four  corners  of  the  earth,  thus  farther  out- 
raging a mother  whom  the  courts  have  failed  to  protect  by  compelling  the 
father  to  bear  his  responsibility  to  his  family.  For  such  men  Illinois  needs 
a work  house,  where  they  can  compel  them  to  earn  a wage,  the  wage  being 
turned  over  toward  the  support  of  their  families. — ALFRED  C.  KELLY, 
Irvington,  Illinois. 

[Note:  Judge  Merritt  W.  Pinckney  has  served  as  judge  of  the  juvenile 
court  of  Cook  county  since  September,  igo8.  He  has  had  the  unbroken  support 
of  the  influential  women’s  clubs,  the  reform  organisations,  and  the  citizens 
generally.  Criticism  of  certain  features  of  the  juvenile  court  system  is  not 
intended,  according  to  the  Committee’s  understanding,  as  a criticism  of  Judge 
Pinckney,  nor  of  any  other  individual.] 

No.  30 

Pardon  I take  the  privilege  to  write  you  concerning  the  wages  of  piece 
workers  in  factories.  I,  myself,  was  a forelady  in  a children  and  misses 
dresses  factory  last  summer.  Finding  I was  not  able  to  be  a driver  of 
the  poor  Italian,  Bohemian  and  Russian  girls,  and  other  nationality  there 
that  can  not  speak  English,  I felt  I was  not  wanted  because  I tried  to  help 
the  poor  girls  along;  still  wanted  to  be  fair  on  both  sides.  One  girl  made 
$1.38  in  four  days,  some  others  $4.50  per  week;  those  girls  work  hard  to 
earn  that  much,  they  hardly  know  how  much  they  make  before  one,  some- 
times two  weeks,  are  gone.  This  factory  is  at Ave.  But 

the  most  factories  are  run  that  same  way;  only  a few  girls  can  make  fair 
wages;  when  a girl  starts  she  is  promised  $5  per  week  for  the  first  week, 
after  that  she  has  to  earn  it  at  65  cents  per  dozen  dresses.  Also,  I will 
mention  the  piece  workers  in  the  alteration  department  stores  are  not 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence 


841 


paid  fair  wages.  Seven  years  ago  a piece  system  was  started,  where  a girl 
made  58  cents  in  a week;  she  done  everything  so  neat  and  good  for  ten 
daj's,  and  then  was  paid  58  cents  for  the  week  past;  she  cried  bitterly  for 
the  dresses  she  worked  at  were  $50  and  $100  and  more.  I give  my  name 
and  address,  but  please  kindly  do  not  give  my  name  to  any  firm  for  I am 
an  elderly  girl,  and  have  to  work  on  account  I made  very  little  when  I was 
young,  and  have  to  help  my  parent  with  that  little;  some  places  I de- 
manded good  money  for  my  work,  and  got  it;  but  only  to  be  laid  off  so 
soon  that  season  was  over,  and  the  cheaper  girls  were  kept.  I have  a hard 
time  to  make  a living,  but  I am  not  alone;  there  is  many  in  my  circum- 
stances.— MISS . [Name  and  address  given  by  correspondent,  and 

verified  by  the  Committee.] 

No.  31 

I have  followed  with  a great  deal  of  interest  the  investigation  which  your 
committee  has  been  carrying  on  in  Chicago  and  elsewhere.  I feel  quite 
strongly  with  you  that  one  of  the  solutions  of  this  evil  is  paying  all  wage- 
earning women  a living  wage,  but  I do  not  think  that  you  have  at  all 
stressed  the  complementary  truth — that  men  should  be  paid  a marriageable 
wage.  I am  not  sure  but  that  this  is  even  more  important  than  paying 
the  girls  a living  wage,  because  I believe  that  in  many  cases  the  prime 
instigators  of  this  evil  are  men,  and  I am  quite  confident  that  many  men 
who  now  resort  to  this  practice  would  not  do  so  if  they  were  paid  a 
marriageable  wage  so  that  they  would  be  in  a position  to  get  married. 
The  question  is,  to  a very  large  extent,  an  economic  question  affecting 
the  male  sex.  Unless  the  economic  conditions  of  the  male  workers  can 
be  materially  improved,  I fear  we  shall  be  forced  to  advocate  and  practice 
the  use  of  harmless  anti-conceptives,  just  as  these  measures  are  at  the 
present  time  not  merely  being  advocated  but  used  by  a very  large  propor- 
tion of  the  intelligent  people  in  the  Scandinavian,  English,  German  and 
French  countries. — DR.  J.  E.  W.  WALLIN , Director  of  Psychological  Clinic, 
University  of  Pittsburgh. 

No.  32 

Many  of  us  who  have  been  connected  with  social  work  for  a long 
period  of  years  feel  that  we  should  add  our  word  to  what  has  already  been 
said  in  regard  to  the  conditions  that  .promote  vice.  The  suggestion  that 
occurs  to  me  is  that  a large  part  of  the  vice,  in  our  smaller  cities  at  least, 
might  be  diminished  if  there  was  provision  made  for  proper  registration  in 
rooming  houses  and  hotels  and  inspection  of  registration;  also  penalizing 
for  false  registration.  We  find  that  these  public  houses  are  a greater 
menace  to  the  city  than  the  so-called  houses  of  prostitution,  of  which 
there  are  very  few  in  the  smaller  cities.  We  find  every  year  an  unneces- 
sary number  of  young  girls  who  fall  prey  to  the  men  who  bring  them 
to  our  public  hotels  or  rooming  houses  and  register  them  under  false 
names.  Unfortunately,  we  cannot  hold  these  men  under  the  Mann  Act, 
as  they  are  wise  enough  to  bring  only  girls  from  one  part  of  the  state  to 
the  other.  The  establishment  of  a single  standard  of  morality  is  neces- 
sary in  order  to  stamp  out  vice.  Some  provision  to  make  it  impossible 
for  justice  to  be  perverted  to  the  extent  of  the  following  incident  might 
also  assist;  A man  of  mature  years  pleads  guilty  at  the  justice  court 
to  disorderly  conduct;  the  disorderly  conduct  consisting  of  taking  a 
motherless,  foolish,  unprotected  girl  of  16  years  to  the  room  which  he 
rents  in  a lodging  house  where  he  detains  her  for  a night  and  a day. 
For  this  he  receives  a fine  of  $25  and  costs — in  all  about  $34 — and  his 
liberty  is  granted  with  full  privilege  to  resume  his  conduct.  Such  inci- 
dents are  occurring  daily  in  our  justice  courts  in  the  s^’ate.  The  employ- 
ment of  girls  under  21  years  of  age  in  the  public  hotels  in  any  capacity, 
either  as  waitresses  or  chambermaids,  is  regrettable,  at  least.  Can  we 
not  reach  this  in  some  way  by  law? — KATHERINE  C.  SIMONDS,  Probation 
Officer,  Juvenile  Court  of  Knox  County. 

No.  33 

I am  a widow  with  a little  girl  to  support  and  I am  employed  in 
one  of  the  largest  department  stores  on  State  Street,  and  give  my  time 


842 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


from  8;15  a.  m.  to  6 p.  m.,  and  at  present  I am  doing  two  persons’  work 
for  the  small  salary  of  $6  a week,  and  I know  I am  doing  my  duty  to 
my  employer.  Now  I must  clothe  my  little  daughter  and  myself,  pay  rent 
and  buy  food.  My  expenses  for  the  day:  Ten  cents  car  fare,  15  cents 
lunch,  10  cents  child’s  lunch,  SO  cents  a day  for  rent,  30  cents  for  supper; 
making  $1.15,  which  averages  15  cents  more  a day  than  I earn.  Now  I am 
obliged  to  do  a little  sewing  in  the  evening  after  I have  worked  hard  all 
day  to  try  and  make  my  expenses,  and  my  health  is  not  very  good,  and 
not  able  to  do  very  much  in  the  evening.  Now  where  is  the  money  to 
buy  clothes  and  books  for  the  child’s  education?  And  if  a clerk  does  not 
look  just  so,  she  is  sent  home.  How  can  you  expect  a woman  to  take 
care  of  a child  and  herself  on  $6  per  week?  No  one  can  blame  a girl 
or  anyone  for  doing  wrong  when  they  are  obliged  to  work  for  such  wages. 
It  is  the  employers  of  these  stores  that  drive  girls  to  ruin  and  disgrace. 
I am  trying  to  give  my  little  daughter  a good  education  so  she  may  be 
able  to  earn  enough  to  keep  her  from  being  driven  to  ruin.  I sincerely 
hope  this  will  do  some  one  some  good  if  it  don’t  me.  I kindly  ask  you 

to  withhold  my  name. — MRS.  . \_Name  and  address  and  store 

where  employed  given  by  correspondent  and  fully  verified  by  the  Committee.] 

No.  34 

As  you  will  note  by  the  letter  head,  I am  a representative  of  a reform 
organization.  The  city  of  Rockford  is  the  cleanest,  most  up-to-date  city 
in  Illinois,  and  one  of  the  best  in  the  country.  Rockford  does  not  have 
saloons,  houses  of  prostitution,  gainbling  houses  or  other  places  of  that 
character,  and  also  is  a closed  town  on  Sunday.  At  the  coming  city 
election,  April  15th,  we  will  take  a referendum  vote  on  the  opening  of 
moving  picture  shows  on  Sunday.  I look  upon  this  as  being  the  first 
step  toward  a wide  open  town.  The  picture  show  may  not  be  bad  in 
itself,  but  it  lets  down  the  bars.  Then  on  the  other  hand  it  may  be  bad. 
I would  also  like  to  say  that  yourself  and  your  commission  are  taking  a 
step  in  advance  which  is  meeting  with  the  approval  of  more  people  in 
the  State  of  Illinois  and  elsewhere  than  anything  that  has  taken  place  in 
this  state  of  recent  years.  On  every  hand  we  hear  nothing  but  recom- 
mendations and  good  wishes  to  yourself  and  your  committee  in  the  work 
you  are  doing,  and  this  comes  from  Republicans,  Progressives  and  Demo- 
crats alike. — WARD  1.  NICHOLAS,  Superintendent  of  the  Winnebago  County 
Local  Option  League,  Rockford. 

No.  35 

This  is  to  call  your  attention  to  injustice  in  the  name  of  justice,  in 
the  matter  of  professional  bond  sharks,  which  becomes  a part  of  the  vice 
system.  If  you  will  look  up  the  records  of  the  courts  at  Chicago  Avenue 
and  South  Clark  Street  Police  Stations,  you  will  be  able  to  review  just 
what  casual  observers  may  see — the  women  brought  in  for  solicitation, 
etc.,  who  are  bonded,  are  released  with  small  if  anj'  fine,  while  those 
not  so  bonded  are  most  usually  given  sentences  of  heavier  fines.  The 
Civil  Service  Commission  in  1911  recognized  this  fact,  and  on  page  18, 
of  their  Report  of  the  Police  Investigation  of  Chicago,  said: 

Practically  to  them  alone  f plain  clothes  men)  is  assigned  the 
duty  of  arresting  well  known  street  walkers,  and  a marked  difference 
in  the  method  seems  to  prevail  as  to  “regulars”  and  “stragglers.” 
The  “regular,”  i.  e.,  one  who  is  supposedly  under  protection  and  well 
known  to  the  police,  when  it  comes  time  to  make  an  arrest  to  satisfy 
police  conscience,  or  the  demands  of  the  professional  bondsman, 
accommodatingly  goes  to  a quiet  and  appointed  spot  near  the  station, 
convenient  to  the  plain  clothes  men,  and  “stands  for  the  pinch,”  is 
immediately  booked,  out  on  bonds,  signed  by  the  professional  bonds- 
man and  back  on  her  beat  with  but  little  annoyance  or  loss  of  time. 
The  next  day  a nominal  fine  is  imposed  and  the  episode  is  over.  The 
story  of  the  “straggler”  is  different.  She  is  liable  to  be  arrested  by 
any  officer,  and  her  fine  is  apt  to  be  heavy.  She  is  soon  either  driven 
out  of  the  precinct  or  seeks  “protection”  and  becomes  a “regular.” 

This  is  a part  of  the  aggressive  maintenance  of  vice  which  makes 
ifs  destruction  much  more  difficult.  No  one  receiving  any  part  of  the 


Public  Opinion  Reflected  in  Correspondence  843 


price  of  vice  should  be  permitted  by  law  to  engage  in  such  illicit  trans- 
action, which  practically  sends  the  woman  out  to  increase  her  criminality 
to  make  up  for  her  loss.  Probably  bond  sharks  are  the  greatest  promoters 
of  vice  kings,  vice  keepers  and  cadets  and  all  the  machinery  of  the  vice 
system,  which  system  is  necessary  to  a successful  market  where  demand 
develops  for  the  recruits  from  any  cause.  It  is  this  demand  of  the  market 
of  vice  that  makes  possible  the  use  of  so  many  victims,  of  bad  indus- 
trialism, bad  housing,  bad  amusements,  unhappy  marriages  and  of  the 
many  other  causes.  Without  the  market  there  would  be  little  of  commer- 
cialized vice.  Under  the  conditions  of  the  past  few  years,  whatever  pro- 
motes the  market  promotes  vice;  and  whatever  promotes  vice  promotes 
the  market,  so  inter-dependent  have  cause  and  effect  become. — LUCY  A.  HALL, 
Chicago  Deaconess  Home. 


No.  36 

Your  investigation  on  the  probable  connection  between  wages  and 
prostitution  leads  me  to  offer  the  following  data,  which  has  a bearing  on 
this  question  and  were  collected  at  a time  when  economic  and  social 
problems  did  not  complicate  matters  as  they  do  now.  They  are  the  con- 
clusions published  more  than  fifty  years  ago  by  William  W.  Sanger  in 
a “History  of  Prostitution,”  based  on  a long  study  of  2,000  prostitutes 
while  he  was  the  resident  physician  on  Blackwell’s  Island.  The  following 
table  shows  the  relation  of  wages  to  the  number  of  prostitutes: 


Average  Wages, 
Weekly. 

$ 1 

$ 2 

$ 3 

$ 4 

$ 5 

$ 6 

$ 7 

$ 8 

$10 

$50 

Unascertained 


Numbers. 
...  534 
...  336 
...  230 
...  127 
...  68 
. . . 27 
....  8 
....  5 

...  1 
...  1 
, . . . 663 


2000 


In  considering  this  problem  it  is  necessary  that  a distinction  should  be 
drawn  between  immorality  and  illicit  relations  and  prostitution.  So  far 
as  I am  aware  these  figures  represent  the  conclusions  of  those  competent 
to  give  an  opinion  on  this  subject  who  have  studied  the  subject  unbiased. 
It  goes  without  saying  poverty  is  not  the  only  cause  of  prostitution. — /.  H. 
GREENE,  M.D.,  Dubuque,  Iowa. 


No.  37 

There  are  several  large  steamship  lines  out  of  Chicago  during  the 
summer,  and  from  careful  figures  covering  more  than  fifteen  years,  I 
feel  safe  in  saying  that  out  of  more  than  360,000  persons  who  travel  on 
these  boats  during  the  summer,  at  least  25  per  cent  are  girls  from  14  to  22 
years  of  age.  There  is  no  restriction  placed  upon  their  conduct,  and  one 
manager  is  said  to  have  replied  when  questioned,  “I  do  not  care  what 
they  do  so  long  as  they  do  not  murder  and  the  papers  get  hold  of  it.” 
Therfe  is  one  line  that  with  the  aid  of  the  general  manager  I have  had  the 
satisfaction  of  seeing  conducted  with  a strict  set  of  rules  that  prevent  the 
wholesale  downfall  of  girls.  There  is  no  district  in  the  city  of  Chicago 
that  could  be  so  harmful  in  this  direction,  in  five  years’  time,  as  compared 
to  one  summer  season  on  the  excursion  boats  out  of  this  city.  It  would 
seem  that  with  the  aid  of  a national  body  with  power  to  regulate  matters 
this  fearful  condition  could  be  remedied.  I shall  be  glad  to  give  your 
committee  any  facts  I have  in  the  matter  covering  more  than  fifteen 
years  of  observation. — DR.  F.  B.  FELLOWS,  209  S.  State  Street,  Chicago,  III. 


844 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


No.  38 

With  reference  to  your  investigation  of  the  relations  that  wages  bear 
to  immorality,  let  me  direct  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  between  twelve 
and  fourteen  years  ago  the  government  of  Germany  inaugurated  an  inves- 
tigation into  the  immorality  existing  among  female  German  industrial  workers. 
The  report  appeared  in  one  of  the  consular  reports  of  that  day,  and  was 
issued  by  the  Department  of  State.  I think  if  you  would  write  to  Washing- 
ton you  might  be  able  to  get  a copy.  Mj'  recollection  is  that  the  conclusions 
reached  by  the  investigating  committee  ran  to  the  effect  that  girls  of  well-to-do 
families,  who  had  no  need  of  employment  to  obtain  support,  sought  such  em- 
ployment merely  to  enable  them  to  purchase  the  fineries  of  dress  and  jewelry, 
that  the  plainly  dressed  girl  who  was  compelled  to  work  to  support  herself 
soon  came  to  feel  the  difference  in  her  appearance,  and  in  seeking  to  emulate 
her  more  fortunate  sister,  was  left  an  easy  prey  for  designing  men.  I trust 
that  this  suggestion  may  be  of  some  assistance  to  you.— C.  S.  FUNK,  General 
Manger  of  the  International  Harvester  Company,  Chicago. 

No.  39 

I regret  that  absence  from  Washington  prevented  my  attending  the 
conference  to  which  I was  invited.  In  reply  to  your  question,  I beg  to  reply 
as  follows ; I do  not  believe  that  the  general  forms  of  dress  and  amuse- 
ments which  prevail  in  the  social  life  of  well-to-do  women  should,  when 
copied  by  working  girls  of  sound  moral  sense  furnish  any  cause  for  their 
downfall.  Bad  men  and  weak  women  will,  in  my  opinion,  find  incentive  for 
'evil  under  all  conditions,  and  I am  unable  to  see  why  all  the  other  individuals 
in  the  working  girls’  world  should  be  influenced  to  go  wrong  by  the  same 
forms  of  dress  and  amusements  that  are  found  healthy  and  refining  among 
the  members  of  well-to-do  society.  I should  on  the  contrary  expect  that 
the  greater  formality  in  entertainments  and  dress  copied  after  the  methods 
of  the  higher  society  would  probably  act  as  a check  on  those  individuals,  both 
men  and  women,  who  might  be  inclined  to  take  advantage  of  these  ,social 
occasions  to  exercise  their  vicious  inclinations. — MRS.  EDSOA^  BRADLEY, 
1328  Connecticut  Avenue,  Washington,  D.  C. 

No,  40 

I have  read  with  pleasure  the  newspaper  notice  of  the  work  of  the  vice 
commission.  This  commission  is  doing  a great  deal  of  good  in  attracting 
attention  to  the  industrial  conditions  and  the  evils  effecting  such  conditions. 
I am  also  in  sympathy  with  the  idea  of  a minimum  wage  scale  for  women 
to  be  established  by  law.  It  has  occurred  to  me  that  one  way  of  preventing 
vice  in  the  employment  of  women  would  be  to  enact  a law  providirig  that 
any  employer  of  women,  professional  or  otherwise,  or  any  foreman,  manager 
or  man  who  had  control  over  female  employes,  who  should  establish  with 
them  criminal  relations,  should  be  punished  by  confinement  in  the  penitentiary. 

I think  the  penalty  should  perhaps  be  from  one  to  five  years,  leaving  the  judicial 
discretion  to  range  between  these  years.  A law  like  this  would  be  a protec- 
tion to  women  and  tend  to  take  away  the  temptation  from  them.  I think, 
especially  in  great  cities,  that  this  would  strike  hard  and  fast  at  the  seat  of 
much  evil.  You  may  have  thought  of  this  before,  but  it  has  been  a matter 
that  has  pressed  upon  my  attention  for  a number  of  years.  Women  yield 
to  temptation  often  to  prevent  the  loss  of  their  positions,  and  a law  like  this 
would  establish  their  independence  upon  a more  firm  basis.  It  may  be  that 
the  legislature  will  remain  in  session  and  that  nothing  can  be  done  on  this 
law.  If  a special  session  should  be  called  by  the  governor,  action  could  be 
taken  as  indicated.  I should  be  glad  to  co-operate  with  you  any  way  along 
the  line  suggested. — W.  C.  BURAKS,  Attorney,  Chicago.  ' 


RECOMMENDATIONS 

OF  OTHER 

VICE  COMMITTEES 


A digest  of  the  measures  for  the  eradication  of  the 
social  evil  suggested  by  the  municipal  inquisitors  of  Chi- 
cago, Portland,  Philadelphia,  Hartford,  Pittsburgh  and 
Grauid  Rapids,  and  the  state  commissions  of  Wisconsin 
and  Massachusetts. 


4 


./  f r: 


( 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


847 


To  legislators,  and  citizens  generally,  a study  of  the  reports  and  rec- 
ommendations of  state  and  municipal  vice  committees,  created  to  con- 
duct inquiries  in  their  respective  localities  in  recent  years,  is  advised 
by  your  present  committee.  Among  the  committees  whose  reports 
have  been  printed  and,  in  most  cases,  are  available  on  request,  or  may 
be  consulted  for  reference  in  the  larger  public  libraries,  are ; 

Municipal  committees:  Chicago  (1911);  Minneapolis  (1911); 
Grand  Rapids,  Michigan  (1913)  ; Portland,  Oregon  (1913)  ; Philadel- 
phia (1913)  ; Hartford,  Connecticut  (1913)  ; Pittsburgh  (1913). 

State  committees:  Massachusetts  (1914);  Wisconsin  (1914); 
Maryland  (1915). 

For  convenience,  a brief  history  of  these  committees  is  here  given, 
together  with  the  recommendations  submitted. 


CHICAGO. 


The  Chicago  Vice  Commission  was  appointed  by  Mayor  Fred 
A.  Busse  on  March  5,  1910.  Held  first  meeting  on  March  15,  1910, 
and  made  final  report  to  the  mayor  and  city  council  on  April  5, 
1911.  Dean  (now  Bishop)  Walter  T.  Sumner  was  the  brilliant  and 
hard-working  chairman  of  this  committee.  Edwin  W.  Sims  was 
secretary ; and  the  other  members  were : 


Rev.  J.  G.  Kircher 
Louis  O.  Kohtz 
P.  J.  O’Keeffe 
Judge  Harry  Olson 
Judge  M.  W.  Pinckney 
Alexander  Robertson 
Julius  Rosenwald 
L.  E.  Schmidt,  M.  D. 
Bishop  C.  T.  Schaffer 
Edward  M.  Skinner 
Prof.  Graham  Taylor 
Prof.  William  I.  Thomas 
Prof.  Herbert  L.  Willett 
John  L.  Whitman 


W.  L.  Baum,  M.  D. 

David  Blaustein 
Rev.  J.  E.  Callaghan 
Anna  Dwyer,  M.  D. 

W.  A.  Evans,  M.  D. 

Rev.  Albert  Evers 

Rev.  E.  W.  Gunsaulaus,  D.  D. 

W.  W.  Hallam 

Abram  W.  Harris,  LL.  D. 

Wm.  Healy,  M.  D. 

Ellen  M.  Henrotin 
Rev.  Abram  Hirschberg 
Prof.  Charles  R.  Henderson 
Rev.  E.  A.  Kelly 


The  recommendations  submitted  by  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission 
follow : 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  FEDERAL  AUTHORITIES. 

I.  A Federal  Bureau  of  Immigration  should  be  established  in  great 
distributive  centers,  such  as  Chicago,  to  provide  for  the  safe  con- 
duct of  immigrants  from  ports  of  entry  to  their  destination.  Efficient 
legislation  should  be  enacted  and  present  laws  enforced  in  such  a 
manner  as  to  deal  with  the  traffic  in  women  within  the  boundaries 
of  each  state  as  thoroughly  as  the  Federal  authorities  have  dealt 
with  the  international  traffic. 


847 


848 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


II.  The  law  regarding  the  use  of  boats  for  prostitution  purposes 
should  be  enforced. 

III.  The  owners  of  lake  steamers  should  exercise  more  vigil- 
ance in  enforcing  their  rules. 

IV.  There  should  be  more  officers  with  police  powers  on  board 
lake  steamers. 

V.  The  sale  of  intoxicating  liquor  to  minors  should  be  abso- 
lutely prohibited  on  lake  steamers. 

VI.  All  gambling  devices  should  be  suppressed  on  lake  steamers. 

VII.  The  Commission  condemns  the  ease  with  which  divorces 
may  be  obtained  in  certain  states,  and  recommends  a stringent,  uni- 
form divorce  law  for  all  states. 


RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  STATE  AUTHORITIES. 

I.  We  recommend  that  the  state  authorities,  the  Chicago  Medical 
Society,  or  the  Morals  Commission  investigate  and  report  on  mid- 
wives, advertised  maternity  hospitals,  medical  advertisements,  ad- 
vertising doctors  and  regular  physicians  who  are  suspected  of  being 
or  known  to  be  abortionists. 

II.  Physicians  who  advertise  treatment  and  cure  of  venereal 
diseases  should  come  under  the  provisions  of  Section  12,  Chapter  91, 
of  the  Illinois  Revised  Statutes,  providing  for  the  licensing  of  itinerant 
physicians. 

III.  We  recommend  that  the  state  authorities  or  the  Morals 
Commission  conduct  an  investigation  of  employment  agencies. 

IV.  The  advertisements  of  employment  agents  who  advertise  in 
Chicago  papers  published  in  foreign  languages  should  be  carefully 
watched  and  the  advertisers  investigated. 

V.  Publishers  should  be  warned  against  inserting  the  advertise- 
ments of  suspicious  employment  agencies. 

VI.  Emplojment  agents  should  be  carefully  instructed  regarding 
the  law  applicable  to  them. 

VII.  We  recommend  the  enactment  of  a new  Illinois  law  pro- 
viding that  medical  certificates  must  be  secured  showing  bearer  is 
free  from  syphilis,  gonorrhea  and  other  venereal  diseases  before  a 
marriage  license  can  be  issued. 

VIII.  The  law  regarding  infamous  crimes  should  be  altered  and 
made  specific  under  the  guidance  of  scientific  men  who  understand 
these  practices  so  as  to  make  it  clearly  understood  that  society 
regards  these  abhorrent  deeds  as  crimes. 

IX.  We  recommend  the  passage  of  an  amendment  to  the  present 
child  labor  law  to  the  efifect  that  no  person  under  the  age  of  twenty- 
one  shall  be  employed  in  the  night  messenger  service. 

X.  We  recommend  the  enactment  of  state  laws  and  citj’’  ordi- 
nances whereby  a house  of  prostitution  may  be  declared  a public 
nuisance,  and  containing  provisions  expressly  giving  to  any  citizen 
the  right  to  institute  simple  and  summary  proceedings  in  equity  for 
the  abatement  of  the  nuisance. 

XI.  We  recommend  the  repeal  of  the  laws  of  1874,  as  to  houses 
of  ill-fame  or  prostitution  (Chapter  24  Revised  Statutes,  Part  1, 
Article  5,  Section  1,  paragraph  45)  in  so  far  as  such  limits  the  powers 
of  the  Department  of  Health;  and  most  strongly  recommend  the 
enactment  of  such  legislation  as  will  empower  the  Commissioner  of 
Health,  after,  due  investigation,  to  declare  any  such  house  a place  of 
contagious  disease — and  to  order  same  closed  and  abandoned. 

XII.  There  should  be  a relentless  prosecution  and  punishment 
of  professional  procurers. 

XIII.  There  should  be  constant  prosecution  of  all  keepers  and 
inmates  of  existing  houses  of  prostitution,  as  well  as  owners  of  the 
property  rented  or  leased  for  immoral  purposes. 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees  849 

XIV.  There  should  be  a more  strict  supervision  in  licensing  and 
inspecting  the  practice  of  midwives  and  physicians  and  prosecution 
of  druggists  who  sell  drugs  and  certain  appliances  illegally. 

XV.  An  identification  system  for  prostitutes  should  be  estab- 
lished in  the  state  courts. 

XVI.  In  dealing  with  prostitutes  in  the  courts,  fines  should  be 
abolished  and  imprisonment  or  an  adult  probation  system  substituted. 

XVII.  A law  should  be  enacted  providing  a penalty  against  any 
person  who  knowingly  places  or  permits  to  remain  in  a disorderly 
house  or  in  an  unlicensed  saloon,  inn,  tavern  or  other  unlicensed 
place  where  malt  or  spirituous  liquors  or  wine  are  sold,  any  instru- 
ment or  device  by  which  communication  can  be  had  between  such 
disorderly  house,  saloon,  inn,  tavern,  or  unlicensed  place,  and  any 
office  or  place  of  business  or  habitation  of  a corporation  or  person. 

XVIII.  A law  should  be  enacted  providing  a penalty  against 
any  corporation  or  person  employing  messenger  boys,  or  knowingly 
sending  any  messenger  boy  under  twenty-one  years  of  age  to  any  dis- 
orderly house,  unlicensed  saloon,  inn,  tavern,  or  other  unlicensed 
place  where  malt  or  spirituous  liquors  or  wines  are  sold,  on  any 
errand  or  business  whatsoever. 

XIX.  We  recommend  that  immediate  legislation  be  sought  to 

establish  a second  school  for  wayward  girls  in  the  State  of  Illinois, 
said  institution  to  be  established  in  some  other  part  of  the  state, 

rather  than  to  extend  the  institution  at  Geneva.  The  latter  institu- 

tion is  overcrowded  and  the  number  there  are  all  that  can  be  gov- 
erned satisfactorily  by  one  superintendent. 

XX.  We  recommend  legislation  providing  for  the  organization 
of  a sympathetic  agency  with  paid  agents  who  have  followed  a special 
instruction,  and  who  would  be  charged  with  the  regular  supervision 
of  the  children  of  unmarried  mothers. 

XXI.  We  also  recommend  that  the  city  or  county  provide  a 

physician  with  assistants  who  shall  receive  the  reports  of  agents 

and  inquire  into  the  state  of  health  of  such  children  and  care  for  those 
who  are  sick. 

XXII.  We  further  recommend  that  this  general  guardianship 
and  regular  supervision  over  all  such  children  of  the  city  be  ex- 
tended until  they  have  passed  through  the  school  age. 

XXIII.  We  recommend  that  Section  8,  Chapter  17,  of  Hurd’s 
Revised  Statutes  relating  to  Bastardy  be  amended  by  striking  out 
the  words,  “He  shall  be  condemned  by  the  order  and  judgment  of 
the  court  to  pay  a sum  not  exceeding  $100  for  the  first  year  after 
the  birth  of  such  child,  and  a sum  not  exceeding  $50  yearly  for  the 
nine  years  succeeding  said  first  year,  for  the  support,  maintenance 
and  education  of  such  child,”  and  amending  same  so  that  respon- 
sibility for  the  care  and  support  of  the  child  of  an  unmarried  mother 
shall  be  borne  by  the  father  until  the  child’s  majority. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  COUNTY  OFFICIALS. 

I.  We  recommend  the  appointment  of  a permanent  Committee 
on  Child  Protection,  with  ample  funds  from  the  county  treasury. 

II.  All  hospitals  receiving  county  funds  in  whole  or  in  part 
should  be  obliged  to  treat  cases  of  venereal  disease. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  CITY  AUTHORITIES. 

I.  We  recommend  that  the  City  Council  of  the  City  of  Chicago 
enact  an  ordinance  creating  a commission  to  be  known  as  the  “Morals 
Commission  of  the  City  of  Chicago.” 

II.  Enforce  the  laws  and  regulations,  especially  those, 

(a)  Prohibiting  the  harboring  of  prostitutes  and  disorderly 
persons  in  saloons. 


850 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


(b)  Prohibiting  wine  rooms  and  stalls  in  saloons. 

(c)  Prohibiting  assignation  rooms,  houses  of  prostitution 
and  “hotels”  in  connection  with  saloons. 

(d)  Prohibiting  dances  in  buildings  where  there  is  a saloon. 

III.  To  this  end 

(a)  Maintain  a strict  surveillance  of  the  police. 

(b)  Discharge  policemen  who  are  guilty  of  gross  or  petty 

graft  in  their  relations  with  the  saloons.  N 

(c)  Make  frequent  rotation  of  policemen. 

(d)  Provide  investigation  of  complaints,  within  twenty-four 
hours  by  picked  men,  taken  from  “outside”  districts. 

IV.  By  any  proper  means,  especially  by  publicity,  put  pressure 

(1)  Upon  the  Brewers’  Exchange  and  the  Wholesale  Liquor 
Dealers’  Association  members  doing  business  with  saloons 
which  violate  the  laws  or  regulations  referred  to,  or  who  are, 
as  bondsmen,  responsible  for  such  saloons. 

(2)  Upon  the  Retail  Liquor  Dealers’  Association  to  discipline 
members  who  may  violate  these  laws  or  regulations. 

V.  Licenses  of  saloons  that  violate  these  laws  or  regulations 
should  be  permanently,  not  temporarily,  revoked. 

VI.  The  city  should  provide  public  comfort  stations  in  different 
sections  of  the  city,  especially  in  the  loop  district. 

VII.  Licenses  of  saloons  in  the  neighborhood  of  school  houses 
and  other  public  institutions  should  be  revoked. 

VIII.  Give  the  facts  regarding  conditions  in  saloons,  both  gen- 
eral and  detailed,  to  the  public. 

IX.  N'o  women  without  male  escorts  should  be  permitted  in 
saloons. 

X.  No  professional  or  paid  escorts  for  women  should  be  per- 
mitted in  any  saloon. 

XI.  No  solicitation  for  drinks  or  for  prostitution  purposes  by  men 
or  women  should  be  permitted  in  any  saloon. 

XII.  No  immoral  or  vulgar  dances  or  entertainment  should  be 
given  in  any  room  connected  with  saloons. 

XIII.  The  ordinances  prohibiting  wine  rooms  should  be  strictly 
enforced  and  any  attempt  to  provide  booths,  screens,  curtains  about 
tables  in  rear  rooms  of  saloons  should  be  immediately  suppressed. 

XIV.  All  connections  leading  to  rooms  over  saloons  from  any 
part  of  saloon  should  be  immediately  and  permanent!}'  closed. 

XV.  The  violation  of  any  of  these  rules  and  regulations  should 
be  sufficient  to  secure  the  permanent  revocation  of  a saloon  license. 

XVI.  We  recommend  that  no  intoxicating  liquor  be  sold  at  any 
public  dance 

XA’II.  We  recommend  that  an  ordinance  be  passed  providing 
for  a license  fee  of  fifty  dollars  annually  for  the  privilege  of  operating 
a public  dance  hall  and  also  that  a corresponding  Department  of 
Inspection  be  provided. 

XVI.  Prostitutes  who  desire  to  avail  themselves  of  the  oppor- 
tunity, or  who  are  arrested  and  convicted  on  charges,  should  be  sent 
to  an  industrial  home  with  hospital  accommodations.  To  this  end 
such  an  institution  should  be  established. 

XVII.  Semi-delinquent  girls  should  be  segregated  from  delin- 
quents and  more  enlightened  methods  of  care  and  education  be  given 
them.  They  should  not  be  associated  with  prostitutes  or  semi-pro- 
fessional prostitutes. 

X\^III.  A Municipal  Detention  Home  for  Women  should  be  es- 
tablished, controlled  b}'  probation  officers. 

XIX.  The  city  authorities  should  see  to  it  that  immigrants 
arriving  at  the  railroad  station  are  protected  and.  if  necessary,  escorted 
to  . their  destination  within  the  city. 


Recommendation’s  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


851 


XX.  Municipal  dance  halls  should  be  established,  properly 
policed  and  supervised. 

XXI.  The  city  ordinances  regarding  moving  picture  shows  should 
be  revised  in  such  a way  as  to  provide  for  the  presentation  of  pictures 
in  well  lighted  halls. 

XXII.  A municipal  lodging  house  should  be  established  for 
women. 

XXIII.  Wards  should  be  established  in  the  city  hospitals  for 
the  treatment  of  venereal  diseases. 

XXIV.  All  hospitals  receiving  city  funds  in  part  or  in  whole 
should  be  obliged  to  treat  cases  of  venereal  disease. 

XXV.  We  recommend  that  the  municipality  secure  a farm  on 
which  a trade  school  and  hospital  could  be  established  to  which  pro- 
fessional prostitutes  could  be  committed  on  an  indeterminate  sentence. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  CORPORATION  COUNSEL. 

I.  The  city  ordinances  relating  to  houses  of  prostitution  should 
be  enforced. 

II.  The  city  ordinances  prohibiting  advertisements  purporting 
to  treat  and  cure  venereal  diseases  should  be  enforced. 

III.  Daily  papers  that  publish  such  advertisements  should  be 
prosecuted. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  POLICE  DEPARTMENT. 

I.  Accurate  monthly  reports  on  all  places  in  the  city  of  Chicago 
where  immoral  and  dissolute  persons  congregate,  should  be  made  to 
the  General  Superintendent  of  Police  by  inspectors  of  all  police 
divisions. 

II.  If  any  inspector,  captain  or  officer  fails  to  report  to  the 
General  Superintendent  of  Police  all  places  where  immoral  and  dis- 
solute persons  congregate,  as  suspicious  or  otherwise,  he  should  be 
reduced  in  rank  or  dismissed  from  the  service. 

III.  Inspectors  of  police  should  immediately  report  to  the  Gen- 
eral Superintendent  of  Police  all  known  assignation  hotels  and  sus- 
pected places  of  like  character  and  these  places  should  be  immediately 
suppressed. 

IV.  When  complaints  are  received  by  the  General  Superintendent 
of  Police,  he  should  have  them  investigated  by  officers  directly  con- 
nected with  his  private  office,  and  a report  should  be  made  to  him 
direct  at  the  earliest  possible  moment. 

V.  A special  morals  police  squad  should  form  a part  of  the  police 

force  of  the  city.  * 

VI.  We  recommend  that  women  officers  be  added  to  the  police 
force,  whose  duty  should  be  to  render  assistance  to  women  or  girls 
throughout  the  city,  especially  at  all  railroad  stations  or  other  places 
where  inexperienced  women  are  liable  to  need  help.  We  also  recom- 
mend that  some  of  these  women  officers  be  abl  to  speak  foreign 
languages. 

VII.  Police  officers  should  be  compelled  to  designate  whether 
or  not  an  offender  was  charged  with  street  walking,  when  arrests 
are  made  under  Section  270  of  the  Criminal  Code,  and  Sections  1476 
and  1454  of  the  City  Ordinances. 

VIII.  The  General  Superintendent  of  Police  should  direct  all 
police  officers  to  send  to  their  homes  all  children  and  all  young  boys 
and  girls  under  sixteen  years  of  age  found  on  the  streets,  away  from 
their  home  neighborhoods  and  unattended  by  parents  or  guardians, 
after  9 o’clock  in  the  evening. 

IX.  The  police  should  wage  a releptless  warfare  against  houses 
of  prostitution,  immoral  flats,  assignation  rooms,  call  houses,  and 
disorderly  saloons  in  all  sections  of  the  city. 


852  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  DEPARTMENT  OF  HEALTH. 

I.  We  recommend  that  the  Department  of  Health  of  the  City 
of  Chicago  investigate  and  report  the  extent  of  venereal  diseases  in 
Chicago  each  year,  togethsr  with  the  sources  of  infection. 

II.  We  recommend  that  the  Department  of  Health  investigate 
and  report  on  the  question  of  the  practice  of  midwifery  in  Chicago, 
with  such  recommendations  looking  to  its  improvement  as  may  be 
deemed  proper. 

III.  We  recommend  that  the  Department  of  Health  institute 
a rigid  investigation  into  the  use  of  cocaine  and  other  noxious  drugs, 
wdth  a view  at  least  of  limiting  such  sales  by  the  druggists. 

IV.  We  recommend  that  the  Board  of  Health  direct  especial 
attention  to  so-called  massage  practice. 

V.  We  recommend  that  the  Department  of  Health  be  given 
power  to  suppress  as  a public  nuisance  any  place  where  venereal  and 
other  contagious  diseases  flourish. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  BOARD  OF  EDUCATION. 

I.  We  recommend  that  the  Board  of  Education  appoint  a com- 
mittee to  investigate  thoroughly  the  advisability  and  methods  of 
teaching  social  hygiene  to  the  older  pupils  in  the  public  schools. 

II.  Girls  between  the  ages  of  fourteen  and  sixteen  should  receive 
definite  vocational  training  in  continuation  schools. 

II.  We  recommend  that  the  Board  of  Education  extend  the  use 
of  public  schools  as  social  centers. 

IV.  We  recommend  that  schools  grounds  be  open  for  children, 
always  under  close  supervision. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  THE  PARK  COMMISSIONERS. 

I.  The  parks  should  be  better  policed  and  playgrounds  super- 
vised more  carefully. 

II.  Managers  of  dancing  pavilions  should  be  more  vigilant  in 
excluding  professional  prostitutes. 

III.  Soliciting  by  prostitutes  within  park  enclosures  should  be 
rigidly  suppressed. 

IV.  Park  managers  should  extend  greater  protection  to  unac- 
companied young  girls,  especially  in  the  evening. 

V.  Public  parks  should  be  better  lighted  and  equipped  with 
search  lights.  Seats  should  be  removed  from  the  deep  shadows. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  CHURCHES  AND  OTHER 
RELIGIOUS  BODIES. 

I.  Pastors  and  religious  wmrkers  should  aid  in  arousing  public 
opinion  against  the  open  and  flagrant  expression  of  the  social  evil 
in  this  city. 

II.  The  churches  should  endeavor  to  counteract  the  evil  in- 
fluences in  the  community  by  opening  rooms  attached  to  the  church 
buildings  as  recreational  centers  during  week  day  evenings. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  PARENTS. 

I.  Great  emphasis  should  be  placed  on  parental  responsibility 
and  upon  the  effects  of  church  and  school  in  informing  parents  how 
to  safeguard  their  children  in  sex  life  and  relationship. 

II.  Parents  should  demand  a signed  statement  from  a reputable 
physician  that  the  man  asking  permission  to  marrj-  their  daughter 
is  free  from  venereal  disease. 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


853 


III.  We  recommend  the  careful  examination  of  all  printed 
material  offered  to  children  and  purporting  to  give  helpful  instruc- 
tion along  sexual  lines,  and  the  suppression  of  such  as  is  evidently 
vicious  in  intent.  Publishers  and  book  sellers  should  not  be  allowed 
to  sell  this  material  to  children. 

RECOMMENDATIONS  TO  PHILANTHROPIC  AND  OTHER 
ORGANIZATIONS. 

I.  An  Intensive  study  should  be  made  of  the  working  conditions 
and  wages  paid  by  those  establishments  in  Chicago  which  depend 
upon  the  labor  of  girls  and  women.  This  investigation  should  also 
ascertain  living  conditions,  cost  of  living  of  different  groups,  and  de- 
cide on  what  constitutes  a “living  wage”  for  each  group. 

II.  Greater  publicity  should  be  given  the  conditions  which  exist 
on  lake  steamers  so  that  parents  will  warn  their  sons  and  daughters 
of  the  moral  dangers  surrounding  them  while  on  such  excursions. 

III.  I mmigrant  homes  for  foreign  girls  should  be  established 
and  supported  by  different  nationalities. 

IV.  Immigrant  girls  should  be  warned  not  to  go  to  employment 
agents  who  advertise  in  the  press,  especially  in  foreign  languages, 
until  the  agents  have  been  investigated. 

V.  More  hotels  and  homes  should  be  established  for  working 
women  and  girls. 

VI.  Provision  for  the  rescue  and  reform  of  prostitutes  should 
include  some  plan  for  the  hospital  care  of  drug  users. 

GENERAL  RECOMMENDATIONS. 

1.  We  recommend  that  the  daily  press  publish  an  appeal  or 
protest  to  parents  that  their  children  be  not  given  too  much  liberty; 
that  parents  and  guardians  accompany  children  of  all  ages  upon  their 
amusement  excursions. 


PITTSBURGH. 

The  Pittsburgh  Morals  Efficiency  Commission  was  created 
April  16,  1913,  by  ordinance  of  the  City  Council.  Members  ap- 
pointed April  26,  1913,  by  Mayor  William  A.  Magee.  Made  final 
report  to  Council  same  year.  The  chairman  of  the  Commission  was 
Dr.  Frederick  A.  Rhodes;  the  secretary,  George  Seibel;  the  treasurer, 
William  Lincoln  Stewart;  and  the  other  members  Rabbi  Rudolph  I. 
Coffee,  Mrs.  John  H.  Armstrong,  Prof.  John  H.  Leete,  Lawrence 
Litchfield,  Edwin  L.  Mattern,  Charles  A.  Poth,  Miss  Suzanne  S. 
Beatty,  Prof.  Frederic  S.  Webster  and  Miss  Mary  S.  Flinn. 

The  fecommendations  of  the  Pittsburgh  Morals  Efficiency  Com- 
mission follow : 

(1)  The  creation  of  a permanent,  non-partisan  Bureau  of  Public 
Morals  to  deal  with  the  social  evil;  such  bureau  to  consist  of  seven 
representative  men  and  women,  to  be  separate  from  the  police  system, 
and  to  have  adequate  powers  and  funds  for  procuring  information 
and  enforcing  the  law  by  its  own  officers  and  agents. 

(2)  Legislation  providing  a minimum  wage  for  women  and 
minors,  together  with  obligatory  moral  and  hygienic  protective 
measures  to  be  used  by  extensive  employers  of  female  labor.  Trained 
social  workers  of  both  sexes  should  be  employed  by  department  and 
other  stores  and  factories  having  large  numbers  of  employes,  to 
give  personal  instruction  in  a competent  and  sympathetic  manner 


854  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


to  the  said  employes,  in  sexual  hygiene,  the  danger  of  venereal  dis- 
eases, and  the  necessity  of  prompt  and  efficient  treatment  of  the 
same. 

(3)  A_  medical  certificate  should  be  a prerequisite  to  the  issuance 
of  a marriage  license.  (The  Richards  Marriage  License  Act  is  a 
step  in  this  direction.) 

(4)  _ Any  child  born  out  of  wedlock  should  have  all  the  rights 
of  a legitimate  child  in  case  the  paternity  of  such  child  is  established 
before  a competent  tribunal  during  the  lifetime  of  its  father. 

(5)  The  pandering  act  should  be  broadened  so  as  to  make  pun- 
ishable the  practice  of  many  men  in  various  callings  who  furnish  the 
addresses  of  prostitutes  or  of  houses  of  prostitution  or  assignation. 
Hotel  clerks  and  bell-boys,  waiters  and  bartenders,  taxicab  drivers, 
messenger  boys,  and  sometimes  policemen  are  guilty  of  this  pandering 
practice. 

(6)  The  Department  of  Health,  or  the  Bureau  of  Police,  or 
some  other  agency,  should  have  authority  to  subject  every  inmate 
or  habitue  of  a house  of  prostitution,  as  often  as  deemed  necessary, 
to  medical  examination  with  microscopic  tests;  and  if  found  to  be 
afflicted  with  any  venereal  disease,  such  person  shall  be  sent  to  some 
municipal  hospital  or  place  of  quarantine,  and  there  shall  be  held 
until  cured  or  found  to  be  incurable;  and  any  man  having  a com- 
municable venereal  disease,  who  shall  visit  a house  of  prostitution 
for  the  purpose  of  sexual  intercourse,  shall  be  subject  to  arrest, 
examination  and  imprisonment. 

(7)  All  communicable  venereal  diseases  should  be  reported  to 
the  Department  of  Health  by  the  physician  treating  the  same,  with 
the  initials  of  the  patient  and  the  source  of  the  contagion,  when 
possible.  (A  bill  presented  to  the  legislature  failed,  but  will  be  pre- 
sented again  at  the  next  session.) 

(8)  A municipal  hospital  with  separate  wards  for  the  treatment 
of  gonorrhea  and  syphilis  should  be  established,  together  with  sub- 
sidiary free  dispensaries. 

(9)  All  hospitals  receiving  state  aid  should  be  open  to  patients 
suffering  from  venereal  diseases,  at  the  discretion  of  the  medical 
staff. 

(10)  The  very  harmful  effects  of  specious  advertisements  con- 
cerning questions  of  sex  and  remedies  for  venereal  diseases  should 
be  met  by  the  rigid  enforcement  of  prohibitive  legislation.  Druggists 
who  prescribe  for  venereal  affections  ought  to  be  dealt  with  sum- 
marily, and  the  sale  of  patent  nostrums  for  these  affections  entireh' 
prohibited. 

(11)  All  births  should  be  reported  to  the  Department  of  Health 
within  twelve  hours,  and  the  Department  of  Health  should  send 
immediately  to  the  parents  a circular  letter  of  instruction  directing 
that  the  eyes  of  all  new-born  children  shall  be  carefully  watched, 
and  a physician  notified  at  the  first  signs  of  inflammation;  and  further- 
more, that  all  cases  of  ophthalmia  neonatorum  shall  be  reported  as 
contagious  diseases,  with  a penalty  for  omission.  (The  Act  of  June 
5,  1913,  “For  the  Prevention  of  Blindness,”  has  been  passed  by  the 
legislature  in  accordance  herewith.) 

(12)  Confirmed  criminals  and  degenerates  should  be  sterilzed. 

(13)  Better  censorship  of  moving  picture  shows  and  supervision 
of  their  frequenters.  Besides  the  nickelodeons,  some  of  the  cheaper 
vaudeville  theaters,  all  of  the  so-called  burlesque  shows,  and  some 
of  the  high-priced  revues  and  musical  comedies  ought  to  be  censored 
and  many  of  them  suppressed.  The  vulgar  and  brainless  burlesque 
shows  are  patronized  by  manv  young  boys,  who  there  are  schooled  in 
viciousness  and  have  their  minds  filled  with  filth. 

(14)  More  stringent  license  provisions  for  public  dances  and 
supervision  thereof. 

(15)  There  should  be  ample  illumination  in  parks,  public  re- 
creation grounds  and  vacant  spaces. 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


855 


(16)  Employment  agencies  should  be  registered  and  watched 
more  strictly. 

(17)  The  establishment  of  a house  of  detention,  of  a night  court, 
of  separate  hearings  for  female  offenders,  and  the  employment  of 
women  as  police.  (See  Appendix  B.) 

(18)  Street-walkers,  “mashers,”  and  all  solicitation  should  be 
prohibited  and  suppressed,  with  penalty  of  imprisonment,  not  fine. 

(19)  The  laws  against  procurers  and  cadets  and  the  “white 
slave”  traffic  should  be  rigidly  and  unremittingly  enforced,  with 
penalty  of  imprisonment,  not  fine. 

(20)  Every  keeper  of  a lodging  or  rooming  house  in  the  city 

should  be  required  to  have  a license  to  conduct  such  business,  which 
license  should  be  revocable  for  cause;  and  he  shall  keep  an  accurate 
register  of  all  lodgers  or  roomers,  open  at  all  times  to  the  inspection 
of  the  police.  , j 

(21)  Transfer  companies  should  send  to  the  Department  of 
Public  Safety  daily  the  names  of  all  persons  moved,  with  old  and  new 
address. 

(22)  All  police  officers  should  report  daily  the  names  of  all 
persons  moving  into  or  out  of  their  beats,  with  old  and  new  address. 

(23)  Physicians  should  be  educated  in  medical  schools,  hospi- 
tals, and  medical  societies  to  a realization  of  higher  medical  ethics 
and  the  obligations  which  rest  upon  them,  so  that  they  will  no  longer 
be  the  mute  accessories  to  the  venereal  infection  of  innocent  persons 
through  unholy  marriage. 

(24)  Churches  and  schools  should  be  used  as  social  centers  to 
counteract  the  evil  influence  of  the  dance  hall,  the  pool-room,  and 
other  questionable  places  of  amusement.  Especially  might  the 
churches  do  great  good  if,  during  the  week,  they  should  conduct 
moving  picture  shows  of  educational,  moral  and  artistic  value. 

(25)  Greater  and  more  frequent  emphasis  of  parental  respon- 
sibility by  the  ministry  and  the  press. 

(26)  An  educational  policy,  for  children  below  the  eighth  grade, 
tending  to  divert  their  minds  from  sexual  thoughts,  with  careful 
surveillance  for  any  cases  of  sexual  precocity,  advising  the  parents 
of  such  children;  in  the  eighth  grade  and  high  schools  such  delicate 
moral  and  hygienic  instruction,  by  men  to  the  boys  and  by  women 
to  the  girls,  as  will  inculcate  reverence  for  the  mysteries  of  sex 
and  emphasize  the  penalties  of  sin.  Courses  in  sex  hygiene  in  all 
pedagogical  institutions  preparing  teachers  for  their  vocation. 

(27)  The  women’s  clubs  should  organize  a Women’s  Protective 
Bureau  to  advocate  and  promote  the  single  standard  of  morals.  The 
man  of  immoral  life  should  be  ostracised  as  relentlessly  as  the  woman. 
As  long  as  he  is  tolerated  in  society  and  patronized  in  business, 
to  revile  and  persecute  the  prostitute  is  a hypocritical  farce.  The 
women’s  clubs  can  do  much  to  enforce  the  single  standard  of  morals 
if  they  will  create  such  a bureau  and  compile  a blacklist  of  immoral 
men,  especially  of  employers  who  make  improper  advances  to  women 
in  their  employ,  with  due  care  against  the  machinations  of  spite- 
work  and  blackmail. 

(28)  Legislation  should  be  enacted  by  all  the  states  to  make  the 
giving  or  receiving  of  money,  or  any  other  valuable  consideration, 
for  participation  in  any  act  of  immorality,  a felony  punishable  with 
imprisonment  and  fine.  The  success  of  the  Federal  white  slave  act 
proves  that  such  legislation  is  practicable,  and  it  alone  will  ultimately 
wipe  out  commercialized  vice.  The  Swift  Injunction  Law  is  useful 
but  inadequate. 


856 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


HARTFORD. 

The  Hartford  Vice  Commission  was  created  in  January,  1912,  1 
by  resolution  of  Common  Council.  Funds  donated  by  citizens;  no  i 
public  funds  appropriated.  Dr.  Ernest  A.  Wells,  chairman.  Other  i 
members : J.  Gilbert  Calhoun,  vice-chairman ; William  P.  Calder,  j 
secretary  and  treasurer;  Mrs.  Isaac  W.  Kingsbury,  Librarian;  i 
Flavel  S.  Luther,  LL.  D.,  Martin  Toscan  Bennett,  Miss  Martha  i 
J.  Wilkinson,  Wm.  H.  C.  Whiting,  Morgan  B.  Brainard,  Gustav 
A.  Kleene,  Ph.  D.,  Thomas  F.  Welch,  M.  D.,  Edward  B.  Hooker, 
M.  D.,  John  G.  Gill,  Ph.  D.,  Walter  S.  Schutz,  Hon.  Edward  L.  Smith.  I 
The  Hartford  Vice  Commission  made  the  following  recommenda-  i 
tions : 

(1)  That  the  present  policy  of  keeping  the  houses  of  prostitution 
closed  be  adhered  to  rigidly. 

(2)  That  this  policy  of  repression  be  extended  to  prostitution 
in  connection  with  disorderly  saloons,  cafes,  rooming  houses  and 
hotels. 

(3)  That  a special  fund  be  appropriated  each  year  and  placed 
at  the  disposal  of  the  mayor  and  the  chief  of  police  for  use  in  em- 
ploying detectives  from  outside  the  city  whenever  it  appears  that  the 
police  department  is  hampered  by  the  fact  that  its  own  detectives  are 
two  well  known. 

(4)  That  there  be  no  discrimination  in  respect  to  sex  or  social 
standing  in  the  efforts  to  suppress  the  social  evil. 

(5)  That  our  citizens  take  a special  interest  in  the  personnel 
and  policies  of  the  police  court. 

(6)  That  favorable  consideration  be  given  to  the  question  of 
adding  women  to  our  police  force,  either  as  special  officers  or  as 
additional  probation  officers,  to  do  preventive  work  among  girls. 

(7)  That  an  ordinance  be  enacted  to  insure  adequate  lighting 
of  the  moving  picture  theaters. 

(8)  That  the  statute  concerning  the  admission  of  children  to 
theaters  and  moving  picture  houses  be  enforced. 

(9)  That  the  tenement  house  laws  be  rigidly  enforced  and  strong 
efforts  made  to  furnish  additional  facilities  for  recreation  under 
wholesome  conditions. 

(10)  That  the  Board  of  Health  be  requested  to  furnish  laboratory 
facilities  to  aid  in  the  diagnosis  and  treatment  of  venereal  diseases; 
and  that  the  Board  of  Health  be  further  requested  to  secure  the 
annoymous  registration  of  such  diseases. 

(11)  That  careful  consideration  be  given  the  problem  of  sex 
education. 

(12)  That  legislation  be  enacted  along  the  lines  of  the  Iowa 
Injunction  and  Abatement  Law. 

(13)  That  a law  be  passed  containing  the  provisions  of  the  Tin 
Plate  ordinance  of  the  city  of  Portland,  Oregon. 

(14)  That  legislation  be  enacted  raising  the  age  of  consent  for 
women  to  eighteen  years;  and  together  with  this,  legislation  estab- 
lishing degrees  of  rape  in  such  manner  that  boys  convicted  of  sexual 
relations  with  willing  girls  below  the  age  of  consent  be  not  punished 
as  severely  as  mature  men. 

(15)  That  action  be  taken  to  establish  a State  Reformatory  for 
W omen. 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


857 


MINNEAPOLIS. 

The  Vice  Commission  of  Minneapolis  was  created  in  summer 
of  1910,  on  petition  of  citizens,  by  Mayor  James  C.  Haynes.  Re- 
port, submitted  in  July  of  1911,  is  unusually  well  written,  the  chair- 
man, Rev.  Marion  D.  Shutter,  being  the  author.  Is  largely  de- 
voted to  an  argument  against  segregation.  The  members  of  the 
Committee  were  Rev.  Marion  D.  Shutter,  Eugene  T.  Lies,  Rev. 

Created  in  summer  of  1910,  on  petition  of  citizens,  by  Mayor  James 
C.  Haynes.  Report,  submitted  in  July  of  1911,  is  unusually  well  writ- 
ten, the  chairman.  Rev.  Marion  D.  Shutter,  being  the  author.  Is 
largely  devoted  to  an  argument  against  segregation.  The  members  of 
the  Committee  were  Rev.  Marion  D.  Shutter,  Eugene  T.  Lies,  Rev. 
Father  James  M.  Cleary,  Judge  Edward  F.  Waite,  Prof.  John  H. 
Gray,  Prof.  David  H.  Painter,  Dr.  Herbert  O.  Collins,  Dr.  Max  P. 
Vander  Horck,  Edward  J.  Davenport,  Nicholas  C.  O’Connor,  Charles 
M.  Way,  Gilbert  L.  Byron,  Stiles  P.  Jones,  Dr.  Mabel  S.  Ulrich,  and 
Mrs.  Mary  L.  Starkweather. 

The  recommendations  of  the  Vice  Commission  of  Minneapolis  were : 

I.  LAW  ENFORCEMENT. 

Inasmuch  as  legalization  of  the  social  evil  is  practically  impossible, 
and  even  if  possible  would  be  immoral;  and  since  the  toleration  of 
a recognized  violation  of  law  is  demoralizing  to  a community,  and 
to  its  public  guardians,  the  police;  and  for  the  further  reasons  already 
stated  in  previous  chapters;  therefore  we  recommend  to  your  Honor 
the  continuance  of  that  policy  of  strict  law  enforcement  begun  in 
April,  1910,  when  your  Honor’s  order  closed  the  last  “Red  Light” 
district  in  the  city;  and  emphasized  by  the  order  of  November,  1910, 
by  which  vicious  women  were  excluded  from  the  saloons.  We  are  of 
the  settled  and  unanimous  opinion  that  law  enforcement  ought  to  be 
a permanent  administrative  policy  of  our  city  government,  to  the  full 
extent  of  the  resources  of  the  police  department. 

• .i 

11.  INCREASED  POLICE  VIGILANCE. 

Increased  vigilance  by  the  police,  under  such  a policy  will  un- 
doubtedly be  necessary. 

1.  If  experience  shows  that  the  situation  demands  additions  to 
the  force  to  make  effective  the  policy  of  law  enforcement  against 
public  prostitution,  they  should  be  promptly  forthcoming.  We  have 
elsewhere  suggested  such  increase.  We  believe  the  Minneapolis  com- 
munity will  willingly  consent  to  additions  to  the  department  for  this 
purpose;  and  we  incline  to  the  opinion  that  good  results  would  be 
obtained  by  the  appoinment  of  a few  women  police  officers  with  this 
as  their  special  field  of  duty. 

2.  That  the  police,  even  when  they  are  most  faithful  in  the  sup- 
pression of  vice,  often  encounter  the  gravest  difficulties  in  obtaining 
legal  evidence,  should  be  remembered  by  the  public;  but,  after  all, 
the  forces  of  evil  are  timid  in  the  presence  of  an  honest  and  determined 
police  department;  and  when  it  is  known  that  a policy  of  tolerance 
has  been  permanently  abandoned,  and  a system  of  suppression  definitely, 
sincerely,  and  finally  determined  upon,  the  battle  is  already  half  won. 

3.  As  an  adjunct,  however,  to  an  effective  policy  of  suppression, 
your  Commission  believe  there  must  be  a well  grounded  understand- 
ing on  the  part  of  would-be  law-breakers  that  deliberate  offences  will 


858  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

be  visited  with  severe  penalties.  A fine  is  no  detriment  to  an  actual 
or  potential  keeper  of  a disorderly  house. 

III.  CO-OPERATION  OF  CITIZENS. 

It  is  the  duty  of  citizens  as  well  as  of  the  police,  to  take  up  arms 
against  the  encroachment  of  evil;  and  a house-holder  who  is  afraid 
to  attach  his  name  to  a complaint  should  be  slow  to  condemn  the 
police  if,  without  his  aid,  they  do  not  move  as  swiftly  and  effectively 
as  he  would  like.  Indeed,  your  Commission  are  of  the  opinion  that 
if  the  citizens  of  Minneapolis  desire  a continuance  of  the  present  policy 
of  suppression,  and  wish  to  make  it  as  effective  as  it  may  become,  they 
should  provide  for  permanent  assistance  to  the  police,  through  organ- 
ized, though  unofficial,  vigilance.  The  people  of  each  communitj^  may 
combine  to  assist  the  police  in  keeping  out  disorderly  houses.  No 
one  should  claim  the  privileges  of  citizenship  without  accepting  its 
responsibilities. 


IV.  REGULATION  OF  DOWN-TOWN  HOTELS  AND 
LODGING  HOUSES. 

Your  Commission  have  referred,  in  their  study  of  present  condi- 
tions, to  the  hotel  or  lodging  house,  which  caters  to  prostitution. 
Places  of  this  sort  may  be  found  in  large  numbers  on  the  business 
streets,  especially  along  Washington  Avenue  and  in  central  portions 
of  the  city.  So  far  as  they  are  used  by  mature  prostitutes  who  live 
in  down-town  lodgings  or  residence  districts,  and  who  resort  to  them 
for  secrecy  or  convenience,  with  partners  procured  through  the  various 
devices  of  their  calling,  the  public  need  not  be  greatly  concerned  about 
them.  If  there  is  an  irreducible  minimum  of  prostitution,  probably 
it  could  be  carried  on  in  no  w'ay  less  harmful  to  the  morals  of  the 
community  at  large.  Those  who  are  damaged  by  such  places  as  public 
nuisances  can  move  against  them  effectually,  if  they  choose.  But  in 
their  character  of  adjuncts  to  the  debauchery  of  children  these  places 
assume  an  aspect  of  the  very  gravest  importance.  To  them  are  taken 
the  young  girls,  who,  through  the  criminal  folly  of  parents,  or  their 
own  waywardness,  are  exposed  at  night  and  without  protection  to  the 
indiscriminate  associations  of  the  dance  hall,  the  theater  or  picture 
show,  the  down-town  cafe  and  the  street;  to  them  the  child  prostitute 
conducts  the  foolish  boy  whom  she  has  entangled  in  her  snare.  No 
questions  are  asked;  a pretended  register  is  usuallj-  presented,  “John 
Smith  and  wife”  is  written  upon  it,  and  a room  assigned.  The  situ- 
ation is  too  obvious  to  deceive  anybody;  and  yet  such  are  the  safe- 
guards which  our  present  laws  throw  around  the  lawbreaker  that  it 
is  exceedingly  difficult  to  hold  the  keeper  of  the  place  to  criminal 
responsibility.  Often  when  mere  children,  or  couples  of  whom  one  is 
a mere  child,  have  been  taken  from  rooms  which  they  have  been  occupy- 
ing at  night  in  places  of  this  sort,  prosecution  has  failed  because  the 
judge  could  not  be  sure  “beyond  a reasonable  doubt”  that  the  parties 
were  not  man  and  wife,  as  the  “register”  represented. 

1.  Your  Commission  recommend  that  to  remedy  this  evil,  steps 
be  taken  commensurate  with  its  gravity.  If  it  can  be  lawfullj-  done, 
an  ordinance  should  be  passed  containing  the  following  requirements, 
violations  of  which  should  be  presumptive  evidence  that  the  place  is 
a disorderly  house: 

(1)  No  hotel  or  lodging  house  keeper  shall  assign  a room  to  two 
persons  of  opposite  sex  (except,  of  course,  in  case  of  small  children 
with  a parent  or  other  custodian),  unless  they  are  entered  as  husband 
and  wife  upon  a bona  fide  register.  Fictitious  names  will,  of  course, 
be  used;  but  the  register  should  be  an  actual  one,  used  for  all  guests, 
and  correct  in  all  particulars  which  are  within  the  contiol  of  the 
proprietor. 

(2)  The  correct  hour  of  the  assignment  of  the  room  shall 
be  entered  upon  the  register. 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


859 


(3)  No  room  shall  be  rented  to  more  than  one  couple  between 
9 p.  m.  and  6 a.  m. 

(4)  A room  shall  not  be  rented  to  a couple  one  of  whom  is  a 
minor,  unless  they  have  bona  fide  baggage  or  are  vouched  for  as 
husband  and  wife  by  a reputable  resident  of  the  city,  or  unless  per- 
mission is  secured  from  the  police. 

The  effect  of  such  an  ordinance,  if  valid,  would  be  to  throw 
upon  the  violator  the  burden  of  exculpating  himself  from  criminal 
intent;  and  it  would  cause  the  lodging  house  business  to  be  conducted 
with  greater  discrimination. 

2.  Lodging  house  licenses  ought  not  to  be  authorized  by  the 
city  council  unless  the  applicant  is  of  ascertained  good  character. 
It  has  recently  been  decided  by  the  municipal  court  that  such  a 
license  can  be  withheld  at  the  discretion  of  the  city  council,  even 
when  the  sanitary  requirements  of  the  ordinance  have  been  complied 
with.  This  enables  the  council  to  be  of  much  service  in  closing 
these  gateways  of  destruction  that  now  stand  wide  open  to  the 
children  of  the  city. 

3.  But,  in  any  event.  Your  Honor  has  the  undoubted  right  to 
revoke  at  discretion  the  license  of  the  keeper  of  a hotel  or  lodging 
house  whose  methods  you  are  satisfied  are  vicious,  even  if  the  proof 
is  not  such  as  would  warrant  conviction  in  court.  We  recommend 
the  use  of  this  power  in  appropriate  cases.  The  police,  even  when 
they  are  complacent  toward  some  forms  of  vice,  will  be  vigilant  in 
safeguarding  our  children;  and  evidence  that  will  be  convincing,  and 
that  will  justly  warrant  executive  action,  can  easily  be  obtained 
against  persistent  offenders  of  this  sort. 

V.  IN  THE  INTERESTS  OF  PUBLIC  HEALTH  AND  SAFETY. 

In  the  interest  of  public  health  and  safety  your  committee  recom- 
mend: 

1.  There  are,  at  present,  no  hospital  facilities  for  the  treatment 
of  gonorrhoeal  or  acute  syphilitic  cases  in  the  city  of  Minneapolis, 
as  neither  the  City  Hospital  nor  private  hospitals  will  receive  them. 
Your  Commission  recommend  that  such  provision  be  made  as  early 
as  possible,  and  in  such  manner  and  place  as  the  Health  Authorities 
of  the  City  may  determine. 

2.  We  recommend  to  the  organized  physicians  of  the  city  that 
before  the  next  meeting  of  the  state  legislature  they  carefully  consider 
the  laws  by  which  various  European  countries  and  some  of  our 
sister  states  attempt  to  prevent  the  spread  of  venereal  diseases. 
Such  laws  provide  for  physical  examination,  with  medical  certifi- 
cate, as  a prerequisite  to  marriage;  for  reports  to  health  authorities, 
by  the  attending  physician,  of  venereal  as  well  as  other  contagious 
diseases;  for  the  punishment  of  the  willful  or  grossly  negligent 
transmission  of  these  diseases;  for  the  compulsory  instillation  into 
the  eyes  of  every  new-born  child  of  a suitable  solution  for  the  pre- 
vention of  infant  blindness,  90  per  cent  of  which  is  caused  by  the 
gonorrhoeal  germ.  The  study  of  such  laws  and  their  operation  else- 
where will  doubtless  suggest  some  practical  advance  in  this  difficult 
but  important  field.  Anything  less  than  the  most  wisely  conceived 
and  skillfully  constructed  legislation  upon  these  subjects  would,  we 
believe,  be  worse  than  useless. 

3.  We  further  recommend  that  the  law  be  broadened,  if  neces- 
sary, so  that  the  State  Board  of  Medical  Examiners  be  given  sufficient 
powers  and  funds  to  adequately  control  the  quacks  specializing  in 
venereal  diseases. 

4.  Also  that  the  present  ordinances  of  the  city  in  regard  to  the 
advertising  of  cures  for  venereal  diseases  be  rigorously  enforced, 
and  if  found  inadequate  that  they  be  so  amended  as  to  permit  of  the 
complete  suppression  of  this  great  evil. 


860 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

VI.  MEASURES  OF  PREVENTION. 


While  your  Commission  believe  in  the  enforcement  of  existing- 
laws,  and  in  such  modifications  of  the  laws  and  ordinances  as  will 
even  more  effectually  suppress  the  evils  of  prostitution,  punish  law- 
breakers, _ and  protect  the  public  health — they  believe  still  more 
strongly  in  the  institution  of  such  preventive  measures  as  will  cut  off, 
to  a great  extent,  the  sources  of  the  traffic’s  supply. 

Such  preventice  measures  are  to  be  found  (a)  along  Educational 
lines,  (b)  in  larger  Recreation  facilities,  (c)  in  better  Economic  con- 
ditions, and  (d)  in  certain  provision  for  institutional  care. 

A.  Education. 

1.  That  serious  attention  be  given  by  school  authorities  to  the 
question  of  closer  co-operation  between  school  and  home,  as  a result 
of  which  there  would  develop  a common  knowledge  and  a common 
method  with  respect  to  the  solution  of  the  sex  problems  of  youth. 

2.  That  school  teachers  recognize  their  great  opportunity  of 
laying  persistent  emphasis  upon  the  truth  that  the  familv  is  our 
greatest  institution  for  the  development  of  happy  and  wholesome 
living,  and  shape  all  instruction  towards  that  goal. 

3.  That  domestic  science,  or  preferably  home-making,  be  given 
an  increasingly  important  place  in  our  public  school  curriculum. 

4.  That  in  our  public  schools  carefully,  graded  sex  instruction 
be  gradually  introduced  under  conditions  to  be  determined  upon  by 
the  Board  of  Education,  the  Superintendent,  and  a Committee  of 
school  principals  and  teachers. 

5.  That  in  order  that  teachers  and  social  workers  mav  them- 
selves be  trained,  colleges,  normal  schools,  medical  and  theological 
institutions,  schools  of  philanthropy,  and  others — wherever  they  have 
not  already  done  so — place  the  subject  in  their  courses  of  study  and 
give  instruction  in  the  most  effective  methods  of  teaching  the  same. 

B.  Larger  Recreation  Facilities. 

These  have  real  therapeutic  value  and  make  for  right  living. 

An  equipment  of  health,  together  with  fine  life  enthusiasm,  is  an 
equipment  against  vicious  tendencies  of  all  sorts.  Our  recommenda- 
tions are  based  on  these  considerations  and  run  as  follows: 

1.  More  playgrounds  properly  distributed,  especially  in  the  con- 

gested parts  of  the  city,  with  sufficient  provision  for  larger  grounds 
for  open  games,  such  as  baseball  and  football.  • 

2.  Provision  for  high  school  athletics,  now  extremely  inadequate. 

3.  Public  baths  and  comfort  stations. 

4.  Development  of  the  school  Social  Centers,  in  which  the  School 
Board  have  already  made  such  an  admirable  beginning,  with  arrange- 
ments for  such  forms  of  recreation  as  the  people  in  each  school 
district  may  favor. 

5.  Development,  properly  supervised,  of  the  literary  drama  in 
the  schools,  not  only  as  substitutes  for  the  objectionable  shows  at 
theaters,  but  as  important  educational  and  recreational  elements  in 
the  life  of  young  and  older  people. 

6.  As  to  theaters,  your  Commission  would  recommend  positive 

censorship  of  plays  and  moving  pictures,  which  would  call  attention 
to  the  best  productions  given;  an  ordinance  against  the  employment 
of  girls  as  ushers;  another  providing  for  the_  proper  lighting  of 
moving  picture  theaters,  and  rigorous  supervision  of  picture  slot-  | 
machines.  j 

7.  As  to  dance-halls,  we  are  of  the  opinion  that  policemen  or  a [i 

woman  police  officer  stationed  at  the  entrance  might  have  a_  good  |i 
effect;  and  we  recommend  the  re-enactment  of  the  license  ordinance  fi 
of  1908.  with  defects  which  now  make  it  invalid,  _ removed — a matter  r 
which  should  have  the  attention  of  the  City  Council  at  once.  j 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


861 


8.  The  police  and  such  private  agencies  as  have  facilities  for  so 
doing,  are  urged  to  exercise  special  vigilance  to  keep  young  children 
off  the  down-town  streets  at  night,  and  to  reduce  to  a minimum  that 
objectionable  conduct  and  rowdyism  on  the  streets,  in  and  around 
candy  stores,  poolrooms,  at  entrances  of  theaters  and  in  the  parks, 
which  easily  grows  into  license. 

9.  Enforcement  of  ordinance  against  sale  of  indecent  and  sug- 
gestive postal  cards  and  printed  matter  generally,  and  against  hang- 
ing of  indecent  and  suggestive  posters  in  stores  and  on  billboards. 

C.  Better  Economic  Conditions. 

This  Commission  knowing  that  many  employers  are  deeply  in- 
terested in  the  welfare  of  those  who  serve  in  their  establishments, 
most  earnestly  urge  upon  them  the  following: 

1.  That  employers  generally  consider  the  wage  question  as  se- 
riously as  they  do,  for  example,  the  question  of  the  kind  of  machinery 
or  other  appliance  needed  in  their  establishments,  bearing  in  mind 
that  income,  particularly  in  the  case  of  young  girls,  has  an  important 
bearing  upon  the  whole  question  of  social  vice. 

2.  That  employers  maintain  the  best  possible  sanitary  conditions 
and  comfort  provisions  for  employes,  especially  where  many  young 
people  are  at  work;  on  the  theory  that  anything  which  endangers 
health,  lessens  stamina  and  power  of  resistance  to  evil. 

3.  That  in  every  establishment  where  at  least  twenty  young 
women  are  employed  a social  secretary  be  engaged  whose  duties 
would  be  to  mingle  with  the  girls,  understand  both  their  working 
and  personal  difficulties,  and  be  of  service  both  to  them  and  to  the 
employers.  Efficiency,  health  and  morals  would  be  promoted. 

4.  That  instead  of  young  boys  and  young  girls,  men  above 
twenty-one  years  of  age  be  employed  in  the  messenger  service. 

D.  Institutions  of  Prevention. 

1.  Travelers’  Aid. 

This  Commission  recommend  to  the  people  of  Minneapolis,  the 
support  and  the  provision  of  proper  housing  facilities  for  the  use 
of  the  Travelers’  Aid,  which  is  under  the  auspices  of  the  Y.  W.  C.  A. — 
a most  effective  organization  for  meeting  young  women  and  girls  as 
they  arrive  in  the  city  at  the  railway  station.  Four  very  capable 
women,  two  at  the  Milwaukee  station,  and  two  at  the  Union  Station, 
are  now  in  charge  of  this  commendable  work. 

2.  Detention  Home  for  Girls. 

This  Commission  would  recommend  to  the  proper  authorities  the 
careful  consideration  of  a Detention  Home  for  girls,  similar  to  that 
which  has  been  provided  for  boys — which  is  practically  a half-way 
station  between  probation  and  the  training-school. 

One  of  the  members  of  this  Commission  says:  “From  my  experi- 
ence covering  a period  of  five  years  I am  convinced  that  the  great 
need  today  in  carrying  on  successfully  our  Juvenile  Court  work  is  a 
place  where  we  can  send  girls  for  preservation,  not  reformation. 
There  are  many  girls  just  on  the  verge  of  immorality;  they  are  rapidly 
approaching  the  line  where  one  step  more  will  carry  them  across. 
Some  measures  were  taken  last  winter  towards  securing  such  a home 
as  I believe  we  need;  and  some  of  the  judges  are  of  the  same  opinion 
as  myself  regarding  this  project.  This  proposal  is  entirely  separate 
and  distinct  from  the  proposition  to  enlarge  the  Florence  Crittenton 
Home,  which  is  a rescue  home.  It  should  be  something  very  different 
and  permit  of  no  possibility  of  girls  of  different  classes  commingling. 
It  should  be  supported  by  the  city  or  county  under  the  supervision  of 
the  judges  of  the  Juvenile  Court,  as  the  Boys’  Farm  Home  (Deten- 
tion Home)  is  cared  for  at  the  present. 


862 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


VII.  RESCUE  AND  REFORM. 

While  your  Honor’s  Commission,  in  many  of  these  recommen- 
dations, have  laid  the  emphasis  upon  prevention,  they  would  not  ignore 
or  lightly  esteem  the  noble  institutions  that  gather  up  the  wreckage 
and  seek  to  repair  and  reform.  A great  work  is  being  done  by 
devoted  and  heroic  souls,  in  this  direction,  and  the  community  should 
understand  what  they  are  trying  to  accomplish  and  hold  up  their 
hands. 

The  hardened  women  who  fall  into  the  hands  of  the  law  as 
prostitutes  are  not  properly  provided  for.  Only  the  jails  and  work- 
houses  are  open  to  them,  and  to  these  they  can  be  committed  but  for 
brief  periods.  Such  treatment  is  not  corrective,  but  rather  the  re- 
verse. One  of  the  greatest  needs  of  the  State  is  an  institution 
where  dissolute  women  may  be  committed  under  an  indeterminate 
sentence  and  trained  by  reformatory  methods.  Such  an  institution 
would  greatly  increase  the  efficiency  of  the  police  and  courts,  as 
conservators  of  public  morals,  and  would  be  a most  important  factor 
in  solving  the  problem  of  prostitution. 

VIII.  PERMANENT  COMMISSION. 

Whether  the  various  recommendations  in  this  report  are  adopted 
or  not,  it  will  be  desirable  for  this  city  to  have  a permanent  Morals 
Commission,  which  should  be  a recognized  civic  organization,  whose 
immediate  function  shall  be  to  assist  in  carrying  out  the  policy  of 
suppressing  the  social  evil,  as  manifested  in  its  various  public  forms. 
The  proposed  Morals  Commission  should  be  well  equipped  with 
trustworthy  information  regarding  the  present  conditions  of  the  Social 
Evil  in  Minneapolis,  and  with  the  necessary  power  to  act  for  the 
best  interests  of  the  citizens  in  matters  of  public  morals.  The  pro- 
posed organization  should  be  empowered  to  receive  complaints  from 
citizens;  to  investigate  and  verify  such  complaints,  whenever  possi- 
ble, and  to  present  them  to  the  proper  citj'  officers  for  adjustment. 

We  suggest  that  such  commission  shall  be  composed  of  repre- 
sentative men  and  women  who  will  work  for  the  moral  welfare  of 
the  whole  city.  This  Commission  should  be  appointed  by  his  Honor, 
the  Mayor,  and  be  authorized  to  add  to  its  own  membership  and  to 
fill  vacancies  as  necessity  demands.  The  proposed  Commission  should 
have  the  fullest  co-operation  of  the  Mayor  and  his  Police  Department, 
and  be  furnished  with  sufficient  funds  to  carr3^  forward  its  work. 


PHILADELPHIA. 

The  Vice  Commission  of  Philadelphia  was  created  by  iMayor 
Rudolph  Blankeiiburg  on  May  31,  1912.  Report  submitted  on 
April  15,  1913.  William  Clarke  Mason  was  chairman;  Theodore 
J.  Lewis,  vice  chairman,  and  Roy  Smith  Wallace,  secretary  and 
treasurer.  Other  members  were  John  Hampton  Barnes,  Rabbi 
Henry  Berkotvitz,  Miss  Marj^  A.  Burnham,  Rev.  Joseph  W.  Cochran, 
Miss  Anna  F.  Davies,  Mrs.  Martha  P.  Falconer,  Rev.  George  H.  Fer- 
ris, Samuel  S.  Fleisher,  Horace  T.  Greenwood,  Mrs.  Edwin  C.  Grice. 
Dr.  Charles  D.  Hart,  Dr.  Charles  J.  Hatfield,  Charles  F.  Jenkins,  J. 
Percy  Keating,  Francis  A.  Lewis,  Rev.  Henry  L.  Phillips.  Rev.  James 
F.  Trainor  and  Dr.  Frances  C.  Van  Gasken.  George  J.  Kneeland  was 
the  director  of  the  investigation. 

The  Vice  Commission  of  Philadelphia  made  the  following  recom- 
mendations : 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


863 


SUMMARY  OF  IMPORTANT  RECOMMENDATIONS. 

1.  That  all  efforts  to  confine  prostitution  to  a given  district  be 
abandoned  and  that  the  statutes  be  persistently  enforced  uniformly 
throughout  the  city. 

2.  That  all  measures  for  the  suppression  of  prostitution  be  free 
from  spectacular  and  sensational  features. 

3.  That  prosecutions  for  the  suppression  of  prostitution  be  espe- 
cially directed  against  the  owners  of  the  houses,  madams,  and  pimps 
or  procurers. 

4.  That  carefully  planned  courses  in  sex  hygiene  and  pathology 
be  included  in  the  curricula  of  night  schools  for  adults,  high  schools, 
normal  schools,  and  colleges,  and  that  neighborhood  classes  be  formed 
liy  parents  for  the  study  of  these  subjects. 

5.  That  the  Department  of  Public  Health  and  Charities  take 

action  to  secure: 

Registration  of  venereal  diseases. 

Laboratory  facilities  for  diagnosis  of  venereal  diseases. 

Treatment  of  the  eyes  of  the  new-born. 

6.  That  the  Night  Court  be  permanently  established  and  that  a 

probation  officer  and  agent  of  the  Court  Aid  Committee  be  given 
legal  status  therein.  If  the  Municipal  Court  is  created,  provision 

should  be  made  by  it  for  such  court. 

7.  That  social  service  departments  be  established  in  stores,  manu- 
facturing establishments,  factories,  and  other  institutions  having  a 
large  number  of  employes. 

8.  That  women  be  appointed  to  police  duty. 

9.  That  women  be  appointed  on  the  boards  of  all  Institutions  to 

which  women  or  children  are  committed. 

' 10.  That  there  be  strict  supervision  of  places  of  amusement, 

i especially  those  frequented  by  minors. 

11.  That  there  be  strict  supervision  of  employment  agencies. 

I 12.  That  the  attention  of  the  Commissioners  of  Fairmount  Park 
be  called  to  the  use  of  the  park  for  immoral  purposes,  and  that  they 
be  urged  to  improve  the  lighting  and  policing  therein. 

II  13.  That  the  Legislature  enact  the  laws  introduced  at  the  re- 
■ quest  of  this  Commission  relating  to — 

Venereal  wards  in  general  hospitals  receiving  State  aid. 

Letting  and  keeping  houses  for  immoral  purposes. 

Street-walking  and  soliciting. 

Opium,  cocaine  and  narcotics. 

14.  That  the  Legislature  enact  the  act  now  before  it  establishing 

a State  reformatory  for  women.  That  it  raise  the  age  of  consent 

to  twenty-one  years,  that  it  make  provision  for  the  custodial  care 
of  feeble-minded  girls  and  women  during  the  child-bearing  period, 
that  it  enact  the  law  requiring  that  messenger  boys  be  excluded  from 
immoral  resorts,  and  that  relating  to  the  admission  of  minors  to 
places  of  amusement. 

I CONCLUSION — Our  unanimous  judgment  is  expressed  in  our 

I recommendations.  However  valuable  these  may  be,  the  work  done 
will  accomplish  little  of  permanent  good  unless  it  be  utilized  as  the 
foundation  for  a larger  and  more  constructive  effort  which  shall 
: develop  a strong  public  sentiment  manifested  and  made  effective 

I through  some  well  organized  volunteer  body  committed  to  persistent 

repression  of  vice,  in  pursuance  of  the  strict  letter  of  the  statutes 
I of  the  State. 

As  our  final  recommendation  we,  therefore,  urge  you  to  appoint 
' a permanent  Commission,  similar  to  the  Committee  of  Fourteen  of 
New  York,  which  shall  utilize  the  information  we  have  obtained  and 

ii  make  effective  our  recommendations,  extending  as  these  do  far  beyond 
I mere  police  problems. 


864 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Adequate  support  for  the  work  of  this  body  must  be  guaranteed 
for  not  less  than  five  years  by  those  who  believe  with  us  that  per- 
manent results  can  be  accomplished  alono-  the  lines  of  our  suggestions. 

With  such  assistance  your  administration  can  well  hope  to  rid 
the  city  of  the  commercial  side  of  this  evil.  You  can  drive  from 
their  lurking-places  the  pimp  and  panderer,  the  procurer  and  the 
financial  backer  of  the  system,  the  most  degraded  specimens  of  the 
human  species,  who,  without  even  the  pretext  of  passion,  for  the  mere 
sake  of  dollars  and  cents,  lure  the  weak  girl  to  destruction,  drain  her 
life-blood,  and  then  cast  her  off,  a burden  upon  the  communit3'. 
Through  education  and  protection  of  children  in  their  avocations 
and  recreations  you  can  minimize  the  effects  of  dangerous  influences 
impelling  them  toward  the  underworld. 


GRAND  RAPIDS. 

The  Public  Welfare  Commission  of  Grand  Rapids  was  ap- 
pointed by  Common  Council  to  investigate  “the  relation  of  wages 
to  the  social  evil.”  Report  presented  to  the  Common  Council  on  No- 
vember 10,  1913.  Printed  in  40-page  pamphlet,  copies  of  which  are 
probably  available  on  request  to  the  city  clerk  of  Grand  Rapids.  John 
Wygmans  was  chairman  of  the  Commission,  James  Hoogerhyde,  sec- 
retary, and  the  other  members  were  Rev.  Russell  Bready,  Rev.  ]\I.  J. 
Gallagher,  Dr.  J.  G.  Huizenga,  Dr.  C.  C.  Siemens,  Gerritt  Verburg  and 
Fred  Zierleyn. 

The  recommendations  of  the  Public  Welfare  Commission  of  Grand 
Rapids  follow : 

First — That  parents  do  their  duty,  that  they  do  not  e.xpect  the 
city,  the  church,  or  the  Sunday  School  teacher  to  raise  their  children 
for  them,  that  all  parents  know  where  their  children  are  nights,  and 
that  they  know  it  for  an  absolute  certaintj'. 

Second — That  instruction  be  provided  in  a wise  waj'  for  both 
boys  and  girls  as  to  the  awful  results  in  a phj'sical  waj^  of  the 
transgression  of  the  laws  of  nature. 

Third — That  every  woman  be  given  a living  wage,  and  that  the 
corporations  and  employers  paying  a wage  to  women,  known  to  be 
less  than  can  be  lived  upon  be  brought  under  the  ban  of  the  public 
by  exposure. 

Fourth — That  women  be  everA-where  used  to  the  use  of  ordi- 
nary clothes,  and  that  they  wear  plenty  of  them.  Immodest  dress 
is  a pitfall. 

Fifth — That  all  property  owners  be  held  responsible  for  the 
character  of  their  tenants.  That  when  the  commission  is  satisfied 
that  anjr  property  is  being  used  for  immoral  purposes,  that  a notice 
be  given  to  the  owner  of  the  propertj",  giving  said  owner  ten  days 
to  issue  a notice  to  the  tenant  to  move,  and  that  if  the  tenant  has  not 
moved  at  the  end  of  thirty  days,  that  the  exposure  and  prosecution 
of  the  owner  follow  by  placing  all  the  evidence  in  the  hands  of  the 
proper  authorities. 

LEGISLATION — Your  committee  recommends  the  establish- 
ment of  a board  of  commission  to  be  known  as  the  Public  \\  elfare 
Commission,  whose  duties  and  powers  should  include  the  following, 
viz. : 

(a)  The  investigation  of  the  moral,  social  and  industrial  con- 
ditions of  the  city  and  their  inter-relationship,  maintaining  a record 
and  reporting  the  same  to  the  Common  Council. 

(b)  The  supervision  and  controlling  of  the  housing  conditions, 
the  supervision  and  controlling  of  a free  legal  aid  bureau,  the  dance 
halls,  skating  rinks,  vaudettes,  moving  picture  and  other  theaters, 
etc.  Its  representatives  to  be  in  regular  attendance  at  the  courts  of 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


865 


the  city  and  county  and  to  co-operate  with  the  police  departments 
and  courts  to  prevent  as  far  as  possible  immorality  and  delinquency 
and  to  assist  in  reforming  and  restoring  those  who  have  fallen  and 
to  aid  in  securing  pardon  and  parole  for  the  deserving  ones. 

(c)  The  investigators  of  this  commission  to  be  clothed  with 
police  powers. 

(d)  The  appointment  of  such  clerical  help  and  investigators 
as  may  be  required  to  prosecute  the  work  of  this  commission  expe- 
ditiously and  thoroughly. 

Your  committee  further  recommends  that  this  commission  be 
composed  of  five  members  to  be  appointed  by  the  mayor  subject  to 
approval  of  the  Common  Council.  The  term  of  office  to  be  five 
years.  One  commissioner  to  be  appointed  annually  after  first  year. 
Removal  from  office  by  mayor  for  cause,  subject  to  appeal  to  the 
Common  Council. 

The  Council  to  annually  provide  a sufficient  sum  of  money  in 
the  budget  to  meet  the  expenses  of  the  commission. 

The  commission  to  meet  at  least  once  a week. 

The  commission  shall  receive  no  salary  except  that  a $5  per 
diem  per  member  may  be  charged  whenever  special  exigencies  re- 
quire sessions  during  the  daytime.  The  commission  shall  file  a 
monthly  report  with  the  Common  Council. 

We  recommend  the  passage  of  an  ordinance  to  supervise  and 
control  public  dancing  and  dance  halls.  This  ordinance  should  con- 
tain the  following  provisions: 

(a)  An  adequate  fee  to  be  deposited  with  the  Welfare  Com- 
mission toeether  with  the  application  for  each  public  dance. 

(b)  The  presence  of  a representative  of  the  permanent  Welfare 
Commission  to  be  established,  clothed  with  police  powers,  at  every 
such  public  dance. 

(c)  A definition  of  what  constitutes  a public  dance. 

(d)  No  dance  to  be  permitted  after  11:30  p.  m. 

(e)  No  person  under  18  years  of  age  shall  be  permitted  to 
attend  without  parent  or  guardian. 

(f)  The  absolute  prohibition  of  any  dances,  postures  or  atti- 
tudes of  person  of  a suggestive  nature  or  that  would  be  indecent 
if  allowed  anywhere  else  in  public. 

(g)  The  requiring  of  an  adequate  bond  from  the  proprietors 
or  managers  which  shall  be  made  payable  to  the  city  and  forfeited 
automatically  whenever  the  proprietors  or  managers  are  found  guilty 
of  violating  the  laws  of  the  state  or  ordinances  of  the  city  in  a court 
of  competent  jurisdiction.  Provided  that  where  an  occasional  public 
dance  is  given  by  a society  or  other  organization  the  commission 
shall  have  power  to  grant  such  permit  without  filing  of  bond. 

Second — We  recommend  the  passage  of  an  ordinance  to  license, 
supervise  and  control  the  exhibition  of  moving  oictures,  stereopticon 
views  or  other  views  and  pictures,  penny  arcades,  vaudeville,  opera 
houses,  theaters  and  playhouses.  This  ordinance  should  contain  the 
following  provisions: 

(a)  An  adequate  annual  license  fee. 

(b)  The  Welfare  Commission  or  its  representative  shall  pass 
upon  every  play,  scene,  or  picture  to  be  presented  in  the  theaters 
and  playhouses  of  the  city  and  none  shall  be  permitted  to  exhibit 
without  their  written  approval.  _ 

(c)  The  absolute  prohibition  of  any  dress,  dances,  postures  or 
attitudes  of  person  of  suggestive  nature  or  that  would  be  indecent 
if  permitted  elsewhere  in  public. 

We  recommend  an  amendment  to  the  ordinance  to  suppress 
immorality  and  prostitution.  This  amendment  should  contain  the 
following  provisions: 

(a)  Publicity — The  commission  shall  ascertain  the  location  and 
owners  of  every  property  within  the  city  used  for  immoral  purposes 
and  report  this  information  to  the  Common  Council  once  every  six 
months. 

The  following  amendments  are  designed  to  prevent  the  illegal 


866 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


sale  of  liquor  in  rooming  houses: 

(a)  The  possession  of  a Federal  Government  liquor  tax  receipt 
for  the  year,  without  a city  license  to  be  sufficient  evidence  of  the 
illegal  sale  of  such  liquors  and  conviction  of  the  person  or  persons. 

(b)  Your  committee  recommends  the  initiation  of  a movement 
for  the  passage  of  an  amendment  to  the  Federal  liquor  tax  law  as 
follows: 

The  United  States  Government  not  to  receive  any  moneys  for 
the  Federal  liquor  tax  from  any  person,  persons,  company  or  cor- 
porations until  said  persons  or  companies  shall  have  deposited  with 
the  municipalit  yor  township  in  which  said  applicant  desires  to  conduct 
character  for  said  person  signed  by  the  license  granting  body  of 
the  rnunicipality  or  township  in  which  said  applicant  desires  to  conduct 
his  liquor  business. 

(c)  Your  committee  recommends  the  strictest  possible  enforce- 
ment of  the  law  against  mashers,  hustlers,  street  walkers,  immoral 
persons  and  prostitutes  in  the  firm  belief  that  constant  repression 
and  eternal  vigilance  is  the  price  of  a clean  moral  social  state. 


PORTLAND. 

The  Portland  Vice  Commission  was  established  by  ordinance 
of  the  City  Council  in  September,  1911.  Final  report  presented 
to  the  Mayor  and  the  City  Council  of  Portland  in  January,  1913. 
Report  printed  in  book  of  216  pages,  exclusive  of  three-page  intro- 
duction. Copies  may  likely  be  procured  by  public  libraries  and 
legislators  on  application  to  city  clerk  of  Portland,  or  to  the  chair- 
man of  the  Commission,  Henry  Russell  Talbot,  by  whom  the  report 
was  most  creditably  written  and  in  whose  name  the  work  is  copy- 
righted. The  members  of  the  Commission  were  Henry  Russell  Talbot, 
L.  L.  Levings,  H.  J.  McDevitt,  W.  G.  MacLaren,  David  F.  Morrison, 
John  H.  Stevenson,  S.  A.  Brown,  H.  M.  Patton,  Delraer  H.  Trimble, 
Arthur  E.  Wood,  Millie  R.  Trumbull  and  William  S.  Biddle. 


The  recommendations  of  the  Portland  Vice  Commission  follow : 

MORAL  PRECAUTIONS. 

1.  An  ordinance  recommended  requiring  the  owners  of  property' 
“to  place  and  maintain  a plate  or  sign  giving  their  names  and  addresses, 
and  providing  for  the  placing  thereof  and  making  the  cost  a lien  upon 
the  property,  and  providing  a penalty.” 

2.  Licensing  and  stringent  inspection  by  the  city  of  all  lodging 
and  rooming  houses. 

3.  Injunction  and  abatement  act  recommended  for  passage  by 
State  Legislature. 

4.  Creation  of  morals  court  by  Legislature  recommended. 

5.  More  attention  by  city  authorities  to  juvenile  welfare. 

MEDICAL  PRECAUTIONS. 

The  Commission  has  considered  seriously  the  question  of  counsel- 
ing the  reportability  of  all  venereal  disease,  but  feels  that,  however 
desirable  and  inevitable  such  legislation  is,  the  time  is  not  ripe  at 
present. 

In  order  that  a sanitary  law  may  be  enforced  it  must  be  backed 
by  public  opinion,  and  this  can  be  brought  about  onlj'-  b5’-  a campaign 
of  education.  This  body,  therefore,  believes  that  the  first  and  most 
necessary  step  for  the  control  of  venereal  disease  is  a vigorous  cam- 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


867 


paign  of  education  which  will  teach  the  public  something  of  the 
prevalence  and  dangers  of  these  diseases  and  the  necessity  of  reporting 
the  same. 

The  Commission,  therefore,  desires  to  emphasize  the  importance 
of  education  concerning  proper  sex  relations,  their  violation  and  the 
consequences  thereof,  and  to  commend  the  work  in  this  field  already 
begun  by  the  Social  Hygiene  Association  of  Portland. 

In  the  meantime  and  as  a first  step  in  a constructive  policy  in 
this  matter,  the  Commission  recommends  the  enactment  of  law: 

Requiring  the  reporting  of  such  cases  of  venereal  disease  as  are 
encountered  in  dispensaries,  hospitals,  juvenile  and  municipal  courts, 
penal  institutions,  maternity  hospitals,  rescue  homes  and  all  places  of 
detention;  and 

Compelling  persons  so  reported  to  be  treated;  and 

The  establishment  of  special  clinics  under  the  Board  of  Health 
for  the  treatment  of  venereal  disease;  and 

The  maintenance  by  the  municipality  of  venereal  wards  in  one  of 
the  existing  hospitals,  if  such  arrangement  can  be  made,  until  the 
city  builds  a city  hospital;  and 

That  the  city  contribute  to  the  support  of  the  free  dispensary, 
especially  for  the  treatment  of  venereal  disease. 

INDUSTRIAL  PRECAUTIONS. 

1.  Inasmuch  as  the  findings  of  this  Commissions  respecting  low 
wages  prevailing  among  female  employes  of  the  stores,  factories  and 
other  places  of  employment  in  the  city  are  further  confirmed  by  the 
industrial  survey  of  the  Consumer’s  League  of  Oregon,  and  inasmuch 
as  low  wages  paid  to  working  girls  are  closely  associated  with  con- 
ditions of  vice,  as  is  revealed  in  this  report,  this  Commission  recom- 
mends that  the  Council  of  the  City  of  Portland  memorialize  the 
Legislative  Assembly  of  the  State  of  Oregon  on  behalf  of  the  enact- 
ment of  legislation  leading  toward  the  establishment  of  a minimum 
wage  for  women  workers  in  the  City  of  Portland  and  throughout  the 
State. 

2.  Inasmuch  as  instances  of  bad  sanitation  in  respect  to  toilets 
and  sinks  are  mentioned  in  this  report,  and  as  such  conditions  are 
dangerous  to  the  health  and  destructive  of  the  comfort  of  the  workers, 
this  Commission  recommends  that  the  Council  take  measures  to 
compel  the  local  health  board  to  do  its  full  duty  in  enforcing  the  law. 

Difficulties  involved  in  sanitarv  inspection,  as  well  as  in  all  mat- 
ters that  pertain  to  the  health  and  comfort  of  working  women,  could 
be  more  easily  overcome  if  the  State  Commissioner  of  Labor  has 
besides  his  present  male  denuties  one  or  two  women  who  could  more 
easily  understand  the  peculiar  hardships  that  are  involved,  and  could, 
therefore,  more  effectivelv  act  in  securing  the  enforcement  of  present 
laws.  Realizing  that  this  is  a matter  for  action  by  the  State  authorities, 
the  Commission  nevertheless  calls  the  attention  of  the  Council  to  it. 

3.  Because  the  long  strain  of  a ten-hour  dav  for  female  em- 
ploves  causes  undue  fatigue,  cuts  off  onnortunities  for  recreation 
and  leisure,  and  in  the  case  of  some  girls  weakens  the  power  of 
moral  resistance,  this  Commission  recommends  that  the  Council  take 
such  action  as  is  necessary  for  reducing  the  legal  limit  of  time  for 
the  employment  of  females  in  stores  and  factories  from  ten  to  eight 
hours  a day. 

Because  of  the  evils  associated  with  the  loiterino-  during  clos- 
ing hours  of  men  about  the  exits  of  stores  and  factories  where 
women  are  emnloyed.  this  Commission  recommends  to  the  rnavor 
of  this  city  that  he  instruct  the  chief  of  police  to  detail  officers  to 
correct  this  evil. 

.S.  Because  of  the  incomuetency  of  hundreds  of  girls  who  seek 
employment  in  the  industries  of  the  city,  and  of  the  lack  of  adequate 


868  ^Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


provision  for  industrial  education  and  for  the  vocational  guidance 
of  young  girls  in  the  public  schools  who  are  to  become  wage  earners, 
and  because  this  industrial  inefficiency  is  closely  associated  with  vice, 
as  is  shown  by  this  report,  this  Commission  earnestly  calls  the  atten- 
tion of  the  Council,  the  school  authorities  and  the  tax-paying  public 
to  this  gravest  of  problems,  with  the  suggestion  that  immediate 
action  by  the  proper  authorities  be  taken  in  the  direction  of  establishing 
additional  industrial  schools  and  of  introducing  into  present  schools 
more  work  that  is  related  to  the  future  industrial  life  of  the  children. 
Such  action  should  further  lead  to  the  introduction  into  the  schools 
of  vocational  directors,  who  shall  advise  children  in  relation  to  the 
opportunities  that  are  before  them  in  the  industrial  world. 

6.  Inasmuch  as  instances  are  shown  in  this  report  of  bad  housing 
conditions  in  this  city,  and  inasmuch  as  this  problem  of  housing, 
because  of  the  probable  rapid  growth  of  the  city,  is  one  immediately 
related  to  the  health  and  morals  of  the  community,  this  Commission 
recommends  that  the  Council  enact  an  ordinance  providing  for  the 
appointment  by  the  mayor  of  a housing  commission  for  the  study 
of  housing  conditions  in  the  city  on  the  basis  of  which  advanced 
and  protective  legislation  may  be  drawn. 

7.  Inasmuch  as  it  has  been  shown  by  the  investigations  of  this 
Commission  that  physical  fatigue  has  a marked  effect  on  the  moral 
power  of  resistance  of  working  women  and  girls  to  the  peculiar 
temptations  to  which  they  are  subjected,  the  Commission  therefore 
recommends  the  enactment  of  the  following  ordinance: 

An  ordinance  requiring  employers  to  provide  seats  for  the  use 
of  female  employes. 

The  City  of  Portland  does  ordain  as  follows: 

Section  1.  Every  employer  in  any  manufacturing,  mechanical  or 
mercantile  establishment,  store,  department  store,  laundry,  hotel  or 
restaurant,  or  other  establishment  employing  any  female  person  shall 
provide  a sufficient  number  of  suitable  seats  for  all  female  em- 
ployes, and  shall  permit  them  to  use  such  seats  when  such  employes 
are  not  engaged  in  the  active  duties  of  their  employment. 

Section  2.  Any  person  who  shall  fail,  neglect  or  refuse  to  do 
any  of  the  things  required  in  Section  1 of  this  ordinance,  or  who 
shall  permit  or  suffer  any  overseer,  superintendent  or  other  agent 
of  any  such  person  to  violate  or  evade  the  provisions  of  this  ordinance 
shall,  upon  conviction  thereof,  be  fined  for  each  offense  not  more 
than  five  hundred  dollars  ($500). 


MASSACHUSETTS. 

The  Massachusetts  White  Slave  Commission  was  created  by 
legislative  resolve  on  April  21,  1913.  Commission  consisting  of 
Walter  E.  Fernald,  Charles  W.  Birtwell,  Lucia  L.  Jaquith  and 
Edwin  Mulready,  appointed  by  the  Governor.  Appropriation  by 
state,  $10,000.  Report  presented  to  Senate  and  House  of  Representa- 
tives of  Massachusetts,  February  7,  1914.  Is  printed  in  pamphlet  of 
86  pages,  copies  of  which  probably  may  be  obtained  from  the  Secretary 
of  State  of  Massachusetts. 

The  recommendations  of  the  “Commission  for  the  Investigation  of 
the  White  Slave  Traffic,  So  Called.”  of  IMassachusetts  follow : 

1.  The  laws  for  the  suppression  of  “places  resorted  to  for  the 
purpose  of  prostitution”  should  provide  for  the  penalizing  of  the 
property  so  used. 

2.  The  many  immoral  hotels  where  commercialized  prostitution 
is  so  freely  and  grossly  practiced  should  be  regulated  and  controlled. 
Innholders’  licenses  should  be  granted  only  after  investigation  and 
continued  in  force  onlv  so  long  as  the  conditions  imposed  are  faith- 
fully observed.  Provision  should  be  made  for  inspection  of  condi- 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees  869 

tions.  A permanent  form  of  registration  of  every  guest,  subject  to 
verification,  should  be  required.  A record  of  every  assignment  of 
every  room  should  be  made.  This  provision  would  prevent  the  let- 
ting of  the  same  room,  as  at  present,  to  sometimes  a dozen  couples 
in  one  night.  This  register  should  be  open  to  the  inspection  of  the 
police  or  other  agents  of  the  law  at  all  times.  The  use  of  closed 
private  dining  rooms  in  hotels  by  men  and  women,  now  frequently 
resorted  to  for  immoral  purposes,  and  already  prohibited  by  the 
licensing  authorities  of  several  cities,  should  be  prohibited  throughout 
the  State,  in  general,  there  should  be  much  closer  co-operation  be- 
tween the  police  and  the  licensing  authorities.  The  licensing  authori- 
ties have  the  right  to  such  assistance  as  the  police  department  can 
furnish. 

3.  It  is  not  easy  to  understand  why  the  many  immoral  cafes 
and  saloons,  openly  and  impudently  used  nightly  and  almost  solely 
for  the  bargaining  places  of  prostitutes  and  their  customers,  are  al- 
lowed to  exist  in  every  city  of  any  size  in  the  State.  An  officer  of  the 
law  not  known  to  the  habitues  in  any  one  house  could  obtain  evidence 
which  would  justify  the  permanent  closing  of  any  one  of  these  places 
by  the  licensing  authorities.  The  separate  booths,  especially  with 
drawn  curtains,  in  cafes,  restaurants  and  saloons,  should  be  absolutely 
forbidden.  It  is  within  the  power  of  local  licensing  authorities  to 
remedy  this  evil.  There  should  be  some  definitely  constituted  State 
authority  charged  with  the  responsibility  of  securing  action  if  the 
local  authorities  are  inert. 

4.  The  widespread  and  undisturbed  use  of  lodging  houses  or 
rooming  houses  for  purposes  of  prostitution  in  the  State  can  be  met 
by  a long-needed  legal  regulation  and  control  of  these  necessary 
adjuncts  of  present-day  economic  conditions.  Such  regulation  could 
be  made  without  injury  to,  or  appreciable  interference  with,  the 
legitimate  business  of  letting  rooms;  indeed,  it  would  be  a protection 
and  a financial  benefit  to  properly  conducted  lodging  houses.  Every 
lodging  house  should  be  licensed  and  registered  for  a nominal  fee  or 
for  no  fee,  and  be  subject  to  supervision.  An  approved  permanent 
register  should  be  kept,  and  every  lodger  should  be  required  to  record 
his  proper  name  and  address.  The  police  authorities  should  be  re- 
quired to  investigate  and  report  upon  the  applicants  for  licenses  and 
the  conduct  of  such  establishments. 

5.  To  obviate  the  necessity  of  using  a search  warrant  for  the 
illegal  sale  of  liquor,  as  well  as  the  danger  of  information  of  the 
issuing  of  the  warrant  being  conveyed  to  the.  keepers  of  the  places-  ■ 
to  be  searched,  it  is  suggested  that  the  law  be  so  amended  as  to 
provide  for  the  granting  of  search  warrants  for  the  specific  purpose 
of  searching  places  suspected  of  being  resorted  to  for  purposes  of 
prostitution,  and  that  such  service  be  lawful  at  any  time  within  thirty 
days  of  the  date  of  issue.  Such  a warrant  would  cover  the  purpose 
for  which  it  is  actually  desired,  and  disclosure  of  its  existence  would 
be  of  less  benefit  to  the  keeper  of  a house  of  ill  fame;  for  while 
such  a person  could  afford  to  suspend  business  for  the  present  limited 
time  allowed  for  service,  suspension  would  not  be  so  practicable  for 
the  proposed  period  of  thirty  days. 

6.  Licenses  should  be  required  by  the  licensing  authorities 
for  all  public  dances.  The  expense  of  supervision,  preferably  by  a 
matron  chosen  by  the  licensing  authorities,  should  be  included  in  the 
license  fee. 

7.  The  prosecution  of  this  class  of  men  would  be  simplified  by 
adding  the  phrase  “or  shall  share  in  such  earnings,  proceeds  or 
moneys,”  after  the  phrase  “or  allowed,”  in  section  5,  chapter  424, 
Acts  of  1910. 

8.  Successful  prosecution  of  persons  charged  with  being  com- 
mon night  walkers,  male  or  female,  requires,  under  the  statute  and 
the  usual  court  procedure,  so  much  evidence  of  a positive  character 
that  innumerable  public  actions  tending  to  immorality  or  grievously 
offensive  to  respectable  persons,  especially  women,  are  outside  the 
present  scope  of  lawful  prevention  or  punishment.  A woman  may 


870 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


speak  _to_  men  in  the  street,  day  or  night,  and  even  solicit  them  to 
commit  immoral  acts,  without  affording  proof  of  the  violation  of  the 
present  law.  A man  may,  day  or  night,  salute,  accost  or  follow  a 
respectable  woman,  to  her  annoyance  or  alarm,  and  unless  he  uses 
obscene  or  profane  language,  as  he  seldom  does  in  such  cases,  he 
breaks  no  law.  Even  though  he  expose  himself  through  profanity  or 
obscenity,  he  still  escapes  unless  a policeman  is  on  the  spot  to  arrest 
him- — and  such  men  keep  careful  watch  for  the  police — and  unless  the 
respectable  woman  is  willing  to  appear  against  him,  and  in  open 
court  repeat  the  profanity  or  obscenity  which  was  addressed  to  her. 
The  frequency  with  which  such  offenses  are  committed  is  well  known, 
but  the  public,  which  looks  to  the  police  for  a remedy,  does  not  under- 
stand that  in  the  present  condition  of  the  law  neither  prevention  nor 
punishment  can  be  secured. 

9.  The  restriction  which  limits  to  “the  night-time”  arrests  with- 
out a warrant  for  offenses  enumerated  in  Revised  Laws,  chapter  212, 
section  46,  is  a relic  of  times  long  past,  when  practically  all  offenders 
were  known  personally  to  local  peace  officers.  To  be  unable  to  arrest 
without  a warrant  in  dealing  with  large  numbers  of  persons  who  are 
strangers,  who  refuse  to  give  their  names  and  addresses  or  give  those 
which  are  fictitious,  is  really  to  guarantee  immunity  for  offenses 
committed  by  such  persons.  Offenses  against  chastity  incident  to 
the  commercialized  aspects  of  prostitution  considered  in  detail  in  this 
report  are  especially  likely  to  be  committed  under  these  conditions. 
An  offense  committed  in  the  daytime  should  subject  the  offender  to 
the  same  conditions  of  apprehension  as  if  it  were  committed  at  night. 

10.  It  appears  to  the  commission  to  be  desirable  that  the  nol 
prossing  and  placing  on  file  of  prosecutions  for  offenses  against 
chastity  should  be  subject  to  the  same  provisions  of  law  that  have 
applied  since  1885  to  violations  of  the  provisions  of  law  relative  to 
intoxicating  liquors. 

11.  The  investigation  has  revealed  clearly  the  interest  of  each 
he  provided  for  as  feeble-minded  persons  or  as  defective  delinquents. 
The  present  laws  provide  for  such  commitment,  but  institution  pro- 
vision for  the  feeble-minded  is  inadequate,  and  for  the  defective  delin- 
quent entirely  lacking.  For  the  arrested  prostitute  who  is  rated 
as  of  normal  mentality,  the  present  law  provides  for  an  adequate  range 
of  treatment,  from  probation  to  imprisonment. 


WISCONSIN. 

The  Wisconsin  White  Slave  Commission  was  created  by  legis- 
lative enactment  in  May,  1913.  Committee  composed  of  three 
members  of  the  State  Senate — Senators  Howard  Teasdale  (chair- 
man), Victor  Linley  and  Robert  W.  Monk— -and  three  members 
of  the  lower  house — Assemblymen  George  W.  Bingham,  James 
Dolan  and  Carl  Minkley.  Appropriation,  $10,000.  Committee  per- 
fected organization  August  20,  1913,  and  presented  its  report  to  the 
Senate  and  Assembly  of  Wisconsin  on  November  2,  1914.  Report  is 
printed  in  a book  of  246  pages,  copies  of  which  may  probably  be  ob- 
tained from  the  Secretary  of  State  of  Wisconsin. 

The  recommendations  of  the  “Wisconsin  Legislative  Committee  to 
Investigate  the  White  Slave  Traffic  and  Kindred  Subjects”  follow: 

RELATING  TO  LAW  ENFORCEMENT. 

1.  That  a morals  court  be  established  in  cities  of  the  first  class, 
with  exclusive  jurisdiction  over  all  cases  involving  moral  offenses. 

2.  That  a law’  similar  to  the  Mann  Act  of  the  LTnited  States 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


871 


government,  applicable  between  cities,  villages  and  towns  of  this 
State,  be  enacted. 

3.  That  police  departments  be  required  to  keep,  file  and  index 
all  written  complaints  made  to  them,  with  a report  of  their  find- 
ings and  action  thereon,  such  complaints  to  be  open  to  the  inspec- 
tion of  the  complainant  and  to  all  law  enforcing  officers  of  the 
State. 

4.  That  a permanent  State  Police  Department  be  established 
in  this  State,  with  power  to  investigate  immoral  practices,  the  rea- 
sons for  non-enforcement  of  the  law  in  any  and  all  communities 
of  this  State,  and  power  to  enforce  the  law  in  case  the  local  law 
enforcing  officers  fail  to  do  so.  Such  department  should  be  au- 
thorized to  select  a competent  chief  executive  officer  and  a clerk, 
and  should  have  under  its  direction  and  control  for  the  service  of 
law  enforcing  officers  of  the  State  a limited  number  of  secret  service 
men,  who,  upon  request  of  local  law  enforcing  officers  or  the  chief 
officer  of  the  department,  should  be  required  to  investigate  and 
report  to  local  law  enforcing  officers  and  to  the  department  facts 
regarding  any  breach  of  the  moral  laws  or  laws  regulating  practices 
which  naturally  tend  to  immorality  in  any  community  of  the  State. 
Such  department  should  also  have  authority  to  enforce  such  laws 
in  any  and  all  cases  where  the  local  law  enforcing  officers  neglect 
or  refuse  to  do  so,  such  action  to  take  place  only  after  the  local 
law  enforcing  officers  have  been  informed  and  have  been  furnished 
evidence  of  such  breaches  of  the  moral  laws  or  laws  regulating 
practices  which  naturally  tend  to  immorality. 

5.  That  local  communities,  cities  and  towns,  organize  private 
associations  to  assist  officers  in  the  enforcement  of  such  laws. 

6.  That  in  the  trial  of  misdemeanors,  when  a jury  is  called  the 
verdict  of  five-sixths  of  the  members  of  such  jury  shall  be  sufficient 
to  convict  or  acquit. 

7.  That  provision  be  made  for  the  extradition  of  persons  charged 
with  bastardy,  as  in  criminal  offenses. 

RELATING  TO  SALOONS. 

1.  That  the  excise  laws  be  so  amended  as  to  prohibit  the  sale  of 
liquor  within  or  in  connection  with  any  hall  or  place  where  public 
dances  are  held  or  permitted  to  be  held. 

2.  That  the  application  and  license  for  the  sale  of  intoxicating 
liquors  be  required  to  state  the  floor,  lot  and  block  of  the  premises 
on  which  the  liquor  is  to  be  permitted  to  be  sold  under  the  license, 
and  restrict  such  sale  to  such  described  premises. 

3.  That  every  person  who  has  paid  a government  liquor  tax 
for  the  sale  of  liquor  be  required  also  to  obtain  a local  liquor 
license  before  being  permitted  to  dispense  alcoholic  drinks. 

4.  That  the  application  and  license  to  sell  infoxicating  liquors 

shall  provide  that  the  premises  where  such  liquors  are  sold,  in 
addition  to  the  front  entrance  or  entrances  shall  have  only  one  rear 
entrance  and  that  all  entrances  shall  open  onto  a street,  alley  or 
other  open  grounds;  and  that  all  screens  and  blinds  shall  at  all  times 
be  removed  from  such  entrances.  t 

5.  That  upon  a plea  of  guilty  or  upon  conviction  or  upon  nolle 
contendere,  for  violation  of  any  of  the  moral  laws  or  laws  regulating 
practices  which  naturally  tend  to  immorality,  the  judgment  of  a court 
shall  automatically  revoke  the  license  of  the  licensee,  when  a cer- 
tified copy  of  the  judgment  has  been  filed  with  the  licensing  body. 

6.  That  no  stalls,  family  entrances  or  private  wine  rooms  be 
permitted  in  any  saloon. 

7.  That  no  saloon  or  wine  room  or  cafe  having  a license  to  sell 
liquor  be  permitted  to  have  or  maintain  any  direct  connection  leading 
from  such  saloon,  wine  room  or  cafe  to  any  room  above  or  at  the 
side  or  in  the  rear  of  such  saloon,  wine  room  or  cafe,  and  that  such 


872  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

direct  connections  now  existing  be  immediately  and  permanently 
closed. 

RELATING  TO  DANCE  HALLS. 

1.  That  at  all  public  dance  halls  the  sale  or  other  dispensation 
of  any  liquor  by  any  person  be  absolutely  forbidden. 

2.  That  all  public  dance  halls  be  required  to  procure  licenses 
from  the  authorities  mentioned  in  section  1548,  Wisconsin  statutes, 
and  be  subject  to  the  rules  and  regulations  made  by  such  authorities. 

3.  That  dances  held  in  public  halls,  by  the  terms  of  such  licenses 
be  supervised  by  a police  woman  or  other  competent  officer. 

4.  That  the  pass  system  now  used  in  many  public  dance  halls  be 
forbidden  by  law.  The  use  of  a pass  permitting  persons  to  go  in  and 
out  of  the  dance  hall  without  paying  a second  entrance  fee  has  been 
found  by  the  Committee  to  facilitate  immoral  practices. 

RELATING  TO  HOTELS. 

1.  That  all  hotels,  rooming  houses  and  lodging  houses  be  re- 
quired to  secure  licenses  from  the  authorities  mentioned  in  section 
1548,  Wisconsin  statutes. 

2.  That  hotels,  rooming  houses  and  lodging  houses  be  required 
to  keep  permanent  registers  of  the  names  of  all  guests,  such  names 
to  be  signed  in  the  guest’s  own  handwriting  and  such  registers  to 
show  the  hour  of  assignment  to  rooms  and  the  hour  of  surrender 
of  rooms,  and  that  penalties  be  provided  against  persons  registering 
under  fictitious  names,  or  giving  false  addresses  in  registering. 

3.  That  each  hotel  and  rooming  or  lodging  house  be  required 
to  have  securely  and  permanently  posted  in  a conspicuous  place 
on  the  outer  front  entrance,  a metal  plate  bearing  the  name  of  the 
owner  of  such  building,  and  the  name  of  the  lessees,  if  any,  in  letters 
of  such  size  that  the  same  may  easily  be  read  from  the  street.  (The 
report  is  that  in  States  where  this  law  is  in  use  this  publicity  of  own- 
ership has  had  a very  beneficial  effect  in  cleaning  up  these  places.  It 
would  also  be  of  value  in  enforcing  the  injunction  and  abatement  law.) 


RELATING  TO  WOMEN. 

1.  That  every  state  or  county  institution  to  which  women  or 
children  are  or  may  be  committed,  except  jails  and  poor  houses, 
be  required  to  have  one  or  more  women  on  its  board  of  managers. 

2.  That  every  city  of  the  first,  second  or  third  class  appoint  and 
retain  one  or  more  police  women  for  the  protection  and  care  of 
women  and  children. 

3.  That  the  age  of  consent  be  raised  from  fourteen  years  in 
the  case  of  any  female  and  eighteen  years  in  the  case  of  a female 
of  previous  chaste  character,  to  eighteen  and  twenty-one  years,  re- 
spectively. 

4.  That  in  the  industrial  home  for  women  now  being  constructed, 
a ward  or  apartment  be  equipped  with  nroper  hospital  facilities  for 
the  treatment  of  venereal  and  other  diseases,  and  that  such  in- 
dustrial home  also  be  equipped  with  a psychological  laboratory  for 
the  studv  and  treatment  of  mental  disorders;  girls  and  wornen  con- 
victed of  immoral  practices  to  be  committed  to  such  industrial  home 
for  treatment  and  training. 

RELATING  TO  EDUCATION. 

1.  That  the  public  school  system  of  all  cities  of  the  first,  second 
and  third  classes  provide  special  classes  for  subnormal  'children, 
such  classes  to  have  in  charge  skilled  teachers,  w-ho  shall  give  the 


Recommendations  of  Other  Vice  Committees 


873 


specialized  instruction  and  training  calculated  to  secure  the  best  de- 
velopment of  such  subnormal  children. 

2.  In  order  to  make  compulsory  education  effective  the  Com- 
mittee recommends  that,  where  necessary,  free  textbooks,  meals  and 
clothing  be  furnished  to  needy  children. 

3.  In  order  that  adults  who  desire  to  fit  themselves  to  engage 
in  the  profession  of  teaching  may  acquire  that  knowledge  of  child 
life  which  should  be  possessed  by  every  teacher,  it  is  recommended 
that  the  principles  of  social  hygiene  be  taught  in  the  normal  schools, 
universities,  colleges  and  other  institutions  engaged  in  preparing  teach- 
ers for  their  life  work. 

GENERAL  RECOMMENDATIONS. 

The  Committee  recommends  that  social  neighborhood  centers  be 
developed  in  connection  with  our  school  system. 

The  Committee  recommends  that  municipalities  provide  properly 
supervised  amusements,  particularly  concerts,  moving  picture  shows, 
and  other  like  entertainments. 

The  Committee  recommends  that  employers  of  domestic  servants 
be  required  to  furnish  such  domestic  servants  with  a suitable  room 
in  which  to  receive  company. 

The  Committee  recommends  that  the  number  of  hours  of  labor 
for  domestic  servants  be  fixed  by  law. 

The  Committee  recommends  that  the  rights  of  the  laboring  class 
be  protected. 

The  Committee  recommends  adequate  insurance  against  poverty. 


PREVALENCE  OF 
THE  SOCIAL 
DISEASES 


Statistics  on  contagions  in  various  cities,  and  argu- 
ments for  certain  radical  medical  reforms. 


NOTE. — Senator  Beall  was  the  chairman  of  the  sub-committee 
on  diseases  incident  to  vice.  The  letter  herewith  printed  was 
written  on  his  request.  The  figures  given  in  the  accompanying 
tables  are  believed  by  the  sub-committee  to  be  as  nearly  accurate 
as  it  is  possible  to  arrive.  For  further  discussion  of  the  problem 
from  the  medical  viewpoint,  see  testimony  of  Dr.  William  G.  Wood- 
ward of  Washington,  D.  C.,  Session  XI,  p.  365,  and  Dr.  Eugene  Cohn, 
Asst.  Supt.,  Peoria  State  Hospital,  Session  X,  p.  326. 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


877 


Hon.  Edmond  Beall, 

Alton,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

At  last  I have  the  opportunity  and  take  pleasure  in  complying  with 
your  request  for  the  statistics  of  the  Venereal  diseases. 

These  statistics  I obtained  through  the  assistance  of  Dr.  O’Deon 
Bourque;  Dr.  G.  Frank  Lydston;  Dr.  Thomas  A.  Woodruff;  and  Dr. 
Rochester;  and  extracts  from  “John  Crerar  Library,”  viz:  “Morrow’s 
Social  Diseases  and  Marriage ;”  “Aschaffenburg  Crime  and  Its  Re- 
pression.” The  subject  is  far  too  lengthy  to  give  full  details  and  would 
involve  volumes  to  be  complete,  therefore,  I will  be  as  brief  as  possible 
in  giving  merely  the  essential  extracts. 


Statistics  of  Gonorrhoea  and  Syphillis. 

(Complied  by  O’Deon  Bourque,  M.  D.,  Chicago,  III.) 


Males 

GONORRHOEA 


Males 

SYPHILLIS 


80%  PARIS  30% 

80%  VIENNA  28% 

80%  LONDON  27% 

80%  NEW  YORK  25% 

80%  CHICAGO  20% 

70%  NEW  ORLEANS  15% 


(Sea-ports  show  an  increase  in  the  percentage,  as  compared  to  the 
population.) 

The  same  ratio  of  syphillis  to  gonorrhoea  exists  in  small  towns  but 
the  percentage  decreases  according  to  the  distance  from  large  cities. 

I know  a number  of  towns  which  are  about  150  miles  from  the 
nearest  large  city  with  a population  of  2,000  inhabitants,  in  which  no 
case  of  syphillis  is  known ; these,  of  course,  are  exceptions  rather  than 
rules. 

Race  Syphillis:  The  comparison  of  colored  to  Caucasian  is  two 
to  one. 

On  the  records  of  the  New  Orleans  Charity  Hospital,  the  increased 
percentage  of  syphillis  in  the  colored  race  raises  the  percentage  as 
shown  above. 

Both  of  these  diseases  are  practically  unknown  to  farmers  who 
remain  away  from  towns  and  cities. 

These  figures  are  based  upon  the  U.  S.  Marine  reports.  Hospital, 
Dispensary,  clinical  statistics  and  personal  experience  of  physicians 
who  have  made  these  diseases  a specialty. 

Important:  These  diseases  being  both  highly  infectious  and  con- 
tagious should  be  under  strict  state  control,  as  is  small-pox,  diphtheria, 
yellow-fever,  etc.  They  may  be  entirely  eliminated  and  with  their 
elimination  the  eugenic  question  will  be  solved. 


878  Report  of  the  Illhsi^is  Senate  Vice  Committee 

Social  Diseases  and  Marriage. 

(By  Prince  A.  Morrow,  A.  M.,  M.  D.J 

Of  all  the  problems  of  social  hygiene,  one  of  the  most  important, 
certainly  the  most  difficult  and  delicate,  is  that  of  the  prophylaxis  of  a 
class  of  diseases  which,  in  their  essential  nature,  are  most  intimately 
blended  with  the  sources  of  human  life.  Venereal  diseases  in  their 
mode  of  origin  and  pathological  effects  strike  at  the  very  root  of  na- 
ture’s^ process  for  the  perpetuation  of  the  race.  From  the  many  points 
at  which  they  touch  the  relations  between  the  sexes,  social  morality,  and 
the  welfare  of  society  they  are  pre-eminently  social  diseases. 

It  is  especially  in  the  legitimate  union  between  the  sexes  that  the 
prophylaxis  of  these  diseases  become  a social  and  sanitary  duty  of  the 
highest  interest  and  importance.  Their  introduction  into  marriage  in- 
volves consequences  which  affect  the  health  of  the  contracting  parties, 
the  lives  of  their  children,  and  the  peace,  honor,  and  happiness  of  the 
family. 

Within  the  past  two  decades  no  coccus  has  so  grown  in  significance 
and  pathogenetic  importance  as  the  coccus  of  Neisser.  Of  especial  in- 
terest in  connection  with  the  objects  of  this  study  is  the  important  role 
of  the  gonococcus  in  determining  serious  pelvic  diseases  in  women. 
Modern  science  has  taught  us  that  in  view  of  its  extensive  prevalence, 
its  conservation  of  virulence  after  apparent  cure,  and  its  tendency  to 
invade  the  uterus  and  annexial  organs,  with  results  often  dangerous 
to  life  and  destructive  to  the  reproductive  capacity  of  the  woman,  gon- 
orrhoea overshadows  syphillis  in  importance  as  a social  peril.  In  safe- 
guarding marriage  from  the  dangers  of  venereal  diseases  the  physician 
becomes  the  protector  of  the  wife  and  mother  and  the  preserver  of  fu- 
ture citizens  to  the  state. 

In  charge  of  this  responsible  duty  the  physician  will  find  himself 
confronted  with  numerous  difficulties.  The  situation  created  by  the 
introduction  of  venereal  diseases  in  marriage  are  many  and  compli- 
cated ; the  problems  presented  are  delicate,  perplexing,  and  difficult  of  j 
solution.  In  dealing  with  these  situations  there  is  required  not  only 
a thorough  knowledge  of  these  diseases  in  all  their  relations,  but  also 
a knowledge  of  human  nature,  a professional  sagacity  and  a “savoir- 
faire,”  which  are  not  taught  in  the  curriculum  of  our  medical  schools. 

The  amount  of  blindness  occurring  in  adults  from  syphillis  caused 
by  atrophy  of  the  optic  nerve  is  by  no  means  a negligible  quantity.  We 
read  in  “Revue  Generale  de  Pathologic  Interne,  July  5,  1902,”  among 
eighty  syphillitic  men  there  are  about  one-quarter  whose  nervous  or 
pupillary  system  is  adulterated  by  syphillis  or  parasyphillis.  The  socio- 
economic importance  of  this  one  factor,  entailing  a cost  for  the  mainte- 
nance of  the  blind  in  this  country  of  many  million  dollars  per  annum, 
is  not  to  be  overlooked.  The  number  of  blind  persons  as  given  in  the 
U.  S.  census  statistics  for  1890  is  50,411  persons  blind  in  both  eyes; 
27,983  males  and  22,428  females. 

Who  are  responsible  for  the  introduction  of  venereal  diseases  into 
marriage  and  the  consequent  wreckage  of  the  lives  of  innocent  wives 
and  children?  Not,  as  a rule,  the  practiced  libertine  or  the  confinned 
debauchee,  but,  for  the  most  part,  men  who  have  presented  a fair  ex- 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


879 


I 

.i  terior  of  regular  and  correct  living — often  the  men  of  good  business  and 
I social  position — not  infrequently  what  are  considered  the  “good 
H catches”  of  society — the  men  who,  indulging  in  what  they  regard  as 
I the  harmless  dissipation  of  “sowing  their  wild  oats,”  have  entrapped 
;!  the  gonococci,  or  the  germs  of  syphillis.  The  men  believing  them- 
1 selves  cured,  it  may  be,  sometimes  even  with  the  sanction  of  the  physi- 
I cian,  marry  innocent  women  and  implant  in  them  the  seed  of  disease 
I destined  to  bear  such  fearful  fruit. 

I Unfortunately,  in  many  cases,  it  is  the  unfaithful  husband  and 
, father  who  receive  the  poison  from  a prostitute  in  an  extra-conjugal 
|!  adventure,  carries  it  home  and  distributes  it  to  his  family. 
i;  What  are  the  results?  If  the  germs  of  syphillis  are  conveyed  to 
the  wife,  there  is  to  be  feared,  in  addition  to  the  individual  risks  she 

I is  compelled  to  suffer,  the  destructive  and  blighting  effect  of  the  disease 
upon  her  offspring.  Syphillis  is  a poison  by  whose  foul  infection  the 
normal  processes  of  nutrition  are  so  changed  and  vitiated  that  the  prod- 
uct of  conception  may  be  aborted  at  an  early  period,  or  brought  into 
the  world  before  its  time  a macerated  type — “all  stunted  and  black  as 
ink.”  Instead  of  the  rosy,  healthy,  well-formed  child,  there  may  sur- 
vive a puny,  frail  being,  feeble  in  body  and  mind,  an  object  of  disgust 
and  horror,  doomed,  if  not  to  early  death,  to  bear  through  life  the  stig- 
mata of  degeneration  and  disease.  In  the  case  of  gonococci  infection, 

I the  individual  risks  the  wife  is  made  to  incur  are  much  more  serious 
than  those  following  syphillis.  The  infection  may  invade  the  cavity 
of  the  uterus,  and  ascend  to  the  annexial  organs  causing  salpingitis, 
ovaritis,  peritonitis,  etc.,  destroying  her  conceptional  capacity  and  ren- 
j dering  her  irrevocably  sterile  to  say  nothing  of  the  resulting  dangers 
] to  life  and  the  frequent  necessity  of  surgical  operation  to  remove  her 
! tubes  and  ovaries. 

I The  “Report  of  the  committee  of  seven  on  the  prophylaxis  of  Vene- 
real Diseases  in  New  York  City  would  indicate  that  nearly  30  per  cent 
j of  all  venereal  infections  occurring  in  women  in  private  practice  in 
■ that  city  are  communicated  by  their  husbands.  Neoggerath  stated  that 
of  every  thousand  men  married  in  New  York,  eight  hundred  have  or 
have  had  gonorrhoea,  from  which  the  great  majority  of  the  wives  have 
been  infected.  Fournier’s  statistics  show  that  20  per  cent  of  all 
women  suffering  from  syphillis  have  been  conjugally  contaminated  and 
the  New  York  Hospitals’  statistics  show  thati  fully  70  per  cent  of  all 
women  who  came  there  for  treatment  were  respectable  married  women 
who  had  been  infected  by  their  husbands. 

Fatality  of  the  Offspring:  The  mortality  of  the  offspring  from 
maiital  infection  has  a special  interest  in  connection  with  the  influence 
of  venereal  diseases  as  a factor  of  depopulation.  It  is  claimed  that 
syphillis  is  responsible  for  42  per  cent  of  abortions  and  miscarriages, 
the  remaining  58  per  cent  embracing  all  causes  of  whatever  character, 
artificial  or  otherwise.  In  a general  way  it  may  be  said  that  syphillis 
poisons  the  fountain  of  life,  it  destroys  the  product  of  conception  or 
blights  its  normal  growth  and  development,  either  by  its  devitalizing 
action  upon  the  primordial  or  germinal  cells  or  by  the  influence  upon 
the  process  of  nutrition.  The  influence  of  syphillis  upon  the  offspring  is 
expressed  in  one  word — polymortality. 

Gonorrhoea  is  more  radical  and  effective  in  its  action;  it  renders 


880  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  i 

the  procreative  process  null  and  void  by  mechanical  occlusion  of  the  ' 
oviducts  or  by  disclosing  their  normal  relations,  and  by  thus  blocking  ' 
up  the  channds  of  communication  between  the  ovum  and  its  fecundat- 
ing element  the  spermatozoa,  it  prevents  germinative  contact.  In  other 
cases  the  culture  field  of  the  ovum  is  rendered  sterile  and  unproductive  ^ 
by  the  inflammatory  condition  and  vitiated  secretions  of  the  endo- 
metrium. An  analysis  of  the  statistics  taken  from  all  quarters  and 
irrespective  of  social  conditions  of  the  parents  show  that  when  both 
parents  are  infected  the  mortality  is  68  to  100.  In  private  practice  the 
mortality  is  60  to  100. 

In  public  hospitals  and  more  particularly  those  frequented  by  prosti- 
tutes, the  mortality  reaches  86  to  100.  It  is  well  to  know  that  the 
mortality  of  hereditary  syphillis  is  influenced  by  social  conditions,  by 
the  age  of  the  diathesis,  and  by  the  circumstance  whether  one  or  both 
parents  are  infected.  In  the  first  year  of  married  life  the  mortality 
reaches  its  maximum.  Fournier’s  personal  statistics  show  that  90 
women  infected  by  their  husbands  became  pregnant  in  the  first  year 
of  married  life,  which  he  termed  I’annee  terrible  from  the  point  of  view 
of  heredity;  50  of  the  pregnancies  terminate  by  abortion  or  the  ex- 
pulsion of  dead-born  infants,  38  in  the  birth  of  children  which  soon 
died,  2 in  the  birth  of  children  who  survived.  Fournier  gives  as  further 
series  of  statistics,  viz:  out  of  216  births,  183  deaths;  another  out  of 
157  births,  157  deaths — mortality  100  per  cent. 

The  modern  physician  is  not  simply  a healer  but  also  a sanatarian. 
The  later  office  is  higher  in  importance,  as  the  interest  of  the  many  are 
superior  to  those  of  the  individual.  The  sterilization  of  the  source  of 
contagion  by  treatment  constitutes  one  of  the  most  effective  means  of 
preserving  others  from  contagion.  What  has  been  termed  “prophy- 
laxis by  treatment”  is  the  surest  and  best  method  of  preventing  infec- 
tion in  married  life.  It  is  the  verdict  of  the  physician  in  deciding 
whether  a venereal  patient  may  or  may  not  marr}*,  and  when  such  mar- 
riage is  safe,  has  most  important  consequences,  as  it  involves  the  health 
and  existence  of  a family. 

In  the  case  of  gonorrhoea  the  risks  of  contagion  may  be  determined 
with  comparative  certainty  by  a bacteriological  examination  of  the 
urethral  secretion,  by  microscope,  if  gonococci  are  present  the  patient 
should  not  marry ; if  absent,  he  may. 

In  the  case  of  syphillis  we  have  to  determine  by  the  Wasserman 
blood  test,  if  the  Spirochaette  Pallida  be  present,  the  test  is  positive  and 
the  individual  should  not  marry;  if  the  test  is  negative,  he  may  marn,*. 

The  physician’s  role  is  not  of  a father  confessor  or  the  stern  judge 
of  another  man’s  morals.  When  a venereal  patient  comes  to  him  for 
advice  as  to  his  project  of  marriage,  he  is  not  to  look  upon  him  as  a 
worn-out  libertine  who,  having  exhausted  the  possibilities  of  sexual 
pleasure  in  licentious  living,  now  seeks  to  pollute  the  holy  temple  of 
matrimony  with  foul  disease ; nor  is  the  physician’s  role  that  of  the 
angel  with  flaming  sword  appointed  to  guard  the  gates.  In  most  cases 
the  young  man  who  comes  for  advice  as  to  the  propriet}-  of  his  marriage 
is  more  unfortunate  than  depraved,  more  ignorant  than  dissolute.  He 
is  often  the  victim  of  that  false  system  of  education  which  keeps  him 
ignorant  of  all  matters  relating  to  sexual  hygiene,  a victim  of  that  social 
system  which  surrounds  him  with  allurements  and  excitements  and 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases  881 

which  tempts  him  by  example  and  by  laxity  of  public  sentiment  into 
a pathway  beset  with  pitfalls  of  which  he  is  not  forewarned. 

His  disease  may  not  be  the  “merited  punishment”  for  a long  course 
of  licentious  living;  very  often  it  is  the  result,  not — “of  the  sin  that 
practice  burns  into  the  blood,”  but  of  the  first  false  step  that  brings 
remorse.  Such  persons  are  entitled  to  our  sympathies  and  considera- 
tion. 

What  is  termed  “the  medical  secret,”  which  is,  after  all  the  patient’s 
secret,  has  a most  important  relation  with  the  sanitary  duty  of  the 
physician  in  preventing  the  introduction  of  venereal  diseases  into  mar- 
riage. No  matter  what  theories  or  dogmas  have  divided  medical  men 
in  opinion  or  created  separate  sects  or  system  of  practice,  the  medical 
profession,  with  a remarkable  unanimity,  has  remained  faithful  to  this 
code  of  duty.  Physicians  may  violate  every  principle  of  right  and  de- 
cency toward  a fellow-practitioner,  may  disparage  and  belittle  his  rep- 
utation and  injure  his  practice — all  this  may  be  excused  or  condoned 
on  the  ground  of  professional  rivalry,  but  the  medical  secret  is  regarded 
as  sacred  and  inviolable. 

In  relation  to  venereal  diseases,  from  their  essentially  private  na- 
ture and,  especially  their  “shameful  character”  in  popular  estimation 
the  obligation  of  secrecy  takes  on  a more  rigorous  and  peremptory 
application. 

To  the  force  of  traditional  custom  the  law  has  also  added  its  weight 
of  authority  by  making  the  violations  of  the  professional  secret  a penal 
offense.  The  French  Penal  Code  (Art.  378)  decrees  that  physicians, 
surgeons,  and  all  other  persons,  the  depositaries,  by  their  state  or  pro- 
fession, of  secrets  which  have  been  confided  to  them,  who  outside  of 
cases  where  the  law  obliges  them  to  be  denunciators  shall  reveal  these 
secrets,  shall  be  punished  with  an  imprisonment  of  from  one  to  six 
months  and  a fine  of  from  one  to  five  hundred  francs.  In  this  coun- 
try the  law  imposes  professional  secrecy  by  a prohibitory  statute  against 
disclosing  any  information  acquired  on  attending  a patient  in  a profes- 
sional capacity,  but  this  mandate  is  not  enforced  by  attaching  a penal 
responsibility  to  its  violation.  (Article  834*  of  the  Code  of  Civil  Pro- 
cedure of  New  York,  reads  as  follows:  “A  person  duly  authorized  to 
practice  physic  or  surgery  shall  not  be  allowed  to  disclose  any  informa- 
tion acquired  in  attending  a patient  in  a professional  capacity,  and 
which  was  necessary  to  enable  him  to  act  in  that  capacity. 

“Infantile  Ophthalmia  can  and  must  be  wiped  out  of  every  civilized 
country.” 

Helen  Keller  says:  “The  problem  of  prevention  should  be  dealt 
with  frankly.  . . . The  time  for  hinting  at  unpleasant  truths  is 

past.  . . . The  facts  . . . are  often  revolting.  ’But  it  is  better 

that  our  sensibilities  should  be  shocked  than  that  we  should  be  ignorant 
of  facts  upon  which  rest  sicpht,  intelligence,  morals,  and  the  life  of  the 
children  of  men.” 

Let  us  . . . rend  the  thick  curtain  with  which  society  is  hiding 
its  eyes  from  unpleasant  but  needful  truths.” 


882  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

(By  A.  F.  MacCallan,  M.  B.,  F.  R.  C.  S.,  Chief  Inspector  of  Ophthal-  ! 
mic  Hospitals,  Public  Health  Department,  Cairo.) 

Societies  for  the  diffusion  of  a knowledge  of  ophthalmic  hygiene 
have,  in  European  countries  done  much  to  diminish  the  incidence  of 
ophthalmia  neonatorum.  Governments  have  assisted  in  the  suppression 
of  the  same  disease  by  insisting  on  a qualification  for  midwives  and 
compelling  them  to  call  in  a surgeon  when  the  condition  of  the  mother 
or  the  child  demands  it.  Segregation  of  those  infected  with  trachoma 
has  been  recommended  and  carried  out  in  some  cases,  though  never 
thoroughly.  The  possibility  of  segregation  depends  upon  the  com- 
munity being  a small  one,  and  on  there  being  only  a small  proportion 
of  people  infected  with  the  disease.  In  London,  children  infected  with 
trachoma  are  eliminated  from"  fhe  Poor  Law  Schools,  and  educated 
together  in  special  school  hospitals. 

Syphillis  is  responsible,  directly  or  indirectly,  for  much  blindness, 
but  its  terrors  have  been  greatly  reduced  since  the  discovery  of  “Sal-  i 
varsan;’’  and  with  compulsory  notification  and  treatment,  blindness 
from  this  cause  might  be  reduced  still  further. 


(By  Robert  L.  De  Normandie,  M.  D.,  Boston  Lying-in  Hospital;  As- 
sistant in  Obstetrics,  Harvard  Medical  School.) 

In  1889  the  Royal  Commission  on  the  Blind  estimated  that  there  | 
were  7,000  people  blind  from  ophthalmia  neonatorum,  representing  a i 
loss  to  England  of  £350,000  a year.  Edgar  says  that  in  New  York  state  i 
alone  there  are  more  than  600  cases  now  (1907)  hopelessly  blind,  while  ■ 
in  the  United  States  there  are  between  6,000  and  7,000.  In  Massa- 
chusetts, of  204  persons  who  became  blind  under  one  year  of  age,  169, 
or  82.8%,  became  blind  under  one  month.  These  figures  are  strongly 
suggestive  that  ophthalmia  neonatorum  was  the  cause,  but  it  is  not 
actually  known  to  be  so.  From  1902-1903  the  Massachusetts  Com- 
mission for  the  Blind  has  25  children  registered  known  to  be  blind  from 
ophthalmia  neonatorum.  “This  average  addition  of  four  blind  citizens 
per  year  to  the  population  of  Massachusetts  is  alone  enough  to  necessi- 
tate a Kindergarten  for  the  Blind.”  At  the  Boston  Nurseiy-  for  the 
Blind  Babies  in  1907-08  there  were  24  babies,  and  14  of  them  became 
blind  from  ophthalmia  neonatorum. 

The  Massachusetts  figures  show  only  the  “totally”  blind  that  have 
“lived  long  enough”  to  come  to  the  Commission’s  notice.  There  is  no 
doubt  but  that  these  cases  and  more  have  occurred,  but  have  died  in 
early  infancy.  The  report  of  the  social  work  at  the  Eye  and  Ear  In- 
firmary show  this  to  be  true,  for  of  18  cases  admitted  totally  or  partially 
blind  to  the  hospital  and  since  looked  up,  6 totally  blind  patients  are 
known  to  have  died.  The  mortality  in  these  cases  is,  therefore,  also 
a problem  to  be  reckoned  with.  It  is  a serious  thing  to  take  a new- 
born baby  from  the  breast  and  send  it  away,  even  to  a ^yell-regulated 
hospital.  One  must  not  always  blame  the  parents  for  being  unwilling 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


883 


to  let  the  child  be  taken.  The  ideal  way  is  to  have  the  mother  also 
sent  to  the  hospital  while  the  baby  is  under  treatment.  In  this  respect 
Liverpool  stands  far  ahead  of  us,  for  there  at  St.  Paul’s  Hospital  a 
small  ward  has  been  given  up  to  those  cases,  and  when  a baby  is  taken 
because  of  an  ophthalmia  the  board  of  health  sends  an  ambulance  and 
brings  in  the  mother. 

The  American  Medical  Association  must  be  helped  in  every  possi- 
ble way  in  its  fight  against  this  disease.  It  suggests  that  a statute  such 
as  the  Howe  Law  must  be  enacted  in  every  state;  that  a campaign  in 
every  state  must  be  begun.  In  this  must  be  included  not  only  the  laity, 
but  also  that  small  class  of  poorly  trained  physicians  in  whose  practice 
the  greatest  number  of  neglected  cases  occur.  It  suggests  that  the  State 
Board  prepare  for  free  distribution  a proper  prophylaxis,  and  finally 
that  there  be  a concerted  organized  effort  to  prevent  this  disease 
throughout  the  Union.  Is  it  too  much  to  ask  that  wards  be  provided 
where  the  mother  of  these  nursing  babies  can  be  admitted  as  well  as 
the  infants? 


“Aschaffenburg  Crime  and  Its  Repression,”  gives  the  following 
statistics,  which  no  doubt  might  be  of  some  interest  to  you.  Some 
crimes  show  a striking  dependence  on  the  season.  Differences  in  their 
frequency  in  summer  and  in  winter  are  noticeable  in  all  countries  hence 
it  is  not  surprising  that  this  phenomenon  has  long  been  the  subject  of 
special  attention. 

Sexual  Crime  in  relation  to  season  in  France,  1827-1869: 


TABLE  I. 


Months 

Sexual  Crime  in  Prance,  1827-1869 

Days  of  Conception. 
1863-1871 

On  Adults 

On  Children 

Absolute 

Numbers 

Percentage 

(%) 

Absolute 

Numbers 

Percentage 

(%) 

Absolute 

Numbers 

Percentage 

(%) 

January .... 

584 

7.09 

1106 

5.57 

2603 

7.84 

February . . . 

563 

6.84 

1041 

5.24 

2661 

8.02 

March 

643 

7.82 

1366 

6.88 

2608 

7.85 

April 

608 

7.39 

1700 

8.56 

2887 

8.69 

May 

904 

10.98 

2175 

10.95 

3060 

9.21 

June 

1043 

12.67 

2585 

13.03 

3018 

9.08 

July 

860 

10.45 

2459 

12.42 

2911 

8.76 

August 

794 

9.64 

2208 

11.13 

2742 

8.25 

September . . 

653 

7.93 

1773 

8.93 

2810 

8.46 

October 

532 

6.46 

1447 

7.29 

2625 

7.91 

November . . 

514 

6.24 

983 

4.95 

2620 

7.89 

December. . . 

534 

6.49 

939 

5.05 

2665 

8.02 

TTnVnown.  . 

1421 

16160 

The  Criminality  of  Germany,  according  to  the  number  and  month 
when  crimes  are  committed. 

If  there  are  100  offenses  per  day  in  the  year,  there  are  per  day  in 
the  month : 


884 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
TABLE  II. 


Kinds  of  Crimes 
and 

Offenses 

January 

February 

March 

April 

May 

June 

August 

September 

October 

November 

1 December  | 

Crimes  and  offenses  against  natural 
laws 

95 

97 

90 

92 

99 

103 

105 

109 

105 

103 

103 

98 

Resisting  offenses 

89 

94 

89 

94 

97 

104 

109 

117 

112 

104 

99 

96 

Breach  of  the  peace 

94 

99 

96 

100 

98 

101 

105 

110 

106 

102 

100 

89 

Rape 

64 

66 

78 

103 

128 

144 

149 

130 

108 

90 

68 

69 

Obscene  acts,  distribution  of  obscene 
literature 

62 

74 

83 

101 

103 

150 

141 

133 

109 

84 

69 

64 

Insults  (“Beleideging”) 

83 

89 

85 

93 

108 

115 

120 

122 

113 

99 

93 

80 

Infanticide 

89 

127 

127 

121 

118 

102 

95 

80 

91 

86 

82 

87 

Simple  assault  and  battery 

76 

80 

79 

95 

108 

116 

124 

134 

121 

102 

88 

74 

Aggravated  assault  and  battery .... 

75 

78 

78 

95 

108 

113 

118 

113 

124 

106 

93 

78 

Crimes  against  property 

109 

108 

96 

90 

93 

93 

92 

93 

93 

104 

113 

117 

Petit  larceny,  also  when  repeated.  . 

113 

115 

98 

85 

87 

88 

88 

92 

92 

106 

117 

121 

Grand  larceny,  also  when  repeated. . 

102 

107 

92 

89 

94 

98 

98 

94 

96 

106 

112 

111 

Embezzlement 

100 

97 

94 

94 

98 

100 

103 

101 

98 

104 

105 

108 

Fraud,  also  when  repeated 

112 

109 

95 

88 

92 

92 

92 

93 

98 

88 

102 

121 

Malicious  mischief 

88 

92 

98 

108 

109 

106 

104 

104 

103 

101 

99 

88 

Distribution  of  the  conception  in  different  months  in  Germany,  \ 
1872-1883. 

If  the  average  number  of  cases  in  the  year  is  100,  the  number  per  • 
day  in  the  different  month  is : 


TABLE  III. 


Months 

Illegitimate 

Births 

Births  Including 
StiU-bom 

January 

91 

100 

February 

95 

99 

March 

103 

99 

April 

110 

103 

May 

116 

106 

June 

109 

104 

July 

104 

100 

August 

100 

97 

September 

95 

95 

October 

91 

95 

November 

88 

98 

December 

100 

105 

The  increase  in  sexual  crimes  begins  in  Germany  in  March,  just  as 
it  does  in  France;  the  maximum  is  reached  in  July,  after  which  the 
number  quickly  decreases ; a very  similar  curve  is  shown  b)'  “obscene 
acts,”  except  that  in  this  case  the  maximum  is  reached  in  June.  The 
fluctuations  are  tremendous;  July  exceeds  the  winter  months  b)-  more 
than  double  the  number  of  sexual  crimes. 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


885 


TABLE  IV. 


Months 

France 

1866-1879 

Italy 

1883-1888 

Prussia 

1876-78-80-82-85-89 

Medium 

Temper- 

ature 

Suicide 
Monthly 
to  1000 
Annual 
Suicide 

Medium 

Temperature 

Suicide 
Monthly 
to  1000 
Annual 
Suicide 

[Medium 

Temper- 

ature 

1848- 

1877 

Suicide 
Monthly 
to  1000 
Annual 
Suicide 

Rome 

Naples 

January. . . 

2.4° 

68 

6.8° 

8.4° 

69 

0.28° 

61 

February. . 

4.0° 

80 

8.2° 

9.3° 

80 

0.73° 

67 

March .... 

6.4° 

86 

10.4° 

10.7° 

81 

2.74° 

78 

April 

10.1° 

102 

13.5° 

14.0° 

98 

6.79° 

99 

May 

14.2° 

105 

18.0° 

17.9° 

103 

10.47° 

104 

June 

17.0° 

107 

21.9° 

21.5° 

105 

14.05° 

105 

July 

18.9° 

100 

24.9° 

24.3° 

102 

15.22° 

99 

August. . . . 

18.5° 

82 

24.3° 

24.2° 

93 

14.60° 

90 

September 

15.7° 

74 

21.2° 

21.5° 

73 

11.60° 

83 

October.  . . 

11.3° 

70 

16.3° 

17.1° 

65 

7.79° 

78 

November 

6.5° 

66 

10.9° 

12.2° 

63 

2.93° 

70 

December . 

3.7° 

61 

7.9° 

9.5° 

61 

0.60° 

61 

Suicide  and  Temperature. 

The  question  now  arises,  how  to  eradicate  this  evil ; to  attempt  en- 
tire eradication  of  evil  is  an  impossibility,  but  there  are  certainly  ways 
and  means  to  limitate  immorality,  venereal  diseases,  perversion,  and 
insanity — First,  by  education ; second,  prophylaxis ; third,  sterilization ; 
and  fourth,  segregation. 

In  mediaeval  times  efforts  were  made  to  crush  out  the  evil  by 
force.  Largely  under  the  influence  of  ecclesiastical  counsel  the  most 
severe  and  drastic  measures,  carried  out  under  the  most  despotic  au- 
thority^— almost  every  conceivable  punishment — were  employed  in  vain. 
The  experience  of  centuries  has  shown  that  prostitution  cannot  be 
annihilated  by  force.  In  the  existing  economic  and  moral  conditions  of 
society  it  is  a necessary,  evil,  not  in  the  sense  of  being  indispensable, 
but  inevitable,  and  the  only  relief  lies  in  the  correction  of  the  condi- 
tion of  which  it  is  the  outgrowth.  Public  sentiment  in  this  country  has 
always  been  extremely  sensitive  to  anything  like  legal  recognition  or 
sanction  of  prostitution  as  a status,  and  it  is  difficult  to  draw  the  divid- 
ing line  between  toleration  and  authorization.  In  fact,  it  is  not  possible 
to  regulate  by  state  control  a status  or  trade  without  license  of  that 
trade  under  specified  conditions. 

It  is  but  just  to  say  that  while  the  system  of  reglementation  has  for 
its  most  essential  features  the  registration  and  medical  surveillance  of 
all  engaged  in  prostitution  who  could  be  brought  under  its  control,  it 
endeavors  to  prevent  the  entrance  of  young  women  into  this  life  by 
refusing  the  registration  of  minors,  unless  hopelessly  irreclaimable,  and 
providing  reformatories  and  other  means  for  the  rescue  and  restoration 
to  honorable  life  of  fallen  women  who  wish  to  reform. 

In  1872  a law  drawn  upon  the  lines  of  the  continental  system  of 
regulation  was  enacted  by  the  Missouri  Legislature.  It  was  in  opera- 
tion only  a brief  period  (about  one  year),  when  the  law  was  swept 


886  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

from  the  statute  books  by  an  avalanche  of  protests  coming  chiefly  from 
the  clergy  and  the  -women  of  the  state.  The  incidents  attending  the 
repeal  of  the  statute  were  quite  spectacular.  A petition  praying  for 
the  repeal  of  the  obnoxious  law,  signed  by  more  than  a hundred  thou- 
sand good  people,  was  presented.  The  document  was  cumbersome.  A 
wheelbarrow  decorated  with  white  ribbons  and  accompanied  by  a 
group  of  young  girls  attired  in  spotless  white  gowns  was  used,  and  on 
it  the  gigantic  and  emphatic  protest  against  the  licensing  of  vice  was 
rolled  up  to  the  clerk’s  desk  to  be  read.  The  counterpetitions,  the  most 
conspicuous  signers  of  which  were  members  of  the  medical  profession, 
were  entirely  overwhelmed. 


(The  following  are  quotations  of  Dr.  G.  Frank  Lydston:) 

Prostitution  is  a condition,  not  a theory.  It  is  an  unavoidable  dis- 
ease of  society  under  present  social  and  economic  conditions.  That  it  is 
a “necessary  evil”  when  reduced  to  its  ultimate  is  open  to  question,  un- 
der the  old  patriarchal  system  it  was  probably  limited  in  its  scope,  from 
the  standpoint  of  professional  prostitution.  The  clandestine  prostitu- 
tion, or  some  form  of  illegitimate  sexual  relations,  existed  under  the 
old  regime  is  unquestionable.  The  less  wealthy  males  probably  did  not 
supinely  submit  to  the  monopoly  of  the  females  by  their  more  fortunate 
brethren.  It  is  also  probable  that  the  monogamous  custom  finally 
evolved  by  highly  developed  social  systems  has  increased  the  propor- 
tion of  prostitutes. 

The  fact  that  no  advanced  social  system  can  or  will  tolerate  polyg- 
amy, and  that  the  evolution  of  monogamy  has,  in  general,  made  for 
the  betterment  of  society  do  not  disprove  this  assumption. 

No  discussion  of  sexual  vice  and  crime  is  even  approximately  com-  ; 
plete  that  does  not  comprise  the  various  phases  of  sexual  psychopathy.  ( 
Sexual  perversion  and  the  varying  forms  of  disease  characterized  by  j 
aberration  of  erotic  impulse  are  the  greatest  importance  in  their  crim-  | 
inologic,  social  and  medico-legal  aspects.  Sexual  perversion  and  in-  j 
version  have  until  recently  been  studied  solely  from  a moral  stand-  ) 
point,  and  their  unfortunate  victims  have  often  been  unjustly  viewed  ; 
as  moral-perverts  instead  of  sufferers  from  a physical  and,  incidentally  t 
a mental  defect — or,  in  brief  from  psycho-sexual  aberration.  The  at-  i 
tention  of  scientific  physicians  has  recently  been  directed,  to  the  sub-  I 
ject,  and  some  very  startling  facts  have  been  developed.  The  physical  : 
explanation  of  the  degradation  of  many  of  these  poor  unfortunates 
should  be  far  less  humiliating  to  the  social  optimist  than  theoiy’^  or  wil- 
ful viciousness  could  possibly  be.  Even  for  the  moralist  there  should 
be  much  consolation  in  the  fact  that  a large  class  of  sexual  perv’erts 
is  physically  abnormal  rather  than  morally  leprous.  It  is,  of  course, 
often  difficult  to  draw  the  line  of  demarcation  between  psycho-physical 
and  moral  perversion.  Indeed,  the  one  is  often  so  dependent  on  the 
other  than  it  is  doubtful  whether  it  were  wise  to  attempt  the  distinction 
in  many  instances.  But  this  does  not  alter  the  fact  that  the  true  sex- 
ual pervert  or  invert  is  generally  a physical  aberration — “a  lusus  na- 
turae.” 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


887 


I What'  are  the  Methods  of  Prevention  and  Amelioration  of  Prostitution, 

Vice  and  Crime? 

The  immediate  suppression  of  prostitution  under  present  conditions 
would  probably  result  in  social  disaster.  Taking  prostitution  as  it 
really  is,  it  is  a protection  of  the  home.  The  debauchery  of  the  de- 
generate is  in  a sense  the  salvation  of  the  virtuous.  The  debauchery 
I of  one  woman — already  past  hope  of  redemption— may  protect  the 
person  of  a large  number  of  her  more  fortunate  sisters.  This  may  be 
considered  a very  unsentimental  way  of  expressing  the  situation,  but 
I am  discussing  actual  conditions,  evil  though  they  are,  and  am  bound 
to  present  what  I believe  to  be  true  facts.  If  there  is  a soul  of  good 
in  things  evil,  let  us  know  it  by  all  means.  The  remedy  lies  not  in 
suppression,  but  in  mitigating  the  effects  of  prostitution  in  the  first 
instance,  and  secondly,  in  correcting,  so  far  as  possible,  the  casual 
conditions  underlying  it.  Prevention  of  prostitution  is  the  key-note 
of  its  management.  The  first  essential  is,  in  my  estimation  the  educa- 
tion of  youth  by  giving  it  sound  ideas  of  sexual  physiology  correcting 
vicious  notions  derived  from  depraved  men  and  women,  imparting  a 
j knowledge  of  the  horrors  of  venereal  diseases,  and  cultivating  a health- 
I ful  selfishness.  As  matters  stand  at  present,  the  growing  lad  comes 
to  regard  sexual  purity  in  the  male  as  something  to  be  ashamed  of,  and 
female  virtue  as  extremely  out  of  fashion.  The  city  youth,  especially, 
is  not  likely  to  boast  of  virtue  that  causes  him  to  lose  caste  among  his 
fellows.  Example,  evil  teaching,  pernicious  literature,  the  stage,  and 
physiological  promptings  incline  him  to  accept  the  fatuous  notion  that 
sexual  indulgence,  in  season  and  out  of  season,  legitimately  or  illegiti- 
mately, is  a necessary  factor  in  the  life  of  the  male.  That  it  is  a “sine 
qua  non”  to  manliness,  he  verily  believes.  Boys  should  be  disabused 
I of  the  idea  that  man’s  life  revolves  around  his  sexual  organs,  and  should 
, be  taught  that  the  creative  principle  has  a higher  aim  than  personal 
;;  gratification.  Above  all,  they  should  be  taught  that  sexual  passion 
is  not  only  susceptible  to  control,  but  that  the  man  who  can  not  Control 
it  is  far  from  the  physical  ideal.  Youths  should  early  be  taught  that 
to  control  one’s  appetite  makes  a man  a king  among  men,  but  that  al- 
lowing one’s  appetite  to  control  him  makes  him  a slave,  who  can  never 
enter  his  birthright.  The  lad’s  selfishness  should  be  appealed  to.  He 
should  be  taught  that  physical  perfection  and  early  sexual  indulgence 
are  incompatible.  The  fallacy  that  sexual  indulgence  is  necessary  to 
good  health  should  be  dispelled. 

Venereal  prophylaxis  should  be  known  for  the  prevention  of  vene- 
real diseases  by  the  use  of  antiseptic  and  other  measures.  Licensing  of 
prostitution,  or  any  recognition  of  it  as  an  institution,  I believe  to  be 
absolutely  inimical  to  the  welfare  of  society.  The  campaign  against 
the  social  evil  should  be  conducted  along  medical,  educational,  moral, 
and  philanthropic  lines,  absolutely  divorced  from  legal  and  political 
: measures  of  coercion,  save  in  so  far  as  the  social  evil  may  be  a factor 
in  crime  or  social  disorder,  or  may  obnoxiously  parade  itself  before  the 
public  eye. 

As  an  outline  of  a practical  policy  dealing  with  the  subject,  the  fol- 
i;  lowing  is  submitted : 

' 1.  Strenuous  efforts  should  be  made  to  prevent  tenement-house 


888  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

overcrowding,  which  is  a prolific  source  of  immorality,  and  to  provide 
better  home  environment  for  the  poor. 

2.  The  establishment  by  public  or  private  enterprises  of  pure  and 
elevating  forms  of  amusements  as  a substitute  for  low-class  dance  halls, 
music  halls,  and  theatres,  which  serve  to  stimulate  sensuality  and  de- 
base taste. 

3.  The  amelioration  of  those  conditions  of  the  wage-earning  class 
which  tend  to  produce  immorality  through  sheer  physical  want. 

4.  The  establishment  of  institutions  for  the  treatment  of  venereal 
diseases. 

5.  The  stern  repression  of  all  public  manifestation  of  prostitution 
about  our  homes,  better,  still,  segregation. 

6.  The  creation  of  a special  body  of  “morals  police”  to  whom 
should  be  intrusted  all  the  duties  entailed  by  the  adoption  of  the  fore- 
going recommendations. 


Is  Sterilization  Destined  to  Be  a Social  Menace? 

(By  G.  Frank  Lydston,  M.  D.,  Chicago,  III.) 

It  is  hardly  necessary  for  me  to  state  that  I am  thoroughly  in  sym- 
pathy with  the  employment  of  sterilization  in  social  therapeutics.  I 
was  one  of  the  pioneers  in  promulgating  the  theory  and  practice  of 
sterilization  of  the  socially  unfit  and  have  had  no  occasion  of  harm. 
This  is  quite  as  true  in  social  therapeutics  as  in  the  ordinary  kind.  It 
is  the  purpose  of  this  brief  paper  to  discuss  some  of  the  possible  evils 
of  sterilization. 

Sterilization  a Possible  Menace  to  the  State.  The  laity  is  already 
becoming  familiar  with  the  technique,  safety,  and  effects  of  steriliza- 
tion upon  the  sexual  function,  and  is  aware  that  infertility,  not  impo- 
tency,  results  from  it.  The  consequence  is  that  more  often  than  the  pro- 
fession at  large  is  aware,  laymen  are  appealing  to  the  surgeon  for  steril- 
ization as  a means  of  evading  the  responsibility  of  the  procreation  of 
children.  That  the  surgeon  will  in  future  still  oftener  be  appealed  to 
is  inevitable.  The  assumption  of  the  responsibility  of  procreating  and 
rearing  children  demands  a certain  degree  of  self-abnegation  and  self- 
sacrifice  which  many  of  both  sexes  avoid.  The  fact  that  sterilization 
in  either  sex  does  not  impair  sexual  power  is  likely  to  appeal  ver}' 
strongly  to  the  average  man. 

The  desire  to  avoid  the  physiological  results  of  the  sexual  act  is 
necessarily  stronger  out  of  wedlock  than  within  it.  Not  only  will 
sterilization  appeal  to  the  male  sex  but  also  to  the  female,  perhaps  in 
some  instances  more  strongly,  because  of  the  fact  that  the  burden  of 
responsibility  and  care  of  bearing  and  rearing  children  falls  most 
heavily  on  the  females.  Especially  will  it  appeal  to  the  female  because 
she  herself  need  not  submit  to  the  knife  in  order  to  accomplish  the 
desired  result. 

The  Economic  Phase  of  Sterilization.  The  foregoing  considera- 
tion is  inextricably  commingled  with  economic  conditions.  The  in- 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


889 


creased  cost  of  living,  which  means  increased  obstacles  to  matrimony, 
bears  particularly  on  the  expense  of  rearing  a family.  Economic  con- 
d’tions  are  likely  to  grow  worse  instead  of  better.  The  proportion 
of  marriages  will  necessarily  decrease.  Sterilization  obviously  is  an 
answer  to  some  of  the  problems  which  confront  society  in  reference 
to  the  expense  of  rearing  a family. 

A very  important  phase  of  the  economic  problem  that  confronts 
people  of  marriageable  age  is  necessarily  the  probability  of  children. 
Under  present  conditions  the  average  small  wage  earner  is  compelled 
to  remain  a celibate  on  account  of  the  disproportion  between  wages  and 
I the  amount  necessary  to  maintain  a family.  It  is  possible  that  steriliza- 
tion may  increase  the  proportion  of  marriages  among  such  wage 
earners. 

The  Moral  Aspect  of  Sterilisation.  While  it  may  be  an  open  ques- 
tion whether  sterilization  will  increase  the  proportion  of  marriages, 
there  can  hardly  be  any  doubt  as  to  its  demoralizing  effect,  according 
to  present  ethical  and  moral  standards  of  sex  relations.  Under  pres- 
ent conditions  a rapidly  increasing  class  of  wage  earners  are  com- 
manded by  society  to  remain  sex  neuters.  This  is  especially  true  of 
the  female  wage  earner. 

The  sex  function  alone  of  all  the  functions  of  the  body  is  com- 
manded by  ethical  considerations  and  moral  law  to  remain  dormant. 
As  a matter  of  fact,  however,  it  does  not  and  will  not  remain  dor- 
mant. 

Society  has  not  yet  arrived  at  the  stage  of  development  which  would 
enable  it  to  openly  face  the  issue.  Society  merely  shuts  its  eyes  and 
goes  on  mouthing  impractical  and  hypocritic  ethical  and  moral  in- 
hibitions of  biological  law. 

If  the  practice  of  sterilization  ever  becomes  at  all  general,  society 
eventually  may  be  compelled  to  admit  that  inhibition  of  sexual  im- 
morality has  depended  more  upon  the  danger  of  paying  the  physio- 
. logical  penalty,  especially  on  the  part  of  the  female  than  upon  any 
moral  or  ethical  influence  per  se.  Remove  the  danger  of  pregnancy 
and  we  take  the  lid  off. 

Sterilization  as  a Substitute  for  the  Abortionist.  However  much 
the  fact  may  be  deplored ; however  strenuously  we  may  legislate  and 
preach  against  abortion,  the  practitioner  of  this  illegal  operation  is,  un- 
der present  and  moral  economic  conditions,  a popular  and  unavoidable 
social  institution. 

The  substitution  of  the  term  “curettement”  for  the  term  “criminal 
abortion”  has  merely  served  to  conceal  the  fire  and  to  make  the  custom 
more  widespread  among  supposedly  ethical  physicians.  Sterilization 
may  prove  to  be  a social  factor  which  will  greatly  limit  the  practice  of 
abortion. 

Sterilization  and  the  Church.  The  church,  which  has  always  ex- 
ercised a supervision  over  the  right  of  the  human  being  to  procreate  or 
not  to  procreate,  will  soon,  in  my  opinion,  have  a very  important  prob- 
lem on  its  hands,  and  will  have  to  join  with  the  State  in  the  endeavor 
to  regulate  the  practice  of  sterilization. 

Whatever  religious  views  one  may  hold  upon  the  subject,  and  what- 
ever social  theories  one  may  entertain,  it  must  be  admitted  that  the  in- 


890  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee  i 

dividual  right  to  determine  whether  or  not  he  or  she  shall  have  children, 
and  when,  and  how  many  shall  be  procreated,  is  at  least  an  open  ques-  I 
tion.  The  large  family  is  an  ideal  proposition  in  the  abstract,  but  in 
the  concrete,  in  the  light  of  present  economic  conditions  there  are  those 
who  believe  that  not  to  be  born  at  all  is  better  than  a life  of  misery  and  i 
degradation,  and  that  a few  children,  properly  reared,  should  be  the  j 
ideal  of  the  family  rather  than  a large  number  of  children  who  can  : 
not  possibly  be  brought  up  as  healthy  and  useful  citizens.  That  woman  / 
should  be  sacrificed,  as  she  often  is,  to  the  “Rooseveltian”  idea  of  a i 
large  family  has  never  been  quite  clear  to  me  as  it  seems  to  be  to  • 
others. 

Church  and  State  unite  in  condemning  all  methods  of  prevention  of  i 
conception.  Will  not  both,  if  consistent,  be  compelled  to  “sit  up  and  I 
take  notice”  when  sterilization  of  “the  fit”  becomes  popularized? 

Relation  of  Sterilization  to  Illegitimacy.  Should  sterilization  sup-  ■ 
plant  the  abortionist  as  a social  institution  it  will  be  a saving  factor  for  ) 
certain  of  the  unborn. 

Society’s  attitude  toward  the  abortionist  is  about  as  inconsistent  as  • 
any  social  folly  that  could  be  mentioned.  The  woman  who  bears  an  : 
illegitimate  child  becomes  a social  pariah.  She  is  downtrodden  by 
man  and  despised  of  woman.  Her  child  is  branded  as  a bastard  before  ! 
it  is  born,  and  again  branded  directly  afterward.  The  State  practically  j 
does  nothing  to  save  the  life  of  the  illegitimate  child,  or  to  preserve  its  | 
health  and  morality  and  develop  it  into  a useful  citizen. 

If  the  bastard  child  were  the  arbiter  of  its  own  destiny,  it  never  J 
would  be  born. 

A demand  for  the  abortionist  is  created  by  society  itself,  and  then 
society  penalizes  the  operation  of  abortion,  rubbing  its  hands  in  hypo- 
critic  and  savage  glee  whenever  a poor  starveling  who  is  caught  in  the 
act  is  convicted  and  sent  to  the  penitentiary  as  sop  to  the  Cerberus  of 
ethics  and  morality.  The  fact  that  where  "one  abortionist  is  punished 
thousands  go  unscathed  does  not  weigh  in  the  balance.  i 

Individual  Rights  Versus  State  Rights.  I will  concede,  for  the  sake  | 
of  argument,  the  right  in  general  of  the  individual,  male  or  female,  to  1 
lie  sterilized,  especially  in  view  of  the  fact  that  in  the  case  of  the. male  ) 
sterilization  need  be  only  temporar}L 

I will  concede,  also,  that  sterilization  is  a valuable  therapeutic  re-  - 
source  in  certain  diseases,  and  a valuable  preventive  of  the  transmission  l 
of  disease  and  degeneracy  to  the  unborn. 

I will  further  concede  that  under  proper  regulation  it  will  be  of  ■ 
immense  advantage  to  the  State. 

I nevertheless  hold  the  opinion  that  the  laws  to  protect  societ}’ 
against  the  criminal  and  other  unfit  classes  by  sterilization  must  soon 
logically  be  followed  by  laws  for  the  regulation  of  the  operation  on 
“the  fit.” 

As  to  where  the  individual’s  right  to  be  sterilized  ends  and  the 
State’s  right  to  prohibit  sterilization  begins,  that  is  a subject  which  will 
require  very  careful  study,  wide  experience,  and  considerable  time  for 
its  elucidation. 

Obviously,  the  State  may  be  compelled  to  regulate  the  practice  of  • 


Prevalence  of  the  Social  Diseases 


891 


the  operation  by  the  surgeons  as  the  most  effective  means  of  protecting 
the  best  interest  of  the  State. 

The  foregoing  possibility  will  be  considered  by  some  as  a prophecy 
of  a social  alarmist.  I believe,  however,  that  what  I have  said  com- 
prehends merely  the  logical  results  that  may  be  expected  to  accrue  from 
the  inevitable  familiarity  of  the  public  with  sterilization  and  its  results. 
Possibly  it  may  come  with  better  grace  from  myself,  who  always  have 
' been  a strenuous  advocate  of  sterilization  as  a factor  in  social  thera- 
; peutics,  than  from  others  who  have  not  been  quite  so  friendly  to  this 
particular  method  of  social  self-defense. 


^ Let  the  Fittest  Survive. 

; (By  Dr.  O’Deon  Bourque.) 

j:  With  the  laws  of  Eugenics  coming  before  the  public,  the  most 

natural  question  is:  What  is  the  best  thing  to  do?  Eugenic  marriages 

i as  proposed  by  some,  or  the  old  fashioned  love  marriage?  This  hardly 

I needs  an  answer,  but  can  love  marriages  be  eugenic?  If  so,  it  should 
be  decreed. 

. Tuberculosis,  “The  great  white  plague,”  is  not  hereditary,  as  has 
been  proven ; therefore  one  with  tuberculosis  may  even  marry  under 
certain  conditions  and  bear  healthy  children. 

Syphillis,  on  the  other  hand,  may  be  hereditary  and  while  it  is  pos- 
sible for  a syphillitic  parent  to  bear  a healthy  child,  the  chances  are 
largely  against  the  child.  Criminals,  degenerates,  idiots,  epileptics,  im- 
beciles, monstrosities,  neurotics,  etc.,  are  most  frequently  the  fruit  of 
syphillitic  inheritance.  Fortunately  for  the  world,  a great  percentage 
of  these  unfortunates  die  within  the  first  weeks  of  life. 

I With  the  present  increase  of  syphillis,  especial  care  should  be  ex- 
ercised and  even  rigid  laws  enacted  to  control  its  spread  and  its  rav- 
ages. Imbeciles,  epileptics,  criminals,  degenerates,  should,  by  law, 
be  made  sterile.  Syphillitics  should  be  so  carefully  guarded  during  the 
course  of  the  disease  that  pregnancies  cannot  occur.  Marriages  or  in- 
termarriages of  syphillitics  should  be  condemned  until  a thorough 
course  of  treatment  and  several  negative  Wasserman’s,  have  convinced 
the  attending  physician  of  the  complete  recovery. 


Now,  Senator  Beall,  there,  no  doubt,  are  many  ideas  and  re- 
marks in  my  letter  which  do  not  meet  your  approval ; but  even  if  we 
cannot  all  be  of  the  same  mind  there  certainly  should  be  no  offense 
in  expressing  our  own  opinion  freely. 

Trusting  this  will  be  of  some  benefit  to  you,  I remain, 

Yours  faithfully, 

J.  A.  W.  FERNOW,  M.  D. 


SOCIAL  EVIL 
IN  FOREIGN 
COUNTRIES 


Report  of  an  investigation  made  in  July  and  August, 
1912,  in  Europe  for  the  Vice  Commission  of  PhiU' 
delphia. 


NOTE. — The  Philadelphia  Vice  Commission,  to  which  reference 
is  made  in  thie  chapter  on  “The  Recommendations  of  Other  Vice 
Committees,”  was  the  sole  American  municipal,  or  state,  committee 
to  extend  its  inquiry  through  personal  investigation  beyond  the 
national  boundary-lines.  Your  Committee  is  of  opinion  that  the 
report  of  this  inquiry,  herewith  reprinted,  will  prove  of  interest  and 
value  to  those  legislators  of  this  state  interested  in  the  foreign  treat- 
ment of  the  vice  problem.  The  report  of  this  inquiry  is  of  especial 
value  as  being  probably  the  last  American  survey  of  the  nature  under- 
taken before  the  present  war  had  effected  a change  in  the  European 
situation.  The  report  is  copyrighted  by  the  Vice  Commission  of 
Philadelphia,  William  Clarke  Mason,  Chairman,  to  whom  your  Com- 
mittee hereby  acknowledges  its  indebtedness. 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


895 


U' 


■;  By  RABBI  HENRY  BERKOWITZ. 

^ A Member  of  the  Philadelphia  Commission. 

To  the  Chairman  and  Members  of  the  Philadelphia  Vice  Commission: 

Your  sub-committee  on  “Disease  and  Medical  Questions,” 
at  its  initial  meeting,  June  20,  1912,  assigned  a separate  task  for 
the  summer  to  each  of,  its  members.  The  undersigned  was  re- 
quested to  make  some  investigations,  while  abroad,  into  the  mode 
of  handling  the  vice  problem  in  the  European  cities  he  might 
visit.  The  Chairman  of  the  Sub-Committee,  Dr.  Hatfield,  was 
so  earnest  in  urging  this  request  that  he  speedily  secured  from  his 
Honor,  Mayor  Blankenburg,  and  hastily  dispatched  to  the  steam- 
ship, letters  of  introduction  to  the  Lord  Mayor  of  London;  the  Lord 
Provost  of  Edinburgh,  and  the  Ober-Burgermeister  of  Berlin. 

The  responsible  task  thus  intrusted  to  my  hands  I have  ful- 
filled to  the  best  of  my  ability,  and  beg  leave  to  report  such  re- 
sults of  my  efforts  as  it  was  possible  to  secure  in  the  limited  time 
at  command. 

LONDON. 

On  arrival  in  London,  at  the  earliest  opportunity  I proceeded 
to  the  Mansion  House.  The  Lord  Mayor  himself  was  away ; but 
his  secretary,  acting  in  his  behalf,  at  once  provided  me  with  a 
card  to  the  “man  in  Great  Britain,”  as  he  declared,  “best  informed 
and  best  qualified  to  speak  on  the  subject,  Mr.  W,  A.  Coote.” 
I proceeded  at  once  to  his  office  and  was  cordially  received.  He  is 
secretary  of  the  International  Abolitionist  Federation,  founded 
about  thirty  years  ago,  and  having  as  its  object  an  aggressive 
campaign  against  the  old  and  still  largely  prevalent  system  of 
governmental  and  municipal  regulation  of  the  social  evil.  The 
active  part  in  this  work  taken  by  Mr.  Coote,  his  share  in  organiz- 
ing the  International  Committees  in  Europe  and  the  American 
Vigilance  Committee  in  New  York,  were  known  to  me,  and  his 
familiarity  with  conditions  in  our  country  enabled  us  to  get 
speedily  into  the  heart  of  the  subject. 

Mr.  Coote  declared  that  the  appointment  of  the  Philadelphia 
Vice  Commission,  in  line  with  the  like  commissions  in  New  York, 
Chicago,  and  Minneapolis,  demonstrated  that  America  is  leading 
the  nations  in  an  honest  endeavor  to  do  something  toward  remedy- 
ing the  great  evil  we  are  combating.  On  the  basis  of  accurate 
knowledge  of  local  conditions  in  each  community,  and  with  earnest- 
minded  men  and  women  serving  the  municipality  with  matured 
counsel,  he  felt  sure  we  were  bound  to  secure  definite  benefits. 

Mr.  Coote  declared  to  me  in  full  candor  that  the  vice  problem 
in  American  cities,  as  everywhere,  is  mainly  a police  problem. 
He  said : “The  greatest  moral  force  in  any  community  is  not  the 
Mayor,  not  the  clergy,  not  the  press,  but  the  chief  of  police.  Given 
an  upright,  capable  chief  and  you  will  have  a police  force  that 


896  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

would  not  dare  to  enter  into  collusion  with  and  profit  by  vice. 
There  are  18,000  policemen  in  London,  yet  no  taint  rests  upon 
them.” 

All  this  was  said  before  the  shameful  police  scandal  of  this 
summer  in  New  York  had  been  exposed.  Nothing  has  occurred 
in  many  months  which  has  done  so  much  to  degrade  America  in 
the  eyes  of  the  foreigner.  In  all  my  interviews  with  public  of- 
ficials in  various  European  capitals,  the  same  reference  was  made 
to  the  weakness  in  our  municipalities.  In  London,  in  Berlin,  and 
other  capitals,  the  policeman  is  a national  officer,  though  in  the 
municipal  employ.  In  Germany  every  policeman  is  a non-com- 
missioned officer  of  the  army.  To  be  qualified  for  the  important 
trust  of  the  guardianship  of  the  law  he  must  have  a record  of  not 
less  than  twelve  years’  faithful  service  in  the  army. 

What  the  very  first  man  said  with  whom  I conferred  in  Europe 
was  repeated  and  confirmed  by  every  other  man  with  whom  I 
spoke,  whether  European  officer,  American  Ambassador  or  Consul, 
or  private  physician  or  sociologist  The  consensus  of  opinion  is 
that  in  the  vice  problem,  as  in  many  other  problems,  we  shall 
make  no  progress  in  the  United  States  until  we  have  raised  the 
standards  and  lifted  our  police  system  to  a higher  plane  of  honor 
and  respect  in  the  eyes  of  the  public.  I submit  that  it  might  be 
well  for  our  Commission  to  consider  this  root  problem,  and  if 
possible,  formulate  some  recommendation  on  the  basis  of  the  sug- 
gestion offered  by  European  cities  to  keep  our  police  permanently 
out  of  politics ; e.  g.,  by  limiting  the  selection  to  men  with  a record 
of  faithful  service,  perhaps  in  the  State  militia,  or,  at  any  rate, 
with  a record  for  stability  and  integrity  such  as  would  raise  the 
status  of  the  whole  vocation  of  policemen. 

Mr.  Coote,  in  answer  to  my  inquiries,  informed  me  that  the 
prostitute  in  England  is  not  considered  a criminal;  but  that  person 
is  who  rents  a house  or  room  for  immoral  purposes.  The  prosti- 
tute is  not  persecuted,  and  since  the  abolition  in  1866  of  the  brothel 
under  legal  control,  with  medical  inspection  and  licensing  of  the 
inmates,  there  has  been  marked  improvement  in  the  conditions. 
Contrary  to  all  the  foreboding  of  skeptics,  venereal  diseases  have 
not  increased,  but  have  become  less  prevalent.  Literature  setting 
forth  the  work  of  education  and  propaganda  being  conducted  in 
England  Mr.  Coote  kindly  volunteered  to  forward  directly  to 
Philadelphia. 

EDINBURGH. 

In  Edinburgh  my  letter  to  the  Lord  Provost  secured  me  an 
interview  with  Dr.  A.  Williamson,  Head  of  the  Municipal  Health 
Bureau.  I learned  that  in  this  city  there  were  350  so-called 
“Earmed-out  houses”  occupied  at  present,  118  vacant.  Each  of 
these  is  presided  over  by  a person  called  a “house  farmer.”  These 
are  well-known  resorts  of  prostitution  which  seem  to  be  tolerated. 
This  gentleman  favors  legal  and  medical  control.  Here,  as  in 
London,  certain  wards  of  the  public  hospitals  are  set  aside  for  the 
treatment  of  those  afflicted  with  venereal  diseases.-  I secured 
a copy  of  an  address  delivered  hy  Dr.  Williamson  in  which  he 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


897 


depicts  the  conditions  of  vice  flourishing  in  Edinburgh,  and  bewails 
the  inadequacy  of  laws  and  measures  for  combating  the  same. 

i visited  the  office  of  the  National  Vigilance  Association  for 
Scotland  at  Edinburgh,  and  learned  that  the  work  is  just  being 
instituted  in  that  country. 

CHRISTIANIA. 

After  a trip  to  the  North  Cape,  I was  privileged  to  make  an 
inland  tour  of  the  Scandinavian  countries.  At  Christiania,  Nor- 
way, through  the  kind  offices  of  the  American  legation,  I secured 
an  interview  with  Stadsfysikus  Benzen. 

From  him  I learned  that  in  Norway  all  reglementation  has 
been  abolished  since  1889.  There  is  consequently  no  recognition 
of  prostitution,  either  by  segregation,  licensing,  sanitary  or  medical 
inspection,  or  otherwise.  He  declared  that  Christiania  had  not 
suffered,  but,  on  the  contrary,  had  improved.  In  1887  an  old 
law  of  May  16,  1860,  governing  the  control  of  contagious  and 
infectious  diseases,  had  been  expanded  so  as  to  apply  also  to  vene- 
real diseases.  Since  then  every  phyician  is  required  to  report  to 
the  Bureau  of  Health  every  case  of  infection  without  citing  names. 
When  the  source  of  the  infection  is  given,  the  person,  male  or 
female,  is  cited  before  the  health  authorities  and  examined.  If  the 
charge  is  found  confirmed,  the  individual  is  legally  obliged  to  sub- 
mit to  treatment  at  home  or  in  the  public  hospital,  under  penalty 
of  fine  or  imprisonment,  but  free  of  expense.  To  the  person  found 
afflicted  with  venereal  diseases,  the  physician  is  obliged  to  give 
written  notification  of  this  fact.  If,  then,  the  patient,  neverthe- 
less, infects  others,  legal  punishment  ensues.  In  this  manner 
a certain  supervision  is  exercised  over  prostitution  without  the 
objectionable  features  of  registration,  investigation,  and  compul- 
sory detention  for  healing.  Statistics  published  show  that  this 
system  has  brought  about  a marked  decrease  in  venereal  diseases. 
The  report  for  1911  was  secured  by  me. 

Except  occasional  lectures  in  sex  hygiene,  no  public  educational 
work  is  as  yet  conducted  in  Norway.  The  police  system  has  two 
branches — the  criminal  and  the  morals  police.  The  latter  has 
charge  of  the  vice  problem.  Two  women  are  on  the  force  in 
Christiania. 

STOCKHOLM. 

In  Stockholm  also  the  American  legation  kindly  secured  for 
me  access  to  the  authorities.  I had  an  interview  with  Dr.  Andrew 
Backlund  (4  Vasagatan),  head  of  the  Health  Bureau  of  that  beau- 
tiful city.  I learned  that  a commission  has  been  at  work  during 
the  past  two  years  on  the  vice  problem  in  Sweden.  As  a result 
the  law  of  1906  has  been  abolished  with  the  old  system,  under 
which  prostitution  was  regulated,  licensed,  segregated,  and  investi- 
gated. The  Norwegian  plan  has  in  general  been  adopted  as  de- 
scribed above.  The  system  of  monthly  reports  from  the  physicians 
had  been  put  into  effect  just  one  month  previously.  Dr.  Backlund 
showed  me  a batch  of  about  100  reports  for  the  previous  week, 
which  had  just  come  to  his  desk.  As  far  as  the  maintenance  of 


898  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

public  order  and  decency  was  concerned,  he  declared  that  the 
quiet  work  of  the  morals  police  was  very  effective.  The  law 
reognizes  the  prostitute  only  in  two  instances — where  she  menaces 
public  health  by  spreading  contagion  the  law  compels  her  to  sub- 
mit to  medical  treatment,  and  when  she  interferes  with  public 
order  and  decency  she  is  punished  under  the  vagrancy  law. 

COPENHAGEN. 

In  Copenhagen  I was  fortunate  in  finding  at  his  post  our  Am- 
bassador, Dr.  Maurice  Francis  Egan,  a former  Philadelphian. 
Through  his  marked  kindness  and  friendly  interest  my  investiga- 
tions were  greatly  furthered.  Inspector  Gyldenfeldt,  head  of  the 
morals  police,  gave  me  an  extended  interview,  and  provided  me 
with  copies  of  the  police  regulations,  of  which  I had  a translation 
in  abstract  made.  The  inspector  introduced  me  to  the  head  of 
the  Health  Bureau,  who  provided  me  with  a copy  of  the  published 
report  for  1910,  in  which  he  also  inserted  statistics  for  1911. 

I gleaned  from  these  interviews  that  Denmark  has  in  some 
respects  bettered  the  law  of  Norway  and  Sweden.  Under  the  law 
of  1906  prostitutes  may  be  proceeded  against  as  vagrants  for  so- 
liciting, conducting  brothels,  renting  rooms  to  persons  under  eigh- 
teen years  of  age,  and  for  transmitting  venereal  infection.  The 
treatment  of  venereal  diseases  is  given  free  of  cost,  and  those 
afflicted  are  legally  bound  to  submit  to  treatment.  To  this  end 
police  authority  may  be  used  to  convey  the  recalcitrant  or  im- 
pecunious to  a public  hospital,  and  also  to  insure  further  necessary 
treatment  when  dismissed. 

BERLIN. 

Ten  days  were  devoted  to  Berlin.  Perhaps  no  other  city  in 
the  world  offers  a more  interesting  or  important  field  of  investi- 
gation. Paris  and  Berlin  are  both  pursuing  similar  courses  in 
their  manner  of  handling  the  vice  problem,  and  these  influence 
all  the  other  communities  in  a marked  degree.  Exceptional  oppor- 
tunities were  afforded  to  me  for  getting  quite  a clear  insight  into 
the  workings  of  the  system  in  vogue.  The  President  of  the  Amer- 
ican Association  of  Commerce  and  Trade  in  Berlin,  hlr.  I.  Wolf, 
of  the  Philadelphia  firm  of  Wolf  & Co.,  , secured  the  opening  of 
many  closed  doors  that  I might  find  entr}L  Before  my  arrival  in 
Berlin  I had  informed  him  of  my  mission  by  letter,  and  he  had 
prearranged  an  interview  with  our  fellow-townsman,  the  Hon. 
William  A.  Thackara,  U.  S.  Consul  General  at  Berlin,  hlr.  Thack- 
ara  imparted  much  valuable  information  drawn  from  his  personal 
observations  and  studies  of  the  Berlin  system,  and  instructed  me 
in  the  best  methods  of  securing  accurate  and  reliable  data.  He 
generously  appointed  his  deputy,  Mr.  F.  Von  Versen,  to  accom- 
pany me  and  serve  as  an  interlocutor  whenever  necessary.  An 
appointment  was  secured,  and  our  first  visit  was  made  to  the 
Biirgermeister  Reicke,  to  whom  I presented  hlayor  Blankenburg’s 
letter.  At  once  every  courtesy  was  extended,  and  the  privilge 
of  securing  access  to  all  offices  and  institutions.  Biirgermeister 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


899 


Reicke  graciously  entered  into  an  extended  conference  with  us 
in  which  he  explained  that  a general  statute  of  the  German  Govern- 
f ment  requires  the  regulation  of  prostitution,  but  that  each  city  has 
autonomy  in  determining  its  own  methods  of  administration. 
Thus,  Hamburg,  Bremen,  Leipzig,  and  other  cities  segregate  vice 
and  limit  it  to  definite  streets,  permit  brothels,  and  under  police 
regulation  license  the  prostitutes  and  require  them  to  submit  to 
' periodic  medical  examination.  Berlin  has  abandoned  the  segre- 
gation idea  and  has  adopted  a number  of  regulations  of  its  own. 
' These  are  intrusted  to  the  special  department  of  the  police  force 
called  “die  Sittenpolizei,”  or  morals  police.  He  commended  me 
!j  to  the  chief  of  that  department  for  copies  of  the  laws  and  further 
details.  The  Biirgermeister  was  at  special  pains  to  acquaint  me 
i;  with  the  extended  work  being  done  in  Berlin  in  the  matter  of  con- 
trolling the  spread  of  venereal  diseases.  At  his  suggestion  I visited 
j Das  Asyl  fur  Obdachlose,  “The  Refuge  for  the  Homeless,”  a series 
, of  public  buildings  with  accommodations  for  8000  persons — -the 
homeless  and  the  indigent.  When  we  entered  the  place  a little 
family  of  waifs — lost  or  deserted  French  children — were  being  ad- 
mitted. Owing  to  the  message  from  the  Biirgermeister  we  were 
treated  as  foreign  inspectors,  and  kept  waiting  while  the  place 
was  cleaned  up  and  put  in  order.  We  visited  only  the  section 
set  aside  as  a detention  hospital  for  girls  who  have  been  discov- 
ered infected  with  venereal  diseases.  The  Biirgermeister  had  made 
some  apologetic  reference  to  the  place  being  old,  worn,  and  inade- 
quate, and  declared  that  plans  were  being  formulated  for  a new, 
commodious,  modernized  municipal  hospital,  to  be  devoted  only  to 
this  class  of  patients.  There  are  260  beds,  always  occupied.  How- 
I ever,  the  Biirgermeister  had  also  emphasized  the  value  of  a new 
regulation  by  which  voluntary  applicants  were  receiving  private 
treatment  in  their  own  homes,  under  the  charge  of  the  city’s  dis- 
trict physicians.  There  are  about  5000  registered  prostitutes  in 
Berlin  at  present.  It  has  been  estimated  that  there  are  4000  or 
5000  women  engaged  in  prostitution  clandestinely,  or  from  time  to 
time,  under  pressure  of  economic  necessities.  The  law  requires 
every  such  woman  over  eighteen  years  of  age  to  register.  She 
is  given  a “control-book,”  is  obliged  to  subject  herself  to  regular 
examinations  by  the  city’s  district  physician,  is  prohibited  being 
seen  on  definitely  named  streets,  public  gathering-places,  parks, 
railway  stations,  etc.  The  prostitute  is  not  regarded  as  a criminal, 
and  comes  in  conflict  with  the  law  only  when  she  transgresses  any 
of  the  regulations  of  the  police  authorities. 

All  these  facts  I gleaned  in  our  interview  with  the  Chief  of  the 
Berlin  morals  police.  Inspector  Penzig.  He  was  exceedingly  re- 
luctant at  first  to  make  any  communication,  owing,  it  appeared, 
to  a natural  resentment  he  held  against  certain  foreigners  who  had 
abused  his  confidences  and  published  in  foreign  papers  sensational 
articles  reflecting  on  the  Berlin  system.  The  eloquence  of  Mr. 
Von  Versen,  the  Deputy  U.  S.  Consul,  finally  convinced  the  stolid 
official  that  a commissioner  sent  out  by  the  mayor  of  Philadelphia 
was  a person  above  suspicion,  and  entitled  to  the  utmost  deference, 
This  the  Biirgermeister  himself  had  exemplified.  Inspector  Penzig 


900  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

was  mollified  and  became  exceedingly  gracious.  He  provided  me 
with  a copy  of  the  Polizeiliche  V orschriften,  or  printed  regulations 
governing  prostitution  and  the  control  of  venereal  diseases.  He 
likewise  gave  me  an  official  Merkhlatt,  or  pamphlet  of  instructions 
to  girls — how  to  take  care  of  themselves  in  a sanitary  way,  and, 
especially,  full  information  of  the  rescue  work  being  done  in  Berlin 
and  the  opportunities  for  finding  work  and  for  reform.  These 
documents  I submit,  together  with  an  important  magazine  article 
from  the  pen  of  Director  Penzig,  descriptive  of  the  whole  Berlin 
system.  It  is  entitled,  “Die  Bekampfung  der  Gewerbsunzucht 
durch  die  Sittenpolizei,”  i.  e.,  “The  Work  of  the  Morals  Police  in 
Combating  Prostitution.”  This  article  appeared  in  a magazine  is- 
sued in  Breslau,  Gesetz  und  Rechi,  and  the  inspector  took  the 
trouble  to  write  to  the  publishers  to  find  a copy,  for  the  edition  was 
exhausted,  and,  having  secured  it,  sent  it,  revised  and  corrected, 
by  special  messenger  to  our  hotel.  There  was  some  commotion 
at  the  hotel,  to  my  amusement,  when  the  special  emissary  from  the 
police  department  entered  the  place. 

As  far  as  I could  learn,  the  police  control  of  venereal  diseases  in 
Berlin  is  limited  to  women,  and  makes  no  effort,  as  is  done  in  the 
Scandinavian  countries,  also  to  reach  the  men  who  are  spreading 
the  contagion.  There  is  much  dissatisfaction  with  this  and  other 
discrepancies.  The  system  of  registration  and  reglementation  is 
no  longer  regarded,  even  by  officials  Avho  are  engaged  in  enforcing 
them,  as  the  last  word  on  the  subject.  A commission  appointed 
by  the  German  Government  to  devise  amendments  and  improve- 
ments for  the  entire  system  has  recently  published  a preliminary 
statement  of  proposed  changes.  These  are  being  widely  discussed 
at  present. 


An  account  of  these  proposals  is  included  in  a very  concise 
but  most  exhaustive  treatment  of  the  whole  subject  of  prostitution, 
contributed  by  the  eminent  Dr.  Blaschko,  to  a recent  edition  of 
the  Handworterbuch  der  Staatswissenschaften  (Encyclopedia  of  the 
Science  of  Government,  Gustav  Fischer,  Jena,  19101.  Through 
the  mediation  of  Dr.  Otto  Stulz,  with  whom  I became  acquainted 
in  Berlin,  I was  accorded  an  opportunity'  to  meet  Dr.  A.  Blaschko, 
and  to  confer  with  him  in  person.  I had  read  much  about  him 
and  knew  him  to  be  one  of  the  most  eminent  living  authorities 
on  the  subject.  He  is  head  of  a large  Dermatological  Institute 
in  Berlin.  Dr.  Blaschko  was  kind  enough  to  present  me  with  an 
inscribed  copy  of  a reprint  of  the  encyclopedia  article  to  which 
I have  referred.  I found  on  his  desk  the  reports  of  the  New  York 
and  Chicago  Vice  Commissions,  and  of  the  New  York  Society  for 
Social  and  Moral  Prophylaxis,  with  similar  publications  in  the 
various  languages  of  the  globe.  The  verbal  statements  he  made 
are  all  amplified  in  the  searching  analysis  of  the  subject  he  has 
made  in  print.  I have  read  and  reread  the  article,  and  know  that 
it  contains  material  of  the  highest  value  to  each  of  our  subcom- 
mittees. Dr.  Blaschko  kindly  volunteered  any  further  informa- 
tion desired  by  correspondence.  He  suggested  also  that  this  Com- 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


901 


mission,  or  some  kindred  body  of  the  city  of  Philadelphia,  enroll 
for  membership,  and  thus  secure  the  publications  of  Die  Deutsche 
Gesellschaft  sur  Bekaempfung  der  Geschlechts-Krankheiten,  “The  Ger- 
man Society  for  Combating  Venereal  Diseases.”  Of  this  society 
Dr.  Blaschko  is  the  organizing  and  moving  spirit.  He  instructed 
one  of  his  associates.  Dr.  Eugene  Fisher,  to  conduct  me  to  the  office 
of  the  society,  explain  its  workings,  and  provide  me  with  its  liter- 
ature. I submit  the  report  of  the  society,  1902-1911,  showing  that 
it  was  organized  October  19,  1902,  has  at  present  5000  members, 
men  and  women,  physicians,  and  laymen,  representatives  of  Church, 
of  State,  and  all  branches  of  society.  This  organization  has  de- 
veloped an  intense  activity  of  a wide  range.  It  has  branches  in  all 
parts  of  Germany.  It  sends  out  lecturers,  exhibits,  lantern-slides, 
charts,  etc.,  issues  an  annual,  also  a monthly  magazine  of  popular 
scientific  character;  has  held  public  conferences  in  1903,  1905,  1907; 
has  circulated  six  million  tracts  on  such  themes  as : “To  Parents — 
How  Shall  They  Train  Their  Children  in  Sexual  Matters?”  “To 
Women  and  Girls;”  “To  Young  Men,”  etc. 

It  circulates  important  books  on  the  subject  and  has  made 
active  and  successful  propaganda  in  social,  educational,  and  polit- 
ical circles,  with  the  following  results : 

1.  The  extension  of  sick  benefits  to  those  affected  with  venereal 
diseases. 

2.  The  improvement  of  conditions  in  hospitals  for  venereal  diseases, 
which  has  resulted  in  overcoming  the  public  prejudice  against  treat- 
ment in  these  hospitals. 

3.  Establishment  of  chairs  on  venereology  in  the  medical  school 
at  all  the  German  universities. 

4.  Addresses  at  all  universities  on  sexual  hygiene. 

5.  Courses  in  normal  colleges  on  the  pedagogy  of  sex  hygiene. 

6.  Addresses  to  parents. 

7.  Addresses  in  factories. 

8.  Revision  of  the  Sanitary  Police  Inspection  of  Prostitutes  in 
Prussia. 

9.  Submitted  to  the  Commission  of  the  Reichstag  an  amendment 
to  existing  laws  to  the  effect  that  prostitutes  as  such  be  not  punished 
unless  found  guilty  of  breach  of  public  order,  also  making  the  wilful 
and  conscious  transmission  of  disease  an  offense  subject  to  severest 
punishment;  furthermore,  that  no  punishment  shall  be  inflicted  for 
housing  prostitutes,  provided  they  do  not  engage  in  sexual  traffic  nor 
use  the  premises  as  a brothel. 

10.  Enactments  against  quack  doctors  vigorpusly  advocated  before 
the  Reichstag. 

This  large  program  of  active  educational  endeavor  is  subven- 
tioned  by  both  the  city  and  the  State,  and  is  beginning  to  yield 
notable  results  in  Germany.  The  Biirgermeister  presented  me 
with  a copy  of  the  last  report  of  “The  Continuation  Schools” — 
F ortschritts-S chulen.  In  these  schools  the  compulsory  education 
law  is  extended  to  youths  between  fourteen  and  seventeen  years. 
They  are  obliged  to  attend  six  hours  per  week,  and  their  parents 
or  employers  are  fined  for  cases  of  absence.  These  schools  offer 
practical  instruction  in  every  pursuit  of  a mechanical,  industrial, 
and  domestic  character.  Instruction  .in  matters  of  sex  is  given  to 
the  graduating  classes  by  physicians. 


902  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

In  my  conference  with  the  Biirgermeister  I ventured  to  ask 
him  bluntly  whether  all  the  money,  thought,  and  effort  put  forth 
in  the  elaborate  system  of  control  was  not  idle  as  long  as  the 
official  sanction  or  tolerance  was  granted  to  places  which  foster 
the  vice,  viz.,  the  wide-open  cabarets,  gorgeous  music-halls  and 
dance-halls— from  the  cheapest  up  to  the  Palais  de  Dance.  There, 
it  is  reported  by  eye-witnesses,  the  demi-monde  foregather  in  the 
midst  of  surroundings  of  such  splendor  as  are  to  be  found  no- 
where else  in  the  world,  and  openly  make  their  appointments. 
The  Biirgermeister  was  somewhat  surprised  at  the  question,  for 
he  rather  warmly  declared  that  these  places  are,  from  the  point  of 
yiw  of  police  control,  beyond  objection;  that  they  are  conducted 
in  a quiet,  orderly,  law-abiding  manner.  As  far  as  clandestine 
prostitution  was  concerned,  he  admitted  that  the  authorities  were 
helpless  and  the  governmental  machinery  powerless. 

HAMBURG. 

It  was  a matter  of  deep  interest  to  me  to  visit  Hamburg  in 
view  of  the  fact  that  Hamburg  is  a city  which  declines  to  affiliate 
with  the  new  movement  looking  to  the  abolition  of  governmental 
control  of  prostitution,  and  adheres  to  the  medical  plan  of  segrega- 
tion and  strict  supervision.  U.  S.  Consul  General  Thackara,  of 
Berlin,  had  kindly  provided  me  with  a card  of  introduction  to  the 
U.  S.  Vice  and  Deputy  Consul  Ernest  H.  L.  IMummenhoft  at 
Hamburg.  Through  the  courtesy  of  the  latter  I gained  access 
to  the  office  of  the  morals  police,  but  the  chief,  Herr  Bauer,  was 
unwilling  to  make  any  communication  until  I had  seen  the  head 
of  Police  Department  and  made  clear  my  mission.  Having  secured 
his  acquaintance.  Inspector  Bauer  accorded  me  an  extended  inter- 
view, in  which  he  declared  his  readiness  to  give  me  full  information 
for  our  Commission.  I found  him  a man  of  intelligence.  At 
his  elbow,  a large  library  of  works  in  German  and  French  for 
reference  on  the  theme  under  discussion.  He  informed  me  that  he 
had  given  twenty-seven  years  of  continuous  service  to  this  cause. 
He  expressed  himself  vigorously,  and  took  strong  grounds  in 
support  of  the  Hamburg  system.  He  scouted  the  whole  modern 
movement  as  one  of  faddists,  blue-stockings,  and  visionaries. 

Each  city  has  its  own  problem,  he  declared.  Hamburg’s  prob- 
lem is  that  of  a seaport  into  which  sailors  flock  after  long  periods 
of  abstinence.  Segregation  provided  them  with  distinct  locali- 
ties for  the  satisfaction  of  what  he  regarded  as  their  physical 
needs,  and  in  this  manner  the  city  streets  were  kept  free  from 
drunken  brawls  and  bloody  crimes.  He  declared  that  far  from 
being  dens  of  thugs,  the  segregated  districts  were  the  best  policed 
in  the  city.  The  brothel-keepers  are  themselves  most  interested 
in  keeping  their  places  quiet  and  free  from  crime.  They  are 
the  first  to  report  any  breach  of  the  law,  and  no  such  thing  as 
police  graft  or  blackmail  is  known.  He  respected  the  American 
principle  of  personal  freedom,  but  insisted  that  we  gave  it  too 
much  swing.  Scattering  prostitution,  he  averred,  is  like  scattering 
evil,  instead  of  confining  it.  A mad  dog  is  not  allowed  to  run  the 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


903 


streets,  a public  menace,  but  is  shot  down.  The  insane  and  feeble- 
minded are  confined ; so,  too,  should  the  morally  weak  and  degen- 
erate be  kept  under  control.  He  spoke  strongly,  and  in  no  halting 
terms,  about  the  police  scandal  in  New  York,  about  the  sham 
system,  or  lack  of  system,  in  American  cities,  which  protects  vice 
by  making  periodic  raids,  and  exacts  fines  as  a tax  from  brothel- 
keepers.  He  thought  Hamburg  acted  more  honestly  in  legally  ex- 
acting the  tax.  The  sale  of  drink  is  not  allowed  in  brothels,  but 
total  suppression  is  unsuccessful. 

When  I asked  about  the  efforts  made  to  control  venereal  dis- 
eases he  described  the  system,  which  is  identical  with  that  of 
Berlin  and  other  cities.  He  provided  me  with  copies  of  the  con- 
trol books  issued  to  girls,  the  licenses,  and  the  printed  police  regu- 
lations and  office  records.  He  admitted  that  they  were  unable  to 
reach  all  cases,  but  avowed  that  this  care  and  cure  of  part  is 
certainly  better  than  the  American  system  of  caring  for  and  cur- 
ing none.  Hamburg  is  supposed  to  have  about  3000  prostitutes ; 
of  these,  1000  are  under  the  reglementation  of  the  morals  police. 
Free  medical  examinations,  regular  weekly  inspection,  and  hospital 
treatment  are  vigorously  enforced. 

In  education  Hamburg  is  doing  nothing  officially.  Inspector 
Bauer  is  opposed  to  all  efforts  to  instruct  children.  He  sees  some 
good  in  the  movement  conducted  by  Dr.  Blaschko,  but  believes 
the  physicians  should  confine  their  efforts  to  medical  research, 
declaring  that  for  one  hundred  years  the  profession  has  contributed 
nothing  new  to  our  knowledge  or  treatment  of  venereal  diseases. 
He  also  belittled  the  idea  of  a single  code  of  morals  for  men  and 
women  in  matters  of  chasity,  declaring  that  while  a man  pays 
for  the  gratification  of  his  sexual  instinct,  one  woman  will  accept 
pay  from  dozens  of  men  in  one  day  only  to  gratify  her  lust  for 
money,  in  order  to  satisfy  her  vanity  in  fine  clothes,  unless  it  be 
the  pressure  of  poverty  which  impels  her. 

BIBLIOGRAPHY. 

I 

For  the  use  of  the  Vice  Commission  I shall  be  glad  to  place 
at  the  disposal  of  the  members  the  following  publications,  which 
I have  added  to  my  library: 

1.  The  reprint  of  Dr.  Blaschko’s  important  encyclopedia  arti- 
cle referred  to  above. 

2.  The  comprehensive  and  authoritative  work  of  Dr.  Iwan 
Bloch,  now  in  its  sixtieth  thousand,  entitled  “Das  Sexualleben 
unserer  Zeit  in  seiner  Beziehung  zur  modernen  Kultur,”  i.  e., 
“The  Sexual  Life  of  our  Times  in  its  Relation  to  Modern  Culture.” 

3.  “Die  Prostitution  in  Deutschland” — “Prostitution  in  Ger- 
many,” by  Robert  Hessen,  fifth  thousand. 

4.  “Wir  jungen  Maenner” — “We  Young  Men — The  Sexual 
Problem,”  by  Hans  Wegener,  one  hundred  and  tenth  thousand. 
There  is  also  an  English  edition. 

5.  “Der  heilige  Skarabieus,”  by  Elsa  Jerusalem.  A novel 
referred  to  by  Jane  Addams  in  her  book,  “A  New  Conscience  and 


904  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

an  Ancient  Evil,”  as  a sympathetic  study  of  the  “fallen  woman.” 
It  is  a revelation  of  the  toils  of  “slavery”  in  which  she  is  bound 
by  the  attitude  of  the  State,  of  society,  and  the  Church,  and  af- 
fords a heart-rending  revelation  of  the  white  slave  traffic  and  the 
helplessness  of  its  victims. 

6.  “Das  Hohe-Lied,”  by  Suderman — the  same  theme. 

7.  “Jugendlehre,”  by  Dr.  F.  W.  Foerster.  The  latest  educa- 
tional work  of  Germany,  in  its  sixtieth  thousand,  and  containing 
the  fullest  treatment  of  the  problem  of  sexual  pedagogy. 

SUMMARY. 

To  summarize  the  results  of  the  observations  herewith  sub- 
mitted, permit  me  to  indicate  that,  as  I understand  it,  the  vice  prob- 
lem needs  to  be  differentiated  as  presenting  two  distinct  phases: 

1.  The  safeguarding  of  public  order  and  public  health. 

2.  The  safeguarding  of  private  morals  and  personal  health. 

The  first  is  the  responsibility  of  our  law-makers,  courts,  and 

executives.  The  second,  the  function  of  our  homes,  our  schools, 
our  churches,  our  press,  and  all  other  cultural  agencies. 

Our  primary  concern  in  both  phases  of  this  problem  is  to  get 
rid  of  the  sham  conventionality,  mawkish  sentimentality,  anff 
hypocrisy  which  have  largely  prevailed  in  all  that  concerns  this 
most  vital  of  all  human  questions.  We  can  no  longer  close  our 
eyes  to  the  awful  effects  on  body,  mind,  and  soul  of  the  ‘‘laissez 
faire”  policy  of  letting  it  alone,  or  of  ignoring  it,  or  of  pretending 
that  it  does  not  exist.  We  must  accept  the  grim  reality.  We 
are  dealing  with  the  strongest  natural  instinct  implanted  in  the 
race.  We  are  called  upon  candidly  to  face  the  ravages  wrought 
by  elemental  passions.  It  is  a problem  of  the  ages,  but  it  con- 
fronts us  with  a seriousness  it  never  bore  to  any  previous  genera- 
tion. To  us  have  been  given  those  revelations  of  modem  science 
which  have  exposed  the  secret  sources  of  the  hydra-headed  evil 
that  fills  our  hospitals,  our  blind  asylums,  our  insane  asylums,  our 
homes  for  incurables,  our  reformatories,  our  prisons,  and  mocks 
the  work  of  philanthropy  and  moral  reform  as  a task  of  Sisyphus. 

THE  DIFFICUETIES  SUMMARIZED. 

The  enormous  difficulties  confronting  us  dare  not  be  blinked 
at  nor  minimized.  Our  efforts  to  formulate  practical  recommen- 
dations for  the  guidance  of  the  local  administration  will  bring  us 
face  to  face  with  the  necessity  of  taking  sides  in  a conflict  in  which 
the  nations,  as  well  as  the  city  governments,  of  the  world  are  at 
present  enlisted.  It  is  a conflict  of  fundamental  principles,  as 
well  as  of  divergent  methods. 

The  alternatives  have  been  succinctly  summarized  by  Robert 
Hessen  in  the  work  referred  to  above  (pp.  210-211)  : “Suppress 
the  brothel,  and  clandestine  prostitution  is  greatly  increased.  Tol- 
erate and  permit  the  brothels,  they  become  dominant,  and  with 
them  the  traffic  in  girls — a predatory  system  of  far-reaching  evil. 


Social  Evil  in  Foreign  Countries 


905 


Forbid  the  traffic  in  girls — the  white  slaver  becomes  more  elusive, 
but  his  wares  no  less  marketable.  Suppress  the  public  prosti- 
tutes— their  places  are  filled  clandestinely  by  the  girls  of  the  town. 
Punish  these  girls — pederasty  and  onanism  consume  the  vitality 
of  the  people.  Give  the  prostitutes  license — the  hunting  down 
of  men  and  boys  goes  on  brazenly  in  the  most  respectable  neigh- 
borhoods. Segregate  the  prostitutes  and  limit  them  to  definite 
streets— the  whole  neighborhood  is  up  in  arms.  Devise  carefully 
considered  and  wisely  drawn  laws  and  regulations — the  vast 
money-interests  involved  in  the  conduct  of  the  business  prompt 
to  most  subtle  modes  of  defeating  the  law  and  of  buying  up  the 
officials,  as  in  France,  thus  to  prevent  every  good  and  to  promote 
every  evil  measure.” 

GENERAL  AGREEMENTS. 

The  writer  who  has  given  this  graphic  summary  of  difficulties 
admits,  however,  that  there  are  two  things  whose  accomplishment 
is  feasible; 

1.  The  prevention  of  white  slavery. 

2.  The  preservation  of  cleanliness. 

Now,  if  his  most  pessimistic  point  of  view  will  still  grant  the 
possibility  of  so  much,  let  us  proceed  to  do  our  share  at  least 
toward  the  achievement  of  these  purposes,  and  we  shall  have 
opened  the  way  for  the  accomplishment  of  still  further  results. 

THE  MORALS  POLICE. 

To  begin  with,  I beg  leave  to  call  attention  to  certain  important 
facts  revealed  by  my  investigations,  in  which  there  is  a general 
consensus  of  agreement  in  the  practice  of  all  the  cities  I visited, 
and  in  the  views  of  all  the  persons  and  authors  I have  consulted. 

The  first  of  these  is  that,  as  far  as  safeguarding  the  public 
order,  decency,  and  health  are  concerned,  the  administration  of 
the  law  depends  upon  its  agents,  the  police,  who  come  in  direct 
contact  with  the  vice  that  flaunts  itself  on  the  streets.  I would 
therefore,  re-emphasize  the  suggestion  made  at  the  outset:  We 
must  begin  by  laboring  to  raise  the  police  system  to  a plane  of 
unimpeachable  dignity,  honor,  and  trustworthiness,  as  is  the  case 
in  Europe.  In  all  the  continental  countries,  I believe  without 
exception,  the  vice  problem  is  intrusted  to  a special  branch  of 
the  police  bureau,  called  the  morals  police  (“Sittenpolizei” — 
“Police  des  Moeurs”),  as  distinguished  from  the  criminal  police. 
“For  the  administration  of  any  system  of  control,”  says  Professor 
Ed.  R.  A.  Seligman  (“The  Social  Evil,”  p.  133),  “experience  has 
demonstrated  that  a special  body  of  police  agents  is  required. 
If  the  ordinary  police  are  permitted  to  arrest  suspected  prostitutes, 
or  to  raid  houses  of  prostitution,  the  responsibility  for  the  care  of 
public  morals  is  dissipated  and  unlimited  opportunities  for  black- 
mail created.  The  system  which  leaves  the  initiative  to  the  pri- 
vate citizen  is  inadequate.  For  the  discovery  of  the  prostitution 
of  minors,  for  the  control  of  prostitution  in  public  places  and  upon 


906  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

the  street,  a limited  body  of  agents,  selected  for  exceptional  qual- 
ities of  tact  and  integrity,  is  absolutely  essential.” 

This  expresses  in  brief  the  general  experience  of  the  European 
cities,  and  in  our  country,  both  the  New  York  “Committee  of 
Fifteen”  and  the  “Chicago  Vice  Commission”  included  the  crea- 
tion of  a morals  police  force  among  the  recommendations  on  which 
there  was  unanimous  agreement. 

VENEREAL  DISEASES. 

A second  matter  in  which  all  workers  and  thinkers  in  this  field 
coincide  is  the  necessity  of  safeguarding  the  public  health  against 
the  frightful  ravages  of  venereal  diseases.  Society  is  or  should  be 
vastly  more  interested  in  staying  this  contagion  than  even  in  the 
fight  against  tuberculosis,  diphtheria,  and  yellow  fever,  now  that 
its  direful  results  are  known  to  exceed  the  ills  of  these  maladies. 
The  false  viewpoint  of  an  ignorant  age  must,  moreover,  yield  to 
the  true  standpoint  of  our  better  knowledge.  Sexual  diseases  must 
not  be  sweepingly  condemned  as  a shame,  but  in  all  cases  as  a 
misfortune,  for  the  most  innocent  persons,  equally  with  the  guilty, 
as  we  now  know,  are  likely  to  be  subjected  to  this  contagion  as 
to  other  contagions.  Indications  point  to  a world-wide  campaign 
for  the  extermination  of  this  modern  leprosy.  As  my  investiga- 
tions show,  all  European  countries  are  taking  some  measures  in 
this  direction.  We  have  seen  that  in  some  places  venereal  diseases 
are  already  classed  with  other  contagious  diseases ; physicians 
are  obliged  to  make  reports  of  these  to  the  Board  of  Health ; treat- 
ment is  made  compulsory,  not  merely  for  prostitutes,  but  for  all 
infected  persons — men  as  well  as  women,  married  persons  as  well 
as  unmarried. 

Instead  of  letting  the  infected  person  suffer  in  secret  or  become 
the  victim  of  dangerous  secret  remedies  or  the  dupe  of  the  quack, 
every  facility  is  being  offered  for  private  examination  and  treat- 
ment, for  free  dispensary  and  hospital  service. 

PREVENTIVE  MEASURES. 

While  rescue  work  under  the  auspices  of  private  philanthropic 
and  religious  organizations  is  conducted  everywhere,  there  is  a 
general  agreement  on  the  urgency  of  preventive  measures  to  fore- 
stall, wherever  possible,  the  necessity  of  reform.  Some  intimation 
has  been  given  in  this  report  of  the  awakening,  in  educational  cir- 
cles and  among  all  religious,  moral,  and  cultural  agencies,  for  a 
world-wide  campaign  of  enlightenment  for  the  coming  generation. 

The  activities  in  Germany  are  being  paralleled  in  our  own 
country  by  the  keen  interest  of  educators  and  by  the  active  prop- 
aganda of  the  societies  for  combating  the  social  evil.  It  is  agreed 
that  ignorance  is  the  pitfall  to  a thousand  dangers  yielding  prosti- 
tution, social  disease,  mental,  physical,  and  moral  decay.  The 
Board  of  Education  of  Philadelphia  and  all  the  agencies  for  the 
enlightening  of  the  young  need  to  be  brought  into  more  active  co- 
operation with  this  great  present-day  movement  in  behalf  of  the 


Social  Evil  ijst  Foreign  Countries 


907 


better  instruction  of  our  youth  on  the  vital  matters  of  health  and 
personal  purity. 

There  is  general  agreement  that  the  stress  laid  upon  physical 
culture,  athletics,  and  sports  is  a most  sane  and  valuable  aid  in 
rearing  our  youth  to  a clean,  vigorous,  and  chaste  manhood  and 
womanhood.  In  this  respect  America  leads  and  is  the  envy  of 
the  older  nations. 

Finally,  I would  point  out  that,  as  vice  is  ultimately  a personal 
matter,  the  administration  of  the  public  welfare  can  touch  and 
control  only  those  outward  manifestations  as  infringe  on  the  com- 
mon weal.  As  for  the  rest,  there  is  need  of  an  energizing  of  the 
spiritual  forces  of  character  through  the  homes,  the  religious  and 
other  agencies  of  our  city.  In  this  summary  of  the  investigations 
herewith  reported  I have  aimed  at  searching  out  those  measures 
which  have  found  general  acceptance  abroad.  The  ripened  expe- 
rience of  the  older  communities  may  thus  offer  to  us  a basis  on 
which  to  proceed  in  meeting  the  special  needs  of  our  own  com- 
munity. I trust  that  by  this  means  some  serviceable  contribu- 
tion has  been  offered  toward  the  accomplishment  of  the  serious 
and  difficult  task  which  has  been  intrusted  to  our  hands. 

Respectfully  submitted, 

HENRY  BERKOWITZ. 


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i COLLEGES 

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PARTICIPATE 
I IN  INQUIRY 


A discussion  of  the  industrial  phase  of  the  moral 
problem,  with  many  authoritative  references,  by  Henry 
T.  Rogers,  Jr. 


NOTE. — No  feature  of  the  campaign  for  a new  moral  awaken- 
ing throughout  the  nation,  undertaken  by  your  Committee  at  the 
express  instruction  of  the  Honorable  Senate  in  its  resolutions  of 
creation,  was  more  noteworthy  than  the  interest  shown  and  the 
co-operation  given  by  faculties  and  students  in  our  schools  and  col- 
leges. For  the  period  of  three  years,  the  subjects  covered  in  the 
inquiry  have  been  frequently  debated  by  teams  in  high  schools,  imi- 
versities,  Y.  M.  C.  A.’s  and  other  forums  surrendered  to  discussion 
of  matters  of  public  concern.  Your  Committee  was  in  almost  daily 
request  for  information  and  data,  and  two  special  pamphlets  were 
prepared  and  printed  to  meet  the  demand.  The  paper  on  “The  Re- 
lation of  Low  Wages  to  Vice,”  herewith  reproduced,  was  written  by 
Mr.  Rogers  while  a student  at  Yale  College,  and  was  especially  com- 
mended by  the  faculty.  It  is  a splendid  specimen  of  the  research 
work  with  which  the  colleges  have  co-operated  with  your  Committee. 


BIBLIOGRAPHY. 


1.  Minneapolis  Vice  Commission  Report  (1911). 

2.  Report  of  the  Moral  Survey  Committee  on  the  Social  Evil  in 
Syracuse  1913. 

3.  Report  of  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission  1911. 

4.  T.  H.  Russell,  “The  Girl’s  Fight  for  a Living,”  containing 
the  testimony  before  the  Illinois  Vice  Commission  of  1913. 

5.  “The  Social  Evil.”  Report  of  the  Committee  of  Fifteen, 
New  York  City,  1902.  Revised  1912,  edited  by  E.  R.  A.  Seligman. 

6.  Anne  Marion  MacLean,  “Wage  Earning  Women.” 

7.  Elizabeth  Beardsley  Butler,  “Women  and  the  Trades.”  The 
Pittsburgh  Survey,  1907-8. 

8.  Same  author,  “Saleswomen  in  Department  Stores.”  Inves- 
tigation of  thirty-four  stores  in  Baltimore,  1909. 

9.  O.  Edward  Janney,  “The  White  Slave  Traffic  in  America.” 

10.  Reginald  Wright  Kauffman,  “The  Girl  That  Goes  Wrong.” 

11.  Abraham  Flexner,  “Prostitution  in  Europe”  (1914). 

12.  Report  of  the  Hartford  Vice  Commission,  1913. 

13.  Mrs.  Archibald  McCurdy  and  W.  N.  Willis,  “The  White 
Slave  Traffic.” 

14.  Jane  Addams,  “A  New  Conscience  and  an  Ancient  Evil.” 

15.  Scott  Nearing,  “Financing  the  Wage  Earner’s  Family”  (1914). 

16.  Same  author,  “Wages  in  the  U.  S.” 

17.  Gen.  Theodore  Bingham,  “The  Girl  that  Disappears.” 

18.  The  Appendix  to  the  Briefs  filed  on  behalf  of  respondents  in 
the  Oregon  case  of  Stettler  vs.  Industrial  Welfare  Commission  of 
the  State  of  Oregon  in  Supreme  Court,  Oregon,  October  term,  1913. 
Appendix  prepared  by  Louis  D.  Brandeis  assisted  Ey  Josephine  Gold- 
mark,  publication  secretary  National  Consumers’  League.  This  valu- 
able work,  among  others,  contains  passages  from  the  following 
authorities: 

a.  Report  on  Condition  of  Woman  and  Child  Wage  Earners  in 
the  United  States  by  the  Bureau  of  Labor.  Senate  iSocument  No. 
645. 

b.  Report  of  the  Massachusetts  Commission  on  Minimum  Wage 
Boards. 

c.  “The  Standard  of  Living  Among  the  Industrial  People  of 
America,”  by  F.  H.  Streightoff. 

d.  “The  Standard  of  Living  Among  Working  Men’s  Families.” 
by  R.  C.  Chapin. 

e.  Report  of  the  Social  Survey  Committee  of  the  Consumers’ 
League  of  Oregon,  Caroline  J.  Gleason  (1913). 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


911 


By  HENRY  T.  ROGERS,  JR. 

I am  informed  by  Mrs.  Florence  Kelley  that  the  subject  I have 
undertaken  to  discuss  is  “one  of  the  most  baffling  pursuits  open  to 
the  human  race.”  An  instance  of  the  truth  of  this  statement  was 
afforded  at  the  congress  of  social  reformers  that  met  in  Washington 
in  1913  shortly  after  the  Illinois  investigation  of  the  same  year.  A 
long  list  of  recommendations  for  remedying  the  causes  of  prostitution 
was  given  out,  including  the  tentative  suggestion  of  a minimum  wage 
for  women  in  industry.  Those  supporting  such  a recommendation 
of  course  assume  that  low  wages  and  prostitution  have  some  con- 
nection, but  the  report  of  the  proceedings  adds  “on  this  last  the 
experts  disagreed  most  violently.” 

The  data  on  this  subject  is  very  difficult  to  secure.  It  is  scattered 
through  a large  number  of  reports  and  treatises  on  prostitution  (a 
number  of  which  are  given  in  the  bibliography)  and  no  effort  seems 
to  have  been  made  to  collect  the  evidence  bearing  on  the  subject. 
As  one  work  puts  it,  “There  is  one  ghastly  investigation  still  waiting 
on  the  economist.  It  is  the  aid  to  wages  which  is  got  from  ‘the 
oldest  trade  in  the  world.’  While  I do  not  pretend  to  be  an 
“economist,”  I shall  endeavor  to  investigate  this  question  as 
thoroughly  as  space  and  time  will  permit  in  the  pages  that  follow. 

At  the  outset  it  is  necessary  to  define  the  word  prostitution. 
To  be  quite  exact,  prostitution  is  the  act  of  a woman’s  submission 
to  illicit^  intercourse  for  a money  consideration  or  its  equivalent. 
It  will  be  seen  from  this  definition  that  the  immoral  woman  who 
has  not  distinct  mercenary  motives  when  she  has  extra- conjugal 
relations  with  a man  is  not  a prostitute.  Some  economic  benefit  must 
flow  to  the  woman  because  of  her  act  if  she  is  to  be  considered  a 
prostitute.  On  the  other  hand  it  must  be  noted  that  many  women 
are  included  under  this  definition  who  are  not  generally  included  in 
the  popular  mind  when  the  word  “prostitute”  is  mentioned.  The  lay- 
man usually  thinks  of  the  prostitute  as  the  inmate  of  the  house  of 
prostitution  or  as  the  “street-walker.”  But  this  conception  is  not 
comprehensive  enough.  Dr.  Flexner^  has  enumerated  no  less  than 
nine  distinct  classes  coming  under  the  definition  of  a prostitute  as 
given  above.  However,  for  the  purposes  of  this  essay,  it  will  be 
sufficient  to  note  but  two  general  classes,  the  professional  which  in- 
cludes “house”  inmates,  “street-walkers”  and  all  who  practice  pros- 
titution exclusively  as  a means  of  livelihood  and  the  clandestine,  com- 
posed of  those  who  practice  prostitution  more  or  less  in  secret."^ 
Those  in  the  clandestine  class  usually  exercise  some  discrimination 
in  their  patrons  but  this  is  not  always  the  case.  The  latter  class 
may  include  some  professionals  since  there  are  women  who  make  a 
livelihood  entirely  from  prostitution,  who  exercise  considerable  dis- 


^ “Women’s  Work  and  Wages.  A Phase  of  Life  in  an  Industrial  City,”  by  Edward 
Cadbury,  M.  Cecile  Matheson  and  George  Shann,  T.  Fisher  Unwin,  London,  1906. 

^ It  is  necessary  to  introduce  this  word  for  otherwise  the  definition  would  include  women 
who  “marry  for  money.” 

® “Prostitution  in  Europe,”  Century  Co.,  New  York,  1914,  pp.  11-12. 

* The  vernacular  is  “on  the  side.” 


yi2  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

crimination  in  their  patrons  and  are  not  exactly  “public  women,” 
but,  in  general,  the  classes  are  fairly'  distinct  and  the  making  of  a 
distinction  is  of  the  utmost  importance,  as  will  appear  later. 

It  is  not  hard  to  define  the  limits  of  the  “professional”  class  but 
the  same  cannot  be  said  of  the  last  mentioned  group.  For  the  sake  j 

of  simplicity  in  my  discussion  I have  chosen  to  include  many  pro-  ^ 

titutes  under  the  “clandestine”  class  who  are  not  strictly  “clandestine’ 
in  practicing  their  trade.  For  instance,  many  women  who  work  at 
a legitimate  occupation  in  the  daytime,  solicit  in  the  dance  halls  in 
the  evening  in  order  to  supplement  their  earnings.^  To  be  exact,  this  ' 
class  is  semi-professional,  but  it  is  clandestine  to  the  extent  that  the 
women  often  exercise  great  care  to  prevent  their  employers  from 
discovering  their  evening  occupation,  since  some  employers  discharge 
such  girls  as  soon  as  they  find  them  out.  In  the  main  the  clandes- 
tine class  is  made  of  women  who  are  supplementing  their  legitimate 
earnings  by  “hustling  on  the  side.”  They  are  a class  quite  distinct 
from  the  professional  and  this  fact  must  be  carefully  borne  in  mind.^ 

There  are  two  ways  of  investigating  this  subject.  The  first  is 
the  deductive  which  is,  in  brief,  showing  that  economic  and  social 
conditions  are  such  that  the  irresistible  inference  from  the  facts  as 
to  these  conditions  is  that  low  wages  are  both  a direct  and  indirect 
cause  of  prostitution  of  considerable  magnitude.^ 

The  second  method  is  the  inductive  which  consists  in  an  exami- 
nation of  the  personal  histories  of  a given  number  of  prostitutes  in 
order  to  find  the  cause  of  each  woman’s  downfall.  If  but  a small 
percentage  of  the  cases  give  the  cause  as  “low  wages”  the  conclusion 
is  that  low  wages  are  a “negligible  factor”  in  prostitution ; if  a large 
percentage  give  “low  wages”  as  the  cause,  the  conclusion  is  reversed. 
This  is  the  usual  method  employed  in  order  to  arrive  at  a decision 
as  to  whether  low  wages  and  prostitution  are  connected. 

Since  I have  chosen  to  utilize  the  first  method  of  inquiry  exclu- 
sively and  to  practically  ignore  the  second,  I will  state  my  reasons 
for  so  doing  and  the  limitations  of  the  inductive  mode  of  inquir>' 
at  some  length. 

1.  The  number  of  personal  histories  available  for  study  is  not 
large  enough.  After  careful  searching  I have  been  able  to  collect 
but  five  or  six  hundred  from  the  various  reports  and  it  is  conserva- 
tively estimated  that  there  are  in  the  United  States  300,000  profes- 
sional prostitutes.®  This  estimate  does  not  include  the  clandestine 
prostitutes  who  must  be  at  least  as  numerous.^  At  any  rate  the  more 
the  field  of  inquiry  is  limited,  the  less  likely  are  conclusions  based 
on  this  limited  field  and  made  to  apply  to  the  whole  group  to  be 

“Report  of  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission,  1911. 

“See  Chicago  Report,  1911,  for  corroboration  of  my  classification. 

^ My  reasoning  is  not  a priori.  I adopted  this  method  of  inquirj-  only  after  a great  deal 
of  reading  by  which  I found  that  the  view  that  low  wages  and  prostitution  have  no  connection 
was  untenable  in  fact  and  a case  incapable  of  proof  by  this  method.  As  will  appear  in  the 
text  it  is  capable  of  “proof’  by  the  misleading  inductive  method  of  inquiry. 

“ B.  S.  Steadwell,  Pres.  American  Purity  Federation.  Quoted  in  Report  Si'racuse  Moral 
Survey  Committee,  1913,  p.  66.  This  estimate  was  based  on  correspondence  and  interviews 
with  mayors,  chiefs  of  police,  “reformers”  and  ministers  in  cities  of  25,000  and  over. 

“lane  Addams  says  in  her  “New  Conscience  and  an  Ancient  Evil,”  p.  216:  “It  is  im- 
possible to  estimate  the  amount  of  clandestine  prostitution  which  the  modem  city  contains 
but  there  is  no  doubt  but  the  growth  of  the  social  evil  lies  in  that  direction.”  Dr.  Fle.xner 
is  also  of  the  opinion  that  the  class  must  be  very  large.  Op.  cit.  Chaps.  I and  II. 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


913 


accurate.  The  number  of  personal  histories  available  even  allowing 
; for  similarity  in  conditions  is  hopelessly  inadequate  to  justify  general 
conclusions  based  on  them,  and  made  to  apply  to  prostitutes  as  a 
group.  ^ 

; 2.  No  attempt  is  made  to  distinguish  the  prostitutes  who  have 

I never  been  employed  as  wage-earners  from  those  who  have  been  so 
I employed.  Suppose  a commission  investigates  the  personal  histories 
! of  fifty  prostitutes,  twenty-fiye  of  whom  have  never  been  wage- 
I earners,  finds  that  a very  few  of  the  fifty  went  wrong  because  of  low 
! wages. 2 Can  it,  then,  be  concluded  that  low  wages  are  “negligible 
factor?”^ 

3.  A large  number  of  what  I have  called  the  clandestine  class — 
namely,  those  who  are  really  clandestine  and  absolutely  secret  in 
their  practices  are  obviously  excluded  from  consideration.  Conclu- 
I sions  derived  from  data  on  known  prostitutes  are  made  to  apply  to 
' unknown  prostitutes. 

. 4.  It  is  impossible  to  put  down  the  cause  of  a prostitute’s  down- 

' fall  in  a few  words.  The  reports  may  have  nicely  tabulated  histories 
of  fifty  to  a hundred  cases  studied  and  under  the  heading  “Causes  of 
Downfall”  put  down  laconically  “seduced,”  “no  education,”  and  so  on, 
but  every  thoughtful  investigator  of  the  subject  agrees  that  the  causes 
of  an  individual  girl’s  downfall  are  complex  and  varied.  Low  wages 
may  be  only  one  cause  and  yet  they  may  be  the  decisive  cause.  Pros- 
titutes cannot  be  divided  into  two  classes,  those  who  go  wrong  be- 
cause of  low  wages,  and  those  who  do  not.  It  is  necessary  to  trace 
i the  malign  and  subtle  influence  of  low  wages  in  its  many  sides  of  a 
girl’s  life  and  to  determine  what  effect  low  wages  have  had  in  pro- 
: ducing  causes  which  lead  to  the  girl’s  ruin.  The  girl  herself  is  often 
I not  aware  of  the  various  factors  which  pushed  her  along  the  down- 
I ward  path.'*  Thus  we  find  Dr.  Flexner  saying  “Animated  by  a 
natural  desire  to  excuse  their  conduct  as  most  human  beings  are, 
^ the  direct  pressure  of  need  is  rarely  assigned  by  prostitutes  in  excul- 
l;  pation  of  their  conduct.”^ 

j 5.  Where  information  as  to  causes  of  downfall  is  obtained  from 
• the  prostitute  herself — as  in  most  cases  it  is — the  prostitute  is  not 
!|  only  likely  to  be  “hazy”  as  to  the  real  cause  of  her  downfall,  as  noted 
above,  but  she  is  likely  to  be  untruthful.  In  spite  of  Dr.  Flexner’s 
opinion  as  to  the  girl’s  unwillingness  to  state  need  as  the  cause,  so 
many  prostitutes  testifying  before  the  Illinois  Commission  stated  low 
, wages  as  the  cause  of  their  downfall  that  a minister^  “protested  to 
the  Commission  against  its  listening  to  the  words  of  fallen  women.” 

^ Henry  Buckle  in  his  “History  of  Civilization  in  England*'  has  demonstrated  the  neces- 
sity of  comprehensive  information  as  a basis  for  drawing  general  conclusions  applying  to 
society. 

2 This  was  precisely  what  was  done  in  Syracuse,  1913. 

® The  U.  S.  1911  Bureau  Labor  Report  says,  “Out  of  100  cases  investigated  in  Boston 
only  four  were  found  where  low  wages  were  a direct  cause  of  the  downfall."  (Boldface 
mine.) 

^ The  answers  given  by  fallen  girls  as  to  why  they  went  wrong  show  this.  Many  prosti- 
tutes told  Jane  Addams,  op.  cit.  (o.  73),  “I  was  too  tired  to  care.”  “I  was  dog-tired  and 
just  went  with  him,”  and  so  on.  The  reports  would  not  put  down  the  cause  of  these^  girls' 
downfall  as  “low  wages” ; yet  low  wages  were  the  cause  in  these  cases,  as  will  hereinafter 
, appear. 

® Op.  cit.  p.  83. 

® Rev.  Barlow  C.  Carpenter  of  Peoria,  111. 


914  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

However,  there  seems  to  be  some  ground  for  the  assertion  that  “low 
wages  are  the  easiest  thing  to  blame  it  on.”^  Even  such  a sympathetic 
interpreter  of  the  “fallen  woman”  as  Jane  Addams  admits  that  she 
is  likely  to  be  untruthful  when  stating  the  causes  of  her  downfall.® 
It  is  best  to  recognize  that  we  have  here  another  limitation  on  the 
inductive  method  of  inquiry. 

We  are  driven  to  the  conclusion  that  the  deductive  is  the  only 
method  of  inquiry  capable  of  being  utilized.  By  this  method  I pro- 
pose to  establish  the  following  propositions  in  the  pages  that  follow ; 

1.  That  there  are  a great  many  women  wage-earners  in  the 
industrial  world  who  are  either  self-supporting  or  who  have  others 
dependent  on  them.  In  short  that  a large  number  must  depend 
entirely  on  the  wages  they  receive  for  their  labor. 

2.  That  the  wages  paid  to  a vast  majority  of  these  self-supporting 
workers  is  verj^  appreciably  below  the  wage  necessarj"  for  the  main- 
tenance of  a minimum  standard  of  living. 

3.  That  low  wages  produce  a great  variety  of  causes  which 
undermine  the  health,  morals  and  powers  of  resistance  to  temptation 
of  the  wage-worker. 

4.  That  great  pressure  is  continually  being  brought  upon  women 
wage-earners  by  agents  of  the  prostitution  business^  and  by  others 
either  to  enter  a life  of  professional  prostitution  or  to  supplement 
their  meager  earnings  by  clandestine  prostitution. 

5.  That  this  pressure  is  almost  invariably  brought  to  bear  on 
those  girls  who  (because  of  the  above-mentioned  factors)  are  least 
able  to  resist  it. 

6.  That  the  irresistible  conclusion  from  these  five  factors  is 
that  many  girls  are  bound  to  succumb  and  become  prostitutes. 

1.  NUMBER  OF  SELF-SUPPORTING  WOMEN. 

We  must  first  arrive  at  an  estimate  as  to  the  number  of  wage- 
earning women  in  the  country  who  are  subject  to  the  industrial  con- 
ditions described  hereinafter.  Those  engaged  in  professional  service, 
as  teachers,  actresses,  etc.,  in  domestic  service  and  in  agricultural  pur- 
suits must  be  excluded — principally  because  they  are  not  paid  the 
low  wages  which  obtain  in  the  other  occupations. 

The  census  of  1900  gives  the  following  proportions  of  the  total 
number  of  female  bread-wdnners  in  various  pursuits.^ 


Occupation.  Per  Cent. 

1.  Agricultural  pursuits,  15.9 

2.  Professional  service,  8.9 

3.  Domestic  and  personal  service,  40.4 

4.  Trade  and  transportation. 


’ This  was  the  language  of  one  Chicago  employer  before  the  Illinois  Commission,  1913, 
and  the  substance  of  the  opinion  of  all  of  the  employers. 

® That  prostitutes  have  in  many  cases  lost  any  sense  of  the  value  of  truthfulness  is  not 
surprising  in  view  of  the  degrading  life  they  lead. 

° That  prostitution  is  a “business”  will  be  explained  hereinafter. 

^ These  figures  taken  from  tables  in  the  appendix  to  Anna  Marion  MacLean’s  “W  age- 
Earning  Women.” 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


915 


Saleswomen 

Clerks 

Bookkeepers 

Telegraph  and  telephone  operators,  etc.,  10.0 
5.  Manufacturing  and  mechanical  pursuits. 

Bookbinders 

Boot  and  shoe  makers 

Box  makers  (paper) 

Confectioners 

Textile  mill  operatives 

Textile  workers,  etc.,  24.8 

100.0 

The  census  gives  4,833,630  women  engaged  in  the  above  occupa- 
tions. Excluding  the  first  three  classes,  we  have  about  1,750,000 
women  who  are  affected  by  the  various  factors  to  be  described.  Doubt- 
less the  actual  number  so  affected  today  is  much  larger  for  three 
reasons : 

1.  Women  have  been  entering  the  industrial  world  at  an  ever 
increasing  rate  in  the  last  fourteen  years.  If,  for  the  sake  of  con- 
servatism we  assume  that  the  number  of  women  in  industry  has  in- 
creased only  as  fast  as  the  population  (i.  e.,  at  the  rate  of  2.1  per  cent 
per  year)  our  estimate  is  increased  to  2,275,000. 

2.  The  census  includes  “waitresses”  in  its  enumeration  of  those 
engaged  in  “Domestic  and  Personal  Service.”  If  the  census  means 
to  include  under  “waitresses”  those  serving  in  restaurants  and  hotels 
then  our  estimate  must  be  still  further  increased  for  these  women  are 
assuredly  within  the  scope  of  this  investigation. 

3.  It  is  extremely  doubtful  if  the  percentage  of  domestic  ser- 
vants is  as  high  now  as  it  was  in  1900.  For  one  reason  or  another 
women  greatly  prefer  industrial  and  mercantile  pursuits  to  domestic 
service  and  will  rarely  become  domestics  when  some  other  occupation 
is  available.  If  this  be  true  it  is.  evidence  that  our  estimate  must  be 
again  increased. 

Altogether  we  are  fairly  safe  in  assuming  that  two  million  and  a 
half  women  are  affected  by  the  industrial  and  social  conditions  herein 
described. 

How  many  of  these  women  are  “adrift,”  i.  e.,  not  living  at  home 
and  dependent  on  their  own  earnings  for  support?  We  have  no 
comprehensive  census  available  on  this  point  but  reports  from  different 
parts  of  the  country  indicate  that  about  twenty  per  cent  are  “adrift.” 
It  was  found  that  16  per  cent  of  Chicago’s  100,000  working  women 
are  “adrift.”  Other  investigations  place  the  proportion  at  about  the 
same  figure. ^ Why,  then,  do  I estimate  that  the  proportion  is  really 
about  twenty  per  cent?  For  the  reasons  that  employers  admit  that 


^ Miss  Butler  found  17%  of  the  women  working  in  34  Baltimore  department  stores  were 
“adrift.”  Why  is  the  proportion  likely  to  be  less  in  New  York,  in  Boston,  in  Philadelphia, 
or  any  other  city? 


916  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

the  wages  they  pay  are  supplementary^  and  that  they  express  a pref- 
erence for  girls  “living  at  home  the  competition  for  jobs  is  so  keen^ 
that  a girl  “adrift”  will  often  say  she  is  “living  at  home”  in  order  to 
get  the  job.  Much  of  the  information  as  to  the  number  of  girls 
“adrift”  comes  from  statistics  furnished  by  employers.  The  obvious 
inference  is  that  sixteen  per  cent  is  too  low  a figure  for  the  proportion 
of  girls  “adrift.” 

Obviously  these  girls  who  are  “adrift”  have  no  way  of  supplement- 
ing their  wages— i.  e.,  legitimately.  Are  we  to  assume  that  the  re- 
maining four-fifths  are  getting  economic  assistance  by  virtue  of  their 
residence  “at  home?”  Let  us  see.  First  of  all  let  us  dispose  of  the  > 
convenient  academic  doctrine  that  women  work  for  “pin-money.”  ’ 
Now,  girls  “adrift”  don’t  work  for  “pin-money” — they  need  more  than 
that  to  live  on.  But  it  is  a common  assumption  that  those  “living 
at  home”  do.  The  government  report  of  1911  found  that  “of  women 
who  work  and  live  at  home  87.7  per  cent  of  the  females  of  all  cities  ( 
give  all  their  earnings  to  the  family  (p.  393).  This  finding  is  backed  . 
up  by  other  investigations  in  Connecticut,  in  Massachusetts,  in  New 
York  and  elsewhere.  We  may  take  it  as  authoritative  that  women 
are  working  from  economic  compulsion.^  This  fact  becomes  the  j 
more  evident  when  we  consider  the  extent  of  poverty  in  the  countr}'.^ 
Prof.  Nearing®  says  “the  available  data  indicate  that  a man,  wife  and 
three  children  cannot  maintain  a fair  standard  of  living  in  the  industrial 
towns  of  Eastern  U.  S.  on  an  amount  less  than  $700.00  a year.  In  • 
the  large  cities  where  rents  are  higher  this  amount  must  be  increased 
by  at  least  $100.00.  Let  us  look  at  the  wages  received  by  male  wage- 
earners.^ 

Per  cent  adult  males. 


Incomes  under  $200.00  None 

Incomes  under  325.00  One-tenth 

Incomes  under  500.00  One-half 

Incomes  under  600.00  Three-quarters 

Incomes  under  800.00  Nine-tenths 


® The  evidence  on  this  point  is  overwhelming.  Miss  Butler  in  the  Pittsburgh  Survey  ' 
(“Women  and  the  Trades”)  speaks  of  the  “widespread  . . . reliance  of  merchants  and  \ 

manufacturers  on  the  ability  of  women  employes  to  find  a source  of  support  in  their  families  I 

and  friends.”  Chicago  employers  testifying  in  1913  before  the  Illinois  Commission  almost  I 

all  said  that  their  employes  were  only  working  for  “pin  money,”  that  they  lived  at  home.  i 

For  instance,  Mr.  Julius  Rosenwald,  president  of  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.,  said  that  practically 
all  the  1,465  women  in  his  store  getting  less  than  $8.00  a week  were  living  with  parents,  but  ( 

so  far  as  he  knew,  however,  no  investigation  was  made  of  the  statements  of  applicants  for  < 

positions. 

‘The  Minneapolis  Vice  Commission  of  1911  says  in  its  report  (p.  127):  . . . “Em- 

ployers  do  give  preference  to  this  class  of  girl  labor  (the  partially-support  girls)  apparently  i 
for  no  other  reason  than  the  desire  to  get  service  on  the  cheapest  possible  terms.” 

® It  was  found  in  Chicago  that  many  employers  keep  waiting  lists.  Miss  Butler  in  her 
Pittsburgh  investigation  asked  a confectioner,  “Why  don’t  you  advertise  in  the  papers  when 
you  want  a girl?”  The  answer  was,  “All  I have  to  do  is  put  out  a sign  and  I get  all  the 
help  I want.”  And  confectioners  are  among  the  most  poorly  paid  women  workers  in  th» 

country  (see  U.  S.  1911  Report  on  Condition  of  Women  and  Child  Wage-Earners,  pp.  135-6). 

® Annie  Marion  MacLean  voices  the  general  conclusion  of  the  authorities  when  she  says 
in  her  “Wage-Earning  Women”  (pp.  176-7),  “The  necessity  for  self-support  becomes  the  i 
dominant  factor  in  driving  the  young  girl  out  to  seek  employment.” 

' Cf.  Robert  Hunter’s  “Poverty,”  p.  25.  Mr.  Hunter  says,  “One  in  every  ten  persons  ' 

who  die  in  New  York  is  buried  in  Potter’s  field — in  spite  of  the  fact  that  even  the  poorest 
people  have  friends,  politicians  and  others  to  save  them  from  this  disgrace  and  a poor  person 
will  resort  to  ."'Imost  any  means  in  order  to  prevent  a member  of  his  or  her  family  having  a 
pauper  burial.” 

* Scott  Nearing,  “Financing  the  Wage  Earner’s  Family,”  p.  97. 

® Scott  Nearing,  “Wages  in  the  United  States,”  p.  214. 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry  917 

An  allowance  is  made  here  for  unemployment  of  20  per  cent  of 
the  wage. 

It  is  not  now  evident  that  it  is  the  necessity  of  increasing  the  family 
budget  or  of  self-support  rather  than  the  desire  for  “pin-money”  that 
drives  women  into  the  industrial  world? 

We  now  come  to  the  very  interesting  question  “How  many  female 
bread  winners  are  unable  to  secure  financial  assistance  at  home  and 
are  therefore  on  the  same  footing  with  girls  ‘adrift?’”  Often  as 
Miss  Butler^  says,  “That  a girl  is  one  of  a family  group  is  quite  as 
likely  to  indicate  that  she  is  chief  bread  winner,  as  that  her  family 
is  her  chief  bulwark  against  the  world.”  It  has  been  estimated  that 

30.000  men  are  killed  by  industrial  accidents  each  year  and  probably 

600.000  are  seriously  injured.^  These  accidents  happen  to  men  in 
the  prime  of  life.  Sixty-three  in  each  100  fatal  accidents  occurred  to 
persons  under  45.^  As  has  been  well  said,  “industry  offers  the  work- 
ing man  an  opportunity  to  earn  a living  subject  to  the  caprice  of  over- 
work, sickness,  new  machinery,  individual  shutdowns  and  general  sus- 
pension of  industrial  activity”^* * — to  say  nothing  of  accidents.  At  least 

75.000  die  every  year  from  tuberculosis  and  the  “white  plague”  does 
not  spare  those  who  may  happen  to  be  chief  bread-winner  of  a family. 
Miss  Butler^  says,  “The  economic  position  of  the  widow  is  often  more 
difficult  than  that  of  the  unmarried  woman  away  from  home.  The 
latter  can  sometimes  hold  out  for  a few  years  * * * but  when  the 
widow  has  children  to  care  for,  and  when  no  one  of  the  family  group 
is  earning  enough  to  support  the  others  * * * not  infrequently  the 
family  tie  is  of  slight  help.”  The  Chicago  Commission®  found  that 
many  of  the  women  frequenting  the  disorderly  saloons  of  the  city 
had  been  left  without  support,  and  being  incapable  of  earning  a living 
in  the  industrial  world  they  finally  resorted  to  the  saloon  as  an  avenue 
to  money-making.  Miss  Butler®  found  many  girls  working  in  Balti- 
more department  stores  “to  whom  the  family  tie  means  an  additional 
burden^  and  many  more  who  with  family  ties  and  friends  are  yet 
dependent  upon  themselves  for  support.”  There  is  no  way  of  telling 
how  many  women  there  are  who  are  living  at  home  and  are  notwith- 
standing this  fact  entirely  dependent  on  their  own  earnings.^  In  view 
of  the  above  mentioned  factors  the  number  must  be  large. 

I think  we  are  safe  in  assuming  that  anywhere  from  one-quarter 


' Butler,  op.  cit.,  p.  346. 

” The  ratio  of  fatal  to  non-fatal  accidents  in  New  York  State,  England  and  Germany  is 
about  5 to  95.  That  is.  5%  of  all  accidents  were  fatal. — Scott  Nearing,  “Financing  the  Wage 
Earner’s  Family,”  p.  24. 

® Nearing,  “Financing  the  Wage  Earner’s  Family,”  p.  25. 

^ Ibid.,  p.  30. 

® Butler,  op.  cit.,  p.  305  (Baltimore). 

® Op.  cit.,  p.  127. 

* Butler,  op.  cit.,  p.  305  (Baltimore). 

“ U.  S.  Report  (1911)  found  in  St.  Louis  that  “Only  75%  of  the  home  store  girls  and 
53%  of  the  home  factory  visited,  had  both  parents  living.  The  largest  number  of  the  re- 
maining 25%  and  47%  are  living  with  mothers  of  whom  they  are  the  chief  support. 

^ Mary  Van  Kleeck  says  in  “Women  and  the  Bookbinding  Trade”  (Russell  Sage  Foun- 
dation, New  York,  1913),  “Surprising  indeed  is  the_  complacency  with  which  many  persons 
regard  the  low  wages  of  working  women.  They  believe  that  the  problem  concerns  only  the 
welfare  of  the  individual  girl  and  that  if  she  can  live  at  home,  merely  supplementing  the 
fantily  income,  her  scanty  earnings  need  cause  no  concern.  Such  easy-going  thinking 
ignores  the  fact  that  . . . the  low  wages  of  women  are  a prime  cause  of  poverty,  pre- 

venting wholesome  and  decent  living  in  thousands  of  families  which  depend  wholly  or  in 
part  upon  women’s  earnings,”  MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  19. 


918  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

to  one-third  of  the  women  workers  are  self-supporting  or  a total  of 
around  800,000  in  round  numbers. 

2.  WAGES  PAID  TO  SELF-SUPPORTING  WOMEN  AND 
THE  STANDARD  OF  LIVING. 

The  Federal  census  of  Manufacturers,  1905,  reports  that  of  588,599 
women  wage-earners  sixteen  years  of  age  and  over  7.5  per  cent  got 
less  than  $3.00  a week,  33.5  per  cent  got  less  than  $5.00  a week,  66.3 
per  cent  less  than  $7.00  a week  and  91.7  per  cent  less  than  $10.00  a 
week. 

Prof.  Nearing  in  his  painstaking  work  “Wages  in  the  United 
States”  estimates  that  3/5  of  the  women  in  industry  get  less  than  $8.00 
a week  (p.  211-12). 

Miss  MacLean^  found  that  the  women  in  the  shoe-making  industry 
in  Lynn  (in  which  place  are  located  one-third  of  the  36,490  women  in 
this  industry)  got  an  average  wage  a “good  deal”  under  $8.00. 

The  Chicago  Vice  Commission  found  that  $6.00  a week  was  the 
average  wage  in  mercantile  establishments  of  that  city,  a finding  corro- 
borated by  the  Illinois  Commission  two  years  later. 

In  the  silk  industry  of  New  Jersey  women  receive  an  average  of 
$5.00  a week  for  spinning,  $7.50  for  winding,  $6.00  for  warping,  $6.00 
for  picking,  $10.00  for  weaving,  $3.50  for  lacing,  $3.50  for  cutting 
In  the  pottery  industry  of  the  same  state  the  above  wages  are 
paralleled."^ 

Chart  of  wages  of  4,048  women  in  34  Baltimore  stores — Butler  op.  cit.  (Balti- 
more) pg.  114. 


Wage  I Number  of  Women 


O 

i-O 

o 

o 

o 

lO 

1 200 

[ 250 

008 

O 

lO 

CO 

o 

o 

450 

500 

550 

600 

650 

700 

750 

o 

o 

GO 

850 

006 

950 

0001 

10.50 

Zl. 

o 

2.00 

- 

- 

2.00-  3.00 

- 

1 

3.00-  4.00 

- 

- 

4.00-  5.00 

1 

5.00-  6.00 

- 

6.00-  7.00 

- 

7.00-  8.00 

- 

- 

8.00-25.00 

- 

1 

i 

2 The  Massachusetts  Commission  on  Minimum  Wage  Boards  says  (p.  134) : “In  gen- 
eral one  fact  stands  clear:  throughout  the  cities  of  the  state  about  one-quarter  of  women 
workers  in  stores  are  dependent  on  their  own  resources.”  It  does  not  appear  that  the  cases 
of  those  in  mercantile  pursuits  are  exceptional. 

Miss  MacLean  says  (op.  cit.,  p.  78)  that  the  girls  working  in  the  New  Jersey  silk  mills 
are  “young  women  who  must  take  care  of  themselves  and  frequently  help  to  bear  family  bur- 
dens as  well.” 

® MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  19. 

* MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  78  ff. 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


919 


The  same  wages  obtain  in  western  states  like  Iowa  and  Michigan. ^ 

I have  a great  deal  of  data  for  many  localities  and  for  different  in- 
dustries which  further  back  up  the  above.®  The  chart  given  on  page 
920  gives  a good  idea  of  the  way  women’s  wages  run  all  over  the 
country.  As  Miss  MacLean  says,  “Every  establishment  can  point  ex- 
ultingly  to  examples  of  women  earning  anywhere  from  $5.00  to  $25.00 
or  more  a week” — but  the  exultation  of  the  investigator  is  not  aroused 
when  he  notes  from  his  chart  that  the  vast  majority  get  nearer  $3.00 
than  $30.00.^ 

Now  the  wages  stated  on  page  918  are  all  nominal.  We  haye  no 
assurance  that  these  figures  even  for  nominal  wages  are  correct  where 
the  amount  are  furnished  by  the  employers  who  of  course  have  an  ob- 
ject in  placing  the  figure  as  high  as  possible.  Why,  for  instance,  should 
the  following  situation  obtain?  The  Oregon  investigation  of  1913 
found  (p.  26}  “a  rule  existing,  written  or  unwritten,  in  all  the  larger 
stores  is  that  girls  must  not  tell  others  what  wage  they  are  getting. 
Divulging  this  information  has  resulted  in  instant  dismissal.  One  firm 
goes  so  far  as  to  require  a signed  promise  from  the  girl  that  she  will 
not  tell  any  other  employe  her  wage.”  Evidently  if  any  information 
as  to  wages  leaks  out  the  employers  want  to  oversee  the  process  for 
reasons  best  known  to  themselves.  Miss  MacLean* *  found  employers, 
especially  merchants,  very  “sensitive”  on  the  question  of  wages.  She 
found  the  wages  quoted  by  managers  (in  the  clothing  factories) 
somewhat  higher  than  those  vouched  for  by  employes.®  “He  gives  the 
sum  the  girl  could  possibly  earn  provided  the  supply  of  work  is  con- 
stant. The  actual  earnings  are  far  below  this.  Delays  are  likely  to 
occur  and  detract  from  earnings  which  are  by  piece.” 

But  let  us  give  employers  the  benefit  of  the  doubt.  Are  the  figures 
quoted  those  for  actual  wages  received?  Unfortunately  they  are  not. 
No  allowance  has  been  made  for  unemployment.  Miss  MacLean^ 
says,  “All  averages  of  wages  are  deceptive  and  need  to  be  interpreted 
in  terms  of  actual  time  employed  during  fifty-two  weeks  in  the  year. 
It  is  the  exceptional  wage-earning  woman  who  has  uninterrupted 
employment.”  The  Chicago  Commission^  found  that  but  few  of  the 
girls  in  the  suit,  cloak  and  millinery  departments  of  the  stores,  even 
those  who  make  as  high  as  $15.00  a week,  are  assured  of  a permanent 
position.  In  Baltimore*  “some  stores  far  from  holding  to  the  principle 
that  a department  earns  a certain  percentage  of  what  it  sells,  carry  on 
a sort  of  guerilla  warfare  aaginst  the  payroll,  displacing  old  em- 
ployes by  new  and  low  paid  employes  and  so  far  as  they  can,  holding 
- all  departments  to  a common  minimum.”  Miss  MacLean  qualifies 

Ibid.,  p.  85  ff. 

0 MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  85  ff. 

’ Good  instances  of  single  localities  are  Pittsburgh,  where  of  32,185  women  workers, 
60.83%  earned  $3.00  to  $7.00  a week,  20.85%  earned  $7.00  to  $8.00  a week.  (Butler,  Pitts- 
burgh, op.  cit.,  p.  338.) 

In  New  York  City  the  second^  report  of  the  New  York  Factory  Investigating  Commit- 
tee, 1913,  states  that  “the  proportion  of  those  earning  less  than  $7.00  was  44%.  In  Port- 
land, Oregon,  3/5  of  the  women  employed  in  industry  get  less  than  the  minimum  subsis- 
tence level,  $10.00.  (Oregon  Inves.,  1913,  op.  cit.,  p.  6.) 

® Op.  cit.,  pp.  63-67. 

* Ibid.,  p.  34. 

^ Ibid.,  pp.  176-7. 

^ Op.  cit.,  p.  207. 

® MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  111. 


920  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

% 

her  figures  already  quoted  as  to  wages  in  the  potter}^  industry  by  the 
statement  “This  takes  no  account  of  slack  seasons.”  Similarly  Prof. 
Nearing  says  regarding  his  figures,  “the  deduction  for  unemployment 
not  made  here  should  be  much  greater  than  in  the  case  of  men  owing 
to  the  casual  unskilled  character  of  the  work  done  by  most  women.” 
The  difference  between  unemployment  as  affecting  men  and  women 
is  well  shown  by  this  chart  of  the  length  of  time  workers  of  both  sexes 
were  employed  in  34  Baltimore  stores 


Graph  showing  seasonal  variations  in  numbers  of  men  and  women  employees  in 
.34  Baltimore  stores.  Butler  (op.  cit.)  pg.  88. 


Number 

Employed 

January 

February 

March 

April 

May 

June 

' — 1 

August 

September 

October 

November 

December 

5,000 

1 

5.5.38 

4,000 

1 

4500 

1 

1 

45 

00 

Women 

3,000 

33 

10 

33 

10 

^5 

2,000 

20 

63 

20 

63 

1 

1 

Men 

1,000 

20 

11 

Miss  MacLean  estimates  the  average  nominal  wage  of  women 
workers  at  $8.00  a week.  She  adds  “possibly  for  52  weeks  in  the 
year  it  is  nearer  $6.00.” 

In  mercantile  houses  saleswomen  are  laid,  off  from  two  to  six 
weeks.  This  condition  was  found  in  Baltimore,  Pittsburgh  and  Chi- 
cago and  is  undoubtedl)^  general. 

Besides  unemployment  the  women  in  some  industries,  particularly 
those  in  stores,  are  subject  to  fining  sytems  which  still  further  reduce 
their  small  wages.  Of  this  the  Chicago  Vice  Commission  says  (p.  206) 
“Another  method  used  by  certain  department  stores  under  guise  of 
‘maintaining  discipline’  is  the  fining  system.  For  ever}'  mistake  an 
employe  makes,  for  ever}^  moment  they  are  late  in  their  places  there 
is  a regulated  system  of  fines.  These  natural  and  often  unavoidable 
losses  are  watched  and  recorded  and  the  amounts  deducted  from  the 
weekly  salary.” 

Without  considering  the  factors  of  unemployment  and  fining  it 
is  seen  that  the  average  wage  paid  to  the  vast  majority  of  women 
wage-earners  is  certainly  below  $7.00.  We  have  not  considered  loss 
of  wages  through  sickness.  Unlike  the  salaried  employe  the  wage- 
earner’s  pay  is  docked  for  absences  due  to  sickness  and  as  we  shall 
see  when  we  consider  the  health  of  women  workers  this  factor  must 
be  one  of  no  small  importance.  But  taking  only  unemplo}'ment  and 
fining  systems  into  consideration,  we  may  be  sure  that  the  real  average 
wage  is  a good  deal  nearer  $6.()0  than  $7.00. 

The  amount  which  a wage-eanier  must  have  in  order  to  maintain 


'*  Butler,  Baltimore,  p.  88. 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


921 


a minimum  standard  of  subsistence  is  put  at  a different  figure  for 
different  parts  of  the  country. 

In  Washington  (state)  the  state  conference  on  a minimum  rate 
of  pay  for  women  placed  the  amount  at  $8.90. 

In  the  neighboring  state  of  Oregon  “$10.00  a week *  * * * is  the 
minimum  weekly  wage  that  ought  to  be  offered  to  any  self-supporting 
woman  wage-earner  in  this  city”  (Portland).^ 

In  Syracuse^  $8.00  is  given  as  a living  v/age. 

In  Milwaukee  the  figure  is  $8.90  a week.^ 

In  Chicago  $8.00  is  a minimum  subsistence.® 

In  Illinois  generally  the  same  figure  is  given  for  a minimum  sub- 
sistence.® 

In  Massachusetts  $9.00  to  $11.00  is  a “living  minimum  wage  for 
women.  (Mass.  Minimum  Wage  Commission.) 

In  Pittsburgh  Miss  Butler^  secured  the  opinion  of  working  girls, 
forewomen  in  factories,  settlement  workers,  and  club  leaders  (who 
knew  at  first  hand  what  rent,  food,  and  other  necessaries  of  life  cost 
in  different  sections  of  the  city)  on  what  constituted  a living  wage. 
“Some  declared  $7.00,  some  $8.00,  some  $10.00  but  not  one  was  willing 
to  consider  $6.00  a living  wage.” 

So  it  goes.  Wages  are  nearly  the  same  everywhere.  It  costs 
about  as  much  to  live  in  one  place  as  in  another  (with  a very  few 
exceptions).^ 

Wages  are  $6.00.  It  costs  $8.00  to  live.  Who  pays  the  difference? 
The  family?  But  we  found  that  one-q.uarter  to  one-third  of  the 
women  workers  are  self-supporting. 

The  Chicago  employers  testifying  before  the  Illinois  Commission 
in  1913  exercised  considerable  ingenuity  in  fabricating  weekly  budgets 
.consistent  with  the  wages  they  paid.  It  is  interesting  to  note  that 
they  did  not  succeed  in  getting  the  amount  necessary  for  a self-sup- 
porting girl  below  $8.00.  Maybe  their  failure  to  do  so  was  due  to 
extravagances  since  one  employer  allowed  10  cents  for  church  and 
another  25  cents  per  week  for  the  savings  bank.^ 

The  Chicago  Commission  says  of  this  $8.00  estimate  “if  * * * 
the  girl  paid  $2.50  for  her  room,  $1.00  for  laundry  and  60  cents  for 
carfare  she  would  have  less  than  50  cents  left  at  the  end  of  the  week. 
That  is  provided  she  ate  10-cent  breakfasts,  15-cent  luncheons,  and  25- 
cent  dinners.”  Of  course  this  estimate  makes  no  allowance  for 
clothes.  To  be  well  dressed  is  part  of  a working  girl’s  stock  in  trade. 
Miss  Butler  says,'*  “In  choosing  employes  for  positions  which  necessi- 
tate the  use  of  working  clothes,  employers  tend  to  give  preference  to 

® Oregon,  1913,  op.  cit. 

* Rep.  Syracuse,  1913. 

''  Report  Social  Service  Committee,  Milwaukee  Federated  Charities. 

* Chicago  Vice  Com.  Report,  Summary. 

” 111.,  1913.  Russell,  “The  Girl’s  Fight  for  a Living,”  p.  22. 

^ Op.  cit.  (Pittsburgh),  p.  346. 

^ For  instance,  it  is  generally  conceded  that  it  costs  more  to  live  in  New  York  City 
than  in  most  other  cities. 

® Russell,  in  “The  Girl’s  Fight  for  a Living,”  cites  testimony  before  the  Commission. 

^ Pittsburgh,  op.  cit.,  p.  347. 


922 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


girls  whose  street  clothes  are  trim  and  well  made. *  * * * In  every  sort 
of  position  the  clothing  of  the  applicant  is  of  increasing  importance. 
I have  seen  poorly  dressed  girls  'turned  down’  and  well  dressed  girls 
taken  for  subordinate  work  in  a thread  mill,  a position  where,  if 
anywhere,  one’s  appearance  would  seem  to  be  a secondary  matter.” 
The  cost  of  dress  is  much  greater  for  the  store  girl  than  the  factory 
girl.^  “They  have  to  make  a good  appearance  or  they  cannot  get  or 
hold  their  positions.”  One  of  the  many  very  elaborate  rules  of  de- 
partment stores  generally  conspicuous  calls  attention  of  the  em- 
ployes to  dress  requirements.  A case  is  on  record  where  a girl 
actually  purchased  twenty-four  shirt  waists  in  one  year  in  order  to  be 
‘cleanly  and  neat  in  appearance,  avoiding  extravagance  and  display’  as 
required  by  the  rules.®  Of  course  the  girl  knew  that  $5.00  waists 
would  last  longer  than  98-cent  ones  * * * but  in  her  case  she  could 
never  amass  a sum  like  $5.00,  so  she  purchased  98-cent  ones,  washed 
them  once  or  twice  and  when  they  fell  to  pieces  threw  them  away.”^ 

All  of  the  above  data  on  the  cost  of  clothing  to  the  working  girl 
is  merely  by  way  of  “showing  up”  the  absurdity  of  the  $8.00  budget 
given.  Other  $8.00  budgets,  with  the  items  juggled  around  a little, 
can  be  demolished  with  similar  ease.  But  what  the  average  wage 
working  woman  kets  is  only  $6.00  and  not  $8.00.  Quite  true.  Vith 
regard  to  a $6.00  budget  the  Chicago  Commission  asks®  “How  do 
they  exist  on  this  sum?”  And  then  adds  “It  is  impossible  to  figure 
out  on  a mathematical  basis.”  Whether  the  girl  herself  has  any  other 
basis  for  working  out  the  problem  than  a mathematical  one  does  not 
appear. 

But  why  continue  further?  It  is  evident  (and  the  authorities 
everywhere  support  this  obvious  conclusion)  that  a self-supporting 
girl  cannot  live  on  the  wages  she  receives.  What  do  these  800,000 
self-supporting  women  do  to  meet  this  dilemma?  The  answer  to  this 
question  will  appear  from  the  subsequent  chapters. 

3.  RELATION  OF  LOW  WAGES  TO  HEALTH  AND 

MORALS. 

Authorities  agree  that  the  standard  of  living  is  set  by  the  wages 
paid.^  “Since  the  earnings  are  not  adequate  for  self-support,  it  is 
apparent  that  the  standard  of  living  in  a large  number  of  cases  must 
be  depressed  below  the  level  on  which  health  and  efficiency  can  be 
maintained”^ 

“Poverty,  whether  it  be  the  result  of  a low  family  income  or  of 
insufficient  wages  for  a girl  living  for  herself  touches  the  question 
of  the  morality  in  many  ways.  * * * Its  physical  effects  open  the 
way  to  moral  dangers.  It  means  overcrowding  and  bad  sanitaiA^  con- 

® MacLean,  op.  cit.,  p.  66. 

Chicago  Vice.  Com.  and  many  other  authorities  agree  to  this. 

^ These  rules  are  almost  impossible  to  secure  for  study. 

’ Chicago  Vice  Commission,  p.  205. 

* Ibid.  Summary. 

1 Chapin,  “The  Standard  of  Living  Among  Workin.gmen’s  Families,”  pp.  248-9.  Also  see 
Brief  of  Respondents  in  Stattler  v.  Oregon  Industrial  Welfare  Commitee.  Oregon  Supr.  Ct., 
1913. 

2 Second  Report  N.  Y.  Factory  Inves.  Com.,  1913,  Appen.  IX.  Mercantile  Establish- 
ments. 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


923 


ditions  and  under  nutrition  or  mal-nutrition  and  insufficient  or  un- 
suitable clothing.”^  Let  us  consider  the  different  factors  due  to  low 
wages. 

1.  Overwork.  Women  work  long  hours'^  in  nearly  all  occupa- 
tions. The  average  is  about  ten  hours  a day,  especially  where  the 
piece  work  system  prevails.  In  stores,  even  where  a nine-hour  law 
is  on  the  statute  books,  women  work  ten  hours. ^ In  factory  work, 
even  where  the  best  conditions  prevail,  the  long  hours  and  nervous 
strain  undermine  the  health  of  the  women.  The  same  nervous  tension 
of  work  has  been  noticed  in  stores  by  investigators  where  “politeness 
is  an  iron-clad  rule.” 

Miss  Jane  Addams  says  that  girls  who  work  downtown  are  at 
a disadvantage  compared  to  factory  girls.  The  latter  work  among 
plain  people  who  refer  to  ugly  things  in  plain  language.  The  factory 
girl  sees  the  sordidness  of  immorality  in  the  poorer  quarters  of  the 
city.  “Yet  in  spite  of  all  this  corrective  knowledge  the  increasing 
nervous  energy  to  which  industrial  processes  daily  accommodate  them- 
selves and  the  speeding  up  constantly  required  of  the  operators  may 
at  any  moment  so  register  their  results  upon  the  nervous  system  of  a 
factory  girl  as  to  overcome  her  powers  of  resistance.  Many  a work- 
ing girl  at  the  end  of  a day  is  so  hysterical  and  overwrought  that  her 
mental  balance  is  plainly  disturbed.  Hundreds  of  working  girls  go 
directly  to  bed  as  soon  as  they  have  eaten  their  suppers.  They  are 
too  tired  to  read  and  often  too  tired  to  sleep.  * * * ‘I  was  too  tired  to 
care,’  T was  too  tired  to  know  what  I was  doing,’  T was  dead 
tired  and  sick  of  it  all,’  T was  dog-tired  and  just  went  with  him,’  are 
phrases  taken  from  the  lips  of  reckless®  girls  who  are  endeavoring  to 
explain  the  situation  in  which  they  find  themselves.”^ 

Many  other  authorities  could  be  cited.  It  is  evident  that  a girl 
is  weakened  morally  by  long  physical  labor. 

2.  Under  Nutrition.  As  regards  food  the  U.  S.  (1911)  Report 
(op.  cit.)  says,  “The  problem  of  getting  a sufficient  supply  of  whole- 
some food  at  a price  within  her  means  is  probably  the  most  serious 
one  that  the  woman  on  a small  wage  has  to  face.  With  nourishing 
plentiful  meals,  other  problems  become  less  serious  and  are  met  with 
comparative  ease,  but  in  an  ill-nourished  condition  courage  and  in- 
itiative wane,  perplexities  multiply  and  the  woman  loses  heart  for  the 
struggle”  (Vol.  V,  p.  40).  Of  course  it  can  be  argued  that  the  “10- 
cent  breakfasts,  15-cent  lunches  and  25-cent  dinners”  already  referred 
to  are  “nourishing  and  plentiful  meals”®  but  this  argument  would 
probably  be  furnished  by  one  who  does  not  live  on  such  a schedule  of 
meals. 

“A  woman  who  has  spent  ten  years  keeping  a lodging  house  for 

^ U.  S.  1911,  cited  Rusesll,  pp.  46-7. 

■*  Hours  and  wages  are  complementary.  For  instance,  if  the  same  sum  be  paid  for  ten 
hours’  work  in  one  industry  as  for  twelve  hours  in  another  the  latter  is  the  lower  rate. 
Hence  the  effect  of  long  hours  on  the  wage-earner  is  as  pertinent  a subject  of  inquiry  in  this 
connection  as  the  effect  of  the  actual  money  wages. 

^ Cf.  MacLean,  op.  cit.,  pp.  72-3.  Butler,  Pittsburgh,  p.  302. 

® The  reasons  for  this  “recklessness”  will  be  more  fully  explained  in  the  fifth  section. 

Jane  Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  72.  It  is  interesting  to  note  that  Miss  Addams’  information 
comes  from  reports  of  20  field  officers  of  the  Chicago  Juvenile  Protective  Association  which 
collected  personal  histories  of  nearly  a thousand  working  girls. 

* Also  cf.  Oregon  Report  (op.  cit.),  1913,  p.  61. 


924  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

factory  and  department  store  girls,  not  as  a philanthropy  but  as  a 
means  of  livelihood,  said  to  the  agent,  ‘The  girls’  stories  to  the  con- 
trary notwithstanding,  very  few  of  those  getting  their  own  meals 
have  adequate  breakfasts *  * * * in  most  cases  it  is  due  to  the  necessity 
of  making  ends  meet,  when  the  wardrobe  must  be  replenished  or 
when  additional  contributions  to  dependent  relatives  must  be  made. 
* * * ‘You  see  I am  dieting,’  said  a frail  slip  of  a department  store 
girl  as  she  held  out  her  tray  upon  which  the  cafeteria  cashier  in  the 
presence  of  the  Bureau’s  agent  put  a two-cent  check  covering  the 
cost  of  the  girl’s  lunch;  a small  dish  of  tapioca.”  The  Bureau  says 
she  is  a type  of  many  who  “diet”  to  get  new  clothes.^ 

Many  avoid  doctor’s  care  because  of  the  expense.^ 

3.  Home  Life.  Girls  “adrift”  are  often  boarding  in  private 

families  where  “close  quarters  often  destroy  all  privacy”  and  “if  there 
are  men  lodgers  in  the  house  the  entrance  to  their  room  is  sometimes 
through  the  girl’s  room  or  vice  versa.  * * * Such  conditions  * * 

cannot  help  but  blunt  a girl’s  sense  of  proper  relations  with  the  other 
sex.”^  Where  the  girl  “adrift”  boards  in  a lodging  house  she  has 
no  other  place  to  entertain  her  “gentlemen  friends”  but  her  bed-room. 
“Unfortunately  the  ‘gentlemen  friends’  are  not  always  deserving  of 
the  name.”'^ 

4.  Amusements.  But  one  other  factor  affected  by  low  wages 
remains  to  be  considered  in  this  connection ; the  effect  on  the  girl's 
recreation.  A social  worker  with  eight  years  experience  in  one  of 
the  leading  factory  centers  says,^  “Between  the  crowding  and  bad 
air,  both  at  home  and  at  their  work  and  the  kind  of  food  they  eat, 
and  the  long  hours  and  monotony  of  their  employment,  they  are  con- 
stantly in  an  abnormal  state.  They  are  feverish  and  uncomfortable. 
They  crave  with  an  intensity  we  can  hardly  realize  something  to 
make  them  forget  their  discomfort,  to  direct  their  minds  from  the 
weariness  of  their  lives.”  Most  working  girls  are  too  tired  to  read 
in  the  evening.^  Furthermore  the  girl  “adrift”  is  a prey  to  lonesome- 
ness^  and  statistics  show^  that  she  spends  more  for  recreation  than 
does  the  woman  living  at  home  who  can  rely  on  her  friends  for  a 
good  time.  So  what  does  she  do?  She  goes  to  cheap  amusement 
places  which  alone  she  can  afford  and  there  finds  temptation  on  every 
hand  when  she  is  least  able  to  resist  it. 

Low  wages  drive  a girl  to  seek  amusement  in  dangerous  dance 
halls^  after  the  same  factor  has  rendered  her  weakened  and  dispirited 
and  has  diminished  her  ability  to  resist  temptation. 

One  more  aspect  of  this  topic  should  be  noted.  It  is  the  insidious- 
ness with  which  a girl’s  character  is  undermined  by  the  factors 
described.  “A  dangerous  cynicism  regarding  the  value  of  virtue,  a 

1 U.  S.  1911,  pp.  17-18. 

2 Oregon  Report,  op.  cit.,  1913,  p.  65. 

3 U.  S..  1911,  p.  62,  Vol.  V. 

* Ibid.,  o.  62. 

5 Cited  U.  S.  (1911)  Report. 

® Oregon  Report,  op.  cit.,  1913. 

^ Miss  Addams  speaks  (op.  cit.,  p.  89)  of  the  “black  oppression,  the  instinctive  fear  ot 
solitude,  which  sends  a lonely  girl  restlessly  to  walk  the  streets  even  when  she  is  too  tired 
to  stand  and  when  her  desire  for  companionship  in  itself  constitutes  a grave  danger. 

* Oregon  Report,  Table  33. 

® For  a description  of  these  places  see  Chicago  Vice  Com.  Report. 


•'V 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


925 


j cynicism  never  so  unlovely  as  in  the  young,  sometimes  seizes  a girl 
I who  because  of  long  hours  and  overwork  has  been  unable  to  preserve 
either  her  health  or  spirits  and  has  lost  all  measure  of  joy  in 
life.  * * 

The  conclusion  from  this  chapter  must  be  that  low  wages  con- 
tribute largely  to  forming  the  causes  which  weaken  a working  girl 
physically  and  morally. 

4.  THE  PRESSURE  ON  WORKING  GIRLS  TO  BECOME 

IMMORAL. 

This  section  falls  naturally  into  two  divisions,  the  first  concerning 
; the  pressure  brought  to  bear  on  wage-earning  women  by  the  agents  of 
■I  the  business  of  prostitution  and  second,  that  brought  by  various  “gen- 
i;  tlemen”  not  connected  directly  with  prostitution  as  a business.  The 
’■  first  class  attempts  to  force  the  girl  into  a life  of  professional  prostitu- 
tion. The  second  class  attempts  to  force  her  into  clandestine  prosti- 
;|  tution. 

I 1.  That  prostitution  exists  as  a highly  organized  commercialized 
^1  business  is  admitted  by  all  the  authorities. ^ The  profits  from  prostitu- 
tion are  simply  beyond  belief.  The  Chicago  Commission  is  the  only 
investigating  body  that  has  made  any  serious  attempt  to  get  the  figures 
:]  and  the  result  is  here  shown  (page  113). 


Rentals  of  property  and  profits  of  keepers  and  inmates.  . . .$  8,476,689 

Sale  of  liquor,  disorderly  saloons  only 4,307,000 

Sale  of  liquor  in  “houses,”  flats,  and  profits  inmates  on 
. commission  2,915,760 


$15,699,499 

The  Commission  admits  that  the  profits  are  enhanced  in  Chicago 
due  to  the  “stranger  within  the  gates,”  but  even  if  we  make  allowance 
for  this  fact,  have  we  any  reason  to  think  that  the  profits  in  other 
cities — even  those  which  do  not  have  a large  transient  population  like 
New  York,  San  Francisco,  Boston,  etc.,  are  very  much  less  large  in 
proportion  to  their  size?  Anyone  who  examines  the  estimates  of  emi- 
nent medical  authorities  as  to  the  prevalence  of  venereal  disease  among 
men  (85%  at  some  time  infected  either  with  syphillis  or  gonorrhea) 
and  reflects  that  these  diseases  are  almost  invariably  contracted  by  the 
man  in  illegitimate  intercourse,  i.  e.  while  he  is  a patron  of  the  pros- 
titute^ can  hardly  deny  that  prostitution  is  a mighty  business,  a profit- 
making enterprise  like  any  other  branch  of  industry.'^  Now,  ordinary 
businesses,  if  they  wish  to  succeed,  must  advertise,  they  must  have 
salesmen  on  the  road  to  drum  up  trade,  they  must  stimulate  the  de- 

^ Jane  Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  163. 

p Flexner,  op.  cit.,  pp.  62-3.  Bingham,  “The  Girl  that  Disappears.”  Janney,  “The 
White  Slave  Traffic  in  America.”  Report  of  the  Committee  of  Fifteen,  New  York,  1902. 
The  Chicago  Report,  i911,  says  the  first  truth  that  the  Commission  desires  to  impress  upon 
the  citizens  of  Chicago  is  the  fact  that  prostitution  in  this  city  is  a commercialized  business 
of  large  proportions,  p.  32.  Also  cf.  Addams,  op.  cit..  Preface  p.  X. 

’ It  is  true  that  “venerea!  disease”  is  the  certain  harvest  of  any  degree  of  promiscuity 
in  the  sex  relation  (Flexner,  op.  cit.,  p.  14). 

‘Concerning  the  number  of  patrons,  it  is  interesting  to  note  that  the  Chicago  Commis- 
sion found  that  1,012  inmates  of  “houses  gave  5,540,700  services  per  annum.”  (p.  71.) 


926 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


mand  for  their  product  and  furnish  the  supply  of  their  wares  to  meet 
this  demand.  The  business  of  prostitution  does  not  enjoy  the  reputa- 
tion of  being  an  exception  to  the  general  rule  of  industrial  enterprises. 
If  there  is  one  thing  that  investigation  of  the  New  York  Grand  Jur}’ 
into  the  “White  Slave”  traffic  showed,  it  was  that  prostitution  in  New 
York  City  was  a highly  organized  business,  with  veritable  clearing 
houses  for  prostitutes,^  procurers  of  prostitutes,  “exchanges”  where 
shares  in  prostitution  enterprises  can  be  bought  and  sold,  thousands 
of  “pimps”  and  so  on.  The  Grand  Jury  failed  to  find  evidence  of  a 
“trust”  that  carried  on  from  a central  head  a large  proportion  of  the 
New  York  and  the  country’s  business,  and  for  that  reason  the  “Tam- 
many” judge  who  heard  the  report  dismissed  the  whole  matter  with 
a curt  reprimand  to  the  commission  of  the  jurors  for  casting  so  many 
insinuations  against  the  fair  name  of  New  York  City.  But  the  Grand 
Jury  did  find  that  those  who  had  great  power  in  the  business  knew 
each  other  and  that  the  procurers,  pimps,^  owners  of  “houses”  and  so 
on  had  clubs  and  places  of  rendezvous  where  they  assembled  to  talk 
over  the  state  of  the  market,  the-prospects  for  better  business  and  other 
details  of  the  industry.^  I saw  a very  interesting  little  pamphlet  the 
other  day.  It  was  a directory  of  all  the  “palaces”  in  New  Orleans 
published  for  the  benefit  of  strangers  to  the  city  and  it  gave  an  alpha- 
betical list  of  all  the  prostitutes  in  the  segregated  district,  with  lavish 
descriptions  of  the  charms  of  the  inmates  of  the  several  establishments, 
pictures  of  the  houses,  of  the  rooms  in  the  houses  and  so  forth.  A 
better  piece  of  advertising  literature* *  I have  never  seen  put  out  by  any 
business  concern. 

I have  taken  pains  to  show  the  profitableness  and  extent  of  the 
prostitution  business  in  order  to  make  clear  the  importance  of 
the  fact  the  demand  for  prostitutes  exceeds  the  supply.  Miss 
Addams  says*  “Over  and  over  again  in  the  criminal  proceedings 
against  the  men  engaged  in  this  traffic,  when  questioned  as  to  their 
moti\^es,  they  have  given  the  simple  reply  ‘that  more  girls  are  needed’ 
and  that  they  ‘were  promised  big  money  for  them.^ 

We  are  dealing  here  with  a simple  economic  principle.  When  de- 
mand is  high  and  supply  low,  the  price  of  wares  goes  up,  hence  we 
have  enterprising  persons  exercising  all  the  ingenuity  they  possess  in 
their  endeavor  to  fill  the  demand. 

Are  the  working  girls  we  are  considering  in  this  treatise  considered 
eligible  as  “supply”  by  these  energetic  drummers  for  the  vice  trade? 
The  evidence  is  overwhelming  that  they  are.  The  Chicago  Commis- 
sion speaks  of  the  “direct  persistent,  often  concerted  efforts  of  the 
procurers”  who  work  “in  rest  rooms  in  department  stores  and  even 
at  the  counters  in  certain  departments,  * * * at  employment 

® Report  Chicago  Vice  Commission,  p.  104. 

® These  men  are  able  to  give  protection  to  prostitutes  because  of  political  “pulls"  and  in 
return  for  this  the  prostitute  usually  gives  her  “lover”  nearly  all  her  earnings.  In  Europe 
the  police  estimate  that  from  fifty  to  ninety  per  cent  of  the^  prostitutes  support  pimps. 
Doubtless  the  number  of  pimps  is  also  very  large  in  the  United  States. 

’ It  was  found  that  women  are  actually  bought  and  sold  in  some  of  these  places. 

* As  to  advertising,  the  Chicago  Commission  found  (see  p.  /8)  that  a Dearborn  Street 
resort  distributed  a booklet  similar  to  the  one-  described  above.  The  Commission  also  de- 
scribes other  ways  of  advertising  the  business. 

® Op.  cit.,  p.  59.  ^ 

^Afso  of  General  Bingham’s  statements  (op.  cit.,  p.  38),  “The  ‘procurer,’  or  the  ‘cadet,’ 
as  he  is  usually  known,  keeps  up  the  supply  of  women  which,  except  for  his  mdustnous 
labors,  would  fall  far  below  its  present  volume.” 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


927 


agencies,  including  those  connected  with  mercantile  and  industrial 
establishments,  and  in  many  other  ways.”  The  procurers  include 
“both  men  and  women”  bartenders,  waiters  in  saloons  and  restaurants, 
i[  managers  and  employes  in  theatres *  * * * employers,  floorwalk- 

j ers  and  inspectors  m stores  and  shops,  keepers  of  employment  offices.”^ 
j The  fact  that  pressure  is  brought  on  working  girls  is  the  only  thing 
I am  interested  in  showing  but  the  reader  may  not  understand  just 
I how  it  is  brought,  so  I shall  point  this  out  in  a few  words. 

It  must  be  remembered  that  most  of  the  girls  on  whom  pressure 
j is  brought  are  young  and  in  many  cases  little  more  than  children,  for 
prosptitution  demands  youth  for  its  perpetuation.^  Furthermore,  the 
I man  procurer  is  often  a very  gentlemanly  looking  sort  of  a person, 
i General  Bingham'^  has  described  his  activities  thus ; 

“He  picks  out  the  attractive  girl,  scrapes  up  an  acquaintance  with 
I.  her,  and,  if  he  finds  that  she  is  without  protection,  so  much  the  easier 
for  him.  He  offers  her  opportunities  for  social  enjoyment.  * * * 

He  commiserates  her  poor  circumstances  and  he  points  out  to  her 
I handsomely  dressed  women  riding  in  their  motor  cars.  He  tells  her 
that  they  were  all  wage-earners  who  discovered  an  easier  way  of 
life.  Gradually  the  poison  sinks  into  her  mind  and  soon  there  is 
another  moth  singeing  its  wings.” 

The  ways  in  which  the  “moth”  is  induced  to  “singe  its  wings”  are 
manifold.  A low  dance  hall  where  intoxicants  are  plentiful,  a^  gradual 
advance  by  the  man  from  one  stage  of  immoral  suggestion  to  the  next 
— finally  seduction  or  even  abduction  by  force.  The  sordid  tale  is 
repeated  in  so  many  cases  that  it  becomes  commonplace.  The  girl 
; who  has  been  first  tempted  by  offer  of  a good  time  is  now  a “bad 
i woman.”  She  feels  that  she  has  taken  an  irrevocable  step®  and  does 
' not  feel  the  same  abhorrence  for  prostitution  as  she  formerly  did. 

' Now  consider  that  her  capitalized  value  as  one  of  the  army  of  the 
I employed  is  $6,000,  as  a professional  prostitute  it  is  $26,000.^  Is  she 
I going  to  make  up  the  difference  between  $6.00  and  $8.00  a week  by 
i practicing  prostitution  (i.e.,  if  she  is  self-supporting)  or  not? 

2.  We  must  now  consider  the  evidence  as  to  pressure  brought 
by  the  class  of  men  whom,  for  want  of  a better  name,  we  may  designate 
as  “gentlemen  frineds,”  to  induce  working  women  to  become  clan- 
destine prostitutes.  The  existence  of  these  men  seems  to  be  assumed 
by  those  who  ought  to  be  in  a position  to  know.  “The  story  of  the 
superintendent  of  employes  who  says  to  the  girl  protesting  against  the 
small  wage,  ‘but  haven’t  you  a man  friend  to  help  support  you?’  is 
current  in  every  city.  Its  very  prevalence  is  the  best  proof  of  its 
truth.”^  But  just  to  show  the  reader  that  there  are  other  proofs  of 
its  truth  I will  cite  a case  in  point.^  A “good  girl”  was  getting  $6.00 

^ Op.  cit.,  pp.  230-1.  Other  authorities  back  this  up  unequivocally. 

® Rather  sickening  evidence  could  be  given  on  this  point  were  it  necessary  to  do  so. 

* Op.  cit.,  p.  70. 

® On  this  Jane  Addams  says  (op.  cit.,  p.  151),  “A  girl  after  a long  day’s  work  is  easily 
induced  to  believe  that  a drink  will  dispel  her  lassitude.” 

® Bingham,  op.  cit.  “In  any  event  the  girl  who  falls  rarely  attempts  to  reform.  To  her 
simple  mind  the  one  evil  act  has  completely  changed  her  life  and  character.  She  has  acted 
the  part  of  an  immoral  woman  and  she  believes  that  she  has  thereby  joined  the  ranks  of 
the  permanently  immoral.” 

’ Chicago  Vice  Commission,  p.  204.  The  average  income  of  inmates  of  “houses”  (and 
this  is  not  an  average  of  the  better  class  “houses”  alone)  was  $25.00  a week. 

“ U.  S.  Report',  1911,  op.  cit.,  Vol.  V,  p.  30. 

“ This  is  taken  from  the  report  of  Chicago  Vice  Commission,  p.  209,  and  it  is  not  an 
unusual  incident. 


928  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

a week  in  a department  store.  She  asked  for  more  money.  She  said 
she  couldn’t  live  on  that.  The  man  said,  “Can’t  you  get  somebody  to 
keep  you?” 

Miss  Butler  says,^  “Some  employers  are  generally  reputed  among 
salesgirls  to  assume  that  their  women  employes  secure  financial  back- 
ing from  outside  relationships.  * * *” 

It  is  to  be  supposed  that  single  men  would  be  the  only  ones  who 
would  attempt  to  seduce  working  girls,  but  witness  this  from  the 
Chicago  Commission’s  Report:  (pp.  208-9.) 

Married  men  are  among  the  worst  offenders  against  salesgirls  and 
use  all  sorts  of  methods  to  induce  them  to  accept  invitations  to  dine 
or  go  to  the  theatre.  These  men  come  to  the  counters  and  enter  into 
conversation  with  the  girls.  They  are  very  bold  and  aggressive  in 
their  actions  and  if  the  girls  resent  these  attentions  some  of  these  men 
actually  report  them  to  the  floorwalkers,  claiming  they  neglected  their 
business.  In  some  cases  these  complaints  have  led  to  the  discharge  of 
the  girls  in  the  store.” 

But  the  situation  is  explained  most  eloquently  and  clearly  by  one  of 
the  girls  in  a letter  written  to  the  Illinois  Commission  of  1913.^  Parts 
of  this  letter  follow : 

“You’re  looking  for  the  things  made  such  women  as  I.  Low 
wages ! Dance  halls  ! Hunger ! Cold ! They  all  helped  a bit  but  they 
did  not  turn  the  trick  themselves.  * * * Lots  of  us  * * * hit  the 
road  for  hell  because  a lot  of  blackguards  kept  hounding  us  with  their 
rotten  ‘attentions.’  God  help  the  men  and  not  us ! We’re  all  right 
when  we  start — all  we  need  is  to  be  left  alone.  There  are  hundreds 
and  hundreds  of  kids  and  sports  who  hang  around  State  Street^  and 
wait  like  wolves  for  the  tired  girls  to  leave  the  stores.  * * * Make 
the  men  good  and  the  girls  will  be  good.  Now  they  haven’t  got  a 
chance  and  they  never  will  as  long  as  the  law  smiles  at  one  and  spits 
at  the  other.” 

Can  there  be  any  doubt  about  the  existence  of  the  pressure  I have 
been  describing  in  this  section  after  such  testimony?'^ 

5.  PRESSURE  BROUGHT  TO  BEAR  ON  WEAKEST  GIRLS. 

This  section  is  a continuation  of  tlie  topics  touched  upon  in  the 
foregoing  chapter  and  is  devoted  to  establishing  the  proposition  that 
the  pressure  already  described  is  brought  to  bear  on  the  girls  least 
able  to  resist  it. 

It  seems  reasonable  to  postulate  that  procurers  will  do  their  work 
wherever  the  conditions  are  most  favorable  for  its  success  and  where 
the  least  amount  of  energy  need  be  spent.  Which  means,  to  put  it 
bluntly,  that  they  will  attempt  to  betray  the  tired  girl,  the  lonely  girl, 
the  hungry  girl,  the  underpaid  girl,  the  guileless  girl  and  the  girl 
who  is  longing  for  amusement  and  recreation. 

* Pittsburgh,  op.  cit.,  p.  306. 

2 Published  in  Russell’s  “The  Girl’s  Fight  for  a Living.” 

s In  State  Street,  Chicago,  are  many  of  the  city’s  largest  department  stores. 

■*  Miss  Addams  (op.  cit.,  p.  66)  gives  a vivid  picture  of  the  young  working  girl's 
dilemma. 

Mr  Alexander  Clelland,  former  Secretary  of  the  State  Commission  on  Immigration 
of  New  Jersey,  personally  investigated  29  agencies  and  19  of  them  were  willing  to  obtain 
women  for  immoral  purposes.  (Testimony  before  U.  S.  Committee  on  Industrial  Rela- 
tions, May,  1913.  From  N.  Y.  Call,  May  17.) 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


929 


Now,  procurers  are  not  fools.  They  are  psychologists  of  no  mean 
I order.  Witness  the  following  “Because  she  is  young  and  feminine 
her  mind  secretly  dwells  upon  a future  lover;  upon  a home  * * * 

and  yet  the  only  man  who  approaches  her  there,  acting  upon  the 
• knowledge  of  this  inner  life,  does  it  with  the  direct  intention  of 
playing  upon  it  in  order  to  despoil  her.”  The  girl  who  is  least  able  to 
resist  these  advances  is  the  very  young  girl.  The  tables  in  the  various 
reports  giving  the  age  at  which  girls  have  been  “seduced”  (usually 
by  these  “gentlemen  friends”  but  often  by  procurers)  are  instructive 
. on  this  point.  The  girl  of  fifteen  is  a frequent  vicitim  of  these  human 
, vampires.® 

It  will  be  remembered  from  the  discussion  on  wages  that  while  the 
average  wage  is  $6.00  many  girls  get  much  less.  What  girls  do  the 
procurers  and  “gentlemen  friends”  approach?  The  most  illy  paid,  of 
course.  General  Bingham^  says  “The  department  store  especially  in 
those  divisions  where  wages  are  low  is  a regular  stamping  ground  of 
1 the  cadet.” 

But  the  best  example  of  the  principle  I am  trying  to  establish  is 
I the  employment  agency.  We  have  seen  that  working  girls  are  often 
thrown  out  of  work.  We  have  seen  how  impossible  it  is  for  a self- 
supporting  girl  to  save  in  anticipation  of  a period  of  unemployment. 

- When  she  is  thown  out  of  work  the  self-supporting  woman  is  in  dire 
straits  indeed.  Do  the  procurers  know  this?  They  do,  and  they  bend 
every  energy  to  place  temptation  and  pitfalls  in  the  path  of  the  sorely- 
pressed  girl.  They  infest  the  employment  agencies.  We  even  find 
that  the  agencies  themselves  often  send  the  woman  applicants  for  jobs 
to  houses  of  postitution  as  servants.  “Once  in  these  places  surrounded 
by  indications  of  ease  and  excitement  these  girls  are  not  always  able  to 
t withstand  the  temptation  and  soon  become  regular  inmates.”® 

IS  “These  out-of-work  girls  are  found  sometimes  as  many  as  forty  or 
fifty  at  a time  in  the  rest-rooms  of  the  department  stores.  Of  course 
such  a possible  field  as  these  rest-rooms  is  not  overlooked  by  the  pro- 
curer.”^ 

“The  persuasions  of  the  procurer  are  made  alluring  when  they  offer 
I high  wages  to  a girl  who  is  out  of  a job  * ' * * because  * * * 
|l  the  girls  who  are  out  of  work  * ^ * are  easily  victimized.”^ 

We  conclude  that  the  girls  who  are  having  the  hardest  struggle 
against  poverty  are  not  spared  the  pressure  of  the  agents  of  immorality. 
On  the  contrary  these  girls  are  the  ones  on  whom  the  efforts  of  the 
human  birds  of  prey  are  concentrated. 

! 6.  CONCLUSION. 

Nothing  now  remains  but  to  draw  the  only  too  obvious  conclusions 
j from  the  foregoing  sections.  We  have  seen  that  800,000  self-support- 
I ing  women  are  paid  less  than  they  need  to  live  on,  that  they  are  weak- 

® Jane  Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  66. 

“Chicago,  1911,  op.  cit.,  p.  170  ff.  Syracuse  Report,  op.  cit..  Table  of  Personal  His- 
I tories. 

’ Op.  cit.,  p.  46. 

“Chicago,  1911,  p.  218.  The  agent  of  the  Commission  visited  28  employment  agencies, 
I 13  of  which  agreed  to  send  servants  to  a supposed  immoral  place. 

E“Jane  Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  86. 

' O.  E.  Janney,  op.  cit.,  p.  93. 

' 


930  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

ened  physically  and  morally  from  the  privations  they  are  forced  to 
endure,  that  they  are  subject  to  continual  pressure  to  supplement  their 
inadequate  earnings  by  prostiution,  be  it  clandestine  or  professional. 
Many  of  these  women  no  doubt  manage  to  hold  their  own  in  this  ter- 
rifice  battle  against  want  and  temptation.  But  there  are  others,  the 
weaker  ones — physically  and  morally — the  more  unfortunate  ones,  who, 
“unable  to  survive  longer  the  heroic  battle  against  poverty  and  self 
sacrifice”^  succumb  and  gd  down. 

By  “succumb  and  go  down”  I do  not  mean  that  all  of  those  who 
practice  prostiution  become  professionals.  The  statement  has  been 
made  that  “the  universal  tendency  is  for  these  girls  to  pass  in  a few 
years  down  the  course  of  these  grades^”  (from  clandestine  to  profes- 
sional prostitution)  but  Dr.  Flexner'^  has  shown  pretty  conclusively  that 
“while  some  are  overwhelmed  thousands  emerge”  from  the  morass  of 
unlimited  promiscuity.  In  short  there  are  thousands  who  are  clan- 
destine prostitutes  when  economic  conditions  force  them  to  become  so. 
Dr.  Flexner  shows  that  all  the  prostitutes  cannot  “die  off”  in  the  way 
they  are  popularly  supposed  to  do.  They  “disappear”  and  this  means 
in  most  cases,  as  Dr.  Flexner  shows  from  statistics  of  the  number  of 
prostitutes  annually  dropped  from  the  police  rolls,  that  they  go  back 
to  work.  In  times  of  unemployment  and  industrial  depression  the 
number  of  prostitutes  on  the  police  rolls  increases.  When  employment 
is  plentiful  the  work  for  the  police  decreases.^ 

We  have  not  good  police  rolls  in  this  country  nor  are  we  as  frank 
in  recognizing  conditions  as  they  are.  In  Europe  “in  certain  employ- 
ments it  (prostitution)  is  looked  upon  as  a regular  source  of  incidental 
income  to  women  workers.”  The  public  does  not  recognize  prostitu- 
tion in  this  manner  in  America  even  though  employers  do,  as  evidenced 
by  the  “gentleman  friend”  stories  and  other  data. 

But  once  in  a while  a glimmer  of  the  true  situation  comes  to  some 
investigating  body.  For  instance  the  Massachusetts  Minimum  Wage 
Commission  says  : “It  is  remarkable  that  more  saleswomen  do  not  tuni 
to  vice.  It  is  impossible  to  say  how  many  do.  No  estimate  whatever 
can  be  made  of  the  extent  to  which  the  workers  are  subsidized  because 
of  illicit  relations  with  one  or  two  men.  Only  a few  of  the  women  had 
the  appearance  of  prostitutes.  Women  who  are  making  a brave  fight 
against  tremendous  odds  were  many  times  more  often  in  evidence.” 
(Page  90.) 

But  utterances  like  the  above  are  rarely  emphasized  in  discussions 
of  this  topic. 

The  Bureau  of  Labor  states  “the  consensus  of  opinion  was  that  as 
a direct  and  immediate  cause  of  going  wrong  they  (low  wages)  were 
almost  a negligible  factor *  * * a statement  made  much  of  by 

those  interested  in  interpreting  this  soothing  dictum  to  mean  that  no 
rise  in  wages  is  called  for.  What  the  report  means  by  a “direct” 

2 Chicago,  1911.  Summary. 

’ Report  Hartford  Vice  Commission,  1913,  p.  65. 

* Op.  cit.,  p.  19. 

® Flexner,  op.  cit.,  p.  85.  To  quote  literally,  “Prostitution  fluctuates  with  seasonal  and 
casual  labor.”  Cf.  Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  78. 

* U.  S.,  Vol.  V,  p.  30:  “A  number  of  them  (department  store  officials)  said  to  the 
agents  with  perfect  frankness  that  the  wage  offered  did  not  permit  the  girl  to  live  honestly 
elsewhere”  (outside  the  home). 


Colleges  Participate  in  Inquiry 


931 


cause  is  that  very  few  young  unmarried  girls  walk  into  a house  of 
shame  and  say  “Here  I am;  I want  to  be  a prostitute.”^ 

The  public  does  not  bother  to  look  further  into  the  matter  so  the 
significance  of  the  Commission’s  subsequent  statements  is  overlooked. 

■ Observe  the  following : 

'i  “It  must  be  observed  that  this  relates  only  to  the  initial  wrong  step, 
i not  to  becoming  an  habitual  wrong  doer  after  the  first  error  has  been 

I made.  It  was  generally  agreed  that  * * * when  she  has  once 

; gone  wrong  * * * low  wages  * * * are  strongly  effective  in 

j deciding  her  to  adopt  a life  of  promiscuous  immorality.”®  Now  what 

i does  this  mean  looked  at  in  the  light  of  the  facts  we  have  observed? 
j Simply  this,  that  low  wages  are  really  a direct  cause  of  prostitu- 
tion; for,  what  is  it  that  subjects  a certain  class  of  girls  to  pressure 
to  supplement  their  inadequate  earnings  by  immorality?  Low  wages. 
What  is  it  that  weakens  the  girl’s  ability  to  resist?  Underfeeding,  un- 
derclothing, few  pleasures  and  so  on;  a condition  of  physical,  mental 
and  moral  weakness  resulting  from  a low  standard  of  living — which 
depends  on  what  ? Low  wages,  again.  What  is  it  that  makes  a girl 
anxious  to  marry  and  leave  her  life  of  drudgery  and  terrible  struggle 
against  poverty  and  thus  makes  her  through  this  anxiety  an  easy  prey 
for  designing  men  who  as  the  Chicago  Commission^  says  “are  so  low 
that  they  have  lost  even  a sense  of  sportsmanship  and  who  seek  as 
^ their  game  an  under-fed,  a tired,  and  a lonely  girl?”  Answer,  low 
wages.  What  is  it  that  induces  a young  girl  who  has  been  seduced^ 
to  keep  on  practising  prostitution  as  a means  to  the  attainment  of  the 
necessities  and  comforts  she  was  formerly  denied.  Once  again  the 
answer  is  low  wages. 

Those  who  do  not  have  to  personally  apply  the  remedy  they  suggest 
aver  that  a working-girl  would  rather  starve  than  sell  her  virtue.  Jane 
Addams®  says  “Out  of  my  own  experience  I am  ready  to  assert  that 
very  often  all  that  is  necessary  to  effectively  help  the  girl  who  is  on  the 
edge  of  wrong  doing  is  to  lend  her  money  for  her  board  until  she  finds 
work.  Upon  such  simple  economic  needs  does  the  tried  virtue  of  a 
good  girl  sometimes  depend.” 

In  the  same  connection  Miss  Addams  adds  a statement  which  sum- 
marizes the  points  I have  attempted  to  establish. 

“Of  course  a girl  in  such  a strait  does  not  go  out  deliberately  to 
find  illicit  methods  of  earning  money,®  she  simply  yields  in  a moment 
of  utter  weariness  and  discouragement  to  the  temptations  she  has  been 
I able  to  withstand  up  to  that  moment.  The  long  hours,  the  lack  of 
! comforts,'*  the  low  pay,  the  absence  of  recreation,  the  sense  of  “good 

I times”  all  about  her  which  she  cannot  share,  the  conviction®  that  she 

I ’ The  Syracuse  Report  cites  this  as  the  opinion  of  Clifford  G.  Roe,  former  Assistant 

( State’s  Attorney  in  Chicago,  who  prosecuted  many  “white  slave’’  cases. 

I ® Cf.  U.  S.  Report  cited  1911,  Vol.  V,  p.  36. 

['  ® Op.  cit.  Summary. 

I _ ^ General  Bingham  says  (op.  cit.,  p.  64),_  “Case  after  case  has  come  to  the  knowledge 

of  investigators  where  perfectly  respectable  girls  married  in  love  and  good  faith  men  whose 
deliberate  intention  it  was  to  live  on  the  proceeds  of  their  shame.” 

^ Op.  cit.,  p.  78. 

* If  she  did  this  it  (low  wages)  would  be  a “direct”  cause  according  to  the  Labor  Bureau 
Report. 

^ Miss  Addams  might  add  “necessities.” 

'Only  too  well  founded.  See  Chapter  3.  ( A 


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Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


is  rapidly  losing  health  and  charm  rouse  the  molten  forces  within  her. 
A swelling  tide  of  self-pity  suddenly  storms  the  banks  which  have 
hitherto  held  her  and  finally  overcomes  her  instincts  for  decency  and 
righteousness.” 

Conditions  do  not  differ  greatly  in  different  localities.  Mr.  R.  W. 
Kauffman,  who  has  made  a study  of  prostitution  for  many  years  in 
many  American  and  European  cities,  avers  that  “conditions  are  in 
some  degree  w'orse  in  such  cities  as  New  York  and  Philadelphia,  but 
the  difference  is  always  one  of  degree  and  never  of  kind.”^ 

A rather  remarkable  coincidence  attesting  the  truth  of  this  state- 
ment is  that  the  identical  words  (given  below)  which  were  spoken  by 
a “fallen”  girl  in  London^  several  years  ago  were  repeated  to  Miss 
Addams  in  Chicago.  The  girl  had  succeeded  in  escaping  from  a house 
of  prosititution.  She  was  asked,  by  a girl  who  befriended  her,  “Is  it 
as  bad  as  they  say  in  there?”  “I  don’t  know  what  they  say,”  she 
replied,  “but  it  is  worse  than  any  one  can  say.  There  is  a lot  of  it 
no  one  can  say  because  there  ain’t  no  words  that  have  been  made  for 
it.  Just  you  pray  God  you  won’t  ever  have  to  find  out  how  bad  it  is.” 
How  much  longer  will  society  allow  low  wages  to  force  some  girls  to 
find  out  “how  bad  it  is?”® 

® R.  W.  Kauffman,  “The  Girl  that  Goes  Wrong,”  Introduction,  p.  7. 

’ W.  N.  Willis,  op.  cit.,  p.  93. 

* “One  girl  said  that  she  had  first  yielded  to  temptation  when  she  had  become  utterly 
discouraged  because  she  had  tried  in  vain  for  seven  months  to  save  enough  money  for  a pair 
of  shoes.  She  habitually  spent  $2.00  a week  for  her  room,  $3.00  for  her  board  and  60  cents 
a week  for  carfare,  and  she  had  found  the  40  cents  remaining  from  her  weekly  wage  of  $6.00 
inadequate  to  do  more  than  resole  her  old  shoes  twice.  When  the  shoes  became  too  worn 
to  endure  a third  soling  and  she  possessed  but  90  cents  towards  a new  pair  she  gave  up  the 
struggle ; to  use  her  own  contemptuous  phrase,  she  ‘sold  out  for  a pair  of  shoes.’  ” Jane 
Addams,  op.  cit.,  p.  76. 

The  Chicago  Commission,  op.  cit.,  p.  210,  found  an  employe  of  a “great  many  years 
in  the  department  stores”  who  said  that  "she  knew  many  salesgirls  who  lived  with  men 
who  were  not  their  husbands.” 

The  citation  of  three  actual  cases  may  help  to  add  a touch  of  realism  to  the  academic 
discussion  in  the  text. 

“Investigator  met  one  girl  (in  dance  hall);  gave  the  name  of  Marcelle  and  said  she 
worked  in  the  basement  of  a department  store.  She  said  her  salary  was  $6.00  a week.  Out 
of  this  she  pays  $3.00  for  meals,  $2.00  room  rent,  60  cents  carfare.  Hustles  three  nights  a 
week  for  extra  money  to  pay  for  washing  clothes  and  other  things.  She  is  about  twenty.” 
Chicago,  1911  (p.  186). 

Paulette,  twenty-two,  worked  in  a department  store  for  $6.00.  She  told  investigator 
“ ...  it  was  impossible  to  make  a living  where  I was.  And  even  while  I was  in  the 

store  I made  money  on  the  side.  I was  in  the  habit  of  taking  men  to  hotels,  one,  two,  or 
three  times  a week  when  I wasn’t  too  tired.  After  I had  been  working  two  months  I left 

Rose  “ . . . got  $6.00.  She  had  a mother  and  two  sisters  dependent  on  her  and 

her  mother  was  always  urging  her  for  money.  She  began  to  make  money  ‘on  the  side.’ 
The  store  found  her  out  and  discharged  her.  She  went  into  a ‘house’  in  Ohio  and  sends 
her  mother  her  earnings.”  (Butler,  Pittsburgh,  p.  306.)  Are  the  many  Marcelles,  Paul- 
ettes and  Roses  worth  saving? 


WOMAN’S 

LEGISLATIVE 

I 

! CONGRESS 


Several  hundred  representative  women  of  Illinois, 
convened  in  conference  to  co-operate  with  your  com- 
mittee in  framing  suggestions  for  legislative  action  de- 
manded by  the  mothers  and  wives  of  the  state;  how 
organized,  its  purposes,  names  of  delegates,  its  delibera- 
tions and  recommendations. 


Woman's  Legislative  Congress 


935 


Your  committee  summoned  to  its  assistance  in  December,  1914, 
several  hundred  women,  representative  of  organizations  and  groups 
conspicuous  in  social  welfare  work,  in  the  preparation  of  recom- 
mendations to  the  Forty-ninth  General  Assembly,  then  on  the  eve 
of  convening.  To  the  public-spirited  women  who  thus  responded 
and  devoted  three  days  of  study  and  earnest  deliberation,  your  com- 
mittee hereby  extends  sincere  thanks  and  appreciation.  Your  com- 
mittee is  pleased  to  report  that  the  women  assembled  at  this  con- 
ference formed  a permanent  organization,  styled  the  “Woman’s 
Legislative  Congress,”  the  announced  purpose  of  which  is  to  con- 
vene regularly  in  the  December  preceding  the  regular  session  of  the 
General  Assembly  to  formulate  such  recommendations  to  the  legis- 
lators as  appear  to  the  delegates  to  be  the  embodiment  of  the 
demands  of  the  womanhood  of  Illinois.  A more  ideal,  and  at  the 
same  time  practical,  co-operation  of  the  women,  acting  in  an  ad- 
visory capacity  through  this  Woman’s  Congress,  and  the  men,  act- 
ing officially  as  members  of  the  law-making  department  of  the  state 
government,  could  not  well  be  imagined. 

The  delegates  to  the  conference  resulting  in  the  formation  of 
this  congress  were  selected,  in  the  following  manner: 

(1)  Your  committee  dispatched  letters  to  various  women’s  or- 
ganizations, requesting  the  naming  by  the  organizations  of  dele- 
gates. Many  delegates  were  chosen  in  this  manner. 

(2)  A body  of  managers,  representative  of  all  groups,  agreeing 
to  relieve  your  committee  of  the  details  of  the  conference,  lists  of 
names  were  submitted  by  the  members  of  this  board,  and  to  these 
names  invitations  to  attend  the  conference  were  mailed. 

It  was  believed  that  in  this  manner  the  delegates,  while  not  in- 
clusive of  all,  or  even  a small  percentage,  of  the  women  intelligently 
interested  in  the  problems  under  consideration,  would  nevertheless 
be  representative  and  that  their  findings  would  be  accurately  re- 
flective of  the  enlightened  thought  of  the  women  of  the  state. 

In  lieu  of  a report  of  your  committee  at  the  convening  of  the 
Forty-ninth  General  Assembly,  the  recommendations  of  this  con- 
gress were  submitted  to  all  the  members  of  the  Senate  and  of  the 
House  of  Representatives,  by  whom  many  of  the  principles  en- 
dorsed were  embodied  into  laws. 

Recommendations  of  Woman’s  Legislative  Congress. 

The  following  is  a digest  of  recommendations  made  by  the 
Woman’s  Legislative  Congress. 

Subiects  referred  to  herein  were  discussed  by  experts  in  each  re- 
spective field.  Only  principles  and  not  specific  bills  were  approved. 


CONSTITUTIONAL  LEGISLATION. 

1.  The  next  General  Assembly  shall  provide  for  a Constitutional 
Convention  for  Illinois. 


936 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


2.  There  shall  be  an  amendment  to  the  amending  clause  of  the 
constitution  so  as  to  make  the  amending  of  the  constitution  more 
quickly  and  easily  responsive  to  the  popular  will. 


EDUCATIONAL  LEGISLATION. 

1.  All  vocational  education  supported  by  taxation,  Federal,  state, 
or  local,  shall  be  incorporated  into  and  made  an  integral  part  of  our 
present  public  school  system.  Specialized  vocational  work  in  the 
public  schools  shall  be  offered  only  to  pupils  fourteen  years  of  age, 
or  to  those  who  have  completed  the  eighth  grade  of  the  elementary 
schools. 

No  course  of  study  offered  in  the  public  schools  shall  be  so  nar- 
rowly vocational  as  to  exclude  work  of  a liberal  type  to  prepare  the 
pupil  for  the  broader  duties  of  citizenship. 

A fair  proportion  of  the  cost  of  public  education,  both  general 
and  vocational,  shall  be  met  by  state  taxation.  The  funds  so  collected 
to  be  distributed  so  as  to  equalize  opportunities  throughout  the  state. 

2.  There  shall  be  a pension  law  for  teachers  state-wide  in  its 
application,  but  its  provisions  shall  not  apply  to  Chicago  nor  to  Peoria 
unless  the  teachers  there  desire  it.  The  state  shall  provide  an  amount 
equal  to  the  teachers’  contribution. 

All  teachers  shall  contribute  the  same  sum  for  the  same  j-ears  of 
service  and  shall  be  entitled  to  the  same  annuity.  There  shall  be  a 
desirable  pension  after  a certain  number  of  years,  not  exceeding  fifteen 
and  full  pension  after  twenty-five  years  of  teaching.  Contributing 
teachers  shal  elect  a working  majority  of  the  members  of  the  board 
to  administer  the  pension  fund. 

3.  It  shall  be  lawful  for  school  boards  in  cities,  townships  or 
districts,  to  grant  free  of  charge,  the  use  of  school  buildings  for  civic 
deliberations.  These  same  boards  shall  conduct  supervised  recreational 
activities  in  school  houses  and  pay  for  the  services  of  special  officers 
needed  for  such  use  out  of  the  school  funds  of  the  cities,  townships 
or  districts;  such  meetings  and  recreational  activities  shall  not  interfere 
with  the  regular  school  use  of  buildings. 

4.  The  compulsory  school  age  shall  be  raised  from  fourteen  to 
sixteen  years. 


SOCIAL  LEGISLATION. 

1.  Better  provision  for  the  support  of  wife  and  children  by  the 
husband  and  father.  Non-support  of  wife  without  lawful  cause  shall 
constitute  a misdemeanor,  punishable  by  fine  or  imprisonment  or  both, 
for  which  the  offender  may  be  brought  back  for  trial  even  from 
another  state.  Failure  to  support  shall  be  a continuing  offense  for  the 
husband. 

The  father  shall  be  held  for  the  abandonment  of  his  children  and 
for  their  support  to  the  age  of  eighteen  years;  the  penalty  for  not  com- 
plying with  the  law  shall  be  increased. 

The  present  law  requires  the  father  to  support  his  children  to 
the  age  of  twelve  years,  and  the  husband  to  support  the  wife  for  only 
fifty-two  weeks  after  abandonment,  unless  he,  after  that  time,  again 
lives  with  his  wife. 

PROVISION  FOR  A SPEEDY  TRIAL  SHOULD  BE  SECURED. 

2.  Better  provision  for  the  support  of  illegitimate  children  up  to 
the  age  of  eighteen.  The  father  shall  be  required  to  provide  according 
to  his  means.  The  money  shall  be  paid  through  the  court  to  the 
mother  at  regular  intervals,  or  to  some  guardian,  organization  or 
institution  caring  for  the  child.  The  father  shall  be  put  under  suitable 
bonds.  No  change  in  the  rules  of  evidence  for  conviction  is  necessary-, 
but  provision  must  be  made  for  the  extradition  of  the  father  if  he 


Woman’s  Legislative  Congress 


937 


attempts  to  escape  into  another  state  after  being  convicted.  Now 
the  illegitimate  father  pays  but  $550.00  in  the  period  of  ten  years. 

3.  An  Abatement  and  Injunction  Law,  such  as  is  enforced  in 
several  other  states,  shall  be  put  into  our  statutes,  to  provide  for  more 
effectual  suppression  of  houses  of  prostitution  by  declaring  them  public 
nuisances.  It  shall  provide  for  injunction  proceedings  against  the 
transgressor  and  against  the  property  for  one  year,  to  bring  about 
abatement.  Fine  and  imprisonment  may  be  imposed  upon  owner  and 
tenant  to  protect  society  from  these  houses.  The  general  reputation 
of  the  place  or  occupants  shall  be  admissible  evidence  in  proving  the 
nuisance,  and  any  citizen  may  bring  suit. 

4.  Fining  system  now  in  effect  in  dealing  with  prostitutes  shall 
be  changed  to  commitment  to  a shelter  or  home  where  vocational 
training  and  treatment  can  be  given  to  the  inmates  for  their  welfare 
and  the  safety  of  the  public.  The  sentence  shall  be  for  one  year.  The 
penalty  for  both  keepers  and  patrons  of  these  houses  to  fit  the  offense. 

5.  The  state  shall  establish  custodial  care  over  its  feeble-minded, 
to  extend  to  adults  as  well  as  to  minors.  An  effort  shall  be  made  to 
take  over  the  complete  guardianship  of  these  weaklings  for  the  welfare 
of  the  state  and  the  afflicted. 

6.  The  age  of  consent  shall  be  raised  from  sixteen  to  eighteen 
years  for  girls  and  similar  protective  measures  for  boys  shall  be 
established. 

7.  There  shall  be  complete  compulsory  birth  registration  to  in- 
clude statement  of  defects  at  birth. 

8.  More  assistance  shall  be  given  to  the  care  and  education  of  the 
blind. 

9.  There  shall  be  a law  under  which  any  person  may  be  prosecuted 
for  taking  children  into  saloons,  disorderly  houses,  and  other  places 
leading  to  their  downfall,  and  who,  by  the  use  of  money  or  promises, 
get  them  to  commit  some  act  that  will  make  them  liable  to  the  crim- 
inal or  delinquency  laws  of  the  state. 


INDUSTRIAL  LEGISLATION. 


1.  There  shall  be  a minimum  wage  for  all  women  and  minors, 
to  be  established  by  a wage  board  under  a minimum  wage  commission. 

2.  There  shall  be  one  day  rest  in  seven  in  all  occupations. 

3.  The  hours  for  work  for  women  in  certain  industries  shall  be 
limited  to  eight  hours  a day,  and  six  days  in  one  week. 

4.  No  child  under  sixteen  years  shall  be  employed  except  on 
presentation  of  a special  vacation  certificate,  void  on  the  day  school 
opens. 

All  boys  under  fourteen  and  girls  under  eighteen  shall  be  barred 
from  all  street  trades;  boys  under  sixteen  not  to  be  permitted  to 
work  in  such  after  8 P.  M.  or  before  6 A.  M. 

Minors  shall  be  prohibited  from  employment  in  messenger  service 
after  9 P.  M.  and  before  6 A.  M. 

All  public , officials  who  do  not  keep  their  oaths  of  office  for  en- 
forcement of  the  law  shall  be  removed  from  office. 

Mrs.  Harriet  Taylor  Treadwell  ably  presided  over  the  delibera- 
tions of  the  congress  and  was  re-elected  its  chairman  for  the  second 
congress,  to  be  held  in  1916.  She  may  be  addressed  at  6220  Harper 
avenue,  Chicago. 

The  delegates  to  the  conference, were  as  follows: 


Miss  Louisa  Abbott 
Miss  Jane  Addams 
Miss  Kate  Adams 


A. 


Mrs.  Alice  Dow  Allinson 
Miss  Mary  Anderson 
Mrs.  John  Angus 
Mrs.  Rose  Anton 
Miss  Edith  Abbott 


938 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Mrs.  Harry  F.  Atwood 
Mrs.  Chas.  F.  Adams 
Mrs.  J.  J.  Austin 
Mrs.  Frederick  T.  Avery 
Mrs.  J.  W.  Allison 
Mrs.  Afield 
Mrs.  Benj.  Auerbach 
Mrs.  Franc  P.  Allore 
Mrs.  Anna  B.  Anderson 
Mrs.  F.  W.  Allen 
Mrs.  Anna  Anderson 
Dr.  Alice  M.  C.  Allen 

B. 

Mrs.  Wm.  Bell 
Mrs.  S.  A.  Berg 
Mrs.  Mary  F.  Balcomb 
Mrs.  F.  H.  Belden,  Hinsdale,  111. 
Mrs.  L.  Brackett  Bishop 
Mrs.  W.  A.  Boland 
Mrs.  Joseph  T.  Brown 
Mrs.  Arthur  B.  Brumbach 
Mrs.  Fred  Bartlett 
Mrs.  Edw.  Bemis 
Mrs.  Geo.  A.  Bacon,  Decatur,  111. 
Mrs.  F.  W.  Blocki 
Dr.  Alice  Brown 
Mrs.  Emma  Ruth  Bangs,  River 
Eorest,  111. 

Mrs.  Lucinda  Buck 
Mrs.  Louis  Betts 
Mrs.  Laura  Brayton 
Mrs.  Chas.  H.  Betts 
Mrs.  Wm.  J.  Bogan 
Mrs.  A.  H.  Beaver,  Congress  Park, 
111. 

Mrs.  A.  P.  Borland 
Mrs.  N.  D.  Burgess 
Mrs.  Florence  S.  Brown 
Mrs.  G.  W.  Bigelow 
Mrs.  Edward  F.  Bryant 
Mrs.  Otto  A.  Brenner 
Mrs.  Edward  Banker,  Evanston,  111. 
Mrs.  D.  D.  Bardo 
Mrs.  Laura  E.  Blakeslee 
Mrs.  Nellie  Bain 
Mrs.  Bert  R.  Benjamin 
Mrs.  John  H.  Beers 
Mrs.  Philip  Barnard 
Mrs.  Chas.  H.  Baker,  Highland 
Park,  111. 

Mrs.  Geo.  Byron 
Mrs.  Marion  Bate 
Mrs.  May  L.  Bentley 
Mrs.  Geo.  M.  Brill 
Mrs.  Wilbur  Blackford 
Mrs.  Julia  Brennon 
Miss  Virginia  Barrett,  Galena,  111. 
Mrs.  C.  C.  Bulger,  Greenfield,  111. 
Mrs.  Sherman  Booth,  Glencoe,  111. 
Mrs.  Wm.  Boyes 
Miss  Caroline  Baldwin 
Mrs.  Marion  Bell 
Mrs.  Margaretta  Brown 
Mrs.  Carrie  A.  Bahrenberg,  Belle- 
ville, 111. 


Mrs.  Mary  Codding  Bourland,  Pon- 
tiac, 111. 

Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe  Britton 

Dr.  Leonora  Beck 

Mrs.  Chas.  H.  Brackebush 

Mrs.  Sophonisba  Breckenridge 

Mrs.  Jean  Wallace  Butler 

Mrs.  Sarah  M.  Butcher 

Mrs.  O.  T.  Bright 

Mrs.  George  Bass 

Judge  Mary  Bartelme 

Mrs.  John  L.  Bass 

Miss  Mary  Bour 

Mrs.  Esther  E.  Brainard 

Mrs.  Chas.  W.  Blodgett 

Mrs.  R.  J.  Brouillet 

Mrs.  Geo.  Banschbach 

Miss  Emma  V.  Bailey 

Mrs.  Roscoe  Barrett 

Mrs.  John  C.  Bley 

Mrs.  Thomas  Banfield 

Miss  Helen  Bennett 

Mrs.  W.  H.  Buhlig 

Mrs.  R.  L.  Benson 

Mrs.  Ered  Bluemer 

Mrs.  W.  E.  Benson 

Mrs.  Clara  Bowerman 

Mrs.  S.  C.  Brandt,  Oak  Park 

Mrs.  Z.  P.  Brossman 

Mrs.  E.  O.  Brown 

Mrs.  H.  M.  Brown,  Peoria,  111. 

Mrs.  Mary  Lucey,  Urbana,  111. 

Mrs.  Hugo  Brady 
Mrs.  Emmanuel  Buxbaum 
Mrs.  L.  Banjamin 
Miss  Zonia  Baker 
Mrs.  Emma  Burt 
Miss  Estelline  Bennett 
Miss  Eanny  A.  Butcher 
M.  Violet  Brothers 
Dr.  Sarah  C.  Buckley 

C. 

Mrs.  Maud  Cain  Taylor 
Mrs.  Henry  Cheney 
Mrs.  Edward  Cunat 
Mrs.  Harlan  Ward  Coolej' 

Miss  Nellie  Carlin 
Mrs.  Chas.  E.  Caldwell 
Mrs.  Walter  Cheney 
Mrs.  B.  A.  Camfield 
Airs.  Gertrude  Cramer 
Mrs.  Wm.  Connelly 
Mrs.  Geo.  S.  Crilly 
Airs.  Frank  B.  Cook 
Mrs.  H.  C.  Coffeen 

Airs.  A.  C.  Caldwell 

Airs.  Wm.  Craig 

Airs.  Aver\’  Coonley,  Riverside.  111. 

Mrs.  G.  AI.  ClajFerg,  Avon,  111. 

Airs.  E.  A.  Currv,  Alt.  Sterling,  111, 
Aliss  Elizabeth  Christian 
Airs.  V^m.  F.  Crummer 
Airs.  John  Stewart  Coonley 
Airs.  John  AI.  Coulter 
Airs.  Charlotte  Colton 


Woman's  Legislative  Congress 


939 


Mrs.  Wm.  Clute,  Park  Ridge,  III. 

Miss  Eleanor  Coddington 

Miss  Elvina  Cabell 

Miss  Mary  Campbell 

Mrs.  Grace  Carr 

Mrs.  Rose  L.  Colby 

Mrs.  Fred  Culver 

Mrs.  Luther  Conant,  Oak  Park,  111. 
Mrs.  Israel  Cowen 

Mrs.  J.  C.  Connihan,  Brookfield,  111. 
Mrs.  G.  A.  Copeland,  Wilmette,  111. 
Mrs.  Maud  Craig 
Miss  Carlson 
Mrs.  Richard  H.  Colby 
Mrs.  James  F.  Cannon 
Mrs.  Edwin  R.  ^Carter 
Mrs.  Henry  W.  Clarke 
Mrs.  F.  E.  Clenainin 
Mrs.  Emma  Coney 
Mrs.  James  Costello 
Mrs.  Otis  Cushing 
Mrs.  Geo.  E.  Cook 
Mrs.  John  Taylor  Cowles 
Mrs.  N.  W.  Carkhuff,  Oak  Park 
Mrs.  Sheares-Carnovele 
Miss  J.  Rose  Colby,  Normal  Park, 
111. 

Mrs.  Chas.  Clark 
Mp.  Frank  Churchill 
Miss  Flora  J.  Cook 
Mrs.  Joseph  J.  Cook 
Mrs.  Joseph  W.  Crenin 
Mrs.  John  Cudahy 
Miss  Collins 
Mrs.  W.  J.  Corboy 
Mrs.  Edward  Cummings 
Miss  Conway 

Mrs.  Margaret  C.  Carr,  Ottawa,  111. 
Mrs.  John  Coulter 
Mrs.  Villa  Coles  Case,  Joliet,  111. 
Miss  Ethel  Colson 
Mrs.  Walter  M.  Clute,  Park  Ridge, 
111. 

Mrs.  J.  V.  Caverly 
D. 

Miss  Margaret  B.  Dobyne 
Miss  Charlotte  F.  Dunne 
Mrs.  Frederick  A.  Dow 
Mrs.  Geo.  Dawson 
Dr.  Effa  V.  Davis 
Mrs.  Ann  Davis 
Mrs.  Alice  Davies 
Mrs.  Alonzo  P.  Daniels 
Mrs.  Earnest  Dawson 
Mrs.  lean  DeShon 
Mrs.  W.  K.  Doty 
Mrs.  Chas.  D.  Dorbeer 
Mrs.  Frank  W.  Disbrow 
Mrs.  Bertha  A.  Denker 
Dr.  Frances  Dickinson 
Miss  Marion  Drake 
Mrs.  Ioanna  E.  Downes 
Mrs.  .'Sophia  E.  Delevan 
Mrs.  O.  K.  Dike 
Mrs.  Frank  C.  Drake 


Dr,  Anna  Dwyer 

Mrs.  Jean  Ellis  Driver 

Mrs.  Elvira  Downey,  Clinton,  111. 

Mrs.  W.  P'.  Dummer 

Dr.  Harriet  Daniel,  Murphysboro, 

111. 

Drusella  R.  Dailey,  Peoria,  111. 

Dr.  Cornelia  B.  DeBey 

Mrs.  Ballard  Dunn,  Palos  Park,  111. 

Mrs.  Wm.  JI.  Davis 

Mrs.  George  Davidson,  Oak  Park, 

111. 

Mrs.  Henry  C.  E.  David 
Mrs.  Chas.  T.  Dailey 
Mrs.  W.  E.  Dorgan 
Mrs.  P.  C.  Darrow,  Western  Springs, 
111. 

Mrs.  Rufus  C.  Dawes,  Evanston.  111. 
Miss  Mary  C.  Dias,  Arlington  Heights, 
111. 

Mrs.  J.  L.  Donahue 
Ada  V.  Dayman,  Congress  Park,  111. 
Mrs.  Anna  E.  Dodge,  DeKalb,  111. 
Mary  E.  S.  Drummond,  East  St. 

Louis,  111. 

Mrs.  M.  C.  Dohm,  Greenfield,  111. 
Mrs.  Harry  Dinkleman 
Mrs.  A.  W.  Draper 
Mrs.  Geo.  R.  Dean,  Highland  Park, 
111. 

Mrs.  J.  George  Deitrich 
Mrs.  Wm.  A.  Doyle 
Mrs.  Joseph  Downey 
Mrs.  Harry  Dubia 
Mrs.  Charles  L.  Daniels 
Mrs.  M.  Dwyer 
Mrs.  L.  K.  Doty 
Mrs.  O.  W.  Dean 
Mrs.  Wm.  Doyle 
Mrs.  Mary  Deatheridge 
Mrs.  John  Dowdl 

E. 

Mrs.  Ida  Darling  Engleke 
Mrs.  Flora  Estey 
Mrs.  Levi  A.  Etiel 
Mrs.  E.  E.  Ertsman 
Mrs.  W.  A.  Evans 
Mrs.  Ralph  Ellis 

Mrs.  F.  D.  Everett,  Highland  Park, 

111. 

Mrs.  Dora  Earle 
Mrs.  Lewis  Eaton 

Miss  Ruth  Ewing,  Highland  Park,  111. 

Mrs.  Emilie  L.  Edwards 

Mrs.  Wm.  H.  Eldred 

Mrs.  Emma  L.  Ebbert,  Oak  Park,  111. 

Mrs.  Beulah  B.  Everage 

Mrs.  J.  P.  Esmay 

Mrs.  W.  J.  Evans 

Mrs.  Thos.  J.  English 

Mrs.  Wm.  L.  Edwards 

Mrs.  Milton  Eisendrath 

Mrs.  Myra  S.  Emrich 

. F.  . " 

Mrs.  Ida  Fursman  ''I 


940 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Mrs.  Joseph  Forbrich 

Miss  Kathryn  Fraley 

Mrs.  Laura  Fixen 

Mrs.  Laura  E.  Fischer 

Mrs.  Elanor  Flood 

Mrs.  Effie  Freeman 

Mrs.  Esther  Falkenstein 

Mrs.  Joseph  Fish 

Mrs.  Floyd  Frazier 

Mrs.  R.  B.  Farson,  St.  Charles,  111. 

Mrs.  H.  W.  Farson,  Salem,  111. 

Miss  Shirley  Farr 

Mrs.  Wm.  Farrington 

Mrs.  L.  F.  Faynes,  Arlington  Heights 

Mrs.  Sarah  B.  Fish 

Mrs.  L.  H.  Frensdorf 

Mrs.  E.  F.  Ford,  Greenfield,  111. 

Miss  Adele  Friend 

Miss  Nettie  Freeman 

Mrs.  Albert  Flanagan 

Mrs.  Chas.  Flanigan 

Mrs.  Edna  Forsyth 

Miss  Emma  Fisher 

Mrs.  Ferde  Fisher 

Mrs.  Victor  S.  Frankenstein 

Mrs.  Chas.  F.  Fishback 

Mrs.  L.  H.  Fowler,  Wilmette,  111. 

Mrs.  M.  J.  Faherty 

Mrs.  W.  W.  Fisher 

Mrs.  James  H.  Falkenstein 

G. 

Mrs.  Julia  Godfriaux 
Mrs.  Minnie  Starr  Grainger,  Belvi- 
dere,  IlL 

Mrs.  John  R.  Gray 

Miss  Catherine  Goggin 

Miss  Mary  Galvin 

Mrs.  J.  DeWitt  Garrison 

Mrs.  Paul  Gerhardt 

Miss  Helen  Gilbert 

Miss  Alice  Greenacre 

Mrs.  John  E.  Gould 

Mrs.  Bertha  Goldstein 

Mrs.  L.  E.  Gordon 

Mrs.  R.  H.  Garrique,  Evanston.  111. 

Miss  Marv  Edna  Glendon,  Oak  Park, 

in. 

Mrs.  Paul  Goode 

Mrs.  E.  K.  Gale 

Mrs.  Wm.  H.  Gallagher 

Mrs.  M.  E.  Graner 

Miss  Theresa  Gilbert,  Oak  Park,  111. 

Miss  Etta  M.  Golden 

Mrs.  Rosa  Gordon 

Miss  Sarah  Gleason 

H. 

Mrs.  C.  John  Hanson 

Mrs.  C.  H.  Hahn 

Mrs.  A.  F.  Holden 

Mrs.  John  W.  Houston 

Carolyn  E.  Hoey 

Miss  Edna  Heller 

Mrs.  William  Hoig,  Brookfield,  111. 

Mrs.  John  R.  Hoxie 


Mrs.  1.  C.  Harmon 

Mrs.  J.  Hilmes 

Mrs.  L.  E.  Haynes 

Mrs.  Hugo  Haitman 

Mrs.  George  W.  Hall 

Mrs.  Thomas  F.  Hickey 

Mrs.  Hattie  H.  Harding 

Miss  Alice  M.  Houston 

Miss  Lucy  A.  Hall 

Mrs.  Nina  Dr  Hess 

Mrs.  Samuel  Hofman 

Miss  Margaret  A.  Haley 

Mrs.  A.  D.  Hannah 

Mrs.  Edward  D.  Hines 

Mrs.  M.  Hook 

Mrs.  J.  W.  Hogan 

Miss  Rebecca  L.  Hefter 

Mrs.  Margaret  M.  Hatfield 

Miss  Gertrude  Heitman 

Georgia  T.  Hopkins,  Shelbyville,  111. 

Mrs.  Charles  E.  Hull,  Salem,  111. 

I. 

Mrs.  Harold  L.  Ickes,  Evanston,  111. 
Mrs.  H.  J.  Ilett,  LaGrange,  111. 

Mrs.  Francis  E.  Ingram 

J. 

Mrs.  Ella  I.  Juul 
Mrs.  Henry  S.  Jaffray 
Mrs.  Stella  S.  Jannotta 
Mrs.  Thomas  Jamison 
Effie  Johnson 
Mrs.  Mary  J.  Sones 
Mrs.  Ray  S.  Jenkins 
Mrs.  W.  J.  Jarvis 
Mrs.  Minona  S.  Jones 

K. 

Mrs.  Marie  Keough 
Mrs.  Thomas  Knight 
Mrs.  Robert  Kohlhammer 
Mrs.  L.  E.  Koontz 
Airs.  Elmer  E.  Kendall 
Aliss  Florence  King 
Mrs.  Kirk 

Airs.  John  C.  Kennedy 

Airs.  Charles  Kayser,  Wheaton. 

lU. 

Mrs.  Edwin  Kuh 

Airs.  Robert  H.  Kuss 

Aliss  A'era  King,  Belvidere,  Illinois 

Aliss  -Alice  T.  P.  Keary 

Airs.  Nathan  Kawin 

Airs.  W.  Herschel  Knap 

Airs.  George  D.  Keller 

Airs.  Irving  Kellv 

Airs.  Emily  Koltz 

Airs.  Frank  W.  Kinshel 

Airs.  E.  A.  King 

Airs.  Henry  Kuh 

Mrs.  J.  Kopf 

Airs.  James  E.  Keefe 

Miss  Annie  Kennedy 

Airs.  John  C.  Kehoe 

Airs.  Thomas  Kurnan 

Airs.  W.  E.  Kennedy 


Woman’s  Legislative  Congress 


941 


L. 

Mrs.  Judith  W.  Loewenthal 
Mrs.  Julius  Loeb 

Mrs.  Wm.  Bross  Lloyd,  Winnetka,  111. 

Mrs.  Jessie  L.  Lyons 

Mrs.  G.  Franklin  Leavitt 

Miss  Ida  M.  Lane 

Mrs.  Harry  Laing 

Mrs.  John  Leavett 

Mrs.  Marian  Walters  Lovett 

Mrs.  Marie  Leavett 

Mrs.  Lucy  I.  Laing 

Mrs.  Sylvia  Lawson 

Mrs.  J.  C.  Leishman,  DeKalb,  111. 

Mrs.  L.  J.  Lamson 

Miss  Elizabeth  Euphrasyne  Langley 

Mrs.  Alfred  Linton,  Winnetka,  111. 

Mrs.  Frank  E.  Lindsey 

Mrs.  Elizabeth  Lucas 

Mrs.  W.  D.  Longacre 

Mrs.  George  Lenz 

Mrs.  Herman  Landauer 

Mrs.  John  Law 

Mrs.  Harry  H.  Lyon 

Mrs.  W.  G.  Lloyd,  Greenfield,  111. 

Mrs.  Jessie  Lowenhaupt 

Mrs.  Frank  R.  Lillie 

Mrs.  Nathan  B.  Lewis 

Mrs.  Edward  T.  Lee 

Dr.  Emily  M.  Luff,  Oak  Park,  111. 

Mrs.  Wm.  Lyman 
Mrs.  Lulu  Law 
Mrs.  Albert  Loeb 
Mrs.  John  L.  Lewison 
Mrs.  M.  McGoorty  Long 
Mrs.  M.  P.  Lawler 
Miss  Clara  E.  Laughlin 
Mrs.  Lee  J.  Lesser 
Mrs.  Joe  B.  Lombard 
Mrs.  B.  F.  Langworthy,  River  Forest, 
111. 

Miss  Julia  Lathrop 

M. 

Dr.  Marie  McCrillis,  Evanston,  111. 

Mrs.  Wm.  M.  Monroe 

Mrs.  D.  E.  McIntyre,  Champaign,  111. 

Mrs.  H.  R.  Maxwell 

Mrs.  John  T.  Mason 

Mrs.  Clifford  Miller,  Park  Ridge,  111. 

Mrs.  Lelia  H.  Martin,  Wheaton,  111. 

Mrs.  Christian  M.  Madsen 

Miss  Mary  McEnerney 

Miss  Elizabeth  Maloney 

Mrs.  Eda  V.  Morrison 

Mrs.  C.  F.  Millsuaugh 

Mrs.  Joseph  Moses 

Mrs.  Addison  W.  Moore 

Mrs.  Catherine  W.  McCullough 

Mrs.  Andrew  McLiesh,  Glencoe.  111. 

Mrs.  Wm.  D.  McClintock 

Mrs.  Paul  F.  P.  Muller 

Mrs.' Anna  Mathews 

Mrs.  C.  E.  McGrew 

Mrs.  H.  A.  McKee,  LaGrange,  111. 


Mrs.  T.  V.  Morse 
Mrs.  David  McDonald 
Mrs.  Frank  E.  Morey 
Mrs.  D.  V.  Medalia 
Mrs.  R.  E.  Morey 
Mrs.  E.  N.  Mann 
Miss  Meirs 

Mrs.  Margaret  Mercer 

Mrs.  John  S.  McClelland 

Mrs.  M.  D.  McKinley 

Mrs.  T.  G.  Macon 

Mrs.  W.  A.  Morey,  Marseilles.  111. 

Mrs.  John  F.  McGuire 
Dr.  Margaret  Babcock-Meloy,  Peoria, 
111. 

Mrs.  Florence  E.  Merrill,  Peoria,  111. 

Mrs.  Medill  McCormick 

Mrs.  Fred  Michael 

Mrs.  Chas.  Monahan 

Mrs.  J.  R.  Mulroy 

Mrs.  Alice  O’Grady  Moulton 

Mrs.  Margaret  Myers 

Mrs.  D.  R.  McAuley 

Mrs.  Edgar  Martin 

Mrs.  Wm.  Maegerlein 

Mrs.  Edwin  A.  Munger 

Mrs.  E.  B.  Murray,  DeKalb,  111. 

Mrs.  Clara  F.  Miller 
Miss  Rose  McHugh 
Mrs.  E.  S.  Moore  ■ 

Mme.  F.  Medini 
Mrs.  A.  P.  C.  Matson 
Mrs.  Edward  Merney 
Mrs.  Bernard  McDewitt 
Mrs.  Chas.  Moody 
Mrs.  Joseph  Mitchell 
Mrs.  Michael  Michelson 
Mrs.  Wm.  McKinley 
Mrs.  Charles  E.  Merriam 
Mrs.  James  Morrison 
Miss  Catherine  Mullen 
Miss  Mary  McDowell 
Mrs.  Robert  McCall 
Mrs.  Lida  E.  McDermut 
Mrs.  Millard  McEwen 
Mrs.  Kenneth  McLennan 
Mrs.  Leonora  Z.  Meder 
Mrs.  John  F.  McCormick 
Mrs.  J.  B.  Walker 
Mrs.  John  P.  Marsh 
Miss  M.  Rio  Mather 
Mrs.  William  H.  Mansfield 
Dr.  Marie  Blair  Mavor 

N. 

Mrs.  C.  E.  Nagley 
Miss  Agnes  Nestor 
Miss  Grace  Nichols 
Mrs.  Louis  A.  Neebe 
Mrs.  W.  W.  Morris 
Mrs.  Robert  Nightengale 
Mrs.  Samuel  Newman 
Miss  Florence  Nesbet 
Mrs.  F.  G.  Nelson 
Mrs.  H.  C.  Newton 


942 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


O. 

Mrs.  Wm.  Ownes 

Miss  Kate  O’Connor 

Miss  Anna  Okeson 

Miss  Rebecca  Okeson 

Mrs.  Victor  Olander 

Mrs.  Howard  Olds 

Mrs.  Mary  Barratt  O’Hara 

Mrs.  Albert  Oppenheimer 

Miss  Lena  Ofalis 

Mrs.  G.  A.  Osinga 

Mrs.  Florence  M.  H.  O’Hara 

Mrs.  J.  J.  O’Donnell 

Mrs.  John  O’Connor 

Mrs.  P.  J.  O’Keefe 

Mrs.  T.  J.  O’Gara 

Mrs.  David  O’Shea 

Mrs.  Celia  A.  O’Shaughnessy 

P. 

Miss  Susan  Peabody 

Mrs.  L.  I.  Pierson,  Wilmette,  111. 

Mrs.  George  C.  Price 

Mrs.  Carrie  Powell 

Mrs.  James  W.  Parker 

Mrs.  Laura  Dainty  Pelham 

Mrs.  Martin  Padden 

Mrs.  W.  J.  Phalan,  Evanston 

Mrs.  Hynie  N.  Pearson 

Mrs.  Harry  Piatt 

Mrs.  W.  F.  Pack,  River  Forest,  111. 

Mrs.  Nicholas  Prakken 

Mrs.  H.  T.  Pitcher 

Mrs.  Wm.  J.  Patterson 

Mrs.  George  Packard 

Mrs.  John  Powell 

Mrs.  Chas.  A.  Plamondon 

Mrs.  R.  J.  Peper 

Mrs.  E.  L.  Parker 

Dean  Mary  Ross  Potter 

Mrs.  Lincoln  Payne,  Danville,  111. 

Mrs.  Ellia  Peattie 

Miss  Editha  Phelps 

Miss  Emma  Pishell 

Mrs.  Chas.  Pearce 

Mrs.  G.  F.  Pulford 

Mrs.  Aaran  Purvin 

Mrs.  W.  D.  Preston 

Mrs.  Merritt  W.  Pinckney 

Mrs.  Moses  Purvin 

Miss  Virginia  Pope 

Dr.  Mary  Porter 

Mrs.  Jerome  Palmer 

Mrs.  Howard  M.  Peirce,  Evanston,  111. 

Mrs.  B.  E.  Pa,ge,  Highland  Park,  111. 

Mrs.  G.  W.  Plummer 

Miss  Carrie  Pam 

Mrs.  George  Palmer,  Springfield,  111. 
Mrs.  David  Parr 

Mrs.  Howard  Priestly,  Princeton,  111. 
Mrs.  Phillip  S.  Post,  Winnetka,  111. 
Mrs.  James  F.  Porter,  Hubbard 
Woods,  111. 

Mrs.  Benjamin  E.  Page,  Highland 
Park,  111. 

Mrs.  C.  H.  Powell 


Mrs.  Harry  B.  Page 
Mrs.  Joanna  S.  Porter 
Mrs.  Josephine  Powers 

Q. 

Mrs.  Emma  Quinlan 
Miss  Mary  E.  Quirk 
Mrs.  Geo.  B.  Quinn 

R. 

Mrs.  Milo  B.  Randall 
Miss  Grace  Reed 
Mrs.  John  W.  Robbins 
Mrs.  Raymond  Robbins 
Mrs.  C.  N.  Rowley 
Dr.  Rose  Ryan 
Dr.  Helga  Rund 
Mrs.  Ignace  Reis 
Mrs.  Julius  Rosenwald 
Mrs.  John  Emerson  Roberts,  Park 
Ridge,  III. 

Mrs.  Ransom  H.  Randall 
Miss  Florence  Rutherford 
Mrs.  W.  D.  Robbins 
Mrs.  A.  D.  Richey 
Miss  Ella  B.  Rogers 
Mrs.  A.  W'.  Roth 
Mrs.  F.  K.  Rexford 
Mrs.  Frank  J.  Reis 

Mrs.  Harriet  Raby,  Congress  Park,  111. 
Diana  Ramser,  Rock  Island,  111. 

Mary  E.  Ruddick,  Aurora,  111. 

Mrs.  Howard  Ray 

Mrs.  Chas.  Rubens 

Mrs.  M.  L.  Rau 

Mrs.  Jas.  Regensberg 

Miss  Ella  Rowe 

Mrs.  Marc  A.  Rolfe 

Mrs.  Wm.  Radley 

Miss  Thirga  Riggs 

Mrs.  Edwin  Ramberg 

iMrs.  Andrew  J.  Ryan 

Mrs.  John  Rynders,  M’averly,  111. 

Mrs.  Elizabeth  Roush 
Miss  Grace  Reid 

Mrs.  Fred  Rossbach,  Oak  Park,  111. 
Mrs.  James  Regensburg 

S. 

Mrs.  E.  E.  Smith 
Airs.  C.  G.  Snow 
Airs.  Wm.  Severin 
Airs.  Geo.  Sikes 
Airs.  Geo.  Shepherd 
Dr.  Julia  Strawn 
Airs.  C.  L.  Stillman 
Airs.  E.  L.  Stewart 
Airs.  Albert  H.  Schweizer 
Dr.  Alarie  S.  Schmidt 
Aliss  Edith  Swift 
Airs.  Alartin  Schutze 
Aliss  Hester  Stowe 
Aliss  Gertrude  Stone 
Airs.  Karl  Stecher 
Airs.  Se%Tnon  Stedman 
Airs.  Silas  Strawn 
Airs.  Dunlap  Smith 


Woman’s  Legislative  Congress 


943 


Miss  Amelia  Stear 
Dr.  Julia  Holmes  Smith 
Dr.  Clara  Seipple 
Miss  Flo  Sibbett 
Mrs.  Howard  O.  Sprogle 
Mrs.  Geo.  Steinmetz,  Pekin,  111. 

Miss  Jessie  Spafford,  Rockford, 

Mrs.  C.  E.  Smoot,  Petersburg,  111. 

Mrs.  L.  P.  Stanwood,  Evanston,  111. 

Miss  Emma  Steghagen 

Mrs.  Peter  Sissman 

Mrs.  Schacter 

Miss  Florence  Swain 

Mrs.  G.  A.  Soden 

Miss  Elizabeth  Scanlan 

Mrs.  Emma  Scott 

Mrs.  Bertram  Sippy 

Mrs.  Samuel  J.  Sherer 

Mrs.  C.  O.  Sethness 

Mrs.  Jas.  A.  Steven 

Mrs.  D.  J.  Splane 

Mrs.  Fred  Starr 

Mrs.  Edward  Sprochnle 

Mrs.  Ralph  N.  Shankland 

Mrs.  Chas.  F.  Swan 

Mrs.  A.  O.  Scholes 

Mrs.  Chas.  Smith 

Mrs.  W.  W.  Sammis 

Mrs.  T.  E.  Swiney 

Mrs.  Jeannette  T.  Singleton 

Mrs.  Walter  Stebbins 

Mrs.  Bertram  D.  Suker 

Mrs.  Louise  Schaffner 

Mrs.  Shannon 

Mrs.  Roger  Sullivan 

Mrs.  Thos.  W.  Smyth 

Mrs.  Frank  Sweenie 

Mrs.  J.  R.  Schofield 

Mrs.  Wm.  Smale 

Mrs.  John  J.  Sloan 

Mrs.  P.  C.  Schenkelberger 

Mrs.  J.  Shorndyke 

Mrs.  Thos.  L.  Scully 

Mrs.  Max  Schlesinger 

Mrs.  Julius  Stone 

Mrs.  G.  C.  Strauss 

Mrs.  Irene  Smith,  Waverly,  111. 

Mrs.  Zillah  Foster  Stevens,  .\lton,  111. 
Mrs.  Martha  Stocking 
Miss  Mary  Synon 

Mrs.  E.  Schulz,  Edison  Park,  111. 
Mrs.  Joseph  Sabath 
Mrs.  Geo.  Sublett 
Mrs.  D.  Sullivan 

Mrs.  P.  J.  Sullivan,  Oak  Park,  111. 

T. 

Mrs.  Maud  Cain  Taylor 

Mrs.  Harriette  Tavlor  Treadwell 

Mrs.  Grace  Wilbur  Trout 

Mrs.  Daniel  G.  Trench 

Mrs.  Lewis  Torbett 

Airs.  Alorton  W.  Thompson,  Danville, 
111. 

Mrs.  Chas.  W.  Thompson 
Airs.  Margaret  Taylor 


Aliss  Kate  Tehan 

Miss  Minnie  Thompson 

Airs.  A.  N.  Trompen 

Mrs.  E.  E.  R.  Treatman,  Wheaton,  111. 

Airs.  Alfred  Tilley,  Clinton,  111. 

Mrs.  F.  C.  Test 
111.  Airs.  Fred  Tice 

Mrs.  H.  F.  Thurston,  Winnetka,  111. 
Airs.  Edward  Tyrrell 
Airs.  Wm.  T.  Thomas 
Mrs.  Harry  Theobald 
Mrs.  Chas.  Trainer 
Airs.  Agnes  Marie  Trick 
Airs.  Jennie  Truax 
Aliss  Alice  Temple 
Airs.  Alary  Topping 
Airs.  Lewis  Tabor 
Miss  Grace  Temple 
Airs.  E.  B.  Tuteur 
Airs.  W.  Talbott 
Mrs.  John  Trainor 
Airs.  Wm.  Templeton 
Dean  Marian  Talbot 
Mrs.  Elnora  Thomson 
Airs.  M.  Tower 

U. 

Aliss  Updegraff 
Mrs.  Caroline  Updike 
Airs.  Henry  Utpatel 
Airs.  Russell  H.  Updyke 
Airs.  Wm.  C.  Undine 
Airs.  Alarie  Ulrich,  Peoria,  111. 

Airs.  Chas.  Ullman 
Airs.  A.  H.  Linger,  LaGrange,  111. 

V. 

Aliss  Harriett  Vittum 
Airs.  J.  J.  Van  Leuven 
Airs.  Harriet  Van  Der  Vaert 
Aliss  Alary  Vaughan 
Mrs.  Veiling 
Mrs.  W.  H.  Vesey 

Airs.  Carl  Vrooman,  Bloomington,  111. 
Mrs.  Walter  J.  VanDerslice,  Oak  Park, 

111. 

Airs.  Louis  Virling 

W. 

Airs.  Anne  J.  Wood,  Galesburg,  111. 

Mrs.  Albert  Watson,  Mt.  Vernon,  111. 
Mrs.  Adelaide  Waldorf 
Airs.  Conrad  Willems 
Airs.  S.  B.  Weinberger 
Mrs.  Virginia  Brooks  Washburne 
Mrs.  Chas.  Wilmot,  Oak  Park,  111. 

Airs.  Celia  Parker  Wooley 
Airs.  Fannie  Barrier  Williams 
Airs.  Mary  H.  Wilmarth 
Airs.  Thos.  Webb 
Aliss  Edith  Wyatt 
Airs.  A.  E.  Walker 

Mrs.  Alice  Bradford  Wiles,  River- 
side, 111. 

Mrs.  Geo.  Watkins 
Airs.  Joel  Watson,  Quincy,  111. 


944  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


Mrs.  Lloyd  C.  Whitman,  Winnetka, 
Mrs.  Ira  C.  Wood,  Winnetka,  111. 
Mrs.  Willoughby  Walling,  Hubbard 
Woods 

Mrs.  Lyman  A.  Watson 
Mrs.  Payson  Weld 
Mrs.  J.  W.  Wood 
Mrs.  Kate  E.  Walnath 
Mrs.  W.  D.  Wollesen 
Mrs.  O.  D.  Waite 
Mrs.  F.  K.  White 
Mrs.  W.  S.  Wallace 
Mrs.  T.  M.  Wright 
Mrs.  Chas.  W.  Waterbury,  Western 
Springs,  111. 

Mrs.  Rachel  Walton 

Mrs.  J.  L.  Worvell 

Mrs.  Myron  Wittemore,  Glen  Ellyn 

Mrs.  Widney 

Mrs.  Edward  Walker 

Miss  Adah  Whitcomb 

Mrs.  Thos.  F.  Wallace 

Mrs.  G.  E.  Wilkinson 

Mrs.  L.  J.  Willner 

Mrs.  J.  Edward  Wynne 

Mrs.  Chas.  Wilson 

Miss  Esther  Witkowsky 


111.  Mrs.  G.  R.  Wright 
Mrs.  Sigmund  Wolf 
Miss  Elizabeth  Wallace 
Dr.  A.  Lindsay  Wynekoop 
Mrs.  George  Welles 
Mrs.  Edith  Wells 
Mrs.  John  Worthy 
Mrs.  Fred  Wheaton,  Wheaton,  111. 

Miss  Grace  Wilson,  Wheaton,  111. 

Mrs.  Minnie  A.  White 
Miss  May  C.  Waters 
Mrs.  Harrison  G.  Wells 
Miss  Minna  K.  Weisenbach 
Mrs.  Charles  Washburne 
Mrs.  Stephen  A.  Wood 
Mrs.  Minnie  A.  White 

Y. 

Mrs.  Ella  Flagg  Young 

Mrs.  G.  A.  Young,  V^estern  Springs,  111. 

Mrs.  W.  F.  Young 

Mrs.  Lou  Ella  Young 

Z. 

Mrs.  Chas.  Zimmerman 
Dr.  Jean  Zimmerman 


IMPORTANCE  OF 
INQUIRY  TO 
THE  NATION 


Many  governors  and  legislatures  respond  to  Com- 
mittee’s invitation  to  participate  in  co-operative  cam- 
paign to  rid  country  of  social  evil. 


NOTE. — Your  committee  herewith  presents  letters  from  the 
chief  executives  of  over  two-thirds  of  the  American  commonwealths, 
in  response  to  your  committee’s  suggestion  of  uniform  action.  It  was 
a source  of  satisfaction  to  your  committee,  and  doubtless  to  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Honorable  Senate,  whose  instructions  were  followed,  that 
committees  were  actually  created  in  32  states  and  that  the  year  1913 
was  characterized  by  the  passage  of  more  legislation  for  the  suppres- 
sion of  vice  and  the  amelioration  of  the  condition  of  working  women 
than  had  been  enacted  by  the  state  legislatures  in  any  year  in  the  his- 
tory of  the  Republic.  Robert  W.  Bruere,  in  Harper’s  Magazine  for 
January,  1916,  says:  “The  emotional  appeal  in  behalf  of  motherhood 
that  followed  the  recent  revelations  of  commercialized  traffic  in  women 
had  much  to  do  with  the  enactment  of  eight  minimum  wage  laws  in 
the  single  year  1913.”  Another  writer  estimated  that  voluntary  action 
on  the  part  of  employers,  following  the  hearings  of  your  committee, 
had  raised  the  wages  of  500,000  working  women. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


947 


ALABAMA. 


Executive  Department, 
Montgomery,  Alabama. 

March  27,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Lieutenant  Governor  of  Illinois, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Dear  Sir: 

I am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  in  reference  to  the 
Commission  established  in  your  state  to  investigate  the  “White  Slave” 
traffic  in  Illinois.  I concur  with  you  that  the  most  effective  way  to 
abolish  for  all  time  this  horrible  traffic  would  be  to  have  a Commission 
like  that  in  Illinois  acting  along  similar  lines  in  every  state  in  the  Union. 
The  legislature  in  this  State  will  not  be  in  regular  session  until  1915,  but 
I shall  undertake  to  appoint  a voluntary  commission  to  gather  up  data 
on  this  important  question  so  as  to  secure  in  combination  with  other 
States  uniform  legislation  to  solve,  as  you  term,  this  great  American 
problem. 

Very  truly  yours, 

EMMET  O’NEAL, 
Governor  of  Alabama. 


ARIZONA. 

The  Governor’s  Office, 

State  House,  Phoenix, 

March  12,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Lieutenant  Governor  of  Illinois, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

My  dear  Governor: 

I am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  outlining  the  plans  which 
you  have  formulated  for  abolishing  white  slave  traffic  and  urging  me  to 
co-operate  with  you  in  this  work.  As  I stated  last  evening  in  the  telegram 
addressed  by  request  to  the  Chicago  Tribune,  I am  heartily  in  favor  of 
your  plan. 

I cannot,  of  course,  predict  just  what  the  attitude  of  the  State  Legis- 
lature will  be  toward  the  proposal  for  a State  Commission  to  investigate 
this  subject  in  co-operation  with  similar  commissions  of  other  States.  I 
am  strongly  of  the  opinion,  however,  that  this  matter  is  one  which  even 
a new  State  like  Arizona  should  deal  with  earnestly  rather  than  to  wait 
until  the  white  slave  traffic  presents  a truly  formidable  problem  as  it  does 
in  larger  centers  of  population  like  Chicago. 

I trust  that  in  due  time  you  will  set  forth  your  plans  to  me  more  fully, 
so  that  I may  assist  you  in  the  way  that  appears  most  effective. 

Very  sincerely, 

GEO.  M.  P.  HUNT, 
Governor  of  Arizona. 


948 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


CALIFORNIA. 

State  of  California, 
Executive  Office,  Sacramento, 

March.  28,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

My  dear  Sir: 

Your  recent  letter  relating  to  the  investigation  you  have  recently 
been  carrying  on  concerning  the  white  slave  traffic  and  informing  me  of 
the  purpose  of  your  Commission  to  continue  its  work  in  the  future,  has 
been  duly  received.  Permit  me  first  to  congratulate  you  upon  the  very 
excellent  results  thus  far  attained.  Your  Commission  has  awakened 
a nation-wide  interest  in  the  subject,  and  has  given  to  all  of  those  dealing 
with  this  and  kindred  subjects  added  zest  in  their  undertaking. 

I am  endeavoring  to  have  passed  by  the  present  legislature  a bill  for 
the  appointment  of  a Minimum  Wage  Commission,  and  it  is  my  hope  and 
design  that  this  commission  may  investigate  not  only  the  question  of 
minimum  wage,  but  every  related  subject,  and  that  it  may  act  in  conjunc- 
tion with  your  Commission,  and  others  that  may  be  appointed  in  various 
States. 

At  any  rate,  rely  upon  our  hearty  co-operation  in  the  work  that  you 
have  undertaken  and  please  feel  at  liberty  at  any  time  to  command  us. 

Sincerely, 

HIRAM  W.  JOHNSON, 

Governor  of  California. 


COLORADO. 


State  of  Colorado, 
Executive  Office,  Denver, 

March  12,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

I am  just  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  with  reference  to 
your  investigation  of  the  white  slave  traffic  in  Illinois.  I know  very  little 
concerning  your  line  of  procedure  in  this  matter  and  I feel  that  I should 
have  more  detailed  information  before  taking  any  steps  toward  an  investi- 
gation here. 

Assuring  you  of  my  desire  to  co-operate  with  your  State  in  all  matters 
concerning  the  general  welfare,  I am 

Sincerely  yours, 

E.  M.  AMMONS, 

. Governor  of  Colorado. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


949 


GEORGIA. 


State  of  Georgia, 
Executive  Department,  Atlanta, 

March  10,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Acting  Governor  of  Illinois, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


My  dear  Governor: 

I have  your  letter  of  March  7,  regarding  proposed  commissions  in 
the  various  States  to  investigate  the  “White  Slave”  traffic.  I will  be  pleased 
to  give  the  same  careful  consideration  in  connection  with  the  preparation 
of  my  message  to  the  forthcoming  session  of  the  General  Assembly. 

With  high  regard, 

Very  truly  yours, 

JOSEPH  M.  BROWN, 

Governor  of  Georgia. 


IDAHO. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  Idaho, 
Governor’s  Office,  Boise, 

March  14,  1913. 


My  dear  Governor: 

I am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  with  reference  to  the 
action  which  is  being  taken  by  your  State  for  the  control  of  the  “White 
Slave”  traffic. 

I note  also  your  suggestion  that  apparently  the  only  favorable  plan 
of  effectively  controlling  this  matter  is  by  similar  action  being  taken  by 
all  the  States  of  the  Union,  and  perhaps  by  uniform  legislation  on  this 
subject. 

This  is,  of  course,  a matter  in  which  we  are  all  interested,  and  to 
which  we  must  all  give  our  best  efforts  in  attempting  to  bring  about  a 
satisfactory  solution.  I am  inclined  to  believe  with  you  that  the  ultimate 
solution  of  this  question  will  be  along  the  lines  you  suggest. 

Yours  very  respectfully, 

JOHN  M.  HANES, 
Governor  of  Idaho. 


IOWA. 


State  of  Iowa, 

Executive  Department,  Des  Moines, 

March  7,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 


Dear  Governor: 

I am  just  now  in  receipt  of  your  letter  with  reference  to  the  investi- 
gation of  the  white  slave  traffic  in  the  State  of  Illinois.  You  say  that  you 


950 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


find  that  much  of  the  traffic  is  inter-state  and  that  the  rings  existing  and 
working  in  the  city  of  Chicago  are  working  hand  in  hand  with  similar 
rings  in  Iowa.  You  suggest  that  it  appears  to  you  that  about  the  only 
way  of  breaking  up  these  inter-state  arrangements  with  reference  to  this 
abominable  practice  would  be  to  have  similar  committees  or  commissions 
in,  I may  say,  all  of  the  States  so  that  there  could  be  co-operation  of 
these  commissions  and  among  the  States. 

I certainly  agree  with  you  that  this  would  seem  to  be  the  most  effec- 
tive, if  perhaps  not  the  only,  way  in  which  to  deal  with  the  matter.  I 
shall  be  very  glad  indeed  to  co-operate  with  you  in  any  way  that  I can. 
I do  not  know  but  assume  that  your  Commission  was  appointed  as  the 
result  of  some  statute  or  perhaps  a resolution  passed  by  the  legislature. 

I will  take  this  matter  up  with  some  of  the  leading  members  of  our 
legislature,  now  in  session,  and  think  perhaps  I can  have  the  matter 
eventuate  in  the  appointment  of  a commission  here  which  I have  no  doubt 
would  be  very  glad  to  co-operate  with  you  and  with  like  commissions  in 
other  States. 

Very  truly  yours, 

G.  W.  CLARKE, 

Governor  of  Iowa. 


KENTUCKY. 

Commonwealth  of  Kentucky, 
Executive  Department,  Frankfort, 

March  11,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir; 

Yours  of  the  7th  inst.  was  received  this  morning. 

I note  your  statement,  that  during  the  first  session  of  a Commission, 
consisting  of  four  Senators,  with  the  Lieutenant  Governor  acting  as  chair- 
man, to  investigate  the  white  slave  traffic  in  Illinois,  testimonj-  indicated 
that  much  of  this  traffic  is  interstate,  etc.  You  also  state  that  you  are 
of  opinion  that  the  most  effective  way  to  abolish  this  despicable  traffic 
is  to  have  a commission  like  that  in  Illinois  acting  along  similar  lines 
in  every  State  in  the  Union. 

I shall  be  very  glad  to  co-operate  with  you  and  all  others  in  this 
matter,  and  be  glad  to  do  all  in  my  power  to  suppress  this  traffic.  The 
Legislature  of  Kentucky  will  not  meet  again  until  the  first  ^Monda^-^  in 
next  January,  and,  therefore,  I am  not  able  to  take  any  steps  in  this 
matter  at  the  present  time  through  the  legislature,  but  I will  save  your 
letter  and  take  such  action  as  seems  proper  when  the  legislature  meets. 

Respectfulh", 

JAMES  B.  McCreary, 

Governor  of  Kentucky. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


951 


MAINE. 


State  of  Maine, 

• Executive  Chamber,  Augusta, 

March  12,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

Your  letter  of  March  7th  received  in  regard  to  the  investigation  of 
the  “White  Slave”  traffic  now  going  on  in  your  State. 

In  reply  will  say  that  I have  no  information  that  anything  of  the  kind 
is  going  on  in  Maine.  As  you  know,  we  have  no  large  cities,  and  my 
attention  has  not  been  called  to  this  matter  as  existing  by  any  particular 
organizations  devoted  to  the  improvement  of  moral  conditions  within 
our  state.  Our  moral  problem  is  with  the  so-called  Prohibitory  Law. 

Personally,  I am  very  much  in  sympathy  with  your  work,  and  while 
our  legislature  will  probably  adjourn  in  two  weeks,  and  there  is  little  time 
for  considering  this  subject  as  a matter  of  legislation,  I should  be  pleased 
to  do  anything  I can  to  help  along  the  object  you  are  working  to  accom- 
plish. If  you  can  suggest  anything  that  I can  do,  I will  be  very  glad,  as 
the  Chief  Executive  of  this  State,  to  help  you. 

Yours  truly, 

WILLIAM  T.  HANES, 

Governor  of  Maine. 


MARYLAND. 

Executive  Department, 

Annapolis,  Maryland, 

March  13,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

1 am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  dated  March  7,  1913,  and  in  reply  will 
say  that  I am  entirely  in  sympathy  with  the  purposes  of  the  Commission, 
consisting  of  four  Illinois  Senators,  with  the  Lieutenant  Governor,  your- 
self, acting  as  Chairman,  in  its  investigation  of  the  white  slave  traffic. 

Some  weeks  ago  I appointed  a Commission,  upon  my  own  initiative, 
of  fifteen  representative  citizens  of  Baltimore,  to  study  the  social  evil 
in  all  of  its  aspects.  The  personnel  of  this  commission,  including  as  it 
does,  some  of  the  best  known  professional  men,  not  only  in  our  own 
State,  but  in  the  country,  insures  a character  of  investigation  and  report 
along  original  and  constructive  lines.  It  is  their  intention  to  bring  to  the 
study  of  this  question  the  full  measure  of  their  talents,  and  to  do  the  work 
in  a manner  not  herebefore  attempted.  There  has  been  no  appropriation 
for  this  purpose,  nor  are  there  State  funds  available  for  the  use  of  this 
Commission.  They  expect  to  be  financially  assisted  by  voluntary  contri- 
butions, and  have  met  with  quite  a little  success  in  securing  these,  and 
hope  shortly  to  go  into  the  actual  work  contemplated  with  vigor. 

The  chairman  of  this  commission  is  Dr.  George  Walker,  1 E.  Center 
Street,  Baltimore,  Maryland.  You  can  communicate  with  him,  or  with  me. 


952 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


and  either  of  us  will  be  only  too  glad  to  lend  you  such  assistance  as  may 
lie  within  our  power;  but  as  this  work  is  being  done  through  this  commis- 
sion, with  what  assistance  I may  be  able  to  render  in  my  personal  or 
official  capacity,  you  would  probably  receive  more  satisfactory  attention 
should  you  address  your  communications  directly  to  Dr.  Walker. 

In  the  meantime,  I will  refer  your  letter  to  him  and  have  him  com- 
municate directly  with  you. 

Very  truly  yours, 

P.  E.  GOLDSBOROUGH, 

Governor  of  Maryland. 


MASSACHUSETTS. 

Commonwealth  of  Massachusetts, 

Executive  Department,  Boston, 

March  12,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

I have  your  letter  of  March  7th,  in  relation  to  your  current  investi- 
gation of  the  so-called  white  slave  traffic  in  Illinois  and  suggesting  the 
advisability  of  creating  an  investigating  commission  similar  to  yours  in 
other  States. 

In  reply,  I have  to  say  that  a resolve  has  already  passed  the  Senate 
of  Massachusetts  and  is  now  pending  in  the  House  of  Representatives, 
“to  provide  for  an  investigation  of  the  white  slave  traffic,  so-called,” 
which,  if  enacted,  will  authorize  the  Governor  and  Council  to  appoint  a 
commission  of  five  persons  with  ample  authority  for  the  purpose. 

I have  no  doubt  that  this  commission  will  co-operate  as  fully  as  possi- 
ble with  your  Commissioners  in  a joint  effort  to  eradicate  this  form 
of  vice. 

I wdll  instruct  the  chairman  of  the  commission  to  notify  you  of  his 
appointment  when  and  if  the  House  of  Representatives  passes  this  resolve 
(Senate  No.  399). 

Yours  very  truly, 

E.  N.  FOSS. 

Governor  of  Massachusetts. 


{The  following  letter  from  the  civic  secretary  of  the  Boston  City 
Club  indicates  the  sentiment  of  co-operation  in  that  state:] 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir : 

During  your  recent  visit  to  Washington,  I wired  to  a representative 
of  one  of  the  civic  'organizations  to  invite  your  Commission  to  make  its 
headquarters  at  the  Boston  City  Club  when  you  visited  Boston.  Later  I 
received  a wire  saying  that  you  were  to  return  to  Springfield  immediately, 
but  were  to  come  to  Boston  later. 

May  I extend,  in  behalf  of  the  Club,  an  invitation  for  3'ou  to  use  the 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


953 


Boston  City  Club  upon  the  occasion  of  your  visit,  and  may  we  also 
arrange  for  an  evening  meeting  at  which  you  may  meet  the  men  of 
Boston  particularly  interested  in  the  work  of  your  Commission? 

In  order  to  make  the  necessary  plans  for  such  a meeting,  I would 
like  to  have  word  from  you  as  early  as  may  be  convenient,  as  to  the 
details  of  the  plans  for  your  visit. 

Yours  very  truly, 

ADDISON  L.  WINSHIP. 

Civic  Secretary  of  Boston  City  Club. 


MICHIGAN. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  Michigan, 
Executive  Chamber,  Lansing, 

March  10,  1913. 


My  Dear  Sir: 

My  secretary  has  already  acknowledged  your  letter  of  March  5th,  in 
relation  to  investigating  “White  Slave”  traffic.  As  Governor  of  Michigan, 
I appreciate  the  importance  of  such  an  investigation.  Within  the  next 
forty-eight  hours  the  present  legislature  will  formulate  some  resolution 
or  bill  whereby  this  work  may  go  on  in  the  State  of  Michigan.  I will  do 
the  best  I can  to  have  my  stenographer  send  you  a report  of  such  action 
as  the  Michigan  Legislature  deems  it  best  to  take. 

Thanking  jou  for  your  letter,  I am 

Sincerely  yours, 

WOODBRIDGE  N.  FERRIS, 

Governor  of  Michigan. 


[Again,  on  March  2^,  /p/j.  Governor  Ferris  wrote:] 

My  dear  Mr.  O’Hara: 

I have  your  letter  of  March  20th  in  relation  to  the  white  slave  traffic. 
We  now  have  a bill  pending  in  relation  to  this  subject.  Just  as  soon  as 
complete  action  is  taken,  I will  report  to  you.  I am  going  to  try  to  mail 
you,  under  separate  cover,  a copy  of  this  bill. 

Thanking  j'-ou  for  your  progressive  work  in  this  line  of  investigation, 
I remain. 

Sincerely  yours, 

WOODBRIDGE  N.  FERRIS. 

Governor  of  Michigan. 


MINNESOTA. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  Minnesota, 
Executive  Department,  St.  Paul, 

March  12,  1913. 


My  Dear  Sir: 

Replying  to  yours  of  the  7th  inst.,  I beg  to  enclose  you  copy  of  letter 


954 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


of  transmittal  which  I have  today  sent  to  the  two  Houses  of  the  Legisla- 
ture, and  which  I hope  will  receive  favorable  attention. 

Yours  very  truly, 

ADOLPH  O.  EBERHART, 

Governor  of  Minnesota. 


( Enclosure.) 


March  12,  1913. 


Hon.  J.  A.  A.  Burnquist, 
President  of  the  Senate, 
St.  Paul,  Minnesota. 


Sir: 

I am  in  receipt  of  a communication  from  the  Lieutenant  Governor  of 
the  State  of  Illinois,  acting  as  Chairman  of  a Commission  to  investigate 
the  “White  Slave  Traffic”  in  the  State  of  Illinois,  a copy  of  which  is 
herewith  transmitted. 

The  co-operation  of  the  various  States  in  the  enforcement  of  the 
Mann  Act  is  of  utmost  importance  and  I,  therefore,  transmit  wnth  my 
approval,  the  communication  of  the  Lieutenant  Governor  of  Illinois  for 
your  consideration. 

Respectfully  transmitted, 

ADOLPH  O.  EBERHART, 

Governor  of  Minnesota. 


MISSISSIPPI. 

Executive  Department, 

Jackson,  Mississippi, 

March  11,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

My  Dear  Sir: 

I beg  to  acknowledge  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  in  regard 
to  the  work  being  done  b^^  the  Commission,  of  which  you  are  Chairman, 
in  the  investigation  of  the  “White  Slave”  traffic  in  Illinois.  There  is 
much  force  in  your  suggestion  that  other  States  create  a commission 
similar  to  the  one  you  have  in  Illinois  and  that  through  their  combined 
efforts,  interchange  of  ideas  and  facts,  that  the  vile  traffic  in  women  could 
be  finally  abolished. 

Our  legislature  does  not  meet  until  January  of  next  3'ear.  ^Meantime 
I will  carefully  consider  j^our  suggestions  and  bring  this  matter  before  our 
legislature. 

As  far  as  can  be  ascertained  this  traffic  does  not  exist  in  ^lississippi, 
at  least  to  any  appreciable  extent,  but  the  ramifications  might  possibly 
extend  from  the  larger  cities  in  other  States. 

Yours  very  truR, 

EARL  BREWER, 
Governor  of  Mississippi. 


Co-ottKATioN  IN  Other  States 


955 


MISSOURI. 

Executive  Offices,  State  of  Missouri, 

City  of  Jefferson, 

March  11,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

For  the  Governor,  I beg  to  acknowledge  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the 
7th  inst,  and  same  will  have  his  attention  and  careful  consideration. 

Very  truly  yours, 

JOHN  M.  ATKINSON, 
Secretary  to  the  Governor. 


MONTANA. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Executive  Office, 

Helena,  Montana, 

March  13,  1913. 


My  Dear  Governor: 

I have  your  letter  of  March  7th,  relative  to  the  proposed  Commission 
to  look  into  the  “White  Slave”  matter,  and  in  reply  will  say  that  I shall 
be  pleased  to  co-operate  in  any  way  possible. 

Kindly  keep  me  advised  as  to  your  method  of  procedure. 

Yours  truly, 

S.  V.  STEWART, 
Governor  of  Montana. 


NEW  MEXICO. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  New  Mexico, 

Santa  Ee, 
March  12,  1913. 


Dear  Sir: 

I have  your  letter  of  the  7th  relative  to  “White  Slave”  traffic  generally. 
Personally,  I am  quite  willing  to  co-operate  and  do  anything  I can  to 
assist  in  this  matter.  I think,  however,  that  it  is  very  doubtful  if  New 
Mexico  as  a State  can  be  counted  on  for  very  much.  A bill  was  before 
the  last  session  of  our  legislature,  also  one  before  this  session.  The  legis- 
lature will  adjourn  Friday,  so  whatever  action  may  be  taken  will  have  to 
be  by  myself  personally. 

Yours  truly, 

w.  c.  McDonald, 

Governor  of  New  Mexico. 


956 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


NEW  YORK. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  New  York, 
Executive  Chamber,  Albany, 

March  11,  1913. 


My  Dear  Governor: 

Your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  just  received.  I note  carefully  all  you 
say,  and  you  can  depend  on  me  to  co-operate  with  you  and  all  other  good 
citizens  in  every  way  I possibly  can  to  stamp  out  the  White  Slave  traffic. 

With  best  wishes  to  you  an^  Governor  Dunne,  and  hoping  to  hear 
from  you  now  and  then,  believe  me,  as  ever. 

Very  sincerely  vour  friend, 

WM.  SULZER, 
Governor  of  New  York. 


[The  following  invitation  from  the  City  Club  of  New  York,  55 
ll^est  Forty-fourth  street,  is  an  indication  of  the  spirit  of  co-operation 
in  that  metropolis :] 


The  City  Club  of  New  York, 

55  AVest  Forty-fourth  Street, 

March  13,  1913. 


Lieutenant  Governor  O’Hara, 


Springfield,  Illinois. 


My  Dear  Sir: 

The  City  Club  of  New  York,  a non-partisan  municipal  organization, 
with  a membership  of  approximately  1,300  and  a fine  clubhouse  in  the 
heart  of  the  Borough  of  Manhattan,  invites  you  and  the  other  members 
of  your  Commission  to  make  such  use  of  the  house,  for  conferences  and 
the  like,  as  you  may  find  desirable  on  your  proposed  visit  to  New  York 
next  week.  The  club  is  deeplj^  interested  in  the  subject  of  vice,  has  a 
strong  committee  on  the  police,  and  its  secretary  is  the  secretary  of  the 
Citizens’  Committee  in  New  York  dealing  with  that  subject.  Many  of 
the  important  city  officials  are  members  of  the  club. 

^*erv  respectfully  yours, 

CHARLES  H.  STRONG. 

President. 


NORTH  CAROLINA. 

State  of  North  Carolina, 

Executive  Department,  Raleigh, 

March  13,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Governor: 

Certainl}"  all  the  States  should  co-operate  to  put  an  end  to  the  white 
slave  traffic,  which  is  one  of  the  gravest  crimes  known  to  our  civilization. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


957 


Our  general  assembly  is  not  in  session  at  present,  and  I have  no  power 
to  appoint  the  commission  that  you  suggest. 

Yours  truly, 

LOCKE  CRAIG, 
Governor  of  North  Carolina. 


OHIO. 


State  of  Ohio, 

Executive  Department,  Columbus, 

March  17,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

My  Dear  Governor: 

The  pressure  of  official  duties  here  accounts  for  this  belated  response 
to  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  However,  my  position  with  reference  to 
the  “White  Slave”  question  was  expressed  in  a telegram  sent  to  the 
Chicago  Tribune  in  response  to  an  inquiry.  We  are  going  into  the  matter 
here,  and  hope  to  work  something  out. 

Very  truly  yours, 

JAMES  M.  COX, 
Governor  of  Ohio. 


OKLAHOMA. 

State  of  Oklahoma, 

Oklahoma  City, 
March  12,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

I have  your  favor  of  March  7th  calling  attention  to  the  work  being 
done  by  your  Committee  dealing  with  the  “White  Slave”  traffic  in  Illinois. 

I am  thoroughly  in  sympathy  with  any  movement  that  will  tend  to 
stamp  out  this  crime,  and  if  there  is  anything  that  I can  do  that  will  aid 
in  bringing  about  this  desired  result,  I will  be  glad  to  contribute  my  efforts. 

Yours  truly, 

LEE  CRUCE, 
Governor  of  Oklahoma. 


958 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


OREGON. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  Oregon, 
Executive  Department,  Salem, 

March  14,  1913. 


My  Dear  Mr.  O’Hara; 

I am  in  receipt  of  yours  of  March  7th,  in  regard  to  the  co-operation 
of  this  State  with  the  State  of  Illinois  and  your  Commission,  relative  to 
the  regulation  of  the  “White  Slave’’  traffic. 

I am  enclosing  you  a copy  of  the  Minimum  Wage  Law  enacted  b}' 
the  legislature  just  adjourned. 

I would  also  cite  you  to  the  Oregon  White  Slave  Act,  Chapter  68  of 
the  General  Laws  of  Oregon  for  1911.  This  is  an  act  modeled  after  the 
Mann  White  Slave  Act.  The  prosecuting  officers  of  this  State  are  now 
co-operating  and  will  continue  to  co-operate  with  the  federal  authorities 
in  a strict  enforcement  of  this  statute,  and  I trust  that  in  this  way  the 
State  of  Oregon  will  be  able  to  do  much  in  conjunction  with  the  excellent 
work  which  your  Commission  has  attempted  in  the  State  of  Illinois. 

Wishing  you  the  utmost  success  in  your  work,  I am. 

Very  truly  yours, 

OSWALD  WEST. 

Governor  of  Oregon. 


RHODE  ISLAND. 

State  of  Rhode  Island  and  Providence  Plantations, 

Executive  Department,  Providence, 

March  15,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

Your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.,  addressed  to  his  Excellency  the  Governor, 
is  received  at  this  department  and  will  be  brought  to  his  attention  at  the 
€rst  opportunity. 

Very  respectfully  yours, 

EDW.  P.  TOBIN, 
Executive  Secretarj-. 


SOUTH  CAROLINA. 


State  of  South  Carolina, 
Executive  Department,  Columbia, 

March  12,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Dear  Sir: 

In  reply  to  your  letter  of  March  7,  I desire  to  state  that  South 
Carolina  has  not  been  troubled  with  violations  of  the  “White  Slave” 
Act  to  any  appreciable  extent,  so  far  as  I know,  but  as  the  “White  Slave” 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


959 


traffic  seems  to  be  a serious  menace  in  many  other  sections  of  the  country, 
it  seems  to  me  that  uniform  legislation  by  the  States,  working  in  conjunc- 
tion with  the  Federal  authorities,  as  suggested  in  your  letter,  might  prove 
effective. 

If  there  is  any  way  I can  be  of  assistance  to  you  in  the  matter,  I 
would  be  glad  to  hear  from  you. 

Very  respectfully, 

COLE  L.  BLEASE, 
Governor  of  South  Carolina. 


SOUTH  DAKOTA. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Executive  Department, 

State  of  South  Dakota,  Pierre, 

March  15,  1913. 


Dear  Sir: 

I have  the  honor  to  acknowledge  receipt  of  your  letter  of  recent  date. 
I note  with  interest  your  statements  in  regard  to  the  work  of  the  Legisla- 
tive Commission  headed  by  yourself,  now  investigating  the  “White  Slave” 
traffic,  especially  as  it  centers  in  Chicago. 

Our  legislature  recently  adjourned  and  will  not  be  in  session  again 
until  January,  1915.  There  is  no  provision  for  such  investigating  com- 
mission as  you  refer  to.  Having  no  large  city  in  our  State,  the  conditions 
in  regard  to  this  traffic  and  its  attendant  evils  are  not  so  acute  here.  Our 
people,  however,  are,  and  will  be,  very  much  interested  in  the  investigation 
and  disclosures  made  by  your  Commission  and  others. 

I regard  this  traffic  in  girls  and  women,  and  the  shameful  conditions 
that  go  with  and  follow  from  it,  as  amongst  the  greatest  evils  of  the 
day,  and  a reproach  and  disgrace  to  our  civilization,  and  I shall  be  glad 
to  co-operate  in  any  practical,  effective  movement  looking  to  its  suppression. 

Yours  sincerely, 

F.  M.  BYRNE, 
Governor  of  South  Dakota. 


TENNESSEE. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Executive  Chamber, 

State  of  Tennessee,  Nashville, 

March  13,  1913. 


Dear  Sir: 

Rej)lying  to  your  favor  of  the  7th  inst.,  addressed  to  Governor  Hooper, 
with  reference  to  commission  to  investigate  the  white  slave  traffic  in 
Illinois,  and  asking  his  co-operation  in  the  appointment  of  a like  commis- 
sion in  Tennessee,  I beg  leave  to  advise  that  this  matter  will  be  called  to 
his  attention  as  soon  as  he  returns  to  the  office. 

Yours  very  truly, 

GEO.  C.  TAYLOR, 

Secretary. 


960 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


[An  indication  of  the  spirit  of  co-operation  in  Tennessee  is  seen  in 
the  following  telegram  from  H.  B.  Carr,  Vanderbilt  University,  Nash- 
ville, Tenn.:] 


Nashville,  Tennessee,  March  25,  1913. 
Lieutenant  Governor  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Shall  appreciate  information  regarding  Illinois  Senate  Commission  on 
white  slavery.  Was  it  appointed  by  Governor  or  Lieutenant  Governor, 
or  elected  by  Senate?  Why  does  it  contain  no  members  of  Lower  House? 
How  large  is  it?  In  your  opinion,  would  such  a commission  be  advisable 
for  Tennessee?  Wire  collect. 

H.  B.  CARR, 
Vanderbilt  University. 


[Chairman  O’Hara’s  reply  to  the  above  telegram:] 

Springfield,  Illinois,  March  27,  1913. 


H.  B.  Carr, 

Vanderbilt  University, 

Nashville,  Tennessee. 

Illinois  White  Slave  Committee  w'as  created  by  Senate  resolution  pro- 
viding for  four  members,  besides  Lieutenant  Governor  as  Chairman.  Man}' 
Illinois  committees  have  been  from  one  House  or  the  other.  It  seems  to 
us  that  committee  of  three  or  five  can  do  more  effective  work  than  larger 
body.  I certainly  believe  that  a similar  commission  for  Tennessee  would 
be  decidedly  advisable. 

BARRATT  O’HARA. 


TEXAS. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Governor’s  Office, 

Austin,  Texas, 
March  12,  1913. 


Dear  Sir: 

Your  letter  of  March  7th  reached  me  this  morning.  I would  be  glad 
to  see  laws  perfected  for  the  protection  of  the  young  women  whom  you 
seem  to  be  trying  to  shield  and  protect  in  your  State.  I approved  a 
very  drastic  bill  passed  by  the  last  session  of  the  legislature  on  this 

subject.  I beg  to  call  your  attention  to  Chapter  , General  L^ws,  of 

the  Thirty-second  Legislature,  which  I am  sure  you  will  find  in  the 
office  of  your  Secretary  of  State.  After  you  have  read  this  statute  I 
will  be  glad  to  hear  from  you  further  as  to  what  amendment  you  think- 
ought  to  be  made  to  it. 

Yours  trulv. 

O.  B.  COLQUITT, 
Governor  of  Texas. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


961 


UTAH. 

. Executive  Office, 

State  of  Utah,  Salt  Lake  City, 

April  1,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

My  Dear  Governor: 

Your  communication  of  March  7th  was  received  by  me  too  late  to 
permit  of  presentation  of  its  contents  to  the  legislature  of  this  State 
before  its  adjournment. 

I am  in  hearty  sympath’'  with  your  suggestion  that  commissions  be 
appointed  in  the  various  States  for  the  purpose  of  investigating  and 
rooting  out  of  the  white  slave  evil  and  regret  exceedingly  that  your  sug- 
gestion was  not  received  in  time  to  secure  legislative  action  thereon. 

-In  the  meantime,  for  your  information,  I beg  to  state  that  at  the 
legislative  session  of  1911  a pandering  law  was  passed.  The  Federal 
officials  as  well  as  the  local  officials  have  been  active  in  their  campaign 
against  this  vice  and  you  maj"  be  assured  that  there  is  a strong  sentiment 
aroused  in  this  State  against  this  evil. 

If  you  can  offer  any  suggestions  as  to  further  action  to  be  taken  in 
this  State,  I will  be  pleased  to  receive  them. 

Very  truly  yours, 

WILLIAM  SPRY, 

Governor  of  Utah. 


VERMONT. 

Executive  Department, 

State  of  Vermont,  Proctorsville,  Vt., 

March  31,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Sir: 

Your  favor  of  the  13th  relative  to  the  “White  Slave”  traffic  in  Illinois 
is  at  hand.  I can  understand  that  a commission  in  each  State  operating 
and  acting  to  a common  end  would  be  of  material  service  along  the  lines 
you  suggested. 

Ver3r  truly  yours, 

ALLEN  M.  FLETCHER. 

Governor  of  Vermont. 

VIRGINIA. 

Commonwealth  of  Virginia, 

Governor’s  Office,  Richmond, 

March  12,  1913. 

Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

Dear  Governor  O’Hara: 

I have  yours  of  March  7th,  and  whik  according  to_  the  definition 
given  to  the  “White  Slave”  traffic,  there  is  little,  if  any,  of  it  in  this  State, 


962 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


yet  there  are  practices  which  ought  to  be  corrected,  and  I stand  ready  to 
co-operate  with  you  in  every  possible  way  for  the  protection  of  the  purity 
of  our  girls  and  boys.  Our  State  Board  of  Charities  and  Corrections,  1 
am  sure,  will  be  glad  to  make  such  inquiries  as  your  Commission  may 
think  necessary.  Rev.  J.  T.  Mastin,  of  this  city,  is  the  Secretary,  and 
you  will  find  him  a most  efficient  man. 

Verv  truly  yours, 

WM.  HODGES  MANN,^ 

Governor  of  Virginia. 


WASHINGTON. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


State  of  Washington, 

Office  of  Governor,  Olympia, 

April  8,  1913. 


My  Dear  Sir; 

Your  letter  of  the  7th  ult.  came  to  hand  and  I read  what  j'ou  wrote 
concerning  the  formation  of  a commission  in  connection  with  the  fight 
against  the  “White  Slave”  traffic  carefully.  I have  been  extrernely  busy 
ever  since  the  adjournment  of  the  legislature  and  am  just  leaving  for  a 
trip  throughout  the  State  to  visit  the  various  State  Institutions,  making 
it  possible  for  me  to  give  attention  to  this  matter.  I am  filing  your  letter 
and  will  take  it  up  at  a later  date. 

Sincerely  yours, 

ERNEST  LISTER. 

Governor  of  Washington. 


WEST  VIRGINIA. 

State  of  West  Virginia, 
Governor’s  Offices,  Charleston, 

March  11,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 

Springfield,  Illinois. 

I am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.,  ^lative  to  appointing 
a commission  to  investigate  the  “White  Slave  traffic.  In  reply  ^eg 
say  that  I am  in  sympathy  with  any  move  which  has  for  its  purpose  the 
destruction  of  this  evil,  and  believe  that  the  States,  by  proper  legislation, 
can  aid  very  materially  in  making  the  Federal  law  more  effective. 

I am  of  the  opinion  that  your  idea  of  the  several  States  appointing  a 
commission  is  a good  one.  and  with  that  end  in  view  shall  give  it  turther 
thought  and  investigation.  At  all  times  I shall  be  ^ad  to  co-operate 
you  m helping  to  bring  about  more  uniform  and  effective  laws  to  handle 

this  vice.  , 

ours  verv  sincereljq 

H.  D.  HATFIELD, 
Governor  of  West  Virginia. 


Co-operation  in  Other  States 


963 


WISCONSIN. 


Hoii.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Executive  Chamber, 
Madison,  Wisconsin, 

March  11,  1913. 


Dear  Sir: 

In  repfir  to  your  esteemed  favor  of  the  6th  inst.,  I am  directed  by 
Governor  McGovern  to  assure  you  that  the  State  of  Wisconsin  is  in  full 
sympathy  with  j'our  State  in  the  investigation  of  vice  causes  and  conditions. 
Your  letter  has  been  called  to  the  attention  of  interested  and  influential 
parties  who  are  already  taking  steps  looking  to  the  furthering  of  the  great 
reform  in  which  you  are  engaged.  You  are  to  be  highly  congratulated 
on  the  vigorous  manner  in  which  you  are  prosecuting  this  matter. 

Very  truly  yours, 

DUNCAN  McGregor, 

Private  Secretary. 


WYOMING. 


The  State  of  Wyoming, 
Executive  Department,  Cheyenne, 

March  10,  1913. 


Hon.  Barratt  O’Hara, 
Springfield,  Illinois. 


Dear  Sir; 

Your  letter  of  the  7th  inst.  interests  me  very  much.  However,  our 
legislature  has  adjourned  now  for  two  years  and  nothing  can  be  done  in  a 
legislative  way.  Probably  nothing  would  have  been  done  even  if  the 
matter  had  been  suggested  in  time,  as  the  legislature  was  not  disposed  to 
act  upon  new  things. 

I believe  you  are  getting  to  the  root  of  the  evil.  There  are  bad  men 
and  bad  women  even  where  they  are  getting  good  wages,  but  starvation 
wages  must  be  a great  incentive  for  women  who  are  otherwise  good,  to 
fall  down.  Your  investigations  in  Chicago  are  very  interesting,  and  the 
heads  of  great  houses  that  you  have  examined  could  just  as  easily  pay 
their  saleswomen,  errand-women  and  charwomen  better  wages  without 
materially  affecting  the  dividends;  and  whether  or  not  it  does  affect  the 
dividends,  the  reform  you  are  undertaking  in  Illinois  is  worthy  of  their 
encouragement. 

You  have  my  best  wishes  in  your  work. 

Very  truly  yours, 

JOSEPH  M.  CAREY, 
Governor  of  Wyoming. 


INDEX  TO  TESTIMONY  AND  WITNESSES. 


CAFES  AND  CABARET  RESTAURANTS: 

(See  also  Dance  Halls  and  Public  Dancing.) 

Testimony. 

Novak,  Robert  C 448 

Brittain,  Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe 466 

T , Mrs.  J.  D 471 

G , L 472 

Mueller,  H.  H 473 

Carvin,  Jack 469,  474 

Coan,  M.  Blair 475 

Harding,  John  J 475 

Farley,  M.  J 476 

“Natalie”  476 

Ferrari,  Martin 477 

Frank,  Abe 478 

W , E 481 

Tosaphare,  Maude  T 481 

H , H 481 

Richter,  Chas.  M 483 

Gregg,  C 483 

Stimpson,  O.  B 484 

Wilson,  George  H 485 

Wilson,  Dora 485 

Jones,  Roy 503 

Fozzo,  R 511 

Described  in  testimony  of  witnesses: 

Casino  Cafe,  Chicago 215 

Jones  (Roy)  Cafe,  Chicago 466,  469,  471,  473,  475,  476,  477,  503 

Maxim’s  Cafe,  Chicago 449 

Rector’s  Restaurant,  Chicago 476,  478 

States  Restaurant,  Chicago 484,  485 

Note : Cafes  and  cabaret  restaurants  in  other  Illinois  cities  are  covered 
in  reports  of  the  Committee’s  investigators,  but  names  are  withheld  be- 
cause opportunity  was  not  had  to  verify  said  reports  (see  page  807)'. 

■‘CALL  SYSTEM,”  THE : 

Testimony. 

Buzzell,  Miss  Belle 173,  174 

M , M 580 

Patton,  Florence 583 

Underwood,  John  H 589 

Golden,  Rev.  John  R 600 

COST  OF  LIVING  TO  INDIVIDUAL  WORKERS : 

(See  Minimum  Wage.) 

COST  OF  FAMILY  SUPPORT:  ' 

(See  Minimum  Wage.) 

CORPORATIONS,  PROFITS  OF .- 68S 


965 


966 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


DANCE  HALLS  AND  PUBLIC  DANCING: 


Testimony. 

Brittain,  Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe 451,  431 

Yondorf,  August  437 

Bowen,  Mrs.  Louise  453 

Abe,  Frank  479 

losaphare,  Maude  J 482 

Stimpson,  O.  B 484 

Wilson,  George  H 485 

Wilson,  Dora  485 

Bement,  Frank  487 

Bassett,  Walter  490 

McGuire,  F.  T 493 

Johnson,  Godfrey  496 

Fozzo,  R 511 

Quale,  Dr.  C 512 

Schoen,  Wm.  J 514 

Shemberg,  Wm 544,  516 

Williams,  Rev.  Elmer  522 

Field,  Ed 544 

Phelps,  R.  B 546 

Long,  Mrs.  Margaret  551 

Olson,  Frank  554 

Taylor,  Prof.  Graham  667 

Halls  and  public  dances  described  bj-  witnesses: 

Chicago. 

Columbia  Hall  493 

Dearborn  Club  Hall  496,  552,  553 

Dreamland  Hall  432,  487 

East  End  Hall  490 

Felicity  Club  Hall  554 

Freiburg’s  Hall  504,  551 

Germania  Hall  436,  461 

Hesperian  Hall  4o9 

Rector’s  Restaurant  476,  478 

Rod’s  Hall  517,  5M 

Schemberg’s  Hall  516,  oo4 

Schiller  Hall  4o9 

Schlitz  Hall  457 

Schoenhofen  Hall  514 

States  Restaurant  484,  48.-' 

Vermont  Hall  I 431,513,546,552 

Yondorf’s  Hall  436' 

DOMESTIC  SERVICE: 

Its  unpopularity  as  a field  for  wage-earning. 

Birney,  Mrs.  A.  A 368 

A recruiting  field  for  vice. 

Bowen,  Mrs.  Louise  

Finch,  G.  Stanley  304 


EMPLOYMENT  AGENCIES: 
Testimony. 

Beall,  Hon.  Edmond  F.  . . 
Tollman,  George  

HOTELS: 

Testimonv. 

S , AI 

Tollman,  George  

iMcHenry,  E.  L 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


967 


(Hotels — Continued) 

Hardin,  Fred  H 538 

C , Mrs.  W 540 

C Mr 541 

L , A ■ 542 

J , E 542 

W , John  543 

H , Marie  543 

Venable,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  C.  W 603,  566 

Clybourne,  Grace  569,  577 

M , T 573 

S , H 575 

M^ , M 579 

Wineteer,  Chas.  G 592 

Little,  G.  J 595 

Golden,  Rev.  John  R 599 

Phillips,  David.  L 604 

Hotels  described  in  testimony  of  witnesses: 

Chicago. 

Bresland  429 

Cadillac  210 

Casino  215 

Cecil  554 

LaSalle  House 443 

LaPlant  429 

Marlborough  504,  554 

Morrison  429 

Normandy  - 533,  540,  541,  542,  543,  553 

Royal  462 

Superior  425,  554 

Springfield. 

Cliff  577,  578 

Palace  579,  587 

Park  562,  577,  587,  592 

Victor  .562,  566,  570,  575,  587,  595,  599,  603 

(Hotels  in  other  Illinois  cities  are  covered  in  reports  of  the 
Committee’s  investigators,  but  names  are  withheld  be- 
cause opportunity  was  not  had  to  verify  said  reports. 

See  p.  807.) 


LIQUOR — in  resorts  and  its  relation  to  the  vice  problem: 
Testimony. 


Farwell,  Arthur  Burrage 168 

Ballam,  Mary  F 175 

Forrest,  Olla  565 

Patton,  Florence  582 

LTnderwood,  John  H .' 590 

Phillips,  David  L 605 

Taylor,  Prof.  Graham 667 


PANDERING: 

Testimony. 

M , Mrs.  Z, 

F , G 

B , E 

T , E 

Frank,  H.  R 

O , A 

N — , J 


Brooks,  Miss  Virginia  . 
Farwell,  Arthur  Burrage 
Buzzell,  Miss  Belle 


....  135 
....  137 
. ...  139 
. ...  140 
. ...  149 
....  151 
. ...  155 
....  157 
. . . . 160 
. . . . 168 
172,  173 


968 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


(Pandering — Continued) 

Ballam,  Mary  M 176 

M , P 190’ 

W , L 230 

J , P,  293 

Foster,  Ardeen  350 

Finch,  G.  Stanley 353 

Rubens,  Walter  J 376,  377 

Bower,  Wililma  F 510 

Williams,  Rev.  Elmer 522 

PROSTITUTION; 

Professional  prostitutes,  testimony  of. 

H , 1 215 

Hall,  Georgia 327 

Hartman,  Bertha  334 

C , M 334 

Mueller,  Sarah  529 

Forrest,  Olla 563 

Patton,  Florence  582 

Profits  of. 

M , R 212 

Hall,  Georgia  327 

C , M 332 

Mueller,  Sarah  531 

PUBLIC  HEARINGS  HELD  BY  THE  COMMITTEE: 

At  Chicago — 

Session  I 131 

Session  II  149 

Session  HI  167 

Session  I\'  177 

Session  V 195 

Session  VI  217 

Session  VII  233 

Session  VIII  249 

Session  XII  375 

Session  XIII  407 

Session  XIV  421 

Session  XV  423 

Session  XVI  443 

Session  XVII  469 

Session  XVIII  487 

Session  XIX  503 

Session  XX  529 

Session  XXIV 659 

Session  XXV 679 

Session  XXVI 711 

Session  XXVII 739 

Session  XXVIII 769 

At  Springfield — 

Session  XXI  559 

Session  XXII  603 

Session  XXIII  633 

At  \\’ashington — 

Session  XI  '. 347 

At  Peoria — 

Session  IX  281 

Session  X 309 

At  Alton — 

Session  XXIX  789 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


969 


SOCIAL  DISEASES — -Testimony  and  statistics: 

Woodward,  Dr.  William  G 367 

Folkner,  Dr.  Elnora  C 372 

(See  also  chapter  on  Prevalence  of  Social  Diseases,  p.  875.) 

VICE,  EXPERIENCES  WITH: 

Personal  testimony  of  principals: 

H , R 131 

F , G : . . . 137 

B , E 139 

T ^ , E 140 

O , A 151 

M , J 155 

L , F 163 

M , P 190 

B , P . 210 

R , A 210 

M , R 211 

R , R 214 

C , L 213 

H , 1 215 

, L 230 

S , C 291 

T , P 293 

S , R 330 

C- , M 332 

B , G 336 

D , L 341 

S , M 423 

As  told  to  employers  and  recounted  by  them  in  testimo^^^ 

Block,  Henry  C 299 

Rubens,  Walter  J 376 

Peterson,  Carrie  408 

As  told  by  other  observers  and  investigators. 

Barrett,  Robert  S 370 

Tollman,  George 446 

Williams,  Rev.  Elmer 520 

WELFARE  INSTITUTIONS  AND  ORGANIZATIONS: 

Their  purposes,  operation  and  conduct. 

Collins,  Mrs.  Mary 164 

Farwell,  Arthur  Burrage 168 

WAGES — Paid  to  Girl  Workers: 

In  retail  stores  and  mall  order  houses. 

Employes’  testimony. 

Benson,  Eleanor 187 

Houck,  Emilv  188 

R , R^ 214 

S , C 292 

Barnes,  Mary 607 

Kane,  Sylvia 610 

]\IcGill,  Agnes  614 

Briggs,  Pearl  618 

Emplo5fers’  testimony. 

Rosenwald,  Julius  177,  184 

Miller,  George  H 178 

Rosenwald,  Lessing  J 184 

Mandel,  Edwin  F 195 

Dunne,  Peter  J 197 

Simpson,  James 202 

Shayne,  Roy 209 


970  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

(Wages — In  retail  stores  and  mail-order  houses — Continued) 

Hillman,  Edward  217 

Lytton,  George 237 

Thorne,  Wm.  C 249 

Pirie,  John  T 261 

Lehmann,  Edward  J 266 

Ellinger,  Albert  274 

Persons,  W.  E 281,  319 

Young,  Frank  J 283 

Heidrick,  Edw.  C 286 

Block,  Henry  C 295 

Greer,  Thomas  L 311 

Bush,  Frank 313 

Givins,  H.  H 321 

Roos,  W.  J 322 

Gasque,  C.  W 693 

Steele,  L.  R 695 

Harris,  Abraham 763 

Gates,  W.  C 796 

Other  witnesses. 

Kahn,  Mrs.  Adolph  360 

Pierce,  Julian  360 

Ransome,  Mrs.  Virginia 361 

In  domestic  service: 

Employes’  testimony. 

B , G 339 

In  manufacturing  industries: 

Employes’  testimony. 

B , P 210 

M , R 211 

D , L 341 

Berenson,  Esther  386 

Davidowitz,  Mary 387 

Schultz,  Rebecca 392 

Schwartz,  Sarah  394 

Siegel,  Mrs 400 

Kaplan,  Libby  401 

Fox,  Lizzie 402 

Rosini,  Helen 404 

Kaplan,  Anna 410 

Barnes,  Mary 607 

Kane,  Sylvia 612 

McGill,  Agnes  615 

Briggs,  Pearl  619 

Ehlert,  Ella  635 

Patters,  Viola  635 

Balter,  Margaret  635 

IMorris,  Della 637 

IMalinski.  Emma  638 

Fromm,  Hadia 638 

Tacoma,  Regina  640 

Casper,  Mary 641 

Troth,  Mary 643 

Holtzman,  Jennie  645 

Fh'iin,  Lucille  646 

Young,  Anna  648 

Lee,  Margaret  649 

Employers’  testimony. 

Rubens,  Walter  J 375 

Goldberg,  Hj'man 389 

Nathan,  Louis  397 

Peterson,  Carrie  407 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


971 


(Wages — In  manufacturing  industries — Continued) 

Riesenfield,  Victor  

Cable,  George  

Derby,  Charles  W' 

Coates,  Fred  R 

Alexander,  Wm 

Jones,  E.  C 

Swift,  Louis  F 

Harding,  M.  D 

Charles,  C.  L 

Other  testimony. 

Harvey,  Willis  E 

In  telephone  work: 

Employes’  testimony. 

C , L 

S , R 

In  laundries: 

Employes’  testimony. 

R , A 


C , M 

B- , G 

Pierce,  Julian 

Employers’  testimony. 

Munger,  George  E 

In  theatrical  work: 

Employes’  testimony. 

Fullerton,  Jeanette  

In  hotels  and  restaurants: 

Employes’  testimony. 

Tollman,  George 

M , M 

Employers’  testimony: 

Frank,  Abe  

Stimpson,  O.  B 

Rosseau,  Jacque 

In  institutions  as  nurses  and  attendants: 

Cohn,  Dr.  Eugene 

In  educational  work: 

Young,  Mrs.  Ella  Flagg 

Judson,  Dr.  Harry  Pratt. 

Harris,  Dr.  A.  W 


411 

411 

621 

629 

650 

659 

698 

701 

706 


661 


213 

331 


210 

294 

332 

337 

360 

681 


309 


....  443 
. ...  579 

. ...  481 
. . . . 484 

674,  679 

....  326 

....  754 
. . . . 769 
....  778 


WAGES: 

Low  Wages,  their  responsibility  for  vice. 


Wage-earners’  testimonj^ 

S , R 331 

C , M 334 

Hartman,  Bertha  336 

D , L 343 

B , G 340 

Forrest,  Olla  564 

Patton,  Florence 585 

Other  witnesses’  testimony. 

Kuch,  Henry  G 343 

Foster,  Ardeen  350 

Finch,  G.  Stanley 355 

Hopkins,  Mrs.  Archibald 357 

Wiley,  Mrs.  Harvey  W 362 

Barrett,  Robert  S 369 

Brittain,  Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe 434,  466 

Bowen,  Mrs.  Louise 454 


972  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

(Wages — Low  wages,  their  responsibility  for  vice — Continued) 

Bower,  Wm.  F 509 

Williams,  Rev.  Elmer 520 

Howse,  E.  J 525 

Taylor,  Prof.  Graham 656 

Swift,  Louis  F 699 

Young,  Mrs.  Ella  Flagg 754 

Minimum  Wage,  The. 

Kahn,  Mrs.  Adolph  359 

Taylor,  Prof.  Graham 670 

Harding,  M.  D 703 

Young,  Mrs.  Ella  Flagg 752 

For  Girl  VVorkers — the  lowest  amount  upon  which  a self-de- 
pendent girl  or  woman  can  feed,  clothe  and  maintain  herself  in 
ordinary  comfort  for  one  week — • 

As  estimated  by  girl  workers. 

C , L 214 

S , C 292 

J , P 293 

S , R 331 

C , M 334 

B , G 340 

D L 343 

Kaplan,  Libby.. 402 

Morris,  Della 637 

As  estimated  by  employers: 

Rosenwald,  Julius 185 

Simpson,  James 204 

Hillman,  Edward 219 

Simpson,  James 233 

Lytton,  George  237 

Thorne,  Wm.  C 251 

Pirie,  John  T 263 

Lehmann,  Edward  J 267 

Ellinger,  Albert 276 

Young,  Frank  J 284 

Heidrick,  Edward  C 291 

Block,  Henry  C 297,  303 

Greer,  Thomas  L 313 

Bergner,  P.  A 318 

Bush,  Frank 318 

Givins,  H.  H .• 321 

Roos,  W.  J 325 

Kuch,  Henry  G 346 

Nathan,  Louis  398 

Riesenfield,  Victor  414 

Munger,  George  E 686 

Steele,  L.  R 698 

Swift,  Louis  F 699 

Charles,  C.  L 709 

Gates,  W.  C 796 

As  estimated  by  other  witnesses: 

Ballam,  Mary  F 176 

Glenn,  John  M 226 

Hopkins,  Mrs.  Archibald 357 

Kahn,  Mrs.  Adolph 360 

Ransome,  Mrs.  Virginia 362 

Neligh,  Mrs.  Clara 363 

Wiley,  Mrs.  Harvey  W 363 

Woodward,  Dr.  Wm.  G 366,  379 

Rubens,  W^alter  J 385 

Bowen,  Mrs.  Louise 455 

Schepp,  John  S 561 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


973 


(Wages — Alinimum,  The — Continued) 

For  Family  Support; 

For  Married  Men — the  lowest  weekly  wage  upon  which  a married 
man  can  support  himself  and  a family — • 

As  estimated  by  wage-earners. 

Siegel,  Mrs 401 

Tollman,  George  447 

As  estimated  by  employers. 

Reynolds,  George  M 711 

Simpson,  James 713 

Lehmann,  Edward  J 719,  764 

Forgan,  David  R 722 

Rosenwald,  Julius 724 

Pirie,  John  T 732 

Mitchell,  John  J 734 

Robinson,  Theo.  W 739 

Blair,  Henry  A 747 

Forgan,  James  B 755 

Basch,  Joseph  L 758 

Harris,  Abraham 763 

Abbott,  Wm.  T 776,  783 

Busby,  Leonard  A 784 

As  estimated  by  other  witnesses. 

Young,  Mrs.  Ella  Elagg 749 

Tudson,  Prof.  Harry 769 

Harris,  Prof.  A.  W 778 

Campbell,  E.  E 799 

WITNESSES  EXAMINED  BY  THE  COMMITTEE; 

Employers  and  employes’  executives. 

Abbott,  Wm.  T.,  Vice-Pres.,  Central  Trust  Co.  of  Illinois 776,  783 

Alexander,  Wm.,  Foreman,  International  Shoe  Co 650 

Anthony,  J.  R.,  Emporium-World  Millinery  Store 421 

Basch,  Joseph,  Manager,  Siegel,  Cooper  & Co 240,  758 

Bergner,  P.  A.,  Pres.,  P.  A.  Bergner  & Co 313 

Bezark,  Lemuel,  Leslie  Millinery  Co 421 

Blair,  Henry  A.,  Chairman  Board  of  Directors,  Chicago  Railways..  747 

Bleeks,  Tolbert  T.,  Valentine  Dressmaking  School 421 

Block,  Carl,  Sec’y,  Schipper  & Block 294 

Block,  Henry  C.,  Pres.,  Schipper  & Block 294 

Bosley,  D.  S.,  Jenkins  & Co 421 

Bush,  Frank,  Sec’y,  P.  A.  Bergner  & Co 313 

Burnham,  E.,  E.  Burnham  & Co 421 

Busby,  Leonard,  Mgr.,  Chicago  City  Railways 784 

Cable,  George,  Cashier,  Rosenwald  & Weil 411 

Charles,  C.  L.,  Asst.  Supt.,  Morris  & Co 707 

Coates,  Fred  R.,  Watch  Material  Manufacturer 629 

Derby,  Chas.  W.,  Supt.,  International  Shoe  Co 621 

Dunne,  Peter  J.,  Supt.,  Mandel  Brothers 195 

Ellinger,  Albert,  Mgr.,  Boston  Store 274 

Forgan,  David  R.,  Pres.,  National  City  Bank 722 

Forgan,  James  B.,  Pres.,  First  National  Bank 755 

Frank,  Abe.,  Mgr.,  Rector’s  Restaurant 478 

Gasque,  C.  W.,  Auditor,  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Co 693 

Gates,  W.  C.,  Dry  Goods  Merchant 796 

Givins,  H.  H.,  Garment  Manufacturer 321 

Glenn,  John  M.,  Sec’y,  Illinois  Manufacturers’  Association 223 

Goldberg,  Hyman,  Millinery  Manufacturer 389 

Greer,  Thomas  L.,  Mgr.,  Clark  & Co 311 

Griesman,  D.  A.,  Mgr.,  Palmers  Cloak  Store 421 

Griswold,  C.  C.,  Mgr.,  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Co.,  Chicago 421 

Harding,  M.  D.,  Supt.,  Armour  & Co 701 

Harris,  Abraham,  Pres.,  Chicago  Housewrecking  Co 763 


974 


Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 


(Witnesses — Employers  and  employes’  executives — Continued) 


Heidrick,  Edw.  C.,  Cordage  Manufacturer 286 

Heidrick,  Richard,  Cordage  Manufacturer 286 

Hillman,  Edward,  Pres.,  Hillman  & Co 217 

Jones,  E.  C.,  Broom  Manufacturer 659 

Kesner,  A.  L.,  Mgr.,  Evan  Lloyd  & Co 421 

Komiss,  David,  Mgr.,  Stanley,  Williams  & Co 421 

Kuch,  Henry  Ci.,  Steuben  & Kuch,  Can  Manufacturers 343 

Kupper,  Harry,  Mgr.,  Model  Cloak  Store 421 

Lehmann,  Edw.  J.,  Pres.,  The  Fair 265,  719,  764 

Lytton,  George,  Vice-Pres.,  The  Hub 236 

Mandel,  Edwin  F.,  Pres.,  Mandel  Brothers 195 

Melando,  Salvatore,  Mgr.,  B.  F.  Rubel  & Co 421 

Miller,  D.  F.,  Mgr.,  Cutler  Shoe  Co 421 

Miller,  Geo.  H.,  Emp.  Mgr.,  Sears  Roebuck  & Co 178 

Mitchell,  John  J.,  Pres.,  Illinois  Trust  & Savings  Bank 734 

Munger,  Geo.  E.,  Pres.,  Monger’s  Laundry  Co 681 

Nathan,  Louis,  Pres.,  Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co 397 

Persons,  W.  E.,  Mgr.,  Larkin  & Co 281,  319 

Pirie,  John  T.,  Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Co 260,  732 

Reynolds,  George  M.,  Pres.,  Cont.  & Commercial  Nat.  Bank 711 

Rich,  A1  H.,  Mgr.,  A.  Bishop  & Co.‘. 421 

Riesenfield,  Victor,  Supt.,  Rosenwald  & A’eil 411 

Robinson,  Theo.  W.,  Vice-Pres.,  Illinois  Steel  Co 739 

Roos,  W.  J.,  Mgr.,  Putnam’s  5 & 10c  Store 322 

Rosenwald,  Julius,  Pres.,  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co 177,  184,  724 

Rosenwald,  Lessing  J.,  Dept.  Mgr.,  Sears,  Roebuck  & Co 184 

Rosseau,  Jacque,  Concessionaire 674,  678 

Rubens,  Walter  J.,  Pres.,  Rubens  & Alarble,  ^Manufacturers 375 

Schnadig,  Julius  J.,  Friend’s  Cloak  Store 421 

Schwab,  Henry  C.,  Abce-Pres.,  A.  M.  Rothschild  & Co 271 

Shayne,  Roy,  Pres.,  John  T.  Shaj-ne  & Co 209 

Simon,  Louis  F.,  A'lgr.,  Maurice  Rothschild 421 

Simpson,  James,  Vice-Pres.,  Marshall  Field  & Co 202,  204,  233,  713 

Steele,  L.  R.,  Mgr.,  Knox  5 & 10c  Store 695 

Stevens,  Thomas  A.,  Chas.  A.  Stevens  & Bros 421 

Stimpson,  O.  B.,  Mgr.,  The  States  Restaurant 484 

Swift,  Louis  F.,  Pres.,  Swift  & Co 698 

Thorne,  Wiliam  C.,  Vice-Pres.,  Montgomery  Ward  & Co 2-19 

Vierbuchen,  W.  V.,  Mgr.,  Palmer  House 421 

Young,  Frank  J.,  Mgr.,  F.  W.  Woolworth  & Co.,  Peoria 283,  321 


Employing  firms  and  cornorations  wFose  rfiPrials  or  executives  were 
examined  as  witnesses  before  the  Committee: 


Armour  & Company,  Packers.  Chicago,  M.  D.  Harding,  Supt 

Bergner,  P.  A.,  & (To.,  General  ^Merchandise,  Peoria,  P.  .-V.  Bergner, 

Pres.,  Frank  Bush,  Sec’y 

Bishop,  A.  & Co.,  Retail  Hats  and  Furs,  Chicago,  A\  H.  Rich 

Boston  Store,  General  Merchandise.  Chicago,  Albert  Ellinger,  Mgr. 

Burnham,  E.  & Co.,  Hair  Goods  Mfrs.,  E.  Burnham.  Pres 

Carson,  Pirie,  Scott  & Co.,  General  Merchandise,  Chicago.  John  T. 

Pirie  •; -60. 

Central  Trust  Co.  of  Illinois,  Bankers,  Chicago,  M'illiam  T.  Abbojt, 

Vice-Pres M6, 

Chicago  House  Wrecking  Co.,  IMail  Order,  Chicago,  Abraham  Har- 
ris, Pres 

Chicago  Railways  Co.,  Street  Railway,  Chicago,  Henry  A.  Blair. 

Chairman  Board  of  Directors 

Leonard  A.  Busby,  klgr 

Clark  & Co.,  Dry  (Joods,  Peoria,  Thomas  L.  Greer,  Mgr 

Coates,  Fred  R.,  Mfr.  Watch  Materials,  Springfield. 

Continental  & Commercial  National  Bank,  Chicago,  George  iM. 

Reynolds,  Pres 

Cutler  Shoe  Co.,  Retail  Shoes,  Chicago,  D.  F.  Miller,  Mgr 


701 

313 

421 

274 

421 

732 

783 


763 


747 

784 

311 

629 

711 

421 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


975 


(Witnesses — Employing  firms  and  corporations — Conlinited) 

Emporium-World,  Retail  Millinery,  J.  R.  Anthony,  Mgr 421 

Fair,  The,  General  Merchandise,  Chicago,  Edward  J.  Lehmann, 


Field,  Marshall,  & Co.,  General  Merchandise,  Chicago,  James  Simp- 


First  National  Bank,  Chicago,  James  B.  Forgan,  Pres 755 

Friend’s  Cloak  Store,  Chicago,  Julius  J.  Schnadig,  Mgr 421 

Gates,  ^V.  C.,  Retail  Dry  Goods,  Alton 796 

Givins,  H.  H.,  Garment  Mfr.,  Peoria 321 

Goldberg,  Hyman,  Millinery  Mfr.,  Chicago 389 

Heidrick,  E.  C.  & Co.,  Cordage  Mfrs.,  Peoria,  Edward  C.  Heidrick, 

Pres.;  Richard  Heidrick 286 

Hillman  & Co.,  General  Merchandise,  Chicago,  Edward  Hillman, 

Pres 217 

Hub,  The,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  George  Lytton,  Vice-Pres . . . . 236 
Illinois  Manufacturers’  Association,  Chicago,  John  M.  Glenn,  Sec’y.  223 
Illinois  Steel  Co.,  IManufacturers,  Chicago,  Theo.  ^V.  Robinson, 

A’ice-Pres 739 

Illinois  Trust  & Savings  Bank,  Chicago,  John  J.  Mitchell,  Pres 734 

International  Shoe  Co.,  Shoe  Mfrs.,  Springfield,  Charles  W.  Derby, 

Supt 650 

Wm.  Alexander,  foreman 621 

Jenkins  & Co.,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  D.  S.  Bosley 421 

Jones,  E.  C.,  Broom  Mfr.,  Chicago 659 

Knox  5 and  10c  Store,  Retailers,  Chicago,  L.  R.  Steele,  Mgr 695 

Larkin  & Co.,  Mail  Order,  Peoria,  W.  E.  Persons,  Mgr,. 281,  319 

Leslie  Millinery  Co.,  Retailers,  Chicago,  Lemuel  Bezark 421 

Lloyd,  Evan,  & Co.,  General  Mdse.,  Chicago,  A.  L.  Kesner,  Mgr..  ..  421 
Mandel  Brothers,  Gleneral  Mdse.,  Chicago,  Edwin  F.  Mandel,  Pres., 


Model  Cloak  Store,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  Harry  Kupper,  Mgr..  421 
Morris  & Compan}',  Packers,  Chicago,  C.  L.  Charles,  Asst.  Supt.  . . . 707 
Munger’s  Laundry  Co.,  Launderers,  Chicago,  George  E.  Munger, 

Pres 681 

Nathan  & Grossman  Mfg.  Co.,  Garment  Mfrs.,  Chicago,  Louis  Na- 
than, Pres 397 

National  Citj^  Bank,  Chicago,  David  R.  Forgan,  Pres 722 

Palmer’s  Cloak  Store,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  D.  A.  Griesman, 

Mgr 421 

Putnam’s  5 and  10c  Store,  Retailers,  Peoria,  W.  J.  Ross,  Mgr 322 

Rector’s  Restaurant,  Chicago,  Abe  Frank,  Mgr 478 

Rosenwald  & Weil,  Clothing  Mfrs.,  Chicago,  Victor  Riesenfeld, 

Supt.,  George  Cable,  Cashier 411 

Rosseau,  Jacque.  Concessionaire.  Chicago 647,  678 

Rothschild,  A.  M.,  & Co.,  General  Mdse.,  Chicago,  Henry  C.  Schwab, 

Vice-Pres r 271 

Rothschild,  Maurice,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  Louis  F.  Simon, 

Mgr 421 

Rubel,  B.  F.,  & Co.,  Retail  Confectioners,  Chicago,  Salvatore  Me- 

lando,  Mgr 421 

Rubens  & Marble,  Underwear  Mfrs.,  Chicago,  Walter  J.  Rubens, 

Pres 325 

Schipper  & Block,  General  Mdse.,  Peoria,  Henry  C.  Block,  Pres., 


Sears,  Roebuck  & Co.,  Mail  Order,  Chicago,  Julius  Rosenwald, 


Lessing  J.  Rosenwald,  Dept.  Mgr 184 

George  H.  Miller,  Employment  Mgr 178 

Shayne,  John  T.  & Co.,  Retail  Furs,  Chicago,  Roy  Shayne,  Pres. . . . 209 
Siegel,  Cooper  & Co.,  General  Mdse.,  Chicago,  Joseph  Basch,  Mgr. 
240,  758 


976  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 

(Witnesses — Employing  firms  and  corporations — Continued) 

Stanley,  Williams  & Co.,  Retail  Clothing,  Chicago,  David  Komiss, 

Mgr 421 

States  Restaurant,  Chicago,  O.  B.  Stimpson,  Mgr 484 

Steuben  & Kuch,  Can  Mfrs.,  Peoria,  H.  G.  Kuch 343 

Stevens,  Charles  A.,  & Bros.,  General  Mdse.,  Chicago,  Thomas  A. 

Stevens  421 

Swift  & Co.,  Packers,  Chicago,  Louis  F.  Swift,  Pres 698 

Valentine  Dressmaking  School,  Chicago,  Tolbert  T.  Bleeks 421 

W’ard,  Montgomery,  & Co.,  Mail  Order,  Chicago,  W.  C.  Thorne, 

Vice-Pres 249 

Woolworth,  F.  W.,  & Co.,  Retail  Mdse.,  Chicago,  C.  C.  Griswold, 

Mgr 421 

C.  W.  Gasque,  Auditor 693 

Woolworth,  F.  W.,  & Co.,  Retail  Mdse.,  Peoria,  Frank  J.  Young, 

Mgr 283,  321 

Wit’''<',‘^ses  oth^r  than  employers: 

Girl  Wage  Workers: 

ualLtr,  -iia.  garei  635,  647 

Barnes,  Mary  607 

Benson,  Eleanor  187 

Berenson,  Esther  386 

Brennan,  Margaret  633,  648 

Briggs,  Pearl  618 

Caspar,  Mary  641 

Davidowitz,  Mary^  ■.  . 387 

Ehlert,  Ella 635 

Flynn,  Lucille  646 

Fox,  Lizzie  402 

Fromm,  Hadia 638 

Holtzmann,  Jennie  645 

Houck,  Emily  188 

Kane,  Sylvia  610 

Kaplan,  Anna  410 

Kaplan,  Lizzie  401 

Lee,  Margaret  649 

Malinski,  Emma  638 

McGill,  Agnes  • 614 

Morris,  Mrs.  Della 637,  640 

Patters,  Viola 634 

Peterson,  Carrie  407 

Rosini,  Helen 404 

S R 330 

S C 291 

Schultz,  Rebecca  392 

Schwartz,  Sarah  394 

Siegel,  Mrs 400 

Tacoma,  Regina T 640 

Troth,  Marie  643 

Young,  Anna  648 

Federal,  state,  county  and  municipal  ofificials  and  employes: 

Beall,  Hon.  Edmond  F 803 

Bowler,  Wm.  F 509 

Clybourn,  Grace  569,  o77 

Coan,  M.  Blair 47c 

Cohn,  Dr.  Eugene 326 

DeMuth,  Mrs.  Sophia 802 

Farleyq  Michael  J 476 

Finch,  G.  Stanley 353 

Fullerton,  Jeanette  • 309 

Gillespie,  Mrs.  Rose 805 

Harding,  John  J 475 

Hoffman,  Peter 463 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses 


977 


(Witnesses — Continued) 

Hollinberger,  J.  Thomas 356 

Howse,  E.  J 524 

Josaphare,  Maude  J 481 

Long,  Mrs.  Margaret 551 

Mullen,  Joseph  J 790 

O’Hara,  Hon.  Barratt 230 

Schepp,  Hon.  John  S 559 

Trick,  C.  F 790 

Underwood,  John  H 586 

Officers,  representatives  and  employes  of  various  unofficial  organizations 
devoted  to  investigation  of  social  problems  and  the  promotion  of 
social  welfare,  as  well  as  individuals  engaged  in  such  work. 

Adams,  Susan  B 142 

Aldrich,  Mrs.  Alice  Phillips 144 

Ballam,  Mary  F 175 

Barrett,  Robert  S 369 

Birney,  Mrs.  A.  A 368 

Bowen,  Mrs.  Louise 452 

Bowler,  William  F 509 

Brittain,  Mrs.  Gertrude  Howe 430,  459,  466 

Brooks,  Miss  Virginia  (Mrs.  C.  Washburne) 160 

Buzzell,  Miss  Belle 173 

Collins,  Mrs.  Mary 164 

Dunn,  William  H 169 

Edgar,  Maxwell  688 

Farwell,  Arthur  Burrage 168 

Folkner,  Dr.  Elnora  C 372 

Foster,  Ardeen  350 

Frank,  H.  R , 149 

Hill,  Hon.  Robert  P 364 

Hopkins,  Mrs.  Archibald 357 

Kahn,  Mrs.  Adolph 358 

Neligh,  Mrs.  Clara 363 

Pierce,  Julian 360 

Ransome,  Mrs.  Virginia 361 

Schell,  Mrs.  Josephine 145 

Taylor,  Prof.  Graham 664 

Wiley,  Mrs.  Harvey  W 362 

Wilkinson,  Mrs.  Anna  J 794 

Woodward,  Dr.  William  G 365 

Educators : 

Harris,  Dr.  Abraham  W 778 

Judson,  Dr.  Harry  Pratt 769 

Young,  Mrs.  Ella  Flagg 749 

Physicians : 

Cohn,  Dr.  Eugene 326 

Folkner,  Dr.  Elnora  C 372 

Pfeiffenberger,  Dr.  Mather 796 

Woodward,  Dr.  William  G 365 

Clergymen : 

Golden,  Rev.  John  R 599 

Williams,  Rev.  Elmer 520 

Labor  union  representatives: 

Coleman,  John  805 

Harvey,  Willis  E 661 

Theatrical  employes  and  professional  entertainers: 

C , Mr.  and  Mrs.  W 540 

Ferrari,  Martin  477 

H , Marie  543 

H , H 481 


978  Report  of  the  Illinois  Senate  Vice  Committee 
(Witnesses — Continued  ) 

J , E 542 

L , A 542 

“'Natalie”  476 

W , E 481 

W , John  543 

Wilson,  George  H 485 

Wilson,  Dora  485 

Saloon,  cafe  and  restaurant  proprietors,  employes  and  patrons: 

Garvin,  Jack 469,  474 

Field,  Ed 544 

Fozzo,  R 510 

Gregg,  C 483 

G , L 472 

Jones,  Roy  503 

Mueller,  H.  H 473 

Novak,  Robert  C 448 

Richter,  Charles  M 483 

S , H.  575 

Shemberg,  William  516 

T — , Mrs.  J.  D 471 

Dance  hall  owmers,  managers  and  employes: 

Bassett,  Walter  490 

Bement,  Frank  W 487 

Johnson,  Godfrey  496 

McGuire,  Frank  T 493 

Olson,  Frank  554 

Phelps,  R.  B 546 

Schoen,  William  J 514 

Yondorf,  August  437 

Hotel  owners,  proprietors,  employes,  guests  and  owners  of  property 
occupied  by  hotels: 

H , Marie  543 

Hardin,  Fred  H 538 

T , E 542 

Little,  G.  J 595 

L , A 542 

M , M 579 

M , J 573 

McHenry,  E.  L 533 

Phillips,  David  L 604 

Tollman,  George  443 

Venable,  Mr.  and  Mrs.  C.  V 566,  603 

W , John  543 

Wineteer,  Charles  G 592 

Newspaper  publishers  and  representatives: 

Campbell,  E.  E ^ 798 

Cousley,  Paul  B 801 

McAdams,  John  799 

Proprietors  of  resorts  and  erring  women: 

B , E 139 

B , G 336 

B , P 210 

C , L 212 

C , U 332 

D , L 341 

F , G 137 

Forrest,  Olla  363 

Hall,  Georgia 327 

Hartman,  Bertha  334 

H— , R 131 

M , R 211 


Index  to  Testimony  and  Witnesses  979 

( Witnesses — Continued) 

Mueller,  Sarah 529 

Patton,  Florence  582 

' R , R 214 

R , A 210 

S , C 291 

S , M 423 

S , R 330 

Women  and  girls  who  escaped  or  reformed: 

F , E 157 

J . P 293 

L , F 163 

M , J 155 

M , Mrs.  P 190 

M , Mrs.  Z 135 

O , A 151 

T , E 140 


:^^TED  BY  ATJTHOEITY  OF  THE  STATE  OF  ILLINOK 


t 

4 


